Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Gingrich was taking your Harley out for a weekend, nothing more Previous entry: Victim-blaming and social control

Believers believe, yes, but because they want to

Religion

PZ has a blog post up about new research showing---no big surprise---that religious people actually believe in all that magic stuff they say they believe in. I wasn't aware that this was controversial, but then again, I've met people who sit around reading religious texts where others can't see them, which I figure is the most relevant measure.

Julian Baggini discovers that believers believe. Baggini is an atheist who has in the past sniped at the New Atheists a fair bit; he’s argued that we’re an uninformed bunch who rail against straw man theism, because, he has argued, most practitioners of religion are followers of practice, not belief — they go to church for ritual and community, and all the dogma is dispensable. Now he has surveyed a few hundred believers, and learned that they actually do think the superstitious stories they have been told are very important.......

I think I’d call this the Atheist Delusion. Many of us find it really hard to believe that Christians actually believe that nonsense about Jesus rising from the dead and insisting that faith is required to pass through the gates of a magical place in the sky after we’re dead; we struggle to find a rational reason why friends and family are clinging to these bizarre ideas, and we say to ourselves, “oh, all of her friends are at church” or “he uses church to make business contacts” or “it’s a comforting tradition from their childhood”, but no, it’s deeper than that: we have to take them at their word, and recognize that most people who go to church actually do so because they genuinely believe in all that stuff laid out in the Nicene Creed.

Since this is a both/and blog, I thought I'd split the baby here.  It is both true that believers believe, and that they participate in religion for social reasons. I don't see these things as mutually exclusive. It's one of the unfortunate tricks of human psychology that we believe things in no small part because that's what we're expected to believe, or because we want to believe. Which are kind of the same thing, actually. People want to believe what they're expected to believe, because that makes it easier to get along. You aren't in conflict with others because of your beliefs, and you get all sorts of social rewards. The fear of losing that causes people to banish doubts about their beliefs when they creep into their mind. Some people are outliers, and just habitually question common wisdom, but not most people. 

It's not just religion where we see this. It's not a coincidence that conservative ideals are concentrated in some communities and liberal ones in others. It's not just that people seek out like-minded people, though that is part of it. It's also that people tend to go along with the prevailing wisdom. 

Let's think of a relatively small example of how this works. Say, you're living in a conservative community and getting married. Your inclination is to keep your name, because it initially seems like the most logical option. It will cause less strife in your professional life, make it easier for people to find you on Facebook, and help you avoid excessive paperwork. But then the pressure starts. It might not be overt; your fiance may just look disappointed and say in a despondent voice, "Well, if it's what you really want." Your friends look startled, as if you're a freak. Your soon-to-be in-laws wonder aloud how you're going to name the children. Your mother calls and says that it would be nice if you weren't rubbing everyone's noses in what a feminist you are. Eventually, the strife gets to be a bit much. You start to think that it would just be easier to change your name. Once you've made the decision, being a human being, you start to rationalize it. You say, "My husband told me it was my decision, and it was! I wanted everyone to have the same last name. I don't like my last name anyway." 

The word "rationalize" has unpleasant connotations, but in fact, most people rationalize most decisions most of the time. For instance, I chose to grab the Nation magazine instead of the American Prospect on my way to the gym today. God only knows why. The real reason was probably beyond silly; maybe it was just closer to my hand and I was distracted. But as soon as I picked it up, I said to myself, "Huh, the articles look really interesting today. They are covering something I'm really in the mood to read." I suspect I would have found the Prospect just as interesting if I'd grabbed it instead; I do like both magazines a lot. 

The problem with rationalization is that it gets intense when the stakes for abandoning a decision are high. If I read the Prospect tomorrow and find I like it better, nothing is lost. I may even forget that I made a decision at all. But if I changed my name, and someone challenged that, my sense of self-esteem (I like to think of myself as an independent person, as do most), would be threatened. So would the estimation of my husband as a non-selfish spouse who puts my interests ahead of his male entitlement. So I double down with my rationalizations, to avoid cognitive dissonance. With religion, the stakes are really high for a number of people. Their family, marriage, sense of self, and community may be entirely built on it. 

So, perversely, New Atheists and the critics of them are both right. We need to understand that people believe because of social pressures. But that doesn't mean we should shut up when criticizing religion. Loud criticisms of religion aren't going to be effective on most people who have a lot invested in religion, but they are incredibly effective on people who have little investment. I use myself as an example. I never went to church as a kid, not really. I was never confirmed. My parents told me to believe whatever I wanted. The few times I went to church, I found the process and people alienating. So when I was presented with atheist arguments, I had no reason to reject them out of hand. Other people I've spoken to were very religious and came around, and it's usually because they had an alienating experience with religion that made them more open to atheist arguments. By making direct, logical arguments against religion and gods, atheists create opportunities for people who have low investment in religion or a crisis in faith to come around. But we'd be mistaken if we didn't think that social pressures played a major role in this, and also sought ways to relieve those pressures on people, so they don't feel they need to believe. 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:30 PM • (91) Comments

Yeah, you never persuade the person you’re talking to.  What you do is allow people who haven’t formed opinions to examine yours.

Comment #1: Punditus Maximus  on  12/14  at  07:24 PM

I think that’s it’s quite possible to persuade people, so long as they are willing to examine what others say. Of course it takes good evidence and good arguments to persuade people, otherwise they have every right to simply dismiss you outright.

It’s anecdotal, but I didn’t support feminism, I actually thought it bunk, until I was exposed to the real arguments, investigated the claims, and realized they made more sense than the arguments and the things I was socialized to believe in.

In my experience, people change their opinions about things all the time, so it seems likely that their minds can be changed from one thing they believe in, to another, even if the change of opinion comes with social cost.

I’m hardly popular for being anti-oppression in public, and I think that may be an experience many of us here share.

Comment #2: R.T.  on  12/14  at  08:08 PM

“Many of us find it really hard to believe that Christians actually believe…”
This is surprising to me.  I’m not saying it’s right, but there are so many reasons to believe what you want to believe.  It’s so fulfilling in just the rationalizing way you describe.  Opiate of the masses and all that, but it’s the feeling of rightness that’s the active ingredient.

Comment #3: ganews_  on  12/14  at  08:18 PM

The thing is, most people *do* have a crisis of faith at some point.  No matter how strongly invested.

My uncle, a Benedictan monk who’s still considered in line for sainthood had questions.  That’s one reason the hierarchy is waiting for those of us who knew him to die first, so they can make up their own stories about him.

In fact, I’d say being more invested increases your chances of becoming disaffected, as you see how the higher ups are hypocrites.  You either start questioning harder, or double down and become a raging hypocrite who’s determined to be right and correct and find fault in other less devout.

I think the “Christmas and Easter” casual Catholics probably have a better chance of staying in the fold because they don’t think about it too much.  But even then, there’s a limit to how much anyone can take of the “bad things happen to good people because a Loving God has a plan for you”.  You either decide to give up all control to the Sky Fairy Who Knows Best, or you start to think a God who plays these games either isn’t paying attention or actively hates people.

Comment #4: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/14  at  09:20 PM

another complicating factor is that many (probably most in my experience) believers SAY they believe but then live like they don’t believe.

Comment #5: alysia  on  12/14  at  10:15 PM

But even then, there’s a limit to how much anyone can take of the “bad things happen to good people because a Loving God has a plan for you”.

This is something that always gets to me. If an all powerful being wants something done, can’t it just do what it wants?

I’ve perceived people answer such a question by communicating that it would interfere with peoples’ “free will” if their god did what it wanted to do directly, but doesn’t making horrible things happen to people interfere with the free will of people who have said horrible thing done to? (I know that some Christians don’t believe in free will, but this isn’t for them.)

Example:
A child gets cancer to motivate people to care for people with cancer and motivate scientists to make a cure for cancer, because god wants people to care about those with cancer and have cancer cured.

Or stranger:

A child gets cancer because god wants a specific person, Bob, a friend of a friend whose kid is the one with cancer, to learn that life precious and can be severely constrained or taken at any moment. If god didn’t give the kid cancer, Bob wouldn’t have learned this.

Somehow free will with not interfered with in either of these scenarios, which are based on things I’ve listened or read from Christians.

Comment #6: R.T.  on  12/15  at  12:25 AM

Well, it’s hard to believe that any significant number of people literally believe a virgin was magically impregnated and her child came back to life, that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, and that men were created out of mud and women out of a man’s rib.

So I tried to research a bit, since this survey isn’t exactly scientific.  I came up with a Gallup poll published July 8, 2011 that broke down the belief in the literal truth of the Bible:
           
Protestants:  Actual word of God: 41% Inspired word of God: 46% Book of fables/legends: 10%
Catholics:    Actual word of God: 21% Inspired word of God: 65% Book of fables/legends: 09%

So even among various Christians most didn’t seem to think the Bible was literally true.  But…a very significant number did.  There goes my “Atheist Delusion.”  Now I’m going to spend my evening being horrified.

Comment #7: Nimravid  on  12/15  at  01:59 AM

In fact, I’d say being more invested increases your chances of becoming disaffected, as you see how the higher ups are hypocrites.  You either start questioning harder, or double down and become a raging hypocrite who’s determined to be right and correct and find fault in other less devout.

This is the working assumption of literalism.  It never takes into account those who accept that organized religion maybe a game of politics and administrative aspects that skewed god’s desire/wishes/essence long ago.  It doesn’t prove god not to exist, it means if anything the system surrounding worship is flawed.  I’ve had crisis of faith numerous times and most of all when my wife died so young (only 27) but I felt that life is too important and agreed that there is a god.  If there isn’t, so be it.  I’ll have led a life still worth living.  I work hard to not discriminate and view the world from a firmly left point of view.  Most atheists I’ve met tend to extend the idea of absolute literalism to it’s logical extent and forgo any extraneous possibilities because it suits their ideology.  It doesn’t make them bad people but it does leave them with a hardened view on existence..

Comment #8: Xeranar  on  12/15  at  02:42 AM

Is it really surprising that if you question people who spent their lives “believing” whether they actually believe that they say yes? I’d be shocked if a majority of church goers admitted that it was all a fraud and they just attended for the hymns.

Comment #9: Col Bat Guano  on  12/15  at  03:24 AM

Yeah, I also have to wonder how much of this is poll is due to social pressure. Amanda pointed out this issue in explaining why the Personhood Amendment in Mississippi failed - what people say in front of their friends and families and communities, and which lever they pull in the privacy of a voting booth, are two different things. And we’ve had previous polls show that way more people say they go to church regularly than actually do. How do we know this isn’t a similarly skewed poll? I personally know quite a few liberal, non-literalist Christians who feel they need to hide their theological beliefs around other members of the congregation who are less evolved.

Comment #10: Erda  on  12/15  at  04:02 AM

@R.T

Christian ideas about free will (the ones that acknowledge it exists) will give you a headache. A while ago I had to write an essay on Milton’s conception of free will in Paradise Lost and I had to get an extension because of how difficult it was for me to try to lay out a coherent and consistent explanation of it. Even then, it could be easily taken down if examined in light of reality outside of the poem’s world, but at least I ended up with something vaguely internally consistent… after spending hours upon hours wanting to set fire to my brain.

Comment #11: Treefinger  on  12/15  at  05:59 AM

@ Xeranar

What do you mean by absolute literalism? I’ve read your post but what you are communicating reads like a reaction against a false dichotomy fallacy, but I don’t want to make assumptions about what it is you are communicating, hence I’m going to ask some other questions too.

Most atheists I’ve met tend to extend the idea of absolute literalism to it’s logical extent and forgo any extraneous possibilities because it suits their ideology.  It doesn’t make them bad people but it does leave them with a hardened view on existence..

Atheism just means lack of belief in a deity, it’s a position in relation to a claim, not an ideology in itself. A person can hold all sorts of ideologies, right-wing, left-wing, oppressor, anti-oppressor, dog person, cat person, yet whatever their ideologies, if they lack belief in a deity, they’re an atheist.

Could you explain what is a hardened view of existence exactly, since “hardened” in your context could mean cynical, bleak, pessimistic; things like those? And also extraneous possibilities?

@ Treefinger

Christian ideas about free will (the ones that acknowledge it exists) will give you a headache. A while ago I had to write an essay on Milton’s conception of free will in Paradise Lost and I had to get an extension because of how difficult it was for me to try to lay out a coherent and consistent explanation of it. Even then, it could be easily taken down if examined in light of reality outside of the poem’s world, but at least I ended up with something vaguely internally consistent… after spending hours upon hours wanting to set fire to my brain.

I’ve never read Paradise Lost, but I know of it and some of it’s contents; enough so to notice that a lot of Christians take things from Paradise lost as if they were something that came out of the Bible, a book I’ve read twice, cover to cover and still peruse, though I admit that I’ve always skipped the genealogy bits.

Have you noticed the same mix up between Paradise Lost and the Bible?

Comment #12: R.T.  on  12/15  at  07:33 AM

You’re forgetting one other factor in belief—comfort. I’ll admit this is part of the reason I still have faith, it’s a lot more comforting to believe there is an afterlife than to think that some day I’ll be gone forever. I’ve been athiest, but it didn’t stick.

Comment #13: Jayn Newell  on  12/15  at  08:19 AM

Also I think it’s a matter of degree. If you ask people “Is the Bobble literally true?”, far more will say yes than if you start asking them about the truth of various details. “Did Jeebus really turn loaves into fishes or wev?” is going to get a lower response.

Comment #14: felagund  on  12/15  at  08:32 AM

R.T. @ 12

I have a bit, but mainly in popular culture since I only know a few Christians who are still practicing. Mainly a lot of people don’t seem to realize how much the cultural idea of Satan was influenced by PL. Satan as an actual figure instead of a general idea doesn’t appear much in the Bible (same with the “antichrist”), except in the book of Job where ha-Satan is essentially the same as Milton’s Satan, albeit less rebellious. So I think the essential difference is the idea of him as an enemy of God rather than just a servant, which is pretty popular today. I think various Jewish texts have more of him, but I’m hardly an expert, and anyway that’s irrelevant to most Christians.

And there’s other things, such as quotes, that people pull out from time that they probably don’t realize are not from the Bible. On the whole PL is much better written than the Bible though (though not everything in it is dull, Song of Songs is worthy of being studied as literature), so I suppose it has more memorable phrases for people to latch onto.

Comment #15: Treefinger  on  12/15  at  08:47 AM

Though, when I say that about the popular conception of Satan, I don’t mean PL was the first to do that, just one of the more enduring and influential works (along with giving Adam, Eve and Satan more fleshed out personalities, especially Eve. It’s still pretty misogynist in the fact it blames her for the fall, but it shows how she was motivated by the desire to become an independent person, which is at least human and relatable).

Comment #16: Treefinger  on  12/15  at  09:01 AM

In my rather limited experience with mainstream christians I’ve found that they believe in God and Jesus and Heaven and beyond that don’t really stress over the details, choosing to attend churches that contain the most people more or less socially like themselves.

Comment #17: chuckling one  on  12/15  at  09:11 AM

For instance, I chose to grab the Nation magazine instead of the American Prospect on my way to the gym today. God only knows why. The real reason was probably beyond silly; maybe it was just closer to my hand and I was distracted. But as soon as I picked it up, I said to myself, “Huh, the articles look really interesting today. They are covering something I’m really in the mood to read.”

It’s kinda OT, but I remember reading about an interesting study on exactly this sort of thing. They presented men with two magazines to choose between - a sports magazine and a photography magazine - and then asked them why they’d chosen as they did. Everybody said that they chose the magazine they did because the articles interested them more than the articles in the alternative magazine - but the vast majority of them picked the magazine with the swimsuit model on the cover.

Comment #18: Dunc  on  12/15  at  09:26 AM

“You’re forgetting one other factor in belief—comfort. I’ll admit this is part of the reason I still have faith, it’s a lot more comforting to believe there is an afterlife than to think that some day I’ll be gone forever. I’ve been athiest, but it didn’t stick.”

...even more important than a belief in an afterlife, IMHO, is the belief that somehow your existence has meaning, that there is some reason for why you were born, subjected to often horrible trials and tribulations, and will someday die, leaving nothing behind but memories in other people’s minds.

For the religious, the inherent purposeless of life is a catalyst for belief, or a reason to cling to the beliefs they were raised with.  For me, it is a challenge.

I know there was no innate reason for why I’m here, so I look for ways I can justify my own life by contributing some of my meager talents to the world around me.  If someone’s life was improved because I was there, if somebody was inspired by something I said, if I did something that someone remembers in a positive light, and, at a minimum, if I left the world no worse for my existence then it was when I entered it, then it might just have been worth it to tolerate the physical and emotional pain of living…

Comment #19: MikeEss  on  12/15  at  09:49 AM

Sounds like Baggiani spends most of his time with secular (and to some extent, Reform) Jews. It’s a pretty accurate description of the community. It’s also part of the reason why the “who is a Jew?” debate in Israel is the way it is.

I think it’s also important to remember that Karen Armstrong, who Baggiani’s responding to, works for the UN, so she’s looking at the issue internationally. In many nations, religion really is about ritual and community, particularly if you’re coming from non-Judeo-Christian traditions.

Comment #20: caisarasghost  on  12/15  at  09:51 AM

I have a friend who is an evolutionary psychologist and a devout, conservative Muslim who seems to be creating her career around synthesizing her religious beliefs with her work. It always startles me that people in supposedly rational academic disciplines could ignore the entire edifice of religion in their work, and it startles me that much more that someone could try to synthesize something as anti-rational as Islam (she would of course beg to differ) with her academic field.

Comment #21: JonE  on  12/15  at  10:06 AM

Yeah, I think there’s going to be a huge split between Catholics/Church of England/Episcopalians and, essentially, the post-Great Awakening Christian sects. Among other things, Catholicism and the like offer some genuinely useful tools for being human - rituals and cycles of the year and periodic re-examinations of behavior, etc, that you can honestly take on without believing much in the reasons, even if I’m not a huge fan of how they’re deployed. The Christian sects that are based on constant personal reevaluation of divine inspiration also offer some interesting psychological coping tools, as well as a loose structure of socialization, but it’s harder to really sink into them if you don’t get the god feelings, and the god feelings are what often prompt people to embrace the doctrinal stuff whole-hog.

Comment #22: purpleshoes0  on  12/15  at  10:07 AM

It’s kinda OT, but I remember reading about an interesting study on exactly this sort of thing. They presented men with two magazines to choose between - a sports magazine and a photography magazine - and then asked them why they’d chosen as they did. Everybody said that they chose the magazine they did because the articles interested them more than the articles in the alternative magazine - but the vast majority of them picked the magazine with the swimsuit model on the cover.

It’s a well known fact(*) that people read Playboy for the articles only.  They skip the pictures.  It’s a well known fact!

(*) (You have to say that “Gregory’s Girl”-style.)

Comment #23: James  on  12/15  at  10:13 AM

My dude’s theory is that religious belief is all about comfort, too. I understand how people delude themselves for comfort, but on that, I don’t understand at all. After all, the god you’re presented with is not a comforting figure, but a frightening one. One reason so many Catholics crapped the bed when PZ desecrated a wafer was they are *afraid* of their “loving” god and his vengeance. Of course, the main reason was they were afraid that nothing would happen, giving them reason to doubt. It’s a big mess. I don’t see why invite that into your life to “comfort” you. It’s like having a binky that’s made of thorns.

I don’t see why death is so scary, I just don’t. Pain is scary, but religion has nothing to offer for that. Death is the big sleep. It’s as scary as not being born yet, which is to say, it’s not. Except to weirdo anti-choicers.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  10:18 AM

After all, the god you’re presented with is not a comforting figure, but a frightening one.

That depends a bit on which part of the Bible you’re reading. The New Testament portrays a much more forgiving God.  Which confused me a bit as a child—we would alternately be given a picture of a harsh, punishing God and a kind, loving one. The latter idea stuck better.

Comment #25: Jayn Newell  on  12/15  at  10:28 AM

Yeah, you’re coming across as really humble there, Alex.

Comment #26: dopus dei  on  12/15  at  10:58 AM

RT #6 -
Funny, I have faith and always thought kids got cancer because their cells mutated.

Comment #27: PD2011  on  12/15  at  11:04 AM

My experience with religion was growing up in a more liberal mainline protestant church where everything was fuzzy wuzzy (with a big underlying theme of guilt built in) where good things happen because of god and bad things happen in spite of god, and all the fucked up parts of the bible were not discussed, ever and there was rarely any discusion of satan or hell. So in that case it can be a very comforting thing. I’ve probably been atheist or at least agnostic since my early teens, but I got confirmed anyway and played along out of fear of disappointing my parents, but as soon as I was out of the house and in college I was done with all that.

Comment #28: Jimmy  on  12/15  at  11:08 AM

At #17:  Yep.  As Mrs. Betty Bowers puts it, (paraphrasing from memory), the thing Christians do best is ignore what Jesus actually said.  Among other things, if you confront them with the fact that Jesus taught that most people, including presumably many people they know and love, will spend eternity in unimaginable torment, they basically cover their ears and starting chanting “La, la, la, can’t hear you.”  Some seriously maintain that their memories will be wiped out in Heaven since, obviously, they couldn’t be happy knowing that their father, or child, or spouse was in Hell.

@ #11:  It’s been a long time since I read Paradise Lost, but even a genius like Milton couldn’t do the impossible, i.e. reconcile the concept of human free will with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign creator who is an active participant in human affairs.  As horrifying as Calvinist doctrine is, I will give Calvin and his followers a little credit for at least dealing with the problem of God’s sovereignty.

Comment #29: MTS  on  12/15  at  11:27 AM

@ Amanda, #24:  one of my favorite Twain quotes:  “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”  For me it’s not the being dead that scares me, since as Twain points out it will be the same as it was for all that time I didn’t exist before.  I do like being alive, though, and I’m certainly well past the halfway point of my life, especially given the lifespan of most males in my family, and I’m not looking forward to the transition itself.

@30:  I could almost have written an identical testimony.

Comment #30: MTS  on  12/15  at  11:36 AM

@ #26.  Yes and no.  Although there is some warm fuzzy stuff in Jesus’ teachings, I think it’s important to remember that eternal torment in Hell is a NT concept.  As awful as the OT deity is, he doesn’t punish people forever.

Comment #31: MTS  on  12/15  at  11:38 AM

I confess that I’m fascinated that this is a controversy among atheists—like that some of them actually projected their own experience with church (that they attended without really believing until they were tired of the charade) onto every other believer.

There’s long been a strain within atheism, I would guess dating back to the Enlightenment, that the end of religious belief is “just around the corner”, but the reason keeps changing. At first, the idea was that once people learned enough, they would stop being religious believers. Now the concept among some atheists is that people are just in it for the community, and once that’s not needed, people will stop going to church, but it never seems to happen because religious roots run deep for many, being at the strong intersection of culture and belief.

The “New Atheists” are on to something—believers really DO believe what they believe, and if you actually regard coexistence as futile, then believers and atheists are actually fundamentally opposed.

All that said, there is something to the idea that religious belief is on a shaky foundation. Quebec went through what they call the “Quiet Revolution” from 1960-1966, and religious practice and belief essentially evaporated, and Quebec is the most secular province in Canada. Obviously, it remains an open question regarding whether secularization is a one-way street, but it does happen and can happen rather rapidly.

Comment #32: Tyro  on  12/15  at  11:39 AM

RT @ 6

Have you ever heard the song Christmas Shoes? I’d never heard it before a few days ago. It’s horrifying on so many levels it would take a blog post or two to unpack it all. I’d actually like to see Amanda try, honestly.

It’s full of the idea that God does evil things for lame reasons.

I’m surprised any atheist thought believers didn’t actually believe, though. If it was all Emperor’s New Clothes, it wouldn’t be so hard to fight.

Comment #33: Seebach  on  12/15  at  11:41 AM

Regarding the idea that “God has a plan”: I’ve said this before, but there’s nothing that an all powerful, all knowing God could accomplish through pain and suffering, that he could not accomplish without it. If there is a god of this world, then he must surely be a sadist.

another complicating factor is that many (probably most in my experience) believers SAY they believe but then live like they don’t believe.

I think this is exactly the source of the “surprise”. When my grandmother died, both my mother (a devout, hardcore christian) and me (an atheist) experienced the same heart-rending grief. If believers really clung to belief because they see it as a “get out of death free” card, why are they still so upset when people die? Do they really truly believe they’re going to see their loved ones again, or not?

Of course, on the same hand, we routinely have episodes where my mother is screaming and crying because she believes that I’m going to hell.

Where is the comfort again?

Comment #34: Egnu Cledge  on  12/15  at  12:11 PM

@Celebrity Ghost Stories

Yes. Lying or just simply completely wrong. People make up stories to explain things they don’t understand (or which don’t really need explaining) and then embellish them with re-telling.

Are you saying you actually believe them?

Comment #35: Egnu Cledge  on  12/15  at  12:13 PM

On that cancer discussion up top, my mom made a kind-of similar argument when my uncle got brain cancer, that it was god’s way of bringing his family together since my cousins had their relationship with each other improve over trying to cope with their father’s brain damage that caused him to basically revert to an 8 year old in a grown man’s body. It didn’t even occur to my mom that it would take some type of extremely fucked up sociopath to come up with such a solution for family problems. Serial killers work in mysterious ways, I guess.

Comment #36: Jimmy  on  12/15  at  12:18 PM

Since this is a both/and blog, I thought I’d split the baby here.

Nice Biblical allusion there. Very apropos.

Have you ever heard the song Christmas Shoes? I’d never heard it before a few days ago. It’s horrifying on so many levels

That is an absolutely horrible song! I agree, plumbing the depths of fail on just the lyrics would take a whole blog post and I haven’t even heard the music it’s set to. But seeing as it is Bob Carlisle of “Butterfly Kisses” fame, let me guess: treacle and maudlin?

Comment #37: Vir Modestus  on  12/15  at  12:34 PM

Here’s a few quotes from Col Robert Ingersoll, a noted 19th Century writer and agnostic.

If there be an infinite Being, he does not need our help—we need not waste our energies in his defense.

They say the religion of your fathers is good enough. Why should a father object to your inventing a better plow than he had? They say to me, do you know more than all the theologians dead? Being a perfectly modest man I say I think I do. Now we have come to the conclusion that every man has a right to think. Would God give a bird wings and make it a crime to fly? Would he give me brains and make it a crime to think? Any God that would damn one of his children for the expression of his honest thought wouldn’t make a decent thief. When I read a book and don’t believe it, I ought to say so. I will do so and take the consequences like a man.

Churches are becoming political organizations… It probably will not be long until the churches will divide as sharply upon political, as upon theological questions; and when that day comes, if there are not liberals enough to hold the balance of power, this Government will be destroyed. The liberty of man is not safe in the hands of any church. Wherever the Bible and sword are in partnership, man is a slave. All laws for the purpose of making man worship God, are born of the same spirit that kindled the fires of the auto da fe, and lovingly built the dungeons of the Inquisition. All laws defining and punishing blasphemy — making it a crime to give your honest ideas about the Bible, or to laugh at the ignorance of the ancient Jews, or to enjoy yourself on the Sabbath, or to give your opinion of Jehovah, were passed by impudent bigots, and should be at once repealed by honest men. An infinite God ought to be able to protect himself, without going in partnership with State Legislatures. Certainly he ought not so to act that laws become necessary to keep him from being laughed at. No one thinks of protecting Shakespeare from ridicule, by the threat of fine and imprisonment. It strikes me that God might write a book that would not necessarily excite the laughter of his children. In fact, I think it would be safe to say that a real God could produce a work that would excite the admiration of mankind. Surely politicians could be better employed than in passing laws to protect the literary reputation of the Jewish God.

Only the very ignorant are perfectly satisfied that they know. To the common man the great problems are easy. He has no trouble in accounting for the universe. He can tell you the origin and destiny of man and the why and wherefore of things.

MTS, it was William Blake who pointed out that Milton unwittingly made Satan the hero of Paradise Lost, summarized in that quote familiar to any Star Trekker:

It is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

Comment #38: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/15  at  12:40 PM

Atheism just means lack of belief in a deity, it’s a position in relation to a claim, not an ideology in itself.

I would like to agree but Ms. Marcotte has already made a post a few weeks ago pointing out the natural cohesion that atheism brings to eventually create a counter-ideology to christianity that inevitably mimics a progressive protestant administrative view on it.  It is a lack of a belief but the activists are organized in a group fashion thus forming a group that by any other name would be a religion. 

One reason so many Catholics crapped the bed when PZ desecrated a wafer was they are *afraid* of their “loving” god and his vengeance. Of course, the main reason was they were afraid that nothing would happen, giving them reason to doubt. It’s a big mess. I don’t see why invite that into your life to “comfort” you. It’s like having a binky that’s made of thorns.

I wonder what kind of weird psuedo-religious experiences you’ve had with people?  Most of the people I know and I can’t say I know more than a few hundred over my years in the church but being Catholic has largely meant taking the old testament with a grain of salt and looking to the new testament as a testament of the way god is now.  God isn’t vengeful, he is absolutely forgiving.  Any good catholic realizes god isn’t going to come down and rain fire down upon us for screwing up.  It just doesn’t work that way nor has it ever.  It is more of a guiding essence to living.  Then again atheism seems to rely on a sense of community more than religion does because of its natural outlier position, it doesn’t make it right or wrong but a minority in a sea of majority needs natural reinforcement in the mind to avoid the questioning feeling. 

If anything most of the time it feels like they are transferring onto others how they feel or at least reflecting their rational tone and attempting to discern the reasoning for religious belief because they can’t accept it at face value and need to figure out why those who are perfectly fine and likable are with the hypocrites. 

If believers really clung to belief because they see it as a “get out of death free” card, why are they still so upset when people die? Do they really truly believe they’re going to see their loved ones again, or not?

Because we’re shallow.  Honestly, every human being is shallow in that they don’t want those they love to ever die and go away.  They want them to live on and be with them forever.  For an atheist I imagine they believe that religion and an afterlife is a balm for living when it isn’t it’s an acceptance and a hope that we grow and move on from the mortal coil.  It doesn’t make us less susceptible to emotion, if anything it makes us more. 


As for Celebrity Ghost Stories : I tend to think a part of it is made up but then again I believe that there is a certain amount of unaccounted for things that occur within humanity that we simply cannot explain.  (AKA: I apparently believe in ghosts so my opinion is diluted, no?)

Comment #39: Xeranar  on  12/15  at  12:40 PM

If believers really clung to belief because they see it as a “get out of death free” card, why are they still so upset when people die? Do they really truly believe they’re going to see their loved ones again, or not?

My great-grandmother was a devout Catholic who believed that St. Paul came to her hospital bed and healed her of a-then fatal illness and sent her home in a cab when she was in her mid-30s.

After that, whenever she was at a funeral, she’d be smiling and happy, and people would ask her, “Why are you smiling?”.

She’d always answer, “They’re with Jesus now.”

Even the priests thought her a little bit strange, because of that.

I’m reminded of this Bertrand Russell anecdote:

The late F. W. H. Myers used to tell how he asked a man at a dinner table what he thought would happen to him when he died. The man tried to ignore the question, but, on being pressed, replied: ‘Oh well, I suppose I shall inherit eternal bliss, but I wish you wouldn’t talk about such unpleasant subjects.’

Comment #40: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/15  at  12:54 PM

I confess that I’m fascinated that this is a controversy among atheists—like that some of them actually projected their own experience with church (that they attended without really believing until they were tired of the charade) onto every other believer.

Wow, you mean kind of like how many Christians—and you, right up there—assume that atheists are angry at God or Christians, or disillusioned with church, rather than simply lacking belief?  The difference, of course, is that while Christians’ beliefs about atheists like me with no church experience are demonstrably false, atheists have a hard time believing that their fellow adults organize their lives around a sincere belief in something as random, irrelevant, and fantastic as the Tooth Fairy.  What assholes we all are, to so overestimate the intelligence of people who disagree with us!

Comment #41: themmases  on  12/15  at  12:55 PM

As for Celebrity Ghost Stories : I tend to think a part of it is made up but then again I believe that there is a certain amount of unaccounted for things that occur within humanity that we simply cannot explain.

If I produced a TV show called Small Children Tell You About the Monster In Their Closet we would all smirk and chuckle at them. But apparently when Danny DeVito tells you the same story, suddenly it’s one of the universe’s great unexplained mysteries.

 

Comment #42: Egnu Cledge  on  12/15  at  12:55 PM

If believers really clung to belief because they see it as a “get out of death free” card, why are they still so upset when people die? Do they really truly believe they’re going to see their loved ones again, or not?

Because we’re shallow.  Honestly, every human being is shallow in that they don’t want those they love to ever die and go away.  They want them to live on and be with them forever.  For an atheist I imagine they believe that religion and an afterlife is a balm for living when it isn’t it’s an acceptance and a hope that we grow and move on from the mortal coil.  It doesn’t make us less susceptible to emotion, if anything it makes us more.

So you’re saying you don’t actually literally believe heaven is for real, you just hope it is. Isn’t that where we started? It was the christians, not the atheists, saying that belief is a “balm for the living”.

And why would that make you more susceptible to emotion?

Comment #43: Egnu Cledge  on  12/15  at  01:00 PM

Alex, may I kindly suggest that you may be a dimwit?

Comment #44: Egnu Cledge  on  12/15  at  01:01 PM

Atheism just means lack of belief in a deity, it’s a position in relation to a claim, not an ideology in itself.

I would like to agree but Ms. Marcotte has already made a post a few weeks ago pointing out the natural cohesion that atheism brings to eventually create a counter-ideology to christianity that inevitably mimics a progressive protestant administrative view on it.  It is a lack of a belief but the activists are organized in a group fashion thus forming a group that by any other name would be a religion.

Le sigh. For the billionth time, just sharing a lot of common ideas, or even an ideology, does not make you a religion. Amanda (and PZ, and myself) are building on the idea of an atheist community that is grounded in philosophical materialism and rational thought. Since reality has a well known liberal bias, it’s not unreasonable to link the atheist community to larger social justice and equality movements.

God isn’t vengeful, he is absolutely forgiving.

Sadly, the Catholic church isn’t.

Any good catholic realizes god isn’t going to come down and rain fire down upon us for screwing up.

Right. That’s why they had to build the Inquisition.

Then again atheism seems to rely on a sense of community more than religion does because of its natural outlier position, it doesn’t make it right or wrong but a minority in a sea of majority needs natural reinforcement in the mind to avoid the questioning feeling.

Talk about projection! I would say that until the advent of the internet, there was hardly any large-scale atheist community. Were naturally non-joiners.

Comment #45: Egnu Cledge  on  12/15  at  01:08 PM

Wow, you mean kind of like how many Christians—and you, right up there—assume that atheists are angry at God or Christians, or disillusioned with church, rather than simply lacking belief

No, not like that, because the atheist is incorrect here is because he’s projecting, whereas in your scenario, the believer is ignorant, rather than projecting his own distorted experience onto the nonbeliever.

Comment #46: Tyro  on  12/15  at  01:45 PM

No, not like that, because the atheist is incorrect here is because he’s projecting, whereas in your scenario, the believer is ignorant, rather than projecting his own distorted experience onto the nonbeliever.

How convenient for you to leave out my very next sentence in which I said that I have no meaningful experiences with church to project, “distorted” or otherwise.

Your suggestion that believers claim atheists are angry at god or disillusioned with church out of ignorance is absurd.  Religious people and atheists both occasionally project their respective belief or non-belief onto one another.  Personally, I think atheist projection that believers are smarter than their fairy tales would suggest but that they have good reasons to profess belief anyway isn’t particularly unkind.  It’s certainly kinder than believers’ routine presumptions about my background and claims that atheists are essentially rebellious teenagers throwing a collective tantrum.

Comment #47: themmases  on  12/15  at  02:10 PM

I’m a non-Christian religious person. My take on it is that I believe, but just because I believe something doesn’t necessarily make it true.

Which raises the question, so why believe it? And the only answer I really have is that my life seems to run smoother and happier when I behave according to the tenets of my faith.

Comment #48: dan_brodribb  on  12/15  at  02:19 PM

Religion is a solace to many people and it is even conceivable that some religion, somewhere, really is Ultimate Truth. But in many cases, being religious is merely a form of conceit. The Bible Belt faith in which I was brought up encouraged me to think that I was better than the rest of the world; I was ‘saved’ and they were ‘damned’ — we were in a state of grace and the rest of the world were ‘heathens’ and by ‘heathen’ they meant such people as our brother Mahmoud. It meant that an ignorant, stupid lout who seldom bathed and planted his corn by the phase of the Moon could claim to know the final answers of the Universe. That entitled him to look down his nose at everybody else. Our hymn book was loaded with such arrogance — mindless, conceited, self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us and us alone, and what hell everybody else was going to catch come Judgment Day.

Alex, baby, there are plenty of belief systems that have no central God but believe in supernatural shit, see the All American Muslim thread for further details.

Comment #49: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/15  at  02:20 PM

How convenient for you to leave out my very next sentence in which I said that I have no meaningful experiences with church to project, “distorted” or otherwise.

And you actually has that distorted perspective about what religious people believe?

I’m not just pulling my explanation out of my ass—it was also alluded to by the other atheists pointing out why Baggini had a total misunderstanding of the issue.

Comment #50: Tyro  on  12/15  at  02:26 PM

Gee, Alex…couldn’t it possibly be that people just really, really want to believe in ghosts because they desperately want there to be more to their existence than the 80-100 years they’re likely to get?

I happily confess that I’ll die full of the hope that I’ll immediately wake up in a green meadow where you get to play capture the flag with all your friends from summer camp in 1992, but I’m not counting on it.

Comment #51: dopus dei  on  12/15  at  02:27 PM

Just going from the summaries, I’m not sure this is terribly surprising. The things the majority of believers are affirming are the basics that you have to believe that you believe if you’re going to call yourself a christian. And pretty much all of them are safely ensconced in the distant past or after personal death. When you get to the stuff about biblical inerrancy or the deity acting in the world now the numbers go down substantially.

Comment #52: paul  on  12/15  at  02:27 PM

Alex, baby, there are plenty of belief systems that have no central God but believe in supernatural shit, see the All American Muslim thread for further details.

I do not believe at all in the supernatural. This universe did not come into being, it does not continue to be, except by the operation of natural and immutable laws. And I mean immutable, gentlemen. Everything that has ever happened, that is happening now, or that ever is to happen was, is, and will statistically connected with its predecessor event and with its successor event. If I did not believe that implicitly, I would lose all faith in the scientific method. For if one single ‘supernatural’ event or thing had ever occured or existed it would have constituted an entirely unpredictable even and would have initiated a series—a succession—of such events; a state of things no scientist will or can believe possible in an orderly universe.

First Lensman, E. E. (Doc) Smith.

You’re easily impressed,  Alex.

Comment #53: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/15  at  02:40 PM

@24 (& sorry, I’m probably derailing at this point):

I can see death, as presented without possibility of anything “after,” being scary enough to lots & lots of people that they simply can’t handle it, & seek the sort of “afterlife” or “other plane of existence” theory (always in living/consciousness terms) that religion provides, even if that portrayal is horrifying. Even the horror seems like something one can somehow negotiate (which of course is most of the rest of what religion provides).

I’ve never honestly imagined it myself as anything but a forever of nothingness, & “big sleep” doesn’t quite cover that. To me “sleep,” however “big,” means a) you dream; & b) you eventually wake up. Or, as you say, there’s not being born yet, which is (or appears) experientially identical but, to the living imagination, different at least in terms of potential. It’s harder to make peace with the reality of death: not merely the notion that for me, absolutely everything will end one day; but actually that everything else goes on just fine - it’s I who will absolutely end one day.

I don’t personally feel the need to run screaming from that prospect - yet - but glimpsing it & promptly scurrying for the most plausible afterlife theory certainly strikes me as an understandable human instinct.

<not so much ‘atheist’ as ‘heathen’>

Comment #54: GSDavis  on  12/15  at  02:46 PM

That depends a bit on which part of the Bible you’re reading. The New Testament portrays a much more forgiving God. Which confused me a bit as a child—we would alternately be given a picture of a harsh, punishing God and a kind, loving one. The latter idea stuck better.

That is the main benefit of fiction, isn’t it, to allow the reader to take from it what they will?

“I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”

- Albert Einstein, an atheist.

When you watch Celebrity Ghost Stories, what’s your reaction?

People will do anything to get on t.v. or my goodness, its sad so many people believe in bullshit.

Scientists have never proven there is no God.

No need. Chasing after supernatural fiction wasn’t what I got my degree for.

Comment #55: Rare Vos  on  12/15  at  03:06 PM

“Dark Avenger,
Scientists have never proven there is no God.”

...and theologians have never proven there is a god.  So what’s your point?...

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  12/15  at  03:08 PM

That’s because you can’t prove a negative, Alex.

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/15  at  03:17 PM

And you actually has that distorted perspective about what religious people believe?

I’m really only guessing about how to respond to this word salad, but no, I don’t think most religious people are only pretending to hold their professed beliefs.  Even without church experience, I’m actually constantly encountering sincerely religious people whether I want to or not.  Someone I used to know told me that he knew he believed in god, and the particulars of the Jesus story “just worked” for him.  Of course I believe him, because I can relate—it just doesn’t work for me.

I object to your condescending and untrue implication that this is a tendency particular to atheists.  It may be hard for me to accept that religious people literally believe in a bunch of dumb children’s stories, but I don’t actually deny that they do.

Comment #58: themmases  on  12/15  at  03:24 PM

Something I’ve just read seems oddly appros:

Lucretius’ On The Nature of Things in 1417. Here’s a quote from the dust jacket:

“It was a beautiful poem of the most dangerous ideas: that the universe functions without the aid of gods, that religious fear is damaging to human life, that pleasure and virtue are not opposites but intertwined, and that matter is made up of very small material particles in external motion, randomly colliding and swerving in new directions.”

 

Comment #59: judybrowni  on  12/15  at  03:28 PM

Alex, I’d stop if I were you.  All you’re doing is putting the ‘blind’ into ‘blind faith’.

Comment #60: Jayn Newell  on  12/15  at  03:31 PM

@Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte on 12/15 at 10:18 AM

I don’t see why death is so scary, I just don’t. Pain is scary, but religion has nothing to offer for that. Death is the big sleep. It’s as scary as not being born yet, which is to say, it’s not. Except to weirdo anti-choicers.

I really have to admit that I do see why death is frightening. I know that many atheist types say they feel differently, and that is fine. The end of my existence does scare me somewhat, I’ve just found ways to deal with it.

Comment #61: atheist  on  12/15  at  03:33 PM

I object to your condescending and untrue implication that this is a tendency particular to atheists

As far as my writing problems, I am posting from my iPhone, so some errors creep in. I think you are reading too much into my comment. Baggini obviously had no idea how believers actually thought, and the discussion of him pointed to the experience many atheists have of being churchgoers who dont believe and frequently think that all the other attendees don’t believe either but continue to go for their own reasons. And that act of projection is not like the counter-example that you raised.

I don’t actually deny that they [believe]

Well, plenty of atheists, namely the ones discussed in Amanda’s post, specifically Baginni and many of his peers, did actually think that and were quite surprised to discover otherwise. My big surprise was to discover that this was a topic of discussion among atheists and that apparently many had convinced themselves of this idea that people didn’t really believe, and that this was the crux of the argument over whether “New Atheism” had the right ideas about public engagement.

Comment #62: Tyro  on  12/15  at  03:45 PM

@Comment #71: Alex P. Keaton on 12/15 at 03:36 PM

Why does this discussion have to devolve into nastiness?  People are so mean on the internet.

We’re not sure how to take your statements. You say things that are off-topic, then become frustrated when folks respond with confusion or amusement. We try to be civil, but this is a space where logical arguments are the norm.

Comment #63: atheist  on  12/15  at  03:46 PM

Not only have I never seen an episode of Celebrity Ghost Stories, I did not know this show existed and assumed Alex P. Keaton was making it up.  But no, it’s real.  I went to the web site.

http://www.biography.com/tv/celebrity-ghost-stories

So yeah, um…I guess I have to withdraw from this argument.  Because I am not going to watch that, let me tell you.  OK, maybe the Fairuza Balk one.  If I’m ever really, really bored.

Comment #64: dopus dei  on  12/15  at  04:26 PM

“I have not gone off-topic and my argument has been completely logical.”

OKay, that’s the funniest damn thing I’ve read all day.  Can he actually be this clueless and still manage to remember to breathe?

Comment #65: Rare Vos  on  12/15  at  04:30 PM

Alex has got to be a Poe, right?

Comment #66: Matty  on  12/15  at  04:32 PM

Alex thinks just any amateur can be wrong on the internet.

At least some of the regulars flail with style.

Comment #67: themmases  on  12/15  at  04:44 PM

For vanishingly small values of “style.”

Comment #68: Matty  on  12/15  at  05:08 PM

You’re trying to get me to sink to your level.  It’s not going to happen.

Seeing as sinking to the level of someone above you would constitute a miracle (or at least bending physics in a way that might make Hawking’s head explode), maybe you should.

But you’re probably right.  It’s not going to happen.

Comment #69: Jayn Newell  on  12/15  at  06:27 PM

@81 Alex

Ooh. I’ll bite. Is “I Survived: Beyond and Back” about Near Death Experiences? It won’t make me question my atheism because 1) there are actually some pretty compelling scientific arguments for why those happen and 2) I have had one and it certainly didn’t make me question my atheism.

If those sorts of experiences are convincing to you, though, have I got a crazy-ass religion to sell you on based on my own Near Death Experience. When you die, your essence shrinks down really small and you go and live on a car tire. You will be welcomed into the arms of the little black things that live there and be able to wave goodbye to your friends and family before you go. (There was a bit more to my experience than that, but those are the highlights. My experience/dream matches up almost exactly with every other Near Death Experience I’ve heard about, except that I’m not silly enough to try to match the things I saw to an afterlife constructed from similar dreams and the wishes of Christian congregations. Similarly, since I don’t believe in any of that ridiculousness, it didn’t appear in my dream.)

Comment #70: Atheist, A Feminist  on  12/15  at  06:28 PM

Alex, baby, there are plenty of belief systems that have no central God but believe in supernatural shit, see the All American Muslim thread for further details.
Comment #54: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 12/15 at 02:20 PM

I am reminded of one study which showed that there were N percent of people who believed in Satan or a devil and N+ people who believed in Hell.  Apparently for the extra Hell believers there was some kind of self-service aspect to the afterlife.

Comment #71: oldfeminist  on  12/15  at  07:43 PM

The problem is that we atheists are held to ridiculously high standards regarding our behavior.  Believers have to be a Fred Phelps or Michele Bachmann level fundie before people start calling them strident and militant but simply publicly identifying as an atheist can get you labeled as such even if you don’t say anything critical of religion.  It’s similar to gays and lesbians being said to “shove their sexuality in people’s faces” by living out in the open.  And believers are allowed to proselytize without being considered extreme as long as they’re not obnoxious but not so for atheists.  Any attempts at persuasive arguments at all can get you characterized as a “fundamentalist evangelical atheist”. 

Comment #72: DonnaDiva  on  12/15  at  08:02 PM

oldfeminist, it should be noted that in some Buddhist traditions, hells aren’t eternal in the Christian sense, and that the preta, or “Hungry Ghost”, is a particular nasty representation of ones’ appetite dictating one’s posthumous fate:

Hungry Ghosts (Pretas) are pitable things. They are wasted creatures with huge, empty stomachs. Their necks are too thin to allow food to pass. So, they are constantly hungry.

Greed and jealousy lead to rebirth as a Hungry Ghost. The Hungry Ghost Realm often, but not always, is depicted between the Asura Realm and the Hell Realm. It is thought the karma of their lives was not quite bad enough for a rebirth in the Hell Realm but not good enough for the Asura Realm.

Psychologically, Hungry Ghosts are associated with addictions, compulsions and obsessions. People who have everything but always want more may be Hungry Ghosts.

And even those stuck in the Buddhist hell have a champion:

Ksitigarbha (Sanskrit: क्षितिगर्भ Kṣitigarbha) is a bodhisattva primarily revered in East Asian Buddhism, usually depicted as a Buddhist monk in the Orient. The name may be translated as “Earth Treasury”, “Earth Store”, “Earth Matrix”, or “Earth Womb”. Ksitigarbha is known for his vow to take responsibility for the instruction of all beings in the six worlds between the death of Gautama (Sakyamuni) Buddha and the rise of Maitreya Buddha, as well as his vow not to achieve Buddhahood until all hells are emptied. He is therefore often regarded as the bodhisattva of hell beings, as well as the guardian of children and patron deity of deceased children and aborted fetuses in Japanese culture. Usually depicted as a monk with a nimbus around his shaved head, he carries a staff to force open the gates of hell and a wish-fulfilling jewel to light up the darkness.Ksitigarbha (Sanskrit: क्षितिगर्भ Kṣitigarbha) is a bodhisattva primarily revered in East Asian Buddhism, usually depicted as a Buddhist monk in the Orient. The name may be translated as “Earth Treasury”, “Earth Store”, “Earth Matrix”, or “Earth Womb”. Ksitigarbha is known for his vow to take responsibility for the instruction of all beings in the six worlds between the death of Gautama (Sakyamuni) Buddha and the rise of Maitreya Buddha, as well as his vow not to achieve Buddhahood until all hells are emptied. He is therefore often regarded as the bodhisattva of hell beings, as well as the guardian of children and patron deity of deceased children and aborted fetuses in Japanese culture. Usually depicted as a monk with a nimbus around his shaved head, he carries a staff to force open the gates of hell and a wish-fulfilling jewel to light up the darkness.

Amanda, this website can handle Sanskrit.  That’s really bow-tie cool wink

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/15  at  08:30 PM

And no one here can prove God does exist either, so we all decide what we think is most likely, based on the evidence at hand, of which there is none whatsoever. So I’m going with “Not bloody likely!” complete with exaggeratedly posh British accent.

Comment #74: thecynicalromantic  on  12/15  at  09:43 PM

<blockquote>You’re forgetting one other factor in belief—comfort. I’ll admit this is part of the reason I still have faith, it’s a lot more comforting to believe there is an afterlife than to think that some day I’ll be gone forever. I’ve been athiest, but it didn’t stick.</blockquote

You forgot authority and explanation a la Freud.  Though most people claim to want free will and the ability to choose, IME, push them, and they really don’t.  They hate doubt and ambiguity.  They crave someone to tell them what to do.

Comment #75: phylosopher  on  12/15  at  09:48 PM

Anyone else hear echoes of Harold Bloom “American Religion” in the background on this?

Comment #76: phylosopher  on  12/15  at  10:04 PM

I believe in God.  No one here can prove that God does not exist.  There’s really nothing else to say.

No one here can prove that Vishnu does not exist either.

Do you believe in him? He’s the creator of a much more vast universe than YHWH.

Posts like this demonstrate that when you say “My posts have been entirely logical,” you are lying. Perhaps you are lying to yourself just as much as to the rest of us, but it is still dishonesty.

According to your childish illogical reasoning, you should believe in anything you read. Anything you can think of. Anything humans can imagine, from invisible dragons in my garage to microscopic alien civilizations on Saturn’s rings to YHWH to Vishnu to Amaterasu to Isis and everything in between. You can’t prove that Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, and the Death Star never existed. The list of thing you can’t prove don’t exist is literally infinite.

That’s why this thread is getting “mean,” as you say. Because people are accurately observing that you seem simple-minded. You think your arguments are logical but they’re not.

Comment #77: SallyStrange  on  12/15  at  10:33 PM

*shakes head sadly* Alex are you a youngish man, perchance? Your words have that ring of youthful certainty untroubled by doubt. Part of your willingness to believe in ghost stories might have something to do with your faith. Do you put much store on ‘testimony’?

Humans are remarkably credulous. Our memories and our perceptions are very succeptable to manipulation. We can talk or think our way into believing we saw something we did not (or didn’t see something we did) very, very, simply (fighteningly so). There has been much research on this and some very well publicised examples such as those very unfortunate individuals who became convinced that they’d been abused as part of satanic rituals while in day care.

Do you also believe in aliens? There are many, many stories of people who are convinced they’ve been abducted. How much credence do you give those?

Comment #78: JC  on  12/15  at  11:37 PM

Talk about projection! I would say that until the advent of the internet, there was hardly any large-scale atheist community. Were naturally non-joiners.

Yeah, that part jumped out at me, too.  But conservatives are by their nature incapable of empathy.

 

Comment #79: Punditus Maximus  on  12/15  at  11:49 PM

@Alex

Please tell me where I criticized the program. I said nothing about the program itself just that if it concerns Near Death Experiences, it will do nothing to change my mind as an atheist.

Maybe you thought I was being snarky (and I was a bit) in trying to sell you my vision of the afterlife, but it was literally what I saw/experienced/dreamed when I almost died. Other than the specific figures and locations in it, it EXACTLY follows every narrative of such experiences. If my own experience of an “afterlife,” ridiculous as it seems when one is not in the process of dying, didn’t convince me to believe in the supernatural, no one else’s account will either. So, what was my criticism? I didn’t mock the program, only your apparent tendency to believe fantastical stories that you hear.

Comment #80: Atheist, A Feminist  on  12/16  at  12:30 AM

“most people who go to church actually do so because they genuinely believe in all that stuff laid out in the Nicene Creed.”

That’s why the Nicene creed is repeated every week.  It’s almost impossible to repeat something over and over and not start believing it.  You may go to church for any number of reasons, but if you go for very long you’ll start to believe what they believe.  That’s the point of church.  It’s a very old, very effective system.

Comment #81: Ape Man  on  12/16  at  09:03 AM

Also, it is in fact possible to adhere to a religious system without believing all the nonsense popular tradition stuff.  But it’s much rarer than outsiders imagine; confined mostly to priests, ministers, religious scholars, etc.  Ironic, but true.

Comment #82: Ape Man  on  12/16  at  09:06 AM

You’re trying to get me to sink to your level. It’s not going to happen.

You vastly overestimate your own importance.  I’m mocking you.  I don’t give a fuck what you do.

There’s another show on Biography that will make you question your atheism, aside from the impeccable argument I have made (kidding).

The show is called “I Survived: Beyond and Back”.

 

Wow.  I’m embarrassed on your behalf and on the behalf of all theists everywhere if this is the best you can do evidence-wise.  “Near death” experiences have already been explained by scientific research.  You’re really scrapping through the bottom of the barrel at this point.

I believe in God. No one here can prove that God does not exist. There’s really nothing else to say.

I can fly.  Like, jump right off the roof and fly away like a bird.  Since you can’t prove that I can’t fly, by your own standards, you have to believe me.  There’s really nothing else to say.

Comment #83: Rare Vos  on  12/16  at  11:14 AM

Ah, but you’re wrong. *I* can fly.  It’s a miracle!  And, millions of people have seen me fly.  Just because you haven’t seen me fly doesn’t mean I can’t.  Just because you’ve never heard of a human that can fly doesn’t mean none can.  According to you, that is.  You said that, if someone can’t prove god doesn’t exist, he does.  Since you can’t prove I can’t fly, and I have millions of eyewitnesses who say I can, you have to believe I can.  By your own “logic”. 

Sounds really silly, doesn’t it. 

No one responded about your worthless NYT link because its an opinion piece done by someone who evidently doesn’t understand the appeal to authority fallacy.  I fail to see what we’re supposed to get from this, apart from “theism is illogical”.

Comment #84: Rare Vos  on  12/16  at  02:04 PM

“It’s actually very easy to prove you cannot fly.  You’re a human.  Humans cannot fly.  Done.”

...in case you hadn’t noticed, humans fly all the time, all over this planet.  Granted, we use mechanical enhancements (airplanes, parachutes, helicopters, etc.) to do so, but we can fly.  This was thought impossible by many people as late as the last years of the 19th Century / first couple years of the 20th Century.  The people who had somehow proved empirically that human flight was impossible were proved wrong…

Comment #85: MikeEss  on  12/16  at  02:37 PM

Amanda, #24:  one of my favorite Twain quotes:  “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”  For me it’s not the being dead that scares me, since as Twain points out it will be the same as it was for all that time I didn’t exist before.  I do like being alive, though, and I’m certainly well past the halfway point of my life, especially given the lifespan of most males in my family, and I’m not looking forward to the transition itself.

This. I just finished teaching a Fiction of Horror class, and when I spoke about the “fear of death” as a classic anxiety that manifests in such fictions, I made sure to break it down for the students: there’s fear of death (which really translates to “fear of Hell” if you’re devout), and fear of dying. I pointed out that nowadays, many of us mostly fear the “dying” part—the physical and emotional anguish of it all. Or, as someone said upthread, “the transition.”

Comment #86: Ranylt  on  12/16  at  03:10 PM

Is… someone trying to use Celebrity Ghost Stories as proof of the supernatural? Seriously?

This is the best troll I’ve seen all week. A truly inspired take on a typically staid subject. Excellent performance. I take my hat off to you, sir.

P.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_P._Keaton

Comment #87: Jerry Vinokurov  on  12/16  at  04:12 PM

He can ape the dismissiveness but he just can’t…  quite…

Comment #88: themmases  on  12/16  at  05:10 PM

Way to deliberately ignore me, Alex, you gormless coward. Like I said, the list of things you can’t prove don’t exist is literally infinite. It is limited only by the human imagination, which is endlessly inventive.

You can’t prove Vishnu, Shiva, and Shakti don’t exist. Please explain why you worship YHWH instead of them.

You think you’re being logical, but you’re not.

Comment #89: SallyStrange  on  12/16  at  05:45 PM

“MikeEss, I receive your argument thusly: Just as the doubters of humans’ ability to find a way to elevate from the earth for an extended period of time were proven wrong, so is it possible that atheists will one day be proven wrong on the existence of God.”

“Receive my argument” any way you like, but the fact is that you can try all you want to prove something does not exist, and your “proof” will hold until it does, and then your argument is proven wrong.  Somebody pulls up a coelacanth on the end of a fishing line and your absolute conviction that it had been extinct for millions of years is blown wide open.  Somebody says that light can’t be affected by gravity, and then somebody else proves it is.  Somebody says the sound barrier can’t be broken, and then Chuck Yeager does it.

Yes, indeed, it is absolutely possible that on some dark day in the future God will reveal herself by striking dead all us godless atheists who doubted her existence.  It is also absolutely possible that I might sprout wings and be able to fly with no artificial technology, and while I think the possibility of my sprouting wings is infinitely more likely than God revealing herself, in actuality the odds are such that an intelligent betting person would definitely side with No God and No Wings.

It’s possible to prove you can do something, but impossible to prove you can’t.  It is possible to prove something does exist, but impossible to prove something doesn’t.

This should all be very familiar to anyone with a high school education — which begs the question of just when it was the process of maturation ceased in your case…

Comment #90: MikeEss  on  12/16  at  06:01 PM

@Comment #109: MikeEss on 12/16 at 05:01 PM

This should all be very familiar to anyone with a high school education — which begs the question of just when it was the process of maturation ceased in your case…



It could also be we were communicating with an actual high schooler, in which case the maturation process may be normal. This was my original take on Alex P. Keaton: a child posting on a blog.

Comment #91: atheist  on  12/16  at  07:02 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.