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But feminists are the man-haters

ChoadsFeminism

Sorry about the downage from yesterday.  But we’re back up now, just in time to make fun of Fay Weldon for this pandering to the right wing press in England.  It’s a standard issue feminist-baiting piece—-basically, look at this feminist talking about how feminists are so stupid!—-but as usual, the only people looking stupid are the anti-feminists.  In this case, Weldon is so stupid that she doesn’t even realize how directly she contradicts herself in her pandering.  For instance, she bashes feminists for our supposed man-hating. 

But the trouble is, the battle became too fierce, and the whole culture encouraged women to believe that men are stupid, useless creatures who are the enemy.

Is that so?  Well, let’s hear Weldon correct the record:

‘At work, gender should not come into it. Women are right to refuse to make the coffee, but when you get home I’m afraid you have to make the coffee.

‘It’s such a waste of time trying to tell your husband to pick up the socks or clean the loo. It’s much easier just to do it yourself.’

And:

‘They (men) just don’t want to commit to you, and why would they when you are a busy working woman who can look after yourself and probably goes to bed easily with them?’

And:

‘The thing is, you need to find a man who is cleverer than you, or at least not let him know that you are cleverer than him,’ she said.

‘Women want boyfriends to be like their girlfriends, fun to go to the pictures with, but men are not like that. They want sex and they grunt. If you really want a man to be nice to you, never give him a hard time, never talk about emotions and never ask him how he is feeling.’

And:

She once told women not to expect orgasms but to fake them and still praise their lover.

Weldon fancies herself someone who understands how wonderful men are, something we feminists supposedly don’t get.  But in her view, men are mean-spirited, lazy, bad lovers, egotistical monsters who need to oppress women to feel good about themselves.  In addition, Weldons believe that men simply cannot be convinced that women have personalities worth enjoying.  They merely want you to do housework and offer sex, and in exchange, they’ll pretend to like you.  But they can’t be expected to pretend to like your female friends, who they get no sexual or domestic service from.  But that’s not all!  Men are also subhuman, in her mind, incapable of any higher emotions besides competitiveness, insecurity,and misogyny.  Outside of that, according to Weldon, men are just balls of food and sex needs, but they don’t have feelings. 

But feminists are the man-haters.  We hate men so much we think they’re people.  What I fail to understand—-when I hear anti-feminists scold the little ladies about our supposed illusions that men could ever actually like, much less love us—-is why on earth, if men are so horrible, women should associate with them?  Even for straight women, in Weldon’s world, expecting sexual satisfaction out of men is ridiculous.  From this interview, from what I can tell, Weldon thinks men have absolutely nothing to offer women.  Not sexual pleasure, not kindness, nothing but more socks to pick up.  The only reason it works is anti-feminists think even less of women than they do of men, and thus are capable of believing that women are so incredibly needy and stupid that we’ll cling to men who give us absolutely nothing, so we can lie to ourselves and pretend that it’s possible that anyone could love us.  Bleak worldview, indeed.

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:24 PM • (93) Comments

*applause* exactly! If all men were as anti-feminists and MRAs describe it would be better for every woman to be a cat lady or a lesbian. My husband is the best “girlfriend” I could ask for, complete with intellectual discussion and shopping. I suppose I must be his beard.

Comment #1: Geekasaurus  on  08/29  at  03:06 PM

It almost makes me want to cry when I see how miserable some people are, and how desperately they’re begging for help.

Comment #2: junk science  on  08/29  at  03:09 PM

To hear these people talk, heterosexuality is barely a step above bestiality. On both sides. How unappealingly grim.

Comment #3: purpleshoes  on  08/29  at  03:13 PM

No joke.

Comment #4: Punditus Maximus  on  08/29  at  03:13 PM

What’s also sad is that some actual closeted people get into these kinds of hateful, empty heterosexual relationships, and it doesn’t occur to them until pretty late in life that they’re actually gay and would be happy in a gay relationship, because they keep getting told that straight relationships are supposed to be terrible and painful, and it’s not that anything abnormal is going on with theirs. However, I don’t think most people like this Weldon are actually gay, or would be any happier in gay relationships if they were, because they’re so broken.

Comment #5: junk science  on  08/29  at  03:31 PM

“If you really want a man to be nice to you, never give him a hard time, never talk about emotions and never ask him how he is feeling.”

Yes, I’m sure that G would greatly appreciate it if I told him he needs to stop talking about his girlish emotions when he worries about his father’s prostate cancer.  I should never ask him how he’s feeling after he gets off the phone with his mom and tells me about all of the drama going on with our mentally ill nephew.  Because, since he’s a man, he would clearly be completely unaffected by all of these stressful things and really just wants to hunker down and watch football.

Oh, wait, he hates sports, too.  Damn it, why won’t he fit into this round hole I’m trying to pound him into?

Comment #6: Mnemosyne  on  08/29  at  03:35 PM

‘Women want boyfriends to be like their girlfriends, fun to go to the pictures with, but men are not like that.

What?!! I thought the saying “women want boyfriends to be like their girlfriends” it means having to listen to hours of her recounting really emotionally involved bad parts of her day/week which can be psychologically draining to those who aren’t experienced in dealing with them or “just listening” rather than offering suggestions/analyzing the issue*...not having anything to do with suitability of doing a movie date with.

Has the bar been dropped to the floor?

* Am wondering if a larger part of this is personality types as I know many people who have issues dealing with people who just want someone to “listen” to them without saying anything….including most of my aunts…and weirdly enough…they all fall on the ENTJ-INTJ spectrum along with myself…personality types who tend to have issues dealing with emotional factors in themselves and others.  On the other hand, I know one friend who’s great at listening to others for hours on end to help them with deeply troubling emotional issues….though I am wondering how much of that has to do with the fact he’s an ESFJ.

Comment #7: exholt  on  08/29  at  03:39 PM

Haha, my wife had an epiphany last night: “it’s all just jocks and nerds on the guy side, cheerleaders and feminists on the girl side, and conservative vs liberal is just the gang colors.”  Then she smiled wanly, and realized that converting anyone was going to be really hard.

Comment #8: gorobei  on  08/29  at  03:46 PM

There seems to be an formula for these pieces:
Accuse feminists of hating men
List male stereotypes i.e. stupid, lazy, sexist, commitment phobic, etc.
Argue that, of course, men are stupid, lazy, sexist, commitment phobic, etc.
Toss in some faux controversial sex advice so your piece seems edgy
Accept (graciously) pats on the head from stupid, lazy, sexist, commitment phobic men
Aaaand publish!

Comment #9: shakahi  on  08/29  at  03:52 PM

If you really want a man to be nice to you, never give him a hard time, never talk about emotions and never ask him how he is feeling.

I would change it to “if you really want a man to be contented,” but pretty much accurate. if he wants to talk about emotions, that’s different. But most men don’t want to analyze, for example, “the relationship” any more than they want to watch the process of their meals’ digestion. Emotions are ineffable; too profound to be discussed.

She once told women not to expect orgasms but to fake them and still praise their lover.

Well this is a hunk of hearty horseshit. Never lie about something so fundamental. But being sufficiently in tune with one’s partner to know how to vary one’s pressure and location and rhythm does not come easily. Help him out, give him feedback. Take responsibility for your own orgasm.

Comment #10: Hector B.  on  08/29  at  04:02 PM

‘They (men) just don’t want to commit to you, and why would they when you are a busy working woman who can look after yourself and probably goes to bed easily with them?’

God knows that’s right.  What guy in his right mind would ever want to get with a woman who is active and competent, who has some money of her own, and - worst of all, ooh gross -who likes sex?

Comment #11: W. Kiernan  on  08/29  at  04:05 PM


God knows that’s right.  What guy in his right mind would ever want to get with a woman who is active and competent, who has some money of her own, and - worst of all, ooh gross -who likes sex?

Apparently, men don’t even want someone who’s fun to see a movie with.  Housekeeper and prostitute, period.

Comment #12: Billingham  on  08/29  at  04:08 PM

You know, I’ve been with women who wanted to talk about The Relationship all the time.  Turns out they didn’t want to have a relationship, they just wanted to talk about it.

But I’ve never been in a relationship that was healthy that didn’t need regular maintenance in terms of making sure we have compatible visions for where things are going and how we’d like to be treated.  It’s just that the conversations don’t need to be long, whether or not there are incompatibilities.

I wonder how much of the conflict is empathy-based, that conservatives are so incapable of placing themselves in someone else’s shoes that doing so requires this Herculean soul-sucking effort.

Comment #13: Punditus Maximus  on  08/29  at  04:18 PM

In other words, Weldon has absolutely no respect for men - none whatsoever; nada, zilch - and is projecting her own hatred onto feminists: “Don’t talk to men as if they’re fully functioning human beings; they aren’t. They grunt. They fart. They smell bad. They’re naturally lazy and cannot be expected to pick up after themselves. They’re not terribly fun to go to ‘the pictures’ with - Hey, see how classy I am with these wonderfully genteel anachronisms? - because they secretly hate everything about you except your va…er…lady parts.”

Amanda’s take is spot-on here.

Comment #14: Nil  on  08/29  at  04:19 PM

I’m having Helen Mirren “date rape is women’s faults” flashbacks, and they aren’t fun.

Comment #15: Ranylt  on  08/29  at  04:25 PM

I don’t think she’s talking about endlessly analyzing relationships, which most interesting people don’t want to do, regardless of gender. She’s saying don’t ever remind a man that he’s womanly and pathetic enough to have feelings at all. Treat him as the emotionless macho automaton he desperately wants to believe he is.

Comment #16: junk science  on  08/29  at  04:33 PM

She’s saying don’t ever remind a man that he’s womanly and pathetic enough to have feelings at all. Treat him as the emotionless macho automaton he desperately wants to believe he is.

Seriously, though, where are these men who want to pretend they’re emotionless automatons?  My dad was born in 1938 and he doesn’t even come close to that.  Nor does any other man I know.  I’ve seen some of them online, but I’m assuming that’s because they have a hard time making human contact in meatspace.

I keep hearing about these mythical men who just want to crouch down in their cave and not be bothered with human emotions, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually met one.  I’ve met people who don’t want to be bothered with other people’s emotions, but they generally want you to pay attention to all of their emotions, which isn’t the same thing.

Comment #17: Mnemosyne  on  08/29  at  04:47 PM

I’ve met people who don’t want to be bothered with other people’s emotions, but they generally want you to pay attention to all of their emotions, which isn’t the same thing.

Exactly. Assholes are always in touch with their asshole emotions, and expect others to care deeply about and cater to them. It’s self-flattery to think of your demanding self-centeredness as cool, rational detachment because you don’t want to know or care about other people’s emotions. You’re certainly not detached from yourself.

Comment #18: junk science  on  08/29  at  04:51 PM

Yes, yes, men are quite nice, you shouldn’t hate them. They’re so nice that all they do is want sex and grunt and you can’t actually talk to them because they don’t have the capacity for conversation. Isn’t that nice?

Comment #19: Lauren O  on  08/29  at  04:54 PM

I’m wondering exactly what she means by “never give him a hard time.”  Giving someone a hard time usually means to me a sort of teasing, e.g. the kind of interaction that is common between friends.  If that’s getting ruled out, it’s clear that she really views women as the lucky-to-have-the-job employees of a man, except without the paycheck and while performing services that are illegal if paid for anyway.

Comment #20: Billingham  on  08/29  at  05:10 PM

Men are not tender hearted? They just want housework and sex from women? Her relationship advice is worse then Cosmo! Glad I’m not her S.O./husband.

Comment #21: pitbullgirl65  on  08/29  at  05:14 PM

I so don’t get it.  People are people, screw this “men are from mars, women are from venus” crap.  If you have a theory that “all men…” or “all women…,” take it to the Republican noise circuit, because rational people don’t think that way (maybe they get out more, or something.)

Comment #22: gorobei  on  08/29  at  05:23 PM

She once told women not to expect orgasms but to fake them and still praise their lover.

Yeah, REALLY glad not to be her SO. Can you imagine? “Hey, honey, I just announced to the world that you’re a failure in bed and I fake it because you have fragile little fee-fees.”

Weldon apparently does not really disagree with strawfeminists; she’s just angry that strawfeminists believe the proper reaction to icky menz is “avoid” rather than “cater to”. What a dumbass.

Comment #23: mythago  on  08/29  at  05:51 PM

I would change it to “if you really want a man to be contented,” but pretty much accurate. if he wants to talk about emotions, that’s different. But most men don’t want to analyze, for example, “the relationship” any more than they want to watch the process of their meals’ digestion. Emotions are ineffable; too profound to be discussed.

So, you think that women who want to talk about feelings are cheap, inferior people?  Interesting.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/29  at  05:52 PM

Sarcasm aside, I’ve noticed the men who don’t want to talk about “the relationship” (fascinating how you use scare quotes! are relationships a fantasy concocted by desperate women?) are men who don’t want to hear about how they aren’t meeting a woman’s needs the way she is meeting theirs, and they don’t want to be told they need to try harder.  In the reverse circumstances, the commendable male stoicism dries right up, I’ve noticed.

It’s not stoicism. The word is privilege.

I’ve personally never been a fan of The Relationship talk, because it’s often an attempt to soften the blow of a complaint.  Like, instead of saying, “When you go three days without saying much to me that’s interesting or affectionate, I start to feel you’re not in love or you’re taking me for granted.”  I suppose if I were a better-performing woman, I’d talk about how “we” don’t do fun stuff anymore, and let’s have a talk.  Not that I have much cause to complain about my current boyfriend, who is the shit.  But in the past, I really could see why women resorted to The Relationship talk.  And why I’m a failure at it, since I’m more in the complaining department.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/29  at  05:56 PM

“....they grunt.” They grunt?!?!! Who the fuck has she been dating?

Comment #26: La Lubu  on  08/29  at  05:58 PM

Wait, is she claiming that men don’t like to go to the movies?  Quick! Someone call Hollywood!  They’ve got their target audience all wrong!

Comment #27: laterose  on  08/29  at  06:02 PM

I’ve met people who don’t want to be bothered with other people’s emotions, but they generally want you to pay attention to all of their emotions, which isn’t the same thing.

You really hit the nail on the head there.  In fact, in my experience, the kind of guy she’s talking about in the article just LOVE to talk about their own feelings - it’s when you bring up YOURS that they clam up and play the “men are manly and don’t want to talk about feelings” card.

Comment #28: nico  on  08/29  at  06:06 PM

But most men don’t want to analyze, for example, “the relationship” any more than they want to watch the process of their meals’ digestion. Emotions are ineffable; too profound to be discussed.

I’m having flashbacks to past boyfriends whose feelings about me were apparently so profound they treated me like chopped liver.  I chose to walk away.  Some women, hoping beyond hope that men like this can be changed, try to talk about their feelings.

Comment #29: keshmeshi  on  08/29  at  06:06 PM

Amanda pretty much beat me to it.  Damn.

Comment #30: keshmeshi  on  08/29  at  06:08 PM

Seriously, though, where are these men who want to pretend they’re emotionless automatons?  My dad was born in 1938 and he doesn’t even come close to that.  Nor does any other man I know.

Exactly.  That’s why I’m amused at the idea that men don’t want to talk about their relationships at all.  That’s not necessarily a bad thing.  Most men I know make affectionate, non-condescending references to the emotional component of their romantic relationships like women do.  I do know men who are incapable of talking about their wives in a way that differs from how you talk about your dog, and they always weird me out.  I find myself wondering how they got her to marry in the first place.  At some point, they had to open up in order to even advance the discussion of getting married. 

Maybe it’s that men that are stunted emotionally save it up for one big proposal and ignore the rest?  I’m not sure.

Men not only talk about their relationships all the time, like women do, they reach out to others for advice and help, like women do.  I’ve had so many men reach out and ask me for advice. They’re just like women! I feel silly even pointing this out.

Of course, I grew up and still maintain a steady diet of rock and pop music, where high emotion from men is normal.  Though I have noticed that there do seem to be fewer love songs even than when I was a kid and Kurt Cobain was singing heart-wrenching songs about love.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/29  at  06:09 PM

Take responsibility for your own orgasm.

Not to jump on you or anything - it’s just that I’ve been seeing this sentence crop up a lot in feminist circles and I just hate it. 
I get what it means - you have to tell your partner what you like, etc, not just expect him to guess - and I agree, but, shit, it just makes sex sound like hard work. 
I want my PARTNER to take responsibility for my orgasm!  Sure, I’ll help him out (and return the favor), but if I have to be the one doing all the work to get myself off then I might as well just stay home with my vibrator, thanks.

Comment #32: nico  on  08/29  at  06:13 PM

And another thing: Weldon and others like her who seem to think that feminism made possible men who use women’s desire for affection to sport fuck them are so insane.  Once again, I have to point out that pop songs about whether you’ll still love me tomorrow predate second wave feminism.  What’s changed is the reliability of women’s hurt feelings.  Now a man can’t be so sure a woman he sleeps with is pinning hopes on it.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/29  at  06:14 PM

What’s changed is the reliability of women’s hurt feelings.  Now a man can’t be so sure a woman he sleeps with is pinning hopes on it.

And that is exactly what these dudes are so pissed off about.  You can bet that, for a whole lot of them, it was never about the fucking so much as the power.

Comment #34: nico  on  08/29  at  06:17 PM

From #22

People are people, screw this “men are from mars, women are from venus” crap.

gorobei, I always hated that meme too.

The best retort I ever saw was, “No, Men are from Earth and Women are also from Earth. Deal with it.”

Comment #35: atheist  on  08/29  at  06:59 PM

that women who want to talk about feelings are cheap, inferior people?

No, only superior people can handle the ineffable with any kind of ease. A guy talking about emotions is like Spock going to fix the warp drive without donning any kind of radiation protection. The result is that he will die and have his coffin shot into the Genesis Project. In contrast, women can work in the middle of a warp core breach without being instantly destroyed.

I’m a failure at it, since I’m more in the complaining department.

In such a case that will mean the guy will not be contented. Many dissatisfied women can live with this outcome. Change may be painful, but it leads to personal growth, they figure.

I put “the relationship” in quotes because it’s often spoken of as an entity with a life of its own. In many cases it’s the equivalent of a house that’s a fixer-upper—it’ll take a lot of work, but then you’ll have something to be proud of.

I’ve had so many men reach out and ask me for advice. They’re just like women!

Well this could mean a variety of things. If you know the woman well, your insights will be valuable. On the other hand, some guys maintain one platonic galpal as a guide to the mysterious world of women and their motivations. They are essentially looking for generic advice on how to deal with the archetypal woman. Others are just looking for a sympathetic ear, a sort of wastepaper basket for emotions. And then of course there are the NiceGuys (tm) who think that speaking of relationships will lead to pantydropping.

Comment #36: Hector B.  on  08/29  at  07:44 PM

My reaction, in a boostopre the first time I encountered the ‘Men are from Mars ect’ was to turn, look at my shopping companion confusedly and say “Really? Because, you know, I was brought up not to date outside my *species* let alone date someone from a whole ‘nother *planet*. If he arrives for the date in a spaceship and is all KLAATU BARADA NICTU, the date is off. I will suddenly remember I need to floss my cat or something.”

The bookstore employee setting up the display laughed so loudly the manager came to see what was going on.

It’s nonsense. Pernicious damaging nonsense at that.

Comment #37: bbrugger  on  08/29  at  07:49 PM

Regrettably, because I do a lot of sparring (a kind of combination of Western boxing and kickboxing), it is now pretty much automatic for me to regulate my pace by giving somebody as hard a time as they give me.  If they give me an easy time, I generally reciprocate, but without a second’s thought I tend to up the ante if somebody is already giving me a hard time.

Comment #38: scratchy888  on  08/29  at  07:52 PM

Men not only talk about their relationships all the time, like women do, they reach out to others for advice and help, like women do.  I’ve had so many men reach out and ask me for advice. They’re just like women! I feel silly even pointing this out.

Amanda,

Don’t mean to derail, but am curious about one thing.

Out of curiosity, is there something wrong with someone who feels drained psychologically after being asked to sit and only listen and “not analyze or offer advice” when a friend does “ask” to discuss a bad relationship situation for several hours, especially when a substantial part of the reason for it going south was because of his actions (think creepy “nice guy”)?

Comment #39: exholt  on  08/29  at  07:55 PM

“....they grunt.” They grunt?!?!! Who the fuck has she been dating?

I teach English to Japanese people, and my text book reliably informs me that when Americans are paying attention to you, they bob their heads and grunt.

Comment #40: scratchy888  on  08/29  at  07:55 PM

Well this could mean a variety of things. If you know the woman well, your insights will be valuable. On the other hand, some guys maintain one platonic galpal as a guide to the mysterious world of women and their motivations. They are essentially looking for generic advice on how to deal with the archetypal woman.

I think I’ve had a few of these hangers on.  Unfortunately there is nothing conventional or even particularly predictable about my own behaviour, so no clues about general womanhood I’m afraid.

Comment #41: scratchy888  on  08/29  at  07:58 PM

I teach English to Japanese people, and my text book reliably informs me that when Americans are paying attention to you, they bob their heads and grunt.

Interesting.  From interacting with Japanese classmates and coworkers and perusing aspects of their popular culture like their newsmedia or anime/doramas…..many naive Americans IME could be easily lead to believing that Japanese people, especially those inclined to drink also bob their heads and grunt…sometimes repeatedly.  LOL

Comment #42: exholt  on  08/29  at  08:08 PM

A guy talking about emotions is like Spock going to fix the warp drive without donning any kind of radiation protection.

Wow, what a vicious and untrue stereotype.  If this is your problem, it’s yours.  Don’t put it on all men.

Out of curiosity, is there something wrong with someone who feels drained psychologically after being asked to sit and only listen and “not analyze or offer advice” when a friend does “ask” to discuss a bad relationship situation for several hours, especially when a substantial part of the reason for it going south was because of his actions (think creepy “nice guy”)?

I wouldn’t think so.  They need to get over it or find a friend with endless patience.  That I have a lot of patience for that probably says something dark about me, I’d think.  I find people’s romantic woes a welcome relief from the world’s woes.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/29  at  08:16 PM

The misandry here is actually worse than the misogyny. Unbelievable. Men are such wretched beasts there’s no sense trying to treat them like humans.

shakahi’s formulation upthread is accurate. It’s a sub-formula of the general, media-generating method: say something incredibly fucking offensive and stupid, but justify it with a paltry stereotype (and academic-sounding language). The result? Instant coverage, and praise from the assholes who love your stereotype.

BTW, what’s the use of getting with a man who’s “cleverer” than you are if that man is incapable of communications more sophisticated than grunting?

Comment #44: No One of Consequence  on  08/29  at  08:24 PM

I wouldn’t think so.  They need to get over it or find a friend with endless patience.  That I have a lot of patience for that probably says something dark about me, I’d think.  I find people’s romantic woes a welcome relief from the world’s woes.

Give me the world’s woes any day over the discussion of romantic woes.  At least I have the somewhat comforting illusion of having some conversant knowledge in dealing with the former as a result of my academic and personal interests whereas with the latter, it feels like a mix of blindly walking through a renewable minefield and feeling like my soul is being engulfed by some overwhelming psychologically draining force.

Comment #45: exholt  on  08/29  at  08:32 PM

I’m noticing that the article itself was not written by Fay Wheldon, but by Beth Hale. Apparently these quotes are coming from an interview, but a lot of them sound facetious to me, like: ‘But men nowadays aren’t s***. They’re actually much nicer.’ Having read her page on Wikipedia, I could see the comments going either way, but I am heavily suspicious of the actual author having used select quotes (that may or may not have been meant seriously in the first place) to build a hit-piece.

Comment #46: Dylan Vane  on  08/29  at  08:32 PM

But in her view, men are mean-spirited, lazy, bad lovers, egotistical monsters who need to oppress women to feel good about themselves.

You say that like those are bad things.

(That’s only slightly facetious—one of the big things about buying into male privilege, especially if you read the pulp literature thereof, is that all of those things are actually signs of their manliness and the Higher Purpose their lives are destined to fulfill. If men weren’t assholes, they would stay at home and raise kids instead of inventing helium or getting killed in a war, and then where would History or Great Literature or Progress be?)

Comment #47: paul  on  08/29  at  09:12 PM

It almost makes me want to cry when I see how miserable some people are, and how desperately they’re begging for help.

After I got past the author’s gleefully pointing out everything that might “irritate the sisterhood” (and of course it’s irritating because it’s just so damn true, not because it’s silly and insulting), this made me sad, too.  Her expectations for her sex life and this:

If you really want a man to be nice to you, never give him a hard time, never talk about emotions and never ask him how he is feeling.

really made me wonder what kind of hellish relationships Weldon must be having.  Obviously, believing that one’s expectations should be lower doesn’t stop anyone from wanting what they want.  I’d imagine that’s particularly painful when you believe, as Weldon seems to, that you shouldn’t want something as basic as human respect.

Comment #48: themmases  on  08/29  at  09:28 PM

A guy talking about emotions is like Spock going to fix the warp drive without donning any kind of radiation protection.

You do realize that we don’t have to shrug and credulously accept this garbage because most of us know a man,, right? Lots of us know more than one. Amanda said, and I will corroborate, that normal men talk to other people about their emotions on a regular basis with no terror or dramatic productions about it. Other people meaning not just their girlfriends, their friends. Us. Who are their friends. Who are reporting facts, not speculating about the unknowable.

On the other hand, some guys maintain one platonic galpal as a guide to the mysterious world of women and their motivations. They are essentially looking for generic advice on how to deal with the archetypal woman. Others are just looking for a sympathetic ear, a sort of wastepaper basket for emotions. And then of course there are the NiceGuys (tm) who think that speaking of relationships will lead to pantydropping.

Of course men who pull any of this sad shit have exactly nothing to do with the kind of decent human beings the women who read this blog choose to be friends with.  Women men talk to are “wastepaper baskets for emotions” in exactly the same way that women men have sex with are “cum dumpsters.” Not everybody is a misogynist; not everybody understands human conversation or human sexuality as an opportunity for men to release toxic waste into the ears or the body of a woman stupid enough to passively receive it.

Comment #49: sophonisba  on  08/29  at  10:07 PM

“‘As long as you have a sort of semi-good looking, able-bodied, intelligent man, you should have his baby,’ she said.”

Oh yeah, because what if you’re dating a man and he’s real good looking and intelligent and charismatic but also has a cane or a wheelchair? Eeeew. Disabled people are so gross. Don’t have babies with them. Sigh.

Personally, my favorite stereotype is the comedian one, which usually takes the form of:
“Ladies, let me tell you something about the difference between men and women. Yes, I’m a comedian and I’m talking about gender differences. Stop me if I’m blowing your mind. Anyway, women are always talking, talking, talking about their opinions, not like men. I, for example, never express my opinions, which is why I’m a comedian. This is because women are more complicated than men. Women go a thousand miles a minute, and all men think about is food, sex, and sleep. Women do not think about these things because women are not mammals, or indeed any kind of organic life form at all. But men do, and that’s all we think about, which is why I just had a ten-minute bit about politics. Men, you all know what I’m talking about? Women are complicated, which is why they want to talk. See, women don’t understand how complicated they are, whereas men do understand, because they’re so simplistic. But women are so complicated that it takes a neanderthal such as myself to condescendingly explain to them their natures, and act like this is something all men know. I, and I alone, will deign to try and get this idea through your thick ladyskulls and into your tiny, complicated ladybrains.”

Comment #50: Lenina  on  08/29  at  10:38 PM

As a man who has been married for 21 years, I have to say I am pissed about not getting the memo.  I make the coffee five days a week and am the only bathroom cleaner and clothes washer in the household. 

I could have been spending all of this time being lousy in the sack and grunting.  And my wife should have been grateful.  Who knew.

Comment #51: Sir Charles  on  08/29  at  11:00 PM

You do realize that we don’t have to shrug and credulously accept this garbage because most of us know a man,, right?

I have suddenly realized that I am no man’s confidant.

Comment #52: Hector B.  on  08/29  at  11:44 PM

Ohhhh, I missed this. From Weldon: ‘As long as you have a sort of semi-good looking, able-bodied, intelligent man, you should have his baby,’ she said.

First of all, any baby I have is ours, not merely his. Secondly - what the hell kind of sad sack dresses up like a 50s-era librarian and spends all her free time turning out this puerile crap? Get a life, you pathetic bigot.

Comment #53: Nil  on  08/30  at  12:05 AM

@ Dylan: I don’t think Weldon was joking - exaggerating a little, yes, but not joking. And she sure does think a lot of herself: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/05/gender.religion

Unfortunately, religion made Weldon a worse person than she had been before - or maybe she’s always been this insufferable, but in a different way.

Comment #54: Nil  on  08/30  at  12:19 AM

what the hell kind of sad sack dresses up like a 50s-era librarian

Well, she was born in 1931, so she had every opportunity to gather a 50s-era wardrobe. Perhaps she just takes excellent care of her clothes.

Comment #55: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  12:20 AM

Hector, if you’re saying that to imply that the men who confide in you are indeed as you describe, I’m not calling you a liar and I’m not saying you’re imagining it and I’m not saying no men are ever like that. I’m saying that it means your friends are dicks.

But my friends aren’t dicks. If you think you are getting a disproportionately hostile response from women on this thread, it’s because you’re insulting our friends. We know them better than you do.

Comment #56: sophonisba  on  08/30  at  12:47 AM

My favorite quote is definitely, “As long as you have a sort of semi-good looking, able-bodied, intelligent man, you should have his baby.” Interesting that she has been married three times.

Comment #57: khoward  on  08/30  at  12:57 AM

Hector (10):

being sufficiently in tune with one’s partner to know how to vary one’s pressure and location and rhythm does not come easily. Help him out, give him feedback.

Faking is the opposite of feedback.

Hector (36):

I put “the relationship” in quotes because it’s often spoken of as an entity with a life of its own.

Well, it is one, whether you talk about it that way or not. Just, if you treat it as a separate entity it’ll thrive better. If that’s your intent.

Comment #58: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/30  at  02:19 AM

“She once told women not to expect orgasms but to fake them and still praise their lover.”

WTF? Why would anyone fake an orgasm? If you can’t get off with your current partner, you’re better off dumping them & getting a new one.

Comment #59: Mark  on  08/30  at  02:32 AM

P.S. That’s what all my ex-girlfriends did anyway.  smile

Comment #60: Mark  on  08/30  at  02:33 AM

Ah Hector.  Here to conclusively prove the point that anti-feminists hate men way more than feminists do.  They even go so far as to wade into hostile territory to argue with feminists about how men really are actually sub-human.

Comment #61: Denise  on  08/30  at  03:32 AM

Faking is the opposite of feedback.

Obviously

anti-feminists hate men

Is it possible that all men are a feminist’s dream, save only me?

Comment #62: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  04:13 AM

Personally, my favorite stereotype is the comedian one, which usually takes the form of:
“Ladies, let me tell you something about the difference between men and women. Yes, I’m a comedian and I’m talking about gender differences. Stop me if I’m blowing your mind. Anyway, women are always talking, talking, talking about their opinions, not like men. I, for example, never express my opinions, which is why I’m a comedian…But women are so complicated that it takes a neanderthal such as myself to condescendingly explain to them their natures, and act like this is something all men know. ...”
Comment #50: Lenina on 08/29 at 05:38 PM

Reading this the first time I thought you were quoting a really funny routine some really brilliant comedian—I was getting the impression of Eddie Izzard, or perhaps George Carlin—did. Then I went back to see who this comedic genius was and realized you weren’t quoting anyone but giving the “shorter” version of a million routines that are seriously saying all this without the “comedian” or audience ever catching on to the real joke.

I applaud you, Lenina—you are that really brilliant comedian.

Comment #63: Mark Foxwell  on  08/30  at  04:14 AM

Why would anyone fake an orgasm?

To spare your partner’s feelings. I’ve had to in the past. You need a rubber bulb and some surgical tubing.

Comment #64: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  04:17 AM

They’re not terribly fun to go to ‘the pictures’ with - Hey, see how classy I am with these wonderfully genteel anachronisms?

This is entirely off-topic really, but in the spirit of international understanding, I should point out that calling the movies “the pictures” is in fact not a genteel anachronism in the UK, but a commonly used phrase, as far as I’m concerned.

Comment #65: Katherine  on  08/30  at  07:09 AM

Unfortunately, religion made Weldon a worse person than she had been before - or maybe she’s always been this insufferable, but in a different way.

Oh, Weldon’s been feminist-bashing for years. I remember her talking total shit on the topic when The Life and Loves of a She-Devil was first televised in the UK, which if I remember correctly was at least twenty years ago. I take nothing she says remotely seriously. She’s a sad figure, really.

Comment #66: killerrobot  on  08/30  at  08:48 AM

what the hell kind of sad sack dresses up like a 50s-era librarian

You know, I had this horrible moment of cognitive dissonance where I realized that she has my favorite personal haircut - the one I used to give myself in the bathroom with paper scissors, in fact. There’s nothing wrong with dressing like a 50s-era librarian - a job that in my experience was often a refuge for, for instance, the town “spinster” and her “spinster roommate” or other 1950s misfits - so long as you aren’t also promulgating complete bullshit on the theory that you’re referencing historical truths about said decade or any other era of human behavior.

Comment #67: purpleshoes  on  08/30  at  12:31 PM

I don’t understand.  Given her description of men, why on earth would anyone want to live with one?  Is she not saying, basically, “You can easily get a man who’s completely undesirable”, as if a man were something that every right-thinking woman needs to have around the house, like flush toilets and windows?

Comment #68: Ledasmom  on  08/30  at  01:25 PM

Look at all the stuff she’s done to her face, and the hairdo.  That tells me all I need to know about her.

Comment #69: Hattie  on  08/30  at  02:27 PM

Hector B., that’s pretty much what it is to be a friend to anyone of any gender, is to be a “wastebasket of human emotions.” I’m not seeing why you feel the need to deride male-female friendships here- those wastebaskets have helped me through difficult times, and I feel that’s as it should be.

Comment #70: samanthab.  on  08/30  at  02:31 PM

Hattie, really, that’s your idea of feminism, is that you can go to a woman’s core based on her appearance? Nice.

Comment #71: samanthab.  on  08/30  at  02:33 PM

Chet (72)

all the attention and time you’re spending on the “relationship”, under the impression that it’s some kind of mutually-owned houseplant you have to cultivate, is damaging to your relationship, because that’s all time and attention you’re not spending on your partner.

It’s really annoying when people in D/s relationships try to convince the world that it’s really best for everyone. It’s like they’re insecure about it themselves.

Look, there’s nothing wrong with listening to your partner, who is, after all the one with will and agency; I’m not arguing that the relationship itself has those. But there’s nothing wrong with working with your partner, overtly if need be, to get the relationship to a place that makes both (or all) of you happy, rather than everone out for him or her self, or everyone catering solely to the other person, or worst of all (unless they agree to this) one of each.

Comment #72: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/30  at  03:29 PM

Why, thank you, Mark Foxwell! smile

Comment #73: Lenina  on  08/30  at  03:30 PM

You know, I had this horrible moment of cognitive dissonance where I realized that she has my favorite personal haircut - the one I used to give myself in the bathroom with paper scissors, in fact. There’s nothing wrong with dressing like a 50s-era librarian - a job that in my experience was often a refuge for, for instance, the town “spinster” and her “spinster roommate” or other 1950s misfits - so long as you aren’t also promulgating complete bullshit on the theory that you’re referencing historical truths about said decade or any other era of human behavior.

I didn’t express this very well, but that’s just it. She’s like an actress who wears a white lab coat to hock face cream or diet pills. It’s a costume she’s wearing - something designed to give her credibility she clearly doesn’t deserve.

Comment #74: Nil  on  08/30  at  03:45 PM

it feels like a mix of blindly walking through a renewable minefield and feeling like my soul is being engulfed by some overwhelming psychologically draining force.

Wow. I’ll make sure never to tell you about the last crappy date I went on.

Comment #75: junk science  on  08/30  at  03:46 PM

There’s nothing wrong with dressing like a 50s-era librarian - a job that in my experience was often a refuge for, for instance, the town “spinster” and her “spinster roommate” or other 1950s misfits - so long as you aren’t also promulgating complete bullshit on the theory that you’re referencing historical truths about said decade or any other era of human behavior.

I might find it darkly funny she were intentionally dressing as a closeted lesbian to give authority to her assertions that men are terrible and living with them is misery you have no choice but to endure. More sad than that, I guess.

Comment #76: junk science  on  08/30  at  03:49 PM

junk, maybe it’s subconscious.

I am serious when I say that this particular crowd of “relationship experts” impute less empathy and fellow-feeling to their partners of the opposite gender than some people who write on the internet about having sex with dolphins or horses impute to theirs. And I’m really not pro-active zoophilia. Still, there’s something slightly less creepy about someone whose psychological makeup moves them to project human emotions onto mute animals (but the horse wants to marry me) than someone who insists that a human who is standing right in front of them is a dumb beast who cannot possibly feel the same feelings they do.

People. People are weird.

Comment #77: purpleshoes  on  08/30  at  04:51 PM

“‘As long as you have a sort of semi-good looking, able-bodied, intelligent man, you should have his baby,’ she said.”

Oh yeah, because what if you’re dating a man and he’s real good looking and intelligent and charismatic but also has a cane or a wheelchair? Eeeew. Disabled people are so gross. Don’t have babies with them. Sigh.

Perhaps out of deference to his disabled status, you might ask before presenting him with an infant of his very own?  What I’m not getting is what it matters when you have babies if the plan is to just deposit them with their respective fathers with a cheery “Look what I made for you!”.  I mean, aside from the fact that Christmas or his birthday might be considered more generally appropriate than Halloween or April 1st.

Comment #78: preying mantis  on  08/30  at  07:06 PM

Wow. I’ll make sure never to tell you about the last crappy date I went on.

Junk Science,

There’s a world of difference between recounting an average crappy date situation to a friend and effectively forcing him/her to listen without responding back with any feedback for several hours straight while s/he is manifesting clear symptoms of “Nice Guy” obsessive tendencies in spades and the fact those tendencies are the main reason why the relationship went south.

Comment #79: exholt  on  08/30  at  08:19 PM

I am serious when I say that this particular crowd of “relationship experts”

It is precisely because I do not consider myself a relationship expert” that I am reluctant to volunteer myself as a counselor to help friends with romantic woes. 

Though I am willing to lend a sympathetic ear and offer my take, I also refer them to friends like the ESFJ friend because they not only have more expertise, but are also better able to counsel those in problematic romantic relationships because they are better able to deal with highly charged emotional situations.  Though, I am trying to learn from him and other friends who are strong in this area, this does not come very easily for me.

Comment #80: exholt  on  08/30  at  08:31 PM

Fair enough, exholt.

Comment #81: junk science  on  08/30  at  09:17 PM

someone who insists that a human who is standing right in front of them is a dumb beast who cannot possibly feel the same feelings they do

This strikes me as a very common human reaction to the strange “other” we despise yet secretly fear.  And I agree - people are weird.

Comment #82: shade  on  08/30  at  10:50 PM

Yup.  I think it was you, Amanda, a couple of years ago who finally pounded through my thick skull… or, more accurately, my quarter mile of self-hating indoctrination… that feminism is also the even more radical proposition that men are human beings too!

And yeah, for however much you can find satellite-fringer feminists who really actually hate men, man-hating goes right to the core of anti-feminism.  Weldon skirts the notion obviously (or she’d have no thesis) but the basic idea is that women are only superior beings because your role in life is to bind yourselves to men in order to “rehabilitate” us.  Or at least keep us from completely trashing the place.

Allegedly you can track the decision to English Puritans about 250 years ago.  The tricky part is that, according to the historian Edmund Letes, handing over moral authority to women was the first time women were given any role in public politics at all.  And so, naturally, having been excluded completely from the political arena they put a lot of energy into it.  With the result, Letes adds dryly, that (beginning with Puritan men, no less) men felt free to drink and fornicate.  (Previously they’d chaffed at but generally submitted to the much older tradition that women were almost completely amoral and so men were responsible for their own chastity and morality.)

Cool post, Amanda.  Thank you!

figleaf

Comment #83: figleaf  on  08/31  at  01:07 AM

No, only superior people can handle the ineffable with any kind of ease.

Oh, right, the old “you ladies are inferior because you’re really superior” thing. That one’s so shopworn you can see daylight through the weave, Hector.

Men-can’t-talk-about-their-feelings is bullshit for, you’re the woman, so you do all the emotional work here. Speaking from experience, nothing gets a man to Talk About The Relationship faster than being a woman who absolutely refuses to bring up The Relationship.

Comment #84: mythago  on  08/31  at  01:41 AM

There’s a whole category of normal conversational sounds that I’d probably transcribe as “huh” or “hm” but which are, now that I think about it, basically grunting.

Okay, that’s weird.

Comment #85: Cavity Lee  on  08/31  at  02:43 AM

Most of the “I am listening” sounds are grunts, aren’t they?  You know, person A rattles on for a while and pauses to check that person B is listening, and person B makes a noise that means “I know you’re talking, and that an actual reply is not at this time required.”
The great advantage of these noises is that it’s impossible to tell if the person is actually paying attention, or just grunting at the expectant pauses.

Comment #86: Ledasmom  on  08/31  at  10:29 AM

exholt, I don’t know why you have to apologize for this - weathering the occasional passing chat about hilariously bad dates, or being available for a friend in a super-crisis where nobody knows the tactful thing to say anyway, are both normal social expectations - but the constant rehashing of relationship talk to people outside said relationship strikes me as being about as interesting and publicly relevant as when a new parent wants to commandeer every conversation and turn it into a description about how little McKenzie can blow spit bubbles now but won’t eat sweet potato. The only people it’s interesting to are people who are in a similar state, and only then if there’s some expectation that the conversation will become reciprocal. Of course we indulge our friends with babies - or at least I do - just as we indulge our friends with new or newly problematic SOs - or at least I try to - but it’s kind of incumbent on them to shake themselves out of it eventually and return to topics of mutual interest. I especially feel this way about flirtation - I have a friend who for a long time would happily cite each and every time she made eye contact with a certain young man every day, for weeks. It took me a while to hm and um and hold the phone away from my ear for a while so I could go get a cup of coffee before she realized she was making everyone nuts and restrained herself to one or two substantive updates a week.

Comment #87: purpleshoes  on  08/31  at  10:48 AM

It also occurs to me that without harmful stereotypes about male inability to communicate more of my female friends could just ask their male partners what the heck is going on and spend less time trying to make me guess. I’m just saying, feminism has a cure for everything.

Comment #88: purpleshoes  on  08/31  at  11:23 AM

She makes me wonder this.  If men won’t care about my sexual pleasure or do half of the domestic and childcare work or appreciate my intelligence, then why would I want them to commit to me?  If they’re all as bad she claims, then isn’t a good thing that they won’t stick around too long?

Comment #89: bananacat  on  08/31  at  12:22 PM

“People. People are weird.”

Generally, I agree; but per a recent country song, “People are Crazy”.

For some reason I find that particular song, though I don’t care for much country, a guilty pleasure sort of thing.

Comment #90: helen w. h.  on  08/31  at  01:03 PM

Maybe late August is just the right time to dump this kind of crap on the public.  A blogged-about article from that lovely conservative rag City Journal:

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_4_darwinist_dating.html

Some commentary:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/08/love-in-a-time-of-feminism.html#more

and

http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/08/28/the-menaissance-and-its-dickscontents/

Comment #91: Lance Uppercut  on  08/31  at  02:59 PM

Chet (91):

I’m married to a woman, though, and it’s our needs upon which I reflect,

Without, somehow, managing to consider your mutual needs, because apparently you haven’t any.

But the relationship doesn’t exist.

Be sure to tell your wife that.

Comment #92: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/31  at  05:13 PM

Chet: One of my most respected friends has been with her SO since she was 16 and he was 15 (she’s old enough to be my mom, or close, and I just turned 30). They’re stunningly close, blissfully happy and utterly devoted to each other, seriously, one of those couples that everyone envies.

Wanna know one of the things they both credit their long relationship to? The skill they developed of looking at a) what was good for her, b) what was good for him and c) what was good for the relationship. Yup. That was exactly how she explained it to me: that sometimes something is not optimal for her or for him but would strengthen the relationship and therefore they did it; and the corollary, that sometimes earlier on they made choices that were, theoretically, good for her or good for him, but not great for the relationship, and they consistently realized in hindsight that those decisions were mistakes.

So ... just sayin’. The fact that you, personally, do not find this framing particularly helpful in your relationship doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s garbage.

Comment #93: kristin  on  09/01  at  04:17 AM
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