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Bamboo Reviews: American Fascists

It’s interesting reading this item (hat tip) after reading Chris Hedges’ book American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.

A roomful of academics erupted in angry boos Tuesday morning after political analyst Michael Barone said journalists trashed Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republicans’ vice presidential nominee, because “she did not abort her Down syndrome baby.”....

“The liberal media attacked Sarah Palin because she did not abort her Down syndrome baby,” Barone said, according to accounts by attendees. “They wanted her to kill that child. ... I’m talking about my media colleagues with whom I’ve worked for 35 years.”


Because the one thing that Hedges hammers at over and over to his presumably liberal (and religious, but I’ll get back to that in a moment) audience is that the religious right is not interested in a dialogue, but only bent on destruction.  Now, Barone is not religious, but for whatever reason, he’s hitching his wagon to Sarah Palin, a divisive figure that will, if all goes well, create a permanent rift between the religious right that thinks they own the Republican party and the elitists who don’t enjoy Bible-thumping and call themselves “fiscal conservatives”.  (As Hedges points out, repeatedly, we outsiders are making a big mistake if we think the wealthy and the Bible-thumpers are mutually exclusive groups—-the money flowing into think tanks and the organizations dedicated to movement conservatism are funded in no small part by millionaires and billionaires who are idiot savants that are good at making money, but not good at thoughtful religious and drawn to fundamentalism.  You know, like the Palins, who are millionaires, despite their “hillbilly” reputation.)  As such, Barone is on board with spreading lies that function only to make liberals look like absolute monsters.  This “joke” is startling not just because of the content, but because it’s so forcefully untrue.  Even Andrew Sullivan, who was obsessed with trying to prove that Palin’s 5 children indicates something funny about her,* didn’t—-as far as I know—-suggest that there is some mandate to abort pregnancies when you discover the fetus has Down’s syndrome.

No, the so-called liberal media didn’t have a problem with Palin’s choice.  Nor, as far as I can tell, did the actual liberal media.  In fact, I think the universal consensus what that she seems to have made the right choice for herself and her family, and that it’s good that Trig has a loving family with the means to support him.  I’m sure wingnuts were waiting for someone to say something nasty, so they could pounce on it, but when that didn’t happen, they didn’t skip a beat and moved right in to pretending that it did.  They aren’t constrained by reality like the rest of us.  By any means necessary seems to be the credo. If Barone was really not someone to say stuff like this beforehand, as Steven Benen says, then that’s a chilling thought indeed.

What do people who are dedicated to an open society do when faced with an internal group that wants to shut down an open society because of their religious beliefs?  That’s the question that Chris Hedges builds his examination of the religious right around.  After researching the loose confederation of liberal-hating fundamentalists that constitute the religious right, Hedges concludes that the movement has basically built up an alarming following of people who are basically fascists in their thinking, and therefore are a real danger to our open society.  It’s hard to argue with his point, especially when you see how non-religious advocates of complete corporate power ally themselves with people who are easily panicked about homosexuality, abortion, and who are belligerent about combining religion and government. 

It’s a fascinating book, because Hedges is more interested in outlining why the average believer gets converted to the religious right cause (and it’s driven by conversion, since it’s a political movement, not a religious denomination) than anything else, though he does cover some leaders, to the degree that he shows how they’re power-and-money-hungry assholes who will make the most outrageous claims to keep eyes on them and dollars rolling in.  His conclusion is that life in America is very bleak for a great deal of people, especially in the red states where the economic downturn has been decades in the making.  In the South and the Midwest, the good jobs are gone (is it a coincidence that the Midwest got more socially conservative as it got poorer?), and people have to work extremely hard to get by.  But the religious right is not a working class phenomenon exactly—-people of all income levels fill the pews, and some recruit mostly in not-poor areas.  I think Hedges’ point about Americans’ isolation is fascinating and gets into why megachurches seem to do just as well in stable, middle class neighborhoods.  People get up early, drive to work alone as the sun is rising, get home after sun is setting, watch some TV and go to bed.  They live in suburbs that are soulless and sidewalkless, where people live in houses that are designed to look cold and imposing.  Our society and economy doesn’t do much for our social lives.  The megachurches rush in and fill the gap, bringing an entire community with them that’s large enough that you can find your niche.  That’s a powerful thing.  They position themselves against the “culture of death”, and Hedges points out that the world around them does seem empty and soulless, like a culture of death. 

It’s funny, because a few weeks ago I commented on the podcast about how much of anti-choice religious rhetoric presumes that you’re lonely and will feel the pain of it.  Some big time anti-choice broadcaster was talking about mourning the lost friends, siblings, sons and daughters, etc. that were lost….to abortion. (And next: contraception.) At the time, I suspected that it was a ploy to get lonely people to blame their problems on reproductive rights.

Is this really a powerful argument for anti-choicers? That there’s all these people that would have liked them and totally been their friends if it wasn’t for reproductive rights? Are they that lonely that they think the only cure is to increase the number of people by force so that maybe someone can be their friend? I’d hate to think so, but then why is he using that argument?

But reading Hedges’ book, I get it.  If you’re succumbing to depression because of the sterile, lonely world you live in, rhetoric that promises, “Join us and your world will be teeming with life,” starts to sound good, no matter how illogical it is.  I think most of us can sympathize with this problem.  It also goes a long way to explaining how easy it is to freak out members of the religious right with sexual fantasies about all the crazy shit other people are supposedly doing.  If you feel isolated from others, it’s much easier to imagine that their behavior is strange and inhuman. Merely knowing some gay people and seeing they don’t have fangs or scales goes a long way towards calming fears stoked by the religious right.

Hedges also talks about the alarming flip side of this, which are the apocalyptic fantasies that are nurtured by right wingers.  Again, if the world around you doesn’t do much for you, but feels empty and meaningless, then it’s easy to get you on board with the idea of wiping it all out and starting over.  He finds this tendency to be the most fearsome one of all.

So, what do we do about it?  Hedges has some suggestions—-read the book to find out more, it’s really worth it—-but the one thing I found most interesting was that he strongly suggests that people interested in an open society give up the idea that we can have some sort of discourse with people on the religious right.  I don’t know why, but that struck me as a profound insight.  He’s right—-most people can, if they put their minds to it, have a dialogue with someone who thinks differently.  For instance, Hedges doesn’t try to hide that he’s presuming that most of his audience will be liberal believers of some sort, and he contrasts real faith with this fascist mindset of the right over and over.  Now, I’m an atheist and have some disagreements with that, but I didn’t shut down and was not only able but happy to engage his worldview and learn something from it.  And I’ve no doubt that he’d be able to return the favor.  Which isn’t to say that people in this country don’t often have harsh and ugly disagreements, but very rarely does it slip into genuine eliminationism. But eliminationism is built into the religious right’s worldview, not just in their apocalyptic fantasies, but in their general desire to force everyone who is different from them to live by their rules. 

So, what do we do if dialoguing with the religious right is counterproductive?  Well, what we’re doing already: Mocking them, exposing their pundits who try to conceal their agendas when they go on TV, and highlighting the substantial differences.  For instance, the anti-choice movement puts a lot of work into trying to get the public to think that “pro-life” and pro-choice are just two groups of extremists locking horns.  (Thus the term “pro-abort”.)  Our job is to point out that the real crux of the argument is between those who want to control you and those who want you to be free to do what you want, and that includes free to choose to have a baby, even under circumstances where that’s a hard choice.  Obama did a good job of that during the final debate, and it put McCain in a spot where he made fun of women who want to not die from ectopic pregnancies or strokes. So it’s an effective strategy.  And now Michael Barone has given people a great opportunity to highlight how far he’s slipped from reason, and it’s only because pro-choicers live up to the word “choice”. 

*My working theory about his weird obsession is that he didn’t realize women could get pregnant in their 40s without massive interventions from expensive fertility doctors, and instead of readjusting his beliefs in the face of this new information, he decided to go on the attack on Palin’s last pregnancy.  But that’s pure speculation.  Make up your own theories!  Pursue them with the painful and embarrassing doggedness that Sullivan pursued Trig Palin’s birth certificate.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:55 PM • (92) Comments

I’m sure wingnuts were waiting for someone to say something nasty, so they could pounce on it, but when that didn’t happen, they didn’t skip a beat and moved right in to pretending that it did.

I saw more than a few ill-informed blog comments declaring her “irresponsible”, but these were comments in blogs, not, you know, actual journalists or entire groups of journalists.

If anything, liberals would love to make a world where all parents willing to raise kids with down syndrome would get the support and educational options that they needed.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  11/12  at  02:01 PM

Now, Barone is not religious, but for whatever reason, he’s hitching his wagon to Sarah Palin, a divisive figure that will, if all goes well, create a permanent rift between the religious right that thinks they own the Republican party and the elitists who don’t enjoy Bible-thumping and call themselves “fiscal conservatives”.

I used to respect Barone as a general inside-baseball media analyst in the 90s, but as happened with many Beltway journalists something went seriously “off” with him during the disastrous Bush years. What he might be doing here is repeating the kind of cynical shop talk and black humour you hear in newsrooms, but that’s gossip and not serious reporting on what actually made it to air or print in any form (as Barone implies).

I read the Hedges book a few months back—nothing really new or shocking for me, but it’s a good short intro for a liberal reader to the landscape of Dominionists and other Xtian fantasists, and their process and methods.

Comment #2: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  02:10 PM

My working theory about his weird obsession is that he didn’t realize women could get pregnant in their 40s without massive interventions from expensive fertility doctors, and instead of readjusting his beliefs in the face of this new information, he decided to go on the attack on Palin’s last pregnancy.

I think that’s because he thinks women over forty don’t have sex. We are unfuckable. Not only is that not true, but some of us are fully capable of getting pregnant well into our 50s.

Comment #3: Broce  on  11/12  at  02:11 PM

“I saw more than a few ill-informed blog comments declaring her “irresponsible”, but these were comments in blogs, not, you know, actual journalists or entire groups of journalists.”

I recall a few SCLM people (such as Sally Quinn, who’s most emphatically a so-called liberal)  saying things like ‘Why is she running for vice president when she should be taking care of her Down syndrome child?’

I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that Michael Barone would say literally anything about liberals in order to get Republicans elected. I used to read U.S. News when he was a columnist and he was always much more fantasy-driven than fellow conservative John Leo.

Comment #4: witless chum  on  11/12  at  02:19 PM

Part of the problem is, like everyone predicted, the right-wing went insane in the aftermath of the election. The promised Permanent Republican Majority never happened, and worse, reality went and rubbed their noses in their complete irrelevance. For people who’d decided that being wrong about anything was the worst thing possible, the True Believers are in Raging Freak-Out mode, and Barone is just the most recent to start gibbering.

I would like to think that the sane members of the party could start fixing things up, but that probably won’t start happening for several years, at the earliest. The party is still controlled by whackaloons, and it’ll be a lot of trouble for sane Republican outsiders to get control of things…

Comment #5: Scott  on  11/12  at  02:23 PM

People get up early, drive to work alone as the sun is rising, get home after sun is setting, watch some TV and go to bed.  They live in suburbs that are soulless and sidewalkless, where people live in houses that are designed to look cold and imposing.
And this is one reason why the megachurch politicization of religion hasn’t caught on in big urban areas. (Another being that building something that vast in a city is expensive and often prohibited by zoning laws.) When your lifestyle requires that you interact with strangers at places other than the supermarket checkout, they become less scary.

Comment #6: pepito  on  11/12  at  02:28 PM

“I think that’s because he thinks women over forty don’t have sex. We are unfuckable. Not only is that not true, but some of us are fully capable of getting pregnant well into our 50s. “

Or he could have been raised by someone like my grandmother, who never revealed her age because she had committed the horrible social sin of marrying late and having her last child 2 weeks after she turned 40. Apparently she was often asked if they were her grandchildren… it was certainly a scarring experience for a lovely caring funny woman, so I wonder what it would be like if the woman took it even more to heart or if she wasn’t in as happy a situation. That kind of mental damage can be easily passed on if it’s part of the unspoken “rules of acceptable behavior”.

Comment #7: kodiak  on  11/12  at  02:29 PM

What do people who are dedicated to an open society do when faced with an internal group that wants to shut down an open society because of their religious beliefs?

I have trouble parsing this sentence, cuz it seems like the “internal group” is not—both groups are internal to society at large, but one isn’t internal to the other.

Society is the environment, not one of the groups.  (“IBM isn’t our competitor: IBM is the environment.”—old IT saying.)

Comment #8: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/12  at  02:42 PM

I recall a few SCLM people (such as Sally Quinn, who’s most emphatically a so-called liberal) saying things like ‘Why is she running for vice president when she should be taking care of her Down syndrome child?’

Yeah, I heard a lot of comments like that not from journalists, but from older relatives and neighbors.  Pretty much a sexism-tinged “if she were a good mother, she would be staying home and devoting all her attention to Trig,” which is hard for conservatives to argue because it’s the kind of attitude they’re used to pushing.  So instead people like Barone would rather imagine some crazy left-wing extreme where liberals and journalists totally hated Palin because she is a Paragon of Motherhood and we hate special-needs babies.

Comment #9: Nicole  on  11/12  at  02:42 PM

Look, no-one will around here will be shocked to discover that MSM journalists at any major market media outlet of any political stripe are more socially liberal than your average American—these are ambitious, clever, career-driven people with at least an undergrad degree who live and/or work in urban areas. So yeah, until she gets some real power they’re not gonna find Palin a sympatico character personally.

The problem with “culture war” pundits like Barone is that he deliberately conflates those journalists’ personal views with their professional product, totally ignoring the huge counter-balance of the risk-averse and fiscally conservative corporations that employ them. Those corporations have to appeal to the broadest possible audience, including Xtian fundies who aren’t quite religious enough to give up on da telebision, so they go out of their way to either promote their extreme version of impartiality or, worse, turn into propaganda organs for the right.

Go into the Fox News newsroom in the morning, and then go across the Hudson to the MSNBC one in the afternoon, and the talk and staff will be an almost identical bunch of educated and cynical NYers. But watch the product each newsroom puts out, and it becomes clear who’s really calling the shots in the SCLM. But most people—especially the type of person Hedges describes as prey to the megachurches—won’t do that, which makes Barone’s job a lot easier.

Comment #10: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  03:00 PM

Our society and economy doesn’t do much for our social lives.  The megachurches rush in and fill the gap, bringing an entire community with them that’s large enough that you can find your niche.

I suspect this is also the root of much of the animosity towards the internet.

Not only does it provide information (that’s difficult to censor), it allows people with otherwise isolated lives to form social bonds without a church. And anyone can find their niche on the internet.

Comment #11: Ruby  on  11/12  at  03:03 PM

It’s weird to go after the Down’s syndrome thing when attacking socially liberal urbanites, though.  I heard far more people who were like, “Five kids? Are you kidding?” Socially liberal, career-driven urbanites are, in my experience, sympathetic to having a disabled child.  And they’re sympathetic to the idea that having children later in life incurs certain risks that it’s okay to take.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  03:05 PM

The problem of what to do in a democratic society when a large proportion of the people hold anti-democratic views is one of the most intractable difficulties in political philosophy as well. It really gets back to the question, is a well-ordered society (in the Rawlsian sense) even possible, given the facts of human psychology. It seems to be that we don’t do enough to support political and social institutions that reduce the power of anti-democratic ideology. Humiliating them among moderates might work in the short term, but what if they resort to violence? And won’t that just feed their sense of victimization? It’s a real conundrum.

Comment #13: arbitrista  on  11/12  at  03:05 PM

dialoguing with the religious right is counterproductive

You know, that is not a point of view I am accustomed to, but it seems to have a ring of truth. What could I possibly tell the religious right that would convince them of a single goddamn thing? Nothing, that’s what. No matter what I said, they would simply interpret as a trick or a lie.

Interesting. Maybe I should read the book and understand more accurately what Hedges is saying.

Comment #14: atheist  on  11/12  at  03:19 PM

Dialoguing with the religious right is impossible. I’ve been working on it for some time with “my pet christians” at a women’s blog. You have to understand that their world view is a compound of toxic fear and self loathing, slavish devotion to an invisible g-d, a conviction that they are in a threatened minority, and also that their beliefs and actions should and do represent a hidden majority.  You simply can’t talk rationally to people who of necessity, out of fear, hold so many contradictory views.  Gay behavior is a “choice” that is no more integral to the individual than “choosing” to be a glutton, but such a serious sin that it should be outlawed, only not outlawed exactly by stoning but at least society must signify its strong dissaproval by outlawing gay marriage, even for non christians?  You can’t get to the bottom of these beliefs because they have no real structural integrity. You need to grasp that lots of these people fled disorderly, unhappy, non religious family lives and they have constructed their current social commitments as a bulwark against what they see looming everywhere—the pull back to disorder.  They find comfort and certainity in following the teachings of some very angry, divisive, hate filled religious preachers and these preachers in turn find organizing and exploiting their believers easier when it is done against a backdrop of fear and self isolation. There must always be a devil in order that your preacher can always reap a tithe from you by proposing to kill the devil. It hardly matters whether its the jews, or the gays, or the commies or some toxic mix of all three. There must always been an external threat to bind these communities together.

aimai

Comment #15: aimai  on  11/12  at  03:44 PM

the one thing I found most interesting was that he strongly suggests that people interested in an open society give up the idea that we can have some sort of discourse with people on the religious right.

I gave up on that idea a long time ago, because a) they’re authoritarian control freaks (the right-winger part) and b) they’re fantasists (the relgious part)—if you want, as many liberals do, to have rational and mutually productive discourse, the other party at least needs to agree that “rational and mutually productive” is the way to go.

Comment #16: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  03:51 PM

he strongly suggests that people interested in an open society give up the idea that we can have some sort of discourse with people on the religious right. [...] [E]liminationism is built into the religious right’s worldview, not just in their apocalyptic fantasies, but in their general desire to force everyone who is different from them to live by their rules.

Somewhere, Amy Sullivan has her fingers in her ears and is alternating between “lalalalacan’tHEEEEAAARRRRRyou! and yelling It’s YOUR fault people of faith won’t listen, you won’t tell them the things that they need to hear!  YOUR FAULT!!!

Comment #17: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  04:01 PM

”...and b) they’re fantasists (the relgious part)...”

The fantasist part of these people encompasses a lot more than just their religious beliefs. 

The unquestioned belief that cutting taxes is the solution to any and all economic problems is a fantasy. 

The belief that invading another country and killing its civilians will transform it into a Western-style democracy is a fantasy.

The belief which most of them have that they will prosper under Republican control is a fantasy.

The belief that all Republicans are good and all Democrats are bad is a fantasy.

etc…

Comment #18: MikeEss  on  11/12  at  04:05 PM

I gave up on that idea a long time ago, because a) they’re authoritarian control freaks (the right-winger part) and b) they’re fantasists (the religious part)—if you want, as many liberals do, to have rational and mutually productive discourse, the other party at least needs to agree that “rational and mutually productive” is the way to go.

(Standing ovation for Gracchus.)

Hell, I’d be willing to make a start of they agree that “rational and mutually productive” is even a compelling option, but most of them won’t even concede that.

Perhaps a key to the problem is that we see the western world as one in which free people should be left to make free choices on areas that don’t hurt other people.  They see the whole world as one big command-oriented structure akin to an army: there’s a C.O., there’s the Regulations, and nobody is entitled to go their own way any more than a corporal can decide that he’s infantry or supply, or choose where he will be on a battlefield.  The basic structure of perception and expectation is totally different for the True Believer.

Comment #19: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  04:06 PM

...The belief that “Real Americans” live in Red States is a fantasy.

The belief that their $40,000/year income puts them in the Middle Class is a fantasy.

The belief that America is a totally special place, unconstrained by normal history, whose leadership in the world will never be challenged is a fantasy…

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  11/12  at  04:09 PM

Andrew Sullivan is a man who is, in many ways, a bit too wedded to a Platonic Ideal in his perceptions:

* He has an idealized definition of “conservative”, which allows him to see the the actual structure and operation and destructive tendencies of conservatism as “not truly conservative” because it doesn’t match The Ideal.
* He has an idealized definition of “Christian” or “Catholic” which allows him to square his homosexuality and belief in debate and the exchange of ideas with a specific sub-creed that is actively and avowedly hostile to both his very identity and what he believes are essential qualities for a healthy society.

He builds his definitions around what he thinks that a concept or thing should be, rather than what it is.

Comment #21: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  04:12 PM

It’s weird to go after the Down’s syndrome thing when attacking socially liberal urbanites, though.  I heard far more people who were like, “Five kids? Are you kidding?” Socially liberal, career-driven urbanites are, in my experience, sympathetic to having a disabled child.  And they’re sympathetic to the idea that having children later in life incurs certain risks that it’s okay to take.

In my experience, once socially liberal, career-driven urbanites have kids, they’re so totally devoted to taking care of them and giving them every advantage, that the idea of having to give more care to a special needs kid doesn’t phase them at all. The idea of having to split all that care among lots of kids, and risk shortchanging them, sounds awful.

Comment #22: Av0gadro  on  11/12  at  04:26 PM

Barone is of course making a huge leap from a hypothetical (“If _I_ had been in that position, I think I would have gotten an abortion”) to a prescription (“In that position, _she_ _should_ have gotten an abortion, end of story”).  I can remember a few reactions like the former.  I don’t remember any of the latter, let alone some huge groundswell typical of Teh Librulz.

Comment #23: FlipYrWhig  on  11/12  at  04:31 PM

Regarding this statement:

“Merely knowing some gay people and seeing they don’t have fangs or scales goes a long way towards calming fears stoked by the religious right.”

I’ve always felt that everybody SURELY knows someone who is gay. The odds are that they do, but maybe the gay people they know are closeted or haven’t come out to them specifically.

I’m curious though, does anyone know what the ACTUAl figures are? I always thought it was something like 1 in 10 people are LGBT. Is that close?

Comment #24: Mark  on  11/12  at  04:33 PM

Dialoguing with the religious right is impossible. I’ve been working on it for some time with “my pet christians” at a women’s blog. You have to understand that their world view is a compound of toxic fear and self loathing, slavish devotion to an invisible g-d, a conviction that they are in a threatened minority, and also that their beliefs and actions should and do represent a hidden majority.

I gave up on that idea a long time ago, because a) they’re authoritarian control freaks (the right-winger part) and b) they’re fantasists (the relgious part)—if you want, as many liberals do, to have rational and mutually productive discourse, the other party at least needs to agree that “rational and mutually productive” is the way to go.

To be fair, according to Sara Robinson at Orcinus, there are situations where you really can have productive dialogue with members of the religious right, but it basically has to be when people are dissatisfied with their fundamentalist milieu on some level. She has 2 series up about it, “cracks in the wall” and “tunnels and bridges”

Comment #25: atheist  on  11/12  at  04:36 PM

Andrew Sullivan is a man who is, in many ways, a bit too wedded to a Platonic Ideal in his perceptions:

And he’s completely hostile to practicality for the most part.  His argument for small government is that, since government programs don’t work perfectly, it’s better not to bother with them at all.  He apparently hasn’t considered, or doesn’t care to acknowledge, that, in many areas, private commerce and private charities are less efficient/work less perfectly than government.

Comment #26: keshmeshi  on  11/12  at  04:40 PM

I always thought it was something like 1 in 10 people are LGBT. Is that close?

That figure has been bandied about and originated from Kinsey’s flawed ‘research’ of which much was illegal acts perpetrated on children and unrepresentative groups. His figures have never been duplicated, which is the basis of science. Bottom line is he was wrong….so very, very wrong.

Most groups have estimate 2-3%....pretty much in line with mental disease in general.

Comment #27: Bob Zimerman  on  11/12  at  04:48 PM

Bob Zimerman, I remember you!

Go away.

Comment #28: Antigone  on  11/12  at  04:52 PM

The Palins are millionaires? What the fuck for?

Comment #29: Rick Massimo  on  11/12  at  04:53 PM

“Most groups have estimate 2-3%....pretty much in line with mental disease in general.”

...fuck you, Bob…bigot…

Comment #30: MikeEss  on  11/12  at  04:53 PM

His argument for small government is that, since government programs don’t work perfectly, it’s better not to bother with them at all.

Basically, from what I’ve heard, Andrew Sullivan sounds strange and a little dumb. I’ll never forget the way he called all liberals a “Fifth Column” days after 9/11, so I will never trust him.

Comment #31: atheist  on  11/12  at  04:54 PM

“Most groups have estimate 2-3%....pretty much in line with mental disease in general.”

Most groups of assholes, right?

I was serious about this. Could someone who isn’t a troll help me out?

Comment #32: Mark  on  11/12  at  04:55 PM

Ah, Bob Zimmerman, the man who hates gays in the same way fantasy-based way that the Nazis hated Jews and Jim Crow Dems hated blacks. Not surprisingly, he’s also in favour of using the power of the state to punish the law-abiding citizens he hates. Mr. “Democracy at its best.”

In other words, not really a guy who’s looking for mutually productive and rational discourse.

Comment #33: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  05:15 PM

I was serious about this. Could someone who isn’t a troll help me out?

No easy answers, as this (remarkably drama-free) Wikipedia article tells us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

It contains lots of survey results for you to consider.

Comment #34: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  05:21 PM

I was serious about this. Could someone who isn’t a troll help me out?

Short answer: Unknown, possibly unknowable (define “gay” exactly).

See here.

We do know, however, that US views on the subject are cultural, and in the minority:

“They reported that homosexual behavior of some sort was considered normal and socially acceptable for at least some individuals in 64% of the 76 societies in their sample; in the remaining societies, adult homosexual activity was reported to be totally absent, rare, or carried on only in secrecy.”

(Indeed, in at least two societies I can recall, male homosexuality was obligatory to some extent).

Homosexuality is abnormal only in a statistical sense, and not notably correlated with any mental pathology (although, strangely enough, teenaged gays in countries that heap disapproval on gays commit suicide more often that their straight counterparts).

Bob is also wrong about the incidence of mental illness.  About 1 in every 1 of us suffer from it to one extent or another.

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/12  at  05:27 PM

[T]he money flowing into think tanks and the organizations dedicated to movement conservatism are funded in no small part by millionaires and billionaires who are idiot savants that are good at making money, but not good at thoughtful religious and drawn to fundamentalism

Amanda, you’re giving a lot of these right-wing sugar daddies way too much credit.  May of the biggest wingnut welfare supporters made their money the good old fashioned way: they inherited it. 

Richard Mellon Scaife is probably the most obvious example.  Like Dubya, Scaife was an irresponsible drunken ne’er do well who was lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family (he is a descendant of Andrew W. Mellon).  Scaife’s most visible business venture, the right-wing Pittsburgh Tribune-Review has been a money loser from day one.

Comment #36: "Fair and Balanced" Dave  on  11/12  at  05:30 PM

Ah, Bob Zimmerman, the man who hates gays in the same way fantasy-based way that the Nazis hated Jews and Jim Crow Dems hated blacks. Not surprisingly, he’s also in favour of using the power of the state to punish the law-abiding citizens he hates. Mr. “Democracy at its best.”

In other words, not really a guy who’s looking for mutually productive and rational discourse.

His appropriation of Bob Dylan’s birth name is the real crime against nature.

Comment #37: Captain Bathrobe  on  11/12  at  05:32 PM

..the idea that we can have some sort of discourse with people on the religious right.

Exactly right.

The RWA thrust & mentality simply doesn’t DO discourse.
It AVOIDS thesis~antithesis.
And that not just movement code;
they really work on skirting the think,
and so of course are viscerally anti-intellectual.

From fascist dear Leaders of all stamps to stalinist Mao.
[mybolds]

Comment #38: has_te  on  11/12  at  05:34 PM

aimai:

There must always be a devil in order that your preacher can always reap a tithe from you by proposing to kill the devil. It hardly matters whether its the jews, or the gays, or the commies or some toxic mix of all three. There must always been an external threat to bind these communities together.

As I understand it, the need to have an othered external enemy at all times is a crucial element and proximate cause of large-scale fascist movements. As these people become more and more marginalized, as seems to be happening, they will become more dangerous, not less so.

Comment #39: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  11/12  at  05:37 PM

His appropriation of Bob Dylan’s birth name is the real crime against nature.

It seems to be a weird quirk of RWA comment trolls to reference socially liberal musicians in their handles. Former habitues of Netslaves in particular will know what I’m talking about.

Comment #40: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  05:43 PM

Zimmerman’s an asshole dwelling troll but I think his statistics are right. I’m not sure where the “illegal acts on children” come in but I believe the 1 in 10 figure is more accurately based on “everyone who has ever had a homosexual *experience*” not orientation, which wasn’t really a concept that existed as concretely as it does today. If you use the 1 in 10 figure, I am LGBT because I’ve kissed a couple of dudes, but really I’m not.

Comment #41: Lamenter  on  11/12  at  05:44 PM

I always thought it was something like 1 in 10 people are LGBT.

Actually, 10% of all Americads are pretending to be the gay, so’s they can get the benefit package.  There not REAL gay, as they can stop whenever they want to, but there greedy, like the fancy gay clothes and the spiffy furniture the “gay” community provides for them.  I’ve ben tempted once or twice, cause I’d really like a Barcelona Day Bed in the salon of my basement lair.

Comment #42: Rugged in Montana  on  11/12  at  05:50 PM

There’s another thing that people interested in an open society can do, namely to live generous, friendly, thoughtful, responsible lives—the secular counterpart, if you will, to the crap about living a “christian” life and converting people by example. That’s how you get the credibility to act when those “cracks in the wall” moments come around.

We also should think and do more about social organizations to fill the same kind of niche that the megachurches do, or about closing that niche by a judicious combination of planning/zoning changes, government services and private action.

Comment #43: paul  on  11/12  at  05:51 PM

Americads

A great name for the hordes of straight guys who are pretending to be gay for the furniture and the chance to break a bunch of hearts along the way.

Comment #44: junk science  on  11/12  at  05:55 PM

On Sullivan: He just seems to have an obsession with political candidates’ health. He was vociferous about the lack of disclosure from every one.

Comment #45: Will H.  on  11/12  at  05:57 PM

the incidence of mental illness.  About 1 in every 1 of us suffer from it to one extent or another.

:D

Comment #46: Kristen from MA  on  11/12  at  05:58 PM

I’d heard that recent studies have contested the old 10% figure. But I guess it depends on how one measures teh gay. Apparently there are not many people who are exclusively homosexual.

But I suspect that there are a lot of “straight” people who measure in the grey areas of the Kinsey scale (hovering around 2 on the scale of 5, 1 being exclusively hetero-, 5 exclusively homo-)—i.e., not fully bi-sexual, but having more than accidental homosexual feelings. Would love to see hard numbers about that. Might explain a lot of fear and bigotry in straight(ish) men.

Comment #47: wapsie  on  11/12  at  06:01 PM

wapsie:

There’s the old result that homophobic young men get more of an erection watching queer porn than non-phobes, and almost as much as self-identified queer men. And of course the fact that AIDS outreach had to change “gay men” to “men who have sex with other men” because way too many of the at-risk population considered themselves not-gay either because they were closeted or because they were the “active” partner in their encounters.

Comment #48: paul  on  11/12  at  06:06 PM

“having more than accidental homosexual feelings”

Doesn’t that conjure up delightful images like Dan Savage’s comments about, “whoops, I slipped and fell and my mouth landed on his dick!” ??

Comment #49: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  06:12 PM

Doesn’t that conjure up delightful images like Dan Savage’s comments about, “whoops, I slipped and fell and my mouth landed on his dick!” ??

Or that classic from The Onion, “Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock?” [PDF]

As Rugged in Montana will no doubt tell us, these unfortunate situations are all too common in modern America.

Comment #50: Gracchus  on  11/12  at  06:22 PM

From the Barone story on Politico:
—————
Asked about the comments, Barone said in an e-mail that he “was attempting to be humorous and, as many in public do, went over the line.”
—————

And leaving aside the question of how anyone could see humor in “The liberal media attacked Sarah Palin because she did not abort her Down syndrome baby. They wanted her to kill that child.”

What he’s saying, trying walking his horrible comments back, is that he knew it wasn’t true but he was trying to be funny—by accusing people he has worked with for 35 years of attacking SP because they wanted her to kill a child and she didn’t.

Go ahead and have a reasoned dialogue with that ... I’ll be interested to hear how it works out.

As for me, I’m a big Kratt brothers fan, and I believe that some things are better seen from a distance than experienced as a participant. “Always give a wild animal its space.”

The Barone types need a whole lot of space.

Comment #51: Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog  on  11/12  at  06:46 PM

he was trying to be funny—by accusing people he has worked with for 35 years of attacking SP because they wanted her to kill a child and she didn’t.  Go ahead and have a reasoned dialogue with that ... I’ll be interested to hear how it works out.

Ding ding ding.

Comment #52: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  07:01 PM

As Rugged in Montana will no doubt tell us, these unfortunate situations are all too common in modern America.

Hey, strange and completely implausable accidents happen, ok?

Comment #53: Rugged in Montana  on  11/12  at  07:02 PM

seeker@02:12PM - He has an idealized definition of “conservative”...

This is a near-universal tic of conservatives:  They define themselves as Conservative without any modifiers and other conservatives are not “true” conservatives.  It applies regardless of whether the conservative in question is a religious conservative, social conservative, small government conservative, national greatness conservative, fiscal conservative, whatever.  Only the neocons don’t do this but they aren’t real conservatives grin

Comment #54: togolosh  on  11/12  at  07:08 PM

The problem with wingnuts who get excited about the better statistics that we have than Kinsey had is they don’t realize that Kinsey, being above all a scientist, would have been just fine with superior statistical methods that reduced the percentage from his estimate.  They tend to think that science is a new religion, and thus don’t understand the flexibility in the face of new evidence that is part of science.  Now, if you had there’s no such thing as homosexuality, I suspect Kinsey would have fought you on that, rightfully supposing you were doing something fishy.  But 2% or 10% doesn’t matter—-what matters is equality.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  07:11 PM

Togolosh and seeker, I do believe it’s called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.  Religion defenders do it by saying that behaviors X, Y, and Z mean that someone isn’t a real Christian.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  07:14 PM

Bob Zimmerman just failed the stick test, didn’t he?

Comment #57: Samantha Vimes  on  11/12  at  07:26 PM

The thing about the “no true Scotsman” argument is that a demagogue will be entirely happy to include all the fake Scotsmen as supporters when trying to build popular support, but when questioned on individuals will decry their true Scottishness.

e.g.

W: A majority of Americans are Christian and so oppose access to abortion. Since a majority opposes it, we should make it illegal.
M: Ummmm, most Christians are pro-choice. You don’t have a majority.
W: Well, they’re not real Christians, because real Christians are “pro-life”. So we do have a majority.
M: You don’t understand how fractions work and I’m not going to talk to you anymore.

Comment #58: Dolbia  on  11/12  at  07:27 PM

“But 2% or 10% doesn’t matter—-what matters is equality.”

I agree, Amanda. I was just curious if there was any sort of percentage to point to when someone says “I don’t know ANY gay people”.

Comment #59: Mark  on  11/12  at  07:27 PM

I’m not sure where the “illegal acts on children” come in but I believe the 1 in 10 figure is more accurately based on “everyone who has ever had a homosexual *experience*” not orientation, which wasn’t really a concept that existed as concretely as it does today. If you use the 1 in 10 figure, I am LGBT because I’ve kissed a couple of dudes, but really I’m not.

As wapsie alluded to, one of the things that most right-wingers leave out of their “2%-3%” figure is the Kinsey Scale.  On a scale of 1 to 6, with 1 being completely, 100% homosexual without even glancing at the opposite sex, and 6 being completely, 100% heterosexual without even glancing at the same sex, you do have figures around 2% to 3% in each of those categories.

Problem for the right-wingers is that all the rest of us fall somewhere between those two extremes.  You have men who identify as gay who’ve had sex with women (hey, even Christopher Isherwood did) and women who identify as hetero who “experimented” in college.  By Kinsey’s scale, neither one of them would qualify as truly homosexual or heterosexual.  The vast majority of us are bisexual to some degree.  There are people who consider themselves bisexual whose long-term partner is of the opposite sex and so people assume that s/he is “really” straight, when s/he isn’t at all.  And the same in the other direction—if a bisexual is in a long-term relationship with someone of the same sex, everyone assumes that s/he is “really” gay, when they’re not, as far as Kinsey was concerned.

(Kinsey put a lot of thought into it since he was bisexual himself.  If you haven’t seen the movie with Liam Neeson and Laura Linney, it’s definitely worth a rent.  Plus you get to see Peter Saarsgard full-frontal nude, which is always a good thing.)

Even a guy who’s only thought, “Wow, George Clooney is really amazing and handsome.  I wonder ... nah,” is in the middle of the scale, not at the extreme end.

Does that make sense?

Comment #60: Mnemosyne  on  11/12  at  07:28 PM

Even a guy who’s only thought, “Wow, George Clooney is really amazing and handsome.  I wonder ... nah,” is in the middle of the scale, not at the extreme end.
George Clooney? No chance. Jude Law, on the other hand…

Comment #61: Dolbia  on  11/12  at  07:30 PM

Thanks, Amanda.  I had forgotten the Scotsman maxim.

But then again, I’m a Sassenach.

Comment #62: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  07:31 PM

The problem with being a wingnut is that if you think George Clooney is amazing and handsome—or even the George Bush fills out a flight suit really well—the response isn’t “... nah”, it’s “therefore I’ve got to go beat up some queer for coming on to me.”

Comment #63: paul  on  11/12  at  08:08 PM

the incidence of mental illness.  About 1 in every 1 of us suffer from it to one extent or another.

:D

Sigh  Fine, be difficult.

4 in every 1 of us, in Kristen’s case.  You should really see a good shrink about that, you know.

Comment #64: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/12  at  08:31 PM

In truth, I’m more of a Propaganda Due Fascist. 

I look pretty damned good in Hugo Boss, so I’ll have that going for me and all when we get the uniforms all worked up though.

Comment #65: Horace Rumpole, Sturmbanfuhrer  on  11/12  at  08:45 PM

I know lots of gay people, have since I was a kid.  Big deal.  Whatever.  My dad’s business manager was a proper Scot from Edinburgh.  Gay.  In 1955 but not totally out, duh.  It was the construction industry.  All our friends in the summer, in Gloucester MA were gay, well 90% of them.  Art colony.  My friend’s mother is gay, she’s a minister.  And so on.

Who cares?  Idiots who think they have to meddle in other people’s lives, when their own aren’t exactly going well.

I’d like to see zimmerman’s citation for his ‘statistic’.

“Am I overusing scare quotes?” is a question I ask often.  There’s just so much bullshit flying around and I don’t want to acknowledge any of it by leaving out the sarcasm.  These days, it’s hard to write a ‘sentence’ without them LOL

Comment #66: Caveat  on  11/12  at  09:38 PM

Apparently there are not many people who are exclusively homosexual

I’ve been attracted to males as long as I’ve been concious of existing; when I was 6, I had a terrible crush on the guy next door, Dale and that was that.  I have zero interest in women as physical beings and the one time I tried sex with one at an orgy in the late 70’s, I had to fantasize about Steve Garvey to stay hard.  That poor woman, I just started laughing, pulled out and went on my way…..

In my experience, men aren’t adverse to sex with men—see: long sea voyages and prison—because the gender of the person blowing them or providing a sperm receptacle isn’t all *that* important, but what they don’t want any part of is The Gay: Carson Kressley and his like.  I wish I could remember who wrote the article but I remember reading something back in the 70’s that straight men/self-loathing homosexuals feared homosexuality because it was de facto feminine, no matter if there was top and bottom involved.  They feared being drawn in to something that they perceived was weak and easily exploitable.

Comment #67: Henry Holland  on  11/12  at  09:40 PM

It all makes sense now.  The religious right are Daleks.

Comment #68: Hari  on  11/12  at  09:47 PM

“All our friends in the summer, in Gloucester MA were gay, well 90% of them.”


Hahahahaha.  I’ll tell ya, I know a whole bunch of people from Gloucester, and I’ve yet to meet a straight man from there.  Every single one who wasn’t gay/bi/whatever when I met him has since become so/come out.  Maybe there’s something in the water.

Comment #69: rowmyboat  on  11/12  at  10:01 PM

No matter where you live or to which social class you belong, church can provide social outlets for the lonely, as will any kind of volunteer activity run by adults. Political and issue lobbying can form such a network of friends and acquaintances.

It’s not just the use of church as a one-stop social center - it’s the type of thinking encouraged by the church’s pastor and the lay leadership. Your typical Episcopalian or liberal UCC member feels free to disagree with the church’s or pastor’s Official Line, if there is one. The pastor at a conservative megachurch is a hybrid of strict father and movie star - both hero-worshipped and feared - and tends to have the lay elders in his pocket.

Comment #70: NancyP  on  11/12  at  10:42 PM

“The liberal media attacked Sarah Palin because she did not abort her Down syndrome baby,” Barone said, according to accounts by attendees. “They wanted her to kill that child. ... I’m talking about my media colleagues with whom I’ve worked for 35 years.”

Michael Barone, you’re right on. The liberal snobs resent Sarah Palin, the ‘feminists’ hate her and smear her every chance they get (see Keith Olberdork). She must be destroed they think to themselves (see Katie ‘condom’ Couric).

A God loving, Pro-life women w/5 kids? This is everything they are against.

Comment #71: Larry  on  11/12  at  10:51 PM

Current epidemiologic estimates are that roughly 4% of men and 2% of women have strong sexual orientation toward their own gender, and no interest in the opposite gender. About twice that number (8% men, 4% women) are free-choice bisexual (I don’t include men in prison and other situations where women are scarce or nonexistent). I suspect that the free-choice bisexual numbers are in part dictated by biology and in part dictated by social stigma - I would expect that the percentage would rise somewhat, as the stigma becomes reduced, and that the “exclusively same-gender-oriented” figures would also rise slightly, as the people with strong but not exclusive orientation toward own gender would no longer seek opposite gender partners for their societal advantages.

Comment #72: NancyP  on  11/12  at  10:53 PM

Larry’s a parody troll, right?  Or does he think he’s for real?

Comment #73: seeker6079  on  11/12  at  11:03 PM

“A God loving, Pro-life women w/5 kids? This is everything they are against.”

...um, Larry?  She wasn’t picked to be class president…she was supposed to be able to be the Real President…

Being a “A God loving, Pro-life women w/5 kids” may be really important to Laura Schlessinger and those who listen to her audio train-wrecks on the radio, but it don’t cut much as far as leadership goes…

By your standards Michelle Duggar must be qualified to be Emperor of the Universe or something…

Comment #74: MikeEss  on  11/12  at  11:05 PM

God-loving and personally against abortion, I have no problem with. Five kids - well, over 4 kids, and I start thinking more and more that the couple should strongly consider emergency or long-term fostering or adopting special needs kids that currently go without family (and a few parents of large bio-families do adopt as well, I know one such). If a family does a good job of raising children in the Golden Rule, have at it!

My objection starts when women such as Palin try to enforce their lifestyle on the rest of us, particularly if the woman politician doesn’t do anything concrete to help the poor women raising children, or to provide safety nets for disabled adults when their immediate caretakers die.

Comment #75: NancyP  on  11/12  at  11:08 PM

By your standards Michelle Duggar must be qualified to be Emperor of the Universe or something…

Well, she appears to be trying to assemble her own army…

Comment #76: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/12  at  11:14 PM

“Being a “A God loving, Pro-life women w/5 kids” may be really important to Laura Schlessinger and those who listen to her audio train-wrecks on the radio, but it don’t cut much as far as leadership goes…”

She is a Governor with approval ratings, was a Mayor, was Manager of the Alaska gas and enrgy commision. She’s worked for everthing she has. She is a worker.


Obama?  being a speech giver, an un-involved Senator who voted ‘present’, and community agitator doesn’t cut it either..

Comment #77: Larry  on  11/12  at  11:21 PM

Togolosh and seeker, I do believe it’s called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.  Religion defenders do it by saying that behaviors X, Y, and Z mean that someone isn’t a real Christian.

I think this is also how they can simultaneously proclaim America a Christian nation and believe themselves to be a persecuted minority.  Because technically speaking, their own particular sect is a small minority while all the others are, at best, hopelessly deluded or, at worst, active co-conspirators with a supernatural evil.

Comment #78: RobW  on  11/12  at  11:27 PM

“She is a Governor with approval ratings, was a Mayor, was Manager of the Alaska gas and enrgy commision. She’s worked for everthing she has. She is a worker.”

...of a state whose land area is huge, but whose whole population is about the same as Fort Worth.

If the mayor of Fort Worth was chosen as candidate for VPOTUS, would anybody be impressed?  Would wingnuts like you be going on and on about how incredibly qualified the mayor of Fort Worth is to be president?

...um I take that back.  You probably would be impressed.  But normal people, who vote, would not be.  Just as they were not impressed with Ms. Palin either…

Comment #79: MikeEss  on  11/12  at  11:34 PM

Mike,

Ninety-one percent (91%) of Republicans have a favorable view of Palin, including 65% who say their view is Very Favorable.

“...of a state whose land area is huge, but whose whole population is about the same as Fort Worth. “

who or what has Obama ever managed?

Comment #80: Larry  on  11/12  at  11:51 PM

“who or what has Obama ever managed?”

...well recently, Obama has managed a victory of hope over 4-more years of “Same Shit, Different Day” by squashing McCain and Palin.  Then he’s going to manage to throw the Republicans on their asses and clean up the mess they’ve made of this country and the federal government…

Comment #81: MikeEss  on  11/13  at  12:17 AM

She is a Governor with approval ratings, was a Mayor, was Manager of the Alaska gas and enrgy commision. She’s worked for everthing she has. She is a worker.

Obama represented more people as a state senator in Illinois than Palin does as a governor.  You do realize that the population of Alaska is less than 700,000, right?

Tell me, Larry:  what about Sarah Palin’s background qualifies her to negotiate with Russia to get them to leave South Ossetia?  “I can see Russia from my house!” doesn’t count.

What part of Palin’s economic policies did you like best?  Was it the cutting of capital gains taxes, or just the tax cuts for the rich all around?  What was her plan to save GM?

Oh, and to answer the question for Joe Biden:  he’s been a senator on the foreign affairs committee for over a decade.  That’s why he was picked to be VP.

Comment #82: Mnemosyne  on  11/13  at  12:45 AM

Having a baby with Down syndrome does not excuse you from being an arrogant ninny. That’s what the criticism of Palin was based on.

Comment #83: Bitter Scribe  on  11/13  at  01:11 AM

And the “reckless” accusation was hurled - not for having a Down child, but for getting on a plane for an eight hour flight while manifesting the first signs of labor - in a high risk pregnancy, premature birth situation.  Major lack of judgment.  That the kid was OK is sheer luck - and I wouldn’t want anyone who relies on sheer luck to be answering that 3 a.m. phone call - ya know?

Comment #84: phylosopher  on  11/13  at  02:18 AM

As such, Barone is on board with spreading lies that function only to make liberals look like absolute monsters.

Now, Amanda, I know you make lying a habit, but this was demonstrated right here at Pandagon right after Palin was nominated. You had commenters who were “questioning her judgment” because she had the audacity not to kill her baby once she was told he had Down Syndrome. Worse, there was only one or two other commenters who actually called bullshit on this remark.

Now, I don’t think Barone was telling a joke by any stretch of the imagination. But the truth smarts, and the fact that Palin didn’t get rid of her baby and wasn’t home baking cookies instead of running a state gave you guys the vapors. It was fascinating to watch.

Comment #85: Sharon  on  11/13  at  03:20 AM

You had commenters who were “questioning her judgment” because she had the audacity not to kill her baby once she was told he had Down Syndrome. Worse, there was only one or two other commenters who actually called bullshit on this remark.

If you look at what Barone said, Sharon:

“The liberal media attacked Sarah Palin because she did not abort her Down syndrome baby,” Barone said, according to accounts by attendees. “They wanted her to kill that child. ... I’m talking about my media colleagues with whom I’ve worked for 35 years.”

None of the commentators here were Barones’ “media colleagues with whom I’ve worked for 35 years”, let alone the ones who were “questioning her judgment” about flying to Alaska from Texas when her water had broke, not because she should’ve aborted Trig because he has Downs’ Syndrome.

Now, Amanda, I know you make lying a habit, but this was demonstrated right here at Pandagon right after Palin was nominated.


As an accusation, yes:

This is a great pick. Shes tough too, a person of character, smart, executive experience.

and finally…

Obama: throws HRC under the bus with sexists attacks.

McCain: picks a strong woman with executive experience.

Obama: sides with abortionists over a down synrome baby.

Palin: delivers a down syndrome baby.
BobK on 08/29 at 11:01 AM

Or was it this?:

I’m not saying she is stupid, I’m just saying her decision is not one that I personally agree with.  I’m also not suggesting it as a line of attack.  And, a person with a 70 IQ is very, very different from the lowest ranges that Down’s can reach - which is certainly lower than 35.  That is the average range for Down syndrom.  There is a reason that the majority of women who undergo an anmnio that results in a Down confirmation terminate that preganacy.  Generally after they speak to a genetic counselor.  That is why her decision bothers me - because it indicates to me that she does not demonstrate an ability to make an informed decision.  And happily for her, it turned out she had a child with an IQ in the higher Down range.  That’s all I’m saying.

That’s one commentator who disagreed with Ms. Palin’s choice.

AFAIK, she isn’t one of Barones’ media buddies.

Link to site search of Sarah Palin.

You should be able to use the link to demonstrate how I’m wrong and you’re right about what you just wrote.

Shall you be reminded of your own posting here:?

Wow, I love watching the nuttiness here. Amanda, is that just more of your own personal “I hate successful women” schtick? Because this post certainly seems chockful of envy.

I don’t hate successful women, you moron.  God, could you be more stupid?  Not if you scooped your brain out with an ice cream scoop.

I hate women who play patsy for the patriarchy.  Like you and like Palin.  I hate your guts, and you’re a failure and a moron, to boot.  So the consistent thread is hating women who hate women.

But the truth smarts

But lying is even more effective, eh, Sharon?

Massive FAIL!

Hey, you know that second quote DA mentioned?  I remember slamming that one b/c even at this point there’s no way to know what Trig’s IQ is.  And 35 is about as bad as DS gets, not the average.

It’s not something to wish FOR, nor is it something that should be undertaken lightly, but it’s not an utter tragedy either.

Not like what would have happened if Trig had been born midflight and had had a complication.

Comment #87: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/13  at  05:07 AM

Ninety-one percent (91%) of Republicans have a favorable view of Palin, including 65% who say their view is Very Favorable.

I bet it’s closer to 100% of Democrats who would like to see her continue running for high office on the Republican ticket.

Comment #88: sunsin  on  11/13  at  08:19 AM

Obama?  being a speech giver, an un-involved Senator who voted ‘present’, and community agitator doesn’t cut it either..

Reading time-warped crap like this makes me feel very good about the next few years. The left, center, and right wings of the Democratic Party can debate the future of the nation, while the Republicans curl up in a dusty closet somewhere and suck their thumbs.

Comment #89: sunsin  on  11/13  at  08:22 AM

“It all makes sense now.  The religious right are Daleks.”
DAVROS: These men are political operatives. They can help you. Let them live - have pity!
DALEK: PI-TY. I have no understanding of the word.

Comment #90: me  on  11/13  at  08:35 AM

No one has asked if she got an amniocentesis test or not. If she wasn’t going to consider abortion why get the test?

Comment #91: robert mcclellan  on  11/13  at  08:38 AM

Didn’t Obamas campaign actually manage more volunteers that there are people in the entire state of Alaska?  Does anyone have final stats on that?

Comment #92: KL  on  11/13  at  09:47 AM
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