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Next entry: Guy Fawkes? Really? Previous entry: I Think My GOP’s Gone Crazy

Boobquake

Religion

When Jen of Blag Hag first proposed “boobquake”, I thought there was a 60% chance that I wouldn’t be able to stay out it.  Now I guess that has reached 100%.  The idea started because an Iranian cleric blamed “immodest” women for the frequent earthquakes in Iran.  Jen suggested that this cleric’s hypothesis be tested by American women choosing to wear something immodest on Monday, starting with Jen’s promise to wear her most cleavage-flashing shirt.  Unfortunately, a cute joke like this quickly devolved into exactly what you’d imagine, complete with drooling morons acting creepily titillated in a way that makes you wonder if they’ve ever seen a woman naked in the 20-30 years that have passed since they went through puberty.

I can understand responses to boobquake like Beth Mann’s, which basically amount to denouncing the lasciviousness of it all, and pointing out that a system where women are paraded around like animals in a zoo for male enjoyment isn’t really the best alternative to forcing women to be covered from head to toe, whether they like it or not.  But I do think it was a little overblown.  Beth took comments like my initial ones (basically, “I can’t participate, since cleavage is only considered immodest if you have a lot of it.”) as more self-loathing than they were in my case and probably many others.  Also, I don’t have a problem with lasciviousness so much as the inequality and the objectification of women for sleazy dudes.  And one could argue that this isn’t quite like completely objectifying faux campaigns like the “post your bra color for breast cancer” nonsense, since this campaign is actually proving a point. 

However, I’m not really comfortable with boobquake.  I pointed out to Jen on Twitter that I was going to be reading for the Boston Skeptics that night, and so it would be highly inappropriate for me to wear booty shorts, and make a mockery of me.  Not that I have booty shorts to wear.  By mainstream American standards, I have pretty much no clothes that would be considered immodest.  Not that I’m prudish by any means.  Just a little goes a long way is my style. 


But here’s the thing: What I’ll wear on Monday—-and what I wear on any day—-may not be immodest by American standards, but I’d imagine an Iranian cleric would think I look like a whore in a knee-length skirt, V-neck, cinched waist, and my hair out where everyone can see it.  “Modest” is a relative term, not only between cultures but within them.  (See: aforementioned differences in what is considered “modest’ when a big-breasted and small-breasted woman wear the exact same shirts.)  By Iranian cleric standards, every day in America is boobquake.  And according to the original story, the cleric was chastising not women around the world for flashing a little boob or wearing tight jeans, but going after Iranian women who show a little hair or wear clothes that indicate that a shape might be visible underneath. 

It’s kind of easy to go after an Iranian cleric saying something stupid like this, in other words.  We don’t really need to convince the vast majority of Americans that Iranian clerics who are scandalized by women’s hair are in the wrong.  Americans of every faith—-including most American Muslims, I’m guessing—-and every political persuasion are already atheists about the claim that women’s hair causes earthquakes.  And most of them will take mockery of this guy’s claims not as a shot across the bow at all religious claims, but just of the “silly” ones that go against our cultural norms.

But we have plenty of woman-hating religious claims in our culture that are taken seriously.  Take for instance, the claim that an embryo is a fully formed human being with rights, and so women’s bodies have to be routinely commandeered against their will in order to gestate them.  That’s a religious claim, as much as anti-choicers pretend otherwise.  It’s based in the idea that godsaidit—-god said it’s a person, so sorry, women!  Perhaps it might be more useful to challenge religious claims that are accepted as not-ridiculous in our country.  I’m imagining that a lot of the guys who are applauding boobquake might find it a little harder to grapple with an abortion speak out, for instance.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:34 PM • (72) Comments

This is exactly my reaction, put into much more eloquent framing, and I’m even the type to wear things considered immodest by American standards, haha.

But yeah, I really hate when Truth or Fact or Science campaigns are a little too on the Obviously Not Going to Affect Anything/Just Silly side, because I feel like it distorts the idea of taking action and does make invisible the issues you pointed out above.

Comment #1: upfish  on  04/23  at  07:29 PM

Trying to think of a day that would encourage women’s freedom.

No makeup day?  No high heels day?  Dress like a man day?

Ah, I know.  Fart publicly and then laugh about it day.

Comment #2: oldfeminist  on  04/23  at  07:29 PM

@ oldfeminist: I like “Fart publicly and then laugh about it day,” in part because I think it addresses the issue of modesty without necessarily sexualizing it; “modest” doesn’t just mean “covered up,” even in Iranian Cleric-speak.  “Defy gender roles day” might just be the right idea; burp and fart and scratch in public without shame, curse and spit and dress like you really don’t care what anyone thinks, which may be a low-cut top and miniskirt or a loose-fitting t-shirt and sweatpants.  Of course, burping, farting and scratching would probably have a stronger effect in the “immodest” outfit.

Comment #3: nekouken  on  04/23  at  07:42 PM

I don’t think anyone is going to argue that boobies cause earthquakes isn’t silly but how is anyone going to dress in a way that says abortions aren’t murder. The closest I got was buying one of those little plastic fetus things they hand out and drilling a hole in the head so I could turn it into a keyring.

Comment #4: pharmakos  on  04/23  at  08:06 PM

America has its rules - there was a huge thing recently about proper attire for female attorneys. I don’t know what the incidence of eating disorders are, but I’m sure its pretty high.

It reminds me of a heretical Protestant sect in the 1500s who wanted a “community of women” - women should be owned by everybody, not just the nobles. Community property as opposed to private property. Which is nice for the male lower classes, but doesn’t change the fact that women are still someone’s property.

And considering the fact that Ben Roethlisberger is not ending up in prison, especially with the details of what he did, it seems like rape is basically legal here.

Comment #5: bay of arizona  on  04/23  at  08:26 PM

Apparently I can get the same results for dressing immodestly as I can by wearing my little Tumi bag strap across my chest. So sez the Modesty Survey at The Rebelution: http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

A purse with the strap diagonally across the chest draws too much attention to the bust.

Other gems from there:

High-heeled shoes cause girls to walk in a suggestive way.

Tights with designs (e.g. polka dots or stripes) draw too much attention to the legs.

Wearing spaghetti-strap tops over modest shirts is a stumbling block.

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Girls should always wear clothes that show little body definition (e.g., jumpers or loose dresses).

It is a stumbling block when a girl reaches into her shirt to adjust a bra strap.

Seeing a girl’s chest bounce when she is walking or running is a stumbling block.

Note: In this entire site, I did not see anything policing what guys wear or what girls would consider to be a “stumbling block”.

Comment #6: PixelFish  on  04/23  at  08:55 PM

I’m with 2 and 3—there are plenty of things that are “immodest” without buying into the usual.

But remember, don’t wear most of those things at work if you value your job.

Comment #7: paul  on  04/23  at  08:55 PM

but how is anyone going to dress in a way that says abortions aren’t murder.

The first thing I thought of was not a manner of dressing but that performance art piece a few years back by some grad student who had unprotected sex and then took herbal abortifacients every month and documented the resulting discharges (which may or may not have contained products of conception). I’m pretty sure it was written about here and just about everywhere in the feminist blogosphere. Now that’s something that challenges religious claims taken seriously in our culture. It made me pretty uncomfortable and I think of myself as very pro-choice.

Comment #8: chingona  on  04/23  at  09:03 PM

Comment #6.

Apparently I should chop off my breasts for modesty’s sake, or at least chop off my legs, because otherwise, I will walk and bounce?! Maybe the men answering that survey should remember this little verse.
If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out!
Which seems to mean the Bible says that they are responsible for their own dirty thoughts about women. Not. women’s. fault.
But, patriarchy.

Comment #9: Samantha Vimes  on  04/23  at  09:17 PM

That’s kind of only for women and really awkward to organize even if you are woman (I think).

Comment #10: pharmakos  on  04/23  at  09:18 PM

No, it’s not really the sort of thing that can be done on a mass level. Having taken emergency contraception once and had two days of nausea and severe cramps, I would have no desire to repeat the experience just to make a point.  All I’m saying is that it certainly was a stick in the eye.

Comment #11: chingona  on  04/23  at  09:29 PM

the claim that an embryo is a fully formed human being with rights

No no no!  Blastocysts, embryos, and feti are super special snowflake human beings with SPECIAL rights.  They have the right to force another person to donate ALL of her organs to their life support, willing or un-.

Fully-formed human beings aren’t allowed to commandeer other fully-formed human beings’ bodies—not even for a pint of blood.

Comment #12: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/23  at  10:50 PM

I like the cut of some of your jibs this evening.  Fart publicly.  Defy gender roles.  I’m responding to the Iranian clerics by wearing what the fuck I want.  Which is what I do most days, but still.

Comment #13: DonnaDiva  on  04/23  at  11:25 PM

Something else bothered me about the “boobquake” thing but I couldn’t put my finger on it until now. I’m still trying to figure out how to say it, but it’s something like this.

You’re an ordinary Iranian. Your country is constantly threatened by the United States for… well, nobody’s really clear on what exactly you did wrong, but there’s this ongoing invasion talk. And you’ve got this one loopy cleric… or maybe an awesome cleric who you totally trust… making this comment about women’s modesty. Maybe par for the course among clergy there, maybe a little hyper, whatever.

And the thing that everyday Americans are really getting behind is… aggressively mocking the patriarchal attitudes that (truly do) seem to surface in your national culture. Not a giant anti-war movement.

Of all the external things that might improve the lives of women in Iran, I’m not sure the Boobquake thing is even a break-even. It might even be a negative, if this thing comes off as more anti-Iranian than pro-woman.

I guess it boils down to that: Is this going to be perceived by Iranian women as anti-sexism or as just another slam on Iran by Americans? And here in the US, is it all that useful to draw attention to sexist tropes in particular alien cultures when ours is swimming in them too?

So… yeah. Not sure I’m okay with this.

Comment #14: catfood  on  04/24  at  12:22 AM

I’m a little iffy about it for all the obvious reasons. I guess the only thing I can say about it is that I’m a guy and I should probably shut up and leave it to the women.

Comment #15: BrianX  on  04/24  at  12:54 AM

God, this pissed me off so much I just wrote a blog post about it.  A kinda drunken, angry one, but nonetheless.

I think this is hideously ethnocentric.  I don’t really think me showing my tits to the world is in any kind of solidarity or is helping AT ALL the millions of women who are afraid to show an ankle lest they be stoned or fined or even shamed.

Comment #16: Gayle Force  on  04/24  at  01:04 AM

Am I the only one who finds it a little ironic that on the one hand, Iranian clerics insist on excessive ‘modesty’ because they’re afraid of men’s reactions, but that a movement designed to protest against this is derailed by, er, men’s reactions?

In all though, I’ve got to agree with the general feeling that there are better ways to protest against this. Catfood is right in that while many Iranian women find wearing a burqa or a hijab restrictive, it doesn’t mean they find dressing in skimpy, revealing clothes desirable either, and I’m guessing that there are a lot of women in Islamic theocracies who are Muslims but who don’t necessarily identify with that interpretation of the rules. The best protest is, as Amanda mentioned in her post, living for yourself, practising and standing up for what you believe and when possible campaigning for positive political and social change.

Comment #17: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  04/24  at  01:11 AM

I’d originally meant to say campaigning for those changes in general, but when possible in those countries too, though I’m unsure what exactly any of us can do. Even if there are progressive groups there in need of some donations, it’s hard to see how western money coming in could do anything but undermine their status within those countries. Any suggestions would be welcome, it goes without saying it’s a very worthy cause.

Comment #18: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  04/24  at  01:15 AM

“Fart publicly and then laugh about it day.”

You know there are fart fetishists, right?

Comment #19: sirkowski  on  04/24  at  01:55 AM

To a degree, I’m not sure the women planning to wear a low-cut shirt on Monday are actually trying to make a principled stand about anything.  The motivations seem a little more varied, in part because it’s so simple to pick out a certain cut of shirt for a single day’s wear that you don’t really have to be deeply involved in the associated issues to participate.  A lot of people who aren’t necessarily making feminism the central facet of their lives, but who are nonetheless feminist (my category), seem to be reacting more with a “fuck the haters, we will not dignify idiotic pronouncements with serious responses” attitude.  It’s an irreverent response, but quite possibly an honest expression of the amount of respect felt towards the kind of people who think a flash of cleavage/leg/neck/hair/fill-in-your-sexualized-body-area-of-choice will destroy the world.

Comment #20: fluffster  on  04/24  at  02:07 AM

@6: the Modesty Survey is an exercise in douchebaggery, no question, but the statements cited by Pixelfish aren’t the survey’s results: they’re questions that girls sent in (or questions that the men preparing the survey developed based on girls’ questions).  The results are the percentages of respondents (who were supposed to be Christian men and boys, although I don’t know how well they controlled for that) who responded to the question on a 5-point scale of “strongly agree” to “strongly disagree.”  On the “little body definition” question, for example, (that’s the first one I found when I looked over the site) about 60% disagreed and about 20% were neutral—so, good news, gals!  Only 20% of Christian guys think you’re a whore if you don’t wear a potato sack.  The results on the tights question, as another example, were similar—most of the respondents give their seal of approval to girls wearing striped or polka-dotted tights.  (I know I’m relieved.)  On the other hand, most of the “guys” (the site’s preferred terminology for their respondents) do have a problem with your breasts bouncing, although many graciously acknowledge in the comments section that they understand some girls can’t help it. 

The douchebaggery comes mainly in the fact that the survey accepts without question that “guys” have the right to make these kinds of judgment calls.  (The overview section says something about how guys understand that girls get to choose how they dress, but they are “just asking for a little help.”  Help with what, exactly, is not spelled out.) 

The survey has exactly one question about guys’ responsibility in this area (the ill-defined area where they are asking for “help”).  It’s a text-response question, so there are no percentages.  Most of the responses say things like, “Of course it’s the guy’s responsibility, *but*,” and then goes on for several lines about how it’s the girl’s responsibility. 

Here’s one response I especially liked:  “First, we must view women properly. They are loved by God. Every woman is someone’s daughter, sister, or mother. How do you want your mother, daughter, sister treated?”  Get that?  Guys must view women “properly” and keep in mind that the woman they are oogling belongs to somebody else! 

(Unfortunately, the way the page is set up it doesn’t appear to be possible to link right to a specific question.  To find the guys’ responsibility question (the one!), from the page pixelfish linked to, you want to pick “open questions” at the bottom of the “select a category” menu; the questions will then appear to the right of the category menu.  Pick the last one, and scroll down to see the answers.) 

The whole site is worth a look if you’re interested in this kind of thing.

Comment #21: A.  on  04/24  at  02:14 AM

Not that I am an expert in this, but…
I work for a rape crisis center. I am a proud feminist. The attitude at my work is not 100% serious, despite the sad, disturbing and depressing things we experience. Our attitude is, let’s stop some rape, and let’s try to laugh and be optimistic every so often, as well. So I am happily participating in boobquake. I am ignoring the stupid people that are using this to objectify women, and remembering that, FOR ME, I am reclaiming my body, sexuality, and ability to not be depressed as fuck all the time about this misogynist bullshit. At the very least, I am celebrating my right to show as much or as little skin as I personally prefer. Let us laugh for one day, please, before we go back to the daily rape apologists, the misogynists, the institutionalized sexism, the street harassment…you know, the daily bullshit. Thank you smile
That being said, I love this blog.

Comment #22: Audrey  on  04/24  at  02:24 AM

if thine eye offends thee, cast women to the dogs.

Patriarchal emotional blackmail.

Comment #23: scratchy888  on  04/24  at  02:27 AM

I certainly don’t object to the idea that wearing a low-cut shirt is a pretty silly form of politicial protest. But I disagree with the idea that if a women DOES wear a low-cut shirt, she is buying into “a system where women are paraded around like animals in a zoo for male enjoyment”. If I wear something that shows off my cleavage, I really don’t do it to get male attention. I do it because I like how I look in the shirt. So I won’t be participating in “boobquake”, I think that dressing by standards that Iranian Muslims (or American conservatives) would consider “immodest” can indeed be an act of celebrating/reclaiming one’s body and sexuality, not objectifying oneself.

Comment #24: Miffyfish  on  04/24  at  03:12 AM

“If I wear something that shows off my cleavage, I really don’t do it to get male attention. I do it because I like how I look in the shirt.”—Miffyfish

I do it because I have no ability to deal with overheating, and a body that generates a lot of heat.
And if I do it Monday, it will be because the weather is warm, and because I live in an earthquake prone city and I want to defy the nutcases by my immodesty.

I’d also like to predict that not only will it fail to trigger seismic activity, but the overall level of harassment against women won’t be changed one iota by a larger percentage of us showing what nature gave us.

Comment #25: Samantha Vimes  on  04/24  at  06:12 AM

catfood:  The least we can do is make sure to mock our own perverts.  Err, clerics.  Or Robertsons.

Comment #26: Crissa  on  04/24  at  06:58 AM

Has anyone read the comments on that modesty survey? seriously, the lengths that these people will go to see some boob, and then have the gall to say it’s all the womans fault! One guy was saying it was immodest to wear dresses with loose sleeves because if you stand off to the side when a woman has her arm up, you can totally see her bra.

Comment #27: Leah Jaclyn  on  04/24  at  08:03 AM

But I disagree with the idea that if a women DOES wear a low-cut shirt, she is buying into “a system where women are paraded around like animals in a zoo for male enjoyment”.

If I said that, you’d have a point.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/24  at  10:04 AM

I can hardly blame women for feeling uncomfortable with this silly campaign, well-intentioned though it might be. And the comments about how there are much better ways to show solidarity with Iranians, or work to improve US relations with Iran, are also well-taken.

I am struck by the psychology of Mr. Sedighi’s statements. He views women’s sexuality, and perhaps his own attraction to women, as a powerful, dangerous and subversive force. He wishes to keep women’s bodies hidden so that these dangerous forces are held in check. Seems like a paranoid view of life.

Comment #29: atheist  on  04/24  at  10:09 AM

I thought we were supposed to be burning our bras.  No?

Comment #30: Ms Kate  on  04/24  at  10:14 AM

As a cleavage owner, I feel like I spend way too much time figuring out what bra goes with what shirt so that I don’t pop out or my bra doesn’t show or that my girls are aimed properly or achieve the proper altitude so as not to gap my shirt.

Then I wonder why I bother, but then again, I’m frankly not comfortable in a business situation or most situations when that soft little line from neck to shirt is visible because it does attract both male gaze attention and female sexual attention too.  My coworkers are civilized folk, but cleavage just does that.  I’ll have to think that over a bit.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  04/24  at  10:17 AM

“The overview section says something about how guys understand that girls get to choose how they dress, but they are “just asking for a little help.” Help with what, exactly, is not spelled out.”—A.

That site really creeped me out. I read it as they were asking for “help” with not being motivated to rape or sexually assault women. I doubt they meant it to come across that way, and I doubt (or at least I hope) none of them are thinking along those lines anyway. Probably it’s just “help us not think impure thoughts” and “help us not get boners and/or feel like we really need to masturbate.” Because of course, masturbating or even thinking about sex would be eeeevil. (So where does all that love for “natural” stuff like not using birth control come from, when Christians are seemingly ALL ABOUT shunning “natural” urges?)

I hate stuff like this, because it implies that men don’t have the ability to control themselves ... they do. I mean, yeah, telling yourself never to have a boner again is probably pretty damn difficult,—but compared to “I am never going to sexually assault anyone!” ? The entire thing comes off as weird, convoluted victim blaming. Except instead of rape, it’s, “If you wear that shirt, I am not responsible for the fact that I’m GOING to think about banging you.” Which still has rapey undertones for these guys, since the implication is that the thoughts are evil and could lead to evil deeds. (Except even consensual sex is evil, apparently, if you’re not married, so I don’t even know where to begin with this ... I feel like I’m walking in a creepy rhetorical circle and every turn is a WTF moment.)

From that site, it seems Christian men are being raised to think that they’re uncontrollable sexual beings (and women are raised to believe that they’re passive seducers just by existing at all). I wasn’t raised Christian, but growing up, I often heard stuff like “if you start kissing a boy, he might not be able to stop himself from going to second base and third and then before you know it, you’ll have gone TOOO FARRR.” As though once the women says “yes” to one thing, or even just initiates contact at all, it’s all over and her agency will disappear. It’s a scare tactic, and it’s an effective one. (It’s also why women who really want to have sex and men who don’t want to are held up as a joke in media, because this is “impossible” in our society and therefore a hilarious, tiny minority ... even though this happens frequently in real life.)

In conclusion, nothing can stop a man once he’s got a boner. IT MUST BE PREVENTED AT ALL COSTS.

Comment #32: Samus  on  04/24  at  11:06 AM

Something about it reminds me of when I was marching with codepink in DC, and everyone around me began chanting “no peace, no pussy”.  I was very uncomfortable with it, and not just because I thought it might end up on Bill O’Reilly’s show.  And yes, I am well aware of the Lysistrata implications, but…

I like sex.  Sex isn’t a duty.  And I don’t use withholding sex as a punishment. It seemed to me to buy into so many stereotypes about women, and I couldn’t chant it.  The other thing about codepink was that it did sexualize protesting, which seemed okay.  I remember when I first heard of them it was because four of them had taken their shirts off and protested in their bras to get attention.  It was cool.  But, after I joined I found out that their t-shirts run like children’s shirts.  I had to buy an x-large and I am a medium in almost all shirts.  And the x-large was NOT loose at all, it was form-fitting.  So what about a large woman, or an extra-large woman?

Kind of similar with this.  Great boobquake, unless you have small ones, or, you’re heavy enough that if you showed your boobs you would attract and incredible amount of negative feedback.  Or if you’ve had a masectomy. 

You know, after a while, what happened was, I started to think that the sexualization of activism wasn’t so cool after all.

Comment #33: JennyLI  on  04/24  at  11:17 AM

PixelFish @ 6

what the hell do they mean by “stumbling block”?

Comment #34: jefft452  on  04/24  at  11:39 AM

A stumbling block along the path of keeping your penis purified?

Comment #35: JennyLI  on  04/24  at  11:40 AM

It’s a stumbling block to a man’s pure relationship to god.  In Rockland County, NY, where I’m from, busses running in the fundamentalist Jewish areas have curtains in the certer.  The women must sit in the back of the bus.  If it happens to be prayer time, the men close the curtains so that the women don’t distract the men by their very existence.  And trust me, the women are already dressed in the most boner killing ways possible.  I guess this is why some of these cultures keep men and women separate in worship.  Even in a burqa,  a dirty, impure woman is nothing but a temptation to go straight to hell.  This stuff is ancient.  I don’t know how they sold it at the beginning, since many ancient cultures were sex positive.  It’s both the heart and foundation of patriarchy: a religious view that women are less than, are impure and dirty, and a threat to men’s righteousness.

Comment #36: jackspratt  on  04/24  at  12:31 PM

the thing to remember, though, is Iran is not saudi arabia is not syra, etc. etc.  There are many good books about women living in Iran, and from what I can tell, many cosmopolitan women think the clerics and mullahs are assholes anyway.  Many did not vote for Ahmadinejad (Many did not vote anyway, because they thought there wasn’t a chance in hell that the liberal they wanted would win).  I think a good analogy would be if any of us lived under a hard line christian type government (Which is entirely possible)  We would resist in our own ways.  I think it is kind of arrogant to assume that it is American women that have to protest this, when many Iranian women are resisting in their own way.  It is almost like this protest makes it seem like Iranian women are too stupid to realize they are being oppressed, when in fact Iran has a long history of feminism, and many, many are actively resisting Ahmadinejad and the clerics

Comment #37: kitten parade  on  04/24  at  01:17 PM

A: Yeah, I got that those were things that not all their respondents thought were stumbling blocks, but the fact that they were getting guys to vote on those things in the first place and that somebody had thought them up and that the survey never once mentions male modesty* all scream of control issues to me. You get the impression that no matter how you dress, they still want their loopholes for why it’s your fault they have “bad thoughts.”


*I’m not a great believer in the concept of modesty, having grown up in a religion that did the whole “Girls be modest so that guys can guard their thoughts” while seeing the guys get NO equivilant message. (They were told not to masturbate, but it was always implied that if they did, it was probably because some little hussy somewhere wasn’t covered up enough.) The raging double standards piss me off, although it does make it pretty clear what the real deal is: Control of women.

Comment #38: PixelFish  on  04/24  at  01:20 PM

In fact, Tehran is a very cosmopolitan city, and many women push through the requirement to wear a hijab by wearing what amounts to a pretty scarf tied very loosely on their head (like 1950’s jackie o loose).  If these women weren’t resisting why else would the clerics feel the need to say something like this?

Comment #39: kitten parade  on  04/24  at  01:32 PM

I’ll shut up now, I was a big fan of Lelia Ahmed and Islamic feminism in college.

Comment #40: kitten parade  on  04/24  at  01:33 PM

“wearing a low-cut shirt is a pretty silly form of politicial protest.”

Is it, though? Dana Goldstein argues, “In 1979, women provided key support for the Islamic Revolution. During the intervening years, they have played a key role in subtly subverting Islamic law, in part through pushing restrictions on women’s dress to their breaking point.” I think it’s fairly straightforward that any and all resistance to authority feeds further resistance to authority. By your logic, it would be incidental the rise of the miniskirt and other hallmarks of “outlandish” dressing (the bloomer, etc.) corresponded to increasing freedoms for women.

On the other hand, I think the idea that flaunting one’s breasts here in the US in ways that Iranian women could never imagine being able to do themselves? Eh, it’s not really a great show of solidarity. It does read kinda as “fuck you, suckers. Look what we can get away with over here.”

Comment #41: samanthab.  on  04/24  at  01:56 PM

I don’t see this as political protest so much as it is a protest for reason. No-one is saying that the guy can’t be a prude, just that saying that boobies cause earthquakes is ridiculous, and that we can prove that

Comment #42: Leah Jaclyn  on  04/24  at  02:24 PM

If anyone is actually interested in women and feminism in Iran, and veiling, instead of just laughing at the funny brown people, they might start with reading Persepolis, or watching the film.

Comment #43: Katherine  on  04/24  at  02:29 PM

35, 36, & 39
thanks, I get the concept, but often wingnut choice of phrase goes over my head

“It does read kinda as “fuck you, suckers. Look what we can get away with over here.”

yeah, I had always thought that the original idea behind “modesty” was not “don’t show any skin” but “don’t flaunt your wealth”
as in “we live in a small bronze age tribe, and you are a real asshole and trouble maker if you brag how expensive your new boots are to your neighbor who doesn’t have shoes”

Comment #44: jefft452  on  04/24  at  02:29 PM

“The overview section says something about how guys understand that girls get to choose how they dress, but they are “just asking for a little help.” Help with what, exactly, is not spelled out.”—A.

I read this as: “Please help us to better define your arbitrary rules about our bodies, so that if you attempt to attack us because of our bodies, there is a slim chance you may have to take responsibility for your actions if we say we tried to follow the ‘rules’.”

Comment #45: Princess Rot  on  04/24  at  02:30 PM

“You get the impression that no matter how you dress, they still want their loopholes for why it’s your fault they have “bad thoughts.” - Pixelfish

They will always want loopholes. The ever-changing and complicated rules are just smoke and mirrors to keep “the other side” dis-empowered and exhausted from running around in circles trying to protect themselves from the negative effects of a dichotomy they can’t really get away from. It’s a powerful thing, being able to blame someone else for your thoughts and actions so the blamed person seems like the bad guy and you can get away with being a huge asshole. When you get right down to it, all the sophisticated rationalizing in the world can’t hide the basic purpose: I want to have my cake and eat it.

Comment #46: Princess Rot  on  04/24  at  02:43 PM

@38 kitten parade - To me, it doesn’t assume Iranian women are stupid, but just skips over them altogether like they don’t exist, along with our own woman-haters who often say essentially the same thing as this Iranian cleric did. They might not say women’s immodesty causes earthquakes, but you could spit from a moving vehicle and hit somebody who believes it causes rape. You wouldn’t even have to be driving past a church.

Comment #47: snobographer  on  04/24  at  02:58 PM

Show us your tits!

Comment #48: Alkaloid  on  04/24  at  03:22 PM

exactly snobographer and it is almost as if American feminists are acting in a patriarchal fashion toward Iranina women

@Katherine - especially since the beginning of the war- the middle east has always been portrayed as some sort of monolithic, backwards conglomerate.  Of course, this just ignores the entire history of colonalism and politics in the region.  I mean, this shit doesn’t just happen in a vaccuum.  I will never forget during the build up to the iraq war, G.W. made mention of one of the reasons for the war being to free women.  Which was a fucking larf, because women under baathism had more freedom then many of the countries we are allies with.

Comment #49: kitten parade  on  04/24  at  03:33 PM

“The ever-changing and complicated rules are just smoke and mirrors to keep “the other side” dis-empowered and exhausted from running around in circles trying to protect themselves from the negative effects of a dichotomy they can’t really get away from.”

Which is brought up in the previously-mentioned Persepolis.  The more attention and mental and emotional energy it takes to split the difference between living your life how you want and not getting into trouble with the morality police, the less attention and mental and emotional energy you have to really think about how you’re getting fucked over by the powers that be.  If every little thing like putting on lipstick turns into this giant thing where too much could result in you getting picked up and beaten in custody and fined a month’s wages, you don’t have enough left over to be superpissed about how you can’t criticize the government without getting harassed by the state.  If you’re worried enough about trying to walk a line between not being a stumbling block to the boys without being “rebellious” or non-compliant or failing to be pleasing as defined within the male headship paradigm, you’re not worrying about whether or not the whole god thing might be bullshit in general.

Comment #50: preying mantis  on  04/24  at  03:56 PM

“Fart publicly and then laugh about it day.”

You know there are fart fetishists, right?
Comment #19: sirkowski on 04/23 at 11:55 PM

1.  Yes, I was targeted by one years ago on a newsgroup, and
2.  Why should I care?  Seriously, there are marching fetishists, so we shouldn’t march?  Foot fetishists so we shouldn’t have feet?  Wouldn’t this actually be a “fuck you” to people who would like to restrict our freedom to do things that give them hard/wide-ons?

Comment #51: oldfeminist  on  04/24  at  04:36 PM

I should say I was targeted by someone who wrote fart fetishist stories about me.  Was the person a fart fetishist?  I do not know.

Comment #52: oldfeminist  on  04/24  at  04:44 PM

Well, really we don’t have to leave the country to play this game. We could all go out and make deals with the devil (although the lil fella seems to be media shy so this would be hard to pull off in public) and see if we have an earthquake. The downside being it may take a few hundred years to find out if it worked. Or we could all have teh gay sex and wait for another hurricane. Although this only really works in coastal cities in the southern and eastern portions of the country. Or we could all say we belong to this neat religion that asks us to love our neighbors as ourselves and give to the poor and not judge people so we won’t be judged and basically be cool cats and then not do any of it! Think that’ll make jebus cry and destroy us?

Or did Iceland offend the money gods by having their economy collapse and therefore make the volcano spew?

Comment #53: shade  on  04/24  at  05:36 PM

Zahara’s Paradise is a good web comic to read, too.

Comment #54: banisteriopsis  on  04/24  at  06:05 PM

I don’t see this as political protest so much as it is a protest for reason. No-one is saying that the guy can’t be a prude, just that saying that boobies cause earthquakes is ridiculous, and that we can prove that.

Yes.  This.

Also:

I wasn’t raised Christian, but growing up, I often heard stuff like “if you start kissing a boy, he might not be able to stop himself from going to second base and third and then before you know it, you’ll have gone TOOO FARRR.”

I once dated a boy who’d been taught pretty much that, with the difference of: if you make out with a girl, you aren’t going to want to stop, and you’ll start pressuring her and then rape her if she hesitates, so if you get a hard-on at any point in the making out you have to flee or become a rapist.  He chose to flee instead of testing that, which wasn’t the worst possible response, but left me ranting about poor communication skills and crazy sex ed teachers when I found out what was going on.

Comment #55: fluffster  on  04/24  at  07:35 PM

I don’t see this as political protest so much as it is a protest for reason. No-one is saying that the guy can’t be a prude, just that saying that boobies cause earthquakes is ridiculous, and that we can prove that.

Well the cleric’s comment wasn’t about breasts specifically or cleavage, it was about modesty. You can defy standards of modesty by wearing anything that doesn’t make you look completely shapeless. Expose your ankles. Or fart and burp out loud and swear like a sailor.
I don’t know why every other organized women’s protest or fundraiser (esp the ones put together on Facebook) has to be all “BOOBIES!!!”

Comment #56: snobographer  on  04/24  at  10:49 PM

That site really creeped me out. I read it as they were asking for “help” with not being motivated to rape or sexually assault women. I doubt they meant it to come across that way, and I doubt (or at least I hope) none of them are thinking along those lines anyway. Probably it’s just “help us not think impure thoughts” and “help us not get boners and/or feel like we really need to masturbate.”

I’m about 99.9 percent that they mean impure thought/masturbation, not rape, and that part didn’t creep me out that much (it actually made me feel kind of sorry for these guys, thinking that totally normal human desires are evil). The part that REALLY creeped me out were the answers to “how do you feel about women who dress immodestly?” The majority of the men said they felt “disgusted” or, worse, “angry” at women who dressed immodestly. That was borderline scary to me.

Comment #57: chingona  on  04/24  at  11:32 PM

Particularly as a more well endowed woman who has basically given up on the idea of never showing cleavage. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to limit myself to crew neck t-shirts, and that means sometimes there will be cleavage. I don’t go out of my way to flaunt it, but I’ve stopped slouching and keeping my arms folded over my chest either. I’m a grown woman. I have breasts. People will just have to deal with that.

Comment #58: chingona  on  04/24  at  11:35 PM

I did get the feeling, reading the comments on that survey that the guys writing the comments would like it if you bound your breasts in public so they wouldn’t have dirty thoughts.
The thing that squicked me out the most were the men claiming that women didn’t own their bodies, god and their future husband did.

Comment #59: Leah Jaclyn  on  04/25  at  05:47 AM

Samus, we can be pretty sure that anything a non-contracepting fundamentalist says about birth control not being natural is a smokescreen for believing that birth control doesn’t allow for enough public control of private sexuality, wanting to reinforce the role of women as essentially stuck in the homeplace, and feeling a weird anxiety about outbreeding the non-white people. (The formal answer to why we have natural urges is that God made women to appeal to their future husband-inseminators, and that women don’t have urges, what are you talking about? Thus young marriage and wifely submission, which insures that sperms aren’t wasting their potential. Anything else is unnatural)

Why yes, I do have a hobbyhorse, topic-wise.

Re: boobquake, I feel like going through a whole day without worrying overmuch about how my body looks to other people is winning the war. I therefore purpose to be cleavage-blind: I might have cleavage, but how would I know? Maybe I don’t! Doesn’t seem relevant!

Comment #60: purpleshoes  on  04/25  at  09:12 AM

So I am a white woman in California who is disgusted/offended/pissed off with/by the idea that women need to hide themselves so that men never have to take responsibility for their own sexual actions. I am upset about that no matter where it happens on the planet, and I know that it is law in Iran. That pisses me off, and it should piss the world off. But from the comments here, my wanting to do something about it - or even make a statement about it here in my own country - is “ignoring Iranian women”. I call bullshit.

Maybe I will show cleavage on Monday, maybe I won’t. It depends on what clothing I decide to wear. I already wore one particular top last week - it has has the most cleavage I want to get away with at my corporate job - and I don’t like repeating outfits so quickly. But the broader points are this: nothing women wear can stop earthquakes or stop men who want to do something [masturbate, rape, think about a someone sexually] and the average American woman is much more immodestly dressed than the average Iranian woman on any day. Even those women in that polygamous cult with those dowdy dresses are more immodestly dressed than the average Iranian woman. Women’s attire should not be legislated, period. I’d be saddened if Iranian women and/or feminists felt differently, but I can’t do much about that. What I can do is remind my fellow citizens that many women in the world do not enjoy simple freedoms, as a little reminder of how embarrassing the behavior of many parts of our planet really is when viewed as a whole.

n Rockland County, NY, where I’m from, busses running in the fundamentalist Jewish areas have curtains in the certer.  The women must sit in the back of the bus.

What the fuck?

Comment #61: Ursula  on  04/25  at  12:13 PM

n Rockland County, NY, where I’m from, busses running in the fundamentalist Jewish areas have curtains in the certer.  The women must sit in the back of the bus.

What the fuck?

Comment #62: Ursula on 04/25 at 10:13 AM


I know right? I’ve heard of that going on in regions in Isreal. I’d have thought it would be illegal in the U.S. after the civil rights movement and bus boycotts. I thought we determined that treating people like second-class citizens was a terrible no-good very bad thing. Oh, they’re just women? Nevermind then. Carry on. blah blah cultural relativism blah blah religious freedom
Kind of puts the lie to the notion that that level of misogyny is exclusive to Islam and Muslim countries too, doesn’t it.

Comment #62: snobographer  on  04/25  at  04:46 PM

People in the states (particularly Muslims) may not hold that women’s ‘naked’ hair causes earthquakes, but they’re not exactly far off. At least if they’re anything like the cultural norms in the UK population. The use of the hijab as a symbol of oppression and otherisation is far more common then you’d imagine.

(apart from that I pretty much agree, I think it’s mighty silly, but I disagree with most of the active lechery being attributed to the people, more like thoughtlessness as a rule).

Comment #63: Alex051  on  04/25  at  06:57 PM

“If thine eyes offend thee, pluck them out”
If you can’t control yourself, and evil truly enters your soul through your eyes.  Then, perhaps, you’re better off without them.  Clearly the earthquakes are not the fault of immodest women, but of men who can’t control themselves on those occasions that they view “immodest” women.

Comment #64: Geeno  on  04/25  at  09:36 PM

Are the tornadoes in Mississippi and alabama because god hates gay-hating marriage hypocrites with high divorce rates?

Comment #65: Ms Kate  on  04/25  at  11:00 PM

Chris Muir did his tribute to Miss McCreight here, with an embedded link to the Blag Hag.

Comment #66: Dana  on  04/26  at  08:36 AM

This post is my first window into the discussion, so I apologize if this is trite, but my initial response is this:

Jen (and Amanda, and Beth Mann, etc.) are probably doing much more to confront a conservative Iranian cleric’s restrictive sense of feminine modesty by writing blog posts in which they honestly express their thoughts than by anything they might choose to wear or not wear.

Comment #67: FearItself  on  04/26  at  09:59 AM

I would like to see a response to this where women are neither “modest” nor sexaulized.  I think that would do a better job of proving the point anyway.  For example, we could wear short skirts but not bother to shave our legs, exfoliate the skin, get a tan, etc.  We could leave our hair uncovered but let it get greasy, or turn gray, or just let it be straight or curly or wavy or whatever texture it wants to be.  Or I could just wear a low-cut shirt without a bra and let my large, floppy breasts hang free, rather than stuff them into a push-up bra and show a bunch of cleavage.  Or I could wear something that shows my midriff, including my surgery scars and stretch marks.  Stuff like this would show that women’s bodies are useful for simply being bodies, and don’t need to make the Earth move, either over a continent or in the bedroom.

Comment #68: bananacat  on  04/26  at  12:02 PM

I think it might cause more impact if women here dressed as women there are required by law to dress.  Not by showing the b00bies, but by covering even the ankles and hair. 
Who is going to notice if a large group of women wear low cut shirts on a warm spring day (unless they are identical, have a logo, etc)?  Who will notice if a large number of women forgo make-up, wear ground brushing skirts and ensure every strand of hair is hidden by even so little as a filmy scarf on the same day?  I bet those amoung the later would out number those of the former by huge numbers.

Comment #69: helen w. h.  on  04/26  at  12:34 PM

Haters Gon’ hate

Comment #70: sirkowski  on  04/26  at  08:41 PM

yes ursula, it is the law in Iran, but try educating yourself in the history of behind the Hijab before you call bullshit, mmkay?  And be my guest and wear the lowest cut shirt eva!  That’ll really show those Clerics!

Comment #71: kitten parade  on  04/26  at  09:01 PM
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