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Bamboo Review: Food, Inc.

FoodMoviesBamboo Reviews

It’s been a day and a half since I’ve seen this movie, but I didn’t review it Saturday morning because we went tubing all day yesterday (and boy are my arms tired!).  But I’d be falling down on my blogger duties if I didn’t review this movie for you, because I think that this is going to be an important documentary.  Or it should be, anyway.  Even if you’ve read the two books it’s basically based on—-Fast Food Nation and The Omnivore’s Dilemma—-you should see this movie, and more importantly, you should bring someone who has not read those books.  As they demonstrate in short part in the movie, people educating themselves and making different choices about their food does make a difference.  And let’s face it, even if you’ve read about our fucked up food industry and intellectually understand the ramifications, there’s an emotional impact to seeing the various ways real human beings are hurt by the system. 

And I mean human beings.  Taking off the political pragmatism of the two books that Food, Inc. is based off, the focus is mostly on the human costs, even though the temptation is often to focus strongly on how animals suffer tremendously from CAFOs and breeding techniques that make their short lives even more miserable.  Animal suffering isn’t completely ignored, but it’s not dwelt upon at the expense of looking at human suffering.  You don’t need extensive shots of chickens falling over because they’re breasts are too big for their bodies or the horror of live animals being tossed around brutally by machinery (including bulldozers) to get the picture—-the brief use of these images is plenty, and unforgettable.

But what was so effective in this movie is that the cruelty to animals is put in the larger context of how the system fucks everyone, animal or human, for the almighty dollar.  When you see cows being pushed around by bulldozers or chicks being marked and flung into a chute as if these were apples being sorted, you have to wonder what kind of toll it takes on the people who have to dispense that kind of cruelty to keep their jobs.  Actually, you don’t have to wonder at all, since one farmer they speak to who is sick of it talks about the emotional toll that raising a bunch of mutant, miserable chickens takes on her.  To make it worse, she basically makes no money, because the meat companies are forever requiring their producers to upgrade their equipment (not to make the meat healthier or to reduce cruelty, but to grow more faster and cheaper), which requires the producers to take out a bunch of loans that they pretty much never can pay back.  This constant debt cycle keeps producers beholden to companies like Tyson, and so even if they wanted to use healthier, more humane practices, they can’t. 

The focus for a lot of people who are concerned about the unethical food industry is on the consumer side—-how is our food making us sick?  And sometimes that focus ignores the labor abuses that drive the food industry, and what this movie really excelled at was showing how the food industry’s mistreatment of workers is entangled with the food safety issues and trade/pricing issues.  You see, for instance, how corn subsidies in the U.S. drove a lot of Mexican corn farmers out of business, and how then many of them move to the U.S. to work illegally in meat packing plants, and how the plants “give” the U.S. government a dozen or so immigrants a week to deport in exchange for the government looking the other way on their hiring practices.  So the same thing—-corn subsidies—-that provides Americans with escalating heart disease and diabetes problems is also the thing that creates this horrific cycle of abusie for Mexican immigrants.  You also see how the big agriculture corporations act like they’re a tyrannical government and farmers are their cowed citizens.  Monsanto’s strategy of suing farmers for not using their soybean seeds is lovingly detailed.  The two strategies to make use of their seeds mandatory is this—-they’ll sue you if your crop is accidentally fertilized by a neighbor using Monsanto seeds, and they sue farmers who they suspect are saving and reusing seed, a money-saving strategy that Monsanto has banned, and one that’s hard to prove or disprove, so basically you have to settle even if you’re not guilty. 


They attacked the consumer side of the issue, too, of course.  We’re subjected to a heart-wrenching story of a woman whose young son died a horrific death (she describes him begging for forbidden water) after eating E. coli contaminated hamburger and having a massive organ shutdown.  She’s now a food safety advocate, and boy do they have some hair-curling statistics about how basic food safety regulation has slipped under decades of anti-government ideology emanating from the Republican party.  We’re also introduced to hard-working but poor couple with two daughters who are facing a world of health problems because they can’t afford to eat right, though they really want to.  Their logic is straightforward and shows that this complicated issue is fundamentally not when people are making the basic decisions of what to eat.  It’s simply cheaper in terms of time and money to feed a family of 4 on McDonald’s hamburgers than to feed them fresh fruit and vegetables served with low-fat complex carbs and lean proteins.  You can know the long term costs in terms of diabetes and heart disease, but that doesn’t make the immediate problem of how to eat healthy and cheaply go away. 

The producers did prioritize covering issues that have scientific evidence firmly behind them, and they largely avoided some of the more marginal and controversial issues, such as how dangerous it is to eat foods that have been treated with pesticides.  (Mostly—-we’re treated a humorous digression about how the problem of E. coli that could largely be solved by feeding cows grass has been tackled by the meat industry instead by washing meat with ammonia.)  Heart disease and diabetes are major health problems in the U.S. because of how we eat (and our sedentary lifestyles, another issue for another documentary), and these are the focus, particularly diabetes, which has become a common problem for younger and younger people.  E. coli poisoning is obviously real, and the way that E. coli is getting into people’s food isn’t especially controversial.  (CAFOs creates mountains of shit that gets into water, and is used to irrigate crops like spinach, covering them with E. coli.)  Kudos to the producers for making the case without opening themselves up to charges of arguing from speculation.

That said, my one quibble with the movie is that it reinforces anti-science prejudice.  GMOs are listed as a point of concern without much explanation, which could lead under-educated viewers to freak out about the healthiness of “Frankenfood”, even though genetically modifying food is pretty safe and not all that different from the old-fashioned way of genetic modification, which is selective breeding.  (In one case, you change the DNA by splicing, in another, you do so by applying human-based natural selection.)  The main problem I have with GMOs is that they’re being used to abuse farmers—-GMO seed is copyrighted mainly so that Monsanto can endlessly sue farmers for copyright violation in order to cow the entire farming community into growing how Monsanto says, which is by using Monsanto seeds that you buy fresh every year (no saving!).  Or the focus of the development is fucked up—-it’s a good thing to develop a plant that resists pests, making pesticide unnecessary.  It’s another thing to make a plant that resists pesticide, so that you can sell more pesticide.  But these distinctions are not dwelt upon, even though the specific GMO example they use is problematic, but not for health reasons, but for labor reasons.  In another part of the movie, they interview a scientist about his work in developing various corn-based products, and then they imply that this is wrong because it’s “unnatural”.  Nature is simply not an argument in my book.  There’s specific instances, such as pointing out that feeding animals things they didn’t evolve to eat fucks them up, that makes sense.  But just sweeping claims that nature is better than science drives me nuts.  Give me the polio vaccine over polio any day.  If we could create a fertilizer that worked as well as fossil-fuel based fertilizers, but it didn’t use up a nonrenewable resource or caused pollution, then bring it on!  The problem isn’t science, but the valuing of profit over health of people or the environment.  Unfortunately, the trailer really relies on this kind of panic that presumes that old is better than new, or “nature” is better than science.  But in reality, they do hang onto scientifically sound arguments for their actual stories.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:25 PM • (217) Comments

Actually, GMO foods are not similar to naturally selected cross-breeding. It is not just normal cross-breeding “sped up”. Actually splicing pesticide INTO the genes of food crops (as oppsed to ON the food crops, which is problematic enough!) presents health dangers that are eco-system-wide. Particularly when the pesticies genetically placed IN the food are known nerve toxins.

Comment #1: KMTBERRY  on  06/28  at  02:06 PM

it’s a good thing to develop a plant that resists pests, making pesticide unnecessary

Careful avoidance of monoculture can also make pesticides unnecessary, though it does complicate harvesting.

genetically modifying food is pretty safe and not all that different from the old-fashioned way of genetic modification, which is selective breeding.  (In one case, you change the DNA by splicing, in another, you do so by applying human-based natural selection.)

I share your concern over the scaremongering about this, but I’m not sure this specific assertion is true: selective breeding is within-species, and cross-breeding is between closely related species (intuitively in both cases; I’d be happy to be proven wrong), but DNA splicing can be done with any two DNA molecules. Seems (intuitively again) like these constraints on the breeding techniques are likely to be less problematic than splicing.

Comment #2: fluxisrad  on  06/28  at  02:24 PM

There’s specific instances, such as pointing out that feeding animals things they didn’t evolve to eat fucks them up, that makes sense.

I’m not sure humans have evolved to eat DNA-spliced food as described by fluxisrad and KMTBERRY.

I’m not anti-science, but I wish science were pressed into the service of helping people be healthier rather than making a few people lots more money. That’s why faith in science is often misplaced.

Comment #3: David B.  on  06/28  at  02:33 PM

Uncomprehending fear of GMO is keeping golden rice from being distributed and grown.  This rice can prevent vitamin A deficiency blindness in the third world.  It was not produced by a big agribusiness for profit, but to save the vision of thousands of people each year.  Fear of GMO is causing nations that could use this product to refuse it.

Comment #4: pablo  on  06/28  at  03:39 PM

Here’s a link about it:

http://www.goldenrice.org/

And Amanda, can you disable the autoplay on the embed?

Comment #5: pablo  on  06/28  at  03:40 PM

Chet, I was re-using the term that Amanda introduced. My point, somewhat clumsily made, is just that modern genetic engineering techniques allow wildly different kinds of modifications than older breeding techniques. That’s not necessarily bad; it’s also not necessarily good, especially given the way that this potential is likely to be exploited given the current economic system, for example the patenting and farmer-screwing, as you note, including the duplication of functions that can be accomplished by biodiversity and polyculture.

Comment #6: fluxisrad  on  06/28  at  04:00 PM

There are real, valid, troubling concerns about factory farming and the American food production network. There are real, valid concerns about Monsanto’s legal patents on GMO foods. But it’s simply going to be impossible to make any progress on these concerns until people educate themselves about biology, and stop repeating senseless, scientifically invalid nonsense propagated by the anti-“frankenfood” crowd.

This is making me rethink my views, never fear, but to play the devil’s advocate, I don’t think it’s all that surprising that people don’t trust GMO food. It’s probably less a result of fearmongers doing a good job than the shadiness of agribusiness as a whole.

I also don’t think it’s impossible to make progress on real concerns until people are more educated . . . I think people should be educated based upon the progress being made on the concerns. If we KNOW Company A is doing Evil Thing B while claiming to do Good Thing C, why should people have any faith in Good Thing C in the face of Evil Thing B?

Comment #7: David B.  on  06/28  at  04:01 PM

pablo, vitamin A deficiency can also be prevented by enriching sugar (very common in Latin America) or by growing a relatively small quantity of greens, yams, or squashes per person per year. While I understand that it might be very useful in refugee camp situations, and it’s one more tool in the toolbox, if you look at the Golden Rice Project website it’s also obviously meant as propaganda. I am not very strict on the GMO thing - my concerns actually parallel Amanda’s pretty exactly - but when the developers have called everyone who doesn’t like their project ignorant technophobes in the first two paragraphs (and insinuated that they’re standing in the way of stopping the Holocaust) I start to wonder if nutrition is actually their point.

I have been involved in “improved seed” projects - though from the easier place of being a project observer, not promoter - and it is extremely, extremely complicated to produce an “improved” seed that’s worth, pardon my Anglo-Saxon, shit to farmers in marginalized subsistence situations. Doable, but it requires on-the-ground agricultural extensionists/farmer-researchers who know local conditions intimately and can grow test plots without needing to pull up the whole farm. I have seen one short-season corn project succeed glowingly and one corn and one bean project collapse entirely for these reasons. One Vitamin A enriched rice variety is going to be pretty marginally useful to small farmers, though it might be very useful to large agricultural businesses.

I am very pleased that this movie seems to care as much about the people growing the food as the people eating it and will put it on my to-watch list for sure. I did farmworker outreach for a while in a Tyson region. Tyson in particular is a bad scene. And let’s not forget Smithfield Foods and the sudden step-up of ICE activity right when their meatpacking workers were supposed to have a union election.

Comment #8: purpleshoes  on  06/28  at  04:15 PM

No, if golden rice were truly meant to be a humanitarian gift, then it would be released into the public domain, or copylefted, rather than provisionally licensed. The current licenses can be revoked at any time, and so there remains the profit opportunity of getting nations hooked on a monoculture of golden rice and then raising the price. If there were no intention to do this in the future, then golden rice could be made public domain today. Until such time, the intellectual property holders can be fairly assumed to have the worst intentions; they always do in every other endeavor.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/GEessays/goldenricehoax.html

Comment #9: asdf  on  06/28  at  04:24 PM

See, Chet, it’s like this.

We know that “altered DNA” is, by itself, not the problem.  It’s all sugars.  So please don’t paint us as concerned about that - that’s a strawman.

It’s the stuff it expresses in the food we’re dubious about.  Now, you claim large amounts of Bacillus thuringiensis insecticides actually produced in the plants are harmless to people, and the science seems to back you up.  But here’s the thing - we don’t want to eat them if we don’t have to.

We don’t see any particular reason why we should eat any GMO food when we can eat non-GMO food just as well simply because it makes more profits for an American agri-company.  I don’t mind if you stick a big “contains GMO” label on them and sell them cheaper, and compete that way, but your companies don’t.  They want to sell it at the same or higher prices than the stuff I get from farmers markets, and they don’t want to tell me what I’m eating.

I choose to not eat GMO because I see no reason to do so, and I’m dubious about the reassurances of any American company in search of a profit.  Maybe it’s 99% certain not to hurt me and I’m being irrational - why exactly should I not have the choice?  The attempts by your government to require us and Europe to import them without labels get right up our noses.

Comment #10: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/28  at  04:25 PM

It’s simply cheaper in terms of time and money to feed a family of 4 on McDonald’s hamburgers than to feed them fresh fruit and vegetables served with low-fat complex carbs and lean proteins.

I think that’s only true because so many people don’t know how to shop, eat, or cook.  Look at the menu at McDonald’s.  It’s gonna be a minimum of $3 to feed someone.  $12 a person.  Even if I go to the neighborhood grocer with jacked up prices, rather than the chain discounter, I can get the stuff for a great meal and have some change.  You’ll come out even better if you hit the local store that caters to immigrants.  I picked up the most awesome bitter melon last weekend at the Asian market for two for a buck.  Dropped $2.50 for a pound of pork they ground there in front of me and I had stuffed bitter melon on the grill with grilled broccoli and pineapple.  I spent fourteen and some change and fed six.

Comment #11: Spooky Skeptic  on  06/28  at  04:41 PM

It’s really difficult for me to come at the GMO question from an angle other than the one that’s presented to me in the classroom and the lab. I’m a biologist, and a conservation biologist at that, so we get a lot worked up about monoculture and the loss of biodiversity caused by severe selective breeding, artificial pollination, and all that jazz. Modern corn, for example, can’t grow on it’s own anymore, it needs to be pollinated by humans. Without us, it’s gone. And for a lot of people that’s probably no big deal, the corn’s here for us, and we’ll always be here to make sure there’s more corn. But the world is poorer for it when every tomato is the same tomato, and I feel like that’s similar to forcing animals to eat things they aren’t supposed to. Maybe the plant can’t feel the way animals can, but it’s related to that cycle and that mindset. I realise that gene splicing can be used to make a thousand different kinds of tomatoes but generally that’s not what we see happening. Instead, everything needs to be bigger and prettier, not healthier and tastier. If it was, maybe I wouldn’t feel so eeked out about it, but I do.

Comment #12: WP  on  06/28  at  04:42 PM

Imagine, for example, if all the research that went into terminator genes (that make it impossible to save seed) had gone into pest-resistance or halotolerance or something like that…

Comment #13: paul  on  06/28  at  04:43 PM

Patenting an organism is patently absurd. Best case scenario, these laws will mean the feudal enslavement of most of humanity.

Comment #14: asdf  on  06/28  at  04:50 PM

I agree that it’s more than a little dangerous to devalue science, but that didn’t bother me so much in In Defense of Food because Pollan is trying to (over?)correct for over-valuing science in the food arena. 
I haven’t seen Food, Inc. yet but Defense comes across as a book that is trying to replace other books in an extremely popular genre: follow these steps to healthy eating!  So a lot of its structure is driven by that:  Want three easy rules for eating?  Here they are.  Want to know how to make supermarket choices?  Here are some tips.  And in your brain replace “emphasis on nutrition” with “emphasis on whole foods.”  The rejection of scientifically developed foods is part of that argument, with the rationale that nutritional science claims an expertise it doesn’t have in isolating the “good” bits of food from “bad” bits.

Myself I prefer more moderation and accuracy in arguments - “I’m saying this, not this” “This is not universally true but it is true in this instance” and so forth - but I’ve been told that kind of writing is very boring, so I can see why Pollan would choose or be encouraged to go the polemic route.

Comment #15: Tanglethis  on  06/28  at  05:27 PM

WP, what gets me is the thing where the highest-production variety can only exist in a certain kind of environment, so instead of making a bunch of adaptive varieties we basically just bash at the farming environment until it fits the needs of that particular variety.

Comment #16: purpleshoes  on  06/28  at  05:27 PM

I recommend Trust Us, We’re Experts. http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-1585421391-0
The science here also encompasses “market research” and other ways of manipulating public opinion.

Comment #17: kajey  on  06/28  at  05:42 PM

My background in biology and ecology is effectively non-existent, so I realize I’m speaking from ignorance, but my biggest problem with genetically modified foods is that the ones in the best position to know whether they do pose any sort of health risks seem to be the corporations which produce them, and I have zero faith in any corporation’s willingness to disclose health issues in its products.  It took us the better part of 40 years to get tobacco companies to admit that cigarettes caused cancer, and another 20 to get tobacco under the auspices of the FDA.  If, god forbid, genetically modified beef or corn or whatever does pose some hidden danger to people who eat it, how many decades will it take to identify the problem and how many decades after that will it take to solve it.

Comment #18: atalex  on  06/28  at  05:48 PM

That golden rice thing really demonstrates to me why there’s a tendency in yuppiefied liberal circles to get bent about things being “unnatural” (how is enriching food natural?—-it’s not, it’s just older) and not enough concern about the plight of people who could use vaccinations and GMO-created vitamin-enriched food.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/28  at  06:07 PM

It’s simply cheaper in terms of time and money to feed a family of 4 on McDonald’s hamburgers than to feed them fresh fruit and vegetables served with low-fat complex carbs and lean proteins.

I think that’s only true because so many people don’t know how to shop, eat, or cook.

That. Is. Bullshit. And it’s really damaging to the cause of getting low-income people better nutrition. We don’t eat crap because we’re stupid or ignorant. We eat crap because we’re poor.

I would be a foodie of the highest water if I had the resources. I absolutely adore to cook and have been known to go practically into a drooling fugue at the sight of a stand of particularly beautiful produce. I’m a penny-pincher extraordinaire and know how to cook practically everything from scratch and could give a lecture (but don’t because I’m not an asshole) on why it’s stupid to pay for sauce mix in an envelope or rice and seasoning in a box.

And my family eats a lot more frozen junk and fast food than I’m comfortable with. Why is that? It’s because I don’t have the time or energy to cook fresh, excellent meals regularly and I don’t have the money to go out to eat someplace that makes healthy meals. Please do not give me “tips” on cooking once a week or freezing things or any other of that stuff; I’ve evolved the biggest repertoire I can of pared-down, simple meals incorporating fresh foods, but when the end of the pay period is getting nearer, the fresh vegetables are running out and I’m exhausted, we eat ramen for lunch and mac & cheese for dinner.

And so do a lot of other families, especially families less fortunate than mine—we have a family car and grocery stores with fresh foods in easy driving distance, and as I say, I do understand bargain shopping, know how to cook and have all the cooking equipment I need.

I love to cook and because of that I know that cooking, especially cooking regularly for a family with kids, is hard work and a tough job. I hate seeing people condescend with crap about how anyone who can’t do it must not “know how to cook or shop”.

Comment #20: kristin  on  06/28  at  06:08 PM

Spooky, that’s really condescending.  Poverty doesn’t make you too stupid to know how to cook.  It does make it hard to afford the equipment, kitchen space, and especially the time to do it.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/28  at  06:09 PM

asdf, it seems to me that the selfish patenting of foods is a different issue than the safety of GMOs.  That someone copyrights a food doesn’t implicate its safety to eat.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/28  at  06:11 PM

Testing that GMO food is safe to eat is pretty simple (simpler than testing drugs, for example.)  I don’t know how much the FDA does currently.  There are environmental/ecological risks, but conventional farming has those troubles too.  The problem is corporations with too much power and no accountability.

Comment #23: Tree  on  06/28  at  06:18 PM

Golden rice is the worst example of “positive tech”.

Put simply, people don’t need golden rice—they need to be able to grow their own foods.  The global markets don’t let them grow their own foods because that makes entrenched parties have less profits of labor.

Comment #24: shah8  on  06/28  at  06:33 PM

saving and reusing seed, a money-saving strategy

That’s “saving and using seed, the basis of agriculture, dating back 10,000 years.”

Time poverty is also usually accompanied by physical and mental exhaustion. I’ve seen people come back from a long working day to a well-stocked fridge and larder, and decide to eat popcorn for dinner because they can’t think of what to do with the ingredients in front of them.

Comment #25: pseudonymous in nc  on  06/28  at  06:39 PM

Ok, the GMO thing.  Here’s the problem with it -
1) the terminator gene.  Which means that subsistence farmers can’t save seed.  I personally believe that Monsanto is bent on there being NO alternative to their product.  The problem with their strategy is that they have sued - successfully - or threatened to - and had entire seed stocks destroyed.  Read some Vandana Shiva about the situation in India for this one.  Having only a few lines of seed is a problem.  Further, those patented lines are not necessarily that good.

Another problem is that the hybrids can be less nutritionally varied and satisfying.  One recent project that showed some promise was testing heirloom Native American corn.  Seems there is something in the older corn that doesn’t contribute to diabetes or prevents it in some way. 

2)Kristin, I’m going to say this again, not to be condescending, but because it seems to be an (modern) American mindset.  We are fixated on variety and (over)choices. (Think our closets here, too.  Lots and lots and lots of cheap stuff - so that we NEVER wear the same thing two days in a row, and often wash it between each wearing - disposable clothes.  That’s not the way it is in Europe.  People there buy very good quality but wear it two or three days, then launder it.  It lasts longer that way, and you need smaller closets.)  The question of dinner becomes not what do you want for dinner, but that we need to have the ingredients to cook Italian, Chinese, French and Mexican in our kitchens all the time.  That gets to be expensive.  Furthermore, heaven forbid, that we eat the same thing today as yesterday.  When you think like that, cooking is a chore.  I was raised by two Depression era parents.  Yep, you can cook one large pot of X and eat it for2-3 days.  And before someone says, “but the kids won’t”  sorry, those same kids will eat pizza or McD’s five nights per week, right?  And we need to think the five food groups on a weekly, not a daily basis.
And fresh doesn’t have to mean fresh, freezing can be just as good if the freezing and thawing processes are done right.  If anyone wants to know, I have two ways to do that that can save you a whole bunch of time and cash on corn and tomatoes - no blanching. 

2b) Amanda, agreed, it’s not being poor that makes folks not know how to cook.  It’s in some cases the idea that you NEED all that equipment or knowledge.  There is/was? a great program called the Expanded Food and Nutrition Education program.  Teaches people how to use stuff you have - no measuring cup, borrow a set and mark a glass jar.  No rolling pin, use a pop or wine bottle filled with water or sand and cork it. 

Actually, poor folks’ food is really good, and there’s a whole lot of parts of a steer or hog that is really good and cheap (my processor can’t give away neckbones but ask most elderly African American woman about them and they’ll wax poetic about their favorite recipe.)  Tongue, liver, same, homemade beef soup - ditto.  Fresh vegetables are the same - our repertoire, Kristen, tends to the fragile stars - tomatoes, beans, peas.  But there are lots of things, lettuce in pots that we can grow, greens, okra, kale, cabbage, dried beans, and root veggies that many people tend to overlook.   

Natural - remember the breastfeeding versus formula, Amanda?  Even after improved, enriched, fortified versions, breastmilk is still nutritionally superior.  The same with grass versus corn for cattle.  Evolution was a damn slow process.  We still haven’t found the smaller testing that accounts for ALL the nutrients.  Think phyto X that has just been “discovered” and measured. 

John Muir was right - “when I tugged on one thing in nature, I discovered it was connected to everything else.”  That’s the basis of the natural is better - because when we mess with one thing, it upsets the entire web and there is no way to coordinate all those human/scientific/manipulative tugs as nature and evolution have done over eons.

Other interesting reads: The agricultural books of Louis Bromfield, like Out of the Earth or Pleasant Valley.  If you’re in Ohio, you can still visit Malabar Farm.

OK, off soapbox.

Comment #26: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  06:48 PM

Time poverty is also usually accompanied by physical and mental exhaustion. I’ve seen people come back from a long working day to a well-stocked fridge and larder, and decide to eat popcorn for dinner because they can’t think of what to do with the ingredients in front of them.
pseudonymous in nc on 06/28 at 05:39 PM

Yes.  But I think part of that is that we overbuy because it’s an unpleasant hassle to go to the grocery store.  Cooking is a chore instead of a creative experience.  And then we feel guilty when we throw out the spoiled green pepper or whatever.  Popcorn for dinner is OK once in a while, right? But not when it costs you teh popcorn (and the spoiled pepper and the rotten tomato, etc.)

Comment #27: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  06:52 PM

That golden rice thing really demonstrates to me why there’s a tendency in yuppiefied liberal circles to get bent about things being “unnatural” (how is enriching food natural?—-it’s not, it’s just older)

That’s definitely true. This has been said a couple of times in this thread, but there is a tendency in certain wings of environmentalism and conservationism and whatnot to hold up “nature” as an irrefutable authority. Their definition of nature tends to exclude humans (ie, anything we do is unnatural, though they tend to be inconsistent in applying this standard), while I would argue that this human-exclusive view of nature is exactly what has allowed humans to trash the environment in the first place.

Imagine, for example, if all the research that went into terminator genes

Terminator genes are a frequent boogeyman for anti-GMO people. They do have a legitimate use: letting genetically modified DNA run loose and get busy with the wild flora could have unpredictable results, and is best avoided.

Comment #28: Triplanetary  on  06/28  at  07:06 PM

That isn’t to say that Mansanto doesn’t do evil shit with their GM crops, and they definitely use terminator genes as one of their tools for doing so, but the concept of terminator genes isn’t inherently evil. It’s used evilly, but that could be said of a lot of morally neutral things.

Comment #29: Triplanetary  on  06/28  at  07:08 PM

{pedantic asshole}Monsanto’s seed isn’t “copyrighted”; it’s “patented”. There is a huge legal difference between those forms of intellectual property, which includes (1) that you don’t even have to know you are infringing a patent to be liable for patent infringement and (2) there is no right of “fair use” of a patent.{/pedantic asshole}

Comment #30: PhysioProf  on  06/28  at  07:09 PM

The other problem with much GMO stuff (from what I’ve read) and even the conventionally hybridized but patented seed is that it takes much more water and fertilizer input than non-human evolved or indigenous breeding.  A MAJOR problem in a world quickly confronting water shortages.

Comment #31: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  07:29 PM

Intellectual property law is manipulated as a tool for the implementation of a narrowly profitable monoculture, and the monoculture is unsafe, for the environment and for human health.

Like Vandana Shiva said in the article I linked above, “the reason there is vitamin A deficiency in India in spite of the rich biodiversity a base and indigenous knowledge base in India is because the Green Revolution technologies wiped out biodiversity by converting mixed cropping systems to monocultures of wheat and rice and by spreading the use of herbicides which destroy field greens.”

Golden rice is unhealthy, because it provides relatively little vitamin A while simultaneously replacing more diverse crops that provide more vitamin A and the fats necessary to absorb vitamin A.

asdf, it seems to me that the selfish patenting of foods is a different issue than the safety of GMOs.  That someone copyrights a food doesn’t implicate its safety to eat.

It will, even more directly than the examples I’ve given here, if the agricultural industry succeeds in following the legal direction pioneered by the software industry. It’s illegal to reverse engineer certain anti-circumvention technologies now, and this chilling effect has dangerous implications for your computer’s security.

If you think the agriculture industry already goes to unethical lengths to stifle criticism, know that they would prefer to make it illegal to even study the safety of their products, and thanks to DRM there is some precedent for such a move. I’m not saying it’s already covered under the DMCA, but it’s becoming more plausible.

Comment #32: asdf  on  06/28  at  07:40 PM

Cooking is a chore instead of a creative experience.

But it shouldn’t have to be either. That kind of basic cooking—see rice, see vegetables, think risotto; chop, stir and chill out for 20 minutes—can become as familiar as tying your shoes when you’ve done it often enough. But if you’re tired and can’t see a 15/20-minute path from ingredients to meal, then you seek out the instant option.

Comment #33: pseudonymous in nc  on  06/28  at  07:50 PM

The law and the technology are not independent issues. To understand the resistance to GMO technologies, we have to talk about the law.

Triplanetary mentions that terminator seed technology is not inherently dangerous. That’s largely correct, assuming conditions where we never have to make use of the Svalbard seed vault. But where do we actually find terminator seeds? Always paired with patents, government-granted monopolies. So terminator seeds become a technology for keeping third-world farmers in a cycle of poverty, where they cannot save seeds from year to year, beholden to the whims of unaccountable multinational corporations in a new feudalism.

Terminator seeds could be a positive technology in a radically different world where the balance of power was revolutionarily overturned. Until then, they are deadly.

Comment #34: asdf  on  06/28  at  07:51 PM

Amanda,

To me,  the biggest problem with golden rice is that it attacks a serious problem—malnutrition—with a very fragile solution. If your area can’t grow golden rice, if something evolves to attack golden rice, then people are not just vitamin A deficient, they’re starving. A better solution would be to find a variety of crops that can be easily grown in the affected areas and then to send the people there free seeds and training in growing and nutrition. Diversifying their food would also help protect them from future food shortages or crop-failures.

Also, when the vast bulk of your calories come from a single source, it becomes very important that this source be as tasty as possible. My memory is that one of the big complaints for people who would “benefit” from golden rice was that it didn’t taste good. I realize that taste seems pretty silly when someone is malnourished, but since there is literally NO REASON why these people can’t have tasty food, it seems dehumanizing to deny them this simple thing.

My biggest fear of GMO crops is the unintended consequences. When you are breeding corn to corn, there’s usually a limit as to how bad you can fuck things up. But what if the gene you splice in goes somewhere in the genome it shouldn’t be? Then what? I’m not okay with a procedure that has so few safeties; it’s only a matter of time before things go grossly wrong.

Finally, nature is a border-line chaotic system in the mathematical sense. It’s so complex that as humans we ALWAYS forget, dismiss, don’t notice, or can’t measure something that is ultimately terribly important. Irish potato famine: couldn’t have happened in Peru because the natives have always grown dozens of varieties. They still do so that blight won’t kill them. But the Europeans who went to Peru, saw possibility in potatoes, learned how to grow them, and brought them back to feed the poor (because the wealthy wouldn’t eat them) didn’t realize the natives *knew* how to grow only a single kind and CHOSE not to.

I am suggesting that changes need to be carefully made, and that the further from “nature” a process is in food production, the higher the likelyhood of brand-new “unforeseeable” problems. I’ll grant, no one may have thought about the chance that high-fructose corn syrup in *everything* would cause health problems that could topple the national health, but they should have realized that a massive and yes, unnatural, change in eating habits wasn’t going to be all roses.

Comment #35: wreckerofplans  on  06/28  at  07:58 PM

I am suggesting that changes need to be carefully made, and that the further from “nature” a process is in food production, the higher the likelyhood of brand-new “unforeseeable” problems.

It’s getting trendy to react to mentions of “nature” as though it’s woo, so I’d like to elaborate. The point being made is that of course there are problems everywhere, but natural selection is a problem-solving algorithm that has already worked out many earlier kinks. We are adapted to the pre-industrial environment, but we cannot arbitrarily change the environment without introducing new dangers which we may not be adapted to.

Comment #36: asdf  on  06/28  at  08:10 PM

Thank you, asdf.

My dad’s a physicist by training so I’m not (and try not to be) part of the “woo” crowd. I guess that’s what I was trying to express with the “chaos” bit. Don’t reinvent the wheel!

Comment #37: wreckerofplans  on  06/28  at  08:16 PM

Just out of curiosity, I’d like to know where Amanda gets her qualifications to speak on the subject of agriculture.

Particularly when the pesticies genetically placed IN the food are known nerve toxins.

WRONG. No. The very first comment out of the gate, of course, is filled with nonsense. This is not the mode of action of cry proteins. Cry proteins block absorption of nutrients in the gut, and they are only active at pH values that are present in larval guts. So, guess what they do to a mammal? NOTHING. Not only that, but the proteins are expressed in very specific parts of the plant, such as the roots.

The other problem with much GMO stuff (from what I’ve read) and even the conventionally hybridized but patented seed is that it takes much more water and fertilizer input than non-human evolved or indigenous breeding.

More nonsense. Crops are specifically bred to be drought-tolerant and to grow in nutrient-poor soil. And it works. You would know this if you’d actually seen drought-tolerant cultivars in the field next to other cultivars.

it seems to me that the selfish patenting of foods is a different issue than the safety of GMOs.

Yeah, scientists are such assholes they refuse to work for free.

I’m not sure humans have evolved to eat DNA-spliced food as described by fluxisrad and KMTBERRY.

This doesn’t even make any sense. There is so much fail in this sentence I don’t even know where to start.

Comment #38: Entomologista  on  06/28  at  08:16 PM

Just out of curiosity, I’d like to know where Amanda gets her qualifications to speak on the subject of agriculture.

I like the implication that the rabble are not allowed to have reservations about widespread practices that affect their lives.

Comment #39: asdf  on  06/28  at  08:24 PM

Well, Entomologista, I know that until about 100 years ago, humans consumed NO petroleum products, while the celery has been eaten… for about ever. I’m not all that keen on putting brand-spanking new things into *my* system of *any* origin.

Provide a system with choices, don’t force my eating habits.

Comment #40: wreckerofplans  on  06/28  at  08:27 PM

it seems to me that the selfish patenting of foods is a different issue than the safety of GMOs.

Yeah, scientists are such assholes they refuse to work for free.

You are defending corporate capitalism, not scientists’ paychecks. It’s entirely possible to get useful research by government funding of projects that are then released to the whole of humanity: public funding for the public domain.

It shouldn’t be legal to patent an organism in the first place; natural selection did most of the work, not scientists, and the whole of humanity are the rightful inheritors of that “intellectual property,” if anyone is.

Comment #41: asdf  on  06/28  at  08:30 PM

Gah. I was almost beginning to think that people were being too anti-technology here (it’s not really science we’re talking about, it’s applications of it) until I saw Entomologista’s post.

Not just the tone, but the arguments that went with it. For example, no mention of whether the work to make plants drought-resistant is conventional breeding (which has been going on for millennia) or the specific splicing of genes from drought-tolerant but unrelated plants into interesting food plants. Or the flame about patents when seed companies have been doing profitable business for centuries without the kind of protection implied by patents and terminator genes.

Idunno how we got to this point, but I sense that people at Monsanto and ADM are giggling joyfully to see threads like this, because it means that their attempts to frame all this as “science vs. anti-science” have worked, and the idea of a bunch of corporate malefactors perverting essentially neutral technology to maximize management salaries and shareholder dividends has silently vanished into the background.

Comment #42: paul  on  06/28  at  08:39 PM

it’s a good thing to develop a plant that resists pests, making pesticide unnecessary.

Except some plants protect themselves from pests by being poisonous.  What’s to keep some fool corporation from splicing those genes into the corn genome, and what’s to guarantee that the final result isn’t poisonous to us?

Comment #43: keshmeshi  on  06/28  at  08:45 PM

Another good book, this time a novel, related to this issue of monocultures and seed saving. All Over Creation by Ruth Ozeki. Not saying it is all accurate, but it gets you thinking….

Comment #44: kajey  on  06/28  at  09:14 PM

Argue with Vandana Shiva then Entomologista: “high-profit, water-intensive crops replace the drought-resistant ones that had been selected and bred over centuries to suit local habitats.”

above from page 108 of Water Wars, here 2004 book.

Comment #45: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  09:14 PM

Further Entomologista, in order to be profitable, fencerow to fencerow needs to be planted in patented monocrop farms.  Bromfiel0d pointed out the problem with this back in the 1940’s.  NO habitat for birds (as in hedgerows) which are a natural control of many pests.  Further large open fields intensify wind evaporation and erosion. 

And you’re the one who is condescending now.  Yes, I’ve seen (and grown) drought resistant cultivars.  But is that what Monsanto is doing?  No.  They’re not propagating naturally drought tolerant ones and getting them to places that need them.  They’re working to sell seed that MUST HAVE more intensive inputs that Monsanto sells.  If agriculture were a human, this is like Pepsi also being the purveyor of insulin - cause type two diabetes so you can also sell the cure.

Comment #46: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  09:21 PM

“Yeah, scientists are such assholes they refuse to work for free.”

Fail again, Entomologista.  Seed propagators who work to naturally hybridize don’t work for free either.  But there’s a difference between making a living, and making a killing with high wages and enough dirty profit for parasitic investors.  Yes, there are scientists who won’t sell out, but they’re not working for Monsanto and ADM.

Comment #47: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  09:25 PM

Yes, I’ve seen (and grown) drought resistant cultivars.  But is that what Monsanto is doing?  No.

Actually, it is. I’m pretty sure they’re advertising it.

Comment #48: Entomologista  on  06/28  at  09:44 PM

no measuring cup, borrow a set and mark a glass jar.  No rolling pin, use a pop or wine bottle filled with water or sand and cork it.

Oh, great. Now it’s not enough to have to run around finding cheap fresh delicious food and preparing it from scratch, people are also supposed to run around borrowing measuring cups, finding wine bottles and corks, and on and on.

Um yeah. Poor people don’t eat unhealthy food because they’re stupid or lazy or uneducated. Poor people are kept from access to healthy eating by a system that actively profits from the larger system, which keeps them underwaged and overworked and too exhausted to jump through all those hoops.

And this making-huge-pots-of food thing: that works great if you have large cooking pots, and a stove that will boil a huge pot of water, say, without having that alone take hours because your landlord bought the crappy stove with tiny, inefficient burners. You also have to have a fridge big enough to store the big pot of food, and you have to have a place to store the food before it’s prepared—those farmers who ate from the same half a hog all winter had the equipment to cure it and space to store it free from vermin. How many people do you honestly know nowadays who can say that?

Look, I explained it before and I’ll explain it again: the people who have the least money also have the least energy to do things cheaply. All your arguments are variants on “those poor people are lazy and spoiled”.

Remove the systemic obstacles and people will eat good food. While the systemic obstacles are in place, no amount of lecturing will change the way things are.

Comment #49: kristin  on  06/28  at  09:45 PM

GMO crops have already been sent into the wild.  That’s why Monsanto is successful at suing farmers.  That’s why more than half of Mexico’s corn crop has GMO genes in it, yet they don’t allow planting of GMO crops in their country.

But GMO is not inherently worse than hybridizing.  Without GMO we’ve lowered the nutritional value of most broccoli by 30%.  Without GMO we’ve made tomatoes that ripen on the shelf, on the same vine at the same time.  Without GMO we made corn.  It didn’t exist without humans, it can’t exist without humans.

Which was the only thing which annoyed me with the documentary.  It covered many topics, very slowly,which I digested very impatiently, wanting to fill in the blanks around their interviews.

And those chicken farmers?  They had their contracts revoked not because their product was bad, but because they would not follow the meatpackers’ upgrade rules and silence clauses.

Comment #50: Crissa  on  06/28  at  09:54 PM

Yes, there are scientists who won’t sell out, but they’re not working for Monsanto and ADM.

A lot of those people are my friends, mentors, and colleagues. I assure you they aren’t the demon-spawn you think they are. Furthermore, we’re all interconnected. Universities, industry, and the government - we all work together for a common purpose. And if you think that traditional plant breeding methods aren’t employed by companies like Monsanto, you really know very little about the process.

Except some plants protect themselves from pests by being poisonous.  What’s to keep some fool corporation from splicing those genes into the corn genome, and what’s to guarantee that the final result isn’t poisonous to us?

These characteristics have always been taken advantage of by traditional plant breeding.

You are defending corporate capitalism, not scientists’ paychecks. It’s entirely possible to get useful research by government funding of projects that are then released to the whole of humanity: public funding for the public domain

I actually agree with this. The problem is that the government does not fund the majority of scientific research, at least in agriculture.

Comment #51: Entomologista  on  06/28  at  09:55 PM

Funny, you didn’t deal with my complete quote, Entomologista.  Better do some reading in between your shilling chores for Monsanto:
http://www.non-gm-farmers.com/news_print.asp?ID=2829

Comment #52: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  09:58 PM

Argue with Vandana Shiva then Entomologista: “high-profit, water-intensive crops replace the drought-resistant ones that had been selected and bred over centuries to suit local habitats.”

I don’t disagree that landraces have beneficial traits that allow them to grow well in their native climates. That’s why plant breeders often make use of them. High yield cultivars that replace landraces can use more resources, yes. But not every cultivar is the same. Some cultivars are better at drought tolerance, insect resistance, disease resistance, etc. than the landraces. I mean, if landraces were always the best choice and there was no way to improve upon them we wouldn’t have developed plant breeding methods.

Comment #53: Entomologista  on  06/28  at  10:05 PM

Funny, you didn’t deal with my complete quote, Entomologista.  Better do some reading in between your shilling chores for Monsanto:

Keep reading. You’ll notice that I would actually prefer it if most research was publicly funded. Is the for-profit method the best? I don’t pretend to know the answer to that. And there are certainly questionable legal practices that I just don’t know anything about, being a scientist and not a lawyer. I just really don’t like the implication that my friends are evil people because they work for Monsanto, Dow, Pioneer, Syngenta, etc.

Comment #54: Entomologista  on  06/28  at  10:10 PM

Wow, Kristin.  I’m not one of those people who think poor = lazy or poor = ignorant.  I am one of those people who thinks that there are unconventional ways out of a box.  You, on the other hand, do give poor people a bad rap.  Timewise, there is going to be little difference between going to the store and buying a set of measuring cups and using the solution I offered (which BTW, came from the EFNEP program).

That program hired people from the neighborhood as program assistants to teach food and nutrition to those who wanted to learn.  It has been a great success on the order of the second option in “give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.”  On the other hand, you sound as if, when you were starving someone told you they’d teach you to fish, you’d whine about having to pick up a fishing pole, touch a worm, etc. and resent the offer of help. 

Storage?  Again, Depression era parents, the original recyclers.  Vermin proof?  easy popcorn tins, glass jars for grains.  Garage sales.  How the heck large of a pot do you think I mean?  I’m talking two meals instead of one, not soup for 40. 

Poor folks maybe can’t do things like moneyed people can.  Sometimes it takes cooperation.  And yes, it takes some energy - which people have more of if they eat properly You don’t sound very cooperative.  You sound bitter and resentful.  And unwilling to change that, until someone else makes the world perfect.  Frankly Kristin, you sound like the poster child for the lazy, ignorant, poor stereotype.  I don’t think most poor people are that way - as a matter of fact, I know they’re not, because I was raised by one and continue to live with the poor.

Comment #55: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  10:19 PM

I don’t pretend to know the answer to that. And there are certainly questionable legal practices that I just don’t know anything about, being a scientist and not a lawyer. I just really don’t like the implication that my friends are evil people because they work for Monsanto, Dow, Pioneer, Syngenta, etc.
Entomologista on 06/28 at 09:10 PM


But you’re very willing to deny that doing work for a those companies is unethical.  As an ethicist, I’d say you have a responsibility, as do your friends, to understand those legal practices.  Otherwise, just wilful ignorance and it’s selling out ethics for a weekly paycheck.  Which many of us do because we’ll never find a company completely aligned with our ideals.  But at some point, many of us will realize how complicit we are and refuse to continue.

Comment #56: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  10:27 PM

{pedantic asshole}Monsanto’s seed isn’t “copyrighted”; it’s “patented”. There is a huge legal difference between those forms of intellectual property, which includes (1) that you don’t even have to know you are infringing a patent to be liable for patent infringement and (2) there is no right of “fair use” of a patent.{/pedantic asshole}

And THIS is utterly ridiculous and insane.  Prosecuting or suing someone for doing something they didn’t know they were doing is ethically questionable in any circumstances, and significantly more so when nobody is harmed by it, to say nothing of the power imbalance of a megacorporation going after the little guy—-ruining someone’s personal finances to pad their profit margins slightly, to recoup exceedingly minor losses or to recoup money that they failed to swindle from someone with their standard operating procedure.

The two strategies to make use of their seeds mandatory is this—-they’ll sue you if your crop is accidentally fertilized by a neighbor using Monsanto seeds

And THIS—-don’t get me started.  Suffice it to say that I would call this “pollution” and would dearly love to see them countersued for exactly that—-and if they can’t be bothered to keep their product from getting into somebody else’s, I don’t see how they have any business complaining.

Not to mention, they are in no way losing money on it—-that pollen would’ve been lost to them anyway, and they obviously have no problem with it floating off never to be seen again—-and nobody else is gaining anything significant from it than they wouldn’t have had anyway: the other farmer has his harvest just fine without that crossfertilization.  And certainly it’s not a case of “he would’ve paid for it had he not gotten it by accident” that could be used as an argument for getting money from someone.

Seriously, Congress needs to do something on this.  While we’ve got the Democratic, coastal-state-and-urban majority and the beltway farm states are in the minority would be a very good time to act.

Comment #57: Kyra  on  06/28  at  10:31 PM

you sound as if, when you were starving someone told you they’d teach you to fish, you’d whine about having to pick up a fishing pole, touch a worm, etc. and resent the offer of help.

But poor people aren’t spoiled or lazy.

Please, sir, may I have some more?

Comment #58: kristin  on  06/28  at  10:35 PM

Maaaan, this is *such* a wierd and confused thread.

I’m not going to get into the details here but…

1)  Humans have used non-breeding techniques for plants for a very long time.  We wouldn’t have seedless and tasty bananas (or at least very many varieties) without chemical treatment that’s pretty darn harsh.  We still don’t know how corn was actually bred by the mesoamericans.  We have used grafting for non-annuals such that the desired plant takes on the characteristics (invariably chemically as well) of the rootstock.  We are sophisticated about this stuff, and have been for a very long time.

2)  Toxins are very expensive biochemically.  Therefore, just about any plant that is expressing bt or some other toxin for pest relief is going to need much higher amounts of plant food and water (to run the reactions to create the product).  Many dry and desert plants invest in toxins, though, because they could afford to lose very little to pests.

3)  Drought-resistance crops will not ever be a focus for an agricorp.  I have a hardy citrus in my backyard in Atlanta, and it will never give anything more than platable orange-like fruit.  The adaptations that engender cold-hardiness almost directly trades off with productivity and saleable quality.  It’s largely the same with drought resistance for most crops.  Put plain, the value of any grain crop is almost entirely related to how much protein, protein %, and edible mass is put out.  Starchy and sugary materials can be made quite drought tolerant—there is some excitement about hardy sugar-cane, and sugarbeets have always been sucessful in dry and cold areas.  Protein, however, demands fuel and water, no way around it.  Drought-tolerant corn, as what Mosanto is pushing, is almost certain to be worth very little outside of certain niches, and it should be to no one’s surprise that the examples shown so far also has insecide genes.  It’s very likely to be vaporware, like golden rice.

4)  The problems that we are dealing with wrt foods is derived almost entirely from excessive debt and international monetization of food crops.  No amount of technology can help, when everything is setup for extraction of all the value from any farmer, any land, anywheres.

That’s the sort of thing the financial collapse will be good for, eventually.  The financial system is trying to save itself, but I’m near certain we are headed for a general disaster eventually.  But at least some pernicious features will die and maybe not come back.

Comment #59: shah8  on  06/28  at  10:47 PM

While I think some level of genetic engineering, applied biochemistry and industrialization are going to be necessary for food production. I also agree that the way we produce food now is completely insane.

/http://www.gwynnedyer.com/articles/Gwynne Dyer article_Of Pandemics and Pork.txt Gwynne Dyer’s take on it was interesting,industrial agriculture is not just killing our heath through poor diet, it’s also massively increasing the risk of a pandemic, due to the fact that a feedlot is more or less the perfect environment to breed antibiotic/antiviral resistant pathogens.


“[P]ork prices in the United States dropped by one-fifth
between 1970 and 2004, according to the US Department of Agriculture. That
means that factory farming is saving the average American consumer $29 a year,
or about $2.40 a month. What’s the risk of a lethal global pandemic compared
to savings like that?”

IMHO Banning the non-specific animal use of antibiotics and antivirals and banning imports from any country that doesn’t would be a very good start, since most of these practices would not work without the ability to keep epidemic diseases in high density populations under control.

Comment #60: Grimgrin  on  06/28  at  10:59 PM

A lot of those people are my friends, mentors, and colleagues. I assure you they aren’t the demon-spawn you think they are.

I assure you you’re misunderstanding or misrepresenting everyone here, if you thought that was a reasonable comment to make.

Furthermore, we’re all interconnected. Universities, industry, and the government - we all work together for a common purpose.

Industry and private universities work for exactly one purpose: profit. Everything else is subordinate. There can be incidental benefits to capitalist markets, but let’s not be naive; any other benefits are purely unintended consequences of profit-seeking. Everyone from Karl Marx to Milton Friedman agrees on this much.

Insofar as government supports this practice by appropriating public funds to subsidize research that leads to privately held patents, government is failing to do its job. The role of government is supposed to be to serve the whole of the people, not serve a few private interests at the expense of the public. Government is the only tool the people have to regulate corporations that would otherwise be completely unaccountable private tyrannies.

So government is not supposed to be working on the side of industry. That’s a sign that the system is unbalanced or broken, and the public trust is being raided.

Comment #61: asdf  on  06/28  at  11:02 PM

You are defending corporate capitalism, not scientists’ paychecks. It’s entirely possible to get useful research by government funding of projects that are then released to the whole of humanity: public funding for the public domain

I actually agree with this. The problem is that the government does not fund the majority of scientific research, at least in agriculture.

And as long as you defend the patent system as a tolerable substitute or stopgap, then that’s all you’ll get.

If you agree that public funding for the public domain would be preferable, then it’s counterproductive to reply with “yeah, scientists are such assholes they refuse to work for free” when someone criticizes the current system.

Comment #62: asdf  on  06/28  at  11:07 PM

This conversation about food (and really all conversations about food) misses a drastic point. There are almost 7 billion mouths to feed on the planet. In four decades there will likely be 10 billion of us. No one knows the natural carrying capacity of the Earth but I think most of us agree it is below 10 billion. This lack of capacity is more pronounced when you realize that huge chunks of us live in areas completely incapable (due to arid conditions, poor soil, crappy governments and a repressive economic system) of supporting the human population. The human population will continue to rise (we like to fuck) so we all somehow need to figure out how to feed people. Alternatively we could eliminate 4 billion people but I personally don’t think that is a palatable idea….

If we have passed the natural carrying capacity of Earth we need to enhance our food yields and improve our food distribution. How to do that is a discussion that raises the most basic passions.

People take a criticism of the food they eat as a personal affront. We have all heard wingnuts from the right scream about “bean sprout eating tofu heads.” We likewise have heard the moral superiority of the “I don’t eat anything with a face” crowd. It is easy, with a full belly, to denounce another person’s food choices. It is much more difficult to craft a solution which feeds us all (that’s 7 billion and counting).

Now I am a good cook and can whip even the most basic of foods into a meal fit for Henry VIII. It is easy for me to claim it is cheaper to cook your own than eat at McDonalds. I do, however, have some luxuries which most humans do not have. I live within four blocks of three groceries. One is a standard American supermarket, one a standard American health food store and one a standard American upscale market. It is easy for me to buy fresh and healthy food at an affordable price. Not everyone has this luxury. Not two miles northeast of me is an American supermarket in a decidedly lower class community. Interestingly, while the same chain, blocks from my house, has fresh produce and an adequate butcher, this chain’s store, no more than 16 blocks distant, has poor quality produce and prepackaged unpleasant looking meat. Hmm…If I were a lesser cook and not blessed with a lifestyle where I could devote time to cooking, McDonalds would look quite attractive compared to the offerings at this store.

And this example is just America. How many humans live a mile or more from potable water? How many watch as their local long grain rice is flown to distant markets while they wait (while starving) for a lesser quality import? More I am sure than many of us internet-connected-progressives would like to admit.

GMOs and agribusiness are both double-edged swords. Sure it might be better for us all to shop “organic and local” but all 7 billion of us cannot do that. By the end of my life there will be 10 billion mouths to feed on this planet. We will not all grow our own food. (I live in Colorado. If I only bought local nine months out of the year I would be limited to winter wheat, sugar beets and beef. Hey, I’m all for eating local but I’m not a big fan of scurvy.)

We need enhanced food.

Drought resistant crops resistant to disease? Great!

Economics of scale used to distribute food? Hell Yea!

Modifying crops so they don’t go to seed and seed needs to be purchased year after year? That’s scummy. 

Factory farms that exploit workers and transmit disease? Unconscionable.

These however are the dilemmas we face. How do we feed over 10,000,000,000 people? That is the most important question we have to answer over the next decades. And we aren’t going to do it with backyard gardens. There will be 10 billion humans on this planet in our lives. I’m an idealist. I think we all should eat.

How do we do it?

Comment #63: Colorado Dave  on  06/28  at  11:54 PM

You’re an idealist, and yet you claim that people who don’t eat animals are only concerned with feeling morally superior to you.

Comment #64: asdf  on  06/29  at  12:10 AM

asdf:

O read the whole thing.

Comment #65: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:12 AM

asdf:

Got an idea? 10 billion hungry people are waiting.

Comment #66: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:14 AM

How do we feed over 10,000,000,000 people? That is the most important question we have to answer over the next decades. And we aren’t going to do it with backyard gardens. There will be 10 billion humans on this planet in our lives. I’m an idealist. I think we all should eat.

How do we do it?

At present, by stripmining petrochemicals.  And we’ve passed peak on those.  I don’t think there’s a way around that.

Comment #67: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/29  at  12:14 AM

At present, by stripmining petrochemicals.

Wow are you a cynic.

So, there is no hope and we are doomed? Cool. Let’s chat on the Internet while Rome burns.

Comment #68: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:17 AM

Subsistence farmers wouldn’t buy seeds that they can’t replant.  They don’t intentionally buy seeds they can’t replant.  See Mexico.  But because there’s no terminator on them, they are replanting GMO they’re not allowed to and don’t want to.  It sucks.

Comment #69: Crissa  on  06/29  at  12:20 AM

O read the whole thing.

I did, and your sniping was entirely out of place. In a thread that was not about vegetarians, you invented an opportunity to bring them up and bash them. This is lazy, antisocial, and gratuitous.

Got an idea? 10 billion hungry people are waiting.

No, I do not have an idea. I expect widespread starvation if we do not (hopefully voluntarily) reverse population growth. That doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to mention that you’re unnecessarily being a jerk.

Comment #70: asdf  on  06/29  at  12:22 AM

Crissa:

I’m not an expert but from my understanding many GMOs are engineered to never seed. That is a big part of the problem with GMOs.

Comment #71: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:24 AM

asdf:

ummm Reversing population growth sounds pretty horrific to me. But I guess I’m the jerk….

Comment #72: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:26 AM

Alternatively we could eliminate 4 billion people but I personally don’t think that is a palatable idea….

It’s going to happen one way or another.  Either we voluntarily quit reproducing so quickly, or war and famine will take care of it for us.

Comment #73: Cornpone Down Under  on  06/29  at  12:28 AM

<i>asdf: I did, and your sniping was entirely out of place. In a thread that was not about vegetarians, you invented an opportunity to bring them up and bash them. This is lazy, antisocial, and gratuitous.<//i>

I was simply pointing out how discussions of food strike a personal chord (contrasting with the “Beef it’s whats for dinner crowd think (“bean sprout eating tofu heads.” ) I didn’t single out vegans. I was simply showing how neither vegans nor the red meat carnivores think outside their own dinner plate.

Thanks for proving my point.

Comment #74: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:31 AM

ummm Reversing population growth sounds pretty horrific to me.

Yeah, Germany is a pretty horrific place to live.

But I guess I’m the jerk….

Is it really too much for me to ask that you not gratuitously degrade well-intentioned and generally decent people? Too much to ask that we have some respect for each other, or at least a détente?

Comment #75: asdf  on  06/29  at  12:33 AM

Cornpone Down Under: It’s going to happen one way or another.  Either we voluntarily quit reproducing so quickly, or war and famine will take care of it for us.

Wow, sounds horrible, we cant avoid this some way huh?

Comment #76: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:33 AM

asdf:

Hey, I am not degrading well-intentioned and generally decent people. I am saying that the dilemmas we face will test even the most well-intentioned and decent amongst us.

There are a lot of us. I think that is a good thing. I just hope that we figure out a way for all of us to enjoy the choices we in the west take for granted.

Comment #77: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:38 AM

“It’s largely the same with drought resistance for most crops.  Put plain, the value of any grain crop is almost entirely related to how much protein, protein %, and edible mass is put out.  Starchy and sugary materials can be made quite drought tolerant—there is some excitement about hardy sugar-cane, and sugarbeets have always been sucessful in dry and cold areas.  Protein, however, demands fuel and water, no way around it.  Drought-tolerant corn, as what Mosanto is pushing, is almost certain to be worth very little outside of certain niches,”

True, and one of those is ethanol and biodiesel corn and other corn derivatives, like HFCS, and corn starch non edible products which is what is fueling the corn race.  The profit margins for oil and ethanol corn are much higher than for dent corn.

Comment #78: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  12:41 AM

So, asdf,

In 2040 there will be 9 billion of us.

How do we survive?

I don’t know but I understand if we are all to eat we will need a broadbased solution that we, right now, do not have.

Comment #79: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:42 AM

Wow, sounds horrible, we cant avoid this some way huh?

Yes, we can avoid it: “we voluntarily quit reproducing so quickly.”

There is no other bloodless option. Until we convince people to achieve negative population growth, everything else is delaying the inevitable. Find a way to feed 10 billion people, they will breed another 5 billion. Find a way to feed 15 billion, soon enough it’ll be 20. Eventually there will be a point when the ideas run out, and our finite resources are exhausted. Then there will be famine, and probably war.

Hey, I am not degrading well-intentioned and generally decent people.

Yes, you are: ‘We likewise have heard the moral superiority of the “I don’t eat anything with a face” crowd.’

It was a gratuitous insult. A common enough one that it’s getting to be tedious.

So, asdf, In 2040 there will be 9 billion of us. How do we survive?

I already told you, I don’t know. I suspect 6 billion is already unsustainable in the long run.

Comment #80: asdf  on  06/29  at  12:46 AM

asdf:

Did you have diner tonight?

....

Comment #81: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:47 AM

I fed on the blood of white Christian children, as usual.

Comment #82: asdf  on  06/29  at  12:51 AM

asdf:

`I wish to be left alone,’’ said Scrooge. ``Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.’‘

“Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.”

“If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

Cool imagery

Comment #83: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  12:58 AM

I suspect 6 billion is already unsustainable in the long run.

6 billion with a standard of living equal to that of the West is certainly unsustainable.  Either we start making fewer people or we take a serious nosedive wrt standard of living.  Probably both will happen.

Comment #84: Cornpone Down Under  on  06/29  at  12:59 AM

Colorado Dave:

Thanks for your post, it neatly sums up my thinking on the issue, far better than I could express it.

http://www.nh.gov/nhsl/ww2/images/ww10.jpg

Fixing the health of food is fairly simple. Stop subsidizing people who produce unhealthy food, and start subsidizing those who do. (Yes, and an atomic bomb is just banging to rocks together, I know). See above for the kind of mindset we need.

I only have one more suggestion about the way we produce food, and that is to phase in a total moratorium on wild offshore fisheries. Total, as in, offshore fishermen (and I say this as someone who’se uncle and grandfather were both commercial fishermen) are Hostis humani generis, and treated as such. Any sea based proteins have to come from aquaculture. Because we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as fish stocks are concerned, and once they go, we’re going to have a massive ecological crisis, and more to the point, we’re going to have to find a way to come up with 93 million tons of high quality animal protein for people to eat.

IMHO the crisis we’re facing, really, isn’t about food at all. It’s more basic than that. We’re facing a crisis in energy. Given enough cheap energy and we can do whatever the hell you want, we can create vertical gardens and desalinization plants and synthetic fertilizers anything else you need to increase the amount of food we produce to wherever it needs to be. Since we’re unlikely to have scads of cheap energy, we need to figure out how to make food more energy efficient. And this may not mean ‘grow local’, it may very well be more efficient to ship food across country or overseas rather than to expend the energy needed to grow food in unsuitable climates. It may also be that the only way to create crops that do not require the kind of fertilizer and pesticide input we’ve traditionally used is to genetically modify them.

Basically fix energy and we fix food, if we can’t fix energy, fixing food becomes more difficult.

Oh, and fuck bioethanol.

Comment #85: Grimgrin  on  06/29  at  01:00 AM

Dickens is good for so many things.

Comment #86: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  01:00 AM

Grimgrin

With friends like you….

Comment #87: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  01:01 AM

“If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

Nope. This implies that I think some particular group makes up the “surplus.”

Germany today has negative population growth by voluntary means, Dave. What’s wrong with that? I hear it’s a pretty okay place to live.

Comment #88: asdf  on  06/29  at  01:06 AM

Let’s see, Dave.

1) Eliminating 4 billion people is not horrendous if you understand that as that number stands now, it’s 4 billion potential people.  Education and family size reduction via effective contraception is a very doable thing.  Voluntarily.  And all industrialized countries have achieved it, I think.  The US is only growing through immigration, last I saw the numbers.

2) Backyard gardens writ large.  We need to change zoning requirements.  Every suburb needs to zone truck farms enough to feed their population.  Either conventional ownership, cooperatives with sweat equity or CSA’s are models.  Double walled high hoop houses can keep even the upper tier of the US in veggies through the winter (that’s quoting an expert who directs a statewide fruit and vegetable program).  Eating canned or frozen for two months per year won’t kill anyone, not to mention storage of some crops is a natural - squash, potatoes.    As for your scurvy worries, we need to cultivate persimmons, which the Japanese, with a climate as cold as here in some areas leave hanging on the tree and eat frozen.  Also, the American paw paw and rose hips - great for tea - all have a very high vitamin C content. 

Do you have any idea how much energy and area is wasted on a typical suburban lawn? 

With you large scale ideal, we increase the petrochemicals in food, used for shipping and monocropping via pesticides and fertilizer.  With more local grown, we create more independent owner/farmers and decrease those things, including making closed cycle farms - a really good thing.  Discussions of this sort can be found in David Korten’s Yes! magazine.

There are a lot of us is NOT a good thing.  I’ll contend that many of our ills - physical, social and mental will eventually be attributed to overcrowding - just as we have observed in animal populations.  ANd that becomes a self-perpetuating vicious circle.

Comment #89: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  01:06 AM

Because we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as fish stocks are concerned, and once they go, we’re going to have a massive ecological crisis

We’re pretty much already there.

Comment #90: Cornpone Down Under  on  06/29  at  01:06 AM

Cornpone:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-ocean30jul30,0,2100795.story

Oh, I know we’re ‘pretty much’ there. But we’re still not at the point where we’ve collapsed everything to Cnidaria and Cyanobacteria. We’ll get there if we keep thinking we can feed billions from wild caught fish though.

Comment #91: Grimgrin  on  06/29  at  01:14 AM

asdf: I already told you, I don’t know. I suspect 6 billion is already unsustainable in the long run.

Well….deal with it. I mean really get a grip.

We are beyond 6 billion and will be at 10 billion during your life.

I know.

Bummer.

Yea, sucks doesn’t it?

That’s what we are facing. This is not a assignment in a Philosophy 101 class. There really are 7 billion living breathing humans and there really will be 10 billion living breathing humans by the end of our lives. They are hungry and thirsty.

Any ideas?

Look, I understand you are either a vegan or a vegetarian. I honestly did not mean to offend you. I thought I would more offend the red meat eating crowd but it doesn’t matter.

We have 10 billion house guests over for dinner (breakfast and lunch too). We have to figure out what to do. Fantasies about decreasing the surplus population aside we all need to be fed. 

If you really want to walk the walk: How do we do it?

If you want to be offended because I somehow offended your vegan sensibilities then fuck off. there are bigger problems to deal with.

And if you just want to be a cynic saying doom…doom…doom! Well screw you…

Comment #92: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  01:15 AM

“And this may not mean ‘grow local’, it may very well be more efficient to ship food across country or overseas rather than to expend the energy needed to grow food in unsuitable climates. It may also be that the only way to create crops that do not require the kind of fertilizer and pesticide input we’ve traditionally used is to genetically modify them.”

Sorry, but bs.  Except in the most extreme climates, there is growable food - see my vitamin C examples above.  We will need to change palates.  And that is doable.  Once people become educated about food, they are (usually) willing to try it, and many find they like it.  Personal experience with the nutrition program and with farmers markets:  Ever watch a kid eat their first bite of baked squash? Loaded with natural sugars.  Kids who hated vegetables have devoured half a butternut in a sitting.  Parental cooking units say - “all you do is pierce and bake it? I never knew what to do with one.”  ANd the vitamin A content is phenomenal.

Comment #93: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  01:17 AM

Until we convince people to achieve negative population growth, everything else is delaying the inevitable. Find a way to feed 10 billion people, they will breed another 5 billion. Find a way to feed 15 billion, soon enough it’ll be 20. Eventually there will be a point when the ideas run out, and our finite resources are exhausted. Then there will be famine, and probably war.

Speaking of epic fail statements…

Why, if this were true, is it that the first world countries which can (and do) bury their population is available food are either in population decline, on the verge of population decline, or will be in full population decline within the next few decades?  Because population decline, in the modern world, is inevitable, and not through war or famine or restrictions on reproduction, but because of a social reality: children are an economic burden that people aren’t willing to carry.  With modern farming techniques drastically reducing the number of farmers required to feed people (and thus the number of children required to provide the labour for those farms), and with children providing no other real economic benefit to the family but sucking up resources, for more years than they ever have before, there’s no benefit to have more kids.

Ten kids in an average household, likely a farmer, in 1800 was a blessing, because they provided more hands to work the farm and make it more productive, easily supporting themselves and increasing the surplus.  Ten kids to someone in 1900 (less likely to be a farmer) was a burden: at least some could be expected to be out of the house in their teens to be working, so they werent’ a drain on resources.  Ten kids in 2000 is an utter disaster to the average family, who are highly unlikely to be on a farm and are looking at supporting those kids for 18 years apiece, more if they go to some kind of postsecondary education.  And that isn’t counting what the mother has to go through as she’ll likely be the primary caregiver, while at the same time very unlikely to be able to work outside the home to provide additional income that all those kids will require.

This decline in birthrate is happening all over, faster in first world countries but it’s also seen in second and third world nations.

Comment #94: KeithM  on  06/29  at  01:26 AM

If you really want to walk the walk: How do we do it?

If you want to be offended because I somehow offended your vegan sensibilities then fuck off. there are bigger problems to deal with.

And if you just want to be a cynic saying doom…doom…doom! Well screw you…
Colorado Dave on 06/29 at 12:15 AM

OK, I’ll bite.  We start by undoing the damage we’ve done.  That means restoring wetlands, unstraightening rivers, etc. 

We get kids back to nature.  We re-classify foods.  Foraging.  Cattail anyone?= food.  Soda =/= food.

We begin to count subsistence and reciprocal services into the GNP/GDP with heterodox economics.

We get rid of arbitrary divisions for natural ones like watershed bioregions.

We support/protect indigenous subsistence agriculture includign in teh US through integrated zoning.

We make reliable overlapping methods of contraception available to everyone everywhere, while decreasing the infant mortality rate in areas where adult children are still one’s only retirement plan.

Comment #95: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  01:27 AM

phylosopher: Except in the most extreme climates, there is growable food - see my vitamin C examples above.  We will need to change palates.

You might have some point. Colorado grows mostly winter wheat, sugar beets and beef (lots of spinach and other greens during the summer) with a good crop of greens and other vegetables in spring. Unfortunately we really have no growing season between October and May (other than winter wheat). I can see squashes and root vegetables growing here year round. I’m not sure, however, that Colorado can agriculturally support the 4 million people who live here without support from California (which really feeds most of the US).

This is not unusual as people around the world have settled in areas that cannot support them.

Us humans are crazy huh?

Comment #96: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  01:31 AM

phylosopher: I defer to your experience then. I’ve just found that when looking at energy efficiency you can often get counter intuitive results, even though it doesn’t mean you will.

Comment #97: Grimgrin  on  06/29  at  01:32 AM

Well….deal with it. I mean really get a grip.

Oh my god! I’m barely hanging on to reality!

Why are you acting like this, by the way? This is a conversation we can have without treating each other like idiots, yet you keep choosing otherwise.

That’s what we are facing. This is not a assignment in a Philosophy 101 class. There really are 7 billion living breathing humans and there really will be 10 billion living breathing humans by the end of our lives. They are hungry and thirsty.

I must not have known that you were talking about the real world. Some extra condescension is sure to drive the point home.

Any ideas?

Three times I’ve told you now, no. No ideas from me. No need to ask again; I’ll be sure to tell you if anything comes to mind.

Look, I understand you are either a vegan or a vegetarian. I honestly did not mean to offend you.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, that you were being lazy instead of deliberately insulting. You seem surprised that accusing people of being motivated by feelings of moral superiority might get you perceived as a jerk. That, in turn, surprises me.

Fantasies about decreasing the surplus population aside we all need to be fed.

Now you are being deliberately inflammatory. I’m not Scrooge; I don’t identify any particular group as surplus.

If you want to be offended because I somehow offended your vegan sensibilities then fuck off. there are bigger problems to deal with.

Yes, fuck me for asking for a little mutual respect.

And if you just want to be a cynic saying doom…doom…doom! Well screw you…

Which part is wrong? The war, or the famine? I do believe that it’s possible to avoid disaster, but not without having difficult conversations about reproduction.

Comment #98: asdf  on  06/29  at  01:32 AM

Phylosopher:

I think you are on the right track and at least you propose some solutions. I’m not sure if cattails alone will address the issue but it is a start and a recognition that things need to change.

There are a lot of us and we will need to accept changes from every direction.

Providing better contraception and better infant mortality is probably a wash and we probably won’t slow population growth by much. What is important is that we expand our ability to deal with a growing population.

We obviously need to get over our national differences to become one human race.

The only time I get depressed about the future is when we can’t agree on how to address the issue of what’s the problem.

(On a side note have you ever had cattail pancakes? nasty)

Comment #99: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  01:41 AM

Like I said, lookup Mexico and GMO.

Yes, the holy grail is that they do not seed or the seeds are not fertile.  However, they were released into the wild without those changes… And they have no way of ensuring it does not happen.

Which means farmers who do not plant GMO soybeans are sued by Monsanto for being pollenated by their neighbor’s GMO crops.  Which means farmers who do not wish to grow GMO corn grow it anyhow because it crossbred or was bought at the store as corn unintentionally.  And the big companies use the governments to forward their profits over the locals’ wishes.

Comment #100: Crissa  on  06/29  at  01:42 AM

Wow are you a cynic.

Facing facts is not cynicism.  Currently, our industrial food system runs on petrochemicals for fertiliser and transport.  Those petrochemicals currently come from a fixed supply.  And it looks like that fixed supply is now on the downward slope.

There may be ways around that - substitute energy sources, growing a cost-effective substitute for petrol, screwing around with algae, but it’s going to be really difficult, and they’re probably not viable.  I think we may well be heading for a situation in 2109 where 80% of the population will never drive a private car, where most food is grown within 100 miles of cities, and possibly transported by animals, and where the human population has reduced by a third or more - one way or another.  I’d really like to be wrong, but there are some big problems coming up this century as we bump against our limits.

Now, I could be wrong - technology continually throws up surprises.  but I’m pretty sure the economics of transporting fuel halfway around the globe, spreading it on plants, and then transporting those crops halfway back is going to be a more significant factor than it is now.

Comment #101: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/29  at  01:48 AM

Dave:

I happen to get my seed potatoes from Colorado, good ones too.  Though now I’ve discovered I like Michigan ones better flavor. You’re selling your state short, Dave.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application/pdf&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=MDT-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline;+filename=238/189/07AgStatsMap.pdf&blobheadervalue2=abinary;+charset=UTF-8&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1239160369355&ssbinary=true

Barley and proso millet are human food, yes?  And somehow native Americans survived there for centuries - they ate something.  I’m guessing berries.  ANd apples would grow well there, - there is a fledgling wine industry too it seems.  Do you have huckleberries like in Montana?  ANd certainly trout and other stream fish?

Comment #102: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  01:49 AM

phylosopher: Foraging is nice for supplementing your supplies on an occasional camping trip or for making innovative meal once in a while. It’s not a solution to feeding everyone. There weren’t 300 million native Americans, and pretending otherwise would do incredible damage to our environment.

Comment #103: Grimgrin  on  06/29  at  01:57 AM

KeithM, I mentioned that Germany had accomplished this, so I recognize it’s possible. If people are driven by limited resources and financial burden to have fewer children, then that counts as “convincing” them. Still, I’d rather that people could choose some leisure and luxury rather than barely scraping by.

Can these trends, the ones that don’t involve deliberately choosing one or zero children for environmental reasons, achieve negative population growth?

Because right now we are feeding maybe 5 billion people (at least 1 billion are basically starving), and we continue to destroy wild areas to do it. This is not sustainable. We have to find a way to stop expanding our footprint, and leave some wild areas untouched.

Comment #104: asdf  on  06/29  at  01:58 AM

ok… Colorado Dave - who are you, and why are you here unintentionally insulting people and then kicking them when they ask for an appology?
when you insult someone by accident (as you claim to have) you first APPOLOGIZE then you MOVE ON. you don’t sit there and continually fucking harrass the person you insulted because they were insulted!

asdf is not being a “cynic” - asdf is stating what MOST people who think about our real probable future think - that, unless we somehow restrict our breeding and start having a *major* negative population growth, that the human race is going to do what it *ALWAYS* does when faced with competition from other humans for vital resources - for fuck’s sake, we are *ALREADY* in two fucking wars over resources!

so back the fuck off. i think you have something useful to contribute to the conversation - but as long as you are acting like a total dick, it won’t matter, because people aren’t going to listen to you.

just - take a deep breath, think about how you didn’t mean to offend, and appologize to those who were offended, then MOVE ON. cuz right now? i don’t think you are trying to have a conversation, i think you are trying to have a contest. and, frankly, it’s boring. appologize, move on, try and have the conversation in a respectful manner

which, by the way, is not too much to ask. it is, actually, the very fucking minimum that is required in polite society. that everyone be polite. you appologize and speak respectfully, and so will everyone else.

Comment #105: denelian  on  06/29  at  01:58 AM

asdf:

I wrote a fairly long piece about food issues in the world. I touched on the fact that American supermarkets display better food for their more upscale customers than their more downtrodden ones. I briefly talked about how the developing world often see there own food exported to more profitable markets while they wait for surplus grain. I talked about the dilemma of GMOs to increase productivity and GMOs to produce profit.. I attempted to address this discussion to the 3 billion people on the planet who are today starving. You decided to latch on to one aside comment I made about vegans and get into a huff.

This leads me to believe that you don’t really care about the billions of humans who are starving today or the billions of humans who will starve tomorrow. No you care about your image.

Well I’m probably more left-wing than you are and I ask you a favor. Don’t argue with the right wingers as they will tear tear you up and make all of us on the left look like fools.

Comment #106: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  01:58 AM

Sorry to sound a know it all - I’m preparing to teach a class on the subject and it is also our family small agribusiness, and my passion.  I think Pollan analyzes costs and although he doesn’t address energy units he does claim that CALi veggies are cheaper and ubiquitous mainly because of cheap energy to transport and outdated water distribution rights.  In any study, you would have to take into account the nutritional lacks of long shelf life transportable veg versus local grown days/hours off vine.  The classic example is iceberg lettuce, which I grew up on- and which is pretty weak nutritionally.  I never knew you could grow lettuce in the Midwest until we tried it one year - only problem was the bumper crop!  No iceberg, but mesclun, rouge d’hiver, speckles, butter cos romaine, deer tongue, green leaf, redleaf, red oak leaf, frise, and kale, not to mention chard and spinaches - pretty good nutritionally and phytochem, too..

Comment #107: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  01:58 AM

phylosopher the native Americans who lived here knew it was a transient environment and the Ute lived on bison.

Comment #108: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  02:01 AM

I’m not sur eif you’re being sarcastic Dave, but I’ve gotta disagree anyway.  I think increasing age before reproduction is a good and one Europe and US are doing.

As for increasing production, well, the sacred AMerican (suburban) lawn has to go.  Do you know how much veg can be grown on one of those?  We have an organic farm in the area CSA, that feeds 1200 families on 125 acres - organic and biodynamically.  I have a farmer who raises 200 head of cattle on 143 acres - no chemical inputs, totally grass - to prime.

Comment #109: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:04 AM

Oh, cattails.  I like the spring shoots, peel and eat the bottoms.  We’re planning on digging rhizomes in the fall.  Haven’t done the pancakes yet.  Like anything else, I’d imagine it takes some playing with ingredients and adding some apples or blueberries for sweetness wouldn’t hurt. 

Mushrooms are another, froglegs, and I just sampled some cheese made with added nettle this a.m.  Oh, and we’re looking into goats for poison ivy control.

Comment #110: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:08 AM

phylosopher I don’t have a lawn and do not know what a CSA is.

Comment #111: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  02:09 AM

Geez, Dave. If you would actually educate yourself about what happens when aid groups go into poor nations and provide education and free contraception to WOMEN, the WOMEN overwhelmingly CHOOSE to have only 1-2 kids. They can do the math on limited resources, and don’t want as many kids as they have without help. So actually, a lot of this problem has nothing to do with food growing techniques. As Amanda so frequently points out, give women control over their lives and a great many problems solve themselves.

So no, it’s NOT forgone how many people there will be within my lifetime.

Comment #112: wreckerofplans  on  06/29  at  02:13 AM

This leads me to believe that you don’t really care about the billions of humans who are starving today or the billions of humans who will starve tomorrow. No you care about your image.

Your hypothesis fails to explain why from 03:24 to 10:07 PM I was perfectly happy to have a productive conversation (well, I hope; at least I learned some things) about reforming intellectual property laws to provide opportunities for poor third-world farmers to escape economic exploitation and achieve healthy self-sufficiency.

Here’s an alternative hypothesis that parsimoniously accounts for more of the available data: I admit (for the fourth time now) that I don’t know how to feed 9 or even 6 billion humans sustainably, but I don’t think that either gratuitously insulting people or giving up on negative population growth are useful approaches, so I offer what constructive criticism I can.

Comment #113: asdf  on  06/29  at  02:19 AM

Oh, cattails.  I like the spring shoots, peel and eat the bottoms.  We’re planning on digging rhizomes in the fall.  Haven’t done the pancakes yet.  Like anything else, I’d imagine it takes some playing with ingredients and adding some apples or blueberries for sweetness wouldn’t hurt.

And this feeds Billions how?

The 200 million in Bangladesh benefit how?
The 116 million in Nigeria how?
The 1,000,000 in India?

I mean if you think that this will feed the population of the world please say how. Otherise you are just being an American saying “why cant those other people do things the way we do them.

There are 6 billion people on the planet. One third of them did not have a meal today.

And…

...

Spring shoots are the answer?

Comment #114: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  02:20 AM

asdf

Don’t Glen Beck me.

You came at me for one line in my post.

I upset you with one line in my post We have all heard wingnuts from the right scream about “bean sprout eating tofu heads.” We likewise have heard the moral superiority of the “I don’t eat anything with a face” crowd.

And you used this to successfully (with my help) derail this conversation away from the value and dangers of GMOs to your own pain.

Sorry.

Comment #115: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  02:30 AM

on another note entirely:

i’m with Crissa -
i am poor (i am also disabled, but that is neither here nor there)
i tend to have about $150 a month to spend on food. which seems like a *lot*

you know how much a single tomotoe costs around here (in Ohio)? most of the time, a SINGLE TOMATOE, which is enough for one person in most cases, cost an ENTIRE DOLLAR. well, ok i find no difference between 99cents and a dollar in most cases, and most of the time tomatoes are 99cents a piece in local grocery stores. not organic tomatoes. regular tomatoes.
beef runs about $4 a pound, chicken and turkey between $3 and $3.50. i don’t know about most pork, bcause i only eat bacon - but the cheap bacon is $2,89 a poundon sale. green beans are over a dollar a pound; so are corn, squash and carrots. baby carrots are over twice as much as regular carrots.
none of the things i am listing are organic or in any way “special” (local or non-pesticidal or whatever) to make them more expensive.
i go to the grocery to buy food for a week, CHEAP food, stuff that i cook (not frozen dinners and pizza) and i’m spending over $50 a week for just me. i am ALSO having to make multiple trips to the grocery store, because my fridge? my fridge is old and stuff (like milk, or most veggies) only last a few days. my FREEZER doesn’t work at *all* - i can keep, at BEST, a single tray of ice cubes and an ice pack frozen - frozen yogurt melts in my freezer. i cannot AFFORD a new freezer (or a new fridge/freezer combo) so i am stuck with what i have. most poor people that i know? are stuck with old fridges that don’t work anywhere NEAR as well as new fridges (even new fridges that are a 40 year old design) because they wear out…

whereas, if i instead eat crap, pre-made bought crap - i’m spending a couple of dollars a meal, NOT having to go to the grocery story and ride around in the electric cart and having people make fun of me for it, not having to find *someone* to bring my groceries in for me, not having to cook - and it costs the *SAME*, if not less.

so - i can spend $5-$8 a day on bought, cooked fast food, or i can spend the SAME AMOUNT OR MORE on non-cooked food that i ALSO have to spend a LOT of time working with - buying, carting, cleaning, then cooking. there is also the point that my stove? is also old, like Crissa’s, and it won’t boil more than three CUPS worth of stuff. 3 cups isn’t very much. and i literally don’t have any storage space - i have 3 cupboards and a teeny fridge/freezer. i actually use the mostly-broken freezer to keep drinking water, pepsi and sun-tea in (beause sun tea is the cheapest tastiest drink in the world…)

of course, when i lived with my dad in a *very* upscale neighborhood a couple of years ago - my food bill was almost *half* of what it is where i live now - EVERYTHING WAS CHEAPER in my dad’s neighborhood - hell the organic tomatoes over there ran about 80cents instead of the 99cents i am paying for regular tomatoes over here.


so, no - poor people don’t just need to “learn” how to cook, shop and store - poor people need accessable stores that actually carry good food (because the produce section in my grocery store is *scary* sometimes, just last week i bought squash that had MAGGOTS) at the *SAME CHEAP PRICES* as the stores in more expensive areas; then poor people need the TIME to buy food (and is someone advocating shopping multiple times per week? who the HELL has time for THAT?), and a way to get the food *home* - once they are home, they ROOM TO STORE on places that are SAFE - most people don’t have great refridgerators, and most have kinda small ones, and most poor people don’t have a lot of storage space, *period*  - and they need stoves and ovens that work *well*. anad, again, the TIME and energy to cook, and dishes with WHICH to cook (my boyfriend was so excited when i was moving in because i own a frying pan, and he didn’t…)
individually, these problems seem easy to over come. but taken together… it’s really damned hard. and that’s just for *me* - if i had kids i had to take care of, clean up after and feed, i’m not at all sure i could *do* it - i *know* i could not do it with the few resources i have now.

Comment #116: denelian  on  06/29  at  02:32 AM

Ok, the Ute were transient - we could be, too, by letting the food travel a bit, not cross country.  I was up in northern MI, lower Michigan last year - watched black cherries (10X more tasty that Cali/Washignton Bings) going to waste, because the canning companies and transport to Chicago and Milwaukee had long since stopped.

I’m not saying we all should forage, but soooo much goes to waste - the cattails, the wild raspberries - I caused quite a stir at the Little League last week when my boys and I had all the kids eating mulberries!  Yeah, I made sure to rinse them, and such happy purple hands and faces.  It was interesting to watch the varied reactions of the parents.

Not everything is personal, Dave, we were talking about larger solutions, remember? You may not have a lawn, but most American single family homes do.  In Europe, there are gardens tucked in everywhere.  ANd they do things like sun dry tomatoes by pulling out the whole plant and hanging it over the balcony railing.  And we pay what $6 per bottle or more?

A CSA means consumer supported agriculture.  Please google Angelic Organics.  I understand the Farmer John film is quite good, too.  Basically, subscribers pay a fee at the beginning of the year so farmers don’t have to take loans from the bank.  IN return, they receive a share of the crop, usually picked up or delivered once per week.  Farmer has a guaranteed market, consumer has a guaranteed supply.  CSA’s can be as small as growing for oneself and a neighbor with the neighbor sharing seed costs, or as large as Angelic.   
http://www.angelicorganics.com/

There are also planned communities (subdivisions) liek this
http://www.prairiecrossing.com/pc/site/organic-farm.html

I see both of these as the future, at least in the US.

Heifer International and Kiva projects worldwide.

Comment #117: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:34 AM

Providing better contraception and better infant mortality is probably a wash and we probably won’t slow population growth by much. What is important is that we expand our ability to deal with a growing population.

This is fundamentally wrong, and frankly, I’m shocked that someone who reads Pandagon and calls themselves a “left-winger” would say it. Access to contraception is NOT a “wash,” and the possibility of negative population growth isn’t nearly as much of a fantasy as the idea that we can have literally any number of people on this earth and still be able to feed them all.

If we were to run with your “we can’t prevent it, all we can do is try to keep up” philosophy on population growth, there simply would not be any possible scenario that wouldn’t end with war and mass famine. Even if we somehow manage to sustain 10 billion people (an unlikely feat), will we be able to do it with 15 billion? 50 billion? 500 billion?

Comment #118: Katie Joy  on  06/29  at  02:35 AM

hey, Colorado Dave, GO AND READ THE THAT I WROTE AND DIRECTED AT YOU.

i think you think asdf wrote the post above, that was written BY ME, wherein *I*, who had not previousy been a part of the conversation, told you that you were BEING RUDE - and that i thought should appologize for being an accidental unthinking asshole, and the MOVE ON because you might have USEFUL THINGS to had to the conversation but MOST PEOPLE will NOT HEAR THEM when YOU ARE ACTING LIKE AN ASSHOLE.

go. read it.

Comment #119: denelian  on  06/29  at  02:37 AM

Dave, regarding your 1:20 a.m. post - stop being such an ass by deliberately pretending that an example is intended as the entire solution.  I’m suggesting Americans learn to eat what’s at their doorstep so we don’t go destroying (via corporations we buy from) other countries’ subsistence agriculture in order to support our own luxury habits.  South American beef, banana and pineapple plantations, sugar cane and coffee fazendas - all have reasonable substitutes we can grow, cultivate or forage here.  That way we remove the incentive to large landowners to monocrop and displace subsistence farmers or destry habitat as in the Amazon.

Comment #120: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:39 AM

Don’t Glen Beck me.

God forbid I might have feelings that could be hurt.

I’m sorry. I just love my country (and world) and I fear for it.

Comment #121: asdf  on  06/29  at  02:46 AM

wreckerofplans

You are absolutely right. The issue of health care for women is a primary component of any discussion about human growth projections.

Health care for woman is a variable in global warming projections and increased access to reproductive services slows the growth of the human population. Simply put more freedom for women equals a better environmental outcome.

This conversation is about whether GMOs are an acceptable means of dealing with starvation. Amanda seems fairly unequivocal:

That said, my one quibble with the movie is that it reinforces anti-science prejudice.  GMOs are listed as a point of concern without much explanation, which could lead under-educated viewers to freak out about the healthiness of “Frankenfood”, even though genetically modifying food is pretty safe and not all that different from the old-fashioned way of genetic modification, which is selective breeding.

As Amanda points out there are issues with GMOs but they also present a possibility to addresss world hunger issues in a way which has not been attempted.

Comment #122: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  02:46 AM

Phylosopher-

Off topic, but thank you for the sun-dried tomatoes example.  I’ve been trying to come up with something to do with my garden’s excess of tomatoes, and I’m totally trying that.

Comment #123: Emaloo  on  06/29  at  02:47 AM

*******must…..resist…HYDE..transformation************

Oh, for the sake of the good lord’s foreskin!

You all *really* don’t know the fuck you’re talking about, mostly.  And it always happens at night when I have much less control to just let it fucking go.

It even *starts* with the assumption that there is such a thing as carrying capacity.  You know, a whole bag of assumptions that are probably not true, but we believe it so because it suits our need to feel in control of our destiny, somehow.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY HUMANS, NOR TOO FEW.  There is no grand number, nor any one grand path to salvation.  Mama Nature will take care of us, or don’t, as she pleases.  Don’t make me cart the Total Perspective Vortex here and atomize you all.  This is not to say that efforts to lower greenhouse gases, preserve habitats, quit polluting so much, etc etc etc aren’t good in and of themselves, but what mattered has always been our pillaging of the environment effect on ourselves.  We have no ability to extend our time, and only limited ability to shorten it.  Going all Erlicher is generally a sign that we’re about to murder one another, not work on overpopulation through the means that generally work.  We do the right thing because doing the right thing enriches our lives and informs our perspectives.  We work on reducing greenhouse gases because we can see that it’s bad and that we care about our descendents, thus informing our sense of propriety and justice.  Same with increasing women’s right, and not because we think empowered women will have fewer children.  Women should have the choice to bear or not to bear as they see fit, and surprisingly, most will make appropriate decisions.  No need to worry about populations or any other damn fool abstractions that any old evil twit can substitute her ambitions for.

And this is *before* I could do any smackdowns as far as the details of this whole wah!wah! We’re 7 Billion and there’s gonna be more, waddawegonnado?!  I’ve already done this time and time again, with little apparent effect.  I’m not even sure that the statement that we are well past the ability to ethically reduce our numbers in time to help has penetrated any minds here.  Nor has mentioning that population pressure arguments have a genuinely evil history.  It’s just easier to think of the simple thing like a nice number or two instead of appreciating the byzantine relationship humans have with Nature.

Comment #124: shah8  on  06/29  at  02:54 AM

You’re welcome.  It was an example of working with your environment.  If you are in a drier climate, go for it - it didn’t work for me here in the muggy midwest - had to use a dehydrator;-(

Comment #125: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:54 AM

Katie - i agree

i sometimes have fanasies, daydreams, about the day when people are 100% able to control their own fertility, so that NO woman is *ever* pregnant unless she actively wants to be (and, to throw the MRAs a bone, when no man ever gets a woman pregnant against *his* will - it would take *both* participants willing cooperation to be fertile at all...)

it’s just a fantasy - i doubt it will happen anytime in the forseable future, because the Patriarchy has too much invested in controling women through their uteruses, and if women were really able to control their fertility 100% for free and for no effort, and the only actual effort put forth was the effort to actually *be* fertile for a short period - think of all the things that would be solved if this happened, though! no more having to make an effort to not get pregnant, and NO social stigma for doing so! no having to beg your parents or go behind their backs as a teen, no expenditure of finite resources when you are older, no more “unplanned” pregnancies, no more abortion *except* medical necessity so NO MORE FORCED BIRTHERS, no more slut shaming! no more unwanted children!

sigh. such a nice fantasy. in my fantasy, our population declines pretty rapidly to a more sustainable level, over about a century, and there is actual equality, and there are no more wars or atrocities, and rape (and other sexual assult crimes) are so rare they are always big news and rapist are always considered gravely mentally ill (and child molesters are seen in an even worse light) and no more children are abused because their parents didn’t want them but didn’t know how to not have them…
and everyone has enough food. because there are less people. and more enlightened and ethical people, and those people have stopped using food as a blackmail tool, and have developed new ways to get more food from smaller areas without fucking up the enviroment, the plants/animals, or the people who consume the food… i don’t know how. Magic, i guess.

that’s what it might take, to feed the world in another 20 years, if we don’t reduce the population.
what is humanities #1 way of reducing population?
war.
i don’t want *another*  war, and neither does anyone else…

Comment #126: denelian  on  06/29  at  02:55 AM

“It even *starts* with the assumption that there is such a thing as carrying capacity. “

And just why do you feel that basic biology is in error?

Comment #127: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:57 AM

shah8 -
there may not be a “magic number of sustainability” overall, but there are DEFINITE numbers of what we can sustain at our present usage with our current technology
and you are right (if i understood you correctly) that we are currently PASSED the point of actual, viable sustaining of our current population - we do not have the tech capacity (especially of food growing, in any of the models we actually use) to continue to feed everyone as many of the limited resources we use (petroleum; fish etc) are passing their peak capacity and these are finite resources that either don’t renew at all, or cannot renew if we don’t leave them the fuck alone to *let* them renew.

all that said - what the hell is wrong with discussing the problem and trying to find an answer (or more probably a series of answers, because there probably isn’t just one)?
you appear to be ranting because we A) don’t fully understand the science and B) are all doomed anyway. am i misunderstanding something?
because, if i am not misunderstanding what you are saying, i don’t understand the *point* if you saying it - either we find a way to fix the various messes we have caused, or we have a *LOT* of even bigger problems come up, SOON, that include multiple *big* wars and pandemic level world-wide famines (not localized ones, as there are now…) that affect everyone, everywhere.
but we aren’t even supposed to discuss the problem? let alone think we have any hope and try and fix?

Comment #128: denelian  on  06/29  at  03:05 AM

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY HUMANS, NOR TOO FEW.  There is no grand number, nor any one grand path to salvation.  Mama Nature will take care of us, or don’t, as she pleases.

I think most of us implicitly understand we’re talking about quality of life issues. Obviously we can have 6 billion humans; we’re doing it right now. But we’re also interested in eliminating poverty for everyone, halting and reversing the destruction of wild areas, and preparing for any foreseeable catastrophes, such that people can survive indefinitely. World peace would be nice, too. These goals do implicate population, so for our values, there are such things as too many humans, and too few. And our values may not matter in the great cosmic void, but they do matter to us, here on Earth, and that’s why we’re talking about them.

Comment #129: asdf  on  06/29  at  03:12 AM

asdf -
well said. because we have to do what matters to *us*. that’s the only real ruler we have to measure anything - how important was it, to me; or how important will it be. well, that and empathy, but then again empathy is something that i find *very* important to me, so…

we have to *TRY*. and hopefully succeed. because it DOES matter, to *US*

Comment #130: denelian  on  06/29  at  03:19 AM

because the earth is not a petri dish. 

it is not static.

nor is our relationship with natural processes static.

For example, biologically, races don’t exist.  That’s mostly because 75k years ago, Indonesia blew up (creating some very purty non-touristy lakes today) and almost all homo whatever people died.  We almost died out, and now we’re left with one of the least genetically diverse gene bank among big animals.

From another perspective, we grew, and we flowered because the Earth at the time created many nice habitat that we could exploit and use to conquer less amenable habitats.  It just doesn’t take much change in climate and species mix to all of a sudden lose habitats en masse. 

What has always mattered most is the flow and release of energies.  The more complicated and multifaceted and contained that energy flow is between humans and earthly processes, the more stable our existence is.  This is something that is *well* independent of how many people there are, unless we are talking real extremes.  This means that a few million people could be “too much” just as easily as 10 billion people.  Ask the world’s megafauna how they feel about humans—30k years ago.

It’s vastly more important to work on our problems directly instead of thinking that fewer people are going to magically result in fewer resources taken up.  Parkinson’s law (the corollaries are more important, here) is the controlling factor here when thinking on this topic.

So, um…

no, there is no talk about basic biology being in error.  I just actually know my shit, and moreover, I know what *will* happen when too many people gets to thinking like this.

Comment #131: shah8  on  06/29  at  03:23 AM

Look, an orange tree in a backyard in the middle of california, watered with local water, will supply the vitamin c needs of far more people than live around it.

Growing local is fine, but there’s no reason not to save apples in warehouses, or trade apples for oranges and grapefruit.  It’s just silly to say that we must not take advantage that some areas can grow more food!

What is silly is that we build houses on good farmland.  Cut down forests for suburbs and vacation houses… And burn fuels without thinking it will impact the air we breathe.

Comment #132: Crissa  on  06/29  at  03:29 AM

denelian:
all that said - what the hell is wrong with discussing the problem and trying to find an answer (or more probably a series of answers, because there probably isn’t just one)?
you appear to be ranting because we A) don’t fully understand the science and B) are all doomed anyway. am i misunderstanding something?

You’ve hit the nail on the head. There is nothing wrong with discussing the problem and there is nothing wrong with trying to find an answer, or a series of answers.

We are facing complex problem with complex solutions. People who like simple answers to simple problems are going to be upset by the choices facing us simply because there is no simple answer. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury to entertain simple solutions. Our brethren on the right would claim that only tax cuts and a free market solution will guide us from the wilderness. Actually our brethren on the right would more likely deny that there is a problem and insist we just go on as though nothing were happening.

You will have to ask asdf, phylosopher, and shah8 what the solution from the left is.

Actually I am offended by my own comment. The right wing, not the left, is the philosophy of NO, although some left leaning posters on Pandagon do a good impression of the NO philosophy when it comes to science. I guess both the right and the left meet when it comes to anti-science rhetoric. I guess birds of a feather do….

Oh’ and flame away, I’m going to bed and probably won’t check this site for several days.

Comment #133: Colorado Dave  on  06/29  at  03:30 AM

Growing local is fine, but there’s no reason not to save apples in warehouses, or trade apples for oranges and grapefruit.  It’s just silly to say that we must not take advantage that some areas can grow more food!

What is silly is that we build houses on good farmland.  Cut down forests for suburbs and vacation houses… And burn fuels without thinking it will impact the air we breathe.
Crissa on 06/29 at 02:29 AM

Crissa, it’s OK to trade surplus or take advantage of abundance.  But when we neglect/destroy local agriculture to the point where we grown little/nothing of our own, for our own local populations to the pint where we no longer see it as a food, but only see the import, then we have a problem.

Comment #134: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  03:37 AM

G’night all.

Comment #135: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  03:39 AM

Shah8,

The racists already talk about exclusive lebensraum, without any encouragement from us. So some leftists are talking about achieving a stable population to eliminate poverty for everyone, perhaps without national borders? Our discussion is a counterweight to the racists’, not an expansion of their genocidal rhetoric, because their answers cannot address our issues.

Comment #136: asdf  on  06/29  at  03:39 AM

/me rubs head

denelian
No, I am not saying that we are in overshoot.  I am saying that there is no way to gracefully lower our population numbers before the consequences of overshoot (if we are in such a situation) smacks us around.


asdf
I am not passing judgement on quality of life issues.  In fact, I’m reasonably sure that lowering population will make quality of life worse instead of better.  You, and many others, keep thinking in terms of food. 

No. 

That sort of quality of life issue is impossible to judge, since people are socialized to like much of what they eat.  In toto, the earth is rather easily capable of feeding 10-12 billion of us.  With nutritious and varied food products, not soylent green.  When it comes to food, just look to the original post by Amanda, and you’ll see what the real problems are:  Global Finance driven food supply that depends on creating scarcity when that doesn’t have to be so.

The proper way is to think in terms of *tasks*.  Many of these tasks are highly dependent on there being many people.  If we don’t have enough people, then our ability to care for ourselves (and maintain “carrying capacity”) goes down *more* than the “savings” we would gain from fewer people.  Our socio-political framework would sieze up as well.  Heh, the irony is, this current general crisis was *brought* to the point of crisis from the ageing of the wealthier areas of the globe!

The proper way to work this out is not to think of anything like a Gordian knot.  No problems can actually be solved by simply cutting it.  There is no one way that will fix everything or even promise big gains.  It’s just mostly about us getting our acts together in dozens of tiny ways.

Again, our problems do not comes from overpopulation.  Our population just provides the context and plays a role in giving us an acceptable range of solutions.  Changing our population doesn’t actually solve our problems because it just changes what kind of solutions are available, but it’s a tempting solution for people who wants to clear people off their assets.  It’s one that has been use repeatedly in history, which is why it should never, ever be used as a justification.

Comment #137: shah8  on  06/29  at  03:43 AM

No, I am not saying that we are in overshoot.  I am saying that there is no way to gracefully lower our population numbers before the consequences of overshoot (if we are in such a situation) smacks us around.

You can hardly blame denelian for not piecing this point together out of your rant; it isn’t apparently there.

The proper way is to think in terms of *tasks*.  Many of these tasks are highly dependent on there being many people.  If we don’t have enough people, then our ability to care for ourselves (and maintain “carrying capacity”) goes down *more* than the “savings” we would gain from fewer people.

Just as easily addressed by actively adjusting the concentration of population, rather than relying on high populations to provide high concentrations everywhere.

The proper way to work this out is not to think of anything like a Gordian knot.  No problems can actually be solved by simply cutting it.  There is no one way that will fix everything or even promise big gains.  It’s just mostly about us getting our acts together in dozens of tiny ways.

That’s a good message, and you should share it with a kindergarten class near you. But as for this thread, I haven’t seen anyone here suggest anything so naive as a final solution.

Again, our problems do not comes from overpopulation.

Deforestation does not relate to population?

Comment #138: asdf  on  06/29  at  03:54 AM

Oh, my fucking god.

someone was a psychic!

http://xkcd.com/603/

Comment #139: shah8  on  06/29  at  03:55 AM

No one here is talking about eugenics, or any solutions exclusive to one class, nationality, skin color, etc.

Comment #140: asdf  on  06/29  at  04:00 AM

denelian - I don’t know who you’re replying to, as I haven’t talked about our eating situation; I do store food and buy and bulk and have an old stove by landlord and not by choice… But I didn’t mention them here ^-^;  I focused on GMO questions.

There is tons of food that is let rot in US cities.  Our blocks are covered with carob trees planted and owned by the city.  Every block has more orange and citrus trees than the locals probably would eat, if they shared them.  We eat pretty good on berries and forage and share it instead of letting it go to waste.  We have three pints of elderberry syrup in the fridge from the roadside.  We have tomatoes on the eve and share with someone who has a real garden.  These are things that people can and probably should do.  It lessens the impact of our suburban life.

But the biggest impact is the big corporations - they need to have their leash pulled so they remember they exist only at the people’s will.

Comment #141: Crissa  on  06/29  at  04:03 AM

Alright asdf, *snort*

*ahem*

uh…

oh, wait, you didn’t answer a thing I said…

not with words that were anything other than hot air

At least it wasn’t a foetid fart.

Comment #142: shah8  on  06/29  at  04:03 AM

I mean, you’re not even understanding that it doesn’t *matter* that we leftist aren’t talking about (or like) right-wing baddies.

As if we have control of the meme after it passes into the body public.

Comment #143: shah8  on  06/29  at  04:06 AM

Please do try to put on your sociable face tonight, shah8, you’re genuinely more interesting that way.

Everybody talks about overpopulation already. Most everybody thinks there are too many of “those people,” however defined; non-racists just tend to delineate “stupid people.” The left can silently ignore this anxiety, and hope it just goes away. Or we can participate and address it directly, by pointing out that war will not improve our quality of life, and genocide will not make bosses give us better health care plans. A movement for the worldwide unity of working people can improve standards for most, while reducing the international competition where “their country” is outbreeding “our country” to our relative economic loss, and such a reduction of competition would also allow the luxury of more access to natural resources for every individual.

We have an alternative to genocide. But other people aren’t going to stop thinking about genocide just because we don’t offer our answers.

Comment #144: asdf  on  06/29  at  04:24 AM

If people are driven by limited resources and financial burden to have fewer children, then that counts as “convincing” them. Still, I’d rather that people could choose some leisure and luxury rather than barely scraping by.

You’re making a mistake: you aren’t considering the possibility that people are thinking about this in advance and making that decision regardless of their financial standing.

I make a 6 figure salary (well, high-5 in US dollars), as does my wife.  We could afford to have a child: we chose not to specifically because neither of us feel like having one and, quite honestly, we like our leisure and the luxury.  We don’t need to be just scraping by to make that decision.

And that’s what people all over the world are doing.  Whether they are rich or poor doesn’t matter.

Comment #145: KeithM  on  06/29  at  04:30 AM

Crissa, I believe denelian meant to say “I’m with kristin.” : )

Comment #146: asdf  on  06/29  at  04:33 AM

KeithM, I’m only responding to your own point:

children are an economic burden that people aren’t willing to carry.

But if you’re choosing not to have children, it’s not because of an economic burden.

Comment #147: asdf  on  06/29  at  04:36 AM

i had a long post; pain meds made me fall asleep; i’ll try again tomorrow…

Comment #148: denelian  on  06/29  at  05:05 AM

but also:
asdf - you rock. again, i *DID* mean Kristin. all the “Cr/Kr/Chr?Kers all tend to blend. sorry about the confusion. again, meds. i sleep not. should helps.
sorry!!!

Comment #149: denelian  on  06/29  at  05:15 AM

Jesus, I agree so much with every single word of this review. I just kept saying “exactly” louder and louder in my head right until the end. It says what it needs to be said. No more, no less.

Way to go, Amanda. Great, great, GREAT review.

Pollan’s “In Defense of Food: an Eater’s Manifesto”, a fine book, also occasionally has this weird anti-science vibe in the critic of nutritionists and OGMs.

Comment #150: Nimed  on  06/29  at  07:01 AM

In defense of Pollan, there’s nothing weird about his cautions that science may not have (yet) found all the answers.  So that relying on science entirely and completely for food production and choices may have side effects or may not be warranted - and that science can be too easily manipulated by politics and capitalism- and many people don’t see distinctions between science, gov’t and corporations.  Baby formula and phytochemicals are two examples.

Science won’t find what it’s not looking for, but it can be used to limit our choices.

And go back to my mulberry example.  I’m certain the objections of many of the squeamish parents were to their children eating something that wasn’t hygienically sealed and state inspected.  One was an overheard lesson in not trusting one’s own palate, “but, you don’t know where that came from!”  The child knew more about where that mulberry came from than anything she’d probably eaten in the past year.  Now, I’m all for, “OK, but don’t sample something until an adult we trust tells you it’s OK.”  (Did you know that there are daycare centers that won’t let a parent bring in homemade cupcakes on a kid’s birthday?  They have to be store bought so they have nutrition info!) 

Re: a discussion the other day, science has given us transfats, HFCS, and other preservatives that we now know may be harmful.  Along with high temp pasteurization, rBGh and irradiation so we can literally “eat shit.” I’d say a healthy scepticism is in order.

Comment #151: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  11:09 AM

I’m baffled by the inclination to deny that there are any problems with overpopulation at all just to avoid talking about solutions to it, NOT all of which are barbaric or unethical.

Denmark is cutting its population growth a lot more effectively than China is.

Comment #152: Katie Joy  on  06/29  at  11:33 AM

“SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!”

(movie nerd - couldn’t resist the urge) smile

Comment #153: Mhorag  on  06/29  at  12:04 PM

adsf: “But if you’re choosing not to have children, it’s not because of an economic burden. “

I think you’re right. No one in the world chooses not to have a child because they can’t afford it. No one. Not one person. Not only do I think you’re right, I applaud you for having the boldness to state this as a universal, unequivocal fact. Now sure, some will attack you because this fact is ‘grossly simplistic’ or ‘easily contradicted by any number of anecdotal or broad based surveys’ or ‘flat out wrong’, but I say it’s your willingness to totally disregard such petty subtleties that makes you an effective debater.

Kudos to you, kudos.

Comment #154: Grimgrin  on  06/29  at  12:27 PM

Ok Chet, let’s start at the top with your diatribe. 

First, we can dismiss your insults.  I’m not going to rehearse, at your demand, the cases by creating an overview.  I will point out the basic rule that says look, if your product comes onto my property and invades my product, I should be suing you, not the other way’round.  So you’ll need to detail, how many total suits, and which crops in these one or two cases.  “Purposely fertilized”  by uhm what, living downwind of a GMO plot and planting as they’ve always done? 
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/4045/monsanto_beets_down_opposition
Perhaps you need to understand that the article and I are talking small seed companies here.  But you admit that Monsanto goes after everyone. If you can’t tell the difference between theft and private property invasion, then I’d say that defaulting to a “it must have been theft” is pretty logically weak:
Well officer my bike is on his property, so he must have stolen it because it’s there.  Yeah I could have ridden it there yesterday, or my little brother could have left it on his lawn instead of mine, but it’s there, it’s theft I tell you!

I said healthy scepticism and understanding the limits of science, not eliminating science.  If you’re implying that dream catchers etc, are a part of philosophy, then we’ll just dismiss another ignorant insult.

Then you can explain why my oh so very scientific examples of science missing the benefits of phytohcemicals, the dangerous mistakes about margarine being “healthier than butter” and the just recently added to breast milk nutrients qualify as “energies” to be dismissed. 

I’m all for further research, but also a very, very healthy suspicion of that research when it can be linked to a (corporate) profit motive. 

Again, why are you assuming vegetarianism?  Lard, butter etc, all have their place in total utilization of animal products. 

As for HFCS, uhm didn’t we just have this discussion - sorry you missed it, Chet.  But perhaps Wiki will help your aporia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup#Health_effects

Pateurization may have made sense 100 years ago, when rural farms didn’t have running water in the house, let alone the barn.  Modern dairies, well run, can carefully produce non-pasteurized milk.  Don’t make me laugh about cheap milk - Posilac was pushed at a time when dairy farms were being paid to not produce milk becasue it was glutting the maket and driving prices down, and farmers needed price supports.  AS for contamination, using manure from feedlots is a problem - because the cattle that have been prophylatically fed antibiotics and grains have a much stronger strain of e coli - resistant to human stomach acids (Scince backs this up, Chet). 

There you go with setting up imaginary boxes Chet: One can, buy/grow organic produce and wash it.  Though Kristin might object to actually having to do “extra” work. 

I suggest you might want to get out from behind your desk at Monsanto, Chet . Perhaps you would be able to write something more than out of context glosses.

Comment #155: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  01:39 PM

. . . I saw the post count and thought “troll derail.” Lo and behold, halfway down, I see someone going on and on about overpopulation. Since the original poster wasn’t saying shit about that, the next step was bullshitting and confusion. Pretending like that didn’t happen:

GMOs are basically unregulated—that’s the problem. Merely creating a new or modified critter is perfectly fine. What isn’t fine is deliberately releasing this thing into a wild population. You not only imperil the natural population but create the possibility of more, unpredictable hybrids. It’s not “unnattural,” it’s pure fucking evil. Then, of course, comes the stealing of farmers’ land and crops as a result of this.

GMOs aren’t made because they’re better—they’re made because they are under the control of a company. The idea is to take control of existing foodstuffs—in other words, to abuse the patent system beyond recognition. If you grow corn, Monsanto can’t make a profit from that. The idea is to make it so your corn “belongs” to Monsanto. It’s <b>rent collection</i> brought to the logical, outmost extreme. Monsanto’s products aren’t meant to be better or more efficient or fix a problem, they’re meant to give Monsanto ownership of things no human should own.

We are fixated on variety and (over)choices. (Think our closets here, too.  Lots and lots and lots of cheap stuff - so that we NEVER wear the same thing two days in a row, and often wash it between each wearing - disposable clothes.

It’s called “hygine.” If an article of clothing is dirty, it’s dirty and that’s the end of it. If it’s not, it’s not. I know plenty of people that re-wear clothing. This argument is particularly specious bullshit.

Comment #156: No One of Consequence  on  06/29  at  01:56 PM

It’s called “hygine.” If an article of clothing is dirty, it’s dirty and that’s the end of it. If it’s not, it’s not. I know plenty of people that re-wear clothing. This argument is particularly specious bullshit.

No One of Consequence on 06/29 at 12:56 PM

That should be the way it is NOoc.  But think about this - if you are an office worker, how dirty does the shirt that’s worn (often over another shirt) really get in one day.  Many people undress into the laundry basket.  ANd Americans are paranoid about being seen in the same clothes two days in a row because it presumably means they are wearnhg “dirty” clothes.  Ask an AMerican teen if they would be seen in the same outfit two days in a row.

I’ve even heard discussion about making sure a childs baseball uniform is washed and stan free before EACH game - huh? 

Look at the mounds of laundry AMericans do.

Comment #157: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  02:19 PM

asdf, I put on my unsociable face because topics like these makes me feel like a combination of Odd John and Cassandra.  I’m not an expert on anything (though I know loads of biology), just a well educated and widely read layman. 

Take three books Habits of Empire by Walter Nugent, Late Victorian Holocausts by Mike Davis, and James C. Scott’s Seeing Like a State.  None of these books are explicitly about overpopulation or even much about population, yet in all three of these books, one way or another, liberal (think old school liberals like Mills or Catholic Social Justice Theory) discourse on population drives massivly malevolent outcomes on the ground.

Stripped of context, population dynamics and control, like eugenics, are not bad things, and they can do quite a bit of good.  In the context of humans and human politics, however, they generally *are* very bad things.  The central feature of *why* they are a bad thing is that the ideology that forms around policy discourse based on population tends to feed the human need for simplification and control in ways that violate not just Kantian imperatives, but most moral imperatives.  It’s almost always a self-propagating evil based on positive feedback cycles that will eventually crash.

This is why I turn to Dr. Hyde while vigorously protesting this.  It’s why I get heartily sick of people who quite obviously don’t know what the fuck they are talking about assuming that everyone’s asshole opinions are equal, it’s the favorite method of most theocrats and ideological warriors to shout down independent thought by rendering it valueless.  Like, oh, pretending that science is a faith, say, and then arguing that their faith is better.

Katie Joy, Denmark isn’t actually trying to reduce population—rather, most Scandinavian countries are doing their best to actually grow their population by a small margin.  Like I’ve said before, losing population tends to make many things go wrong, and it’s something one has to plan and be methodical in remediating these issues as they happen (and it’s not trivial).  Countries like China and Roumania tend to fail because they focused on directly controlling population.  Countries like Iran tend to have more success because they focused on increasing the status and financial independence of women as well as making family planning available to everyone.  Countries like Sweden, who are focused on maintaining replacement level +, they succeed because they agressively put an egalitarian focus on women and men in the labor markets, like baby leave for both mothers and fathers and encouraging fathers to take said leaves.  It tends to work for people when they’ve got leeway to figure out what their problems are and how they are going to solve it. 

Trying to use the simple knob tends to wreck all that.

This thread is just as fustrating when it’s on topic instead of off.  Most of the people here don’t know enough about food, science, or agriculture to make good comments.  Everything is based on accounts from popular science books and articles.  I feel safer in letting it go, though.  There’s only so much damage some dude named Chet can do…

One hint though, purely for discussion purposes…Food is a means of social control and resource extraction, and global markets assists in the process.  There are plenty of rich veins of conversations in them thar hills.  I mean, what do you think is the central element behind the US’s propagation of multinational markets such as NAFTA?  Why?  Why are Mosanto, Cargil, ADM such major players in these discussions (think labor vs capital).  If you’re thinking about labor and capital like you should…then think about the role of intellectual property in supplementing, counteracting, or subverting labor.

Comment #158: shah8  on  06/29  at  02:38 PM

Chet: fuck off.  Come back when you’re willing to have a discussion like an adult.  Until then, keep kissing your Monsanto, Cargill, Syngenta and ADM professor’s bought and paid for asses.

Comment #159: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  03:03 PM

“There’s only so much damage some dude named Chet can do… “

True, Shah8, but in defense of Percy Schmeiser agaisnt Chet’s libel, please note that in addition to the case which Monsanto won against Schmeiser, Schmeiser has recently sued and won against Monsanto for contaminating his fields - so much for him “wanting to steal” that GMO stuff.

Schmieser is the one who can best outline his case:
http://www.percyschmeiser.com/

Comment #160: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  03:57 PM

adsf: “But if you’re choosing not to have children, it’s not because of an economic burden. “

I think you’re right. No one in the world chooses not to have a child because they can’t afford it. No one. Not one person. Not only do I think you’re right, I applaud you for having the boldness to state this as a universal, unequivocal fact. Now sure, some will attack you because this fact is ‘grossly simplistic’ or ‘easily contradicted by any number of anecdotal or broad based surveys’ or ‘flat out wrong’, but I say it’s your willingness to totally disregard such petty subtleties that makes you an effective debater.

Kudos to you, kudos.

Grimgrin, if you’d bothered to look for context, you’d see that I’m responding to KeithM, who said that he personally was able to afford children but had chosen not to have them. And so I contrasted this with only his earlier statement that “population decline, in the modern world, is inevitable, and not through war or famine or restrictions on reproduction, but because of a social reality: children are an economic burden that people aren’t willing to carry.”

I’m quite sure many people choose not to have children because they can’t afford them. In fact I’d already agreed with that; again you’d have noticed this if you bothered to read for context. What I implied to Keith was that there must be other factors, since many people who can afford children choose not to have them anyway. Maybe one of these other factors is environmental consciousness, so it just might be useful to talk about voluntarily having fewer children for this reason.

Comment #161: asdf  on  06/29  at  04:50 PM

Read the comments, genius. I’m not “assuming” anything; plenty of people have set forth vegetarianism or veganism as part-and-parcel of GMO opposition and land use issues.

Your inability to produce a quote will prove you wrong, Chet.

It all goes hand in hand: vegetarianism, altie-medicine, anti-GMO, it’s all dangerous and stupid granola hippie nonsense. Ok, maybe that’s not fair. I actually like granola.

The only identified vegetarians I see in this thread, Amanda and myself, are both strongly pro-empiricism and anti-CAM. And we identify problems with the intellectual property laws that converge with GMOs, not with the technology per se. There are real problems with those laws; apparently you’re allowed to say as much, but if a vegetarian says the same thing, it’s woo.

Comment #162: asdf  on  06/29  at  05:19 PM

GMOs aren’t made because they’re better—they’re made because they are under the control of a company. The idea is to take control of existing foodstuffs—in other words, to abuse the patent system beyond recognition. If you grow corn, Monsanto can’t make a profit from that. The idea is to make it so your corn “belongs” to Monsanto. It’s <b>rent collection brought to the logical, outmost extreme.</i>

This is the completely fucking absurd kind of fail I’m talking about. Not a single sentence in the above is actually a true fact.

“GMOs aren’t made because they’re better” is a fact. Note that it’s not the same as saying “GMOs aren’t ever better.” Many are. But that’s not why they’re made; corporations do not and can not care about improving people’s lives. Their only legally legitimate motive can be profit.

Given the profit motive, there is an incentive to take genetics out of the public domain and into private hands. As Entomologista and I were discussing, we could avert this enclosure of the commons by instead publicly funding genetic research and enforcing a release of all publicly funded research back into the public domain. It will also be necessary to void all genetic patents.

Comment #163: asdf  on  06/29  at  05:31 PM

asdf, I put on my unsociable face because topics like these makes me feel like a combination of Odd John and Cassandra.  I’m not an expert on anything (though I know loads of biology), just a well educated and widely read layman.

shah8, I understand your argument. Not because you made yourself clear here, but because you consistently misspell “Ehrlich” so the search engines gave me some of your earlier posts on the subject. You’d do yourself a favor by copying and pasting your more patiently worded arguments.

I don’t agree that problems with John Stuart Mill or Catholicism will necessarily mean problems with an internationalist workers’ movement. Racially, culturally, and geographically exclusive solutions are directly counter to working class interests.

Comment #164: asdf  on  06/29  at  05:50 PM

Shah8, asdf and anyone else who might still be engaged.  You might want to look at some of Martha L. Crouch’s writing on biotech.  She herself was a professor of biology.

Comment #165: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  05:57 PM

Thanks for the tip, phylosopher.

Comment #166: asdf  on  06/29  at  06:00 PM

Providing better contraception and better infant mortality is probably a wash and we probably won’t slow population growth by much.

Actually I think this is completely untrue.

In nations with extremely high infant mortality, the high infant mortality is often part and parcel with a system that promotes high maternal mortality… because women do not get adequate reproductive medical care. Including access to contraception. In *every* nation that gave women equal or near-equal legal rights to men, including the right to contraception and the right to choose when and who to marry and the right to have a job without male permission, the birth rate dropped drastically. There are a few reasons for this, but they all work together.

- Most obviously: when women have the right to control reproduction, the people who have to do all the work are the ones who get to pick how much work gets done, so naturally, they choose to do less of it.
- Better status for women usually comes with a greater interest in avoiding child mortality, again because those who do the work and make the investment want to protect their investment (fathers love their babies, but worldwide, the welfare of children in society is held to a higher standard when women participate in law-making). Lower child mortality produces a *lot* fewer children—people who fear that half their kids will die will have more than twice as many kids as those who don’t.
- Low status for women produces situations where girls are not valuable to families. Both of the societies with the biggest population problem practice dowry, where girls are given away to the families of their husbands and do not participate in the continuation of their own family. Because girls are being raised for the benefit of someone else, no one wants girls, which leads to people having more children than they need unless they practice selective abortion (which they don’t all have access to) or infanticide (which is bad.)
- Women are ambitious. In societies where power and status can only come through being a mother, most women will seek to have as many kids as they can. In societies where power and status can be achieved in other ways, women will pursue other ways.

We can slow population growth *drastically* by aggressively promoting women’s rights as human rights. Access to contraception, abortion services, and good health care for *all* women. No little girls being forced to marry adult men. Women being given the authority to say no to sex, even with husbands, by their societies. Women being permitted to have education, and jobs. *This* is what will save the planet; increasing food output is important, but a stopgap measure.

We may well get to 10 billion before we can get the rest of the world on board with lowering the birth rate, so your points about feeding the world are important (and honestly 7 billion may be beyond easy carrying capacity). And the population reduction by birth rate decline is *low*—unlike the exponential growth of 2 parents = 4 children (or more), 2 parents = 1.7 children decreases the population only very slowly. Drastic measures such as enforcing 2 parents = 1 child are inhumane, and will not be adopted anywhere that isn’t a dictatorship. But that doesn’t change the fact that the *most* important thing we need to do for the health of the planet is to support worldwide women’s rights and better access to contraception for everyone. (In fact I think that a reliable male birth control might make the birth rate plummet; if *men* could take a medication that kept them from having kids unless they could afford them and were ready for them, and women were *also* doing so, the only children born would generally be those wanted by both parents. Which would be a good thing, but would be a lot fewer kids than we have now.)

Comment #167: Alara J Rogers  on  06/29  at  06:09 PM

Okay, how is this for size?

There is a difference in seeing and using empiricism as an utility, and percieving issues through logical positivist lenses.  However, people drift through these areas as if both sentiments are one and the same.  Hint, Hint.

Over time many philosophical are threaded through one another, and become mostly unintelligible to anyone but philosophers, some of the time.

It is useful to have some kind of awareness of the history of ideas (and not just so books like N. Stephenson’s Quicksilver trilogy becomes legible) because you have a strong idea of how people use ideas and how ideas affect people.  Liberal (the college kind) education at work, reinforcing critical thinking skillz!  One gets aware enough that one can see all that sparkly rhetoric and then ask cui bono—and have the tools to deconstruct along *multiple* axises of history, philosophy, philology, empiricism, pragmatism, ethics, sociology, and so on.

Simple awareness of population pressure arguments in previous societies is more than enough to tell you that it’s the third rail.  Nearly 100% of the time, it’s used as a method to subvert important processes in society and psychology.  It’s a fundementally anti-civil society argument and it appeals to atavistic/calvinist aspects of a certain kind of psyche.  It’s impossible to maintain an ethical program that directly targets population as that it would become a target for corruption for various important reasons—and it’s a program that by necessity involves multiple generations, which is something humans are *terrible* at.

Comment #168: shah8  on  06/29  at  06:20 PM

Idea corruption: don’t conflate encouragement and education with a “population program.”  They are not the same at all.

Comment #169: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  06:39 PM

I’m actively attempting to *prevent* conflation.  I’m saying that we shouldn’t associate many of the things that might help population or environmental stresses as a byproduct with population control.  Women’s rights over their own fertility is a good in and of themselves, and should not be boosted as any part of a population control mechanism.

What I’m really trying to get across is the dynamicism of certain ideas, because they are so useful to distasteful people with control of the social microphone.  Population arguments have been a pretty ready poison pill against more nebulous positions that aren’t readily clarified.  For example, if you can make it seem like the major reason we have women’s rights is because it’s good for population, then you can subvert the essential premise that women should have self-determination, because if women should choose to have “too many kids”, then people start talking about how she isn’t *really* a women we should respect the decisions of—which typically will splash over to unrelated women.  Reactionaries have used this kind of tactic before. 

Set up some nice liberal talk.  Then create a system that people are liable to fail, and then use that failure to disregard moral and social precepts in favor that societal needs demands we (the authority) must control some for the good of all.

This happens over, and over, and over again.  Why should we listen to Lucy and try again?

Comment #170: shah8  on  06/29  at  06:55 PM

Ending deforestation is a good in and of itself, but it requires a population reduction.

Comment #171: asdf  on  06/29  at  07:17 PM

So you’re a libertarian then Shah8?  That slide from “talk” as in education/discussion to inevitably “create a (official) system” sounds like much of the fear mongering goign on over health care or environmental and bank regs right now.

Comment #172: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  07:17 PM

Population has almost nothing to do with deforestation.  It has plenty to do with desertification of dry grasslands.  People outside of empires or outside of empire demands tend to have mutualistic relationships with the woods

Usury and empire generally has everything to do with deforestation, somewhat similar to the food issues in the original post.  Iron making, ship building, pressing marginal peoples to marginal lands, things like that.

Which is what one of my points are, it almost never matters how many there are in a society so much as how the society is structured and motivated.  A few people can wreak unholy environmental havoc, and many people can coexist with rather spectacularly wild biomes.

Comment #173: shah8  on  06/29  at  07:32 PM

I am explicitly not a glibertarian. 

They don’t really care about a civil society.  I do.  They don’t care about protecting the rights of others, because all they care about is the leeway to do what they wanna do.  I care about protecting the rights because those people can protect my right, ideally.

I’m not so much for gun-rights.

I’m just against thoughtless, privileged, liberalism that tells others what to do because they normalize their personal and social history (often heavily edited) as a benchmark for the conduct of others.

I have books like Shady Practices, Agroforestry and Gender Politics in the Gambia by Schroeder on my bookshelf. 

Here’s a review…
http://ir.ide.go.jp/dspace/bitstream/2344/249/1/ARRIDE_DE_Vol39(3)_2001.03.04.review_takane.pdf

I have many books like that.  Therefore, I have incorporated a degree of nuance.  Sometimes nuance isn’t important.  Sometimes it’s everything.

So I defy labels.

Comment #174: shah8  on  06/29  at  07:51 PM

Slash and burn deforestation occurs from the time of earliest agriculture, in the absence of empire. More people means more agriculture.

I know that a or the primary factor in the destruction of the Amazon is capitalist exploitation of indigenous peoples. But it isn’t the only factor, and an workers’ revolution would at best mean slowing the destruction, not ending it.

Comment #175: asdf  on  06/29  at  07:53 PM

poor people don’t just need to “learn” how to cook, shop and store - poor people need accessable stores that actually carry good food

This.

Honestly, there’s so much focus on the production end of the machine in this thread. The fact is, there’s already sustainable food production out there, most of us just can’t afford it in terms of time or money. In theory, I can go to the farmer’s market and get cheap produce that’s locally grown, and if I’m selective about buying in-season, I can even get organic stuff for less than the grocery store sometimes charges for not organic. The thing is, I need a car to get to the farmer’s market, time to get the produce into a state that I can store (did I mention it’s bulk) and a big-ass fridge that I don’t have to share with 5 other people. Well, shit, looks like I’m back where I started - biking to the nearest grocery store. I’m an environmentally aware person - I know the consequences of my food choices, and I sure as hell know how to cook, but I can’t eat sustainably all the time because of things beyond my control.

In theory, I could garden and grow at least some of my food. In practice, I can’t because I rent and consequently move frequently, and I don’t have the time to learn the skills that expert gardeners who may boast about not having to put too much work into their container gardens have, particularily in my region’s difficult, semi-arid climate. There’s a tremendous amount I don’t know about gardening, and more importantly I have other, more pressing demands on my time.

Comment #176: HonestB  on  06/29  at  07:55 PM

There is slash and burn, and then there is slash and burn.

Much of North America, wood, grasslands, whatever, have been managed by fire since time immemorial.  Didn’t mean that those forests were eliminated (for ranching in modern day S America).

It is interesting though, that if I read it correctly, your link said that slash and burn theories were challenged successfully wrt to SC Europe.

Comment #177: shah8  on  06/29  at  07:59 PM

It’s simply cheaper in terms of time and money to feed a family of 4 on McDonald’s hamburgers than to feed them fresh fruit and vegetables served with low-fat complex carbs and lean proteins.

And those lean proteins? Does Amanda say they have to be vegetarian? No. This is a reiteration of Michael Pollan talking from The Omnivore’s Dilemma, not Amanda recommending vegetarianism to anyone. In fact you’ll be hard pressed to find Amanda ever advocating vegetarianism for anyone but herself, to my distress.

You invented a reason to bring up and harangue vegetarians.

I should point out that this is completely absurd; it’s going to cost twice to three times as much to buy fresh veggies at the grocery store as it’s going to take to buy 2 happy meals, a chicken sandwich, and the Big Mac value meal. And it’s going to take about half the time.

Amanda says it’s cheaper and takes less time to buy McDonald’s. So you respond by saying “that’s absurd,” it’s cheaper and takes less time to buy McDonald’s, zomg Amanda is so stupid!

Hardly. And I know Amanda comes out for science and against meal moralizing, and I applaud that. But when someone says “you need to understand the limits of science”,

Now you’re quoting phylosopher, but you’re doing it in defense of your claim that “it all goes hand in hand: vegetarianism, altie-medicine, anti-GMO, it’s all dangerous and stupid granola hippie nonsense.” That’s not going to work either. Phylosopher is not a vegetarian, and mentions eating frog legs.

Because, frankly, it’s a lot easier for him to interpret his life when there’s a large, conspiratorial, hidden force for malefaction responsible for everything unfortunate. Call it Satan or call it Monsanto, this is about a religious desire to set up The Bad Guy who’s responsible for all the world’s ills.

Someone like Phylosopher, it’s about religion for them. Scientific research and evidence, he’s skeptical of - but when someone tells him plant phytochemicals will cure cancer, or that Monsanto is putting nerve toxins in the corn, his vaunted skepticism goes right out the window.

I don’t see phylosopher saying anything about nerve toxins in Monsanto’s corn. You are inventing straw men.

This is why it’s so hard to have conversations with you, Chet.

Comment #178: asdf  on  06/29  at  08:18 PM

There is slash and burn, and then there is slash and burn.

Much of North America, wood, grasslands, whatever, have been managed by fire since time immemorial.  Didn’t mean that those forests were eliminated (for ranching in modern day S America).

There are species that only live in old-growth forest, requiring several centuries without human interference. The forests that grow back after slash and burn are not a replacement.

Comment #179: asdf  on  06/29  at  08:23 PM

“you need to understand the limits of science”, that’s a phrase I recognize as code for “I’m about to tell you the kind of woo I’m into, and I don’t want to hear a peep against it.” Someone like Phylosopher, it’s about religion for them. Scientific research and evidence, he’s skeptical of - but when someone tells him plant phytochemicals will cure cancer, or that Monsanto is putting nerve toxins in the corn, his vaunted skepticism goes right out the window. “

Gee Chet, looks like you need a new decoder ring.  The limits of science comment is a simple caution that science can’t find what it either isn’t looking for or doesn’t yet have the means to see.  Like micronutrients (like flavonoids and their documented anti-oxidation properties).  Not as a cure of disease, but as an important part of a complete and healthy diet. 

BTW, the toxins in corn - which wasn’t even my post - a little remedial reading course can help you with that Chet, - comes from a mainstream biologist’s explanation.  That’s how GURT/terminator works.   

Chet-child, you don’t have a clue about the depths of scepticism here.  Scepticism about anyone with a profit motive.  The bigger the profit, the more askance the look- whether it’s alt medicine and autism or Monsanto and RoundUp ready corn.  The reason sceptics often come down on the side of the “natural” is that it doesn’t as a rule have a huge profit motive, mainly because it tends to be labor intensive.  The minute it gets corporatized, processed or automated, the scepticism/examination gets revived.

Comment #180: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  08:34 PM

Thanks for the booktip, shah8, though your link didn’t work.  I found this in another review:

“He shows that questions of power and social justice at the community level need to enter the debates of policymakers and specialists in environment and development planning. “

I think we agree here, but I’m sometimes finding your phrasing…unusual. Certainly local - is this book where the oft told anecdote about the NGO trying to build individual versus communal wells is from?

Comment #181: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  08:43 PM

“Population has almost nothing to do with deforestation.  It has plenty to do with desertification of dry grasslands.  People outside of empires or outside of empire demands tend to have mutualistic relationships with the woods”

Only if you think that forest exist only “over there.”  I watch daily as treed lots get paved and built on. AMerican desire for larger homes and lots and spread to outlying burbs to get them also contributes.

Comment #182: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  08:46 PM

Completely false - GMO crops are heavily regulated by the EPA following guideline recommendations from the USDA. In the field, unapproved GMO hybrids used in research are sterilized long before they can fertilize or be fertilized by other crops.

Way to miss the fucking point, Chet. Both the FDA and the EPA are captured administrations, so those they “regulate” are de facto acting without regulation.

Hey, that’s news to Monsanto, Dow Agroscience, and Syngenta, which still make millions a year off their non-GMO hybrid varietals. (Glyphosphate resistant breeds, for instance, which were not created by genetic engineering.) But they “can’t make a profit.” Sure.

Oh, your love of fail has no limits. You deliberately read into “grow corn” the notion that ONLY GMO CROPS COUNT IN THIS FORMULATION, when obviously anything with a corps’ fingerprints on it can be used to generate profits. I never thought reading comp could be such a challenge.

That should be the way it is NOoc.  But think about this - if you are an office worker, how dirty does the shirt that’s worn (often over another shirt) really get in one day. 

It’s utterly filthy if I’ve spent 10 minutes in a hugely busy city (Manhattan, LA and the like) in high summer. Further, I know plenty of professionals that wear and re-wear clothing because they literally don’t have time to change or pull all-nighters and such. Freshly laundered clothing ranges from a health issue to a social comfort issue to a luxury and the blanket statement “Americans don’t re-wear clothes” is simply bullshit. Hell, there is a cliche in the U.S. that male bachelors use a “smell test” to check to see if a shirt or underwear is still good. It seems the assumption contradicts cliches; what that does to this unprovable assertion I have no idea since it’s hard to believe it could be less false.

You are inventing straw men.
This is why it’s so hard to have conversations with you, Chet.

He does that constantly. Chet has this own internal monologue of bullshit, which is fine when you’re a homeless drunk but it’s damaging to society when combined with the perverse urge to share. Then he’s shocked when we insist we aren’t the crazed beings in his fucked-up fever dreams. It’s uncanny. Check other threads—he’ll literally go on for days about arguments no one every made, and when someone points out “hey asshole, I never said that” he’ll just talk about something else.

Comment #183: No One of Consequence  on  06/29  at  09:01 PM

What I have been strident about is a concern for political ecology, and that we actually need to take into account what target people and society (including the hatorade people and the reactionaries) will actually do, whether that be ourselves or others.

asdf, being oppositional isn’t going to get a rational response from me.  If I shoot down something you say, that doesn’t really mean you get to say, well whatever!  I’m right!  I’ve already discussed some of this, and you can read more about it from Charles C. Mann’s book 1491.

phylosopher, I did say outside of empire or outside of empire demands.  Moreover, the forests you see being cut down are almost certainly non-oldgrowth forest as well ?:~).  I certainly don’t think that this is a good thing, but again, it’s not really because of population pressures.  We cut down forests where I live because of the suburban ethos, where everyman gets to be a country lord and overconsume like one.  Meanwhile few apartment buildings are being built because most people with assets are steered towards houses or condos at worse.  Thus many people lack adequate housing, when that can easily be accomodated.

Comment #184: shah8  on  06/29  at  09:11 PM

OK, NOoC, it was a comparison of American attitudes to European ones “in general.”  And that Americans in general, have more clothes (often more but cheaper) than Europeans in general and that we tend to wash them in general much more frequently, because in general, there is a stigma to wearing the same article of clothing two days in a row.  Happier?

And barring visible stains, what is wrong with a smell test?  That this cliche is used as a criticism actually supports my point; someone who uses the olfactory senses to determine the actual hygienic state of clothes is to be laughed at.

Comment #185: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  09:23 PM

Two points:

A hybrid can be dangerous without being a GMO.  See reference to the algae blooms in the Mediterranean… A plant that grew wonderfully in human controlled tanks was poisonous to nearly all wild grazers.

A hybrid can be owned (trademarked, not patented, and made illegal to copy) without GMO.

shah8:  Did you know the county I live in has more bedrooms than it does people?  And yet, most apartments are occupied by more than one person to bedroom?  (like the apartments around me, which most have two to four residents to bedrooms.. children, roomates, etc?)

Comment #186: Crissa  on  06/29  at  09:26 PM

“I did say outside of empire or outside of empire demands.  Moreover, the forests you see being cut down are almost certainly non-oldgrowth forest as well ?:~).  I certainly don’t think that this is a good thing, but again, it’s not really because of population pressures.  We cut down forests where I live because of the suburban ethos, where everyman gets to be a country lord and overconsume like one.  Meanwhile few apartment buildings are being built because most people with assets are steered towards houses or condos at worse.  Thus many people lack adequate housing, when that can easily be accomodated.

shah8 on 06/29 at 08:11 PM”

Let’s look at how population impacts the application of that ethos though.  (and this would happen if the US continued to grow through birth, too, so this isn’t a critique of immigration).

Immigration is often driven by overpopulation in the home country (China, India).  Immigrants come to the US and tend to first go to cities where they buy homes.  This keeps home prices up.  THe homeowner can then move up (and often out) which drives new home construction into the ag land and woodlots. 

Were population not rising, we would see a donut shaped pattern with the cities being an empty hole in the middle.  That isn’t the case, so it is population + your suburban country lord overconsumption.  Few apartment buildings or even duplexes are being built in the burbs because rentals are seen as letting in minorities, and renters as property devaluing drifters.

Comment #187: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  09:32 PM

asdf, being oppositional isn’t going to get a rational response from me.  If I shoot down something you say, that doesn’t really mean you get to say, well whatever!  I’m right!  I’ve already discussed some of this, and you can read more about it from Charles C. Mann’s book 1491.

Of course, it can’t be that you aren’t making a convincing case. It must be that I’m just being oppositional for the fun of it.

Despite your at best dismissive, often abusive, responses that amount to little more than assuring me you’re well read, I’ve been trying to have a fair and productive discussion with you. If anyone is being oppositional, it’s not me.

You merely assert that 10 billion people are no worse for a sustainable future than 1 billion, but you offer no mechanism for how this could be so.

Comment #188: asdf  on  06/29  at  09:48 PM

phylosopher

Read Mike Davis’s Late Victorian Holocausts.

Also if you knew anything at all about historical immigration pathways, or cared to incorporate the Exclusion act into your ideas, well…  Let’s just say that your hypothesis is a bunch of malarky, and not even close, historically.  Chinese (49’ers) and Japanese (farmers) didn’t move to cities originally, and there were a hell of alot more Polynesians and Lebanese than Indians coming into the US.

Now, if we look at modern day immigration, that is still not very true.  No immigrant from stressed areas like interior China or central India is going to be able to afford new houses.  They can’t even afford apartments.  They generally have to share a house, several large families.  These places are often in the exurbs (at least in Georgia) and not in the city.  You might be able to say this about Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, or Toronto, but not so much US cities.

Ecological devastation is just a different topic than population pressures.  They just are.  For one example, a kingdom in SE Asia collasped because they cut down all their trees and then suffered a heat-island effect that killed their crops.  Why were the trees cut down?  To make bricks.  Just to make fucking bricks for a big fucking temple.  Not for the welfare of any bodies.  The Great Leap Forward?  Same old shit, different day.

fuckin’ manias

Comment #189: shah8  on  06/29  at  09:58 PM

OK, NOoC here are a few of the items I found supporting my contention:
(from Life in the US a guide for immigrants):“Clothing Should Fit. Whether business or casual, the clothing should fit well, and be kept clean and neat. That means wearing a shirt, and certainly underwear, for a maximum of one day before throwing it in the wash. Many Americans find body odor extremely offensive (even though the same odor would not be out of place in certain other countries).”

Americans do 6-8 loads of wash per week for a family of 4 (per studies), and many report even higher amounts (per blogs).

Comment #190: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  10:06 PM

“Also if you knew anything at all about historical immigration pathways, or cared to incorporate the Exclusion act into your ideas, well… Let’s just say that your hypothesis is a bunch of malarky, and not even close, historically.  Chinese (49’ers) and Japanese (farmers) didn’t move to cities originally, and there were a hell of alot more Polynesians and Lebanese than Indians coming into the US. “

Nice try, but I suggest you add “How to Win Friends and Influence People” becuase you ain’t shit in that department. 

Ok, Now that we’ve covered the ritual insult exchange pissing contest, that’s not at all true of cities like NYC, Chicago or the rust belts towns.  China Town, GreekTown, Ukranian Village, Little Italy, Polonia, those names just got created out of thin air?  Yes, there is some rural to rural migration.  But for most immigrants, one goes where jobs are VERY plentiful - and that isn’t a rural area unless you’re a migrant harvester. 

I cited China and India for today’s migration patterns.

Comment #191: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  10:16 PM

  poor people don’t just need to “learn” how to cook, shop and store - poor people need accessable stores that actually carry good food

This.

Careful there, denelian and HonestB, or phylosopher’s going to start slinging nasty personal attacks at you.

Poor people are only NOT lazy and NOT spoiled if we’re so overwhelmingly grateful to her for Explaining It All to us that we overlook all the real-world flaws in her “solutions”.

Comment #192: kristin  on  06/29  at  10:20 PM

Here ya go, CHet.  Yep, you’re right, people are talking about the toxins in the seeds of GURT/terminator crops:

“Will seeds containing the toxin made by Terminator be safe to eat?

In fact, the effects of the toxin on the uses of the seed are a serious question. This issue is discussed in the patent at the end of page 8. There the authors say that “n cotton that would be grown commercially only selected lethal genes could be used since these proteins could impact the final quality of seeds….If the seed is not a factor in the commercial value of a crop (e.g., in forage crops, ornamentals or plants grown for the floral industry) any lethal gene should be acceptable.”

This is dangerously reductionist thinking, because people are not the only organisms that interact with seeds. In forage crops, for example, not all of the forage is always harvested before seeds are mature, depending on conditions. How will a particular toxin affect birds, insects, fungi and bacteria that eat or infect the seeds? If a forage crop with toxin-laden seeds is left in the field, and the seeds come in contact with the soil, how will that affect the ecology of soil organisms? These are important questions because a variety of specific organisms are necessary for the healthy growth of plants. Further, a floral or ornamental crop with Terminator may happen to grow near a related crop where the seeds are used, and if pollination occurs, the seeds will contain toxin without that farmer knowing. The toxin could end up in products without anyone’s knowledge. For example, an ornamental sunflower could spread Terminator to an oilseed variety, and then the toxin could end up in edible oil or in sunflower seed meal.

Other potential problems with making novel toxins in edible seeds have to do with allergenicity. The RIP toxin described earlier may not be directly poisonous to animals, but may cause allergic reactions. If the seeds are being mixed with the general food supply, it will be difficult to trace this sort of effect.”

Comment #193: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  10:21 PM

Careful there, denelian and HonestB, or phylosopher’s going to start slinging nasty personal attacks at you.

Poor people are only NOT lazy and NOT spoiled if we’re so overwhelmingly grateful to her for Explaining It All to us that we overlook all the real-world flaws in her “solutions”.

kristin on 06/29 at 09:20 PM

No Kristin, I do agree that there are food deserts and actively work to help fill those gaps in the supply chain.  But you, poor thing, would probably complain that whatever the solution, communal garden, CSA, co-op store, farmers market, whatver, was too far, too close, to hot, too cold or in some way didn’t meet your special requirement or required you to do something in return and therefore whatever was done shouldn’t have been done, even if it helped others because ...it didn’t solve your problems.

You project any personal problems that you may have onto all who might use X.  So really Kristin, unlike you, I don’t extrapolate to everyone else’s valid criticisms of the system as it stands.

Comment #194: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  10:32 PM

I would guess KMT BERRY was talking about Bt, Chet. 

And the posted article is uncited for a reason, Chet. 

But what it does show is that toxins, whose effects when genetically manipulated into widespread monocrops are as yet unknown are a concern.. 

So, yes, Chet people are talking about the toxins in GURT/terminator GMO’s.

Comment #195: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  10:44 PM

</i></i></i></i></i>

Are we not reading the same post? She specifically suggested replacing burgers with vegetables. If she didn’t intend to imply vegetarianism, it’s somewhat incongruous not to compare meat with meat.

Context, Chet. She begins by citing a Michael Pollan book, in a review of a film that features Pollan extensively and gives him top billing. And what is Pollan’s famous slogan? “Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.” In this context, the phrase “fresh fruit and vegetables served with low-fat complex carbs and lean proteins” has a very clear meaning. It’s not advocacy of vegetarianism. It’s Michael Pollan’s plant-heavy omnivorous diet. To be even clearer, she goes on to talk about feeding cows grass to produce healthier meat.

“I don’t see phylosopher saying anything about nerve toxins in Monsanto’s corn.”

I never said that he did.

“Someone like Phylosopher, it’s about religion for them. Scientific research and evidence, he’s skeptical of - but when someone tells him plant phytochemicals will cure cancer, or that Monsanto is putting nerve toxins in the corn, his vaunted skepticism goes right out the window.”

So you didn’t accuse him of saying it, you accused him of believing it. I see.

But did you not read the very first comment in this thread? How can you pretend that these things aren’t being said?

I’m not. I’m objecting to you pinning these statements on vegetarians in general, or on particular people who didn’t say them.

Comment #196: asdf  on  06/29  at  10:50 PM

You project any personal problems that you may have onto all who might use X.  So really Kristin, unlike you, I don’t extrapolate to everyone else’s valid criticisms of the system as it stands.

Seriously, fuck you. It’s obvious to anyone with a shred of intelligence and reading comprehension that I wrote about my “personal problems” to illustrate from experience how preparing healthy foods can be hard even for motivated, skilled and foodloving people of low income.

You chose to take that and make it personal, it wasn’t personal when I wrote it, any more than it’s personal when denelian writes about how tomatoes at her grocery store are a dollar apiece or HonestB writes about how zie can’t have a vegetable garden because zie rents and moves frequently.

I don’t know what the hell your problem with me is, but knock it off.

Comment #197: kristin  on  06/29  at  10:57 PM

But terminator is in exactly zero market GMO’s.

Yet Monsanto went on to purchase Delta and Pine Land Co. and their terminator patents in 2006. This means they’re going to try to bring the seeds to market eventually. A corporation does not deliberately waste money. That’s an investment, and it will have to be brought to market at some point to get a return on the investment.

Comment #198: asdf  on  06/29  at  11:09 PM

Organic foods are a million-dollar scam perpetrated on gullible liberals and parents.

Right, pesticides never hurt anyone. Jesus, Chet.

Comment #199: asdf  on  06/29  at  11:12 PM

Bullshit Kristin, you’ve come out guns blazing whenever you find something I post since the weight thread.  Then what, you make a completely gratuitous insult (those posts were far upthread and I hadn’t responded to them even though I’m posting a lot on this thread) so you call me out and then bitch when I respond.

You come across as a pessimist and a whiner who attacks anyone who tries to help or suggest a solution.  It’s mutual sweetie, F-off yourself.

Comment #200: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  11:18 PM

</i> well phylosopher, better get you own copy of how to win friends and influence people

?:~)

P.S. you were the one that mentioned chinese and indians and people immigrating from ecologically stressed areas.  Ain’t a problem of mine if you switch to other people when I bring up facts, no?

Comment #201: shah8  on  06/29  at  11:19 PM

I know not to fight lost causes, shah8.  But Iwill defend myslef form public attacks.

In what way am I switching?  I would say you were, bringing up a book about 19th century immigration.  Perhaps Georgia is different than large midwest cities?  Of course someone from a rural poor section isn’t necessarily immigrating here straight to a single family home.  But it is certainly the case that their movement from rural to city drives up the cost of housing for young professionals in their home country who then may choose to emigrate.

Comment #202: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  11:36 PM

you’ve come out guns blazing whenever you find something I post since the weight thread.

Right, cause I never disagree with anyone else here.

It’s not all about you.

Comment #203: kristin  on  06/29  at  11:39 PM

Oh no, I’m just amused now.

Really, sweetie, you need to reread what you’re writing.  You’ve gone into full on incoherence now.  I’ll be sure to tell my neighbors that the mexicans are coming and saving them from a huge loss on their housing sale.

wait, you know?  That’s what alot of realtors have hoped for…that wealthy investors from overseas will buy up all those good deals.  You gotta home to sell?

Comment #204: shah8  on  06/29  at  11:47 PM

Really, Chet?  It’s a matter of degree.  A movie like Food Inc will never come close to what Monsanto makes in a year.  A small family grass farm will never come close to what a CAFO makes. 

AND for the record, I’m sceptical about certified organic, because it’s been scammed by Big Org players
.
AS for the science, you’d better tell the AMerican Heart Association to stop citing the science about flavonoids and heart disease. I’m with them when they say we need more study of micronutrients.  I happen to think that science has a valuable place in explaining correlations, but not necessarily to then create processed substitutes for the natural product.

HFCS is one of those correlations.  Repeat, we had this discussion and looking at evidence on both sides the preponderance seems to fall on the side that it is at least a contributing factor in the obesity/diabetes problem , not just because there’s a correlation, but because science has explained a mechanism for it too.  Studies in mice have corroborated it,  human studies not yet done as far as I’ve seen.

Comment #205: phylosopher  on  06/29  at  11:49 PM

Right, Shah8. Even though I said nothign about Latin American immigrants to avoid just the kind of remark you made.

Reed Ueda has a book oout.  But here’s the short version.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/Homebuyingguide/P111023.asp

Seems everyone but you is incoherent on the issue.

Comment #206: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  12:20 AM

/me tries in vain to hold it in…

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*snigger*

Did you not realize that I was referring to links like those?  That faint smell of desperation?  I am not *that* bad a writer.  Check out Calculated Risk blog sometimes, you’ll find that there is a nice David Leareh bingo game there.

No, not the mexicans, nor the chinese, nor any other ethnic group/nationalities are going to be that greater fool for house poor suburbanite.

And reed ueda isn’t backing your sentiments.  too bad.

Comment #207: shah8  on  06/30  at  12:32 AM

Did you not realize that I was referring to links like those?  That faint smell of desperation?  I am not *that* bad a writer.

Readers beg to differ.

Comment #208: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  12:54 AM

</i>Oh, Kristen, I wish I had come back to this thread!

When a friend of mine was going through a rough spot, I helped her make a food budget that relied on 1) WIC foods, which she didn’t qualify for but which are to some degree price controlled and are therefore a good deal anyway 2) things she could get in tiendas. It relied on having a rice cooker, a crock pot, about thirty minutes a day spare time, and tastebuds of absolute impassive steel. It was $30 a week in our area just to meet your basic nutritional needs assuming you were taking a B12 supplement; it went up to $45 real fast if there was any fresh food, variety, or, say, dairy that wasn’t a giant chunk of WIC cheese. For one person, that’s doable, but when you start multiplying that for dependent family members (who probably have expectations of things like ever having treats ever) I can see how it gets completely more expensive than Micky D’s fast. It was definitely, definitively more expensive than a diet that doesn’t meet your nutritional needs at all but provides caloric bulk.

Now, there are probably tricks that I don’t know - the friend in question didn’t have the wherewithal, for example, to shop at warehouse stores or to buy ahead in bulk.

Also, I am so sick of hearing about how things are magically better in Europe - a complicated place composed of forty-eight countries, three hundred languages, a variety of systems of government, which experiences poverty, overconsumption, and a variety of social ills. I am expecting to hear how they have unicorns any day now. Basically, I wish people would explain where they heard that in Europe people buy fewer t-shirts. And then make reference to specific places, instances, examples, laws, and policies.

Comment #209: purpleshoes  on  06/30  at  10:26 AM

T-shirts?  No purpleshoes, unless you are referrign to the type with slogans on it that you get as souvenirs but don’t really need as articles of clothing.

The reference was to European (continental) but French in particular clothes buying and laundry habits.

And since you asked, here are a few quick articles that back it up:

http://www.factio-magazine.com/SPECIALFEATURES/des__DressFrench.htm

http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f58/4-5-piece-french-wardrobe-29674.html

http://www.annebarone.com/abcs.5techs.html

http://www.wardrobeoxygen.com/2007/10/reminder-more-isnt-better.html

Yes, they are fashion articles, but where better to go for info on clothes?

Comment #210: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  11:15 AM

phylosopher, thank you. While I would qualify that statement as “people claim chic parisiennes buy fewer clothes”, not “Europeans buy fewer clothes”, a source is so much nicer than an unsourced blanket statement about a whole continent.

I did a google for “french clothing statistics” (not very precise, but I wasn’t sure what I was looking for) and found a couple of market reports indicating that the major clothing market players in France right now are two domestic brand groups (Vivarte and Etam - I took a look at a couple of their brands on Ebay, where they seem to go for pretty standard department store prices), Gap, H&M;, and Zara. These are upmarket outlets compared to Target and Forever 21, yes. All the first google results also made reference to French shoppers being notoriously price-conscious.

The only contrasting numbers I could find were that about 3% of household spending seems to be on clothing in France, while 5% of household spending seems to be on clothing in the U.S.

So there you are (point not particularly disproven). I just really hate generalizations about whole continents with no proof to back it up. And I am very suspicious of the progressive tendency to venerate Europe without making reference to specific programs or statistics. I feel like it weakens our point, which is that everyone is living on the same planet we do and has social problems and poor households trying to make ends meet and the occasional elected official who’s a real bastard etc. etc, but that some countries / societies seem to have made specific choices which have in many cases produced measurably better outcomes.

(H&M;and Zara, I just want to note, both have really firm ethical manufacturing policies in place, so in that case France is kicking our asses ethical-consumption-wise).

Comment #211: purpleshoes  on  06/30  at  11:48 AM

I’m also speaking from anecdotal evidence of both European national colleagues and international students (both ways - Americans back from Europe and European students here).  In discussions of “differences”  in the clothing realm, all seem to cite: small closets, handwashing of delicate garments, and the laundromat prices (lots of hang drying still done in Europe in general). 

When it comes to food the philosophy seems to transfer, smaller refrigerators and kitchens,  more frequent shopping, but better quality produce. 

Do you have that site and perhaps they have a food purchase comparison, too?  Though I seem to remember a website not too long ago that had photos of families from around the world with their weekly food purchases.

Comment #212: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  12:58 PM

Well, here’s a report from the Family Farm Alliance, though I don’t know what their sources are.

I have heard about the smaller refrigerators in Europe thing. I ate the most produce I’ve ever eaten (I mean, I ate beets. On purpose.) when I lived near a daily farmer’s market and had no fridge at all, personally. But I also had about five hours a day free time to cook it, and quite a nice income for the area (conversion rates). When your project collapses for a month because of national politics you can make breakfast last until lunchtime, basically.

Comment #213: purpleshoes  on  06/30  at  01:48 PM

“Well, now, wait a minute. Which is it, Phylo? Are micronutrients beyond the scope of science, beyond “science’s limitations”, or is there sound science demonstrating the existence and effectiveness of micronutrients? You don’t seem so sure, because you’ve made both those contradictory claims, now.

Either nicronutrients are beyond science’s limits, in which case they’re woo, or they’re well within the capacity to be detected and studied by science, in which case you don’t need to invoke “the limitations of science” to talk about them. But this seems to be the pattern with you, which I identified a few posts ago - you support science when it supports your woo, but when it doesn’t, well, your woo must be beyond “the limitations of science.”

It’s a religious argument, because that’s what this is for you. Religion. “

NO Chet, it’s that you’re an asshole with second grade (at best) literacy skills. 

The contradiction is what YOU inferred from my posts, but incorrectly.  Micronutrients like flavinoids, or certain lipids in breastmilk went unrecognized for decades by science.  Meanwhile, based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence, regular humans found benefits from practices incorporating them.  (The French paradox.) 

Eventually enough anecdotal evidence mounted so science finally funded studies which identified them.  Now we know (probably) they are what is beneficial about red wine, blue berries, etc.  But science can’t claim (with certainty) that it is the flavinoids, and if you just take this flavinoid pill, you can forego the red wine and blueberries.  Because the flavioids could just be a marker for a “nano” nutrient.

Comment #214: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  11:42 PM

“To the contrary. The preponderance of evidence is against you - in every human study there has never been a detectable link between HFCS and obesity or diabetes greater than regular table sugar. Sugar in general isn’t great for you, but the scientific evidence is pretty clear that HFCS isn’t any worse than any other sugar. You’re simply wrong about this. ”  said Chet

Nope.  All the “no difference” studies have been funded by the little triumvirate of Cargill, ADM and Monsanto.  ANd those seem fundamentally flawed becasue they separate out the sucrose and glucose numbers. But I’m guessing you already knew this and are just being disingenuous.

And there is no study that can deny that making a sweetener cheaper contributes to more consumption.  ANd gee, isn’t that how it is marketed?  as the cheaper sugar?  Now what was it you were saying about not having it both ways?

Comment #215: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  11:49 PM

Unfortunately, stuff like that high fructose corn syrup cola get counted as “food.”  And that Twinkie.  I’m with Pollan on this one - we need to take that stuff off the “food” list and come up with some other category for it.

Comment #216: phylosopher  on  06/30  at  11:52 PM

That’s an adult having to continue dealing with an illogical child throwing another temper tantrum, Chettie.  Tell us, did you stamp your foot when you typed “No, they don’t?”

In other words, something doesn’t exist until science proves it does?  That’s called scientism, Chet, and it makes science a “religion” just as much as any bible thumping cult does by claiming all “regular” observations are unreliable.

We’re in agreement about further study, but quite often, science has refused or scientists have found difficulty finding the funds to study just those paradoxes.

If you didn’t have your head so far up your ass, thinking I’m attacking science, you might find that that “limits of science” quote is one that’s been around since the beginning at least of this century, and is often used to explain to those who want to discredit science that they are the ones who are wrong, because they presume too much of science, becuase they don’t understand inductive reasoning which is the methodology of science.  You really ought to expand you horizons a bit Chet, before you bash what you’ve obviously had no contanct with.

And, that’s not a new claim that HFCS cause obesity due to ubiquitousness.  Saying HFCS is harmful to health doesn’t mean we have to stay only in the narrow realm of chemical reactions, though I can understand how you would feel uncomfortable outside that realm.

Comment #217: phylosopher  on  07/01  at  10:30 AM
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