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Next entry: Friday Genius Ten “I Know You Are, But What Am I?” Edition Previous entry: We tried to save the lede, but it was underinsured and couldn’t afford the treatment

Bamboo Review: Unscientific America

Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens our Future by Chris Mooney and Sheril Kirshenbaum has been burning up the science blogging world, but I don’t think it’s gotten as much attention in the regular political blogosphere, so while a lot of what I have to say about it is redundant, I think it’s still useful because we reach a slightly different audience here than the science and skepticism blogs do.  I was excited to read it, because I’m generally a fan of Mooney’s science reporting, but unfortunately, I found that I shared many of the objections to this book laid out in this review by Jason Rosenhouse.

But I’ll start with praising what I liked about the book.  I’m glad that Mooney and Kirshenbaum opted out of reiterating the same debunkings of all the bad science and anti-science woo out there, from anti-vaccination crap to global warming denialism to creationism.  They wanted to move onto the next step, which is looking at what can be done about the routine low opinion that Americans have of science, and their willingness to just wave off scientific information that offends their sensibilities, no matter how compelling the evidence.  It’s a laudable goal, and a lot of what they talk about makes sense to me.  I disagree slightly with Rosenhouse’s dismissal of anti-intellectualism as a major force for anti-science attitudes.  The American hostility to smarty-pantsness is exactly what’s tapped by global warming denialists, creationists, and anti-vaxxers, and without it, their arguments wouldn’t get much of an audience.  So I think Mooney and Kirshenbaum’s arguments about how science needs better P.R. make perfect sense.  And they correctly identify many of the obstacles to this goal, but unfortunately, their analysis of other obstacles is just off.

Let’s start with the most incendiary one—-their lambasting of New Atheism.  I am so sick of the argument that assumes religious people can state their beliefs as forcefully as they like and threaten non-believers with hell, but atheists have to approach the topic on our tip toes.  Mooney and Kirshenbaum repeatedly state that there’s no conflict between religion and science as if it’s a fact, when at best that’s a point of strong disagreement.  When people like PZ Myers—-who they clearly don’t like—-Richard Dawkins, or even myself say that we believe that religion and science are in conflict, we’re not speaking out of our asses.  We have a legitimate argument.  You may disagree, and I can see your point of view if you do, but I have a legitimate argument, too.  It’s clearly a complicated issue.  In general, I had trouble understanding Mooney and Kirshenbaum’s point here.  At times, they just seemed to dislike the tactics that some atheists use.  At other times, they were wary of atheists who use their background and understanding of science to argue, albeit forcefully, that their understanding of science has led them to conclude there cannot be a god.  At one point, Dawkins is chided for making philosophical arguments based in his extensive scientific background.  But to my mind, that’s why philosophy, unlike religion, is a legitimate form of discourse to create deeper understanding of the world—-because it’s about rooting your arguments in the real world, often using real knowledge, instead of making up supernatural explanations.  They really hated the fact that PZ Myers put a nail through a communion wafer and threw it in the trash, but to my mind, committing bold acts of heresy and showing that you didn’t get struck down by god is a pretty powerful and legitimate argument.

Mooney and Kirshenbaum want atheists to be more respectful of people’s religious beliefs….sort of.  And there’s a real incoherence in the plea for toleration of “religious moderates”.  Here’s why: Many a Bible-thumping fundamentalist Protestant would see PZ’s stunt and not be offended (except by his atheism), because they agree with PZ that the Catholic belief in transubstantiation is offensive and weird.  They’d also be supportive of him tossing the Koran and The God Delusion in the trash.  But that he promotes the theory of evolution is beyond offensive to them.


And that’s the problem.  Mooney and Kirshenbaum want PZ to be respectful of Catholic belief in magic, but evangelical beliefs in magic don’t deserve the same respect.  But the latter group is within their rights to call foul, if that’s the case.  How is it that some forms of religious bullshit have to be regarded with respect, and we’re not to argue forcefully against them, but others aren’t?  Mooney and Kirshenbaum argue that scientists will have more respect with the citizenry if the public doesn’t have to worry that science will overturn their cherished religious beliefs, but unfortunately, it often does.  They praise religions that have amended their beliefs due to scientific evidence against them, but to my mind that’s only another reason that unscientific religious beliefs need to be challenged, because history shows that’s the only way religion changes.  Sure, the Catholic Church accepts evolution, but only because they didn’t want another historical humiliation like that they received after denying the Earth orbits the sun, and punishing Galileo for it. 

I think highly in general of Stephen Jay Gould, who they single out for praise in this department, but I honestly felt that his sympathetic writing about religious believers always smacked of condescension.  At least when Richard Dawkins calls believers weak-minded, you know he’s not fucking around.  They also praise Carl Sagan for being generous to religious believers, but my experience is that Sagan was the popularizer of an argument that actually makes believers the most angry—-the dragon in the garage argument.  The ugly truth is that if we want science to be more popular, it’s in our best interests to promote atheism and agnosticism, because, as Mooney and Kirshenbaum note, most scientists (and presumably avid fans and promoters of it) come from secular backgrounds.  So let’s make more of those. 

Rosenhouse brought up what I think is the most important objection to Mooney and Kirshenbaum’s reasoning, which is that the public isn’t just hostile to science in general, so much as they’re willing to object to scientifically sound ideas if they are inconvenient or offensive to their beliefs.  Global warming is denied because people love their cars, evolution is denied because fundies have giant egos, vaccinations are denied because it’s an easy way to lash out against corporate America, and contraception is denied because of hostility to sex and women’s liberation.  And the kow-towing American belief that faith is so precious that it can’t be criticized in public feeds into the problem.  Americans scrape for faith, and they start to believe that you can believe whatever you damn well please, and people who insist that reality is important are just being joy-killers.  It’s understandable that a public that believes they have a right not to have their beliefs in magic and angels criticized will move right into using their “it’s my belief, dammit, so STFU” mentality into covering for the belief that there’s no such thing as global warming or evolution.

One last thing I want to say about this book is about how it talks up the problem of scientists and communications.  Mooney and Kirshenbaum are big on the idea that more scientists should aspire to be Carl Sagan, and really reach out with TV and writing to a larger audience.  And that’s all well and good—-we should have hundreds of Sagans around—-but I think they’re just a little too quick to assume that the main reason we don’t is that scientists don’t want to do that or don’t have enough training.  That, to my mind, downplays how much writing and communicating are talents, and not as easy as they seem.  To be good at science, speaking, and writing is to have a trifecta of talents that will probably be rare in most people.  You can take scientists and make them a little better at communicating with some training, but writing is a real skill that takes a lot of time and not just a little talent.  It’s not just a matter of caring.  Scientists can care until they’re blue in the face, but just because you’re really brilliant in the lab doesn’t mean that you’re going to be great at the keyboard, and of course vice versa.  (But that wasn’t in question.)  That’s why I’m more than a little anxious to see the attacks on Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers, two scientists who do in fact have writing skills and a great ability to communicate with the public.  I want more science popularizers, just like Mooney and Kirshenbaum do, and the zeitgeist seems to indicate that outspoken atheist scientists are the ones who will be handed the megaphone to speak about science.  Which makes sense—-religion is “hot” right now, which is (like I said) a major reason that woo in general is hot right now, and so of course there’s a growing audience of people who are fucking sick of it and interested in becoming atheists.  Which in turn gives us another opportunity to promote science.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:09 PM • (275) Comments

Even if they are good communicators, scientists and reality based people wouldn’t be invited to write for the Corporate Media. Billy Crystal and Ross Douchehat are what corporate media is hiring right now.

Comment #1: lostmypassword  on  07/30  at  08:04 PM

Billy Crystal?

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  08:13 PM

Maybe Bill Kristol?

Comment #3: Seebach  on  07/30  at  08:15 PM

Mainstream Christians are about as likely to accept evolution and global warming as their European counterparts. About the only way to improve acceptance of science in the U.S. is to reduce the number of evangelicals or to increase the number of atheists.

Comment #4: bad Jim  on  07/30  at  08:19 PM

Let’s start with the most incendiary one—-their lambasting of New Atheism.  I am so sick of the argument that assumes religious people can state their beliefs as forcefully as they like and threaten non-believers with hell, but atheists have to approach the topic on our tip toes.

I’ve come across a couple of self-identified atheists who read my website and fired off e-mails that boiled down to, “There’s no god, you superstitious moron. Science has all but proven that. How about joining us in the 21st Century?” 

My first inclination is the right one: telling them to fuck off and go read somewhere else if they don’t like my writing – which is essentially the same thing I think atheists should tell proselytizers who merely try to frighten them into capitulation through tales of eternal torture in hell.

Otherwise, however, I think people should simply treat each other with respect. That, at least, is the ideal – even if I don’t always live up to it.

PZ knew people would be genuinely upset by his cookie stunt, but he did it and he bragged about it and he received kudos for it – not because he made some unique, ground-breaking point but simply because pissing people off is the new “brave.”

They really hated the fact that PZ Myers put a nail through a communion wafer and threw it in the trash, but to my mind, committing bold acts of heresy and showing that you didn’t get struck down by god is a pretty powerful and legitimate argument.

Not really. There have been plenty or past arguments that ‘God won’t harm you for blasphemy nor help you in a time of need.’ (I hear, for example, that all the participants in YouTube’s “Blasphemy Challenge” are still alive and well.) PZ’s act was shock theater disguised as a point. 

How is it that some forms of religious bullshit have to be regarded with respect, and we’re not to argue forcefully against them, but others aren’t?

Argument is a good thing…but some people who set out to “debate” the rational basis of religious belief aren’t really interested in a two-way conversation about it. They show up where theists congregate and preach the New Atheism – an asymmetrical bit of chest-beating where the biggest iconoclast always “wins.”

It’s not about a lack of respect for religion, then, but rather for the people themselves.

Comment #5: Nil  on  07/30  at  08:25 PM

Devil’s advocate:
“but some people who set out to “debate” the rational basis of religious belief aren’t really interested in a two-way conversation about it.”

This. this this this. It happens on virtually every issue, and it’s incredibly irritating to me as someone who does actually try to debate such issues with the goal of *convincing someone*. It’s hard enough to find people I disagree with who are willing to engage in intellectually honest debate without having to hush the trolls trolling in favor of my position. IME, religious and conservatives are more guilty of grandstanding to avoid discussion (see: The O’Reilly Factor), but it happens on the left as well.

If PZ Myers wants to stab a cracker, rock on. I don’t think ‘respecting people’ means that people get unlimited veto power on you doing something innocent in your home. But, if he kept on showing up on comment threads where actual discussion was happening with comments like ‘Shorter X: I’m an idiot.’, then I would mind.

Comment #6: jalmondale  on  07/30  at  08:41 PM

Devil’s Advocate-
Actually, his “stunt” was about how viciously the Catholic Church had attacked a student who had made a mistake for a perceived slight against the religion and as an attempt to remind the Catholic Church and catholics in general that their dogma shouldn’t trump humanity or other people’s rights to live unmolested.

Given how “catholic outrage” was responsible for Amanda’s termination on the Edward’s campaign and how “catholic outrage” was practically a cottage industry for awhile in trying to shut down much of the arts and most feminist and humanitarian critics of things like the Church’s massive rape and abuse scandals, it was a well-earned stunt on their parts.

And that’s sort of the point, that we view religion as needing more respect than that we give each other, that someone’s beliefs and the coddling thereof matter more than their basic humanity or the basic humanity of non-believers.

Comment #7: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  08:50 PM

PZ Myers threw a communion wafer in the trash—along with a Quran and a copy of The God Delusion—in response to the brouhaha over Webster Cook pocketing a Eucharist instead of eating it.  For that act, Cook was assaulted, sent death threats, impeached from a position in student government, and pilloried by his community and the conservative media.

The point was solidarity for a guy who received disproportionate punishment for transgressing a religious custom.  (Like a woman wearing trousers in the Sudan.)  Would I have done what Myers did?  Probably not, since I was raised Catholic and some behaviors are still wired in.

On the other hand, atheist crimes of “being rude”, “disrespecting religion”, and even “mistreating the body and blood of Jesus Christ” pale in comparison with, say, killing doctors who perform abortions.

Comment #8: fmitchell  on  07/30  at  08:52 PM

On the student, the Church members attacked and assaulted him, demanded a public apology and attempted even after the apology to get him expelled from his secular school. They also sent him a regular supply of death threats that were specific enough to have him frightened to go out too often in public.

PZ Myers when he announced the “stunt” received unending death threats for months on end (I think he is still to this day receiving at least 20 per day on average), attempts to have him fired from his university, attempts to eliminate his blog from his web host, and oh yeah, actual threats on his life in the form of some poisoned communion wafers mixed in with the other wafers mailed to him in the hopes of killing him during the stunt.

So perspective.

Comment #9: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  08:55 PM

The big problem is that evangelicals aren’t really American, either.  They want theocracy.

If we all understood the First Amendment and respected each other’s right to believe or not in any religion or none, that would be better.  The problem is evangelicals refuse to respect any one else’s rights as citizens in addition to refusing to learn anything at all about how the world really works.

It would be fine and dandy if they would also agree to forgo all the advances science has made.  The Amish think science moves too fast for humans to understand or keep up with morally.  So they don’t drive and don’t wear buttons and refuse other modern ‘niceties’ in general (though they will have telephones—outside, maybe in a barn—in order to call for help if necessary.)  They aren’t stupid.  They don’t reject science as false or as Satan; they just choose how much they are willing to use.

Evangelicals want cell phones and hospitals with MRIs and chemotherapy and HDTV and satellite, but they also want to damn the people who invented them.

I really wish they would go Galt.

Comment #10: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/30  at  08:58 PM

Religion and science do not conflict.  Without religion, we would not have science, literally.  Both religion and science suffer from bad theology and general narcissic anti-intellectualism.  Believing that religion and science conflicts is pretty dangerous, and I say that as an athiest (but one who knows his religeos and scientific history).

Comment #11: shah8  on  07/30  at  09:00 PM

Mooney and Kirshenbaum are big on the idea that more scientists should aspire to be Carl Sagan,

I find it interesting that they position Carl Sagan against the “bad atheists”. Back when Cosmos came out, I remember my dad complaining about how obnoxiously atheistic Sagan was. (Of course, that could mean “Sagan wouldn’t lie about being an atheist” or “Sagan was unapologetic about being an atheist.”)

Comment #12: Dorothy  on  07/30  at  09:04 PM

@ Cerberus: Actually, his “stunt” was about how viciously the Catholic Church had attacked a student who had made a mistake for a perceived slight against the religion and as an attempt to remind the Catholic Church and catholics in general that their dogma shouldn’t trump humanity or other people’s rights to live unmolested.

Ohhh. I should have rechecked that before slamming PZ (and yeah, I do remember all that crap Amanda had to face during the fiasco drummed up almost exclusively by that poisonous busy-body, Bill Donohue). (Sorry, PZ; I talked when I should have been researching.)

I think the rest of my point is still valid, though.

And that’s sort of the point, that we view religion as needing more respect than that we give each other, that someone’s beliefs and the coddling thereof matter more than their basic humanity or the basic humanity of non-believers.

On this…I absolutely, 100% agree with you.

@ Fmitchell: On the other hand, atheist crimes of “being rude”, “disrespecting religion”, and even “mistreating the body and blood of Jesus Christ” pale in comparison with, say, killing doctors who perform abortions.

I agree, obviously - except the former is in no way an antidote to the latter. There are a lot of moderates who know killing people - abortion providers, UU parishioners and so on - is wrong. When someone approaches a moderate to lay these crimes at his feet, and offers atheism as the alternative to religious barbarism, the person making that argument is totally ignoring personal responsibility as well as leaving himself open to the same dumb argument (e.g., that Stalin was an atheist LOLZER!1!)

Comment #13: Nil  on  07/30  at  09:05 PM

shah-
I believe ancient history contradicts that. Not to undermine the fine contributions of exceedingly religious scientists such as Mendel, but just because religion had a monopoly on education and literacy didn’t actually make it requisite for science to occur. Secular bastards in Greece were inventing fire that burned underwater long before the Church required their schools and libraries and universities for any access to previously acquired knowledge.

I don’t think the conflict is necessary. Religion should be perfectly happy to update itself to survive each new scientific discovery, but saying that religion is somehow necessary to science is kinda unsupported by experience and history.

Comment #14: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  09:06 PM

I’ve read the Pluto chapter that they put online, and it’s about the stupidest fucking thing I’ve read in my whole life. I have zero desire to waste time on the rest. Mooney has gone totally off the rails since the Republican War book.

Comment #15: Steve LaBonne  on  07/30  at  09:07 PM

Religion and science do not conflict.  Without religion, we would not have science, literally. 

Your second sentence isn’t a logical extension of your first. The claims most religions make about the universe certainly do conflict with science’s claims. It’s an accident of history that religious institutions were the ones with the money and power to fund scientific research, and that many scientists were religious because they didn’t have enough information not to be, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what science or any particular religion has to say about the universe.

Believing that religion and science conflicts is pretty dangerous, and I say that as an athiest (but one who knows his religeos and scientific history).

It might be politically dangerous in that it turns a lot of people off, but it’s not intellectually dangerous, or an unsound argument.

Comment #16: junk science  on  07/30  at  09:11 PM

Cerebus, I’m pretty sure ancient history doesn’t support your point.  Yes, you can point to Hypatia being killed and dragged by a christian mob, but that mob was what it was, just a mob.  Full of violent people.  I can point to astronomy, music, mathematics, chemistry as all having been birthed as an aid to theology.  Many religions have incorporated some sciency things into their procedures and rituals.

The kind of thing that gave birth to scientific racism or Lysenkoism are precisely the same demons that afflict religeons.

Comment #17: shah8  on  07/30  at  09:14 PM

It might be politically dangerous in that it turns a lot of people off, but it’s not intellectually dangerous, or an unsound argument.

I dont think science and religion must necessarily conflict, though: one is about the business of figuring out how things work, and the other is concerned with why.

Atheists might claim that there is no ultimate reason for Everything, whereas religious folk swill claim there is an objective reason that can be known. Neither of those positions has anything to do with science.

Comment #18: Nil  on  07/30  at  09:15 PM

For shah8: http://tinyurl.com/ksrjj4 The Closing of the Western Mind by Charles Freeman- read it.

And that’s all I’ll say about that- these discussions are always unpleasant and unproductive.

Comment #19: Steve LaBonne  on  07/30  at  09:24 PM

shah- Yes, early science and even modern science is just as prone to the sexisms and racisms of their times, as science can only be as good as the willingness of the people who advance it. Humans are humans and all that.

I do believe in my example, I was referring to a point much further back than the relatively recent creation of Christianity and certainly that cult being thrust to a position of power in which they could assassinate Hypatia. Ancient Greece, specifically, by which I mean Pre-Christian Hellenic Greece had remarkably secular scientific universities and disciplines that were driven by what we see as very modern principles of reality and accuracy.

Hippocrates’ journals, Pythagoras’ university, Socrates’ seminars which got him killed for blasphemy, and the shipyard engineers all were remarkably secular endeavors and had little control by the temples of the time.

I’m not trying to be rude or dismissive, but there is little support for the notion that science requires or required religion. This says nothing of the ability of science to benefit religion or for religious men and women to be great and caring scientists.

Comment #20: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  09:25 PM

OK, I’ll say one more thing- science needs religion the way a fish needs a bicycle.

Comment #21: Steve LaBonne  on  07/30  at  09:27 PM

I think there is quite a bit of confusion between an abusive reading of religion, such as biblical inerrancy, 5600 years BC, or the number of angels that dance on a pin, compared to religious activity in an intellectually healthy climate.  Daoism isn’t going to conflict very much with science, and neither is Budhism or Jainism.  While it’s true that science can perhaps lead you not to believe in reincarnation, it isn’t always an actual challenge to many strains of Budghist thought.

Much of the problems that religion poses is a direct consequence of the fact that it *must* serve the establishment in order to exist.  Science also must do the same thing.  Politics tends to destroy intellectual rigor.

Comment #22: shah8  on  07/30  at  09:29 PM

Steve LaBonne, Charles Freeman is agreeing with me.

Comment #23: shah8  on  07/30  at  09:32 PM

Devil’s Advocate-
That’s not an entirely accurate reflection for the atheist position. A more honest encapsulation may be that atheists believe that the why is knowable, but unflattering, that there is little special to us in comparison to every other existing object and creature. That the ultimate reason is pedestrian and boring, but that the meaning we derive from that need not be. And more importantly, that our key to making the most of what we have and what we are is not wasting our times wishing our ultimate reason was awesomer, but instead doing right by each other to make it awesome.

Also there do tend to be conflicts. Science is a data-collection method, striving to fill in all gaps with new knowledge. Religion often finds itself drawn and staking claims in those self-same gaps. It’s not required that the conflict be bloody, but the very nature of the pursuits will cause some bloody noses and thrown elbows. It’s not as simple as how and why, sadly.

Comment #24: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  09:33 PM

Steve LaBonne, Charles Freeman is agreeing with me.

Umm, no, far from it. But have a nice day.

Comment #25: Steve LaBonne  on  07/30  at  09:36 PM

I haven’t read the book, so I don’t know if they cover this point:  I think one of the major problems that science has with the public is the perception that you can get a study that proves anything and the next week another study comes out saying the exact opposite, so it’s all just bullshit.

There’s also some weird belief that people go into science or choose atheism to become famous and make money and get attention.

Comment #26: oldfeminist  on  07/30  at  09:37 PM

shah-
Not sure about Politics destroying intellectual rigor. Certainly inflexible politics are and certainly status-quo supporting and establishmentarian politics are, but as a simple should, I would argue any politics worth its damn responds only to that which is true as can be seen in academic endeavors. Certainly its a mark of pride for most liberals that their viewpoints strive to mirror the facts, rather than trying to spend most of their time attempting to make the facts fit the viewpoint.

Comment #27: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  09:38 PM

No, seriously, read the Amazon link that you gave me!  He gives a lengthy addedum in the reviews section.  Compare it with the comment I made on 8:29.  Not to mention that the other major reviews are just a nuanced. 

If you cannot even be bothered to understand your own evidence or the arguments of your opponents, no wonder you have such a poor time of it!  Put it like this.  I *agree* with Charles Freeman.  I’m saying that *you* do not actually agree with Charles Freeman.

Comment #28: shah8  on  07/30  at  09:40 PM

oldfeminist-
Yeah, science reporting is an unfortunate and infuriating aspect to the whole clusterfuck. The newspapers often love to give well-supported theories with decades of research behind them and a near-consensus in the scientific community equal standing with some establishmentarian hack with no little to no academic certification and little support in the field in order to sell desired narratives.

Though it probably doesn’t help that the science world just isn’t as exciting in the moment-to-moment sense as most people imagine it being due to science-fiction movies from the 60s. One study is rarely enough to really shift a paradigm and it often takes years of gradual buildup for the giant boom that makes a great headline. A lot of it is more like “more and more longevity-related genes mapped or found” than “anti-aging drug makes you young forever and gives you enormous breasts”.

Comment #29: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  09:43 PM

which is that the public isn’t just hostile to science in general, so much as they’re willing to object to scientifically sound ideas if they are inconvenient or offensive to their beliefs.

To me, this counts as hostility to science in general (and religion in general, for that matter) because one of the big things about scientific facts is that how happy you are about them being true has exactly zero relevance to how true they are. People are perfectly willing to believe scientific facts that aren’t inconvenient for them, but many of them are just as willing, in my experience, to believe non-facts that aren’t inconvenient or are actively convenient. That’s why, for example, certain studies live forever regardless of how thoroughly they’ve been superseded or debunked.

And perhaps anti-intellectualism isn’t even the right word for what makes scientific illiteracy so prevalent. I think it’s more of the Rove Lite attitude toward the whole world: that the facts are determined by who has the most power in a particular situation.

Comment #30: paul  on  07/30  at  09:47 PM

I’ve read THE WHOLE BOOK. Have you? Jeez. No, he most certainly does NOT argue for anything of the following quote from you:

Religion and science do not conflict.  Without religion, we would not have science, literally.  Both religion and science suffer from bad theology and general narcissic anti-intellectualism.  Believing that religion and science conflicts is pretty dangerous, and I say that as an athiest (but one who knows his religeos and scientific history).

I assume you’re referring to the introductory remarks about Aquinas. Suffice it to say, they do not signify what you think they do. Freeman quite specifically contrasts, to put it crudely, Good Thomas (qua philosopher, the aspect that put his works in very bad ecclesiastical odor for some time after their writing) with Bad Thomas (qua theologian). Thomas was constructive only in the former, essentially secular aspect of his work.

As I said, have a nice day.

Comment #31: Steve LaBonne  on  07/30  at  09:49 PM

Atheists might claim that there is no ultimate reason for Everything, whereas religious folk swill claim there is an objective reason that can be known. Neither of those positions has anything to do with science.

I don’t claim there’s no ultimate reason for everything. I have no idea if there is or not, and neither does anyone else. I don’t think anyone has ever satisfactorily explained what that even means. I do believe that if we ever find anything like an ultimate reason, it won’t be through religion, which has offered little help in revealing anything else about the objective reality of the universe. I also think the god explanation is one of the most unlikely possible ones, and it’s unfortunate that most religious people have their hearts so set on a god explanation that they’re unlikely to accept any other.

Comment #32: junk science  on  07/30  at  09:57 PM

Well, I wasn’t really talking about Aquinas.

But you know, hey, I haven’t read the book.  I have read quite a bit of history—of both science and of religion, and I’ve certainly have read other books about closing and openings of minds.

Both science and religion functions are determined through a process of political patronage.  Great thought occurs in politically open eras—for both science and religion.  Politically closed eras affects *both* science and religion, and we should not mistake conflicts between science an religion as something intrinsic so much as they are sock-puppets for other causes.

Comment #33: shah8  on  07/30  at  10:00 PM

Argument is a good thing…but some people who set out to “debate” the rational basis of religious belief aren’t really interested in a two-way conversation about it.

I disagree strongly.  The reason that there’s no two-way conversation possible isn’t because of meanie atheists.  It’s because one side is arguing from a rationalist viewpoint, and the other is arguing that they want to believe in magic.  So it’s always going to devolve into trying to figure out how much magic someone should get to believe in before they feel stupid about it.  But there can’t be a real discussion, because it’s about irrationality vs. rationality, and evidence vs. wishful thinking.  And the only question left is what amount of wishful thinking should atheists refrain from making fun of out of “respect” for faith?

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  10:11 PM

PZ Meyers is an amazing asshole. This has nothing to do with his opinions, it’s just a fact about his personality. That does not equal an ability to communicate with the public, it equals an ability to reach the people that already agree with you.

Comment #35: stormhit  on  07/30  at  10:13 PM

And yes, the Pluto thing blew my mind.  That large sectors of the public threw a fit about Pluto only tells you that large sectors of the public are megawatt assholes, and real ones, not the assholes who get called that because they hurt the fee-fees of the No Contraception ‘s Ungodly set.  Who seriously gives a shit if Pluto is a planet?

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  10:27 PM

It’s because one side is arguing from a rationalist viewpoint, and the other is arguing that they want to believe in magic.

Spoken like a true intolerant atheist bigot. Who are you to decide someone’s sacred and untouchable beliefs are “magic”? You’re obligated to pretend they’re as worthy of consideration as actual facts, if not more so. Believing in gods isn’t the same as believing in magic, because it isn’t, so there.

Comment #37: junk science  on  07/30  at  10:28 PM

Most honest religious practictioners will not debate with you about the “rationality” of belief.  That *is* inherently contradictory.  If you actually are in some contest like that, you really shouldn’t be surprised if it devolves because either someone (or both) is an idiot, or someone (or both) aren’t arguing in good faith.

Wishful and magical thinking is part and parcel of bad scientific/philosophical thinking as well.

I also want to make this clear as well, we are amazingly religiously illiterate as well.  Mathematically illiterate and hoo boy, how ‘bout just plain old illiterate?

Comment #38: shah8  on  07/30  at  10:29 PM

“Charles Freeman is agreeing with me.”

Reallly, not. You should read him. He mockavates you.

Science and religion are surely in conflict. Same as magic and science. I think you aren’t as widely read as you believe yourslef to be.

DN

Comment #39: Don N  on  07/30  at  10:34 PM

Perhaps I am biased due to my own religious beliefs, but I fail to see how the New Atheism is any different than Intelligent Design: both have absolute faith that their beliefs are “scientific” and that their theistic commitments (or antagonism to said commitments) are provable via science.

Perhaps the most important aspect of scientific literacy is understanding what it means to understand something scientifically—which includes an understanding of what kinds of knowledge are scientific and what kinds are not.  Metaphysical speculation is, by definition, beyond physical understanding.

Now one can argue that there is nothing beyond physics, but that is not an argument that can be made within the system itself.  Obviously certain beliefs are scientifically wrong (e.g. Creationism), but the strength of science is that it applies in a specific way that precludes evaluating all beliefs.  If science could, then it would be like math—and be a religion that could prove it’s a religion (e.g. Goedel’s famous theorem).

BTW—there are, as pointed out above, many moderate religious folk.  It isn’t a case of “you either believe in science or in fundamentalism”.  Indeed, some pretty “magical thinking” theists are also down with science (many Catholics for instance, hence the distinction from evangelicals, although some evangelicals are also ok with evolution!).

Also, I don’t think the ancient Greeks were all that secular.  Maybe de facto they didn’t believe in their mythology (as many so-called Christians don’t actually follow the teachings of Jesus or really pay more than lip service to their theological commitments, which, btw, is exactly against what Jesus railed!), but in the ancient world, to reject the gods was to reject the state, reject society, etc.  Indeed, we Jews in those days were considered “atheists” because we didn’t accept the pagan gods.  In those days, to be a Greek or to be whatever was to accept the gods of your ethnos.  And if your country was conquered, you just added the new gods to your pantheon in order to assimilate to your new masters.  I guess I could drift off-topic here and talk about the Deuteronomist, etc. ...

Comment #40: DAS  on  07/30  at  10:37 PM

DAS, the difference is the following:

Atheists see no evidence of any “supernatural” forces at work in the universe and thus conclude that there are none*

IDiots insist that there must be “supernatural” forces at work because shutup that’s why

*unless new evidence comes in providing a possible example, as every prominent atheist says

Comment #41: themann1086  on  07/30  at  10:41 PM

The only way I’ve found to have conversations with religious people about my lack of belief and have them go moderately well is to argue that it might just be gut thing that I simply do not have and to pretend to would cheapen the whole business.  It is one of those points that is true but not the whole truth. 

I think most people chose myth based world views over a science based one because the number one rule of living in reality is understanding that you don’t know jack and you may never really for sure.  I don’t think some people can handle that.

Comment #42: semi_factual  on  07/30  at  10:42 PM

Secular bastards in Greece were inventing fire that burned underwater long before the Church required their schools and libraries and universities for any access to previously acquired knowledge.

If you’re referring to “Greek Fire”, that was a Byzantine-era creation, invented well after Christianity had become the faith of the land.

Comment #43: Tyro  on  07/30  at  10:49 PM

So science and religion are in conflict. 

hmm, I wonder however those super schmart scientists and philosophers of yor (and even today) reconciled the “contradictions” of science and religion.  I am given to percieve that they mostly did not see a contraction between their science and their religion.  They most be so fabulously hypocritical!  Or fabulously deluded!  Isaac Newton and Rene Descartes SHAME ON YOU!  WE SHAN’T EVER READ YOU AGAIN!

/me snorts

Allayall are completely historically illiterate. 

and…mockavate?  Hey I am a fan of neologism, but what does that mean besides mocking?  I think you are going to have to do better than that to show me that Charles Freeman doesn’t agree with me.

Comment #44: shah8  on  07/30  at  10:51 PM

What, stormhit, have you ever heard PZ speak, let alone met him and spoken with him? He’s not an asshole. He’s actually a really nice guy. He simply refuses to hold back on his opinions about religion out of a sense of “respect” that it does not deserve. For some reason, that pisses people off. Too bad. The whole point is that religion deserves no special privilege. The insistence that it does leads to a lot of nice people being considered assholes simply because they do not see why they should feign respect for a despicable institution.

Comment #45: grolby  on  07/30  at  10:52 PM

Perhaps I am biased due to my own religious beliefs, but I fail to see how the New Atheism is any different than Intelligent Design: both have absolute faith that their beliefs are “scientific” and that their theistic commitments (or antagonism to said commitments) are provable via science.

I don’t know a single atheist who has “absolute faith” in anything. I’m pretty sure there aren’t any gods because there’s no evidence for it, but I could be wrong, and I could be proven wrong very easily. Until there’s any evidence to the contrary, I’ll continue to believe all gods are imaginary, because it’s rational to assume something isn’t there if there’s no evidence that it’s there. There’s no evidence that could convince an ID believer or any other fundamentalist that they’re wrong. They’re going to keep insisting they’re right no matter what the evidence suggests.

Perhaps the most important aspect of scientific literacy is understanding what it means to understand something scientifically—which includes an understanding of what kinds of knowledge are scientific and what kinds are not.  Metaphysical speculation is, by definition, beyond physical understanding.

Which is why it’s so uninteresting and fruitless to discuss, argue about, or learn from, because there’s no objective basis for such discussions outside whatever people choose to believe. When there are disagreements about real subjects with real subject matter, you can look to objective reality to resolve them; with religion, you can only make up an answer, which has no more reason to be true than anything anyone else made up.

Comment #46: junk science  on  07/30  at  10:53 PM

Atheists see no evidence of any “supernatural” forces at work in the universe and thus conclude that there are none - themann1086

This is more than a fair conclusion, but it is not a scientific one.  My problem with the “New Atheists” is they pretend, just as the IDiots (I love that term, may I use it?) do, that their conclusions are “scientific”.

Of course, the IDiots are worse because they want to put their pseudo-science in the curriculum in a way that the New Atheists do not.

But to use a trite phrase—absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Actually, in many cases in science, you do have an absence of evidence (e.g. in my field, sometimes there is an absence of evidence to support a particular model of a protein’s structure) but that doesn’t mean there is evidence of absence (the missing data may indicate a lack of order in the protein or it may just be missing for who knows what reason).

Comment #47: DAS  on  07/30  at  10:54 PM

I am given to percieve that they mostly did not see a contraction between their science and their religion.  They most be so fabulously hypocritical!

Or they believed in their god because they thought there was good reason to, which made sense because they didn’t have the information we have. They were wrong about other things, too. That doesn’t make them “hypocritical.”

Comment #48: junk science  on  07/30  at  10:58 PM

Tyro-
My bad, blame my faulty memory. I’ll have to change my example to the tumbler lock then, either that or the flamethrower.

Comment #49: Cerberus  on  07/30  at  10:58 PM

Do you *really* think that we have so much better information about the proof of existence or nonexistence of God than people in the Age of Enlightenment?

What about practicing scientists today who are of some faith?  They must have the same information you do.  Is DAS (if he is theist) just another hypocritical crank who denies all the real evidence of his absurdity?

Comment #50: shah8  on  07/30  at  11:06 PM

BTW—there are, as pointed out above, many moderate religious folk.  It isn’t a case of “you either believe in science or in fundamentalism”.  Indeed, some pretty “magical thinking” theists are also down with science (many Catholics for instance, hence the distinction from evangelicals, although some evangelicals are also ok with evolution!).

So what? Moderate believers enable the fundies - there’s no such thing as “reasonable” religious belief, because there’s no rational basis to draw a line between which magic is believable and which isn’t. If religious people are also down with science, all that means is that they are able or willing to compartmentalize those parts of their mental lives, even when they obviously conflict.

Comment #51: grolby  on  07/30  at  11:13 PM

Well… since I see science as a set of models, and unbound to the truth (so long as the model works) I’ve never been able to see much of a problem between religious belief per se and science.

If you study quantum mechanics a bit, you might start to understand how people had to shift their entire point of view to strange things, not because they make any sense, but because, hell, the *model* works.

Fire an electron at a diffraction grid. It behaves in a way that makes sense *only* if you assume it’s acting like a wave, even though it’s a particle. It doesn’t make sense to someone thinking in the macro world (“how can I throw a tennis ball and have it act like a wave?”) but the proof is easy to obtain. The model works. Live with it.

Religion does affect how people think, and it does affect how they will form models, and I suppose that matters. But I think people can break away from that.

I think religion is getting a bit of a bad rep these days. I don’t think it’s religion causing the problems. But it is a convenient hook… and, unfortunately, it does have the whole “suspend disbelief” bit built right into it.

Comment #52: LongHairedWeirdo  on  07/30  at  11:22 PM

Despite my intense desire to stay out of this I just wanted to raise a glass to Amanda for making what I think is a really incisive point:

Mooney and Kirshenbaum want atheists to be more respectful of people’s religious beliefs….sort of.  And there’s a real incoherence in the plea for toleration of “religious moderates”.  Here’s why: Many a Bible-thumping fundamentalist Protestant would see PZ’s stunt and not be offended (except by his atheism), because they agree with PZ that the Catholic belief in transubstantiation is offensive and weird.  They’d also be supportive of him tossing the Koran and The God Delusion in the trash.  But that he promotes the theory of evolution is beyond offensive to them.

And that’s the problem.  Mooney and Kirshenbaum want PZ to be respectful of Catholic belief in magic, but evangelical beliefs in magic don’t deserve the same respect.  But the latter group is within their rights to call foul, if that’s the case.  How is it that some forms of religious bullshit have to be regarded with respect, and we’re not to argue forcefully against them, but others aren’t?

Comment #53: Steve LaBonne  on  07/30  at  11:23 PM

@ Amanda Marcotte: It’s because one side is arguing from a rationalist viewpoint, and the other is arguing that they want to believe in magic.

It’s obvious why you – indeed, why anyone with a conscience – must argue against reproductive myths and against religious institutions that perpetuate sexist stereotypes while limiting the choices of real women and girls based merely on unproven (or even disproven) superstitions. 

When it comes to the merit of religion itself, however, pretty much the only way you could win a debate (as if that’s even a valid aim) is by doing what you just did – i.e., by framing the argument in such a way that your side is correct by definition. (If yours is the “rationalist” viewpoint, then the other side is irrational and thus not worthy of consideration.)

That bleeds over pretty easily from a mere lack of respect for a belief into a lack of respect for the individual holding that belief, and into silly guessing games as to what motivates someone who ‘keeps the faith.’

Comment #54: Nil  on  07/30  at  11:23 PM

What about practicing scientists today who are of some faith?  They must have the same information you do.  Is DAS (if he is theist) just another hypocritical crank who denies all the real evidence of his absurdity?

Modern theists tend to defensively claim that religious beliefs are simply outside the domain of science, beyond evidence, and in no danger of being discredited by anything in objective reality. I don’t know as much about the history of science as you seem to, but I get the impression that the evidence back then was more in favor of a creator than against. There was no suggestion of how complex life could have come to exist without having been intelligently designed, for example. Religious people now have much more reason to just declare their beliefs outside the domain of objective reality rather than try to defend them using real-world evidence.

Comment #55: junk science  on  07/30  at  11:29 PM

shah8 and DAS, your error is in assuming, first of all, that “God exists” is a reasonable null hypothesis, and second of all, that the “New Atheists” are claiming that atheism is “scientific” (by which I can only assume you mean empirically verifiable.”

The answer to both problems is more or less the same: the absence of evidence for the existence of a God tells us a lot more about the likelihood of the God hypothesis than it does about the null hypothesis. Why should we assume that there is a God? Even more importantly, assuming we start from our a priori position of agnosticism, why should we assume that the existence of a God is equally as likely as the non-existence of a God? There are no compelling reasons that we should, and several compelling reasons that we shouldn’t, to wit:

1. The explanations for the existence, history and workings of the Universe require no God. There is simply no reason to believe that a God could have been or is involved, beyond a personal wish for a more teleological universe. I don’t find such a wish to be terribly impressive as an argument, yet it is essentially what most theists resort to. This is essentially what “New Atheists” like Dawkins are getting at: there’s no evidence for God, and no reason to believe in one given that our scientifically gathered empirical evidence and knowledge about the universe do not require a supernatural designer in order to make sense.

2. Being able to suggest the existence of anything does not make that something likely or worth taking seriously. Dawkins is a big fan of Bertrand Russell’s celestial teapot, and so am I. It goes like this: I believe that there is a china tea set revolving around the sun, somewhere between the orbit of Jupiter and Saturn. It is impossible to disprove the existence of this tea set, since we don’t have any optics that could be trained upon such a tiny object, let alone find it in such a vast amount of space. There’s no evidence that this teapot does not exist, but are its existence and non-existence equally likely? Of course not - it’s unlikely to the point of being absurd, which is the whole point of the exercise. Suggesting that there might be a God, possessed of certain properties, is no more worth taking seriously. The existence of any such being is outrageously, ridiculously unlikely. Yet we are asked to take this possibility as seriously or more seriously than the null hypothesis of no God? What a laugh.

3. There is an enormously vast array of gods, goddesses, supernatural beings and forces that have been suggested and believed in throughout the course of history, most of them wildly contradictory in details of power, origin story, and so on. What’s so special about any one of these that it must be taken seriously or believed over others that have disappeared or discarded. Of course, stating that all of these stories are all somehow true or correct about the nature of god and universe is laughable, but I do know people who would try and go there.

The list goes on. Belief in god is ridiculous. There’s no reason to consider the god hypothesis to be on the same footing, probability-wise, as our null-hypothesis, but believers strenuously insist that we should at LEAST consider the answer “unknowable.” It’s stupid. The answer as to whether or not there is a lovely fruitbasket suspended in the heart of the Dark Horse Nebula is also unknowable, but at least in that case, most everyone is able to recognize that even asking the question seriously is fucking stupid.

Comment #56: grolby  on  07/30  at  11:41 PM

Who seriously gives a shit if Pluto is a planet?

I do, sort of.

I think the way the scientific definition of planet has come about is a bit weak.  The difference is the “ability to clear their orbit of other debris,” but what is debris?  Does matter at lagrange points make a difference?  If something the size of Diemos were to get close enough to Makemake, I am sure Makemake would suck it in…  That’s the nature of gravity.  Would we suddenly decide to promote Makemake?

Neptune and Pluto’s orbits are in an interesting synchronization—has Neptune failed to clear its orbit?  Should it be demoted to a dwarf planet?

I’d have left the definition as a non-stellar body orbiting a stellar body that have a large enough mass that their gravitational force pulls them into a generally spheroid shape.  Even if that means Ceres is a planet…

Comment #57: James  on  07/30  at  11:43 PM

When it comes to the merit of religion itself, however, pretty much the only way you could win a debate (as if that’s even a valid aim) is by doing what you just did – i.e., by framing the argument in such a way that your side is correct by definition. (If yours is the “rationalist” viewpoint, then the other side is irrational and thus not worthy of consideration.)

Okay. Explain how believing in a god is rational, could possibly be rational, and you’ll have a point. Otherwise, you’re just whining. “It’s not fay-ur!” Well, life is not fair. It’s not a matter of framing, it’s a matter of reality. I’m unimpressed by whining about how Amanda’s comment is “against the rules.” If your side IS rational, then fucking well demonstrate it.

(And what the fuck? Winning a debate is not a valid aim? The fuck is that?)

Comment #58: grolby  on  07/30  at  11:47 PM

Spoken like a true intolerant atheist bigot. Who are you to decide someone’s sacred and untouchable beliefs are “magic”? You’re obligated to pretend they’re as worthy of consideration as actual facts, if not more so. Believing in gods isn’t the same as believing in magic, because it isn’t, so there.
junk science on 07/30 at 09:28 PM

Wow!  You do that fundie schtick really well, do I sense a recovering born again?

Comment #59: phylosopher  on  07/30  at  11:50 PM

I’d have left the definition as a non-stellar body orbiting a stellar body that have a large enough mass that their gravitational force pulls them into a generally spheroid shape.  Even if that means Ceres is a planet…

Uh, yeah, by your definition the Solar System would have dozens of planets. So why don’t we leave this one to the actual experts?

Comment #60: grolby  on  07/30  at  11:51 PM

Whoops, got Ceres mixed up with Charon. Not dozens. Still; that’s why I’m not involved in the discussion on what gets to be called a planet.

Comment #61: grolby  on  07/30  at  11:54 PM

So science and religion are in conflict.

hmm, I wonder however those super schmart scientists and philosophers of yor (and even today) reconciled the “contradictions” of science and religion.  I am given to percieve that they mostly did not see a contraction between their science and their religion.  They most be so fabulously hypocritical!  Or fabulously deluded!  Isaac Newton and Rene Descartes SHAME ON YOU!  WE SHAN’T EVER READ YOU AGAIN!

They did it (or attempted to) very crudely and often circularly.  And they lacked a lot of what we today know to be scientifically true and (mostly) accepted.  It made sense to see human as a special creation before Darwinism was articulated.  It made sense to see the supernatural at work when the brain and brain function weren’t subject to CAT scans and psychotropics. 

So, like much of Newton, parts of which fell (thank you Einstein and quantum physics) we look at it and say - gee, for those times, that was really good, but yeah, this part is laughable.  Just as today, we look at,  say, the keypunch and from our computing age, realize that was impressive, given the times and tools.

Comment #62: phylosopher  on  07/31  at  12:02 AM

You do that fundie schtick really well, do I sense a recovering born again?

No, just someone who’s easily irritated and pays too much attention.

Comment #63: junk science  on  07/31  at  12:11 AM

Since we’re talking about ID, tt’s worth pointing out that the originators of the ID movement are by their own admission arguing in bad faith.  The entire exercise is an attempt to insinuate religious creationism into public school classrooms.  This is the “wedge strategy”.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

Comment #64: dcb-  on  07/31  at  12:19 AM

By the way, conflict between religion and both science AND philosophy was a serious problem for centuries. Descartes can really be thanked for helping to formulate dualism, giving religion its arena to play in, and science (well, reason) its separate space. It’s a fiction, but before that there was no hiding the conflict between religion and rational thought. Unfortunately, Cartesian Dualism has stuck around long past its sell-by date, and it was always bullshit to begin with. The fact that religious people were able to do science from about the late Rennaissance on without getting in (too much) trouble (if they were lucky and didn’t make the wrong kind of discoveries) does not even remotely resemble evidence for a lack of conflict between science and religion.

Comment #65: grolby  on  07/31  at  12:25 AM

“Both science and religion functions are determined through a process of political patronage.  Great thought occurs in politically open eras—for both science and religion.  Politically closed eras affects *both* science and religion, and we should not mistake conflicts between science an religion as something intrinsic so much as they are sock-puppets for other causes.” -Shah8

I can definitely get behind that perspective - but then, it’s a far cry from what you were saying earlier, about how science *needs* religion. In fact, it seems pretty much the opposite.

Although, as for the science as a sock puppet thing, I guess it depends on your definition of science. Personally, I think of “bad science” (evopsych being the example that springs to mind) as not really being science at all, so when someone uses it to justify their argument it’s not *science* being used as a sock puppet. However, since religion can be totally self-contradictory, irrational, and about *anything* (teapot, anyone?) it’s ridiculously easy to use.

Since I’m on a roll, I’ll add my two cents about this:

“When it comes to the merit of religion itself, however, pretty much the only way you could win a debate (as if that’s even a valid aim) is by doing what you just did – i.e., by framing the argument in such a way that your side is correct by definition. (If yours is the “rationalist” viewpoint, then the other side is irrational and thus not worthy of consideration.)”

Erm. The other side *is* irrational. Some theists are *proud* of being irrational, because “some things can’t be proven - it’s just a matter of belief.” To which the only response is really “That’s nice, dear.” There’s no point in debate, because the whole premise in a debate is that rational arguments will be used to reach a rational conclusion.

And just to be clear, I wouldn’t say that just because something is irrational, it’s not worthy of consideration. I’ve considered irrational things quite a bit, having been raised in a religious family. I just ended up rejecting them, because I *like* rationality. It works for me.

Comment #66: Zef  on  07/31  at  12:27 AM

It’s understandable that a public that believes they have a right not to have their beliefs in magic and angels criticized will move right into using their “it’s my belief, dammit, so STFU” mentality into covering for the belief that there’s no such thing as global warming or evolution.

There’s also the aspect of “I have a right not to have my feelings hurt you big fat meanie-head D:”. There is, theoretically, a great opportunity to foster the ability to handle criticism and critique early on in school, but it never happens (in my experience), because teachers don’t take the time and kids catch on very quickly that they aren’t supposed to actually critique during peer review sessions

I don’t think the conflict is necessary. Religion should be perfectly happy to update itself to survive each new scientific discovery, but saying that religion is somehow necessary to science is kinda unsupported by experience and history.

I never thought it was necessary, either. I spent most of my life with the (false) understanding that only a few, fringe nutballs actually believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Where I grew up, in Northern KY, science was accepted as—y’know—fact. That’s not to say people didn’t claim membership to religions—they just adjusted the “official” teachings of their faith to fit with today’s reality. (Of course, it was a largely Catholic area, and most American Catholics have been cherry picking their doctrine since the Vatican came out with its “no birth control” BS.)

Comment #67: Diane  on  07/31  at  12:40 AM

Das, do you believe in unicorns? Sues? No, of course not. Because there’s no evidence. There, you’ve made a science-based aunicorn/azeus argument. And I can accuse you of being “just as bad” as someone thumping a Bible. Your firm lack of belief in unicorns makes you an intolerant fundie. Just because unicorns don’t exist is no reason to say so, or find flaw in those who believe in unicorns.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/31  at  12:42 AM

Devil’s, I made my argument clear. There is no such thing as a single standard fir which magical beliefs get protection from criticism and which don’t. All taboos against critcizing magic encourage people to feel entitled to deny reality.

Religion is a flaw, but all people have flaws. I no more think religion makes you a bad person than having a temper does.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/31  at  12:49 AM

Scientific and religious thought feed from each other because people thought that there was a relationship between the motions of reality and what was beyond.  Moreover, we would not have a scientific tradition without the impact of religious thought.  Generally, when religion really got free to be its own thing for a short while, it *promotes* the sciences.  This is so because religion was often the only place where someone could think anything like independent thought that was contrary to the political order of the day.  Religion was also a primary source of the demand that we have a kind of infrastructure of knowlege that is the core of scientific thought.  To know that a ball falls is one thing.  To know a system of balls falling is quite another.  It’s about more than merely collecting knowlege or collecting a skill here and there but to put everything in context with each other.  Science is not affiliated with religion anymore than science is affiliated with natural philosophy, but to deny the historical connection is folly.

I guess I’ll have to stop here.  I’m being a pedant, but there is no cure for this kind of ignorant idiocy enspoused by people here.  There are quite a few Jesuits who can school some of you guys in being rational.  Hmmpf, wonder if anyone has ever read about the relationship between the russian communists, athiesm, and the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Dumbass athiests are every bit the menace to society as dumbass theists.

/me heaves Neal Stephenson’s Anathem + Octavia Butler’s Parable duology at the crowd…

Comment #70: shah8  on  07/31  at  12:50 AM

For rather the same reason you can’t use the Bible to reach a scientific conclusion about the origins of life, you can’t use science to prove the nonexistance (or existance) of god.  God is by definition not susceptible to the methods of scientific inquiry.

Historical claims of particualr religions, though are another matter entirely . . .

Comment #71: rea  on  07/31  at  12:56 AM

Apologies for typoes. Stupid iPhone.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/31  at  12:58 AM

This is why I hate Richard Dawkins:

Religion is a flaw, hey, that’s not so bad.  It’s just like if you had a temper.

Jesus

Religion is not something like freckles.  It’s how someone places him or herself in the cosmos.  To say that it’s a flaw is to be condescending in a repellant way.

No one is going anywheres so long as you insist that religion == magical thinking.  You can be critical of many things about religion—like texts, critters, and history (and most actual honest practictioners will grant you that there is quite a bit to be critical about), but you can’t actually be critical of religious thought.  Not without straying from sound empirical grounds into some very philosophically invalid positivist territory.  Not least because this methodology can be twisted around to reflect on you, the athiest.

Comment #73: shah8  on  07/31  at  01:09 AM

Rea, you can’t use science to absolutely disprove unicorns, or that cats can talk. Do you think belief in these is reasonable? That one is wrong to roll their eyes if someone says her cats speak English?

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/31  at  01:11 AM

M&K;have a deep, personal beef with PZ Myers. Sadly, they decided to use that beef as a cudgel in their book , ostensibly to make a point. They failed. All they managed to do was come off looking like they were getting some sort of high school revenge.

They are also notorious for twisting their intellectual opponent’s views, then attacking them, then avoiding any sort of substantive engagement when called on it. Further, Mooney has now admitted, in the bowels of a thread on DailyKos, that he completely misattributed the idea that science has absolutely disproven God’s existence to Dawkins (and misquoted him to boot), and yes, it was PZ Myers who tripped him up. I note Mooney has failed to post anything about that fact (one he uses regularly in the presentation of his arguments and to flog his book) on his blog, and continues to behave as if it just didn’t happen.

As for their views on religion and public policy - they are useless. Accommodating religion on science policy in the public sphere is exactly the same as surrender. The people we are engaging in these debates over whether evolution should be taught side by side with I.D. aren’t interested in compromise, even though any compromise already represents a highly bastardized science curriculum, and backward public policy. I.D.‘ers are interested in total victory and nothing less. An inch will result in a light year in very short order with them. It is difficult to understand how the guy who wrote The Republican War On Science now fails to understand this. Creationists view this as holy war, and nothing less. They will say and do anything to win, and the price of a victory for them is far too high for the rest of us.

Some things should not be negotiable. There is zero reason to allow myth and theology any room in the formulation of curriculum for public schools and universities outside of those same two subjects. We don’t need right wing fundies teaching our kids about “creation science”, nor social studies, nor anything.

Accommodation with the Catholic Church (and the Protestant fundies) would mean injecting Catholic theology into public policy in the form of abortion. The Church stance on this is unambiguous: abortion is a sin, and must stop. Period. Where is there room for accommodation here? Much has been made of the abortion reduction policy ideas being thrown around, but those, too, represent first steps for the religionists, even if some misguided pro-choicers see them as a final compromise. There is no final compromise possible - these people feel compelled by their belief in certain theologies to bring the practice of abortion in America to a complete and total end. If they can find a foothold through these reduction ideas, they will cheerfully use them on the way to shuttering the last abortion clinic. There is no middle ground for them. None.

Mooney in particular is a disappointment, given his previous book (I can’t say too, much about Kirshenbaum as so far I have only blog posts to go on, but she has been right there with Mooney over bashing atheists and consistently misrepresenting them). Somewhere along the line he got caught up in this whole framing craze and has taken on the guise of a true Villager - every story has two sides of exactly equal value, even when they clearly do not. I suspect he’ll make a fine establishment journalist prattling on about bipartisanship at the feet of David Broder. He already knows how to lie about the people he writes about, can conjure up a false equivalency on the spot, and believes the kabuki of any public “conversation” is inherently more important than its contents.

PZ Myers is a rude, outspoken bastard, but at least he says what he means and strives to tell the truth.

Comment #75: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  01:13 AM

You can’t use science to prove that you actually exist, either.  Or perhaps you exist, but the rest of the world you see doesn’t.  You can’t use science to prove that your boyfriend loves you or hates you.  You can’t use science to prove that what you are doing is intrinsically right or natural.  You can’t prove any number of things through empiricism.

It doesn’t make me a theist knowing all of that.  But some people really care, and plenty others can make some arguments that are more logical than you might suspect.  They’ve come a long way since Pascal’s Bet!

And then there is the whole aesthetic and emotional satisfaction component…

Comment #76: shah8  on  07/31  at  01:20 AM

@ Amanda Marcotte: It’s because one side is arguing from a rationalist viewpoint, and the other is arguing that they want to believe in magic.

I agree with you that this is true in terms of challenging someone’s faith directly. If, however, you want to argue with them about how their religion affects the real world, it’s perfectly possible to have a discussion (at least, it’s possible if they are sufficiently moderate as to believe that not everyone should have to conform to their religion).
I’ve won devout Christians over to the side of being pro-choice by convincing then that the only reasonable basis for being anti-choice is based in their specific religion, and that separation of church and state is a good thing.
That discussion requires granting a lot of things that I don’t agree with. Like that a specific religious belief is a ‘reasonable basis’ for thinking anything. But I’m not really invested in convincing someone else that they’re being silly about their personal beliefs - I just don’t want them imposing those on other people via laws, curricula, or social pressure.

In short - I don’t think getting people to be atheists is a pre-requisite for scientific literacy, and acting like it is is a great way to throw roadblocks in front of many people becoming scientifically literate.

Comment #77: jalmondale  on  07/31  at  01:21 AM

Let’s start with the most incendiary one—-their lambasting of New Atheism.  I am so sick of the argument that assumes religious people can state their beliefs as forcefully as they like and threaten non-believers with hell, but atheists have to approach the topic on our tip toes.  Mooney and Kirshenbaum repeatedly state that there’s no conflict between religion and science as if it’s a fact, when at best that’s a point of strong disagreement.

I think they want to advocate for science, not against religion.  Science and religion may or may not be compatible; that’s a question on which the jury is still out.  (The view that the only excuse for a belief in God is the concomitant belief that there’s no explaining the existence of the universe without him is a cynical-rightie position; it’s ironic to see it shared by so many left-wingers.)

Let’s say that the existence of the universe is not dependent on the existence of God.  That’s easy enough to imagine, whether or not it’s true.  If it’s not too difficult to imagine that the universe can continue to sustain itself independent of the existence of God, why should it be difficult to imagine that the insights science can continue to be valid even if God does exist?  If we can conceive of a physical nature which does not owe its actuality to a Creator, why can’t we conceive of a discipline concerned with the exploration of the laws of that physical nature which does not owe its actuality to the lack of a Creator?  (If you see what I mean.)

Of course Mooney and Kirshenbaum overdo it.  What they sound like is, they sound like apologists (see: shah8).  Still, I think that their concern is that the anti-religious fight per se is not their fight, and they’re leery of being absorbed into it.  That, and there are ever so may froth-at-the-mouth righties who are always claiming that analytical thinking is inherently antireligious.  I think Mooney and Kirshenbaum want to stay as far away from these people as they can: the Right is   teeming with gifted propagandists (if destitute of real ideas) and it’s not impossible that someone could pop out of the ether brandishing a meme which says that pro-science writers back the claims of anti-Enlightenment ranters, insofar as both factions agree that there’s no room in the same paradigm for God and levelheadedness: you can have one or the other but not both. 

I am not the believer I used to be but that’s a proposition by which I am not convinced; I’m guessing it’s an idea which Mooney and Kirshenbaum don’t want attributed to them.  Hence their caginess.  JMO.

Comment #78: bekabot  on  07/31  at  01:21 AM

For clarity: Atheists don’t give a fig if people choose to believe in God, Allah, whatever. They disagree that God actually exists and find some Christianist claims as proof of God’s existence sorely lacking, but are quite willing to let people choose to believe as they will.

The difficulty immediately arises when those who believe attempt to take their belief and imprint it on public policy in any way shape or form. The conflict arises when believers fashion a false sicentific curriculum and attempt to pass it off as actual science, instead of Christian theology masquerading as intellectualism and bearing some relation to reality (which it does not).

This is the arena in which this conflict has really gained heat, because the forces of enforced ignorance are not content to believe, pray, and spread the good word through churches and personal example, they wish to codify it in policy and the law. No fucking way. It should further be said that those forces of willful ignorance will lie in the service of their agenda, having basically talked themselves into the notion that lying on behalf of advancing a Christianist legal and policy agenda is acceptable.  The ends justify the means in their eyes. The sane Christians I know would vehemently disagree, but they are either outnumbered, out-organized (to be sure), and/or under funded.

Religion and science (rationality, really) can coexist in the world, but not in the classroom, or the legislature, and so on.

Comment #79: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  01:27 AM

You can’t use science to prove that you actually exist, either.  Or perhaps you exist, but the rest of the world you see doesn’t.

Sure I can. There’s evidence that I exist, starting with the fact that I can see myself. I might be a cleverly designed illusion, but since assuming that requires a greater number of unsupported beliefs than just assuming my eyes aren’t lying to me, it’s rational to assume they aren’t. Not on par with assuming gods exist.

You can’t use science to prove that your boyfriend loves you or hates you.

You also have evidence that he loves you or hates you, such as how he treats you and what he says. You can’t absolutely know for sure he’s not just lying to you, but it’s rational to believe he actually loves you if he acts like he does. Also not on par with assuming gods exist with no evidence.

You can’t use science to prove that what you are doing is intrinsically right or natural.

That’s a legitimately nonscientific question, a value judgment. “There exists an intelligent being who created the universe” is not a value judgment, it’s an assertion that’s either true or false.

But some people really care, and plenty others can make some arguments that are more logical than you might suspect. 

I would absolutely love to hear one besides “You can’t prove God doesn’t exist, so there.” It would be refreshing.

And then there is the whole aesthetic and emotional satisfaction component…

Which has nothing to do with the actual existence of gods, and only explains why people want to believe in them.

Comment #80: junk science  on  07/31  at  01:33 AM

you can’t use science to prove the nonexistance (or existance) of god.  God is by definition not susceptible to the methods of scientific inquiry.

Isn’t that, in a roundabout way, what Kierkegaard was saying when he wrote that the belief in God is a leap of faith? I substitute teach in the local southern school system and I cannot tell you how many times kids have asked if I ‘believe’ in God. I tell them I don’t know but if they believe that is all that matters. God is not a fact; God is a belief. (I put South in there because I never had that question asked of me in all the years I taught in the north; I think it has something to do with the tremendous Baptist following down here where the first thing I am usually asked is what church I belong to. The Baptist are really keen on that.)

People, I have found, are scared of science because they really, truly don’t understand and have no real intellectual need to learn. They prefer ignorance. Just ask the average person how a microwave works: my guess would be that maybe 1 0r 2 out of ten can tell you. Or ask them the difference between their old tv and their new lcd tv. Or ask them why the daylight is longer in summer than winter. Or ask them how their car works. Or ask them how their refrigerator works.

You get the idea.

People claim that they want their children to be ‘smart’ but being smart is the hard thing to do in America. If it wasn’t, we would be watching college think bowls; not NCAA bowls.

Comment #81: caliban  on  07/31  at  01:38 AM

Wow?  An apologist?  What am I actually apologizing or excusing?  My beef isn’t about we are all intolerant about ID or that we should make space for religious ideas in public policy.  I have very little tolerance for stupidity.

My beef is that if we’re gonna be athiests, at least we should be athiest with a fucking perspective.  And a clue or two.

Comment #82: shah8  on  07/31  at  01:43 AM

For rather the same reason you can’t use the Bible to reach a scientific conclusion about the origins of life, you can’t use science to prove the nonexistance (or existance) of god
Tell that to Carl Sagan and the invisible, incorporeal dragon in his garage.

I’m always surprised that the claim “religion and science conflict” is controversial at all.  I went to school with people who sincerely believe that the earth is 6000 years old, and they believe this because their religion requires belief in the literal truth of the Bible.

This religion says the Earth is 6000 years old.  Geology says it is not.  Bam. Conflict.  There’s really no room for non-overlapping magesteria bullshit unless you’re prepared to start playing no-true-scotsman and declaring great swaths of religions “not real religions.”

I doubt that this is this really an argument about whether science ever, always, or never conflicts with any or all religions.  Rather, I suspect this has everything to do with a dispute over whether or not religion should be accorded the same sort of respect science is accorded by liberals/academics/scientists etc.

@shah8
No one is going anywheres so long as you insist that religion == magical thinking.  You can be critical of many things about religion—like texts, critters, and history (and most actual honest practictioners will grant you that there is quite a bit to be critical about), but you can’t actually be critical of religious thought.  Not without straying from sound empirical grounds into some very philosophically invalid positivist territory.

Shah, atheists actually honestly truly believe that religious beliefs are equivalent to magical beliefs.  How on earth is that invalid philosophical positivism?  A variety of philosophical traditions other than positivists have made equivalent claims.  I mean, for christ’s sake, the existentialists were famously atheistic as were historical materialists.

Are you maybe saying that you can’t use science to criticize religion because we’d have to agree beforehand on the epistemological framework of science rather than religion and that agreement can’t be decided by science?  That is less crazy but still wrong since nothing prevents us from using some other criterion for selecting science and then using science to criticize religion.

I’m happy to leave the empirical disputes with religion to science and go after the conceptual issues with philosophy, but this still doesn’t exempt religion from criticism.

Comment #83: Thom  on  07/31  at  02:02 AM

Apologist means defender, shah8.  Apologetics is a theological practice of (intellectually) defending a faith against criticism.

Appropriately enough, Plato’s account of Socrates’ defense against charges of impiety is “The Apology.”

Comment #84: Thom  on  07/31  at  02:05 AM

I’m always surprised that the claim “religion and science conflict” is controversial at all.  I went to school with people who sincerely believe that the earth is 6000 years old, and they believe this because their religion requires belief in the literal truth of the Bible.

Part of the difficulty stems from the difference between those who construe the Bible as the literal words of God, and those who construe it as the Word of God.

Catholics, for example, are fairly science friendly, don’t dispute the findings of astronomy (not in this century, anyway), geology, and so on. They view the Bible more as the overall Word, than as the exact, literal words of the Creator they believe in.

Bible literalists, on the other hand, are usually front and center in these public sphere/policy/law conflagrations, even though they conveniently only choose to follow some of the literal words of God in their Holy Book, something which has always puzzled me. If the Bible is, in fact, the literal language God chose to use to communicate with Humanity (down to the individual word, which literalists say is the case), why are those same people so ready to discard some of His words. If they are literal, are they not ALL literal? They certainly do discard large swathes of those words in their theology, public actions, etc.

*scratches head*

I’m a recovering Catholic, so I have enough background to think I can wrap my brain around this, but I can’t.

Comment #85: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  02:11 AM

My beef is that if we’re gonna be athiests, at least we should be athiest with a fucking perspective.

What perspective?  Whose perspective?  With a view toward accomplishing what?  Upton Sinclair maintained that everything was propaganda, more or less (I’m simplifying but that’s the gist of many of his writings).  If he was right, and if we’re going to be propagandists, we ought to be clear, with ourselves and with others, about what we’re propagandizing for.

If you want to know what it is that makes me specifically distrust you, it’s your “the genuinely religious ages have always been pro-science” thing.  Sorry, but hooey.  Some genuinely religious ages have been devoted, in their way, to rationality, but others haven’t; there’s never been a hard or fast rule either way.  The Catholic church at its high-medieval peak was Mariolatristic and antirational; it made a superstition of learning but was not interested in constructing systems describing the reasons whereby buckets fall.  It wasn’t interested in finding out whether Aristotle’s account of the reasons whereby buckets fall was accurate or not.  Consequently the discoveries connected with such issues were reserved for secular men living in a later era.

The doctrinal and Biblical nitpicking and literalism associated with early Protestantism probably helped set the stage/lay the foundation for the inception of the scientific method, but were not themselves integral to the scientific method.  Present-day evangelistic practices derived from early-Protestant literalism and nitpicking oppose the scientific method.  Once again, no conclusion can be drawn.

As for your Jesuits, they arose as a reply to Protestantism.  Had there never been any opposition to the Catholic church within Christendom, there would never have been any Jesuits, because there would have been no need to invent them.  Ignatius Loyola and John Calvin were basically born and raised on opposite sides of the same Alp; if Calvin embodied the fullest development of a certain strain of Protestantism (not the strain most interested in finding out the secrets of the physical world), Loyola embodied the opposition which that full development provoked.  (One of the main differences between them is that while Calvin, who regarded vision as the tool of logic, did follow his train of thought to its logical conclusion, Loyola conceived of logic principally as the tool of faith, and thus thought of logic as the tool of vision.)  Neither one of them was a huge fan of “science” as “science” is understood today.

But maybe I’m misjudging/misinterpreting you completely.  Could be.  If so, sorry.

Comment #86: bekabot  on  07/31  at  02:22 AM

Well sure, Fallsroad, but the existence of the biblical literalists answers the question “Does science ever conflict with any religion” an unequivocal yes.

That is, you can’t accept the generally held conclusions of science AND be a member of any religion you choose.  At least some religions do conflict with science.  THat can’t be controversial, but once you buy this conflict is possible, we have a different question, i.e. does this particular belief conflict?  Maybe folks are after something like, “Is the concept of science incompatible with the concept of religion such that no expression of one can be affirmed as true while an expression of the other is also affirmed as true” but I don’t know why we’d ever need to settle that when we can consider particular beliefs.

Comment #87: Thom  on  07/31  at  02:25 AM

Shah8, as usual you are an embarrassment to whatever argument you happen to be advancing.

You can’t use science to prove that you actually exist, either.  Or perhaps you exist, but the rest of the world you see doesn’t.

Note, it is not claimed that science can answer all questions. Only that where science fails, religion does not pick up the slack. So you can’t use science to prove that anything outside your head exists. But neither can you use religion to prove that.

Science explains things which religion does not. Religion explains nothing which science does not.

You can’t use science to prove that your boyfriend loves you or hates you.

To the extent that anyone has ever gained insight into another person’s emotional state, it was through science. Not usually branded as such, but it was all observation. Wishful thinking, on the other hand, leads to heartache.

Comment #88: asdf  on  07/31  at  02:25 AM

I am not defending faith, more like I’m defending nonfaith.

1)  Yeah, I concede the 6000 years thing and no-true-scotsman.  Never had said otherwise.  I had said that religion and science do not conflict.  I said nothing about what religion, nor what flavor of religion.  I mean precisely that religion and science do not conflict.  The practice of theology and the practice of science do not conflict—they are of, ultimately, different spheres.

2)  I do not believe that religion should be accorded precedent in decisions about material things.  I believe that religion is someone’s own business until that business affects someone else’s without consent.

3)  Being athiest does not make us a better judge of reality.  It just means we don’t believe in a God or that we believe God is irrelevant.  It doesn’t make us a good judge of what is magical thinking and what isn’t.

I really don’t understand that epistomological framework question.  Science *is* an epistomological framework, right?

As for the positivism, I was saying that people are leaning on their axioms just a little too hard.

Comment #89: shah8  on  07/31  at  02:30 AM

asdf, you’re the one that had to have everyone pound on you the realities of thought.

Comment #90: shah8  on  07/31  at  02:31 AM

asdf, you’re the one that had to have everyone pound on you the realities of thought.

Note that I had the good sense to admit I was no longer sure what the hell I was talking about, and shut the fuck up.

Comment #91: asdf  on  07/31  at  02:33 AM

No, beckabot, I don’t think you are misunderstanding me, and I think your arguments have merit.  I think I *did* take that a bit far, but I only wanted to emphasis much of the interrelatedness between science and religion.  Note, I am not talking about one religion’s attitudes about scientific progress through time.  I am talking about many different religions and sects interacting with many different scientific and philosophical fields.  I am talking about how our capacity for religious thought worked with our capacity for scientific thought.  Moreover, I am saying that religious thought does not make us any less rational or any more human than scientific thought.  You can have rather serious dysfunction either way.

Comment #92: shah8  on  07/31  at  02:43 AM

Claim:  “Religion and science don’t conflict.”
Response:  “This religion says the earth is 6000 years old.  Science says it is not.”
Reply: “I said nothing about what religion, nor what flavor of religion.”

Sure, but if Religion qua Religion does not conflict with Science qua Science, then there will be NO cases where a particular religion conflicts with science on a matter of fundamental importance to that religion.  And yet, there is.  You claim that science and religion are of different spheres, but this particular religion says as a matter of central dogma that it is empirically true that the earth is 6000 years old.  To get out of this, you’ve got to claim that this religion isn’t a proper religion.

Unless maybe you mean to say “It is possible for some religion to exist that does not conflict with science” which seems to be true, but trivial. (i.e. “Our religion is holding all empirical claims as subject to revision!”)?

2) Why should religions that only make claims about non-material things be given precedence over religions that make claims about material things?  If religion really doesn’t conflict with science, what is the basis for this distinction?  Catholics good, Baptists bad!  On what basis?  Science?

3) I don’t think you understand your own arguments.  For example, you say that saying religion = magic is illegitimate positivism which makes no sense.  You might as well say it is illegitimate freemasonry. 

The epistemological framework example was me trying to work out a more cogent argument on your behalf.  Yes, science is an epistemological framework, as is religion.  But it is not obviously true that all epistemological frameworks are true, valid, or equivalent, that one cannot be used to criticize another, or that no other criterion (i.e. philosophy, coin-tosses, voting, tradition) could be legitimately used to choose one framework over another.

This isn’t nit-picking; you’re stumping about complaining about people being narrow minded, but your claims either are nonsense or rely on everyone deciding to agree with all of your unspoken presuppositions.  Maybe your presuppositions are correct, but you can’t just huff and puff because folks don’t say, “Oh, well, obviously.”

Comment #93: Thom  on  07/31  at  02:52 AM

Moreover, I am saying that religious thought does not make us any less rational or any more human than scientific thought.  You can have rather serious dysfunction either way.

If by that you mean a theist can be as rational as an atheist on every single topic besides the existence of deity, then that’s trivial, and you’ve wasted everyone’s time.

If you mean it is not less rational to believe in god than to lack same belief, then you’re wrong.

Comment #94: asdf  on  07/31  at  02:52 AM

This is a pointless conversation. Shah8, DAS, I applaud you for giving it the ol’ college try, but there’s no arguing with people who will not accept facts.

They take any sort of religious belief as prima facie evidence of stupidity and irrationality.

Amanda, I’m really sorry your local Episcopal parish was sloppy with their catechesis; my Lutheran parish was, too. But your ignorance doesn’t give you the right to tell me what I believe, or to hold me responsible for bullshit 19th Century heresies.

So fuck you in the heart; I’m done.

Comment #95: hamletta  on  07/31  at  02:55 AM

Well…

Okay, I suppose at this point I should be making a distinction between religion and religious claims.

Alright.

So lets say that there this religious guy who says that in his religion, the Earth is 6000 years old.  Let’s say that the next dude along has a religious belief as well!  He believes that the Earth is as old as the Sun.  They get into an argument about some god this and God that, and a scientist walks by and said “The Earth is 4.54 billion years old”.  Did science validate one claim or did it reject that specific claim for both religious guys?  I think such a discussion gets *really* squirrelly. 

What if the second guy also use the same reference of time and has the same age currently in favor by scientist?  Does that mean that his religion is more valid than the first guy’s religion? 

What if tomorrow, revolutionary science is discovered and due to the newest interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, there are a finite multitude of Earths with different ages due to some wierd quantum relativism (hey GUT, Baby!)  Does that suddenly mean that the first guy’s religion was more right all along?

What if the results of empirical study to date has some agreement and some disagreement with both religion, but actually, the first guy’s religion (6000yo Earth) has more things right?  Does that mean that science makes a judgement that there is a better religion?

I’m going to punt the latter two points because I think I might have already answered this (not really, but I’m going to be John Locke and be all inconsistent, for now)

Comment #96: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:12 AM

At one point, Dawkins is chided for making philosophical arguments based in his extensive scientific background.  But to my mind, that’s why philosophy, unlike religion, is a legitimate form of discourse to create deeper understanding of the world—-because it’s about rooting your arguments in the real world, often using real knowledge, instead of making up supernatural explanations.

Let’s not forget, in the old days, scientists were called “natural philosophers.”

Hostility toward scientists is not unique to the ignorant. A lot of artists and writers, from Hawthorne to Kurt Vonnegut, were really disdainful of scientists. One of the few to make a genuine effort to understand them was Sinclair Lewis (“Arrowsmith”).

As for shah8 and people like him: I am so goddamn sick of people who call themselves religious, atheist, agnostic or anything else going on about wah wah atheists are so mean. No, we don’t believe your shit, and we don’t care if you don’t like us for it. Salon used to run one after another article on religious concern trolls, although that seems to have mercifully stopped.

Comment #97: Bitter Scribe  on  07/31  at  03:12 AM

Athiest are mean when they say you’re flawed for believing something. 

Duuuuuuude…

Comment #98: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:22 AM

I’m not sure exactly what Mooney and Kirshenbaum are trying to accomplish with the “religion and science don’t conflict!” idea.  Presumably, they want religious people to stop denying science.  The thing is, in order to convince religious people that their religion doesn’t conflict with science, you have to persuade them of one of two ideas.  Either that

a) they’ve misunderstood the science or
b) they’ve misunderstood their religion.

Well, a) is technically true: most evolution-denying Christian fundies don’t get the science at all.  But even if they understood it perfectly, I guarantee that most of them would still deny that it’s true, because it still conflicts with their religion.  They may not understand every little nuance of evolution, or even the basic principle of how natural selection works, but they understand that it requires the earth to be billions of years old to work—they’re not wrong on that score—and that’s the part they object to.  They understand that it means humans and apes are genetically related—they may have no clue what the family tree looks like, but they know that humans and non-humans share at least one branch, and that’s the part they object to.  Giving them a better understanding of the science isn’t going to change that.

So that leaves b), which is what I think Mooney and Kirshenbaum are actually trying to do.  And as a PR strategy, this is a fucking disaster.  Because you have two nonreligious people (I know Mooney is an atheist, and I believe Kirshenbaum is), advocating ideas that a large group finds offensive for religious reasons, and also claiming that the nonreligious scientists understand your religion better than you do.  You might think that your theology, the beliefs upon which you’ve built your very identity, requires that the earth be only 6000 years old, but you’re wrong!  Is there a single fundie out there who’d be convinced by this?

Well, no.  The phrase “science and religion don’t conflict!” is false on the face of it, as the religious well know, so I think what M&K;are actually trying to argue is something like “science and the core beliefs of religion don’t conflict.”  But then they’re faced with the fact that they’re still trying to define the core beliefs of someone else’s religion for them, and, uh, they don’t really have the credibility to do that.  It seems like the religion-bashing “New Atheists” are actually being more respectful of the religious here, because when someone says “my religion requires me to believe X,” we take their word for it instead of explaining to them how they must have misunderstood their own belief.  Even when X is something that, quite clearly, denies science.

Now, religion and science don’t have to conflict, of course.  There are plenty of religions out there that are science-friendly.*  But this fact, alone, doesn’t do much to solve the problem of religiously based science denialism.  The people who are using their religion to deny science aren’t unaware that there are many belief systems out there which allow for both deity worship and acknowledgment of scientific facts.  They just don’t like those belief systems.  These people aren’t attached to a vague idea of “being religious”; they’re attached to THEIR PARTICULAR RELIGION.  Telling them that science and religion don’t have to conflict doesn’t change that.

So if “science and religion don’t conflict!” is such a PR disaster when dealing with fundies, why are M&K;hammering it so hard?  Because it’s not fundies they’re trying to convince; they’re trying to convince other atheists, because they think it makes them seem “nicer” than those other atheists.  Which pretty much reduces the whole book to an intra-atheist squabble rather than a sincere attempt to get people to believe in science.  And god knows that intra-atheist squabbles are JUST what the world needs more of.

 

*I would argue that there are no religions out there that are efficiently-parsimonious-epistemology-friendly, and it’s true that an efficiently parsimonious epistemology is a big help in doing science.  But it’s not 100% necessary, as the proliferation of good scientists who are also religious believers proves, so it’s not a hill I’m willing to die on.

Comment #99: Kathleen F.  on  07/31  at  03:23 AM

Hi Thom:

Well sure, Fallsroad, but the existence of the biblical literalists answers the question “Does science ever conflict with any religion” an unequivocal yes.
That is, you can’t accept the generally held conclusions of science AND be a member of any religion you choose.  At least some religions do conflict with science.  THat can’t be controversial, but once you buy this conflict is possible, we have a different question, i.e. does this particular belief conflict?  Maybe folks are after something like, “Is the concept of science incompatible with the concept of religion such that no expression of one can be affirmed as true while an expression of the other is also affirmed as true” but I don’t know why we’d ever need to settle that when we can consider particular beliefs.

I had no intention of using one flavor of religion to account for all - that is a useless approach, as you point out. Science (or more accurately for me, reason) conflicts with all religion at some point, when the two intersect in some parts of the public sphere. My comments were meant to be more narrow than perhaps they were.

I’ve followed the back and forth and round and round online involving various atheists, believers, and Mooney and Kirshenbaum, and the launch point of so much of that round robin discussion is clearly the explicitly Christianist push to remake public policy, education, and governance in their own, extremist image. The majority of what people like Myers, Coyne, and other American atheists are on about blew up from those specific flash points. Yes, it has certainly and inevitably migrated to some extent into the larger and unanswerable questions of “Is there a God (of any flavor), and can science prove/disprove this.” A careful reading of most of these atheists reveals two things: 1. They do not personally believe in God of any stripe 2. They all admit readily that science cannot disprove the existence of God, but that it is a relevant tool when believers of any God make explicit claims about that God’s actions as they affect the natural world.

I admit my interest in this is perhaps more narrow and more concrete than some poster’s here who are merrily discussing the existence and nature of God writ large, and that is fine - it has made for interesting reading for a recovering Catholic (learned that phrase from the guy who married my wife and I, and it is so damned accurate) who has arrived at a point where the existence of God is something I do not believe to be true, but whose existence, for me personally, has become largely irrelevant. Others believe, in their myriad ways, and when some attempt to force me to swallow some or all of their beliefs through the aegis of policy, regulation, education and law, I resist. The greater their efforts, the geater my resistance, and that struggle inevitably widens and can turn rather sour, which I think has played out rather publicly in recent years, and I predict will worsen for some time to come. I also think M&K;really don’t understand the dynamics involved at all, and in fact, with their modified stances recently, are doing more harm than good, giving aid and comfort to the forces of ignorance. Recent pieces they had in Newsweek and hte Boston Globe were quite explicitly laying the blame for all of this conflict squarely at the feet of scientists, which is an absurdly simplistic reading of what is actually happening. It also belies their rhetoric of moderation.

All of that is a horrifically long winded way of saying: Yes, you are right, an instance of one specific religion is not representative of all religions, and my comments do not advance the question of the nature or existence of God.

Comment #100: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  03:26 AM

and um, since the thread is ultimately about the book, I suppose I should say that I certainly agree with Kathleen F and Amanda Marcotte that M&K;is being deeply stupid and irresponsible about the idea that there should be outreach to “religious moderates”.  That’s Village talk.  There isn’t such a thing as “religious moderates”, and it’s highly inappropriate to cater science to beliefs, since that’s really more like *tailoring* science to beliefs.  I haven’t said anything before now, because I was leaving that as a given.

Comment #101: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:32 AM

What if the results of empirical study to date has some agreement and some disagreement with both religion, but actually, the first guy’s religion (6000yo Earth) has more things right?  Does that mean that science makes a judgement that there is a better religion?

In your examples, science hasn’t made a judgment about the quality of either religion, only the factual claims either has made with regard to specific interaction with the material world. If one religion should claim God made the Earth 4.5 billion years ago, and the science concurs that was when Earth came into being, that is not a judgment of any kind about any of the values the religion claims to represent, nor an admission that God was the agent of creation of Earth, nor any of its other claims about its God and the natural world.

Comment #102: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  03:32 AM

shah8, you’re doing nothing but punting.  Hell, you start by saying you need to distinguish religion and religious belief and then hare off without doing so.

Did science validate one claim or did it reject that specific claim for both religious guys?  I think such a discussion gets *really* squirrelly.

This isn’t squirrelly at all, you’re just punting by being vague.  What do you mean by “reject”?  What do you mean “validate”?  The scientist agreed with the old-earth religion’s conclusion.  The scientist may or may not have disagreed with the old-earth religion’s reasoning, which is left unspoken (i.e. what does he mean “god did this”?)  What are you asking? 

I get that the rest of your questions are supposed to be rhetorical, but I honestly don’t know what you mean when you ask whether new scientific discoveries make one religion more valid or true, or whether one was really more true or valid all along, or where these questions are supposed to lead me.

Are you just asking “Which one agrees with the claims of science”?  That is easy enough.  Are you asking “does The Truth change with scientific revolutions?” Well, that depends on what you mean by The Truth.  Our interpretation of the world changes, that’s for sure.  We might say that the world itself doesn’t change, but it isn’t clear that we can speak meaningfully about anything but our interpretatino of the world.  Or maybe you’re just saying that scientific claims can and have been rejected and revised?  And I don’t see how any of these conclusions would support anything you’ve said unless you’ve only meant to say, “Religion and science are different things.”  Which, duh.

I’m trying to read you charitably, but this is a mishmash.

Comment #103: Thom  on  07/31  at  03:36 AM

That’s Village talk.  There isn’t such a thing as “religious moderates”

There are plenty of religious moderates. So far, they have either held themselves mostly from the debate, don’t care about the debate, or don’t want to discover a place where they have been pushed or have stepped, where they feel forced to choose between comfortable religious beliefs and scientific realities that may tend to refute or complicate some of those beliefs.

I suspect those moderates will not remain moderate for long if the pressure was put on them to make clear choices, say, if these conflicts sharpened further in tests of law or policy. But they certainly exist. And when they do speak aloud about these things, they sound very much like Mooney and Kirshenbaum do, which, for me, renders them mostly useless as the debate continues.

Comment #104: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  03:37 AM

@Fallsroad
Oh, I didn’t mean that as a criticism or challenge of your comment; I was just trying to make my meaning clear.

Recovering Catholic is a good one.  I’ve been recovering for 10 years now, and I suspect you never fully get away from it.

Comment #105: Thom  on  07/31  at  03:42 AM

@Thom:

I like clear meaning, there is little enough of it in the world. So I thought I should return the favor also, and try to be a bit more precise in my points.

During times of profound stress I readily admit that I sometimes wonder if the once soothing rituals of Catholic service would be of any use to me. Then I recall 4th grade at Little Flower, my one sided, unanswered arguments with a God that makes no sense, and I say “nah.”

I’ve only been inside a church twice since I was 12, when my father died and when my mother passed away. It was startling, especially the first time in 13 years when Dad died. It was held in the same church I attended as part of school, and that was weird in the extreme. Incredible how much of the service I could recite without hesitation after so many years.

Them Catholics, they got that mind-bending fu going on in spades.

Comment #106: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  03:48 AM

By reject, I mean all people should stop believing in that religion.  By validate, I mean that people should feel like they are wiser than the infidels.

I very much agree with fallsroad at 2:32.  I think you can make up any number of questions, nested or not, and you will still come up with the same response.  Which makes me suspicious that I don’t understand what he’s saying…

Thom, your post at 1:52 seemed to imply that I had to answer that science invalidates a claim, and by nature, science would eventually invalidate the claims of all religions.  Then you talked about material and non-material claims.  I do not claim to be perfect, but I think I was doing my best to be responsive to your points.  Now, are you saying that the “show your work” is more important, or at least equally important as the resulting claims made?

They were open-ended rhectorical questions you can take anywheres.

My point still is the same, science and religion don’t conflict.  There is also no implicit statement of value.  Just because I do not view my scientific thinking as conflicting with religious ideas, does not mean that I value religion much, if at all.

Thank you for reading me charitably.

Comment #107: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:51 AM

atheists actually honestly truly believe that religious beliefs are equivalent to magical beliefs.  - Thom (emphasis added)

Well, isn’t that a metaphysical statement right there?

I have no beef with atheists in the same way I have no beef with Christians or Muslims or whomever.  The issue to me is when people start saying that their religious beliefs are scientifically provable and want to introduce their beliefs into the scientific curriculum.  Too often in this supposedly secular nation, Christians have acted as if their beliefs should be considered normative by society and deferred to as such.  It seems to me that the “New Atheists” are picking up this approach.

Anyway, FWIW, (in ref. to Fallsroad), a large swath of the population, including many scientists, are religious moderates.  So it wouldn’t make sense to have a debate and not invite us, would it?

Comment #108: DAS  on  07/31  at  04:05 AM

We could play Apologist Bingo with this thread.

Comment #109: Entomologista  on  07/31  at  04:08 AM

Anyway, FWIW, (in ref. to Fallsroad), a large swath of the population, including many scientists, are religious moderates.  So it wouldn’t make sense to have a debate and not invite us, would it?

There are scientists who hold a wide diversity of religious belief, some moderate, some not. There are agnostics and atheists in science as well.

They should most definitely be part of the conversation. It appears to me many have chosen not to engage the debate, and many of those who have fail to adequately grasp the nature of the more fundamental religious side, and how for them, this is an all or nothing proposition in which moderate steps represent a tiny beginning, not a usable compromise, on the way to an essential theocracy.

Atheists have tried to be clear that scientists who are religious are not inherently objectionable, unless their untestable beliefs inform their scientific work, which would render that work something other than actual science.

My difficulty lies in the fact that some moderates who have engaged the conversation have shown a willingness to concede points about religion that actually deform science, and I think that is going backward, not forward. M&K;, heavily reduced, seem to believe that science must bend itself to fit religious ideas and perceptions about science, and that path leads ultimately to bad science, worse theology, and to ignorance and ruin, because it warps the very apprehension of the nature of material reality, in which all people, religious and not, have to live.

Comment #110: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  04:17 AM

shah8 and DAS, your error is in assuming, first of all, that “God exists” is a reasonable null hypothesis, and second of all, that the “New Atheists” are claiming that atheism is “scientific” (by which I can only assume you mean empirically verifiable.” - grolby

This is the key point, isn’t it?  Absence of evidence against a null hypothesis is evidence of absence for any alternative hypothesis.  That is why certain beliefs are unscientific: if I say “me wearing green” causes “you to feel better” but I cannot even demonstrate a correlation (which itself wouldn’t even imply causation), then I am stuck with the null hypothesis of no relationship ... which is a pretty obvious sort of null hypothesis.

But it isn’t always obvious what the null hypothesis is.  Take for example something from my field (protein structure/dynamics via NMR): suppose you have a protein whose hydrophobic core consists of a beta-sheet with a helix resting on top of the sheet.  Energetically the helix can rest on top of the sheet in one of several positions.  And you have no NMR signals indicating in which position the helix is resting.  What is your null hypothesis?

Arguably the null hypothesis is that since all positions are energetically equal with barriers between them (as best we can tell) on the order of RT, the helix is bouncing around the surface of the beta sheet.  So there is no one preferred conformation of this protein.

However, some very respected scientists would argue that this is not a valid null hypothesis.  That absence of evidence for a particular conformation is not evidence for absence structural order.  Instead they would say that everything we know demonstrates that protein cores are well ordered (which is a very controversial statement, but some eminant people in the field do feel this way) so the null hypothesis should be one of ordering.  Perhaps in fact we calculated the energy of the various alternate conformations wrong (our understanding of protein conformational energy is limited).  But anyway, in order to demonstrate a lack of order, we need to have clear evidence of this lack of order.

And each side of the “the null hypothesis for protein structure is no structure” debate will appeal to the principle of parsimony.

Some would argue theism is not a “reasonable” null hypothesis. Fair enough.  But others would argue that atheism is not reasonable either.  I guess the closest thing to a null hypothesis is agnosticism (which much of the “atheism” espoused in this discussion seems to be, at one level—but the “New Atheists” are rather militant in disclaiming not their doubt in the existance of God but their faith that God doesn’t exist, are they not?, OTOH, from what I know of Dawkins, he’d probably, like the pagan ancients, call me an atheist who somehow thinks he’s a theist), but even that is not a hypothesis, unless one takes it as a curious inversion of Hilbert: we cannot know, we must not know. 

Of course, we cannot know (scientifically) but does that mean we cannot speculate and live by our speculations?  And indeed, to some of us, it is interesting to know where people are coming from and to understand the diversity of belief (pace junk scientist).

Comment #111: DAS  on  07/31  at  04:30 AM

M&K;, heavily reduced, seem to believe that science must bend itself to fit religious ideas and perceptions about science, and that path leads ultimately to bad science, worse theology - Fallsroad

Perhaps (since I am up too late with insomnia) I misread your point about moderates and the debate.  Anyway, this is exactly my problem with ID: that it feels science must bend itself to fit religious ideas.

Anyway, a point was made above that the real problem with a scientific world view is its lack of absolutes.  To have a scientific world view you need to be comfortable with not knowing things (as well as with being able to reason quantitatively as well as qualitatively, although you also need to accept the primacy of evidence over reason: science is ultimately empirical rather than rational—and this discussion, as these discussions often do, has unfortunately tended to conflate empiricism with rationalism).  A lot of people are not comfortable with this: which is why people get so upset about contradictory studies (the problem of scientific reporting, as pointed out above, also doesn’t help).

But it seems to me that chest thumping about “there is no God and those of you who are theists are all anti-scientific and you religious moderates are no different than the fundies” is also a position of not being able to accept the limits of knowledge.

Comment #112: DAS  on  07/31  at  04:37 AM

Fallsroad ... I just noticed two more things:

fail to adequately grasp the nature of the more fundamental religious side, and how for them, this is an all or nothing proposition in which moderate steps represent a tiny beginning, not a usable compromise, on the way to an essential theocracy.

Oh we realize this in spades.  Ever been in the sort of church or synagogue where religious moderates tend to congregate?  The fear of theocracy can be palpable (although unfortunately it isn’t as strong as it should be in certain synagogues due to the support of fundies for Israel) because we know we will be the first to get it in any theocracy as we are the “heretics”.  We just don’t feel comfortable with people who claim we are tantamount to the fundies (whom we fear as much as you do), etc.

Atheists have tried to be clear that scientists who are religious are not inherently objectionable

You must have missed the post-banquet speaker at the 2007(?) Experimental NMR Conference for example.  Of course I should no more lump all atheists together than atheists should lump the moderates with the fundies, but it seems to me that the whole point of the “New Atheism” is to ape the fundies.  I haven’t read the book by M&K;but isn’t their point that atheists shouldn’t by aping fundies?  If the argument here is that atheists are not aping fundies, how is M&K;‘s thesis so controversial?  OTOH, as you have pointed out, it does seem there are some major issues with their approach which even some of us theists wouldn’t like (e.g. their support for the same sorts of science bending that IDiots engage in).

Comment #113: DAS  on  07/31  at  04:47 AM

My claims of positivism are elaborated in the above 3:37 comment.

I think I should also say that “moderate” is a politicized adjective in certain context, and it does not mean moderate in the way normal people do.

Comment #114: shah8  on  07/31  at  04:47 AM

but the “New Atheists” are rather militant in disclaiming not their doubt in the existance of God but their faith that God doesn’t exist, are they not?

No, they are not.

Comment #115: asdf  on  07/31  at  04:49 AM

Some would argue theism is not a “reasonable” null hypothesis. Fair enough.  But others would argue that atheism is not reasonable either.  I guess the closest thing to a null hypothesis is agnosticism

The closest thing to a null hypothesis is “we can’t know for sure”? Pathetic.

No. One side proposes the existence of a being powerful and intelligent enough to create the universe. The other side proposes no such being. Which of these is the null hypothesis? There is one honest answer, and on the other hand there is whatever you will say next.

Comment #116: asdf  on  07/31  at  04:54 AM

OK ... Dawkins does say he merely doubts God exists, but then claims those who believe otherwise actually adopt beliefs that are “sexed up atheism” or are delusional.  That sounds pretty militant to me.

OTOH, pace somewhat my earlier comments about whether atheism is a null hypothesis, Dagobert Runes (certainly no atheist) did once write something to the effect that “it’s interesting that nobody ever felt the need to persecute those who deny the existance of death yet atheism certainly has been persecuted—what does that say about theism being self-evident as some theists have claimed” (of course Runes obviously didn’t write it that way ... that’s not his style!).

Comment #117: DAS  on  07/31  at  04:57 AM

asdf,

Isn’t “all conformations with a given energy are equally likely and, if the barrier between interconversion is on the order of RT, they will all occur, in dynamic equalibrium, in solution” a pretty good null hypothesis?  And yet if you voice this hypothesis amongst some of the most prominant people in the field, they’ll say “look, I helped design the force field you’re using—it has flaws, how do you know that the energies are all equal?” and call you unscientific for making your claim as to what that null hypothesis is.

You need to be very careful with what you say is a null hypothesis.  Null =/= no are not quite the same.  E.g. “no preferred conformation” is NOT (necessarily) a null hypothesis about conformation.  “No God” is not a null hypothesis about God.

Comment #118: DAS  on  07/31  at  05:04 AM

Dawkins does say he merely doubts garden fairies exist, but then claims those who believe otherwise actually adopt beliefs that are “sexed up afaeism” or are delusional.

I don’t see what the big deal is. I guess Dawkins is being a bit of a meanie.

Anyway I wasn’t objecting so much to the charge of militancy, as that’s patently a rhetorical distraction with no meaning. But this charge of “faith that god does not exist” is quite a distortion. Off the top of my head, Penn Jillette deliberately comes close, but still no.

Comment #119: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:05 AM

You need to be very careful with what you say is a null hypothesis.  Null =/= no are not quite the same.  E.g. “no preferred conformation” is NOT (necessarily) a null hypothesis about conformation.  “No God” is not a null hypothesis about God.

The universe exists.

The universe exists because a big man in the sky made it.

One of these will get cut by the razor.

Comment #120: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:08 AM

Anyway, you’ve got plenty of evidence against a god: HIV, hurricanes, and the Holocaust.

What are the popular Jewish answers for this problem of evil and indifference? I do hope they’re more interesting than the tiresome Christian and Buddhist evasions.

Comment #121: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:24 AM

@DAS: We agree far more than we don’t. I suspect my less than precise use of language or a difference in defining terms is all that really separates us here.

“New Atheists” is a stupid but fashionable terms that many of the Framing obsessed delight in using. The only new thing happening with atheism that I can see is that a number of prominent thinkers are getting books published and have created visible profiles on the Web. Their arguments are almost completely not “new,” so the moniker is more about labeling than describing.

Atheists who are strong or even absolute in their personal disbelief are usually not so absolute on the larger question of whether God does or could exist. They are consistently misrepresented in this. Some go overboard, and that doesn’t help matters at all, but M&K;have consistently, deliberately attributed to specific atheists they have named positions they do not hold. They have been corrected over this so chronically that I am left to wonder if the straw man better serves their own agenda and book selling purposes.

Those who cannot escape the label New Atheist are not fundamental in their rejection of the existence of God, in that, as I explained above, they cede science cannot answer that particular question, in fact is not a useful tool to attempt to do so, but that it can test religious claims about the interaction of their Gods and the natural world.

Religion seems to abhor unknowing, unless it speaks of “not knowing the mind of God.” In many other things religion purports to hold answers to things science has not yet been able to definitively describe (if ever, in fact, it can), and some religions have taken it upon themselves to formulate answers for their believers on even the most mundane of things, which is part of the dynamic that has brought it into sharper conflict with science in some public spaces.

My point about moderates was that some have held themselves out of the debate, not been actively excluded. Your comments on why are more illuminating than my own, and I can see how the more fundamental members of various religions can scare moderates with the absolutism of their belief and apparently unassailable rightness. That way, in extremity, lie purges.

Some moderates who have waded in have chosen to side with process, to say that science need make itself more religion friendly (which always seems to equate to distorting itself to suit religion, never the other way round), and the ID zealots have created a vehicle that attempts to do just that, by subverting public policy, science policy, education, and so on. IDers try to appear moderate at all times, but aren’t.

This is not to paint all moderates as such, because that is ridiculous. A number have spoken out eloquently on the base dishonesty of ID and other attempts to codify religion into law, and have tried to separate the nature and function of faith from science altogether. As far as I can tell, and I am interested in this subject but far from expert, those moderates are in the minority of those who have gotten involved publicly, though they generally strike me as eminently reasonable.

My earlier comment about some moderates being useless to me personally in my understanding of these issues referenced those who would have science bend itself to conform to some nebulous religious standard or expressed desire. Further, I find in my reading of M&K;in magazines and all over the Web that they *functionally* are behaving the same way, even while criticizing the more egregious forays of religion into policy and law. To me, they miss the point - that the fundamentalists, who drive much of this in the public space, are not ultimately interested in compromises. They view any ground they gain as one small victory in a war of attrition that they will never stop waging, no matter what they say in the service of short term goals. They will negotiate in the short term, say it is an acceptable compromise, and when that is implemented they will move the goal posts another ten yards, and grind it out.

This is what M&K;fail to fully grasp. These people believe they answer to a higher authority which, they claim, compels them to impose their beliefs on everyone else. They have profoundly politicized religion in a virulent way. M&K;say that having a nicer toned conversation will solve all of the problems. I absolutely disagree. The fundamentalist religious are not interested in process, but results.

I have my personal difficulties with religion and the way it has impacted me in my own life, but I can hold that separate from religion generally, and those in my life who are religious. I recognize that a few atheists cannot or will not do this, and they come off like raging assholes. But those I do admire and mostly agree with don’t fall in that camp, hard as some try to cast them into it.

And now I have stayed up way too late. Crap.

Comment #122: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  05:38 AM

hamletta:

This is a pointless conversation. Shah8, DAS, I applaud you for giving it the ol’ college try, but there’s no arguing with people who will not accept facts.

They take any sort of religious belief as prima facie evidence of stupidity and irrationality.

Amanda, I’m really sorry your local Episcopal parish was sloppy with their catechesis; my Lutheran parish was, too. But your ignorance doesn’t give you the right to tell me what I believe, or to hold me responsible for bullshit 19th Century heresies.

So fuck you in the heart; I’m done.

In a thread that touches on irrationality and stupidity born from personal exceptionalism and an unwillingness to deal maturely with cognitive dissonance, it’s always nice when someone pops up and provides an egregious, concrete example of precisely those phenomena.

Comment #123: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/31  at  05:40 AM

DAS:

I guess the closest thing to a null hypothesis is agnosticism

Agnosticism isn’t a null hypothesis, or a hypothesis of any other kind. It’s a refusal to even engage with the question at all.

You need to be very careful with what you say is a null hypothesis. Null =/= no are not quite the same. E.g. “no preferred conformation” is NOT (necessarily) a null hypothesis about conformation. “No God” is not a null hypothesis about God.

If I understand your explanation properly, you have a set of possible protein configurations and are merely trying to determine which one or ones are preferred. But you’re not trying to determine whether or not the protein you’re studying even exists in the first place.

So it would seem that these are two completely different kinds of questions.

Comment #124: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/31  at  06:39 AM

Hmm, well, I’m probably about to be slammed with the label “religious moderate” here, but I have always defined myself as a religious agnostic. In other words, “god” for me - unless and until the unlikely event that proof of god’s existence were to occur - is just a metaphor for a number of subjective experiences that can likely also be explained scientifically.

For example, if I say that god was present when I was a little girl singing hymns by the river with a group of fellow summer campers, and if it is scientifically the case that the sense of elevated mood and interconnectedness I felt was due to increases in seratonin caused by physical activity and morning exposure to sunlight, I still say god is present and that god is in this case an epiphenomenon of seratonin in my brain. The spiritual expression conveys the power of my subjective experience, which is an extremely useful thing to be able to communicate to and share with others, while the scientific explanation makes clear what the objective reality is. The scientific explanation is the only one that is factual, and the spiritual one has no more truth to it than any other effective metaphor would have.

The reason I still hold the god metaphor as a valid one, though, is that I do believe there is truth in fiction, in the sense that fiction is intended to invoke an immediate and visceral way of sharing experience or knowing a truth, and sometimes it’s the best tool that I have found to use when describing a particular experience to most people.

This is not a position that tends to satisfy anyone on either side of this debate. And while I participate in religious activities from time to time, I find that I cannot affiliate wiht a religious group because inevitably I am called upon to take a factual stance when religion to me is not about facts (though it must be about truth or else it is a waste of time at best and an evil in many cases).

Hmmm .. sorry, just working some of this out in my brain. Biggest concern, though, would be what would be the point of choosing the god metaphor to begin with? Does the value of its resonance and network of associations for many people outweigh the way that the god metaphor has been reified and used to oppress?
.
Wish I was more coherent tonight

Comment #125: Dymphna  on  07/31  at  07:04 AM

I suspect those moderates will not remain moderate for long if the pressure was put on them to make clear choices, say, if these conflicts sharpened further in tests of law or policy. But they certainly exist. And when they do speak aloud about these things, they sound very much like Mooney and Kirshenbaum do, which, for me, renders them mostly useless as the debate continues.

Which is sort of the funny thing about the “New Atheism.” There’s a core of them who have this idea that, “if only we can push those believers into a corner, they’ll finally either give up their religion or expose themselves for the stupid fanatics we know that they really are!”

Agnosticism isn’t a null hypothesis, or a hypothesis of any other kind. It’s a refusal to even engage with the question at all.

Agnosticism is an acceptance of the idea that the question is unknowable.

PZ Myers is a rude, outspoken bastard, but at least he says what he means and strives to tell the truth.

PZ Myers is pretty easily comparable to the engineer who decides he’s going to tell you what global warming is really all about, except that PZ Myers is the biologist who decides he’s going to tell you all about religion.Finally I got bored with him, because I was more interested in reading about biology than read about him attempt to make points better suited to a humanist.

Comment #126: Tyro  on  07/31  at  07:05 AM

Meh, I’m an agnostic, but almost nothing pains me more than seeing atheism or agnosticism equaled with religious ignorance and cultural illiteracy. Modeling all religion on modern fundamentalism is the surest way to actually encourage fundamentalists, because you tell them that their model of religion is the correct and only one, and because you allow only two choices for religious people: either be an atheist of our type, or you’re a fundie anyway. Would you say that to a modern pagan as well?

Equaling belief in god with belief in garden fairies only makes sense if you count with the fundamentalist model of religion. But then, what would you say to Rudolph Bultmann? What would you say to Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Herbert Braun and his “Death of God” theology? What would you say to a buddhist or a taoist who does not necessarily believe in any gods at all? These people describe themselves as religious, yet the factual existence of an objective “god” is irrelevant to them. Religion, in its finest incarnations, isn’t about the Bearded Sky Man (TM) - it’s about a certain anthropology and philosophy. Yes, I do think that i. e. the essence of Christianity can be expressed in the vocabulary of existentialism without much harm, I do not see the need to identify that anthropology as necessarily “religious”. But other people do - why should that make them fundamentalist? 

You may wonder why I feel so strongly about this, when I’m not religious. Well, I’ve done a BA in Comparative Religions and I don’t understand how anyone with a grain of interest in human culture or history can ignore the richness of religious traditions or see them only through a skewed lens of her/his current fight with fundamentalism. Incidentally, fundamentalism as we know it is the child of modern age, of applying positivistic thinking to the mythological language of religion. I fear that in the future, fundamentalism will only spread because there’ll be little place left for other forms of religion in the public discourse. I don’t look forward to it.

Comment #127: Majoranka  on  07/31  at  07:24 AM

Tyro:

Agnosticism isn’t a null hypothesis, or a hypothesis of any other kind. It’s a refusal to even engage with the question at all.

Agnosticism is an acceptance of the idea that the question is unknowable.

I fail to see how that’s any different. Throwing up your hands in defeat is pretty much an admission that you can’t engage with the question, don’t you think?

So, are you also “agnostic” towards space aliens and werewolves, or are those things different in some absolutely crucial but completely unexplained way?

Comment #128: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/31  at  07:53 AM

Religion and science do not conflict.  Without religion, we would not have science, literally.  Both religion and science suffer from bad theology and general narcissic anti-intellectualism.  Believing that religion and science conflicts is pretty dangerous, and I say that as an athiest (but one who knows his religeos and scientific history).
shah8 on 07/30 at 04:00 PM

The argument shah8 started here (which I have not yet had a chance to read through nor will before I have to go to work) relates to why I like Larry Laudan’s philosophy of science so much. It functions as a sort of unified field theory of human cognition, well-grounded in a fundamentally evolutionary perspective.

Laudan developed, in Progress and Its Problems, a resolution of the philosophical debate between the positivist paradigm that science is a technique for converging on actual knowledge of the truths of nature, and the Kuhnian paradigm which ultimately rejects any claim of progress whatsoever since dominant paradigms are social in nature. Actually, we can never prove that we are getting closer to the “truth.” But what we can do is come up with explanations, models of reality, that more or less satisfactorily solve the problems we are concerned with. Put that way, all human mental activity is devoted to solving problems—and science is the enterprise of solving conceptual problems in a framework devoted to this activity itself. Scientific progress is measured, not by how close to the truth we are getting (which we cannot measure) but by how successfully new proposals solve a wider scope of problems while creating a minimum of new ones—thus yielding a metric for progress as opposed to the Kuhnian claim that change in scientific concepts comes down to mere fashion.

Put this way, science is clearly on a continuum with other human mental activity. Furthermore it is clear how concepts such as theological ones could and have more or less legitimately interacted with ideas we today would agree are properly “scientific.” Indeed as shah8 suggests, probably we would not have evolved the framework of modern science without stages where what “science” there was were deeply integrated with what we’d call theology. Because among people who take religious ideas seriously, relating natural phenomena with their metaphysical ideas would be just as legitimate and important as, for example, the modern conundrums within physics posed by trying to relate the quantum paradigm with Einstein’s General Relativity. We haven’t yet figured out how these two very different approaches to what we assume is one unified reality mesh together logically. But that doesn’t stop the same discipline, indeed the same individual researchers, from thinking in terms of both—indeed the quest to unify them is a major motive of research today.

Laudan’s approach avoids any claim of privilege for any school of thought and is evolutionary; people start out with whatever perspectives they have and change their views, or suffer the consequences of refusing to do so, in the pragmatic field. It is straightforward to acknowledge various influences—economic, political—on the development of thought, and indeed that development is a broad-based, democratic one in which all people, not just certified academics in this or that field, are relevant. At the same time it is reality-based—we may never be able to claim absolute knowledge of reality, but we still can and must assume it exists anyway and we deviate from the faithful attempt to understand it at our peril.

Comment #129: Mark Foxwell  on  07/31  at  09:11 AM

The whole idea that people could be insulted/upset with what Amanda said saying that belief is a flaw, is the entire problem with these discussions.

The idea that non-belief/other-belief is a flaw is a core feature of most religions. Why is it good for the goose but not for the gander?

I’m not someone who is straight out dismissive of the “religious experience”...I do think there’s something there (although it’s emotional rather than supernatural), but the other problem with these debates is for that reason I think the definition of “God” is so unique and individual that it’s impossible to avoid strawman arguments. Not that this is a criticism of the “New Atheists”, or any atheist. This is not our fault. If religious communities want to keep talking in tradition and metaphor and never really tackle what they REALLY believe, that’s their own fault if they get offended when we keep on using conventional terms. (God means yes, a materialistic being/entity)

Comment #130: Karmakin  on  07/31  at  09:49 AM

One last thing I want to say about this book is about how it talks up the problem of scientists and communications.  Mooney and Kirshenbaum are big on the idea that more scientists should aspire to be Carl Sagan, and really reach out with TV and writing to a larger audience.  And that’s all well and good—-we should have hundreds of Sagans around—-but I think they’re just a little too quick to assume that the main reason we don’t is that scientists don’t want to do that or don’t have enough training.  That, to my mind, downplays how much writing and communicating are talents, and not as easy as they seem.

The vast majority of successful scientists are outstanding communicators. The problem with this suggestion is that we are too fucking busy doing our fucking science to take on the second job of popularizing science for the general public. Sagan didn’t actually accomplish jack diddly fucking shit as an actual scientist, because he was too busy communicating to the public. If actual scientists are supposed to be all like Sagan, who the fuck is gonna do the actual science?

Frankly, I find the entire book to be one long-winded concern troll of scientists. The fact of the matter is that it ain’t my fucking fault that the majority of American citizens are living in a world of delusional fantasy shit, and there ain’t anything I can do about it. Sheril is an extremely bright person and an excellent writer, and I really don’t understand why she wastes her talents working with Mooney on this kind of drivel.

Comment #131: PhysioProf  on  07/31  at  11:46 AM

The idea that non-belief/other-belief is a flaw is a core feature of most religions. Why is it good for the goose but not for the gander?

Indeed.  In the Judeo-Christian-Islam group of religions there’s been a trend in recent years to gloss over the differences when breaking out the peace and brotherhood shtick, but there has been no change in the basic theology of said religions to back that up.  If you are an honest mainstream believer (and I use that to mean the vast majority of the believers ranging from fundamentalist to the more liberal), then you have to believe that everyone who isn’t following the religions is wrong.

Comment #132: KeithM  on  07/31  at  12:21 PM

I meant everyone not following your religion must be wrong.  And sometimes everyone not following your specific sect.

Comment #133: KeithM  on  07/31  at  12:24 PM

Whoops, got Ceres mixed up with Charon. Not dozens. Still; that’s why I’m not involved in the discussion on what gets to be called a planet.

Charon orbits Pluto, so it wouldn’t qualify.  If we eliminated the dwarf planet classification, presently, we’d add five planets, for a total of thirteen.  In order of size:

Eris (with one satellite)
Pluto (with three satellites)
Haumea (with two satellites)
Makemake
Ceres

Comment #134: James  on  07/31  at  12:32 PM

The universe exists.  [vs] The universe exists because a big man in the sky made it. One of these will get cut by the razor. - asdf

But neither of these is a null hypothesis.  “The universe exists” is an alternative to the hypothesis “the universe does not exist”, which latter hypothesis only a few immaterialists would accept.  One could argue that the proper null hypothesis for which one of the hypotheses is “the universe exists because God created it” is “the universe exists due to a random fluctuation” (and these are not the only two hypotheses).  I fail to see how the principle of parsimony would select one of these hypotheses over the other (or over any number of other explanations).

BTW, Dan, agreed that agnosticism isn’t a null hypothesis.  That’s why I said it was the closest to being one (it was too late for me to think of the random fluctuation hypothesis).

If I understand your explanation properly, you have a set of possible protein configurations and are merely trying to determine which one or ones are preferred. But you’re not trying to determine whether or not the protein you’re studying even exists in the first place. - Dan

Of course the protein we’re studying exists.  The question is whether the notion of a unique conformation for the protein exists.  The point is that absence of evidence is only evidence of absense if you can have a clear null hypothesis (and you also need to know the statistical power of the tests you are using, etc.): in my example, you can never say that the absence of evidence for any particular protein conformation is evidence for an absence of conformation because some wise-guy will always say “but what about [favorite hypothesis]?”.  The situation with the absence of evidence for God is similar.

Actually, IMHO, it’s pretty easy to make the case that there is every reason to remain agnostic about space aliens.  Werewolves ... not so much.

Comment #135: DAS  on  07/31  at  12:33 PM

There is a difference between saying that your reasoning is flawed and that you are flawed for having that reasoning.  Amanda said that theism is like a case of ADD for all intents and purposes.  That is pretty classic dehumanization.

Comment #136: shah8  on  07/31  at  12:45 PM

Sure, but if Religion qua Religion does not conflict with Science qua Science, then there will be NO cases where a particular religion conflicts with science on a matter of fundamental importance to that religion.  And yet, there is.  You claim that science and religion are of different spheres, but this particular religion says as a matter of central dogma that it is empirically true that the earth is 6000 years old.  To get out of this, you’ve got to claim that this religion isn’t a proper religion.

Idunno, I think this may be one case where the No True Scotsman argument holds water. Or rather where qua isn’t a universal. This is a little like the argument over whether capitalism qua capitalism is compatible with decent treatment of workers: finding one capitalist enterprise that does or doesn’t treat its workers well doesn’t really decide the question.

Meanwhile, I’m kind interested by all the yelling about agnosticism. Mostly because I think that a bunch of different agnosticisms are being conflated. What most people seem to think of as agnostic is the contention that we can’t know whether god exists because we haven’t got the right tools, sorta like the perturbation-error arguments about why you can’t simultaneously measure position and momentum. But there are a lot of agnostics who think that you can’t know because the question itself is a category error. It’s like asking if floqrmnifex exists.

Comment #137: paul  on  07/31  at  12:55 PM

I’ve got no problem stipulating that religious belief is irrational, which is why my discussions (as a believer) with atheists/agnostics are normally short and very dissatisfying to them. I read Aquinas in high school. I figured he gave a pretty good shot at rationalizing God, failed, and I’m not going to be able to do any better. And I’m not really offended when Amanda says religious belief is a flaw. Although I don’t necessarily agree with her, it’s such a broad point it could be narrowed down in many ways. When an atheist tells me that my irrational belief in God is harmful to society, I ask them to back that up with proof. Not tenuous “you support institutions that do some bad things” arguments that lead to measuring a balance of all the good and bad things done in the name of religion over the years. No, I want you to demonstrate how my personal belief in transubstantiation has a harmful effect on society. I accept that it seems crazy to you. But if I’ve got the crazy compartmentalized, why do you fucking care? My procrastination negatively affects those around me far more than my belief in transubstantiation.

I have little doubt that my mind is full of maddening contradictions from the perspective of an atheist. But what’s in my mind shouldn’t matter as much as what I do. Freedom of conscience is a good thing. Go ahead and call me flawed, insecure, naive, idiotic, what the hell ever you want. If all you’ve got to support your case is the fact that I believe in God, then you haven’t put forth a very powerful or reasonable case.

Regarding PZ, this is the email I sent to his boss (and cc’d to him) during the controversy.  Maybe it got lost in the deluge. Maybe he dismissed me as an outlier. But this one didn’t get published on his blog.

from   XXXXXXXX   @gmail.com>
to   .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
cc   .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
date   Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:56 PM
subject   PZ Myers vs. The “cracker”
mailed-by   gmail.com
 
hide details 7/11/08
 
 
Reply
 
  Follow up message
Dear President Bruininks:

I am a Catholic writing in defense of Associate Professor Myers. I understand that Bill Donohue has put out the call for Catholics to express their outrage about Myers. I apologize for adding another piece of mail to the pile, but I thought it important to say - I’m Catholic, the Catholic League doesn’t speak for me, and I’m not threatened by Myers “cracker” post. Yes, the post was disdainful and mocking. But that’s a perfectly reasonable response from a non-believer to the story of the stolen host. If anything, Myers was gentle given the potential mischief he could have made with even a cursory outline of the doctrine of transubstantiation.

One of the many problems with the Catholic League is that it does not trust the Catholic community or church to be strong in the face of criticism. We’re not some downtrodden minority that requires vigilant protection from ugly words. While I was uncomfortable reading portions of Myers’ commentary, it would be hypocritical of me to insist that Myers not do something I reserve the right to do myself - make people uncomfortable by pointing out where I think they’re wrong.

Please add my name to the list of those who consider Myers’ comments within the acceptable range for public discourse. And I apologize on behalf of my co-religionists who express themselves in harsher fashion.

Very cordially yours,


XXXXX

Comment #138: vladimir  on  07/31  at  12:56 PM

One could argue that the proper null hypothesis for which one of the hypotheses is “the universe exists because God created it” is “the universe exists due to a random fluctuation” (and these are not the only two hypotheses).  I fail to see how the principle of parsimony would select one of these hypotheses over the other (or over any number of other explanations).

The god hypothesis is incredibly unparsimonious. A god capable of creating a universe would have to be much more complex and less likely to have occurred through random chance than the universe itself. Other explanations, however unsatisfying they are, at least don’t make the problem several orders of magnitude more complicated.

Comment #139: junk science  on  07/31  at  01:00 PM

I see Amanda kicked the liberal theist hornet nest again. Buzz buzz buzz.

“I don’t have anything against atheists, as long as they’re not *flaunting* it in public and pushing it down my throat.”

Comment #140: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  01:11 PM

So what? Moderate believers enable the fundies - there’s no such thing as “reasonable” religious belief, because there’s no rational basis to draw a line between which magic is believable and which isn’t. If religious people are also down with science, all that means is that they are able or willing to compartmentalize those parts of their mental lives, even when they obviously conflict.

And yet, some scientists, great ones, have been religious; e.g. Newton.  You have to simply see that the metaphysical realm has nothing to do with the physical realm.  One requires faith, one does not because it manifests itself.  Science does not require God (nor, honestly, admit of Him) but may be a gift from him. 

In reality, some scientists cling to theories far longer than they should with an almost fervent belief reminiscent of religion.  The earth centric universe and spontaneous generation come to mind.  The fact that a person isn’t religious does not automatically save them from other irrational beliefs.

Science exists in its own sphere and requires it’s own faith; i.e. faith in the scientific method.  When you are working on a hypothesis you must act as if it were true until such time as you find out it is or it isn’t.  But for a time….

Comment #141: Magis  on  07/31  at  01:50 PM

And yet, some scientists, great ones, have been religious; e.g. Newton.

Because they had better reason to be than we do, not because they tried to weasel their way out of it by declaring science had to stay out of religion’s sandbox. It made some sense to believe in a god then, at least more than it does now.

Science exists in its own sphere and requires it’s own faith; i.e. faith in the scientific method.

Equating “faith” in the scientific method with faith in gods is skewing the issue. Real faith is a conviction openly held in defiance of evidence or lack thereof. There’s plenty of reason to “believe in” the scientific method because it has worked over and over. Scientists hold with hypotheses because there’s evidence for them, and some hypotheses have more evidence backing them up than others. God is the only hypothesis held to be absolutely beyond evidence. There’s no meaningful comparison there.

Comment #142: junk science  on  07/31  at  01:58 PM

And yet, some scientists, great ones, have been religious; e.g. Newton.

Argument from authority.

Science exists in its own sphere and requires it’s own faith; i.e. faith in the scientific method.

Equivocation. Trying to invoke the equivalence between two different concepts because they are represented by the same word.

Comment #143: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  02:01 PM

But often a hypothesis does not have evidence.  We are seeking to explain something for which we have no current evidence.  We are speculating. 

What my point was was that acceptance of science is not always a proof against irrationality. 
You’ve seriously never seen scients who yell “heretic” about someone with a new view that isn’t part of the accepted cannon?  Please, you strain my credulity.

Shall we have a conversation of about the dinosaurs and the meteor.

Comment #144: Magis  on  07/31  at  02:21 PM

You’ve seriously never seen scients who yell “heretic” about someone with a new view that isn’t part of the accepted cannon?  Please, you strain my credulity.

You want a succinct description of the difference between science and religion?

Scientists get fame and rewards for overturning the status quo and discovering something that is new, often proving previous scientific consensus to be wrong.

Religions don’t generally reward those who attempt to prove the previous religious consensus was in error.  Traditionally, they kill them.

Comment #145: KeithM  on  07/31  at  02:30 PM

Magis wrote:

And yet, some scientists, great ones, have been religious; e.g. Newton….

To which junk science responded:

Because they had better reason to be than we do, not because they tried to weasel their way out of it by declaring science had to stay out of religion’s sandbox. It made some sense to believe in a god then, at least more than it does now.

Folks like Newton and Boyle certainly didn’t try to weasel their way out of the relationship between religion and science, but neither did they compartmentalize the two (as we do with their work today).  Very broadly speaking, for Newton, science was a way to understand God and God’s creation.  Newton supported the idea that science would bring people closer to God rather than push them away from God.

My point is not that science and religion are never in conflict or that religion was a necessary condition for science, but rather that religion and science have a historically complicated relationship.  The argument that science and religion conflict is a defensible argument, but primarily on philosophical ground.  It’s much harder to make that case on historical grounds.

Comment #146: Linnaeus  on  07/31  at  02:31 PM

Scientists get fame and rewards for overturning the status quo and discovering something that is new, often proving previous scientific consensus to be wrong.

KeithM:

But your not answering the question.  A most pregnant statement by the way.  My question was have you ever heard a body of scientists defend the status quo despite new evidence.  And, refering to your statement, the theory that I was believing until the new person proved it was nonsense, what was that?
Was I acting on faith to believe it?  Anytime we believe in a theory are we actually making a faith-based statement that no one will ever turn it over? 

See Robert T. Bakker, Dinosaur Heresies

Comment #147: Magis  on  07/31  at  02:47 PM

Linnaeus,

I don’t think anyone who has been saying that science and religion are in conflict means that science and religion have not been historically linked, or that there are or have been religious scientists. Quite simply, it means that they rely on two different and oppositional foundations. Science rests on a conditional rational/empirical approach to the observable world, whereas religion just says goddidit (or some variation thereof).

Quite often it has been said that the two are different ways of knowing; that science can’t tell you about love or art, etc. But that’s really not true. Religion has never been self-contained to the realms of metaphysics or philosophy. It’s constantly making claims about the state of the world, not least of which is the claim that there is a supernatural being in control of everything. I defy anyone to name one objective thing that religion has taught us about the world that science couldn’t. Or any knowledge that religion has given us, period.

If religion is simply a different way of knowing, I ask “How does it know”? What method does it use to arrive at these answers? How does it compare them to other possibilities? What basis does it provide to declare something “true”?

Religion doesn’t provide anything. Science may not be able to tell you about morality, but neither can religion. That’s PZ’s and the rest of the “new atheist’s” point. We constantly defer to religion’s claims about itself when there is no basis in reality for them.

Comment #148: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  02:54 PM

Max Planck, who gave us our first glimpse into the sub-atomic world delivered an address in 1937 called “Religion and Naturwissenschaft.”  Here is some commentary about the lecture.

Planck regarded the unity and order of religion as similar to that of science. Hence he regarded these as compatible inasmuch as they are logically separated; they both have the same goal, i.e., “recognition of an omnipotent intellect ruling the universe.” They agree that there is a rational world independent of man, and that the character of this world can not be known directly, but only indirectly recognized or suspected. On the other hand, they do differ; in the case of religion one deals with a personal God, given directly and immediately, whereas in the case of science one has only sense impressions. Thus science enables man to learn; religion requires him to act. Science operates primarily with the intellect, religion with sentiment. Science is objective in thatit is concerned with truth or falsity in the material world; religion is subjective in so far as it deals with values, i.e., what ought or ought not to be-good or evil, noble or base. Yet they both oppose scepticism and dogmatism. In their common, overlapping area, however, they do move toward the same objective-like parallel lines toward the point at infinity. “No matter where and how far we look, nowhere do we find contradiction between religion and science”-there is “complete concordance.”

The argument comes, IMHO, when science asks religion to prove itself according to its system.  When it can’t (by its nature) it yells AHA!  TOLD YA!  There is no basis for discussion at that point.

It is even worse when the anti-intellectuals say things aren’t true because a scientist said them.

Comment #149: Magis  on  07/31  at  03:05 PM

KeithM, Trofim Lysenko killed plenty of scientists who resisted his ideas.  Most scientists, however, do not have state authority to kill people, outside of extremely unethical experimentation in the same way religious authorities have.  There are plenty of notable people who have died trying to overturn orthodoxy, from the effects of a maligned reputation.  Also, most of the people who have really suffered from attempting to overthrow scientific orthodoxy are not very well known, and are only known because some luckier and more privileged fellow read about them.  It’s really interesting to read the history of G Mendel’s discoveries and its context, even if Mendel was certainly no martyr.

Comment #150: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:14 PM

And saying that people are evil and deserve eternal punishment for not believing isn’t dehumanizing.

No..just no.

That said, I do agree that harsh atheist language could theoretically be dehumanizing. But that’s nothing compared to the dehumanizing present in some of the religions we have in our culture.. In any case, the “New Atheists” are just responding using the same language we see used by religionists.

The religionists just don’t like it very much.

Comment #151: Karmakin  on  07/31  at  03:16 PM

Magis, as you can friggin’ read above, you can’t get far with that line in this crowd.  Not that I precisely agree with Max Plank, though.

Comment #152: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:17 PM

No one has tolerance for the “hell” arguments either.  That is besides the point.  We need to have some basic respect for people and their intellectual/emotional lives, and other people’s bad behavior does not sponser our bad behavior.

Comment #153: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:20 PM

Which is sort of the funny thing about the “New Atheism.” There’s a core of them who have this idea that, “if only we can push those believers into a corner, they’ll finally either give up their religion or expose themselves for the stupid fanatics we know that they really are!”

I’ve seen this approach sometimes advocated, and I think it is a mistake. Pushing people who aren’t pushing you is offensive. It is one thing to take on those who seek to subvert secular law and public institutions, it is quite another to try and force potential allies into making choices. My comment was to say that, in extremity, some moderate thinking folk might push back quite hard against those who see themselves the forces of reason if that is where the pressure is originating.

Better to keep the lines open. Moderates being overwhelmed by the more extreme elements of the religion they believe in may choose to push back in that direction instead. Moderates, IMO, are not closet extremists. That kind of belies the notion of “moderate” in the first place.

And to others - I have used the term “religious moderates” a lot. It is not, in my usage, in any way pejorative.

Comment #154: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  03:25 PM

sha8:Huh? The Hell argument is actually pretty mainstream. It shouldn’t be, but I’ve seen no widespread (non anecdotal) reason to believe that people don’t believe in this sort of materialism. Are you saying that people actually don’t believe those type of things?

You know what? If you are, I agree with you. I don’t think that people really believe this stuff. I actually don’t think most religious folks believe in a materialistic god. I think that most religious folks actually believe in and enjoy their community, and that’s fine and dandy.

I just don’t like the “fake it until you make it” culture that comes with that however. I think that the continuing usage of materialistic metaphor and imagery in Christian churches can create a lot of pressure to prove that they are a strong believer (stronger than the person next to them), and that results IMO in a sort of race towards the misogyny and selfishness that we see in so much of modern religion.

I have no problem with the spiritual experience. I have a huge problem with how that spiritual experience is framed.

Comment #155: Karmakin  on  07/31  at  03:40 PM

The argument comes, IMHO, when science asks religion to prove itself according to its system.  When it can’t (by its nature) it yells AHA!  TOLD YA!  There is no basis for discussion at that point.

What other system can we use, then? I know of only one reliable method for arriving at any kind of useful, objective knowledge, and religion ain’t it. Religion can’t “prove” itself by its own system.

Quoting PZ from here:

I mean, religion might well be the only avenue for addressing the question of how many bicycles are being peddled by angels right now, but that’s because it’s an irrelevant question that doesn’t affect our lives or the universe in any way, doesn’t have any way of being answered, and is built around imaginary referents, “angels”, for which we don’t even have evidence of their existence. But if religion is a way of knowing, how do they know what the answer is? What is their methodology? How do they verify their answers? Why is it that every religion, and even every individual within a religion, comes up with different answers?

That’s an example of a trivial question, but the same problems apply to the big questions central to their beliefs. How do we even know that we need redemption from sin? Is sin even a valid concept? They can’t answer these questions in an independently verifiable way.

Comment #156: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  03:42 PM

Besides, we’re not even asking for “proof”. Simple evidence would be a good start, but none has ever been forthcoming.

Comment #157: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  03:45 PM

One of the most interesting writers is Immanuel Kant.  He shattered all of the standard philosophical arguments for God and exorcated organized religion and then turned around and said…

“At some future time we shall show that the moral laws do not merely presuppose the existence of a supreme being, but also, as themselves in a different connection absolutely necessary, justify us in postulating it, though, indeed, only from a practical point of view.”

[...]

“Morality thus leads ineluctably to religion, through which extends itself to the idea of a powerful moral Lawgiver, outside of mankind, for Whose will that is the final end (of creation) which at the same time can and ought to be man’s final end.”

Comment #158: Magis  on  07/31  at  03:49 PM

“Morality thus leads ineluctably to religion, through which extends itself to the idea of a powerful moral Lawgiver, outside of mankind, for Whose will that is the final end (of creation) which at the same time can and ought to be man’s final end.”

Which strikes me as another way of saying: “Is that all there is?” As if the explanations humans seek and discover about their origins and reasons for being will never be satisfactory. There MUST be an overarching, supreme creator of some sort, or humanity and its endeavors are meaningless. And if we cannot discover that Creator empirically, we must manufacture it in order to be whole.

Comment #159: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  03:53 PM

I meant that no one in this discussion forum would have tolerance for the argument that “You believe in X, therefore you’re going to hell.”  It’s abusive.

Comment #160: shah8  on  07/31  at  03:55 PM

Pushing people who aren’t pushing you is offensive.

The best defense is a good offense.

Moderates, IMO, are not closet extremists.

Moderate religious beliefs are based on the same thing as extremist ones: nothing. Nada. Wind. Smoke. It’s only random happenstance that the moderates happen to agree with us. Not exactly a sound basis for an alliance.

Furthermore, the moderates’ defense of religiosity enables the extremists, in the same sense that the continued conservative backlash against people pointing out racist bullshit enables actual white supremacists.

Comment #161: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  03:57 PM

Maybe it would be better to say that science and religion don’t necessarily conflict.  Religion doesn’t have to disappear because of Darwin; the fact that the Earth is billions of years old instead of thousands doesn’t mean Genesis must be discarded.  The fact that some people who call themselves religious insist that Darwin is wrong and Jesus rode dinosaurs doesn’t mean that religion itself is invalid.  There are plenty of “gaps” for God to exist in, more than science will ever close in any of our lifetimes.  At the same time, denying the reproducible facts learned through science because it conflicts with religious dogma is just bullheaded stupidity.  Religion must yield to science whenever science reveals truth.

Some commenters here are very fond of using the no-true-scotsman logical fallacy as a hammer, but not everything is a nail.  Religion qua religion is a much larger concept than any individual religion.  We may believe that all religion is fundamentally irrational and a flaw in those who believe in the supernatural; but to the extent that we cannot disprove their belief through science, it is just as irrational to assert that things we have not yet disproven are nevertheless false.  That is merely the flipside of religious fundamentalism, and it is just as unscientific.  There may not be a “God of the gaps,” but until we fill the gaps we cannot know that there isn’t.  That’s why I call myself an agnostic and a humanist.

Comment #162: liberalrob  on  07/31  at  03:58 PM

Magis,

I don’t know what that’s in answer to, and I’m not up on my Kant=>English translation, but it would seem to me that he is saying that we developed morals first, and later invented religion to explain them. That hardly indicates that religion provides us with moral answers.

Unless he’s saying that the existence of morals is evidence of God, in which case he would be spectacularly wrong.

Comment #163: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  04:00 PM

We may believe that all religion is fundamentally irrational and a flaw in those who believe in the supernatural; but to the extent that we cannot disprove their belief through science, it is just as irrational to assert that things we have not yet disproven are nevertheless false.  That is merely the flipside of religious fundamentalism, and it is just as unscientific.  There may not be a “God of the gaps,” but until we fill the gaps we cannot know that there isn’t.  That’s why I call myself an agnostic and a humanist.

It’s not up to us to disprove their religion. As the ones making the incredible claims, they must provide evidence for them. No one ever does. I don’t have to look under every grain of sand on the beach to know that there isn’t a fairy hiding under one of them. If you believe in sand fairies, it’s up to you to show me one.

Comment #164: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  04:06 PM

Furthermore, the moderates’ defense of religiosity enables the extremists, in the same sense that the continued conservative backlash against people pointing out racist bullshit enables actual white supremacists.

This is a political argument, not one of science vs. religion.  You are probably correct, in a political sense.  In a philosophical sense, not so much.

Comment #165: liberalrob  on  07/31  at  04:09 PM

The best defense is a good offense.

Moderate religious beliefs are based on the same thing as extremist ones: nothing. Nada. Wind. Smoke. It’s only random happenstance that the moderates happen to agree with us. Not exactly a sound basis for an alliance.
Furthermore, the moderates’ defense of religiosity enables the extremists, in the same sense that the continued conservative backlash against people pointing out racist bullshit enables actual white supremacists.

I am an unbeliever.

Thing is, stopping people believing in God who already do is impossible, unless we set up re-education camps and torture them into believing 2+2=5. No real sense in that.

Yes, extremists and moderate believers in the same religion adhere to the same basic tenets, and you find all of them equally baseless. Fine. The difficulty is that people who hold beliefs will, to some extent, express them in their daily lives, to much greater or lesser extents. Hence, “extremists” and “moderates”.

Thing is, we already know we don’t want the extremists to subvert law and policy with their restrictive, noninclusive ideas about morality and anti-science fervor, We also would like to avoid creating more extremists, if at all possible.

In come moderates. These people tend to have a far higher threshold for public activity that stems immediately from their religious beliefs. For many moderates, religion is an integral part of their person and social life, but not the sole driving force in all they do. To that extent, they can often find the behavior of their coreligionists against the rest of society very transgressive, and they find that distasteful. So when they encounter arguments from reasonable non-believers about why we ought to teach evolution in schools without bastardizing up the works with ID, they tend to agree. This can be very useful at school board levels, state legislative levels, even nationally in political terms.

If you believe there is no usable, practical distinction to be made between religious extremists and their moderate counterparts in the way they express and act (or choose not to act) on their religious beliefs in the public sphere, then you should treat all of them identically. I think that means you honestly believe self-described religious moderates are actually extremists in disguise, and I think you are wrong. Some of them may turn out that way under the right circumstances. Demonstrably (see the earlier poster’s letter about PZ Myers), some are not extremists in hiding, and we should find what common ground we can with them in the face of the very real extremism that is having an impact on all of us.

Comment #166: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  04:10 PM

As the ones making the incredible claims, they must provide evidence for them.

Why?

To paraphrase The Matrix, their beliefs do not require you to believe the same as they do.  Nor should your beliefs require them to share yours.  Unless you are asserting that this world isn’t big enough for the two to peacefully coexist.

We are so caught up in viewing everything in absolutes; extremists are just that, extremists.  Not all people of faith are extremists bent on establishing theocracy.

Comment #167: liberalrob  on  07/31  at  04:14 PM

The fact that humans have developed morals doesn’t mean that there’s a god who decides what those morals should be. That’s a fucking ridiculous leap.

Comment #168: asdf  on  07/31  at  04:25 PM

Why?

Because they (and you, and most everyone else) seem to expect me to take them seriously, to say nothing when they try to shape my country and its laws to conform to their beliefs, to not offend when they deny or obstruct equal rights for my fellow citizens who fall subject to their prejudices, or to go along poiltely when they replace science with religion. It’s where push comes to shove, and we’ve been under the gag rule of religion for so long that people think that an atheist speaking up for non-belief is the one who shoved first.

Religious people who practice belief privately and never use religion to interfere in public life? Atheists have no problem with them. Problem is, those people generally don’t exist.

Comment #169: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  04:30 PM

To paraphrase The Matrix, their beliefs do not require you to believe the same as they do.  Nor should your beliefs require them to share yours.  Unless you are asserting that this world isn’t big enough for the two to peacefully coexist.

Christians’ beliefs do require us to believe the same as them. Despite shah8’s delusion of tolerance, every Christian in this thread believes that I will burn in hell for ever and ever, or else they are lying and are not Christian. The entire story of Jesus is that you need Jesus, regardless of whether you agree that you do.

I object to them teaching each other about hell. I object to them teaching their children about hell. They are hurting people. It’s child abuse, and they ought to be answerable to all of society for it.

Those rare few who never ever teach a child about hell, who play the universalist game and insist that Jesus has saved everyone, nevertheless lie to children that there is a god in the sky who hears your prayers. So when god doesn’t answer those prayers, when you get robbed or beaten or raped, god let that happen. And why would god let that happen? You must have done something to deserve it, or else god just doesn’t love you as much as he loves the ones who suffer less.

Now someone will insist that their version of religion teaches none of this, but that too is a lie. It is all the inescapable conclusion of theism. If god exists, then he hates you, hates every single human and animal that ever lived, hates us with a burning rage so powerful we can barely muster the appropriate terror. We would be lucky to die alone and escape his eternal presence.

Comment #170: asdf  on  07/31  at  04:37 PM

Religious people who practice belief privately and never use religion to interfere in public life? Atheists have no problem with them. Problem is, those people generally don’t exist.

As one who believes we have to fight religious interference in public policy and law, I still think you are quite wrong here.

There are many people for whom religion doesn’t play a major role in their attitudes about public life, civil rights, education, and so on. They are, in your parlance, otherwise quite rational outside the confines of their beliefs, and easily keep the two separate. They do not choose to use the public apparatus to enforce their beliefs on anyone.

They also, as a rule tend to be far quieter about these things than their extremists counterparts. Which is a problem for us, and a growing problem for moderates as well, whether they choose to address it or not.

Of course, groups and trends are never static.

Comment #171: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  04:39 PM

asdf:
According to the theory morals are implicit in who we are.  To an extent, they exist a priori.

Well, Kant is at best difficult:

One reviewer said this:

“Kant was of the view that while the existence of God could not be proven, we ought to come to a belief in God’s existence by way of “logical understanding.” Kant concluded that this world was not sufficient in itself, that an external power, which he identified with God, was a regulative necessity; and that God was a requisite for morality, it gives meaning to our life here on earth. The existence of God was, for Kant, but one of three postulates of morality, the other two being freedom of the will, and immortality of the soul. These moral axioms, unprovable as they are, existed for Kant simply because they were the sine qua non of the moral life.”

In essence, Kant is say that while God (by his very Nature) can’t be proven He is strongly implied.  Rather like we “knew” certain elements would exist before we discovered them because they ‘must.’

I could care less whether anyone believes or not.  I do but I do not and will not have anything to do with organized religion.  Religion has no place in secular institutions.  But to say, or imply, that anyone who believes must of necessity be illiberal or incapable of scientific inquiry is bigoted nonsense.

Comment #172: Magis  on  07/31  at  04:40 PM

Religion has no place in secular institutions.  But to say, or imply, that anyone who believes must of necessity be illiberal or incapable of scientific inquiry is bigoted nonsense.

I agree with both of these statements, my complete inability to understand Kant notwithstanding. smile

Comment #173: Fallsroad  on  07/31  at  04:42 PM

According to the theory morals are implicit in who we are.  To an extent, they exist a priori.

And the justification for such a claim? When various societies clearly developed very different morals about who can be killed and when and why?

But to say, or imply, that anyone who believes must of necessity be illiberal or incapable of scientific inquiry is bigoted nonsense.

It’s a long thread and maybe someone said something like that. But I don’t remember it.

Comment #174: asdf  on  07/31  at  04:45 PM

“No one is going anywheres so long as you insist that religion == magical thinking.  You can be critical of many things about religion—like texts, critters, and history (and most actual honest practictioners will grant you that there is quite a bit to be critical about), but you can’t actually be critical of religious thought.”

I most certainly can be critical of any person or group that uses magical thinking to base their view of their world. Religion DOES equal magical thinking. You declaring it’s not doesn’t change that. It is completely unprovable, has no basis in the physical universe, and is subject to the whims of whatever band of decrepit old boys are in charge.

It’s like understanding why no one believes in Zeus, yet believing in Yahweh or the Trinity gets a pass!

Insisting that any of us consider religion not to be magical thinking is asking us to join you in your magical thinking.

Sorry, not going to happen.

Comment #175: LCforevah  on  07/31  at  04:48 PM

Yeah, imprecision sucks.  Yes, I could criticise you about your prediliction for whatever abominable music tastes you have.  However, I can’t do so from any purely rational ground, let alone empirical grounds.  I was talking about critical as in analytical, mostly.

But where I was really going with this is that metaphysical thought in general is completely inaccesible to criticism from empirical grounds, and only through rational means in a limited sense.  David Hume already did his best, which is pretty good, and he was busted from his starting premise.  You can say alot about the attractiveness or not of panenthiesm and modern spirituality or eastern religions, but it’s something that’s completely besides the point of any sort of empirical testing.

Comment #176: shah8  on  07/31  at  04:56 PM

Look people, don’t confuse religious thought with politics, which is ultimately what much of the antagonism is about.  Christianism is ultimately a modern political activity, with very little basis from base religious thought.

Comment #177: shah8  on  07/31  at  04:59 PM

And the justification for such a claim?

And you’re argument against it?  Is it this?  “...various societies clearly developed very different morals about who can be killed and when and why?” 

From whence comes your moral outrage against it? 

Look your argument against God is an old one, Kant had it on his list.

It goes like this…

God is all good,
God is all powerful,
God allows evil in the world,
God, therefore, is either not all good, or, He is not all powerful,
Therefore, God does not exist.

It’s a good logical syllogism but only if you accept the first statement as true.
Now DON’T tell me what ALL Christians believe, because you were way wrong above.

Consider, either God isn’t all good or perhaps God just doesn’t give a shit.  Or, God wants us to go through evil to test us; to see if we’re worthy of immortality, blah, blah, blah.

Comment #178: Magis  on  07/31  at  05:07 PM

That’s bullshit too. The Christian imperialist mission of proselytizing and converting every person on Earth is not a modern political invention, but straight out of the book of Matthew.

Comment #179: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:07 PM

In essence, Kant is say that while God (by his very Nature) can’t be proven He is strongly implied.

So? One doesn’t follow from the other (morals=>god), Kant’s beliefs notwithstanding. I’m certainly not an expert on Kant, but it pretty plainly appears that he already believes in/knows what god is like and is arguing toward that preconceived notion. It’s not like he was able to arrive at the precise simulacrum of the Christian god through pure, blind reason.

Besides, Plato beat him to the puch on the correlation of morals and gods with Euthyphro’s dilemma.

Rather like we “knew” certain elements would exist before we discovered them because they ‘must.’

Not even close to the same thing, which, again, just hilights the difference (and conflict) between science and religion. We already knew of most of the naturally occuring elements. We had mathematical and physical models of how these worked that predicted where we might find other similar things. Similarly, astronomers predicted the locations of planets they couldn’t yet see with telescopes based on the unseen planet’s effects on the orbits of previously known planets. This is not at all like inferring the presence of god based on the existence of morals.

Comment #180: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  05:09 PM

But to say, or imply, that anyone who believes must of necessity be illiberal or incapable of scientific inquiry is bigoted nonsense.

I really don’t think anyone is saying this.

Comment #181: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  05:11 PM

And you’re argument against it?  Is it this?  “...various societies clearly developed very different morals about who can be killed and when and why?”

That’s one. It’s a pretty good one. Another is that there’s not a shred of evidence for Kant’s claim, but he rather pulled it out of his ass because it suited his needs at the time.

It’s a good logical syllogism but only if you accept the first statement as true.

No, you misunderstand me. I don’t care whether god is postulated to be good. If we accept that he is evil and hates us all, that doesn’t change our despair; now we are created by a hateful creature for its amusement at our torment. God, good or evil, is an evil thing to teach children.

Consider, either God isn’t all good or perhaps God just doesn’t give a shit.

Possible, but an evil thing to teach children.

Or, God wants us to go through evil to test us; to see if we’re worthy of immortality, blah, blah, blah.

Also an evil thing to teach children. You get no say in whether you will exist, but you are thrust into a world of suffering for another being’s curiosity. You get to suffer, because you are inferior so you deserve to suffer.

Comment #182: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:13 PM

It’s a good logical syllogism but only if you accept the first statement as true.
Now DON’T tell me what ALL Christians believe, because you were way wrong above.

Consider, either God isn’t all good or perhaps God just doesn’t give a shit.  Or, God wants us to go through evil to test us; to see if we’re worthy of immortality, blah, blah, blah.

I defy you to find christian who believes that god is not all good.

Comment #183: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  05:14 PM

Watching people fumble a basic argument about theodicy makes the baby jesus cry.

Comment #184: shah8  on  07/31  at  05:19 PM

Do better, shah, you fuckup.

Comment #185: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:21 PM

You got an answer for the problem of evil? I’d love to hear it.

Comment #186: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  05:25 PM

I defy you to find christian who believes that god is not all good.

5th Commandment

“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,”

Didn’t God give Job boils?
Didn’t God drown the world?

Wanna find me a Christian who doesn’t believe the above?

In classical religion evil didn’t exist in the Garden of Eden.  When man ate of the fruit of the knowlege of God and Evil he was cast out into the big bad world which had evil in it.  Now it’s up to us to navigate our way through and get back to God. 

There have been a great many people (many of the Founding Fathers) who blieved that God made the universe but then kind of just left it to run on its own.

Comment #187: Magis  on  07/31  at  05:34 PM

This is a political argument, not one of science vs. religion.  You are probably correct, in a political sense.  In a philosophical sense, not so much.

Which means I am correct in the important sense. And am ‘not so much’ in the realm of useless mind wanking.

Comment #188: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  05:37 PM

There have been a great many people (many of the Founding Fathers) who blieved that God made the universe but then kind of just left it to run on its own.

If I had the ability to prevent children from being born with HIV, but chose instead to sit on a fucking cloud and play World of Warcraft, you’d be right to believe that I hate those children.

What a terrible thing to teach children, that they are unwanted and unloved by a being who cared only long enough to cast them into a world of suffering, and then promptly forgot them and tuned out their cries of pain and loneliness.

Comment #189: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:37 PM

Thing is, stopping people believing in God who already do is impossible,

Hint: Nobody is born a believer. And most atheists weren’t atheists in their youth, either. So of course it is possible.

unless we set up re-education camps and torture them into believing 2+2=5. No real sense in that.

More like teaching them that believe 2+2=5 that it equals 4. And maybe we should.

Comment #190: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  05:39 PM

The point of both of those stories is that we are not worthy to judge God or his actions (according to God). By his own standards, and the beliefs of his followers, those actions were good because he performed them; whether punishing the wicked or teaching us a random lesson about our insignificance.

Deists, to the best of my knowledge, believed in a creator that probably resembled the Christian god, but rejected many of Christianity’s tenets.

Comment #191: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  05:42 PM

asdf:

You sound like a kid who asked Jesus for a bicycle when you were 8, didn’t get it and you’re still pissed off.  As a matter of fact, to answer your question, why didn’t he give you a bike?  Why doesn’t God give every kid a bike and a 160 IQ and a gold plated iPod, etc., etc., etc.  Cure AIDS?  Hey, why the fuck let us die at all?  Or ever be cold or hungry or have a teacher yell at us or….

What is it that you want of God, to treat you like a new puppy?  The whole point is that he tried that and we told Him to go fuck Himself.  Evil comes from man and Lucifer, not God the Father (or so they say).

Comment #192: Magis  on  07/31  at  05:47 PM

Oh, it’s possible to pick an individual and make her or him stop believing in god. It’s just a huge waste of time and resources. Much more efficient to speak briefly to many people, and pick off the low hanging fruit. Everyone goes through times of intense doubt. Just hearing about the possibility of no god occasionally is enough to help many of them get away from religion when they begin to feel that their life needs changing.

Current atheist strategies are working fine. Better still is to emulate the social democracies where atheism is rampant: give people community, financial security, free time, and dignity, and they will forget that they ever needed god.

Comment #193: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:48 PM

What is it that you want of God, to treat you like a new puppy?  The whole point is that he tried that and we told Him to go fuck Himself.  Evil comes from man and Lucifer, not God the Father (or so they say).

Oh, is that what they say?

We didn’t tell him jack shit. According to their story, Adam and Eve did, which an all powerful, all knowing god didn’t see coming, even though he created them, and lucifer, and knew the future.

And now this all pwerful being of infinite magnitude is going to punish everyone for all time because two people hurt his fee fees two thousand years ago. Call the whaambulance, as the saying goes.

Comment #194: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  05:56 PM

You sound like a kid who asked Jesus for a bicycle when you were 8, didn’t get it and you’re still pissed off.  As a matter of fact, to answer your question, why didn’t he give you a bike?

More precisely, I was a kid who asked Jesus to stop killing innocent people. I didn’t get that, and I’m right to still be pissed off. You’re wrong to let it go. You should be angry. Angry, at least, until you accept the fact that there is no god to be angry at.

What is it that you want of God, to treat you like a new puppy?  The whole point is that he tried that and we told Him to go fuck Himself.  Evil comes from man and Lucifer, not God the Father (or so they say).

Ah, but that shit never happened. There was no garden of Eden.

But listen to yourself. You mock me for asking that a creator god act like he gives a shit and cares about us. Yet that was supposedly good enough for Adam and Eve, and nobody mocks them. So why mock people now for asking that no infants be born with HIV? You mock because you have nothing else. You have no response except to try to shut down criticism that challenges your faith.

HIV is not evil. Hurricanes are not evil. Cancer is not evil. These things do not happen because humans invite them upon themselves. And if Satan is given free roam of the Earth, then that too is god’s fault, god’s choice, for which he should be held accountable.

Comment #195: asdf  on  07/31  at  05:57 PM

If I bring over my best friend to sleep on your couch, knowing that he is a thief, and he steals all your shit, I’m as responsible as he is. Whatever blame the devil deserves, god shares.

Comment #196: asdf  on  07/31  at  06:02 PM

HIV is not evil. Hurricanes are not evil. Cancer is not evil. These things do not happen because humans invite them upon themselves.

To some extent, wrong on all three.

Hey, it’s you that’s lecturing a non-existent being on how he ought to be.  Either he does and he probably doesn’t give a shit what you think or he doesn’t and you’re arguing with nobody.

So why mock people now for asking that no infants be born with HIV?

You miss the point.  Why does God have to be the goodie provider to exist?

Comment #197: Magis  on  07/31  at  06:06 PM

To some extent, wrong on all three.

So those infants born with HIV asked for it. Now you blame the victim.

Hey, it’s you that’s lecturing a non-existent being on how he ought to be.

No, I’m lecturing you that your beliefs are evil and you are doing a bad thing by sharing them with children.

Obviously god does not exist. But your beliefs hurt people and make them blame themselves for suffering that they were not responsible for.

You miss the point.  Why does God have to be the goodie provider to exist?

Look again. I already said maybe god does exist and is evil. “No, you misunderstand me. I don’t care whether god is postulated to be good,” remember?

The point is that you are preaching an evil god, or you are blaming children for their misery, and either way your beliefs are contemptible, your behavior as well to the extent that you talk about your beliefs.

Comment #198: asdf  on  07/31  at  06:11 PM

The whole point is that he tried that and we told Him to go fuck Himself.  Evil comes from man and Lucifer, not God the Father (or so they say).

Where does it say that Lucifer did anything wrong, in the Bible? It’s not part of the canon. It’s all part of the fanfiction.

Similar with Satan. The snake in the Garden of Eden is clearly an actual snake, not a stand-in for the Devil, because otherwise the punishment given to it is nonsense (the punishment given to Eve is also an interesting topic of discussion, on a feminist website).

So since there is no canonical depiction of the evils of Satan, and all we are left with is the word of the author (who, we should think, is a tad biased) whereas we have direct depictions of Yawheh-God’s monstrous acts of genocide, I would say I would sooner trust the Satanist than the Christian.

Comment #199: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  06:11 PM

You miss the point.  Why does God have to be the goodie provider to exist?

He doesn’t. The problem of evil only apples to deities who claim to be good (as the christian god does). A completely evil god is perfectly consitent with the world as we know it.

Comment #200: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  06:13 PM

adsf, the problem is that shah8 is blind to his own preference, giving religion a special exemption from being considered magical thinking. It’s like using the word metaphysics and not understanding that it is as much a waste of breath as astrology.

Obliquely, I’ve been watching MOVITS! the Swedish Hip Hop Swing group on youtube after they were featured on the Colbert Report, and out of curiosity, googled “church attendance in Sweden” It turns out that only about ten percent of the population attend church, but most everyone gets married and has funerals at the churches they were raised in. So it has become a matter of cultural comfort, and not belief. I like the idea of a stable social anchor without the need for adherence to nonsense.

Comment #201: LCforevah  on  07/31  at  06:23 PM

A completely evil god is perfectly consitent with the world as we know it.

Ia! Ia! Chtulhu ftagh’n!

Comment #202: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  06:25 PM

asdf:

You are quick to make assumptions.  The God you describe is not my God, nor do I preach my God to anyone.

It is not the fault of the child born with AIDS that she has AIDS.  However, it is not the fault of God either but rather the person who had sex with an unsuspecting person knowing that they were HIV positive (or some scenario variation).

You are making a strawGod and then knocking them down.  That fact that the God you describe doesn’t exist doesn’t mean that no God exists.

Let’s, for the sake of philosophical discourse, say that what we call God is actually a race of aliens who designed us in a lab, found a nice planet to drop us off on, and will be back in a million years or so to check on us.  Now, does the fact that the offspring of one of their creations does an evil act make them evil or is the perpetrator of the act responsible for the evil.

Comment #203: Magis  on  07/31  at  06:35 PM

Do better?

ha.

Like I said, watching people completely fuck up on Magis’s introduction of theodicy via Kant is just…disappointing.

You know…if you find out that you don’t have the basic knowlege to actually talk about this in reasonable depth (and I sure as hell am no theologist or philosopher), then perhaps instead of shouting “you fuckup” at your betters, you actually try avail yourself of the plentyful reading material over at wikipedia.  There are tons of well written materials about religion, metaphysic, science, scientific method, and so on…It really wouldn’t hurt to read them—you might even enjoy this enough to grab a real book.

Oh, and people, while you’re there, kindly read the entry on Russell’s teapot so you can point the actual business end of the analogy to your targets.  Same goes with dragon in the basement.  BTW, Carl Sagan is a self-described agnostic, not athiest.

I am just not a fan of ignorant poseurs who adopt the modernity of athiesm without understanding much of anything.

Comment #204: shah8  on  07/31  at  06:36 PM

He doesn’t. The problem of evil only apples to deities who claim to be good (as the christian god does). A completely evil god is perfectly consitent with the world as we know it.

Or….

Non-interventionist.  I created you, gave you a moral sense, you’re on your own.  Have fun, I’ve got other planents to play with now.

Comment #205: Magis  on  07/31  at  06:38 PM

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

This is my favorite short version of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens.

This is only part of the reason I vastly prefer Greek philosophers, sexist though they were, to the Abrahamiac religions. Greek philosophy had already moved beyond tribalism, while the middle east was still mired in it. It wasn’t until the rediscovery of Greek and Roman writers and philosophies that the Enlightenment became possible. Our founding fathers were of the class that got taught Greek, Latin, and the pertaining philosophies. It makes me crazy to hear present day fundamentalists claim that the founding fathers were christians in the same manner that fundies are christians, not knowing at all those men of the upper classes had their beliefs tempered by the Greeks and the Romans.

Comment #206: LCforevah  on  07/31  at  06:41 PM

Now, does the fact that the offspring of one of their creations does an evil act make them evil or is the perpetrator of the act responsible for the evil.

Did the designers know what their creation would do before they created it? If so, then they are responsible for the evil act.

Comment #207: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  06:45 PM

And now you sound like Victor Davis Hanson…

Damn

Comment #208: shah8  on  07/31  at  06:45 PM

The fundamental problem here with M&K;is this: though they claim to be experts in communication, they’re failing miserably at communicating with their intended audience.

Comment #209: BrianX  on  07/31  at  06:48 PM

Or….

Non-interventionist.  I created you, gave you a moral sense, you’re on your own.  Have fun, I’ve got other planents to play with now.

That depends on how much of everything this being created. The environment? Morals themselves? Our tendency or likelyhood to act in accordance with them? Is this being lacking in any knowledge of the future?

You could still nail him for negligence.

Comment #210: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  06:49 PM

Shah8, do you have any actual contributions or responses anymore, or are you just going to spend the rest of the thread flouncing about how poorly read we are, and how it pains you?

Comment #211: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  06:53 PM

shah8: The difference between the theologian and comic book geeks is that at least the comic book geek will not call himself your better because you’re not as educated about the intricacies of his work of fiction.

Well… most of them, anyway.

Comment #212: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  06:56 PM

As for the agnostics: To even entertain doubt on the question is to give it more validity than it warrants. Kinda like how nobody intelligent thinks Lou Dobbs is just doing ‘objective journalism’ by exploring both sides of the birthers ‘controvery’.

Comment #213: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  06:59 PM

Egnu:

If the whole point is an experiment, you don’t mess with the subjects during same.

Or…

God weeps when we do evil but he gave us free will.  If a person with free will does evil whom do we blame? 

Or…

If mother and father create a child are they responsible for every evil act the child does forever?  Perhaps, if they warped him/her sufficiently but some offspring acquire evil on their own.

Finally….

Does God know everything?  Even if He does, does he know the future?  He might know everything but to the present but not know the future because it doesn’t exist yet.  Always the most interesting question.  How could God create free will if he knew in advance some kids would be evil, to wit; did he know Hitler was going to be evil?

Comment #214: Magis  on  07/31  at  07:01 PM

You are quick to make assumptions.  The God you describe is not my God, nor do I preach my God to anyone.

You’re preaching your god right here in this thread.

It is not the fault of the child born with AIDS that she has AIDS.  However, it is not the fault of God either but rather the person who had sex with an unsuspecting person knowing that they were HIV positive (or some scenario variation).

It is God’s fault that HIV exists. It is God’s fault that HIV causes AIDS. It is God’s fault that HIV is transmissible from mother to child. It is God’s fault every time that transmission happens.

If I hear my child crying and I ignore it, and let my child go hungry for a few days, then the child’s suffering is my fault. I have the ability to stop it, and I do not. It is my fault.

God has the ability. Does he not hear our cries?

You are making a strawGod and then knocking them down.  That fact that the God you describe doesn’t exist doesn’t mean that no God exists.

The fact that there is zero evidence for God is what means God does not exist.

But again, that’s not what I’m concerned with. It’s trivially true that God does not exist. It’s not much worth talking about. I’m instead concerned with the morality of the act of belief.

I am not making a strawman of your God. I am asking you to take your own beliefs seriously.

Either God is evil, in which case you preach that children only exist because an evil god created them to revel in their suffering.

Or God is good, in which case people have invited all suffering upon themselves, and you preach the blaming of victims.

These are your only options. In either case, you preach that children are born for the purpose of suffering. You couldn’t invent a better way to teach self-hatred.

Let’s, for the sake of philosophical discourse, say that what we call God is actually a race of aliens who designed us in a lab, found a nice planet to drop us off on, and will be back in a million years or so to check on us.  Now, does the fact that the offspring of one of their creations does an evil act make them evil or is the perpetrator of the act responsible for the evil.

Any aliens would have had to evolved by natural selection. And so they know that evolution by natural selection is just a fancy way of saying “life is suffering.” Then if they choose to create life, they are responsible for the resultant suffering, because they knew it would happen and chose it anyway.

Or….

Non-interventionist.  I created you, gave you a moral sense, you’re on your own.  Have fun, I’ve got other planents to play with now.

So now you preach that God is irresponsible and has no care for us, knew children would slowly starve to death but didn’t care. This is more evil than preaching that suffering just happens for no good reason. The result of your beliefs is for children to grow up feeling unworthy of love.

Comment #215: asdf  on  07/31  at  07:06 PM

I am just not a fan of ignorant poseurs who adopt the modernity of athiesm without understanding much of anything.

Shah, you fuckup, you never show any indication of understanding anything, anyway. I remember years ago you used to contribute something interesting from time to time. Nowadays you are nothing but a troll, and your modus operandi is to turn every thread into a discussion of how smart you are. But it’s always Tell, and never Show.

Go away, or grow up.

Comment #216: asdf  on  07/31  at  07:10 PM

I am sorry, I have kind of lost track of this thread, has someone shared any evidence suggesting that a god is likely to exist yet?

Comment #217: Fatman  on  07/31  at  07:10 PM

Shah8—I have to take issue with your cries that those who don’t see science as a product of religion are historically illiterate.  Your evidence that scientists, especially some famous ones, have been religious is a weak and ahistorical argument at best.  When your culture is so suffused with religion that there is no concept of freedom of conscience, much less atheism (which could get you executed), there is going to be a strong tendency for scientists to a) be religious as a matter of cultural practice (if not actual faith) and b) try to harmonize their discoveries with religion so as not to be accused of heterodoxy or heresy or deprived of their political rights and ability to make a living. There is no way for us to prove in any definitive way what any of these scientists actually thought, we can only make reasonable suppositions based on the evidence left to us. 

In addition, suggesting that the only reason for science was a way for the ancients to test and find the truth behind religious ideas ignores the fact that humans appear to be natural scientists.  For instance, learning how the cosmos worked was also pretty handy for developing navigation techniques, not just enhancing religious myths.  Did scientific inquiry often arise out of religion? Certainly. But it also developed quite independently too.

My hope is that your arguments were merely hyperbole, but I fear you might actually think they are true.

Comment #218: history_mom  on  07/31  at  07:14 PM

Well, it entertains and no more.  Because seriously, all we’re doing is shooting the breeze.  So no, I’m not taking this too seriously anymore.  BlacBloc, I respect you and all that, but pretty much most of your posts, like the one at 2:57, I reacted with some distaste.  There is also just alot of crap being flung about and people are reacting to poorly thought out ideas and putting out their own—massive case of GIGO.

Comment #219: shah8  on  07/31  at  07:14 PM

When we’re done dissecting the depravity of Yahweh-God, maybe we can start demolishing the depraved teachings of his Son: slave morality, self-abasement, turning the other cheek instead of fighting back in the face of oppression, and the rejection of self responsability for our own sins by the scapegoating and sacrifice of another human being in our stead.

Comment #220: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  07:15 PM

If the whole point is an experiment, you don’t mess with the subjects during same.

It is evil to experiment on sentient subjects against their will.

God weeps when we do evil but he gave us free will.  If a person with free will does evil whom do we blame?

This is a nonsense answer. If I stop a man from committing murder, I am not obliterating his free will. If I stood by and watched, mumbling something about the murder’s autonomy, I would be evil. Likewise, such a God is evil.

If mother and father create a child are they responsible for every evil act the child does forever?  Perhaps, if they warped him/her sufficiently but some offspring acquire evil on their own.

If they happen to be walking down the street with their child, and the child starts assaulting another kid right in front of them, and they don’t stop the assault, then yes, they’re responsible. God is everywhere.

Does God know everything?  Even if He does, does he know the future?  He might know everything but to the present but not know the future because it doesn’t exist yet.  Always the most interesting question.  How could God create free will if he knew in advance some kids would be evil, to wit; did he know Hitler was going to be evil?

He could see by 1940 what Hitler was up to. Anyone could.

Comment #221: asdf  on  07/31  at  07:18 PM

There are many people for whom religion doesn’t play a major role in their attitudes about public life, civil rights, education, and so on. They are, in your parlance, otherwise quite rational outside the confines of their beliefs, and easily keep the two separate. They do not choose to use the public apparatus to enforce their beliefs on anyone. - Fallsroad

And there are many people who have very liberal attitudes about public life, civil rights, education and so on that stem from their religious beliefs!

Comment #222: DAS  on  07/31  at  07:18 PM

Well, it entertains and no more.

You mean that you’re entertaining yourself by trolling everyone else.

Comment #223: asdf  on  07/31  at  07:19 PM

Magis,

If the whole point is an experiment, you don’t mess with the subjects during same.

Whose experiment? God’s? What is there god couldn’t know about subjects he created in an environment he also created? The Bible claims he knew everything about us before he even formed us. And if we are some divine experiment? We’ll let’s just say that lab rats very rarely worship their tormentors.

God weeps when we do evil but he gave us free will.  If a person with free will does evil whom do we blame?

We blame god.

Free will is an impossibility when there is an omniscient god. An all knowing god could set up the universe with moral constraints the same as there are physical constraints. That I cannot fly under my own power doesn;t violate free will any more than being unable to harm others does. An all powerful god could also intervene at any moment to prevent harm. I can have all the desire (will) in the world to hurt someone, but having an action thwarted does nothing to prevent my free will. Which says nothing of harm caused by natural agents.

If mother and father create a child are they responsible for every evil act the child does forever?  Perhaps, if they warped him/her sufficiently but some offspring acquire evil on their own.

Parent’s aren’t gods and aren’t “creating” life the same way god claims to. Nor do they know the future.

Does God know everything?  Even if He does, does he know the future?  He might know everything but to the present but not know the future because it doesn’t exist yet.  Always the most interesting question.  How could God create free will if he knew in advance some kids would be evil, to wit; did he know Hitler was going to be evil?

This is where the dramatic difference between science and religion (and why I can’t take religion seriously) really begins to be obvious. When we start to talk about what god “really” knows, we’re in dancing on the head of a pin territory. If we have no objective way to say anything about god’s qualities, then we have nothing to talk about. A god with no discernable qualities is no god at all. It’s certainly not the christian god, who makes very specific claims about himself.

Comment #224: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  07:20 PM

Either God is evil, in which case you preach that children only exist because an evil god created them to revel in their suffering.
Or God is good, in which case people have invited all suffering upon themselves, and you preach the blaming of victims.
These are your only options. In either case, you preach that children are born for the purpose of suffering. You couldn’t invent a better way to teach self-hatred.

Since you’ve decided you know my God, describe him.

They aren’t the only options.  You aren’t paying attention.

Since you don’t believe in God, whom are you really angry at? 

So now you preach that God is irresponsible and has no care for us, knew children would slowly starve to death but didn’t care. This is more evil than preaching that suffering just happens for no good reason. The result of your beliefs is for children to grow up feeling unworthy of love.

Offering a philosophical construct is not preaching.

You obviously don’t get the Non-interventionist model.  Let’s say God gives us life but nothing else.  No heaven, no hell, no lollipops.  Now I’m supposed to be mad at him because everything else didn’t go right thereafter?  Thanks for giving me a car but two years later it got a flat, you bastard.  Why didn’t you tell me something might go wrong with the car.

I know, better we were never created at all than have to live on the vale of tears.  Whatever.

Comment #225: Magis  on  07/31  at  07:21 PM

And there are many people who have very liberal attitudes about public life, civil rights, education and so on that stem from their religious beliefs!

If I told you that the Martians in my cupboard’s teachings were what gave me my progressive attitudes towards public life, civil rights and education, would you gladly accept me as an ally, or would you look over your shoulder just in case they voices in my head told me that next I should stab you in the eye with a fork?

I don’t really care about the *accidental* alignment of my reasoned politics with those of the lunatics.

Comment #226: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  07:23 PM

On the topic of religious moderates:

It is a thorny issue to be sure. On the one hand, you can point to many examples of religious moderates voting and supporting progressive politics BECAUSE of their faith. These instances are easily miscategorized as instances of religious people putting aside or compartmentalizing their religious beliefs in favor of secularism.  And for many religious moderates, it is easier to claim that religion was not the dominant influence on their political stance re: progressive policies—better than getting tarred with the fundie stick!  In general though, we aren’t going to lambast(e) anyone for mixing their religion and politics as long as they vote in ways that agree with us (us being secularists and atheists). 

Obviously, I don’t need to point out the downside of mixing religion and politics, since this blog spends a lot of time covering just this problem.

So are religious moderates allies or enemies?  Who can say, really.  But as an atheist, I’m more than happy to respect their irrational, magical beliefs (because, by definition, that is what they are) as long as space is granted to me to disbelieve them and to be able to be honest about it.  That, and not be expected to walk on eggshells to avoid offending said beliefs simply by questioning or critiquing the effects of those beliefs.

And nothing drives me battier than conflating two definitions of the same word as being exactly equivalent to score rhetorical points.

Believe in the context of atheists= usually means that they have an opinion based on evidence (or lack thereof) that God does not exist.*

Believe in the context of theists= usually means that they have an opinion that God exists based entirely in faith.*

* I’m not an absolutist so I concede that there is some small minority of atheists/theists who do not fit this description.

Comment #227: history_mom  on  07/31  at  07:34 PM

“Finally….

Does God know everything?  Even if He does, does he know the future?  He might know everything but to the present but not know the future because it doesn’t exist yet.  Always the most interesting question.  How could God create free will if he knew in advance some kids would be evil, to wit; did he know Hitler was going to be evil? “

This is an exercise in nonsense. This is all speculation on the same spectrum as arguing about pink unicorns and spaghetti monsters as somethings serious. Every thing you say about the supernatural is entirely made up in the mind of the human, without the slightest bit of proof.

In the twelve thousand years that humankind has engaged in some form of worship, in all the thousands of belief systems that have existed, none have been able to verify one iota of anything supernatural.

Comment #228: LCforevah  on  07/31  at  07:35 PM

BlackBloc:

So start the Atheist Only Progressive Party, no believers allowed, and lemme know how that works out for you.  You’ll obviously have to start your own because there ain’t no such party now.  If you won’t accept a “strage bedfellow” when you are trying to accomplish something politically you won’t get very far. 

Egnu:

If I set a bowl of icecream and a bowl of brussel sprouts in front of a three year old I’m pretty sure which one they are going to choose.  That doesn’t mean I didn’t give them a choice or mean that they didn’t make one.  Thank you for the interesting discussion.  God bless all atheists.  TGIF, gotta go now.

Comment #229: Magis  on  07/31  at  07:36 PM

You obviously don’t get the Non-interventionist model.  Let’s say God gives us life but nothing else.  No heaven, no hell, no lollipops.  Now I’m supposed to be mad at him because everything else didn’t go right thereafter?  Thanks for giving me a car but two years later it got a flat, you bastard.  Why didn’t you tell me something might go wrong with the car.

OK, I’ve been a Deist, too (I’m assuming your god is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, but again, this isn’t the christian god). But what, ultimately, is the point of believeing in such a god? That’s barely stubble, but it’s still not small enough to be missed by Occam’s razor. What does such a god add to or tell you about life, the universe and everything?

Comment #230: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  07:37 PM

history_mom...

Actually, yeah, I’m entirely familiar with the whole no freedom of conscience element.  Athiesm didn’t really get a public face until the early 19th century.  One the other hand Rene Descartes helped convert a monarch to Catholicism (even though he was accused of crypto-athiesm by Blaise Pascal among others).  It’s hard to doubt the sincerity of someone like Joseph Priestley, even when it was hard to figure just how his thinking refused to incorporate Lavoisier’s chemical revolution.  Ah, and while I’m on the topic, this is not an argument from authority, Blackbloc, and I have never argued from authority.  I was saying they were intellectually honest people (for the most part) who fully incorporated religious thought and didn’t become crazy folks. 

As for your second paragraph, history_mom, I submit that systemic and widespread culture of knowlege was a result of how scientific activities interacted with religious activities.  This is really not a controversial position.  It’s also not hyperbole.

and asdf?  What can I say?  It’s not as if I haven’t ever shown you stuff before, and then you deny your eyes…What’s the point?

Comment #231: shah8  on  07/31  at  07:38 PM

Since you’ve decided you know my God, describe him.

He hates you, and you’re scared to admit it.

Since you don’t believe in God, whom are you really angry at?

Believers, obviously. I think I spelled that out pretty clearly.

You obviously don’t get the Non-interventionist model.

Everybody understands the concept, it’s the simplest crap ever. That I reject it as morally irresponsible is not to say I don’t understand it.

Let’s say God gives us life but nothing else.  No heaven, no hell, no lollipops.  Now I’m supposed to be mad at him because everything else didn’t go right thereafter?  Thanks for giving me a car but two years later it got a flat, you bastard.  Why didn’t you tell me something might go wrong with the car.

I know, better we were never created at all than have to live on the vale of tears.  Whatever.

Better we were created in a world without hurricanes or HIV. Even better we were created in a world where all suffering really could be traced to human action. Better still our bodies were physically designed so that rape was not possible. And better yet that children were strong and could defend themselves. Still better if our brains were more predisposed to neurochemical states that produce slightly more community and slightly less war.

All these things were within God’s ability, all these things were deliberately chosen.

God could also have created a world where fire falls from the sky on a daily basis and the rivers run blood. Where immortal predators from our nightmares chase us across a hellscape, and the souls of our forgotten ancestors torture us for neglecting their traditions, ensuring an eternal fascism instead of the opportunity of social progress.

You lazily propose “non-intervention,” forgetting that the creation of the world was itself an intervention, and different physical phenomena were available options.

God chose to create the world with precisely as much suffering as it contains, no more, but also no less.

God could have created the world exactly as it is, with billions of children who starve to death, but with one tiny difference: just one single child fewer could have died of malnutrition. He chose not to, and for this he is unforgivable.

Comment #232: asdf  on  07/31  at  07:38 PM

If I set a bowl of icecream and a bowl of brussel sprouts in front of a three year old I’m pretty sure which one they are going to choose.  That doesn’t mean I didn’t give them a choice or mean that they didn’t make one.  Thank you for the interesting discussion.  God bless all atheists.  TGIF, gotta go now.

I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to prove. Are you saying that god is pretty sure we’re going to choose to do evil, but, “Hey, you never know. Not my fault!”?

How about this: I set a stuffed bear and a loaded gun in front of a toddler. The choice is up to him. I can;t be held responsible for what he chooses.

That said, I’m about to leave work and the computer as well. Hope you all have a good weekend.

Comment #233: Egnu Cledge  on  07/31  at  07:46 PM

btw, for those of you just joining us, the thread is dead.  I call Godwin at asdf‘s 6:18 comment.

Comment #234: shah8  on  07/31  at  07:57 PM

That would be Magis at 06:01 PM, fuckup.

Comment #235: asdf  on  07/31  at  07:59 PM

Shah8:  But viewing it as an interaction between religion and science was not your original argument!

Your first post in this thread:

Without religion, we would not have science, literally

This implies a causal relationship, more so than an interactive relationship under which each can also exist separately.  That is a pretty hyperbolic statement, wouldn’t you agree?

But it’s clear you are not arguing in good faith and that your sole point is to constantly shift the goalposts to say “But what about x,y,z irrelevant and extraordinarily minor point”.

And if you were nearly as historically well-read as you claim, you would realize that the early modern definition of atheism was closer to heterodoxy than non-belief.  For most early modernists the concept of non-belief was literally unthinkable.

Comment #236: history_mom  on  07/31  at  08:02 PM

How convenient to call a thread dead when it is still actively being posted to and you are getting rightly called out.

Comment #237: history_mom  on  07/31  at  08:03 PM

I’m teasing (more like baiting)asdf.

You know what?  A really fast short-hand is probably to read Neal Stephenson’s Anathem.  I don’t mean to move the goal-posts.  We really wouldn’t have science (and scientific methodology) without the motivations and institutions of religion.  Science didn’t come, BANG out of some dude’s head de novo.  It came from various cultural institutions, of which religious were among the most key.

Comment #238: shah8  on  07/31  at  08:28 PM

this is still an exhausted thread, though.

What precisely is early modern?  I was thinking of Percy Bryce Shelley, and his pamphlet doesn’t sound very heterodox, even if Shelley was some kind of pantheist.  I was thinking early 19th century (and very late 18th as well) precisely because of the heterodox sentiments of many atheist thinkers from about th 17th century on…Well, just…in general since the printing press.

Comment #239: shah8  on  07/31  at  08:36 PM

We really wouldn’t have science (and scientific methodology) without the motivations and institutions of religion.  Science didn’t come, BANG out of some dude’s head de novo.  It came from various cultural institutions, of which religious were among the most key.

It’s one thing to point out the historical interactions between science and religion in order to understand how science developed as it did.  It’s quite another to posit that religion was a necessary condition for science.  I don’t see how you can prove the latter.

Comment #240: Linnaeus  on  07/31  at  08:40 PM

What precisely is early modern?

Periodization in history is always a bit of a sticky wicket, but “early modern” is, from most works I’ve seen, defined as the period between roughly 1500 and 1800.

Comment #241: Linnaeus  on  07/31  at  08:42 PM

I’m not sure I can answer that briefly.  I also don’t know what a proof would look like.  I have lots of things I could say, but I don’t know how to say them.

I suppose I could just go down to just this one thing:
While yes, it was important to glorify (whatever that needed to be glorified), the more sophisticated religions taught us to value knowlege for its own sake and understand it in context.


They didn’t do it all the time, and plenty of religions never did, but the goal was often *perspective*.  Yes, people are natural discoverers of knowlege and no one who watches a kid at work thinks otherwise.  However, institutions that provided space and money to *think* were most often some religious avocation or other.  There were great early secular institutions, like the great libraries of the empires that have risen and fallen, but the most democratic distributers of knowlege and frameworks were religious institutions.

Comment #242: shah8  on  07/31  at  08:59 PM

They distributed a whole lotta nonsense and bad outcomes, but they also played an essential role in creating a critical mass of thinking people, who later became more and more free thinking.

Comment #243: shah8  on  07/31  at  09:03 PM

But Shah, part of the reason the religious institutions provided that space was economic—they had the resources and the money to allow their priestly class the ability to live a life of the mind.  Decoupled from this economic link, I don’t think religion is any more necessary for science to exist than any other cultural institution would have been provided sufficient conditions.  I see it more as an accident of history than some inevitable design.  But then, I don’t believe in inevitability (too close to fate for my tastes). I believe in context.

Comment #244: history_mom  on  07/31  at  10:06 PM

“Guests are reminded that Platform One prohibits the use of weapons, teleportation, and religion.”
—-Second episode of the new Dr Who series, “The End of the World.”

Comment #245: Mark Foxwell  on  07/31  at  10:08 PM

Though the thread has been declared dead, I do have a couple of minor notes.

LongHairedWeirdo:  “Fire an electron at a diffraction grid. It behaves in a way that makes sense *only* if you assume it’s acting like a wave, even though it’s a particle.”

A homeschooler I worked with was trying to teach his son Physics.  The son called him with a question and, knowing I had majored in Physics, co-worker asked me if light was a wave or a particle.  I explained that it’s not either one, that in some senses it seems to act like a wave, others like a particle.  That those concepts apply to macro objects but break down at the electron level. 

We pulled out the Physics book I had lent him for this purpose and looked at the relevant pages about experiments such as the diffraction one you gave above.  He nodded and seemed to understand.  Then picked up the phone and said to his son, “nobody knows.”

Facepalm.

Those experiments don’t prove it one way or another because those concepts of particle or wave simply aren’t good enough to describe electrons or light in every way. 

You’re still thinking in macro terms, thinking that the electron definitely is one or the other.  But that’s not true.  It’s not a particle.  It’s not a wave.  It is what it is, an electron. 

Diane:  “There is, theoretically, a great opportunity to foster the ability to handle criticism and critique early on in school, but it never happens (in my experience), because teachers don’t take the time and kids catch on very quickly that they aren’t supposed to actually critique during peer review sessions “

The greatest opportunity is for the teacher herself/himself to be open to critique.  From kindergarten on.  But then that would lead to questioning authority.  Not gonna happen.

Comment #246: oldfeminist  on  07/31  at  11:36 PM

A really fast short-hand is probably to read Neal Stephenson’s Anathem.

All I can respond to that is that you’re not the first to introduce a book of fiction as evidence in the debate. Religionists, however, at least refer to the one they base their beliefs on.

Comment #247: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  11:55 PM

@BlackBloc

More like teaching them that believe 2+2=5 that it equals 4. And maybe we should.

Forced conversions of any type aren’t very useful, and involve considerable violence. It used to be quite fashionable amongst Christians and led to some whole sale slaughters, so I’m not sure it’s a tactic atheists ought to seriously consider.

Comment #248: Fallsroad  on  08/01  at  12:55 AM

Current atheist strategies are working fine. Better still is to emulate the social democracies where atheism is rampant: give people community, financial security, free time, and dignity, and they will forget that they ever needed god.

We aren’t in any disagreement about this. My point had to do with using force to convert people away from a belief in God - not useful at all.

Comment #249: Fallsroad  on  08/01  at  12:57 AM

I don’t really care about people being convinced away from God, as individuals. I just want to neuter religion politically. You only need to attack the infrastructure then. Target right-wing church leaders, imprison or execute them, seize church property, this sort of thing. Like my comrades did in Spain during the Civil War.

A neutered ideology/philosophy purely of the mind, without a mean to affect the real, material world of politics and economy is of no concern to me. It might as well be nonexistent then, just like their God. I’ll content myself with that.

Comment #250: BlackBloc  on  08/01  at  03:20 AM

I just want to neuter religion politically. You only need to attack the infrastructure then. Target right-wing church leaders, imprison or execute them, seize church property, this sort of thing. Like my comrades did in Spain during the Civil War.

I want to believe you say this in some manner of tongue in cheek. Otherwise, you’re calling for a major distortion of liberal politics into something rather totalitarian, ostensibly to fight religious totalitarianism.

Eek!

Comment #251: Fallsroad  on  08/01  at  03:35 AM

But I’m not a liberal. I’m actually on the Left. I’m an anarchist.

Comment #252: BlackBloc  on  08/01  at  03:46 AM

By which I mean, liberalism is center-right bourgeois ideology. You make nice allies most of the time, but I’m not exactly of your tribe.

Comment #253: BlackBloc  on  08/01  at  03:47 AM

But I’m not a liberal. I’m actually on the Left. I’m an anarchist.

By which I mean, liberalism is center-right bourgeois ideology. You make nice allies most of the time, but I’m not exactly of your tribe.

I’m far left of what passes for mainstream liberalism in America. Not a bomb thrower just yet, though. smile

Not sure stringing up those with whom I disagree is where I want to go.

Comment #254: Fallsroad  on  08/01  at  04:51 AM

All I’m going to say on this is that, as a neo-pagan pantheist, when I see people arguing over the existence of God, my first response is to wonder “Which one?”.  A lot of things make much more sense if you remember that Yahweh isn’t omniscient, he’s just a local mountain deity who got waaaay over-extended.

Comment #255: Theadosia  on  08/01  at  07:00 AM

I don’t really care about people being convinced away from God, as individuals. I just want to neuter religion politically. You only need to attack the infrastructure then. Target right-wing church leaders, imprison or execute them, seize church property, this sort of thing. Like my comrades did in Spain during the Civil War.

Well, I didn’t expect this level of scary in this thread. I just have one piece of advice for you: as soon as you accomplish your goals, run for the hills. D’you know who came second after the church and big capitalists in my country? That’s right, the communist-anarchist avantgarde. People who are willing to actually do shit like you described above aren’t very comfortable with anyone being free or critical.

Comment #256: Majoranka  on  08/01  at  01:22 PM

Eh, I guess my previous post wasn’t very clear. I’m from a post-communist country.

Comment #257: Majoranka  on  08/01  at  01:29 PM

Perhaps I am biased due to my own religious beliefs, but I fail to see how the New Atheism is any different than Intelligent Design: both have absolute faith that their beliefs are “scientific” and that their theistic commitments (or antagonism to said commitments) are provable via science.

But the New Atheists don’t have absolutely faith. Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, and the rest have all, independantly, made very clear statements about the evidentiary conditions under which they could be convinced of the existence of God. There’s nothing absolute about that.

On a scale from 1 to 7, 1 being absolute faith in God and 7 being absolute atheism in regards to all possible gods, Dawkins rates himself as a 6. There’s nothing absolute about that.

Indeed, since every New Atheist I’m aware of goes to considerable pains to describe their confidence in the atheist position as strong but not absolute, I’m puzzled as to where you ever got the idea that they had “absolute faith in atheism” at all. You were lied to by their detractors, I think, or else you’re lying to us.

Comment #258: Chet  on  08/01  at  02:29 PM

And yet, some scientists, great ones, have been religious; e.g. Newton.

And some who have loved deeply and truly have nonetheless cheated on and betrayed their lovers. Science and religion are compatible the same way adultery is compatible with marriage.

Comment #259: Chet  on  08/01  at  02:34 PM

Indeed, since every New Atheist I’m aware of goes to considerable pains to describe their confidence in the atheist position as strong but not absolute, I’m puzzled as to where you ever got the idea that they had “absolute faith in atheism” at all.

This absolutist position is the position most often attributed to the so-called “New Atheists” by those who disagree with them or find their tactics uncomfortable. It is done so exactly in order to provoke an equivalency with believers in ID, or extremist religionists as a whole.

Goes a very long way to short-circuiting their arguments. This is not an accident.

Comment #260: Fallsroad  on  08/01  at  02:39 PM

I would argue that there are people who have absolute faith in their atheism, but I think you’ll find that most have a major emotional/irrational undercurrent to their beliefs. “New Atheism”, such as it exists, is relentlessly logical and comes down to “unlikely + unobserved = probably nonexistent”; what makes it “new” is the general idea that religion (and the thought systems that share its dogmatism and messianism) has been by and large harmful to society.

Comment #261: BrianX  on  08/01  at  04:06 PM

@BrianX:

I think what makes “New Atheism” new is the visibility, not an inherent conflict with religion, which atheism has always had as a component (kind of built-in, really). There has been a slew of books, tons of articles, documentary films and many public appearances by the likes of Dawkins, Hitchens, and so on, which may give the appearance that there is a new intellectual or analytical component involved, but reading the works of atheists from before this trend began reveals the thinking is much the same. The “taking on” aspect is a product of visibility, in my mind, not a deliberate strategy of confrontation that has, as a byproduct, higher visibility.

Comment #262: Fallsroad  on  08/01  at  04:12 PM

No, beckabot, I don’t think you are misunderstanding me, and I think your arguments have merit.  I think I *did* take that a bit far, but I only wanted to emphasis much of the interrelatedness between science and religion.  Note, I am not talking about one religion’s attitudes about scientific progress through time.  I am talking about many different religions and sects interacting with many different scientific and philosophical fields.  I am talking about how our capacity for religious thought worked with our capacity for scientific thought.  Moreover, I am saying that religious thought does not make us any less rational or any more human than scientific thought.  You can have rather serious dysfunction either way.

Sorry I snarked, shah8; probably I jumped the gun.  Here’s the reason I did it: I get unbelievably sick of having to listen to people who seem hell-bent on convincing me, not only that everything is connected, but that everything is connected in a way that ought to be obvious to the glance of a casual passerby yet which only they can explain.  I pass over the contradictions implicit in this attitude in silence.  I will point out that though the Obama/birthers provide the clearest illustration of the same sort of mentaility available at present, they are not the only group which exhibits it.

The problem I have with this kind of thinking is not that it’s erroneous in itself, though it is, but that it leads to the state of mind which declilnes (for example) to investigate physics, because everybody knows how physics works: physics works the way Aristotle says.  Or which declines (another example) to investigate economics, because there’s no need ot do that when Karl Marx has got it all down.  Or which decides that religion is a subdivision of magical thinking (everybody knows that), when religion might be something more like a instinct or a design flaw of the human brain, or (is it impossible?) a design feature of the human brain.  Or which persists in the opinion that scientists are scary guys in lab coats who are intent on the creation of human-animal hybrids.  There’s plenty of foolishness to go around, would be my point; nobody is immune to it.  Foolishness is somethng against which one must be always on one’s guard.

Comment #263: bekabot  on  08/01  at  05:05 PM

when religion might be something more like a instinct or a design flaw of the human brain, or (is it impossible?) a design feature of the human brain.

So explain the religious being talked into being atheists, if religion is endemic to the human brain.

Comment #264: Chet  on  08/01  at  05:07 PM

Or which declines (another example) to investigate economics, because there’s no need ot do that when Karl Marx has got it all down.

Hm. What does this mean? Of course Marx is not a scholar of socialist economies. So if someone were to say “there’s no need to study economics, just do what Marx says” then that would be ridiculous, because Marx doesn’t recommend much besides the overthrow of the ruling class. To have any idea of what should come next, you’d have to study economists after Marx. But it depends on what part of economics you want to understand.  If you just want to understand capitalism, then Marx is a brilliant scholar, and there’s nothing revolutionary after him. In that limited sphere, he does have it all down.

Comment #265: asdf  on  08/01  at  05:42 PM

Chet, you’ll enjoy Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer.

Comment #266: asdf  on  08/01  at  05:46 PM

If you just want to understand capitalism, then Marx is a brilliant scholar, and there’s nothing revolutionary after him. In that limited sphere, he does have it all down.
asdf on 08/01 at 12:42 PM

Thanks for this.

Furthermore—I for one had very little interest in “the dismal science” until I discovered Marxist economics. Which I first found clearly explained in Laws of Chaos by Farjoun and Machover, which was back then (the late 1980s) a very recent and cutting-edge reformulation of Marxist political economy on a radical new approach—applying fundamental concepts of statistical mechanics (which I was quite familiar with, being at the time a physics student at Caltech) to the foundations of Marxist analysis.

In other words, science that is on the right track—in Larry Laudan’s sense, is progressive in that it develops broad paradigms that solve problems more effectively than their alternatives—is exciting and stimulates new development.

In contrast, mainstream academic economics is a laughable morass of inconclusive, pointless rhetoric that goes nowhere and does nothing—except for its actual function, which is an apologetic for capitalist society.

Meanwhile, even if we suppose Marx, whom I consider the Newton or Darwin of economics, had surpassed those two role models and single-handedly deduced absolutely correct, complete principles for comprehending all capitalism for as long as it lasts—it would still be interesting and exciting to learn and apply the analysis to current events, as long as we have capitalism. But in fact all the subsequent generations of openly Marxist scholars have innovated and extended the paradigm considerably.

Comment #267: Mark Foxwell  on  08/01  at  06:17 PM

So Mark Foxwell, you wouldn’t read Polyani or Schumacher?

Personally, I think Marx is of limited utility, and his refusal to treat skeptical adversaries with something a little less virulence led to some real cumbersome aspects to his work.

This is not to say that I haven’t read marxist derived works with plenty of relish.  Last one was Mike Davis.

Comment #268: shah8  on  08/01  at  06:49 PM

his refusal to treat skeptical adversaries with something of a little less virulence led to some real cumbersome aspects to his work.

That ought to be your personal mantra every day when you wake up.

Comment #269: asdf  on  08/01  at  07:20 PM

I’m willing to be your enemy, asdf.  At least I’m a better one than Mnemosyne!

Comment #270: shah8  on  08/01  at  07:27 PM

Chet, you’ll enjoy Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer.

I usually barf on reading assignments given in lieu of argument, but I’ll try to remember to keep an eye out.

Comment #271: Chet  on  08/01  at  07:36 PM

I’ll be here all day.  My advice is:

1)  Let it go, and don’t feel as if your face is all important.  I think you are a bad sport, and it begins and ends there.

2)  Many of my posts, I actually go out on the intertubes and check to make sure I’m on the right path, even if I do miss-spell and drop words and neglect pronoun agreement.  When I see a link, say that amazon link to Charles Freeman…I actually go there and read it.  There is a reason I felt that Steve LaBonne did not appreciate what Dr. Freeman was saying—at least of the purposes of the thread.  I put in time (if not quite the care in writing) in what write.  I rarely ever see you do that.  I do try to be responsive to stuff that I thought I could engage, witness my reaction to the people I took seriously.  You wanna be more than another voice in the tubal wilderness, and I am certain also just another voice, then you gotta put more elbow grease in it.

Comment #272: shah8  on  08/01  at  07:37 PM

*sigh* I hate my self-proofing.  Why do I always see this stuff *after* I post?

Comment #273: shah8  on  08/01  at  07:40 PM

I usually barf on reading assignments given in lieu of argument, but I’ll try to remember to keep an eye out.

Oh, I don’t intend to argue with you today. I really don’t have an answer to your question at 04:07. I just thought you’d enjoy Boyer’s treatment of the question. As he is an anthropologist, and I am a codemonkey.

Comment #274: asdf  on  08/01  at  07:40 PM

Shah, I do not and cannot give a shit what you think of me. I don’t know who you are, so I can’t actually care, in any genuine human sense. I think I recall that you are a black guy with a hearing aid who read comic books as a teenager and that is all I know. We have no emotional contact. I wouldn’t wish harm upon you but I wouldn’t know the difference if you were hit by a bus tomorrow. I’d visit you in the hospital if I knew you in person, but I just don’t make those connections online.

Don’t care that I, personally, think you’re a troll. Anticipate instead that I’m probably not the only one, and adjust accordingly. Either quit bragging about your noggin, or learn to ignore me.

Comment #275: asdf  on  08/01  at  07:54 PM
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