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Next entry: Alas Previous entry: Happy 4th of July!

Because of The Implication

FeminismSexSkepticism

There's no small amount of irony in the fact that I published this article about how the atheist movement dovetails with other social justice movements this particular week.  I was actually feeling pretty good about the whole thing, because I was writing it while traveling to CONvergence to speak at the invitation of Skepchick about the feminist depths of this issue, on a panel called "Women vs. God", where we discussed fighting the religious right.  Talking about my commitment to feminism through an atheist angle always pleases me, since the two are firmly intertwined in my mind---religion and patriarchy are so intertwined as to be functionally the same thing in most ways, especially in the context of history.  Pulilng down one means pulling down the other, and I think it's naive when anyone denies that and instead claims that there's a way to preserve religion without patriarchy or vice versa.  I'm thinking long term here; obviously in the short term there are religious feminists and sexist atheists. 

In fact, what makes all this ironic is I did get an eyeful this weekend of how serious the problem of sexism in the atheist/skeptical movement really is, and how much hard work needs to be done to get a male-dominated movement to take the problem of sexual harassment and female alienation seriously.  (Though by and large claims for reproductive rights go unchallenged; there are a few loud-mouths whose virulent sexism will cause them to take anti-choice nonsense seriously, but it's so steeped in religious woo that most atheists can't be bothered.)  Because right as I was traveling, conferencing, and writing about atheism, there was a blow-up that started because a guy exploited his position as a fellow atheist/skeptic to act like a creep towards a movement leader who happens to be female.  The controversy---and this is truly pathetic---is because she decided instead of just rolling over and taking it, she would say something about it. I know!  The bitch.

I don't want to recount everything that happened in depth, because it's really done better elsewhere, but what happened was this: Rebecca Watson, who travels extensively speaking about skepticism and atheism, was at a conference in Ireland and a guy followed her onto an elevator at 4AM and cold propositioned her for sex in this enclosed space without ever speaking to her before.  She mentioned it in a vlog that was mostly about other stuff, mainly to illustrate why this behavior is unacceptable and can turn women off from participating in events such as the conference.

The usual excuse-making for the guy immediately proceeded.  I'm sure you guys could generate all the excuses on your own: Claiming that men don't really know what's appropriate and what's not because women make it so complicated.  (This has been demonstrated untrue with research, though common sense should also apply.)  Denying the difference between flirting and cornering women in hopes that the implication of fear will grease the wheels for you getting your dick wet.  Claiming that introducing a whiff of coercion and fear into a situation is okay as long as you're willing to take no for an answer at the end of the day.  All of which reminds me of one of the great scenes from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia".  

In sum, men who corner women know what they're doing. And yes, they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid.  Rebecca may not have  put it that way, but being a mean ol' feminist bitch, I'm happy to say it.  Also: duh.  It also strikes me, in my dealing with geek culture, that there's a taboo against rejecting someone, and creepy dudes also are happy to exploit that, knowing that women who reject them will be condemned for violating the "don't be judgmental" rule. 

And I also know, being a feminist for many years now, that whenever a bunch of dudes start freaking out on a woman who called out some egregious sexism, there are a bunch of women willing to back those dudes up in order to get that coveted male approval and attention.  I call this move Pulling An Althouse.  Or Dr. Helen, if you prefer.  Or maybe just call them Sister Punishers.  And they were thick on the ground in this case, and Rebecca used a quote from one of her female attackers in a speech where she was talking about there's sexism in the atheist movement (as a prelude to the more obvious fact that there's sexism in religion).  You can read the whole story here. Rebecca sounds like she was much nicer about it than I was; I'm prone to making jokes such as, "The guys you attract with this crap don't go down, so I don't know why you bother."  It does make you look desperate, ladies.  I'm just saying.  

Anyway, this launched Round Two of Silence the Feminist.  This time, the theme was, "Sure, you may be right that this dude was a creep but shut up, since you're making people uncomfortable and can't we get back to talking about how religious people are sexists?"  This was greased by a political strategy known as Calvinball---one that the right is really good at, by the way---where you make up brand new rules of discourse that were previously unknown and then chastise the target for breaking the rule that didn't exist before because you just made it up.  In this particular case, Rebecca broke the previously unknown rule wherein you can't actually quote someone's public words and the name they publish under when disagreeing with them, at least if your blog has more traffic than theirs does.  It may also be true that there are exceptions on every other Sunday, but I'm not sure. 

Here is a classic example, from the usually rational Hemant Mehta, of this Calvinball argument:

This was bad form for two reasons. One, it was a distraction from an otherwise important talk. Instead of us discussing the incredibly important issue of how the Religious Right harms women (the subject of the talk), we’re all discussing whether it’s right for someone with a big megaphone to pick on someone with a smaller one, whether someone was being a “bad feminist,” and all sorts of shit that doesn’t need to be aired in public.

Two, whether it was the intention or not, you’ve convinced a young female in our movement that if she says something you don’t like, she better be ready for an all-out barrage of criticism from every “big name” in the atheist blogosphere.

It has it all: 1) Countering criticism that makes you uncomfortable by saying there's something more important to worry about 2) Shaming a woman for having success  3) Sexist paternalism in the form of arguing that a woman has to be shielded from open discourse lest she be too frightened to return and 4) Implying that said paternalism is feminism.  Sarah Palin's P.R. team would be proud. 

Personally, I think that convincing an audience of atheists that the religious right sucks is probably much less of a challenge than convincing them to look at themselves and find imperfections, and I applaud Rebecca for being willing to take the hard road. 

That's the bad news.  The good news is that people in the movement are fighting back against this tedious and predictable sexism,  and they're fighting hard.  PZ Myers, as usual, is on the side of the angels.  So is Jennifer McCreight. Sadly, Richard Dawkins was a dick about all this. 

To sum up a long story, what is fascinating to me about all this is that it's something that tends to happen over and over again, and while it sucks at the time, it tends to pay off over the long run.  Many of the attackers, especially the ones pulling the "you're right but shut up" card, may resist now, but they absorb and learn and often adjust their attitudes, a little at a time.  Now that the issue has been raised, it's hard to ignore it in the future.  More attempts to make things female-friendly usually come out of this.  But it is fascinating how these things have a predictable rhythm to them. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:10 AM • (528) Comments

Correct!

In the academy, where I live, feminists are tolerated when they repeat the same old bromides or findings.  Like, say, abortion rights are necessary.  But when they point out some other bit of gender oppression, a “stone her!” mob amasses.  Fragile liberal dudes: they can bear only so much unfamiliarity and they let you know, with support from their female allies.

Comment #1: Unree  on  07/05  at  10:23 AM

Not Hemant! I like him a lot, and I didn’t know about his take on this until I read this post. I was disappointed enough by Dawkins being a dick about this. Sometimes it seems hard to find good feminist men, even in the skeptical/atheist community. And one of the reasons it’s hard is because skeptical/atheist men are often convinced that they don’t need to examine their own views on gender, because, hey, they’re already the good guys, right? PZ seems to be one of the few reliable ones, for which I love him.

All the guys who are accusing feminists of criticizing the guy just for wanting to get laid are pissing me off. There’s nothing wrong with asking another person if they want to have sex, but there are places where it’s very inconsiderate to do so - and an elevator is one of them (unless they already know and trust you). If you can’t find any other opportunity to ask them, too fucking bad. You’re not entitled to have sex with any given person of your choosing.

Comment #2: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  10:32 AM

Atheists are very concerned with the arbitrary tribal-ness of the religious. I can call myself a Christian, so I identify as a member of the Christian tribe, which contains various sub-markers that I can snipe at other members of the Christian tribe, or I can unite with my other big-picture-Christian-Tribalists to go after the Muslim-Tribalists, or the Hindu-Tribalists, or whatever.

The point of course being that tribalism is bad, that it’s the grandpappy of racism and wars and all sorts of bad shit that impedes the progress of humanity.

And yet the most egregious shit in the history of us has been the shit pulled by the male tribe as a means of staying on top. Seeing how it responds to even a perceived threat is so primitive and predictable.

Comment #3: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/05  at  10:35 AM

I like him a lot, too.  I think the problem here is that the usual platitudes about how men are dim and their misbehavior can be excused on the basis of ignorance have really gripped a lot of well-meaning men.  If you haven’t actually been cornered by men, it’s hard to imagine how fucked up it can be.  But PZ has outlined the strategy that I think applies best here: listen to women and believe them.  If you choose that over trying to imagine being the guy in question, it’s much more clarifying.  Probably because you’re *not* like the guy in question and *don’t* understand why you would corner a woman in an elevator, even if it was just a mild cornering.

It’s all good.  They’re squirming now, but lessons will be learned.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  10:37 AM

@1

I’ve said it before (although possibly not here…), but privileged dudes have a very strong tendency to hijack progressive movements and try to prevent them from straying outside their comfort zones. They get to feel forward-thinking and liberal, but without too much challenge to their privilege!

Blech.

Comment #5: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  10:37 AM

As someone in a geeky social circle with questionably socially literate male friends, I’ve been exposed repeatedly to the idea that something like being invited back to some dude’s room for coffee whilst in an elevator alone in a foreign country at 4am is nothing to be offended at and really it’s just bitches being crazy and unfair that makes people think that it’s a bad thing at all. “He didn’t proposition her for sex, he just wanted to have coffee! And talk! That’s it! Is there a better way to ask for that?”

And yet: these guys are the first to line up and say “wow, that girl should totally have known better than to get herself into that situation if she didn’t want to have sex. That’s just like… asking for it.” without seeing the irony at all.

So as a PSA to all of you privileged men who don’t see what’s wrong with this: if you’re going to put the entire burden of rape prevention on women, you do not ever get to act offended when a woman interprets something you say or do as being threatening. Nothing. Ever. Because she’s acting in exactly the way that the culture you perpetuate has trained her to act.

Comment #6: Hobbes  on  07/05  at  10:39 AM

Can we add 5) projection?

Because when I read that last sentence, I thought it pretty precisely described what Mehta was trying to do.

Comment #7: paul  on  07/05  at  10:42 AM

Next time, make it a light, refreshing Fresca, the sparkling beverage of anti-patriarchy.

Comment #8: norbizness  on  07/05  at  10:47 AM

If a man can’t see the predatory overtones of soliciting a woman he doesn’t know in a tiny moving room with no windows at 4 AM, he’s got bigger issues with women than just getting his rocks off.

Comment #9: Secret Agent Norman  on  07/05  at  10:51 AM

What aggravates me the most about the entire situation is the fact that it perfectly illustrates the double bind that women find themselves in, and it seems like so many progressive men are refusing to even acknowledge it!  If we’re intimidated by the guy in the elevator that means we’re unfairly painting every man as a rapist and oppressing their natural need for sex.  If we trust the guy in the elevator and he ends up raping us, then that’s our fault because we didn’t use our “common sense” to know in advance that he was a Bad Guy.  If we’re intimidated by the offer for coffee we’re psycho bitches, but if we trust the offer for “coffee” and get assaulted then we’re just stupid because obviously coffee means sex.  No matter what we do in the situation, we’re wrong.

Comment #10: Blitzgal  on  07/05  at  10:52 AM

I have one quibble here, and it’s with the notion that any criticism of Rebecca’s remarks during her keynote are “Calvinball” strategies.

Do we really have to lay out all possible transgressions beforehand if we are to criticize people who violate them? If Rebecca had said instead about Stef, “Well, she would say that, because she’s a whore who likes being propositioned in elevators”, do we still forfeit our right to criticize her for it because we didn’t have that rule written down somewhere first? Can’t the idiot in the elevator get away with the same (bad) logic (“don’t criticize me, no one told me I wasn’t allowed to be a sleazeball on an elevator at 4:00 AM”)?

There are a lot of people out there saying that the guy in the elevator didn’t do anything wrong, and I think most people agree that that’s not accurate. I understand that there are too many who do think that it’s fine, and I can sympathize with the frustration of dealing with that in ways that I don’t have to.

But there are also a lot of people out there who aren’t defending this guy, but who are also saying that when you’re a keynote speaker, you are in a position of power. Most of the audience won’t know the context of your remarks. They’ll just know that you called someone a sexist. Rebecca wasn’t wrong because she “picked on the little guy” or “named names”. She was wrong because she chose a context to do so that guaranteed that only one side of the issue could be heard.

Any man needs to know without being explicitly told what is and is not acceptable behavior. That shouldn’t be a controversial position. But Rebecca needs to be held to the same standard, and in the views of many people, she hasn’t been. The fact that there’s so much disagreement over these issues even in the community means that there’s more nuance there than either side seems to want to admit. We’re not all “rape-apologists” and “feminazis”. But we’re not having discussions that have any chance of anyone learning anything. We’ve just divided up teams and started shouting at each other. And my criticism of Rebecca is that I think she set much of that process in motion by choosing an inappropriate way to start the conversation by attacking someone in a venue that guaranteed that the person and anyone who thought like her would feel attacked and defensive.

Comment #11: jdg30  on  07/05  at  11:01 AM

Bitzgal @10

“No matter what we do in the situation, we’re wrong.”

That’s a feature, not a bug.

Comment #12: Nutella  on  07/05  at  11:02 AM

jdg30 @11

“And my criticism of Rebecca is that I think she set much of that process in motion by choosing an inappropriate way to start the conversation by attacking someone in a venue that guaranteed that the person and anyone who thought like her would feel attacked and defensive.”

Wow, good example of Calvinball there!  You’ve got the sequence wrong:  Rebecca didn’t start (or ‘set in motion’) this controversy by publicly criticizing the person who publicly criticized her.  Her criticism of Elevator Guy was what started it all and the complaints about her later keynote are being used to weaken her original point.

Comment #13: Nutella  on  07/05  at  11:07 AM

I swear, the Geek Social Fallacies and the “Science Says That Men DEFINITELY Understand Indirect Refusals” posts are some of the most useful things on the Internet.

Also, I get so tired of the Defenders of the Clueless.  What’s worse?  Actually making an actual lady feel creeped out and unsafe vs. The lady not racking her entire brain for theoretical reasons that he might be acting that way and automatically pre-forgiving him, and through him (the guy who actually made her feel unsafe), pre-forgiving all of the nerdy and rejected dudes in the world?  “It’s probably not his fault he’s making me so uncomfortable, there is probably a reason in his childhood that makes him that way” vs. “Get me the fuck out of this elevator!”  I am continually amazed at how otherwise smart people will advocate for considering the feelings of the person who is creeping you out over your own safety, out loud and publicly, in writing.  It’s embarrassing.

And then when the lady who was cornered in the elevator is like “Hey, don’t corner people in elevators, even if you mean well it gives the wrong idea?” everyone jumps down her throat.  But then I’m like, okay, Socially Clueless Dudes and Defenders of the Clueless, by speaking up about this in actually a pretty nice, polite way the women in your social group are educating you about how you should not corner them in elevators anymore, so now you can’t claim not to know anymore - they just told you “Don’t do that.”  So if you’re whining at that point, it’s because you enjoy the plausible deniability shield that your pretend cluelessness gives you.  Gross. 

Social cluelessness wears thin after a certain age, is what I’m saying.

Comment #14: CaptainAwkward  on  07/05  at  11:09 AM

I’ve seen Dawkins cluelessly exhibit toxic levels of privilege on gender matters before, but this time really takes the fucking biscuit. I don’t care how right he may be on the subject of religion, he’s now joined Christopher Hitchens in my “atheists, but arseholes” file… He just doesn’t get it, and shows no inclination to seriously try to.

Comment #15: Dunc  on  07/05  at  11:10 AM

“If you choose that over trying to imagine being the guy in question, it’s much more clarifying.”

I don’t understand why men take this route. They should be trying to imagine being the woman in question, not the man. This is true from every angle: Looking at it form the point of view of attracting women to the atheist movement, you should imagine being the woman. Looking at it from the point of view of a man trying to get laid, you should imagine being the woman. There is no time in this situation where it is beneficial to imagine being the man. The fact that so many men are approaching this from the wrong direction shows they don’t actually think of women as full human beings worthy of their empathy.

Before someone jumps my shit over that last sentence, I will add this: I don’t think they are doing it on purpose or making the decision to be mean to women blah blah blah. The behavior seems normal to them; it is ingrained. But so what? That’s what patriarchy is. You don’t have to do it on purpose for it to be sexist.

Comment #16: Charlie Kilian  on  07/05  at  11:12 AM

jdg, it’s totally Calvinball to introduce the idea after the fact that some people who publish have special privileges not to be quoted and named.

Agreed, luke.  Women should just stay the fuck away from atheism, and it should be an irrelevant group of men proving that there’s no god over and over and then complaining at the bar that no women want to join them.  That’s fucking effective.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  11:21 AM

I’m with RD on this.  Here’s my take:

http://thetimchannel.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/skepchick-blues/

No need to tar and feather the entire atheist male contingent when she could have just told the guy to fuck off, but hey, what do I know?

The bigger issue to me is that if a woman feels unsafe in any environment then she should take it upon herself to be prepared to defend herself.

You can’t have this “I’m a strong female and can take of myself” attitude, and then flip and whine when you realize that perhaps you can’t.  It hinders your message.

Enjoy.

Enjoy.

Comment #18: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  11:23 AM

@jdg30 Here’s a Calvinball:  If you proposition the keynote speaker for sex in an elevator at 4am, you and your proposition may be part of the next day’s talk. Furthermore, if you defend the propositioner, you and your defense may be part of the next day’s talk.  The person with the bullhorn is going to talk through the bullhorn.

Unrelated: I saw Hemant’s blog post and had the same reaction. Not Hemant!  If you are a man and your initial reaction to the elevator situation is on the side of the propositioner, or your initial reaction to the the propositionee’s public reaction to the situation is negative, you really need to spend some more time understanding your potential bias.  That should be a rule for anyone in the majority/priveledged side of a situation that is reacting against the non-priveledged side, whether it be gender, age, race, sexual-preference, etc.

Comment #19: JNevill  on  07/05  at  11:26 AM

@Nutella

All I can say is that those aren’t *my* criticisms. I saw nothing wrong with her video criticizing the guy on the elevator. She was right. But I don’t think Stef’s response to that could have been an opportunity to have an amicable and nuanced discussion about the issue. That isn’t going to happen when one party has a microphone, a podium, and complete control of the environment. Do you want to be a persecuted minority or do you want to win? If you want to win, and people like Stef and Hemant are so radical that you feel you can’t talk to them except via one-sided attacks, then you’re completely screwed.

I’ll repeat myself again though. I have no problem with what Rebecca said. It should have been said elsewhere though. Sexual harassment is about power, and no one should be able to tell a victim of it how they should feel. But a keynote speaker at a conference is in a position of power too, and when Stef said she was uncomfortable with the way she was addressed, the unilateral response has been, “Here’s why you’re wrong to feel that way. Now shut up.”

Comment #20: jdg30  on  07/05  at  11:27 AM

why would the atheist/skeptical conference members not have a right to be offended when she tried to hijack the conference by making a big public spectacle of her own personal issues, and pushing her feminist agenda on everyone ?

Possibly because that’s not, in fact, what she did.

Comment #21: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  11:28 AM

I don’t think Hemant’s being paternalistic, or shaming Rebecca Watson for her success. His bias is towards maintaining the peace. In order to do that, he needed to argue that “both sides have good points.” Centrists do this all the time.

I’ve made the [oint, along with other Friendly Atheist commenters, that this an argument is worth having. But I’m not angry with Hemant the way I’m angry at the genuine sexists in this debate. I think the keep-the-peace attitude is a useful one in most situations.

Comment #22: zyxek  on  07/05  at  11:30 AM

Edit of myself at #21…should be “I *do* think Stef’s response…”

@Amanda,

I never said that Rebecca shouldn’t name names. What I’d really love to have seen is Rebecca speak privately to Stef, or at least to have the conversation on roughly neutral ground. How much better could this have turned out if Stef and Rebecca had made joint posts on Skepchick about this very real problem? Worse case is that Stef digs her heels in and continues to be wrong. The approach Rebecca took simply guaranteed that would be the case.

Comment #23: jdg30  on  07/05  at  11:33 AM

No, jdg30, that’s some grade A bullshit. You don’t feel comfortable with your criticism being aired publicly? Tough fucking shit. That’s how a movement based on open discussion works. It’s not an abuse of power - that’s absurd. What the fuck, under these bullshit rules, are speakers at conferences on skepticism and atheism supposed to talk about? How much they like rainbows? If you make a criticism and put it in public, that makes you absolutely fair game for criticism, because that’s how the adult world works. Abuse of power, my ass. I have no sympathy for Stef’s being “uncomfortable” with being publicly criticized.

Comment #24: grolby  on  07/05  at  11:33 AM

Re: Charlie @ 16

I’m not jumping down your anything, because I think you may actually be more right than wrong, but I hold some faint hope that the gap of understanding requires a somewhat shorter bridge. My male privilege has tended to manifest itself in a robust sense of my own objectivity and rightness. For the longest time, I assumed that my experience of the world was essentially the experience of the world, at least in respect of issues and events that I didn’t flag as obviously controversial. It didn’t even occur to me that other people might experience relatively ordinary events—being in an elevator, for example—so differently from me. I think a lot of people are more like that than anything. It doesn’t even occur to them that someone else might have a totally different and equally valid take on the situation.

Comment #25: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  11:34 AM

Richard Dawkins was a complete and total dick about this.  3000 posts, and he’s still whining that creepy elevator guy did NOTHING wrong, and if you weirdly and wrongly think there was something untoward in simply asking someone out in an elevator, could you please try to explain that strange POV without using the word “fuck”?

Again, never mind the 3000 previous posts, at least half of which explained in detail what was wrong, with analogies and links.  Richard Dawkins is a very special and important troll, and when he uses common and well-noted distraction attempts it is not a lame argument, because…because…well, because he is Richard Dawkins!  Noted Atheist!  A Very Important Man who has explained that Muslim women have it worse, and Rebecca really overreacted, and how could anyone ever feel threated in an ELEVATOR?!  It can only be explained by the fact women are silly creatures who don’t really know what they feel, how they experience the world, or how to construct a logical argument.

It’s so fucking depressing, because here’s one thing that doesn’t get a lot of play: had she agreed to go to his room for coffee, literally and naively believing him, and he raped her THERE IS NOT A PROSECUTOR IN THE COUNTRY THAT WOULD TAKE THE CASE. 

She went to a strange man’s hotel room at 4AM.  Even with an all female jury, you’d get at least one, if not several who would insist that she should have known better.  What did she expect?

Going to a strange man’s room at 4AM is giving him license to rape you.  Unless he murdered her or beat her badly as well, conventional wisdom is that no jury will convict him, so no prosecutor is going to push the case.  Going to his room at 4AM of her own free will DESTROYS any credibility as a victim, because then it’s he said/she said, regardless of a rape kit’s evidence, and the he saids win.

————————
Here’s the other thing that pisses me off so much:  Take rape away entirely.  Rebecca was on a panel discussing feminism, i.e., treating women like human beings.  She continued the discussion with people in the bar until thoroughly tired at 4 AM, when she announced she was going to bed.  Creepy Elevator Guy, who never spoke to her at all, follows her and corners her in the elevator and propositions her—starting by acknowledging his question wasn’t appropriate.

Her discussion was about respecting women’s opinions.  His “pick up line” was “I want to hear more about your philosophy, whatever it was, because I wasn’t listening to you then and I’m not really listening now.  I know you said you were tired, but I’d like to fuck, so since that’s pretty much all women are good for, maybe you’d like to do me before going back to your own room?”

He was RUDE.  He knew he was rude going into the proposition, but he did it anyway because…MALE. 

Now add back the possibility of rape and the impossibility of legal repercussions if she willingly goes to a strange man’s room at 4AM, something too many of these men refuse to acknowledge because they never think about it.  They never think about it, so it’s silly for ANYONE to think about it.  And anyone who does think about it is just paranoid or a man-hater and should be ridiculed.

The concept of listening to women as if they were men, respecting what they say as if they were men, and treating them as true equals is so far beyond these supposed rational skeptics that it just makes me want to vomit.

Comment #26: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  11:35 AM

You can’t have this “I’m a strong female and can take of myself” attitude, and then flip and whine when you realize that perhaps you can’t.  It hinders your message.

So in your privilege-addled mind, as soon as a woman becomes a feminist, she no longer has a right to complain about being sexually harassed. Because she should have… kicked his ass, I guess? I don’t know. Your whole position is pretty incoherent.

Comment #27: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  11:37 AM

If you choose that over trying to imagine being the guy in question, it’s much more clarifying.  Probably because you’re *not* like the guy in question and *don’t* understand why you would corner a woman in an elevator, even if it was just a mild cornering.

Something like this - if a situation is presented as gendered, people automatically empathise with their gender end unless they’re really careful about it (and it’s hard not to).  Whatever the moral implications are, reminding people that they’re doing this is a productive thing. 

That I’ve always felt presumptuous, imposing, self-centred, and boorish by expressing interest in anyone probably guides me that way, too.

Comment #28: Brian  on  07/05  at  11:39 AM

I wanted to pass around the useful suggestion to my fellow guys - “You’ll get more action if you don’t act like a creep”, but now I’m wondering if this guy really did want sex. Speaking as a former insecure adolescent, I’ve asked girls out in the past when I knew I didn’t have a chance so I could go back to my comfortable D&D game and not feel like a total loser who was afraid to ask out girls.
I’m wondering if elevator guy deliberately pessimized his chances by turning the creep dial up to 11 and hitting on a celebrity. It’s like he knew he was supposed to try and get laid at a conference and deliberately planned the worst way to go about it. Or he’s got weird power issues - who knows.

Anyway, you guys who aren’t dealing with messed up agendas - you’ll get more action if you don’t act like a creep.

Comment #29: aiabx  on  07/05  at  11:40 AM

For the record, Guys Who Dismiss The Elevator Predator’s Behavior, I highly doubt Ms. Watson was “offended.” Threatened? Nervous? Anxious? Perturbed? Exasperated? Disgusted? Possibly.

Comment #30: SarahMC  on  07/05  at  11:40 AM

Triplanetary, didn’t you get the memo? Strong female characters means sexism is over!

Comment #31: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/05  at  11:41 AM

jdg, I’m unclear on your point: How did Rebecca speaking out cause Stef to be unable to respond publicly?  Does Rebecca have a right to censor Stef?  How does one get this right?

In the real world, having more popular people criticize you tends to drive up your traffic.

But “Rebecca is popular!” makes sense to people, because we’re still uncomfortable with giving women that much public esteem.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  11:41 AM

I can accept that propositioning a woman in an elevator is not the right way to go about things.  The reason I say “I accept…” and not “I know…” is because it’s something I’ve learned from this whole incident, and clearly I’m not the only one who was previously unaware, given the response from the blogosphere.

So to suggest that “men who corner women know what they’re doing” and that someone who propositions a woman in an elevator is “relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid” is ludicrous.  Furthermore, it defies the entire notion of privilege; privilege doesn’t mean deliberately being an asshole, it means not realising how dickish you seem because you’ve never been on the receiving end.

Reflecting, in the aftermath of all this, on some situations in my life, I’ve realised I may have been making girls uncomfortable at times in the same way Elevator Dude did.  Did I do it because I thought it would help my chances?  No - I didn’t even realise I was doing it, and now that I do know I will try to be more aware of it.

(It’s worth noting that it makes no sense to my mind that it could be used as a pickup advantage, even if I had known I was doing it - I would have thought that scaring the girl is kind of the exact opposite of the effect you’re going for.  But maybe I’m naive)

Privilege is about ignorance and our job, in a broad sense, is to educate people past that ignorance.  Suggesting that’s it’s always deliberate (and OF COURSE I understand that some creeps WILL do it deliberately) isn’t so much offensive as it is completely asinine.

To all the “double-standard” commenters, I ask: have you ever heard the “unfairly painting as a rapist” and the “your fault, should’ve known” arguments from the same individual?  Or are these different standards coming from different people that you’ve grouped together because of their gender?

Comment #33: Simbera  on  07/05  at  11:42 AM

@23: This is a both/and blog.  I believe Hemant wanted to make the peace, and he used sexist tools to achieve that goal.  It doesn’t mean he’s sexist per se.  What it means is he used easily available prejudices to achieve a goal.  Does that make sense?

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  11:43 AM

Arguments that a woman should just address sexual harassment with the harasser (WTF!) and make sure there is plenty of room for “nuanced discussion” and not “abuse” her power as a speaker to raise the issue is just another iteration of the idea that sexual harassment and abuse and violence against women are private, personal issues.  The idea that a woman who felt harassed should be required to address that in a way that allows for “nuanced discussion” is disgustingly offensive.

Comment #35: Farron  on  07/05  at  11:43 AM

And furthermore, there’s a larger issue here that needs addressing, beyond the personal details of this particular dust-up. That Stef is more likely to dig in her heels, even if true, is beside the point; there is a problem in the skeptics movement with sexism and alienation of women, and talking privately to Stef might have gotten an apology out of her that may not be forthcoming now, but that doesn’t do a goddamn thing to advance the greater point, which is that this shit is going down and it is no longer acceptable. So saying that Rebecca was abusing her power sounds to me like just more of the same effort to silence criticism on this issue, whether that’s your intent or not.

And Amanda is right - this process is painful and uncomfortable, but on rational, introspective, thoughtful people, it works and it does lead to progress. It worked on me, as a skeptical, thoughtful high schooler who was a jackass on issues of sexism. Being called out on it and having my attention drawn to the ways in which there is a problem lead me to be an ally rather than an opponent. This is a fight we need to have.

Comment #36: grolby  on  07/05  at  11:43 AM

Fuck.

I’m sick and tired of “geeky” guys claiming they get to indulge in male privilege because they don’t know better.

My son has Aspergers, and it’s the easiest thing in the world for someone with black and white thinking to follow a simple rule:  DON’T PROPOSITION WOMEN IN ELEVATORS.  It makes them uncomfortable, and whether you agree with the reasoning or not, if you proposition them in elevators, you’re an asshole.  Don’t be an asshole.

One more thing:  she said she was tired and going to bed.  He asked her to come to his room for coffee.

Again, pretend rape is not an option.  Pretend sex wasn’t even on the table.  HOW IS IT NOT RUDE TO ASK A SLEEPY PERSON WHO IS ON HER WAY TO BED TO AVOID HER BED AND DRINK BEVERAGES THAT WILL KEEP HER AWAKE? 

Even the most generous and innocent reading of that proposition is RUDE because it completely ignores what she said.  And why does he ignore what she said?  Because SHE said it.  He hadn’t listened to her all night.

Comment #37: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  11:45 AM

@grolby (#25)

I was unclear. I didn’t mean it needed to stay private. The public discussion is good. But it’s better when it’s not an ambush, and it’s good when one side isn’t completely in control. Rebecca could say whatever she wanted, and even if someone questioned her, she can simply not answer. She could strip whatever context she wanted. It’s neither fair nor effective to start the discussion that way.

Comment #38: jdg30  on  07/05  at  11:45 AM

Tim, the way strong people react to stuff is not to roll over, but to fight back.  It’s funny that you characterize bravely speaking out as weak.  I say, as someone who knows Rebecca actually, that it’s very much the opposite.  She is very strong.

But feminism protects the weak and the strong, by the way. No one deserves abuse.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  11:48 AM

I didn’t honestly understand how sexist some people in my own atheist/scpetical movement were till this shitstorm blew up. You like to think your fellow travellers are nice people, the misogynistic crap that half the commentariat in this came out with was mindbogglingly bad.

People were even having to tell commenters to go read feminism 101 because they didn’t even have an ounce of basic understanding of what the issues were. I thought we were more enlightened that this, I honestly did.

Comment #40: Akheloios  on  07/05  at  11:49 AM

Sadly, Richard Dawkins was a dick about all this.

I’m shocked.  :|

Comment #41: cynickal  on  07/05  at  11:49 AM

@Amanda (#35),

That does make sense, and I appreciate the clarification.

Comment #42: zyxek  on  07/05  at  11:50 AM

Re: Tim @ 19

There’s a lot that I disagree with in your comment and your linked post, but I’ll seize on this as the biggest flaw:

“No need to tar and feather the entire atheist male contingent…”

That’s not what happened. I’m not sure how that’s even a remotely plausible gloss on what happened, and I’ve tried to understand how people can take that message away. What did Ms. Watson actually say in the video? (I’m taking the transcription from Ms. McGraw’s original post on the issue, found here)

“...so I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’ Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and—don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner…”

Aside from the line, “Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that,” she really didn’t have much to say about “the entire atheist male contingent”. And I’m not convinced that that is even the proper characterization of her target audience. I’m a male atheist, and I feel pretty confident that I would not do what the guy in the elevator did. So when Ms. Watson said “don’t do that,” I figured she wasn’t really talking to me, because I wouldn’t do that.

Even if we grant that she was addressing all of us, your claims of “tar and feather” are cartoonish. “Don’t proposition women unfamiliar to you on elevators,” is not a descriptive claim. It contains no content that addresses the nature of, well, anyone really. It makes no claims as to the qualities possessed by some or all male atheists. It is a purely prescriptive statement, an admonishment against doing something that might make a stranger who possesses some community of ideas with you uncomfortable.

Comment #43: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  11:52 AM

Calvinball, jdg. If you’re going to say that, you must take it up with Stef, who was the first to “ambush” by taking it public and claiming Rebecca is anti-sex because she doesn’t enjoy being creeped on.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  11:54 AM

@Amanda

Of course Stef can respond. And given the one in a thousand shot that something blows up like this has, she does get more exposure.

But in the vast majority of cases, a few hundred people in a room listening to you talk aren’t going to be subscribers to your blog or youtube channel. It’s a big conference, and I’d bet that even most Skepchick readers don’t necessarily follow her youtube videos. While they might know what this was about *now*, almost none of them will have seen Rebecca’s video or Stef’s response when they sit down to hear the keynote speaker call someone in the audience a sexist.

In general, we ought to be better than ambushing people we’re hoping to argue with. If you think Stef is wrong, then have the argument in such a way that your audience can decide that you’re right. Don’t put a quote up on a slide, spend two minutes attacking her, and then move on to your real topic comfortable in the knowledge that most people won’t bother to judge for themselves.

Comment #45: jdg30  on  07/05  at  11:56 AM

No, you were perfectly clear - you said Rebecca should have approached her privately before bringing it up. Utter. Bull. Shit. What if Stef had said, no, she wasn’t comfortable with her criticism being discussed? Then, of course, Rebecca would have been a bitch for talking about it anyway. Heads I win, tails you lose. Calvinball. There was no “ambush,” this is not an issue that requires some kind of contrived point-counterpoint debate in order to be fair, it is in fact MORE effective for not being set up in a way that implies that there is some kind of equivalence between sides on this elevator encounter. Again, this is changing the rules to make Rebecca wrong for bringing it up, and changing the rules to say that we aren’t, in fact, grown-ups living in a grown-up world where you are responsible for what you say.

Comment #46: grolby  on  07/05  at  11:56 AM

No need to tar and feather the entire atheist male contingent when she could have just told the guy to fuck off, but hey, what do I know?

Apparently nothing.  No one tarred and feathered “the entire atheist male contingent.” Some people tarred and feathered the clueless douchebags in it like you, which is a very positive thing. 

And as Carlie just asked over at PZ’s, have you ever made a single comment that did not contain a link to your own blog?  You might want to get that problem looked at.

Comment #47: Iris  on  07/05  at  11:56 AM

I can’t honestly say that this is the reason that I find “organized” atheism to be a bit weird and pointless, but it’s another reason to add to the pile. Not that I want to stop anyone from organizing around any aspect of their identity that they feel is interesting, empowering, fun, etc., I’ve just felt since I became an adult that atheism is uniquely badly suited to be an organizing…principle? ideology?

Anyway, insofar as I may be wrong, and that organizing along non-belief lines is a productive activity, I certainly hope Amanda is right that despite the massively dickish response from the “rank and file,” lessons are being learned and new perspectives internalized.

Comment #48: SS451  on  07/05  at  11:56 AM

It’s certainly a case of projection. It’s just that when we think of projection, usually projection comes with negative connotations. But it also can come out with POSITIVE connotations, as in this case.

People who would do the same thing and not intend it to be creepy (although I agree that it is) would project that it wasn’t intended to be creepy and that the intentions should be thought of that way. That’s what I see what is going on here.

I also think there’s a bit of thinking that there’s some “punching down” going on here. Which quite frankly for this topic is extremely awkward considering gender power roles and everything like that. 

What I find very unfortunate is that I think that for an atheist/skeptic conference, “positive projection” is actually a pretty bad thing in our society and something that is often seen in religious groups. (Where people might assume that for example a religious leader is trustworthy because they’re religious), and as such things like this really should be tackled head on.

Comment #49: Karmakin  on  07/05  at  11:57 AM

privilege doesn’t mean deliberately being an asshole, it means not realising how dickish you seem because you’ve never been on the receiving end.

Actually privilege can take many forms, and one of those forms IS deliberately being an asshole, knowing that other men - and society at large - will back you up.

To all the “double-standard” commenters, I ask: have you ever heard the “unfairly painting as a rapist” and the “your fault, should’ve known” arguments from the same individual?  Or are these different standards coming from different people that you’ve grouped together because of their gender?

Yes. Yes I have. Do you really believe that sexist thought is coherent and rational? It’s the opposite. Sexists will latch onto whatever argument suits them at the moment. The fact that these two arguments are contradictory is not an obstacle.

Comment #50: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  11:57 AM

I can accept that propositioning a woman in an elevator is not the right way to go about things.  The reason I say “I accept…” and not “I know…” is because it’s something I’ve learned from this whole incident, and clearly I’m not the only one who was previously unaware, given the response from the blogosphere.

This.

This right here was the response Rebecca expected and wanted.  “Last night I was annoyed by a guy who acted creepy.  It’s creepy and annoying to proposition women in elevators at 4AM after they’ve said they’re going to bed, so, don’t do that guys!  OK?”

Instead, she gets jumped on by assholes who go out of their way to find any possible way to excuse Creepy Elevator Guy’s behavior and belittle and exaggerate Rebecca’s.  Assholes who would have blamed her for a rape had she gone to the room with him, since she should have known better. 

 

Comment #51: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  11:57 AM

Argh, jdg, you are so full of shit. Stef’s piece is out there in the world. Rebecca didn’t make that quote up. It’s fair game. There is no obligation by any speaker on any topic to invite the person they’re criticizing up to the podium to defend themselves. It’s a pretty fucking disingenuous point when anyone can go look up the source of that quote and decide for themselves whether Rebecca was being “fair.”

Comment #52: grolby  on  07/05  at  12:01 PM

I wonder if some feminist-ally types stay away from live atheist/skeptical communities because of people like this elevator dude and his supporters.  There’s really no excuse for the behavior.  If the guy in question is 14, maybe.  But that’s not an excuse either, actually—though it would be a better explanation.

“luke123”—whaa?  Are you a troll, or just fucking stupid?

Comment #53: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  12:07 PM

jdg, you keep circling around this idea that Rebecca’s crime was using her bullhort to create change.  That’s fucked the fuck up, sorry.  And it’s super sexist—-you basically never ever see the idea floated the men who have an audience are in the wrong for using that power to speak out.  But it’s applied to women constantly.  In fact, one of the ongoing problems in the feminist movement is the trashing and shaming of women for shining too brightly. It’s ingrained sexism, and that’s all it is. 

Before you continue to dig a hole, I highly recommend reading this and thinking hard about why it is that women and not men are the ones who attract criticism for shining too brightly:

http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/trashing.htm

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:08 PM

Re: SS451 @ 49

For an example of why organized atheism is useful and has a point, have a gander at this AlterNet piece. As a godless non-American, I find the prospect of trained killers hopped-up on faith and angry at change in the world kind of terrifying, and am supremely grateful that there are people like Michael Weinstein out there trying to push back.

Comment #55: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  12:09 PM

I enjoy the good work that Rebecca does for the atheist community.  I just think this particular issue undermines the cause of women’s rights.

Social awkwardness is the most likely explanation for the incident IMHO.  Young guys being clueless.  I’m sticking with “the geek guys are even more clueless when it comes to women than average” theory in lieu of “he wanted to get me back to his room and rape me” theory.

She said no thanks.  He retreated.  What did I miss?

Rebecca is quite attractive.  She’s got youth, intelligence and spirit.  What guy wouldn’t be enraptured?  The gay ones?  I hope we don’t have to relive this incident every time some slobbering young bonehead makes an inappropriate pass at Rebecca, because it’s GONNA HAPPEN.  Whether it should or not isn’t really up for consideration (it shouldn’t).

I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.  Most of them are so girl shy already that it’s a wonder they don’t ALL end up residing in their parent’s basement until they’re 40.  It’s a tragic situation, but common enough that they made a movie about it (40 year old virgin).

I love all you peoples, on and off the elevator.

Enjoy.

Comment #56: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  12:09 PM

jdg30 (#11)

And my criticism of Rebecca is that I think she set much of that process in motion by choosing an inappropriate way to start the conversation…

But she wasn’t starting the conversation at all.  What she did was mention, for purposes of illustration, one small part of a completely public argument.  She did it in front of a vastly smaller audience than she would have on her blog, and she gave that audience the information necessary to get McGraw’s side of the story if they so chose.  (Let’s not be ridiculous and pretend that there would magically be more people from that audience failing to check compared to readers/viewers of a blog/vlog article.)

More importantly, the fact that so many people have now seen for themselves what McGraw said puts lie to the notion that what Watson did “guaranteed that only one side of the issue could be heard.”  Perhaps that was the case for a few days after the talk, before McGraw could mount a response on the internet; perhaps that’s still the case among most of those audience members.  But, given the number of people showing up to defend McGraw on all the blogs discussing the issue, the overall complaint is obviously bogus.  McGraw is being heard, and by far more people than she would have otherwise.

If we’re going to say that Watson’s greater renown can bias audiences against someone she criticizes, we have to be consistent and apply that to all venues.  Which means that, if briefly criticizing someone in a keynote speech is an abuse of power, then Watson certainly can’t use the internet to respond in arguments with lesser-knowns because that would be many times more damaging to whomever she’s criticizing.  Your notion of there being some “neutral ground” here doesn’t apply to reality.

Comment #57: A. Noyd  on  07/05  at  12:12 PM

It’s worth also pointing out that those PUA guides to picking up women that are marketed to geeks employ a lot of coercive techniques like cornering.

Comment #58: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:14 PM

It’s worth also pointing out that those PUA guides to picking up women that are marketed to geeks employ a lot of coercive techniques like cornering.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:14 PM

So now we owe rude, lecherous men extra nice smiley hugs at the cost of our own feelings of safety, or it’s our fault they will never find twoo wuv. Fuck you, Tim!

I have never, ever seen this argument proffered to defend rude behaviour from awkward, socially inept or inexperienced women...for some inexplicable reason.

Comment #60: MissPrism  on  07/05  at  12:15 PM

Tim, actually cornering requires a high level of social awareness.  An awkward person isn’t likely to pick up on how a woman’s fear of drawing attention to herself or being rude would cause her to put up with you while you got your rocks off creeping her out.  An awkward person probably has no idea how many women will tolerate sexual harassment and even being pushed into sex in order not to cross someone they’re afraid of.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:16 PM

Rebecca is quite attractive.  She’s got youth, intelligence and spirit.  What guy wouldn’t be enraptured?

And now your argument is that attractive women invite sexual harassment, albeit inadvertently. You’re getting awesomer and awesomer, Tim.

I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.  Most of them are so girl shy already that it’s a wonder they don’t ALL end up residing in their parent’s basement until they’re 40.  It’s a tragic situation, but common enough that they made a movie about it (40 year old virgin).

Classic. A man sexually harasses a woman and makes her feel threatened, and you’re worried about the effect all this will have on the man. Are you incapable of empathizing with women?

Comment #62: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  12:16 PM

Whatever happened to the axiom “Never attribute to malice what can be explained through stupidity”?

Socially awkward guy makes a mistake, acts like a total creep, gets deservedly raked over the coals. Hopefully learns his lesson.

In other news: Water is wet.

Comment #63: James K. Polk, Esq.  on  07/05  at  12:18 PM

@Tim

I’d quite like to have sex with Rosario Dawson, but that doesn’t give me the right to wield my sexual attraction to her as a threatening presence in an unwelcome environment. I’ll probably never get to have sex with Rosario Dawson, but you know what? That’s my problem, not hers. If I happened to catch her in an elevator and made her uncomfortable by propositioning her, I’d be making it her problem, and that would be wrong.

Comment #64: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  12:19 PM

Being called out on it and having my attention drawn to the ways in which there is a problem lead me to be an ally rather than an opponent. This is a fight we need to have.

Comment #37: grolby

This.
I was lucky enough that I had women call me on my male privilege.
It was embarrassing, awkward and absolutely right.
Just as Rebecca is absolutely right in exposing this to a wider audience.

Comment #65: cynickal  on  07/05  at  12:21 PM

luke123 is the name of an MRA troll over on manboobz so… I’m assuming this is the same moron.

@TheTimChannel: Young dweebs being rejected can either result in them learning proper social behavior by negative reinforcement, or it can result in them withdrawing entirely from society so we don’t have to deal with their shit anymore. As a recovered young dweeb, I’m fine with either outcome. Geek culture needs to learn that ‘social awkwardness’ isn’t an excuse for creepy behavior anymore than ‘oh don’t mind him, he just has a condition: he’s a highly functionning sociopath’ would be.

Comment #66: BlackBloc  on  07/05  at  12:22 PM

“I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.”

Oh, for fuck’s sake.  If this is going to seriously damage the guys in question, they have more serious issues.  Really.  It’s not someone else’s fault.  It’s definitely not the fault of “girls”.

Comment #67: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  12:23 PM

Rinse, repeat, James: in order to corner someone properly, you actually have to have a HIGHER level of social awareness than average.  You have to know that women tend to turtle under pressure, and some even give in to unwanted sex rather than run the risk of public humiliation or violent assault.  An awkward man would actually know none of that.  Which is why PUA guides teach awkward men how to corner and how to coerce without overtly attacking.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:23 PM

@Amanda: I absolutely would criticize a man who attacked a member of the audience during a keynote speech. I don’t see how I’m “trashing” anyone either. I think Rebecca was 100% right, and I think she made a poor decision in choosing how to express that.

@grolby: I already said I misspoke on the “private” thing and clarified what I meant.

I guess I’ll just wrap up my thoughts this way. It’s not about the guy on the elevator to me. He’s an oaf and got less than what probably ought to have come his way. It’s not even (just) about the power difference between a speaker and an attendee. Communities have accepted ways of dealing with debates. If you’re in academia, you air disputes via competing papers. If you’re in the blogosphere, you air them via blog posts. You can air them via formal debates. Whatever. The community expects those interactions and is generally prepared for them. People will click a link to see the other side of an argument. Doing this at a keynote means that (a) people won’t get all the backstory and context, and (b) they won’t generally be a part of the community that knows and cares enough to follow up. I don’t think it was a positive move to take it there, even though I think her positions were right.

Comment #69: jdg30  on  07/05  at  12:25 PM

She said no thanks.  He retreated.  What did I miss?

What you missed was that she then used the incident to illustrate why many women find the organised skeptic / atheist “movement” unwelcoming, and a bunch of dudely dudes suddenly went fucking mental at her for daring to point it out and proceeded to tell her that it’s all in her silly little head. That is the major problem here, not so much the initial clumsy propositioning.

I really don’t see what’s so difficult to understand about that. Prominent female atheist / skeptic is invited to conference to speak on why women find the movement unwelcoming. Tells dudes it’s because they don’t like being hit on by all and sundry at all hours of the day and night. Illustrates point with anecdote. Dudely shitstorm ensues wherein dudes boldly assert their unquestionable right to hit on anyone, anywhere, at any time, no matter how unwelcome or threatening their advances may be or seem. Women continue to feel unwelcome.

Would it really kill anyone to engage in a little self-examination here?

Tip: if a women has spent the entire fucking day talking about how she doesn’t like being hit on by all and sundry at conferences, that’s probably not the best time to hit on her. I know, I know, it’s a terrible affront to your unquestionable dudely right to hit on anyone, anywhere, at any time, no matter etc, etc, but seriously, if you can’t show a little consideration for the feelings of the target (and I use that word advisedly) of your “affections”, you’re probably not going to be terribly successful anyway.

Shorter: try thinking of women as people, complete with feelings and desires of their own which deserve your respect, rather than merely holes you’d like to fuck.

Comment #70: Dunc  on  07/05  at  12:25 PM

I enjoy the good work that Rebecca does for the atheist community.  I just think this particular issue undermines the cause of women’s rights.

Ah. I see. Care to be specific as to how?

Rebecca is quite attractive.  She’s got youth, intelligence and spirit.  What guy wouldn’t be enraptured?  The gay ones?  I hope we don’t have to relive this incident every time some slobbering young bonehead makes an inappropriate pass at Rebecca, because it’s GONNA HAPPEN.  Whether it should or not isn’t really up for consideration (it shouldn’t).

Holy hell, are you a patronizing, creepy asshole or what?

I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.  Most of them are so girl shy already that it’s a wonder they don’t ALL end up residing in their parent’s basement until they’re 40.  It’s a tragic situation, but common enough that they made a movie about it (40 year old virgin).

Yeah, sounds like you’re really concerned about women’s rights. It’s so obvs the fault of screechy mean feminists who point out that it’s creepy to corner women in an elevator that these guys aren’t getting laid. Someone think of the poor virgin geeks!

Fuck off, tool.

Comment #71: grolby  on  07/05  at  12:26 PM

@Tim 57:

I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.

Oh, yes.  Saying “this particular behavior makes me feel uncomfortable and creeped out, so hey guys, please don’t do that.  OK?” is exactly the same as having a “savage opinion” of these “ill-mannered young dweebs,” one that might even be seriously damaging.  To them.

Jeezus Haploid Christ.

Also, congratulations on finally making a comment without a link to your blog.  See?  Some people really can learn and change.

Comment #72: Iris  on  07/05  at  12:27 PM

@cynickal

“I was lucky enough that I had women call me on my male privilege.
It was embarrassing, awkward and absolutely right.”

This is good.  (And of course the power differential exists in many other spheres. )

Comment #73: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  12:28 PM

Damn, that Always Sunny clip really boils it down. I get the feeling that making some Mystery/Neg-practicing douche watch that clip would have the same effect as forcing a chickenhawk to watch Starship Troopers: total worship of the creepy and lack of awareness of the satirical.

Sad to see Dawkins harrumphing. One would think that after having to suffer through so many conferences, etc. w/ Christopher Hitchens he’d understand how obviously attractive atheism is to narcissistic egotools.

Really, it’s the Hitchens and Bernard Henri-Levi types who tar a lot of the rest of us. They are of the ‘Sit down little girl, the men are talking’ school of peacock douchebaggery. Comes in all shapes and forms. Funny how so many of them are either chickenhawks or that brand of libertarianism in which the bases of all their privileges seem justified or natural. It’s like the Divine Right of Kings (not Queens, however much the Dr. Helens and whomever the newsreader is on the Adam Carolla podcast wish it to be so), though draped in evolutionary bio, which Amanda dissects so often.

Sometimes I think about how some personality types are just so ingrained in our DNA, so much so that they come to us throughout the centuries, regardless of time, place, or technological stage, that civilization can only nurture them to a point. So for a character like the one who tried the Implication on Rebecca Watson, who’s a creep who should be tarred and feathered (or facebooked as such), it’s almost like a societal victory that his douchetude gets to be draped in social darwinistic drivel rather than God’s Law or Braavosi. Gotta start the forces of positivistic thinking somewhere, right?

Anyway, if somehow we could all come together and abolish the sexism in the atheistic movement, I think it’d go a long way towards shutting up the people who concern troll people like PZ who argue eloquently and forcefully against the forces of stupid in this world. The more we can fix the ‘loud guy at the party yelling about how much God sucks’ - almost assuredly the same guy who’d try what he did on Rebecca after that gambit didn’t work (surprise), the more easily we can convince regular folk who can remember many instances of that guy to take us seriously in the fight to take science more seriously than Rick Warren.

Comment #74: DupinTM  on  07/05  at  12:29 PM

Sure you would, jdg.  It’s just a remarkable coincidence that the “your star shines too brightly, turn it down” argument was invented when a woman said something some people didn’t want to hear.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:29 PM

Sure you would, jdg.  It’s just a remarkable coincidence that the “your star shines too brightly, turn it down” argument was invented when a woman said something some people didn’t want to hear.

Comment #76: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:29 PM

Most of us males identify with the Dublin Elevator Stalker because most of us have done something equivalent or worse (I claim no exception).

Some of us learn better. The first step, dudes, is admitting to yourself what doesn’t work. We got a fine case study here, and Watson gives us excellent advice (particularly around 5:00).

Time to choose: lead with your dick in an empty elevator at 4 am, or learn how to play it cool at events where women feel welcome.

Just as too many males are looking at the wrong part of the picture, some feminists may be doing the same. I don’t know enough about the context of this conference, or Watson’s & McGraw’s respective statuses (stati?), but from the outside I keep getting the impression that RW’s callout of SMcG is being judged by classroom standards, which don’t seem to apply very well.

Comment #77: Pierce R. Butler  on  07/05  at  12:34 PM

Rebecca’s crime was using her bullhort to create change.  That’s fucked the fuck up, sorry
——————————

Once in my adult life,  I was roped into going to church (Easter Sunday at that).  It was about twenty five years ago with my first wife.  To make matters worse, the church was in Magee, MS, a Baptist fundamentalist haven.

At some point in the service, the pastor asked for ‘special’ donations to use towards the purpose of recruiting new members into the church.  I sat quietly.  After the service my father-in-law saw fit to introduce me to the pastor.  I decided to pull out my rhetorical bullhorn at this point.  As we negotiated the friendly hellos, I calmly asked the preacher:  “If I give you ten dollars for your church recruitment fund, can I expect to see at least ONE black person in your congregation the next time I visit?”  It was extremely awkward for my racist father-in-law, if not so much for the preacher.  He responded that ‘they have their own churches”.  I finished the exchange, with “Funny that, since you both profess belief in the same God” as my father-in-law did his best to make our exit as hasty as possible.

Again, this was Easter Sunday.

I was told it was an inappropriate time/place to raise the issue “bullhorn* (by my family-in-law).  Was it?  You judge.  It was certainly more “PZ” than “RD”, that’s for sure.  I wasn’t hassled to attend after that.  I am also pretty sure they didn’t recruit any black members since then either.

At the end of the day, my bullhorn moment was as effective as Rebecca’s is going to end up being.  Twenty five years hence, there will still be clueless males CHASING females using inappropriate and insensitive techniques.  The geek science guys are all happy to embrace your positive feminism I can assure you, specially if it helps them get laid in any way.

Most of the angst directed at Rebecca is from guys who wish and dream that a girl would try to proposition them for sex in the elevator (or WHEREVER) at four am (or WHENEVER).  Most of these guys aren’t gonna ever get sex unless YOU rape them.  All they are asking is for YOU GIRLS to pitch in and DO YOUR PART!!

Enjoy.

Comment #78: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  12:36 PM

The Tim Channel (#57)

I hope we don’t have to relive this incident every time some slobbering young bonehead makes an inappropriate pass at Rebecca, because it’s GONNA HAPPEN.  Whether it should or not isn’t really up for consideration (it shouldn’t).

You contradict yourself by saying it shouldn’t happen but insisting no one should attempt to educate men not to do it.  It happens because people like you are more afraid of damaging geeky boys’ access to sex than fixing the fucking problem.

Comment #79: A. Noyd  on  07/05  at  12:36 PM

I’ve been in, around, and observing a few different anti-oppression movements for a couple of decades now, and I feel like sharing a helpful technique for not being The Privileged Person Who Doesn’t Get It.

Just stop. Know your limits when it comes to taking things on. Realize that you’re not going to erase our counteract all the ways your privileges affect you. Admit it’s okay that some things are too hard to do right now.

In this case, if you’re a man and you’re honestly not ready to come to grips with the issue of Creepy Elevator Guy, acknowledge that you’re not ready and quit playing games. Maybe you just got through some experience that totally sensitized you to an issue of racism or homophobia or whatever, and it’s a lot to adjust to, and your psyche can’t change everything at once.

What I’m seeing here is a lot of guys obfuscating the issue of sexual harrassment and how it interacts with rape culture. This is hard stuff for most men to take in. I’m saying: if it freaks you out too much to deal, just make a note of it, bookmark some of Amanda’s work, do whatever you have to do… but don’t feel obligated to defend the patriarchy because you personally are feeling targeted. Detach. It’s possible to pay attention to the issue without owning it.

I’m not at all sure I’m explaining this very well. I guess I’m just saying if you feel defensive about some discussion of oppression, maybe you’ve temporarily hit your limit of personal issues to work on. That just means you need to project your ego a little, but there are healthier ways to do it than to invalidate what people are honestly telling you.

Comment #80: catfood  on  07/05  at  12:37 PM

Whatever happened to the axiom “Never attribute to malice what can be explained through stupidity”?

Nothing happened to it. It was wrong to begin with, and is still wrong now.

Comment #81: MarinaS  on  07/05  at  12:37 PM

Yeah, speaking as an awkward man (married, but that’s because my wife, who was my good friend at the time moved towards me) there is absolutely no way I could ever proposition anybody. The entire idea of it is simply…it’s unthinkable. Terrifying. Mainly because I KNOW that it would come across as creepy. I don’t see how it ever possibly couldn’t.

Hell, I can’t even ask male friends to do things because it comes across as creepy to me.

Comment #82: Karmakin  on  07/05  at  12:38 PM

@ Amanda (69) “… in order to corner someone properly, you have to have a HIGHER level of social awareness than average.”

Totally not true. You certainly CAN learn that from a PUA technique handbook. To state that you MUST have a higher level of social awareness is not accurate.

Comment #83: James K. Polk, Esq.  on  07/05  at  12:38 PM

@Amanda

Your response effectively prevents any criticism of any woman with a public presence.

Comment #84: jdg30  on  07/05  at  12:39 PM

If you’re in academia, you air disputes via competing papers.

As someone in the academy, this is news to me. Papers are only one way of airing disputes in academia. People criticize other ideas in talks, keynote addresses, articles in lay publications, editorial pieces in journals, and, in fact, any public venue you can name all the time. Whether you are claiming this out of ignorance or knowingly, it is utterly false that there is only one accepted way to have a dispute, whether in academia or blogging circles. You are inventing this “rule” of whole cloth. The actual rules are: 1. Do not misattribute, cherry-pick or attack a straw person, and 2. Provide proper attribution so the audience can access the specific source that you are criticizing. If Rebecca broke one of those rules, that is in fact inappropriate. This idea that the venue itself is somehow inappropriate is simply bullshit.

Comment #85: grolby  on  07/05  at  12:40 PM

This is good.  (And of course the power differential exists in many other spheres. )

Comment #74: CosmoVanPelt

Which leads back to Amanda’s comment, “cornering requires a high level of social awareness.”

In this case the Elevator Dude was *very* careful to remove Rebecca’s power and replace it with his own.

Comment #86: cynickal  on  07/05  at  12:45 PM

What I see going on here is a bunch of people who are empathizing with those who are having their idiocy aired in public, rather than those who were hurt by the idiocy in the first place.  Not cool. Sure, it’s embarrassing if you fuck up and someone calls you on it.  If it happens in public, even if the call-out is anonymous and merely intended to teach others “This is bad, don’t do it,” then it’s even more embarrassing.  Social instinct drives us to save face, to mitigate the embarrassment by protestations of innocence and ignorance (or any other means available). However, rational thought should drive us to learn from the situation and move on.  I’m really dismayed at this whole thing, because for a group of individuals who claim to approach the world in a rational fashion, I’m seeing an awful lot of instinctive reactions.

Full disclosure: I’ve been there. I’m usually socially savvy, but on occasion I miss a major cue.  (Not quite as badly as Elevator Dude, but close.) I certainly don’t intend to cause pain, but it happens, and sometimes the injured party covers so well that I don’t even know I’ve screwed up. Sometimes for months!  I much prefer to be told when this happens SO THAT I CAN AVOID DOING IT AGAIN.  I allow myself to make mistakes, sure, but I’d rather only make them once. So I sincerely say I’m sorry, we all have a laugh at my expense, and everyone moves on without me causing more pain to make myself look better. 

Maybe I’m a bitch, but I expect other grown people who profess to be mature human beings to more or less be able to do the same.

Comment #87: verity khat  on  07/05  at  12:48 PM

Regarding the propriety or impropriety of Rebecca Watson identifying Stef McGraw by name during her talk:

I think it is important and helpful to place this behavior in the larger context. In the aftermath of Phil Plait’s “Don’t Be A Dick” speech, he was criticized for being overly vague and refusing to “name names,” as it were. This was a major brouhaha at the time.

We can’t have it both ways. Either we agree that we should be specific, provide evidence, and name names, or we don’t. In my opinion, a public conversation is a public conversation. If you are willing to put your name on your opinion publicly, then you should expect people who disagree with you to name you by name as well. (Whether it could have been handled better is another discussion; I’m speaking here only to those who criticize Watson’s use of McGraf’s name.)

Is there video of the talk, incidentally? I would love to evaluate that moment for myself.

Comment #88: jenea  on  07/05  at  12:49 PM

What pisses me off the most about this is that Rebecca Watson, Jen McCreight, you, and a lot of other bloggers have to take time off from reporting on the wildly crazy religious/right-wing/authoritarian bullshit and instead devote time to instructing members of our own community in basic feminism.

This shouldn’t be hard, read just a bit, Feminism 101 is great, and the average person is a long way towards being a someone who knows how not to be a complete arsehole to women.

Comment #89: Akheloios  on  07/05  at  12:50 PM

Sadly, Richard Dawkins was a dick about all this.

Not exactly shocking.  With all due respect to Amanda and all the other cool atheists out there (I am an agnostic-to-atheist who has no interest in this fight), the militant atheists I know personally are misanthropic libertarians who couldn’t care less about oppressed women (except when saying so might get them laid), they just resent being told that they have to be nice to people.  That contingent, in my experience, is the most likely to idolize Dawkins.

Comment #90: Flora  on  07/05  at  12:50 PM

That’s untrue, jdg.  I think “making up rules forbidding women to speak under certain circumstances after they’ve spoken” allows all sorts of criticism of women!  For instance, you can criticize women by not attempting to silence them with made-up, after the fact rules.  You could be honest and say that you support running The Implication on women, or just admit that you wish women wouldn’t say stuff that implies atheists are less than perfect.  You could, in other words, say what you mean.  You just don’t want to because you know that you can’t win that argument.  Thus, Calvinball.

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:52 PM

Re: catfood @ 81

That is excellent advice, and well put. The difficulty is in getting it to stick. In popular discourse, there seems to be more of a focus on immediacy and getting the first word in, as opposed to careful introspection and the last.

Comment #92: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  12:52 PM

Your response effectively prevents any criticism of any woman with a public presence.

Comment #85: jdg30

Does it hurt to be so stupid?
You are arguing to *enforce* ad hominem attacks rather than substantial debate.
If you have a criticism of an *idea* that a woman holds, argue the *idea*

Kind of the same way you’d (theoretically) argue with a dude.

Comment #93: cynickal  on  07/05  at  12:53 PM

I know many geeks, some of whom would probably fit the socially awkward stereotype, and not one of them would corner a woman in an elevator, ever. There is a big difference between being a socially awkward geek and an asshole / harasser / coercer. Besides being nice guys, most geeks are VERY good at risk assessment, and so they’d recognize both the futility and risk to themselves (of rejection and blowback) of that approach.

If I were a male geek I would not be promoting the line that geekiness excuses this guy’s actions. I would, in fact, be working to label his behavior for what it was - assholery and not at all related to geekiness.

Comment #94: lifelongactivist  on  07/05  at  12:53 PM

James, your response to me pointing out that you have to have a higher level of social awareness is to say, “Well some people start off ignorant but learn through reading, so no?”  Um, wouldn’t learning about how women often react when coerced mean you now have that information, putting you into the camp of men who know this? 

In other words, you just confirmed that you and I both know The Implication is done by men well aware of what they’re doing and not a mistake made by awkward men at all.

Comment #95: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  12:56 PM

Most of these guys aren’t gonna ever get sex unless YOU rape them.  All they are asking is for YOU GIRLS to pitch in and DO YOUR PART!!

Making light of rape doesn’t become okay just because you’re “joking” about a woman doing the raping.

And second, I’m afraid that the sex-having status of any given “geeky” man is not the feminist community’s problem. It is, in fact, the problem of absolutely nobody but the individual man in question. If a man is completely unsuccessful at attracting sex partners, he can evaluate what he’s doing and try something else, or, like many “geeky” men (and like you, apparently), he can simply blame women for it. But where this latter group goes wrong is that your right to get laid (to the extent that it exists) does not trump the rights of people (including women) to bodily autonomy and safety from harassment. What you’re basically saying here is that women get sexually harassed because they’re frigid bitches who won’t fuck those poor geeky guys, and to that I say, fuck you, asshole.

Comment #96: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  12:57 PM

Amanda,

There are some very important parts of Hemant’s post that you deliberately left out of your quote block in order to reinforce your own argument.  This type of blog arguing back and forth is damaging to your own credibility directly, and feminism and atheism as a whole indirectly.

Homeboy in the elevator is creeptastic.  Some feminists think he should be tarred and feathered, others think he made a minor violation.  Neither thinks he is an innocent. What exactly is the issue again?

Hemant was just pointing out, and I think he did it very well, that a speaker at a conference should be professional enough to keep his or her personal arguments private and stay on the topic at hand rather than publicly shame someone for voicing their opinions.

Comment #97: Thegoodman  on  07/05  at  12:59 PM

@95, lifelongactivist:

I’m not sure that most geek guys are nice guys.  Even many nice guys aren’t nice guys. 
Anyway, being “nice” isn’t something one is, it’s about what one does.  I think this is actually helpful in that one can make mistakes, and learn from them, without falling to one side or another of a good/bad divide.  But it also says that in any given situation, there is a choice to be made.

Comment #98: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  01:01 PM

jdg30 @ #85 - “Your response effectively prevents any criticism of any woman with a public presence.”

Your statement is so wrong I’m not sure where to start. I’m wondering though, if you either don’t understand the point of the post or if you are being intentionally stubborn because Amanda called you out on your wrongness and you refuse to acknowledge that.

Comment #99: Mark  on  07/05  at  01:02 PM

Thegoodman, do not imply without evidence that I mischaracterized his argument. 

Also, sexual harassment is not a “private” argument, nor is putting up a YouTube basically calling someone frigid a “private” action.

Comment #100: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  01:03 PM

@Thegoodman / 98 :

” This type of blog arguing back and forth is damaging to your own credibility directly, and feminism and atheism as a whole indirectly. ” 

Oh, OK.  Thanks for letting us know.  Concern trolling ; you’re soaking in it!

Comment #101: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  01:04 PM

Mark @100: It’s the latter.

Comment #102: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  01:04 PM

Social awkwardness is the most likely explanation for the incident IMHO.  Young guys being clueless

I think you’re wrong here. As a socially awkward person myself, I think I can speak with a certain amount of authority, here: he wasn’t being socially awkward. He was being socially aggressive, doing something that took a large amount of confidence, possibly because he had done it several times before. A socially awkward person would have acted differently.

Comment #103: Tyro  on  07/05  at  01:05 PM

Forgive me for not reading the comments.  There’s only so many times a woman can read that some twit’s boner is more important than her safety, that her comfort level should be set by strangers, that honest discomfort is paranoia and that saying “Please don’t objectify me.” really means “Hit on me in the stupidest way possible.”  Oh and that clueless men need so much of our love and uncritical support that there really isn’t anything left over for women.  (Although strangely, no one has mention what all this love and support is supposed achieve.) 

I did read the article.  Twice.  And sent it to a friend.  Thanks.

Comment #104: Bkitty  on  07/05  at  01:06 PM

“She said no thanks.  He retreated.  What did I miss?”

That she had pre-emptively rejected that kind of advance THE WHOLE EVENING THROUGH.  His approach was essentially the same as saying, “but what about *my* penis?  You didn’t explicitly reject *it* yet, just all those other, loser penises.”

Us “girls” will damage the egos of anyone who has this mindset.  And rightly so.  And we probably don’t really care whether you think “this particular issue undermines the cause of women’s rights” because we don’t think you (a) care enough about feminism to even (b) know about feminism and what advances it.

Comment #105: oldfeminist  on  07/05  at  01:07 PM

Who thinks he should be “tarred and feathered”, Goodman? Link please! Or perhaps, does “tarring and feathering” consist of being publicly named and asked not to do that again when it happens to a white guy? (I suspect I’m on very safe ground in assuming he’s white.)

He was being a threatening, coercive douche, or he was being a clueless douche. I don’t pretend to know which, although I will give him the benefit of the doubt (just like feminists are always accused of not doing!) and say the latter. Still douchey! Extreme cluelessness, in adult life, is chosen.

Comment #106: MissPrism  on  07/05  at  01:08 PM

@98: Thegoodman

This is not a personal argument about a private matter. Again, this is about deeply held attitudes in a community that serve to make a significant number of women feel unsafe and unwelcome at public events. There’s nothing private about that.  Watson briefly brought up McGraw’s public statements as part of that discussion.  How this is being framed as a personal dispute I really have no idea. (Wait, I do: sexism).

All the negative reactions and defensiveness from men who are so worried about geeky men having equal access to female bodies convinces me more than ever that a large portion of male atheists who loudly condemn religion for the worst abuses of women care no more for real women than the right wing who use genital mutilation and burqas to work up hate for all muslims.

Comment #107: Farron  on  07/05  at  01:10 PM

“Personally, I think that convincing an audience of atheists that the religious right sucks is probably much less of a challenge than convincing them to look at themselves and find imperfections,”

But.. I thought these conferences existed for us to pat each other on the back about how right we all are about everything, just like church!

Comment #108: Dan Watson  on  07/05  at  01:10 PM

@jdg30 #46

It’s a big conference, and I’d bet that even most Skepchick readers don’t necessarily follow her youtube videos. While they might know what this was about *now*, almost none of them will have seen Rebecca’s video or Stef’s response when they sit down to hear the keynote speaker call someone in the audience a sexist.
In general, we ought to be better than ambushing people we’re hoping to argue with. If you think Stef is wrong, then have the argument in such a way that your audience can decide that you’re right. Don’t put a quote up on a slide, spend two minutes attacking her, and then move on to your real topic comfortable in the knowledge that most people won’t bother to judge for themselves.

Where you at this conference? Also, are you an acquaintance of either of the parties involved?

You’re making it seem like this was some huge conference and the topics under discussion where here-say or that couldn’t be independently verified and somehow because Rebecca says something people just take her word for it (news flash, they have wi-fi at these shindigs now). I was at the conference and attended the talk and there are several things in your comment that to me at least are incorrect: 1) You consider a Student Leadership Conference with 80 students and perhaps 30 CFI branch leaders meeting at CFI headquarters a “big conference”. No it isn’t. 2) Rebecca didn’t call the Stef a sexist. 3) Rebecca did a fine job of explaining the context. I hadn’t followed any of the story and her summary was quite accurate. 4) For Rebecca, this was a “real topic”. 5) As we saw, clearly many people *did* bother to research themselves and form a more informed opinion. Unlike the skeptics that you seem to hang out with, the ones I know are pretty happy to look shit up.

Comment #109: SimonSays  on  07/05  at  01:12 PM

good luck to Rebecca Watson. she seems to me to be handling herself with grace and aplomb while trying to speak reasonably to those who only want to prove they’re right. but, as they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

Comment #110: shade  on  07/05  at  01:14 PM

Most of the angst directed at Rebecca is from guys who wish and dream that a girl would try to proposition them for sex in the elevator (or WHEREVER) at four am (or WHENEVER).

I can’t believe this didn’t occur to me here, but it’s obviously true.  A lot of men (especially geeks) are really envious that women have sex appeal and they don’t*.  It manifests in a bunch of ways, but this certainly fits the bill.

*Yes, I know this’ll get blowback too.  But it is their experience, of course.

Comment #111: Brian  on  07/05  at  01:14 PM

One more thing for those still trying to defend Creepy Elevator Guy as merely clueless:

He prefaced his proposition with the acknowledgement that it was inappropriate.  And then went ahead and propositioned a woman trapped on an elevator.

Comment #112: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  01:15 PM

PZ has a bigger platform than Rebecca Watson (of whom I hadn’t heard until this happened), and Dawkins more than either of them, but I didn’t see the “you’re not allowed to talk about anyone less famous than yourself” rule being applied to either of them. This is a shocking lapse, unless said rule was just invented to shut up the lady.

Comment #113: MissPrism  on  07/05  at  01:16 PM

“women have sex appeal and they don’t”

I see what you’re saying, but here’s some of that blowback you predicted!

Attractive women have sex appeal and they don’t. Such chaps rarely even notice that unattractive women exist, which is why they can state that they would totes love for a woman to proposition them in an elevator, because when they say “woman” they are thinking of a pretty young one with good hygiene.

Comment #114: MissPrism  on  07/05  at  01:19 PM

Here I go with another life anecdote: years ago I went to lunch and then had a dinner date with a guy I wasn’t sure I could become interested in.

Third date (he asked me out for all three) afterward we were necking in the living room of my apartment, when I decided: no, not for me.

I politely tried to end the evening without hurting his feelings.

However he made it clear that he believed the Third Date Rule was mandatory: I owed him sex.

“You know,” he “joked,” “I could just rape you.”

He was a foot taller and maybe a hundred pounds heavier, so I couldn’t take that as a “joke.”

“Maybe you could rape me,” I replied. “But I wouldn’t fall asleep after, if I were you, because I have a kitchen full of knives. And I know where you live and where you work.”

That got him out of my apartment, but an incident later connected even more closely to what we’re discussing here.

When talking to a male friend who knew (and worked with) creepy guy I mentioned the rape threat.

Male friend got all huffy, and chastised me for blackening creepy guy’s name.

Get it: creepy guy wasn’t at fault for threatening to rape me, I was somehow at fault for qouting him doing so.

Male friend is no longer my friend, and a half dozen years later, when I met up with creepy guy again, by accident, in another city a continent away, creepy guy hit on me again in a situation where I could be vulnerable (late at night, alone in a dark public place.) So even the threat of castration wasn’t enough to shut creepy guy down.

But keep in mind, that somehow I’m at fault for mentioning his creepy, threatening behavior, according to Guy Theory.

 

Comment #115: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  01:20 PM

Yeah, but this was just this *one* conference. It’s not like there’s a history</a,> of this <a href=“http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline”>stuff.

Comment #116: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/05  at  01:20 PM

bah html fail

Comment #117: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/05  at  01:24 PM

Captain Awkward has an excellent post about the bloke who pulled The Implication on her. Luckily she managed to lock him out of her house in the snow in his bare feet. Of the 20 comments, 3 are from women with similar experiences.

http://captainawkward.com/2011/02/21/rape-awkward/

Comment #118: MissPrism  on  07/05  at  01:25 PM

Hemant was just pointing out, and I think he did it very well, that a speaker at a conference should be professional enough to keep his or her personal arguments private and stay on the topic at hand rather than publicly shame someone for voicing their opinions.

How many times do we have to point out that Rebecca Watson did nothing unprofessional and did not “shame” anyone except under these new rules of discourse that have been conveniently (and post-hoc) invented for Lady Atheists who have committed the crime of Being Too Successful? Last I checked, public disagreement with the opinions of others is the skeptical community thing. Again, what the fuck is she supposed to talk about? That she likes rainbows?

Comment #119: grolby  on  07/05  at  01:38 PM

MissPrism (#114)

PZ has a bigger platform than Rebecca Watson (of whom I hadn’t heard until this happened), and Dawkins more than either of them, but I didn’t see the “you’re not allowed to talk about anyone less famous than yourself” rule being applied to either of them.

Apparently it’s a special meatspace-only rule.  I can sort of sympathize with having a different reaction to confrontation on the internet versus live and in person.  My own preferences are for carrying on arguments where I’m more articulate and can’t be put on the spot, but I don’t think that I would have a right to say someone can’t criticize my arguments in front of a meatspace audience just because that particular venue makes me uncomfortable.

Also, if it was that big of a deal, there was a Q&A where McGraw could have easily stated briefly that she felt there was something wrong with Watson’s portrayal of her argument but that she would rebut Watson via blog/vlog/whatever.  (The other rule being made up to say that McGraw couldn’t use the Q&A because it wouldn’t have been polite or something is crap.)

Comment #120: A. Noyd  on  07/05  at  01:41 PM

Out of this whole mess, the part that makes the least sense to me is the claim that Rebecca did something wrong by naming and criticizing Stef’s comments. When you choose to verbally attack someone who has a wider platform than you do, well, duh, you run the risk of them using that platform to respond! If I said something nasty about Rachel Maddow and she used her TV show to answer my accusation, would that somehow be wrong of her? Are famous people forbidden to defend themselves from criticism by less-famous people?

It’s not just in sexual situations where men feel they have a right to a woman’s attention. In reference to all this, I wrote about a similar encounter I witnessed at the last FFRF convention, in the hope that this might help the Entitled Brigade get a clue as to the difference between acceptable and unacceptable means of approaching a stranger. (Spoiler: It didn’t.)

Comment #121: Ebonmuse  on  07/05  at  01:45 PM

I’d say we’re seeing a shocking lack of empathy, but this sort of thing happens far too often to pretend to be shocked.

What the guys defending the bro on the elevator really need is to be alone on a slow elevator at 4AM with a 6’ 6” 250 pound guy with an off-center purple skyscraper mohawk and well over half his body covered in tattoos, that won’t stop talking about how cute they are.

Maybe then they’d learn why you don’t get to define comfort zones and boundaries for other people.

Comment #122: JThompson  on  07/05  at  01:47 PM

that a speaker at a conference should be professional enough to keep his or her personal arguments private and stay on the topic at hand rather than publicly shame someone for voicing their opinions.

All disagreements between women are “personal.” 

All disagreements between two women consist of one big strong bullying mean girl and one cringing delicate flower.  Disagreeing out loud is “shaming,” if you’re a woman talking to another woman.  Public space is boy space; women putting their voices in it is unprofessional, unbecoming, and kind of just gross and unseemly. 

Also, women are so scared and timid about “voicing their opinions” that a sort of uncritical head-patting and avuncular smiling (from men, who own public discourse) is the appropriate response to anything they say; it’s ok to patronize them as long as you don’t frighten them by taking them seriously, especially if you’re another woman—other women are so scary!

Comment #123: sophonisba  on  07/05  at  01:50 PM

Without being too familiar with the people or organizations involved, it appears that Rebecaa Watson is being bombarded by a trifecta of bullshit - 1) a clearly unwelcome advance, 2) grief for pointing out that it was an unwelcome advance, and 3) grief for pointing out the widespread support for the guy making the unwelcome advance.  Obviously there is a lot of focus on the “was it or wasn’t it” a creeper move (1), but I actually find (2) and (3) more disturbing

Comment #124: TF79  on  07/05  at  01:55 PM

As someone who can be supremely oblivious to social cues, I have to agree with Rebecca and a lot of what is being said supporting her.  You do not help anyone by letting the clueless remain so.  You don’t tip-toe around it, or be subtle, you come straight out and tell them what they’re doing wrong.  By bringing this to a wider audience, Rebecca has turned an awkward encounter into a teaching moment for countless people.  Women can learn that this behaviour should not be tolerated, and they are allowed to refuse.  Awkward men learn that this is an unwanted behaviour, and can learn better ways to approach women.  And assholes learn to go fuck themselves, what with all the mastubatory “He was just being a Nice Guy TM” responses that go around when shit like this occurs.

This is also a great way to point out that we need to honor other people’s experiences.  Maybe the guy in the elevator really was just trying to be friendly, and didn’t realise how he was making Rebecca feel.  But that’s not how she experienced the encounter, and his potential obliviousness does not nullify or invalidate her discomfort.

Comment #125: Jayn Newell  on  07/05  at  01:59 PM

Most of these guys aren’t gonna ever get sex unless YOU rape them.  All they are asking is for YOU GIRLS to pitch in and DO YOUR PART!!

Women do not exist for the purpose of doling out sex in order to buttress men’s egos. Women do not exist for sex, period. You entitled prick.

Comment #126: Saurs  on  07/05  at  02:06 PM

I just love how it’s always the poor geeky men who are socially awkward and just like women should alter their behavior to be gatekeepers to supposed predatory and out of control male sexuality, women should alter their behavior to not hurt the feelings of geeky men.  Protip: women can be socially awkward, too.

What if a woman doesn’t know how to respond to an unwanted advance? To a possibly predatory advance? To an uncomfortable situation where she’s alone at 4am with a strange man?  Apparently according to some people it’s still her responsibility to protect the feelings of geeky men by just sucking it up and not saying out loud that they should not hit on women they don’t know, especially in a palce where you are gathered as peers.

Comment #127: Farron  on  07/05  at  02:12 PM

I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.  Most of them are so girl shy already that it’s a wonder they don’t ALL end up residing in their parent’s basement until they’re 40.  It’s a tragic situation, but common enough that they made a movie about it (40 year old virgin).

I love all you peoples, on and off the elevator.

Enjoy.

Most of the angst directed at Rebecca is from guys who wish and dream that a girl would try to proposition them for sex in the elevator (or WHEREVER) at four am (or WHENEVER).  Most of these guys aren’t gonna ever get sex unless YOU rape them.  All they are asking is for YOU GIRLS to pitch in and DO YOUR PART!!

Enjoy.

 

Enjoy what, you fucking freak?

Comment #128: keshmeshi  on  07/05  at  02:17 PM

Enjoy what, you fucking freak?

He makes a pretty enjoyable punching bag.

Comment #129: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  02:20 PM

I call bullshit on “socially awkward.” I am socially awkward. Damn near trainwreck for most of my life. I hang out with other social trainwrecks. Y’know what we don’t do? Proposition folk in elevators. Aside from being Creepy McGee, it means you’re going to be stuck in an elevator with someone that just shot you down. The Poor Man In The Elevator was not being “socially awkward.” He was, as Tyro pointed out, being socially aggressive. I know it’s anecdata, but every. last. socially awkward person I have been around would not have said boo to her, and not at 4am in an elevator. You know who would? Creepy McGee.

Comment #130: DoktorJerusalem  on  07/05  at  02:22 PM

@126 It’s my personal belief that as long as we pretend that there’s ever a right way to “approach women” (or people for that matter) like that that this stuff will continue to happen.

This isn’t a nice guy whine or passive aggressive or whatever. It’s that I think the way our society interacts in these regards is deeply flawed and needs to be thrown out the window.

Comment #131: Karmakin  on  07/05  at  02:27 PM

@ 128, Thank you, Farron.  Personally, it took me years to develop enough of a spine to emphatically turn down unwanted advances, even those that struck me as uncomfortable, because of the incredible pressure to be “nice” to every man who approached me.  Socially awkward and geeky isn’t a fun label for anyone, but is undeniably more of a problem when you’re the potential effing prey.  Most of the people whose primary concern is for that poor, awkward guy who just can’t get a date seem to look right through all the poor, awkward women that feel uncomfortable with someone following them to their car (or into the elevator) to get their number.

Comment #132: Secret Agent Norman  on  07/05  at  02:41 PM

This is may be a minor point, but is part of the problem that Watson isn’t describing this very well? If I were to go purely by the video transcript, some guy hit on her in an elevator, she declined, should-be end of story.

But I’m looking at this woman—I don’t know her personally, but she’s probably been propositioned before, not exactly your shrinking violet, doesn’t seem like the mountain-out-of-a-molehill type . . . and whatever the guy did creeped her out enough to rate a mention in her video and all that ensued.

I can fill in some parts (the elevator is not only a small space, but if she’s taking it to her floor, then he’s effectively following her to her room at that point; the guy apparently didn’t feel comfortable chatting her up in places where other people were around, which suggests either bad intent or the kind of social anxiety that no woman besides an ER psychiatrist should have to deal with at 4 am; he probably wasn’t all that sober [i.e., had diminished capacity to recognize what was out-of-bounds]; etc.) but that’s guesswork derived from years of saying no-thanks-no-really-I’m-not-being-coy-just-piss-off. Some people need it spelled out for them a bit more.

Comment #133: Molly, NYC  on  07/05  at  02:44 PM

The Dawkins comments really make me sad about the whole thing. I still think the guy is 97% awesome, and it annoys me that he constantly gets criticized for his “tone” rather than the content of his opinions. There’s a place in every movement for militants. But the “I’ll give you something to cry about” argument is so played that it’s hard to believe it’s really coming from him. The God Delusion made me think he really got feminism, unlike many other male atheists, but now I understand it’s not the first time he’s made these kinds of cluelessly hostile remarks.

These are skeptics. They would not find it appropriate if some religious fanatic went on to have a sermon about hell and damnation either. Why would you then expect them to sit back and nod in agreement when someone gives a feminist lecture, which is just as much an irrational dogmatic belief system ?

Real skeptics look at the evidence and know how to evaluate arguments. They don’t automatically get to win arguments because they’re on the skeptic team. If you’re going to call a point of view irrational and dogmatic, you have to actually clarify what’s irrational and dogmatic about it. The fact that you take such a statement as a given and expect others to do the same makes you as convincing and interesting to talk to as the average religious believer.

Comment #134: junk science  on  07/05  at  02:50 PM

#133 yeah, it’s quite a bit different if poor, awkward guy might experience social embarrassent for getting called out for cornering a woman in an elevator, and the poor, awkward women who have to factor in a realistic fear of rape and violence when they’re cornered in an elevator or followed to their car.

I knew a woman who had to fight off a rapist when he used the excuse of asking for directions in the parking lot of a supermarket late one night. Cops later told her that was a common ploy and she was smart to fight him off, refuse to let him in her car, and lucky to escape.

Comment #135: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  02:50 PM

Also, I get so tired of the Defenders of the Clueless

Is it possible to both (slightly) defend the clueless and also condemn this as boorish. sexist behavior? Because that’s sort of the position I want to take. Many guys really ARE clueless. They have big-time boundary issues. They grow up and they have bad role-models and influences (in the media and among their peers), and it isn’t as though we naturally and immediately pick up how to relate to members of the opposite sex. (I’m sure girls grow up with some unrealistic and incorrect assumptions about guys as well.)

But on the other hand, I think the way they learn that things are in fact unacceptable is that feminism has an educational role. To take one obvious example, one big reason there is far less sexual harassment at work now than there was in the “Mad Men” era is because a lot of feminist women basically educated the public about the problem. This obviously resulted in a lot of laws and regulations, but it also probably resulted in some clueless, boorish guys getting a clue and realizing that it wasn’t right to subject their coworkers and subordinates to this sort of behavior.

So I think the right road is to keep on condemning this stuff, while also realizing that a lot of guys have a lot to learn and that it is a process.

Comment #136: Dilan Esper  on  07/05  at  02:51 PM

Maybe what we need is sensitivity training for all schoolkids at age 13 or so?  Because it clearly isn’t something that is being taught in all homes.  School is supposed to prepare you to be a functioning member of society.  I would think that learning (or at least being shown) appropriate and inappropriate ways of interacting with others ought to be part of that.

Also, if you have to preface your statement with “I know this is inappropriate…” then that should be a huge red flag to yourself that you should just STFU and/or find something appropriate to say, if you feel you must say something.  If you know it’s inappropriate then why are you saying it?

Comment #137: liberalrob  on  07/05  at  02:53 PM

Most of these guys aren’t gonna ever get sex unless YOU rape them.  All they are asking is for YOU GIRLS to pitch in and DO YOUR PART!!

Why don’t you try talking to men who have actually been raped. It looks like you need a little clarification on what that entails.

Comment #138: junk science  on  07/05  at  02:54 PM

The training in school is commonsense, and actually happened in my junior high.

This was nearly 50 years ago, but I remember that when the girls started to blossom in the seventh grade, the boys started a campaign of “snapping” the elastic bra backs.

It was embarrassing, humiliating,  and harassing (before the term had been coined.)

But not long into this, the seventh grade boys were corralled into a talk with the Principal, and although this is guesswork, I believe they were told that any more of the same (or something similar) that stepped over the line of how they were supposed to treat young ladies at school and they’d be suspended or expelled—which was quite the punishment back then.

And that ended that.

Socially awkward the seventh grade boys may have been, but they got schooled, shaped up and if they had defenders, I didn’t hear of them.

 

Comment #139: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  03:06 PM

So I think the right road is to keep on condemning this stuff, while also realizing that a lot of guys have a lot to learn and that it is a process.

Like several Pharyngula commenters pointed out, the guy on the elevator is himself a very minor part of the problem. From the number of guys panicking that now they’ll never get laid to Richard Dawkins suggesting that American feminists don’t care about Muslim women having their genitals mutilated, it’s really eye-opening to see so many men completely blow up at even the mildest criticism of their behavior or the slightest suggestion that they’re making women uncomfortable. They’re not seeing this as part of the process of gradual change but as a personal attack on them. A lot of people become skeptics because they get a rush out of feeling superior to others, not because they have a very strong reality-based mindset, and they don’t respond at all well to criticism.

Comment #140: junk science  on  07/05  at  03:07 PM

“In sum, men who corner women know what they’re doing. And yes, they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid. “

This is wrong.

If you imply that argument, then any “guy” can say that if a woman gets in an enclosed space with a man wearing “provocative” clothe, she has it coming.  This is simply not true.

Comment #141: alopias  on  07/05  at  03:17 PM

This is may be a minor point, but is part of the problem that Watson isn’t describing this very well? If I were to go purely by the video transcript, some guy hit on her in an elevator, she declined, should-be end of story.

She had recently spent time talking about how she was uncomfortable being hit on at atheist conventions just because she was a woman and how the treatment of women in atheist groups as sex objects instead of equals makes women feel unwelcome in the atheist community.  Then this guy follows her into an elevator and hits on her.

Do you need more dots connected?

Comment #142: Farron  on  07/05  at  03:17 PM

And fear of a man in an elevator is also a realistic fear.

I worked with a woman who, while taking an elevator in the building we worked in late one night, was beaten to a pulp by two men who later entered it.

No rhyme or reason to the attack, but it happened all the same.

Comment #143: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  03:19 PM

alopias—that’s not even a false dichotomy. I don’t know what that is. Could someone help me out with the rhetorical equivalent of “Because A = B, C = Dildos?”

Comment #144: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/05  at  03:20 PM

Most of these guys aren’t gonna ever get sex unless YOU rape them.  All they are asking is for YOU GIRLS to pitch in and DO YOUR PART!!
—————-

Some of you are clearly strung a little too tight if you are taking that comment as anything other than humorous.  Next time just wear a t-shirt that says FUCK OFF GUYS and save everybody some angst?

I’m not suggesting you don’t try to educate the ill informed and the socially awkward, but please don’t jump my shit for being Captain Obvious and noting that human nature is going to trump your desires, however well intentioned.

Because, at the end of the day, that guy in the elevator didn’t have a choice.  The concept of Free Will is dead. .  Here’s one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse on the subject of ‘free will’:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodTNPp12rg

Enjoy.

Comment #145: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  03:31 PM

#143 “Men who corner women in elevators”—really, you know what men who corner women in elevators are thinking?

From personal experience? You mean you’re a man who corners women in elevators?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Beyond “Nice day,” or the like—although I could live with that—it’s really not necessary or appropriate for a strange man to approach a woman on an elevator. At all.

No less, “corner” a woman, or proposition her.

And creepy guy was aware that his cornering her at 4 am was “inappropriate”—said so himself. And yet continued with his come on.

Every time I get in an elevator—no less at 4 am—like every other woman I have to take into account that a man or men on it have me trapped in an enclosed space.

I also have to take into account that I could be done violence when walk up a deserted stairway, or into a parking lot late at night.

A man who starts his proposition with “I know this is inappropriate” is acknowledging that.

 

Comment #146: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  03:34 PM

Farron - Did the part about “going purely by the video transcript” come out in invisible hypertext?

Comment #147: Molly, NYC  on  07/05  at  03:34 PM

The Tim Channel, go back to kindergarten and learn some fucking logic skills and manners.

Comment #148: Farron  on  07/05  at  03:36 PM

Some of you are clearly strung a little too tight if you are taking that comment as anything other than humorous. 

You’re definitely making people laugh, but not the way you want to.

I’m not suggesting you don’t try to educate the ill informed and the socially awkward, but please don’t jump my shit for being Captain Obvious and noting that human nature is going to trump your desires, however well intentioned.

It’s human nature to point and laugh at morons. This may go against your desires, but there’s not a lot you can do about it, even if you ask people nicely to please let you get on with being a moron and not point it out.

Comment #149: junk science  on  07/05  at  03:37 PM

Molly, was I misreading your comment?

Comment #150: Farron  on  07/05  at  03:39 PM

#146 see my comment at #116 for why women have to take rape “jokes” seriously.

You have an entitled, tin ear—women have to live in fear every goddamn day of our lives, if we’re in vulnerable situations that include elevators or sleeping in our own beds, or in any number of other vulnerable areas, including nursing homes.

Go share your rape jokes with your har har buddies.

It ain’t realistic for them to be funny to us, dickhead.

Better hope kharma doesn’t employ irony and teach you first-hand why rape jokes aren’t funny.

Comment #151: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  03:41 PM

And it’s hilarious how many guys are making this about wanting to get laid. Creeping women out is unlikely to get you laid. Therefore, you should stop creeping women out if you want to increase your chances at getting laid. Passionately defending your inalienable right to creep women out shows that you’re actually interested in something besides getting laid, and evidently even more so.

Comment #152: junk science  on  07/05  at  03:46 PM

Because, at the end of the day, that guy in the elevator didn’t have a choice.

Is that your excuse for formulating shitty arguments? That you don’t have a choice?

Comment #153: Triplanetary  on  07/05  at  03:51 PM

This post and the circular arguments in comments do not make the skeptic community seem very appealing. Feminism is, always has been and always will be first with me. But as a growing skeptic, it would be nice to explore these ideas with like minded individuals without having to deal with the same bullshit arguments you hear at the local bar.

Comment #154: serious bette  on  07/05  at  04:01 PM

Only a moron and an asshole thinks that high-falutin’ philosophy on free will is an excuse for acting like a creep, or that trying to drag the conversation into a free will debate will take attention off of what an asshole he is.

Comment #155: grolby  on  07/05  at  04:05 PM

Richard Dawkins got it right by pointing out the unbelievable mountain that has been made out of this molehill of an incident. If anyone is acting privileged, it’s Rebbeca. Richard left out an important point, however…which is elevator guy failed to understand the simple rule dictating behavior in these situations. That rule is clearly outlined in this video:

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/tom-brady-snl-sexual-harassment-psa/h7nIkQjgII_oYNH7gQfUpA

If elevator guy looked more like George Clooney rather than a homely geek, Rebecca would be bragging about the hot guy who hit on her at the conference rather than bitching about the pathetic geek that made her uncomfortable in the elevator. Of course, women of her ilk never admit these types of things…women are just as shallow as men…they just pretend they are not.

Comment #156: jeff_lebowski  on  07/05  at  04:07 PM

I made it to the mid-30’s in comments and felt like my head would explode.  I guess I am in awe of the cluelessness expressed by some.  How must it feel to walk around anywhere, even at 4am, so confident that you are in no danger?  I can’t imagine.

What I can imagine is a man propositioning me at 4am alone in an elevator.  I am a bit claustrophobic in elevators, and in the middle of the night…that would have scared me.  Someone said above, some prick, that women need to be prepared to defend themselves, that they can’t have it both ways.

Well you better be careful what you wish for motherfucker.  I am prepared.  And there is NO saying that guy would have gotten out of that elevator without first spending 15 minutes on the ground, screaming, desperately trying to rip his eyeballs out of his head.

Comment #157: Daisy  on  07/05  at  04:08 PM

it would be nice to explore these ideas with like minded individuals without having to deal with the same bullshit arguments you hear at the local bar.

Many women think it would be nice to explore these ideas with like minded individuals without having to deal with being hit on like we would be at the local bar.  Why is this so fucking controversial?

Comment #158: Farron  on  07/05  at  04:09 PM

One thing I will say, Amanda you have one hell of a way with words.  I totaly want to get a tshirt now:

Anti-Feminism:  The men you attract with that crap don’t go down.  Why bother?

I am definitely getting it!

Comment #159: Daisy  on  07/05  at  04:13 PM

Richard Dawkins got it right by pointing out the unbelievable mountain that has been made out of this molehill of an incident.

It’s you defensive dumbfucks who won’t let this go. The woman did nothing but point out that the guy’s behavior made her uncomfortable and suggest that other guys not do the same. You guys completely lost your shit and started pissing and moaning about how unfair it is that you’re ugly and women don’t like you. If Dawkins didn’t think this should be an issue, he should go after the people who made it one.

Comment #160: junk science  on  07/05  at  04:15 PM

@159: It starts with the words “women want”.  The guy who complains that women, god forbid, are more interested in sex with attractive than unattractive men is a good start. 

By the way, it’s actually not true that women love it when attractive men are threatening to them.  That’s an excuse that creepy dudes create so that they have a “right” to punish women by creeping on them.

Comment #161: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  04:20 PM

Another asshole heard from: Jeff

Doesn’t matter how George Clooney a strange man harasser is at 4 am in an elevator—if you’re a woman, you’d avoid him like the plague, movies written by men to the contrary.

Ted Bundy was a very handsome devil, but that alone didn’t get him his victims. Even Ted was forced to put a fake cast on his leg and hobble on crutches, so he looked harmless, to ask strange women if they’d “help” him into his car.

A number of those women died for being helpful for someone who appeared harmless.

Toward the end of his sordid career of killing women, Ted could only find victims by breaking into a sorority house late at night and bludgeoning them in their sleep.

Even handsome, handsome Ted Bundy lacked willing victims.

Women aren’t fools (like Jeff): we’re aware when we could be in jeopardy, and we’re no longer silenced by entitled, tin ear assholes like you.

Comment #162: judybrowni  on  07/05  at  04:22 PM

For some reason I am having trouble cutting and pasting Mr. Lebowski’s stupid comment at 157.  He avers that if the guy who hit on Rebecca Watson was hot, she would be bragging about it instead of complaining.  He goes on to say that women are just as shallow as men, but that we just don’t admit it.

This is funny because only someone completely clueless would think that feminists have a problem with admitting that women like hot guys! Of course we like hot guys!  At least I do!  And in my single days, I outright rejected guys if I didn’t think they were good-looking.  Imagine that!  I guess I’m “shallow” that way.

But that has absolutely bupkus to do with the matter at hand—which is the conduct of the man in question.  And sorry, but if a man is cornering a woman in an enclosed space or failing to to abide by her clearly expressed wishes (like her wish not to be treated like an opportunity for easy sex), then it really is irrelevant what he looks like.  Intimidating and/or disrespectful behavior doesn’t somehow become palatable because the guy looks like George Clooney.  This meme however has a way of allowing men who engage in creepy behavior to whine about it if they are called on their creepiness.  “Waaaah!!!!  I could’ve gotten away with trying to override her wishes if only I were better looking!  It’s so unfair that this woman is calling me on my shit, because it’s only because I’m ugly!”

Comment #163: Laurie  on  07/05  at  04:25 PM

@161 junk science.  That’s so true!  All of this bitterness.  Oh, it George Clooney had approached her in the elevator then she would have fucked him.  Well, I wouldn’t.  He’s too damned old!  I would fuck Ryan Gosling though, if he asked nicely and was sitting next to me, rather than crowding into me in an enclosed space. 

Isn’t it so horrible that women can choose who to screw, and under which circumstances?  Where do we get off?  If we weren’t so uppity we’d fuck whoever asked!  There should be a law.

Comment #164: Daisy  on  07/05  at  04:25 PM

#157…  Seriously?

If elevator guy looked more like George Clooney rather than a homely geek, Rebecca would be bragging about the hot guy who hit on her at the conference rather than bitching about the pathetic geek that made her uncomfortable in the elevator.

Following this interesting derail just a bit, attractive people don’t have a free pass to be creepy, no.  More attractive people may have it a bit easier than others, but that doesn’t mean they have a free pass. 

Being less attractive may feel like an injustice, but it isn’t a personal affront.  Less attractive people world-wide are capable of getting laid by willing partners and forming relationships with people they find attractive, so let’s not bring out the sad violins over this.  There’s nothing about being less attractive that will be fixed by following a woman onto an elevator in the wee hours of the morning, unless you’re admitting that The Implication was definitely being utilized.

Comment #165: Eileen  on  07/05  at  04:27 PM

jdg30 @85

“Your response effectively prevents any criticism of any woman with a public presence.”

So then, we can count on hearing no more criticism of outspoken women from you, or any of your like-minded buddies, FOREVER—right?

Good.  Thank you.

Comment #166: Older  on  07/05  at  04:37 PM

Can I also just say how terribly disappointed I am in Dawkins?  It reminds me of so many disappointing interactions I’ve had with men I love but who just don’t get it—and worst of all, don’t care to get it. 

The most aggravating thing is that here you have a clearly bright guy who should be able to put himself in the position of the woman in the elevator.  And instead he ridicules her by arguing that her experience is minor compared to, say, the genital mutilation of women in other parts of the world.  WTF?  The fact that such a brilliant guy could make such a stupid argument is just incredibly frustrating.  It’s little short of willful pig-headedness based on privilege.

Comment #167: Laurie  on  07/05  at  04:43 PM

,,Denying the difference between flirting and cornering women in hopes that the implication of fear will grease the wheels for you getting your dick wet. ‘’

Wait, what?  How did we get from Watson’s story to this?

Comment #168: JMoore  on  07/05  at  04:49 PM

Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes:

My son has Aspergers, and it’s the easiest thing in the world for someone with black and white thinking to follow a simple rule:  DON’T PROPOSITION WOMEN IN ELEVATORS.  It makes them uncomfortable, and whether you agree with the reasoning or not, if you proposition them in elevators, you’re an asshole.  Don’t be an asshole.
One more thing:  she said she was tired and going to bed.  He asked her to come to his room for coffee.
Again, pretend rape is not an option.  Pretend sex wasn’t even on the table.  HOW IS IT NOT RUDE TO ASK A SLEEPY PERSON WHO IS ON HER WAY TO BED TO AVOID HER BED AND DRINK BEVERAGES THAT WILL KEEP HER AWAKE?

Just beautiful. Simple and elegant. I don’t know what’s so hard about that either.

Comment #169: Theresa  on  07/05  at  04:50 PM

Re: judibrowni @ 140

“And that ended that.” (“That” being harassment by way of bra-strap-snapping.)

I wonder how permanently effective the admonition was. Not in terms of the specifics, but in terms of actually stopping those boys, as they became men, from acting out their sense of entitlement as men to women’s bodies. It seems to me that the sort of argument from authority approach that says “don’t do this or else” can be effective as a short term treatment more than a long term cure.

Comment #170: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  04:51 PM

#169 - Watson’s story was imbued with that from the beginning.  It’s 4 AM, you’re getting on an elevator, alone, to go up to your hotel room.  Someone chooses that moment to proposition you.  If that guy didn’t intend to invoke a fear of rape he should know from now on that one is implicit in that situation, and so should you.

Comment #171: Eileen  on  07/05  at  04:55 PM

#172- No, there’s a difference between inference and implication.  Propositioning someone is not the same thing as threatening to rape someone.  I’m not going to self-censor, just because someone might think I’m a rapist.  I’m not a rapist, and I’m willing to prove it, largely by not raping people. 

It’s unclear if Marcotte is trying to insinuate that EG was hoping to use fear to get sex or that all men are willing to use fear to get sex (the sentence was a mess), but there’s a hell of a lot of projection going on and none of it adds up to an argument.

Comment #172: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:01 PM

Triplanetary:

And second, I’m afraid that the sex-having status of any given “geeky” man is not the feminist community’s problem.

Also awesomely pithy.  Thanks.

Comment #173: Theresa  on  07/05  at  05:03 PM

Wow, JMoore.  “I’m not going to self-censor, just because someone might think I’m a rapist.”

If I’m making someone uncomfortable, if I’m frightening or terrifying her, too bad!  I know I’m not a rapist so I am entitled to be a pushy, entitled, obnoxious jerk.

Comment #174: Nutella  on  07/05  at  05:07 PM

So the difference between inference and implication is what?  That what the woman in the elevator infers from the circumstances is just in her head and therefore doesn’t matter? 

And a man shouldn’t have to “self-censor” just because his actions might cause someone else fear or discomfort?  Why is that okay???  And why shouldn’t a decent man be expected to consider how his actions might be construed by someoen else?

This isn’t just a gender thing by the way.  For example, when I am pulled over by the police (which happens embarrassingly often), I make it a point to communicate in various ways that I am not a threat, by keeping my hands on the steering wheel, by refraining from any sudden movements, from avoiding a belligerent tone, etc.  Even though I know I’m not a threat, I understand that the police officer who doesn’t know me has no way of knowing whether I’m a threat or not.  This is common sense.  It staggers me how many men are indignant at the thought that others can’t automatically tell just by looking at them that they are decent and harmless.  Privilege indeed!

Comment #175: Laurie  on  07/05  at  05:08 PM

#175 -

Where did I say that I was entitled to be a pushy, entitled, obnoxious jerk?  Is propositioning necessarily pushy, entitled, and/or obnoxious?  If so, why?

Comment #176: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:09 PM

Ah, the “la la la I can’t hear you” method of defending the right to retain coercive techniques to get laid.  Nice.

Comment #177: Eileen  on  07/05  at  05:10 PM

#176 -

I’ll assume the first question is rhetorical, since the words have opposite meanings.  Second sentence:  matter to whom?  Everyone has different triggers. 

And how should I know that any given action will cause fear or discomfort?  How can I know? 

If I am propositioning someone, obviously I do care how my actions will be construed by someone else.  That’s the point. 

Your last comparison is a false analogy.  Police have to deal with dangerous people all the time.  That’s their job.  What does that have to do with courting/flirting/propositioning?

Comment #178: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:15 PM

Holy shit, do we need to get rape statistics in here?  Or does JMoore think that rape is an imaginary construct that women use to control and torment men? 

What… police have to deal with dangerous people all the time, but women never get raped on elevators?  Tell me another one.

Comment #179: Eileen  on  07/05  at  05:19 PM

And how should I know that any given action will cause fear or discomfort?  How can I know?

You can know it when a hundred and 50 women on the internet take time out of their busy days to tell you so.

Idiot.

Comment #180: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  05:19 PM

@JMoore: Defending people who are threatening rape is pushy, entitled, and/or obnoxious.  Using false analogies and downplaying the threat of violence is also pushy, entitled, and/or obnoxious.

This isn’t difficult.  There was a threat of violence in the man’s actions—he cornered her in a small space and explicitly disregarded her preferences. 

The men defending him are defending a man’s right to threaten violence to women.  I don’t find that admirable.

Comment #181: Punditus Maximus  on  07/05  at  05:20 PM

#178 -

Are you addressing me?  No, I reserve no right to use coercive techniques to get laid.  I object to random accusations of using coercive techniques to get laid, coming from people with zero evidence.

Comment #182: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:20 PM

Look, JMoore, you clearly have a problem, so let me spell this out for you.  The time to make a connection, or not, was before your potential partner left the bar/coffee shop/social area.  If you wait until the potential partner is alone, cornering him or her, you become a threat and it is reasonable for your potential partner to respond to you in that way.  If a connection wasn’t made during the social time you aren’t going to make it later, you’re just going to scare people.  Know that, OK?

Nobody needs you to prove you aren’t a rapist, but you could maybe work a little harder on being a decent person.

Comment #183: Eileen  on  07/05  at  05:23 PM

So the first part of Jen McCreight’s post here is kind of interesting. Apparently, at Mensa conventions people walk around with stickers on their nametags that indicate their comfort with physical approaches. It’s not quite analogous to the issues at play here, since the elevator dude didn’t force himself on Ms. Watson and the issue had more to do with location and context. Still, I wonder if there isn’t something useful to be gleaned.

Maybe there’s a much simpler “red light, green light” sort of system that people can use to indicate their general approachability. Red means “leave me alone right now,” green means “approach if you have something to say.”

It’s uncomfortable to suggest that the people who are being accosted take responsibility for protecting themselves since they’re not in the wrong. It’s much more important that people—men, mostly—come to the realization that there is no presumption of availability or accessibility when it comes to interacting with women. But, in the mean time, while lots of dudes out there still don’t get it, a simple and unambiguous way of preemptively saying “leave me alone” might help to mitigate the unpleasantness foisted on some women.

Comment #184: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  05:24 PM

Any man needs to know without being explicitly told what is and is not acceptable behavior. That shouldn’t be a controversial position.

Ouch.

No, sometimes they need to be explicitly told.  Is holding a door open for a woman acceptable behavious?  What about referring to them as “ladies”?

In a situation with changing social mores - and mores differing from person to person no less - sometimes you do need to make it explicit.  Women do need to tell men “It is not acceptable to proposition in elevators”.  Explicitly.

The flip-side of that, of course, is that men need to listen and understand why.

Comment #185: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  05:28 PM

#184 -

Perhaps it’s because I’m a decent person, Eileen, that I have a hard time swallowing this apparent need to prove my innocence. 

But, since you’ve managed to (willfully?) misconstruct my questions as somehow denying the existence of rape, I think we’re done.

Comment #186: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:29 PM

@Punditus Maximus

One straw man after another, none of them bearing the slightest resemblance either to Watson’s story or anything I’ve written.  It’s difficult to understand your position when you insist on making everything up.

Comment #187: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:30 PM

How much does it not surprise me that JMoore thinks he gets to dismiss me when he’s done talking?

Comment #188: Eileen  on  07/05  at  05:30 PM

#181 -

Wow, a whole 150 people?  On the internet? 

I’m convinced.

Comment #189: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:32 PM

To no one in particular: 

Why should I engage dishonest people who put words in my mouth?  It doesn’t take a sense of male entitlement to want to avoid dishonest people.

Comment #190: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:33 PM

Where did I say that I was entitled to be a pushy,

“Propositioning someone is not the same thing as threatening to rape someone.”

In an isolated elevator.
At night.
Alone.

entitled,

“I’m not a rapist”

obnoxious jerk?  Is propositioning necessarily pushy, entitled, and/or obnoxious?  If so, why?

Comment #177: JMoore

“I’m not going to self-censor, just because someone might think”

Perhaps you should write less and think more.
If you expect any of us to believe you are *not* a pushy, entitled and/or obnoxious boor, perhaps you shouldn’t act like one.

Comment #191: cynickal  on  07/05  at  05:36 PM

JMoore.  See above.

Propositioning women in elevators is an asshole move, regardless of your intentions.  1000s of posts have now been written explaining why women find this behavior creepy and annoying at best.  Defending elevator propositions after said thousands of explanations, analogies, and links is also an asshole move.

Don’t be an asshole.

Comment #192: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  05:37 PM

@189—honestly, I can’t figure out why he thinks he needs to prove his innocence, given that, to my knowledge, no one accused him of cornering a woman in an elevator and harassing her.  But maybe he knows something we don’t. 

For everyone else, here’s a hint—if you want to hit on a woman, start the conversation in a public place, don’t corner her or block her exit, and don’t wait until she’s alone and isolated in a tiny room with no windows to suddenly proposition her.  If you do proposition her on an elevator, don’t be surprised when she thinks you’re a scary creep. 

Really, if you’re interested, attend a self-defense class taught for women.  Once you hear the list of stuff we’re supposed to watch our for, you’ll have some empathy.  Women are taught that elevators are dangerous places, and I have been told that if the only person on an elevator is a man unknown to me, I should wait for the next elevator.  (Of course, stairwells are equally bad.)

Comment #193: Kit-Kat  on  07/05  at  05:37 PM

Why should I engage dishonest people who put words in my mouth?  It doesn’t take a sense of male entitlement to want to avoid dishonest people.

Comment #191: JMoore

Is that a flounce?

Comment #194: cynickal  on  07/05  at  05:37 PM

It’s an outrage when people of the skeptical community are skeptical of the level of concern to show for Rebecca.  Whocouldanode?

And all this from a girl who participated in a Skepchick pinup calendar promotion a few years ago when exploiting her gender (for a good cause, but come on, let’s be consistent here) wasn’t a problem for her?:

In 2006, Rebecca released The Skepchick Calendar, a pin-up calendar featuring pictures of skeptical women for every month. Proceeds provided the attendance fee for several female applicants to attend the James Randi Educational Foundation’s The Amaz!ng Meeting.[10] New calendars have been made in subsequent years, including Skepdude Calendars since 2007.[11]

That’s from wiki. I’m also reading in wiki that Rebecca recently divorced her husband.  She’s probably not in a good mood about men right now.  That’s natural.  The guy in the elevator probably didn’t do the proper recon before making his advance or he’d have wooed her with some amazing sleight-of-hand in the elevator instead of an offer of coffee and discussion.  And guys, she’s 32, though she looks and acts like someone much younger.  My wife is riding shotgun beside me on this one.  I even made her watch Rebecca’s video (my wife is a champ!).  She thought the whole thing sounded like some teeny bopper bullshit too FWIW.

Enjoy.

Enjoy.

Comment #195: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  05:37 PM

#195 -

Was that homophobic?

Comment #196: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:41 PM

Tim is right! How dare Rebecca Watson decide how to behave sexually and when?

Comment #197: catfood  on  07/05  at  05:42 PM

#192 -

The only thing I have acted like is someone who won’t accept extraordinary claims of sexual conspiracies without evidence.

Comment #198: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:43 PM

Re: JMoore @ 190

Unless you have good reasons to think those people are either mistaken or lying about their own life experiences, then 150 testimonials should be ample evidence that there are people who would be made uncomfortable by a stranger propositioning them in a closed, moving elevator.

Comment #199: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  05:43 PM

Was that homophobic?

Comment #197: JMoore

Coming from a bi-man, you decide.  Though the way you’ve managed to ignore every point made here by every person, I’ll assume you’ll conclude it was regardless of any evidence.

But nice red herring you have there.  You might want to ice it before it starts to stink too badly.

Comment #200: cynickal  on  07/05  at  05:45 PM

Wow, a whole 150 people?  On the internet?

I wonder if 150 women, confronting JMoore in the meatspace (say, in an elevator in the middle of the night) might have a stronger impression on him?

OK, fine. I guess nothing is so unless every person in the entire world has taken the time to explicitly and individually tell it to JMoore. Seems a terribly inefficient way to run a world, but he clearly knows best, on account of the penis and testicles, dontchaknow.

 

 

Comment #201: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  05:46 PM

The only thing I have acted like is someone who won’t accept extraordinary claims of sexual conspiracies without evidence.

Comment #199: JMoore

What Eileen said:

Ah, the “la la la I can’t hear you” method of defending the right to retain coercive techniques to get laid.  Nice.

Comment #178: Eileen

Comment #202: cynickal  on  07/05  at  05:47 PM

#193 -

Obviously, it was socially inept.  Alcohol may have been a factor.  Since there was no assault, I’m inclined to see EG as a douche or a dweeb, but not as a danger.  Even so:  I acknowledge that my assessment of EG is based on very little. 

What amazes me is that so many people are so willing to make enormous assumptions about EG without much to go on.  I don’t think people are really putting themselves in Watson’s shoes, I think they’re transposing their own memories into that elevator.

Comment #203: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:47 PM

Re: Tim @ 196

“let’s be consistent here”

What? Consistency isn’t about doing the same thing or behaving in the same way regardless of context. Or do you wear your sunglasses at night?

Comment #204: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  05:47 PM

Made it all the way to 196 before someone flat out said, “Rebecca is a man-hating DIVORCED slutbitchwhore who HAD IT FUCKING COMING.”

Comment #205: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  05:47 PM

#203 -

In that case, I look forward to seeing your evidence.

Comment #206: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:48 PM

Aw, JMoore, you have acted like LOTS of other things in this thread. Give yourself some credit!

Comment #207: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  05:50 PM

What on earth does posing for a calendar have to do with not wanting men to be self-centered, threatening creeps?  What does being recently divorced have to do with not wanting to be hit on in a threatening and disrespectful way?  What on earth does being thirty-two but looking and acting much younger have to do with not wanting to be made to feel threatened?

What about this aren’t you getting?  Here’s a fact: many women have either themselves or have friends who have been raped, almost always by men.  Here’s another fact: men who rape women do not walk around with the word “RAPIST” tattooed on their foreheads.  Thus women have to pay attention to other cues: is this man willing to approach me publicly, i.e. in front of witnesses?  Is this man respecting the boundaries I have established, i.e. paying attention when I discuss not enjoying being hit on?  Is this man aware of the way his conduct might be interpreted and does he care, i.e. does he have basic empathy?

Women who pose for calendars have to make these basic calculations on a daily basis.  Women who have recently been divorced have to make these basic calculations on a daily basis.  Women who are thirty-two but look and act much younger have to make these calculations on a daily basis.  None of these qualities affect the issues in play.

So Watson is doing a public service for men: don’t want to women to think you might be a creepy rapist?  Don’t act in ways that a creepy rapist would act.  Problem solved.  Want to act in the ways that a creepy rapist would act without regard for how it makes the women in those situations feel?  Admit that and don’t bitch and moan when a woman says it’s a creepy thing to do.

By the way, Tim?  “Girls” who are 32 are usually referred to as “women.”

Comment #208: EG01  on  07/05  at  05:50 PM

#201 -

Coming from a fellow bi-man, you’re entitled. 

I read the thread before posting.  I can’t respond to every point (and don’t need to), but the question I began with remains unanswered, and seems to have attracted some of the dumbest people on the internet.

Comment #209: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:51 PM

Tim Channel, whoa.  Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!

Comment #210: Eileen  on  07/05  at  05:52 PM

#202 -

So, when 150 people on Stormfront convince themselves of their racial superiority, you’ll be on board, yes?

Comment #211: JMoore  on  07/05  at  05:52 PM

I’m glad that Myers openly disagreed with Dawkins and explained to him what he was missing after Dawkins complained that no one was telling him exactly what was wrong with propositioning a woman in an elevator. I don’t expect Dawkins to have read any of the responses he got from the commenters, but maybe he was willing to pay attention to Myers. At least he sulkily admitted that the existence of FGM in Muslim countries doesn’t invalidate the concerns of American women before he switched to denying that hitting on women in elevators is a problem at all.

Comment #212: junk science  on  07/05  at  05:55 PM

Re: JMoore @ 212

There’s a bit of a difference in content between “X makes me uncomfortable, and here’s why” and “white people are best, and here’s why”

I mean, if 150 people on Stormfront told me that they had feelings of racial superiority then I’d certainly believe that there are white supremacists out there.

Comment #213: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/05  at  05:56 PM

I don’t think people are really putting themselves in Watson’s shoes, I think they’re transposing their own memories into that elevator.

Yeah, doesn’t it suck when people with experience in things use that experience to understand similar things?  And when those people with experience are lady-people whose experience doesn’t match what men think it should?  And when those lady-people actually have the audacity to expect the men to listen to and respect that experience?

That is so unfair.

Comment #214: EG01  on  07/05  at  05:56 PM

Calling the stick rule on The Tim Channel.

About the Mensa red/yellow/green thing: that doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is not about socially clueless people, it’s about entitled assholes. Entitled assholes don’t care about your ‘looking for hookup’ status or your desires. I hang out on kink chatrooms, where the fact you’re looking for sex is pretty much a given, and the number of guys who think ‘I’m into casual hookups’ means ‘I’m public property that will fuck anyone who so much as ask’ is depressing. Just because someone wants to have NSA sex doesn’t mean YOU personally are entitled to fuck her. That’s fucking ‘Common Sense 101’.

These guys don’t suddenly stop being creepy even in a setting where your ‘looking or not’ status and exactly what you’re into is public knowledge.

Comment #215: BlackBloc  on  07/05  at  05:57 PM

In that case, I look forward to seeing your evidence.

Comment #207: JMoore

Ah, the “la la la I can’t hear you” method of defending the right to retain coercive techniques to get laid.  Nice.

Comment #178: Eileen

Comment #216: cynickal  on  07/05  at  05:58 PM

So, when 150 people on Stormfront convince themselves of their racial superiority, you’ll be on board, yes?

Yes, because that is the exact same thing. Saying, “hey, we who have been raped can tell you, rapists often do things xy and z, so if you do those things, we might think you’re a rapist” is exactly the same as “convincing [yourself] of [your] racial superiority.”

Now if you’ll excuse me, my eyes have rolled clear out of my head and will need to be surgically reattached, so I’m off to the urgent care clinic.

Comment #217: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  05:59 PM

I read the thread before posting.  I can’t respond to every point (and don’t need to), but the question I began with remains unanswered, and seems to have attracted some of the dumbest people on the internet.

Comment #210: JMoore

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_N6APHtFPWNc/TR3c4CqfxPI/AAAAAAAAB80/UbDTmPhSA8I/s1600/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg

(I need a

macro for these denialist arguments)

Comment #218: cynickal  on  07/05  at  06:00 PM

Re:  The Tim Channel #196

I think saying, “My wife agrees with me!” should be placed on the anti-feminist troll bingo card. Hey, if your wife agrees with you, well, I guess the rest of us don’t have a leg to stand on!  As long as one woman anywhere disagrees with a feminist position, then that feminist position is completely invalidated!  (Hmmm . . . if that’s how it works, I wonder if the existence of feminist men who agree with Amanda would invalidate the opinions of The Tim Channel and JMoore.  See, two can play at this game!)

Also, the thing about Skepchick’s pin-up calendar and divorce are relevant how exactly?  Is Tim parodying himself?

Comment #219: Laurie  on  07/05  at  06:01 PM

#214:

In that case, I should modify my behavior just in case I run into one of those 150 people?

Comment #220: JMoore  on  07/05  at  06:01 PM

Stupid HTML code!  I didn’t use the < thingy!

Comment #221: cynickal  on  07/05  at  06:01 PM

Speaking of George Clooney…imagine if he had just given a talk about not wanting to take photographs with fans, because he just can’t get to everyone who asks and he doesn’t want to leave any fans out.  Then he spends two or three hours chatting in the reception area to all the audience for the talk.  Then he says he’s tired, and heads up to his hotel room.  Then someone from the audience, who has heard the talk and had the opportunity to chat with him in the reception area, gets into the elevator with him and asks to take a picture with him.  Would he have reason to believe that he has just potentially encountered a stalker fan who might be dangerous to him?  I submit that he would have every reason to believe that, and I think a lot of people would say the same.

Comment #222: BetsyD  on  07/05  at  06:02 PM

#215 -

The problem being that they might not be similar at all, so we wind up talking about someone’s issues as if this situation was exactly the same.

Comment #223: JMoore  on  07/05  at  06:02 PM

Made it all the way to 196 before someone flat out said, “Rebecca is a man-hating DIVORCED slutbitchwhore who HAD IT FUCKING COMING.”
—————————-

Talk about projection.  I forgot I was in one of my favorite feminist forums and not in a realty based one.  I apologize for that, but I won’t apologize for all the crap you embellished into my post.  That is asshattery at a disgusting level.  I’m used to creationist quote mining, but this is something I hadn’t expected.

My argument stems from the forces of natural selection and the innate (and often inappropriate) behavior that stems from the flow of hormones into a properly functioning male.  The guys pursue the girls.  I don’t think that’s optional, I think it’s built-in.  There’s also the issue of free will not being exactly as free as people normally think it is.  The skeptical and atheist community are mostly aligned on the idea that there is NO SUCH THING AS FREE WILL.  So whatever the elevator guy did/didn’t do/thought about doing/wanted to do, it doesn’t matter.  He did what he had to do.  I’m not making this shit up people.

I’m also not suggesting that she was ‘asking’ for it, though it’s not off bounds to suggest that the trauma of a recent divorce might be coloring her judgement to a degree.  That’s also human nature, and it’s certainly not off bounds.  There’s no need to go into ‘rape victim protection mode’ since there wasn’t (last time I checked) any actual RAPE involved.

The last post had double enjoyment, so I’ll leave this one blank.

Comment #224: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  06:03 PM

Wow, JMoore. 

People aren’t making enormous assumptions about Elevator Guy.  They are explaining in minute detail, with anecdote, analogy, and links, why cornering a woman in an elevator at 4 AM is fucking creepy.

You keep defending this behavior, because you refuse to listen to the other point of view at all.  It’s not that feminists are refusing to see that this guy may have been awkward—although he was self-aware enough to start off his proposition with a disclaimer—we’re saying that’s not a good enough excuse.

And then in painful detail, we relate the world of sexism we live in everyday that makes elevator propositions unacceptable.

Instead of saying “oh, I didn’t realize that, because I’ve never been in that position.  Sorry.  Won’t do it again.” you and other assholes keep insisting that women aren’t making sane assessments, aren’t really feeling threatened in a threatening situation, and should feel pity for the asshole and not his victim. 

You even go as far as to insist since you aren’t actually a rapist, you have the right to treat women like they exist for your sexual pleasure and they should not be scared of you!  Because even though you refuse to respect their opinions, feelings, or limits, they should respect yours.

Seriously.  Don’t. Be. An. Asshole.


Last time.  Re-read, and don’t be

Comment #225: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  06:04 PM

#218 -

Except that wasn’t your argument, as you stated it.  I was supposed to be overawed by this mass of humanity, which was evidence of ... something.

Comment #226: JMoore  on  07/05  at  06:04 PM

Like several Pharyngula commenters pointed out, the guy on the elevator is himself a very minor part of the problem. From the number of guys panicking that now they’ll never get laid to Richard Dawkins suggesting that American feminists don’t care about Muslim women having their genitals mutilated, it’s really eye-opening to see so many men completely blow up at even the mildest criticism of their behavior or the slightest suggestion that they’re making women uncomfortable. They’re not seeing this as part of the process of gradual change but as a personal attack on them.

I’m sure this is true. That said, it’s possible for advocacy to change behavior on the macro scale while some people on the micro scale act like resentful jerks.

Again, isn’t that what has happened with sexual harassment? A large number of guys eventually got the memo that they shouldn’t act this way towards women in the workplace; a smaller number of guys whine about political correctness and a rights violation. Overall, the advocacy campaign has improved things.

Comment #227: Dilan Esper  on  07/05  at  06:05 PM

In that case, I should modify my behavior just in case I run into one of those 150 people?

Either you lack even the most intuitive understanding of statistical sampling, or you’re fundamentally dishonest and are attempting to distract from your lack of a real argument. I honestly don’t know which.

Comment #228: junk science  on  07/05  at  06:05 PM

#226 -

I was responding to this sentence in the original post: 

“Denying the difference between flirting and cornering women in hopes that the implication of fear will grease the wheels for you getting your dick wet.”

She even repeats it: 

“In sum, men who corner women know what they’re doing. And yes, they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid.”

I think this is unwarranted.  And that makes me an asshole?

Comment #229: JMoore  on  07/05  at  06:07 PM

Dilan Esper, I agree that we should keep on keeping on.

Comment #230: junk science  on  07/05  at  06:07 PM

So men shouldn’t put women in scary situations to get that “yes” a little easier?  And that’s unfiar because….?

Comment #231: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  06:08 PM

Wait, wait, wait, wait: 

“You even go as far as to insist since you aren’t actually a rapist, you have the right to treat women like they exist for your sexual pleasure ...”

Seriously:  what the fuck are you people smoking?

Comment #232: JMoore  on  07/05  at  06:08 PM

Anyway, JMoore is boring me.  There is only so many times a reasonable person can explain how not to be a dick to a guy whose sole response is “LALALALALALALALALICAN’THEARYOU!!!!!”
You can lead a horse to water…

Comment #233: cynickal  on  07/05  at  06:08 PM

In that case, I should modify my behavior just in case I run into one of those 150 people?

Modify your behavior or don’t. If you want to be a raging jackass (and it seems like you do) then that’s your total right as a member of a free people. However, being that side effect disclaimers are our society’s favorite thing ever, I am obliged to include the following (read in a super-fast quiet voice if desired):

The side effects of being a raging jackass may include, but are not limited to:

• being called a raging jackass
• having mace sprayed into your eyes
• getting a kneecap in the testicles
• never getting laid again
• having folks talk behind your back, if not to your face, about how you are a raging jackass
• did i mention never getting laid again?
• no longer being permitted to complain about never getting laid again.

Comment #234: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  06:08 PM

With all the attention I’m getting, I’m thinking of publishing a cheesecake calendar of myself and setting up a paypal link.  I’ll promote it as far and wide as I can.  I’ll give all the money to charity.

The only thing I’ll get out of it is the ability to act pissed off when all the girls whistle and cat-call at me when I walk down the street.  It’ll totally be worth it.

Enjoy.

Comment #235: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  06:09 PM

If there are men around here who don’t know what women are constantly told, re rape and elevators:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/tips/how-serial-rapists-target-victims-2
(Link contains graphic description of serial rapist targeting women in elevators.  Advice:  don’t get into an elevator alone with a man)

http://www.womenshooters.com/wfn/preventrape.html
Avoid entry into elevators when they are occupied by a stranger. Stand by the control panel so you can sound the alarm button if necessary. If a suspicious-acting person follows you into the eleva tor, get out and wait for the next one.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-420204.html
If someone is following
behind you on a street or in a garage or with you in an elevator or
stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a question , like ‘What time
is it’, or make general small talk: ‘I can’t believe it is so cold out here,
‘We’re in for a bad winter.’ Now you’ve seen their face and could identify
them in a line-up; you lose appeal as a target.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/03/08/how_to_avoid_rape_an_article_to_read__amp_pass_on_to_every_woman_you_know.htm
Avoid stairwells and rarely used hallways.

Don’t get into an elevator alone with anyone who seems suspicious. Trust your instincts on this.

When on an elevator, stand near the control panel so you can push the alarm button in an emergency.

When waiting for an elevator, stand away from the door so you can’t be pulled on

I only had to look for a second to find dozens of sites with advice like this.  Women have received this advice their whole lives, and the other side of that is that when they are raped they are asked why they did something so stupid as to get onto an elevator late at night with a strange man. 

If you’ve never had to deal with this, LUCKY YOU, but DO NOT PRETEND that it does not exist just because you don’t have to worry about it.  That makes you an ASSHOLE.  Worse, your feigned ignorance definitely makes you a threat.

 

Comment #236: Eileen  on  07/05  at  06:09 PM

#232

No, it’s unfair to assume that a man who has made a woman uncomfortable:

1) intended to do so
2) is using her discomfort to have sex with her

I think that’s nuts.

Comment #237: JMoore  on  07/05  at  06:10 PM

J, cornering women doesn’t happen in a vacuum.  Men who do it may not be rapists, but they let the knowledge that some are rapists linger in the air for women to consider when composing their responses.  That you don’t believe this either indicates that you’re being disingenuous (sadly a common problem) or that you don’t believe women and their experiences.  Either way, major league assholery. But if you’re not going to believe women, why not believe the guys who write “It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia”?  They have penises and know all about The Implication strategy of hitting on women.

Comment #238: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  06:11 PM

Dawkins using Islamaphobia (“Dear Muslima” wtf) to cover his misogyny is pretty unsurprising, given the blogpost he made a while ago about supporting Christian missionaries in Africa to counter the evil tide of Muslims sweeping the continent.  And this despite the fact that the Christian right is behind the state-sponsored murder of homosexuals in Uganda.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/05/unmitigated-evil.html

Comment #239: clever screen name  on  07/05  at  06:11 PM

Evo-psych BS at #225

Men just can’t HELP being assholes.  Men just can’t HELP demanding sex from strangers.  It’s natural selection!!

Stupid women just don’t understand science. Or free will.  Or anything.

Or so Tim mansplains.

Comment #240: Nutella  on  07/05  at  06:13 PM

I will say that The Implication does work, but it probably has a lower success rate of dick wetting than being a charming guy who has women wanting to sleep with him.  So I suspect defenders like J of The Implication perhaps have other reasons for wanting the world to be safe for creepy dudes.  Certainly it’s my experience that a lot of men are creepy to you knowing you’re going to say no. Being creepy is its own reward for some of them, and others enjoy getting shot down because it confirms their suspicion that Women Are Shallow Bitches.  Which is somehow “proved” by women not wanting to fuck creeps.

Comment #241: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  06:15 PM

Well, it’s obvious that JMoore and The Tim Channel are just getting their jollies by obvious trolling.  The Tim Channel is just boring me at this point.  But I am kind of fascinated by JMoore’s contention that he has no obligation to consider whether his behavior might cause someone discomfort or anxiety if HE thinks that discomfort or anxiety is misplaced.

Anecdote time:  I was recently walking with my husband in a fairly deserted area at night.  As we were walking, we started gaining on a lone woman walking ahead of us on the empty street.  I kept saying to my husband, “Let’s slow down.  Let’s cross to the other side of the street.  We don’t want to scare this poor woman.”  To me, it was obvious that it would be anxiety-inducing to have two people walking up behind you at a quick pace when you are alone in a deserted area at night.  My husband, on the other hand, was all like, “What are you talking about?  Why would we have to cross the street?” 

Of course, the difference between JMoore and my husband is that my husband, upon reflection, was able to view the situation from the woman’s point of view and see how our behavior might cause her anxiety.  Now, of course, maybe the woman was kung-fu master who was packing heat and had no anxiety at all.  But the point is that we could make a reasonable estimate of what a woman in her position was likely to feel and modify our behavior out of courtesy and consideration.  This isn’t hard. Unless you are a stupid troll.

Comment #242: Laurie  on  07/05  at  06:18 PM

The problem being that they might not be similar at all, so we wind up talking about someone’s issues as if this situation was exactly the same.

Except that people who have experience in these kinds of situations keep telling you that it is.  That is the point I am making.  You can keep claiming that since not every woman in the world has told you that, it ain’t necessarily so, and keep pretending that the women who have told you that it is are all weirdo statistical outliers, but that doesn’t actually make your claims true.

My argument stems from the forces of natural selection and the innate (and often inappropriate) behavior that stems from the flow of hormones into a properly functioning male.  The guys pursue the girls.  I don’t think that’s optional, I think it’s built-in.

Oh, for Christ’s sake.  Evo-psych?  Seriously? 

It’s true, when men are flooded with hormones they have no control over themselves!  (Except when they’re in a well-lit situation where they might have approached someone in public, in front of witnesses, and had a conversation if that was what they wanted—clearly, then they are masters of their behavior.  It’s only when in a small, windowless room with someone who has made it clear that she does not welcome advances that those hormones swing into action.)  That is exactly why human behavior has not changed at all throughout history.  It’s the fault of those dastardly hormones.

Oh—wait.  Huh.  Human behavior—even that of men—has changed over time.  How about that.

Here’s a thought: if men want to “pursue” women, a construction I don’t like, because the implication is that the women are fleeing, and if the women are fleeing, you are doing something seriously wrong, then perhaps the men should pay attention to what it is the women want them to do.  You catch more flies with honey, after all.

Comment #243: EG01  on  07/05  at  06:19 PM

I think this is unwarranted.  And that makes me an asshole?

Pretty much, yes.

Comment #244: gwangung  on  07/05  at  06:21 PM

#204 @JMoore:

Since there was no assault, I’m inclined to see EG as a douche or a dweeb, but not as a danger.

R. Watson knows that now. She couldn’t possibly have known that then. Why is sparing EG’s feelings, or yours, worth risking her health and safety? Even on the statistically high probability that she won’t be attacked that time?

That’s exactly the damn point! The chance of rape or other assault, even though it’s low in any one instance, is nonzero, and there’s simply no upside for R. Watson in that man’s behavior and demeanor. So yes, it’s scary to some degree, and it’s not for you and me to judge that degree.

Someone else pointed out the fact that EG didn’t approach RW in the public setting immediately beforehand. That would be an additional warning sign! Someone who’s simply shy about being shot down in public would do that, but so would a rapist. She can’t tell which is which, so she’s perceiving a risk that has (stay with me here) no actual benefit because she wasn’t trying to get picked up by that guy.

 

Comment #245: catfood  on  07/05  at  06:22 PM

EG01, that’s not true about the honey. I checked.
http://capacioushandbag.blogspot.com/2006/07/condimentary-preferences-of-drosophila.html

Comment #246: MissPrism  on  07/05  at  06:23 PM

I don’t think you guys realize that a lot of men believe all that rom-com “this is the one” bullshit as much as a lot of women do. The difference is that men are expected to initiate contact, which leads to some awkward situations all around.

Example: Let’s say I’m the now-infamous guy in the elevator. Just to be clear—I’m not. I found his proposition as clumsy as everyone else, precisely because I can see how a woman would find it threatening. But I have to put myself in his shoes before I convict him of being a would-be rapist.

From what I understand, a group of people had been drinking until 4 A.M. If there are drunken time-zones, 4 A.M. is the international date line. Everything before 4 A.M. (all times approximate) officially belongs to last night. This is about the time you’re sneaking out on a one-night-stand, making plans for the next day, or passing out and leaving the whole night behind.

I’ve seen Watson, and she’s a very attractive, intelligent young woman. I don’t mean “young woman” to be condescending, I just bring it up because there’s a pretty good chance that elevator dude was probably a young man. He probably also, like many young atheist dudes, doesn’t meet many scientifically-inclined atheist women. Statistically, there just aren’t many such women.

Bact to the elevator. Maybe he’s thinking, like an idiot—like a perfectly normal, stupid human being—“This is the one. This is my last chance. It’s 4 A.M., we’re in Ireland and she’s an American, I may never see her again.” And maybe not so much thinking:  “Maybe I can use my male privelege to intimidate her into having coffee with me, and then I can do whatever I want with her.” I guess which interpretation you believe, or whether you accept both possibilities, depends on whether you think men are simultaneously (a). capable of human decency and (b). susceptible to biological stupidity. 

My point is: cut us men some fucking slack. Please. I know that it’s harder to be a woman in our society, but we each face different challenges. One challenge for men, that I don’t see any women in this debate acknowledging, is that we’re supposed to find a balance between the x-games-playing pirate of the high seas/snowboarder that will take any risk to find that one, perfect love… and the tender poet that just knows—just instinctively knows—exactly what every woman wants in every situation.

Comment #247: JDub  on  07/05  at  06:23 PM

#232:

Still being an asshole.

If I’m being creepy and lots of people tell me that, then I should take the embarassment with good grace and alter my behavior. I am the problem not them.

Comment #248: gwangung  on  07/05  at  06:24 PM

Being creepy is its own reward for some of them, and others enjoy getting shot down because it confirms their suspicion that Women Are Shallow Bitches.

I think this has to be the case. Otherwise why use a strategy that has such a low success rate? Tim up there keeps trying to be cute by saying men are just horny and can’t help themselves, but in that case why do things that actively reduce your chances of getting laid? I really think being an asshole and having your asshole worldview confirmed is more important to a lot of men than actually getting laid.

Comment #249: junk science  on  07/05  at  06:24 PM

OK, assholes, just clear this up for me.

A woman who was invited to speak at a convention about how to include more women says that sexualizing them all them time is off-putting.  She then mentions that after a day of stating this, she was still propositioned in an elevator.  Not.  Welcoming.  So guys, if you want to welcome women, don’t do that.

Thousands of posts over the last three days clarifying why elevator propositions are scary/creepy/threatening.  Explanations of how women are told from girlhood by police/school/parents not to go alone in an elevator with a strange man.

Yeah, it’s a bit over the top most of the time, so most women go ahead and get on that elevator, though somewhere in the back of their minds they are evaluating that risk.

And we still get all these assholes insisting they have a right to proposition women wherever they feel like it, and not only do the women not have a right to be creeped out, they should take care to let the poor guy down gently.

WHY?  Why do WOMEN have to somehow be psychic rapist detectors and baby the feelings of guys who can’t be bothered to treat them with respect?  Why can’t you assholes just admit that elevator propositioning is creepy, whether you knew it before or not, whether you really believe it should be or not, AND JUST AGREE TO STOP DOING IT?

JMoore, specifically.  You just said you would never censor yourself because you know you’re not a rapist.  The implication is that if you’re scaring a woman by being creepy, that’s all HER fault, and you’re not going to modify your behavior to make sure you aren’t threatening to someone else.  Her feelings are immaterial in relation to your desire to behave in any way you want—you will not censor yourself!  Even something as simple as NOT PROPOSITIONING WOMEN IN ELEVATORS.

Because it’s really simple to see all the links and agree that elevators are not the safest places, and agree that censoring yourself from propositioning a woman for the 60 seconds she’s confined is not such a huge burden.

Instead, you’re still arguing for the right to be an asshole.

Comment #250: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  06:25 PM

My point is: cut us men some fucking slack.

Why? Shouldn’t we learn? Isn’t this a part of being a social animal, of learning what’s acceptable and what isn’t?

Comment #251: gwangung  on  07/05  at  06:25 PM

So JMoore’s first post is:

,,[sic]Denying the difference between flirting and cornering women in hopes that the implication of fear will grease the wheels for you getting your dick wet. ‘’[sic]

Wait, what?  How did we get from Watson’s story to this?

Comment #169: JMoore

Hmmm… “Denying the difference between flirting and cornering women” appears to be *exactly* what JMoore is doing.  A sane person who regularly has contat with this little thing we call “society” and all the learned habits and behaviors that come from interacting with it on a regular basis would find it logical that being propositioned late at night, in an isolated area after having talked for hours about how unacceptable it is to be propositioned late at night, in an isolated area.

Then there’s JMoore.  Who not only defends the tactic of isolating women late at night but absurdly clings to their denial of all evidence, links, and support but continues a one man campaign against actually bringing in any supporting evidence themselves.

Concern troll is obviously concerned.

Comment #252: cynickal  on  07/05  at  06:26 PM

@Tim.  Aww, need to throw a little tantrum because you’re not getting the right kind of attention?  Eh. Nevermind.  No one here cares.  Except maybe a few hero sockpuppets.  It’s likely most people are just reading a random sentence or two from your posts, like I am, to verify that you’re still not saying anything worth reading.

Comment #253: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  06:28 PM

@JMoore Perhaps you need to speak with a therapist.  Whatever it is you’re looking for isn’t here.

Comment #254: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  06:29 PM

My point is: cut us men some fucking slack. Please.

I am reeeeeeeeeallly curious about what kind of “fucking slack” I am supposed to cut you.

Am I supposed to not tell you when you are being (however unintentionally) intimidating?
Am I supposed to be suuuper duper nice and sugary-sweet while telling you to fucking back off?
Am I supposed to sleep with you, even though I don’t want to, because your life is so goddamn hard?

I’m only partly giving you a hard time for the fun of it. I don’t think men understand how vague statements like that come across. Rebecca did not have this guy arrested, she did not fight him off violently, she merely pointed out that he made a dick move. If that’s beyond the pale for these poor beleaguered rom-com addled dudes, then to borrow a dudely term, they must learn to sack the fuck up.

Comment #255: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  06:29 PM

JDub, I’m not going to cut men slack because they’re generally expected to make the first move.  I’ve approached men multiple times.  It’s really not that hard, and I speak as someone who is almost paralyzed with anxiety around someone she’s attracted to—my anxiety is my problem, not some objective measure of the difficulty of the situation.  Sometimes the gentlemen in question have been interested.  Sometimes they haven’t.  The latter case is always disappointing, but I managed to soldier on through.  If I made an overture that the gentleman later explained suggested that I might be a rapist or was in some way threatening, and said explanation was confirmed by a number of other young men, I would be very contrite, pay attention to what they had to say, and not do it again.

I would not expect the threatened gentlemen to feel sorry for me or to put themselves in my shoes.  I hardly think that women expecting to have our concerns taken seriously is akin to asking for “the x-games-playing pirate of the high seas/snowboarder that will take any risk to find that one, perfect love… and the tender poet that just knows—just instinctively knows—exactly what every woman wants in every situation.”

Comment #256: EG01  on  07/05  at  06:32 PM

Oh, Miss Prism, alas!  Science ruins all the best proverbs…

Comment #257: EG01  on  07/05  at  06:34 PM

JDub,

It should be perfectly fucking clear by now that propositioning a woman in an elevator IS ASSHOLE BEHAVIOR. 

You do NOT get slack for that.  Elevator Guy is Not The Victim.  Being told “no” also doesn’t make him a victim.  He started off his proposition with the acknowledgement that it was inappropriate, so he wasn’t some lovable, but desperately clueless puppy.  He was creepy!

Don’t do it.  It’s not that hard.  Fixing all of the Patriarchy is hard, but not propositioning women in elevators?  NOT HARD.  Easy way to make the world a nicer place for women.

Comment #258: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/05  at  06:36 PM

My point is: cut us men some fucking slack. Please.

Just to pile on…  If you really want some slack, DON’T BE THAT GUY!
Jeebus!  Is it that hard to figure out.

What you should be saying is “Man, I’m glad I never did anything like that,” or “Hey, I did that once and I *also* got blown off, maybe I shouldn’t do stuff like that.”

Comment #259: cynickal  on  07/05  at  06:39 PM

Stupid HTML code!  I didn’t use the < thingy!

Doesn’t that just |<uck you off?

Comment #260: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  06:40 PM

Statistically, there just aren’t many such women.

“Statistically,” many such women avoid atheist conferences like the plague because they’re full of creepy assholes making them uncomfortable and driving them away.

My point is: cut us men some fucking slack. Please.

As soon as you start cutting women some fucking slack and acknowledging that there’s literally nothing they can do in this situation without being blamed. Turn the guy down and you’re a bitch; go to his room with him and if he rapes you, you weren’t just asking but practically begging for it. “Everyone knows” you don’t go to a strange man’s hotel room at 4am; what were you thinking?

the tender poet that just knows—just instinctively knows—exactly what every woman wants in every situation.

Try talking to the woman to find out what she wants. Not by propositioning her in an elevator and scaring her, but by actually talking to her, and maybe even being interested in what she’s saying, not just because you want her to fuck you or fall in love with you, but because you might have a fun interaction with someone you find interesting. Sometimes it’ll lead to love and sometimes it won’t. Treating every interaction with a woman as your “last chance” to get laid is a recipe for failure.

Comment #261: junk science  on  07/05  at  06:41 PM

Try talking to the woman to find out what she wants.

Related anecdote: I have an acquaintance who is dating casually at the moment, and frequently badgers me (on gchat) about his dilemma with such-and-such a woman. I cut and paste the above quoted sentence over and over again in these conversations. He never. Ever. Ever. Ever. listens. At this point it’s become a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern situation for me: I keep flipping the coin just to see if it will come up heads infinitely.

 

Comment #262: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  06:45 PM

@JDub If you want someone to cut you slack, ask your friends.  If you haven’t done anything for which slack needs to be cut, what’s the big deal?  No carte blanche before the horse.
And anyway, you haven’t been elected by Men to ask for Man Slacks.  I, for one, am a blue jeans kind of dude, and I’m not interested.

Comment #263: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  06:48 PM

I’ve had a few responses, I hope this addresses them all. I don’t mean that you shouldn’t complain that some behavior is unacceptable. I think I made it pretty clear that I think elevator dude fucked up. I’m just saying that the response to this incident has been completely out of proportion to the actual offense committed.

Either dating is simple, or dating is complex. If you believe it’s complex, isn’t some latitude warranted for the inevitable missteps, misunderstandings, and outright fuck-ups?

I’m grateful that Watson spoke out because it’s going to save a lot of men who are paying attention some unneeded embarrassment. But to say it’s the result of a pernicious attitude of sexism in the atheist community is taking things too far. If anything, it’s the result of an unnavigable vestige of pre-feminist dating norms that will persist unless both sides really think about each other’s challenges.

Comment #264: JDub  on  07/05  at  06:51 PM

I’m just saying that the response to this incident has been completely out of proportion to the actual offense committed.

The response was a woman saying “You know this thing that one of you guys just did?  That’s an example of what’s putting women off.”  How is that out of proportion?

Surely it is the response to that response, for instance, claiming that Watson doesn’t care about women suffering FGM or that somehow the facts that she posed for a calendar and looks younger than she is matter, that is completely out of proportion.  The appropriate response to her response would’ve been “Huh. Really?  Didn’t know that.  Sorry.  Will try harder not to do things like that.”

Comment #265: EG01  on  07/05  at  06:55 PM

@JDub.  Oy.  Both sides?  What, stupid creepy people and people who feel threatened by them?  Put the bong down and step away from it, please.

Comment #266: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  07:00 PM

I’m just saying that the response to this incident has been completely out of proportion to the actual offense committed.

Again, the response given by Watson was a simple request to well-meaning men not to behave this way. The discussion was perpetuated by defensive dudes who are incapable of dealing with a little bit of gentle criticism.

But to say it’s the result of a pernicious attitude of sexism in the atheist community is taking things too far.

I don’t think the atheist community is any more sexist than any other community, but it’s certainly no less sexist. Which is a shame, because most atheists at least claim to value things like rationality, evidence-based thinking, and social justice.

Comment #267: junk science  on  07/05  at  07:01 PM

@JDub

The response to the incident was Watson saying “hey, this isn’t appropriate because x, y, z. If you care about women in the atheist movement, cut it out.”  What part of that is out of proportion?

The subsequent posts and comments have been a response to assholes freaking out and defending the elevator guy and insulting Watson.

It never fucking fails. Someone says something very simple, people demand further explanation and defense of that position, others provide answers, and then all kinds of excuses are made for not accepting those answers. People get pissed and then that’s used as an excuse to dismiss the original statement.  Rewind, repeat.

Comment #268: Farron  on  07/05  at  07:04 PM

By “any other community” I mean “the average community of decent people.” I don’t think atheists are just as sexist as religious fundamentalists, obviously. And the idea of an atheist community is pretty flawed to begin with, since many atheists are small-minded libertarian bullies.

Comment #269: junk science  on  07/05  at  07:05 PM

@JDub

Either dating is simple, or dating is complex. If you believe it’s complex, isn’t some latitude warranted for the inevitable missteps, misunderstandings, and outright fuck-ups?

This has fuck-all to do with what?  Elevator cornering is not about dating.  Am I missing something?

Comment #270: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  07:06 PM

You guys are talking about Watson’s response, which I think was appropriate and productive. I’m talking about the week-long hate-fest that resulted from her comments. I’m not singling out Watson.

Comment #271: JDub  on  07/05  at  07:06 PM

My point is: cut us men some fucking slack.

You fucking first. 

Why don’t you guys cut us women some fucking slack?  Like, I dunno, for starters you could stop raping, assaulting, catcalling, etc. us on a regular basis.  And then when we feel safe for once, maybe we’ll return the favor and cut you poor boys some fucking slack in return. 

Because that’s what we are talking about here; you want us to ignore how fucking scared you make us—with good reason—on a regular basis so that your precious feelings of don’t get dinged up.  And if it’s not you personally, you can still clean up your own damn house before you start complaining about ours.

Comment #272: rowmyboat  on  07/05  at  07:08 PM

I’m talking about the week-long hate-fest that resulted from her comments.

The hate-fest was directed at Watson, for making that response. I have no idea what you’re objecting to now.

Comment #273: junk science  on  07/05  at  07:09 PM

What, this week-long hate-fest?  Or did I miss it?  (Damn!  Always wantin’ to get my hate on, yo.) 

How do you feel about the fact that you believe that you’ve experienced or witnessed a week-long hate fest, and others feel that you are completely missing the point?

Comment #274: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  07:11 PM

157,

I and my sister were once cornered by a very hot man when getting into my car in broad daylight after getting coffee.  I was immediately uncomfortable because he cornered us near my car, where the doors were open.  Then he started changing his story about why he was talking to us.  I got out of there, fast.  The fact that I initially found him attractive, actually very attractive, didn’t make him any less scary.

About three weeks later, he came to the door of my parents’ house, where I was then living, selling magazines.  I basically made a lot of noise to sound like my father (a rather large adult male) approached my mother who was talking to him, but from the other side of the door so he couldn’t see who I was, and signaled to her to get rid of him.  The ruse worked, the attractive young man noted that my mom’s “husband” was trying to get her attention, and beat it.

So fuck you very much.  I don’t know if he was just a con-artist, or worse, but he was creepy as fuck and being hot didn’t make up for it.

Comment #275: Ismone  on  07/05  at  07:13 PM

How do you feel about the fact that you believe that you’ve experienced or witnessed a week-long hate fest, and others feel that you are completely missing the point?

This is hilarious. I didn’t know ELIZA had started commenting on blogs.

Comment #276: junk science  on  07/05  at  07:22 PM

Why should I engage dishonest people who put words in my mouth?

If that’s how you feel, then don’t.  Goodbye.

Oh, wait, that’s not how you feel; you’re just acting wounded for effect.  So that would be . . . entitled?

 

Comment #277: Punditus Maximus  on  07/05  at  07:24 PM

This has been one of those “I weep for my gender” discussions.

There’s one bit of JMoore’s position I want to poke at, though, because I’ve seen it before and it never fails to piss me off.  It’s the whole “I won’t censor myself” thing. I usually see it as “I can’t control other people’s reactions” and phrase in a vaguely pseudo-Buddhist thing about not trying to control other people, but it is still a red flag to me that this person wants carte blanche to be an asshole.

Comment #278: LC  on  07/05  at  07:25 PM

CosmoVanPelt-

Yes, commentary from all sides has been hateful. Hell, my own commentary was probably hateful. Maybe it’s just impossible to have a measured conversation over the internet.

Comment #279: JDub  on  07/05  at  07:25 PM

So whatever the elevator guy did/didn’t do/thought about doing/wanted to do, it doesn’t matter.  He did what he had to do. 

He could have done plenty of things. I myself have learned to restrain myself in many situations. I don’t yell and curse in the workplace even if someone pisses me off, because that’s inappropriate behavior in the workplace. He could have found Rebecca later on the next day and spoken to her. He could have easily said in the elevator, “I’m Bob. I thought your talk today was excellent. Anyway, I’d love to talk with you more about it sometime tomorrow. Well, have a good night,” and got off at his floor.

Seriously,Tim, how obtuse are you ?

Also, I know that lots of conferences, professional and otherwise, can be hotbeds of hookups and other liaisons, but most people agree that conferences would be much improved without this sort of dynamic. The conference is not your meatmarket where you corner tue few women there and try to convince them to sleep with you.

Comment #280: Tyro  on  07/05  at  07:26 PM

I’m not going to self-censor, just because someone might think I’m a rapist.

Why the heck not? Self censoring to make people feel more comfortable is how we, as a society, manage to function. It’s called being civilized.

Comment #281: Tyro  on  07/05  at  07:28 PM

Anyway, I’d love to talk with you more about it sometime tomorrow. Well, have a good night,” and got off at his floor.

Yeah, but he’s a healthy, functioning male, not an emasculated sissy eunuch. He can’t help creeping on women and scaring them away and then complaining that women don’t like sex.

Comment #282: junk science  on  07/05  at  07:29 PM

@JDub—it is challenging to have a measured conversation about how men have the right to threaten violence to women pretty much anywhere, but also on the internet.

Comment #283: Punditus Maximus  on  07/05  at  07:30 PM

This is hilarious. I didn’t know ELIZA had started commenting on blogs.

Why not?  Most comments on places like FreeRepublic could have been written by versions of PARRY.

Comment #284: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  07:30 PM

Tomorrows New Today:

In a misunderstanding of epic proportions, the Skepchick Rape Prevention Act of 2011 was accidentally applied to an out of uniform waiter at Starbucks when he offered a female patron a refill on her coffee.  The matter has been cleared up and the Starbucks employee has been released.  He will not have to register as a sex offender as previously reported.  Joe Jackson, the Starbucks employee accused of rape says he’s just glad the whole thing is over, and promises to be more compliant to the uniform policy at Starbucks in the future.  The accuser’s name was not released as is standard practice in these sensitive matters.

This morning on The View we’ll set aside more important and pressing matters to discuss the issue of Skepchick’s perceived sexual harassment at a recent conference she attended.

Today on Jerry Springer we’ve got a real special show that you’re not going to want to miss.  We’ve chased down the infamous EG (Elevator Guy) who was recently accused of thinking about perhaps wanting to rape and pillage Stepchick, while simultaneously drinking coffee and chatting with her about her atheist feminist leanings.  EG will be facing his accuser head-to-head in our program today.  Don’t miss it.

NOTE TO OUTRAGED FEMINISTS:  It’s ok to be afraid of getting raped because it happens all the time.  From what I read, most times it’s not the lurking elevator guy that you have to worry about.  It’s the guy you decided to go on the date with in the first place.  You never know.  Quit bitching and arm yourselves in an appropriate manner.  I sure as hell would if I were in your position.  It’s common sense.  On the other hand, it’s pointless and diversionary to bring trivial gripes about lurking elevator guy at four am outside the hotel bar into the atheist/skeptic discussion in the first place.

Comment #285: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  07:36 PM

It’s ok to be afraid of getting raped

Well, thanks for your permission.  I wasn’t sure until you gave it.

 

Comment #286: Punditus Maximus  on  07/05  at  07:37 PM

It’s ok to be afraid of getting raped

Thanks for your permission on that one.  I wasn’t sure, but now you’ve cleared it up.

 

Comment #287: Punditus Maximus  on  07/05  at  07:40 PM

Tim,

Newsflash—not many acquaintance rapes happen on actual “dates.”  That is just what a lot of lying rapists say to make it seem like they aren’t rapists—they manipulate the woman into being alone with them, and then lie and say they were “dating” the woman.

This man, whether he was dangerous or not, engaged in disrespectful behaviors that rapists often do.  For example, disregarding someone’s boundaries and approaching them when they are vulnerable and cannot escape.

So, EG has two reasons not to act like a rapist (1) it scares women (2) disrespecting someone’s boundaries is an injury in and of itself.

Comment #288: Ismone  on  07/05  at  07:42 PM

Yes, commentary from all sides has been hateful. Hell, my own commentary was probably hateful. Maybe it’s just impossible to have a measured conversation over the internet.

@JDub

Hrm.  Well, I’m pretty sure you’re not being hated.  Smacked a bit, yes.  It *is* possible to have a measured discussion on the interdwebs, but difficult. Take logic and sense where ye may, mash it up, put it in your pocket.  Later, place it in a microwave-safe cup and heat for 30 seconds : instant wisdom! 

Anyway, the crux is, I think, that this is not just theoretical to some people.  To write dispassionately about “proportion” and adherence to even last punctilio of reasonable discourse, from the perspective of someone who has not had the visceral, moment-to-moment, lived experience of being on the wrong side of a power dynamic that could involve violence or sexual assault, is to miss the point.

Comment #289: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  07:42 PM

@ #277: junk science

Oh, sorry.  That was for JDub.  I thought he was going Emo, so it seemed appropriate.

Actually, ELIZA replies seem appropriate for a number of the Men’s Feelings comments.

Comment #290: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  07:47 PM

TimCha: It’s pointless and diversionary to bring trivial gripes about lurking elevator guy at four am outside the hotel bar into the atheist/skeptic discussion in the first place.

ELIZA: Would you like it if they were not outside the hotel bar into the atheist/skeptic discussion in the first place?

Comment #291: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/05  at  07:58 PM

It’s ok to be afraid of getting raped because it happens all the time.  From what I read, most times it’s not the lurking elevator guy that you have to worry about.  It’s the guy you decided to go on the date with in the first place.  You never know.  Quit bitching and arm yourselves in an appropriate manner.  I sure as hell would if I were in your position.  It’s common sense.  On the other hand, it’s pointless and diversionary to bring trivial gripes about lurking elevator guy at four am outside the hotel bar into the atheist/skeptic discussion in the first place.

Thank goodness for the man who has finally explained to me how rape works!  I, with my lady-brain and my several friends whom men have raped and reading on the topic and self-defense classes and immense amounts of unsought advice from well-meaning people had never before realized what I should do.  Thank goodness some random person with a penis has condescended to reveal the proper priorities and course of action.  Clearly his thoughts should carry far more weight than the many women who have weighed in on the issue.  And surprisingly, he thinks that men shouldn’t have to even hear about the ways in which they make women feel uncomfortable and threatened.

I particularly like “arm yourselves.”  Because these guys who don’t think there’s any reason to talk about feeling threatened by some guy making in appropriate comments in an elevator, because why should atheist men be bothered with women’s petty concerns, are totally going to believe women when we explain in court how we shot the douchebag because he was trying to rape us.

Comment #292: EG01  on  07/05  at  08:09 PM

Not that it really matter, but I want to call bullshit on this particular bit of male privilege:

Most of the angst directed at Rebecca is from guys who wish and dream that a girl would try to proposition them for sex in the elevator (or WHEREVER) at four am (or WHENEVER).

No, they really don’t.  Many of a certain kind of clueless-misogynist guys may say and even superficially imagine they do, but in the event they would freak the heck out, because a) creepy to be propositioned by a stranger in an elevator or other confined space and b) as some/many of these sorts of guys’ female friends and acquaintance have found out, making an active sexual proposition relegates an actual (not fantasy) woman in such guys’ minds to the category of slut/psycho-stalker/desperate/ugly no matter how attractive she may previously have been.

So really what you have is some of the same guys thinking that it’s fine for a guy to corner a woman in an elevator but for a woman to do the same to a man would be horrific.

Comment #293: paul  on  07/05  at  08:11 PM

I’d totally be in support of something that might actually improve the odds of women not getting raped.  Like longer sentences for actual rapists.  We could let some of the pot smokers out of jail to make room for them.

Enjoy.

Comment #294: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  08:15 PM

NOTE TO OUTRAGED FEMINISTS:  It’s ok to be afraid of getting raped because it happens all the time.  From what I read, most times it’s not the lurking elevator guy that you have to worry about.  It’s the guy you decided to go on the date with in the first place.  You never know.  Quit bitching and arm yourselves in an appropriate manner. 

I mean, really.  If you little ladies step outside of your hotel rooms wearing anything less than an armoured burqa over full plate armour with two chastity belts, carrying anything less than an assault rifle with a flashing neon sign saying “GO AWAY RAPISTS”, you’re really just asking for it.  You can’t blame a guy for thinking you might be a dirty slut gagging for it.

I’m right behind you on this one, Tim.

Comment #295: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  08:26 PM

ELIZA: Would you like it if they were not outside the hotel bar into the atheist/skeptic discussion in the first place?

PARRY: I’ve been to the races.

Comment #296: junk science  on  07/05  at  08:28 PM

One thing that would improve the odds of women not getting raped would be if women’s boundaries were not constantly and consistently eroded by disrespectful people, and if when it happened, it were taken seriously.

Because Tim, what you are doing is encouraging women “not to overreact” to behavior you deem safe.  I and several others have pointed out that controlling behavior like that is a hallmark of rapists, and that submitting to such behavior paints a target on your back.

So, actually, better boundaries and more respect for boundaries does reduce rape.  Because recognizing boundaries mean recognizing the humanity of others.  And doing that, and having stronger norms about boundary-respecting would make rapists’ behavior all the more abnormal, and thus, all the easier for us to recognize and punish.

Comment #297: Ismone  on  07/05  at  08:30 PM

Well, Tim, while women all over the world are working their asses off trying to get rape taken more seriously by law enforcement (and often getting harassed for it), the least you can do in the meantime is not contribute to an environment that encourages men to push women’s boundaries as far as they can knowing there will always be other men out there who will defend them.  Because those poor men just can’t help themselves if hysterical women overreact to their well-meaning advances, right??

Comment #298: Farron  on  07/05  at  08:33 PM

JDV-

Honest question, what’s “emo?” I’ve heard the term, but I’m not exactly current with the contemporary lingo. Is that what they used to call an “art fag?” Because, fuck yeah, that’s me.

Comment #299: JDub  on  07/05  at  08:47 PM

Rebecca’s comment was part of the ongoing issue “How can we make skepticism appeal to women and get more women at conferences?”  As such it should be irrelevant to skeptics whether the Elevator Guy was a potential rapist, a creep using pressuring tactics, a socially inept Rebecca fan or whatever.  His behavior made Rebecca uncomfortable, and would have made many other women uncomfortable, and that’s that. So Rebecca says - uh, don’t do this, guys.

Of course any individual male skeptic is permitted to value their legal right to proposition uninterested women in secluded locations more highly than having a friendly diverse skeptical community, but Rebecca was speaking to Skepchick readers who presumably want more ‘chick’ participation.

Comment #300: hesterk  on  07/05  at  08:47 PM

Honest question, what’s “emo?”

The Urban Dictionary is your friend.

Actually, The UD is your trained elephant - capable of being quite useful, but extremely smelly, producing an incredible amount of excrement and every now and again running wild and savaging you.

Comment #301: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  09:02 PM

@295 -

As long as YOU don’t get to decide who are “actual rapists.”  From the way you think, your odds aren’t good, buddy.

Comment #302: Kathy  on  07/05  at  09:05 PM

I don’t want to recount everything that happened in depth, because it’s really done better elsewhere, but what happened was this: Rebecca Watson, who travels extensively speaking about skepticism and atheism, was at a conference in Ireland and a guy followed her onto an elevator at 4AM and cold propositioned her for sex in this enclosed space without ever speaking to her before.
——————————————-

COLD PROPOSITIONED HER FOR SEX!!

Best if you don’t recount “everything’ that happened in depth, because I actually watched Rebecca’s video and no such claim was made.  Even if it had been, the level of pearl clutching by a supposedly mature, well traveled independent woman is unseemly.  In an attempt to find some tidbit of sympathy for Rebecca, I did ask my wife to watch the video.  She also failed to ‘get it’, and was much more harsh towards Rebecca than I would ever be.  It was my wife’s reluctance to accept my (flawed as it turned out) presupposition that Skepchick was a woman of science.  Likely a biology professional (I see her mentioned on PZ’s site a fair bit).  My wife scoffed at that.  It’s the initial reason I googled the wiki for Rebecca.  To prove she had a science background and should be considered a reliable source.  I bet she did.  My wife said NO WAY.  My wife was right.  She’s got a communications degree and worked herself through school as a magician (explains Randi connection).  My wife was much more harsh on Rebecca than my tongue-in-cheek jibes I can assure you.

Comment #303: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  09:05 PM

I couldn’t get through all the comments, but presumably the guy was drunk, right? I’ve rarely been on an elevator at 4 am when sober. That would add an entirely new element of danger. Horny guy reeking of booze.

Comment #304: John Joel Glanton  on  07/05  at  09:05 PM

wtf does having a science background have to do with anything and how the fuck is a communications major magician an expert on who is or isn’t a scientist?

Comment #305: Farron  on  07/05  at  09:10 PM

The Urban Dictionary is your friend.

Speak for yourself. I don’t even like to google slangy-sounding phrases anymore for fear of being offered a glimpse into the douche pit.

The Tim Channel, your wife married you, which already casts a whole lot of doubt on her credibility. But I’m glad you found someone who’s apparently as big an asshole as you. There’s someone out there for everyone.

Comment #306: junk science  on  07/05  at  09:11 PM

@303

A bit confused by your remark.  If you think I would jail elevator guy for rape you are wrong.  If you think I should jail elevator guy for rape you’re wrong again.  Rape is not asking a girl up to your room for coffee, even if done at four a.m. in a hotel elevator to a pissed off feminist.  He did not slap her ass or snap her bra-strap, though I’ve now read how much of a problem that is for some women as well.  Is that rape too?  Should we put those cheeky bastards in jail and throw away the key?  You might get me on board with that I’ll admit.  There’s at least some ACTUAL form of assault involved in those cases.  Not just the paranoid fears of a single girl in a foreign land.

Comment #307: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  09:17 PM

@307

I knew there would be ad hominems directed at my wife when I mentioned her participation in this.  They are a necessary balance to the ones being directed at me.  Not sure how long I’ll be allowed to remain free though.  Can’t be too long now before one of you calls the cops and accuses me of mentally raping you.

Enjoy.

Comment #308: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  09:21 PM

Can’t be too long now before one of you calls the cops and accuses me of mentally raping you.

Unlikely.  You’re way too mentally tiny and flaccid.

Have you considered that you’re mentally exposing yourself, and that your problem is people pointing and laughing at your mental shortcomings?

Comment #309: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  09:25 PM

Phoenician—you made me laugh out loud.  That was awesome.  You win the thread.

Comment #310: Laurie  on  07/05  at  09:28 PM

Funny how Tim ignores the comments that explain why the creepy behavior is actually unsafe, and makes women more vulnerable.

But not surprising.

Comment #311: Ismone  on  07/05  at  09:29 PM

I haven’t had a chance to read through all the comments because I am at work, on here on the sly, so I apologise if this has already been said.

I agree with you and when it comes to talking to those Athiests about sexism & feminism, I do think it’s harder than getting through to religious people.
Religious people have had to adjust their way of thinking over the years due to Science outweighing a lot of religions theories, whereas those that don’t follow a ‘faith’ or a set of morals forced upon them have a lot more firm views that’ve been gained sub-consciously, in my opinon anyway. They love saying that religion is a load of baloney but when questioned about their ideals, they don’t like to hear other views and stick to theirs ‘RELIGIOUSLY’.

Also I’ve never seen that scene from it’s always sunny… Bit dark, hey??

sydney video production

Comment #312: studio33  on  07/05  at  09:38 PM

I haven’t had a chance to read through all the comments because I am at work, on here on the sly, so I apologise if this has already been said.

I agree with you and when it comes to talking to those Athiests about sexism & feminism, I do think it’s harder than getting through to religious people.
Religious people have had to adjust their way of thinking over the years due to Science outweighing a lot of religions theories, whereas those that don’t follow a ‘faith’ or a set of morals forced upon them have a lot more firm views that’ve been gained sub-consciously, in my opinon anyway. They love saying that religion is a load of baloney but when questioned about their ideals, they don’t like to hear other views and stick to theirs ‘RELIGIOUSLY’.

Also I’ve never seen that scene from it’s always sunny… Bit dark, hey??



sydney video production

Comment #313: studio33  on  07/05  at  09:39 PM

Akheloios :

What pisses me off the most about this is that Rebecca Watson, Jen McCreight, you, and a lot of other bloggers have to take time off from reporting on the wildly crazy religious/right-wing/authoritarian bullshit and instead devote time to instructing members of our own community in basic feminism.

Now to be fair there’s Feminism 101, and then there’s Feminism: Preschool edition, featuring lessons like “you shouldn’t cut out women’s genitalia” or “you shouldn’t have laws that forbid women from participating in society” or “wives aren’t their husband’s slaves”.

Compared to the wildly crazy religious/right-wing/authoritarian bullshit, what they instruct the members of their own community is isn’t quite “basic” feminism.

Comment #314: Caravelle  on  07/05  at  09:42 PM

This has actually been one of the better discussions of this affair I’ve browsed, the few apologists notwithstanding. At Phil Plait’s place, most of the comments seemed to be along the lines of “Does this mean we can’t talk to women?” and “Why do we have to hear about feminism?”

As a painfully shy person I’m in full agreement with the many commenters above who said that Elevator Guy’s behavior was absolutely not that of a socially inept introvert. I’m confused about the meaning of “The Implication” - is it a specific move to pressure someone in a difficult situation into an even more difficult situation?

Comment #315: bad Jim  on  07/05  at  09:47 PM

Seriously,Tim, how obtuse are you ?

He’s not obtuse.  He’s pulling the rhetorical version of The Implication—-pretending to be obtuse in order to get away with his misogynist comments.

Comment #316: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  09:51 PM

Seriously,Tim, how obtuse are you ?

He’s not obtuse.  He’s pulling the rhetorical version of The Implication—-pretending to be obtuse in order to get away with his misogynist comments.

Comment #317: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  09:51 PM

I’ve been in R. Watson’s place a few times - not in the late-night drunk elevator sense, but being propositioned at conferences where I’ve spoken. All threats of assault aside, what this man did was disrespectful. I used to be a leader in a student socialist organization, and for several years running I gave talks and panel discussions at our conferences.

I would get hit on all the time. “Hey aegyptoad, [friend] and I were talking last night and we decided that you were the hottest girl here” was the one that made me lose it at one of the more recent events. I had just - like five minutes before! - given my Socialist Feminism 101 panel, and it was the last day of the conference, and I had been getting that kind of thing all fucking weekend. I wasn’t there for men to tell me that I’m hot. I was there to learn more about politics, economics, and to spend time with other lefties and my friends. Being hit on like that means that there is minimal respect for women in that environment. Here’s what this behavior says: they aren’t listening to you, they’re listening to your tits. Your intellectual contribution is unnecessary.

I think all this freaking out about Watson is kind of getting away from the point - that this was profoundly disrespectful behavior. It makes me not want to go to atheist conferences, if all I’ll really be able to contribute is some tits and a pretty face. Or leftist conferences, which was one of the reasons I gave up and stopped going. It’s not about the implicit threat of assault that really gets me about RW’s experience, it’s the implication that women are clearly not welcomed as equal members in the atheist community, and the fact that the men who are lashing out at Watson’s criticisms don’t seem to see this.

Comment #318: aegyptoad  on  07/05  at  09:51 PM

Yeah, unfortunately atheists and secularists are inheritors of religious schemes in many ways, although they are not usually consciously aware of this (many of them come from science or other non-humanities backgrounds).  So they will often fall for old view that women are inherently emotional, whereas males are rational.  This view is metaphysical, not scientific.

Comment #319: scratchy888  on  07/05  at  09:55 PM

Yeah, unfortunately atheists and secularists are inheritors of religious schemes in many ways, although they are not usually consciously aware of this (many of them come from science or other non-humanities backgrounds).  So they will often fall for old view that women are inherently emotional, whereas males are rational.  This view is metaphysical, not scientific.

Comment #320: scratchy888  on  07/05  at  09:55 PM

Funny how, when “Tim” gets flustered, he forgets that to put that creepy “Enjoy” at the end of his comments.

Comment #321: keshmeshi  on  07/05  at  09:56 PM

bad Jim, watch the video.

Comment #322: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  10:03 PM

Funny how, when “Tim” gets flustered, he forgets that to put that creepy “Enjoy” at the end of his comments.

It’s hard work being so creepy you know. This is probably why we need to cut the poor lads so much slack.

Comment #323: Well, what?  on  07/05  at  10:12 PM

Not just the paranoid fears of a single girl in a foreign land.

Again, why should we accord your assessment of what a reasonable and accurate fear more credibility than our own experiences?  Would you take her experiences and assessments thereof more seriously if she were not single, but married?  And what does being in a foreign land have to do with anything?

Comment #324: EG01  on  07/05  at  10:25 PM

Duh, the title is right there above the window, it just didn’t show up a text search. I admit it, I’m a textual deviate. The video reminds me of why I try to avoid videos, and that sort of comedy. That was worse than I’d imagined. Threat of rape, straight up.

Thanks, though.

Comment #325: bad Jim  on  07/05  at  10:26 PM

I’m confused about the meaning of “The Implication” - is it a specific move to pressure someone in a difficult situation into an even more difficult situation?

Dennis is not “really” a rapist.  Oh no.  He’d be upset and angry if you said that.  Rapists are bad, and Dennis is good - the ladies all like Dennis.

Dennis just likes putting women in a position where they’re afraid to say “no” because he gets more sex out of it, and he can’t see why anyone would see that as a problem.  But that’s not rape - I mean, they COULD say no.  And he’d respect that.  He just knows they won’t because they think he might not.  Totally different, you see.

So don’t call him a rapist, because that’s a lie.

Comment #326: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/05  at  10:39 PM

#304

Oh, Timmy, Timmy, Timmy. If only you had thought to invent a wife, like, 200 posts earlier!

I’m intrigued to learn that only scientists may be taken as a reliable source, because it just so happens, I am a biology professional myself! And I can happily (and reliably!) confirm that you are a sad, shriveled despicable little tool of a man.

Comment #327: grolby  on  07/05  at  11:31 PM

Here is the simple formula that sexist dudes use:

In all cases:

Dudes > women

therefore

Dude feelings/need for sex/whatever > women’s desire for safety, courtesy, or respect.

There you go. You can slap all the evopsych bullshit just-so stories about aggressive cavemen and coy cavewomen on it, if you want, or you can play that song that goes “It’s a Woman’s Job to Help Awkward Dudes Find Love (So Don’t Get Upset When We Stalk You),” or you can write the thoughtful essay about “Women: Why are They So Irrational Compared to Men?” if you like.  It’s all been done before, but hey, knock yourselves out.

But really, the formula is the basis of all of it, and it’s really all you need to continue being a clueless, sexist, douchebag.

Comment #328: emjaybee  on  07/05  at  11:31 PM

I’ll admit that I didn’t watch “The Implication” video, so I can’t say whether I’m attempting to replicate some copyrighted version thereof.  I guess I have to watch that too now.  Jeebus.

Ok Amanda, I watched the video.  And the ‘implication’ is that a hotel elevator is somehow akin to the vast desperate desolation of the open sea?  That a guy bumbling a pickup attempt is somehow equivalent to an overtly predatory dickwad in a current hit television show?

You can ignore me or cuss me.  It’s obvious this is a divisive issue, even within our own community (of which I’m now the bastard stepchild - lol).  It’s not something that works well in the public relations pantheon of much more reasonable complaints made by the feminist community.  I’ve prima facie evidence thereof.  You’re soaking in it.

Comment #329: The Tim Channel  on  07/05  at  11:39 PM

This whole thing is dreadfully reminiscent of the controversy over Lawrence Summers’ remarks, when he was president of Harvard, that women couldn’t be expected to perform at the highest level in physics and mathematics. It was depressing to see regular commenters on liberal blogs defending him. We definitely have a problem with sexism in our ranks.

It may even be that feminism has as poor a reputation in general discourse as environmentalism has among conservatives. Both are objects of ridicule: bra-burners and tree-huggers, and taking either seriously is derided as political correctness.

For what it’s worth, Greg Laden has an interesting take involving a possibly rabid pit bull.

Comment #330: bad Jim  on  07/05  at  11:41 PM

Yeah, right.  After all, if a problem experienced by many, many women cuts no ice with some dude on the internet, why pursue it?  Isn’t feminism all about public relations outreach to men?

Comment #331: EG01  on  07/05  at  11:47 PM

“with some dude on the internet”
————————
Would you be referring to me or Richard “some dude on the internet’ Dawkins?  In any event, I’m flattered, but it doesn’t change the fact that this is a trivial silly issue to bring to the fore when there are much MUCH much MUCH more pressing issues.

Let’s focus on Skepchick’s hurt feelings a bit more.  Who cares if women get paid less for doing the same job as men.  This is more important.  So long as their boss doesn’t ask them for a date whiling underpaying them, it’s no harm, no foul.

Let’s rant on how uncivil and barbaric men sometimes (often/always?) are in approaching and interacting with women in the skeptic community (the US/planet Earth?).  Let’s pretend it’s almost the same thing as rape.  Yeah, that will really shake up those idiot lunkheads.

To really win friends and influence people, let’s accuse those who disagree with us of inventing wives and posting their internet address too much in their web posts.  Why not.  It’s nearly as irrelevant as the complaint made by Skepchick in the first place and it would be abhorrent to mess with established tradition.

Enjoy.

Comment #332: The Tim Channel  on  07/06  at  12:20 AM

Ismone:

Because recognizing boundaries mean recognizing the humanity of others.

And after 10,000 comments you’ve distilled it down into why what seems like a small incident has caused such a shitstorm.  If they ever lose that fight, the patriarchy will have ended and the entire social order will be overturned.

The problem is that she demanded to be treated as a human.  And that is what the severe and disproportional resistance to the idea is about.

Comment #333: Nimravid  on  07/06  at  12:52 AM

Oh, the naysayers: at #171 saying that the Principal stopping warning the boys about “bra snapping” and whatever else sexually inappropriate at school, might not have a lasting impression.

Oh, but it apparently did: I was never again touched sexually or inappropriately in the high school either by any of the guys: don’t know any of my friends who were (and we were cute, although not the most popular mean girls.)

Never heard of such a thing happening to girls in the junior high or high school, because the Vice Principals were usually recruited from the jock Phys Ed teachers, and they rode the boys hard—and ours was a small school (200 in my graduating class), if any guy had stepped out of line,m in public, at school, the rumors would have spread like wildfire.

Say one thing for the patriarchy back then, they didn’t put up with that shit in a small suburban public high school (didn’t want to hear from the fathers or mothers, I’d imagine.)

At public college in 1968, the school was also considered in loco parentis: separate boys and girls domitories, and curfews, no less.

Private lives, something else again. It would have been difficult, if not impossible to pursue an acquaintance rape case. A friend’s sister was date raped, and it never even came to trial.

Comment #334: judybrowni  on  07/06  at  01:10 AM

And the ‘implication’ is that a hotel elevator is somehow akin to the vast desperate desolation of the open sea?

When was the last time you walked through the walls of an elevator, Tim?

That a guy bumbling a pickup attempt is somehow equivalent to an overtly predatory dickwad in a current hit television show?

Or maybe that said dickwad’s incomprehension at what might be considered dubious about his intentions might be mirrored by said elevator dude - AND YOUR OWN - incomprehension at what might be considered dubious about hitting women up in elevators?

Comment #335: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/06  at  01:12 AM

Tim is even more of an asshole than ever, can’t reason his way out of a paperbag, either—why isn’t he banned?

Creating Feminist Strawwomen should be enough, “Let’s pretend that the skeptic community approaching/interacting is the same thing as rape.”

Yeah, while Tim pretends that a woman approached sexually at 4 a.m., alone, in an enclosed elevator doesn’t have to worry about rape: although of course women have written maybe a hundred comments to that effect in this thread alone.

But they’re hardly human, so why would their experience count to keyboard Tim?

Comment #336: judybrowni  on  07/06  at  01:20 AM

What is this weird “enjoy” thing you’ve got going on, Tim?  Do you really think you’re “winning friends and influencing people” with that sort of thing?

Are you under the impression that feminists are incapable of concerning ourselves with equal pay, sexual violence, and sexist intimidation/threat?  That’s odd.  Sometimes, all in the course of a day, I contemplate what I shall make for dinner, whether to make a doctor’s appointment to check into that odd pain I’ve been having, whether or not I’ll be able to afford to have children, and still find the time to consider the state of abortion rights.  It’s really amazing the variety of concerns a person can process, all in one and the same brain, often within a relatively short period of time.

I mean, we appreciate your interest in how best to present ourselves and all, but—and I suspect you’re going to have trouble with this—your opinion is not actually the yardstick by which feminists measure the significance of our concerns.

Let me break this down for you one more time: feminism is, among other things, about centering women’s experiences and judgment rather than automatically deferring to men as somehow, mystically, more reasonable or objective (despite that flood of hormones they must struggle against).  That means that even when men—even such men as the great Richard Dawkins—object to or dismiss our concerns as “trivial” or “silly,” we still consider them valid.  Hard to come to terms with, I know, but true nonetheless.  We might even point out how ridiculous and hypocritical it is to ask a woman to discuss why women are not interested in joining your “community,” and then dismiss her answer as trivial and silly.  Uppity of us, but there you are.

Feminism is not about winning popularity contests with men.  Men’s good opinions are not the currency in which we measure our winnings.  In fact, feminists have a long and honorable history of pissing most men off with their objections to sexism, misogyny, and patriarchy.  Pissing off the dominant group is evidence that a movement is actually challenging and/or threatening that group’s entrenched power. 

Interestingly, given that this is a discussion of rape, rapists often use boundary-testing as a way to figure out whether or not a woman will make a vulnerable victim: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/ 

Here’s a relevant quotation:

“These undetected rapists:

• are extremely adept at identifying “likely” victims, and testing prospective victims’ boundaries;

• plan and premeditate their attacks, using sophisticated strategies to groom their victims for attack, and to isolate them physically”

So you can see why a man who does not respect a woman’s boundaries and isolates her physically just might trip some alarm bells for her.  You might also take a look at Gavin de Becker’s The Gift of Fear to understand why a woman might want to trust those alarm bells. 

It can be hard for men, used as they are to having their opinions being the ones that count, to accept that their perspectives are not the ones on which feminists base their values or assessments of the world.  Still, this capability, one that I like to call “empathy” is well worth developing.

Comment #337: EG01  on  07/06  at  01:36 AM

Gabby’s Playhouse says it better than I could: (emphases mine)

“But people can be weird, man. People — straight, male people, in particular — sure can have some strange misconceptions about how the world spins. Also, they are usually loud. Anyway, this cartoon will be of no help at all in changing our stupid, sexist culture of rape, murder, domination and bad tv — in fact, it hardly even qualifies as entertainment (although there is one kitten, scroll down to the bottom to skip straight to it!). But drawing this certainly made me feel better, so it made the cut. Don’t think I don’t know how I make you suffer, dear, patient reader!”

& Meryn Cadell’s Martina.

“pump, pump, blow the dump
the steaming sewers
take the chance that only chancy chicks would take
and cakewalk home with icy brakes of spiky heels and clicks they make
and walk through your cold neighbourhood
but don’t get raped, knock on wood
Martina hobbled home, breathing in time to the sounds of her footsteps on the pavement.
All the houses made hushy, silent sounds because it was a thick night at 3 a.m.
Nobody was around. That’s the worst time, a part of her said.
But most of her just said vup, tup, vup, tup, vup, tup
to her swinging legs.
pump, pump, blow the dump
the steaming sewers
take the chance that only chancy chicks would take
and cakewalk home with icy brakes of spiky heels and clicks they make
and walk through your cold neighbourhood
but don’t get raped, knock on wood”

Comment #338: Smartpatrol  on  07/06  at  01:45 AM

It occurred to me, reading the incredibly obtuse bullshit surrounding this issue, that “Rebecca Watson was dragging private disagreements into the public eye” is pretty much the same thing as “Lady, this is a private disagreement between you and your husband. I know you have a black eye, but whyncha just go back inside and try not to make such a scene?”

Comment #339: kristin  on  07/06  at  01:47 AM

Oh, and upthread, Tim also states sexual harassment of young girls and women as not important because it’s not actually rape, ya know.

You chicks who don’t want to be sexually harassed at work, 13 year old girls who don’t want to be manhandled at school, oh shut up yer whining!

Why should you expect to be able to live your daily lives in something less than fear of being sexually mauled? Because, according to Tim it’s that—or actual rape on top of the xerox machine, and a gang bang by the basket ball team during study hall.

Those are your only choices, girls! Sexual harassment or actual rape: you can’t be spared from both from puberty on, according to Tim.

According to Tim, it’s either equal pay or be sexually threatened at work: make up your minds, ladies, Tim says you can’t have both.

Comment #340: judybrowni  on  07/06  at  01:50 AM

Talking of feminism 101, this discussion has been educational for me at least.  As a feminist man and a long time reader of this blog I’ve been examining my own male privilege as I read down through these posts (through to comment #338 at this point.)

Comments by Eileen, in #237, & Laurie in #243 in particular highlight the gap between my experience simply navigating through the world and that of many women.  I should hope I haven’t been completely clueless about such things but I know I suffer lapses, and this refresher has been welcome.

(Ugh, pardon my stilted language I sound like a prig.  I love Pandagon commenters, keep pwning trolls!)

Relurking now.

Comment #341: dcb-  on  07/06  at  02:10 AM

“These undetected rapists:

• are extremely adept at identifying “likely” victims, and testing prospective victims’ boundaries;

• plan and premeditate their attacks, using sophisticated strategies to groom their victims for attack, and to isolate them physically”

A thousand times this! “Cutting men some slack” can make it more likely that you’ll be victimized—haven’t we all heard the phrase “give them an inch, they’ll take a mile”? Rapists look for that inch and love that inch. EG wasn’t asking for coffee, he was asking for that inch. And sure, maybe he wouldn’t have taken the whole mile (he’s a nice shy geeky guy, right, so surely a few feet would do for him) and maybe he wouldn’t have taken anything but that inch (Rebecca might have made it out of a strange man’s hotel room just fine, odder things have happened) but there is no way to know ahead of time. There is no way of knowing until the mile is taken.

Classic “Schrodinger’s Rapist” where the woman is expected to know something literally unknowable—whether the man will rape or not—and will be blamed for guessing wrong, or even for guessing right (did you correctly guess that he is a rapist? What a thing to call him! You bitch!)

And yeah, we still cut men slack. All the time. I’m sure I’ve smiled sweetly at rapists; I’m sure I’ve politely turned down a rapist, or pretended not to hear a rapist, or said “thank you” to a rapist when he started talking about my pretty eyes. I know I’ve done these things to men who have acted like rapists and tried to cross my clear boundaries. If I stopped cutting men slack every one of those creepy guys would be wounded or dead or I would be in prison because it’s always “of course he was a rapist!” when he wins and “of course he wasn’t a rapist!” when the woman does. There is no room for preemptive, speculative self-defense… but women get blamed for not doing exactly that when they get raped.

And entitled “logical” male shitstains (like Mr. “Enjoy”) start pissing themselves when women mention this, all their putrid “rationality” leaking down their privileged legs when confronted with such a simple reality. I guess that women are supposed to cut them slack in their slacks both for when their penises want some action, and also to accommodate the diapers they demand we leave them in, ignorant and underdeveloped and sniveling about “feminazis” while refusing to learn about reality? :D

Comment #342: Bagelsan  on  07/06  at  03:19 AM

My, some things never change. The name-calling of women who do not agree with one’s opinions (Sister Punishers) and the criticism of Mehta telling Watson her calling out McGraw in public was “unprofessional” being an example of “sexist paternalist” is eerily familiar. Where have I seen those tactics work before? Yes, I know: Amanda Marcotte’s coverage of the Duke-Lacrosse case!

Anyone questioning the guilt of the players accused of rape or deploring the rush to find the players guilty were branded “rape apologist”. In fact, CNN is “pure evil” because they dared give voice to people questioning the alleged victim’s narrative. How anyone can take Marcotte seriously after that episode is mind-boggling. But if readers are willing to look past her cowardice (I’m still waiting for a post about that case now that it’s been proven that there was no rape), I’m sure they will be willing to look past Dawkins for his sexist and stupid comments. Because FSM knows that Marcotte’s lack of ovaries in the aftermath of the Lacrosse case is blatant.

I guess I’m a Sister Punisher (or a traitor to my gender) because I cannot get over the fact that anything Marcotte has to say about sexism and rape can be taken seriously after those posts. It’s not that Marcotte was wrong to berate anyone who questioned the credibility of the alleged victim (after all, it is a fact that all rape victims see their claims questioned and are always slut-shamed) but it’s the silence. The dishonest and coward silence. As if those posts were never written and that case never existed.  Maybe Dawkins will go that road: he’ll ignore he ever made those comments and just continue to keep writing and have a loyal readership. He’ll lose some readers, he’ll gain some. Just like Marcotte.

Comment #343: Linfame  on  07/06  at  03:26 AM

Saucer of milk for Linfame?

Comment #344: Smartpatrol  on  07/06  at  04:01 AM

This issue is generating hundreds of comments on blogs that normally get dozens. Probably some of that comes from defenders of Dawkins; it mostly seems to be of the “no harm, no foul” category: the lady said no, the lad laid off, what’s the problem? But why are hundreds of guys hammering this point? (No shit: someone at Bad Astronomy is saying she shouldn’t have gotten on the elevator at 4am.)

I think I suggested here that we needed a better term for people who aren’t sexist than “feminism”, since gay rights were a big part of our agenda. Then we get gay marriage in New York (yay!). Then this shit comes up and reminds me why I’m angry, and proud, to be a feminist.

Comment #345: bad Jim  on  07/06  at  04:06 AM

Right, because if someone says something you think is wrong once, Linfame, in the future, the *opposite* of what they say is therefore true.

That has got to be one of the more idiotic things I have read on this thread.  And that is saying a lot.

Comment #346: Ismone  on  07/06  at  04:34 AM

Yeah, “she shouldn’t have gotten on an elevator at 4 a.m.” because a good woman would have been magically wafted to her hotel room on the wings of an angel.

Not stepped into the conveyance specially constructed to convey one to one’s hotel room, at 4 am, where her very presence at that hour provoked an otherwise honorable man into a proposition.

After all, she also could have taken the stairs, which deserted at that hour, might be a tempting area for rapists in wait. A well-earned rape, for the nerve of negotiating to move about a hotel, in which she had booked a room, at that hour!

But nooooooooooooooooo, she chose to take a hotel elevator up to her hotel room—the slut!

Comment #347: judybrowni  on  07/06  at  05:38 AM

My takeaway from this whole thing is simply that I doubt I’ll ever go to any atheist conventions/events.
Which is a shame, because I’m an atheist, and I bet I’d really enjoy aspects of that community, but there is just no way I would willingly subject myself to that atmosphere. 
It’s not the presence of Elevator Guy and his type that I’m talking about - those guys are everywhere.  It’s the 1000s of comments from seemingly reasonable men who seem to be not only completely ignorant of even the most basic aspects of feminism, but also completely unwilling to even try to put themselves in a woman’s shoes for 2 fucking seconds. 
I mean, it’s like antifeminist bingo in every damn thread on this.  Everything from “she was asking for it” to “women are crazily paranoid about rape” to “she’s hysterical, she needs to shut up” to “how could she be so mean, he was probably just a sweet geeky guy”...  how can so many supposedly enlightened, liberal guys be spouting this tired bullshit?  All because a woman said “Hey, dudes, don’t corner women in elevators, it freaks them out”, which is, to my mind, just about the most gentle and least controversial statement ever uttered in the history of time?
So that’s my rant.  As I said, I’m keeping my atheist woman self at home, thank you very much.  But I doubt many of these dudes will care - in fact, based on this, it seems that’s what most of them would prefer.

Comment #348: nico  on  07/06  at  06:34 AM

The public-criticism thing…

I am consistently tickled pink by how many people still don’t seem to understand the wonderful exciting world of the internet they regularly take part in.

There still is this cultural idea that the internet is somehow “faker”, “less real”, “not really public” or that what happens here shouldn’t at all reflect on people and communities and that this world should somehow be separate from the “real world” in all possible ways.

I mean, seriously, oh, she shouldn’t have aired it publicly?

Really?

What do you think the internet is, but a public forum?

What is said here is someone behind a computer, saying something real and standing behind it with whatever chosen internet handle for their real identity is in that space. Quoting someone’s net presence in real life isn’t “bad form”, because it’s a public argument and a conference is a public argument. A conference speech is like a blog post with better lighting and more uncomfortable chairs.

And a conference speech is not some big immovable object one can’t interact with. I mean, we live with the web. One can and has consistently argued in real-time on twitter to conference speeches one views as inane or offensive or otherwise wrong or useless. It’s common behavior. Many post conferences online in video where commentators hash out further arguments with the panel and add other points of discussion and none of this stops someone typing on their blog or engaging in another context the statements made and making one’s own point in one’s own style.

There isn’t some wall between the “real” world and the internet where never the two shall meet. The internet can comment directly and instantly to “real” world events and “real” world events often reference internet activities. The only reason it seems odd is because people aren’t quite adapted socially to the new dynamic and as such it just “feels” like the worlds should be separate.

Well, that and it’s an obvious distraction in order to justify the fact that people found the very act of speaking in contrary to a social norm of silence about male bad behavior and assumed female roles and treatment itself rude and off-putting and so are looking for any bad behavior to justify the hostile feelings.

Fuck, this is what occurs with nearly all women speaking out about things. It’s probably why most rape trials are about finding exactly why the woman is a lying bitch or secret slut for daring to talk about rape out in the open.

But the desperate excuses wear thin because they don’t pertain to any society we currently live in. You can’t separate internet and “reality” and make them interact only on their own. Both will comment on each other, reference each other, and change how each interacts.

What we say publicly is what we say publicly, whether we say it online or in “real” life and I doubt if Stef had written her article in say a newspaper that anyone would have been able even in this desperation to pretend that Rebecca had done anything wrong in quoting her even though it was in a “one-sided speech” (seriously, what do you think a blog post is, but a one-sided speech).

That all said, this was a fantastic post Amanda, and your linked articles are incredibly valuable for cutting through the bullshit that so often is invoked to distract.

Comment #349: Cerberus  on  07/06  at  06:43 AM

Ismone: and somehow I don’t see you going to RW’s blog and post how idiotic her decision to boycott Dawkins is! I mean because he said something sexist and wrong must mean we have to call him a dinosaur and state we will never read any of his books on biology or evolution right? Why bother reading him about his area of expertise when he said some idiotic thing about a woman being harassed right? Clearly that means he needs to be boycotted! Yeah, I’m going to wait while you tell all of those stating they want nothing to do with Dawkins anymore that they are acting like idiots. Until then…

Comment #350: Linfame  on  07/06  at  08:25 AM

Because Ismone, what Dawkins once/twice/thrice said was wrong but that doesn’t mean that in the future, he’s going to be wrong right (even if he blatantly tries to push this under a rug)? Though we may be more skeptical and critical of his arguments now that we’ve seen how fallible he is instead of blindly accepting his arguments and labelling any dissenting views apologists this, scum that, anti-this, potential-that. One would hope so!

Comment #351: Linfame  on  07/06  at  08:38 AM

#239 -

“Men who do it may not be rapists, but *they let the knowledge that some are rapists linger in the air for women to consider when composing their responses.*  That you don’t believe this either indicates that you’re being disingenuous (sadly a common problem) or that you don’t believe women and their experiences.”

See, you did it again.  You’re not talking about women’s experiences, you’re pretending to read men’s minds.

Comment #352: JMoore  on  07/06  at  09:33 AM

Oh, FFS!  A woman personally boycotting a man who literally sat at her elbow while she discussed:
*the death threats she gets (something they have in common)
*and the rape threats she also gets because she is a woman, speaking,
*and the ways in which their shared community hypersexualizes women attendees
        - making women less likely to attend
            ~because this makes women feel less than respected as contributors
                    ^which is a stated “problem that should be fixed” in the community

who then later learns, as did we all, that someone who had heard her spend ALL FUCKING DAY talking about the above:
*didn’t engage in conversation with her in public
*followed her to the elevator
*stated his acknowledgement that his upcoming statement had the possibility of being “taken the     wrong way”
      -then said it anyway
            ~which kind of made the woman who had just spent ALL FUCKING DAY talking about how to make women feel respected and welcome feel less than respected and unwelcome

and who hen responds to her having said something “publically”  to the effect of: “this one thing is kind of illustrative of my point.  Avoid doing stuff like this, because it makes women feel less than respected and unwelcome, and also is kind of scary, too.”

by piling on with a whole slew of entitled idiots who think their right to do whatever they damned well please is more important than having women feel comfortable around them, so women should just shut up about being uncomfortable already, because if women are never uncomfortable how will men like them ever get laid (seriously, if this weren’t so infuriating, it would be hilarious)

AND THEN who pulls the “other women have it much worse than you, and also shut up” manouever

is a completely reasonable response.

He should know better, but he doesn’t know better because knowing better would involve all sorts of inconvenient reflection and shit.  This is a poor recommendation for an intellectual. I have myself dismissed the findings of intellectuals who have shown similar laziness in their blind spots. 

But this is not just a reasoned issue.  He personally insulted her, a woman known to him, because it’s just easier if she shuts up about stupid girly shit like basic manners.  Yeah, she boycotted him. 

Comment #353: Heo  on  07/06  at  09:44 AM

Interesting how Linfame equates “getting something wrong once” with Dawkin’s racist, misogynistic, infantlizing, dishonest spew.  Must be nice to live in that delusional privileged candyland where it’s okay to be a huge part of the problem, and absolutely never suffer any fallout for it.

Dawkins will never see another penny of mine unless he finally gets the fact of my basic humanity through his hoover-dam thick privileged skull. 

And I really, truly don’t give a flying fuck if you don’t like it.  Go suck up to him. I’m sure he’ll pat you on the head and call you a good girl.

Comment #354: Rare Vos  on  07/06  at  09:46 AM

Yet another in the infinity of examples of men belittling women’s experiences.  Are men like Dawkins simply so unimaginative that they can’t put themselves in the place of someone else, someone who might be uncomfortable in a situation they themselves wouldn’t be bothered by?

Comment #355: Lexi  on  07/06  at  10:18 AM

Ugh.  This shit’s still going on?

And not one of our intentionally obtuse trolls has bothered to answer my question! 

Seriously, what is so fucking hard about NOT PROPOSITIONING WOMEN IN ELEVATORS?

Because that is what you’re fighting about.  Rebecca said that if you want more women at these conferences, a good strategy is to treat them with a bit more respect, say by not creeping them out by cornering them in elevators like I was last night, despite talking about my dislike of such attentions.

Gigantic shitstorm of men insisting that they have the right to proposition women in elevators because…evo psych…I won’t be censored!...sexism only counts if it’s actual violent rape…sexism only counts if it’s genital mutilation…sexism isn’t my problem so SHUT UP…c’mon and cut poor romantic creepy guys some slack…we get to be creepy because it doesn’t bother us when we’re creepy…why are you making such a big deal out of nothing…you’re paranoid and crazy!...nah nah nah not listening!

Seriously.  Rebecca said being a creep is off putting, so don’t do it.  And instead of saying, “oh, didn’t realize women hear be afraid of strangers on elevators.  Didn’t realize it comes off as creepy.  Sorry about that.  Won’t do it anymore/glad I never did that.”. we get the shitstorm of nonsense.

Tim, JMoore, JDub…please.  WHAT IS SOFUCKING HARD ABOUT AGREEING THAT ELEVATORS CAN BE SCARY PLACES FOR WOMEN SO YOU WON’T PROPOSITION THEM THERE, YOU’LL, AT A BARE MINIMUM, WAIT 60 SECONDS UNTIL THE DOORS ARE OPEN?

Cause that’s all Rebecca asked.  And it’s all the responses boil down to.  Women don’t like being propositioned in elevators because, rightly or wrongly, they are conditioned to be wary of strangers in elevators.  So don’t do that, okay?

And don’t spend 1000s of posts trying to deny, derail, and erase the request.  Just don’t do it.

WHAT’S SO FUCKING HARD ABOUT AGREEING NOT TO CREEP WOMEN OUT ON ELEVATORS.?  Because you’ve spent so many posts fighting it, there must be a reason—and a huge one—that makes the shitstorm response to a simple request so very, very necessary.

Comment #356: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/06  at  10:35 AM

If I’m stuck on an elevator with a woman who looks nervous (because of me, a pending interview, whatever), I’m not going to talk to her.  If she hasn’t been giving me That Look, I’m not going to hit on her (not going to hit on anyone:  I’m married) in an elevator or anywhere else.  I can diffuse the subjective threat someone thinks I pose by how I stand, where I stand, where I’m looking, my tone of voice, etc.  According to the Schrödinger’s Rapist essay, appearance and attire also determine threat level, so at least that author is willing to consider more variables than commenters will tolerate in this discussion. 

I think it’s the simplistic and dogmatic “don’t talk to/hit on women in these circumstances” that people like me aren’t going to buy, no matter what names you lob at us.  If I wanted to be told where and under what circumstances I’m allowed to talk to a woman, I’d move to Iran.

The idea, furthermore, that men who hit on women in isolated places are, if not rapists themselves, leveraging the fear of other men who are rapists in order to acquire sexual access that would otherwise not be available, which has been stated here repeatedly as an absolute certainty with no other evidence than a comedy sketch, is fucking delusional.

Comment #357: JMoore  on  07/06  at  10:41 AM

#357 -

OK, I will answer your questions.  Did you want me to address this one: 

“Seriously, what is so fucking hard about NOT PROPOSITIONING WOMEN IN ELEVATORS?”

Or have I already, to your satisfaction?

Comment #358: JMoore  on  07/06  at  10:44 AM

Caren, it looks like the answer from the trolls was, “Why should I have to control myself?  That’s your job.”  The problem, they don’t care.  They gleefully don’t care, and this is why they fail. 

This is why the atheist movement is small and easily dismissed.  One of the things people get from religion is a sense of community.  This was pointed out by someone, but I dont’ think on this thread, and I think it’s important.  Women are centrally important in church, even when they’re carefully excluded from spheres of real influence.  Churches are where they go for community and for comfort.  And skeptics expect them to give up belonging, community, and comfort because it’s rational; but how is it rational to back a group that takes so much away and gives back nothing but objectification and a heaping dose of ‘shut the fuck up?’  How many women are really going to make that choice?

And in my case, as an agnostic, why am I going to go to the trouble of leaving my house for that?  No fun, not worth the time.  It looks just as appealing to me as church, just in a different way, and that’s pretty damned unappealing.

Comment #359: Eileen  on  07/06  at  10:47 AM

Sorry, in case anyone is wondering what the hell the “Schrödinger’s Rapist essay” is, it’s this: 

http://tinyurl.com/yhsro69

Comment #360: JMoore  on  07/06  at  10:47 AM

Hmmm, link doesn’t work.

Comment #361: JMoore  on  07/06  at  10:51 AM

If I wanted to be told where and under what circumstances I’m allowed to talk to a woman, I’d move to Iran.

Yes, because being told that it’s dickish to do something that makes a great number of women feel threatened and uncomfortable, not to mention counterproductive if you’re concerned about why more women won’t come to your parties, is just like mobilizing the power of the state to control your behavior. 

It’s amazing the power we feminists have.  We can achieve with our mere disapproval and argumentation what the forces of oppression need a political structure and judiciary control, not to mention police forces, to do.

Comment #362: EG01  on  07/06  at  10:54 AM

If I wanted to be told where and under what circumstances I’m allowed to talk to a woman, I’d move to Iran.

Wow, so respecting something you’re hearing from actual women with these actual expereiences who are asking for men to stfu and listen and act like they care about what women have to say is just like being in a repressive, misogynist country where elite men get to decide the boundaries of sexual behavior?

Unbelievable.

Comment #363: Farron  on  07/06  at  10:56 AM

#363 -

If you’d take the time to read what I wrote, perhaps while copying it, you would see that I was talking about being told, not being compelled.  I was objecting to simple-minded dogma.  In fact, I even said so.

Comment #364: JMoore  on  07/06  at  10:57 AM

Yeah, EGO, I guess that’s why we need to be so carefully controlled.  Our power, we might abuse it!  Boners might not be accorded the attention and respect they deserve!

Comment #365: Eileen  on  07/06  at  10:57 AM

OK, that’s two reading comprehension failures.

Comment #366: JMoore  on  07/06  at  10:58 AM

Here’s a thought, JMoore: if three people in a row disagree with the meaning of what you wrote, the problem may not be in their reading, but in your writing.

You made a ridiculous, disingenuous comparison, and you’re getting mocked for it. 

And if you seriously think that being informed that doing something makes you dickish is the same as being commanded by the state not to do something, you have problems with understanding context that go far, far beyond reading comprehension.

Comment #367: EG01  on  07/06  at  11:02 AM

Taking a moment to 2nd and 3rd and 477th what EG01 and Farron, et al have so excellently expressed before. 

JMoore, if your wish to talk to whomever you want, however and whenever you want trumps your wish to have more women represented in your movement, then carry on.  Really.  We won’t call the police.  We’ll say we think you’re an asshole and avoid your company, but surely you know that free speech works in all directions, right? 

HOWEVER

If your wish is truly what the atheist sommunity has said is there wish: more people who agree with them around, and specifically a more representative sample of people who agree with them around.  Well, then, *stomp, stomp* “I’ll say whatever I want, and shut up about it” *doorslam*  is an illogical approach.

Comment #368: Heo  on  07/06  at  11:02 AM

JMoore thinks ladies can’t read, yet persists in typetypetyping in defense of his friendless erections.  Poor, poor boy, who can’t get the ladies to understand his needs.  Stupid, heartless ladies, to treat his erection so callously!  Oh, the tragedy of JMoore.  He has a penis!  Attention must be paid!

Comment #369: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:04 AM

Hell. 

“What the atheist community has said is their wish”

I get paid to correct stuff like that.  Shame.

Comment #370: Heo  on  07/06  at  11:05 AM

#368 -

And yet the writing was not only clear, but restated.  So, if you’re going to continue to argue with something I haven’t said, I’ll just chalk that up to intellectual cowardice.

Comment #371: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:05 AM

I remember this 1979 movie called “Starting Over”, with Jill Clayburgh, Candice Bergen and Burt Reynolds.  It’s about divorced and single people trying to get on with life after breakups.  The scene I am thinking of involves Clayburgh and Reynolds, who have never met, both walking to Bergen’s apartment for dinner.  It’s after dark in New York City, and on that side street there are no other pedestrians nearby.

Clayburgh is obviously staying alert about her surroundings.  Reynolds is on the other side of the street, but she senses that he may be tracking her.  When they get close to the apartment, he naturally crosses the street, and in doing so, he jumps over a pile of slush on the curb, ending up almost directly behind her.  Clayburgh explodes, doing everything everyone has told her to do to try not to get mugged and/or assaulted.  She yells and hollers.  She doesn’t hit him, though.  When it becomes clear they are both going to Bergen’s house for dinner, and when they go up to the apartment, Clayburgh is still shaken, and Reynolds is absolutely astounded, shocked, and yep, his feelings are hurt.

As I recall, Clayburgh is made to look nervous, a bit paranoid, and generally neurotic.  Reynolds looks like a bumbling doofus-y innocent.

I mean, duh.  If I were a man, I’d have been exactly aware of the possibility that I might scare a woman out there on the street.  I don’t know if I’d have said anything, but I do know I’d probably have either hurried up to get ahead of her (reducing the stalker factor) or slowed down to look at something, thereby increasing her safe zone.  And good god, I’d never have leaped up behind her like that.  Reynolds was ignorant, but I would totally expect him to be clued in to this type of situation for the rest of his damn life.

It’s minimum courtesy and awareness, and it matters.

Comment #372: Larkspur  on  07/06  at  11:07 AM

Yes! My ladybrain must be afraid of the penetrating power of JMoores turgid reasoning.

Comment #373: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:08 AM

I actually know the answer to the question.  I want our trolls to think, which is why I proposed it.

No, JMoore, you haven’t really answered why.  You’ve been given much more evidence than a comedy sketch.  In painful detail, with links and personal anecdotes and official police documentation, women have explained why elevators are not appropriate places for propositions from strangers.  When you’ve been told that women, rightly or wrongly, have been conditioned to be wary of strangers and find propositions in that location creepy, why can’t you agree to refrain from such behavior for the 60 or so seconds? 

That’s all Rebecca said.  When asked how to make a conference more friendly to women, she said don’t corner in elevators.  A shitstorm in defense of elevator cornering has ensued.  I’ve seen several posts by women stating as a result they’ll never attend an atheist conference.  Which rather proves Rebecca’s point—if you want to welcome women, don’t do this.

 


Why is it so damn important to insist that you retain the right to be a creep?

Comment #374: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/06  at  11:09 AM

#369 -

I am an atheist, but I’m not aware of being part of any movement.  I don’t see how socially awkward encounters would determine whether or not a woman would want to be an atheist. 

This is not a free speech issue.  No one is talking about government control of speech, except for three slightly dim people who are avoiding the point.

Comment #375: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:09 AM

You can, of course, do as you like, and I won’t lose any sleep over it, just as I will continue to chalk your ridiculous analogy up to misunderstanding the way analogies are supposed to work, and your refusal to actually engage with the issues feminists are discussing as an unwillingness to give up male dominance and privilege.

Won’t make your writing any better or your analogy any less silly, though.

Comment #376: EG01  on  07/06  at  11:10 AM

If you don’t even want to be told that we’d like men to not be creepy, then don’t fucking read what women have to say and own the fact that you just don’t care what women think. 

Comment #377: Farron  on  07/06  at  11:10 AM

Wait…  who brought up Iran?  I lack a penis, and so I forget.

Comment #378: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:11 AM

#373 -

I remember seeing that movie.  Reynolds’ character comes bounding across the street, which really does make him look like an assailant. 

But it’s worse than that.  The female character is subsequently shamed by Reynolds’ character for having yelled, as if she’s done something wrong.

Comment #379: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:12 AM

#377 -

Except that there are lots of other words there and you’re carefully avoiding them.  Objecting to the use of hyperbole as a form of illustration is just a cheap dodge on your part.

Comment #380: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:13 AM

Eileen - no, it’s worse than that.  Our silly ladybrains aren’t just afraid, they’re inferior intellectually because we can’t devine the real meaning behind the words he uses that mean something else. He can’t type a single post that says what he means it so say, and that’s our fault. damn girlbrainz!

Or, far more likely, he’s changing what he meant to say after getting his ass handed to him.  Backpeddaling and moving goal posts is manly donchaknow!

Comment #381: Rare Vos  on  07/06  at  11:14 AM

Sometimes hyperbole is inappropriate.

But maybe you just don’t understand context, since you can’t comprehend that sometimes otherwise reasonable actions are inappropriate due to the circumstances.

Comment #382: Farron  on  07/06  at  11:16 AM

Why am I not psychic?  Damn my weak lady-brain!  How will I please men if I can’t magically divine their true meaning at all times?  I have failed as a woman.

Comment #383: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:16 AM

The atheist community, the kind that go to conferences to talk about their atheism, consider themselves part of a movement.  They have stated, perhaps disingenuously, that they’d like to hear from women.  But, see, a bunch of them are assholes to the few women who actually show up, leaving women to think to themselves and communicate to their friends:  Hey!  Don’t go over there, that’s where they keep the assholes! 

“I don’t see how socially awkward encounters would determine whether or not a woman would want to be an atheist.”

No, you don’t.  Which is weird, because approximately 757,642 words explaining why that is have been expressed, often addressed to you directly here, but also to others elsewhere.  Even by dudes who like, understand why people avoid the company of those who treat them in ways they don’t wish to be treated. 

 

Comment #384: Heo  on  07/06  at  11:18 AM

#375 -

I haven’t faulted RW for anything.  Why should I?  But when she offers her advice, I don’t feel compelled to take it.  I think EG made a stupid mistake, and I understand why people might feel threatened, but saying that X is wrong at any time is just silly.  I wouldn’t do what EG did, but I don’t think it’s a universal wrong. 

As for evidence, no:  I haven’t received ANY evidence for Marcotte’s bizarre claim that men who approach women in isolated circumstances are hoping fear will ease the way to sex.  None.  So, unless you can read minds, you’re not going to be able to produce any.

Comment #385: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:18 AM

#382 -

How can I change what I meant?  It’s right there.  I was talking about dogma, not a police state.  It’s right there in black and white. 

But I can’t make people be honest, so let them run.

Comment #386: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:21 AM

Okay, so there’s this one time I’m waiting for the train, and there’s this really cute woman on the platform, obviously intelligent, seemingly in the mood to be entertained, and (yay!) also enjoying talking to me. And we’re going the same way. Daytime.

A few minutes later, the train shows up. I make sure to get on in front of her and grab a window seat. (All the seats are in pairs, facing forward.)

Why? Because duh, that provides an open seat next to me in case she wants it. She could choose to sit there, or in front of me, or behind me, or in some completely different part of the train. And if she took the seat next to me but got bored or creeped out, it would be easy for her to get up and move.

That should be the end of the story, kind of. Because non-creepiness is valid in its own right.

But yes, she did take that open seat next to me, we enjoyed the ride together, and we even had a nice dinner together the following week. Awesome! That dinner didn’t, as the expression goes, “go anywhere,” but my being pushy, creepy, intimidating, or presumptuous wouldn’t have helped that.

From which I gather one more data point in support of non-creepiness also being a pretty cool pickup principle, sometimes. But even if it weren’t, it’s just obviously the right way to behave. In the same vein, had my new friend had gotten on the train first and picked a window seat, I probably would have sat just across from it, depending on the circumstances, probably not directly next to her; why block an escape?

This really isn’t that hard, guys. Suggested rule: Play out the “what if she decides I’m boring, intrusive, or scary?” scenario, ask yourself what you’d want to do in that event if you were in her shoes, and make sure that action is super-easy for her to access. As a bonus, you only talk to people who are enjoying your company. Isn’t that cool?

Comment #387: catfood  on  07/06  at  11:22 AM

#385 -

Am I to believe that a woman who is an atheist will choose to become a believer, based on these events? 

Weird.

Comment #388: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:22 AM

“this makes women uncomfortable because it’s the behavior of a lot of actual creepers, maybe you should not do it if you don’t want to look like a creeper” is dogma?

Comment #389: Farron  on  07/06  at  11:23 AM

#383 -

I think I’ve stated pretty clearly how I might go about detecting and adapting to circumstances at #358, but everyone’s so busy being loudly stupid about what it said that the point is getting lost.

Comment #390: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:25 AM

#390 -

It’s dogmatic to insist that this will always make women uncomfortable.

Comment #391: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:26 AM

Words mean just what JMoore chooses them to mean.  Shoo, JMoore, we’ll never make you happy because we don’t have access to the special personal dictionary you keep stashed in your pants.

Comment #392: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:27 AM

JMore, why don’t you leave us alone and go troll TWOP and tell them how oppressive it is to be told what to think about TV shows.

Comment #393: Farron  on  07/06  at  11:27 AM

JTroll thinks he made a point!  So cute.

Comment #394: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:28 AM

JMoore (#392)

It’s dogmatic to insist that this will always make women uncomfortable.

Your objection is to a point no one is making.

Comment #395: A. Noyd  on  07/06  at  11:31 AM

#388 -

That’s the kind of adaptive behavior I was talking about.  I might make a hyperbolic comparison to the training provided to Syrian fighter pilots as opposed to Israeli ones, but that might confuse some people. 

Being sexually successful as a straight man consists of recognizing which women are attracted to you, engaging them, and not taking them out of their comfort zone.  Pursuing a woman who wants you is romantic.  Pursuing a woman who doesn’t want you is creepy.  You’re never going to change their minds in your favor, but you can change their minds against you if you push it.

Comment #396: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:32 AM

#396 -

Read #390.

Comment #397: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:33 AM

JTroll is now arguing with himself.

Comment #398: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:35 AM

#394 -

Show me where I’ve mentioned oppression.  That’s the straw man certain idiots are hiding behind even now.  I’ve been mocking what I’ve called silly dogma, which is very different from complaining about oppression.

Comment #399: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:36 AM

Oh jesus.  You are going to hang your hat on one generalized statment made AFTER you made your ridiculous assertion?

Comment #400: Farron  on  07/06  at  11:37 AM

#401 -

No, I’m going to stick to what I said, because I chose those words for a reason.  Straw men can’t change the words on the page.

Comment #401: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:39 AM

Farron, if JTroll wanted to be told where to hang his hat, he’d move to Iran.

Comment #402: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:40 AM

Am I to believe that a woman who is an atheist will choose to become a believer, based on these events?

OK, it’s pretty rich of you to accuse somebody else of reading comprehension problems.  What you’re being told, time and time again, is that women who are atheists will have no interest in participating in atheist organizations, conferences, and movements, due to experiences like this.  I’m an atheist.  My parents are atheists.  My grandparents were atheists.  Douchey men aren’t going to make me believe that there’re any gods.  But I sure as hell won’t go out of my way to make their acquaintance.

Now, here’s the problem with your writing.  Feminists are not saying men can’t approach women in elevators; we’re saying that they should not unless they want to be considered douches.  Similarly, the Iranian authorities are not saying that you cannot approach strange women; they’re saying that you may not, and that if you do, you will be punished.  Two entirely different things.

I also find it amusing that you feel that comparing douchey men to rapists is out of bounds, but comparing feminists to the Iranian authorities is totally A-OK.

Comment #403: EG01  on  07/06  at  11:40 AM

#404 -

re: reading comprehension

In comment #385, the first sentence of the third paragraph is responding to a sentence of mine, which appears just above.  I was responding to that.  And you’ll note the sentence of mine you’ve quoted is a question, a rather incredulous one.  So it should be obvious to you that I thought it was odd.

Comment #404: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:43 AM

#397 - That went way over your head, bro. My story is almost the exact opposite of the elevator story. Key point:

And if she took the seat next to me but got bored or creeped out, it would be easy for her to get up and move.

Elevators don’t work like that. Even if they did, Skepchick had already said out loud, repeatedly, that she wanted to be left alone. What everyone is trying in vain to tell you is that “adaptive behavior” in that scenario is to stay away, stare at the floor numbers blinking, and shut up. Or not getting into the elevator with a lone woman at 4am in the first place.

Comment #405: catfood  on  07/06  at  11:43 AM

#404-

“I also find it amusing that you feel that comparing douchey men to rapists is out of bounds, but comparing feminists to the Iranian authorities is totally A-OK.”

Annoyance is not assault, yet dogma is dogma.  What exactly is the problem you’re having here? 

Yes, I think it’s bad behavior as well.  Call it douchey, if you like.  I wouldn’t have done it. 

And yet what brought me here was AM’s bizarre assertion that non-rapists use the fear of rape to compel sex.  Still waiting for evidence on that score.

Comment #406: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:47 AM

Jdub @265:

But to say it’s the result of a pernicious attitude of sexism in the atheist community is taking things too far.

You’re pretending that the “it” here is Elevator Guy’s approach, and therefore that it’s unfair to blame all of atheist for EG. This is blatantly dishonest. As you’re well aware, the"it” we’re talking about here is the shitstorm of sexist assholery that poured out of the atheist community in response to Watson’s very mild statement about EG. Watson did not say “EG is an example of sexism in the atheist community”. She did not say “because of the pernicious attitude of sexism in the atheist community, this EG thing happened.”

I’m mildly insulted that you thought everyone would be so dumb as to miss that.

Comment #407: mythago  on  07/06  at  11:48 AM

Pursuing a woman who doesn’t want you is creepy.

No, acting creepy is creepy. If you take it as a given that any woman who isn’t interested will be creeped out by your advance, then you’re probably doing something very, very wrong.

Comment #408: grolby  on  07/06  at  11:51 AM

#406 -

Yes, elevators are different.  The only way to approach a woman in an elevator, if you must, is to make a wry comment about something, preferably a shared inconvenience, while not looking at her and not having your body oriented toward her (and certainly not standing between her and the door).  It has to be a total tossoff.  Do not say anything about her, it has to be like you’re talking to yourself. 

If she says nothing, you say nothing further.  If she laughs, you still don’t say anything until both of you are safely out the door.  If she says something in response, you can go into conversation mode or not.

Comment #409: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:51 AM

@JMoore (#398)

Post 390 doesn’t refute what I said.  It’s been acknowledged that early morning elevator propositions aren’t 100% guaranteed to make a woman uncomfortable.  So pretending that’s what’s being said is dishonest.  Care to address the actual point being made about women’s comfort levels and how to accommodate them?

Comment #410: A. Noyd  on  07/06  at  11:53 AM

The evidence is linked in the original post, you nit.

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Comment #411: Eileen  on  07/06  at  11:53 AM

JMoore @389—no, it is actually possible for a lady to continue to be an atheist in solitary splendor, in the privacy of her own brain, while shunning the company of creepy threatening dinguses. 

And as long as you don’t mind—or actively enjoy—public atheist spaces and public atheist gatherings being the property of men only, there’s no problem with that whatsoever.  Dingus away.

Comment #412: sophonisba  on  07/06  at  11:57 AM

#409 -

Could you tell me more about “acting creepy”?  I had thought it was subjective, but you’re talking about something objective.

Comment #413: JMoore  on  07/06  at  11:59 AM

@403 LOL, thanks for the laugh!

Comment #414: Farron  on  07/06  at  12:00 PM

#411 -

I’m not going to plough through this thread and find examples of the inanities I’ve been reading since yesterday.  Yes, someone may have acknowledged that, but they’d be in the minority.

Comment #415: JMoore  on  07/06  at  12:00 PM

Again, the evidence was the only thing being called for, and it was provided in the original post.  Reading comprehension:  It’s not just for ladies anymore!

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Comment #416: Eileen  on  07/06  at  12:01 PM

“What you’re being told, time and time again, is that women who are atheists will have no interest in participating in atheist organizations, conferences, and movements, due to experiences like this.”

This.

But, since you bring it up, can I see a reality in which a woman who lives in a community where she knows and cares about people who behave in insulting, dismissive ways towards her because she’s a woman, and believe things she finds misguided would choose to pretend to agreement with those beloved peoples’ beliefs rather than abandon that agreeable stance to openly adopt beliefs she finds more correct coming from another group of people who also behave in insulting, dismissive ways towards her because she’s a woman? 

Yeah, I can see that. 

And as mythago said, our response is to the giant hissy fit being thrown by a certain element in the atheist community at being told it would be better to treat women just like regular people.

Comment #417: Heo  on  07/06  at  12:02 PM

A lot of social scientists are going to be out of a job when JMoore informs them that the only way to understand patterns of behavior is to read individuals’ minds.  For the sake of the economy please, JMoore, wait until we have lower unemployment!

Comment #418: Farron  on  07/06  at  12:16 PM

#419 -

AM is making a claim about what people participating in the debate are thinking.  That requires some evidence.  And no, the blog post that Eileen is waving around like a bag of magic beans doesn’t address or support AM’s bizarre claims.

Comment #419: JMoore  on  07/06  at  12:36 PM

@JMoore (#416)

I’m not going to plough through this thread and find examples of the inanities I’ve been reading since yesterday.  Yes, someone may have acknowledged that, but they’d be in the minority.

I haven’t seen a single person saying that early morning elevator propositions “will always make women uncomfortable.”  Yet you think this is what the majority of people are saying.  So yes, if you want to show you’re not criticizing a strawman, you absolutely do need to quote the people who are saying that.  If it truly is the majority viewpoint, then finding several examples should be trivial.  Or aren’t you interested in making sure that you understand what’s being said to you?

Comment #420: A. Noyd  on  07/06  at  12:40 PM

This word, ‘bizarre.’  It does not mean what you think it means.

JTroll:  Wah wah wah I want evidence!
Whomever:  (presents evidence)
JTroll:  La la la I can’t hear you!

Comment #421: Eileen  on  07/06  at  12:44 PM

Linfame,

If she said everything that Dawkins said on any subject was automatically *wrong* I would correct her too.

If you want to boycott Amanda, go ahead.  Doesn’t look like you are, though.

Instead, you made the idiotic argument that because you think she was wrong about Duke, everything she ever says about anything else in that vein must be false.

And that is really, really stupid, sorry.

Comment #422: Ismone  on  07/06  at  12:51 PM

I’m not going to plough through this thread and find examples of the inanities I’ve been reading since yesterday.  Yes, someone may have acknowledged that, but they’d be in the minority.

Just want to chime in to point out that I’ve been reading this thread and all the Pharyngula ones and it doesn’t sound like we’ve been reading the same “inanities” at all.

Possibly this has something to do with my attitude that feminist commenters are presumptively rational people with legitimate points to make (and a reasonable understanding of context), rather than angry hysterical harpies of some kind who are just jumping on the poor menz and leaping to all kinds of crazy estrogen driven conclusions and indictments.

I think the former attitude certainly helps one to more accurately interpret the occasional bit of hyperbole, sarcasm or not-spelled-out-with-every-i-crossed-and-term-explicitly-defined-inline-as-if-writing-for-a-way-too-literal-computer-AI sentence. See, e.g., your ridiculously obtuse misreading [nonreading?] of the context around the word “atheist” in #369, which took like 9 posts to clear up.

I’d take that as good evidence that you might want to take a break from the keyboard and try re-reading some of the posts you think are problematic, but this time for comprehension. While you do that, it’ll be helpful to try acting like you are a rational person capable of understanding context, and not an overly literal computer program produced by a parser generator.

Comment #423: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  12:54 PM

#421 -

A number of people have insisted that that uncomfortability is WHY we ought not make such propositions, that doing so is douchey BECAUSE it upsets women.  This is WHY people are angry with me.  Yet you say this is not happening.  Just looking over this morning’s carnage, I see 354, 356, 357, 360, 375, and 406 making statements directly or indirectly that elevator propositions are bad, no exceptions. 

But if you’re going to be obtuse, no evidence will convince you.

Comment #424: JMoore  on  07/06  at  12:54 PM

But if you’re going to be obtuse, no evidence will convince you.

Words for the ages.

Comment #425: Eileen  on  07/06  at  12:56 PM

From the link, for your convenience, because I can’t help feeding a troll:

“The undetected rapists overwhelmingly use minimal or no force, rely mostly on alcohol and rape their acquaintances. They create situations where the culture will protect them by making excuses for them and questioning or denying their victims.

“In fact, these rapists may put the victim in a position where she is so intoxicated or terrified or just isolated and defeated that she never even says “no,” and because the culture overwhelmingly refuses to call these tactics what they are, even the victims themselves may be unable to call it rape for a very long time afterward, if ever.”

“In the course of 20 years of interviewing these undetected rapists, in both research and forensic settings, it has been possible for me to distill some of the common characteristics of the modus operandi of these sex offenders. These undetected rapists:
• are extremely adept at identifying “likely” victims, and testing prospective victims’ boundaries;
• plan and premeditate their attacks, using sophisticated strategies to groom their victims for attack, and to isolate them physically;
• use “instrumental” not gratuitous violence; they exhibit strong impulse control and use only as much violence as is needed to terrify and coerce their victims into submission;”

Comment #426: Farron  on  07/06  at  01:02 PM

#424 -

#369?  I think you mean #376.  The use of ‘atheist’ in #369 was already garbled, and not by me. 

I don’t think feminists are irrational harpies, but I have met some dense and dishonest people on this thread.  Are they feminists?  Who knows?  Look at Eileen’s last post, for instance.  It’s that kind of dim straw-manning that led me to ignore her.  AM, in fact, used that link to support a different point.  Can you see why I would want to be very literal with these idiots around? 

AM accused the people on the other side of the debate of either using or justifying the use of fear to compel sex.  She said it more than once.  Then, she came into her own comments section and reaffirmed it.

Comment #427: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:04 PM

#427 -

Your quote talks about rapists.  It even says so. 

AM is saying, at #239, that men *who aren’t rapists* use isolated situations to exploit fears of rape to compel sex that otherwise wouldn’t happen. 

This is your idea of supporting evidence?

Comment #428: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:08 PM

But if you’re going to be obtuse, no evidence will convince you.

Comment #429: Eileen  on  07/06  at  01:10 PM

And here I thought “atheist” was one of the terms I didn’t garble in that typo-riddled clause.  I guess when I said “atheist community” in response to a topic about a community issue among convention-going atheists, I was being all illogical.

Or maybe, and this is pure conjecture now, maybe somebody has been coming at this discussion with slightly less than ideal expectations of purpose of the discussion.

Oh, that’s probably not even fair.

Chicks, right?  I mean, go figure!

Comment #430: Heo  on  07/06  at  01:14 PM

The studies quoted in the blog post refer to the use of culture, alcohol, and violence to commit rape.  AM isn’t talking about that.  She makes it clear that she’s talking about coercion by someone who is still “willing to take no for an answer,” and the use of fear of rape. 

Three quotes: 

1. Denying the difference between flirting and cornering women in hopes that the implication of fear will grease the wheels for you getting your dick wet.  Claiming that introducing a whiff of coercion and fear into a situation is okay as long as you’re willing to take no for an answer at the end of the day.

2. In sum, men who corner women know what they’re doing. And yes, they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid.  Rebecca may not have put it that way, but being a mean ol’ feminist bitch, I’m happy to say it.

3. J, cornering women doesn’t happen in a vacuum.  Men who do it may not be rapists, but they let the knowledge that some are rapists linger in the air for women to consider when composing their responses.  That you don’t believe this either indicates that you’re being disingenuous (sadly a common problem) or that you don’t believe women and their experiences.  Either way, major league assholery. But if you’re not going to believe women, why not believe the guys who write “It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia”?  They have penises and know all about The Implication strategy of hitting on women.

As you can see, she is indeed citing a comedy sketch as ‘proof’ of this phenomenon.

Comment #431: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:16 PM

  Just looking over this morning’s carnage, I see 354, 356, 357, 360, 375, and 406 making statements directly or indirectly that elevator propositions are bad, no exceptions.

Wow. Just checking out the first of those, #354 (posted by Heo at 9:44, just to make sure we’re on the same page), I’m not sure I even see the word ‘elevator’ in there. What I DO see is about a mile and a half of freaking context and explanation about what exactly was fucked up and sexist about this particular gentleman’s whole chain of actions.

How in Cthulhu’s Geometrically Unlikely Outhouse do you get “elevator propositions are bad, no exceptions” from that?!!

Really. Spell it out. I’d like to see the “reasoning” here.

Comment #432: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  01:16 PM

I’m going to go point by point with you.

1. The undetected rapist uses these strategies to commit rape knowing that they will most likely get away with it because many people aren’t willing to identify their strategies as purposeful, predatory behavior.

2.  Much of society does indeed ignore that these behaviors are purposefula nd predatory, and instead questions women’s behavior and puts the burden on them to control men’s behavior.

3.  This creates an atmosphere where women are conditioned to rely on a variety of contradictory and not always successful survival techniques, having to constantly assess a situation for possible danger, and often second guessing ourselves.  Some women are hyper aware of this, some are perfectly comfortable in these situations.  But many live with it as something we are aware of.

4.  AM at #239 is pointing out that plenty of men are also aware of this.  She allows that some men willing to take advantage of it MAY NOT BE rapists. 

So what is your argument to the contrary? LA LA LA I don’t believe hundreds of women?  Or just, men: they don’t do bad things except the bad ones we can call rapists!

Comment #433: Farron  on  07/06  at  01:20 PM

#433 -

... except that #354 specifically references RW’s advice? 

Is it possible that you aren’t very familiar with the controversy?

Comment #434: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:21 PM

#369?  I think you mean #376.  The use of ‘atheist’ in #369 was already garbled, and not by me.

No. I mean #369.  By Heo at 11:02. Which clearly discusses the issue as relating to open participation in the atheist community. The latter phrase is used explicitly.

to which you replied:

I am an atheist, but I’m not aware of being part of any movement.  I don’t see how socially awkward encounters would determine whether or not a woman would want to be an atheist.

Obtusely twisting the issue into something about being atheist qua being atheist.

And why? Because you didn’t bother to understand the context of this entire discussion? Because you don’t care about participating in the “atheist community” so why should chicks care either? I don’t really care. Fail on your part any way you slice it.

Just learn to read. Especially learn to read for comprehension even when a woman wrote it. That seems to be about 90% of the whole issue here.

Comment #435: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  01:24 PM

#434 -

1. Yes. 

2. Yes. 

3. Yes. 

4. No, she’s talking about a similar, but different, phenomenon and laying it at everyone else’s door, not just the rapists in a group of studies. 

AM cited the blog post to support a different, but related contention (i.e., that men pretend not to recognize subtle “no’s”), which should have been obvious because it comes right after that sentence.

Comment #436: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:25 PM

#436 -

I have no way of knowing if a poster is female or not, so you know where you can stick your accusations. 

What you see as obtuse is my way of saying “where else are you going to go?”  You’re an atheist.  You’re with us, organized or not. 

But I did leave out a hyphen.

Comment #437: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:27 PM

I forgot the most important part, which is the conclusion.  It doesn’t matter whether you think non-rapists take advantage of The Implication or not.  But when you and so many other presumably non-rapists don’t respond to Watson’s statement with annoyance, offense or embarassment that a guy could be so rude/potentially predatory, you are helping the undetected rapists stay undetected and keep raping.  When you care so much about the dudely right to hit on women whenever you like that you spend all your time making excuses for behavior a woman has called creepy, you’ve sent a message to those undetected rapists that they can use that behavior to isolate and frighten women because the first reaction will be to make excuses for him and to question the woman.

Comment #438: Farron  on  07/06  at  01:32 PM

Re: #438 “What you see as obtuse is my way of saying “where else are you going to go?”  You’re an atheist.  You’re with us, organized or not.”


Woooooooow!  That doesn’t make your argument worse by a long shot at ALL.

/sarcasm

Comment #439: Heo  on  07/06  at  01:38 PM

I’m kind of proud of myself that, even though I read about this situation at the Friendly Atheist first, I ended up changing my mind on some of his points after reading this post.  On the one hand, I don’t think I agree that just because the Ms. McGraw’s blog post was public, that the forum to confront her at included a speech at that conference was all that OK.  At the same time, though, I’m tired of people making excuses for stupid behavior by telling the person who was *reasonably* afraid that she should have the open mind to have the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe he wasn’t really propositioning her for sex!  Maybe he really did want some coffee with her and some nice Little Debbie’s donut sticks, too.  Are you kidding?

Maybe that guy who looked like he was breaking into that other guy’s car wasn’t really trying to break into his car.  Maybe he just wanted to look through his CD collection.  He saw that the car owner owns a Jesus and Mary Chain album, and he wanted to see what more cool stuff he owned.

Maybe that woman who was found to have drowned her kids to please her boyfriend really did have a black guy take off with them.  I mean, some black guy randomly kidnapping some white woman’s kids in the South and expecting to get away with it (no racism in that, whatsoever!)—that’s totally likely.

And I liked the guy in the newest Watson-related Friendly Atheist thread who made a sarcastic analogy between rape statistics of men raping women and statistics concerning the number of crimes committed by black people.  There’s no unexamined racism in that tortured phrase.  NOPE.

How naive are you people?  If he genuinely wanted coffee with her, why is he asking at 4 in the morning?  Why couldn’t he have asked before noon, when NORMAL PEOPLE have coffee?  Was he fucking stupid?  Why is anyone in a situation like that expected to have the time and the peace of mind required to give that guy the benefit of the doubt? 

“Oh, look!  This guy has a knife to my throat!  Maybe he isn’t threatening my life!  Maybe he just wants to show how sharp and shiny it is!  Let’s ask him if he got it at Macy’s, too! :D”

Mehta quoted Marcotte as saying that she called him a sexist paternalist.  It’s obvious, however, that she was saying that he was engaging in sexist paternalism.  There’s a distinct difference.  There’s no name-calling, for starters.

All I know is, as a black woman in her late 20s who plays some video games with a lot of guys, I’m getting tired of practically being asked to apologize for being a feminist and accepting basic feminist concepts to these guys, such as the fact that no, it’s not Rihanna’s fault for getting beat up by Chris Brown.  How is propositioning someone for sex in an elevator at 4am not creepy?  I need some of you “confused” men to explain that to me.

I don’t want anyone hitting on me to begin with (especially since such people are almost never sincere), never mind hitting on me in an enclosed space really late at night.  Who else does that except potential rapists and all around morons?  I’m tired of seeing socially inept men make excuses for their stupid behavior on the Internet, and expecting everyone else to baby them and give them multiple chances to fuck up.  I’m also getting tired of seeing women defend them, too.  Most people in the world know how to act.  That did not happen in that situation.  I don’t see where the debate is, there.  I think the debate only lies in the fallout.  I don’t think anything *wrong* happened, but I think keeping the conversation to the blogs would’ve been more fair.  On the other hand, though, bringing it out to Real Life certainly forces everyone to think about it a lot more, doesn’t it?

Comment #440: Linda Binda  on  07/06  at  01:41 PM

#439 -

And now we’re back to “the terrorists are emboldened by [insert Democrat’s innocuous statement here]” kind of arguments. 

I seriously doubt that some dumb animal needs my encouragement to act like a dumb animal.  I think conversations like this are useful in establishing licit behaviors, so that predatory behaviors are more readily recognized.

Comment #441: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:42 PM

... except that #354 specifically references RW’s advice?

Um. Ok. But you know that neither RW’s advice nor the paraphrase in #354 amount to “elevator propositions are bad, no exceptions”*.

Once again, show your work here. So far you’re not really making the case that you’re not just really, really inept at reading comprehension.

I mean, I guess you’re referring to this:

“this one thing is kind of illustrative of my point.  Avoid doing stuff like this, because it makes women feel less than respected and unwelcome, and also is kind of scary, too.”

For the benefit of the comprehension impaired, I’m going to point out that “avoid doing stuff like this” in full context means something like “avoid hitting on women in creepy ways, you know, if you actually care about women’s feelings or really even if you just care about actually having a marginally successful interaction with a woman sometime.”

—-
* I’ll hasten to add that I’m not even sure why I’m feeding your trolling on this in the first place. To a first and probably second order approximation, “don’t hit on people in elevators” is really good advice if you don’t want to be creepy.  The logic of feeling the need to defend to the last breath the privilege of yourself and men everywhere to hit on women in a place that most people spend like 45 seconds at a time, maybe a dozen or so times a day in really escapes me. Still, if you find yourself in situations where this rather tricky and ephemeral context by some miracle isn’t creepy or manipulative, and you feel you can accurately judge that, I feel confident judging the consensus to be that you’re welcome to go for it.

Comment #442: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  01:42 PM

You’re an atheist.  You’re with us, organized or not. 

So it’s okay to make large numbers of women feel uncomfortable at atheist conventions because they can still be atheists in private?  Truly, you are on the side of the good on this one!

Comment #443: Farron  on  07/06  at  01:45 PM

Just looking over this morning’s carnage, I see 354, 356, 357, 360, 375, and 406 making statements directly or indirectly that elevator propositions are bad, no exceptions.

Notice that you’re changing what you claim people are telling you.  Before it was elevator propositions “will always make women uncomfortable.”  Now you’re saying it’s “elevator propositions are bad, no exceptions.”  I’m challenging you over the former.  If you would like to say you were wrong about that and are changing your claim about what people are telling you to the latter, you’ll have to state that explicitly.  Otherwise, defend the claim I’m disputing and avoid goalpost shifting.

That said, while I realize you might have intended some of these as evidence for the latter claim, let’s look at your examples in light of whether they show people saying elevator propositions “will always make women uncomfortable.”
  354: No idea what you’re seeing in this that supports you.  You’ll have to quote it.
  356:  This post refutes your claim: “...can’t put themselves in the place of someone else, someone who might be uncomfortable in a situation…” (emph. added)
  357: This post also refutes your claim: “...what is sofucking hard about agreeing that elevators can be scary places for women…” (emph. added, caps omitted)
  360: Again, you’ll have to quote what you think supports you here.
  375: This one generalizes, but does not say, or even imply, that discomfort with elevator propositions is some sort of universal.
  406: Again, no idea what you’re seeing that supports you.

You seem to be reading imaginary absolutes into generalized statements.  I can see why you might do that; you apparently think absolutes (or something close) are necessary before one can justifiably ask for a man to change his behavior and people are clearly asking men to change their behavior.  But no one arguing against you agrees with that threshold; the actual majority opinion is that one needs far fewer than near-absolute numbers of women feeling discomfort before it’s enough to say avoiding elevator propositions is better behavior than indulging in them.

But if you’re going to be obtuse, no evidence will convince you.

Careful you don’t affirm the consequent here.  Not being convinced by your evidence cannot prove that I’m being obtuse.  There’s always the possibility that you are wrong and your evidence is unconvincing on that basis.

So, can you support the claim that people are saying elevator propositions “will always make women uncomfortable” or not?

Comment #444: A. Noyd  on  07/06  at  01:48 PM

#443 -

The reason you’re “feeing [my] trolling” is because it’s important to you to appear you have a point. 

RW says that this stuff scares women and makes no exceptions.  Yeah, I think I already said that.

Comment #445: JMoore  on  07/06  at  01:51 PM

What you see as obtuse is my way of saying “where else are you going to go?”  You’re an atheist.  You’re with us, organized or not.

Uh. Yeah. That’s kind of the problem. That obtuse misreading/redirect/non-sequitur can in no way be read as any kind of coherent reply to #369, or the concerns about women’s participation (physically, in person, face-to-face) which represents the background of this ENTIRE DISCUSSION.


With context, “where else are you going to go?  You’re an atheist.  You’re with us, organized or not,” translates to “Who cares if you don’t feel comfortable at events you’d otherwise like to go to and all these other guys claim they’d like to make more welcoming? I don’t care about going to those things. Why should you? You’re still probably gonna be atheists even if you can’t go out for beers without getting your butt pinched. So there.” 

I can’t help but feel that you might have put that much more succinctly as: “So what, bitches?”

Are you going to stop digging sometime? I only ask from morbid curiosity.

Comment #446: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  01:56 PM

#445 -

“You seem to be reading imaginary absolutes into generalized statements.”

And you seem to be reading colloquialisms as boolean operators.  Commenters have repeatedly and vehemently denied my assertion, and other’s assertions, that EG approaching RW might be understandable.  They have not done so with the semantic rigor you are applying, which makes your approach tendentious.

Comment #447: JMoore  on  07/06  at  02:03 PM

RW says that this stuff scares women and makes no exceptions.  Yeah, I think I already said that.

“This stuff” referring to, of course, whatever kind of contextually creepy (scary) behavior. So yeah, “creepy stuff is creepy” is tautological. No exceptions. Congratulations on a brilliant observation.

Or were you going to enlighten us in some more depth on your own twisted misreadings of RW or other commenters clear intent?

Comment #448: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  02:04 PM

#447 -

Your first paragraph contradicts your second.  You say my statement can’t be read as a coherent reply.  Then you paraphrase it as a reply to Heo’s final paragraph in #369. 

Pick one, please.

Comment #449: JMoore  on  07/06  at  02:07 PM

#449 -

What an idiot.  RW is saying that this stuff is creepy, so don’t do it.  That was her point. 

The statement only turns to shit when we run it through you.

Comment #450: JMoore  on  07/06  at  02:09 PM

JMoore - Not Getting It, In Denial & Being Loud About It.

Sit down, man, you’re a bloody tragedy.”

Comment #451: Smartpatrol  on  07/06  at  02:16 PM

Seriously, you can paraphrase any definition into a tautology because it establishes an equivalence. 

This page is taking 2 - 3 min. to load each time, so fuggit:  I’m out.

Comment #452: JMoore  on  07/06  at  02:16 PM

Commenters have repeatedly and vehemently denied my assertion, and other’s assertions, that EG approaching RW might be understandable.

If by “might be understandable” you mean “in the most generous light, EG might have just been a clueless male-privileged moron who chose a time and place to approach RW that maximized his own comfort and convenience while completely disregarding RW’s comfort, convenience, explicitly stated wishes to be left alone,” then, yeah, I guess you could say his actions might be understandable. I defy you to find a comment here that actually entirely rules that possibility out.

On the other hand, YOU have to acknowledge that there are other possibilities too, even post hoc:

- that EG was a creepy dude either deliberately or instinctively trying to run “the Implication.”
- that EG was an actual rapist [wannabe] who just ‘aborted the mission’ for whatever reason.

Any of those three interpretations are completely consistent with EGs behavior. And I haven’t seen anyone declare that he actually WAS a rapist (as opposed to “maybe, who can tell, it was certainly creepy though”).

Of course, my own take on these threads is that I don’t even think anyone (incl. e.g., Amanda Marcotte) is actually especially concerned with EG per se. AFAIK, there’s no effort whatsoever to identify him or anything remotely like.  There’s a certain amount inevitable speculation about what he might have been thinking or trying to do, but I’d say 90% of that is actually from the dude contingent trying to explain why dudes should always be given the benefit of the doubt and cut slack and stuff.

Everyone else is just talking about why the outward behavior seemed creepy, why that kind of thing is unhelpful inasmuch as anyone is interested in welcoming more women to atheist events, and how well-meaning men can be more conscious of this kind of stuff.

Comment #453: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  02:20 PM

Shorter JMoore:  “Run Away!

Comment #454: Smartpatrol  on  07/06  at  02:20 PM

@448—who cares if it’s understandable?  Seriously, that is not what the controversy was about.  The controversy is that RW recounted an incident at a conference in which a guy propositioned her in an elevator (after admitted that he knew it was inappropriate to do so) and suggested that men who want women to feel more welcome at their conferences not proposition them in elevators or otherwise treat them in creepy ways, and a shitstorm ensued.  People felt the need to defend the (self-confessed) inappropriate behavior and attack both the advice and the character of the woman (who was asked to speak about how to get more women to participate in this particular community). 

If you don’t know that a behavior might be seen as creepy, and then someone tells you that it might be seen as creepy, and hundreds of other people agree that it might be seen as creepy, you now know that behavior might be seen as creepy.  You want to defend it, fine.  You want to engage in it, fine.  But you’re on notice that many people will find it creepy.

Comment #455: Kit-Kat  on  07/06  at  02:25 PM

Your first paragraph contradicts your second.  You say my statement can’t be read as a coherent reply.  Then you paraphrase it as a reply to Heo’s final paragraph in #369.
Pick one, please.

Fair enough.

Either your response was

- a complete non-sequitur, or
- offensively dismissive.

Take your pick. Actually, I think it might be both. It was certainly dismissive. I guess the question is whether or not you actually understand the original point well enough to be deliberately and specifically dismissive or whether you failed to comprehend but decided to just be dismissive on general principles.

Comment #456: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  02:25 PM

What an idiot.  RW is saying that this stuff is creepy, so don’t do it.  That was her point.

YES. Creepy stuff is creepy, so don’t do it, guys.

Aaaand…?

How do we get from that rather inoffensive little suggestion to this Iranian level absoluteness you’ve been going on about seeing in every other comment?

Comment #457: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  02:27 PM

Well, I wrote this before JMoore ran away, but whatever.

JMoore (#448)

And you seem to be reading colloquialisms as boolean operators.  Commenters have repeatedly and vehemently denied my assertion, and other’s assertions, that EG approaching RW might be understandable.  They have not done so with the semantic rigor you are applying, which makes your approach tendentious.

I’m merely holding you to your first claim, which was: “It’s dogmatic to insist that this will always make women uncomfortable.”  If you cannot prove that anyone (much less, per your later amendment, “the majority”) is making the claim that elevator propositions “will always make women uncomfortable,” then you should do the honest thing and take back that accusation.

Now you are attempting to introduce a third claim (that commenters “have…denied…that EG approaching RW might be understandable”) which is not relevant to the claim I’m asking you to defend.  Thus I’m going to ignore it and ask once again: can you support the claim that people are saying elevator propositions “will always make women uncomfortable” or not?  I’d like to see you come up with actual quotes that saying this.

Comment #458: A. Noyd  on  07/06  at  02:36 PM

(Clarifying that by “actual rapist” in 454 I wasn’t trying to minimize the er, implications of someone “running the implication.” Just trying to distinguish the two cases. Is there a term maybe? “Implicit rapist” vs. “[explicit] rapist” or something?)

Comment #459: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  02:37 PM

@ #453: JMoore
See ya!  Next time, instead of attempting some kind of exegetical blog-comment project, why not just participate in a discussion like a human being?  Micro-parsing everything as it pertains to the defense of your honor, logic, manhood, or whatever, is a waste of everyone’s time.

Comment #460: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/06  at  02:38 PM

Whoops, that last line should read “actual quotes saying this.”

Comment #461: A. Noyd  on  07/06  at  02:38 PM

And you seem to be reading colloquialisms as boolean operators.

I’m not actually sure what the hell JTroll is referring to here, but in any case, what is wrong with that?

Is JTroll only to be communicated with through the use of painstakingly crafted boolean logic? He is incapable of understanding ordinary colloquial language?

It certainly explains a lot. (But note, JTroll: your failure to comprehend informal language doesn’t give you the ability to assign whatever meaning you please to people. Instead, you should probably try to read more carefully, listen when others correct you, and if you continue to fail - stop trying.)

Comment #462: jack lecou  on  07/06  at  02:44 PM

“This page is taking 2 - 3 min. to load each time, so fuggit:  I’m out.”

Maybe there IS a God. :D

*rimshot*

Also, point of advice: the post #s change all the time, so why don’t you quote the comments line by line more next time?  Or maybe that was why your arguments were pathetically obtuse?

Comment #463: Linda Binda  on  07/06  at  03:11 PM

Wait…  who brought up Iran?  I lack a penis, and so I forget.

What, you can’t jot notes on the back of your hand like everyone else?

- P-i-a-T-Mine fits a bloody thesis, baby-o-R.

Comment #464: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/06  at  04:30 PM

Molly, was I misreading your comment? (Farron @ 151) (jeez, this is getting to be a long thread).

Maybe. Watson’s description of the incident in the video was pretty bare-bones; not coincidentally, much—maybe most—of the weighing in by her supporters (including you) has had to spell out some context, or subtext as to why Watson’ disgust/fear/anger was not misplaced.

In fact, what Elevator Boy did that was so bad isn’t easily reducible to a sound-bite, nor is it really there in the original video.

No, to understand what happened, you have to do freaking homework. Read a few rather long blog posts, many of them about people you’ve never heard of (e.g., who in reverse-menstruating, super-absorbent Maxi-Hell is Stef McGraw and why should I care?  . . . wait, I don’t care. Seriously, couldn’t care less. Yet there I was, reading about her as if I had nothing better to do. And the rest of the blog posts as well). Who’s going to do that? (Other than me, the world’s worse manager of my own time.)

The only real clue in the video that Elevator Boy acted like a prize asshole was the fact that the woman describing the incident was monumentally pissed off about it. Supporting or disputing her seems to hinge on whether you trust her judgement about what happened to her; since Watson generally comes off as a reasonable, reliable observer, it’s not illogical to suppose that those disputing her version are doing so because they have a problem with all women’s versions of their own experiences (particularly considering that the only other witness, Elevator Boy, has not come forth to dispute her version either).

Comment #465: Molly, NYC  on  07/06  at  05:30 PM

Is JTroll only to be communicated with through the use of painstakingly crafted boolean logic? He is incapable of understanding ordinary colloquial language?

He’s not even a fun troll.

Comment #466: junk science  on  07/06  at  05:34 PM

Since JTroll has drowned out all of the other trolls, and never responded to my point (again, he and Tim both ignored me, I feel unspecial), let me restate for other less prolific trolls to pounce on:

One thing that would improve the odds of women not getting raped would be if women’s boundaries were not constantly and consistently eroded by disrespectful people, and if when it happened, it were taken seriously.

Because what you are doing is encouraging women “not to overreact” to behavior you deem safe.  I and several others have pointed out that controlling behavior like that is a hallmark of rapists, and that submitting to such behavior paints a target on your back.

So, actually, better boundaries and more respect for boundaries does reduce rape.  Because recognizing boundaries mean recognizing the humanity of others.  And doing that, and having stronger norms about boundary-respecting would make rapists’ behavior all the more abnormal, and thus, all the easier for us to recognize and punish.

 

Comment #467: Ismone  on  07/06  at  06:33 PM

This was greased by a political strategy known as Calvinball—-one that the right is really good at, by the way—-where you make up brand new rules of discourse that were previously unknown and then chastise the target for breaking the rule that didn’t exist before because you just made it up.

Wait, so neurotypicals DO do this?  It’s not just my imagination?

Comment #468: Alex Weaver  on  07/06  at  06:33 PM

Asking to have coffee is now cold propositioning for sex?

I know that’s the obvious implication, but what, are we in a world where people can’t make come-ons at all?

Can’t we focus on how it was an inappropriate place and time, looking at why the context said she wouldn’t be interested; rather than just saying that he asked her for sex?

That puts me annoyed that you’d blow it up out of proportion from what she said and even changing what he said.  How does this help your point that there was a huge crowd of sexist gits, and even an atheist celeb was on the wrong side of the issue at the start?

Comment #469: Crissa  on  07/06  at  06:57 PM

What the guy in the elevator did is easily reduced to a soundbyte:  He tried to come onto someone was not in a situation amiable to come-ons.

Comment #470: Crissa  on  07/06  at  07:00 PM

What an idiot.  RW is saying that this stuff is creepy, so don’t do it.  That was her point.
YES. Creepy stuff is creepy, so don’t do it, guys.
Aaaand…?
How do we get from that rather inoffensive little suggestion to this Iranian level absoluteness you’ve been going on about seeing in every other comment?


And there’s my question again, jack lecou.  Why the fuck is it so damn hard to hold off propositioning women for the 60 seconds or so you are isolated in an elevator?

Short of wommenz ain’t shit, I ain’t censoring myself for no one, feminism is only for women, and SHUT UP I LIKE MY UNEARNED MALE PRIVILEGE—what else besides the Patriarchy could possibly stir up this
shit storm?

I’m happy enough to admit I said don’t proposition in elevators ever.  It’s an asshole move.  I did not say all women were annoyed or scared.  I did not say it should be illegal.  It’s not only threatening, but it’s a failure to respect women as humans. 

And that’s what pisses them off even more.  We will call them assholes if they don’t change their behavior, and they really really don’t want to change their behavior, even just for 60 seconds at a time.

 

 

Comment #471: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/06  at  07:05 PM

Hey Ismone!

The menfolk have already explained that you are over reacting, so why bring any facts into this?

It’s like you expect them to listen to you and change their behavior, and that’s just too much for any woman to ask!

/troll.

that’s actually the answer to why this is such a shit storm.  They don’t want to respect women’s boundaries and treat them as equals.  And they don’t want to so much they’ve had an absolute shitfit over a mild rebuke and common sense suggestion.

Comment #472: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/06  at  07:13 PM

A well-earned rape, for the nerve of negotiating to move about a hotel, in which she had booked a room, at that hour!

Caution: broad generalizations ahead.

So I was thinking about Schrodinger’s Rapist, and the logic of being wary of men in elevators, last night while I was out for my cardio walk. It struck me that if I were grabbed and raped off the street while I was having my cardio walk, chances are decent it would actually be taken seriously. I mean, no, the chances that ANY rape would be taken seriously is abysmal, but compared to other rape victims, the lady grabbed by a stranger off the street where she was just trying to take her evening jog stands a decent chance of being recognized as a victim.

I started thinking about why this is, and it’s because we recognize pretty much now that women have business being out taking a jog alone. People might say “the lady was just trying to go for a jog” in the same way as they might say “the lady was just trying to get her grocery shopping done” or “the lady was just trying to get her windows washed” or “pick up her kids from school” or whatever. My point being, it’s something in the ordinary that we pretty much accept that women have a right to do. 100 years ago this was not the case, and a woman alone even in a well-lit decent part of town, if it were after dark, would be “asking for it”. Just by being outside the house after dark. At another time she would have “deserved it” for wearing pants, or not wearing stays.

So I think you can track what society (or individuals, really) think women have business doing by what situations attract the most rape or harassment apology and excusing. We may have progressed as a culture to mostly pretty much sorta believing women have the right to be by ourselves in the daylight, drive cars places, travel alone in “safe” countries and conveyances, having our own hotel rooms in “good” hotels, going unchaperoned to tame social gatherings, and even sometimes in the right part of town, jog by ourselves at night. But there’s still a lot of stuff nonfeminists really don’t believe women have any business doing, and that means if women get raped doing those things, they deserved it.

And as we can see from the blowback against RW, there’s a large and vocal segment of atheist culture that doesn’t believe a woman has any business staying up late drinking in a hotel, like she was an actual person or something.

Comment #473: kristin  on  07/06  at  07:39 PM

Rare Vos: I don’t give a fucking fuck about you. Go fuck yourself with a rusty knife. Sideways. Hard. Because of course stating that Dawkins could admit his comments were wrong and sexist and his privelege was showing is sucking up to him Yes, I must be “part of the problem"or a gender traitor if the opinion to boycott him as a “feminist “thing to do seems idiotic, provided he admits his wrong. Or you know, if I just want to read some fucking book about evolution!  And really, this is why Marcotte (and her loyal minions) is such a dishonet coward whose credibility (to me and again I don’t give a fuck about what you Rave Vos, an unknown shit on the internet thinks) is up there with ‘that of Kathryn Walker: anyone who even disagrees with you, like say in the Lacrosse case,  is labelled a rape-apologist and specifically, any woman who disagrees is labelled an anti-feminist (or Sister Punisher is the favorite new term). Fuck you.

Comment #474: Linfame  on  07/06  at  08:15 PM

And Ismone: maybe you have reading comprehension cupcake. I didn’t say everything Marcotte says is wrong, I specifically said how people can take her seriously is mind-boggling. Seee the difference sugar? One would be stating I think everything she says if the opposite of truth or facts, the other would be saying that this person’s credibility is so low I might as well ignore it and look for opinions from someone else (anyone really who can admit their mistakes and not labelled dissenters apologists at the drop of a hat ). And I did boycott Marcotte up until Mehta talked about how he was labelled a “sexist paternalist” for thinking RW should have not call McGraw in public. Which is the standard Marcotte strategy: anyone who disagrees with me is this or that.

Comment #475: Linfame  on  07/06  at  08:27 PM

Rare Vos: I don’t give a fucking fuck about you. Go fuck yourself with a rusty knife.
[...]
I didn’t say everything Marcotte says is wrong, I specifically said how people can take her seriously is mind-boggling.

Certainly in comparison to you, since you come across as suuuuuuuuch an even-tempered, reasonable, well-informed and thoughtful individual.

Comment #476: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/06  at  08:43 PM

Tim, JMoore, JDub…please.  WHAT IS SOFUCKING HARD ABOUT AGREEING THAT ELEVATORS CAN BE SCARY PLACES FOR WOMEN SO YOU WON’T PROPOSITION THEM THERE, YOU’LL, AT A BARE MINIMUM, WAIT 60 SECONDS UNTIL THE DOORS ARE OPEN?

Comment #357: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 07/06 at 10:35 AM

Or really, kindly refrain from hitting on women at skeptic conferences and in other environments where they’re vastly underrepresented because doing so tends to give the impression that the dominant group thinks they’re only there to supply sex. This discourages women from participating in those environments, which keeps their representation low. It’s especially egregious to hit on a woman who’s just concluded a talk about how being hit on at these things gives her the impression the men there only think she’s there to supply sex, because you (ED, et al) obviously didn’t listen to a word she just said in her talk. But discouraging women from participating and keeping their representation low may just be the real reason you hit on her in the first place.
Having been hit on by strange men in elevators myself, I’m aware that’s a special kind of creepy, but the point would still stand if the guy had hit on her out in the open in the main conference room.

CNN is “pure evil” because they dared give voice to people questioning the alleged victim’s narrative.
Comment #344: Linfame on 07/06 at 03:26 AM

Oh too right! People who question the narratives of rape complainants are so terribly underrepresented in the media!

Comment #477: snobographer  on  07/06  at  09:01 PM

Or really, kindly refrain from hitting on women at skeptic conferences

But then however will we perpetuate the species?

I do think attending atheist conferences can be a nice way to meet someone you’d like to date or hook up with, and not just with a “that’s fascinating, dear, now how about a blowjob” kind of attitude. I don’t understand at all why you would want to behave in a way that actively reduces your chances of getting laid, and vehemently defend your right to do so. It’s almost like some guys don’t want to get laid as much as they want to complain about feeling oppressed.

Comment #478: junk science  on  07/06  at  09:19 PM

As you can see, she is indeed citing a comedy sketch as ‘proof’ of this phenomenon.
Comment #432: JMoore

It’s funny how any time I ever say comedy cliches about women being diamond-obsessed crazy manipulators who can’t shut their yaps are a load of malarkey dudes from far and wide leap to inform me that all comedy is based on truth.

Not for nothing, but AM and many others have also cited the Yes Mean Yes Meet the Predators page, which cites a pretty decent study.

Comment #479: snobographer  on  07/06  at  09:51 PM

My impression, after wading through the long and often ugly Metafilter thread and the Pharyngula threads, is that some men of the atheist persuasion have replaced God porn with evolutionary porn. Their models of male-female interaction are taken from a particularly nasty variety of evolutionary psychology that focuses on male dominance. They tend to ignore the animal species in which females are dominant, or that engage in same-sex copulation, or in which males can change into females. They seem to ignore the fact that even among chimpanzees, it’s the low-status males that go about raping females.

Caveat: I am no expert on animal behavior or evo-psycho, but it’s still possible for an amateur to suggest the deck is being stacked blatantly.

PZ Myers combats the animal-porn problem with a light hand in his atheist’s guide to courtship.

I’d be as turned off if the elevator guy blurted, “My evolutionary heritage and selfish genes compel me to proposition you with no regard to your desires in the matter! I must propagate my DNA immediately with you!”

Of course this doesn’t happen outside some Monty Python’s Guide to Love.

Comment #480: sara  on  07/06  at  10:02 PM

@479 junk science - Yeah it’s cool if you happen to hit it off with somebody in the course of conversating about mutual interests and whatnot. From dudely responses to this whole debacle though, I think skeptic guys should shelve any dating agendas until they learn a thing or two about why women have been staying away and start getting the diversity they claim to desire. That would entail actually listening to what actual women actually think though, not just demanding that they think what you want them to and put up with lecherous bullshit because hey he didn’t assault her so lighten up he’s just trying to be friendly blah blah…
Every situation in which women are present, there are guys who view it primarily as an opportunity to bag some pussy. Or at least to feign an attempt just to prove to the other guys what virile manly men they are by making a woman feel like dirt. Atheist/skeptics want to get away from ancient sky fairy paradigms? Knock off the bronze age binary hunter/prey sex role crapola.

Comment #481: snobographer  on  07/06  at  10:31 PM

I must be “part of the problem"or a gender traitor if the opinion to boycott him as a “feminist “thing to do seems idiotic, provided he admits his wrong.
Comment #475: Linfame on 07/06 at 08:15 PM

Um er what?

If he admits he’s wrong then I imagine most of those who are boycotting him would at least consider no longer boycotting him.  That’s one of the aims of a boycott—changing behavior in a targeted individual along with no longer supporting their bad behavior with your money or positive attention.

Comment #482: oldfeminist  on  07/06  at  10:41 PM

“And I also know, being a feminist for many years now, that whenever a bunch of dudes start freaking out on a woman who called out some egregious sexism, there are a bunch of women willing to back those dudes up in order to get that coveted male approval and attention.”

Because there’s no possible way there are women actually disagree with you on this.

This is pretty much no True Scotsman.

Comment #483: Slothy  on  07/06  at  11:26 PM

WHAT’S SO FUCKING HARD ABOUT AGREEING NOT TO CREEP WOMEN OUT ON ELEVATORS.?  Because you’ve spent so many posts fighting it, there must be a reason—and a huge one—that makes the shitstorm response to a simple request so very, very necessary.
Comment #357: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 07/06 at 10:35 AM

This is why :

the point would still stand if the guy had hit on her out in the open in the main conference room.
Comment #478: snobographer on 07/06 at 09:01 PM

Because the point will still stand for any situation in which a man interacts with a woman.  Campaign against female genital mutilation in places where it’s considered a thing “foreigners” do, you won’t get a huge defensive reaction.  Because you’re not actually asking them to change their behavior; it just doesn’t affect their daily lives.

If you’re going to ask men not to treat women as non-human objects whose primary use is to be fucked by men, you’re asking for an enormous paradigm shift.  When RW told a room full of people that it was creepy to trap her and proposition her after she specifically asked not to be propostioned, she broke the social contract.  Our culture is based on women being sex objects, and RW is the one who violated a social norm by complaining about it.  The anger at her is righteous anger at someone who’s done something wrong.  Women are for sex; they are not allowed to opt out.  Elevator guy was perfectly entitled to ignore a woman saying she didn’t want to be hit on and do it anyway; defending his behavior is enforcing the rules of society. 

Why would anyone think he hit on her because he was “clueless” about how men are supposed to act?  It was OK for him to do what he did.  If it wasn’t OK, then there would just be a lot of agreement about how he was wrong, not a screaming spittle-fest about how he was harmless and she was being a “precious cunt” by complaining about something that was a non-issue.  If anyone male watching this mess somehow had the idea that women were people instead of fuck-objects, it has just been demonstrated how much support, understanding, love, and defense of any outrageous behavior will be heaped upon a man who follows a fuck-object who says she’s not in the mood to be hit on, traps her, and hits on her anyway, because that’s what fuck-objects are for.  And how much hate plus incomprehension will be heaped on someone (sorry, I meant a woman) who wants to opt out of being a subhuman fuck-object and opt in to humanity.  That’s not one of her choices yet.

That’s also why several of the common agreements with “elevator guy shouldn’t have done that” are not “elevator guy shouldn’t have done that because it’s wrong to ignore someone’s wishes and intimidate them;” they’re “elevator guy shouldn’t have done that because it decreased his chance of getting some fuck from a fuck-object.”  Or, “elevator guy shouldn’t have done that, because now all the fuck-objects won’t want to come to our atheist penis-party, and WE won’t get any fuck.”

Comment #484: Nimravid  on  07/07  at  01:33 AM

Why the fuck is it so damn hard to hold off propositioning women for the 60 seconds or so you are isolated in an elevator?

Oh no! Fascist! Iranian secret police! What if you see a woman in an elevator for 15 seconds and Know She is The One? Where will JTroll ever get dates anymore? WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE SPECIES1?11

But seriously. I don’t get it either. If you were a space alien who’d chosen this moment to jump in and start observing earthlings, I think you’d have to conclude from these kind of reactions that about 75% of the sex men in the industrialized world are getting must start with asking someone you don’t know for coffee in an elevator.

It’s really weird. And creepy.

Comment #485: jack lecou  on  07/07  at  01:48 AM

Linfame,

Now I want a reading comprehension cupcake.  Sounds delicious.  And, since we have passed into that stage of intimacy where exchange endearments (although I don’t remember that happening, silly me, but you did call me sugar), then, honey/sweetie/baby, here are your own words:

“I guess I’m a Sister Punisher (or a traitor to my gender) because I cannot get over the fact that anything Marcotte has to say about sexism and rape can be taken seriously after those posts.”

Yeah.  Basically, you are saying that because you disagreed with her analysis on one occasion, her analysis on the same subject on any other occasion would be wrong.  Which is ridiculous.

It is an excuse for you to do exactly what it is you are accusing her of—which is label and dismiss without engaging.

Night, dollface.

Comment #486: Ismone  on  07/07  at  02:19 AM

Linfame’s rather strenuously ignoring the most obvious thing about the Duke case: there was no reason for a good while to doubt the accuser.  False rape accusations are rare. If Amanda could get odds like that at a casino, she’d be a rich woman. What nobody really names is the false accusation of false rape accusation, but this thread is kind of an example of a lower order of the same thing: “God, you bitches! Stop demanding that we don’t mow you over when we do whatever we want. You’re over-reacting and being mean and you’re all meany poppy heads.”   

Kristin, I hope you don’t live in New York with the talk about running. A detective for the New York City’s rape squad was quoted as saying, “Nine times out of ten, if she asks for a female (detective) it’s going to be lie.” The unit is almost entirely male and has one female detective on call. I really think we’ve moved severely backward.

Ismone, I have red velvet cupcakes.  They are cupcakes of Jesus Fucking Christ,  we’re not asking for a fuckin’ kidney here, guys, just don’t be assholes.

  Does the internet bring out the sexist trolls? Because the shit that’s getting said in this thread is scarily revealing.

Comment #487: ginmar  on  07/07  at  04:44 AM

So hey like there are nearly 500 posts here and there’s no way I’m going to spend that much time reading a bunch of clueless dudebros being morons

Comment #488: Toitle  on  07/07  at  06:01 AM

Fuck that should not have been submitted IGNORE THE LAST POST

What I meant to say was:

So hey like there are nearly 500 posts here and there’s no way I’m going to spend that much time reading a bunch of clueless dudebros being morons unless it involves something a lot funnier than this, but I have absolutely the perfect response to a bit of pathetic dumbassery from upthread.

I just hope you girls don’t seriously damage these ill-mannered young dweebs with your savage opinions of them.  Most of them are so girl shy already that it’s a wonder they don’t ALL end up residing in their parent’s basement until they’re 40.  It’s a tragic situation, but common enough that they made a movie about it (40 year old virgin).

http://i56.tinypic.com/32zs7y9.gif

Comment #489: Toitle  on  07/07  at  06:03 AM

Did my correction to that accidental posting get eaten?

Either way I think that totally ruined the joke.

Comment #490: Toitle  on  07/07  at  06:07 AM

It’s almost like some guys don’t want to get laid as much as they want to complain about feeling oppressed.

If we get nothing else from this conversation, this insight will suffice.  Yes, that is exactly so.

 

Comment #491: Punditus Maximus  on  07/07  at  08:04 AM

OMG, Kristin #474, that is insanely fantastically interesting. You are right, and I never thought of it that way. Thank you.

Comment #492: catfood  on  07/07  at  08:36 AM

I know I’m really late to this party, having taken a vacation that included a vacation from the Intertubes, but- Jesus fucking H. C. Christ on a crutch. If I didn’t already know what “male privilege” and “mansplaining” were, they’ve been demonstrated ad nauseum and way beyond by the endless procession of clueless douchebags (and I never would have believed that Richard fucking Dawkins would be one of them) on this thread and the ones at Pharyngula. Seriously, Rebecca Watson can’t even politely say what is completely fucking obvious, that cornering a woman on an elevator is creepy and you shouldn’t do it, without starting a fucking shitstorm? What the fuck? Why is that a difficult concept to grasp?

Comment #493: Steve LaBonne  on  07/07  at  10:35 AM

Steve,

Don’t forget that she made this point largely because she was asked a question and was simply answering it.  And I don’t mean was asked by some random person and answered on some random vlob post - she was was invited as a panelist and or keynote speaker to several conferences in large part to discuss this very topic.  In detail.

Oddly enough, the actual arguments of the mansplainers and privileged assholes aren’t making me want to bang my head nearly as often as that simple fact, because that’s the part (along with Richard fucking Dawkin’s wading into the debate) that turns this from “possibly a few bad apples (such as elevator guy)” to a significant, vocal, and (in Dawkin’s case, at least) powerful portion of the skeptic community essentially freaking out out because she answered their question honestly and gave them stuff to work on.  As opposed to, for example, playing the honorary guy that bashes all those other women who are not like her.

(and while this episode has made it clear that Dawkins, JTroll, and the like are indeed privileged idiots, it has also shown me that Skepchick is clearly made of awesome, so there is that at least)

Comment #494: jennygadget  on  07/07  at  12:42 PM

Ismone

imho - what you said bears repeating smile

I would also like to add that women being told to NOT expect men to act respectfully in small ways endangers women in big ways by not only making individual women tempting targets to violent men (as you are talking about) but also endangers women overall by teaching women as a class to not expect or require respect - of their boundaries or otherwise - and instead find ways to explain away such disrespect.  This may culturally be a “nice” thing to do, but placing other’s wants above your own needs is not a “safe” thing to do. It’s also not a healthy thing - among other things, it messes with one’s overall ability to assess danger.

Fugitivus has an awesome post about this btw - how things like culture being overly concerned with not labeling poor elevator guy’s behavior messes with women’s risk assessment.  It pretty much boils down to: why did she not fight back/yell for help? because you taught/told her not to.  (often by calling her a bitch whenever she did try to do so)

I mean, really, if we aren’t allowed (by culture) to even call this type of “proposition” creepy behaviour, what can we call creepy?  And if this isn’t creeepy, then how can we sure that X behaviour really will be considered threatening by society or Y action will actually be considered self-defense by a jury?  If we are supposed to judge men like JTroll based only the goodness he says is in his heart, and not by his own words and actions (promised, if not observed) then how are women supposed to learn that what actually happens to us matters and that we therefore have a right to defend ourselves?

(and yes, I know that the answers to all that is simply that it does not, so we are not.  this is my point)

The bits at Blag Hag where some commentors are accusing certain women of simply buying into a culture of fear is especially annoying me right now because of stuff related to this; being extra conservative in one’s risk assessment because one cannot count on society to back one up if one is hurt is very different from getting suckered into a culture of fear.  The latter is falsely believing that the danger is more likely to happen than it is, the former is simply an acknowledgement that the way society is structured has increased the amount of damage that would happen, should said risk come to pass.  The former is more like the different ways one looks at health depending on if one does or does not have insurance; it’s a perfectly logical, reasonable, and rational reaction to the circumstances - and it takes a lot of privilege not to see that.

Comment #495: jennygadget  on  07/07  at  12:47 PM

Jennygadget@#496, I really like what you’re saying about it not being a culture of fear here.

Kristin@#474 - That was fantastic and I am with catfood in expressing my thanks.

Comment #496: LC  on  07/07  at  01:12 PM

Boy, lots of PandaPointz earned on this post. Good job, people.

Comment #497: I Heart Puppies  on  07/07  at  01:53 PM

Nimravid @ #485:

The anger at her is righteous anger at someone who’s done something wrong.

I think a lot of the anger springs from the PandaPointz crowd misrepresenting, misquoting, or outright lying about posts of those who don’t agree 100% that Amanda is always right.

Comment #498: I Heart Puppies  on  07/07  at  02:19 PM

@ #468: Ismone
Good points.  I thought your comment was good the first time I read it as well.

Comment #499: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/07  at  03:10 PM

To me, it seems like there have only been 4 or so man-splainers here.  A couple of persistent and long-winded ones, but there have been a lot of good posts in the mix (another +1 for Kristin@#474) .
It may be because I just skip over the JMoore and Tim posts, but it has seemed a reasonable thread to me.  And it could be my own observer bias, but it seems there are a fair number of (likely?) menfolk who’ve posted who are defending RW and thwacking at the anti-feminists as well.

Comment #500: CosmoVanPelt  on  07/07  at  03:27 PM

Cosmo- don’t look at the threads on Pharyngula, though. They’ll make you want to put your eyes out with red-hot needles. I’m talking serious MRA infestation (PZ’s been afflicted with numerous outbreaks lately.)

Comment #501: Steve LaBonne  on  07/07  at  04:10 PM

(I don’t have the proverbial dog in this fight—I don’t identify as atheist and don’t participate in the conferences—but it’s surely not just a problem for atheist organizations. From my perspective this conversation could just as well be about geek conferences or social-justice organizations. Doesn’t matter.)

Following up on jennygadget’s point, I imagine that RW was supposed to answer the question of how to get more women involved in atheist organizations by suggesting… oh, more panels with women on them, provision of child care, more feminist-specific topics… I don’t know. Good things, but not challenging things.

That’s where she personally broke the rules. She was given what was supposed to be a soft topic and was expected to give a soft answer.

Guess what. It’s not a soft topic and the right answers can be difficult to hear.

Comment #502: catfood  on  07/07  at  05:28 PM

Kristin, I hope you don’t live in New York with the talk about running. A detective for the New York City’s rape squad was quoted as saying, “Nine times out of ten, if she asks for a female (detective) it’s going to be lie.” The unit is almost entirely male and has one female detective on call. I really think we’ve moved severely backward.

Yeah, it’s definitely not a universal statement. Like I said, odds of *any* rape report being taken seriously are shit poor, I’m not kidding myself.

Thanks for the kind words smile

 

Comment #503: kristin  on  07/07  at  05:33 PM

Ugh, I hate to see RD fall for such an obvious trap - I don’t understand why it’s so important to some guys to take the side of some anonymous guy over the side of a specific woman. Even their friends! My wife and I refer to this as the “Cookie effect”, due to an incident (involving cookies) that happened to her. Almost every single one of our friends fell all over themselves to defend the actions of the anonymous dude who hassled her, despite the fact that they’d known her for years and therefore presumably, knew that she wasn’t prone to oversensitivity, flights of fancy, hallucinations, or whatever.

But, that’s exactly what RD did, here. Well, he is old. Can’t expect him to get everything right. I think people should resist the temptation to punch his Feminist Card, though.

Comment #504: Chet  on  07/07  at  06:45 PM

Thanks, jennygadget and cosmovanpelt.  I felt kinda like an ass for reposting, but occasionally I have had this experience where someone (and it has always been a dude) ignores my arguments against him until I start stomping and/or mocking.  So, there I was.

Also, jennygadget—I really like your explanation of the other reasons why lack of boundaries are dangerous for women.  In fact, I think you make a compelling case for that being the more significant contributor to women being harmed. 

And ginmar, those sound like fucking amazing cupcakes.

Comment #505: Ismone  on  07/07  at  06:50 PM

Don’t forget that she made this point largely because she was asked a question and was simply answering it.  And I don’t mean was asked by some random person and answered on some random vlob post - she was was invited as a panelist and or keynote speaker to several conferences in large part to discuss this very topic.  In detail.

C’mon, it’s not like they don’t want women’s input on this. In all fairness I’m sure they would’ve accepted answers such as “I dunno why girls don’t like you guys, I guess they’re dumb bitches, tee hee!” or “being a male atheist is soo hard, can I suck your dick to make up for it?” (I mean what, you expect them to carefully self-examine, critique entrenched power structures, and engage in open dialogue in a dedicated search for the truth? That’s the kinda shit losers like atheists d—...huh.)

Comment #506: Bagelsan  on  07/07  at  06:52 PM

And it could be my own observer bias, but it seems there are a fair number of (likely?) menfolk who’ve posted who are defending RW and thwacking at the anti-feminists as well.

Certainly agree! Some good stuff from men on here, especially stuff like “um, guys, ‘we’ don’t all try to pull this shit, shut up.” And I know that asking for cookies is the worst but there seems to be some chatter about cupcakes, so maybe y’all feminist dudes should try to get in on that action? :D

Comment #507: Bagelsan  on  07/07  at  06:56 PM

The anger at her is righteous anger at someone who’s done something wrong.  Women are for sex; they are not allowed to opt out.  Elevator guy was perfectly entitled to ignore a woman saying she didn’t want to be hit on and do it anyway; defending his behavior is enforcing the rules of society.

Comment #485: Nimravid on 07/07 at 01:33 AM

I really think that was EG’s main motivation for hitting on her. To remind her that she’s a member of the sex class and not to get uppity telling the owner class they can’t get some. I mean RW’s attractive but why such an emergency?

Comment #508: snobographer  on  07/07  at  07:57 PM

Jennygadget, that was amazing.  My female privilege (of being female and human) prevented me from noticing that by giving an honest, intelligent, simple answer, she was failing to act as a stupid fuck object.

That’s why the shitstorm!  Rebecca insulted them by not giving them what they asked her for! 

Ismone, I played faux troll for you because I liked your comment a lot.

In general, this thread was much easier to take than the related threads elsewhere.  I don’t know if there was major moderation or if trolls are just scared of us, but it was nice.

Comment #509: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/07  at  08:35 PM

catfood

I was just discussing with a friend earlier how this particular slapfight has so very much in common with the typical comic book convention goers defense of Cat Piss Man.

Ismone

I think they work in tandem.  Having bad risk assessment skills will make you an easier and more identifiable target too, and having been a target (whether one escapes or not) often makes one more fearful in the future.  Like a lot of victim blaming, it essentially places the responsibility for harm done to them by others on the victims/survivor’s shoulders AND gives them bad advice.  If it was good advice, it wouldn’t help shore up the patriarchy because well, it would work, and there would be less worry about having to take responsibility for your own assault.

Bagelsan

OMG yes.  I think this is why this is bugging me more than the comic book geeks, etc. - those guys at least aren’t hypocrites.  (mostly)

I mean, it’s not like I’m shocked any more by so called progressives…it’s just that…illogical things make my head hurt.  People that are considered uber rational inserting themselves into a discussion and refusing to listen to any logic, and instead using emotional, co-optive arguments to silence a reasonable suggestion?  Just because it’s outside of their experience?  Or they are just plain assholes that don’t think self-examination is for them?

I just read some of those comments and the thing that aggravates me almost as much as anything else is that I can’t help thinking “can’t they see how biased and impractical and completely illogical they are being???”

gah!

Comment #510: jennygadget  on  07/07  at  08:41 PM

Caren,

“That’s why the shitstorm!  Rebecca insulted them by not giving them what they asked her for!”

I think it’s even better than that, actually.  Because you notice that there wasn’t much of a shitstorm until she called out another woman by name in a public speech.  Then all of a sudden *swoosh!* “you can’t do that!” etc. (I am mostly in agreement with Amanda on that part of the discussion, but also feel like there is more room for debate there).  But! that discussion then quickly slid into what the boys really wanted to talk about, but were afraid to until they had the guise of being a knight in shining armour to hide behind: defending Cat Piss Man.

As I said elsewebs yesterday - you know, it’s perfect acceptable to consider a keynote speaker’s address to not be what you expected.  It’s even reasonable at time to be offended by it.  It’s more than a little disengenous, however, to ask someone to come in and tell you how you can do better, and then get mad at them when you don’t like their not-outside-the-bounds-of-common-decency definition of “better.”  Even if you do disagree with their advice, the reasonable and civilized thing to do at that point is to thank them for their time and just not invite them to speak again (or thank them for their time and ask the ppl in charge to not invite them back).  The proper, rational response is NOT to act as if them giving solicited advice is the equivalent of being an anti-chewing-gum fanatic.  *facepalm*

Sorry, Dawkins, but your issues are showing.  People rarely respond that way to asked for advice unless it hits a nerve.

Comment #511: jennygadget  on  07/07  at  09:02 PM

This is on Gawker now and it’s the same crap, with an added bonus of the Gawker commentariat having no idea what actually happened:

http://gawker.com/5818993/richard-dawkins-torn-limb-from-limbby-atheists

Comment #512: Eileen  on  07/08  at  08:48 AM

I recall seeing a video of a bus groper on a youtube esque porn site with comments praising the guy for being “brave”.  Note: These guys are well aware that the behavior is shitty, but because they see women as highly valued objects and/or know why things are socially wrong but don’t truly understand why ( no empathy), they like to do outrageous things as an opportunity to “put women in their place” by making them uncomfortable.

Many of these guys have such problems with women specifically because they don’t see them as actual people.

I recall the ” women like _______” meme to include being outrageous or give uninvited sexual advances. Basically,  some guys intentionally push the boundaries and feel proud of it for a variety of reasons ( I used to be one who did and regret it deeply),  they are not people who just don’t understand, they are misogynist assholes. But this is stuff you already knew…

Comment #513: rawwesthide  on  07/08  at  11:10 AM

I"d also like to note that as a creeper, I did get off on “putting bitches in their place ” but also believed ” they like it” regardless of getting no physical or verbal confirmation of this and getting all signs to show they these girls didn’t like it ( I perceived every reaction as a confirmation regardless, not caring how the person actually felt). It became very clear when I started to empathize and see women as people that I’d made horrible, horrible mistakes. So yeah, this is not an issue of “guys just don’t understand”, many creeps wouldn’t listen if they were told.

Comment #514: rawwesthide  on  07/08  at  11:46 AM

Hey rawwesthide, what made you change your attitude on this?

Comment #515: catfood  on  07/08  at  01:40 PM

Catfood, I guess just growing up.  For years , it was all about me being an Awkward Guy and not Getting The Girl, then I realized one day that if I saw someone else pestering them as I did I would think they were an asshole. Eventually I put myself in their place, realizing that they had a full life with hobbies, friend, experiences, feelings (that matter just as much as mine), preferences, boundaries, choices etc just like I did ( and weren’t just something caught in my gaze), and probably felt as distressed about that as I would’ve in those situations, I felt so guilty.

Feminism went hand in hand with becoming a more empathetic person, for me. I was a narcissistic teenager who didn’t know nor care about about these girls as as people , but had become infatuated with the image of them.  I had SUPER misogynistic beliefs. But I guess I am proof that you can change if you want to. It took a lot of persistent work to get rid of my old beliefs, especially since they were commonly reinforced.

Comment #516: rawwesthide  on  07/08  at  02:59 PM

#513: Eileen - Ah, Gawker dudes. Is there nothing you won’t mansplain? I’d like to strap this guy into a set of tits and walk him through a construction site:

“dare to be a bitch and just say no. The whole “turning down gently” is a nice concept but it doesn’t really work on most guys. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. Save the smooth talk for the bedroom.”- Rolf Swart

Comment #517: snobographer  on  07/08  at  04:12 PM

Eventually I put myself in their place, realizing that they had a full life with hobbies, friend, experiences, feelings (that matter just as much as mine), preferences, boundaries, choices etc just like I did ( and weren’t just something caught in my gaze), and probably felt as distressed about that as I would’ve in those situations, I felt so guilty.

I think this kind of understanding is a really interesting thing—for me, empathizing hasn’t usually been a huge problem because as a kid I often took things very much to heart, even if they were happening to friends or movie characters or what have you, so this sort of direct “imagine that person X is just like you and act accordingly” approach to equality came relatively easy.

My problem, and I think the problem a lot of guys are having with this whole discussion, is more with the next step: imagine that person X is different from you but their world view is equally valid and important. Lots of atheist men are saying “I’d love to be hit on in an elevator!” and crap like that without realizing that 1) well, actually no they probably wouldn’t, but also 2) Rebecca clearly did not love it and that is part of why it was a problem.

It’s like the more sophisticated form of the Golden Rule: you shouldn’t truly “treat others as you want to be treated” but instead “treat others as THEY want to be treated.” Basic empathy is a vital first step of course—women have feelings and thoughts and preferences just like men do!—but it needs to be tempered by the acknowledgement that individuals vary, and even classes of people can vary in exactly how those feelings and thoughts should be respected.

Comment #518: Bagelsan  on  07/08  at  07:16 PM

Part of not being a racist is going out of your way not to come across as racist, even when you’re confident that your intentions are pure. If you’re never willing to make a small effort to spare someone else the discomfort of feeling subordinated or the mental effort of wondering whether you meant to subordinate them, you really don’t care that much about racial equality. When you put your whims ahead of someone else’s sense of dignity and security, you’re acting kind of racist. Ironically, you’re more invested in your right to seem like exactly the sort of person you DON’T want to be seen as. That’s hardly the epitome of rational behavior!

By the same token, part of not being sexist (or oppressive, or creepy) is going out of your way not to come across as sexist—regardless of the subjective purity of your intentions. If you care about gender equality, you try not to behave in ways that you can reasonably anticipate are likely to make women feel intimidated or subordinated by your size, strength, or male privilege. Remember, you can throw your weight around without intending to throw your weight around. If you’re a decent person, you keep that in the back of your mind and try to anticipate ways in which you might inadvertently be leveraging racial or gender privilege.

Sometimes we can’t help making people uncomfortable. Sometimes there’s an important moral or practical issue at stake that we can’t address without inadvertently giving offense. However, there are a lot of situations in life where it costs us almost nothing to be considerate of other people’s feelings.

For example, no one needs to proposition a woman in an elevator. There is no principle at stake. Yes, you should censor yourself if you feel the urge to hit on a woman in an elevator. That “censorship” might be as simple as thinking ahead and working up the courage to approach her in public. Censoring yourself in this situation is to your benefit. You are less likely to get what you want if you act on this impulse than if you exercise a little common sense and self-discipline. “Do you want to come to my room?” is protected speech, even in an elevator. Nobody questions your legal right to say it. Nobody will have you arrested for it. However, a lot of women will feel uncomfortable and therefore resent your behavior.

By making the small extra effort to avoid making other people uncomfortable, we can expect to reap a lot of benefits in the short term and the long term. In the short term, we will enjoy warmer relationships with others because a) we’re not needlessly intimidating/insulting/alienating people, b) people tend to notice consideration and thoughtfulness and feel warmly towards those who display these character traits. Over the long term, if everyone makes a little extra effort to resist even the appearance of sexism and racism, sexism and racism will become even less socially acceptable than they already are. It’s a virtuous cycle.

Comment #519: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  07/09  at  12:10 AM

Well, yeah, not being able to care about the fact that someone else doesn’t like something done to them just because you would isn’t even empathy. That’s like, narcissism. It is implied that a big part of empathy is to value the feelings/boundaries/etc of other people as if they were yours ( and to acknowledge that they exist) , but it’s hard to convey this when writing.

“Treat people the way they want to be treated” will be misunderstood,  because a lot of guys have inaccurate perceptions of how *women* specifically would like to be treated and therefore cannot empathize with them. “Women like being treated like shit” is an extremely common meme in misogynist circles, and “she might like it”  is a cop out for people who don’t see women as people and/or get off on bullying women (in a sexual way or not). This is partly why I did it.

I understood what you meant, I just know that many of the guys who need to won’t. There is so much fucked up psychology behind misogyny that it’s hard to think about.

Comment #520: rawwesthide  on  07/09  at  03:10 AM

Also with the ” women like to be treated like shit” belief that any woman who claims that she doesn’t isn’t a liar. I feel like I went on about something tangential to what you were trying to get across Bagelsan, so sorry about that.

Comment #521: rawwesthide  on  07/09  at  03:21 AM

I feel like I went on about something tangential to what you were trying to get across Bagelsan

Oh, not at all! I appreciate your point of view on this. (It’s good to have the “women like being treated like shit” idea pointed out to me again in this context, at least, because I naively keep forgetting how bizarrely common that delusion is, having never shared it in my life. -_- ) And I especially liked this bit, too:

It is implied that a big part of empathy is to value the feelings/boundaries/etc of other people as if they were yours ( and to acknowledge that they exist) , but it’s hard to convey this when writing.

because I think that’s a nuance I’d missed before. Or at least, I usually interpret empathy as seeing someone else’s boundaries as the same as yours, but the way you phrase it makes their boundaries equal(lly valuable) to yours even if the boundary itself is not identical, and I like that a lot better. :D

Comment #522: Bagelsan  on  07/09  at  04:11 PM

Lots of atheist men are saying “I’d love to be hit on in an elevator!” and crap like that without realizing that 1) well, actually no they probably wouldn’t, but also 2) Rebecca clearly did not love it and that is part of why it was a problem.

Comment #519: Bagelsan

But would they love to be hit on in an elevator by somebody who could kick their ass and is only really asking to put them in their place?

Comment #523: snobographer  on  07/09  at  04:31 PM

But would they love to be hit on in an elevator by somebody who could kick their ass and is only really asking to put them in their place?

We need an ad starring Mike Tyson…

Comment #524: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/09  at  04:46 PM

But would they love to be hit on in an elevator by somebody who could kick their ass and is only really asking to put them in their place?

Hell, I’m not sure many of them would love to be aggressively hit on my someone who couldn’t kick their ass. I’m all of 5’3” but I could probably fake a creepy enough attitude to make your average slightly geeky dude decide he doesn’t actually like coffee as much as he likes getting out of the elevator asap.

I’m only speculating, ‘cause I don’t ever attempt to act creepy (at least not to people who don’t know I’m joking, and who aren’t trying to stifle giggles the entire time.) But everyone knows that, while creepy can be helped by a person’s appearance, it’s really all about the attitude and body language—unless someone wants to argue that, for example, adorable little Elijah Wood wasn’t creepy as fuuuck in Sin City? :p

Comment #525: Bagelsan  on  07/09  at  07:33 PM

Bagelson,

My initial reaction was to start listing examples similar to Elijah Wood in Sin City, but then I realized that they are all examples just like that - example with actors.  When women are shown as creepy in the media, they tend to be shown as creepy in very different ways from that - which doesn’t help with the empathy issue (which in turn doesn’t help with the creepy women in the media issue).

Comment #526: jennygadget  on  07/09  at  10:04 PM

BagelsAn! - sorry.  :(  ( what is wrong with me today? )

Comment #527: jennygadget  on  07/09  at  10:07 PM

Bagelsan - I once knew this sort of lechy college jock guy who I’m sure thought he’d love to be sexually harassed or whatever. I was on a crowded city bus with him when this young woman (maybe teen girl) felt up his crotch as she walked by to exit the bus. He was not thrilled. At all. He was skeeved the hell out. The girl was quite pretty too.

Comment #528: snobographer  on  07/09  at  11:32 PM
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