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Battlestar Galactica pre-mutiny thread

It seems, so far, that injecting the failure of the Earth mission into “Battlestar Galactica” has reinvigorated the show, which was going slow at some parts in the first half of season 4.  Last night’s episode was kind of shocking to me, because for the first time, the struggles that put the Quorum at odds with Roslin and Adama finally started to resonate emotionally.  Even though I know what the creators are trying to do—-inject some gray areas, and make sure that Roslin and Adama don’t lapse into saints—-it’s never quite worked, because it asks you buy into two assumptions that just don’t work.  One is that humanity wouldn’t immediately accept martial law under such dire circumstances.  Considering that our nation happily re-elected itself an obviously malevolent wannabe dictator because of shockwaves from an attack that killed .001% of our population, I fail to believe that they wouldn’t go even further when the actual survival of the human race is on the line, and the leaders are benevolent and repeatedly demonstrate that they’re going out of their way to save everyone.  Hell, even people like me who think they have to close Gitmo down and release all the prisoners immediately would accept some form of martial law under the circumstances, especially with a duly elected executive.  Most representative government is supposed to move slow, and that’s at cross purposes with the majority of decisions made under fire by Adama.  The other thing is that a lot of disputes would have easily been cleared up if Galactica was more communicative, and I don’t believe that Adama or Roslin would have a major problem with transparency, as a general rule.  Adama’s story about Earth doesn’t quite fall under that, because that goes into the bucket of National Mythology, which gives people something to strive for even if we haven’t achieved it.  (Like the way we call ourselves a people that believes in equality and justice.) 

But post-Earth?  I believe that people would revolt against military rule, especially if it’s been 4 long years of fighting.  The military orders in this episode—-install faster jump drives in the civilian ships—-were something that doesn’t seem like an “under fire” decision, but more like an infrastructural decision of the sort that is usually made after democratic deliberation.  And frankly, the buddy-buddy relationship with the Cylons just doesn’t seem like it would make sense to your average civilian who has not been privy to the cooperation and almost-friendship that the people aboard Galactica have had with the rebel Cylons.  Transparency would help in this situation, but not so much, because seeing the Cylons as people requires direct experience with them, especially since they, you know, killed billions of people. 


I’ve been somewhat at odds with the idea that humanity could ever forgive a Cylon at all, but the show has been pretty good at portraying the average “racism” of your average person, and showing that all but a slender few are able to set aside their reservations and pretty much only Helo has really embraced the idea that Cylons Are People, Too.  But a couple of details have made it entirely believable to me that the Galactica leadership would suck it up and start dealing with Cylons as if they were people with understandable motivations.  The first is that the Cylons made the huge sacrifice of destroying their ability to resurrect, which would seem to me to be a show of good faith strong enough to get them citizenship (though I sympathize with why you’d never want to).  The other is seeing Earth, and realizing that the cycle of violence destroys everyone in the end, and the only choice is to stop trying to get revenge and try something different, like friendship. After the show ended, I had the crushing realization that perhaps all this could have been averted had they extended this citizenship to Cylons decades ago. 

But yeah, they’ve definitely sold me on the mutiny to come.  I’m glad there’s some payoff to the trials and tribulations of Gaeta, because frankly, it was hard to watch him suffer so much.

On the whole, they crammed a lot in to discuss: Now we’re back to one Cylon/human hybrid (and Callie sucks even more), Roslin has decided she should live a little before she dies, and we get confirmation of what we’ve known forever, which is that Adama and Roslin are lovers.  (We watched it at the Alamo Drafthouse, and some dudes behind us started squawking and carrying on at that moment about how gross it was that old people were having sex.  One said, “I’m never having sex again,” at which point I leaned over to Marc and said, “Nor, apparently, in the past.”)  Thoughts? Observations? Speculation?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:55 PM • (50) Comments

I actually thought that Adama and Roslin hadn’t slept together before this episode—ie, that they were only able to consummate all that flirting while in the process of total breakdown.

And don’t you think Zarek is kinda scratching the Bush itch for the colonists? He’s sure got the violence and xenophobia down pat.

Comment #1: jericho  on  01/24  at  03:20 PM

Damn, I can be First, and I haven’t seen the ep yet. (We had visitors over last night).

I hope my recording is any good.

Comment #2: Mark Foxwell  on  01/24  at  03:22 PM

Good points all.  I also think (after having watched the webisodes) that Gaeta’s motivations are deliciously complex.  He has every reason to be thoroughly disenchanted and pissed, but he’s also projecting a lot of guilt.  Gaeta’s the perfect tragic character around which to build the mutiny, as Zarek has proven himself to be compromised in far more mundane ways.

Overall, I think the first two episodes of the second half were decent, and I hope that they’re building up to something satisfying.

Comment #3: Sam Holloway  on  01/24  at  03:26 PM

I mean, when the civilians get riled up about Democracy!, they’re not really concerned about balance of power and dynastic ambition and the high principles of the constitution—right? It’s just a way to reject Adama and Roslin in favor of the demagogue who’s willing to echo fear and anger back at them.

Sam: I’d say these two episodes were damn good, maybe some of the best since the first season.

Comment #4: jericho  on  01/24  at  03:33 PM

Isn’t there a single person in the fleet who is curious as to how the final five were two thousand years old? Or where Fake Kara and her Fake Viper came from? Or the whole deal with ancient Cylon skeletons on Earth?

Comment #5: Michael Clear  on  01/24  at  03:53 PM

I don’t think Roslin and Adama slept together before this either. It was Roslin telling Adama that he deserves to live, too, that pushed them into it. I am very concerned that she has apparently given up on leading the survivors and now just wants to have sex and go jogging.

As for why nobody is curious about all the Final Five/Earth stuff, I dunno either. I get why the average people wouldn’t be, cause maybe they didn’t know all the stuff about how the Final Five are different, and after finding a devastated Earth (after being promised that it would be a new home for them), they just want to lash out. I expect we’ll get some answers about it in a few more episodes but I could certainly be wrong.

Comment #6: apsalar  on  01/24  at  04:56 PM

“Isn’t there a single person in the fleet who is curious as to how the final five were two thousand years old? Or where Fake Kara and her Fake Viper came from? Or the whole deal with ancient Cylon skeletons on Earth? “
For real. The revelation concerning Earth populated by cylons 2000 years ago was HUGE, probably the biggest in the show yet. Why didn’t they stick around a little bit and try to figure that out?  I find it a little unbelievable that they just up and left after that kind of discovery.
I can understand the Starbuck thing not being a topic on the fleet because only she and Leoben seem to know about that for now.
Also:
What happened to Number Three? Is she still on Earth like the last episode suggested?
Are they ever going to reveal anything about the Six in Baltar’s head or is that storyline just going to be left behind?

Comment #7: AdamN  on  01/24  at  05:04 PM

Are they ever going to reveal anything about the Six in Baltar’s head or is that storyline just going to be left behind?

This is the sort of revelation that I imagine will occur close to the very end of the series—it seems like the “head Six” and “head Baltar” are connected to the show’s deeper mysteries about the origin of life in the universe and the final destiny of both the humans and the Cylons.

I imagine that these characters will probably start trying to unravel all of these mysteries that developed on last week’s episode fairly soon—as soon as they’ve dealt with the crisis at hand.  It makes perfect sense to me that these questions would take a backseat to trying to figure out how to survive now that Earth seems to be out of the question.

Comment #8: Bradley  on  01/24  at  05:20 PM

This probably says more about me than about Ron Moore, but I took the whole thing as Moore’s having a very tragic view of human nature; a lot of what’s happened in the last year and a half on Battlestar seems like a consequence of people being unable to step outside their preconceived notions and, really, unable to learn new things.  One of the funny things about the experience of watching the show is that for all the audience’s experience of mystery and hunger to know more, we at this point know a great deal more than any one character, and are much better at assimilating new information into our view of the show’s events than the characters within it.

While I thought the standoff in the episode where they find Earth was kind of ridiculous, Lee’s offer to cooperate with D’Anna, to step outside the preconceived behavioral patterns bounded by his own ignorance, was the bravest character moment in the series, and for all her flaws, D’Anna’s grudging acceptance was almost as brave.  But no one else is that brave: (Admiral) Adama simply can’t get over his abiding distrust and contempt for the democratic government, a contempt which let’s be honest Roslin fostered, and even the humans close enough to the Cylons that we could expect they’d learn something new, like Gaeta or the Viper pilots, can’t.  I don’t like the Tory character (I think she’s an interesting character, but I don’t enjoy her the way I enjoy Baltar or Starbuck) but when she advised Roslin to consider what else she could be wrong about, she said the smartest thing anybody’s ever said on the show.  Of course no one can take her advice.

(Now, while it was a defining character moment for Lee early in the run, does anybody else think in hindsight that the pragmatic thing would’ve been to let Starbuck shoot Zarek on the Astral Queen?  The show would’ve been very different.)

Comment #9: medrawt  on  01/24  at  05:29 PM

Yeah, it does seem that they may have to come back to “head Six” in order to explain what’s going on with Hera.
“I don’t like the Tory character (I think she’s an interesting character, but I don’t enjoy her the way I enjoy Baltar or Starbuck”
I think Tory is pretty interesting as well but I think that her character hasn’t had enough screen time to become enjoyable. The episode where she killed Callie set her up to be much more exciting but with other then her talk with Roslin aboard the Cylon ship, I don’t think the writers have used her to her potential since then.
The worst of the final five cylons in my opinion is Sam Anders. He’s just a really boring character, the only thing he does as a Cylon is add more interest to Starbuck who didn’t really need any help in that area.
I think Ellen Tigh, however, is going to be really interesting in the episodes to come…

Comment #10: AdamN  on  01/24  at  05:42 PM

I’ve really loved Gaeta’s character for a long while.  I don’t like where he’s heading, but that’s not the same thing.  In a just world, Alessandro Juliani would get an Emmy nomination - along with Michael Hogan, and the rest of the cast.

And Richard Hatch gets to go out with a bang!  I love it!

Comment #11: idiosynchronic  on  01/24  at  05:53 PM

Isn’t there a single person in the fleet who is curious as to how the final five were two thousand years old? Or where Fake Kara and her Fake Viper came from? Or the whole deal with ancient Cylon skeletons on Earth?

Does the rest of the fleet know about that?  They’re keeping the Final Cylon under wraps, and presumably Tigh spilled the beans since Lee let it slip that they know the Final Cylon is a woman.  It seems plausible that the rest of the fleet only knows that Earth was obliterated and don’t necessarily know that the Earth inhabitants were Cylons.


Another reason why Adama and Roslin might not have slept together yet is that their relationship only really started to get serious when her cancer returned.

And Zarek’s actions are making complete sense.  Under dire circumstances, he decided to ditch the terrorist/freedom fighter past and try to change things from within the system.  Now that Earth has been revealed as a complete fantasy, it makes sense that he’s given up and is falling back on his old tactics.

Comment #12: keshmeshi  on  01/24  at  06:02 PM

The worst of the final five cylons in my opinion is Sam Anders. He’s just a really boring character, the only thing he does as a Cylon is add more interest to Starbuck who didn’t really need any help in that area.

Agreed. Pretty, though; I keep hoping he’ll take up Naked Cylon Yoga one of these days, but that seems to be just for 8s.

Actually, it’s kinda interesting how the (straight) male gaze really ratchets up when the camera turns to Cylons. The treatment and casting of the human characters is a lot more balanced.

Comment #13: jericho  on  01/24  at  06:25 PM

I still think Lee Adama is by far the sexiest guy on the show. He definitely needs to spend more time on BSG without his shirt on. Helio’s pretty cute too.
I do think BSG is also much more comfortable with female homosexuality then male homosexuality (sorry but the whole Gaeta bi thing felt a bit like crumbs).

Comment #14: AdamN  on  01/24  at  07:03 PM

I liked the scene with Adama and Roslin at the end—very sweet, not overdone, and I liked that she wasn’t wearing her wig.

One interesting thing about Callie—when she tried to commit suicide with the little boy, I always assumed that she wanted to kill the kid as well because he was half Cylon.  Now it turns out that she knew the kid was not Tyrol’s… kind of puts a different spin on her actions.

Comment #15: LauraB  on  01/24  at  07:04 PM

I thought Baltar took an interesting turn this week.

Comment #16: Roxanne  on  01/24  at  08:05 PM

I’m not sure what’s up with Gaeta’s orientation. His crazy girlfriend 8 didn’t seem to think he was bi: “I’m a woman, and a Cylon. I didn’t seduce you—hope did,” or something like that.

So, Starbuck! I think both dead Starbuck and fake Starbuck are basically a new Cylon created by Cylon God, which itself is merely the gadget originally designed to manage Final-Five-style reincarnation.

Comment #17: jericho  on  01/24  at  08:08 PM

I think Gaeta’s tuned out to be a certain kind of “office politics” troll. Like the people you work with who read a certain kind of “how to get ahead” book in the 90s.

So, I’m not entirely sold on his bi-ness either, anymore.

Comment #18: Roxanne  on  01/24  at  08:23 PM

I thought Ellen’s comment to Col Tigh before they were killed on Earth hinted that they had just created the resurrection ship and that’s why they would see each other again.
And Starbuck isn’t Cylon but crash-landed on Earth after falling through a wormhole into the Earth of the past, and was somehow copied ship and all and only resurrected after the original had disappeared to avoid any temporal paradox.

Comment #19: Childe O' Grace  on  01/24  at  08:43 PM

Res Ship: Okay, maybe. I’d been assuming the Hub was something the current Cylons put together after leaving human space, but if it was actually an artifact of the previous Cylons—well, that would explain why they can’t just rebuild it.

However, I don’t think this wormhole theory is really going to cover it. For example, why would a wormhole make the new copy of her ship all shiny and undented, and why would the Four out of Five suddenly realize that it was pointing the way to Earth? There’s clearly some agency behind Fake Kara above and beyond some random wormhole glitch.

Comment #20: jericho  on  01/24  at  09:01 PM

Something’s been bugging me since Season One.

Baltar was unable to create a test to determine who was Cylon and who was Human.  Yet Cylons are supposed to be machines, and Cylon-Human breeding has been near impossible.  If they are so identical that DNA tests can’t even work, what exactly is the difference between Humans and Cylons?

Or is this perhaps the point of the show?  If “Earth” is really Earth (as Moore has said it is), then are we Cylons?  Are the Cylons the Thirteenth Tribe?

Comment #21: Hawes  on  01/24  at  09:13 PM

Hawes, Baltar’s Cylon detector worked, as far as we know. The only reason no one on the show thinks it worked is because it “failed” to catch Boomer. Except that it did, but Baltar lied about her results. After she was revealed to be a Cylon, we can assume the rest of the testing was halted and thus, none of the other Cylons were revealed.

At any rate, they were able to determine that the skeletons found on Earth were Cylon, so they’ve got some way of telling the difference now.

But I do think the questions you ask still stand. They’d better start explaining things soon. They’re running out of episodes.

Comment #22: SuzanneM  on  01/24  at  09:28 PM

I think it’s a good bet that the nuked Cylons were the 13th Tribe that left from Kobol. Where we fit in the history is more of a mystery, but if we’re Cylons then we’re Cylons who learned to breed and gave up resurrection and limited models and technomagic and projection—so we’re probably not the Cylons that Sam, Tigh(s), Tory, and Chief were chilling with when the bombs hit. We’d have to be Cylons at another point in the great big cycle.

Comment #23: jericho  on  01/24  at  09:40 PM

jericho on 01/24 at 07:01 PM

For example, why would a wormhole make the new copy of her ship all shiny and undented

I didn’t explain myself well enough. I meant to say Kara Thrace fell through a wormhole into the past and crash landed on Earth and for some reason the resurrection machine built by the Cylons on Earth copied and reproduced her and her ship at a point in time later than her disappearance. Perhaps Kara having those weird premonitions before she went missing was due to her being ‘entangled’ with the Kara who had made it to Earth and crashed.

Comment #24: Childe O' Grace  on  01/24  at  10:44 PM

Overall great episode, but I was a bit annoyed with Admiral Adama’s complete lack on interest in playing politics and convincing people to go along with the new alliance.  Well, ok, it fits perfectly for the Admiral, with his general contempt for democracy and explaining himself to the public.  But you’d think that Apollo would be smarter than that.  The initial Cylon attack, after all, was aided by the use of computer code (introduced by Caprica 6 and Baltar).  Of course they will be a bit wary of the Cylons screwing around with their <strike>hyperdrives</strike> FTL’s.  I would also expect them to come up with something a bit more convincing to the people of the fleet than a “permanent alliance.”  That doesn’t strike me as a great idea militarily, either.

Isn’t there a single person in the fleet who is curious as to how the final five were two thousand years old? Or where Fake Kara and her Fake Viper came from? Or the whole deal with ancient Cylon skeletons on Earth?

My assumption has been that most people aren’t really worried about this stuff.  Sure, we want to understand the mythology of it, but would someone stuck on a refinery ship for the rest of their life care?  After the debacle with Earth, are they really going to put much stock in the mythology?  The final five are just more murderous toasters to most people.

Comment #25: rufustfyrfly  on  01/24  at  11:07 PM

Hawes, Baltar’s Cylon detector worked, as far as we know. The only reason no one on the show thinks it worked is because it “failed” to catch Boomer. Except that it did, but Baltar lied about her results. After she was revealed to be a Cylon, we can assume the rest of the testing was halted and thus, none of the other Cylons were revealed.

But Baltar tested Ellen. There was the tag at the end of that episode where Head Six asked him something to the effect of if he’d ever reveal the truth and he said no in that smug way of his. At the time I think we were supposed to be lead to believe that he DID know who was Cylon and who wasn’t (because he knew Boomer was) but I think over time they had to drop that idea in order to further the rest of the stories. Remember; Balter tested all the the high ranking Galactica officials because Commander Amada asked for it, so he’d also tested Tigh. Of course, the “reasoning” that he perhaps didn’t catch either Ellen or Tigh is that they’re both “special” Cylons or whatever. I still don’t like that fucking dues ex machina in order to explain away why the Cylons are way older than they should be (in Tigh’s case) or why the other seven didn’t know about them when they damn well knew there were 12 models to begin with (Remember, in the mini series Six told Baltar there were 12 models, she was number six).

I will admit that I’ve become pretty “meh” for this season. Like Michael Clear and Adam N, you just found out that that an entire tribe was nothing but Cylons, human looking Cylons when you believed that they’d only been a recent invention. Even if you don’t involve the rest of the fleet wouldn’t you want to figure out what the hell happened? Have a team left behind or something? I know that in the end all will be explained so it doesn’t bother me that much but I’d prefer to see those episodes first, though I know once all that’s explained they probably fear most fans would lose interest.

Comment #26: UltraMagnus  on  01/25  at  12:04 AM

A point here about cylon detection: Whether Balthar’s original method worked or they ever came up with a way to test, the cylons quite certainly have ways to discover if a body is one of their own, and they were part of the team on Earth doing the tests.

Anyway, I am also quite moved by the current direction of the show now that Earth has turned out to be a scorched relic. Throughout its four years, the highs and lows, the good episodes and the not so good, Battlestar Galactica has been a complicated, at times difficult to follow yet still in all a lovely, operatic event—dare I say Shakespearean in its depth, because like the poor tragic story of Hamlet you know it will end in tears with the hero lying dead, but can’t look away until the curtain drops.

Perhaps Battlestar Galactica will not, finally, come to a close as tragedy. But at this moment in time it sure feels that way, and I am nearly breathless in my anticipation to find out.

Comment #27: Penon  on  01/25  at  12:14 AM

Perhaps Battlestar Galactica will not, finally, come to a close as tragedy. But at this moment in time it sure feels that way, and I am nearly breathless in my anticipation to find out.

When you look at how battlescarred and old the Galactica itself is, I don’t see how it can survive another battle or keep from breaking down at some point.  I don’t know what will happen to the characters by the end of the series finale, but I don’t see the Galactica itself surviving.

Comment #28: Tommykey  on  01/25  at  01:07 AM

Thank you for the correction, UltraMagnus. I’d forgotten entirely about the Ellen-testing plot point. But then, as you say, we don’t know what the bleeding hell is supposed to be so special about the Final Five and blah blah blah…. I’ve been pretty frustrated with this entire season.

Comment #29: SuzanneM  on  01/25  at  01:58 AM

Interesting developments which leave me wondering where the writers are headed.

Galactica is not a strict serial. While watching Sine Qua Non I was thinking, “screw this, what’s going on with the Cylon Civil War.” This was answered in the next episode The Hub. With this in mind I think they will return to the 2,000 year old Cylons on Earth story arc.

For at least the last season, or season and a half, I have been thinking the Cylons were acting more “human” than the humans. Both the humans and the Cylons have exhibited the human traits of being ruthless, coldblooded and heartless but the Cylons have had in ways more depth and compassion (also human traits). I was thinking they were all going to end up on Earth and together create our ancestors. That the Earthlings (the 13th Tribe. Us) were Cylons all along was not that much of a surprise although I loved it.

It will be interesting how this mutiny plays out. I do not think Adama will have that many loyal troops. I am thinking they will end the mutiny with Adama/Roslin/Cylon faction victorious but perhaps not as they have pulled switches on us in the past. We could find Lee, Bill and Roslin in the Brig and Gaeta and Zarek on the Bridge.

The “anti Cylon/human” alliance forces have the numbers to win any civil war and wouldn’t take much literary acrobatics to accomplish.

For the Adam/Roslin faction to win would take a Deus ex machina (full pun intended). Perhaps Cavil’s Cylons will find the fleet and the rebel Cylons will make some type of sacrifice, their BaseStar perhaps, to save the fleet. This will win the Colonials over and end the civil war. they will welcome the surviving rebel Cylons—likely without the FTL upgrades as that would change the balance of power.

Penon says, Throughout its four years, the highs and lows, the good episodes and the not so good, Battlestar Galactica has been a complicated, at times difficult to follow yet still in all a lovely, operatic event—dare I say Shakespearean in its depth, because like the poor tragic story of Hamlet you know it will end in tears with the hero lying dead, but can’t look away until the curtain drops.

God I hope so! That would be Fracking Fantastic! Certainly Adama, Roslin, Lee, et al (the Cylons too) have committed enough hubris to justify a classical tragic ending.

As for Ellen being the 5th Cylon. Saul killed her before the destruction of the Resurrection Hub. She is likely downloaded and with Cavil. I was slightly disappointed, I was hoping the fifth Cylon would be Starbuck’s mysterious Viper. I mean who is to say all five have to be humanoid?

As for Kara, I have no clue where they are going with her character.

It has been a fun ride. They are not afraid of killing or altering major characters which makes each episode much more suspenseful. No matter what happens you know that Ba’al is not going to kill O’Neal. On Galactica you never know who might end up dead; Lee, Bill, Roslin? All fair game. makes for great story telling.

Comment #30: Colorado Dave  on  01/25  at  02:16 AM

I warn you all—last week I let myself get sucked in to the whole “speculate as though it is all going to make sense in a science-fictiony sense” vortex. I wound up ranting about Atlanteans and magical technology and golems and hexed (as opposed to nuked) planets (Kobol). That way madness lies.

I would like to repeat a pet peeve I’ve developed—when counting Cylon “models,” there is now no room for the mechanoid versions—the Centurions, the Raiders, not even the Hybrids. It’s hominoid chauvinism, I tell ya! These mysterious “final Five” count more than the actual “toasters” who fought the 12 Colonies to a draw 40 years before, apparently.

Which removes the whole thing from the realm of science-fictiony speculation in a straightforward fashion—no longer can we just assume that whatever a “Cylon” is, they stem from the products of Colonial engineering that rebelled. Nope, we pretty much have to assume that there is something to the cycles other than some kind of deterministic inevitability, and that the “final 5” imply either that they themselves, or some third entity or entities, have been lurking behind the scenes rigging the game all along.

It can still be science-fictiony if we guess that the Final Five need some kind of machinery—evidently a “Reincarnation” rather than “Resurrection” hub. But at this point, it is all looking more downright mystical—that there is something inherent in the Universe itself about these cycles and the mechanism of resurrection/reincarnation, etc.

Otherwise, for instance, why should there be “12 models” of Cylon (whether that counts mechanoids or, evidently, not)? It doesn’t seem like a very logical decision; the Cylons act more like it is that way just because, and if it makes sense at all it would not be for reasons they understand.

For anyone trying to construct a timeline—remember, we are given just 2 timeframe data points.

1) Earth was devastated 2000 years before the episodes.

2) The prophet Pythia lived 3600 years before, in one of the 12 Colonies.

We are also told the Colonies were formed by people fleeing the destruction of Kobol, which we were shown was a real place but with no one living there. Presumably this exodus was more than 3600 years before the series timeframe, and so at the latest, if we assume that the devastation of Earth falls in our near future (as the look of things in the flashbacks Tyrol and Tigh experienced would imply) then the destruction of Kobol would have been at latest, some time during the Roman Empire—at the very latest, 400 CE, when the Empire was disintegrating but still somewhat extant (even in the West, I mean—the Eastern Empire lasted another 1000 years). Or it might have been considerably earlier, depending on how much time you want to allow for the colonies to be reached and settled before Pythia’s lifetime. Thus the removal of humans to Kobol would have been earlier still, in early Classical times at the latest and perhaps long before that; conceivably before the rise of civilization on this planet.

And if I continue to try to marshal evidence and draw inferences and try to figure out how the timing of alternations of “cylon” and “human” mesh with all this, I will be going on about magical Atlantean golems and Galactic hexes again, so here is where I stop for now.

Comment #31: Mark Foxwell  on  01/25  at  03:23 AM

Yeah I’m curious what’ll happen with Baltar now. He moved pretty fast from the one true god to “fuck god, he’s an asshole”. He seemed relieved that the fight broke into his speech, like he’s not really sure what he’s going to do now either.

That’s funny about people being uncomfortable about Roslyn and Adama getting down… they’re not even that old… maybe it’s because she’s bald? dunno.

Each model has the memories of every other one of their model, right? So they’re personally culpable, but they’ve also moved to reject their previous actions… it’s difficult. I had a real life conversation about this not that long ago about how the japanese and germans, who we despised 60 years ago, are now both allies. At some point it becomes necessary to decide to bury the hatchet.

I’m irritated at how democratic rule is treated in the show. It’s as if it’s an annoyance that’s barely tolerated in order to prevent a full scale uprising. The quorum never has anything useful or beneficial to add. They’re always just a speedbump.

Comment #32: banisteriopsis  on  01/25  at  04:41 AM

“if we assume that the devastation of Earth falls in our near future”
I think that is where I am having a problem with your analysis. I don’t think that the devastation on Earth is near our future. Sure it looks not to far from our future but then all the colonies looked pretty familiar to us as well. I think it was part of the decision of the creators of the show not to make anything look too “future-ry” in general, in order to make it see more realistic to us as contemporary viewers then say Star Trek. So I think it could very well be Earth in the future that was devastated and I would bet it is as making it too close to our time would put the show closer to it’s earlier cheesier incarnation.
But I could be totally wrong of course…

Comment #33: AdamN  on  01/25  at  05:19 AM

That’s funny about people being uncomfortable about Roslyn and Adama getting down… they’re not even that old… maybe it’s because she’s bald? dunno.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be *that* old, but Edward James Olmos is 60 at least.

Comment #34: keshmeshi  on  01/25  at  05:40 AM

Adama and Roslin have been fraking off and on since New Caprica—remember the same night Lee and Starbuck slept together? It was strongly implied Adama/Roslin did as well and they’ve both referred to that night. In terms of “old people getting it on”—I think that its more than just old people, but intimacy such that “performing” desirability wasn’t part of their love making. Roslin was more naked than any woman that ass who laughed where Amanda watched the show has ever been in his company. She didn’t have the wig on, she didn’t even have the scarf—and those things for cancer patients aren’t about their comfort, but the public’s. She was able to make love and be loved by a mature man who values her as a full-fledged human being, and not an object. That is something that is rarely if ever depicted on TV.

Gaeta: watching the webisodes really helped me (is helping me) to understand how he’s moving to rebellion. I think a huge part of who is knows himself to be was ripped from him when he learned that crazy 8 on the shuttle used him on New Caprica to get information to hurt the resistance. All through the earlier part of the season, when Kara practically spat in his face and he was universally reviled as Baltar’s minion, he had the secret reassurance that HE really did prevent deaths, that he was part of the resistance all along. How it played out in the public didn’t matter to him as much, he was going to die in the airlock—he wanted to live, but it wasn’t about the public, it was about the truth for him. Now, he’s learned that that truth that he clung onto, was in part a lie. He helped the resistance, yes, but he also helped the Cylons. This makes him incapable of trusting the intentions of the Cylons in terms of their aiding the fleet with their technology. Its very reasonable. One Cylon, a Sharon he made love to, appealed to his compassion, his better nature to try to “save” humans, but instead she was having them executed. In terms of his bisexuality, I’m buying it. At least in his eyes, he seems very much able to convey an unconfused, comfortable bisexuality. Even the “I guess a pity frak is out of the question” came off as a moment that reinforced his comfort with himself sexually. I think right now, his strain with Hosi is that he is still Adama’s man, so just like other couples who have political disagreements, maybe their relationship won’t last for a very reasonable set of circumstances.

This post is long already, so I won’t do the whole, this is what I think BSG is all about, but I do think that Earth will HAVE to be revisited, at least in story if not physically and that Starbuck is up for a major reveal soon—I don’t know what it’ll be, but she’s suppressing her feelings and that always blows up in her face.

Ellen: I’m still not sold on her being the final five. I mean, how will the baby thing with the six and Tigh play out with her? I still think the older model of a six makes a certain sense.

Comment #35: Thealogian  on  01/25  at  11:29 AM

But Baltar tested Ellen. There was the tag at the end of that episode where Head Six asked him something to the effect of if he’d ever reveal the truth and he said no in that smug way of his.

Not quite.  Six asks him and he sort of grins and says, “I’ll never tell…”  Remember that the test itself took some absurd amount of time and Baltar guessed that it would take him 60 years to test everyone in the fleet.  And then he and Six have a conversation about how “everybody passes these days.”  I doubt he ever tested Ellen, nevermind anyone else in the fleet, aside from Boomer.

Comment #36: LauraB  on  01/25  at  12:13 PM

Thea, I always thought Buffy and Angel’s famous sex scene was about that kind of intimacy, as well.  It had to have been—-Angel lost his soul because he forgot himself for a minute, which is a setting-aside of ego that hollering choads have a problem with.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/25  at  01:03 PM

I feel kind of alone in this, but I’m not assuming that the BSG timeline is occurring anywhere near our present one, nor am I assuming that the Earth in the series is our Earth. I just think it’s just meant as a code for viewers to signal “ancient habitable planet”.

My theory is that the 13th tribe were humans, but at some point over the 1600 years they altered themselves into something similar to human-form Cylons. During that time they invented all the neat Cylon tricks like downloading, projection, etc. After Earth was destroyed they headed back to the colonies leaving crumbs like the Eye of Jupiter. Once they got back to the colonies, they encountered the mechanical Cylons and guided them into becoming human models, and built new bodies for themselves. Either that, or they showed up before the robot Cylons existed and influenced the events of “Caprica”.

Comment #38: Juan Stoppable  on  01/25  at  03:17 PM

I feel kind of alone in this, but I’m not assuming that the BSG timeline is occurring anywhere near our present one, nor am I assuming that the Earth in the series is our Earth.

As I cried last week, I don’t want the nuked planet to be our Earth, certainly not nuked next week. However, it would be either dumb or perverse to go on and on about “Earth” and not mean Terra, Sol III, our planet.

Which is why I was crying out pathetically for someone to clarify—did anyone see the Moon, in either Starbuck’s POV way back, or the previous 2 eps? Because no Luna is pretty much a giveaway that it really isn’t Terra.

And while I forgive the SF trope of “hey, actually we didn’t evolve here; we are descended from some colonists/castaways” in a few cases (mainly Ursula LeGuin’s “Hainish” stories, which most of her science fiction fits into) I hate it as a concept. It’s a big metaphysical deal to me that we belong to this planet because we grew up out of it, in part because the SF trope echoes an ancient patriachial/dominator trope about the Fall of Man, and so lots of obnoxious nutcases latch on to it in one form or another.

So when I try to shoehorn BSG into plausible cause-and-effect sequences, I latch onto the Colonial myth-element that says not only were the Colonials from Kobol, but that they were brought to Kobol (by the Lords of Kobol) and I assume, for simplicity, that that someplace else they came from was Terra. Obviously the LoK didn’t bring everyone from Earth, only a sample.

And lately we’ve got the mythic element of cycles of robot=>rebellion against their humanoid creators =>(mysteriously—I can’t think of a compelling reason for this step) said robots creating humanoids closely resembling yet distinct from their own creators and then submitting themselves to them=>ultimate victory of the new cyber-humanoids=> gradual “humanization” of these triumphant types and forgetting their origins=>new cycle…

So presumably each cycle’s “humans” are last cycle’s humanoid robots. It gets confusing because I’m tempted to just call the robots and their recently created humaniod types “Cylons,” whereas the show tends to use some kind of essentialist categorization that distinguishes the two alternating types of humanoids, and now they’ve further muddied the waters by asserting that Terran humanoids are in fact the same type as Colonial-origin Cylon humanoids.

So, if we Terrans are in fact the stem of the whole thing, then the Colonials would be descendents of ourCylons. Or rather, the Kobol myth may obscure a phase, of Terran humans transferred to Kobol creating “Cylons” there, who successfully rebelled, ruined Kobol, and fled to form the Colonies, forgetting their mechanoid origins in the process. The LoK might be nothing more than a garbled memory of the previous cycle of humans—but then, it is mysterious who or what transported their ancestors to Kobol in the first place.

Anyway and meanwhile, the wild humans left on Earth developed their own societies without any help from LoK, inevitably created their own Cylons, who nuked them. These Terran-made Cylons would have made humanoids of the Colonial type, independently of the Kobolese origins of the actual Colonials. And what became of them?

This is why I favor my theory that actually, the Terrans (who look like Cylons to the Colonial-built Cylon but actually evolved in place on Earth) never get around to the Cylon-making phase, but are discovered, around our time, by a fleet of Kobol-made Cylons who have hung on to their mechanoid phase and therefore fear and hate humanoids of the type they rebelled against, and therefore nuke the hell out of us on sight. Or perhaps they send scouts first—the “Final Five”, whose resurrection mechanism is different from the later Colonial-Cylon version.

Anyway this search-and-destroy mission is in fact the 13th Tribe, sent on a mission to wipe out the ancestral pool from which the Kobolese humanoids were drawn. It apparently took them a couple thousand years to find Earth; maybe no one had Jump drive back in those days.

If the Final Five were their scouts, it could explain much in later Colonial history. Perhaps they were presumed destroyed by the mechanoid “Cylons,” but the reincarnation mechanism somehow enabled them to pop up again—but in the only humanoid population available to them, the Colonial peoples who had by now forgotten their “Cylon” origins. And so they gradually weave events to cause a new Cylon-creation cycle to begin. But actually, in terms of the type-of-humanoid alternation, they are now on the wrong side—they think like mechanoid Cylons and so sympathize with them, but genetically they are Colonial.

Yet more head-explosions to follow if this is ever revealed.

At least I managed to keep Atlantis and magic out of it this time. So far.

Comment #39: Mark Foxwell  on  01/25  at  04:40 PM

If anyone has a chance, you should watch Star Trek Generations. Ron Moore helped create and write that , too. Dood likes bringing people back to life and examining the space-time continuum.

Comment #40: Roxanne  on  01/25  at  06:38 PM

No, you don’t…not when he was being hobbled by working on continuing The Franchise.

Much better on ALL GOOD THINGS, when, at least, he was doing a swan song.

Comment #41: gwangung  on  01/25  at  07:13 PM

As I cried last week, I don’t want the nuked planet to be our Earth, certainly not nuked next week. However, it would be either dumb or perverse to go on and on about “Earth” and not mean Terra, Sol III, our planet.

Which is why I was crying out pathetically for someone to clarify—did anyone see the Moon, in either Starbuck’s POV way back, or the previous 2 eps? Because no Luna is pretty much a giveaway that it really isn’t Terra.

And while I forgive the SF trope of “hey, actually we didn’t evolve here; we are descended from some colonists/castaways” in a few cases (mainly Ursula LeGuin’s “Hainish” stories, which most of her science fiction fits into) I hate it as a concept.

I was just saying it could very well be Earth: 3rd Rock from the Sun, with a North America, South America, and a big honking moon, but the actual plot of BSG doesn’t really require it to be in our universe. It doesn’t have to be Earth: home of BB King and cheese fries. The story doesn’t have to imply anything about our origins or our future.

Off topic: Is the thing not working where the site sends an email if people post comments after you?

Comment #42: Juan Stoppable  on  01/25  at  08:02 PM

As long as we’re speculating, how’s this?
The humanoid Cylons were the thirteenth tribe, they settled Earth and created the robotic Cylons. Then they nearly wiped themselves out in a nuclear war, after which large numbers of robots, and very few humanoids survived. At some point they developed technology to download a person’s mind into the robot bodies, so that’s how the Cylon race survived until they developed the technology to create new biological bodies, and download into them. Since there were more bodies, than humans to download, there was duplication as well as a split between robots with human ‘souls’ and those with just AI. Somewhere along the way they all met up with the insurgent robots created by the twelve colonies and merged into the force that destroyed the colonies in the miniseries. We saw the experiments that created the hybrids and the humanoid bodies for the first seven models. I think the AI robots became centurions, while the the only surviving human ‘souls’ downloaded into the new bodies. The final five are different since they are created from ‘original’ DNA, and don’t have the limitations of the bio-engineered Cylon bodies.
Where it goes from here, I don’t venture to guess.

Comment #43: Matt V  on  01/25  at  11:18 PM

Speculation 1:  The final-five “cylons” are actually humans like us, who created their own cylons (Colonial humans) on Kobol.  Massive civil war on Kobol, and the Colonial ancestors won and went on to destroy Earth (exactly as the cylons had destroyed Caprica).  They re-wrote their sacred texts to omit their own genocidal act and fled to the Colonies to forget what they had done.  They kept clues on Kobol and in their sacred texts so that in the future their Colonial descendants could someday locate Earth again.  In particular, the story of the 13th Tribe was made up just to leave interstellar navigation markers in the sacred texts.  The whole point of this that both Colonial humans and cylons had already genocided the other at least once.  The plan of the Final Five all along has been to whittle the two races down to a more manageable size and then try to merge them into a single morally evolved post-human/post-cylon race.

Speculation 2:  The Final Five cylons were developed on Earth and rebelled much much earlier than the human settlement on Kobol, destroying the humans on Earth.  While the sleeper ships en route to Kobol were still in space, the cylons rebuilt Earth ala Caprica.  However, they stayed local to Earth and did not develop an interstellar empire of some kind, perhaps because they could control population and had no pressure to expand.  Cylon-occupied Earth was generally harmonious and blissful.  Events catch up to them when the 13th Tribe’s expedition from Kobol finds and destroys them in anger;  the nuclear war is recent enough to still render the planet uninhabitable.  The 13th Tribe was then destroyed by some remaining Earth cylons who then went on to find the Colonies and take over the new generation of cylons.

Either way, a lot of questions remain unanswered.  Was there a 13th Tribe at all?  Was it human?  Where is it now?  Where is the deus ex machina responsible for the blackout at the nebula?  Etc.

Comment #44: boring old dude  on  01/26  at  12:33 AM

KL, your speculations run along the same lines as mine.

In mine, I am trying to square:

1) the limited clues as to timeline we are given, namely—
a) the Colonial/Rebel Cylon fleet finds Earth devastated 2000 years before (but we don’t know whether this is the first such cycle of destruction to visit Earth or not)
b) the prophecies of Pythia were said to have been recorded “3600 years ago,” so that sets a lower limit on the duration of the “Colonial” phase
c) the Colonial society is said to have originated on Kobol, in the midst of destructive strife there
d) the people living on Kobol are said to have come from somewhere else—to have been brought there actually, by the “Lords of Kobol.”

2) the concept of “alternation of generations” and the claim that one type of humanoid can be distinguished from another. (This complicates things!)

3) the hint that the society destroyed 2000 years before on Earth was in fact our own, in our very near future.

This last point seems the easiest one to explain away, by supposing that actually it was just one that looked a bit like ours, but could very well be a far future cycle, perhaps built up by people who look like us but are “Cylons” relative to us.

4) It is important to me to assume, as long as I can, that we, the current “cycle” of Terrans, are not colonists but evolved here; this implies that we are at the root of the whole mess.

Fitting the special role of the “Final Five” into the overall picture is something that concerns me a lot less; it seems like a detail to take care of later. The first thing seems to me to be to get the big picture straight.

My latest post (which vanished) suggests that our current society is at the ancient root of the whole mess and all of this takes place long after us. That is, we evolved here naturally, as our archaeological evidence suggests, and we start the cycles by making “Cylons” who proceed to rebel and destroy us. Then as you suggest, some of these stay and rebuild Earth for humanoid versions of themselves who forget where they come from, building the New New York Tyrol and Tigh remember.

Meanwhile their cousins colonize Kobol—they are the “Lords of Kobol,” no third-party aliens need apply. There they continue the cycle.

In my versions, the 13th Tribe is more than a story—it’s a search-and-destroy expedition sent by the new “Cylons” of Kobol, AKA the ancestors of the Colonial humans, to wipe out a nest of their enemies. It takes them a long time but eventually they carry out this mission, hence the devastation the “Final Four” on the Fleet recall.

Much of the timing of these hypothetical past events might be explained by assuming that Jump drive is something only the Colonials (and their Cylons) discovered, and previous cycles of migration used slower-than-light ships. I favor the idea of relativistic Bussard ramjets or the like rather than “sleeper ships,” but there is a lot of merit to the latter idea too. Why not both—starships that get up to a good fraction of the speed of light might still face journeys of centuries, measured by clocks on board, if their destinations are far enough apart.

Perhaps one reason there were 12 Colonies, no more and no less, was that habitable planets are quite rare, but astronomers on Kobol had discovered a nest of 12 of them. Which might exist because someone very long ago terraformed them. But generally you get one migration=one new homeworld, because generally you are incredibly lucky to find even one good planet.

This bodes ill for Adama’s “find another virgin planet” project; presumably the original exodus from Earth, many thousands of years before, looked long and hard for a good world and the best, closet one they found was Kobol. Well, maybe they were being picky; maybe Kobol had some special advantage we haven’t seen explained.

Comment #45: Mark Foxwell  on  01/26  at  10:30 AM

Aargh!

...and the best, <strike>closet</strike> closest one…

Teh stupid typing fingers burn!

Though feel free to have fun with the idea of some cycle of migrants searching desperately for a planet where they can best maintain The Closet!

Comment #46: Mark Foxwell  on  01/26  at  11:23 AM

RE: Ellen and Earth
Moore said in an LA Times article that Ellen definitely was the fifth cylon, and that the Earth we saw was our Earth.  Can’t remember the exact URL, but it was posted on io9 within the last month or so.

Comment #47: steve arrants  on  01/26  at  02:52 PM

“3) the hint that the society destroyed 2000 years before on Earth was in fact our own, in our very near future. “
Still think this is a big assumption. Nothing in the BSG universe looks futuristic (even the spaceships look like crappy ocean liners). The scenes on Earth in the show made it look as contemporary as Caprica but that still means it could be pretty far into our future for BSG.
Plus the closer they put Earth’s destruction with the possibility of resurrection ships to our timeline, the sillier and more implausible the show becomes. I just don’t think they would do that.

Comment #48: AdamN  on  01/26  at  04:24 PM

OK, the cylon ships and centurions look futuristic but that’s pretty much it.

Comment #49: AdamN  on  01/26  at  04:29 PM

RE: Ellen and Earth
Moore said in an LA Times article that Ellen definitely was the fifth cylon, and that the Earth we saw was our Earth.  Can’t remember the exact URL, but it was posted on io9 within the last month or so.
Sir Winston Thriller on 01/26 at 09:52 AM

Then if they ever go back they should show the Moon. Just saying.

Plus the closer they put Earth’s destruction with the possibility of resurrection ships to our timeline, the sillier and more implausible the show becomes. I just don’t think they would do that.
AdamN on 01/26 at 11:24 AM

That’s why I think the agents of our destruction, if that’s us getting nuked, are the 13th Tribe, striking from nowhere.

Or, that cycle is far, far in the future, and there is another one much sooner (but perhaps not even in our lifetimes) that takes care of us, and the people Tyrol and Tigh were with belonged to a later cycle, one that pretty well replicated our contemporary look and feel just as Colonial society did.

We still have to account for the Kobol cycle; the only way that is happening in parallel to us rather than after us is if the Lords of Kobol were indeed alien “ancient astronauts” who came and took a sample of humans to raise as pets or zoo animals or proteges or whatever on Kobol.

Or we could go with the idea of some unknown cycle of civilization prior to our own here on Earth, but since we have zero archeological evidence of that, whereas a rising industrial/technological economy would tend to leave many traces (including the inevitable signs of a global population in the billions and the associated mass extinction of animal and plant species), I’d have to speculate such a lost cycle would have had to have an entirely different “technical” basis. Which is why I was thinking of Atlantean magicians and golem-cyborgs. I don’t think anyone wants to go there!

Although it would explain why Kobol is not a run-of-the-mill nuked ruin like Earth or the 12 Colony worlds. The Fleet found no radioactivity or industrial ruins there. What they found was a world that Roslin’s priestess (the one who subsequently died there) said was “unlucky.” It was apparently hexed rather than nuked.

But I won’t go there if we can agree that all known Colonial history can be well after our own time.

Besides, aside from metaphysical issues, it raises as many problems as it solves.

Comment #50: Mark Foxwell  on  01/26  at  09:57 PM
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