This is when there’s a positive attempt to define the community; when “black people” as a whole can have anything negative assigned to them, there is a community.

This kind of thing takes on a weird life when conservatives try to rationalize whatever their current opinion of whether Obama is black or not is; generally they’re simultaneously treating him as a member of the black community and therefore suspect at best, while also disqualifying him from same since he’s half-white and therefore his success doesn’t actually prove anything about the black community as a whole, thank you very much.

I choose you, Negrochu!

Damn you, that hot coffee coming out my nose hurts! My black friend would have timed his witticisms so as not to cause me to scald my sinuses.

My local Greek festival is coming up, which will include booths featuring Greek-owned businesses, and a program replete with ads for Greek lawyers and realtors and insurance agents, along with ads for Greek restaurants and specialty store. This ethnocentricity is pretty normal, in my experience.

But I don’t see how “selling clothes from the back of the car” is a viable business model. Guys in vans have sped up to me in parking lots, offering to sell me designer suits at rock bottom prices, but I’ve always been leery of them.

How about, “it’s only racism if you take an active interest in what the skin pigment of the people you’re engaging in business transactions with is, rather than judging strictly on merit?”

So I know I should click through and read the quote in context, but I don’t understand what she’s doing with this example of the fashion designer friend. My black friend worked hard to start a business, so ... other black people shouldn’t patronize her business? What? I don’t get it. (The “Oh, please” was a nice touch, too.)

More accurately, there’s the not-racist argument that the idea of a “black community” is illegitimate.  You see, any attempt to define the black experience in America must come with the realization that the experience is fundamentally defined by external racism; it must therefore be denied at all costs.  This is when there’s a positive attempt to define the community; when “black people” as a whole can have anything negative assigned to them, there is a community.  And that community is making a clear and undeniable statement that it’s decided to fuck itself up because it’s a bunch of stupid dumbheads.

This is a good point. I think I’ve noticed this phenomenon without ever really articulating it.

How about, “it’s only racism if you take an active interest in what the skin pigment of the people you’re engaging in business transactions with is, rather than judging strictly on merit?”

How about it in what sense? Like, ‘How about, “it’s only racism if you take an active interest in what the skin pigment of the people you’re engaging in business transactions with is, rather than judging strictly on merit?” as a competitor for the “blindness to privilege” competition?’

How about, “it’s only racism if you take an active interest in what the skin pigment of the people you’re engaging in business transactions with is, rather than judging strictly on merit?”

Sorry, but when you face rather well-documented economic hardships based on your race, you can either address the problem as it exists or address it like a fucking moron to get around a shitty debate point. 

You’re right - we should do it the second way.  And every time it doesn’t work, we should just keep blaming ourselves.

But I don’t see how “selling clothes from the back of the car” is a viable business model.

“Selling [xyz] out of the back of his/her car” is archetypal story for retail/designer startups in the same way “started out in their garage” is the archetype of the technology startup.

Anyone in sales is inevitably going to start out approaching family, friends, acquaintences, friends of family, friends of friends, etc., etc., etc. “The Friend” in this case was probably depending on the word of mouth of people she knew, many of whom (shocker!) were black. Formalizing these sort of contacts via black-owned business networks and the like is the normal thing to do.

In the same way that if I ever get the company off the ground I’ve been planning to start, the first people I’m going to go to is my own inner circle of former college classmates and co-ethnics that I know.

Ah, the default arises again.  You shouldn’t take anything like gender or ethnicity into account when making a business decision, so therefore your business decision should always default back to doing business with the white guy.  It’s like picking a judge, where the white guy should always get picked because picking someone who’s a woman or a minority (or—horrors!—both) means you picked them because of their gender/skin color, not because of their qualifications.  If you looked only at qualifications, you’d always have to pick the white guy.

If you looked only at qualifications, you’d always have to pick the white guy.

Funny how that works, innit?

Yet another problem with the “Black Friend” who pulls himself by his own bootstraps is that, almost by definitition, it’s a combination of extraordinary drive, talent, and sheer luck (assuming it’s not wholly fictional).  Judged by that standard, most white folks are bums.

Yet, somehow the large number of white executives proves the superiority of wife-beating trailer trash with missing teeth, yet the growing number of black executives and entrepreneurs indicts kids in the ghetto as lazy felons.

Jeez, maybe I should use “yet” a few dozen more times.

rather than judging strictly on merit?

What is “merit,” how do you quantify it, how do you judge based on merit, and how do you eliminate all other non-merit factors when you make a decision?

If merit was all that people used to make decisions, why is not every car you see on the road a Toyota?

If merit was all that people used to make decisions, why is not every car you see on the road a Toyota?

I work with a man who still won’t buy Japanese cars because of the war. Just sayin’.

I work with a man who still won’t buy Japanese cars because of the war. Just sayin’.

My refusal to buy American cars is hereby (retroactively) blamed on the (Iraq) war.

Oh, except I did buy a Saturn once. But it was used, and purchased from a man of Middle Eastern descent. So I stand by my made-up position.

a melanin-infused Pokemon that the not-racist can pull out in during any battle, like Pikachu if all the other Pikachus had higher incarceration and lower employment rates than all the other Pokemon.

Well if Pikachus would just learn to speak our language, there wouldn’t be a problem! Oh wait, I’m thinking of Charmanders.

I remember reading Amy Alkon’s advice columns in my local newspaper when I was a kid, and, having no experience outside of middle school, thinking, “Huh. Is that really how the world works? Weird.” Turns out it’s not how the world works! At all!

What really floors me is that sometimes it isn’t even racism if someone burns a fucking cross on your lawn, and leaves his white robe behind.  Sometimes it’s just “reckless burning”: http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2009/05/15/news/community/3aaa03_cross051509.txt

I should add that he also won’t buy German cars. It’s just that the Japanese cars thing comes up more often because everyone else in the office drives a Japanese car.

Chingona, my mother still tells stories about how her father flipped his shit when she bought her first car—a VW bug, i.e. a “Kraut car.”

I don’t mean to totally derail this conversation, but I remember this gym teacher in high school cornering these German exchange students and saying, “You guys German, huh? You guys got that Folks. Wagon. That car that Hitler made.”

Well, so far we’ve learned that the US is full of anti-Asian racists and anti-European racists, by the allenenium criterion of racism = prioritizing skin pigmentation over merit. So the thread is hardly derailed.

chingona, are you saying that because someone refuses to buy Japanese or German products because of WWII is racist? I’d say is more like a middle finger to Japan or Germany. Anyone who goes through a war is gonna be bitter toward a country, especially if those countries committed some pretty shitty war crimes. My grandpa never bought anything German or Korean. But as far as that kind of mentality goes, I think it ended with the WWII generation.

And I won’t buy American cars, not to protest any policies, but because they’re shit. Buy Euro.

Okay, I just Googled “allenenium” and it appears to be the username of someone with a Xanga. I hope that clears everything up.

Allen is the first person (in this thread) to posit that valuing skin pigmentation over merit is the definition of racism. Hence, Allenenium, although I would have called it Allenian, or maybe Allenesque.

I’ve had this fight before. 
Frankly, I believe in giving my money to people who share my values. When I give it to my enemies, they will use it to harm me and mine.

Somehow, that ended up being construed as racist, anti-heterosexual, anti-Christian and WRONG. (the third is really the only viable point on there)

It all really stems from the idea of The Rugged Individual. Everyone is on their own. Until someone screws up and then you can generalize to the whole population.

It’s also worth pointing out that hardly anyone reacts with this sort of feeling over a far more ruthless section of the population. Evangelical Christians who will only buy from good people if possible and often are ruthless in the home of banning anything not purchased from the “Christian” community or at least approved by the “Christian” community.

This is for the thought impaired like Allen an exclusionary model of purchase habits that is violently enforced and often passively supportive of homophobia, racism, sexism, and multiculturalism. No matter how “clean” or genuinely Christian a work was, if it even mentioned other races, women as people, or homosexuals existing, then that book was even more targeted as a form of the devil.

And yet no one gets into the sort of handwringing campaigns about these white-bread types and yet break into hives over minority communities supporting businesses that cater to them, are run by fellow members. Ironically, the same people also often trumpet the free market, not realizing apparently that buying where you are comfortable and you know your money won’t actively work against you is sort of exactly what the free market is supposed to be about.

And of course, it’s also ridiculous for a huge number of reasons, bypassing white-owned and white-only chamber of commerces, supporting businesses that may see less than their fair share because they are in “bad neighborhoods” or have too “urban” or “queer” of a vibe to ever cater to “normals”, and supporting businesses where they aren’t made to feel uncomfortable or forced to except as dominant the default culture. This would also be more attractive to whites looking for “something cool” if only the word was out to them and campaigns like this also allow the businesses to reach out more broadly and catch the attention of people who wouldn’t have thought to look, you know, like white businesses do all the time with their mass infusions of wealth.

I also find it interesting that their X friend is always highly successful, often a small business owner and the author rarely mentions that they actually purchase anything from said friend unless they are propping up a narrative of how they are successful because they avoid all that “ethnic” wares and provide the exact same experience as every other white business up to and including only staffing white employees.

(There is also a minor exception in general, involving asian communities, with handwringing over their communities kept to a minimum, but I’ve always suspected that was because the not-racist doesn’t fully believe or maybe know about the strong knit asian community, because asians are that “good minority” who prove how good they are by always doing white things like succeed in schools and the fact that most of the success in the asian community is how rigidly many asian communities support each other and form large areas of entirely asian-focused businesses is largely a good part of their economic assimilation).

This is the best, funniest column on the subject I’ve read.  Ever.  I’m in awe.

Look, as human’s go, alky is particularly stupid.  So other than to make fun of her and to use her as an example of what a ridiculous argument the whole “my friend” thing is, it’s pointless.

Cerberus nailed my point, and I am sure the point of several others, including Jesse’s point, the idea this is bad somehow is retarded.  christians can buy from christian businesses, listen to christian radio and not hurt the world world but if some other group decides to do this, they’re evil?

And even then, it gets complicated.  The whole thing about cars as an example.  Who are you hurting less when you buy an Ford made in Mexico or you buy a Toyota made in Kentucky?

This shit is stupid on a monumental scale.

Nice rant Jesse.

Gee,I do business with the people of color in my community because ... they are there ... they are often my friends ... they offer the right services in a convenient location ... PC stuff like that.

Oh, and all of the above are the result of self-interest on my part.

Frankly, I believe in giving my money to people who share my values. When I give it to my enemies, they will use it to harm me and mine.

That’s amazing.  How do you manage to live without gas?  Do you have an electric car, or do you use non-gas powered public transportation?

Jesse, very timely, since yesterday I received an email about “The Death of Johannesburg” that made my inner post-colonialist cringe.  I got the horrible slideshow, complete with commentary about how MY GOD we can’t consume overpriced cake and icecream in downtown J anymore because of the BLACK BLIGHT—and not a single expression of empathy for those living in these conditions, remembrance on just whose backs white African luxury was built, or a seeming understanding of colonial consequences.

Read the associated blog and cringe at the unexamined fucking privilege:

http://deathofjohannesburg.blogspot.com/2006/07/welcome-to-bree-street-johannesburg.html

But the slideshow and blog are Not Racist, of course, even though they smack of anti-African race propaganda (to the point where I hesitated even posting it—viewer discretion).

“It’s also worth pointing out that hardly anyone reacts with this sort of feeling over a far more ruthless section of the population. Evangelical Christians who will only buy from good people if possible and often are ruthless in the home of banning anything not purchased from the “Christian” community or at least approved by the “Christian” community.”

...well that kind of thing is perfectly okay, because after all Christians are an oppressed minority in America, because even though 90% of Americans are Christians, not all of them are…

Sorry, but when you face rather well-documented economic hardships based on your race, you can either address the problem as it exists or address it like a fucking moron to get around a shitty debate point.

Yes, if there’s one way to reduce economic hardship, it’s to hamstring the gains from trade you receive by insisting that everybody you do business with shares your skin pigment.  This will in no way isolate you from society at large.

To the others in the thread: Of *course* refusing to buy a Japanese car because of WWII is racist.  Is this seriously a question?  To the extent it occurs in WWII veterans it may to some extent be understandable, but that doesn’t make it in any way excusable. 

Buying from only people who share your religion isn’t generally racist, but it’s another form of bigotry that’s ugly.  I knew a guy who wouldn’t see “Golden Compass” because it was written by an atheist (not realizing that I’m an atheist, or that the material gets more hostile to religion later on).

If merit was all that people used to make decisions, why is not every car you see on the road a Toyota?

1) Depending on your particular needs, Toyota may or may not be your best bet.  I currently live in NYC, so I don’t have a car.  When I did, I preferred Mazda or Toyota.  I knew a gearhead who preferred mustangs.  Perhaps notably, neither one of us particularly cared what skin color the people who designed/sold/manufactured the was.

You shouldn’t take anything like gender or ethnicity into account when making a business decision, so therefore your business decision should always default back to doing business with the white guy.

Nobody actually ever said that.  If the best business or Supreme Court justice or whatever happens to be run by the white guy, go for it.  If the best happens to be a black trans disabled lesbian, then run with it.  By insisting on certain demographic characteristics, you are by definition excluding some candidates from the field, and one of those candidates might happen to be the best person for the job.

By insisting on certain demographic characteristics, you are by definition excluding some candidates from the field, and one of those candidates might happen to be the best person for the job.

Of course, at some point, there’s no real difference between the candidates in terms of the qualifications (a black-owned McDonald’s is going to be substantially similar to a white-owned McDonald’s, for instance), so you make decisions based on other things.  I’m going to buy one car from one dealer, so simply by logical process of elimination, I’m going to eliminate dozens of qualified (and perhaps even better qualified) dealers simply by choice. 

Yes, if there’s one way to reduce economic hardship, it’s to hamstring the gains from trade you receive by insisting that everybody you do business with shares your skin pigment.  This will in no way isolate you from society at large.

It’s actually helped preserve and promote thousands of businesses for centuries.  I’m sorry that markets work the way they do, but there’s not much I can do about it. 

Black businesses invariably suffer for a variety of reasons, one of the chief ones being that they have a perceived veneer of inferiority from many white consumers because of location or the race of the proprietor.  If I choose to patronize a black-owned business to combat that perception (which is the point here), why am I a terrible racist but the white consumers going 20 minutes out of their way to get the same thing in a predominantly white area aren’t even worthy of discussion?

I knew a gearhead who preferred mustangs. 

Then he’s obviously prejudiced against Japanese cars. How can you argue that a Mustang is the best car? Clearly a toyota or honda is more dependable and depreciates less. The mere fact that he’s choosing a Mustang indicates to me that he’s not making a merit-based choice.

Don’t forget the not-homophobe and the not-sexist, adequately assisted by Jigglypoof and Sandshrew, respectively.

I think that the idea of black people actively supporting black-owned businesses fills white folk with a sort of dread because economic independence and sustainability has long been considered the cornerstone of the invigorated civil rights movements. From separatist communities in the deep south to the Black Panthers, when black people decide that they would rather support businesses that don’t discriminate against them, they start demanding other equalities. And we can’t have that.

So white people seek to take control of the terms of the discussion: whether it’s to belittle the desire to support one’s community, or dismissing a different cultural aesthetic as trashy and ugly, and you’ve effectively ghettoized an idea. Which is pretty impressive, when you think about it.

Jesse—To the extent those white consumers exist, then they’re racist too.  If you drive out of your way to make sure you’re at a white (or black) McDonald’s, you are racist.  I am amazed this is controversial; we’re rapidly approaching the point where ‘racist’ means ‘somebody who refuses to treat people differently based on race, and/or condemns those who do.’

Tyro—I know nothing about cars.  You’d have to ask him why he preferred mustangs.  I think he preferred the old classic ones? I have no idea.

This is a crock of shit.  I own my own PR business and I belong to several women networking groups, and professional organizations, as well as to the committees and groups sponsered by the state and county Bureaus of minority and women-owned business affairs.

Guess what?  Contrary to the myth white males have been propagandizing, women business owners actually support other women business owners.  Whenever possible, we do business with each other, and trade referrals. 

White males have been doing this forever, and it was always called business as usual.  The fact that a woman of any color wrote this stupidity shows that one, she knows jack shit about business and business networking, and two, she’s a fucking moron.

chingona, are you saying that because someone refuses to buy Japanese or German products because of WWII is racist? I’d say is more like a middle finger to Japan or Germany. Anyone who goes through a war is gonna be bitter toward a country, especially if those countries committed some pretty shitty war crimes.

If the person equally refuses to buy German AND Japanese cars but would buy a Saab or a Hyundai, then I don’t think “racist” is the right word for how this person is making their purchasing decisions. (And this guy wasn’t in the war. His father was. He was born in 1947.)

Actually, I brought it up at all because Allen suggested that anyone who makes a purchasing decision other than on merit is racist. I was pointing out that people make decisions based on factors other than merit all the time (without necessarily being racist).

I actually don’t even think the evangelical Christians who shop from other Christians are necessarily bigoted. It would depend on the extent to which they take it - if it’s just a preference or if it really extends to actually boycotting non-Christians (and I would apply that to any campaign to buy from X type of merchant). A lot of people who belong to very large churches will patronize the businesses of other church members because there is a feeling of trust there (warranted or not). That, in and of itself, certainly isn’t bigoted. If I know a particular business shares my lefty values, that makes me feel better about giving them money, and I have not bought pizza from Domino’s or juice drink from Snapple or beer from Coor’s for many, many years because I don’t want to give my money to people who will use it to advance political causes I abhor. (I also won’t buy American Apparel because of their advertising.) Christians have just as much right as I do to make those sorts of decisions.

White males have been doing this forever, and it was always called business as usual.

This, really, is what it boils down to. It’s like how legacy admissions aren’t affirmative action for white people.

I am amazed this is controversial; we’re rapidly approaching the point where ‘racist’ means ‘somebody who refuses to treat people differently based on race, and/or condemns those who do.’

No, we’re at the point where “racist” means “someone who purposefully ignores the entire history of race in order to make criticisms of rational behavior”.

The problem here is that society is structured in such a way that there’s often no conscious decision on the part of most white consumers to patronize only white-owned businesses.  They just do, because it’s the way that society’s been structured.  Short of a conscious movement to change this, IT WON’T CHANGE.  You propose that we ignore this in favor an allegedly race-blind dynamic which inherently favors racist behavior; we propose that it be faced head on on the grounds and terms which are most conducive to changing it.

You’ve embodied an infantile form of racism as RACE=BAD.  I’m truly sorry that yours is a stupid way of approaching things, but there’s not much I can do about that.

One of the reasons that ethnic groups and college friends patronize each other’s businesses is because there is a tighter web of trust, since usually such people are a friend of a friend. It’s entirely possible that there might be someone else out there, somewhere, who’s “the best man for the job”, but by resorting to an ethnic/social connection to find a business you need, you can be better assured that you won’t lose, while casting your net wider puts you at risk of getting a poor pick. And that’s really the secret to doing well in life: don’t get ripped off and assure you won’t get ripped off by making decisions based on a tight web of social connections whom you can trust.

Jesse—Boldly fight discrimination on the basis of race by structuring your life to ensure you discriminate on the basis of race.  Brilliant!!!  So, presumably, it’s no problem if white men seek out and prefer to do business with other white men because, hey, that’s just the way society is structured.  Definitely not racist—that’s just how society is structured and, well, if you consider it racist you’re blind to race history.

Allen, you’re starting to figure it out: because society is structured in such a way that depending on your own web of trust and level of personal comfort, white-owned businesses will receive a disproportionate favoritism, making it difficult for others to succeed unless they themselves create the same social and business infrastructure that everyone else has.

How many people are choosing white-owned businesses because they’re “the best ones for the job,” rather than because it’s convenient and you know lots of people who’ve used the services from those businesses before? You’re relying on an implicit assumption that every decision everyone makes that aren’t chosen on the sole basis of racial/ethnic/community preference is by definition a decision made on “merit”

And that’s really the secret to doing well in life: don’t get ripped off and assure you won’t get ripped off by making decisions based on a tight web of social connections whom you can trust.

Unless your tight web of social connections includes Bernie Madoff.

Tyro—I have no idea what the skin color of the people who own the businesses for is because it doesn’t matter.  To go back to the car example, I really have no idea who owns the dealership I bought a car from, nor do I know the skin color of the guy who owns the building I rent my apartment out of, and the list goes on.  I don’t care, because I’m not racist.  I would seriously consider therapy if I started performing investigations to find out the skin color of the equity holders of businesses I patronize.  And at least in NYC, there’s usually really no telling who happens to own the business that happens to be convenient.

Wait a second, is Allen Jesse’s imaginary white friend that handily encapsulates all his points about white privilege and blindness?

People make all sorts of preferences in which businesses they go to. I go to one gas station rather than the other (they are equally convienent to by route to work) because it seems to be owned by nice immigrant fellows and sells drug paraphenalia. The owners seem like nice guys and I appreciate the flouting of unjust laws and the hand-lettered sign taped to case that says “tobacco pipes.” When you’re making decisions at that level, I don’t see why it’s horrible to include ‘Is this business owned by someone from a historically shat on ethnic group’ in the calculus.

The premise is so flawed.  Of all the purchases and services I have ever made in my life, I can’t think of very many that relied on the super, absolute, oh my god, bestest of the amazing best person to do that job.

When I bought a car, I researched the hell out of all cars in my price range and bought a Toyota.  That type of purchase does, in fact, require the best and not a single American car made my top 10 list.  Then I bought the exact car I wanted from the dealer who didn’t patronize me.  Fortunately, they offered me a better deal than the two dealerships I walked out of, but I would have paid more because that’s how much being respected means to me.  Now I have my car serviced at a mechanic who charges me way, way too much for a simple oil change, but is (1) locally-owned and (2) employs a few women who (3) don’t appear to be treated differently. 

When I buy earrings, I buy from women selling at fairs even if I could get the same thing for 3 bucks at a Target.  I’ll pay 15 dollars for the conversation, the possible deals, knowing I’m supporting someone who cares about the community as well.

I can’t think of any reason I wouldn’t search out someone as close to me, my values, and my community as possible.  Hell, I am more likely to search out minorities and/or women *because* they routinely have to be better than their white male counterparts.  Plus, I earn decent money and there are a lot of things more important to me than getting the best deal.  It’s quite republican to value money above absolutely everything else so I suppose this mentality makes sense.

Allen, I’m pretty sure that your solution to lynching would have been to not live near trees.

Here’s the thing.  Amy Alkon didn’t have to pull herself up by her bootstraps to be successful.  She’s basically saying that all those black people could be as successful as her if they just worked 10 times harder than she did.  Of course the same thing applies to any disadvantaged group, including poor white people.  Nobody has said it’s impossible for poor people to become rich, only that it’s much more difficult for them.  To make a fair comparison, consider a white boy who grew up really poor and compare him to Bill Gate’s son.  If you truly believe that they have the exact same chances to be rich or successful, then you’re naive.  Now add race, gender, and a lot of other factors on top of that.  Sure, it’s technically possible for anyone to be successful, but it’s much, much easier for some than for others.  Amy Alkon has worked no harder than many poor people, so by her own logic, she should be poor, but she’s not.  She’s glad to accept her success when she didn’t have to do much to get it.  But when other people don’t luck into it like she did, then she blames them for not working harder than she ever did.

The comment on German cars was rather amusing to me, as my father (fought in WWI against the Germans as a teenager, enlisted in WWII but was too old) would crab at Volkswagen Beetles (he called them Hitler cars) when they were in front of him driving slowly, “C’mon Hitler!” which provided enjoyment to me when I was very young. He didn’t seem to have the same feelings against Japanese cars or products. I suppose had he fought in WWII, he might have. The anti-Japanese propaganda at home didn’t really affect him, apparently.

Could we please ditch the intensely stupid and privileged notion that “best qualified” is an objectively meaningful concept absent unanimous agreement on the perfection of the criteria being used to measure qualification? (And sometimes even then—see psychologists work on non-transitive preferences)

The whole idea that there’s some single scale that you can measure people or businesses on for whatever purpose you have in mind really doesn’t make sense. Different evaluators have difference needs and preferences, and those needs and preferences change over time. Even measurements that are correlated with high performance or customer satisfaction are just that: correlated.

Whenever I hear someone claiming differently, I think of someone in my class in college: great incoming SAT scores, near-impeccable GPA, went to medical school… superbly qualified by pretty much any “objective” measure you could ask for.  But any of us who knew him in college would have avoided care completely rather than go to him as a doctor, because the non-objective factors were so terrifyingly skewed the other way. (Okay, maybe you could count the time he was disciplined for dropping a “water balloon” made from a 30-gallon garbage bag out a fifth-floor window onto someone’s car as an objective measure…)

I used to pick fights with my kids over whether pokemon were enslaved and exploited or not.  Uncle Pikachu, indeed.

Discuss.

Jesse, I’m pretty sure your solution to lynching would have been to form lynching mobs that went after random white people, because to do otherwise would be to ignore the history of race.

NB: this was after they discovered the practice of exploiting people of color in the US and Australia for boxing competitions where the men would beat each other bloody and get very little of the take (e.g Jimmy Sharman’s Boxers).

I think somebody named allen needs to be put back in his pokeball and returned to the training center for healing of his delusional madness.

Yes, if there’s one way to reduce economic hardship, it’s to hamstring the gains from trade you receive by insisting that everybody you do business with shares your skin pigment.

I think you’ve seriously misunderstood the argument if you think we’re saying that business owners should discriminate against their customers and only accept customers of their same gender/race/whatever.  If you’re talking about the customers, I’m not sure what kind of “hamstringing” you’re picturing that might occur from choosing to patronize minority- or woman-owned businesses.  In business, there are considerations that can be more important than the bottom line, like reliability and quality.  If the product you buy is cheaper up-front but you have to buy twice as much of it because it keeps breaking down, you haven’t saved a dime.

By insisting on certain demographic characteristics, you are by definition excluding some candidates from the field, and one of those candidates might happen to be the best person for the job.

Actually, in the real world, it’s the other way around:  by not insisting that companies look for candidates with certain demographic characteristics, what ends up happening is that a bunch of white people get hired, because that’s who the people doing the hiring are more comfortable with.  There are many, many studies showing that people will choose candidates with “white” names over those with African-American names.  Even here in Los Angeles, which is one of the most diverse cities in the world, I end up working in all-white offices unless the company I work for has made a major effort to recruit from outside of that group.

When white people do business together, it’s called “the old boys’ club.”  When black people do business together, it’s called racism.  Do you see the tiny problem there?

“I choose you, Negrochu!”

I’m a little late to this thread, but that is fucking awesome!

Allen, I’m sure you believe that the points are making are interesting. None of them, however, are of any help at all to the black community, so I fail to understand what your point is.

Jesse, I’m pretty sure your solution to lynching would have been to form lynching mobs that went after random white people, because to do otherwise would be to ignore the history of race.

No, actually, my solution would be to specifically seek out and protect potential black targets of lynching and to crack down on white lynchers as hard as possible.  But then you’d whine about it because all crimes are hate crimes and enforcement of the law informed by race is just as bad as lynching itself, if not worse.

Allen, Is it your contention that black and white Americans have the same opportunities, that the playing field is level?

I think most are reaching the point of “If it doesn’t advantage blacks, then it’s racism”. There is no objective definition. They simply ask themselves if this does or does not advantage blacks.

No, the problem is that we perceive racism as something more complex than file footage from Eyes on the Prize and Rosewood.

I see allen has not bothered to tell us what he means by “merit,” so merit is no longer relevant to the discussion.

Instead, I will use the more useful term, “good enough.” The Greeks (Hellenic-Americans) in my example patronize Greek businesses and service professionals because they’re “good enough.” And they’re Greek. I assume that while putting a Jesus fish sticker on your door brings in Jesus customers, they’re not going to stay, or return, unless your products and services are good enough.

Informal networks, like the businesswomen’s mentioned above, are common. A co-worker of my wife recommended an auto mechanic to her. The mechanic’s shop is close to their office, and she does good work, but she’s a lesbian, and so is my wife’s co-worker. Dropping my wife off to pick up her car, I noticed a board filled with thumbtacked business cards. All of them were from her customers, and most of them were owned by GLBT folks.

Dropping my wife off to pick up her car, I noticed a board filled with thumbtacked business cards. All of them were from her customers, and most of them were owned by GLBT folks.

And the Vietnamese restaurant I frequent has stacks of business cards and fliers from Vietnamese real estate agents and Vietnamese insurance agents. And the calender from my synagogue has advertisements from Jewish mold remediation specialists and Jewish home construction contractors. And my father-in-law gets his hair cut by a guy he knows from church and hires another guy from his church to take the family photograph every year.

This is how the world works. But if black people do it, all of a sudden it’s wrong and racist?

“No, the problem is that we perceive racism as something more complex than file footage from Eyes on the Prize and Rosewood.”

OT: But, “Rosewood” the late 90s movie makes the interesting suggestion that Ving Rhames and two .45s would have been a solution to lynching and terror. I heard Spielberg was going to have Indiana Jones swing into the camp in “Schindler’s List” and save everyone, but he changed his mind about it for some reason.

John Singleton is bad at making movies. But I bet even he can tell that racism is something more than a dictionary definition.

I choose you, Negrochu!

My hair straightened momentarily & then recurled itself and I almost flipped back in my chair - LOL!

It’s all very simple when trying to understand Allen.  His racism is ingrained, that he assumes if we ignore race and focus just on “merit”, white people will always, always, always be the ones who come out on top.  It is inconceivable to him that white guys might be where they are without actually earning it, just as it is inconceivable to him that a black person, a woman, or some other group might actually be more qualified than a white guy.  People like him just love to pretend that white men dominate so many things because they’re just plain better than everyone else.  They fail to realize that the vast majority of successful men became successful partly because they are white, male, and lucky enough to have rich parents.  I’m sure they’ve done some work to get where they are, but a woman or black person in the same position probably had to work twice as hard to get there.

A few points of order in no particular order:

+Jesse, is painfully on point with this post.

+I drive a toyota & so should you all.

+Tyro & Catron are speaking the unwashed truth.

Adding:

+Catgurl’s targetting array is operating @ a high level of accuracy on this one.

What is racism?

It’s not as simple as favoring businesses who happen to advertise in your church newsletter.

“The Friend” is the archetype that represents our highly-prized enlightened racism, that miasma of capitalist nonsense and white supremacist bullshit that we hold so dear. Our cultural belief in this, and the refusal to acknowledge that racism is not a monolith, keeps us from making much progress on the issue. No one wants to engage in the sort of self-examination necessary to have an honest conversation.

As an addendum, my great grandfather built houses, and only hired other Czechs to work on his projects. So nothing new here on that score.

Alkon’s not-racism is particularly insidious, because it assumes that every day is Conveniently Do Away With All Of History Day.  The basic presumption of not-racism is that racism is clearly limited to whatever it is that’s not what they’re doing (i.e., it’s only racism if it’s lynching, it’s only racism if it’s explicitly stated, it’s only racism if it’s the third Tuesday in July and raining), and as such, the obvious explanation for racial inequality must be the moral failure of the people alleging it.

THIS.
It’s a form of magical thinking. “If I don’t think about things that should bother me they GO AWAY and it’s not an issue anymore! For anyone! Let’s just gloss it over, sweep it under the rug, stick our heads in the sand and wait it out! YEAH! I’m happy, aren’t you??? WHAT? Why are you thinking about things that make you unhappy? That’s not the way to your best life! Why are you bothered by something so inconsequential to ME?” etc. etc. on it goes.
*sigh*

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil - and evil is all gone!

As to one of your points, Uhura:

I’ve been driving a Toyota for 8 years, my noble spouse, Illocano Avenger, late of The Philippine Isles, making that decision because all the Filipinos here in America invariably do that, before they move up to the Mercedes-Benz.( that’s a story for another day) 

Another application of the “good enough” principle, to the point where many large Toyota dealerships routinely hire Filipino salesmen and have sales displays to target that segment of their market.

I used to pick fights with my kids over whether pokemon were enslaved and exploited or not.

I think I know the answer, but which side of the argument were you on?

This anarchist has an extreme fear of eventually having to raise kids. Between cowboys, cops and princesses (not to mention Pokemon trainers), I’m having a hard time finding rolemodels that I would actually want to raise my kids to want to emulate without making them social pariahs when they get to go to school.

Reminds me of a particularly funny passage in the Illuminati trilogy when a young Simon Moon, upon meeting the first kid his age in school, greets him thusly: “Comradely greetings, fellow worker.”

Who could have known that by combining two words like ‘Bruce’ and ‘Cowboy’, the resulting online persona would be a complete douche?

Amy Alkon also spouts evo-psych crapola and is pretty hateful in general. Her “advice” column is printed in our local community/arts freebie and I read it when I want to get my blood boiling about how maliciously stupid some people can be.

I saw the experiment as just that: an experiment. Something that is meant to enlighten and educate and hopefully provoke action. It prompted people to examine racial disparites that still exist in this country at many differnt levels. What people do with that information after the fact is up to them and I cannot see the results being negative, whether it’s getting word out about black owned business or figuring out ways to make more opportunites available at the individual and structural levels.

People that have a problem with an experiment like this need to examine what about it is making them so angry, but hoping for that type of reflection and self-analysis is probably a pipe dream.

One of the interesting things about actions like this is that they’re not just a practical method for combating white racism. They’re also a way to address any ingrained racial assumptions of black business owners—a large part of whose vendor base will by default be white.

I believe the above statement that I have modified proves my point that ‘racism’ and ‘disadvantage’ are interchangeable.

Hey, I can do it too!

Seems to me that the institutions that function in this country are clearly racist, and that they’re built upon racism. And the question, then, is how can white people inside of this country move?

——

We were convinced that we could not limit our vision to certain rights for white people, but instead affirmed the conviction that America would never be free or saved from itself until the descendants of its slaveowners were loosed completely from the shackles they still wear.

——

We preach freedom around the world, and we mean it, and we cherish our freedom here at home, but are we to say to the world, and much more importantly, to each other that this is the land of the free except for the Caucasians; that we have no second-class citizens except Caucasians; that we have no class or caste system, no ghettoes, no master race except with respect to Caucasians?

Yeah, you’re right, that’s totally given me a new perspective on all of this.

I think I know the answer, but which side of the argument were you on?

I used it as a device to make them think about the Pokemon’s situation in broader terms of exploitation and reward systems.  The kids would argue that pokemon liked to duel (and what if they didn’t?) and that they were better off and happier than they were in the wild.  I pointed out that we only get the trainer-centric version of this story - and the fact that they are captured in the wild for the sake of training to fight is kind of disturbing if you pull away from the story line a bit.

Of course I would draw parallels to people saying stupid things like “africans americans are better off than Africans because they were enslaved and brought here”. They got mad at me, but some of the critical thinking sunk in over time.

I think I started this inquiry after an episode where a trainer is abusive, yet there is nothing but mild social sanction for her treatment of her pokemon.  I pointed out that if there were no rules to prevent this abuse, and the pokemon weren’t empowered to resist or return to the wild or change trainers, then something was very wrong here - they were, indeed, slaves.

As they have gotten older, they understand the perverted power dynamics of pokemon a bit more. They understand that Pikachu may have agency, but the whole catch them all thing is screwed.

MsKate: Deconstructing their entertainment is one thing. It’s very nice as a teaching tool, but I’d like them to have an alternative as well. Unfortunatly it seems this means I will have to write my own children books, and I’m not sure I’m up to the task.

http://www.eefortomorrow.com/

More than anything else, this is a black self-help effort, but I’ll be goddamned if the very same people who like to scold us about pulling ourselves up by out bootstraps don’t call us racists any time some of us try to do just that. When someone tries to check you at every turn, well…

The only time Alkon’s argument works is if we install a “Death Tax” that eliminates all inheritance, fund all schools equally, ensure all children are given free college, healthcare and confiscate all trust funds.

Then people will begin with an equal footing and can be judged on merit alone.
But that’s communism or something.

Did Bruce get zapped? Not complaining, just curious.

It’s always lose lose,eh, plants. If you study hard and get into a good school, you’re this and that. If you party and don’t get into one, you’re this and that. Get a promotion? How dare you. Stagnate at a low level job? terrible.

Well, the nice thing about it is the fact that this is something we really don’t have to argue with anyone about, or ask anyone’s permission to do. We just have to do it.

Oh, and it’s not always “lose/lose”. It’s usually just people wanting you to lose/lose, and trying to shame/browbeat you into doing so. A pretty fair amount of the time, you can bypass them by just snickering at them and walking away:)).

Bruce got zapped, Hooks. He signed up with a disposable e-mail address, which doesn’t fly (when we find out about it, anyway.)

One of the reasons that ethnic groups and college friends patronize each other’s businesses is because there is a tighter web of trust, since usually such people are a friend of a friend. It’s entirely possible that there might be someone else out there, somewhere, who’s “the best man for the job”, but by resorting to an ethnic/social connection to find a business you need, you can be better assured that you won’t lose, while casting your net wider puts you at risk of getting a poor pick. And that’s really the secret to doing well in life: don’t get ripped off and assure you won’t get ripped off by making decisions based on a tight web of social connections whom you can trust.

This, Tyro.  Downside: sharks within that community swim more freely and hunt more savagely.

seeker, it wouldn’t surprise to know that in recent years, affinity fraud has been the 2nd largest kind of scam that happens in this country.

Here’s one of my favorite examples of a shark in action:

Pump up the Oompah! THE MAN WHO WOULD BE POLKA KING is an irreverent look at the rise and fall of Grammy-nominated polka music superstar Jan Lewan, whose defection from Poland to the West in the 1970’s led to fame, fortune and an international Polka Empire. But when Lewan’s empire collapsed under a cloud of scandal, the polka world was stunned to learn of the greatest polka-related financial crime in history.

Antigone: “if you refuse to buy a Japanese or German product because of WWII is racist.  You’re blaming a race of people for a war that most were only tangentially related to, (and now, probably almost not at all) so that’s pretty much the definition of racism.”

seriously? have you ever spoken with a world war two vet? they endured hell at the hands of the germans and japanese, and have developed at least deep resentment for it. the germans for being monsters and the japanese for pearl harbor and the treatment of allied pow’s. sure, many vets have come to terms with it, but i have yet to see a world war two vet driving a german or japanese car. it’s not racism, it’s inner demons that took up residence in their souls after serving their country, far from home and in the pits of hell.