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Bamboo Reviews: Zach And Miri Make A Porno

SPOILERS.  SERIOUSLY, SPOILERS.

Kevin Smith is such a frustrating writer/filmmaker.  He giveth, and he taketh away.  His latest movie “Zach And Miri Make A Porno” is a classic example.  I had a great time watching it, but there were also some serious drawbacks.  Let me demonstrate

Giveth: Elizabeth Banks as Miri.  Thank god for this role.  Elizabeth Banks is so funny, and she deserves more than being the thankless girlfriend/wife or playing bit parts.  There’s a serious problem in comedy, which is there are a lot more funny actresses than there are roles for them, and I suspect Banks will be a victim of that problem.  Kevin Smith contributes to the problem in part, since he’s always got leading men but not so often leading women.  But to Smith’s credit, he does break out of the trap on occasion of portraying women as oversensitive fun-killing harpies, a tendency that’s taking over Judd Apatow’s movies, for instance.  Miri is a normal person, and it really blows your mind how few women in comedies are normal people.  She sleeps in oversized shirts, wears granny panties (because she, you know, gets her period), wavers between being unabashed about being sexual and feeling sexist pressure not to be, and, like most people, has her boorish and awkward moments.  Banks gets into the character, instead of keeping her distance like other actresses do when trying to do something awkward or silly in comedies, as if to reassure the wankers in the audience that THIS IS JUST A ROLE; I DON’T FART IN REAL LIFE.  Please, Hollywood, write some good roles like this for Elizabeth Banks.

Taketh away: Tisha Campbell-Martin’s baffling turn as Delaney’s wife.  To the actress’s credit, this sexist, racist role (basically the opposite of Banks’ multi-faceted character) was not written by her, and she seems to be doing the best she can with wretched material.  Smith needs someone in his life to tell him no, I think.  This entire character and all references to her and her harpy ways made by Delaney needed to be excised from the script.  I realize Delaney needs problems at home to explain his reluctance to engage in production of the porno, but why not just make it more financial woes like the sort that Zach and Miri have?  This woman is beyond a cartoon, because at least cartoons have explicable behavior.  She’s just crazy and mean beyond all human understanding.


Giveth: Craig Robinson as Delaney.  Again, Hollywood take note.  Like Elizabeth Banks, Craig Robinson is a subtle but hilarious physical comedian.  He got big laughs with rather small gestures, and his short bout of dancing onscreen is far funnier than it should have been considering how little he’s actually doing.  Unfortunately, his character is mostly a broad stereotype, but he does a lot with a little.  He needs someone to write him roles beyond being The Black Guy.  He’s good on “The Office”, playing the biggest character whose work life is just a little out of the reach of Steve Carrell’s unintentional tyranny, and therefore bemused by it.

Taketh away: Seth Rogan as Zach.  I mean, he’s fine, but he’s just such a big star now that it’s clear that he wasn’t subject to the directing he needed to be to be as funny as he could have been.  There’s just too many moments where Rogan needed to be a tad more boorish or awkward, but wants to come across as a cool character.  It’s okay to be a loser, Rogan.  The point of the movie is that even losers like Zach and Miri can find love.

Giveth: Some stellar raunchy humor, and a great first 2/3 of the movie.  When Smith’s at his best with raunchy humor, it works because it’s more about the real sources of humor—-our flawed human nature.  This movie, at least for the first 2/3, strikes a perfect note of making crazy fun of stupid shit while not crossing into the zone of misanthropy.  (Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s just not this movie.)  Much of the raunch exploits the fertile ground that is the difference between real life and the fantasies portrayed in pornography.  Smith is pretty comfortable with making fun of how goofy sex is, and it makes the whole thing pretty relaxed for a comedy about porn. 

Taketh away: The plot falls apart in the final third.  I’m completely on board from the beginning with the idea that a couple of good friends don’t realize that they love each other until forces conspire to get them to fuck each other and then it feels intimate and so they move into a romantic relationship.  But Smith couldn’t figure out how to make it work, and ends up taking two characters who have a lifetime of blunt honesty with each other and making them do uncharacteristic things to inject some tension in the plot. 

Marc put his finger on it as we were leaving—-Smith probably could have written something much more interesting if he’d had the courage of his convictions, but instead he finishes up with some sort of romantic ode to monogamy.  We’re asked to believe that Zach and Miri have lived for years together, watching each other’s romantic ups and downs and probably hearing each other have sex (their shitty apartment is great, looks totally realistic), but only now that they’re starting to make a porn movie does it occur to them that they want only to fuck each other.  I’m not buying it. Smith wrote a comedy that posits that the love lives of losers are fit for romantic comedies, that people who work in porn shouldn’t be stigmatized, and that women who take shits and make huge mistakes are loveable.  But he couldn’t quite bring himself to tackle the other big myth, that monogamy just happens because it feels right.  I don’t buy it. Far more interesting would be showing how Zach and Miri decide to become monogamous after an actual commitment—-how they fuck other people, how they muscle through it, whatever.  But Smith contrives to find ways to tempt them to fuck others, but they reject it, even though there’s no fucking way.  Far more interesting would be a comedy about how people aren’t naturally monogamous, even if they love each other, but instead that they choose it.

It doesn’t have to be boring or unfunny.  The worst part about the way Smith plays it safe is that he made his best movie by tackling a hoary old romantic cliche—-when he brutalized the virgin/whore syndrome in “Chasing Amy”.  I appreciate that movie because it showed that the whole “knight in shining armor” mythology is pathological, and that there’s nothing sweet or endearing about men who are controlling, possessive, or jealous.  If only he’d brought that sensibility to this movie. I mean, Zach’s desire to control who Miri has sex with is portrayed as stupid to an extent, but then again, he’s never actually forced to deal directly with the fact that, outside of a formal commitment to him, she’s free to have sex with whoever she likes and his role is to suck it up and move past it if he wants a relationship with her.  (And it goes both ways—-Miri is also never forced to deal with it, which is fair, at least, but still the boring route.)  Introducing real conflict like that would have removed the need for bullshit fake conflict. And I bet we’d still get a chance to see Jason Mewes’ cock.

Still, it’s not a waste of money or anything.  The jokes are great.  Just don’t see it if you’re easily offended or you can’t cherry pick what you like out of movies.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:15 PM • (60) Comments

I’ve lived 26 years without seeing Jason Mewes’ cock, and I like it that way.

Does Mewes have like, another job? does he just kind of live on Smith’s couch?

Comment #1: Indy  on  11/08  at  04:38 PM

The roles women have (and don’t have) in movies is one of those “now that I get it, it bothers me to no end” things, so it is WONDERFUL to hear about a character that is more like an actual woman.

I do want to say, however, that your statement about misandry (the parenthetical) could and will be taken badly.  What I mean is ‘imagine someone said the same thing about misogyny in a film’.  Maybe I am misreading, correct me if I am, I just don’t want to appear like we think misandrist humor is funny. 

If the film is still out when I get back to the states, I may go to see it.  Maybe I can convince my FWB to make out in the theater for the last third of the film…

Comment #2: Ursula  on  11/08  at  04:55 PM

Bah, I did misread, scratch that

Comment #3: Ursula  on  11/08  at  04:57 PM

I’m sorry, I just can’t bring myself to watch one more dude film where dorky unconventially handsome guys end up with hot babes.  Just not going to do it.  I don’t care how funny and well-written the dialogue is and how “imperfect” the heroine is, apart from her taut body, poreless skin, shiny hair, and youth.  I’ve got better things to do with my money than give guys like Smith and Apatow more impetus to churn out more cinematic reinforcements of the Beauty Myth that invariably lead to Nice Guys(tm) thinking they can emulate the plot lines with and becoming even more insufferable than they already are. 

When either Smith or Apatow make one film that treats a fat and/or funny-looking female protagonist with the same tender empathy that Seth Rogan gets I will eat my hat.  When Rogan was asked about the appearance disparity in his films in an interview he scoffed at the interviewer and accused her of being “sexist” for picking on the poor widdle unattractive menz.

Comment #4: Donna  on  11/08  at  05:03 PM

Ursula: While I’m glad you noticed your mistake in your reading of Amanda’s point, i want to challenge your assertion that misandry isn’t funny. It is funny. So is misogyny. So are all forms of “ist” humor. Those things aren’t always funny, no, but if they’re done “right”, they are. Right, in this case, meaning “funny.”

The question we have to answer - and I’m thinking specifically about misogyny again, since your assumption started from the idea that we wouldn’t want anyone to approve of misogynist humor - is, is the humor worth the effect it has on the target, and on the public discourse? In the case of misogyny, the answer is no (and I would imagine there are, actually, counter-examples. I can’t think of any right now). In the case of misandry, well - as I’ve said before, there’s a huge difference between bigotry wielded by the historically dominant class against the historically subservient, and vice versa.

Comment #5: Auguste  on  11/08  at  05:06 PM

Auguste, you’re really getting at my conflicting feelings about the character of Kelly in the US Office.  I always have seen her as a Cosmo casualty, and I imagine that the sophistication of the jokes about identity on the show pushes away the real-life Michael Scotts who might watch and not get it, so the net effect is not misogynistic.

Comment #6: Sara Anderson  on  11/08  at  05:37 PM

This is why, as a general rule, I don’t watch movies very often.  And uh.. Seth Rogan movies?  I think I’d rather just.. not.  Seth Rogan in a Kevin Smith movie?  I didn’t even know it was a Kevin Smith movie until this post, I had seen Seth Rogan and immediately put it in the “do not want” pile.  Have you even SEEN Clerks?  Mallrats?  I see you going on about Nice Guys on here all the time, Kevin Smith is responsible for the most classic Nice Guy wankfests ever.  Sorry to sound like a douche, but, man… :/

Comment #7: Eric  on  11/08  at  06:00 PM

My chief complaints in the movie were that although allusions to all different types of sex where talked about constantly in the movie, Zach and Miri’s sex scene is basically an incredibly boring cliched romance novel scene. They love each other, so vaginal penetration with simultaneous orgasm is what happens! Duh!
Also, that Miri devolves from being a cool, funny, interesting chick to being a neurotic head-game playing, testing, stereotypical bitch after the sex. I’d break up with her too.

Comment #8: Tenya  on  11/08  at  06:40 PM

Kevin Smith sucks and doesn’t know how to frame a shot or move a camera.

Comment #9: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/08  at  07:25 PM

I enjoyed small parts of the film. The High School reunion with Justin Long (mac guy) and Brandon Routh (superman) was the best part of the film for me. But as soon as Delaney started going on about his “wife” problems my heart sank, cause I knew exactly where they were headed.

And then, once we meet her, she’s the absolute worst stereotype of a black woman anyone could think of. FOR NO GOOD GODDAMN REASON. She’s angry because…, well, if you’re a regular audience member then you’re *probably* going to think she’s angry because that’s just how black women are.

As a black woman, I sat very quietly in the theater during that scene, embarrassed as did my friend who was holding her head the entire time. Top that off with having to watch, week after week, another horrible “angry black woman” stereotype on True Blood I was just DONE with the movie at that point, though I did appreciate Jason Mewes cock. Good for him for doing full frontal and not leaving all the nudity to the actresses.

And count me among the women who are sick and tired of the schubby guy gets the hot girl film. We have a black president, how long do you think it is before we get the female version of those films?

Comment #10: UltraMagnus  on  11/08  at  07:45 PM

So why is that shot of Jay framed by Silent Bob to his left and the lamp above him, dancing, one of my more iconic movie shots?


It appears that Kevin Smith really downplayed the “This is KEVIN SMITH Movie” for this one- perhaps due to his recent flops / early success, he’s going for something a little more low-key.

Comment #11: Indy  on  11/08  at  08:31 PM

And count me among the women who are sick and tired of the schubby guy gets the hot girl film.

I wasn’t aware that there was a sudden shortage of hot guy gets hot girl movies. (Quantum of Solace is out next week, for instance.) Plus isn’t there a whole genre of “ugly duckling” romantic comedies, where the hot guy falls for the goofy girl who turns into a princess, or whatever?

I haven’t seen any of these Seth Rogan movies. Maybe they are that tiresome, I don’t know. (The trailers kind of have been.)

Comment #12: Chet  on  11/08  at  08:40 PM

Saw this film last night. It had some funny moments but I don’t get how anyone takes any of the characters seriously. Its the same bunch of people doing the same bunch of things that they do in other movies only they swapped the roles around a bit. Its not exactly Tennessee Williams. I can’t really even remember much of it except that Seth Rogan makes me nauseous and Miri is a secondary character. As regards the black woman at the end, I didn’t think that was racist. Not very familiar with the angry black woman trope. If anything I thought she was like a variation on the wife from Fawlty Towers. The constantly angry for no reason wife probably is a misogynist thing, but I think its the for no reason thing that makes it so.

Did anyone else see the trailer for “The Unborn”? Now that was kind of fucked in the head.

Comment #13: anon  on  11/08  at  08:53 PM

I’ve lived 26 years without seeing Jason Mewes’ cock, and I like it that way.

Unless it’s able to stand up and have a talking role by itself, it’s not really a selling point.

Comment #14: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/08  at  09:06 PM

“People are not naturally monogamous.”

SOME people are naturally monogamous. Just sayin’.

Comment #15: Samantha Vimes  on  11/08  at  09:15 PM

Chet -
The thing with those “ugly duckling” rom-coms is that the “ugly duckling” is inevitably played by a conventionally attractive, skinny actress. They just slap some glasses and a pair of ill-fitting pants on her and give her some emotional problems. Half-way through the movie, someone gives her a make-over, and suddenly, she’s hot enough to be seen in public with Hot Romantic Lead Guy and all of her problems are solved! Hooray!

As far as I know, this never happens in movies where guys are the “ugly ducklings.” They’re played by regular-looking guys with goofy hair and gigantic guts. They don’t have to diet or slather crap all over their faces or painstakingly remove every unsightly hair from their bodies. At best, they get a more flattering hair cut and start wearing shirts from The Gap. At the end of the movie, the Hot Lady realizes that she loves the fat weirdo slob for who he is and they live happily ever after.

See the difference?

Comment #16: Metal Guru  on  11/08  at  09:16 PM

I wasn’t aware that there was a sudden shortage of hot guy gets hot girl movies.

You would be right, there aren’t. Hot people on hot people is, for the most part, industry standard in mainstream films.

Plus isn’t there a whole genre of “ugly duckling” romantic comedies, where the hot guy falls for the goofy girl who turns into a princess, or whatever?

The problem with those films (see: She’s All That. Wait, on second thought, don’t) is that the “ugly” ducklings in those films aren’t, you know, actually ugly or has the body of Seth Rogen. It’s the Not Another Teen Movie makeover of get rid of the glasses and ponytail type of makeover and them BOOM they’re “hot”!

And you say the “goofy” girl. For the most part that’s a personality and that also needs to be “fixed” in the film. Either she’s a militant feminist who needs to lighten up (10 Things I Hate About You) or she’s totally uncouth and uncultured, i.e. stupid, who needs to be re-educated (Pygmailan and again, She’s All That).

I did think of one film, Hairspray, which had Nikki Blonsky coupled with Zac Effron.

Comment #17: UltraMagnus  on  11/08  at  09:18 PM

Metal Guru beat me to it but seconded.

Comment #18: UltraMagnus  on  11/08  at  09:19 PM

Re: “ugly duckling” movies. The goofy girls in those movies are almost always beautiful actors in real life. In the final act our duckling styles her hair, applies lipstick, removes the glasses and suddenly everyone can see she’s a knock-out. That’s about as believable as specs disguising Clark Kent’s secret identity. Seth Rogan may be a nice guy in real life, but he won’t turn into a typical GQ model if he gets a better hair cut. I’m coming up blank while I sit here trying to think of movies where an average Jane chubby woman (the female equivalent of Rogan) gets the super hot guy. Note: Janeane Garofalo is not chubby.

Comment #19: Kathy  on  11/08  at  09:23 PM

yeah it looks like we were typing at the same time, oh well. smile I haven’t seen Hairspray.

Comment #20: Kathy  on  11/08  at  09:26 PM

I wasn’t aware that there was a sudden shortage of hot guy gets hot girl movies. (Quantum of Solace is out next week, for instance.) Plus isn’t there a whole genre of “ugly duckling” romantic comedies, where the hot guy falls for the goofy girl who turns into a princess, or whatever?

...because the goofy girl is required to turn into a princess isn’t just a little problematic for you?

Can anyone name a movie where the goofy/unattractive girl gets the hot guy just because she is cool and not due to the magical girlfriend makeover scene?

Comment #21: Lexie  on  11/08  at  09:27 PM

“Plus isn’t there a whole genre of “ugly duckling” romantic comedies, where the hot guy falls for the goofy girl who turns into a princess, or whatever?”

the difference is that Seth Rogan stays an ugly duckling and doesn’t turn into a prince. Ditto with any other schlub gets hottie set up, they never get a hair cut and turn out to be flawless specimens of manhood (well i guess you could make some arguments about “10 things i hate about you” but it’s a different set up).

also to whoever blamed kevin smith for the whole ouvr, nah it was John Hughes that really drove it into recent popular culture (I say recent because I’m sure I can find an infinite regression going back well past Chaplin).

Comment #22: Onymous  on  11/08  at  09:29 PM

Does Mewes have like, another job? does he just kind of live on Smith’s couch?

Short answer: yes, he kinda lives on Smith’s couch.

Long answer starts here, and spans several posts.

Comment #23: Thlayli  on  11/08  at  09:29 PM

Kevin Smith is responsible for the most classic Nice Guy wankfests ever

Have you seen Chasing Amy, as Amanda hinted at? There’s a reason Ben Affleck ends up essentially alone and friendless at the end of the film.

Smith makes films about Nice Guys, but he knows they’re Nice Guys. The characters themselves often don’t, they sometimes don’t even ever get their comeuppance, but for the most part (and I haven’t seen this latest) the audience is meant to watch the Nice Guy antics and realize that they’re pretty much choadery.

Comment #24: Auguste  on  11/08  at  11:16 PM

Case in point: Clerks’ Dante does not come out looking reasonable in the “37 dicks” kerfuffle.

Comment #25: Auguste  on  11/08  at  11:19 PM

And count me among the women who are sick and tired of the schubby guy gets the hot girl film. how long do you think it is before we get the female version of those films?

Write it.

Comment #26: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/09  at  01:11 AM

Molly Ringwald ended up with guys way better looking than her in both “Pretty in Pink” and “Sixteen Candles”. In neither movie did she have the magical makeover scene. Haven’t seen it, but I believe the same is true of the leads in “Circle of Friends”.

Comment #27: William Burton  on  11/09  at  01:13 AM

There is no one better looking than Molly Ringwald!  You take that back!

Comment #28: MBL  on  11/09  at  01:19 AM

<blokcquote>Case in point: Clerks’ Dante does not come out looking reasonable in the “37 dicks” kerfuffle. </blockquote>

Huh?

Comment #29: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/09  at  01:20 AM

Fair enough, Donna, but you’ll be waiting at least until a few decades after we’re all dead.  I’m going to let myself enjoy a movie in the meantime.  Given the choice between “no comedy” and “suffering the fact that women are all perfect looking in comedy while men can be slovenly”, I’ll take the latter, and hope the generations after my death get something better.  Hell, we’ve only just begun to realize women can be raunchy and funny.  We’re still trying to argue that women can be funny.  It’s tough, too.  I agree with you, but I also feel that Elizabeth Banks’ prettiness doesn’t detract from her comedy, and I still want to enjoy her.  I’ve had my moments of dissing talented actresses because they’re pretty, and I didn’t like that part of myself.  Pretty women are often judged as automatically stupid, and I don’t like feeding that.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  01:20 AM

Smith makes films about Nice Guys, but he knows they’re Nice Guys. The characters themselves often don’t, they sometimes don’t even ever get their comeuppance, but for the most part (and I haven’t seen this latest) the audience is meant to watch the Nice Guy antics and realize that they’re pretty much choadery.

I’m still trying to figure out this NG thing, what peopel mean by it and so on.  How does what you’re saying apply to, say, “Clerks”?

Comment #31: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/09  at  01:23 AM

Eric, you are making the classic mistake of thinking portraying=promoting.  Which would make it impossible to do a movie about the Holocaust, if you think about it.

SOME people are naturally monogamous.

Sweet.  Where do you meet them, because I’ve never met someone who hasn’t fantasized about another person, switched partners, or mentioned that someone besides their spouse is cute.  Every person I’ve ever known for my entire life had it in them to be with more than one person in their lifetime, but I allow that it’s possible that I haven’t met every type of person.  However, the person who never has urges to have sex with any one else is so very rare that I’ll admit—-I’d think someone was lying if they said that, or just so newly in love that it dominates their brain, and in a year, they’ll renege the idea that one person can be everything to you.

In my world, monogamy is a choice you make, and the happiest couples I know are the ones who have gotten past the idea that if you love someone, you never even *think* about someone else.  Most people agree to a modified form of monogamy where looking and maybe even flirting is allowed, but touching isn’t.  The monogamy myth actually makes it hard for couples to settle into monogamous relationships, because we believe it just happens, which sets a couple up for one thinking they’re an item and the other still dating others, unaware that they were supposed to just know.  At a relatively young age, I found it to be very helpful to state up front that monogamy is only real after both parties sit down, discuss it, and make it real. That way, you can’t throw a hissyfit if someone you like is leaving her options open.  That’s why I rolled my eyes so hard when Miri “tested” Zach.  She hadn’t sat him down and said, “I want to be in a monogamous relationship with you.”  She had negative rights to be upset about it if he slept with whomever he wished.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  01:34 AM

P.A.T., I would consider Dante a Nice Guy in a lot of ways. Here’s a guy who whines all the time about how selfless he is (“I wasn’t even supposed to be here today!”) and all he gets for his trouble is a girlfriend who brings him lasagna at work - but she sucked 37 dicks, dontcha know.

Jay: I dunno dude, that Caitlin chick’s nice, but I’ve seen that Veronica girl doing shit for you all the time. I saw her rubbing your back, fucking comes and brings you food. Didn’t I see her change your tire once?
Dante Hicks: Hey-hey, you know, I jacked up the car, all she did was unloosen the nuts and put the tire on.
Jay: I dunno, she does a lot for you.
Dante Hicks: She’s my girlfriend.
Jay: I had some girlfriends too, but all they wanted from me is weed and shit. Shit my grandmother used to say ‘What’s better, fuckin’, a good plate with nothin’ on it… ’ no wait I fucked up. ‘What’s a good plate with nothing on it?’

As soon as Caitlin walks in the door, he’s ready to throw Veronica over the side, thus unspokenly exhibiting the double standard that Nice Guys want women to choose them for their qualities, but don’t even notice those same qualities in women.

Comment #33: Auguste  on  11/09  at  01:38 AM

Can anyone name a movie where the goofy/unattractive girl gets the hot guy just because she is cool and not due to the magical girlfriend makeover scene?

Ultra mentioned “Hairspray”.  I’ve scrubbed the remake from my brain, but in the original, the fat girl gets the guy because she’s got a good heart and cool moves, and she not only doesn’t have to lose weight, she starts dressing like a beatnik (read: weirdo), and he doesn’t care.  But that’s John Waters, so it doesn’t count.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  01:38 AM

Write it.

I will, Notorious P.A.T., seeing as I’m a wanna be writer working in L.A.

But writing it is the easy part, SELLING IT is going to be a whole ‘nother matter;) And then actually getting it made in the way that it was originally intended? Whoo-boy. I’m sure right now Shonda Rhimes and Joss Whedon could tell you a few things about the best of intentions and what actually ends up on screen and they work in television, where writers are supposed to get MORE respect and creative control. Feature writers? If they don’t do as told then the studio will find someone who will.

To put it mildly: easier said than done.

And to the Molly Ringwald: She was still NOT FAT. And, at least by 80s standards, considered conventionally attractive. She was the “hot” girl who gave Alley Sheedy her make over so she could land Emilo Estevez.

Comment #35: UltraMagnus  on  11/09  at  01:38 AM

Cameron Diaz is on SNL right now.  She ended up with Ben Stiller in “There’s Something About Mary”.

Comment #36: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/09  at  01:42 AM

I will say for Kevin Smith, it’s not a fantasy.  He’s a fat, schluby guy with a skinny wife.  Make of that what you will.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  01:50 AM

Of course, it’s well worth pointing out that overweight women have more sex than “normal” weight women.  Yet romantic comedies do not reflect this reality.  The only show I’ve seen that reflects this is “Roseanne”.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  01:56 AM

“I will, seeing as I’m a wanna be writer working in L.A. But writing it is the easy part, SELLING IT is going to be a whole ‘nother matter”

Well, we have a pair of skilled actors here at Pandagon, as seen in “Sarah Palin Has Lunch With Cobra Commander”.

Comment #39: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/09  at  01:56 AM

I will say for Kevin Smith, it’s not a fantasy.  He’s a fat, schluby guy with a skinny wife. Make of that what you will.

He is. Then again, he’s also… “Kevin Smith”. There is that societal whole “wealth” and “success” thing that works in his favor, and in the favor of a lot of men *coughMichaelPhelpscough*. Having said that I’m sure she really does love him, I’d just be interested to see if she’d have given him the time of day if he’d been in the same physical condition and hadn’t been a successful cult film director (they met when she interviewed him). You could say the same for Judd Apatow as well.

Kevin Smith also puts his wife in his movies, as Apatow does. She was Dante’s overbearing fiance in Clerks II and she was also the high school reunion greeter in Zack And Miri.

Comment #40: UltraMagnus  on  11/09  at  02:01 AM

Well, we have a pair of skilled actors here at Pandagon, as seen in “Sarah Palin Has Lunch With Cobra Commander”.

And you know what? I would totally put both of them in something I wrote, however, for THIS exercise, I don’t think Amanda quite fits the profile of what we’re talking about. Seeing as her physical self isn’t anywhere near Seth Rogen’s. wink

Comment #41: UltraMagnus  on  11/09  at  02:05 AM

Seth Rogen seems to be getting douchier and douchier with each new project.

I think the closest thing to a female version of this kind of movie is the Truth About Cats & Dogs and really only because the guy chooses Janeane Garofalo over Uma Thurman without any makeovers.  And, when it comes down to it, Ben Chaplin and Garofalo are pretty much on a par looks wise, so, big whoop.

Also, Hairspray also kind of bugged me.  I appreciate that John Waters was approaching the fat girl gets hot guy story line as seriously as is possible for him, but I always felt like there was an element of “oh yeah, right” in that film.

Comment #42: keshmeshi  on  11/09  at  03:00 AM

I was going to make a comparison between Smith and Kevin Costner, but a quick Google search reveals that Costner is in fact planning on making a “Dances With Wolves 2”. Boy, is my face red.
The casting of Rogen is a little strange though, since his meteoric rise could mean he’ll soon be taking Smith’s place in filling Hollywood’s quota for fattos.

Comment #43: Vic  on  11/09  at  03:09 AM

I guess I could argue with Amanda and Auguste about whether or not Smith PROMOTES Nice Guy-ism all day, since none of are Kevin Smith, but I’d just like to point out for the record that I saw this coming a mile away because of my experience with Kevin Smith movies…  >_<

Comment #44: Eric  on  11/09  at  03:43 AM

As far as I know, this never happens in movies where guys are the “ugly ducklings.”

Just to be clear - are we saying that Seth Rogan is ugly?

Comment #45: Chet  on  11/09  at  05:14 AM

I never thought so, keshmeshi.  And as a kid when I first saw it, I totally bought it. 

Seth Rogan is normal looking.  He is not a beautiful man like Brad Pitt.  The critics here are pointing out that a woman who was the equivalent of Seth Rogan in real life—-wears a size 12, has frizzy hair, wears glasses and slouches a bit—-is common in real life, but all but banned from playing the romantic lead in a movie.  We consider it a win for the side of realism if an actress like Ellen Page gets onscreen, who is still quite thin, but looks like she has consumed a sandwich in the recent past. 

But truth told, Rogan is still good-looking—-he’s got a nice face, and I’d say he’s actually cute.  I’d notice him if he wandered into my view in real life.  But then again, so is Ricki Lake, even when she was fat in “Hairspray”.  The truth of the matter is that even normal looking people onscreen are on the snazzier side of normal.  Being easy on the eyes is part of being an actor. Waters was lucky to have found someone as pretty as Lake within his restrictions: fat, good dancer, from the area (he only advertised in Baltimore), white (relevant to the role, since the movie is about race), good actress, sweet demeanor.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  12:23 PM

Which is why I guffawed out loud at the idea that I could be an actress, all You Tube silliness aside.  It looks like an easy job from the outside, but even just getting in front of the camera to read a few lines, I see how much it’s not.  That, and knowing actual working actors and people who make videos and movies, I’ve come to realize that people who can fake being real at all are really talented.  It’s sort of weird, like even actors we find kind of boring in Hollywood are far better than most of us could be.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/09  at  12:26 PM

I think it’s all about the confidence, when it comes to the “snazzier side of normal.”

Comment #48: Mandos  on  11/09  at  03:10 PM

I’m with Donna.  I haven’t seen it, and I’m not going to, because she’s hot and he’s not and therefore, it’s a het male fantasy movie.  Try it with either a hot guy, making it fantasy for both genders, or with an average woman like he’s an average man, making it a realism-based comedy like it’s being touted to be.  Otherwise, I pass.

Comment #49: Lisa KS  on  11/09  at  07:29 PM

speaking of het male fantasies, a study was just published that noted that the sexy images of women in men’s magazines hurt the self- esteem of the average guy because he feels he has no shot of ending up with a hot chick (unless you show him images of a schlub and a hot chick as a happy couple).  Am I supposed to feel sorry for these guys who only want a fantasy and don’t like the reminder that they’re probably not going to live it?  Seriously, they wonder why the self-esteem of women is so low?

Comment #50: ol cranky  on  11/09  at  08:27 PM

jason mewes’ cock?  i may just have to go see this…

Comment #51: j  on  11/10  at  12:37 AM

I totally agree with this review. It gets so damn old to see some schlubby-ass dude (who in the movie even says, “Would you eat food I gave you?”, he’s that gross) getting a hot chick, and movie executives would rather shoot themselves than make movies that go the other way around. That movie won’t be made. And while I liked Hairspray, and Circle of Friends, and even Cats and Dogs, those are very rare. Women aren’t selling movie tickets. Oh, except for SATC, but “that was just a fluke.”

I don’t buy for a second that Miri would go for Zack. Even if they are both losers, that girl could and would do better in real life. Period. Now yes, it happens when you are a Hollywood stah, and that’s where these guys are thinking from. But…no.

Honestly, Jennifer Schwalbach, while she seems intelligent from what I’ve seen of her, really, really, really needs a Mooby Burger. She looked scary in Clerks 2.

Comment #52: Jennifer  on  11/10  at  01:00 AM

  And count me among the women who are sick and tired of the schubby guy gets the hot girl film. how long do you think it is before we get the female version of those films?

Write it.
Notorious P.A.T.  on 11/08 at 11:11 PM

It isn’t about WRITING it is about CASTING.  Since het men still rule the world, their standards apply. Which is to say, “attractive” for women is much more strictly judged than “attractive” for men.

I’ve certainly seen this in the theatre - I don’t know how many times I had to fight straight male directors who wanted to cast a very average looking guy for a role that specifies a hot guy. It’s as if “hot guy” means “any guy who is not obviously deformed.”

And of course they always manage to find hot women for roles that specify a hot woman.

They sometimes try to fall back on the old “I’m a het guy and so I don’t know what is attractive in a man” BS. Because hey, he’s just SO DAMN HETERO that it impairs his eyesight.

Comment #53: Nancy  on  11/10  at  03:10 AM

I really liked “Chasing Amy” when it came out, but I saw it again recently and it was a big letdown.  Even though the movie ultimately acknowledges that the Ben Affleck character is in the wrong for going off on a self-righteous tear over his girlfriend’s not-especially-shocking sexual history, it still makes him deeply unlikable, and the movie never recovers from it.  My husband was even more turned off by the second half of the movie than I was.  Also, Kevin Smith likes to resolve conflicts by having a character make an overlong heartfelt speech, and there’s like five of them in “Chasing Amy.”

Both the threesome debate in “Chasing Amy” and the “37 dicks” debate in “Clerks” sort of want to have it both ways: you’re supposed to root for the hero to get over his sexual insecurities, but you’re also supposed to find it shocking and gross that the heroine is such a slut (“slut,” as always, translates to “has had more/kinkier sex than the guy”).  Roger Ebert, in his review of “Zach and Miri,” comments about Kevin Smith: “He’s 38, and he still believes sex is dirty.”  In a way, that’s Smith’s greatest strength as a comedy writer, but it also lends a weird little-Catholic-boy quality to his work, like he’s never quite gotten over the discovery that women have anything at all between their legs.

Comment #54: Shaenon  on  11/10  at  04:09 AM

Can anyone name a movie where the goofy/unattractive girl gets the hot guy just because she is cool and not due to the magical girlfriend makeover scene?

“Muriel’s Wedding” (naturally it’s NOT an American film)

Comment #55: "Fair and Balanced" Dave  on  11/10  at  11:57 AM

As for “hot guy and normal-looking woman” I guess there’s “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”, but even that still has the “makeover” scene.  I’m including it, because realistically; her clothes and her glasses were less about her being “hot” and more about her “Not hiding”.

Comment #56: Antigone  on  11/10  at  03:00 PM

“Can anyone name a movie where the goofy/unattractive girl gets the hot guy just because she is cool and not due to the magical girlfriend makeover scene?”

“The Faculty,” if we’re buying Shawn Hattosy as the hot guy and Clea Duvall as unattractive (Which was how they were portrayed in the movie) was a pretty mainstream movie that had that.

I’m a sucker for any high school movie which suggests that doing drugs and killing your teachers saves the world…

Comment #58: witless chum  on  11/10  at  04:22 PM

“Can anyone name a movie where the goofy/unattractive girl gets the hot guy just because she is cool and not due to the magical girlfriend makeover scene?”

“Strictly Ballroom” Seemed to me that Tara Morice was the plain girl that got the hot guy, Paul Mercurio, in the end.

Comment #59: Chris  on  11/10  at  09:22 PM

It gets so damn old to see some schlubby-ass dude

I guess I don’t get how it’s “old” after, what, six movies? I mean where the hell was Seth Rogan two years ago? Not exactly on the radar, if I recall correctly.

I get the distaste for the genre, because I share it; I just can’t, at this point, call it an epidemic when the only exemplars of the form prior to the Age of Seth Rogan were Revenge of the Nerds I and II.

Comment #60: Chet  on  11/10  at  10:18 PM
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