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Next entry: The Republican National Committee Enjoys Chicken Fingers Previous entry: Q of the day—bad tippers, part 2

Bamboo Review: The Eliminationists

I finished David Neiwert’s new book The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right right before I left for New York, and now I’m back and have some time to really review it. I did an interview with David on RH Reality Check a couple of weeks ago, and it was really interesting.  We talked a lot about the current right wing movement’s tendency towards eliminationist rhetoric, and how it’s resulted in a number of murders and terrorist threats since the Obama election.  For a podcast about reproductive rights, and a short interview, that’s about as much as we could cover.  Obviously, eliminationism is a major issue with reproductive rights, since encouraging their followers to dehumanize and murder providers has been a part of the anti-choice movement for a long time now.  But the book covers a lot more territory, looking at fascism and social movements like it, and spelling out a history of American eliminationism. 

The way the anti-choice movement has rolled for a long time has become the mainstream of American conservatism, and the result is incredibly scary.  David’s hardly claiming that mainstream American conservatism is fascist, but there are fascist elements in its margins, and more disturbingly, those marginal ideas are rapidly being mainstreamed through people he calls “transmitters”—-people like Sarah Palin, Lou Dobbs, and even Rush Limbaugh, who put a smiley face on eliminationist ideas and make them more palatable to the public.  This has been going on since the 90s, really, and I’d argue it was one reason that the mainstream conservative movement embraced the anti-democratic idea that it was acceptable to impeach a rightfully elected American President by any means necessary.  Not, as liberals were arguing with about Bush, because he was a war criminal, or any kind of criminal at all. Whatever it took—-getting rid of Clinton was the goal, and no matter how illegal or unethical the means, it had to be done.  Luckily, they failed, but they were just successful enough to get an appetite for it. 

David focuses on the funnel between far right nutjobs cranking out ideas that justify eliminating your opposition, mainly through inciting panic about them (such as anti-choicers do about abortion providers, or immigration hysterics do about immigrants), or dehumanizing them (those groups get it, as do all liberals—-David amasses an enormous amount of evidence that conservatives increasingly use vermin metaphors to talk about liberals).  I’d add to this that right wingers are growing increasingly tolerant of discourse that suggests that inconvenient people should be squeezed out of the democratic system altogether, from demanding that women’s suffrage be repealed to seeking ways to prove that Obama is ineligible to be President.  Once you’ve absorbed the idea that it’s legitimate to get rid of power-sharing with liberals by any means necessary, violence becomes much easier to justify. 

All this plays out in interesting ways.  It’s not just the uptick in domestic terrorism, though that alone is troubling.  It also laid the groundwork for kneejerk conservative support for Bush’s insane power grab and torture program.  Once you start to absorb eliminationist ideas, then it’s a quick leap to suggesting that it’s okay for a conservative President to shut down the democratic system, if it accomplishes the goal of shutting liberals out.  And of course, the torture situation is a direct result of eliminationist rhetoric—-that people who’ve been rounded up and tortured may even be innocent of any wrongdoing doesn’t give supporters pause, because they’re so full up on hatred towards Muslims that the idea of a Muslim who is not the enemy seems inconceivable to them.  David also traces the relationship between eliminationist rhetoric and hate crimes, specifically noting that the more hysterical wingnuts get about immigration, the worse the hate crime rate against Latinos gets.

But what really makes this book so great is that David rejects the American tendency to forget the past, and places the current right wing movement in a long historical context, to show that eliminationism is far from impossible in American society.  He places this in the context of the genocide of Native Americans, the use of lynching and running black people out of town that characterized the late 19th/early 20th century, and the internment camps for Japanese-Americans that resulted in a permanent destruction of the majority of Japanese-Americans’ livelihood as farmers.  The enemies of conservatism have been more nebulous and harder to define on sight since then, but the increasing racist hysteria is scary in large part because it gives right wingers focus.  David also careful explains what fascism is and what it isn’t, and how the biggest problem right now isn’t that conservatives are fascist, but that they play footsie with fascism.

The good news from my perspective is that the American public seems eager to push back.  The NFL’s rejection of Rush Limbaugh, and the impotence displayed by right wingers in terms of getting anyone to care, is a heartening sign.  The danger that David spells out is from right wing ideas being transmitted by mainstream figures and gaining popularity; but the rejection of Limbaugh shows that some people with real power are willing to stop that process.  In general, the more shrill and hateful the Republican party gets, the fewer people are willing to call themselves Republicans, and this is a heartening development. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:33 PM • (63) Comments

Something particularly useful in this book was how he detailed Manichean Dualism and illustrated it as a core component of Eliminationists. It isn’t just that liberals are bad, or Latinos are a threat to “normal Americans.” There is a huge component of self-aggrandizement, too, which is essential to justifying the exclusion of all Other groups.

I had a fairly honest conversation with a glibertarian recently, and pretty well nailed him down by illustrating that the 1950s was also one of the most socialized periods in history. This is a particularly effective point, because whatever the reality of those days actually was, the Leave It to Beaver narratives of this Golden Age are pretty essential to these people. He finally responded: “People had different values then.”

Good is Good, and it is Good in spite of everything that would force an eliminationist to reevaluate their concept of Good. Everything else is Bad and—more than that—is attempting to victimize Good. It is a world view of gods and devils and epic classes between the Truthy and the Uncomfortable. It is perfectly absolutist, and pretty much unguided by any fact-based criteria.

It really is a rhetorical strategy and belief system that exists only to exist. Anyone who confronts this beast becomes an Other and a target (like the Dixie Chicks, and you see it too with the “traitors in our midst” conflicts like in NY-23). It isn’t an ideology reaching up from the far-right to take over, it is an atavistic movement sustained by the ambition of its leaders and the fears of its constituents.

Comment #1: humanadverb  on  10/25  at  01:27 PM

In this morning’s paper, Minneapolis Star-Trib, there was a column by a local frothing-at-the-mouth psychopath about the settlement in the 6 Imams case, where the 6 Imams were yanked off the plane, detained, and questioned, because a rightwing coward reported that they were acting suspiciously, doing things like praying and switching seats into a “9-11” formation, whatever the hell that is. The terror-speak these idiots use is completely pulled out of someone’s boil-wearing ass. (Oh FSM, drip thy tomato-based sauce on their peroxided heads and starch-white-shirts).

She, in this column, blasted the judge for being skeptical, of the need to detain someone, without any other reason than that a Caucasian person is frightened, and that in the heat of the moment, the Homeland Security Agency (horrible name, if anyone needs proof of the Bushies hypernationalistic, dare I say, fascist?, tendencies, it is that name) should be allowed to do what needs to be done.

Unspoken in her column (and this, I hesitate to use the word, person, is locally famous for muslim hatred, Katherine Kersten, Star-Trib editorial columnist) is her belief (and, I would say, deepest desire) that ‘what needs to be done’ would include dragging them off the plane and shooting them on the tarmac.

I’m sorry, I know we are supposed to be better than saying this, but I hate her. And them. Guantanamo is too good for them.

Comment #2: paleotectonics  on  10/25  at  02:00 PM

The good news from my perspective is that the American public seems eager to push back.  The NFL’s rejection of Rush Limbaugh, and the impotence displayed by right wingers in terms of getting anyone to care, is a heartening sign.  The danger that David spells out is from right wing ideas being transmitted by mainstream figures and gaining popularity; but the rejection of Limbaugh shows that some people with real power are willing to stop that process.  In general, the more shrill and hateful the Republican party gets, the fewer people are willing to call themselves Republicans, and this is a heartening development.

Agreed.  The eliminationists are getting louder, but I don’t know if they are gaining significant traction among anyone outside of the 23%ers who still believe that Bush was a good president.

What’s interesting to watch right now is the quiet civil war that appears to be brewing within the Republican Party.  I do think that most of the moderates have been functionally neutered, but I don’t know that all of them have left yet.  For instance, Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin are at odds these days over a Congressional race being held in upstate New York.  The Republican candidate is a pro-choice, pro-stimulus package, moderate leaning Republican named Dede Scozzafava.  A few diehard conservative groups weren’t thrilled about her being the party nominee, so the Conservative Party of NY chose their own candidate, Doug Hoffman, and it’s going to be a three-way race, with Bill Owens representing the Democrats.  That district hasn’t been represented by a Democrat since the Civil War, but it’s very likely that the extreme right-wingers and the moderate-to-centrist right-leaners are gonna split the vote between the Republican and the Conservative, and Owens will likely win.

Gingrich and the RNC has endorsed Scozzafava.  Palin, Bachmann and AM radio have endorsed Hoffman.  And the words on AM radio are getting uglier by the minute.  It isn’t just Obama and Pelosi and Democrats who are the enemy to these people, it’s anybody who doesn’t strictly adhere to their far-right doctrine to a perfect tee… they hate Lindsay Graham, they hate John McCain, they hate Charlie Crist, they hate Arnold Schwarzenegger, and now they are starting to hate, of all freaking people, NEWT GINGRICH!  For being “too liberal”.  The guy who led the impeachment of our 42nd President has become TOO LIBERAL for these sociopaths!!

I think there are some less crazy Republicans who realize that the Palin-Limbaugh faction is a recipe for disaster for their party, but right now, Fox News and AM radio are fully behind the crazies.

Once you step outside the bubble-world of AM radio, Fox News, and the hard-right blogs and print publications, you hear the same message over and over, even among the relatively non-partisan media outlets… these people are fucking crazy.  Hell, even Little Green Footballs is saying that these people are out of their minds.

But they really have so completely insulated themselves inside their own echo-chambers that it’s totally inconceivable to them that they are decidedly in the minority in America… most people just don’t share their views.  And it isn’t just staunch liberals who think they’re nuts.  Most centrists and even moderate conservatives are noticing how kooky these folks are.

Comment #3: DTG in STL  on  10/25  at  02:18 PM

The centrist purge in the GOP, driven by the wingnuts, really fits the Fascist template Neiwert lays out… my copy isn’t handy, but a key element is the idea of national rebirth through a violent purge, a Phoenix-like archetype. They don’t care if they lose NY-23, or a Senate seat in Pennsylvania, or anything else—it will be fault of the moderate cancer in their own midst. And once they’ve dealt with it, they’ll be in position to do the same thing nationwide.

Something else that is feeding this, though… targeting the moderates has been a very useful strategy for getting through these post-Bush years. The country is fucked, and the idea that Bush failed because he wasn’t “conservative” enough, or that he was undermined by GOP moderates, is very useful in trying to rebuild their brand. The problem, of course, is that a lot of the people responsible for those failures continue to be GOP bigwigs.

Remember when Glenn Beck lost his shit screaming at a caller? Besides sounding like a frustrated two-year old, he knocks down her substantive argument (“bailouts are okay when Bush does it, but not when Dems do it???”) with the Pox on Both Their Houses gambit. I don’t know if it is true or not, but he claims to have been against Bush bailouts, too.

I don’t think these people will ever come back to the GOP. The GOP relies too much on business interests that run counter to this wingnut shit. They can be co-opted by business, the same way the fascists were in the 1930s, but I don’t know if they will. (In fact, Obama’s pro-business behavior, which has frustrated many of us so much, may be an intentional hedge to keep business from courting the wingnuts more strongly.)

I think the wingnuts will continue to drift further and further away from political enfranchisement, and that’s dangerous… they have issues, they want to see change, and if they can’t get it at the ballot box, I fear the result will be violence.

Comment #4: humanadverb  on  10/25  at  02:36 PM

“pretty well nailed him down by illustrating that the 1950s was also one of the most socialized periods in history. This is a particularly effective point, because whatever the reality of those days actually was, the Leave It to Beaver narratives of this Golden Age are pretty essential to these people.”

VERY good point
The golden age they revere was a direct result of the New Deal

Comment #5: jefft452  on  10/25  at  03:06 PM

”...key element is the idea of national rebirth through a violent purge, a Phoenix-like archetype. They don’t care if they lose NY-23, or a Senate seat in Pennsylvania, or anything else—it will be fault of the moderate cancer in their own midst. And once they’ve dealt with it, they’ll be in position to do the same thing nationwide.”

“The country is fucked, and the idea that Bush failed because he wasn’t “conservative” enough, or that he was undermined by GOP moderates, is very useful in trying to rebuild their brand.”

The Republican Party has been purging “moderates” since Goldwater’s defeat in ‘64.  There really aren’t any left.  In that vacuum, they’ve had to define “moderate” down to the point that it’s meaningless.  Basically “moderate” is something that is diagnosed after the fact. 

If you failed, you’re a moderate, and it doesn’t matter how close you were toeing the Party line (see Bush).  If you “succeeded”, then you are a good “conservative” no matter how far you strayed (see Reagan).  The actual facts and the policies followed are immaterial. 

The thing that scares me is how much like fascism this is.  Fascism ultimately was not about a rock-solid set of inviolable universal principles, it was about political success, typically backed up by violence or the threat of violence.  If something failed it was because it wasn’t properly National Socialist thinking to begin with.  If it succeeded, naturally it was a great example of National Socialism at work.  The definitions were too slippery, and left gaps that have allowed otherwise nonsensical bullshit like Jonah Goldberg’s epic failure of a book to avoid being instantly rejected by anyone with more than a couple braincells to rub together.

All we need now is a good logo to rally around (maybe they can borrow the Christian cross - something like a white cross against a red circle?), and a ready supply of nice, patriotic, brown shirts for one and all down at Walmart…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  10/25  at  03:10 PM

I don’t know if it is true or not, but he claims to have been against Bush bailouts, too.

I’m sure it will absolutely shock you to learn that he’s lying out his ass. http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200909210037

Comment #7: Steve LaBonne  on  10/25  at  03:17 PM

I’m sorry, I know we are supposed to be better than saying this, but I hate her. And them. Guantanamo is too good for them.
We are better: we don’t go around murdering people who disagree with us. I hate them. I really do.* They’ve destroyed America. I just read that the threats against Obama are up 400%. I’m afraid tbh.

*I also roll my eyes at some of the left who freak out when you say that. OMG! You’re advocating violence111!!!!!111. McEwen of Shakesville tends to do that.

Comment #8: pitbullgirl65  on  10/25  at  03:39 PM

The right wants violence. They dream of violence. They have no idea what real violence is. Neither do I, for that matter, but neither do I have their dreams where they end up on the front pages in the style of a Conan The Barbarian pulp cover, standing on a pile of black bodies, holding a bag of gold and Ann Coulter grasping their sinewed thighs. They are fucking sick.

I H*A*T*E them and want them gone. Ideally peacefully, give them their own home land, ring it with razor wire and sharks with laser beams. But get them out of here, for good. NOW.

Sound cliched? Sorry. I never thought I could be this way, especially regarding a far too large group, but I hate them. A lot.

Comment #9: paleotectonics  on  10/25  at  03:57 PM

The Republican Party has been purging “moderates” since Goldwater’s defeat in ‘64.

What’s especially funny about that is that Goldwater’s very nomination in 1964 was the result of the Republican Party purging their most popular nationally-recognized moderate, Nelson Rockefeller (whose nephew is a fairly decent Democratic Senator in West Virginia today).

The RNC launched a new website a few weeks ago, and they included a bunch of interesting cultural icons to use as examples of famous Republicans of yore.  Obviously, Lincoln tops the list of people they love to claim as one of their own, even though he would most likely have nothing to do with them in 2009.  They don’t claim him as theirs because they actually approve of what he did, but because they know he is widely regarded as perhaps the greatest president in U.S. history, and he was in fact a Republican - nevermind the fact that Republicans were the far more progressive party on racial equality in 1860.

They also claim baseball player Jackie Robinson as one of their own.  And while it is true that Robinson supported and campaigned for Richard Nixon in 1960 (prior to the implementation of the “Southern Strategy”, a huge number of African-Americans were Republicans), he always considered himself an Independent, and didn’t officially belong to either party.

Robinson attended the 1964 Republican National Convention, and he described it as one of the most chilling events of his life… anti-communism was raging, and rightwing populism and bigotry was in the air.  He described the experience of being at that convention by saying that it must have been similar to how the Jews must have felt in the early years of Hitler’s Germany.

Comment #10: DTG in STL  on  10/25  at  04:21 PM

DTG, you notice that Goldwater is missing from the list of GOP “Heroes”.  That’s because he lost in ‘64.  They would happily have included Nixon, but his name still leaves a bad taste in many people’s mouths, and he resigned, and therefore “lost”, despite the fact that Nixon and his minions setup the successful-until-recently Southern Strategy that lead to the election of every Republican POTUS since 1968.  Plus both Nixon and Goldwater are too closely tied to the Vietnam War (representing 100% pure FAIL), because they both made it the center of their runs for the presidency.

Unsurprisingly, there are no Bushes on the list.  Susan Anthony is great, just as long as they don’t try to make us use a coin with her profile on it.  The 20th Century was apparently bad for Republicans of color.

In the end there’s a lot more diversity in their cynical list than there is in the actual membership of the Republican Party.  And the way things are going even the present level of Republican “diversity” will be considered far too much to tolerate.

Today’s Republican Party: Everybody but the white rednecks get out…

Comment #11: MikeEss  on  10/25  at  05:29 PM

I’m not sure that the growing marginalization is a good thing. Sometimes when some group gets smaller and more extreme, and smaller and more extreme, the death spiral focuses more and more on death. When you’re winning electoral victories and crony contracts you don’t think so much about working outside the system.

(That is to say, I think that the growing marginalization of the bugf*ck right is a good thing in a lot of ways, but I worry about a lot of lives being lost, including theirs. )

Comment #12: paul  on  10/25  at  06:07 PM

One reason we’re seeing a “moderate” purge now is that the alliance that helped these guys win has fallen apart. MikeEss points out that Goldwater doesn’t get a mention because he lost. Meanwhile, Dwight “95% top marginal income tax rate” Eisenhower IS on the list. Well… he did win WWII, after all, and two terms.

Eliminationism is about winning. Undesirable allies will be tolerated as long as it serves those ends (“see, even noted sodomite Andrew Sullivan and godless bastard Chris Hitchens agree with us!”), but now that they are losing, the frothing-at-the-mouth transmitters are casting about for a new enemy.

The movement is a shark—it needs forward movement and a target to destroy. When it had a country to work with, it targeted other countries. Now that it can’t even when elections at home, they’re going to throw their weight around in party primaries and who gets invited to speak at CPAC.

Comment #13: humanadverb  on  10/25  at  06:12 PM

I agree with Paul that wingnut marginalization is scary. But it is a good thing.

I’m increasingly convinced that no matter how bad these guys get (and I definitely see mid-90s domestic terrorism in the cards), it won’t be nearly as destructive (especially in body-count) as giving these guys another shot at the controls.

Just looking at how much the pursuit of Olympia Snowe’s vote on HCR could stand to fuck the Democratic Party and health care in general, I think we’re lucky that the GOP showed themselves to be incapable of bipartisanship on those votes early in the administration. Any and all input they give is bad for the country in very, very real ways.

Comment #14: humanadverb  on  10/25  at  06:25 PM

Hell, even Little Green Footballs is saying that these people are out of their minds.

Yep.  And that’s a blog that was so full of eliminationist hate-speech that it spawned a quiz, in which the taker was asked to figure out whether a given quote was a Little Green Footballs or Late German Fascist.  Honestly, the only way to tell a lot of them apart was that Nazis could turn a better phrase.  The level of bile and hatred, the sorts of dehumanizing terms used, the bunker mentality, all the same.

Comment #15: libdevil  on  10/25  at  07:05 PM

I’m sorry, I know we are supposed to be better than saying this, but I hate her. And them. Guantanamo is too good for them.

So you think people who disagree with you should be sent to a prison worse than Guantanamo?

We are better: we don’t go around murdering people who disagree with us. I hate them. I really do.* They’ve destroyed America.

Yes, America has been effectively destroyed by the health care debate. It’s game over. Our cities are gone - our people disseminated - our civilization relegated to a footnote.

I H*A*T*E them and want them gone. Ideally peacefully, give them their own home land, ring it with razor wire and sharks with laser beams. But get them out of here, for good. NOW.

You have to admit - comments like these are amusing on thread about the supposed “eliminationist” sentiment of the right. Who is really “eliminationist” here? The people who disagree with Obama on his massive restructuring of our health care system and unprecedented deficits - or the people who apparently want to lock up and eliminate his critics?

Comment #16: Progressive_Prince  on  10/25  at  07:13 PM

don’t delude yourself amanda, the rejection of rush limbaugh, as a possible minority NFL team owner, was strictly a business decision, not the consequence of a bunch of other rich, white guys suddenly developing a high moral standard for themselves or their product. if they thought he could help them make more money, they’d have happily welcomed him to the club.

Comment #17: cpinva  on  10/25  at  07:28 PM

One day Rush and Beck will instruct their disciples to “Eliminate the cockroaches.”

Comment #18: pablo  on  10/25  at  08:17 PM

don’t delude yourself amanda, the rejection of rush limbaugh, as a possible minority NFL team owner, was strictly a business decision

Exactly.  If it would be bad for their business to have Limbaugh in their little club, what better illustration could there be that the mainstream of America doesn’t like him?

Comment #19: Seraph  on  10/25  at  08:40 PM

Who is really “eliminationist” here?—Progressive_Prince

First, the conversation here is about David Neiwert’s thesis… consider reading it, because it establishes a hefty body of rhetoric far more compelling than a few emotional blog comments. You might also consider a major Vice Presidential candidate who accuses the next president of “palling around with terrorists” versus a White House who accuses his critiques of *gasp* having a political agenda.

Second, individuals who write editorials advocating that dusky-skinned folk who make white people uncomfortable or scared be summarily shot to death on a tarmac meet a burden of proof far higher than many of those imprisoned at Bagram and Gitmo.

And… yes, that kind of lashing-out at political opponents is objectionable and shouldn’t be embraced here.

Until they meet a probable cause standard of offering material support to someone who might gun down an abortion doctor, they shouldn’t be investigated or surveilled by the FBI. And If they do provide material support to someone who (attempts to or actually) guns down an abortion doctor, only then should they be imprisoned.

How much of that have we seen under the reign of Obama I? Oh, not a lot… hmm. [Very first introduction of sarcasm:] Lefties are Hitler.

Comment #20: humanadverb  on  10/25  at  09:05 PM

While the Republican party and its eliminationist base has been repudiated in the past two elections, I do not believe we can all breathe a sigh of relief. This gang feeds off suffering and disaster. So while most economists are declaring the Great Recession has likely ended, they also add the caveat that we will not see a complete recovery of all the jobs lost until 2017 at best. And that is a formula for social unrest.

We need to recall the ugly history of the 1920’s and 30’s, not just here in the US, but globally as well. Economic distress provided fertile ground for the rise of the Fascist party in Italy, the Nazis in Germany and the Bushido military in Japan. In the mid 30’s fear was expressed that such things could happen here, too, what with Father Coughlin and Huey Long.

The whole Tea Party movement is based on a crazy populist sentiment of resentment towards the elites. The longer the Obama administration and Congess delays stiff regulation of banking and finance, the greater the risk that the paranoid element will connect Wall Street with feminists, liberals, the media, and minorities in a bizarre conspiracy to enslave"Real Americans.” Given the violent language being used, we know where this easily could be headed. And they may be able to convince enough others of their ‘truth.’

Let’s not gve each other false assurances of comfort. I would rather not play the role of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with all of you who post on this board, but if those eliminationists return to power, be afraid. Be very afraid.

We need to communicate to Congress and the Obama administration that they need to throw Citi and Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan under the bus and consider reviving the CCC and WPA. In other words, the swamp needs to be drained.

Comment #21: revrick  on  10/25  at  09:33 PM

The Tea Partiers will not be mollified by addressing their “issues.”

Comment #22: Punditus Maximus  on  10/25  at  09:36 PM

individuals who write editorials advocating that dusky-skinned folk who make white people uncomfortable or scared be summarily shot to death on a tarmac meet a burden of proof far higher than many of those imprisoned at Bagram and Gitmo.

This is basically my point. Katerine Kersten never actually advocated summarily shooting anyone to death. Instead, some hysterical liberal read her blog, managed to conjure up this bizarre, paranoid delusion and whipped him/herself into a feverish hatred towards Ms. Kersten.

Unfortunately, this type of idiotic and paranoid behavior is all too typical among the far left and right.

How much of that have we seen under the reign of Obama I? Oh, not a lot… hmm. [Very first introduction of sarcasm:] Lefties are Hitler.

I don’t have any problem with Obama: so far he has addressed his critics with respect and consideration.

It’s far too many of his supporters on the far-left with whom I have problems. Like leftists who seem to have some how convinced themselves that the bulk of the right is essentially evil and out to get them. Oftentimes, see above, their rhetoric gets just as creepy as their right wing brethren.

Comment #23: Progressive_Prince  on  10/25  at  10:31 PM

Yeah, somehow I figured “Progressive_Prince” was, uh, not, even before I read Comment #23.

Thanks for your concern, dude.

Comment #24: Nobody in Particular  on  10/25  at  10:35 PM

Well, I think that Progressive_Prince has proven that both sides are pretty much the same and that the rhetoric of the public leaders of the Republican party is pretty much no different than something he read in the comments of a few blogs somewhere.

Comment #25: Tyro  on  10/25  at  10:35 PM

PM,

No, the Tea Partiers won’t be, but I was thinking of preventing those who might fall into their camp because of their experience of hardship combined with their need to blame someone or something from joining them.

Comment #26: revrick  on  10/25  at  10:39 PM

Progressive Asshole,

I never said she wrote an advocacy of shooting Muslims in the paper. She just said, clearly, that in the heat of the moment, in the “post 9/11 oh shit I wet my pants world”, there must be no limits on law enforcement, and anything they do is excused. Dispute that, fucknuts. Since her particular hatred of choice is for Muslims and brown people, do the math. If she hated abortion, she would be excusing the murder of Dr. Tiller, you know, like OLiely, Malkin, Bachman, and Limbaugh did.

So, who do you dream of killing, you waste of space…

Comment #27: paleotectonics  on  10/25  at  11:00 PM

I never said she wrote an advocacy of shooting Muslims in the paper.

I never said you did. No, you only implied that she desires to kill Muslims - it was her “unspoken” desire you see.

She just said, clearly, that in the heat of the moment, in the “post 9/11 oh shit I wet my pants world”, there must be no limits on law enforcement, and anything they do is excused. Dispute that, fucknuts.

If you honestly read her article and believe that is actually what she argued then you are too far gone to save. Sorry.

Unspoken in her column (and this, I hesitate to use the word, person, is locally famous for muslim hatred, Katherine Kersten, Star-Trib editorial columnist) is her belief (and, I would say, deepest desire) that ‘what needs to be done’ would include dragging them off the plane and shooting them on the tarmac.

By the way it is indigenous to use quotation marks around phrases like “what needs to be done” when you know the author never used that phrase.

Comment #28: Progressive_Prince  on  10/25  at  11:36 PM

In the mid 30’s fear was expressed that such things could happen here, too, what with Father Coughlin and Huey Long.”

Whoa, the Kingfish had a hell of a lot of personal corruption issues, but don’t put him in Father Coughlin territory

He was one of the few southern politions of the 30’s who didn’t get where he was by race baiting

And any money that didn’t go into his own pocket was actually spent improving the lives of the poor and middle classes (yeah, I know faint praise, but still not too many other crooked pols can say that)

Comment #29: jefft452  on  10/25  at  11:43 PM

The concern troll is unfamiliar with human expressions of speech, human idioms, and the human traditions of the human internet.

More evidence is building for my overarching theory that the right-wing seems so disconnected from human reality and empathy because they literally are the “Lizard People” of ballot fame.

Comment #30: Cerberus  on  10/25  at  11:56 PM

Ugh. I wingnut has done it again.  We cant ever talk about right wing extremism and eliminationism without some winger coming around to say “Yeah but the liberals are mean.  Which is the same as Dr. Tiller’s murderer.  See?  One isn’t worse than the other.”  You are so transparent and boring, Fake Progressive Prince.

Go.  Away.  Ass.

Comment #31: Weezie Jefferson  on  10/26  at  12:38 AM

<strike>indigenous</strike> disingenuous

Sorry, couldn’t let that stand.

Comment #32: Rebecca  on  10/26  at  12:40 AM

31-

But see, angry internet users are the same as a documented history of murder, war crimes, and assorted atrocities against minority groups of various types.

Or whatever can stop frank and honest discussion of the exact character of the right-wing.

Next up for PP, how those nooses were mere bad jokes and were not intending to invoke anything.

Comment #33: Cerberus  on  10/26  at  01:29 AM

But see, angry internet users are the same as a documented history of murder, war crimes, and assorted atrocities against minority groups of various types.

Ok, normally I would just ignore a comment as objectively stupid as this but - hell - I have to ask: what exactly is the connection between the teabagger/townhall crowd and those with a “documented history of murder, war crimes and assorted atrocities?”

Don’t get me wrong, extremists on the right have done terrible things but you do get that the overwhelmingly massive bulk of right wingers have never committed murder - much less war crimes, right?

In fact, is there any evidence that any townhaller/teabagger has actually committed a politically motivated murder?

Comment #34: Progressive_Prince  on  10/26  at  01:59 AM

Hey yall, don’t dis Huey Long. Long was pretty racially progressive for his day and got plenty of the Africanian American vote where blacks could vote. Long’s siezure of the oilfields was modeled after the oilfield siezures in Texas after the Spindletop riots. Long’s radical movement forced FDR to implement the New Deal. Jesse Jones made that happen

Whatever happened to the progressive movements in Texas and Louisiana? Louisiana had Long, and Texas had a proud progressive tradition from Spindletop to the Strange Demise of Jim Crow. Where did it all go wrong?

Goldwater himself became became too moderate for the Republicans

And what was up with Japanese internment? They took property and displaced citizens, yet they drafted the children to fight in WWII. The Nisei Batallions were not allowed to fight in the Pacific, but they performed nobly in Europe. Guess they had more “bushido” than I do

Comment #35: Bacopa  on  10/26  at  02:03 AM

don’t delude yourself amanda, the rejection of rush limbaugh, as a possible minority NFL team owner, was strictly a business decision, not the consequence of a bunch of other rich, white guys suddenly developing a high moral standard for themselves or their product. if they thought he could help them make more money, they’d have happily welcomed him to the club.

Absolutely correct, BUUUUUT…. that’s the point.

There was a time when the far-right extremism of Limbaugh types was seen as beneficial to the moneyconservatives to get richer.  Now even they are expressing doubts, because the hardcore socially conservative agenda of the Limbaugh-Palin faction has gotten so extreme that they don’t see it as good business.

They didn’t reject Limbaugh’s crass level of racism so much because they are morally opposed to racism, but because they know that his level of racism is no longer acceptable to a lot of their target consumer demographic.

It’s a good thing not so much because of what it says about NFL owners as it is about what it says about mainstream America.

20-25 years ago, the exact same Rush Limbaugh could have pursued this bid, and he likely would have been let in the club without a lot of fanfare.  But mainstream America has become less willing to put up with his bullshit.  We allow him to stay in his little AM radio cocoon and preach his vitriol to his relatively tiny group of sycophants, but when he wants to involve himself in something that includes a much larger cross-section of America, we say, “hell, no”.  The NFL owners were astute enough to realize that too many of their stakeholders would balk (namely African-American players and non-wingnut fans), and their cost-benefit analysis showed them that Rush would cost them more money than he could ever make for them.

Comment #36: DTG in STL  on  10/26  at  02:47 AM

”They didn’t reject Limbaugh’s crass level of racism so much because they are morally opposed to racism, but because they know that his level of racism is no longer acceptable to a lot of their target consumer demographic.”

I agree, and I think that its important to stress the whole tipping-point issue

Once you get a critical mass of people who don’t tolerate racism/sexism/homophobia or any of the other wingnut shibboleths, you get to the point where the wingnut doesn’t want his friends and relatives know that he is a wingnut

NY-23 is a good test case.  Even very conservative areas outside of the confederacy have a “peak-wingnut” level of about 20%.  Hannity, Levin, and Limbaugh are on NYC radio plugging away for the “true conservative”, Palin has endorsed him and money is pouring in from all over the country – and he is in 3rd place, polling about where W was at the end

Comment #37: jefft452  on  10/26  at  03:26 AM

”Hey yall, don’t dis Huey Long.”

Wasn’t trying to do that, I was going for “praising with faint damns” instead of “damning with faint praise”

Saying that anything that didn’t end up in his own pockets went for the good of the people doesn’t sound like much, but plenty of good-government types have let the people suffer through inaction while they polished their halos

Comment #38: jefft452  on  10/26  at  03:33 AM

I think of the whole thing as being akin to a rabid dog who is getting boxed into a corner.  The rabid dog roaming free is actually more dangerous than the rabid dog who is about to be caged, but doesn’t snarl and howl as loud or aggressively.  For a longtime, that rabid dog was allowed to roam free in American politics, and it was just accepted as the status quo.  Now, while the rabid dog appears more dangerous today because it is acting even more aggresive, in truth what is happening is that America is circling around that rabid dog, and trying to lock it away.

Basically, the true wingnut faction’s rhetoric has gotten far more vitriolic and nasty in the past year, but they are finding themselves with fewer and fewer people on their side everyday… as evidenced by the ABC News/Washington Post poll last week which says that only 20% of Americans are willing to identify themselves as Republicans today.  I don’t think that all of those folks who used to identify themselves as Republicans 1, 2, or 5 years ago have necessarily become staunch liberals or even Democrats since then, but they are unwilling to align themselves with the lunatics who are taking over their former party.

The kooks are winning the fight to control the brand identity of the RNC… but they are losing the much larger battle for the hearts and minds of average Americans, and they are driving away former allies in droves.  Like I said, even Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs is distancing himself from these whackos lately, because they’ve become too crazy for even him.

Comment #39: DTG in STL  on  10/26  at  03:46 AM

We cant ever talk about right wing extremism and eliminationism without some winger coming around to say “Yeah but the liberals are mean.

I hate to be an annoying nudje, but it’s worth remembering that trolls can’t derail a thread if you ignore them.

Comment #40: Steve LaBonne  on  10/26  at  09:18 AM

It’s interesting that the right is capitalizing on American’s inability to remember “history” as a means of pushing forward its agenda (ostensibly to “save America”), when it’s that very lack of ability to remember what happened even a few years ago which will doom us.

For people who don’t understand why unions and labor laws are so important, it pisses me off that I have to give them a rundown of what happened at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory (now a chemistry building at NYU!) because no one is around anymore to remember those women jumping to their deaths.

But pretty much all of the policymakers, even the fresh-faced young neocons, were alive when the Soviet Union collapsed partly due to getting embroiled in Afghanistan. And while I understand that our circumstances for entering that region were different, you would have thought that someone would have remembered what a complete clusterfuck it is to try to go in there.

So I’m thinking it’s not just that we don’t remember “history,” it’s just that we don’t think.

Comment #41: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  09:32 AM

This was a good book. I didn’t like that there was a lot of (what I thought was) unrelated bullshit about how GWB was a bad president. Other than that it was great, I thought. The stuff on Native Americans in particular I thought was really powerful stuff.

also, ha ha lizard people and shit, but that dumb idea comes to us from David Icke, a white supremacist who charmingly uses it as a dogwhistle for ‘jews’ (though he’ll deny it up and down, because the crazier he looks the less non-white supremacists pay attention to him). Seems worth pointing that out in a thread about dehumanizing your political opponents.

Comment #42: Colin  on  10/26  at  09:36 AM

“I hate to be an annoying nudje, but it’s worth remembering that trolls can’t derail a thread if you ignore them. ”

Silence is endorsement.

Comment #43: ginmar  on  10/26  at  09:39 AM

>blockquote>Silence is endorsement.</blockquote>


With respect, that’s exactly the taking-oneself-too-seriously that feeds trolls and helps them derail threads. Believe it or not, the universe little notes nor will long remember what we say here. But whatever.

http://xkcd.com/386/

Comment #44: Steve LaBonne  on  10/26  at  09:46 AM

Oh, bullshit.  Why should the trolls drive people from discussions? And somebody ‘being stupid on the internet’ is not the same as somebody fomenting homicidal hatred. Try again.

Comment #45: ginmar  on  10/26  at  09:52 AM

Why should the trolls drive people from discussions?

One ignores trolls precisely in order to be able to CONTINUE the discussion, not to run from it. Trolls post with the aim of disrupting discussions. But whatever, someone is wrong on the Internet and it’s clearly an emergency. Sigh.

Comment #46: Steve LaBonne  on  10/26  at  10:17 AM

Let’s get back on-topic before the derail gets any worse.

I think that as liberals we are definitely responsible for some of this: ginmar is right—Silence is endorsement to a degree. When someone begins to use eliminationist rhetoric, it’s important to shut that person down: when we have that “uncomfortable moment” where we bite our tongues, we’re letting them know that we won’t stand up to them and they can move that extra step further.

Comment #47: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  10:54 AM

Mighty Ponygirl on #47:

When someone begins to use eliminationist rhetoric, it’s important to shut that person down: when we have that “uncomfortable moment” where we bite our tongues, we’re letting them know that we won’t stand up to them and they can move that extra step further.

Thank you Mighty Ponygirl. I mean, sometimes you have to choose your battles, but overall you’re right. We need to call out eliminationist rhetoric more. I think sometimes left-wing types have some trouble doing this because we don’t like fighting, don’t like conflict, and wish to respect people. But sometimes, we have to get past these instincts and fight. In some situations, it really is a zero-sum or even negative-sum game, and you have no choice but to call out your opponent. This type of politics is something we’re gonna have to learn more I think.

Comment #48: atheist  on  10/26  at  11:19 AM

When someone begins to use eliminationist rhetoric, it’s important to shut that person down

Absolutely. But when somebody like PP is just trying to disrupt a discussion about an important subject with lame “tu quoque"s, not so much. Anyway, I’ve said my piece now, I don’t want to start derailing things myself. Because I too am extremely worried about the increasing media power of the unhinged fascist movement in our midst, and I fear more Oklahoma Cities are in our near future.

Comment #49: Steve LaBonne  on  10/26  at  11:27 AM

It seems possible to engage eliminationists one-on-one and occassionally get some where.  For example I was talking to a staunch conservative while trying to get a health insurance quote over the phone.  While I was giving her information she kept explaining how government was going to “ruin” health care.  At which point I mentioned that overtreatment is a problem and added to costs.  This seemed to fit her world view, and we actually had a decent conversation about the need for some reforms in health-care.
Once conservative realize that liberals are not frothing at the mouth hippies described by Rush Limbaugh they seem to calm down a bit, at least most of them.

Comment #50: John Rove  on  10/26  at  11:59 AM

John:

Some of them calm down, some of them freak out. And some of them become convinced you’re actually a conservative…

Comment #51: paul  on  10/26  at  12:19 PM

Paul:

Good point about them deciding you are a conservative.  I used to work with a ditto-head who used to tell me that the fact that I was working proved I was really a conservative.  They sort of believe anything positive is by definition conservative.

Comment #52: John Rove  on  10/26  at  12:47 PM

I’d turn it around on them. If I’m a conservative because I have a job, then everything I believe… that I don’t mind paying taxes, that I believe in the right to choose, that I feel that universal health care is a right and that it’s sound policy to make sure that undocumented immigrants can get vaccinations and health treatment to prevent a public health crisis—is also a “conservative value” and they should get on board.

Comment #53: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  12:49 PM

When someone begins to use eliminationist rhetoric, it’s important to shut that person down: when we have that “uncomfortable moment” where we bite our tongues, we’re letting them know that we won’t stand up to them and they can move that extra step further.

I completely agree. When some member of the political fringe engages in eliminationist rhetoric, like say… this:

I hate her. And them. Guantanamo is too good for them.

Or:

I H*A*T*E them and want them gone. Ideally peacefully, give them their own home land, ring it with razor wire and sharks with laser beams. But get them out of here, for good. NOW

Then we have an obligation to call out our opponent. Make them accountable for their unhinged extremism.

Silence is complicity.

Comment #54: Progressive_Prince  on  10/26  at  12:55 PM

People get emboldened when others fail to call them out. That’s why I hate this ‘both sides are just as bad’ crap, as if frustrated liberals having a momentary lapse in manners are the same as bloodthirsty conservos wishing openly for murder. You can’t compare Micheal Moore to Ann Coulter: you can’t compare Faux News to CNN.

Comment #55: ginmar  on  10/26  at  01:18 PM

” I used to work with a ditto-head who used to tell me that the fact that I was working proved I was really a conservative”

which must be why Limbaugh’s show is on in the mid-afternoon weekdays, you know, when people with jobs are home and able to listen

Comment #56: jefft452  on  10/26  at  02:09 PM

Whatever, PP. Telling someone off is not the same as eliminationist rhetoric and you know it. But by all means, continue to create false equivalencies.

Comment #57: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  03:16 PM

as if frustrated liberals having a momentary lapse in manners are the same as bloodthirsty conservos wishing openly for murder

Here here! Funny how conservatives forget the U.U. church shootings, the Holocost (sp?) shootings, the terrorizing and murder of prochoicer health workers…....

Comment #58: pitbullgirl65  on  10/26  at  03:33 PM

Sounds like a Fafblog post:  “Eliminationism is bad!  We must therefore eliminate it!”

I look forward to reading the book at some point in the future.  I enjoyed Neiwert’s Eliminationism in America essays on Orcinus; he may be a journalist by profession but he makes a pretty good historian.

There may indeed be more violence in our future.  That’s unfortunate, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean we should let up in our promotion of liberal/progressive values.  That’s what we stand for, isn’t it?  Should we shrink from standing up for ourselves because a bunch of lunatics with bombs and guns threaten mayhem?

Comment #59: liberalrob  on  10/26  at  03:55 PM

Whatever, PP. Telling someone off is not the same as eliminationist rhetoric and you know it. But by all means, continue to create false equivalencies.

I do know it. That’s why I never made an equivalency between “telling someone off” and eliminationist rhetoric.

Instead I pointed to clearly eliminationist rhetoric, i.e:

I H*A*T*E them and want them gone. Ideally peacefully, give them their own home land, ring it with razor wire and sharks with laser beams. But get them out of here, for good. NOW

And called it what it is: eliminationist rhetoric.

Comment #60: Progressive_Prince  on  10/26  at  04:22 PM

Whatever, yo. Keep fucking that chicken.

Comment #61: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  05:33 PM

Whatever, yo. Keep fucking that chicken.

I fucking LOVE that viral video.  Jut had to go watch it on the YouTubes again.

Comment #62: DTG in STL  on  10/26  at  05:45 PM

From #60:

Instead I pointed to clearly eliminationist rhetoric, i.e:

I H*A*T*E them and want them gone. Ideally peacefully, give them their own home land, ring it with razor wire and sharks with laser beams. But get them out of here, for good. NOW

And called it what it is: eliminationist rhetoric.

I wonder if it has to do with the authoritarian difficulty in distinguishing between words and actions. “Progressive_Prince” seems to think that expressing anger or hatred toward people is the same thing as shooting up a church.

Either that, or maybe Progressive_Prince is just a bullshit artist… who knows.

Comment #63: atheist  on  10/27  at  10:15 AM
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