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Next entry: Douche-hat strikes again Previous entry: George Will will grump your ass right into your car

Bamboo Reviews: Star Trek

Spoilers!

So, the trailer for “Star Trek” sucked me in.  That, and relatively good ratings the critics gave it.  Well, and I like “Lost”, and so I figured J.J. Abrams could deliver on the promise to “reboot” the Star Trek franchise, making it interesting to people like me who aren’t necessarily opposed to sci-fi, but who haven’t ever really been interested in “Star Trek”.  “Battlestar Galactica” has, whatever you think of the ending, conclusively proven that you can take hokey source material and turn it into something imaginative and intellectually challenging.  Consider that, and then consider how much more you have to work with when it comes to “Star Trek” as source material.  J.J. Abrams has proven with “Lost” that he can handle the complicated, confusing plots that “Star Trek” is (I hear) famous for.  And Abrams promised that the movie would be accessible to people who don’t know much about “Star Trek”.  That’s me!  I’ve only ever seen the first two movies, and bits of the original series and none of the spin-offs, not even a minute.  So I went in with high hopes.

What I do know about “Star Trek”, from just absorbing it culturally, is that it’s based on the premise of a utopian Earth that aligns itself politically with other planets to create a Federation that funds massive amounts of space exploration, and that a large amount of the appeal of the series goes to the fact that it advanced progressive views and values in a sci-fi environment that usually inculcates reactionaries.  This strikes me as a great place to launch a clever blockbuster that packs in lots of action, but explores some interesting progressive issues without being pedantic.  But apparently, the producers and writers decided that this was impossible, and decided that interesting themes are mutually exclusive from action-packed thrill rides, and chose the latter over the former.  For a movie that shows the genocide of an entire race—-one that’s enshrined in the public consciousness like the Vulcans are, no less—-I felt nothing.  Which is terrible, because the movie’s entire emotional impact turns on how Spock’s grief over the loss of his mother and his planet, and so if you can’t sell his tragedy as a tragedy, you’re losing the audience.  Zachary Quinto brought some gravitas to the role that mediated this problem, but it just wasn’t enough.

If you knew nothing about “Star Trek” going into this movie, you would come out with very little understanding of the Federation or the people of Earth in which these characters lives’ are grounded.  If I hadn’t read up on Wikipedia, I’d have exactly no idea that the Earth on the series is one that has gotten past most of its political problems, and that the Starfleet is about exploration more than making war.  Again, I think this sort of thing can be coupled with one action piece after another, so I don’t know what their excuse is.


Plus, J.J. Abram’s obsession with pregnancy is beginning to get on my last nerve.  There’s an excuse for it on “Lost”, since the island kills pregnant women, but outside of the decent character of Uhura, you’d think the main thing women can do in the “Star Trek” universe is give birth.  I don’t have a problem with the first scene in the movie being Kirk’s birth, or the fact that the main bad guy is motivated by the death of his pregnant wife, or that you actually have Kirk taunt Spock over his mother’s death by indicating you have to love your mother because she gave birth to you (not, you know, because she raised you).  But taken together, it’s tedious, especially since Spock’s poor mother gets like two lines of dialogue before she’s killed.  I don’t know why they bothered paying Winona Ryder to play her, and I also object to Ryder moving into the middle-aged mother role already, since she’s only 6 years older than me. I’m not asking Abrams to completely remake the characters, or do something like they did on “Battlestar Galactica”, and turn some male characters female, so that the stated values of the community line up to the portrayed values.  You can’t get away with that when it comes to “Star Trek”.  But while I loved the character Uhura, I just felt like the portrayal of all other female characters was rubbing your nose in how unimportant women are to this story.

My highest hope for this movie was that it would correct some of the things that drive non-Trekkies away from the franchise: the hokeyness, the pedantic plots and dialogue, and the obviously stupid fake science.  But no.  Apparently, the producers thought these elements were necessary to any Star Trek product.  I think “red matter” should now be the phrase for any magical element in a sci-fi story that tries to pass itself off as science.  Time travel, warp speed, and beaming people?  Okay, all something I can buy could be possible with the right technology.  But red matter was fucking stupid, especially how they used it.  The hokeyness was inexcusable, as well.  A few jokes, okay, but by the end of the movie, they were trying to generate interest by shoving new actors in old roles, without doing anything interesting with those roles, with Simon Pegg as Scotty being the most egregious example. 

Worst was the pedantry.  You’d think that since all politics were drained from the script, you’d at least be spared the pedantry.  But no.  We’re subjected to a tedious moral about how Vulcans need to be more in touch with their emotions, which actually offended me, for two major reasons.  First of all, and call me a cultural relativist all you want, but right after a genocide is not the time to start bagging on a people about how their culture’s value systems are all wrong, particularly when they have a fairly admirable, education-oriented, peace-loving culture.  Second of all, the offensiveness of this is driven home as Kirk taunts Spock about his dead mother in order to take command of the ship.  What we learn from this is that Spock should feel bad about his desire to live by Vulcan values, at least just a little bit.  Meanwhile, I’m stuck on the fact that Kirk is a mega-asshole.

It was a highly entertaining movie, so I’m not saying don’t see it.  But don’t have any expectations for it.  It’s definitely one where turning your brain off makes it go down much easier.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:49 PM • (123) Comments

I think they kind of assume everyone who sees it is a Trekkie.  They don’t want to have to re-establish everything.  Indeed it’s worse for this movie because if the original characters didn’t mean much to you the younger ones would mean even less.

The original Star Trek was more character driven and less TechnoGlitz.  But most movies these days lean too much on the whizz-bangs and not enough on the ‘people’ involved.  At least I think they do. 

I loved it but the way they messed with the timeline was simply weird.  Perhaps that’s what XII in 2011 is supposed to be about.

Comment #1: Magis  on  05/19  at  06:07 PM

I didn’t know that it had been advertised as being accessible to non-trekkies.

Heck, I’m a trekkie and had a moment of WTF because I forgot about Spock Prime’s involvement with the Romulan empire (from The Next Generation). And I still think I’m missing out on something, because I’ve heard that maybe the destruction of Romulus which set up this whole movie was told somewhere—a book series, perhaps?

And if you don’t know about the alter time line’s relationships, some of what occurred in this story would fall really flat.

Comment #2: hp  on  05/19  at  06:08 PM

My highest hope for this movie was that it would correct some of the things that drive non-Trekkies away from the franchise: the hokeyness, the pedantic plots and dialogue, and the obviously stupid fake science.

These kind of comments from non Trek fans really burn my ass. I don’t go around demanding that, say, CSI change to suit me and my tastes. I just don’t watch it. I have nothing against the people who never liked Star Trek. Star Trek doesn’t appeal to them, fine. That doesn’t mean Star Trek needs to change, nor does it mean the non-fans need to change. It means that Star Trek appeals to some people and not to others. How exactly is that a problem?

But in the lead-in to this movie, I’ve seen comment after comment on the Internet from people who never liked Trek saying that it’s about time Star Trek changed to suit their tastes. Let me ask you a question: Why does it matter? Does it bother you that there’s a franchise out there that you don’t like? Because let me tell you, the existence of, to throw out another example, romance novels doesn’t bother me in the least. I don’t want romance novels to try to appeal to me. I just don’t read them.

So enough of this bullshit. No franchise has universal appeal, and there’s nothing wrong with even niche appeal. I don’t think Star Trek is perfect by any means, don’t get me wrong, but the fact that it’s not more like Star Wars is a good thing in my eyes, even if it does make it less popular.

Comment #3: Triplanetary  on  05/19  at  06:11 PM

I loved it but the way they messed with the timeline was simply weird.  Perhaps that’s what XII in 2011 is supposed to be about.

It’s supposed to be a ‘restart’, and they are going to continue forward with stories in this time line, altered off the original.

Remember the evil alter universe from both TOS and TNG? This is a third branch, if you consider Prime Universe branch 1, Evil Alter branch 2, and Romulan-Altered (this) branch 3. They did it to escape from some of the constraints.

Comment #4: hp  on  05/19  at  06:12 PM

Trekkie bash new Start Trek as “fun and watchable”

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/trekkies_bash_new_star_trek_film

I haven’t seen it yet (the bf saw it with his work and the IMAX has been sold out of shows that most sane people would go to - leaving the midnight on a Tuesday shows. Yeah. no.) but the ONLY reason that I want to see it is Simon Pegg.

Comment #5: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/19  at  06:16 PM

I rarely see movies but I am planning to see this one.  However, the only series I watched were TNG and Voyager; not the original.  If this movie relies too much on the original characters, I might be confused when watching it.  I guess I’ll give it a try anyway.

Comment #6: bananacat  on  05/19  at  06:18 PM

The original Star Trek was more character driven and less TechnoGlitz.  But most movies these days lean too much on the whizz-bangs and not enough on the ‘people’ involved.

Well, yes and no…but what most Trekkies forget that the original series was very much rooted in the action adventure genre, with just a bit of philosophy and the alignment of schtick with some primal emotional things.

Comment #7: gwangung  on  05/19  at  06:23 PM

Remember the evil alter universe from both TOS and TNG? This is a third branch, if you consider Prime Universe branch 1, Evil Alter branch 2, and Romulan-Altered (this) branch 3. They did it to escape from some of the constraints.

The next Star Trek series should really be set in the evil alternate universe.

Comment #8: Redshift  on  05/19  at  06:28 PM

catgirl—I don’t think you’ll have much trouble. The movie is about the original characters, but it’s a prequel to the series, so it doesn’t rely on any background that you’re lacking, so it shouldn’t be confusing. You may miss a few emotional connections and inside jokes, but nothing serious.

Comment #9: Redshift  on  05/19  at  06:32 PM

The next Star Trek series should really be set in the evil alternate universe.

That would be excellent, but would SO confuse the general public . . .

Comment #10: hp  on  05/19  at  06:33 PM

I just (and I mean literally just, as in about 10 minutes ago) got back from seeing this.  I tend to not go into movies with very high expectations—generally I just want to be entertained and since I have small children, anytime I can see something not animated is always a plus—but I really enjoyed this.  But, I also love the original series, I’ve seen all the other movies, and I watched TNG and Voyager pretty regularly in high school and college.

But, I do agree that Kirk is a major asshole.  He was in the original (no matter how much I love Shatner, who has embraced the cheesiness) and he is in this too.

Comment #11: ks  on  05/19  at  06:34 PM

i admit that “red matter” was fucking retarded, but i’ve come to accept silly things like this as part and parcel of the star trek universe, whichever reality is concerned.  as a trekkie, i absolutely loved simon pegg as scotty and found the casting overall great.

i don’t know how to even imagine the perspective of a non-trekkie watching this movie at this point, so i won’t pass judgment on anyone else’s evaluation, but i will say that it would be really difficult to catch someone completely ignorant to the trek universe on The State of Everything in a distilled fashion that would fit nicely into a film, especially a film that was trying to be exciting to watch.  just saying.  i hope that some of this stuff comes out in future films, of course, but there is so much other material out there for anyone who is interested in finding out more after seeing the film. 

i’ll also say that i didn’t read the film as discouraging spock from acting well, vulcan. i read it as his personal struggle to reconcile vulcan and human cultures, not really a judgment on the vulcan way of life so much as “spock has to figure out for himself when it’s best for him to act on his more human impulses.” 

pverall, i loved it, and have seen it twice so far.  i really enjoy the beefing up of uhura’s character, so her role is less of what her parody alter-ego tawny madison in “galaxy quest” was—“i just repeat what the computer says!”  also, zachary quinto is hot, but alas, probably not into the laydeez. :(

Comment #12: chareth cutestory  on  05/19  at  06:35 PM

what most Trekkies forget that the original series was very much rooted in the action adventure genre, with just a bit of philosophy

That’s true about the original series, but The Next Generation, which Gene Roddenberry was (I believe) closely involved in—just this time with a budget—stripped away a lot of the “action adventure” aspects to more closely explore the science fiction visions he was interested in.

Also, the tone I got from the scene with Spock “losing his cool” was not that Spock should learn to feel guilty about living with Vulcan values, but rather that he should aknowledge the limits of what he’s capable of and stop trying to be “more vulcan than though” by claiming not to have his judgment clouded be emotion in the wake of the destruction of his planet. A Vulcan more secure in his identity would have been willing to step aside, knowing what his limits of self-control were, while Spock has spent his entire life trying to “prove something” about his Vulcanhood, putting him in denial about his ability to command the ship.

What was sort of a moment of poor filmmaking was how sterile the destruction of Vulcan was (this happened with the destruction of NYC in Watchmen, as well). The filmmakers are fine with depicting the destruction of a planet (cool special effects!) but don’t want anyone to actually see the consequences of it. All of the views of Vulcan, supposedly with billions of people, are completely depopulated. If you want us to understand what Spock is feeling when his planet is destroyed, confront us with billions of people dying. Don’t use it as an excuse to wow the audience with nifty CGI.

Comment #13: Tyro  on  05/19  at  06:36 PM

Won’t disagree with Amanda’s review.  Some other stuff:

I have been calling this movie the love child of Roddenberry & George Lucas.  With a touch of Josh “I’ll fucking kill anyone off if necessary” Whedon as a godparent.  This is not negative criticism, but simple statement of fact.

It’s a very entertaining movie.  Very summer blockbuster.  Watched it twice in theater; borrowed a taped version from bitTorrent so I could have a date with my wife after 3 failed tries to get a night with a sitter.  Parenthood is hard.  But I wonder if Star trek won’t be the Independance Day of the 2010’s. 

The hard-core Trekkies have been howling over Vulcan.  The “fastest” ship was silly.  The Red Matter was total JJ Abrams silly mystical - but imagine the technobabble the previous Star trek films would have used to make black holes happen.  I’d take the red matter.  Considering the Flashing 30-40’s pulp science fiction ethos the movie was trying to create, the movie was pitch perfect.

Comment #14: idiosynchronic  on  05/19  at  06:36 PM

For a movie that shows the genocide of an entire race—-one that’s enshrined in the public consciousness like the Vulcans are, no less—-I felt nothing.

Thank you.  As a Trek fan who has been watching it on television and film since I was 6, I’m happy to see that I wasn’t the only one left feeling rather cold about the movie.  I liked it and found it quite entertaining, but I didn’t love it.  I mostly just couldn’t be moved to feel much about it either way.

I did enjoy the performances (of everybody but Kirk, really) and I liked the fact that the filmmakers were willing to occasionally usurp my expectations with one hand while offering obvious nostalgic shout-outs with the other.  But I came away from it feeling that overall, it was pretty pointless; its only real objective was to clear the ground for a new series of films or television shows without having to live up to the obsessive continuity-checking of the Memory-Alpha crowd.

And Nimoy was given horrible lines.  Almost everything he said was a deliberate throwback to something Spock had said in earlier films, delivered less convincingly.  That’s a damned pity.

But I hate to be too negative about the whole thing.  For a more positive spin from a very good writer, be sure to check out Amy’s review at Incertus.

Comment #15: Cris  on  05/19  at  06:37 PM

I’m something of a Trekkie (meh for Original, loved TNG, liked Voyager, hated DS9, refused to see Enterprise) but I hate “restarts”. Just hate them. I want a series to go forward, especially a space series about exploration and bettering oneself. I mean, how many times do they expect us to obsess over Kirk and navel-gaze about Spock’s emotional dilemmas? I’ve had enough of that for one lifetime, thank you.

Some restarts are ok because they keep the basic shell of the plot but mix the characters up enough to make it seem shiny and new. (Battlestar Galactica, I’m looking at you.)

But pretty much all restarts and prequels are just awful failures for me. I’m also hugely into Star Wars, but those prequels were just awful, in my probably-not-controversial opinion. Move forward. Please. Well, not with Star Wars, actually, because Lucas has ruined it enough and it needs to just be left alone or given custody to someone who will care for the franchise properly. But Star Trek? Move forward.

Anyway, I didn’t much care for Kirk the first time around when I was 10.

Comment #16: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  06:38 PM

Well, yes and no…but what most Trekkies forget that the original series was very much rooted in the action adventure genre, with just a bit of philosophy and the alignment of schtick with some primal emotional things.

That is why this movie is such an odd beast.

They are “rebooting” by grounding these characters in relationships that developed haphazardly over the run of the original series, and then further developed through a fannish collective consciousness. So, we start at the beginning with an assumption of the end.

The movie itself kind of ironically looked at that in several ways: Spock Prime reshaped the universe as it is through his understanding of the universe as it was. Would Kirk Alter and Spock Alter have started down the path to friendship if not for Spock Prime pushing from both sides?

And would Scotty have discovered his algorithm for in-warp transport without the interference of Spock Prime? I HATED that, btw. Spock Prime really took away something from Scotty there. He didn’t even try to first guide Scotty down the path of realization itself, he just gave him the math.

Comment #17: hp  on  05/19  at  06:39 PM

Amanda—I agree about the whole birth thing; I found that pretty annoying, especially since having one (and only one) family on board was a glaring contradiction with the Old Star Trek genre, which made it obvious it was just crammed in for plot purposes.

The stupid science didn’t bother me; for me, it wouldn’t be Star Trek without technobabble.

Comment #18: Redshift  on  05/19  at  06:40 PM

I agree with you that Trek as a series needs to lay off the oh-so-subtle suggestions that Vulcans adopt Earthlings’ somehow-now-monolithic culture. I also agree about the women of Trek...Why exactly did we need to see Uhura in her drawers? The woman is a highly qualified xenolinguist.

However:
1) For a movie that shows the genocide of an entire race—-one that’s enshrined in the public consciousness like the Vulcans are, no less—-I felt nothing.—.....How? When Spock made his entry in the log about being a member of an endangered species…blub. Not to mention Nero’s pain about his own people’s eradication.

2) I’m stuck on the fact that Kirk is a mega-asshole.—This is central to Kirk’s point. He is Captain Asshole, in contrast to the later Captains Middle-Management (Picard), Philosopher (Sisko), Kick-Ass Lady (Janeway, of course), and Bakula (who doesn’t need a nickname). A womanizing, cheating, shoot-em-first asshole who’s not above traumatizing his first officer to gain and keep command. It is the only thing that is truly important to him.

3) I’m pretty sure that regardless of what the movie’s marketers would like to believe, nobody in the real world expects non-Trekkies to sprint to the theater and rave about the movie. If they do, they’re deluded.

All that said, I freaking loved this movie. smile

Comment #19: ErisDiscordia  on  05/19  at  06:43 PM

The movie was too short.  Bottom line.  If you’re looking for long built up character development in a cast nearing a dozen or so respectable actors in a little under two hours, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

I’m not terribly bothered by Red Matter, but I am pissed that they just went off and blew up Vulcan on a lark.  Vulcan isn’t Alderian.  You can’t just nuke it at the middle of the movie to make a point.

That said, the appeal of the original Star Trek’s cultural diversity was more subtle than you realize.  Writing a show in 1960 about a human and an alien (vulcan) on a ship wasn’t nearly as shocking as writing about a white man, a black woman, an chinese guy, a Russian, and a doctor divorce, all aboard the same boat.  They make allusions to racism with Leonard McCoy occasionally making veiled anti-Vulcan comments and James Kirk himself having a fiery hatred for Klingons.  But if you’re looking for heavy handed slap-in-the-face social commentary, you’ve come to the wrong Starship.

Star Trek was first and foremost about hammer fisting laser touting alien guards while wearing color coded jump suites and having your way with a Space Emperor’s nubile young daughter before hopping aboard your Interstellar Space Bus and jetting off the ass end of the universe with all your nerdy friends.

Comment #20: Zifnab  on  05/19  at  06:43 PM

What was sort of a moment of poor filmmaking was how sterile the destruction of Vulcan was (this happened with the destruction of NYC in Watchmen, as well). The filmmakers are fine with depicting the destruction of a planet (cool special effects!) but don’t want anyone to actually see the consequences of it. All of the views of Vulcan, supposedly with billions of people, are completely depopulated. If you want us to understand what Spock is feeling when his planet is destroyed, confront us with billions of people dying. Don’t use it as an excuse to wow the audience with nifty CGI.

Well, visible genocide generally makes the MPAA ratings board, made up of 20 random prudes from the Los Angeles area, get uncomfortable.  I suspect witnessing redshirt Vulcans on the high council get smooshed while running from the temple was probably the most the studio could get away with.

But then, since all that wasn’t enough, they had to fucking kill Mama in a neat execution of the corollary of the ‘Girlfriends in the Refrigerator’ Plot rule.

Comment #21: idiosynchronic  on  05/19  at  06:48 PM

Haha I’m actually not a Trekkie by any stretch of the imagination, but I enjoy Star Trek and its character-driven stories.  I fully enjoyed the movie whether or not I knew every little detail.  Just like Amanda said, if there was something with which I wasn’t too familiar, I could always check Wikipedia.  That’s the joy of having the Internet.

Comment #22: ArchangelChuck  on  05/19  at  06:48 PM

Since when have Star Trek movies been good, anyway? wink

Comment #23: Doug S.  on  05/19  at  06:49 PM

Criticizing this film relative to how close it does or doesn’t hew to the original series is misguided. Abrams has said all along that he didn’t grow up watching Star Trek and doesn’t consider himself a fan, so it was pretty much inevitable that he’d miss the boat on what made the franchise work under Roddenberry.

I enjoyed the movie, but it did feel a bit…flat…to me. The level of my emotional and intellectual involvement in the plot was virtually zero, and as I look back, it really does seem more like a vehicle to rehash old characters rather than an attempt to make a film that stands on its own feet. It felt a whole lot more like a Next Generation movie (which all pretty much suck) than an original-series movie (which are all at least watchable, if not downright good).

Comment #24: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/19  at  06:50 PM

Addendum:  The only thing that disappointed me about the movie was the severe lack of real Trekkies to make fun of.  I expected a lot more nasally ejaculations like, “Oh my god that didn’t happen!!!  THIS SUCKS!”

Comment #25: ArchangelChuck  on  05/19  at  06:50 PM

Tyro—agree completely about Vulcan. The entire purpose of the destruction of Vulcan, in my view, was to cement the idea that this is a different timeline. At least, I found myself thinking “wait a minute, they can’t do that!...” It then got used for some emotional purposes, but it didn’t particularly work, because Vulcan had suffered from “there are only ten people in the world” syndrome.

On the other hand, as far as being sterile, it’s not much worse than the destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars. The difference is you’re not really expected to care about that, except in establishing what a monster Darth Vader is.

Comment #26: Redshift  on  05/19  at  06:51 PM

As someone who preferred the shreds I’ve seen of the original series to any of the uberpacifist, progressive the-future-has-no-internal-conflict-or-prejudice spinoffs, I think I loved this movie for its baggage, not in spite of. I suppose I’d rather see people struggling towards utopia while sometimes being stupid jerks within their own society than see people who think they’ve arrived in utopia and just need to explain it clearly to all the other aliens. (I wish BSG had been around when I still had my adolescent tolerance for Space Violence; I think it would have changed my life.)

Comment #27: purpleshoes  on  05/19  at  06:52 PM

It felt a whole lot more like a Next Generation movie (which all pretty much suck) than an original-series movie (which are all at least watchable, if not downright good).

We are going to have a fight about this, I can tell. smile

Except I have to go home now. Ugh. I’m sure someone else will do battle for me on behalf of TNG movie merits as compared with OS movies. I mean, TNG has Borg. That alone is a plus. Geez.

Comment #28: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  06:53 PM

hp:

And would Scotty have discovered his algorithm for in-warp transport without the interference of Spock Prime? I HATED that, btw. Spock Prime really took away something from Scotty there. He didn’t even try to first guide Scotty down the path of realization itself, he just gave him the math.

Well, Spock Prime does have the knowledge that Scotty did the same thing to the inventor of transparent aluminum in Star Trek: Save the Whales. wink (Yes, I am a huge geek.)

Comment #29: Redshift  on  05/19  at  06:54 PM

A good post I found about the progressiveness of TOS versus the reboot is here, and makes for good reading, as well.

Comment #30: XtinaS  on  05/19  at  06:55 PM

Favorite in-joke in the movie: When the team is named to go on the dangerous mission to the drill platform, consisting of Kirk, Sulu, and some guy you’ve never heard of. And the third guy’s spacesuit is red.

Comment #31: Redshift  on  05/19  at  06:57 PM

And would Scotty have discovered his algorithm for in-warp transport without the interference of Spock Prime?

...but maybe Scotty was the one who invented transparent aluminum?  (Holds mouse to face) Computer?

Comment #32: Lefty  on  05/19  at  06:59 PM

Redshift:

Favorite in-joke in the movie: When the team is named to go on the dangerous mission to the drill platform, consisting of Kirk, Sulu, and some guy you’ve never heard of. And the third guy’s spacesuit is red.

That’s hardly an in-joke anymore.

Frankly, I was pretty disappointed that they didn’t switch it up and not kill the redshirt. That would have been funny.

Comment #33: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/19  at  07:00 PM

Tri, sorry, it’s just a quality issue.  I’m not saying mainstream it.  Just make it better—-pedantry isn’t good story-telling.  Hokeyness isn’t good story-telling.  Sorry.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/19  at  07:03 PM

Well, Spock Prime does have the knowledge that Scotty did the same thing to the inventor of transparent aluminum in Star Trek: Save the Whales. wink (Yes, I am a huge geek.)

Oh, I have fallen asleep several times trying to watch that movie.

Probably why I missed this.

Comment #35: hp  on  05/19  at  07:09 PM

I loved the movie, and we went back to see it a second time. Sure, it’s flawed, but I expected to BE one of the Trekkers shouting “NO!” and found myself having very few problems.

Other than some WTF moments with the engineering (these things are in SPACE, not an industrial processing plant!), I had relatively few problems with it.

One was Uhura walking up to Spock, and Starfleet cadet to Commander, tell him “I thought you liked me! Give me the ship assignment I want!” I would far rather have had her have a professional qualification that was needed and having her point it out, rather than stomp her foot and pout. Bad writing.

The other was the ending. NO military organization is going to that kind of promotion. I would much rather have had the award ceremony, followed to a flash screen of “5 years later” and then the end exactly as shown.

The thing with Spock short circuiting Scotty’s future equations worked for me - he needed to get Kirk and Scotty back to the Enterprise to try to save Earth. Cheating him out of the satisfaction of figuring it out for himself doesn’t really matter in context.

Comment #36: Lymis  on  05/19  at  07:10 PM

I enjoyed it despite most of its flaws but what bothered me most was the dynamic that made the original Trek interesting was missing. In the original series Kirk is constantly pulled between the passionate, moralistic McCoy character and the cold, rational Spock character.  What he takes from either character to resolve the plot is often the driving force of the show.

While I was relieved by the absence of Next Generation technobabble, a lot of the really bad science of the movie could’ve been improved on without compromising much of the plot or pace.  There is something theoretically like the ridiculous “red matter” of the movie called strange matter. Strange matter is an analog of the atoms you find on the periodic element except that the nucleus is composed entirely of strange quarks, so it is much denser than it’s normal nucleic matter counterparts. It’s been theorized that strange matter can grow by exposure to neutron radiation, converting atoms around it into more strange matter.  It would not have sucked Vulcan down a black hole but would’ve have compacted the planet down and extinguished all life.

Comment #37: pablo  on  05/19  at  07:12 PM

Amanda,

While some of your criticisms are valid (and some are not) I think you missed the point of what this movie was trying to accomplish: a reintroduction to the main characters in a scenario which allows them to go forward in future films and tell stories not necessarily constrained by forty years of “canon” Star Trek.  That’s all this film was really trying to do, and to have focused on a plot which told the “utopian” future of Earth and the Federation (which incidentally is a topic in which even the old Trek canon had remarkably large lacunae) or else some topical “hot button” issue was simply surplus to requirements at this juncture.

Comment #38: Felix Culpa  on  05/19  at  07:14 PM

Favorite in-joke in the movie:

Whatever.  The best in-joke in that movie was Kirk making it with the green skinned Uhura roommate.  Because Captain Kirk likes himself the aliens.

Comment #39: Zifnab  on  05/19  at  07:16 PM

I don’t know where people get the idea that the elder Kirk’s wife was the only family on board the Kelvin, since supposedly 800 people were rescued.  I’d guess a lot of people had loved ones.

Red Matter is stupid and unexplained, but it makes more sense than dilithium, inertial dampening fields, and transporter technology.  I’m willing to let the fiction part of science fiction take precedence, especially since it still makes more sense than the Force.

The original characters are archetypical by now, and I’m glad new actors are taking over.  That’s something the other series tried, but didn’t have the guts (or the Roddenberry Estate approval) to do.  Star Trek is like Shakespeare in a way: choose a favorite Hamlet, the best Othello, and the rest.  Likewise, I think Karl Urban’s Bones was awesome, I hope Uhura and Spock have fun together until Nurse Chapel comes along, Sulu does a lot more fencing, Chekhov enjoys mangling his wubbulu’s, and other fun is had.  I enjoyed the movie, hope for many more, and really like the fact that those original characters are the point of the movie and the plot is just there to get them to do their thing.

Simon Pegg was awesome, by the way.  Spock was too wooden, which is just the way I like him.  And Kirk was the arrogant asshole I always knew to be there.  I was disappointed that he didn’t cheat the test with better programming or some better way to beat the Klingons, wished the Romulans had better lighting aboard their mining ship, and wanted some explanations of miniskirts.  I also wonder why people who fly around in spaceships don’t wear clothing with life preservers for outer space.  You’d think someone could make a hood that comes out of those jumpsuits and have a pocket of air to last a minute or two, but Nooooo.  That would be like wearing a bicycle helmet or something.

Comment #40: 3letterjon  on  05/19  at  07:17 PM

Well, yes and no…but what most Trekkies forget that the original series was very much rooted in the action adventure genre, with just a bit of philosophy and the alignment of schtick with some primal emotional things.

Well….yes and no.  TOS went out of its way to explore the problems of sexism and racism (specism?) and war.  They were always full of moral dilemas.  They almost always had a ‘lesson.’

Comment #41: Magis  on  05/19  at  07:17 PM

The thing that made me smile the hardest was that Spock got the girl.  But again, I really like that actor.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/19  at  07:24 PM

I think you missed the point of what this movie was trying to accomplish: a reintroduction to the main characters in a scenario which allows them to go forward in future films and tell stories not necessarily constrained by forty years of “canon” Star Trek.

That’s exactly the point I got, and in my opinion that’s a pretty weak hook to hang a whole movie on.  If you have a good story to tell, why not tell it in this film, instead of using this film as nothing more than an announcement of your intention to eventually tell a good story?

Comment #43: Cris  on  05/19  at  07:28 PM

i also felt like the destruction of vulcan was purposely to draw a major distinction from the star trek reality as we know it and this new version.  part of what made it so disturbing to me was how fast it was and how sterile—that to me made it like, more emotional, because it’s there and then one minute it’s just GONE.  but in real life catastrophes, things often move fast and you don’t really have time to process loss as events are unfolding.  that’s how this movie went—it was fast-paced and no one had time to fully deal with the fact that a whole fucking planet (a founding federation member planet, no less, not some disposable “red shirt” version of a planet) was just destroyed until the danger is over. 

amanda, i think you might like the next generation tv episodes more.  it’s not pedantry-free, but it’s less action-oriented, with the character development happening over time.

Comment #44: chareth cutestory  on  05/19  at  07:28 PM

Felix, they may be trying to do that, but it’s a bad idea.  I really hate it when movies skip over plot and theme in order to introduce characters, on the theory that they’re setting up a franchise.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/19  at  07:29 PM

Thank you, Amanda.

I saw it with a bunch of people who loved it, so I had no ability to flesh out all the things that crawled up my ass in the movie theater and have been rotting away ever since. You nailed most of the stuff on my not-yet-fully-materialized list.

Yeah, really disappointing. But fun and entertaining. JJ Abrams, what do you know.

Comment #46: humanadverb  on  05/19  at  07:32 PM

I thought it was…OK.  A plot-empty reboot of the series, and clever at doing *that*.  Certainly, I am going to be bummed out if the Federation in the next one is not RADICALLY DIFFERENT from the original Federation.  Because the two pillars of the Federation are Earth and Vulcan, and one of them is gone.  The history of the Federation as I understood it was one of accretion around the Earth-Vulcan axis.

Comment #47: Mandos  on  05/19  at  07:35 PM

Nerd minutia:

Star Fleet was originally a defense force, not a force of exploration. Remember all the military-science tension in Wrath of Khan? Star Fleet was a fleet of warships prior to The Next Generation (until the sixth movie, actually).

This was a major plot point in the sixth Star Trek movie, Undiscovered Country, because a lasting peace with the Klingons threatened to defund/marginalize the military bureaucracy of Star Fleet. Not to give away any plot points, but by the time the Next Generation rolls around, Star Fleet retains its defense force role, but has massively expanded roles in science and exploration. It’s almost like J Edgar Hoover was Star Fleet’s arch-admiral.

Also, I’d quibble with the description of the original series as holding up a lot of bad science. Sure, they are way out there making shit up (“Tachyons”, using “Quantum Singularities” to fuel Romulan warbirds), but treknobabble is not the same thing as bad science. It is science-ish imagination. Star Trek has been pretty good about not violating or rewriting the laws of science as I understand them, like the Matrix did with Conservation of Energy. Because the Wackowskis are illiterate trolls.

The Red Matter was an elegant plot device, kinda like how they never made any treknobabble effort to explain the Genesis Wave. At the same time, they could have done a better job with that. Treknobabble is a part of the franchise, just like Red Shirts.

Comment #48: humanadverb  on  05/19  at  07:43 PM

The best in-joke was the way NewKirk crosses his legs when he sits down in the captain’s chair, knee over knee, the way Shatner always did.  Men don’t sit that way for the most part, and if you are as big an TOS dork as I am it was hilarious to see.

Unfortunately I could barely see it through the lens flare.

Seriously, I liked that newKirk is an unalloyed asshole.  It plays nicely into the whole “raised by his evil uncle Frank” alternate childhood.  I especially enjoyed the fact that while he is every bit as smart and probably as nerdy as the original Kirk he isn’t as open about his scholarly pursuits, but will bust out with the learnin’ if it might impress a pretty cadet. 

It is annoying that there were no female characters of note aside from Uhura.  Hopefully now that the core team has been assembled they can add to the roster in the second film.

Comment #49: Andy  on  05/19  at  07:43 PM

Zifnab: Okay, that was also the best.

Comment #50: Redshift  on  05/19  at  07:47 PM

Also, Kirk never really “got the girl.” He’s prowling id. Conan in space, according to my friend, who totally hits the nail on the head. He’s a man-slut who gets tons of action, but his orientation is always towards his ship, not towards “getting” the girl in any kind of relationship sense.

His entrance to the bridge in the last scene of the movie summed this up pretty spectacularly, I thought. “I’m here to fix the cable.”

I liked that Spock and Uhura hooked up, though. Rewatching TOS season 1, Uhura totally had a thing for Spock. It was a nice way to build on that.

Comment #51: humanadverb  on  05/19  at  07:48 PM

Not to nerd out too much, but what bugged me about the red matter was this: if a small drop of it could take out Vulcan, then how come blowing up the entire giant ball of it didn’t make a black hole that ate up the universe?  In fact, it didn’t seem that much bigger than the one that ate up Vulcan, and it couldn’t have been, or else the Enterprise would have been sucked in immediately, on top of all nearby galaxies.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/19  at  07:56 PM

I think your problem is a good reason to have spent some treknobabble time on that point.

The answer to your question, though, is that Red Matter is a subatomic catalyst which influences the gravitational field of Normal Matter with which it becomes involved. It is an ideal planet-killing weapon because it creates a rolling cascade as the initial exposure creates a black hole that continues to grow, consuming nearby matter. The amount of Red Matter involved really doesn’t matter much. Simultaneously, the vortex which ate the Romulan ship was entirely based on its own super-condensed mass. This is also why the gravitational impact on the Enterprise increased after the entire ship was consumed.

</bullshit>

(Although, the final shoot-out is an example of bad science. Whether a given amount of mass is or isn’t a black hole has nothing to do with its gravitational pull, which is a function of mass and distance. You can get closer to a black hole than you can to an equivalent mass which isn’t super-dense, which is why the gravitational effects are amplified. So, Vulvan’s core is seeded with a black hole, and it WILL disappear. It won’t have any effect on the surrounding solar system, nor any orbiting ships.)

Comment #53: humanadverb  on  05/19  at  08:06 PM

Vulvan? 

ha, were you hoping for a much sexier reboot?

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  05/19  at  08:35 PM

Oh yeah, Redshift…. the minute I spotted him, I thought. “dead man”.  Suppose that’s how he’s listed in the credits?

I saw Trek opening night in a packed house, and the audience loved it.  I particularly got a kick out of the loud, “Oooohhh” that would come forth every time the movie hit one of the touchpoints of the original series (“Damnit, Jim…”).

Comment #55: NobleExperiments  on  05/19  at  08:42 PM

Amanda, I think the little Vulcan ship’s large amount of red matter was needed to offset the amount of matter in the star that went supernova.  A planet is a little thing compared to a star, so I figured that was okay after thinking it over for a bit.  Still, it’s unexplained stuff, so maybe it’s not going to allow a simple volume measurement to determine the amount needed to undo the star going kabloowie.  As for why it didn’t suck up the Enterprise?  Well, duh.

It’s because Kirk’s ego had an event horizon just about equal to the black hole.  I may not know my physics, but I know Star Trek.

Comment #56: 3letterjon  on  05/19  at  08:52 PM

I thought it was…OK.  A plot-empty reboot of the series, and clever at doing *that*.  Certainly, I am going to be bummed out if the Federation in the next one is not RADICALLY DIFFERENT from the original Federation.  Because the two pillars of the Federation are Earth and Vulcan, and one of them is gone.

And, further, the Federation has access to a store of high technology and priceless intelligence stored in Spock Prime’s noggin.  Consider how mysterious the Romulans were in the original timeline, and that Spock can not only tell the Federation where they are, but the vulnerabilities of their weapons systems and teh names of their leaders.

I wonder if they’ll play on that or make it simply go away.

Comment #57: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/19  at  09:10 PM

I haven’t seen it yet but I just have to remark on this sentence in the review: Plus, J.J. Abram’s obsession with pregnancy is beginning to get on my last nerve.  There’s an excuse for it on “Lost”, since the island kills pregnant women… That is very funny! Didn’t he create the killer island?

Comment #58: Chester  on  05/19  at  09:13 PM

“The next Star Trek series should really be set in the evil alternate universe.”

That would be excellent, but would SO confuse the general public . . .

Pfft.  Just put everybody in goatees and eyeliner, and everybody will be able to follow along.

“Favorite in-joke in the movie: When the team is named to go on the dangerous mission to the drill platform, consisting of Kirk, Sulu, and some guy you’ve never heard of. And the third guy’s spacesuit is red.”

It’s not really an in-joke unless his name is “Guy.”

Comment #59: preying mantis  on  05/19  at  09:21 PM

The thing that made me smile the hardest was that Spock got the girl.  But again, I really like that actor.

This made me grin as well.  There was something very sweet about their relationship.

I saw this movie on a lazy afternoon while playing hooky from work.  Given that context, I was probably overwhelmingly predisposed to enjoy myself.  I liked the movie, but what really surprised me was how funny it was.  That was really unexpected.

Comment #60: LauraB  on  05/19  at  09:31 PM

Well, I’m a giant sci-fi nerd. And I really liked this movie. I liked the new special effects. I liked the new actors. I liked the fan service. I liked Asshole Kirk. I want them to make more movies and/or a TV show from this new timeline.

Maybe if you adjusted the phase variance of your sense of humor, you’d appreciate treknobabble more. Also, if I recall correctly, the era of TOS is not yet the Utopian era of Next Gen. For one thing, they’re at war with the Klingons.

Comment #61: Entomologista  on  05/19  at  09:31 PM

I’m sure someone else will do battle for me on behalf of TNG movie merits as compared with OS movies. I mean, TNG has Borg. That alone is a plus. Geez.
Essie Elephant on 05/19 at 01:53 PM

I’m sorry, Essie. I’m afraid I can’t do that.

Now the best (least sucky) TNG movie did have Borg, and that was a help. But not enough. Just compare even First Contact with any NG or Voyager episode with Borg.

They did a fair number of 2-part episodes, mostly season-end cliffhangers; any of them, Borg or no Borg, are better than any Trek movie after The Voyage Home.

I had very high hopes for the first TNG movie. All of them have at best fallen flat—that has been the usual problem; there just isn’t much there there. Though sometimes, as with the last one (see, I can’t even remember their damn names!) they are also gratuitously nasty as well.

I’m not sure what the problem has been.

Comment #62: Mark Foxwell  on  05/19  at  09:33 PM

I was also disturbed by the “quick and sterile” destruction of Vulcan—and that’s the whole fucking point, you stupid nerds! In the future, we will be able to destroy whole planets with less time and effort than it takes to get a pizza delivered! Press a button and it’s gone—with no messy leftovers to clean up. Only a true monster (like the Romulan villain) would not be disturbed by the cold simplicity of this catastrophic process. Get it?

Sorry there wasn’t enough gratuitous gore and violence to help you to feel some empathy for Spock’s loss. I guess if Superman or Star Wars ever get remade they’ll need to intercut the destruction of Krypton and Alderaan with some scary 9/11 footage (or perhaps that soldier searching for his arm in Saving Private Ryan). Otherwise, how will the audience know how they are supposed to feel?

And by the way. The film is not suggesting that Spock is “wrong” to supress his emotions and adhere to strict Vulcan logic. It simply recognizes the essential fact that he is also half human and should not disregard the potential value of his own emotions—or believe that solutions can only be found through logic. Spock is reminded of this lesson countless times throughout his life—usually as the result of some bold, intuitive action by Kirk that saves the day. One of the many cool aspects of this new film is that we now see exactly how this education began (young Spock) and how it ends (old Spock). They even get together at the end of the film and compare notes.

Bottom line, this is a great movie—incredibly entertaining and far more intelligent than the vast majority of recent sci-fi films. All the criticisms I’ve read amount to nothing more than lame nit-picking (You got a problem with Red Matter? Really?) from people who seem bitter at everyone else’s enjoyment of something they don’t quite understand. I’m very happy I’m not one of those poor, miserable souls, because this movie kicks ass!

Live long and prosper, nerds.

Comment #63: Amazing Larry  on  05/19  at  09:42 PM

Loved it, seen it twice, totally Trekkie.  Scottie, Spock, and Uhura ROCKED. I thought Kirk was the most subtle performance. He really nails it a couple times but it’s less obvious because it’s not Bones, you know?

Anyway there’s so much I could say, of course, but I’ll just say 3letterjon, the discussion about families on the ship is because when Next Gen starts that is a new big thing.  They were there before, so they shouldn’t be on the Kelvin.

AND THEY WEREN’T.

Redshift says “Amanda—I agree about the whole birth thing; I found that pretty annoying, especially since having one (and only one) family on board was a glaring contradiction with the Old Star Trek genre, which made it obvious it was just crammed in for plot purposes.”

So the only conclusion to be reached is that she is a pregnant member of the crew who went into labor while serving.

Also, on Uhura, Lymis says, “One was Uhura walking up to Spock, and Starfleet cadet to Commander, tell him “I thought you liked me! Give me the ship assignment I want!” I would far rather have had her have a professional qualification that was needed and having her point it out, rather than stomp her foot and pout. Bad writing.”

NO, she didn’t. She speaks to her qualifications and the point is that she should have been assigned to the Enterprise, but Spock was afraid it would look like favoritism. That’s what she’s having none of.

What I find most interesting is that more than once I’ve read someone discuss a story point with Uhura saying she’s being one way, when she’s totally being the other way. Someone in a thread said that no one listened to her when she decoded the Klingon distress call, but then they listened to Kirk - which is totally not what happened.  So frustrating.  They’ve got her kicking ass and then people switch it around in their heads and complain about it.

Comment #64: lizriz  on  05/19  at  09:59 PM

Doh!  I meant to say “They WEREN’T there before, so they shouldn’t be on the Kelvin. “

Comment #65: lizriz  on  05/19  at  10:00 PM

Sure, they are way out there making shit up (“Tachyons”, using “Quantum Singularities” to fuel Romulan warbirds), ...
ha on 05/19 at 02:43 PM

Actually, ha, these two are among the more plausible bits of “Treknobabble!”

There is by no means any evidence whatsoever that tachyons actually exist, but I don’t think they have been ruled out yet, and the Trek franchise hardly made them up. As a speculative possibility, they were dreamed up by tenured theoretical physicists, I believe (sorry, I refuse to do research tonight, have to go to bed soon and this stuff would keep me up…) probably in the 1950s.

(At any rate, Gregory Benford’s SF novel Timescape has a physicist at La Jolla looking for them in the early 1960s—and he finds them (turns out they are beamed messages from the future (1990s; later he and his colleagues find more messages from starships much farther out, in both space and time…)

I don’t suppose if I tried to analyze how the “tachyons” they talk about in Trek are supposed to behave they would correspond at all well to the current theories about them. Nor do I suppose they make much coherent sense. But just dropping the name is totally OK.

And while I was once a serious physics student, at a tough and serious school, I’m afraid I have no clue whether “quantum singularities” is a valid concept or not, still less whether they could be a power source—but it all seems plausible enough to me that QS might have something to do with tapping zero-point energy—which bit of technobabble again is not just something the Stargate franchise made up; it’s a respectable speculation in theoretical physics.

Of course I did hear tell at Caltech that success in tapping zero-point energy might entail the risk of destroying the entire universe—essentially we’d be upsetting the stability, analogous to water frozen into ice, of our universe’s established (frozen) physical constants, and allowing it to “fall” into a lower energy state—so tapping it might trigger a cascade that would propagate—conservatively, at the speed of light (and if you want to speculate even more wildly, faster if the light speed limit itself gets changed…) as an energy shockwave, leaving a new Big Bang in its wake.

(If anyone else here will ever admit to having read Cerebus, I wondered if that’s where the Regency Elf came from—she was a survivor of a previous universe, you see, and a little batty because she had to wait several billion years for life to evolve to talk to again…this was all before Dave Sim apparently went completely nuts).

Well anyway in Trek, those QS power plants do have weird drawbacks; apparently the Romulans use them because they are compatible with cloaking devices. When they don’t blow up completely anyway.

Sort of the Trekverse’s answer to German Zeppelins in WWI, lifted as they were with hydrogen…

Comment #66: Mark Foxwell  on  05/19  at  10:18 PM

“the only conclusion to be reached is that she is a pregnant member of the crew who went into labor while serving”

llizriz, the other possibility is that she was just a passenger.  Civilian passengers on warships during peacetime is not an unusual occurrence.  It’s also established in ST canon that people linked in to the federation somehow (diplomat, science or medical services, etc.) are given rides on starships if it is necessary.  Me, I just assumed that she was on one station and Kelvin was permitted to pick her up because of Lt. Kirk being a senior officer on the ship.  No other families or children were visible.

The other was the ending. NO military organization is going to that kind of promotion.

Lymis, ST has often been all over the map on how and where promotions are handed out.  Sometimes they attorn to conventional military norms, sometimes they lean towards the “out there the captain gets a lot of leeway” parameters of the RN in the days of sail, sometimes they present it as a meritocracy other times as a place where careerism does matter.  I think suffice to say that in the real world even saving planet earth wouldn’t prevent Kirk from suddenly finding himself saying “yes sir!” to some smooth, well-connected, desk-riding staff johnny who has the right ear of the right admiral to get such a sweet slot on the shiny new flagship now that Pike is safely disabled.

Oh, and just a thing on continuity.  The film-makers established that this was a different timeline from the get-go with the iconic SF insignia on the uniforms.  IIR the established canon correctly, that arrow shape was just the original Kirk Enterprise, but its achievements were so sterling that it was adapted for all other ships.  If the Kelvin is tooling around space 25 (or 36 in canon) years before there’s even a Captain Kirk and about 20 odd years before even a bolt is in the Enterprise then it stands to reason that a different timeline is at work before Nero started fiddling (sorry) with space/time.

Comment #67: seeker6079  on  05/19  at  10:26 PM

Just one further thought on SF promotions.  About the closest they ever came to believable was TNG’s “The Best of Both Worlds”, where favouritism for command is openly discussed.  Riker is a flyer, always ahead of everybody, the wildly successful XO of the flagship, and admiring admirals ‘keep pulling the chair out’ for him.  His refusal to command a ship actually ballses up the promotion expectations of other promising flyers and this is used to explain why rapidly-rising Cdr. Shelby dislikes him and holds him in disdain.  (Oh, and why is Shelby in line for such a command?  She’s the key, right-hand staffer of the ranking command admiral.)

Logic doesn’t enter into it.  Picard would have been an admiral or out, Riker a captain or out, and Data a captain as well.  Only Worf’s career (steady promotion over years of achievement, staggered postings [ship then “shore” station then back to ships]) fits a conventional model.

Comment #68: seeker6079  on  05/19  at  10:32 PM

far more intelligent than the vast majority of recent sci-fi films.

Not that I disagree, but talk about damning with faint praise…

Comment #69: Tyro  on  05/19  at  10:48 PM

Actually I think the Red Matter might have been a sly nod to the obscure technological plot devices, usually in the form of a doomsday weapon, that evil doers always sport in sci-fi movies.  Sure, it might just have been lame story telling, but it is so obtuse that I’ll give JJ the benefit of the doubt.

Comment #70: Andy  on  05/19  at  11:00 PM

Amazing Larry, not only do I disagree with your assessment, but your argument is so dripping with self-righteousness that it only accentuates the degree to which you are completely wrong.

Comment #71: Tyro  on  05/19  at  11:07 PM

Tyro, he does have a point.  I just goofed up in ordering a pizza online and destroyed Vega 9. 

I feel kinda bad about it, truth be told.

Comment #72: seeker6079  on  05/19  at  11:14 PM

Nerd minutia:

Star Fleet was originally a defense force, not a force of exploration. Remember all the military-science tension in Wrath of Khan? Star Fleet was a fleet of warships prior to The Next Generation (until the sixth movie, actually).

This was a major plot point in the sixth Star Trek movie, Undiscovered Country, because a lasting peace with the Klingons threatened to defund/marginalize the military bureaucracy of Star Fleet….
ha on 05/19 at 02:43 PM

Actually, I think you have that backwards.

Roddenberry often talked about his general vision of the future underlying the Original Series, and eventually the franchise fleshed out a timeline.

Then Enterprise blew it all to hell, but they did get a few things right (by which I mean here, consistent with both the general timeline and the broader vision most fans have shared with Roddenberry).

Earth goes through terrible self-destructive wars and related catastrophes, but we pull our own act together, learn from our mistakes, and create a humane, sustainable, optimistic and progressive world society, then resume space exploration, with warp drives.

One thing Enterprise got right IMHO was that early Starfleet was a lot more like the Coast Guard than a Navy. They could and did sometimes get into battles, to protect humans in space, but their big job was to assist those human spacefarers and colonists and to break trail for them. No hostile aliens were known to threaten Earth nor did early exploration turn them up.

(One thing Enterprise did wrong, wrong, UR DOIN IT RONG! was begin with a visitor from the Klingon homeworld—and then had the new ship pop over to Q’oronos and back in the course of a single two-hour episode, taking the scenic route and stopping to ask for directions too. A hundred years before the Original Series era, even the fastest Terran ship should have been far too slow. Thus, Klingons, Orion pirates, and other canon threats should generally have been far too far away, given available technology, to pose any systematic threat).

One thing Enterprise did right though, was to show the gradual , generally reluctant, militarization of Starfleet.

Another thing they did right was the very thing Amanda tells us JJ Adams blew in the new movie—gradual increase in mutual understanding between humans and Vulcans. One of the many things I hated about “Broken Arrow” (Enterprise‘s opening episode) was the hatred Archer and Trip had for Vulcans, but the show eventually clarified what the difference was between Vulcan culture as it was then and what it became in TOS era.

My supposition has long been that Starfleet generally always did see themselves as first, explorers and scientists, second, as Boy Scouts in space out to make friends by being helpful, and only third as a fighting force. BUT as humanity sprawled out from Earth (in starships much slower than the TOS era, generally making one-way colonizing voyages and often getting out of contact with the core society) many sub-societies formed (as well as new alliances, perhaps of a local character, with other spacefaring species) and some of these outposts got into serious wars with less friendly aliens. So out along certain frontiers, some perhaps years out of communications with the Terran/Vulcan core, militaristic societies arose and in those regions, Starfleet did indeed get militarized. And eventually, in the generation just before TOS in fact (that is, the very years this movie is set in) the wars, by now certainly involving the Klingons, blew up into a big thing comparable to WWII in the 20th century. And so the Starfleet Kirk joins is indeed militarized (but also retains memory of, and I imagine certain subcultures of, its original peaceful mission).

Sometime during the big war, probably instrumental with resolving it, Federation technology makes some big breakthroughs resulting in faster ships (and subspace radio—there are lots of reasons, based on TOS, to deny that Starfleet had any such thing 100 years before, another case of Enterprise DOIN IT RONG!). Thus, the Federation society of TOS is a giddy era—a bunch of peoples who used to be far away from each other are suddenly in each other’s laps, much as the Earth was transformed in the aftermath of WWII by sudden advances in transport technology—combined, as it is in my speculative Trek future history, with a new “global” (or interstellar) political order.

So subjectively the Federation in the 2260s would be a lot like the 1960s in America.

Had Adams used some such future history, the new movie would be set in the middle, more or less, of the big nasty war.

Roddenberry, I believe (though I may be much mistaken in this) served in WWII, in the Navy, as a young man just as Kirk would be in my scenario.

I think a lot of story could be told in that frame that need not involve any planetary genocides.

Comment #73: Mark Foxwell  on  05/19  at  11:16 PM

I think that we can all agree that Quinto wins a major award for the scene where he rejects entrance to the Vulcan Science Academy:  The Best Performance in Saying Fuck You Without Actually Using The Phrase.

Comment #74: seeker6079  on  05/19  at  11:16 PM

Captains Middle-Management (Picard), Philosopher (Sisko)

I believe you have these two reversed.  Picard was the philosopher king traveling the stars and willing to blow up his own ship to prove a philosophical point.  Sisko was a builder trying to create something and manage a situation that spiraled out of control every sweeps period.

Comment #75: Allen  on  05/19  at  11:49 PM

seeker6079, I loved that scene. :D Especially because it is canon and something I’d forgotten about until I saw it.

The plot didn’t do much for me, but for me the movie was about the characters, not the plot, anyway. I thought Quinto’s Spock rocked, and loved the Spock/Uhura relationship. OMG Kirk was a jerkass, though. I suppose he’s meant to be, and he did have a harder childhood in this version of the story, but still—asshat. But then again I did always have way more of a thing for both Spock and McCoy than Kirk. New!McCoy was cool, but I wish he had more screentime. New!Chekov was hilarious and cute. And “I have been, and always shall be, your friend” made me grin, even though it confused poor Kirk and I think Spock Prime wouldn’t have said that without any context—unless, I guess, he was rattled from just seeing his planet destroyed.

As for whether the destruction of Vulcan was emotional enough or not—I am still in shock over that, I think. I haven’t quite let myself believe that THEY BLEW UP VULCAN. You can’t blow up Vulcan! Vulcan is important! Like Mandos says upthread, Earth and Vulcan are the two pillars of the Federation. I…don’t know if I can handle a universe without Vulcan. IF they treat that seriously in the sequels and show that they know how important Vulcan was and that the whole future history of the galaxy will be different without it…well, maybe I can forgive them. But still. HOLY CRAP THEY BLEW UP VULCAN. And killed off Amanda Greyson. :’(

Anyway—enjoyed it very much. Still want more & better Trek in future. Wished there were more women, and that Uhura got to kick a little more ass. WTF’d heartily over bald Romulans—they didn’t even seem very Romulan to me in general, just scary guys with the name slapped on. Still enjoyed it, though.

And yes: I do want stories from the far end of the prime!universe Trek canon, too. 2387 or whenever Spock Prime is from…I loved DS9 and Voyager and some (some!) of the later TNG movies, and want to know more about that story. But I don’t think we’ll get that for a long time, if ever, outside of licensed novels.

All in all, I’ll probably be seeing it again.

Comment #76: Nenya  on  05/19  at  11:56 PM

We’re subjected to a tedious moral about how Vulcans need to be more in touch with their emotions…

Not in the print of the movie I saw.

Comment #77: Prodigal  on  05/20  at  12:29 AM

“I think “red matter” should now be the phrase for any magical element in a sci-fi story that tries to pass itself off as science. “

There’s already a term for this: Applied Phlebotinum.

Comment #78: The Cynic Sage  on  05/20  at  12:58 AM

I have no real insights to this movie.  The fact that I got up and walked out upon the playing of “Sabotage” is my review.  I had to… break things…  It was ugly.  I

My biggest problem?  That JJ Abrams had to be such a dick about distancing his crap from Trek.  To add insult to injury, he also tried to suck it into his stupid little universe by having Uhura order a fucking Slusho.  Seriously?  Before I found that out, I only disliked JJ Abrams, now I fucking loathe the man.

Comment #79: Spooky Skeptic  on  05/20  at  12:58 AM

I really hate it when movies skip over plot and theme in order to introduce characters, on the theory that they’re setting up a franchise.

Valid as a personal preference, Amanda, but I do not think it is fair to this particular franchise, which has a long and storied history and which is very dear to a number of people.  My own opinion is that those characters…and particularly the Kirk/Spock/McCoy troika…stand on their own and deserve a reintroduction, after which we can focus more narrowly on plot.  Could the plot have been better in this movie?  Certainly, and I wish it were.  But in the end, I think it told a decent story (with some gaping holes in it, admittedly) and will hopefully reenergize it.

Heh, I mentioned in the tattoo thread Jesse posted the other day I had gotten my first tattoo a few months back. It’s actually a Trek tattoo…and now I give away my nerd credentials on this one. wink

Comment #80: Felix Culpa  on  05/20  at  01:11 AM

am i the only person who thinks that perhaps, Spock’s mother isn’t dead? i mean, its an OBVIOUS future plot device.

other than that - i had had no interest at *ALL* in see this movie. the rest of my family are Trekkies, and while it breaks my heart, in this one instance i am not on the same geek page as them (no, seriously, we are soooooooo geeky that right after GhostBusters came out we got Ghostbuster TShirts made and took our family pic that year wearing them. it was blinding) but it was my Dad’s BDay, so i went (i mean, i don’t dislike Trek, it just never grabbed me). and it was a good movie, for what it was.
i totally *loved* Uhura telling Spock off for letting their personal relationshop (that no one else apparently even knew of!) sway his decision (my exhusband used to do this - he was much harder on me, when he ran D&D;games, because if he wasn’t a complete and total dick to me,  if he treated me the same way he treated everyone else, he was accused of favortism.). i wish Uhura’s talents had been highlighted more, of course - they could have used them more, for sure - but yeah.

hated McCoy; he seemed like a parody of himself, if that makes sense.

Comment #81: denelian  on  05/20  at  01:57 AM

“Wow, I’m kind of surprised Amanda didn’t like the movie, but she seems awfully…what’s the word I’m looking for…”

“Grumpy?”

“Yeah!  How’d you know?”

“It’s in the title of the previous article about George Will at the top of the page.”

“Ahh….”

“Also, you’re talking to yourself.”

“God, you’re such a hack.”

“Well, since you’re talking to yourself, really you’re the—”

“OK.  Yes.  Thank you.”

In all seriousness, Amanda, I think you’d really dig Deep Space Nine, as it’s way more interested in the actual society of the Federation.  Unsurprisingly, Ron Moore was involved in more eps of DS9 than he was of Next Generation.

It is weird that Abrams went out of his way to say the movie wasn’t just for Star Trek fans, but then created a movie that was all about gleefully presenting all the in jokes and character beats that Star Trek fans know and love.  (FWIW, my favorite in joke was when Kirk asked Sulu what his close combat specialty was, and he replied: “fencing”.  I thought it was just going to be a funny inside one-off, but it turns out that he’s pretty badass with an epee.)

I had too much fun to worry about the lack of insight about the Federation’s society, and I hope they’re a little more introspective in future films, but the films are a difficult structure for what’s great about Star Trek:  You don’t have the screen time that a TV series has to develop different alien cultures (would the Cardassians have been as menacing in DS9 without David Warner’s role as torturer of Picard on Next Generation?), or show different facets of society.  In the movies, it’s going to be about Resolving The Conflict That Could End The Federation.  The only movie that was even partly philisophical that I can recall was First Contact, and that was a side mission (Zeb developing the warp engine.  That’ll do, Zeb, that’ll do.).  I didn’t see the last two, but from what everyone says I didn’t miss much.

Re Red matter:  According to the Wikipedia entry on the movie:

The red matter in the film is in the shape of a red ball, an Abrams motif dating back to the pilot of Alias.

Meh.

One last thing:  Yeah, it’s not very enlightened about women, but it did pass the Bechdel test (baaaarely) when Uhura was talking to her roomate about the Klingon distress call. grin

Comment #82: NY Expat  on  05/20  at  01:58 AM

Lots of great discussion here, so I’d like to share some of the reviews that I think people here would like (hopefully it’s linkiness won’t cause it to waste away in mod purgatory for too long):

Devin Faraci of CHUD on why the movie works despite the script, which he calls “the film’s real villan”.  Also here on “Why Star Trek Works Despite Itself”.

Kung Fu Monkey on how to stop worrying and enjoy Asshole Branigan—er, I mean Kirk.  Basically, it’s a companion piece to Devin’s stuff, in that Roger’s thinks Abrams was brilliant to let the characters do the work.  Not everyone on the thread agrees, and some good points are made that it’s just a string of inside jokes, made easy by 40 years of history.

Lastly, KF Monkey again, with recasting the other series.  My favorites:  LOL at the constant fail by everyone clamoring for Jean Reno as Picard because “he’s actually French” (someone finally broke it to them that he is, in fact, Moroccan); Idris Elbe as Sisko; Steve Buscemi as a meth-head-like Data; Jason Statham as an uber-Kirk Picard.

And last, but definitely not least…Stephen Colbert as Q!  I’m very tempted to start a campaign:  “Stephen T. Colbert?  No!  Stephen Q. Colbert!”

Comment #83: NY Expat  on  05/20  at  02:13 AM

The thing that made me smile the hardest was that Spock got the girl.  But again, I really like that actor.

It’s common fanon. in the original series, Uhura is pretty much the only non-Vulcan who knows how to play the Vulcan Lyre. Spock taught her. the whole shipping thing? Fandoms base entire relationships with children and everything off of less.

We’re subjected to a tedious moral about how Vulcans need to be more in touch with their emotions, which actually offended me

Vulcans have emotions. They have POWERFUL emotions. Their emotions are so profound they named their gods after their emotions. Their race devoted themselves to the philosophy of reason and logic because they would otherwise have been utterly destroyed, but they have emotions and most Vulcans recognize that. Spock is an unusual case. Since he is half human, he actually devoted himself to the Vulcan equivalent of a monastic order, who take vows of emotional celibacy. He doesn’t just control his emotions, he shuts them out completely. Not all Vulcans are supposed to be as cold and Logic driven as he is, although most of the ones in Star Fleet are highly accomplished, which usually entails taking said vows.

But they’re there, and in that situation, he was in fact deep in mourning. Old Spock pointed it out to Kirk first. trying to let him stay in denial would be both a disservice to him emotionally and endanger the mission.

Comment #84: karpad  on  05/20  at  02:24 AM

a sci-fi environment that usually inculcates reactionaries.

How so ?

Comment #85: Caravelle  on  05/20  at  03:45 AM

“Meanwhile, I’m stuck on the fact that Kirk is a mega-asshole. ~Amanda”

Actually, you’ve got it. Kirt *is* a mega-asshole. Always has been. And this is someone who grew up in a time when TOS (The Orginal Series) was always on somewhere for years. (And before cable, yet.) I’ve seen every episode of every series and every movie, and I agree, Kirk’s an ass. My hubby is even more of a Trekky than me… I don’t have all the episode names memorized, but he does, and can recognize a TOS ep with his eyes closed just from the pre-opening sequence dialog.

(Actually, it’s probably just Shatner that’s the asshole, but it so shines through his work… lol.)

I said outloud when I read what I quoted there, “By Jove, I think she’s got it!” Hubby looked at me funny, so I explained it, and he nodded and said, “Pretty much”.

Comment #86: KMac  on  05/20  at  04:55 AM

my reaction was that this is the post-9/11 star trek—amped up Kirk, with a much rougher background waterboarding (water-“surrounding”?) Pike—things like that…

Amy’s review (pointed to by Cris above 05/19 at 05:37 PM) makes a good case for various Star Trek’s as creatures of their time

Comment #87: triozyg  on  05/20  at  04:56 AM

“To add insult to injury, he also tried to suck it into his stupid little universe by having Uhura order a fucking Slusho.  Seriously?  Before I found that out, I only disliked JJ Abrams, now I fucking loathe the man. “

Really?  You hate the whole movie because a funny throw-away joke?  Movie makers have been throwing in little jokes and asides and references for years upon years.  And slusho is such a ridiculously innocuous name for a drink that I’m surprised they don’t already serve on at TGIFridays. 

Frankly, it drives me nuts all the outrage that the movie isn’t “Trek” enough.  I thought every character and performance was fun and exciting.  As a passive fan who has watched every series but never really obsessed over the minutia, it was great seeing, in a sense, the old gang together again.  Maybe I’m wrong, but the whole reason the series needed a reboot was because it was already completely crushed into irrelevancy because of the obsessive attention to Trek canon and mythology.  The excitement, the freshness, the JOY was gone, replaced by wrote attention to fan-demanded detail.  Non-Trekkers were no longer able to relate or enjoy a Star Trek film on its own merits.

Anyway, as you might imagine, I loved the movie, I thought Abrams did a great job balancing the need to revive the series with an obvious love for the original.

Comment #88: pixelkitty  on  05/20  at  07:26 AM

Someone is pissed at a Slusho reference in a scene where Uhura orders Budweiser Classics?  Really?  Actually pissed?  As for “Sabotage” by the Beastie Boys, why not?  It’s not like no one saw the previews and didn’t already know the car goes off a cliff.  Why not wonder what the hell a huge granite quarry is doing in corn country rather than worry about the music, I wonder.

I hope Michael Bay makes a Star Trek movie just for people like those.

Comment #89: 3letterjon  on  05/20  at  08:18 AM

Dear Amanda:

I totally heart (as a verb, not a noun) most everything about your views and viewpoints… except when it comes to movies.

Being near prideful in your ignorance of STAR TREK (the show, that is), then expressing vaguely held notions about what you had kinda-sorta-heard it was all about, then deciding that the movie had failed to meet those vaguely held conceptions, or use them as the basis from which to begin its storytelling is painful for this life-long Shatner-lovin’ nerd to read.

Also, SABOTAGE being included was a loving meta-reference to Shatner.

Comment #90: jdobbin  on  05/20  at  09:41 AM

oops—meant to include this link about Shatner’s history with “Sabotage.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOTRxt-dIw&eurl=http://www.wired.com/underwire/2009/02/bales-meltdown/&feature=player_embedded

Comment #91: jdobbin  on  05/20  at  09:47 AM

Really?  You hate the whole movie because a funny throw-away joke?  Movie makers have been throwing in little jokes and asides and references for years upon years.

ST is especially notorious/famous for this.  To take just one stealth example:  on the medical readouts in Crusher’s sickbay on Enterprise D is an important-looking display which the fans can’t read but can only be seen on-set.  It reads, “medical insurance remaining”.

Comment #92: seeker6079  on  05/20  at  10:10 AM

Bah, I’m saddened that no one took up the flag of TNG movies versus TOS movies. I mean, TNG movies aren’t good (I’d be a fool to claim that), but they are at least watchable, which is more than I can say for several of the TOS movies. I mean, Peter Pan Spock? Good grief.

But I might be showing my youth now.

Comment #93: Essie Elephant  on  05/20  at  12:39 PM

Wow, jdobbin nails it:

Being near prideful in your ignorance of STAR TREK (the show, that is), then expressing vaguely held notions about what you had kinda-sorta-heard it was all about, then deciding that the movie had failed to meet those vaguely held conceptions, or use them as the basis from which to begin its storytelling is painful…

Zack Handlen at The Onion AV Club is going through all TOS episodes, and it’s instructive to hear what works and what doesn’t from someone working with the actual source material, rather than some hazy recollections.

Amanda, it sounds doesn’t sound like you’re “necessarily opposed” to sci-fi, it sounds like you’re practically giddy for it.  What you sound opposed to is “space opera” (think original Star Wars, Buck Rogers).  Very few sci-fi people will disagree with you on that type of show’s lack of merit.

Hoping you’ll chime in on the Lost finale soon.

Comment #94: NY Expat  on  05/20  at  12:48 PM

I’m surprised no one has brought up the single biggest running gag in the entire film: Kirk loses every single fight he gets into, until the very end of the film when he orders the ship to open fire.  He continually gets the shit beat out of him, and always needs someone else to come to his rescue (in order, Captain Pike, Sulu, Spock-Prime, Sarek, and Spock).

Comment #95: KeithM  on  05/20  at  01:08 PM

NY Expat, Amanda likes Battlestar Gallactica, which is a space opera. How could you say that people don’t like space operas?

Comment #96: Entomologista  on  05/20  at  01:20 PM

This movie was very well done, despite the inconsistencies. smile

Comment #97: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/20  at  01:57 PM

Amanda, you should read(if you haven’t yet) The Lensman series, it’s the original space opera:

The classic space opera series Lensman started in 1937, and since then, just like Thomas Jefferson before it, fought injustice and left enough bastard children around to populate a small city.

Every sci-fi series with some sort of space police owes something to Lensman, from the Jedi Knights of Star Wars to Buzz Lightyear. If it has space policemen then it’s ripping off Lensman or ripping off something that ripped it off first. The apple that fell closest to the tree was the Green Lantern Corps.

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/20  at  02:13 PM

Ento:  Just might be my interpretation of Space Opera, but I don’t think they bother with miner’s strikes in those.

(Though I suppose, by that definition, that a Clerks rewrite of Return Of The Jedi or A New Hope would be sci fi instead of Space Opera.)

At worst, BSG is a reinterpretation of Space Opera.  We might start with “kill the baddies”, but it moves way past that.  And clearly, Amanda’s reviews of the show indicate that those other, non-SO aspects of the show are what interest her.

Comment #99: NY Expat  on  05/20  at  02:19 PM

I think “red matter” should now be the phrase for any magical element in a sci-fi story that tries to pass itself off as science.

Technically, I think the term is currently “tachyon fields”, or maybe “reversing the polarity.” All under the general rubric of “technobabble.”

This already has a term

Comment #100: karpad  on  05/20  at  02:32 PM

“Amazing Larry, not only do I disagree with your assessment, but your argument is so dripping with self-righteousness that it only accentuates the degree to which you are completely wrong.”
Tyro on 05/19 at 10:07 PM

Whatever, nerd. I may be self-righteous, but at least I bothered to back up my opinion with specific details and examples. You, on the other hand, are just a lazy-ass whiner. Who cares what you think?

And another thing… Blowing up Vulcan? Brilliant idea! Think about it. For all these years, Vulcan’s been the most boring, underdeveloped location in the Star Trek universe. If it weren’t for the occasional emergency pit stop where Spock either gets married or resurrected we would never see it. And when we do, it’s boring as hell—a hot, empty desert world where nothing ever happens. Unlike Spock, all the other Vulcans are dull because they have no inner emotional conflict and their society has achieved everlasting peace and prosperity. It’s like an Atlantis that never sinks into the ocean—boring. Now, thanks to Abrams, I’m actually interested in the Vulcan culture and how it will struggle to survive and rebuild. The possibilities are endless. You know I’m right.

Comment #101: Amazing Larry  on  05/20  at  03:00 PM

Sorry, Larry, you’re a self-righteous twit so obsessed with sucking up to big-budget movie makers that you can’t for the life of you criticize a movie, coming up with not only a weak defense of “the meant to do that!” so dripping with self-righteous accusations that I can’t say that you can possibly have any insight here whatsoever. I made a valid critique. Your defense was lame, lame, lame and you had to back it up with some kind of self-righteous indignation as though someone told you your precious child’s ears were too big (they are).

If a film wants to “go there” and destroy planets, you need to deal with it as something other than an excuse to have a fun special effects sequence. It’s almost as though you think it’s a good thing that we’re just as shallow as the movie makers are.

plus, really, you think anyone here regards “nerd’ as an insult?

I look forward to mocking your poorly written comments in the future. Carry on.

Comment #102: Tyro  on  05/20  at  03:22 PM

If a film wants to “go there” and destroy planets, you need to deal with it as something other than an excuse to have a fun special effects sequence. It’s almost as though you think it’s a good thing that we’re just as shallow as the movie makers are.

Tyro, without taking sides in the flame war, I think it’s best to be on the fence at this point about Vulcan’s destruction.  It is not at all established that was done as “an excuse to have a fun special effects sequence,” it was actually fairly integral to the story even if you do not like precisely how that unfolded or think it could have been better. 

Furthermore, I can see using the Vulcan holocaust and diaspora as an intriguing vehicle, going further down the line, as a vehicle for making further installments in the series topical.  The possibilities in that regard (refugees seeking a home, political ramifications of the near extinction of an “ethnic” group, perhaps cloning or other scientific means used in an attempt to repopulate or even “purify” the species, etc.) would appear to be nearly limitless.  It reminds me somewhat of the whole “New Caprica” cycle in BSG, but could be taken off in numerous other directions.

Comment #103: Felix Culpa  on  05/20  at  03:51 PM

Everyone talking about Asshole Kirk getting on New Spock’s back to get command of the Enterprise needs to remember that he did so because Old Spock told him to not just for shits and giggles.

For the record, I am a complete TNG trekkie.  I know TOS, though am not a huge fan, and was very sceptical about the film.  But then loved it.  Loved. It.

Comment #104: Katherine  on  05/20  at  03:53 PM

I agree that the red matter was DUMB and that the destruction of Vulcan was a pretty bad idea poorly executed, but overall I did enjoy the movie. Visually speaking I think it was the best looking Star Trek ever. I love how it partially re-embraced a 60’s visual aesthetic and tweaked it with some contemporary touches.
Plus Chris Pine=totally sexy. Zachary Quinto is not far behind.

Comment #105: AdamN  on  05/20  at  03:54 PM

i haven’t finished reading the comments just yet, but i have a theory about the inclusion of red matter that makes it actually not annoying at all and sort of cool: it’s one of the many jj abrams shout outs to the fans of his other works. because red matter is totally something they would discuss on fringe (actually, they even referred to vulcan in the episode that aired after star trek came out, not to mention the fact that the show’s big bad now turns out to be none other than nimoy himself).

he also included a bunch of other little pieces for hopeless abrams fans: the monster that chased kirk on the ice planet looked suspiciously like the cloverfield monster. people talking to their past/future selves and joking about destroying reality riffing on the current season of lost. i’m sure there was probably something for alias fans in there too, but i missed that show entirely.

or maybe i just watch too much tv.

Comment #106: akzidenzgrotesk  on  05/20  at  03:57 PM

Poorly written comments? You mean gibberish like this:

“Also, the tone I got from the scene with Spock “losing his cool” was not that Spock should learn to feel guilty about living with Vulcan values, but rather that he should aknowledge the limits of what he’s capable of and stop trying to be “more vulcan than though” by claiming not to have his judgment clouded be emotion in the wake of the destruction of his planet.”  Tyro on 05/19 at 05:36 PM

Yeah, you’re a real fuckin’ Shakespeare. Nothing like careless typos and incomprehensible grammar to really bolster your argument. You sure showed me.

Fact is, nerd, you have yet to respond to any of my arguments about the film with anything other than punk-ass personal attacks. You can sit there and call me a self-righteous twit all you want, but until you grow some balls and start debating ideas like an intelligent adult, don’t expect me to give a flying fuck about any of your worthless opinions.

Comment #107: Amazing Larry  on  05/20  at  04:41 PM

Blowing up Vulcan was a great idea. Why? Because orphan civilizations make for compelling story. Titan A.E. was a great movie, as an example. It also means that the Federation will look a lot different in this new timeline. If you think “They blew up Vulcan, so what?” you either aren’t very familiar with the Star Trek universe, or you’re really stupid.

***

Why wouldn’t a space opera be able to deal with a miners’ strike? Not every space opera is the Foundation series. Look at the Culture novels, or the Uplift novels. There is a grand, overarching galactic civilization, but the stories deal with the minutia of the characters’ lives. And Stephen Baxter’s novels are certainly NOT about killing bad guys, even though they are space operas. If you think that space operas are simple-minded or that most sci-fi nerds don’t like them, you really need to revisit that particular subgenre. Battlestar Gallactica had potential but was turned into a giant clusterfuck. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t space opera. It was just terrible, awful, no-good space opera. You’re right in that it went way beyond most space operas - it turned into All My Space Children.

Comment #108: Entomologista  on  05/20  at  05:50 PM

Entomologista:

Well, I think most people liked the new BSG, myself included, but you are right….it was space opera, and furthermore, most sci-fi fans seem to respond pretty well to space opera.  Space opera also tends to translate to a wider audience better than “hard” sci-fi, and the new Trek has taken it in a more operatic direction.  Hopefully not *too* far in that direction, but the proof will ultimately be in the pudding.  Or the Plomeek Soup.  Whatever. wink

PS Do I need to reevaluate Titan A.E.?  I saw it many years ago and recall having a general “meh” reaction to it, but I am open to an argument for its viability as good space opera.

Comment #109: Felix Culpa  on  05/20  at  06:38 PM

Felix & Entomologista:

I agree 100% regarding the destruction of Vulcan. The obvious parallel that struck me was of Jewish refugees searching for a homeland. But you could take the metaphor even further to the current problems in the Middle East. Spock says that he has found a new place for the Vulcans to settle. What if they eventually discover that another civilization is already there—and are none too pleased to have to share their backyard with new neighbors? How desperate would the situation have to become before some radical young Vulcans decide to abandon logic and return to their ancient, violent ways—perhaps even starting an all out war against the Romulans? A bloodthirsty cynic could easily rationalize such a war as both an act of vengence AND a pre-emptive strike. I’d be shocked if the next film didn’t at least hint at some of these possibilities.

Comment #110: Amazing Larry  on  05/20  at  07:35 PM

“What was sort of a moment of poor filmmaking was how sterile the destruction of Vulcan was (this happened with the destruction of NYC in Watchmen, as well). The filmmakers are fine with depicting the destruction of a planet (cool special effects!) but don’t want anyone to actually see the consequences of it. All of the views of Vulcan, supposedly with billions of people, are completely depopulated. If you want us to understand what Spock is feeling when his planet is destroyed, confront us with billions of people dying. Don’t use it as an excuse to wow the audience with nifty CGI.”

I’m a bit late to this thread but amen, Tyro.

Contrast what Abrams did here with what Whedon did in Serenity when the Firefly crew finally got to Miranda, for instance.

Comment #111: Erik Siegrist  on  05/20  at  08:58 PM

“I mean, TNG has Borg. That alone is a plus.”

Considering that the TNG movies completely ruined the Borg and made them no longer scary, Essie, no it ain’t.

Comment #112: Erik Siegrist  on  05/20  at  09:04 PM

Bah, I’m saddened that no one took up the flag of TNG movies versus TOS movies.

Essie, it sounds to me like that someone would have to be you.

I mean, TNG movies aren’t good (I’d be a fool to claim that), but they are at least watchable, which is more than I can say for several of the TOS movies. I mean, Peter Pan Spock? Good grief.
...Essie Elephant on 05/20 at 07:39 AM

Note that I cut off my personal short list of “good TOS movies” at IV, “The Voyage Home.” (And at least one person here has panned that one, claiming they couldn’t stay awake. Well, it was as good as any Trek movie gets, with lots of light and funny moments but it also, as I saw it, moved with a purpose. And moved some porpoises—well, you know what I mean…)

I think my appreciation of III, “Search for Spock,” suffered from my hearing problems, because when I rewatched it decades later, with the benefit of closed captioning, it seemed much better. So did “Khan.”

As for the first Trek movie, well, that’s the one where I tended to fall asleep. They don’t call it “The Motionless Picture” for nothing.

#5 was eventually denounced and banned from Trek canon by Gene Roddenberry himself.

A lot of the impression some people have that Starfleet was a fundamentally military operation comes from the movies, notably II and VI. Watching the DVD extra materials for Wrath of Khan I heard it explained that the director of that movie (can’t be bothered to look up who he was) was all jazzed by military themes and he singlehandedly remade the image of Starfleet to be more, um, Fleet-like—what with the frou-frou uniforms and all the standing at attention and blah blah blah. We can rationalize all this by imagining cultural shifts in Federation society (just as there were in similar time spans in US culture).

Part of the impulse behind this revision was that the first movie was something of a flop; it was easy, in the early Eighties especially, to blame the New Agey-ness of that film and argue for a turn toward a more gritty—or any rate, moderately sweaty—idea of what the Federation and Starfleet were like.

It took me a while and several viewings to warm to II, III, and accept I.

The only one I instantly liked and still like with the least reservation was The Voyage Home and insofar as I understand just what Amanda means by “hokeyness” even this best Trek movie still is steeped in it. It’s just a few phasers and a bit of strong language away from being a “Rainbow Brite” episode, after all! But a really kickass “Rainbow Brite” episode.

Now you tell us, which TNG movies do you like the best, and why? I’ve already said that “First Contact” was, well, sort of all right.

(Personally I thought the idea that Zephrem Cochrane was some alky grease monkey in Wyoming or Montana or wherever that was was, well, hokey. Until that movie I’d always assumed he was an asteroid colonist and built and launched his first warp ship in space, where it belongs…)

Upon careful reconsideration, I’d have to say that Nemesis (see, the name eventually came back to me!) is my second favorite of the TNG movies—and I still have very mixed feelings about it.

Now tell us why either of these movies is as good as “Voyage Home” or why you like one of the others better.

I like you a lot, Essie, and I hate being so negative with you. I’d really like to know what you see in these movies; maybe it will improve my view of them.

To restate my claim—the main problem is they all fell flat, and this was very frustrating when so many regular episodes in any of the TV series—even Enterprise had so much more zing, as well as solidity.

Comment #113: Mark Foxwell  on  05/20  at  09:14 PM

I have to contest one thing about those who say that blowing up Vulcan was a good thing.  Now there is no chance for a reimagining of the greatest fight in SciFi history: Hormonal Spock v. Kirk (who is always Hormonal, I guess.)

Tata tah tah tah tah tah tah tata tata! (Bones: “No Spock, No!”)  Tata tah tah tah tah (Spock wields aluminum foil-wrapped giant Q-Tip with half a hubcap on other end against Kirk.) Tata tah tah….

In anything in the Star Trek Universe is going to be considered canon, that’s it.  Now it’s ruined.  Darn you, JJ!  Darn you to Heck!

Comment #114: 3letterjon  on  05/21  at  12:27 AM

Mark, are you denouncing the awesomeness of Star Trek six?

You seem mistaken on the rule. it was “even numbered star trek movies don’t suck.”

or, if you want to be more flattering “the star trek movies average out to be pretty good.”

Comment #115: karpad  on  05/21  at  03:38 AM

Entomologista : Why wouldn’t a space opera be able to deal with a miners’ strike? Not every space opera is the Foundation series.

Well, didn’t Lathan Devers die in a miners’ strike ? Or in a mine at least, in a situation that damn well called for a strike.

Comment #116: Caravelle  on  05/21  at  05:34 AM

Mark, are you denouncing the awesomeness of Star Trek six?

No, I’m denying it.

To be fair—I think I’ve only seen it once; that would have been w/o benefit of captioning.

Still, the way I remember it, that movie starts with a very heavy-handed parallel with Chernobyl and goes downhill from there via much silliness.

You seem mistaken on the rule. it was “even numbered star trek movies don’t suck.”
karpad on 05/20 at 10:38 PM

Again—I think that’s just wrong. III/Search For Spock
didn’t suck. All movies after IV did, one way or another.

Comment #117: Mark Foxwell  on  05/21  at  07:51 AM

Mark Foxwell,

It’s been forever since I’ve seen the TOS movies, but I generally agree with the statements that even the promoters here are saying: That it is damned hard to stay awake while watching them. If we’re setting that as the bar that TNG movies have to jump over (note that I didn’t say TNG movies are good, just that they are better than TOS movies), then that’s a pretty low bar.

Add to that the stilted, cheesy acting that is a hallmark of TOS (“KHHHAAAAAANNNNNN!!!”)(which I enjoyed at the time, but the acting needed to evolve, that’s just a fact IMHO), the incredibly bad plot lines… thinking that maybe they’ve “met God”? Resurrecting Spock to run around as a little space Peter Pan? Oh man.

And on the other hand, you have TNG. First Contact was - IMHO - quite wonderful, in that it actually examined serious human emotions in a way that I found imaginative and controversial. ZC, “now” lionized as a hero with a statue is shown to be a not-so-heroic clever guy who is more interested in profit and self-advancement rather than lofty goals like “world peace”. I love the implication that perhaps our own lionized heroes (with statues!) probably weren’t any less self-motivated.

Picard, on the other hand, has to face the fact that his “give no ground” approach to the Borg is increasingly based on his own hatred and feelings of revenge rather than what is the best possible solution for his crew and his species. It’s even pointed out to him that he was wrong by a WOMAN. I’d like to see a TOS movie manage that. (When Kirk is wrong, which is rare, he either realizes it because of his own awesomeness, or a man points it out. When a woman “helps”, it’s because her naive, stupid existence helps Kirk be introspective enough to realize how to be less wrong, er, more awesome.)

All the stuff with Data, exploring his feelings and emotions, is just awesome. He has to balance his desire to be human, and have emotions, with the realization that those emotions and humanity come at a price that most humans would prefer not to pay. That Data, an android, can express more about humanity than the entire cast of TOC combined is meaningful to me.

(For anyone who says that the Borg were stupid / not scary in First Contact, well, it must be a YMMV thing. Borg Queen who can take over the Enterprise is way better, IMHO, than Borg Queen who is regularly out-witted by Janeway, despite having the combined knowledge and wisdom of millions of races. Because Janeway is Mary Sue, as much as I love her, she’s NEVER wrong. Even when she’s wrong, she’s right.)

Nemesis has, if nothing else, a rape scene that realistically portrays rape as a terrible invasion, and not something that can be “laid back and enjoyed”, and the victim is both realistically traumatized AND able to function at her job afterwards under pressure without falling hopelessly apart. And, despite what-surely-must-have-existed temptation to do otherwise, the movie resists making Deanna’s rape “all about” Riker’s feelings in the matter - he is shown loving his wife and feeling helpless to help her, sure, but the focus is on HER with the clear, irrefutable understanding that her pain is infinitely worse than his pain. Compare to the “usual” sci-fi rape where the act is one meant to get a leg up on the hero who ‘owns’ the woman, and is not a significant factor in the woman’s life at all.

And then there’s the whole “are we the sum of our genes or is there more to us” theme of Nemesis which nicely undercuts all that evopsych crap that Amanda is always having to post about.

But all that is gravy. Because the bar was just, Are TNG movies decent enough to stay awake during them? And, for me at least, the answer is definitely YES. TOS movies? Insomnia cures, in my house at least. Nostalgia can definitely make a difference in these things, though.

Comment #118: Essie Elephant  on  05/21  at  11:21 AM

Again—I think that’s just wrong. III/Search For Spock didn’t suck. All movies after IV did, one way or another.

Correct, Mr. Foxwell is.  First Contact is the only post STIV film that even has any real redeeming qualities, and that’s only roughly half the film.  The Borg Queen alone was such a monumental failure to understand the concept of what the Borg actually were that it irritates me just thinking about it.

Are TNG movies decent enough to stay awake during them? And, for me at least, the answer is definitely YES. TOS movies? Insomnia cures, in my house at least.

You are seriously contending that Insurrection and Nemesis weren’t (to adapt Mark Twain’s epigraph on the Book of Mormon) chloroform in celluloid form?  Beyond which, if you think Wrath of Khan was dull at all (and let alone indictably so in comparison to those TNG snoozefests I just mentioned) then I think we simply have a fundamental and insolubale disagreement as to the definition of sleep. wink

Comment #119: Felix Culpa  on  05/21  at  12:19 PM

Felix Culpa, I am contending such, but I do recognize that this is definitely a YMMV, which is why I proposed this “fight” with tongue firmly in cheek. smile

This *may* be a generational gap, though.

Comment #120: Essie Elephant  on  05/21  at  01:41 PM

Essie:  My tongue rarely leaves my cheek. wink

As for generational gaps, I think that may be next generational, so to speak.  I remember seeing The Wrath of Khan in the theater, though I was but seven years old, and TNG premieried in 1987 when I was eleven.  For whatever reason, I connected with the original crew and I found TNG to be, with some exceptions here and there, mostly rehash of TOS.  And as I stated above, as far as character dynamic goes, I do not think they have ever topped the Kirk/Spock/McCoy troika.

I also recognize that this is something upon which reasonable people can differ.  With the exception of The Wrath of Khan: it is still hands down the best of the lot, and that’s well-nigh graven in the very fabric of reality. wink

Comment #121: Felix Culpa  on  05/21  at  03:16 PM

Felix, I’m glad to hear it. smile

I will admit to getting some enjoyment out of Kahn, but largely because of the stilted dialogue. I definitely grew up on TOS, but I really got into TNG as I got older and just liked it so much more. (Although, yes, the first season is largely TOS repeats. Which is why the first season sucks. IMHO.)

I myself never liked the K/S/M troika, as you call it, because I just found it so tedious. Spock always represents logic, McCoy always represents emotion, and Kirk always finds the perfect middle ground between them. (And then Kirk and McCoy gloat and mock Spock. Haha!) Every. Single. Damn. Episode. I found it annoying, banal, and stupid - especially the concept that it’s a *good* idea to consolidate characters into one-dimensional abstract concepts. But I digress, I think.

I also thought all the Apollo stuff was just silly. And the women on TOS were so farking stupid / useless / victimy. I mean, Yeoman Rand’s job is apparently to bring people dinner and be sexually assaulted. Oh, yes, and she exists for Kirk to have someone to hold and comfort in a Captainly manner. Wonderful.

I could, of course, be influence by my intense annoyance that the syndicated networks ran that stupid Kirk-with-a-ripped-shirt-fighting-a-lizard-with-handmade-tools episode every other day for nine weeks. That’s enough to scar any kid for life.

Comment #122: Essie Elephant  on  05/21  at  06:28 PM

Essie: Oh, I’ll be the first to admit there are myriad painfully sexist aspects to TOS…in fact, I am actually not a fan of the canonization of Gene Roddenberry as the “beautiful genius” of Trek because a lot of that emanated driectly from him, and in point of fact, he was in many ways not a very great guy.  I enjoy TOS in spite of that, definitely not because of it.  (Though I will admit a continuing crush on Andrea the Android, but oh well, none of us is perfect…) I might hasten to add though that TNG was far from innocent of this charge…particularly during the period while Roddenberry was still at the helm. wink

(Rand was only in the first season, and was canned before the end of it….precisely because the producers began to feel that, if Kirk really had a “live in” girl on the Enterprise, the public might begin to question his rnady man-about-the-galaxy ways…)

It is equally true that some of the TOS episodes are cringe-inducing for other reasons…though I rather like the Kork-Gorn fight episode (Arena), though regrettably, the effects budget there made it a joke even at the time is was broadcast.  Overall, about a third of TOS episodes are (minor flaws aside) masterpieces, about a third of them are merely adequate sci-fi, and the remaining third are embarrassing.

But I think you definitely short-shrift the K/S/M relationship.  McCoy was actually often very rational, and while Spock was (usually) emotionally restrained, he was also informed (and in fact driven by) deep seated moral and ethical convictions as well as an obvious appreciation of beauty and knowledge.  Kirk himself contained all of these aspects, but the supposedly “even” division with McCoy representing emotion and Spock representing logic was always, to my mind, wrong.  In fact, to me Spock and McCoy really represent different aspects of humanism and liberal thought, and Kirk (while he is usually the “arbiter” of that conflict) by no means always “compromises” between the two. Sometimes he went one way or another, sometimes he synthesized, and (less frequently) he rejected both ways.  Beyond that, (and this is mostly subjective) there was a very real chemistry between Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelley…one actually believed those characters were close friends as well as antagonists.

Ah well, I have had a lot of occasion to think about this over the years, as you can tell. wink

Comment #123: Felix Culpa  on  05/21  at  09:50 PM
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