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Next entry: Doctor who saved many women’s lives murdered Previous entry: Sex With Ducks

Baldwin, and a potential new approach to the severely embittered misogynist problem

Until I saw this blog post, I didn’t realize that Alec Baldwin had made a rather unfunny and bizarre joke about buying a Filipina or Russian mail order brideHis apology for it is focused on getting you to give money to a Christian sex trafficking group, which of course sounds like the worst idea in the world since many of those groups actually think blocking access to contraception and education will help their cause.

What I find fascinating about the whole thing is that despite his claims that it’s a joke, he went there pretty much as soon as Letterman gave him a chance.  Apparently, if you go MRA, you have to buy in completely.  There’s no half measures, like simply blaming your wife because your kids don’t love it when you scream at them and call them names like “pig”.  No, you have to start obsessing over how feminism has “ruined” American women, and fantasizing openly about a never-never foreign land where bitches know their place, don’t talk smack, and accept being treated like combination maids/womb factories with levels of gratitude usually reserved for winning the lottery.  No amount of good fortune, money, or fame will slow down a man’s journey towards a place where he thinks he’s upsetting evil uppity American bitches by threatening to take himself off the market and marry a woman from his fantasy never-never land where women love oppression.  (MRAs like to pretend that it’s love of oppression, but it’s more like severely restricted choices in play.)  Of course, if you’ve heard the tape of Baldwin screaming at his daughter, then you can’t help but hope that he knows that buying a wife would do even more harm to his reputation, because god forbid he inflict that asshole on another woman who has severely restricted means of getting out.  It’s obviously too much to ask that he quit winding down the path of escalating misogyny, and instead show a little gratitude towards the woman (Tina Fey) who has given him an opportunity to shine so much on TV and deflect some of the reputation degradation. 

Interesting news for those who’ve seen but don’t really get why MRAs are so crazy and weird: There’s a move towards classifying this sort of severe bitterness as a syndromeHat tip.

The disorder is modeled after post-traumatic stress disorder because it too is a response to a trauma that endures. People with PTSD are left fearful and anxious. Embittered people are left seething for revenge.

“They feel the world has treated them unfairly. It’s one step more complex than anger. They’re angry plus helpless,” says Dr. Michael Linden, a German psychiatrist who named the behavior.

Embittered people are typically good people who have worked hard at something important, such as a job, relationship or activity, Linden says. When something unexpectedly awful happens—they don’t get the promotion, their spouse files for divorce or they fail to make the Olympic team—a profound sense of injustice overtakes them. Instead of dealing with the loss with the help of family and friends, they cannot let go of the feeling of being victimized. Almost immediately after the traumatic event, they become angry, pessimistic, aggressive, hopeless haters.


As the Alec Baldwin example shows, this sort of irrational bitterness can start to take over a person’s life until they’re not functioning well anymore—-Baldwin is putting his career in jeopardy with this shit, and even as he gets more loudly misogynist, he is leaning on the glow from working on a female-produced and written show to keep from falling into the career abyss of irredeemable assholes, where Ted Nugent and his own brother Stephen Baldwin have fallen.  But you definitely see this situation with other MRAs, and in fact the fantasy of the submissive “foreign bride” (Which is the official term MRAs try to use when talking to feminists, in a weak attempt to blur the difference between mail order bride companies and just happening to meet and fall in love with someone of another nationality. But as the Baldwin joke shows, when MRAs feel like they’re in like-minded company, the old-fashioned terminology “mail order bride” comes right out.)  has so much power precisely because the crippling bitterness is interfering with their social lives and their ability to get along with women at all.  And so of course they’re going to spend time believing there’s a way to get the benefits of having a woman in their lives without having to go through the trouble of treating her like a real person. 

What’s interesting is the article also suggests that an all-consuming obsession with revenge is one of the major features of the syndrome.  Again, I can’t help but think about how many MRAs spend unbelievable amounts of money and years of their lives suing their ex-wives.  And how the organized MRA movement is always coming up with new and inventive excuses to sue your ex-wife.  The enthusiasm for demanding itemized receipts for what child support was spent on is a good example of something that a man falls back on when he’s exhausted all avenues of torturing his ex-wife by constantly suing to have child support and visitation reworked. 

Of course, it’s hard for those of us who deal with MRAs to muster up compassion, because their bitterness comes directly from having massive entitlement issues in the first place.  If they just got it in their heads that they aren’t entitled to treat women like crap, and really embraced the belief that women are human beings instead of helpmeets put here to provide sexual and domestic service without complaint or compensation, then they wouldn’t be so bitter, right?  True, but it seems to me that intervention needs to come long before the divorce that sends them into a spiral of embittered misogynist ranting, and powerful fantasies of buying compliant women.  The common element throughout MRA narratives is that they never even saw the divorce crumbling, and they feel like they had something taken from them without even getting a chance to make it right.  I do believe that they feel this way, though I imagine that objectively there were tons of warning signs, but they just didn’t notice these because their incredible sense of entitlement keeps them from even considering the possibility that they have to listen to their wives.  So I have no doubt that when the divorce comes, it really does feel like a surprise, and therefore the pain that sends these men hurtling towards unmanageable levels of bitterness is quite real.  Sure, their pain is unjust. They think they’re superior and can’t handle it when others don’t play along with that delusion. 

But that doesn’t make it less real.  It’s a classic example of how Patriarchy Hurts Men, Too—-it can, in many cases, raise expectations of being treated as a superior and authority so high that when you don’t get that respect, it can be devastating.  That specific sort of distress probably does need a specific mental health response.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:59 AM • (78) Comments

It’s obviously too much to ask that he quit winding down the path of escalating misogyny, and instead show a little gratitude towards the woman (Tina Fey) who has given him an opportunity to shine so much on TV and deflect some of the reputation degradation.

At this point, I almost wonder if that’s part of the problem.  He didn’t manfully rescue his own career—Fey wrote a great part for him and he ran with it.  Plus, of course, she’s the executive producer and could have his ass fired if she wants.  After the “pig” rant, he probably had to go into a very tense meeting with Fey, Lorne Michaels, and a few network executives to explain why he shouldn’t be fired.  So now a woman is holding his employment over his head, employment that was jeopardized (in his mind) by his ex-wife.  They’re all conspiring against him!!!1!!11!

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  05/31  at  12:20 PM

What therapy do you give the pathologically bitter?  Listening to the bitching is enabling the disorder.  Does the therapist just respond to everything with a gentle “dude, let it go” until it sinks in.

Comment #2: semi_factual  on  05/31  at  12:25 PM

It means “men’s rights activist”.  That’s what they call themselves.  Most of them are middle-aged men who are racked with bitterness over a divorce that they cannot get over.  To add to a lot of their problems, child and spousal abuse within the marriage means that the judge is merciless, and they won’t accept that they made the bed they’re sleeping in.

MRA obsessions include:

*The belief that rape, domestic violence, and child abuse are much rarer than they are
*The concurrent belief that women make up domestic violence, rape, and child abuse in order to screw men over.
*When they do admit that domestic violence occurs, they claim women do it equally.  I believe that what they’re trying to do is rewrite their own or their friends’ histories, so that a female partner’s attempts at self-defense are treated like “equal” violence.
*They want mandatory joint custody, which they believe is the best route to what’s probably their main goal, which is
*The complete elimination of child support.  You know you’re dealing with an MRA when a dude is ranting about the evils of child support, particularly if he thinks that women who receive it are living some high life strictly because of it, and he totally ignores the fact that most child support payments fall well below half of what it takes to raise the child in question.
*MRAs are obsessed with the belief in female deceptiveness.  Most of them are fanatic believers in the theory that huge numbers of women try to trick men into impregnating them, so they can get their hands on that gravy train of child support.
*Sometimes they’re also obsessed with other instances of what they consider widespread discrimination against men.  Clubs that offer Ladies Nights, where women get in free but men have to pay cover, are often risking lawsuits from MRAs.
*Additionally, they are fanboys from the mail order bride industry.  You know you’re dealing with an MRA when a guy starts ranting about how American women are out of control, and trying to threaten women by claiming he’s taking himself off the market and marrying a woman from (fill in a country that mail order bride businesses tend to set up shop in).  When Baldwin claimed he was out of date with the Filipina reference, he was nodding to the fact that the trendy country to purchase desperate women from now is Russia.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  12:32 PM

Great. Just great. I don’t believe these guys are ill at all; it’s just going to be a tailor-made defense for all the usual murders these guys are going to commit.  It’ll justify all kinds of shit in their minds once they’re diagnosed, and it’ll stigmatize people who are genuinely mentally ill. These guys are just angry, spoiled rotten, and sexist.

Comment #4: ginmar  on  05/31  at  12:37 PM

I am sharing an anecdote—this is NOT a defense of MRA’s or bitterness, just an explanation of how it could happen that someone “misses warning signs.”

My baby brother dated a girl for four years.  One day, after they were living together but while he still had his own place (which was undergoing massive renovation and was uninhabitable) and while they were on the path to marriage, she kicked him out, but wanted to still date.  When he snooped around he found she had a new boyfriend.

She then informed him that she had been unhappy in the relationship for 2 years, and he had ignored it.  Which, while he can be obtuse, was bullshit.  See, he took her at her word when she said the conversation had reached a place she was comfortable with.  She expected him to push and push and uncover what was really wrong.

I’m not saying everyone has this happen to them, but passive-aggressive behavior is encouraged in women in today’s society—we’re damn well trained for it.  It took me years of therapy to get over mine (and I really AM joyfully over it, hallelujah!).  Now, my brother, being a healthy, well-adjusted person, was upset and bitter for a while, but has moved on with his life.  But someone who was already insecure, needy or lonely (and probably had more than a touch of the passive-aggresive syndrome himself) could then move into the crazy-bitter state.

I think this has such deep roots in our patriarchal culture that I can’t just blame teh menz 100% for this.  Many, many, many things, yes, but for this particular one, I’d give it 70-30.  And I swear, you won’t often hear me say that.

Comment #5: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  12:43 PM

They can be both ill and execrable human beings. Isn’t this a both/and blog rather than an either/or blog?

Comment #6: BlackBloc  on  05/31  at  12:45 PM

Just one quibble:

show a little gratitude towards the woman (Tina Fey) who has given him an opportunity to shine so much on TV and deflect some of the reputation degradation.

You make it sound like she did him a favor and rescued him from a future of Dancing With the Stars and Hollywood Squares, by charitably offering him a role on her show.  He has a producer’s credit on 30 Rock and his character is responsible for a good deal of its ratings success.

Comment #7: pablo  on  05/31  at  12:45 PM

Well, depends on what you think is a mental illness.  Psychologists usually would say that if you’re crippled by a feeling to the point that it starts to interfere with your life, then yes.  I would point out that MRAs are hurting other people, but they’re also hurting themselves.  It’s a lose-lose situation, and that’s fascinating to me.  When you read up on them, the thing that jumps out at you is that their bitterness has put them in a situation where they are spending all sorts of money and time wallowing in their anger over how their marriages fell apart.  They’ll often spend more money trying to terminate child support than they’ll ever have to pay in child support.  That’s irrational.  They dump all this money on mail order bride services, and go to Russia to meet women, and they have to hang up their dignity and act pathetic, because their bitterness has put normal dating outside of their range.  You’ve dealt with them online—-they are clearly hurting, broken men.  They buy into the zero sum thinking, which is that if they just lash out and hurt others enough, it’ll relieve their pain. But that doesn’t work, of course.

Obviously, it would be better for said men if they really embraced a more compassionate, egalitarian worldview long before the shit hits the fan.  But if it’s too late for that, it could help everyone if they got help for their problems.  I don’t like them, either, but god knows that their ex-wives would be better off if these men went to therapy to deal with their obsession with revenge, instead of lawyering up and hoping the next lawsuit fills the hole inside.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  12:47 PM

The more conservative the guy—-in terms of gender opinions—-the more oblivious he’s going to be to signs the significant other is unhappy. And how many guys just hate it when women are blunt? Jesus, I’ve got stalkers from five years ago who won’t let it go that I shut them down from insulting people reading my blog.

Comment #9: ginmar  on  05/31  at  12:47 PM

pablo, I meant more that his association with Fey allows people to feel like he can’t be that bad.  What people fail to understand is TV is a business—-Baldwin’s on there because he’s good at the role, not because he’s not that bad.  Hell, I’d hire him, too, even though I imagine I wouldn’t enjoy speaking to him about non-work stuff.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  12:49 PM

I meant more that his association with Fey allows people to feel like he can’t be that bad.  What people fail to understand is TV is a business—-Baldwin’s on there because he’s good at the role, not because he’s not that bad.  Hell, I’d hire him, too, even though I imagine I wouldn’t enjoy speaking to him about non-work stuff.

See:  wife-beater Sean Connery.  Rapist Mike Tyson.

Comment #11: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  12:51 PM

Agreed about conservative men and how they’ll be blind.  I think it’s in part because they’re stuck in thinking of women in terms of functions, not feelings.  Are the blow jobs coming?  Are the floors clean?  Then the marriage is working, right?  That her happiness is relevant doesn’t come into it, until that day she says fuck it.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  12:51 PM

I tend to lose sympathy for people when their supposed illness leads them to turn other people into mere symptoms of their own illness. My impression of them is not illness at all; they seem to take a grim satisfaction just in hurting people, simply because they can. There’s an explanation for it: it’s called sadism. Their investment in the idea that their wives are their possession is total; that’s why these guys so often kill their children to get back at their wives, because they really believe that they brought those kids into the world, and they can take them out, too.

I read a fascinating book about Ted Bundy that pointed out that he did not just sort of develop as a serial killer—like a photograph in the bath—-but sort of helped the process along by the most curious form of passivity and indifference. I think it’s a flaw rather than an illness. Bundy lacked certain things from the beginning; later on, he had choices, and invariably he picked the most sadistically selfish one available to him. That in turn further eroded his ability to see other people—-well, women—-as people. It was avoidance rather than a consciously chosen path, I guess, in that he didn’t sit down one day and write out a comprehensive course for becoming a serial killer, but maybe it satisfied whatever conscience he had.

These guys could stop at any point and go….You know, maybe I should think about this. About her. How would I feel if….? To cite an annoying personal anecdote, before I went to Iraq I was convinced that hijab was absolutely abusive and that was it. Then I found myself in the frying pan hot sun, wearing wool socks, combat boots, trousers, tee shirt, overblouse, twenty five pound bullet proof vest, gloves, a face cover, a scarf over my hair, a helmet and carrying pounds of ammo. The women wearing various civilian outfits—-and they were at all stages of covering——by contrast wore loose and comfortable clothes that shielded them from the sun. Duh. Lightbulb. For these guys, thinking about women just might in fact be, you know, like a visit to a foreign country. What they need is a dropkick across the border.

Now, if somebody wanted to make an argument that this kind of sadism is an addiction, that might work.  And then they’d have to be genuinely remorseful, which frankly in dealing with these guys I just haven’t seem much of. They’re just not capable of it. They do the Xmas card type remorse——cheap sentiment and so forth. When that doesn’t get them a cookie, they get enraged.

Comment #13: ginmar  on  05/31  at  01:05 PM

Oh, that bit about the blowjobs and stuff brings up something else: the reason these guys are so utterly infuriated about child support and alimony is because, essentially, they think women are whores and/or servants. Once the services stop, the bitch should take herself off. The kids? Well, kids stopped being valuable in this country about the turn of the century. As long as kids were unpaid laborers, dad got custody. Now they’re pretty much right up there with the discarded condom; it’s just byproduct of sex, unless of course they can use the kid to get at the ex, who just doesn’t understand that now that she’s been fired—and of course, they always talk like that——she doesn’t get a salary.

I wish somebody would do a story about the subsequent women these guys marry. These guys are classic abuser; they start off as Prince Charming, maybe with a dash of bad guy thrown in, and they pick women who might have been abused worse by some other guy before them. The bar’s low. Then they tell a tale of woe about the evil ex, and the new model is delighted because she gets to earn brownie points by attacking another woman.  She might help the guy win the custody fight then she starts to notice some really unpleasant things about the hubbie. Pretty soon, she’s out the door, too.

  I shudder to think Baldwin is gearing up for a new marriage with some poor woman.

Comment #14: ginmar  on  05/31  at  01:13 PM

Well, if you read the link, it’s pretty clear what they think the malfunction is.  A person has a certain expectation (in this case, that women exist strictly to serve and obey), and when they don’t get what they think is coming, they spiral into this bitterness that starts to take over their life. Many people are bitter, and many people are bitter for reasons that go back to their own willful stupidity, entitlement, and sadism.  But once that bitterness starts to dominate a person’s life, where their obsession with it makes them unable to take basic care of themselves, well, they’re not even thinking about basic self-interest any longer.  I think a lot of psychologists would agree 100% that some people are just massive assholes, but it’s obvious to me that severe MRA bullshit is assholery that bleeds into mental illness, because they can’t even take care of themselves anymore.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  01:16 PM

*teehee*  I thought it was Misogynist Racist Asshole.

Comment #16: slg  on  05/31  at  01:17 PM

I dunno. I really don’t know. I mean, I know that kind of thing is a feature of severe clinical depression—-I’ve fought that for more than four years and it’s horrible—-but it’s not because I feel like housework is a horrible assault on my non-existant manly man cred and stuff like that. Some guys just refuse to do housework and then they pull all kinds of passive aggressive bullshit to get out of it. “You just have higher standards! My time is more valuable! I forgot! You have to remind me! It doesn’t bother me as much as it does you, so you do it. How do I do it? How long do I do it? How hard? How soft? (Otherwise known as the make so much of a fuss about it that it’s just easier to do it yourself gambit.) You do the house stuff, I’ll do…the yard. Yeah. The yard. And the furniture moving. And the…garage. Yeah. The garage.” If there’s a history of this kind of thing, I’d argue that it’s a tactic not an illness.

One of the horrifying things about The Second Shift was how at some point some of the women came to realize that their husbands were willing to go all the way to divorce rather than do the shit work that they foisted on their wives. That has got to be a really terrifying realization, in so many different ways, for a woman to come to, especially the traditional SAHMs these guys tend to focus on, especially if there’s a first wife.

As for it bleeding into mental illness, well….if some guy has Munchausen Syndrome, not by proxy, where he keeps hitting himself with a polo mallet for sympathy or something….there’s ways to figure that out. These guys really are ace manipulators. They’ll do it to anybody they have to.

Comment #17: ginmar  on  05/31  at  01:25 PM

What therapy do you give the pathologically bitter?  Listening to the bitching is enabling the disorder.  Does the therapist just respond to everything with a gentle “dude, let it go” until it sinks in.

I’m not a therapist, but I assume you’d start by reflecting the guy’s feelings back to him, telling him what assumptions he’s holding about women and himself, how he got to think that way, correcting him where he’s wrong if he starts going off about how women hit their husbands back just as hard and rape is all a lie. If the guy has a seed of decency and humility in him, it might affect him, but I imagine the problem is getting most of these useless fuckers to realize they’re the ones with the problem and not the rest of the world. Not everyone can be helped, even if they “deserve” to be happy because they’re human and their lives are worth saving.

Comment #18: junk science  on  05/31  at  01:31 PM

Sociopathy is an incurable mental illness.  So is narcissism (sp?).  So is pedophilia.  All are dangerous.  That doesn’t mean they aren’t sick.  If my body is lacking in something, it’s an illness.  If my soul is, it’s ALSO an illness. 

However, a dangerous, untreatable mental illness requires hard action steps.  Pedophiles go to jail (not as often or for as long as they should, but they go to jail).  Other people with dangerous to oneself or other mental illnesses are institutionalized.  I don’t know what the solution is for this, but recognizing it as an illness can give the beleagured wives an advantage in court.  I also have a hard time believing that it exists without narcissism.

Comment #19: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  01:35 PM

’m not a therapist, but I assume you’d start by reflecting the guy’s feelings back to him, telling him what assumptions he’s holding about women and himself, how he got to think that way, correcting him where he’s wrong if he starts going off about how women hit their husbands back just as hard and rape is all a lie.

Hahaha! Sorry, ah, best laugh I’ve had all day. Unless it’s court-ordered, he’s going to pick his own therapist. Amanda, did you do a post about the horrifying Psychology Today column where the therapist told the husband that every time he and his wife argued, no matter where they were—-street, home, job, restaurant—-he was to reach into her blouse or up her skirt and fondle her? And the wife objected to this and the husband practically cheered?  Yeah, that kind of therapist.

Theoretical solutions that include assumptions about feminist therapists or courts that give a shit about women are…...well, they’re sweet, they really are.  But if this thing makes it on the books, there won’t be a lot of that. Remember Parental Alienation Syndrome? How it’s only women that suffer from it? Yeah, that gets a lot of play with guys like Baldwin and various media outlets that won’t do their research or just don’t give a shit. I’m sure embittered ex hubbies never try and turn the kids against the wife. Nope. Not at all.

Comment #20: ginmar  on  05/31  at  01:46 PM

Amanda- I see you’re point, but haven’t we already settled the issue of someone being deficient as a human being but still good at their craft, and being able to enjoy what they produce regardless of their personal problems?

Comment #21: pablo  on  05/31  at  01:49 PM

Semi_factual,

Speaking as a therapist who has worked with many of these men, what I do in terms of case conceptualization is recognize the bitterness as a defense against other emotions that are more threatening to the client, and my treatment plan generally involves helping the client find other ways of tolerating difficult emotions, forming a relationship with him that allows him slowly to feel he can practice experiencing these other emotions without shame, and helping him find relationships and contexts in the rest of his life that give him an opportunity to be real in this way without needing therapy anymore.

I also monitor issues of safety closely, since the bitterness and sense of entitlement can escalate into very dangerous behaviors toward the woman or women in question, especially when alcohol is involved (though there’s only so much I can do, depending on whether the men are up front with me about their intentions).

I have seen men who blame women for everything from their hoarding problems to their metastatic cancers. Most, when in the room with only me, can recognize, if not in such clear terms: “holy shit I’m really angry and this is a problem; I don’t want to be this way and I know it’s irrational.” Then when the woman in question is in the room (many who still have some kind of relationship with her have the tendency to try to drag her into therapy unexpectedly), it becomes all about her. I often point out to the men after such a session that they seem almost incapable of holding on to a sense of themselves when the woman is present; their bitterness is so big that it’s almost self-annihilating. I have had men acknowledge that this is part of the delusion of women being so all-powerful; from their perspective, because they have invested women psychologically with so much power over their sense of competency and identity, to them it feels like women are supernaturally endowed with the ability to destroy men.

Usually we can find the source of those feelings in early family experiences (which is not to blame anyone else for their behavior, mind you, only to help them understand it as a narrative that extends far beyond whatever divorce/breakup etc. they are obsessing over). I almost always find some kind of early traumatic or semi-traumatic experience at the heart of this bitterness. These are very often the sons of alcoholic and abusive fathers, or of single mothers who carried anger toward the father over onto the son. The sons grow up and keep repeating relationship after relationship where they are punishing a stand-in for every scary thing their mothers caused or didn’t/couldn’t prevent. Developing a more adult, objective, and compassionate perspective on their mother’s behavior can often do a lot to unlock them from the bitterness.

Also, a good strategy is to point out the limits of what he can control, the way that his attempts to control the woman in question are failing or are distracting him from other important areas in his life, and help him to focus on things that he really can control. I’m often saying something like “Yes, but she’s not in the room right now; right now it’s just you here. So that’s all we have to work with. We’re going to have to find a solution that’s all about you.” In a sense I use his drive to feel masterful/competent as a way to push him into areas where he really can feel powerful, and where exercising this power is healthy rather than harmful for himself and others.

All of this only works if you can develop a good therapeutic relationship with them. Oddly enough, though I’m female, I’ve never had problems with these men being willing to work with me. Sometimes the anger gets directed at me, and I can model for them how to listen emphatically but set limits on appropriate vs. inappropriate ways of expressing anger.

Sorry to go on. Will stop now. I find this particular subject very interesting!

Comment #22: Dymphna  on  05/31  at  01:51 PM

I don’t know, working as a psych nurse, I think that classification would be used much more as an excuse for inexcusable behavior and thereby, the need for sympathy and breaks rather than recognition and avenues for help. “No, no, I have a syndrome! My wife should then not be allowed to move out / have more custody / divorce my ass and live with someone else, she’s just a bitch hating on my mental illness! You need to call her and explain this!” (Uh, no.) I do not doubt that they are self-harmful and harmful to others, similarly to borderline personality, so I’m torn on it. I do already see this with depression, bipolar and substance abuse,* I don’t particularly see a need to add “bitterness syndrome” or “entitled personality disorder” to the mix, other than a huge warning sign for potential partners of things to come. It makes them difficult to have as patients, because they crave recognition and sympathy, and resist any efforts to self-examine - they don’t want their own actions/thoughts to be the subject, only their girlfriend/wife/ex-wife’s, and how horrible they are.
They frequently do move onto to someone who will easily take in their tale of woe, who is more impressionable/naive, and has less resources.

I know that with domestic violence there is a resistance to classifying it as a mental issue, because then their actions are part of a disorder, and make it easier for them to resist jail-time - “I’m going to a therapist instead! Don’t send me to jail for my disorder!”


*which is not to say that anyone with these diseases is an MRA or is otherwise involved in these actions, which only makes their rationalization of their actions more suspect - not everyone that is depressed tries to “mess with” their ex-wife or pull this stuff, therefore it isn’t symptomatic of that illness.

Comment #23: Tenya  on  05/31  at  02:03 PM

MRA as a psychological disorder.  I like that.  I can just see the divorce lawyers going head to head now, with “Parental Alienation Syndrome” on one side and “Post Traumatic Bitterness Disorder” on the other.  Wheee!

Comment #24: Lisa KS  on  05/31  at  02:03 PM

Well, ginmar, the article does state openly that one problem with bitter people is they won’t get treatment for it.  But it’s not black and white with MRAs—-there’s varying levels there.  More to the point, it will help psychologists to have this specific diagnosis, so if they get someone in their office that seeks help for depression and exhibits symptoms, they can start treatment before the guy discovers anti-child support groups that encourage him to grow more bitter and violent.  I’m fairly positive that many men that get drawn to being MRAs have a period post-divorce when they’re drifting around, confused, and the MRA movement sells them this story about how they’ve got it all figured out.  If therapists can get in there first, then there’s hope for many of them.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  02:07 PM

Yes, pablo, we “settled” that.  I’m not sure what your point is, though.  It’s not a theoretical issue at hand, but a realistic one, which is getting a reputation as an insufferable asshole who hates an entire group of people can hurt your career, even if you’re good at your craft, especially if the tabloids latch onto you.  I would argue that Baldwin’s association with a female-headed show and his professional relationship with Fey mitigates the damage he’s doing to his reputation.  He’s lucky to work with people who put quality before reputation, but it’s fantastical to believe that it can’t hurt your career, even if you believe it shouldn’t.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  02:10 PM

I would guess that some of these men are reachable—they came to their MRA beliefs due to misplaced anger and hurt about their own early narcissistic wounds, and therapy can help them come to terms with that anger and not direct it at women in general.  There are, however, sociopathic assholes who won’t stop their behavior unless the law forces them to do so (and even then, for some).  These guys are probably hopeless, because they are genuinely disinterested in emotional connection—it’s all about power and control. 

In terms of prevention, the more we can dismantle the culture of masculinity that says that the most important thing in a male’s life is his ability to own, dominate, and control—and replace it with an emphasis on emotional connection and interdependence with others—the better off we’ll all be.  A tall order, and one which is being furiously resisted by the right wing (they frame it as the “feminization of our culture”), but a necessary one.

Comment #27: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/31  at  02:12 PM

Brutally, the other thing that a diagnosis like this can do is force an insurance company to continue to pay for therapy.  It would be a shame if Dymphna lost a patient because his insurance couldn’t cover his visits anymore, wouldn’t it?

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  02:18 PM

Narcissism is terribly dangerous and almost always untreatable.  You can’t treat someone who doesn’t believe they have a problem, and narcissists very very rarely come to the conclusion that the problem is with them—it’s with everyone else.  That’s kinda what narcissism IS.

Comment #29: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  02:18 PM

Breaking: Dr. George Tiller murdered.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/31/737213/-George-Tiller-Murdered

Comment #30: Yamara  on  05/31  at  02:24 PM

You can’t treat someone who doesn’t believe they have a problem, and narcissists very very rarely come to the conclusion that the problem is with them—it’s with everyone else.

Or to put it another way, abusers are committed to the story of their own victimization- its close to the center of their identity. The vast majority of them will never part with that story willingly, the only way, of course, they ever can be parted from it.

Comment #31: Cass  on  05/31  at  02:25 PM

Amanda, there was just a news flash that George Tiller was shot and killed by the anti choice freaks.

Comment #32: ginmar  on  05/31  at  02:33 PM

These guys are just angry, spoiled rotten, and sexist.

Yeah, I’m with ginmar on this. I think it is a bad idea to think of this kind of behavior as a “mental disorder”. These MRA dudes are just obsessive narcissistic assholes.

Comment #33: PhysioProf  on  05/31  at  02:34 PM

You’re right, Siobhan, someone with narcissistic personality disorder rarely comes to therapy without an external event forcing them to do so. But they do show up for therapy when their life spins out of control due to their narcissistic behavior, or due to some other crisis in their lives (for example, the ones I have encountered have sought therapy during life-threatening illnesses), or because a court mandates that they do so. Then it is sometimes possible to help them understand and manage the narcissism. It is not my experience that it is untreatable; possibly incurable, in the sense that narcissism may always be their primary defense and an underlying organizing factor to their personality, but that doesn’t mean you can’t help a person learn how to be himself without hurting himself or others.

But most of the guys who fall into the MRA category are not really narcissistic in that profound sense of a pervasive pattern of interpersonal relationships starting in early childhood. We all have elements of narcissism (and that’s a good thing). The narcissistic features of their personality may have been amplified, but that can be temporary.

Unfortunately, I’m not certain that assigning a diagnosis would automatically lead to insurance coverage (oy, don’t get me started), but it would certainly make it more likely.

Comment #34: Dymphna  on  05/31  at  02:38 PM

Siobhan—My first ex-husband (yes, I have a couple of them) would describe any effort I made to introduce a topic of importance to me as “nagging”, and ignore it.  Then when I reached the point of actually complaining, he would say “Why didn’t you tell me?”  You do realize, don’t you, that you are only hearing your brother’s side of the story?  Could be he’s no better at listening than most men are.

Comment #35: Older  on  05/31  at  02:39 PM

Dymphna, your description of your therapeutic approach is absolutely fascinating. Thanks for posting about it. Do you have your own blog?

Comment #36: PhysioProf  on  05/31  at  02:49 PM

Dymphna—thanks for taking the time to describe your therapeutic approach and your insights about your patients.  Very illuminating.

Comment #37: nolo  on  05/31  at  02:52 PM

Siobhan,

A quibble.  If by “narcissism” you mean Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I would agree, for the most part.  The term “narcissism” also refers to a characteristic which we all share: an inherent belief in our own specialness, our sense of self.  There is such a thing as “healthy narcissism”—the belief that “I am somebody” and entitled to certain basic rights (otherwise known as “self-esteem”).  Pathological narcissism, on the other hand, is healthy narcissism run amok.  There are various theories as to what causes pathological narcissism—early attachment problems, abuse, parental neglect, parental overindulgence, genetic factors etc.  As with most things, pathological narcissism appears to exist on a continuum.  At its most extreme manifestation, it is almost indistinguishable from sociopathy (Anti-Social Personality Disorder) in the complete lack of empathy and insight demonstrated by those who “suffer” from it.

As for treatability, well, it depends on the individual and severity of the narcissism.  Typically, no one comes to therapy complaining of excessive narcissism.  Usually, as you say, they believe the problem lies with everyone else or they come to therapy complaining of depression or some such.  Still, a patient therapist can sometimes find an opening to point out how the client’s own behavior causes problems in his/her own life.  It’s a tricky business, though, and like as not will result in the narcissistic client walking out in a huff, but it may be possible to chip away at the narcissism and get some improvement.  Whole books have been written on the subject, as I’m sure you’re aware.

Comment #38: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/31  at  02:52 PM

Or, what Dymphna said much more clearly and concisely. smile

Comment #39: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/31  at  02:54 PM

Older—Actually, my bro, his gf, and I were fairly close and hung out a LOT.  And, since I have such a close and personal relationship with passive-aggressive behavior in my own family, the first time I saw her with her parents, I saw it.  I tried to talk to her about it as a friend, but she was hearing none of it (and by as a friend, I do mean with tact—tried to share with her my experiences in the hopes she would recognize herself and hers in them).  I also was friends with a couple of her friends, and after the shit went down, they said “yeah, she was unhappy for a long time, but that’s just her way—she “toughs it out.”  I am also very well acquainted with my brother’s flaws, and not caring isn’t one of them.  He CAN be very obtuse—he’s so committed to honest open communication that he often doesn’t recognize the deep sigh and “no, really I’m fine” as “I’m not fine at all,” but I quickly lose patience with women over thirty still playing those games (AND with men, I just see P-A more often in women).

Comment #40: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  02:55 PM

Older—there are bad women, too.

Comment #41: Punditus Maximus  on  05/31  at  02:56 PM

I don’t know what exactly Dymphna means by “narcissism” here, but in the domestic violence field we never, ever recommend individual counselling for the abuser. The reason why is simple: many or most abusers are very manipulative, and the story they tell almost invariably turns out to be very self-serving. The usual sad result is that their view of themselves as put-upon victims without any serious problems is strengthened, rather than weakened.

Comment #42: Cass  on  05/31  at  02:57 PM

Captain & Dymphna—yes, I was referring to the profound illness of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and not your run-of-the-mill trait.  And I’ve read some of those books—and the conclusion always seems to be that “yeah, under the right circumstances we can maybe help a little sometimes.”  I will admit here that I am biased, as I have met several people who fit the symptoms of NPD exactly—unsurprising, I am an addict in recovery, and have met a LOT of sickos—some of whom are dear friends wink. (ok, and one of whom is me!)

And Dymphna, I second the appreciation for your insight into your treatment approaches.

Comment #43: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  03:00 PM

Posted on Dr. Tiller’s murder.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/31  at  03:00 PM

Embittered people are typically good people who have worked hard at something important, such as a job, relationship or activity, Linden says. When something unexpectedly awful happens—they don’t get the promotion, their spouse files for divorce or they fail to make the Olympic team—a profound sense of injustice overtakes them. Instead of dealing with the loss with the help of family and friends, they cannot let go of the feeling of being victimized. Almost immediately after the traumatic event, they become angry, pessimistic, aggressive, hopeless haters.

So… They are working hard at something, and feel entitled to success. When they do not receive that success, instead of placing the blame on fate, luck, god, or any number of things that are genuinely out of anyone’s control, they see themselves as the victim. By their very understanding of that entitlement, whoever received that promotion, or whomever the spouse moves on to, or whoever actually made the olympic team, etc, was less deserving. Because they hadn’t worked hard or done the right things. It’s a composite of narcissism to the point of perceived infallibility, delusions of grandeur, and a persecution complex.

Yeah, I can see how that would be a mental illness, in a situation where those symptoms are pronounced and exaggerated beyond scale. And it was a recurring issue in more than one sector of life.

If however, they simply feel entitled and hate their ex-wife for not putting up with their shit, even if they draw it broadly and blame women collectively, I’d still say that just makes for an entitled asshole rather than actual mental disorder, similar to the distinction between being rude and having antisocial personality disorder, or being sad and depression.

Comment #45: karpad  on  05/31  at  03:31 PM

Theoretical solutions that include assumptions about feminist therapists or courts that give a shit about women are…...well, they’re sweet, they really are.

I didn’t say anything about what kind of therapy these guys would end up getting in real life. The person I was addressing asked what a therapist might say to an MRA that could possibly be useful, so I gave my own uneducated opinion, and luckily an actual therapist came and gave a real answer. I wasn’t discussing sexist asshole therapists because the question wasn’t about them.

I think it is a bad idea to think of this kind of behavior as a “mental disorder”. These MRA dudes are just obsessive narcissistic assholes.

Well, we depressed people are self-centered, insufferable, boring, neurotic assholes. We’re also people with a mental illness that can be and is effectively treated all the time.

Comment #46: junk science  on  05/31  at  04:31 PM

I wonder if the stakes of the bitterness, not the emotion itself which is the anger of having your illusions of women as submissive property shattered in such a way that makes you feel less manly and thus like a woman who will be raped at any point by manlier men, but rather the stakes are a product of the idea that there is no emotional growth after college.

What I mean, is that there is a cultural narrative that you are supposed to settle into your life and your personality after college and from there it all is and that there is no reboot or you could find yourself starting over at 50 and doing better for yourself by emotional growth. The book written by Ellen’s mom goes into this where she was living a pretty banal life with what turned out to be an abuser and in the years after Ellen came out to her, really evolved her life for the better and got back into dating genuinely respectful guys and learning all sorts of things she thought she had been too old to learn.

In short, I wonder if what’s adding to the pressure is the idea that they lost their “one chance” to live the life mandated by patriarch code and now they’re bound to end up broken losers because they can’t evolve and rebuild from scratch and think about what they genuinely want and grow as a person, because it’s “too late”.

But yeah, agree that the “illness” if it is one, is really just an extreme form of the entitlement and resistance of being wrong that privileged people face. The ignorance and lowering of station that can come when someone reveals your assumed world isn’t and you need to learn a bunch more stuff about a different perspective and worse having to think of as human people you don’t.

Comment #47: Cerberus  on  05/31  at  04:37 PM

Yeah, speak for yourself there, Junk SCience.

And punditus maximus…..no shit, REALLY? Because Christ only knows it’s not like any time people get close to talking about the shit that men do some asshole doesdn’t pop up and whine “But….but…women do it TOO YOU KNOW.”

Wow, I’m so relieved you stepped up to the plate.

Comment #48: ginmar  on  05/31  at  04:58 PM

They are working hard at something, and feel entitled to success. When they do not receive that success, instead of placing the blame on fate, luck, god, or any number of things that are genuinely out of anyone’s control, they see themselves as the victim.

The best part is, they’re not working at their relationships. They think of relationships as something that’s supposed to work for them, and they never gave it a thought because they never had to. They’re basically children whose toys have been taken away.

Most of them are probably lost causes, because they’d never acknowledge that they’re the problem. Even if they’re not strictly mentally ill, it might help a lot of them to save the money they’re spending on lawyers and get some actual treatment, but they’d never take the first step.

Comment #49: junk science  on  05/31  at  05:20 PM

I figure if the abusers hate The Duluth Project it must be doing something good, and it’s not listening to some woman-hating asshole blame his mom or whatever.

Comment #50: ginmar  on  05/31  at  05:27 PM

Remember Parental Alienation Syndrome? How it’s only women that suffer from it?

FWIW, Ginmar, it has come up in Ontario courts of late.  Two of the most prominent recent cases are show that gender isn’t the player, the viciousness or obsessiveness of the spouse in question (in those cases, one ex-husband, one ex-wife) is the main rocket for the wrongdoing.

Comment #51: seeker6079  on  05/31  at  05:37 PM

Seeker, frankly, bullshit. The MRA movement has used this for years nad it’s just a new spin on an old story: the Woman Scorned. Yeah, let’s talk about a Man Scorned. Nicole sure as fuck didn’t kill OJ.

A Canadian study found that men are more likely to make up lies about abuse than women are. Not shockingly, people aren’t much interested in examining the viciousness of men toward women.

Comment #52: ginmar  on  05/31  at  06:14 PM

Before he went crazy, Baldwin was fairly liberal. I remember him speaking out against Bush and threatening to move to Canada.

Oddly, I see a lot of this derangement situation in myself, except that instead of focusing on women, I turn it inward on myself, thinking that I don’t deserve anyone, and that I’m utterly useless. A lot of it dates back to a breakup I had with my last gf fifteen years ago.

Comment #53: Mark Temporis  on  05/31  at  06:27 PM

Baldwin was liberal only if you removed women from the equation. There are lots of male liberals like this.

Comment #54: ginmar  on  05/31  at  06:39 PM

I am going to back up Siobahn on the “this is not always pure male entitlement” side of “I never saw it coming.”

Well, if you NEVER saw it coming, maybe it is. But being kept in the dark until it is too late? I think that happens a fair amount for a number of reasons. Passive-aggressiveness is taught to women in our society as the primary way to get things done. Couple that with men being taught “emotions are for girls” and you are creating a cocktail for disaster.

There’s also the question of women being taught that they are responsible for the emotional work of a relationship AND that they must never let the man see that they are doing the emotional work of a relationship.  The result is, as Siobahn says, the possible case where the man will ask, will want to help out, but will be put off.

This is not to deny the scads of times it is, in fact, just entitlement issues, or that all these things interplay a lot.  This is definitely a both/and scenario and I think in any given relationship who was actually doing the not listening needs to be a case by case basis.

None of which, of course, changes that your relationship not working out doesn’t entitle you to become a supremely misogynistic asshole MRA.

Comment #55: LC  on  05/31  at  07:03 PM

Wow,  ginmar, your initial comment at 12:05 about the hijab and a change of thought on the subject was surprising and well written. Thanks for sharing that.

Comment #56: staydaddy  on  05/31  at  08:59 PM

Thank you LC.  I will also add—from both my experience and from what I have witnessed—that it does seem that passive-aggressive women seem to end up with controlling men—since I started with my brother’s story, I’ll continue with it.  He is VERY controlling—but he knows it, works on it and when someone stands up to him, he’ll stop and think and have a reasonable conversation about it.  But controlling on the one side enables passivity on the other. 

We came up with a new dating rule for him after this:  everyone has their crazy, a well-adjusted person is someone who is aware of, working on, has maybe even made friends with their crazy.  So if he sees no sign of crazy within 6 weeks?  Hightail it out of there!

Comment #57: Siobhan  on  05/31  at  09:25 PM

So if he sees no sign of crazy within 6 weeks

Maybe if it’s a really intense relationship from the beginning (the couple spending almost all of their nonworking time together), sure, but I’ve dated plenty of guys where the relationship really didn’t progress to seeing any warts by the sixth week.

Comment #58: keshmeshi  on  05/31  at  09:34 PM

Is there no possibility that Baldwin was making fun of the sort of person who thinks foreign women are more compliant (i.e. “feminine,” “old-fashioned,” “thrifty,” etc.) than Americans, and so thinks importing one will guarantee marital bliss?

Not to say there’s any humor in the likelihood of such a man being a control freak who wants to put a woman at his total mercy, by uprooting her from home and family, and placing her in an unfamiliar culture, where they speak a different language.

On an intertwined topic: Every day while I lived in Nerdland, I used to see white guys who fetishized Asian women for being “submissive,” petite, dainty, etc.

Comment #59: Hector B.  on  05/31  at  09:37 PM

What I mean, is that there is a cultural narrative that you are supposed to settle into your life and your personality after college and from there it all is and that there is no reboot or you could find yourself starting over at 50 and doing better for yourself by emotional growth.

If you watched “In Treatment” this season, that’s exactly the crossroads that Walter and Paul got to, with Walter thinking he was too old to go into deep therapy and actually figure things out.

I don’t know if therapists feel like “In Treatment” is accurate, but as a former (and future) patient, it sure felt authentic to me (except for the speeded-up timeframe, of course—patients were having revelations in five weeks that it usually takes months to get to).

Sorry, off topic but interesting to me since we have a professional in the thread.

Comment #60: Mnemosyne  on  05/31  at  09:42 PM

I think Siobahn’s main point and rule is a good one. (I am, in fact, shamelessly stealing it.)  I do think that 6 weeks might not be the right time frame, but the basic rule is sound.

Mind you, this falls a bit into the same rule I have about people who insist they have no drama or don’t allow drama in their lives.  Run away from these people, because they are massive drama queens. Anyone who says they have no crazy? Probably has really bad crazy that will explode out. Anyone who tells you how awesomely good they are at communication? Probably prone to massive failures of communication.

I might just be cynical and slightly misanthropic, now that I think about it. smile

Comment #61: LC  on  05/31  at  09:43 PM

“Baldwin was liberal only if you removed women from the equation. There are lots of male liberals like this. “

Oh yes.  Those are some true words there.  But a lot of people don’t realize it.  It drives me crazy.

Comment #62: Lady Vader  on  05/31  at  09:48 PM

Back on topic, I think part of the problem is that MRAs can be anything from total sociopaths to deeply wounded narcissists to men with serious anger management issues and everything in between.  Some MRAs probably could be helped by early intervention therapy.  Some probably couldn’t.  The problem would come in when the sociopaths manipulate whatever system is put in place to their own ends, because that’s what sociopaths do.

Now, ginmar’s probably going to rip my face off for saying this wink  but I can’t help wondering if some couples manage to get themselves into a sort of folie a deux in reverse.  We see it in non-romantic relationships where two people (often, but not always two men) get so involved in suing one another for imaginary offenses that they can’t be reasoned with, so I can’t think of any logical reason why it couldn’t happen in romantic relationships.

Comment #63: Mnemosyne  on  05/31  at  09:53 PM

Mind you, this falls a bit into the same rule I have about people who insist they have no drama or don’t allow drama in their lives.  Run away from these people, because they are massive drama queens. Anyone who says they have no crazy? Probably has really bad crazy that will explode out. Anyone who tells you how awesomely good they are at communication? Probably prone to massive failures of communication.

My now husband was extremely relieved to hear early on in our dating that I was in therapy, because it meant that I was working on my crazy and he wasn’t going to have to deal with it all on his own.  Not that I never subjected him to any crazy, but at least we both knew that we could sort it out.

Comment #64: Mnemosyne  on  05/31  at  09:57 PM

LC, thanks, maybe the meds are working.

Mnem, I won’t rip your face off, but damn, that’s awful close to victim blaming and shaving the difference so the attacker gets his responsibility lessened while the victim gets hers increased. This is similar to what you see when cops who don’t want to take DV seriously say it’s ‘equal combat’. So what happened to self defense? Absent proof, I’m not buying it.

Comment #65: ginmar  on  05/31  at  10:04 PM

Not directly related, but:
http://unsanesafe.blogspot.com/2009/06/boys-will-never-be-women.html

Comment #66: scratchy888  on  06/01  at  12:12 AM

Sorry, I meant Staydaddy, not that LC isn’t perfectly wonderful on his/her own. Obviously the meds are not working that great. On something.

Comment #67: ginmar  on  06/01  at  12:44 AM

Mind you, this falls a bit into the same rule I have about people who insist they have no drama or don’t allow drama in their lives.  Run away from these people, because they are massive drama queens. Anyone who says they have no crazy? Probably has really bad crazy that will explode out.

Exactly.  Whenever someone volunteers information like that I think why are you telling me this?  Someone who is truly sane doesn’t need to brag about it, they just are what they are.  Most of the time they don’t even realize how sane they are because it has never been an issue.

Comment #68: keshmeshi  on  06/01  at  01:11 AM

Sadly, being liberal does not always line up with being feminist, as Baldwin clearly shows.  In many cases, liberal men are as concerned as conservatives with controlling female sexuality, just in a different way.  They still thoroughly believe that sex is about men only, that it’s something that women give to men or do for men.  The difference is that they want women to give them sex without having to marry that woman and be monogamous for life.  Liberal men can be just as quick to slut-shame as conservatives if a specific woman gives sex to lots of men, but not that specific liberal man.  I can’t even count the number of men who have been genuinely surprised that I like sex and I’m not ashamed of it.  Plenty of liberal men are amazed when I stand up for myself and expect sex to be as good for me as it is for him.  They’re also surprised that I won’t do “favors” for them where they get pleasure and I get nothing except their approval and a pat on the head, and that I would rather doing something that we both gain pleasure from.  It’s amazing that guys would think giving a blow job is somehow asking less than intercourse, considering that giving oral sex just doesn’t feel nearly as good for me, especially with the implicit assumption that he will not be returning the favor.  When there’s a pervasive myth that women don’t really like sex and they just use it to manipulate men, even some liberal men will fall for it.  We should all be careful not to make the mistake of equating liberalism with feminism.

Comment #69: bananacat  on  06/01  at  11:02 AM

Plenty of liberal men are amazed when I stand up for myself and expect sex to be as good for me as it is for him.  They’re also surprised that I won’t do “favors” for them where they get pleasure and I get nothing except their approval and a pat on the head, and that I would rather doing something that we both gain pleasure from.  It’s amazing that guys would think giving a blow job is somehow asking less than intercourse,

While catgirl’s position is the norm for my experience, a friend of mine has told me that when things are moving too fast for her with a new guy who she’s interested in, she will often offer a blow job to forestall intercourse. I wonder how common that is. (I have no idea if these guys are all but date rapists, act entitled, or are merely whiny. If people confide in me, fine, but I’m not going to probe them for details.)

Comment #70: Hector B.  on  06/01  at  11:55 AM

a friend of mine has told me that when things are moving too fast for her with a new guy who she’s interested in, she will often offer a blow job to forestall intercourse.

Wouldn’t it be great if a woman could just choose not to engage in any sexual activity if she doesn’t want to?  While I realize that there is tremendous pressure on women to “give sex” to men, this isn’t a very good solution.  I’m not blaming the friend, I’m blaming the men who think they are entitled to something after a certain amount of time.  The problem is that if she doesn’t want intercourse, she should be allowed to just say so and not do anything.  This kind of situation puts her in danger, because it’s very rare for people to use condoms during oral sex, and most people don’t realize that some diseases can be passed that way.  The chance of spreading a disease through unprotected oral is a lot smaller than through unprotected intercourse, but the risk is greater than intercourse with a condom.  Also, maybe she wouldn’t want to forestall intercourse as often if it were socially acceptable for her to enjoy sex and she knew that she would be getting as much out of it as the man.  Still, if she chooses not to do it, she should not feel pressured to do a favor instead.

Comment #71: bananacat  on  06/01  at  12:07 PM

catgirl: Agree 100%.

Comment #72: Hector B.  on  06/01  at  12:55 PM

OT: While we are speaking of brides ... THIS is how you “trash the dress” right!

Comment #73: Ms Kate  on  06/01  at  01:11 PM

What therapy do you give the pathologically bitter?  Listening to the bitching is enabling the disorder.  Does the therapist just respond to everything with a gentle “dude, let it go” until it sinks in.

semi_factual

Mine did.
And constantly called me Captain WhineyPants.

Now I’m only half the bitter whiney ass I used to be. smile

Comment #74: cynickal  on  06/01  at  03:43 PM

Alec Baldwin reminds me of Napoleon’s line about the French diplomat Talleyrand:

Ah, tenez, vous êtes de la merde dans un bas de soie.

<u>Look, you’re shit in a silk stocking</u>.

Comment #75: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/01  at  05:21 PM

100% Agree . Buy online prescription drugs without RX.

Comment #76: prescription drugs  on  06/03  at  09:01 AM
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