Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: An Announcement Previous entry: Because people didn’t make enough jokes about “Alien” when you were pregnant

Ben Shapiro And I Have A Skirt Steak Beef

ConservativesMusicRace

imageBen Shapiro declares bravely that RAP IS CRAP, because it’s all the blacks with their banging and their tim-tutting and clothes branded with obscenities like ENYCE and FUBU and POLO.

Today, Grammy-winning rapper T.I. (Total Imbecile? Thug Idiot?) was sentenced to 18 months behind bars for illegally owning machine guns and silencers.  In the aftermath of his arrest, prosecutors informed T.I. that he could serve two decades in prison; he quickly agreed to 1000 hours of community service, touring around the U.S. talking to teens about the problems with drugs and gangs.  MTV made a show about him called “T.I.’s Road to Redemption.”  This from a guy who dealt drugs as a teen and got busted for coke in 1998.

So, someone who did something wrong (and why do I get the feeling that an incredibly successful private white citizen who owned firearms and had been convicted of a nonviolent crime a decade ago wouldn’t get the same treatment?) goes on a prominent tour to redeem himself.  Of course, he should be shunned and scorned for that, because Negro.

Here’s the thing: no matter how many hours of community service T.I. does, it will never make up for the crap he puts into the minds of his listeners.  His biggest hit is “Whatever You Like.”  Here’s a sample lyric “Whatever You Like”: Late night sex so wet you’re so tight …Let me put this big boy in yo life / The thang get so wet, it hit so right.

Whatever You Like may be the worst song ever written, but it’s more because of the shallow materialism and patronizing misogyny than the offers of sex after midnight.  In fact, if Toby Keith released 2 AM (It’s When I Did You, it might be the least terrible thing he ever produced.

Not surprisingly, T.I. has six children from three women.  The kids, sadly, have been saddled with names out of the WTF Name Dictionary: Messiah Ya’Majesty (after Barack Obama, no doubt), Domani Uriah, Clifford “King,” Major Philand, Zonnique, and Deyjah (who will no doubt be labeled Vu sooner or later).  When Clifford (T.I.’s namesake) is the luckiest kid in terms of names, you’ve got a problem.

Haha, because he worships Barack Obama because he’s black and ghetto and his kids have funny names!  BAM.  Again, I wish I could be surprised that Shapiro manages to point out something wrong and then totally miss what’s wrong with it because of his preconceptions about black people’s favorite pastimes (which include fucking uncontrollably while reading TANF brochures covered in crack residue), but I can’t.  Shapiro is literally focusing on every single wrong thing imaginable, and here’s why.

There’s nothing wrong with hip hop per se.  The roots of hip hop come from social protest, outrage and even some form of cultural outreach.  NWA, Public Enemy, all the legendarily scary black men that are still referred to when hopelessly clueless conservatives reference the “hip hop culture”, they were as much ambassadors from an invisible underclass as they were gangstas or dealers or anything else.  Their success came from the legitimacy of their identity, and the credence it lent to their message.  What happened, particularly after Tupac and Biggie died, was that the identity became the totality of the message.  There’s a three-album arc to most mainstream rap artists now, although some have condensed that to two: the first album is biographical, the second is partially biographical, but dealing with how things have changed, the third is entirely about how amazing their life is. 

Mainstream hip hop is simply a commodity, one that is largely sold by middle-aged white people to young white people.  Its inherent problem (and its victory for the status quo) is that it took a generation of young black men (and women) who came from the ghetto and were gangsters and became millionaires based on talent, and birthed a second and third generation who are largely made into millionaires based on their talent at talking about a generalized stereotype of ghetto/gangster lifestyles (and they are separate things, people).  It turns a genre that was based on a startlingly effective anger, dissatisfaction and even bitter wistfulness about what happened to an entire section of America over generations and instead turned it into a bite-size celebration of those same problems. 

Nas didn’t build Queensbridge, Jay-Z didn’t build Marcy Projects.  To say that hip hop causes the epidemic problems that face poor inner-city blacks is like saying The Diary of Anne Frank caused fascism. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Jesse Taylor on 08:02 PM • (145) Comments

I’m pretty sure “OMG RAP IS TEH HORRUBUL” is at least a decade out-of-favor. The only people who still whine about rap are homeschoolers, the Klan, and Bill O’Reilly.

Wow, BigHollywood really is unemployable Republican’s charity work-service now, isn’t it? I’d try to soak up some of that wingnut welfare if I thought I could fake up a “ACTERS ARE DUM AND GEY” rant…

Comment #1: Scott  on  03/31  at  08:29 PM

“To say that hip hop causes the epidemic problems that face poor inner-city blacks is like saying The Diary of Anne Frank caused fascism.”

Fascism is caused by liberals.  If Anne Frank’s family were liberals, then of course they helped bring about fascism and are at fault for their own demise. 

Besides, as all good conservatives know, the victim is always responsible for being victimized.  If those Negroes would just live in better places, they wouldn’t have all these problems…

[/snark]

Comment #2: MikeEss  on  03/31  at  08:43 PM

Mainstream hip hop is simply a commodity, one that is largely sold by middle-aged white people to young white people.

Yup.

What’s amazing about the idiocy of that whole big hollywood blog is that they have no fucking clue about the entertainment industry as an industry.

Comment #3: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/31  at  08:44 PM

Commercial hip-hop is total crap and I can’t stand it. I don’t like it because it’s mostly very lazy musically and the rap is almost always just terrible. I also think it sends an awful message about black folks to young people of all races.

But you know what? I think almost all heavily-promoted commercial music is total crap. So that makes me… middle-aged?

Comment #4: felagund  on  03/31  at  08:52 PM

This was an across-the-board great post, Jesse.  In general, any post that points out what a simpering doofus Ben Shapiro is is going to get my approval, but the added insights into hip hop—its history, its virtues, and its current problems—elevates this post from clever to brilliant.  Well done.

Comment #5: Bradley  on  03/31  at  09:06 PM

Commercial hip-hop is total crap and I can’t stand it.

1.  What you said further down in your post.  “Commercial” anything is crap.  Commerical Italian food is crap (Olive Garden).  Commercial musical theatre is crap (the recent Disneyfication of Broadway, though many would argue that Broadway was commercialized crap way before that).  Shit, someone who’d only experienced blogs via major media outlets attempting to cash in on the trend would think all blogs were crap. 

2.  Like other genres, rap and hip-hop have their high and low points.  I’m a huge fan of Bollywood, which puts out piles of awful shit and maybe 2 or 3 watchable films a year (and maybe 5 honest-to-god good films per decade).  I got into Bollywood watching recent good stuff like Dil Se and Lagaan.  People who’ve only seen 5 minutes of some laughable Salman Khan vehicle are probably going to think “Indian film is crap and I can’t stand it.”

3.  I think it’s important to be aware that putting entire genres off limits which just so happen to be associated with certain minority groups smacks of just the teensiest bit of racism.  I have the same issue with people who claim that X ethnic cuisine “always” makes them sick.  Last I heard you can’t be allergic to a geopolitical concept, sorry.

Comment #6: The Opoponax  on  03/31  at  09:21 PM

The reason “commercial” hip-hop is “crap” is because it is just the latest in a centuries old American Popular Entertainment Tradition: Minstrelsy. The slang talking over-sexed blinged out dandy character who rhymes about his comical attempts to achieve social status through imprudent use of his money (which, of course, he procured through illegal means) goes back to the mid 18th century. White popular musicians get to play with a whole host of archetypes but black artists have to work with just one or risk commercial failure. It’s not like there aren’t a shit load of gospel singers and blues singers and conscious rappers and black punk rockers and what not. There are. It’s just you don’t get on MTV that way. Even rappers who have “transcended” the genre limitations (Kanye, Jay-Z, Andre3k, etc.) have to pay their dues first and work with the stereotypes. If Kanye had dropped 808’s and Heartbreaks in 2000 and went on to make quirky autotune records for the next 9 years, he would’ve been a college radio fad and been lucky to open for TV on the Radio or what have you. You don’t get a record deal that way. White America doesn’t know how to deal with that. And Black America barely has enough disposable income to sustain that kind of career. It certainly doesn’t have the purchasing power to vault that kind of artist into superstardom. Not because they’re poor, just because they’re 18% of the population or whatever it is these days.

And while hip-hop has always been revolutionary and political and does come from protest roots; it did technically start at a birthday party and sex and drugs and money has always been part of the culture. And there’s not a damn thing to be ashamed about that. It’s not like they’re rapping about suicide and Satan and how lonely and sad they are and all the wack shit white people make songs out of.

Comment #7: Etchasketchist  on  03/31  at  09:33 PM

So I guess Mr. Shapiro is going to get up in Jason Lee’s business for naming his kid “Pilot Inspektor.”  Because you know only black people give their kids stupid names.

Comment #8: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  09:44 PM

And while hip-hop has always been revolutionary and political and does come from protest roots; it did technically start at a birthday party

It might just be because I’ve been reading lots of Emma Goldman lately, but I find it laughable that “revolutionary/political” and “birthday party” (or, hell, even “sex and drugs”) are apparently diametric opposites. 

Because you know only black people give their kids stupid names.

Yeah.  Like, for instance, Clifford.

Comment #9: The Opoponax  on  03/31  at  09:50 PM

Because you know only black people give their kids stupid names.

Who knew Gwyneth Paltrow* was black?

(mother of Apple, if you don’t keep up on these things)

Comment #10: Mnemosyne  on  03/31  at  09:58 PM

You know, about 20 years ago I lived in Oakland CA, in a not-so-good area (but the studio apt was fantastic, big kitchen & bath, 12’ ceilings. Utilities paid, except phone)

Anyhow, I rode the bus & walked a lot, having no car.  I heard a lot of rap, and I thought it was very interesting.  Really, really interesting, perhaps true poetry (with exceptions no doubt). It described, well, real life in some parts of the African American world.  Perhaps exaggerated, over sexualized and so on, but I thought it was good.  It’s too bad I am not an intellectual, or well-educated, or I could explain it better.

Shapiro is supposed to be an intellectual, certainly he’s had an expensive education and all that.  What a CREEP.  Probably impotent, too.

Comment #11: Kwillow  on  03/31  at  09:59 PM

I cannot think of a bigger waste of time than an essay on the topic, “BLANK is stupid, and if you like it, you’re stupid too.”

Jesus. If you don’t like rap songs (or sci fi, video games, romance novels, epic poetry, or whatever the fuck), then DON’T LISTEN TO/READ/WATCH/PLAY THEM. How goddamned hard is that?

Comment #12: Bitter Scribe  on  03/31  at  10:13 PM

But Bitter Scribe, don’t you understand? Black people! Black people!

You see? You see?

Comment #13: Scott  on  03/31  at  11:00 PM

MTV made a show about him called “T.I.’s Road to Redemption.” This from a guy who dealt drugs as a teen and got busted for coke in 1998.

Because if anyone doesn’t deserve redemption, it’s people who did regrettable things when they were young.  Redemption is a privilege reserved for people who have nothing to be redeemed from.

It’s nice to see that Ben isn’t losing his genius for stupidity as he ages.

Comment #14: Kyso K  on  03/31  at  11:16 PM

illegally owning machine guns and silencers

HOW QUICKLY WE FORGET OUR NRA TALKING POINTS WHEN IT’S A BLACK PERSON WITH GUNS.

Comment #15: JupiterPluvius  on  03/31  at  11:40 PM

“Messiah Ya’Majesty”
Wait, seriously? Did I fall asleep and wake up in some sort of hip-hop Gundam 00?

Comment #16: Devonian  on  03/31  at  11:41 PM

I like the song TI does with Rihanna (Live Your Life).  The “look in the mirror / keep on shinin’” line always makes me fist-pump when I hear it.

Comment #17: themann1086  on  03/31  at  11:58 PM

Why do old white dudes hate all names that didn’t make the top twenty baby name list?  At least half of those names are in baby name indexes.  Even making up a name makes sense because at some point someone had to. 

Focusing on superficial trivial shit like this just proves Ben Shapiro is a trivial person who lacks the brain power to understand the world around him in any meaningful way.

Comment #18: semi_factual  on  04/01  at  12:01 AM

In other words:  “Old Man Yells at Cloud.”

Comment #19: Captain Bathrobe  on  04/01  at  12:04 AM

Mainstream hip hop is simply a commodity, one that is largely sold by middle-aged Jewish people to young white people

FTFY. 

I’m waiting for the next article in Lawyer Ben’s series: How Jews have exploited blacks in the record industry since, like, forever.

It’ll be a long wait, I expect.

Comment #20: Henry Holland  on  04/01  at  12:43 AM

“Wait, seriously? Did I fall asleep and wake up in some sort of hip-hop Gundam 00?”

It really, really annoys me when people give their kids stupid fucking names—I’m torn between “Apple?  Who does that to their kid?” and “Surely the parents are just fucking with the paparazzi” as a response—especially when the stupidity involves cutesy-weird spellings of otherwise standard-issue names.  Having said that, if you’re going to do it, you might as well go for broke.  The kid’s probably not going to catch any more flak over a non-standard name like Messiah Ya’Majesty than he would over a no-longer-standard name like Jehosaphat (or Uriah, or Major, both of which may well be names drawn from lower branches of the family tree).

Comment #21: preying mantis  on  04/01  at  12:50 AM

Nice use of an obscure Simpsons reference, Captain Bathrobe.


Anyway, I sort of don’t get making fun of people’s names. Granted, some of them sound funny. There was a kid in my high school named Yufuk (pronounced “you fuck”). But if they’re just names that are unfamiliar to you, it’s just plain dumb to make fun of them. A name is something that’s supposed to identify you from others. So why not make it unique?

And about popular rap music, yes, it’s all a sham. I think Talib Kweli said something like “an angry black man is easy to market.” It’s all a marketing scheme.

Comment #22: Emily  on  04/01  at  12:52 AM

i admit, freely and loudly (maybe “brag” is a better word than :admit”, for these purposes) that i *HATE* rap, and most hip-hop that i have been exposed to. not ALL of it - there are some rap songs, some hip-hop songs, but they are few and far between. but, in my defense, if anyone cares, i am (or, at least, was) a classically trained musician and singer - there’s a LOT of music that just sets my teeth on edge (we are NOT discussing Britany, the woman who cannot sing. sigh). most rap is, well, rapped atonally. i have perfect pitch. it does not mix.
i like Rhianna, she has a gorgous voice, very VERY solid support, perfect pitch and wonderful breath control - at least, what i have heard (which, granted, none of it was live, so it may be studio tricks)
i adore everything Queen Latifah has recorded.
and, sadly, i also adore MC Hammer :D
my favoritest band EVAR is Boston. my favoritist song ever is Moonlight Sonata.. so i’m probably not the person to go to about music anyway.

anyway. Deyjah is a nice name. of course, being a sci-fi geek, i can’t help but think that this is just a respelling of “Dejah”, as in Dejah Thoris, Princess of Mars (Edgar Rice Burroghs, people! ya know, she married Captain John Carter of Virginia? ok, ok, they came out in what, the 20s?) is TI a sci-fi geek? i would listen to sci-fi rap! (ha! i do! its all parodies at the moment, but still!)

and its not as if there was a couple (in Washington, i think) who sued a grocery store because the store wouldn’t put their kids name on a cake - because they had named their son ADOLPH HITLER.
and wasn’t there a kid somewhere in Scandanavia named “Superman”?!
and hell, i went to school with a girl named TEQUILA. for fucks sake, EVERYONE has stupid ass names. my real name means “Princess of God”. my dad’s name is Barney (it USED to be Jefry. spelled Jefry. thats why he hated it.) my mother’s middle name is VERN. my sister is named Leia, after Princess Leia (its SUPPOSED to be spelled Leah, you know). that’s just *my* family, and just the close family - i have a cousin named Thundercloud. EVERYONE MAKES UP NAMES

Comment #23: denelian  on  04/01  at  12:52 AM

There are those out there who patronize the African-American community by praising rappers like T.I.  Folks like John Kerry, who infamously stated, “I’m fascinated by Rap and Hip-Hop.  I think there’s a lot of poetry in it. There’s a lot of anger, a lot of social energy in it. And I think you’d better listen to it pretty carefully, ’cause it’s important.”  Folks like Barack Obama, who proclaims that many in the African-American community must accept more social responsibility, and simultaneously praises militant anti-Bush rappers like Ludacris as “great talents and great businessmen.”

I blame those “folks” who patronize the white community by allowing Dick Cheney and Carrot Top to exist. Also Jackson Brown and Jimmy Buffet. Hate them fuckers.

Comment #24: mir  on  04/01  at  01:08 AM

Ben Shapiro is just following in the well worn footsteps of his Wingnut Welfare predecessors, learning to play The Base like a musical instrument, carefully producing just the right notes to elicit their unthinking allegiance.

Ultimately he’s probably aiming to become the next Jonah Goldberg.  I wonder if he has an evil harridan of a mother to pave his way, just like Jonah…?

Comment #25: MikeEss  on  04/01  at  01:16 AM

“who proclaims that many in the African-American community must accept more social responsibility, and simultaneously praises militant anti-Bush rappers like Ludacris as “great talents and great businessmen.””

fascinating. you have to like gw bush to be socially responsible? it would make sense if bush himself were socially responsible…

Comment #26: chibi  on  04/01  at  01:21 AM

The kid’s probably not going to catch any more flak over a non-standard name like Messiah Ya’Majesty than he would over a no-longer-standard name like Jehosaphat (or Uriah, or Major, both of which may well be names drawn from lower branches of the family tree).

I saw a baby name book that seriously claimed that the Biblical name Dorcas was going to make a big comeback.

Say it out loud.  Yeah, that one might be grounds for taking the kids away in some states.

Comment #27: Mnemosyne  on  04/01  at  01:24 AM

Because if anyone doesn’t deserve redemption, it’s people who did regrettable things when they were young.  Redemption is a privilege reserved for people who have nothing to be redeemed from.

Who was it said “when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible”? Yeah, I doubt T.I. will ever do the damage George Effing Bush did.

Deyjah is a nice name. of course, being a sci-fi geek, i can’t help but think that this is just a respelling of “Dejah”, as in Dejah Thoris, Princess of Mars

That’s what I thought too when I read it, and the name doesn’t sound all that odd to me because my neighbor’s best friend is named Dejah as well—not sure of the spelling, but I think I’ll ask next time I see her. I came to the name via Heinlein’s Number of the Beast, where one of the characters is named Dejah Thoris, but is nicknamed Deety. I don’t recommend the book.

Comment #28: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  04/01  at  01:39 AM

I look forward to his technorap album called TI-994A

Comment #29: norbizness  on  04/01  at  01:47 AM

What is the purpose of the disgusting lyrics of many rap songs?

Comment #30: futureshock  on  04/01  at  01:54 AM

What is the purpose of the disgusting lyrics of many rap songs?

Giving crazyass Republican pundits something to freak out about?

Comment #31: Scott  on  04/01  at  02:05 AM

What is the purpose of disgusting lyrics in rock music, futureeshock?

Comment #32: No One of Consequence  on  04/01  at  02:14 AM

What is the purpose of the disgusting lyrics of many rap songs?

Probably the same purpose of similar lyrics in rock, country, pop, ummm, pretty much any musical genre with lyrics. Whatcha got?

Comment #33: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  04/01  at  02:17 AM

I like Olive Garden.  *snif*

Comment #34: Punditus Maximus  on  04/01  at  02:18 AM

Don’t feel bad Punditus Maximus.  I ate there yesterday and it may become a habit.  Its withing walking distance of my work and a girl can only eat so much Arbys.

Comment #35: semi_factual  on  04/01  at  02:59 AM

How bizarre. I wrote a rap song called Rap is Crap over 15 years ago, but it had nothing to do with race or crime or negative influences. It was about rap being spoken instead of sung, which to me meant it wasn’t quite music. It didn’t fit the category. It started: Now I sure like good music and such/Some I like a little and some I like much/I sure love Jazz with its dissonant chord/And when I listen to it don’t never feel bored/But Rap…is crap/So don’t make me listen to it any more times/It’s not even music it’s just talking in rhymes…lots more verses, I’ve got it written down somewhere.

To reiterate: this is absolutely disconnected from whatever case Shapiro’s trying to make. (What a rapper names his kids? Which is tangential or significant exactly how?) Cause and effect is always tricky, with him apparently an impossible task.

Comment #36: daphne  on  04/01  at  03:11 AM

To say that hip hop causes the epidemic problems that face poor inner-city blacks is like saying The Diary of Anne Frank caused fascism.

Indeed, this is central to my point.

Comment #37: Johnny Pez  on  04/01  at  03:17 AM

Well daphne, if wack ass rhymes like that were the best you could do, it’s probably for the best that you avoid rap.  Still, at least you tried.  I’m really annoyed by people who say stuff like “Aw that rap is just people talking!  Any fool could do that!”  My response to that is always the same: do it.  If it’s so damn easy, let’s hear some.  Nobody’s done it yet, but to be fair hardcore rap-haters are a rare breed these days.

This isn’t music?  It’s just crap?

I’m from where the gold and diamonds are ripped from the earth,
Right next to the slave castles where the water is cursed,
From where police brutality’s not half as nice,
It makes the hood in America look like paradise,
Compared to the AIDS infested Caribbean slum,
African streets where the passports an American gun,
From where they massacre people and try to keep it quiet,
And spend the next 25 years tryna deny it,
I’m from where they cut your hands off if you make a fist,
And niggaz throw coca cause the job market doesn’t exist,
Except slave labour modern day company store,
And peacekeepers don’t ever ever ever come here no more,
From where the bombs that they used to drop on Vietnam,
Still has children born deformed 8 months before they gone,
I’m from where they lost the true meaning of the Qur’an,
Cause heroin is not compatible with Islam,
And niggaz know that but grow that poppy seed anyway,
Cause that food drop parachute does not come everyday,
I’m from where people pray to the gods of they conquerors,
And practically every presidents a money launderer,
From where the only place democracy’s acceptable,
Is if Americas candidate is electable,
And they might even have a black president but he’s useless,
Cause he does not control the economy stupid!

-Immortal Technique, The 3rd World

Comment #38: Jrod  on  04/01  at  03:49 AM

To back up Jrod’s point:

This is my resume slash resignation
A ransom note with proposed legislation
A fevered ultimatum you should take it verbatim
Cause I got two bangin’ pieces and you don’t wanna date em’
Flyin’ kites for my folks at home
Who takin’ tokes alone
We payin’ rent on shit they ain’t even sposed to own
Narratin’ through my verse, agitatin’ when ya curse
It’s a million motherfuckers just waitin’ on the first
Anticipatin’ on the worst, wanna weightin’ up ya purse
Shook the jobby job down at noon and don’t disperse
They wouldn’t pay ya ass as far as they can throw you
They think you punkin’ but they don’t know you
Dissin’ turf operetta, play with twelve shot berettas
Buy the Burger King workers and we slappin’ on ya lettuce
Wrote that in the back of those apartments
A coupon from agricultural departments
When we put down the X-O, we can let the threats go
And start shit, it’s the ghetto manifesto

Boots Riley, The Coup

Comment #39: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  04/01  at  04:20 AM

I dunno. Can I see the sheet music? Or does everybody play by ear?  PS I didn’t read all of the poetry since, you know, it’s not about to convert me.

Comment #40: daphne  on  04/01  at  04:27 AM

It was about rap being spoken instead of sung, which to me meant it wasn’t quite music. It didn’t fit the category…

I dunno. Can I see the sheet music? Or does everybody play by ear?

I can honestly say I have less respect for this viewpoint than I do for Shapiro’s, which is not much. You’re like the kind of person who looks at Picasso’s Guernica and says “What the hell is that supposed to be? A bull, my ass. Doesn’t he even understand perspective?”

And you can kiss Louis Jordan’s ass, too.

I hate appeals to authority, but I hate this bullshit more, so here you go:

Music is an art form whose medium is sound organized in time.

You can look it up.

Comment #41: Auguste  on  04/01  at  04:46 AM

And I can honestly say the 3rd comment is an inapt analogy, while the first two, well, if you have to quote rap to rebut my point, you didn’t get the point.

Meanwhile, I knew looking up the rest of the lyrics wouldn’t go to waste. By the way, the following (which I wrote myself) is not music, though you could recite it to a background sound track:


Let’s listen to Folk in the key of G
It tells a story melodically
And Bluegrass is exhilarating
Banjo and guitar integrating

But Rap…is crap
So don’t make me listen to it any more times
It’s not even music, it’s just talking in rhymes

Now let’s hear some Soul and Motown
They just make me want to get down
I love a church choir singing Gospel
Too much of it? That’d be imposs’ble

And Big Band music still is great
That’s ‘cause it always was first rate
The low-down Blues they lift my spirit
But no more Rap – don’t wanna hear it

‘Cause Rap…is crap
Please don’t make me listen to it no more times
‘Cause it’s not music, it’s just talking in rhymes

Well Country with its twangy beat
It tells of love that’s bittersweet
And Reggae’s beat is syncopated
With soft lyrics understated

But Rap…is crap

Let’s hear it for that heavy Rock
It sends my body into shock
You know why they call it Classical
It’s lasted through ages harmonic and full
A symphony or a canticle
But oh that Rap is abominable

Please don’t make me listen to it one more time
Talk is cheap when it comes in a rhyme

You kids I know you think that I’m
Just an old fogie and past my prime
But if listening to Rap is all you do
Then I sure feel sorry for you

‘Cause Rap’s not music though to be sure
It is some kind of literature
So if that Rap is all you’re playing
There’s no music in your lives is what I’m saying

(‘Cause Rap…is crap)

So my Rap’s gone on long enough
Just promise me if you listen to that stuff
You’ll listen to REAL music some of the time
And balance the ridiculous with the sublime

Meanwhile. there oughta be a name for this type of degenerative argument, a one-thing-as-an-icon-for-something-else-entirely inevitability.

Comment #42: daphne  on  04/01  at  04:59 AM

Music is an art form whose medium is sound organized in time.

I’m totally making a t-shirt out of that.

Comment #43: banisteriopsis  on  04/01  at  05:08 AM

daphne, please see here and here. pfffft.

Comment #44: banisteriopsis  on  04/01  at  05:18 AM

“What’s more musical, a truck driving by a music school or a truck driving by a factory?”

Comment #45: weirdnoise  on  04/01  at  05:43 AM

What’s amazing about the idiocy of that whole big hollywood blog is that they have no fucking clue about the entertainment industry as an industry.

I suspect that they actually understand the industry just fine - they’re simply trying to keep the proles from catching on. They’re propagandists, not critics.

Comment #46: Dunc  on  04/01  at  06:00 AM

... Messiah Ya’Majesty (after Barack Obama, no doubt) ...

According to People, Messiah was born in 2000.

FAIL.

Comment #47: Thlayli  on  04/01  at  06:00 AM

I just can’t leave it alone. For people who will inevitably insist that hip-hop isn’t music because turntablism lacks a musical notation system, this may help.

Other topics might include people who miss the cultural narratives that are conveyed thorough the use of samples, and the extreme ignorance/elitism/racism of failing to understand where the music came from.

Comment #48: banisteriopsis  on  04/01  at  06:27 AM

Well, for me, it’s only music if MOZART wrote it. Typical example of right and proper music and lyrics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mir_den_Arsch_fein_recht_schön_sauber

Comment #49: AndersH  on  04/01  at  06:58 AM

Well, I watched the two utubes, both of which featured nice music. Then something about turntablism is TOO playing music, with which I agree. But then again that was about hip hop, because the previous poster said it was.

Maybe this will help. I wrote my poem in 1991. What I called rap - and the rap I heard all around me - may have expanded, let’s say, since then. (Maybe, for instance, Joyo in one of the videos’ singing is referred to as rap,  though to me it sounds more like the blues.) Then again, my neighbor across the street blares the rap I’m used to out his car window whenever he’s outside, so I’m assuming that version of rap is still being produced (unless he’s as old as I am, in which case it may be nostalgia. It just used to be rap back in the day.)

At any rate, it appears you can’t discuss rap without it veering into a cultural 3rd rail. Like someone above suggested, not liking it is merely responding to it at face value. There’s no insult in that.

Comment #50: daphne  on  04/01  at  07:11 AM

MOZART’s good. So was Buddy Holly.

Comment #51: daphne  on  04/01  at  07:13 AM

Very obviously anything that has millions of young blacks trying to write (mostly bad) poetry is absolutely pernicious, intolerable in a civilized society, and a symptom of the decline of the West.

Comment #52: rea  on  04/01  at  07:56 AM

You didn’t simply say you didn’t like rap.  You said it wasn’t music.  You are wrong.  It’s music that you don’t like.  If you don’t see the insult in saying that rappers aren’t really musicians, then I really don’t know what to tell you.

This isn’t music?  Not music?!  I picked a couple super-duper mainstream ones for you.  Music reviewers love those guys.

Oh, and that “version” of rap that those damn kids across the street play?  Well, assuming it is new, mainstream stuff, that would be what gets played in clubs around the world.  Clubs where people go to dance.  If you can dance to it, it’s music.

Yeah, that would include some people banging sticks together and clapping their hands.  Where do you think music got started?  I don’t believe that music is by definition limited to the aspects of sound that were most studied by white people in the 17th century.

Comment #53: Jrod  on  04/01  at  08:37 AM

So I guess white, non-rapper celebrities never use drugs and never name their kids weird things.  Oh wait, they do that too.  Will someone please give the memo to Shapiro?

Comment #54: bananacat  on  04/01  at  08:55 AM

So don’t get the rap =/= music thing.

Drums are musical instruments.

Comment #55: Dymphna  on  04/01  at  09:17 AM

I hope I’m not too late on this thread, but I would like some recommendations for good rap.  I was also classically trained, and that is what I listen to mostly, but I adore good rhythms (which is why I really love 20-21st century ‘classical’ music - lots of percussion).  I had a vague idea that rap was very violent and misogynistic, which is why I wanted to have nothing to do with it, but I have come to realize this is wrong - it’s the commercial stuff that is mostly that way.  So - send some names this way, if it’s not too late for this this thread.  thanks!

Comment #56: mingo  on  04/01  at  09:32 AM

daphne’s parents were probably frightened into hating Rock ‘N Roll by Elvis Presley’s seductively swiveling hips.

Every new form of music since Bach has been decried as not being real art and a danger to society, the established order, and public morality.  Things that are different are threatening to those invested in the status quo.

Personally, you can take my Rage Against the Machine when you pry the mp3’s from my cold, dead, fingers…

Comment #57: MikeEss  on  04/01  at  09:38 AM

The problem I have with that materialism and misogyny of rap music is that in most cases, the people discussing it are completely unaware of the reality that a lot of it is just a version of their own materialism and misogyny.

In a society where the ends justify the means, the ends..money and power..are the same no matter how you get there.

Comment #58: Karmakin  on  04/01  at  09:40 AM

Every new form of music since Bach has been decried as not being real art and a danger to society, the established order, and public morality.

Actually, make that every new form of music, full stop - Mozart (not to mention many others) got exactly this sort of crap too. Bach, on the other hand, was considered old-fashioned.

Comment #59: Dunc  on  04/01  at  09:48 AM

“Rap is crap”-type articles are the very model of “phoning it in.” I’d let is slide from a conservative columnist who needs to churn out 3 columns a week, but no one forced Ben Shapiro to submit this.

The fact that conservative writers don’t regularly submit columns complaining about the pernicious nature of techno and dance music indicates to me that there’s a specific reason that they single out rap for special attention when it comes to their beliefs about unacceptable art forms.

Comment #60: Tyro  on  04/01  at  09:55 AM

Dunc, I actually meant after Bach but not including him, but the point still remains…

Comment #61: MikeEss  on  04/01  at  10:00 AM

Rap is poetry, to me.

And like sports, talk, and morning shows, books on tape, and most NPR, I don’t want to listen to it on the radio.

Not my cup of tea.

I also don’t like slasher horror.  Or most tv procedurals b/c they usually revolve around women being abused/murdered.

I’m caught between wanting to like “House” b/c the actor is amazing and hating “House” b/c his character is so unethical.

I think I’ve heard enough “classic rock” to last my lifetime.  With the exception of the Beatles, though to be honest, as crazy a Beatlemaniac as I was in my youth (and they broke up when I was 3) I haven’t played a Beatles CD in about a decade.

Enough navel-gazing?

Why the fuck can’t Wingnut Welfare Recipients understand that no one really cares whether or not they are fanboys of any particular art form.   More than that, what will it take to pierce their bubbles of privilege to realize that art has value even though it cannot possibly appeal to everyone.

Comment #62: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/01  at  10:08 AM

Not recommend The Number of the Beast??!1? Why, it’s a classic! Double pregnancy on the first try, group sex with one’s cloned sister/brothers, an interdimensional search for an obstetrician… a classic, I tell you!

Comment #63: felagund  on  04/01  at  10:28 AM

I don’t like rap, but I don’t consider myself an authority on music because, well, I sing filk written by Mercedes Lackey on car rides, and…um…yeah. So it’s a personal preference and I wouldn’t write an article about it nor would I claim that my own preferences are the Platonic ideal.

I also like Olive Garden. Although lately it’s been all Zio’s. Nom nom nom.

To give some reason for this rambling post, I feel the need to point out to Shapiro that “Uriah” is a name in the fucking Bible. Do you think “David” is a funny name? No? Well, that’s just because you’re an idiot. (Am now anxious awaiting Shapiro’s next post: “What Kind of Weird African Tribal Name is ‘Bathsheba’”?)

Comment #64: Essie Elephant  on  04/01  at  10:35 AM

So - send some names this way, if it’s not too late for this this thread.  thanks!

The best stuff I know personally is from the late 1980s/early 1990s which is when I listened to rap the most. Examples:

Nearly anything by “Boogie Down Productions” in that era. My personal fave is “Ghetto Music: The Blueprint of Hip-Hop”

Nearly anything by Public Enemy ever. Especially “It Takes A Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back”, “New Whirl Odor”, & “How You Sell Soul to a Soulless People Who Sold Their Soul?”

Other good:

Tribe Called Quest

De La Soul

Arrested Development

———-

In my experience you’ll never completely espcape violence and/or bizzarre-ass attitudes toward women in rap but some of them are good enough that you can forgive it.

Comment #65: atheist  on  04/01  at  10:47 AM

In my experience you’ll never completely espcape violence and/or bizzarre-ass attitudes toward women in rap but some of them are good enough that you can forgive it.

I just don’t understand this at all.

Comment #66: Essie Elephant  on  04/01  at  10:54 AM

thanks for the recs, atheist.  I’ll check them out, as well as some of the others mentioned upthread.  However, I am with Essie on the misogynist attitudes - I can’t take hearing that.

Comment #67: mingo  on  04/01  at  11:06 AM

I’ll caveat, though, that I’ve experienced DV, and maybe I just can’t handle violent-towards-women lyrics because it’s triggering. I realize that YMMV, etc. And I’m not saying you can’t be feminist and listen to XYZ music, or anything blanket like that. Just that I, personally, can’t deal with those kinds of lyrics.

This disclaimer has been brought to you by the letter L and the number 7.

Comment #68: Essie Elephant  on  04/01  at  11:15 AM

Essie:

I mean that in my experience, on a given rap album, there would almost always be some track or other where the rapper would either talk about using violence and make me wonder if I really should listen to the rapper. Or, there would be a track where the rapper expressed some views toward women that I found to be crappy and/or bizzarre, and would also make me go, should I really listen to this?

And what I usually found was that, if the rapper was good enough in other ways, I would just bypass that track and listen to the rest of the album. So that is what I meant by “forgive” the violence or misogyny. It would be more accurate to say that I’d just ignore it/bypass it.

So I’m relating, that has generally (not always) been my experience with listening to rap music.

Comment #69: atheist  on  04/01  at  11:22 AM

Just that I, personally, can’t deal with those kinds of lyrics.

Essie, that totally makes sense. I should not have phrased it that way.

Comment #70: atheist  on  04/01  at  11:27 AM

This kind of L7?

Comment #71: atheist  on  04/01  at  11:32 AM

Atheist, okay, I get what you’re saying now. I can see listening to tracks 1-11 inclusive, but bypassing track 12 because it has abhorrent lyrics.

And I understand the angst of “do I use my money to support this talented person despite the fact that they do or say horrible things that I disagree with” conundrum. It’s almost impossible to NOT face this on a daily basis and you just have to go with your individual gut in each case, so I get that too.

I’m hopeful that, with music, as people start buying fewer “full albums” and start buying more track-by-track purchases online, maybe the violence-towards-women songs will sell less than the good-stuff-with-no-violence songs on the same album and maybe the industry will change to reflect that. It is a business after all.

Comment #72: Essie Elephant  on  04/01  at  11:35 AM

Oh, and (should have refresehed before posting), L and 7 were random. I was in a Sesame Street mood today. smile

Comment #73: Essie Elephant  on  04/01  at  11:36 AM

I’m hopeful that, with music, as people start buying fewer “full albums” and start buying more track-by-track purchases online, maybe the violence-towards-women songs will sell less than the good-stuff-with-no-violence songs on the same album

I’m not that hopeful. Somebody already likened the more commercialized, ‘gangsta’ rap to a minstrel act. Most of it is sold to suburban white kids who live in gated communities and probably never met a black person in their life, and these tracks serve to confirm their (low) opinion of urban blacks. My feelings are that, because of this marketing strategy that has taken place for decades in the record industry, it’s likely that the violent misogynistic songs would sell *more* than the thoughtful songs on the same album.

I mean, I’m not particularly proud of what passes for punk that does get to be best-selling either.

Comment #74: BlackBloc  on  04/01  at  11:45 AM

I’ve had the same experience with anti-gay sentiments, although it’s often not a matter of just skipping a song - “I hate f**s” is not a common theme for an entire song, but does often bubble up in otherwise decent music. 

Big Rube’s monologue at the beginning of “13th Floor/Growing Old” is excellent, but marred by his assertion that we’ve been “blinded to the point where sodomites get all the rights.”  “Beatnuts Forever” is a classic in the genre of “intentionally over-the-top violent anthems” (I know it’s not everybody’s thing but I love that stuff) but JuJu throws in a completely gratuitous anti-gay slur that makes an otherwise great song too offensive to play even in groups where people like violent rap music.

It’s tough - I listen to A Musical Massacre a lot and I can’t say I feel particularly guilty about it, but if a gay friend saw it on a playlist and recognized it I don’t know that I’d have a great excuse.

Comment #75: Ape Man  on  04/01  at  11:51 AM

I think jazz music sucks more than a thousand Hoovers on top of a thousand sloppy sump pumps.  Rap and hip-hop never bothered me once.  There’s melody, there’s rhythm, it’s totally Western-friendly.

Comment #76: FlipYrWhig  on  04/01  at  12:03 PM

Mingo, in addition to other suggestions, try the Coup, as someone posted above. They’re openly feminist and openly Marxist, so not to worry about materialism or sexism there. And they’re good.

Sample from “Wear Clean Drawers” their song for Boots Riley’s daughter.

http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/the_coup/wear_clean_draws-lyrics-600843.html

“If somebody hits you
Hit ‘em back
Then negotiate a peace contract
Life if a challenge and you gotta team up
If you play house pretend that the man clean up
You too busy with the other things you gotta do
If you start something, now
Remember, follow through
Later on you gon’ blossom like a lotus
You’ll get into boys and the boys gon’ notice
It don’t matter who you do it with
Just remember when I tell you baby you the shit”


I couldn’t find the lyrics for my nominee for favorite hiphop ever. “Me and Jesus the Pimp in a ‘79 Granada Last Night,” which doesn’t qualify as non-violent as its about a kid whosr mother was killed by the titular pimp (who’s also his father) growing up and getting revenge, for the killing and for the warped world view he got from him.

http://www.lyricstime.com/coup-me-jesus-the-pimp-in-a-79-granada-last-night-lyrics.html

Comment #77: witless chum  on  04/01  at  12:03 PM

I’m really annoyed by people who say stuff like “Aw that rap is just people talking!  Any fool could do that!” My response to that is always the same: do it.  If it’s so damn easy, let’s hear some.  Nobody’s done it yet

This stopped being a valid critique in the 80’s when commercial culture discovered This Rap Thing All The Kids Are Into These Days and really thought they could just put out a bunch of singles of people speaking random ABAB rhymes backed up by even more random scratchy beat-boxy synthey stuff.  Rap fans knew it sucked and avoided it like the plague. 

Example: The Superbowl Shuffle

Comment #78: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  12:18 PM

Denelian, K-os has a bit of a sci-fi vibe to some of his songs. He’s Canadian, and one of the few rap/hip hop artists I like. Socially conscious, anti-violence, no objectifying women.

Also, Clifford is my Papa’s name. Like all of my family (that I know about) he was a WASP.

Comment #79: JPlum  on  04/01  at  12:30 PM

The problem with modern mainstream hip-hop is that it has essentially turned into a black version of late ‘80s hair metal.

Comment #80: Ben D.  on  04/01  at  12:31 PM

From the Superbowl Shuffle Wiki entry:

Weigand had noticed a dance routine on the Amos & Andy television show called “The Kingfish Shuffle” and thought that a similar performance by the Bears players would make for a great marketing tool.

Dear! GOD!

Comment #81: Auguste  on  04/01  at  12:35 PM

I actually meant after Bach but not including him, but the point still remains…

Are you kidding, Bach caught hell in his day for the usage of minor keys.  The church was all “This music is going to lead to the destruction of morality, and quite possibly dancing!”

I’m not a fan of rap, but that has more to do with the fact that I can’t understand people when they talk anymore.  Most new music doesn’t make it’s way into my collection simply because I can’t sing along anymore.

Comment #82: Godless Heathen  on  04/01  at  12:36 PM

I’ll caveat, though, that I’ve experienced DV, and maybe I just can’t handle violent-towards-women lyrics because it’s triggering. I realize that YMMV, etc.

I guess my general response to this is that I find misogynist lyrics to songs in a variety of genres.  In fact, because I mainly grew up listening to rock and rock-oriented pop, it’s much more common for me to catch a lyric of a song I’ve heard dozens of times already and realize the implications than it is for me to check out a new hip-hop track and discover that it’s triggeringly misogynistic (as someone who has also dealt with relationship violence, sexual assault, etc).  Maybe I’m just listening to the wrong hip-hop, but Ohnoes! Violent Misogyny/Homophobia/Whatever has not really been much of an issue for me in terms of finding new stuff to listen to.  Aside, maybe, from older rap I liked as a teenager which falls under the rubric of “songs I’ve heard dozens of times without really listening to”.

For that matter, think of how much of the Grand Literary Canon is totally misogynistic…  I remember having to write a high school paper on Browning’s “My Last Duchess”.  Ew.  Just Ew.  And this from one of Teh Great Poets…  I guess it’s OK to be a vile misogynist if you’re dead and white and male.

Comment #83: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  12:45 PM

Seems like what Daphne was trying at get above is that a given rap music isn’t, technically speaking, a *song*. Then again, neither is Mozart—those in the know tend to refer to Mozart as a “work” or a “piece.”

A song is something you sing, but music can be music without being sung.

Comment #84: rhiain  on  04/01  at  12:48 PM

Aw, Opop, that’s not fair to Robert Browning.  He’s a classic case of a writer who created loathsome characters and got inside their heads—not just the Duke in “My Last Duchess,” but Porphyria’s lover, the Bishop, Fra Lippo Lippi…—without justifying or validating them for it.  The Duke and _especially_ Porphyria’s lover are vile misogynists, but I have a hard time saying Browning himself was.

Comment #85: FlipYrWhig  on  04/01  at  01:17 PM

My exposure to socially engaged rap music mostly extend to the French-speaking world. DIAM is commercial as hell but has a few nice ones (Jeune Demoiselle is silly but funny, Ma France is a pretty scathing critique of France’s right-wing), Keni Arkana is pretty fucking awesome (La Rage du Peuple, great song), there’s Sans Pression from Montreal that tend towards a more positive outlook than I see from American rappers (even if they’re still talking about ghetto life, it’s a lot clearer where they’re condemning and where they’re condoning, but maybe that’s just because I’m better at interpreting those cues from my native language), and I also like Sniper (from France as well).

Half that list is women rappers, though not surprisingly the women are solo while the men are in groups, so technically I’m not giving a 50/50 gender split.

Comment #86: BlackBloc  on  04/01  at  01:56 PM

(sorry, posted this in the wrong thread earlier…)

The thing that gets me—some genres of music get this regularly, but with nothing like the vehemence or inept singlemindedness that hip-hop receives. At least in those cases you can make a case for it (entire genres like soft rock are all about being cliched and inoffensive—if it’s possible to water down ambient music, soft rock is it; meanwhile, lots of political punk of both right and left persuasions tends to forget that it’s not just punk, it’s also supposed to be *music*)—rap at its best, though, is a mixture of poetry and musical collage, with at least as much artistry going for it as, say, metal shredding or jazz improv.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m not a big rap fan, and most of what’s popular these days is pointlessly offensive and misogynistic, and probably shouldn’t be recorded. But you can easily say the same thing about a lot of country music and rock, and in any case, just because I don’t personally like a style doesn’t make it bad. Even taking Sturgeon’s Law into account, I’m more than happy to give someone like Dr. Dre his due as an artist while not actually liking the stuff he records, because I know he’s a very talented performer and producer. (One can say the same about Mel Gibson as an actor and filmmaker—however disgusting a person he is, he’s very talented at what he does.)

On a final note, have you ever noticed how the writer of the comic strip “Curtis” obviously thinks of rap as The Cancer That Is Killing The Ghetto—going so far as to always put “rap” in scare quotes—but yet somehow still manages to show rap as the plucky underdog genre that still has something to say no matter how often people try to stamp it out? It’s like he can’t stay on-message to save his life…

Comment #87: BrianX  on  04/01  at  02:14 PM

Remember Ragtime, Jazz, Blues, Rock&Roll;, maybe even Disco?  All created by African Americans, and disparaged by society- at first.  Ragtime became popular, Jazz turned into “swing”, Blues became semi-respectable, Rock&Roll;kept its name but was watered down into pop. I’m not sure about Disco.  Some Rap has become mainstream/pop, the style imitated by people who haven’t a clue about content.

This music is the imaginative creation of poor people who are usually ill-trained in music, so they invent new musical ideas.  People who suffer horribly, unjustly, and want to express that, explain and rile against the injustice.  They aren’t just pushing the envelope, they ripped right thru it.

Comment #88: Kwillow  on  04/01  at  02:52 PM

He’s a classic case of a writer who created loathsome characters and got inside their heads—not just the Duke in “My Last Duchess,” but Porphyria’s lover, the Bishop, Fra Lippo Lippi…—without justifying or validating them for it.

I’ve always wondered, to be honest, why it’s always assumed that when a member of an oppressed group makes art that pushes our buttons, it’s because the artist is depraved, but when white male artists do the same thin they’re inevitably assumed to be mirrors accurately reflecting the full spectrum of human emotion.

Comment #89: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  03:01 PM

Kwillow:

Disco was run off the road by a mix of homophobia and racism and mostly survived in Europe to blend in with techno. Although I don’t personally think they sound it, the Pet Shop Boys considered their early work to be disco.

Comment #90: BrianX  on  04/01  at  03:12 PM

Reading conservatives quoting hip-hop lyrics, complete with Funetik Aksent, feels about as natural as a purely clinical description of sex.

I remember, back on Tropes before the big crash, someone had cited “Handlebars” as an example of what hip-hop can accomplish when it finally grows up. It was a perfect example of how white artists end up obscuring their black forebears. (How many people think Elvis wrote “Hound Dog”?) At least it was immediately followed by a half-dozen comments pointing out Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash, and the earlier works of Ice Cube.

As for hip-hop to listen to, apart from the aforementioned “Handlebars”, Jedi Mind Tricks has some of the best production I’ve heard in hip-hop… though I haven’t heard that much. Some of their songs (”Trail of Lies”) are more political, but some of it’s more like “Heavy Metal Kings”, which is one of the most violent songs I’ve ever heard.

Comment #91: grendelkhan  on  04/01  at  03:29 PM

@ Opop:  It’s true that outsider and marginal groups are often deemed to be speaking “in their own voice,” rather than playing around with personas.  I think that goes way back:  women artists and black artists historically have to demonstrate that they “count” by speaking up as themselves, or as representatives of their constituency.  They have to prove that they’re authentic, because it’s, like, a shock that they can speak/write/perform artfully at all.  White male artists rarely have to do that.  The downside to proving authenticity is that the “I” in a work fuses with the “I” creating the work, sometimes forever.

Comment #92: FlipYrWhig  on  04/01  at  03:30 PM

The Opoponax: I’ve always wondered, to be honest, why it’s always assumed that when a member of an oppressed group makes art that pushes our buttons, it’s because the artist is depraved, but when white male artists do the same thin they’re inevitably assumed to be mirrors accurately reflecting the full spectrum of human emotion.

(I know, it’s rhetorical, but I wanted to throw in here.) It’s because being unmarked means you get range. If you don’t come prepackaged with attributes, you get to take them on as the situation requires, like a person.

Comment #93: grendelkhan  on  04/01  at  03:40 PM

In the case of Browning, I think it’s because he was so clearly writing in the dramatic monlogue mode that he gets a pass. It’s a distancing technique, and it allows the writer to go places he or she might not go if the voice is more personal. And I have seen poets of color, men and women, use the technique to similar effect. But the larger point stands—white men do get a pass that others don’t, which is why when I teach poetry, I try to treat all poets equally by assuming that none of them—unless the text says otherwise—are speaking in their own voices.

Comment #94: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  04/01  at  04:56 PM

But Incertus, my point stands - why do we assume that when rappers write something misogynist, it’s because Rappers Are Misogynist, whereas when Browning writes something misogynist, it’s because he was a great poet?  I mean, aside from the dramatic monologue style and the awareness that he’s quite specifically writing in the voice of someone else.  In general, white male artists tend to set people falling over themselves trying to rationalize whatever hateful ideas are expressed by a piece, whereas most white people assume without ever having heard much hip-hop that all hip-hop artists are misogynist individuals, by definition.

Comment #95: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  05:15 PM

Oh, goody. Someone used the Scorched Earth tactic. Later, someone used it again. It’s the little-known cousin of the Straw Man argument, in which the practitioner defends one extreme by evoking the other, eliminating everything else on the continuum.

And by all means quote the experts with the caveat that you’re loath to do so.

The rest is so much, or, should I say, just more noise. You start out with some lamebrain declaring an art form (and actually quite healthy outlet) the scourge of (ethnic) youth, a few denouncing that bullshit claim then daring to add, though I’m not particularly fond of it , and suddenly the latter is as bad as - no, worse than - the former. The hell it is. Well, I knew better than to continue with this forum, where I relate about as well as I do with your typical lockstep conservative, after that comment about “just because someone’s a masochist doesn’t mean she deserved the abuse” and no one else says, “Huh?“Even Amanda’s passionate manifestos…well, let’s just say I hope at some point she begins to question whether life is quite as complex as she thought. As for my rant, it’s the last one. I just needed to get this aggravation out of my system. I really have no business being here.

This meta post has been brought to you by Yes, Age Does Matter, Significantly.

Comment #96: daphne  on  04/01  at  05:27 PM

atheist @ 10:32AM—

ITYM *this* L7

Comment #97: Thlayli  on  04/01  at  05:32 PM

OK, the page choked on the parentheses in the link—it’s “L7_(band)”

Comment #98: Thlayli  on  04/01  at  05:34 PM

few denouncing that bullshit claim then daring to add, though I’m not particularly fond of it , and suddenly the latter is as bad as - no, worse than - the former.

I don’t want to misread you, but you seem to have said upthread that rap isn’t music, is “just talking”, and requires no skill.  All of which are very, very different from saying you just don’t happen to enjoy rap that much. 

There is definitely at least one genre of music I simply do not enjoy, at all. (jam bands, if you’re curious.)  But I’d never go so far as to say that jam bands don’t play real music, it’s just noise, requires no skill, or that jam band musicians are a bunch of untalented hacks.  It’s just a genre of music I happen not to enjoy.  And that’s OK.

Comment #99: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  05:54 PM

why do we assume that when rappers write something misogynist, it’s because Rappers Are Misogynist, whereas when Browning writes something misogynist, it’s because he was a great poet?

@ Opop:  Did you see my response?  I think it’s because one of the things that has been used to “authorize” rap lyrics is that they describe Things That Really Happened.  That’s how it works in _Hustle and Flow_, for example:  the rapper takes his life and describes it in lyrical form, and its “authenticity” makes it good.  That’s why the “I” in a thug-life tale seems so readily to be the “I” on the cover of the disc.  White male artists/writers/poets haven’t had to worry about being authorized to speak _as themselves_ since, I dunno, Petrarch?

Comment #100: FlipYrWhig  on  04/01  at  06:17 PM

Wow Daphne.  You say something equally stupid as the article Jesse fisked and you think it’s because we’re some hivemind?

Don’t let the blog door hit your ass on the way out.

Comment #101: history_mom  on  04/01  at  06:29 PM

You know, I’ve often noticed that people almost never consider the question of whether a rapper means for himself to be personally identified with sentiments expressed in a rap, even when the song clearly depicts a fictional character (I would guess that Ghostface Killah, for example, never actually participated in a grisly armed roberry/murder as described in “Shakey Dog”).

I’ve never considered whether this is specific to “oppressed groups” or a more general problem people have with allowing for shifting perspectives.  I’m not sure the comparison holds up from page to audio track, however - I think black writers can write about characters that aren’t the author and people don’t assume it’s them.  It may be more about the medium than the identity of the artist. 

I dunno.  I’ll have to give it some thought.

Comment #102: Ape Man  on  04/01  at  06:30 PM

Oh, and don’t forget: Theatre of the Painfully Obvious

Comment #103: daphne  on  04/01  at  06:36 PM

FlipYrWhig - I fully agree.  I just still think the question of why this one particular hip-hop trope means that All Rappers Are Their Lyrics, Period, is an apt one.  Especially when you get a little more abstract and decide that All Rappers Are Misogynists, All Rappers Are Homophobic, All Rappers Personally Advocate Violent Crime, etc.

Comment #104: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  06:42 PM

I’ve never considered whether this is specific to “oppressed groups” or a more general problem people have with allowing for shifting perspectives.

I mainly framed it this way because, as I said above, we generally bend over backwards to absolve the creators of canonical work from any moral implications.  And the creators of canonical works are, almost by definition, white guys.

Comment #105: The Opoponax  on  04/01  at  06:46 PM

Definitely—just because something has a history doesn’t mean that that history makes any particular sense!

Comment #106: FlipYrWhig  on  04/01  at  07:16 PM

Opo, I think it’s the same phenomenon that leads to a black kid who robs a liquor store being endemic of the rot in the black community, while a white kid doing the same simply means that kid is a crook.  It’s bullshit.

The situation is not helped by the fact that many popular rappers are, in fact, formerly violent thug gangstas.  The Crips are not known for their feminist sensibilities.  Even considering that, however, a lot of it is simply indefensible.  I used to love the 90’s era Snoop and Dre stuff, but the rampant misogyny makes that impossible for me now.  It’s certainly not fair to say that rap as a whole is hateful trash, but a larger than usual portion of the mainstream stuff does fit that description.

This becomes less of an issue the further underground you go, but it’s still there.  Immortal Technique, who writes intelligent and thoughtful lyrics all day long and has incredible freestyle skills, uses words like faggot and pussy as slurs regularly, but he doesn’t go beyond macho posturing with it.  As in, he may not have issues with actual gay people, but he thinks your crew has more faggots than Greek mythology.  I don’t like that aspect of his work, but it’s minor enough compared to his real message that I can let it slide.  YMMV, of course.

When it comes to all forms of art, sometimes we have to make that call.  Do you like Ezra Pound despite his antisemitism?  Do you enjoy Thom Jefferson’s or Ben Franklin’s writings despite their white-supremacy and (in Jeff’s case) slave ownership?  Do you like the Beatles despite this?  Everyone has to draw that line somewhere.

Comment #107: Jrod  on  04/01  at  07:51 PM

Well, Opop, I was gonna barge in defending my ‘85 Bears, but DAMN, Auguste.  That’s just…damning.

I don’t know how to get that fact out of my head.

and as bad as the Superbowl Shuffle is, it was a bajillion times better than the Oakland Raider’s “Silver and Black Attack” knock off.  Not to mention the horrendous Ditka solo, “the Grabowski Shuffle”.


Now I feel dirty.

Comment #108: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/01  at  08:00 PM

I forgot to address the issue of rappers being assumed to be honest with their lyrics.  This doesn’t only happen to black rappers, btw.  Eminem caught a lot of flack from people who may have thought he literally wanted to murder his wife and dump her off a pier while their child watched.  It really doesn’t help when rapping about being a violent women-hating sociopath is called “keeping it real.”

The question then becomes: is this the case because producers select rappers with those qualities in the belief that they sell better (call this the Minstrel Theory) or is it simply that, among the pool of skilled rappers, there’s a preponderance of violent criminals?  Chicken or egg.

Fun fact:  Ice-T, who once got a lot of press for writing a song called “Cop Killer,” now plays a policeman on TV.  I lean towards the Minstrel Theory, with the caveat that the idealization of thug life will lead up-and-coming MCs to incorporate those violent elements used so effectively by their rap idols.  The Boondocks has made a lot of hay out of the way this happens with the character Ganstalicious.

Comment #109: Jrod  on  04/01  at  08:07 PM

Nobody remembers that the 85 Bears were one of the greatest football teams ever fielded.  They just remember their horrible song.  Is that not punishment enough!  Karma is merciless.

Comment #110: Jrod  on  04/01  at  08:12 PM

We shouldn’t lump together all “violent” rap and then ask “Why is rap violent?” 

The issue of violence in hip-hop culture is layered and complex. 

I, a white person from the suburbs, write and perform rap songs that include elements that either are explicitly violent or could be easily construed as advocating violence. 

Do I do this because

1)  Rap music is a violent medium and I like to write rap music, so I figure I ought to put in some violence?
2)  Violence and death are metaphors for perils and transformations of another kinds?
3)  I am an aggressive person whose aggression doesn’t find a lot of outlets in my everyday life as a stay-at-home dad, and rapping about violence and aggression gives me an outlet?
4)  Violence is exhilarating to rap about?
5)  My idols and influences also wrote rhymes about violence?
6)  of other reasons that I haven’t even considered?

I probably have my answers.  The people who hear the music have their answers.  But there’s not really an ANSWER.  It’s not that simple.

Comment #111: Ape Man  on  04/01  at  08:19 PM

While there is much I disagree with in Shapiro’s “Rap is Crap” post, I do agree somewhat with the following:

“Second, rap culture is disgusting and degrading.  Not every song, of course - the culture as a whole.  It values the basest elements of human nature, from promiscuous sex to maltreatment of women to sickening violence.”

“Third, rap culture creates racial stereotypes and revels in them.”

Comment #112: futureshock  on  04/01  at  10:20 PM

Well, daphne is gone, but futureshock is still here.

I’ll be blunt this time. If you judge rap as misogynist and not rock, you are a bigot. You favor white people over blacks. Such assholery is intolerable.

Seriously, do we really have to do a google search of lyrics to back this point up? Rock and roll hasliterally decades on rap when it comes to rape, murder, misogyny, and general lewdness. Hell, rock was first complained about by white people because of its obvious black influences: when rock ‘n rollers made it clear they loved them the sex, and the record labels made it clear that rock was mostly a white thing (despite the clear artistic heritage), sex et. al. came to be the biggest complaint.

These people are tiresome. I really wish they’d stop calling themselves liberals. Just join the goddamn rightwingers and be done with it.

It shouldn’t be too ironic to point out that I have to pick and choose throughout each musical genre because I can’t stand the misogyny in many songs. I have the bad habit of actually listening to lyrics and it’s ruined many good tunes for me. :-( The trick is, I’ve heard nasty shit in country songs (punishment for giving them a chance) and rap, both.

And, oh—let’s not forget that gangsta rap popularity is driven by white people. It was selected as marketable by white executives who market it to white kids. Why the FUCK do you think Snoop Dog is ubiquitous and Digable Planets is ancient history? The market didn’t make that selection, the marketeers did.

So, if you’re white, and you think rap is more nasty than rock, not only are you wrong, but you’re basically blaming an entire race for a phenomenon generated by particularly privileged members of your own race. Thus, I’ll paraphrase and reiterate my previous sentiment: fuck off.

Comment #113: No One of Consequence  on  04/02  at  12:18 AM

Standing in the doorway now, waiting, waiting, for the door to begin closing, to hit me. Then I realize there is no door.

Oh, the 2nd paragraph was as serious as the first one was wrong?

Comment #114: daphne  on  04/02  at  12:30 AM

Oh, the 2nd paragraph was as serious as the first one was wrong?

So… you mean

I’ll be blunt this time. If you judge rap as misogynist and not rock, you are a bigot. You favor white people over blacks. Such assholery is intolerable.

you agree with this statement completely. Thank You.

Daphne first you said “rap is crap”. To whit, let me quote the DJ Krush song I linked to above:
“And when the apple dropped that day,
We stood and watched them blow away,
A people full of yesterday.”
I defy you to find a more beautifully moving description of America dropping nuclear bombs on Japan. Rap, as you say, is not all crap.

Second you said it wasn’t music, because it doesn’t fall into your ridiculously narrow definition of music. Turntablism is an integral part of hip-hop (aka, rap). Possessing at least three different styles of musical notation, it is indeed Music.

As to your asinine assertion that old rap is apparently neither music or of quality, may I present Afrika Bambaataa, circa 1984.

I believe you have, as is the common parlance among the youth, been served. You know nothing of rap, and have already subjected us to your god awful rhymes, so please kindly amend your statements, or sit down and shut the fuck up when people smarter than you are speaking.

Comment #115: banisteriopsis  on  04/02  at  02:32 AM

Children, children, children What will you do when we are gone   Garrison Keillor, as in the common parlance of Garrison Keillor.

You talkin’ to me, kiddo? ‘Cause you fail to address anything I’ve ever said. Bet you wish you could punch through the screen, huh, though that would hardly be terribly, uh, liberal of you. Moving description of America? Lyrics as definitive of anything…? I defy you to link that to…oh Jesus Fucking Christ, never mind.

To think I actually agreed with the turntablism defense, regardless of its irrelevance to…Hip hop, if it did stink, would still be protected as a cultural…and who was the expert you consulted? Do you ever consult yourself? Write your own verse? Turn the tables on anyone? It would alleviate quite a bit of that anger.  Called flipping the other guy. I recommend it…children, children, children.

Comment #116: daphne  on  04/02  at  02:50 AM

Yeah yeah yeah. Not so much fun when they’re too easy. She was right. When Solon turned Beck’s verbatim quotes into poetry, it was hysterical. Also quite easy, it was the concept itself which was brilliant. This, not nearly as artistic, creative. Still pretty fun, though. You just gotta learn how to flip ‘em.

Comment #117: daphne  on  04/02  at  02:55 AM

My god, you’re incoherent.  Stop embarrassing yourself already, daphne.

Comment #118: Jrod  on  04/02  at  03:33 AM

And there you have it. The best evidence of a crushed position on the internet is the persistent refusal of its holder to adress the pertinent facts that did all the crushing. You won’t hear daphne or any other bigot comment on rock. That musical genre is officially white. And that is a genre of music—it isn’t “non-music,” or whatever the fuck her kind declares music they don’t care for. Note that stodgy whites worked very hard to tell people that rock wasn’t music back inna day, and they resorted to the same sophistry that daphne does here—though one hopes they used actual complete sentences (there is no call to combine an affront against morality with an affront against the English language, as we have seen here). Bigotry does not tolerate comparisons. It must make judgements in a fact-free, cherry-picked anecdote universe.

So the bigots here will not explain why rock is actually music. Or why metal is music (do note that a motif of metal and punk—and now mainstream (read: sold-out*) rock is the contrast between atonal grunted or shouted lyrics and “clean” lyrics).

The bullshit definition of music here means that half of Faith No More’s “Epic” is NOT music—the parts of the song outside of the chorus—while the chorus IS music. So what the hell is it? And songs are, by definition, music, so what parts of the song aren’t songs?

Sticking with the very white (and funk influenced) band Faith No More, their tune A Small Victory is mostly sung, but some parts (“A sore. . . loser”/“I might. . . beat you”) are not. Ergo, not music. Alert Billboard.

Racist bullshit does not just offend morals and ethics, it takes a damp shit on logic, too. This is why white supremacists have to write such long and twisted screeds about how the minority they’re really interesting in raping and stealing from is part of some massive social plague. It’s a natural consequence of actually trying to rationalize their bullshit. Without a wall of words, the lies are too obvious.

Some white people work very hard to give European Americans a bad name. Why even some of those people drift to Pandagon I’ll never know.

Hm. I’m gonna go listen to Faith No More now. Some good came of this discussion.

*I’m only kidding slightly here. . .

Comment #119: No One of Consequence  on  04/02  at  03:48 AM

No One of Consequence, regarding the question of what is and is not music, here is my personal definition.

‘Noise’ is when an energy source creates sonic compression waves in the atmosphere which a listener can percieve, using their eardrums, as a ‘sound’. ‘Music’ is when the listener percieves this ‘noise’ and derives a sense of aesthetic enjoyment from it.

No, don’t thank me for that awesome definition of music. I got it from this guy.

Comment #120: atheist  on  04/02  at  09:11 AM

Sticking with the very white (and funk influenced) band Faith No More, their tune A Small Victory is mostly sung, but some parts (“A sore. . . loser”/“I might. . . beat you”) are not. Ergo, not music. Alert Billboard.

How about this one? In particular the part starting at 1:07 and ending around 1:44.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIpg5QKlYdY

I guess it’s music up to 1:07 and starts being music again at 1:44.

Comment #121: BlackBloc  on  04/02  at  09:19 AM

JRod - re your post at 6:51 last night:

I guess for me, I see most of that stuff in more white-dominated cultural products, so I have a hard time deciding that when a white artist lacks feminist sensibilities, that’s OK because what can you expect from our wider Dood-dominated culture, but when a black artist lacks feminist sensibilities, All Black Artists Are A Bunch Of Hateful Thugs. 

And, yeah, there is the “fact” (not sure how meaningful a fact, but a fact, sure) that a lot of rappers have a history of criminal activity, gang involvement, and the like, whereas most white artists grew up in the suburbs and got hothouse educations preparing them for their future creative careers.  But I see that a lot more as an artifact of race and class in this country rather than some kind of proof that Therefore Art Made By Black People Is Innately Corrupting.

Comment #122: The Opoponax  on  04/02  at  10:21 AM

This is not music.

Comment #123: atheist  on  04/02  at  10:51 AM

atheist—that union dispute thing was just surreal. And as for the sound, it would be excellent background music to several surrealist video games.

That leads to an interesting question. I, for example, really like melody, so anything without a clear melody gets held to a higher standard for me (hence the irony I mentioned above). But rhythym-only and atonal pieces have pleased me greatly when played during certain movies and certain games.

So: my appreciation of these pieces as music depends upon the context in which I hear them. Huh.

Actually, BlackBloc’s punk link is a good example. I tend to be picky about punk—again, melody—but if the lyrics are political my appreciation goes up.

You know, in a way, I think I’ve just shown that the bigots on this issue are actually using a consistent definition of music—they’re just lying about it. Like whites who couldn’t tolerate a Chubby Checker song until some white dude covered it, they can’t appreciate a musical style until One of Theirs performs it. Since that is an illegitimate and disgusting basis for their asthetic, they obfuscate and claim it’s not music at all. . . and conveniently forget examples of white people rapping.

Therefore, the hugely funk-inspired and utterly mainstream (now) Red Hot Chilli Peppers are music, no matter how little Kiedis sings in a given song. Or maybe it ceases to be music when he praises a black political music act (“Power of Equality”).

Bigotry is usually really simple at bottom, so I think I have the right of it here.

Comment #124: No One of Consequence  on  04/02  at  01:16 PM

Is rock music really as full of disgusting lyrics as rap?  If it is, I stand corrected.

Comment #125: futureshock  on  04/02  at  04:29 PM

Looks like some music causes suicide.  This is from the Huffington Post:

“I have always been slightly bemused by homophobia. Why would two adults (or ten) having consensual sex upset you? What’s it to you? A new expose of one of the West’s most rancidly anti-gay subcultures—hip-hop—offers the beginnings of an answer. Hip hop has long been the ultimate in fag-bashing, gay-trashing hate music. Listen to any album and a list of homophobic howls will hit you: Eminem squeaking “Hate fags? The answer’s yes!”, or Masse saying “I be wastin’ em. That’s what you faggots get!” The music’s mood was summarised in a 1992 Ice Cube hit: “True niggaz ain’t gay.”

This boom-boom-boom of homo-cidal hate has a crushing effect on gay kids. It sends out the message: you are so repulsive you should be killed. It’s one of several reasons why gay teenagers are still—after all the amazing progress we have made—six times more likely to commit suicide than their straight siblings.”

source

Comment #126: futureshock  on  04/02  at  04:39 PM

sorry, here is a better link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/homophobic-then-youre-pro_b_158516.html

Comment #127: futureshock  on  04/02  at  04:41 PM

It’s a damn shame that hip-hop keeps driving all those kids to suicide.  It must be terrible to go through life, hearing nothing but gay-positive messages from our culture, then to discover Eminem and suddenly realize that some folks (mostly black of course) don’t much like gays.  It must be a true revelation, seeing as you’d never hear the word faggot at school from other kids.  Well, unless the other kids were rappers, I suppose.

This is progress, though.  When I was a kid, heavy metal was causing all sorts of kids to kill themselves in droves, not just the gay kids.  Hey, maybe we should just abolish all music except 16th century chamber music to be safe!

Comment #128: Jrod  on  04/02  at  06:48 PM

“(and why do I get the feeling that an incredibly successful private white citizen who owned firearms and had been convicted of a nonviolent crime a decade ago wouldn’t get the same treatment?)”

You’be very, very wrong. People of all colors go to jail for NFA violations.

Comment #129: CTD  on  04/02  at  07:39 PM

Must admit to being impressed anyone gave enough of a shit what I think to bother to try to persuade me. Guess that was a limited offer. I’m an old white lady with a son who loves rap dating an African-American dancer with an adorable daughter. I hope he marries this lovely woman. So that’s one thing, which speaks for itself.

When I was 19 my parents took me to the coolest New Year’s Day party at the home of friends in what’s called near-north Chicago, where their TV screen oozed strobe lights to the beat of the background music. Very state of the art it was. A bunch of us age cohorts were gathered in their basement den when a 50-something-year-old guy popped his head in, smiling, nodding, radiating cheer and magnanimity, said something like, “Having fun, kids?” and disappeared. It barely registered on the collective scale. In the car going home my father said, “Did you see him? That was Studs Terkel, he lives in this neighborhood.” Okay, I said, blankly, whereupon my father explained who he was.

Then - the other thing - today I woke to the sound of a very loud, throbbing drum beat superimposed with unintelligible yelling and shouting, ah, rap as I know it. Between distance and distortion I couldn’t make out the words, but to tell you the truth they wouldn’t have made nor broke the quality of it to me. Great lyrics or - what did somebody say? - dumbass? ones, it wouldn’t have mattered. Which doesn’t, and shouldn’t, matter to its fans. Whether it’s emanating from the next car at a stop light or across the street, I never ask the “peace offender” to turn it down much less off. It’ll recede down the street or the guy across the street will get in his car and drive off.

No, the rap I continue to be exposed to is not bona fide music (though it is some kind of literature) in that if it’s all you expose yourself to you are self-deprived. But for what it is, it can substitute on occasion, interspersed with the real thing. Matter of fact, a friend and I used to request Gettin’ Jiggy at an oldies bar, though it wasn’t that old at the time. With its great female background chorus, it was some terrific music.

My sister was right. No fun when they’re too easy.

Comment #130: daphne  on  04/02  at  07:58 PM

PS. I love that phrase “you’re embarrassing yourself.” Limbaugh used to say that to any liberal who managed to talk long enough to make a point. A valid point. Now, who was embarrassing whom?

Comment #131: daphne  on  04/02  at  08:29 PM

Now, who was embarrassing whom?

You’ve been embarrassing yourself non-stop.  Seriously. 

Actually, we’re all a little embarrassed for you.  Just admit you were wrong and go do something else.

Comment #132: JupiterPluvius  on  04/02  at  10:33 PM

Did you really just pull the “I have a black friend” card as a defense of your idiocy?  Seriously, the funniest thing I’ve read all night.

Please do, regale us with more of your “wisdom”.

Comment #133: history_mom  on  04/03  at  02:17 AM

I think Daphne’s point is that she is not a racist. 

Personally, I don’t care what color the rappers are.  It’s the lyrics in many of the songs that I have a problem with.  I don’t like disgusting, women-hating lyrics in any genre of music.  It just sounds to me like there is a lot more of it in rap.

Comment #134: futureshock  on  04/03  at  03:36 AM

I think Daphne’s point is that rap should be judged on its own merits, not tiptoed around delicately because of its associations with historically repressed minorities, so that mentioning the “friends” makes that distinction. Also that she doesn’t give a flying fuck about the lyrics, in fact, can’t get through the ear-crushing (and she doesn’t mean volume) offenses to the words themselves. I think Daphne continues to hear the same rap she wrote her ‘91 anti-rap rap about, and that no one can proclaim someone else “embarrassed” by virtue of the definition of embarrassment. Especially not on behalf of an entire blog community. I think she made her case, clearly and convincingly, to people who will not be convinced (their identities depend on it) and attempt to muddle the clarity. I think she thinks the only sentence fragment with the slightest ring of truth in these last, dwindling posts is “go do something else.” Yes. This thread has done her a favor, reminding her that you can spend only so long at the children’s table, regardless of loving children, before you restore your sanity with the adults.

Some posts ago someone mentioned being born in ‘85. That should have been the signal. 1985 was last week to Daphne.

Comment #135: daphne  on  04/03  at  07:48 PM

Daphne, why do you assume that everyone posting on this blog is born in 1985?  The ages of regulars on this blog vary greatly, with probably the majority in their thirties but quite a few your age (several of them have already posted in this thread). And yet, we don’t go on curmudgeonly rants about rap not being music (when it clearly is, it’s just music you don’t appreciate), post excruciatingly trite and dull lyrics to our own anti-rap song, then produce the “but I have a black friend, therefore I am not racist,” and finally fall back on “well…I’m older than you, so I’m right!” as our last defense.  Age has literally nothing to do with the argument you presented.  As Ben Shapiro proves, you can find plenty of ignorant Gen Yers who will spout the same “rap is not music” nonsense.  You made a dumb argument and are only compounding the stupidity with each post.

Comment #136: history_mom  on  04/03  at  08:19 PM

Ah, John Cage. practically the inventor of avant garde, on Garry Moore. When was that recorded, brought to you by a cigarette company. 10 years later cigarette ads were banned from TV, let alone from sponsoring programs.I guess that’s supposed to be an example of if-rap’s-not-music-than-neither-is-this, although of course Cage was playing music, with the sounds so spread out among the silence the audio without the visual would have worn out my patience. And of course the visual was critical to the total experience, a display including music more than music per se.

There was a Cage exposition on the UofI Urbana campus in the early 70s. I guess you could say I was not his most avid fan.

Comment #137: daphne  on  04/03  at  09:02 PM

And, finally - no really, before my exasperation chokes me and only because it seems warranted - the confusion about age. While I’m as wary of cliches as some commenter above was of quoting experts - then did so anyway - this one addresses it directly: The older I got, the smarter became my parents. In other words, while I remember being your age, you’ve never been mine. Amanda writes prolifically, often redundantly, of matters I resolved, at least to my satisfaction, years ago. That’s fine; she’s a brilliant, original, young woman who, I predict, will eventually wonder why it - and by “it” I mean sexual politics in particular among other things - once seemed so complicated. So may many readers here. Like anyone, I relate most to my perceived peers, am more stimulated mentally, and though by staying I could try to cut through some of the debris, to short-cut the learning process for likeminded liberals, I somehow get the impression my “insights” - about a lot more things than rap, obviously - aren’t especially valued around here. Anyway, if you consider the journey equal to the destination, I wouldn’t be doing anyone any favors.

And finally, finally, yes, I know it’s a huge generalization, about consensus opinions, about the prevailing age group. It’s also been my overwhelming experience to have run into just those things.

Comment #138: daphne  on  04/03  at  10:55 PM

The totality of daphne’s argument.

Comment #139: banisteriopsis  on  04/04  at  06:16 PM

Yeah, you got it. This place was just a distraction - though often a pleasant one - from the actual issues in my life. I was taking a vacation from the real problems. But it wasn’t all a waste of time. Creative writing fortified my brain - not much, mind you (see: too easy) - but just enough to return to the tough stuff, where concentration will be required. In other words, no more effortless argumentation.

Comment #140: daphne  on  04/04  at  07:51 PM

Performance art? No, pure expository.

Comment #141: daphne  on  04/04  at  07:55 PM

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/19334.html#more-19334

Here’s a fine example of what I earlier called “flipping.” See how Gavin has a field day with the word “ilk.” It’s a very effective rhetorical tool.

Comment #142: daphne  on  04/04  at  09:39 PM

At some point - probably as the thread falls to page 3 - these comments will be closed.


pffft

Comment #143: daphne  on  04/05  at  07:59 PM

last words of wisdom “Age has nothing to do with the argument” will always and only be offered by the young.

Comment #144: daphne  on  04/05  at  08:01 PM

Come and get it, while comments are still allowed on this thread.

Comment #145: daphne  on  04/07  at  03:16 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.