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Bamboo Reviews: A Whole Buncha Books About Lady Parts, BAY-BEEZ, and Religious Morons

I’ve been reading a whole bunch of books examining women’s rights versus the surge of religious fundamentalism (that exists in no small part to push back against women’s rights, though all fundies feel like they’re defending tradition and culture), but haven’t had a chance to review them.  So here’s one big post reviewing all three new books out on the topic.

This weekend, I finished Michelle Goldberg’s The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power, and the Future of the World while doing all the hurry up and wait stuff you have to do while flying.  Goldberg takes on the push against women’s rights as a worldwide phenomenon that takes different shapes in different cultures, but has this thread of patriarchy running through it.  Unfortunately, that sort of description is probably the thing that will turn readers off due to a combination of some being uninterested in the global picture and some being allergic to the struggle between cultural relativism and human rights.  But read it anyway—-Goldberg does a remarkable job of bringing the issues to life through old-fashioned journalistic story-telling, and she does a better job of navigating this relativism vs. rights debate than I’ve ever seen.  She—-like myself—-tends to think that sacrificing people’s lives and health in the name of “culture”, as if culture weren’t a dynamic thing subject to change, is the product of ideological blinkers.  But she believes people who do find misogynist religious traditions meaningful, and doesn’t do what I’d do, which is point out how selfish they are to impose on others what they merely choose.

Her book has given me a lot to think about, because she’s right that feminists are somewhat intimidated by absolutist cultural relativists, who traditionally hail from the left, but actually tend to hail more from the right now, even though right wingers who embrace cultural relativism do so only out of convenience and will drop it or embrace it depending strictly on what it gets them.  The main sin of this extremism that Goldberg finds is that it condescendingly assumes that non-Western cultures are static and that only the most conservative members of those cultures get to define their cultures and traditions.  To a degree, this is also done within the U.S., which I’ve experienced plenty with the description of liberal hotbed Austin, TX as somehow not really Texas, which is a way of ceding our entire culture to misogyny, racism, and homophobia, while ignoring that other liberal cultural traditions are also valid.  Fears of Western imperialism are completely valid, but it’s hard to ignore that those fears are being exploited by people who are loyalists not to a nation or a people so much as to the patriarchy, and Goldberg proves this again and again by showing how different patriarchal cultures that usually exist in tension with each other will quickly set aside differences to oppress women.  Since they have this in common, it only seems fair that feminists should support each other as well. 

The recent battle over the excommunication of people who decided to save a 9-year-old Brazilian girl’s life even though she had lost all value as a human in the eyes of the Catholic Church the second she was raped illustrates the issues Goldberg grapples with beautifully.  Right wingers and Catholic apologists love to paint abortion rights as an assault on their religion and culture, but what’s actually going on is that the church is attacking the Brazilian people under the guise of tradition.  And the government and the people are pushing back against their own supposed cultural imperatives imposed by the church.  Goldberg tells stories like this, and stories from people who sincerely feel that women should be sacrificed for tradition, and it’s all very interesting and mostly sympathetic.  She also shatters certain myths about certain cultural practices in interesting ways.  Do you think that Indian sex selection is something driven by poverty more than anything?  Think again—-there’s a correlation between how wealthy people are and how willing they are to use it.  (But this doesn’t mean that people who engage in it don’t have understandable reasons.)  Does female genital mutilation strike you as a gaping cultural difference between those who practice and those who don’t, a difference so large it’s impossible to understand?  Think again—-one of the most interesting things about that chapter is how people’s fears about adolescent female sexuality sound so much like ours.  Goldberg also takes time to explain how best to navigate the territory of being both anti-imperialist and pro-human rights—-don’t try to impose cultural change by fiat, but do support like-minded people across cultures, and don’t condescendingly assume those people aren’t real members of their own society.


Kathryn Joyce stays in the U.S. but dives into an emerging subculture of Christian patriarchy in her book Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement.  It’s interesting, because it shows how new these patriarchal “traditions” actually can be.  Consider that the evangelical Christians who embrace the anti-contraception lifestyle see themselves pushing back against modernity, but actually, their lifestyle really only emerged in the waning decades of the 20th century, after the feminist revolution they reject. I have an interview up with Joyce at RH Reality Check right now, and I highly recommend it, because she does a really great job of explaining how, even though the strongest patriarchs and Quiverfull types do seem like a tiny minority, they exert a strong influence on evangelical culture as a whole.

What I really love about Joyce’s writing is she does a great job of examining what I find most interesting, which is the reasoning and motivation of people who reject feminist innovations that have drifted into common sense.  Contrary to what your anti-choice nuts out there would say, you don’t have to be a radical feminist to think that it might not be the worst idea to avoid having a dozen children and living in a trailer while giving up any hope of teaching the girls to read because you don’t have the time.  And yet the people who engage in this aren’t stupid—-in a sense, it’s the logical result of embracing two ideas that are central to most strains of evangelical Christianity, which are submission to god and the belief that women exist primarily to breed and offer service.  A lot of people get off on the challenge of taking any set of beliefs to their logical conclusion.  That explains the women well enough, and for the men, I think it’s almost too obvious that it feels very powerful to be the ruler of a small kingdom you created.

And last but not least, I also read Jessica Valenti’s book The Purity Myth: How America’s Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women.  It’s written in the same breezy, casual style as her other books, and it’s therefore being treated by right wing nuts as a major threat to their ability to control young women’s sexuality.  Other feminist books that examine the virgin/whore myth are less likely to be picked up by your average teenage girl, but this book is an easy read and personable, and Jessica is good, of course, at relating these concepts to young women’s direct experience.  Her thesis is that the obsession around female “purity” is another way of draining women of any respect as human beings, and locating the source of all moral judgment and character between our legs.  For the college-aged women who make up much of Jessica’s audience, this message has got to be clarifying, especially if they’ve been exposed to conservative women’s propaganda that suggests that all their problems trace back to having sex. 

Just like with Joyce’s Quiverfull, The Purity Myth draws lines between the most outrageous conservative claims (that premarital sex means no one will love you, that you’ll be suicidal and worthless) to more insidious mainstream beliefs (that your “number” matters greatly, that rape victims have it coming if they wear this or go out at that hour).  It’s easy for feminists to tell ourselves that young women ignore it when the IWF shows up at a college campus to tell girls that they need to spend all their time monitoring their sexual desires so they don’t give up too much and forsake their right to be loved.  But the anxieties that the purity pushers exploit are real—-young women are entering a world where there’s a lot of predatory male sexual behavior, and where men of all ages seem to be up in their shit all the time, and to be told that there’s a single path that will not only spare you all this abuse but will bring Prince Charming into your life is very tempting indeed.  But Jessica has a much different vision, a world where women are judged by the content of their characters and not by the penises of their past.  And if the wingnuts are getting bent out of shape about that, it’s because that’s also an appealing message and has the benefit of being truer than that of the purity myth.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:18 AM • (32) Comments

but what’s actually going on is that the church is attacking the Brazilian people under the guise of tradition.

Makes me wonder if these sorts of “values” might have something to do with the rise of the Brazillian Protestant/Pentacostal storefront churches in these parts ... seems like more of them sprout up by the week in the formerly Portugese then Azorean now Brazillian communities near Boston.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  03/30  at  12:52 PM

I’m guilty of occasionally ceding the floor on the ‘cultural traditions’ issue to the right-wingers. As a Quebecois leftie I have had my fill of arguments about national cultures. I understand how not wanting to engage this is detrimental, but really I am completly sick of it. Quebecois and Canadian politics has been about the clash of Quebecois and Anglo-Canadian cultures since before I was born (and it basically ignores a lot of the changing nature of both of these terms, with the emergence of a lot of new immigrant subcultures meshing in within this complex tapestry). Class issues are never on the table anymore.

I also realize this colors my view of other issues out there, like the Palestinian/Israeli issue (if I am sick of nationalism here, I certainly am no less sick of it elsewhere, no matter which side we’re discussing).

My brother is a fascist. A real one, not “I don’t like your politics and as a lefty I will thus call you a fascist as an insult” type fascism. He’s an ‘agnostic’ (i.e. an atheist without conviction) but went back to Catholicism a few years back because, and I quote “It might be a load of bunkum but it’s part of Quebec culture and if we are to have a strong country we’ll need people to be united under our national religion.” Well, then of course he became a pagan because THAT’s been part of our cultural heritage longer, “before Semitic peoples corrupted us”.

So, to paraphrase a fucking nazi, whenever I hear the word ‘culture’ nowadays, I reach for my gun.

Comment #2: BlackBloc  on  03/30  at  01:22 PM


The Purity Myth

I’m glad to see this - it has been my opinion for a long time that ‘pure’ is the most obscene 4 -letter word there is.  The quiverful movement just turns my stomach. 

I worked with a fundy for a few years, and my conclusion was the same as yours - they want their own little kingdom with obedient serfs fulfilling their every command.  His answer to the epidemic of rape was that it was due to the fact that abortion existed - that if we just hunkered down and obeyed, men would stop doing bad things to us.

Years ago, Mary Daly opened my eyes about the ‘but.. but.. it’s their KULTUR!!!11!!? argument, regarding FGM.  I don’t buy that shit at all.

Comment #3: mingo  on  03/30  at  01:30 PM

So are we going to see an unequivocal statement against wearing the hejab by western feminists anytime soon?

Are we going to see an unequivocal rejection of black anti-semitism (as we’ve seen in this forum against black homophobia)?

Hope so. It’s time the left forswore stupid identity politics for good, and aimed its critiques of oppressive power structures and insistence on secular modernity in something like a consistent manner.

Comment #4: wapsie  on  03/30  at  01:38 PM

So are we going to see an unequivocal statement against wearing the hejab by western feminists anytime soon?

Probably the same day we see an unequivocal statement about high heels, lipstick and push-up bras.

Comment #5: BlackBloc  on  03/30  at  01:57 PM

Whatever, wapsie.  That sort of dumbing own and refusing to see the complexity of the issue is exactly the sort of thing that I find repugnant from any side, both the cultural relativists who condescendingly embrace the most right wing nonsense and from gotcha imperialists who stare at the way that other cultures oppress women while ignoring the problems in our own.  Instead of routine condemnation, I argue instead that we actually try to understand the issues.  Instead of demonizing, think strategically.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  01:57 PM

And I recommend Goldberg’s book to see how it’s done.  The section on sex selection in India was particularly eye-opening. Condemnation is pointless, because the people actually make sense when they explain their thinking, and I personally would find it hard to avoid the practice if I were in their shoes.  But supporting it out of cultural relativism also doesn’t make much sense—-if preserving their culture is your goal, you’re better off wanting the culture not to fall apart as it becomes demographically lopsided.  Wagging your finger about devaluing women is tone deaf, especially as some people justify it by pointing out that bringing a girl into their culture isn’t necessarily so great for girls either. Projecting “pro-life” values makes no sense when they contextualize abortion much differently. The only thing to do is actually to try to understand the situation and support people who, because they understand the culture better than an outsider could, are coming up with ways to stop the cycle of excessive dowries and an overemphasis on male heirs.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  02:04 PM

wapsie—seriously? You’re going to insist that women who have been raised to believe that a certain part of their body is private and have never left the house with it exposed now MUST be shown that part of themselves to strangers or else they aren’t good feminists? How does that make you different from “show me your tits” progressive males who bully women who don’t want to sleep with them that they’re
“just inhibited?”

Comment #8: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/30  at  02:08 PM

I’m also a tad offended by this ridiculous idea that there is a special ‘black anti-semitism’ which is special, and separate from ‘white anti-semitism’...

Comment #9: BlackBloc  on  03/30  at  02:38 PM

Waspie - you are an absolutist troll, secular modernist or not.  Many Muslim women wear the hijab out of personal conviction and for a variety of other reasons, and many Muslim feminists (yes, even those who wear the hijab themselves) condemn forcing women to wear it.  It is a straw issue - FGM is enforced on young girls who have no choice or say in the matter, and I hardly know of any western feminist thinker or activist worth her salt who supports it on the grounds of “cultural relativism”, and I have been involved in this issue for over 25 years - and I think this (and the whole hijab/veil issue) is often brought up as a charge without any evidence just to smear those of us who wish to have a dialogue of equals with other women around the world.  It is also a “veil” for you and other so-called secular modernists to hide behind your prejudice, bigotry and misogyny against Muslims and Arabs, which makes me question your commitment to and respect for women’s rights in general. You want western feminists to deny any agency to Muslim women (telling them what they should or should not wear), just as the fundies want to do, here and in Muslim countries?!  Your views give aid and comfort to our right-wing imperialists and fundie kooks advocating permanent war against the Islamic regions of the world, and fodder to the religious reactionaries and bankrupt, corrupt elites in those countries.  If that is what your secular modernity means in practice, you can shove it.

Comment #10: Kathy  on  03/30  at  02:43 PM

I see sex selection as an ultimately self-limiting problem:  a society where males are selected over females because families are paid to take women will destabilize or even flip if the number of available brides is greatly reduced.

Harsh logic, sure.  But I doubt that many who are so inclined to gender select are thinking forward enough to a day when that lovely son of theirs cannot get married.

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  03/30  at  02:52 PM

BlackBloc—me too… I wasn’t really capable of articulating what offended me about it.

Comment #12: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/30  at  02:53 PM

Waspie, do you wear any clothing at all?

If so, why?

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  03/30  at  02:54 PM

Ms Kate—I remember reading an article about that a couple of years ago. I guess sex selection has been going on long enough now that the sons of the people who sex-selected are having a hard time finding mates, to the point where the article rather delicately described a “reverse dowry” (iow, purchasing women rather than selling them. Hooray capitalism!) I remember reading a line from a couple who was planning on having kids who was vaguely aware of the problem, and one of them said something like “well, naturally sex selection is ultimately harming our culture, but *we* would still like to have a boy.”

It sort of reminded me about all of the people who are oh-so-concerned about global warming, but still deserve that SUV themselves. smile

Comment #14: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/30  at  02:56 PM

Amanda, I just pre-ordered her book on Amazon, and thank you so much for writing about it.  What an amazing coincidence for me.  I just attended a fundraiser for Women for Afghan Women, which included a very interesting film by Kathleen Foster about the history of women in Afghanistan.  This all got muddled up with our occupation, and a big debate broke out regarding whether we can just pull out and allow the large possibility of The Taliban coming back to power.  Tariq Ali who I recently went to see speak, says that we do need to leave and quickly, but also that the UN needs to ensure that a strong coalition government is in place so that this does not happen.  What an argument I had with a male vet for peace over my “patriarchy” in refusing to accept Taliban control.  This book is exactly what I want to read!

Comment #15: Lady Vader  on  03/30  at  03:26 PM

Mighty, I think that’s why I found it so sympathetic.  Every time I or Atrios writes about the problems of the car culture, we get swamped by accusations that we’re not understanding that some people need cars.  Of course we are, but that doesn’t make it not a problem.  Realistically, the two situations are parallel.  Putting all the pressure on individuals to fuck themselves royally in hopes that it will change the situation is pissing in the wind—-it has to be structural change, or it won’t change.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  03:35 PM

Amanda: I tend to think of it as counter-productive to allow the inevitable disaster to dictate a meaningful change in culture (no girls, no oil, etc) because it seems like rather than take a sensible solution (stop sex selection, invest in energy-efficient vehicles), we tend to look for ways in which capitalism/show-off belligerence will commodify the problem rather than resolve it. Instead of working to end a culture where women are devalued, people simply purchase women for their sons to marry—creating a means by which owning a woman is a status symbol and proof of your ability to provide a rare resource. (Not to mention the myriad of problems this has created in India and China with kidnappings). Rather than declare that we need energy efficiency and affordable, dignified public transit for Americans, we fetishize the solutions so that energy consciousness becomes a status symbol, or defiance of the problem (continuing to fill up your Hummer and drive a hundred little errands a day in them despite gas reaching $4 a gallon to prove that you can afford to do so).

Angrymob has gotten it in his head that he wants one of the new Tesla sedans—fully electric, despite the fact we don’t have a garage to charge it in. But seeing the pricetag at $50K/car quickly put the kibosh on those plans. It would be nice if you could get a hybrid/plug-in hybrid/electric car for less than $20K.

Comment #17: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/30  at  04:10 PM

I agree that sex selection for males is a problem that will eventually correct itself.  I know it seems really harsh, but on a personal level, it’s probably better that a girl not be born to parents who will always resent her very existence.  Also, sex selection for males is most common in places that face extreme over-population.  Women are the more limiting factor in reproduction, so it could also help to slow population growth.  I wish that sex selection didn’t exist either way, but in general I don’t think it’s a good idea to force people to have children they don’t want, even if their reason is just that they have the wrong genitals.  I guess my point is that we shouldn’t have laws forbidding sex selection.  The only way to stop it from happening is to overhaul cultures to actually value women.

Comment #18: bananacat  on  03/30  at  05:19 PM

The concept of an absolutist relativist kinda blows my mind.

Comment #19: atheist  on  03/30  at  07:32 PM

Hahahaha, and yet you do meet them.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  08:42 PM

Mighty Ponygirl:

There’s also a strain of thought that says simply easing those contradictions allows the screwed-up structure to persist far longer and to do more damage—if everyone gets a prius, it just takes the pressure off redesigning suburbs for mass transit or pure electric cars or a rebirth of urbanism or whatever else your millennial solution is. Whereas if you hasten the crash there might still be some oil in the ground for things oil really is useful for. I’m not sure I buy it, but it’s not a completely crazy or even callous argument.

I wonder, for example, if we hadn’t had the New Deal, whether we would have gone the postwar route of so many other industrialized countries into democratic socialism. Damn early adopters…

Comment #21: paul  on  03/30  at  08:43 PM

“Women are the more limiting factor in reproduction, so it could also help to slow population growth.”

I remember seeing a national geographic special on polyandry and I think this was the way they explained it.  Maybe that’s the solution.  I wonder if culture is that flexible.

Comment #22: semi_factual  on  03/30  at  08:44 PM

Good point, Mighty.  It seems to me that the best solution, and this comes from some of the things that people Goldberg interviewed, would be to enforce the laws against dowries.  It’s not true that something like that is impossible.  The VAWA shows that there are totally ways to tackle problems that seemed too private and ingrained to be tackled, for instance.

catgirl, I’m not sure it will correct itself when it’s actually been a problem since they started measuring it.  Yes, the current favorite way to get rid of girls is abortion, but in the past it’s been infanticide or neglect.  The result is roughly the same—-if anything, abortion is probably an improvement over past methods.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  08:46 PM

His answer to the epidemic of rape was that it was due to the fact that abortion existed - that if we just hunkered down and obeyed, men would stop doing bad things to us.

These would be the same men who in another thread here are supposed to be logical and the moral leaders of the family?

Comment #24: annejumps  on  03/30  at  09:45 PM

paul—If I believed that the people who were driving their Hummers singing “America Fuck Yeah” were conscientiously attempting to hasten a crash in order to bring about a tipping point in society, then maybe we could debate that point ... but I don’t see it. There are people who are clueless, there are people who are assholes, there are good people who want to live conscientiously. Already people are forgetting that gas was $4/gallon a year ago and back to their old driving habits. The good people are divided into the people who can afford to, and the people who would like to be able to but can’t afford to. We’ve looked into all sorts of renewable-energy solutions for our house—we’re practically right on top of one of the country’s major Geo-Thermal lines, but we simply can’t afford the 25K to install, especially when they’re not sure if the “free heat” it will provide will be much above 50F. We can’t afford 25K for a car that’s only going to drop in value and could be completely totaled by one asshole drunk who thinks he’s good to drive home. We’ve looked into bus routes for commuting and carpools. Nada.

Energy efficiency/zero emissions beyond R-taping your ducts and putting plastic seals on your windows is a luxury for the rich and I don’t really see that changing, even with gas climbing back up over $2/gallon. People felt it, and there was no end to the crabbing and moaning, but the second gas was down to $1.50 all was forgiven. There’s no way this country is deliberately hastening peak oil so that we “don’t have excuses” when it comes time to resolve the problem. We’re just being dicks.

Count me as a “stitch in time” type, though.

Comment #25: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/31  at  12:24 AM

Troll/hacker on aisle seven…

Comment #26: Rebecca  on  03/31  at  01:28 AM

“He’s an ‘agnostic’ (i.e. an atheist without conviction)...”

Hi. I’m an agnostic atheist. That is not what agnostic means. Agnostic/gnostic describes knowledge (can god’s existence be truly known?), while theist/atheist describes faith and belief (do I believe in God/a god/gods?). They aren’t mutually exclusive, or part of a sliding scale; people can be of any combination of the two:

Gnostic atheist—I don’t believe in any gods, and I know for sure they do not exist (average person’s idea of “an atheist”)
Agnostic atheist—I don’t believe in any gods, but it is impossible to know for sure that they do not exist (average person’s idea of “an agnostic”)
Gnostic theist—I believe in a/some god(s), and I know for sure they exist
Agnostic theist—I believe a/some god(s) exist, but it is impossible to know for sure that they exist. Possibly, I’m also unsure of which ones I believe exist.

I don’t believe in unicorns, either, but I don’t claim to have absolute knowledge that they do not exist. I don’t think this means I lack conviction when it comes to unicorns, though. I believe very strongly that unicorns do not exist. I just think it would be foolish for me to run around saying I know for sure they aren’t real. While there isn’t a lot of evidence for the existence of unicorns, it’s nearly impossible to prove that something does not exist. It gets even harder when you’re talking about an abstract concept like “god”, because everyone has a different definition. In order to disprove god, we would first have to come up with a standard definition, and then we would have to scour the entire universe to prove that nothing fitting that definition exists, and even then we would have to entertain the possibility that ‘god’ exists somewhere we can’t go or see or even comprehend (I thought Flatland had a really cool take on this concept, but then I’m a math nerd). Frankly, this is too much effort for me. I already don’t believe in god, so even if I had the infinite resources required to disprove god, what would the point be? I’d just be pissing on other people’s parades! I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with theism. It helps a lot of people in a lot of ways, and though its often used to oppress others, I think the root cause of the oppression is the people, not the religion.

TL;DR: I’m really tired of people implying that my stance on religion is somehow less-than. :(

Anyway, these books are definitely on my summer reading list. Your post really is appreciated—it’s just that I’m a newbie feminist still, and don’t have a lot of intelligent things to say about it yet. I’m still in sponge mode. smile

Comment #27: purplecrackers  on  03/31  at  02:46 AM

responding to “concept of absolutist relativist blows my mind”

Hahahaha, and yet you do meet them.

Amanda Marcotte on 03/30

You know what, now that I think on it more, you actually do meet them. I should not have been so jokey, sorry about that. Though, honestly, the concept is pretty fricking weird.

Thanks for the link to Goldberg’s book, that sounds really fascinating. I love to hear about anything global, and I would benefit from reading more about feminism. I especially fascinated by what you describe as Goldberg’s strategy of coming to understand even very misogynist cultural traditions “from the inside” as it were, so that they are seen to have internal consistency, and yet continually insisting to the reader that culture, being a created thing, can and should be re-evaluated, so that it can become in tune with women’s rights, and human rights.

As Blackbloc described, culture conflict can be an enormous pain in the ass, but I really think that people’s attempts to ignore culture will only mean that they will fail to understand the people around them. Humans need culture, and we constantly (re)create culture.

Blackbloc, if you shot culture, she would go through a long theatrical pantomime where she very movingly died. And then her followers would show up and give her a long tearful burial, complete with marches, hair-tearing, and grief-stricken lovers jumping down into the grave after her. She would slip away backstage during all of this, and be carried back on by her followers, each wearing a lotus flower in their lapel. They would place her on the stage with an air of great ceremony, and she would then be reborn, with a blast of horns followed by the kettledrums and strings, culminating in a triumphal march around the stage where everyone threw up their hats and jumped for joy. It would be only at this point that you would notice that your wallet had been stolen. This is how culture rolls.

Comment #28: atheist  on  03/31  at  07:22 AM

zyzzyvette, welcome to Pandagon. I think you’ll find that there are folks here from many different walks of life who are interested in feminism and liberalism and related things. So it’s a good place to be for someone who is interested in feminism but feels like a newbie. I have especially liked how Amanda and the other bloggers will tie feminism to popular culture and other issues which would not seem to be related at first look. Amanda has good research on the anti-abortion movement and how it is actually constituted as opposed to how it presents itself.

One word of warning: the discussions about atheism, religion and agnosticism can go on for days.

Comment #29: atheist  on  03/31  at  07:44 AM

I DID say ‘agnostic’ (notice the quotes). This was my attempt to show that he was using the common trope of certain cowardly people who think of agnosticism as a compromise of sort between atheism and theism, instead of a different thing entirely. You can be an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist… agnosticism only meaning you do not think God or its existence is *knowable*, which is unrelated to whether you believe or not.

Comment #30: BlackBloc  on  03/31  at  09:48 AM

In other words, zyzzyvette, if you can use the term ‘agnostic atheist’ to describe your own beliefs then you were not the sort of ‘agnostic’ my brother was. My brother was an agnostic atheist but used the term ‘agnostic’ because he was chickenshit about using ‘atheist’ at all, because *I’m* the atheist and I’m doubleplusungood because I don’t compromise my beliefs and make religionists feel like their pet beliefs are special and can escape scrutiny. Also, he did convert to beliefs that he explicitly said were false because he believes the existence of organized religion (whether his previous Catholicism or his anti-semitism fueled conversion to paganism) is necessary to keep the rabble in line. And he says this without irony. That’s his sincerely held beliefs. It doesn’t matter if something is true or not, as long as enough people believe in it and are united by it, and anyone (i.e. me) who is anti-clerical or questions blind patriotism is a traitor to the Quebecois nation.

(Have I told you that the annual family meeting at Xmas is ‘interesting’, in the ancient Chinese curse meaning of the word? I’ve done the occasional street fight against shaved head fascists and there’s one in my family, and typically a fist fight is not something that other family members are comfortable with during the holidays so we have to be… agreeable to each other. Barf. The only silver lining is that his worship of family means he thinks I’m off limit when it comes to ‘bashing commies’. Of course, he did say if I ever came anywhere near his home with a *boyfriend* instead of a girl he’d kick his ass… not mine of course, since I’m “family”, even if he knows my… proclivities. Fascism… what a schizophrenic little piece of crap politics.)

Comment #31: BlackBloc  on  03/31  at  11:04 AM
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