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Next entry: Not stupid, but evil, part one million Previous entry: Because hard work deserves this reward

Banks are vampires

Economy

Wow, Bank of America is getting rid of its overdraft fees on debit cards. This is how little I trust commercial banks: I’m sure there’s a rub.  I’m sure they’ve found a secret, special way to screw customers that live paycheck to paycheck, and this is all just a P.R. campaign to obscure that.  But maybe not.  Maybe this is how they’re going to be competitive.  Instead of overdrafting your account when you use your debit card and don’t have money, the plan is to have your card denied, which the vast majority of people would prefer, I’m sure.  If this is what it purports to be, then it’s such great news.  Overdraft fees are a pernicious form of usury, a real human rights abuse.  G.D. explains:

In practice, though, many banks enroll their customers in the programs without telling them and assess charges to customers’ accounts out of sequence in order to force them into overdrafting their account…..

But the proliferation of banks in poor neighborhoods has done little to keep the unbanked from opting for “fringe banking services” — check cashing services, payday lenders, and the like. Those institutions charge onerous fees of their own, but unlike the big banks, their fees are explicitly outlined. Customers may cough up $12 for the privilege of cashing a $300 check, but it makes more economic sense than being stuck with miscellaneous surcharges over the course of several weeks for not maintaining a minimum balance, withdrawing money from an ATM,  writing a check, or overdrafting your account — penalties that can accrue much more easily and be much more disastrous when your life is inherently unstable.

However predatory and exploitative you may think the banks are towards the working poor, I promise you that they are much worse than you can imagine.  How do I know?  Well, I used to work at a bank. For the first couple of years I worked at a bank, I had a fairly laid-back, easy existence.  I had a good life working at a branch that served downtown Austin, and I worked mainly with business customers, the people from the bars and restaurants that came in and out all the time because they were moving a lot of cash.  But then I got promoted to manager and moved to a smaller branch in a wealthy neighborhood.  That didn’t worry me overmuch, though.  Working with wealthy customers can be a headache, since they’re so entitled, but at least your customers are making money off the bank and are by and large happy about that. 

What I didn’t realize when I signed up for the job was that I was also inheriting a mini-branch in the mall.  And even though that branch was small and not even really full service, it immediately became the source of 90% of my headaches.  What’s not fun in commercial banking is having paycheck-cashing being a huge part of your foot traffic.  How it works is this: banks don’t cash checks for non-customers, unless the check is drawn on that bank.  Then they have to.  A lot of people who don’t have bank accounts would far prefer to get their checks cashed at the banks, where the fees are usually a lot smaller than those horrible check cashing places.  But the bank management hates these folks, because they don’t make any real money off them, besides the relatively small $3-$5 check cashing fees.  So they make it hellish to cash your paycheck at a bank.  The ostensible reason is “security”, but it doesn’t take even the dimmest teller but a week to figure out how little sense that makes.  (Checks drawn off other banks are riskier to cash, because they aren’t funds verified.  The losses from fraudulent checks aren’t nothing, but are better and more efficiently handled by training tellers to spot frauds instead of putting the customers through some of the security theater they subject them to.)  They had to present one or two forms of ID and put a thumbprint on the check, and since everyone tends to cash their checks when they get them, this level of ID requirements plus the crowds makes the lines unbelievably long.  The people who suffer the most are the poor tellers, cashing one check after another for people who are crabby because they’ve been working all day and this long ass line is the only thing between them and having their cash.


All of this was really bad in a mall, where all the stores would have an account at our branch so their employees could march straight off work on Fridays and cash their paychecks before going out for the weekend.  So having these overworked tellers on my plate wasn’t fun, but it was manageable.  But then things got really ugly, when they changed the district that my branch was in, which meant that I had new management.  Management that was less interested in keeping the wealthy customers that I had signed up to help happy, and way more interested in the earning potential they saw in the working poor who constituted most of the foot traffic in the mall branch.

I was immediately instructed to put most of my time and effort into converting paycheck cashers into account holders.  I resisted.  As I saw it, these people weren’t fucking stupid.  If they wanted a free checking account, they could have one.  There were signs everywhere helpfully explaining that it was free if you had $100 to open it with.  If they wanted to cash their checks and live off cash only, then they had their reasons.  And they were good reasons!  The worst parts of my job were 75% due to people who kept average account balances below $500.  Those were the people who overdrew their checking accounts all the time, and then came in sobbing and begging for relief from what was often hundreds of dollars in overdraft fees.  To make it worse, the bank’s official policy (this is standard) was to clear debits from highest to lowest amount.  In other words, if processing had a rent check of $400 and then fifteen debit card transactions of $5-$10, they took the $400 first, and then the rest.  So if the $400 overdrew the account, then every single transaction after was an overdraft fee.

I may not seem like it, but I’m a human being and having someone suffering from this injustice in front of me—-a regular part of my job—-was enough to suck the life out of me, over and over again.  There’s some things you can do to help, but you have to be careful to fly under the radar, or your own job will be on the line.

So when my managers wanted me to recruit all these paycheck cashers as account holders, I went into shut down mode. It was straight up exploitation of the working poor, an attempt to get people who don’t have a lot of experience with banks to create accounts they’ll immediately overdraw.  From the bank’s perspective, it’s pure profit.  Either the customers pay you for all the fees or, more commonly, you end up shutting down the account and selling it to a collection agency (I think for pennies on the dollar, though I’m not sure), who then tries to recoup their investment through harassment and ruining your credit rating. From my perspective, this was a human rights violation that I didn’t want to be party to.  They went around me, holding training sessions with my tellers to explain how to present a hard sell.  (A big part of it was using the existence of the long lines and multiple ID requirements to sell them, pointing out that this all goes away if you deposit a check instead of cashing it.)  Then they decided to get rid of me, first by hiring someone for a redundant position, and then watching me like hawks to see if I screwed up anything, no matter how minor, and then use that as an excuse to fire me.  So I quit.

I think/hope this goes a long way to explaining how deeply cynical I am that the financial industry has an ethical bone in its collective body.  The minimum wage service employees of the world may seem like human beings trying to get by the best they can to you or me, but to them, they’re marks.  Banks are vampires, and they see the working poor—-and increasingly the middle class—-as nothing but sacks of blood to be drained dry and thrown aside.  They don’t care if their accounting practices ruin you so badly that you lose your apartment and then your job because you have trouble getting to work now that you’re homeless.  They see people coming into the bank cashing $250 paychecks and they see nothing but the huge numbers of overdraft fees they could be racking up on that person, instead of the measly $3 check cashing fee.  And by god, they’re going to get it.

Maybe someone at Bank of America is afraid of hell.  I don’t know.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:00 PM • (71) Comments

Thanks for the insight into banking practices. I’ve used credit unions for more than 30 years now, since my local bank pulled that overdraft trick on me. The day I went in to close my account, I found myself in a whole line of people doing the same thing for the same reason—apparently the bank had decided to drive off small depositors. CUs aren’t perfect, and I keep expecting them to start picking up bad habits from the commercial banks, but I often wonder why nonrich people do any business with commercial banks.

Comment #1: brettvk  on  03/10  at  07:00 PM

Wait, so inhuman money-making machines behave inhumanly? Maybe if we give them all the rights of real flesh and blood people they’ll behave like people!  Especially if we don’t burden them with any of the responsibilities of real people.

This sort of behavior will not change until we seize control of the government and start using its power to regulate and then revoke the charters of unscrupulous corporations who refuse to abide by the rules and confiscate their assets and/or imprison their owners.  The last part is key, because if the capital is left with the owners and the owners left free to roam, they’ll just use it to form the exact same corporation, operating the exact same way, under a different name, and they’ll continue to do this as often as necessary.

Comment #2: libdevil  on  03/10  at  07:01 PM

The Frontline episode, “The Card Game” talks a little bit about some of things you’ve mentioned here, Amanda.  Very enlightening.

Comment #3: Linnaeus  on  03/10  at  07:09 PM

Even the check-cashing fee is outrgeous when you think about it.  After all, cashing that check when presented is part of the bank’s deal with the account holder who wrote the check.

Comment #4: rea  on  03/10  at  07:17 PM

Don’t forget the practice of debiting money from your account right away, but refunds take several days to process on your debit card.  What the hell is that?

Comment #5: GeekGirlsRule  on  03/10  at  07:17 PM

I had this argument with Chase (nee Wachovia). I keep a credit card with a relatively low limit for “online purchases” so that if someone hacks an account somewhere and grabs the credit card information, there’s relatively little damage that can be done. At one point, I was wondering if I had enough money on my card to make purchase X online, so I went ahead and made the purchase, and it went through. So I figured I had enough money because it wasn’t denied. Then I got the bill and got slapped with a $30 overdraft fee. So I called up and asked why the charge wasn’t rejected. And they explained that they’ll do that so that the purchase can be completed. What’s the point of having a credit limit at all if the credit limit isn’t respected and the charge rejected? They made up some bullshit about wanting to spare me the “embarrassment” of having the charge rejected. So I told them that I really didn’t give a shit what Amazon thought of me if a charge didn’t go through (for that matter, I wouldn’t care if some random waiter had to tell me my card was rejected. I’d apologize, hand them a different card, or go to the cash machine). More to the point, not having the credit limit respected completely defeated the purpose of having the special “internet purchases only” card that would limit the amount of damage a hacker could do.

According to them, they put a setting on my account that would prevent overages from being accepted, although I haven’t really tested this out yet.

I plan to cancel this card when it expires anyway. I was getting weekly letter from Chase letting me know that there was Important Information About My Account (read: they were hiking my interest rate while the getting was good). When I called them up to complain, they basically told me Tough Shit. So fuck them. They didn’t make a lot of money off of me anyway because I tend to pay off my balance every month, but they were making money off of the merchants I used the card to purchase from. I’d rather that money go to another institution.

Comment #6: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/10  at  07:19 PM

What always kills me is the attitude that “Well, if these people were responsible with their money they’d avoid all the penalties etc etc.” As if absurdly punitive measures were somehow OKAY because “responsible” folks (read: people who have resources to fall back on when things go bad) don’t need to worry about that sort of thing. I suspect that attitude comes from a similar place that excuses police brutality, abhorrent prison conditions and the like because “if you can’t do the time don’t do the crime” sort of bullshit.

Comment #7: Erik D  on  03/10  at  07:24 PM

GeekGirlsRule—That refund thing is a killer. When I worked for a company that processed online payments to schools, we would invariably get someone who used their debit card and got screwed by this. They would charge something, realize they wouldn’t make rent if they bought it, and cancel the purchase. Then their rent check would be an overdraft because as far as the bank was concerned, they didn’t have enough money in the account.

Comment #8: LC  on  03/10  at  07:27 PM

Wow, Bank of America is getting rid of its overdraft fees on debit cards. This is how little I trust commercial banks: I’m sure there’s a rub.

I read this news yesterday and had exactly the same response. This is BofA we’re talking about—a majorly sleazy outfit. I suspect a variation on the old opt-out bait-n-switch: get people to move from cheques to debit cards (putting pressure on landlords and other merchants who take payment by cheque to sign up for debit processing Web sites), and then after a while re-instate overdraft fees or tack on some new, equally lucrative consumer fee that delivers no real added value to anyone.

Don’t forget the practice of debiting money from your account right away, but refunds take several days to process on your debit card.  What the hell is that?

I call that one The Slimy Floater.

Comment #9: Gracchus.  on  03/10  at  07:28 PM

Banks are straight up evil.  Ugh.

Comment #10: t-ster  on  03/10  at  07:28 PM

@LC - Yeah, I had it happen when a restaurant accidentally charged my card twice.  They immediately refunded the extra charge, but it took nearly a week to register on my account.  And when I called to get the overdraft charge taken off (because it really hadn’t been my fault, apart from that living paycheck to paycheck thing I was doing), they acted like I was stealing food from a baby’s mouth with my insistence that, yes, a restaurant double charging me and then refunding me should not result in an overdraft for the overcharge, because you assholes can’t be assed to process refunds in a timely manner. 

Then, when I had to call in for an actual dispute, they informed me that I had exhausted my “courtesy” refunds of overdraft charges.  Because the guy who had done the reversal hadn’t entered any notes on the why for the reversal.

Wait, it was a courtesy to not charge me for someone else’s error. 

Yeah, I realize it’s my own fault for being poor.  I’ll get right on that for you, sparky. GRRRRRRR

Woo, been a couple of years and that still pisses me off.  Well, I’m off to a relaxing Dr. Appt.

Comment #11: GeekGirlsRule  on  03/10  at  07:44 PM

This is why [url=“http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2010/03/why_i_mo
ved_some_of_my_money_t.php”]I moved my money to a local bank[/url]:  the service is better and they’re better for the community.

Comment #12: Mike the Mad Biologist  on  03/10  at  07:50 PM

It’s not like they are going to simply accept less profits.  So if they can’t get them from screwing people over with overdrafts,  what’s next? I guess we’ll have to see. 

In theory, it would benefit poor people to get bank accounts, as long as they got rid of the asinine practices that cause overdrafts (reordering transactions so the largest goes first, processing debits before credits, charging overdraft fees that essentially amount to higher interest rates than a payday loan).  It makes me sad to see the people who can least afford it paying ridiculous check cashing fees, money order fees, and payday loans simply to pay their bills.

Comment #13: rebelliousjezebel  on  03/10  at  07:55 PM

As a kid, I got my first bank account with a major credit union for state employees (of which my father was one).  They are awesome.  I would routinely pull shit like forgetting to make my car payment until the next one was almost due, and they never charged me for it.  My overdraft went into my savings account, so if I screwed that up, they just paid it out of the money that they already knew I had, and didn’t charge me for it.  If there wasn’t anything in the savings account (as tended to be the case at the end of a semester), they’d put it on my credit card without charging me for the favor, and I had a 45-day float on that before they started charging interest.  They don’t charge anyone to do anything at their ATMs, nor do they chrage you for using someone else’s—in fact, if you have to use another bank’s ATM and that other bank charges you a fee, my credit union would *pay you the fuck back*.  It took kind of a while—I think you got it the next month—but it was all automatic, you didn’t have to fill out a form or anything.  And they put the refund in your highest interest-bearing account, so if you forgot about it, it would earn you a couple of cents.  Awesome.  Oh, and if they make too much money in a given year?  They send you a fucking check.  (Not a particularly big one—it’s happened maybe twice, and it was like three bucks, but still.)

So you can imagine how shocked I was when I moved to another state and had to change banks.  They charged me for Every Little Thing!  They charged me for not having enough money in my account!  They charged me for using their ATMs.  They charged me for using someone else’s ATMs.  they charged me again for withdrawing less than $20 at a time, regardless of whose ATM it was.  If I went over my balance, they’d charge me a huge fee and interest on the money they floated me started right away. 

Fortunately, I never canceled my account with the state employees credit union—when I first got the account my dad had set my allowance up as a direct deposit from his paycheck (and somehow has not to this day gotten around to stopping that, even though I’m over 30), so I had that account to come back to when I moved back to my original state.  I’m so glad I don’t have to worry about any of this shit.

Comment #14: A.  on  03/10  at  08:04 PM

Fortunately, there are some new regulations out there that were part of the CARD act (I believe) that requires banks to clear the smallest transaction first.

Of course, this whole thing where they’re ending overdraft fees is certain to contain an evil underbelly.

The banks need to be destroyed.  I wish the Department of Justice would do its job.

Comment #15: jerry_101  on  03/10  at  08:17 PM

i have, over the course of my career, had occasion to audit many banks. what you point out is true, but there’s even more to it than that. the trendlines that i have seen, over the past 30 years, show an almost straight-line increase in the % of gress revenue from non-interest bank products (fees & charges) of all types, overdraft fees being merely one of many. honestly, the first bank i audited was an eye opening experience, when i realized everything i thought i knew about banking was flat out wrong.

dracula is benign, by comparison to the banking industry.

Comment #16: cpinva  on  03/10  at  08:18 PM

Banks scare the shit out of me.  The bank I had to use while in college was awful.  They charged me for not not using my card.  They deactivated the card if I didn’t use it for a certain purchase amount every certain number of days.  It was a pain to reactivate and might have also incurred a fee (I can’t remember).  There were overdraft fees, fees for not keeping a minimum balance, and other crap I can’t remember.  My parents used a credit union and both the places I’ve lived since moving out, I’ve managed to find one, too.  I will never go back to a bank unless under duress.

Comment #17: bomberE  on  03/10  at  08:37 PM

Hold it. Are you telling me that the financier class is comprised of parasites?

*faints*

Comment #18: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/10  at  08:39 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I had the same experience with my first ever credit card.  I knew I was getting close to the balance and used it in my apartment’s laundry room assuming it wouldn’t let me charge more than I had.  Instead, they let the transaction go through, charged me a penalty, and hiked my interest rate.  All as a courtesy.  Because I would have been SO MORTIFIED if the machine in my basement had not been able to process my transaction and I’d had to bum quarters from a friend.  Grrr.  And it’s not just refunds that take a while-they’ll sometimes hold other deposits, too.  My sister got slammed hard by overdrafts because they didn’t immediately deposit her work check but processed her debits quite efficiently.  Even though they handed her a statement, after taking her check, with it included in her balance.  Bastards. 

The organization where I work has started to do financial literacy for the “unbanked”-mostly immigrants, mostly lower income-who tend to get targeted by payday and car title lenders or stand-alone check cashing places-and we do it all in conjunction with credit unions.  Because the banks are just as bad.

Comment #19: acallidryas  on  03/10  at  08:47 PM

I have a dream that a day will come when things will get so bad that the 95% of us that have to fight over 1% of the pie decide to all collectively take out as much credit as we can possibly get, spend the money, and then universally default on the debt.  What will they do when the whole fucking country decides not to pay them back and tells the collectors to go fuck themselves?  Ruin everybody’s credit?  And?

I say crush the fucking beast.  Force the entire capitalist system into bankruptcy.

Comment #20: DTG in STL  on  03/10  at  08:52 PM

Thanks for your story Amanda - very interesting stuff indeed.
I have been using credit unions since I moved to Seattle back in 1998 after having a bank account with Norwest bank back in Minneapolis. I was stunned at how much better the credit union was at… well.. everything.
I used to work for a credit counseling service (not as a counselor but as phone intake/appointment setter) and heard so many horrible stories about banks (and plenty about credit cards too) that I do NOT trust them either.
On the money tip - I’m pretty afraid of investing anything and have beeen scouting around for some advice on CDs or IRAs and the like for a while. If anyone knows of any sites that they like or books that aren’t by Suze Orman please do let me know. I’m a total n00b so having things explained is better than not.

Comment #21: Danica Lefse Queen  on  03/10  at  08:54 PM

You can’t count on credit unions being all fair and lovable.  I know of at least two here in Oregon that engage in some of the same outrageous behaviors that are being described here.  So it would pay to check out what their policies are on such things as overdrafts and how long they hold checks before crediting your account etc. before opening an account.

Comment #22: Older  on  03/10  at  09:06 PM

My Dad has been on my to switch my accounts to USAA for some time now, and I’m even more convinced that the second I graduate college, I will transfer my finances to USAA, instead of BofA

Comment #23: lemur  on  03/10  at  09:09 PM

Credit unions tend to be more tightly regulated than banks, IIRC, due to the credit unions’ tax exempt status.  Banks, of course, have attempted repeatedly to limit credit unions’ membership through the legislative process—so far unsuccessfully for the most part.

I have a special place in my heart for my credit union, since they are the only financial institution I’ve been involved with that has not relentlessly pushed credit limit increases on my credit cards.  Sometimes it’s good to be told “no.”

Comment #24: Captain Bathrobe  on  03/10  at  09:14 PM

As a BoA customer, and one who is fairly smart about money, I got hit three times in college with debit card overdraft fees.  Once it happened twice in a row, on purchases of literally a couple of dollars.  On a meager college allowance, it hurt pretty bad, and I learned fast.

I even got sent a letter that I had an opportunity to receive a credit from BoA because someone in California had sued and won over undisclosed overdraft fees.  I don’t recall ever receiving the money that was promised after I sent in my form.  They’d probably claim the Postal Service lost it.

Nevertheless, because I bounce around (and out of) the country a lot and like to keep my money easily accessible, I stayed with BoA.  I realize that with online banking and major-brand debit cards accessing accounts from local banks is easier than it used to be, but I just feel insecure if I can’t locate a branch within 50 miles of me.  Especially if I need cash in a hurry.

In the last few weeks, however, I have been furious with BoA.  They charged me $4.00 just for me to look at the balance of my checking account from a non-BoA ATM.  That’s ON TOP of the $2.50 they charged me to withdraw from cash, which is on top of the $2.50 the fricking ATM charged me for the transaction.  So basically I withdrew $29 and only got $20.  This wasn’t a cash advance from credit.  It was from my own goddamn paycheck.

I hate dealing with cash; it’s easy to lose, impossible to recover, can’t be spent online (where I do the majority of big purchases) and my dogs eat it when they find it lying around.  On othe other hand, I hate the fact that credit card fees make disgusting profits off every single card purchase I make.  I feel like I can’t win, and I suspect that’s exactly how they want me.

But I may yet decide the $4.00 “looking” fee was the last straw.

Comment #25: Caelan Aegana  on  03/10  at  09:23 PM

Older @22: ooh, if you know about credit unions in Oregon could I get a name for somewhere good to try? I’m currently with BoA but if there’s a nice alternative in the Portland area I could be very onboard with that. smile

Comment #26: Bagelsan  on  03/10  at  09:31 PM

After reading this thread, I am left thinking, “AND WE BAILED THEM OUT INSTEAD OF LETTING THEM GO OUT OF BUSINESS?!?!?!?

I mean, they could ALL be out of BUSINESS!!

Comment #27: KMTBERRY  on  03/10  at  09:39 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,  you need to get a new “internet only” card BEFORE you close the chase card.

Even when a customer decides for good reasons to close an account, closing it lowers your FICO score.  The game is rigged.  If you try to use the “free market” and leave a bad card, your FICO drops and the next bank is less likely to give you a card.

To keep your credit rating good, you apparently are just supposed to suck it up.

I also read how the credit cards are getting around the new regulation: they are upping the interest rate to 29% while they can and “rebating” it back down to 11%.  That way, it’s not an “increase” when they decide to screw you later, it’s just a return to the real rate.

They need to be in jail.  Only way to end it.

Comment #28: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/10  at  09:40 PM

I’ve been a credit union member since 1994, and have never looked back. The bank I had before that was really quite decent and never gave me much trouble, even though I was the very definition of the working poor at the time. But when I moved to another state to go to grad school, the profs and other students all told me the credit union was the way to go. And man, were they right. They never charge me for anything, they phone me up to remind me to pay the mortgage when the deadline gets close (I wish we’d never bought the place, so I always Freudianly forget), they went to great time and trouble to set up a trust account for our daughter after she was born, negotiated with the evil credit rating agencies on our behalf when the guy with my same name who was born on the same day got another goddamn fraud conviction, etc… they’re just great. I highly recommend them whenever I get the chance, because when I hear these banking horror stories I just can’t imagine why anyone would put up with that crap.

Comment #29: felagund  on  03/10  at  09:54 PM

I got a call yesterday from Capital One, who I have a credit card with.  After telling me the conversation wouldn’t take long, the guy on the phone gave me a lengthy song and dance about how this new law Congress had passed had made it so that features had been removed from my account unless I opted back in.  Turns out, he was talking about this business of letting you go over your credit limit and charging you a fee (in this case $29).  He asked me did I want to opt back in to this.  Dude asked me THREE TIMES if I was really really sure that I didn’t want this feature, asked me why not, and then started trying to talk me into it when I finally lost it and told him that I thought I had been clear that I didn’t want it.

I felt bad after.  He’s just some random guy, and I bit his head off.  I don’t usually lose my temper like that.  But still.

Comment #30: human  on  03/10  at  09:55 PM

It’s not really a matter of having the DoJ or any other government agency do its job. It’s that the entire legal system regarding public corporations is underdeveloped.

If a corporation commits fraud or steals, what’s the punishment? Probably very little because there’s nothing to charge. Personally I think that a major progressive initiative needs to be fixing this huge oversight (or lack there-of).

For example, if a corporation puts policies into place that are obviously fraudulent, what should happen is that they are fined a percentage of their revenue for the year/a number of years. This would scale the punishment to the size of the company.

And in the cases of severe crimes…say fraud or intentional policy wrong-doing that resulted in the death of someone, well. What you do in that case is you close the company down. Or maybe you turn the company into a co-op run and operated by the rank and file workers. Or something like that.

But there are several things that are clear.

#1. The company as a whole needs to be punished.

#2. Shareholders need to lose a percentage (or even their entire) investment

#3. It needs to scale with the size of the company.

Comment #31: Karmakin  on  03/10  at  09:57 PM

All my creditors hate me with a purple passion. 

I’m rather surprised they haven’t tried to lower my credit score because of the fact that I have never overdrawn any of my bank accounts and I pay all my credit card balances in full, every month, before they are due. 

I’m sure the folks at Ford Motor Credit and Toyota/Lexus Financial hate me too, given that I paid off one car loan 6 months early, and paid off the other a year early, so I snatched back a goodly portion of interest that they were likely counting on as revenue for making those loans.

I also have plans to payoff my mortgage early, and save a shit ton of interest that I’d have otherwise had to pay to GMAC. 

Honestly, I can’t figure out why any of them continue to make me loans…

Oh yeah.  They all know that I do litigation for a living, and sue corporations like them all day long, and would have absolutely zero hesitation about suing them, too.  It’s unfortunate that the threat of litigation is all these crooked bastards understand. 

Oh well.

Comment #32: Mezosub  on  03/10  at  10:21 PM

They also process debits in the morning and credits in the afternoon.

And all this is—ostensibly—because banks couldn’t compete on interest rates for savings accounts or low rates for credit cards any more, because of the financial risk involved.

In addition to credit unions, there are smaller banks that don’t act this way—until they get bought out by the bigger banks.

I’m betting the next thing they’re going to do is figure out how to get more merchants to do “pre-authorization” (the way they do at gas pumps and some hotels, essentially faking a charge for the most you could be on the hook for, and then rolling it back when the real number is available). The hold amount stays on the books for about a day, so if lots of merchants start doing this people will run up against their balances pretty quickly, and the banks will be glad to “reinstate the overdraft protection” and start running up fees again. And it will only take another 15 years for the Fed to rein them in.

Comment #33: paul  on  03/10  at  10:53 PM

My brother-in-law works with a family of very recent Burmese immigrants who were more or less pressured and tricked into opening a “free” account at Bank of America that had some large amount of hidden fees attached to it.  I don’t know how much they took them for in the end, but I do know the English proficiency of the father is so limited it took my brother-in-law a while to explain to him what was going on.  The poor guy just went in there to open an account and ended up getting taken advantage of.

Comment #34: BrianD  on  03/10  at  11:07 PM

Pfff.

I’ve been at a Credit Union ever since I was 17. They are just as bad.

They use to charge $25 for overdrawing your account, for each charge. (I’ve been charged $150 dollars in overdraft fees twice. One time my Direct Deposit didn’t go through and a bunch of charges I made, thinking my check was in the bank, went through. I managed to get those reversed. The second, in July of that year I made a $200 cash advance from a credit card (through Chase). In September, Chase decided, on a technicality, to deny that advance, and the $200 was withdrawn from my account without notice. I badly overdrew my account before I discovered what happened, but this time they claimed they could only reverse two of the fees, leaving me on the hook for the remaining $100.)
>
But that was then. Now they will simply deny the charge…and charge you an insufficient funds fee of $27 for each charge that doesn’t go through.

(At least before the bill I was overdrawing my account to pay, got paid!)

Comment #35: Ruby  on  03/10  at  11:08 PM

Damn, paul.  Now I can’t get it out of my head.

“Oh, I debits in the mornin’
An’ I credits in the evenin’
Until them ledgers be right”

(Accountant in “The Producers,” in a nod to “Old Man River”)

Comment #36: oldfeminist  on  03/11  at  12:54 AM

http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1659

(Seems relevant.)

Comment #37: mr_subjunctive  on  03/11  at  01:14 AM

over the past 30 years, show an almost straight-line increase in the % of gress revenue from non-interest bank products (fees & charges) of all types, overdraft fees being merely one of many.

This is what has been so toxic about our country for the past 30 years.  Banking has always been a reliably profitable industry, and it used to be that that was pretty much okay.  Using people’s deposits to make loans and make profits from those loans was enough.  But now it’s all about squeezing as much money out of people as possible.  And the fact of the matter is:  without us, they would have NOTHING.  They can’t make business loans, home loans, equity loans, any kind of loans without their depositors.  Asswipes.

Comment #38: keshmeshi  on  03/11  at  01:31 AM

My mom worked for a bank for over 20 years with most of that time being in phone customer support.  She liked it because she was good at it, got health insurance for all of us, and felt like she was providing a service for people.  She got laid off from the first bank when they consolidated phone support into one state and found another job of the same type at a different bank.  She only lasted a little over a year at that bank due to the predatory practices that left her feeling bad about herself each and every day.  People would call after being screwed over by some fee or other and she wasn’t allowed to refund them or do anything that made sense.

Comment #39: Erica  on  03/11  at  02:50 AM

re #19:  Bank teller was one of my first jobs, and I seem to remember (it’s been a while)  that one wasn’t allowed to put a hold on a payroll check - I thought they said it was by law - though it could have been just the courtesy of a community bank that knew the big mill was unlikely to bounce a check and that it’s customers were all neighbors of the bank president.  Anybody know it it was by law?  Just curious.

Comment #40: phylosopher  on  03/11  at  03:19 AM

Comment #21: Danica Lefse Queen on 03/10 at 06:54 PM

On the money tip - I’m pretty afraid of investing anything and have beeen scouting around for some advice on CDs or IRAs and the like for a while. If anyone knows of any sites that they like or books that aren’t by Suze Orman please do let me know. I’m a total n00b so having things explained is better than not.

I’d start by checking out Vanguard.  They’re the lowest-cost retail mutual fund provider in the world, and probably the most honest too.  Their site has sections with very good advice.  I’d highlight their sections on saving and investment education, retirement and investing truths

There are a few investment advice books that are very good, and you can find some in your local bookstore.  Two key authors to look for are Burton Malkiel and John Bogle.  A couple of good ones:

A Random Walk Down Wall Street: The Time-Tested Strategy for Successful Investing by Burton G. Malkiel

The Little Book of Common Sense Investing: The Only Way to Guarantee Your Fair Share of Stock Market Returns by John C. Bogle

Comment #41: sacundim  on  03/11  at  04:33 AM

I have to add one more recommendation to my list in #41:

The Four Pillars of Investing: Lessons for Building a Winning Portfolio by William J. Bernstein

From skimming it on Google Books, this one may well be my favorite…

Comment #42: sacundim  on  03/11  at  05:29 AM

The comments about credit unions being just as bad reminded me that the place I picked when I moved to another state was…also a credit union.  I just picked that one without looking at the options because I assumed it would be the best—and it may have been, but it wasn’t nearly as good as the place I was used to.  So yeah, don’t make that mistake, either.

Comment #43: A.  on  03/11  at  07:39 AM

@ LEMUR:  DO IT!  I am with USAA.  I lurrrrrrrrrve the bank.  When I have to deal with people at any other bank or insurance company or anything, I am always SHOCKED at how rudely I am treated.

I don’t get charged for using my bank card.  I don’t get charged for using other banks’ ATMs.  I don’t get charged for anything really.  I use them for my car insurance, homeowner’s insurance, investing, banking.  I would have used them for buying my house, but in order to get the free finished basement I had to use the builder’s mortgage company.  I agonized over that for two days before signing papers.  And all it did is reinforce to me why I should never leave USAA evar.  As soon as I can do it, I am planning on converting my mortgage over to USAA.

One month I was short on money and couldn’t make my car payment until I got paid about fifteen days after the due date.  They held payment for me until I had the funds available and I didn’t get charged and they never hesitated to do it. 

Everyone should go to USAA.  If I remember correctly, they are open now to all civilians, not just the military and their dependents.

Comment #44: speedbudget  on  03/11  at  08:46 AM

@ Ruby:
“But that was then. Now they will simply deny the charge…and charge you an insufficient funds fee of $27 for each charge that doesn’t go through.

(At least before the bill I was overdrawing my account to pay, got paid!)”

Amanda, there’s your rub!  I heard this on NPR the other day.  Now, instead of having the charge go through and getting an overdraft fee, the charge bounces like a bad check, initiating a NSF fee.  Like Ruby said, now you don’t get the charge paid AND you pay a fee anyway.  Great work, Fed.  They (the banks) lose nothing in this charade.  Imagine how much MORE carefully you’ll need to watch your account now.  If your card is declined: boom, fee.  For BoA it will probably be $35.  Plus they have new fees, like having your balance negative for a certain number of days initiates a fee.  BoA will continue reaping MASSIVE profits.

Comment #45: Aureas  on  03/11  at  11:04 AM

This is why I joined a credit union. After they were fleeced, these institutions have been forcibly subjected to all sorts of government intrusion that protect account holders.

When you figure out what the catch at BofA is, let us know. I doubt your fear of hell theory because the devil is afraid of the bankers taking over hell and they know that.

Comment #46: DC Fem  on  03/11  at  11:12 AM

Wow.  These stories are making me exceedingly glad I have neither credit cards or a checking account.  I pay all my bills at a local store and anything that can’t be paid there gets a money order mailed to them.  I have only a savings account at a credit union which will cash checks for me.  From these stories, it’s pretty damn clear I’m missing nothing by not having credit cards and accounts with banks.

Comment #47: Gypsy Lee  on  03/11  at  11:15 AM

Yeah, I had a strong feeling that was the case.  Maybe it was the $$ signs instead of pupils in my bank manager’s eyes when I deposited a large check they totes wanted me to invest in their investment program - for a fee, of course, and then a monthly fee after that even if the account didn’t earn any money.

Rather than watch my money drain away in fees, I spent it myself.

Comment #48: attack_laurel  on  03/11  at  11:20 AM

i second the USAA love. not only what speedbudget said, but also they don’t charge you to have a savings account (which never made any sense to me at all) which actually does accrue a decent amount of interest. they also let you do ALL your banking online without any wacky fees or anything (i’ve now gone completely paperless, which is AWESOME).

plus, the car insurance is great. i didn’t drive (and thus had no insurance) for 4 years in college, but when i bought my car i called them from the dealership and got insured right then and there. they are awesome.

Comment #49: akzidenzgrotesk  on  03/11  at  11:34 AM

@49:  We use my husband’s CU for all our loans.  We’d have used them for our mortgage if they’d been able to finance us (the land was too far away and too unique for them to manage).  I keep a single checking account for the convenience, but make all my purchases on Amex so that I have to pay them off each month and can’t get overdrawn.

That doesn’t stop my bank practically begging me daily to use their “services” (money pits) for all my “banking needs”.  Every time I make a large deposit (thanks, Mum!), they badger me for weeks trying to get me to do something other than keep it in my checking account for a short while until I transfer it to Hubs’ Credit Union savings account.  I do not trust those fuckers as far as I can throw them, since I watched my ex-husband get $10,000 in debt with his bank overdraft (at 29% and a charge every time something was added to it).  His credit rating (and that’s a rip-off, too) was shit.  I got out from that, and now I have a great credit rating, but it’s not like I did anything special, which convinces me that the whole thing is arbitrary and designed to benefit the banking industry.

And credit card companies, who do delightful things like “forget” to send you a bill, and then up your interest rate and charge you a penalty because you didn’t pay.  I used to keep store cards, but they all switched to credit cards with Visa, and again, the arbitrary interest hikes are evil.  No store cards for me!

Amex has its issues, but they’ve treated us well for over 15 years now.

Comment #50: attack_laurel  on  03/11  at  11:58 AM

Banks are vampires,


Nope, vampires are marginally cool, and at least have the relative mercy of -killing- you, instead of extending the agony endlessly. Banks are evil ghoulish leeches, monstrously swollen to larger than their victims, dripping vitriol and the blood of the poor.

Comment #51: firefall  on  03/11  at  12:05 PM

I’m thinking of USAA too,  because I want the interest, especially after stories like this: http://gawker.com/5490848/bank-of-america-steals-pet-parrot-from-wrongly-foreclosed-home

It’s the second one of these I’ve heard about. BOA breaks into a house they don’t even have a note on, does damage, then claims they’re foreclosing——and treats the owners like shit in the process. I hope they get sued out of existence, myself.

Comment #52: ginmar  on  03/11  at  12:05 PM

I’ve been pretty happy all-in-all with USAA. I’m going to do my banking with my local bank (they know who I am and they’ve been pretty good about addressing my concerns) but maybe I can switch to USAA for my credit cards.

Comment #53: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/11  at  12:16 PM

@Danica Lefse Queen #21

The Credit Union that I go to has financial services reps that are free. They’ll talk to you about everything from investing, to savings planning and retirement planning. They can do investments for many different brokerages and even have access to their own brokerage firm.

Comment #54: Vir Modestus  on  03/11  at  12:32 PM

As others have said, thank you for the inside insight.

Comment #55: James  on  03/11  at  12:39 PM

I’m skeptical of what Bank of America is doing, too. There just has to be a catch.

I was one of those lowly bank tellers at a grocery store branch several years ago. By far, my least favorite job ever. I dreaded Friday afternoons and all the paycheck cashiers. It was stressful and depressing dealing with cranky and the down-and-out.

Comment #56: Olivia  on  03/11  at  12:41 PM

I received one of those letters from BOA.  By the way BOA is stalking me.  I get a credit card, BOA buys my bank, I cancel and get a new card.  Repeat.  The letter made it sound like BOA was going to do all these new things for me because they care so darn much but I thought every one of the changes was required by the new credit card bill.  Am I mistaken?

Comment #57: carovee  on  03/11  at  12:52 PM

So I figured no time like the present and looked into USAA’s credit card services, then had a lovely discussion with one of their reps and they’re looking like they’re the way to go. Their APR is 8.9% (as opposed to the 19-23% APR that the other companies have jacked up to) and they’ve got a bunch of nice perks like travel insurance/rental car insurance etc). The guy was very straightforward and told me that MasterCard may have restrictions on certain countries, so it’s best to call ahead before your vacation to make sure the card works there. Stuff like that actually makes a good impression on me—being told in advance that Some Restrictions May Apply is a hell of a lot better than finding out after the fact. Looks like they’re actually going to reject charges if they exceed your credit limit (instead of charging you extra for violating some arbitrary line that means nothing). So I’m starting the switch.

Comment #58: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/11  at  12:54 PM

* sorry, I meant that there might be restrictions on certain countries for the travel rental insurance, not that the card wouldn’t work in some countries.

Comment #59: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/11  at  12:55 PM

I worked at a bank in the 80s, when ATMs were first introduced. We were encouraged to talk them up to our customers, as electronic banking is way way way cheaper for banks than teller banking. (No overtime! No benefits!) When they began charging ‘convenience’ fees for something that was already a profitable undertaking, and all the other banks jumped on the premise instead of positioning themselves as a more economical alternative, well, that was the beginning of the end.

Comment #60: benvolio  on  03/11  at  01:01 PM

Seconding the endorsements of credit unions, even though I have been using a national bank these days.

Never use debit cards as a credit card (just get a regular ATM card and get a real credit card). Never buy checks from your bank. Never use the “investment services” they try to convince you to use at a retail bank. All of these are used as opportunities to rip you off.

Nthing the recommendations of Vanguard and USAA, too.

Comment #61: Tyro  on  03/11  at  01:14 PM

I suppose one good thing about the credit crunch of the last year or so is that I no longer get weekly solicitations in the mail for more credit cards.

Comment #62: Linnaeus  on  03/11  at  02:00 PM

The solution for B of A (and the rest) will be to charge you a “card denied” fee any time you use your debit or credit card but do not have the funds to cover.

I had this brought home to me a few days before the new legislation went into effect. We have a low limit card we keep for renting vehicles and for small emergencies. They called us ten times a day in the week that the legislation was to come into effect, asking us if we wanted to remain opted in for “overdraft” (elastic limit) protection. We said no, several times, before they gave up. Just at the end of the conversation, the person on the other end told us we may face a future charge were we ever to exceed our credit card limit and have a transaction denied.

Of course, it costs literally nothing for a card transaction to be denied, unless they decide it suddenly does cost something.

Evil fucks, the lot of them.

Comment #63: Fallsroad  on  03/11  at  03:00 PM

Comment #54: Vir Modestus on 03/11 at 10:32 AM

The Credit Union that I go to has financial services reps that are free. They’ll talk to you about everything from investing, to savings planning and retirement planning. They can do investments for many different brokerages and even have access to their own brokerage firm.

You should triple-check how these supposedly free reps get paid, and make absolutely sure that they don’t get compensated when you decide to invest in their recommended investments.  Many “free advisers” are in fact mutual fund salespeople working on commission.

Even if they don’t get commissions from your investments, or getting you to invest, it’s very easy to end up getting “advice” from somebody who has a conflict of interest.  The simplest case is that the rep may simply be expected by their supervisors to steer people into the credit union’s services.  Alternatively,  the rep might not be making a commission, but they could still be compensated in a way such that they get bonuses from steering more money into the company.

This is very important because for a lot of people, the right answer on how to use the money in question is either to pay off debt, or to invest it with their employer’s tax-advantaged retirement plan.  A representative who gets paid by a company that sells you investments has a disincentive against recommending those options to you, no matter how you cut it.

Comment #64: sacundim  on  03/11  at  03:07 PM

Based on the many recommendations on this thread for USAA, I got curious and had a quick look at their site to try and see their investment options, and I was very much not impressed.  Their site lists their funds, but it will not tell me upfront what the expense ratios are, or any information about the portfolio composition of the funds.  Every click that looks like it will lead to information instead leads to a signup screen, which is absolutely ridiculous.  This unwillingness to be upfront about the investments they’re offering is pretty disturbing.

They also have a page listing their “highly rated funds.”  This is not good.  Those industry mutual fund ratings mean nothing, and shopping for funds based on them only leads to bad things.  The most important things to consider when shopping for funds are portfolio composition and expense ratios—which are, of course, the two things that their site won’t tell me.

All the info is available in third-party websites like Morningstar, but all it reveals is that USAA is vastly inferior to Vanguard as an investment shop.  Their assets under management are much smaller (USAA: $32 billion; Vanguard: $1.1 trillion), their expense ratios are about 4 times as much as Vanguard, and their fund selection is inferior (the two biggies: no US total stock market index fund, and no international stock index funds).

It looks like USAA’s banking, insurance and lending services are very well-regarded.  I’d stay away from their investments, however.

Comment #65: sacundim  on  03/11  at  03:14 PM

It’s good to know I interpreted my experiences with a certain bank correctly.  Basically before my former employer closed its door and declared bankruptcy, they were bouncing pay checks like mad.  If you tried to deposit your paycheck you had no chance of getting your money (and my banked charged me a fee for depositing a bad check too.  how was I supposed to know for the first one or two especially when the accountant looked me in the eye and told me there was enough money in their account and it was safe to deposit it as their money troubles had been dealt with?).  One of my co-workers actually had the company’s bank check the account before she tried to cash the check, and in between the teller checking the account and actually setting up to cash the check, the account ran out of money.  So yeah, your only chance of getting your pay check was cashing the check with the company’s bank, and even then it was about fifty-fifty odds. 

Every time I cashed my check the bank would make the experience really shitty for me, and give me the hard sell for getting an account with them.  And they made a great big deal about how all my problems would go away if I got an account with them!  ‘Cause that would totally make my employer not bounce checks!  They even flat out lied to me about being able to safely deposit these checks when I explain the reason I was cashing them with this bank.  Some of my co-workers had accounts with this bank, but even they got returned bounced checks complete with high returned check fees.

Comment #66: laterose  on  03/11  at  03:15 PM

All those returned check fees that employees get charged when their payroll is NSF are recoverable as damages.

Additionally, writing a check that the maker knows is NSF or will be NSF, is a crime.  I believe that the HR managers of any firm that bounces payroll checks should be arrested and treated the same as petty thieves. 

It’s terrible to have to sue one’s employer in order to get one’s wages, so I really think we should make a new HR rule so it’ll be okay for job seekers to tell interviewers that they left their last position because the managers misappropriated corporate funds and couldn’t cover their wages in payroll. 

If only.

Comment #67: Mezosub  on  03/11  at  04:27 PM

I just have to say that, after years working for banks in my own country, I just cannot believe that banks get away with operating like this in the US.  The idea of processing debits out of order, or of actually processing debits before credits is just insane.

Comment #68: Theadosia  on  03/11  at  07:03 PM

@41: I’d also recommend The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham (I own the more recent edition with some commentary by people at Money magazine, but it actually adds to the discussion by bringing in more recent events). It’s quite solid and dispenses mostly rather common-sense advice, though the clamour and noise of professional investors tends to obscure that a lot elsewhere. To give you an idea of how…powerful it is, Warren Buffet is largely inspired by Graham in how he invests.

I personally use Wells Fargo for banking, but that’s largely legacy, as I got the account just before going to college and my mother is a cosignee, so it was them or BoA. Since I have both zero income and zero expenses to all intents and purposes, it’s hard for them to be terribly painful.

Comment #69: truth is life  on  03/12  at  12:39 AM

I visited the US, from Britain, for the first time at Christmas.  For part of my trip I stayed with friends and had to cash my cheques in a bank, not a hotel.  At first I was stunned by the sheer number of different banks in a medium sized town in rural Maine, but my friends soon rattled off a list of pros and cons, including some problems that we don’t have over here due to enforced legislation.

I tried to cash my cheques at a bank (which had a drive thru!  I was quite excited by that) and after presenting the travellers’ cheques and asking if the forms of ID I had on me were acceptable (as they had been in every other place - I’d leave my passport in a safe place and use my driving license, plus I also had some credit cards and student identification) the really surly clerk began to process my cheques.  Very slowly.  She tried to charge me a fee, but I pointed out she couldn’t do that, and then having written on the cheques, got the processing numbers, registered them with the central organisation and got me to make them out, told me that my ID wasn’t good enough.  It was $100, on New Year’s Eve, just before closing time and most places were shut by then anyway.  It was also snowing like anything outside and my friend had to drive me home, get my passport and come back.  I was even more shocked when she called the bank from the car and they’d already locked the doors - fifteen minutes before closing.

I loved the US and I loved the people I met, but banks seem to be the one place where that famous customer service is absolutely nowhere to be seen.  Certainly compared to the service I get at home, it was terrible.

Comment #70: rosecloke  on  03/12  at  08:13 AM

Comment #69: truth is life on 03/11 at 10:39 PM

41: I’d also recommend The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham (I own the more recent edition with some commentary by people at Money magazine, but it actually adds to the discussion by bringing in more recent events). It’s quite solid and dispenses mostly rather common-sense advice, though the clamour and noise of professional investors tends to obscure that a lot elsewhere. To give you an idea of how…powerful it is, Warren Buffet is largely inspired by Graham in how he invests.

I have that edition of the Graham book, and I don’t think it’s that good of a read today anymore—the commentary between the chapters is easier to read and more useful than the book itself for somebody new to investing.  Graham wrote before index funds were invented, so he never advices you to use them as book for today should.

Also, the bulk of Graham’s book is about picking stocks, analyzing earnings statements and so on. This is the stuff that that a passive investing strategy is precisely about notdoing.  A book that emphasizes asset allocation and index investing is going to provide effective advice that’s much easier for a beginner to implement.

Plus, damn, Graham really loved to fancy up his writing.

Comment #71: sacundim  on  03/12  at  10:40 PM
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