Good grief.

For the record, a LOT of people predicted the downturn.

They just didn’t all have the capital to invest in the inevitable.

Brilliant!

Dick.

I actually consider currency speculation a pretty unethical way to become a billionaire. That said, I don’t know that it’s more unethical than all the other ways people become billionaires. So there’s 100 billionaires on the Republican said, and two or three billionaires on the Democratic side, but our billionaires are TEH EVIL. Sure.

Also, I’ve noticed that blaming George Soros has become a real talking point, particularly the idea that he “controls” the economy, and methinks there’s a bit of a dog whistle going on here. Especially when the talking head is saying the fault for the entire collapse lies with George Soros and Chuck Schumer pulling the strings.

Socrates was the asshole version of Socrates.

Soros is only the 29th richest person. The Waltons, the Sauds, Michael Bloomberg all have more money, but even Bill Gates, at 40 billion dollars, couldn’t dent the world economy. I don’t trust the rich, but individually any one of them is just a drop in the lake. Wingnuts might as well just go ahead and blame the Illuminati, Freemasons, New World Order. They’ll have more fun and they’ll make as much sense.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/10/billionaires-2009-richest-people_George-Soros_L9II.html

Also, I’ve noticed that blaming George Soros has become a real talking point, particularly the idea that he “controls” the economy, and methinks there’s a bit of a dog whistle going on here. Especially when the talking head is saying the fault for the entire collapse lies with George Soros and Chuck Schumer pulling the strings.

And did you know that Jews conspire via a ringtone that Gentiles can’t hear?

I’m so glad that we live in an America that has fully turned its back on bigotry in general and specifically anti-Semitism, because otherwise, I might get the impression that they were trying to make Soros into some sort of evil International Jew operating in the shadows, who secretly controls the entire world for some nefarious Jewish reason we stupid gentiles are not able to see and comprehend until it’s too late.

‘Cause if we didn’t know that America no longer has any bigotry, it’s easy to see how somebody might mistake that kind of talk about Soros and other Jews as some sort of ridiculous, bigoted, but time-honored distraction from the complicity of other parties in bringing about our economic problems.  And the world has already been down that bloody path several times before…

Shh! We don’t talk about that stuff in mixed company.

Seriously, though. It’s a particularly silent dog whistle because lots of people don’t know George Soros is Jewish and some people don’t know Chuck Schumer is Jewish, but to even consider what someone might be getting at with a statement like that, you have to know that both of them are Jewish. So most people are going “Wuh?”

I think you need a new tag for this—“Batshit crazy” really doesn’t do it justice. Perhaps something along the lines of “Super-duper-mega-what-the-holy-fuck-batshit-crazy.”

That must be why Rupert Murdoch lost half his fortune—so no one could accuse him of controlling the economy.

some people don’t know Chuck Schumer is Jewish,

The kind of people who care intently about this sort of thing have a heuristic that a name like Schanything indicates Jewishness.

I saw this Fox & Friends segment this morning (don’t ask, I’m a masochist and sometimes like to see what the enemy is saying).  I felt like I was on acid.  Fox News Channel has always been pretty blatantly biased, but they’ve gone so far overboard since the election that they now just come across like actual crazy people.  I don’t even get that angry anymore, I just keel over laughing my ass off at the notion that anybody could possibly view this putrid network as anything remotely close to a credible news source.

And while I have issues with almost all of the TV news organizations on some level, Fox News really is a special animal.  They’ve become the broadcast version of WorldNutDaily, and make no real apologies for the over the top ridiculous crap they’re broadcasting of late.  Like that Glenn Beck show a few weeks ago where that asstard started crying on the air because he’s “scared for his country” under Obama.  I’m waiting for one of the idiots to call the president “Maobama” on the air.

But this morning… wow.  They actually compared liberals, Democrats, and the Obama Administration to the Gambino crime family.  And they brought in a real live former wiseguy to nod and smile as they made their argument.

Edward R. Murrow must be quivering in his grave. These folks are making the yellow journalism barons of the early 20th century seem like honest newsmen.

Besides, Barbara Ehrenreich already revealed her inside knowledge that it was socialists who engineered the economic collapse. http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/19204

The kind of people who care intently about this sort of thing have a heuristic that a name like Schanything indicates Jewishness.

Well, some people were convinced FDR was Jewish, when he was about as WASP-y as they come. That -velt at the end could have easily been -feld.

I was a little surprised that anyone wouldn’t know Chuck Schumer was Jewish, but it came up recently in another forum and several people didn’t know. Basically, there are two kinds of people who are pretty up on who’s Jewish or who might likely be Jewish - Jews and anti-Semites. But I actually didn’t realize Soros was Jewish until sometime last year.

My dog shat on the carpet.  I had to call in a carpet cleaner to fix the mess.  That carpet cleaner got me for $300!  He made a killing.  Then my dog went and shat on the carpet again.  So here comes Mr. Carpet Cleaner Man, with that fat smug look on his face, ready to collect another $300.  Fuck him.  I know what’s going on here.  The Carpet Cleaner Man has been making my dog shit on the carpet.

Also, George Soros is fat.

lots of people don’t know George Soros is Jewish

Oh come on. The people who complain about George Soros, those who actually care about George Soros, I would say most of them are aware of it.

Wait, Soros is Jewish?

I also want to point out the awesome journalistic head-snapper Kilmeade pulled off there - he starts off with “I don’t know if he orchestrated it” and then, after a brief pause, answers his own musing: “So, he’s in control…”

I need a neck brace now. Thanks for nothing, Killer.

Also, I’ve noticed that blaming George Soros has become a real talking point, particularly the idea that he “controls” the economy, and methinks there’s a bit of a dog whistle going on here. Especially when the talking head is saying the fault for the entire collapse lies with George Soros and Chuck Schumer pulling the strings.

Don’t make any mistake.  This is tangential Jew-bashing at best.  They’ll happily drag on William Kristol and David Frum (both Jews) to agree with it all.  And if someone calls them on being anti-Semetic, they’ll happily announce their glorious support for the next bombing run by the nation of Israel to refresh their street creds.  :-p

This is an attack on “limousine liberals”.  You line up all the class traitors - the Kennedys, the Soroses, the Bidens, the rich Hollywood types - and you blame the whole mess on them to play the populist card.  I mean, its the same basic game.  Blame the X for your troubles.  But you don’t have to go after any religious or social group anymore.  You can just go after “liberals” and make it mean whatever you want it to mean.  Tar your enemies with the word to stamp a big bullseye on them.  Then let your crazied, ignorant public go to town.

Black Bloc, I think you’re missing my point. It’s a dog whistle. Everyone complaining about him knows he’s Jewish and knows exactly what they’re doing by accusing him of orchestrating this, and the segment of the audience that is susceptible to the message knows Soros is Jewish. But enough people don’t know that he’s Jewish that you’re not going to get an outcry of “anti-Semitism!” It flies under the radar for the general public.

Zifnab, I disagree. They haven’t called in the other “limousine liberals.” They could, but they haven’t. That makes the Jew-baiting more than tangential.

Don’t make any mistake.  This is tangential Jew-bashing at best.  They’ll happily drag on William Kristol and David Frum (both Jews) to agree with it all.

Not a counterargument. Anti-Semites have always had a handful of sympathetic Jews to use as mouthpieces.

This is an attack on “limousine liberals”.  You line up all the class traitors

I’ll give you “both/and.”

Actually, Zifnab kind of proves my point about how this flies under the radar. Even someone who recognizes it as anti-Semitic perceives that as “tangential.” (Not picking on you, Zifnab, just saying.)

At the bottom of a Media Matters entry dealing with the already-batshit premise of comparing the Democratic party to a crime family

Hey, that ain’t batshit! Except by focusing just on the Dems, they’re only looking at half a family tree.

George Soros may not be the sole cause of the economic collapse, but he’s not somebody I feel that comfortable going out of my way to defend, either. Not that you really were, Auguste—it’s just that if blaming Soros does stay a talking point for Repubs, it’s going to be a natural liberal reaction to spin their wheels rising to his defense. (Which might even be part of the strategy behind making him one, who knows.)

I say this only because of my admittedly irrational prejudice that all billionaires have sold their souls to get where they are.

Asked about the havoc his currency speculation caused to Far Eastern economies in the crash of 1997, Soros replied: “As a market participant, I don’t need to be concerned with the consequences of my actions.”

He has troublingly deep connections with the U.S. Military-Industrial complex (albeit that head of the Imperial Hydra which didn’t like Bush-Cheney because they were letting the cat out of the bag, rather than work from behind the scenes for American hegemony).

Ostensibly aimed at building up a “civil society”, these initiatives were designed to weaken the existing political structures and pave the way for eastern Europe’s eventual colonisation by global capital. Soros now claims, with characteristic immodesty, that he was responsible for the “Americanisation” of eastern Europe…

How nice. I’m sure that’s what they always wanted.

The last thing the liberal movement in America needs right now is to be rallying even more around hoary old liberal-centrist-pluto-democratic demigods like Soros. Me, I don’t mind one bit if he, or any other billionaire out there, did go Galt.

Why can’t wingnuts understand that it is possible to understand how things work without actually determining their behavior from a command and control standpoint?

Maybe that explains their problem with Darwin: he described the workings of a system based on observation.  That’s too sticky - it simply must have someone controlling the whole thing, it just has to.

Flip side: Soros described the workings of a system based on his observations, and predicted the results.  That’s too complicated - he simply must have been controlling the whole thing!

I don’t think it’s antisemitic.  I’ve followed their batshittery on Soros for some time now and this thread is the first that I’ve heard he was Jewish.  They hate him because he’s liberal, not because he’s Jewish.  He disproves the notion that finance and social conscience can’t be reconciled.

I’m with chingona—this is Elders of Zion stuff, and I think the left seriously underestimates how much of this is still floating around on the right.  Those wildly popular “Left Behind” books?  Much of the plot revolves around international bankers, all of whom just happen to be Jewish. 

Michael Lind wrote about working for Pat Robertson in Up from Conservatism where Robertson had him just do a search-and-replace from “Jewish bankers” to “international bankers” to update one of his books.

Believe me, to right-wingers “international bankers” means Jews.  Full stop.

I’ve followed their batshittery on Soros for some time now and this thread is the first that I’ve heard he was Jewish.

Really?  You must have missed them talking about Soros collaborating with the Nazis to survive the Holocaust while he was in hiding.  It’s been a big talking point for a while now.

“Basically, there are two kinds of people who are pretty up on who’s Jewish or who might likely be Jewish”

Or anyone who lives in the suburbs of NYC, like N. Jersey, Rochester or LI. If there’s a Temple in town Jewish folks will be active in the schools or politics, the schools get out for Roshashna? it’s on the radar screen.

like the asshole version of Socrates.

I want that on my tombstone.

Yeah, Mnemosyne, I did miss that!  I’m obviously out of the wingnut loop.

Black Bloc, I think you’re missing my point. It’s a dog whistle.

Ah yes. My misinterpretation comes from you saying it was a ‘pretty silent’ one, which I assumed meant it was a *bad* dog whistle (as in, the dogs don’t hear it) instead of a good one (as in, the humans don’t hear it).

I’m obviously out of the wingnut loop.

I would consider that fortunate…

They hate him because he’s liberal, not because he’s Jewish.

For the people we are talking about, there is no significant distinction.

Lawrence Auster:

I have said before that when Jews declare that as Jews they are required to strive for open borders, when as Jews they demand U.S. national suicide, that allows critics to criticize Jews as Jews, and not just as generic “liberals.”

David Duke:

The purposely-induced antagonism between the sexes divides White Americans when it is more important than ever that we are united. The wedge driven between White men and women often divides our vote and helps minority and pro-minority candidates to win elections. Women are deceived into voting for minority candidates and liberal causes in higher percentages than men do. In spite of the wide difference between the White and Black race in the status and well-being of women, the feminist movement has aligned itself with Black “civil-rights” objectives. They’ve been told that the “White male patriarchy” is the enemy, causing resentments and conflicts between the sexes that could prove fatal for our people unless repaired. Many women’s groups openly campaign for Jewish and Black causes, blessed by accolades of the Jewish high priestesses of feminism. But when White women form organizations exclusively for the advancement of our European heritage, they face condemnation.

Remember, we are talking about people who think one billionaire like <strike>Lex Luthor</strike> George Soros can crash the world economy. This is New World Order-style conspiracy theory. Everything they dislike is united as one: the Jews control the liberals who control the black people.

Not a counterargument. Anti-Semites have always had a handful of sympathetic Jews to use as mouthpieces.

There is a strange divergence here, though.  The hardcore anti-semitic states rights Libertarian whackjobs aren’t precisely ideological allies with neoconservatives.

I’m talking about a good portion of the vocal Ron Paul supporters out there (not the stupid college fratboys who got woodies after reading Ayn Rand for the first time) in the shadows.  These folks really despise all Jews, regardless of whether their name is George Soros or Paul Wolfowitz.  Like progressives, they oppose most of the War on Terror, but for entirely different reasons.  These folks hated John McCain because they saw him as overly sympathetic to Israel, and for them, both Obama and McCain were completely undesirable candidates.

They can’t stand the neoconservative movement, which is very sympathetic to Israel, and has quite a few prominent neoconservative Jewish people as prominent members.

And it all comes down to Israel.  There is no absolute left-right dichotomy on the issue of Israel.  Many staunch Republicans are as stridently pro-Israel as many staunch Democrats.  And discussion of that issue is dicey, because it can get highly emotional - Mike Malloy was mentioned in this post, and he has discussed how difficult it is to discuss the matter, because criticisms of Israeli retaliation against Palestinians can often get conflated with anti-semitism, which may or may not be true.  I do not question Malloy’s progressive credentials, nor do I find myself wondering whether or not he’s anti-semitic.  And yet, he has been very critical of Israel’s actions, and has been branded an anti-semite by many in the neoconservative movement.

I’m not sure which hand Fox is trying to play here, or whether or not they’re using Soros as a racist dog whistle.  Some of their most prominent contributers are stridently pro-Israel neoconservatives - Kristol, Krauthammer, and Frum come to mind.  And the network’s bias has always been heavily pro-Israel in discussing the Middle East conflict.

And the hardcore anti-semitic groups out there despise Fox News precisely for this reason - they conflate most national Democrats and Republicans into one group, saying that both major national parties are beholden to the will of the hated “International Bankers”.

So I’m not sure what the angle was here with Fox.  Soros the hated international Jew is possible, I suppose, but this would be coming from a network that has quite a few other folks they support that many in the anti-semitic movement would label the same as Soros, despite being allied with the Republican Party.

is New World Order-style conspiracy theory. Everything they dislike is united as one: the Jews control the liberals who control the black people.

Except most people who would truly subscribe to that theory would also subscribe to paleoconservative whackjob Alex Jones’ notions that George Bush brought down the WTC by remote control on 9/11 to set off the GWOT as a favor to his Jewish masters.

The hardcore anti-semites don’t just hate the liberals, they also hate the neoconservatives.

And did you know that Jews conspire via a ringtone that Gentiles can’t hear?

It’s true; we did this experiment where it was discovered that I could hear tones of up to 21 kHz whereas most of my gentile friends topped out around 18 kHz.

Oh shi….

@ seeker ... you’re not the dog that hears at this frequency. They never actually refer to his Jewishness. But the people who care, know.

I actually disagree with you that Soros is evidence that financial and social conscience can be reconciled. Or, I think it’s unclear or complicated. If he’s giving his money away, I guess I’d prefer it go to the kinds of things he gives it to, but I’m not really sure that balances out the havoc that is wrecked by currency speculation (not that he’s the only currency speculator, just that having lived in countries where the currency collapsed, it’s really shitty).

In case anyone is unclear, my point is not that criticizing Soros is anti-Semitic or that Soros himself must be defended at all costs, but that accusing him of controlling the world economy and personally engineering the collapse is anti-Semitic, especially if you somehow always fail to mention the many, many non-Jewish people who were also involved in the decisions that led up to this, but do manage to throw in the Jewish Senator from New York.

“The hardcore anti-semites don’t just hate the liberals, they also hate the neoconservatives.”

...and they hate Michael Steele too, as well as Obama…

I don’t think a dogwhistle like this is aimed as the most hard core, who are completely George-Lincoln-Rockwell over the top and basically unreachable.

This is for the ones who have that racial/social/economic “discomfort” about people who are not WASPs, but who aren’t necessarily overtly bigoted (not knowingly at least), and certainly don’t think of themselves as bigots.

My dad is one of those.  He doesn’t support the skinhead neo-Nazis, and wouldn’t refuse to do business with a Jew or a POC, etc.  He’ll talk to anybody, and treat them with courtesy. 

But he still has most of his racist upbringing intact and floating around in there somewhere.  Every once in a while (just this week there was one) he’ll say some crap that he’s heard on KFI or CNBC or Faux, add his twist to it, and BAM! — there you are staring at a nice little racist/bigoted/sexist/anti-LGBT turd he just popped out.

They know their audience, and I’m sure the people at the top are perfectly aware of the ramifications…

So I’m not sure what the angle was here with Fox.  Soros the hated international Jew is possible, I suppose, but this would be coming from a network that has quite a few other folks they support that many in the anti-semitic movement would label the same as Soros, despite being allied with the Republican Party.

Fox has in the past invited Andy Martin, a notorious anti-Semite. They later said “we obviously didn’t do enough research on who the guest was.” I take that to mean that the station is primarily concerned with taking shotgun blasts at Democrats, with the plan of non-apologizing later if anyone else is hit by the scattershot. Kilmeade couldn’t resist mentioning Barney Frank as well.

The hardcore anti-semites don’t just hate the liberals, they also hate the neoconservatives.

Look at their specific critiques of the Jewish neo-cons; they are insufficiently conservative, liberal agent provocateurs, Bolshevik spies.

DTG, I think you’re making the mistake of conflating someone’s views on Israel with their views on Jews.  There are lots of “supporters” of Israel whose views I, personally, consider anti-Semitic (like insisting Israel must occupy the entire territory of the Biblical kingdoms Judea and Samaria because it’s the only way to bring about Armageddon, at which point all the Jews who don’t accept Jesus go to hell). Christians who claim to “love” Jews but who want to use Jewish lives a stepping stone to the Apocalypse are not my friend.

There is anti-Semitism on the far right and on the far left. These people are not necessarily political allies of each other and the convoluted twists and turns they do to connect the dots of the conspiracy they imagine strain logic and reason. All they have in common is they hate Jews.

Chingona beat me to it while I was logging in.

It seems a neat trick, but “pro”-Israel and anti-semitic go together quite easily for a whole host of conservative Christians and there’s a handful of right-wing Jews, both in the U.S. and Israel who are more than happy to accept support from the same Christians whose eschatology requires the destruction of the Jewish people.

There is anti-Semitism on the far right and on the far left.

I like to see it as the far right hates international financiers because they’re (supposed to be) Jews, while the far left hates Jews because they’re (supposed to be) international financiers. They start from opposite ends and meet in the middle because of a handful of pretty dumb ethno-racial stereotypes and conspiracy theories (which have been mostly developped on the far right, and distributed in the far left in an attempt to coopt their organisations, most of the time).

I’m not saying that it’s any better in the end. But when I’ve been confronted with anti-semitism in left-wing circles my work only needed to be based in dispelling the idea that Jews somehow magically have a stranglehold on international finances, whereas with the right-wing I’m almost certain that even if they were shown not to be financiers and speculators, the right-wingers would find another reason (most likely religious-based) to hate them.

Also, before Stalin I think most Eastern European Jews would have much preferred their fate under the left-wing than the right-wing. Both the Bolsheviks and the anarchists under Makhno worked hard to eradicate the endemic Russian and Ukrainian pogroms, while the Whites were actually spreading rumors that the whole Reds thing was a plot by Judeo-Masons to destroy Russia and the Slavic peoples.

It seems a neat trick, but “pro”-Israel and anti-semitic go together quite easily for a whole host of conservative Christians and there’s a handful of right-wing Jews, both in the U.S. and Israel who are more than happy to accept support from the same Christians whose eschatology requires the destruction of the Jewish people.

There’s also “anti-Israel, but pro-jewish.” Which includes plenty of american jews who are creeped the hell out by Israel’s policies.

I, for one, am pro-jewish (we have bagels. your counterarguments are void), pro-Israeli (I have family there, and am fully sympathetic to individuals) but anti-Israel. Mostly because Israel has the same problem we do of violent reactionary thugs getting elected because their core demographic (a minority, but not insignificant) turns out in droves.

Look at their specific critiques of the Jewish neo-cons; they are insufficiently conservative, liberal agent provocateurs, Bolshevik spies.

Good point on the Andy Martin thing… but regarding Jewish neocons being insufficiently conservative, keep in mind, Bill Kristol (whose father Irving is considered the founder of the neoconservative movement) and Charles Krauthammer are two regular Fox News contributers, both Jewish neocons, and I’ve never heard anyone from that network ever make the claim that either one is “insufficiently conservative”.

My main point is that while both William Kristol and Pat Buchanan are both considered to be staunchly on the Right, they have extremely divergent worldviews on a whole host of issues, from the War on Terror, to America’s relationship with Israel, to what sort of trade relations we should foster.

NAFTA is another issue that comes to mind where there isn’t a clear-cut left-right dichotomy.  And immigration is an area in which the paleocon whackos thought George W. Bush was just short of treasonous.

Wait, Soros is Jewish?

Worse, he’s European Jewish.

Soros essentially observed “the market is made up a whole bunch of people following each other” and proceeded to make billions off of never forgetting that.  Simple in concept, difficult to do in practice - which is a good definition of most genius ideas.

@Karpad

I’m right there with you, but I don’t even bother with the anti-Israel part. I think anti-Likud and pro comprehensive peace sums it up fairly well.

I used to rant fairly regularly in the comments section at Sadly No about lefties who do the right wingers dirty work for them by accepting the pro-Israel= pro-Likud propaganda, but I get queasy when I wade in there these days.

NAFTA is another issue that comes to mind where there isn’t a clear-cut left-right dichotomy.

I think the issue is that if you’re looking at it as either pro-NAFTA or anti-NAFTA you’re losing a lot of the crux of the argument. NAFTA, like most agreements, is a compromise between various positions, so obviously there are arguments for and against that have little to do with each other.

First: the entirety of the Left is anti-NAFTA. Social-democrats hates it because it limits the powers of the state to make pro-environmental or pro-labor laws. Far leftists hates it because it’s capitalists organizing with each other internationally to crush the working class, and we only approve of international cooperation between workers and anti-capitalists.

The centrists (liberals) approve of it because it is basically an economically liberal agreement. The point is to lift barriers to trade, which is pretty much the liberal viewpoint (n’en deplaise the center-left people who call themselves liberals in America when they tend to have a lot more in common with social-democracy because ‘socialism’ is a dirty word in the USA).

The ‘moderate’ right (neo-conservatives) approve of it because free trade is good for whoever is on top, and the economic superpower (at least for now… In Before Chinese Takeover!) is the United States, ergo free trade is beneficial to the United States. Their approval of NAFTA is very selective, however. Sure, they approve of it when it’s to strike down Canadian laws to favor Canadian media content… Somehow, though, they didn’t seem to think these contracts were binding with regard to Canadian lumber.

The far right disapproves of anything that says ‘international’ or ‘cooperation between countries’ on it. For them, Canada or Mexico are potential enemies. Only the United States should be supported at any given time by true patriots.

I like to see it as the far right hates international financiers because they’re (supposed to be) Jews, while the far left hates Jews because they’re (supposed to be) international financiers.

That’s a pretty clever formulation and certainly captures a piece of the dynamic. I think it’s a little more complicated than that.

There seems to be a big overlap between people who buy into conspiracy theories in general (of whatever political stripe) and anti-Semitism. I’m not entirely sure why the Jews, of all groups, serve this purpose better than any other group, but if you have a conspiracy, putting the Jews in charge of it seems to be the thing to do.

Just once I’d like to see a conspiracy theory that says white Christian men control the United States government and financial institutions and manipulate the levers of power for their own advantage. Just once before I die. Pretty please.

But more seriously, and more broadly, there is a long history of people in whatever group sees itself on the vanguard of social progress starting out by sympathizing with the Jews for their historic oppression at the hands of whoever the old boss was, then getting frustrated with and turning on Jews when they don’t get sufficiently on board with the new boss. In particular, there is a long history of frustration at Jewish desire to remain Jewish.

It’s pretty UK-centric, but if you ever have time, you might want to check out That’s Funny, You Don’t Look Anti-Semitic by Steve Cohen, who died recently. It’s a history and anti-racist analysis of left anti-Semitism, published as a pamphlet in 1984 and republished on-line a few years ago.

I used to rant fairly regularly in the comments section at Sadly No about lefties who do the right wingers dirty work for them by accepting the pro-Israel= pro-Likud propaganda, but I get queasy when I wade in there these days.

I’d actually like to just throw away the terms “anti-Israel” and “pro-Israel.” We don’t talk about any other country in this way. Is the U.S. government “pro-Pakistan” or “anti-Pakistan” when it props up repressive, autocratic regimes to advance its military interests? Is someone who is critical of that relationship “pro-Pakistan” or “anti-Pakistan”? What is a country? Its people? Its government? Both? This anti- and pro- is nonsensical, but it’s so embedded in the way we talk about I/P that it’s hard to get away from.

Good point on the Andy Martin thing… but regarding Jewish neocons being insufficiently conservative, keep in mind, Bill Kristol (whose father Irving is considered the founder of the neoconservative movement) and Charles Krauthammer are two regular Fox News contributers, both Jewish neocons, and I’ve never heard anyone from that network ever make the claim that either one is “insufficiently conservative”.

No, but what I responded to was the observation that “The hardcore anti-semites don’t just hate the liberals, they also hate the neoconservatives.” Not that Fox News are all hardcore anti-Semites. When Jew-baiting paleoconservatives like Pat Buchanan criticize the neoconservatives, their ostensible liberalism is a common complaint.

@ Chingona

Your point is well taken, but I think Israel is a special, though not unique case because it’s very right to exist is a point of debate in many circles. There is a clear anti- (state of) Israel position that is separate from criticisms of Israeli policies, politics, or factions.

So I don’t mind saying I’m pro-Israel (I’m also pro-Kurdistan in much the same way) while vehemently opposed to many of their policies.

chingona : The same people who have conspiracy theories about the Jews have plenty of them about the Jesuits and the Vatican too… but yeah, point taken.

I thought the real secret conspiracy controlling the world was the Freemasons.  Or was it the Oddfellows?

The Dutch?

RobW, I think the Freemasons have an arrangement with the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, and the Illuminati where they all take turns controlling the world for three months out of the year…

RobW, I think the Freemasons have an arrangement with the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, and the Illuminati where they all take turns controlling the world for three months out of the year…

You got it all wrong man.

It’s a well known fact that there’s a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.

The Pentavirate consists of The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up.

Oh, I hated the Colonel with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face. “Oh, you’re gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!”

The Pentavirate consists of The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up.

TETSUP!

Too bad Mike Myers peaked with that film.

Well, some people were convinced FDR was Jewish, when he was about as WASP-y as they come. That -velt at the end could have easily been -feld.

I had a high school history teacher who always pronounced FDR’s last name as “Rosenfeld.” At the time I didn’t really get it, since I wasn’t really aware of the ways in which antisemitism and 1930s-era conservatism interacted. I just thought he was an idiot; there was a lot of other evidence to support that thesis, and I just added this bit to that pile.

Oh, and that teacher was intentionally mispronouncing FDR’s name in 1987-88, by the way. Kind of a long time to hold a grudge.

You know, you’re like the asshole version of Socrates.

Now I know what I want to be when I grow up.

Yesterday, I wrote:

Just once I’d like to see a conspiracy theory that says white Christian men control the United States government and financial institutions and manipulate the levers of power for their own advantage. Just once before I die. Pretty please.

Well, this is close enough. Thanks, Lula!

Out here on the West Coast, we sometimes have difficulty navigating the baroque (or Byzantine) anti- / Semitic / anti- / Zionist / anti- / Israeli / anti- / Jewish roadmap. Perhaps I mean to say that our heuristics are not refined for these purposes, or that our dog ears are ineffective, but I was not aware that Soros was Jewish. That realization, however, was not nearly as disconcerting as the questions I am now asking myself about my long-held antipathies toward international bankers. I like to tell myself that these beliefs are based on objective assessment and observation, but maybe I’m just a (blunt) tool of the Aryan establishment.

Ole O., just keep in mind that bankers are no more central to capitalism than speculators, bosses, police, soldiers, or lobbyists. And that Jews are not overrepresented in any of those groups. And that as “international bankers” is a code word for some, “capitalist pigs” will do nicely.

asdf—thanks for that…and although something tells me ‘capitalist pigs’ may carry some freight of its own, I think I like it anyway.