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Next entry: The Lone Star State Legislator stupid…it burns Previous entry: I suspect

Can our economic collapse cause more questions about sexist traditions?

EconomyFeminism

Here’s a piece that really benefits from being well-timed: “Two Months’ Salary” by Lee Gainer.  The concept is simple but pretty profound, in that it challenges a genuine sacred cow of our culture—-the engagement ring—-by showing a depressing display of what two months’ salary of various professions can buy when it comes to marking your newly acquired female property.  The message of the piece will resonate more now than it would have a year ago, and not because the nation has had a feminist awakening that allows people the intellectual and emotional space to think critically about wedding customs.  It’s the “two months’ salary” thing, an invention by DeBeers to expedite the channeling of money from people who work for every penny up the chain into the pockets of the owners of DeBeers.  Now we’re in a depression and thrift is already seeing a resurgence in popularity, and folks are more attuned to the obscenity of dropping that kind of money on a diamond ring, instead of saving it, or spending on something that’s more of an investment in your future.  (Though I suppose that an extravagant gift like that creates a debt that the giver might consider an investment.)  Could the economic realization lead to a more feminist understanding of the problems of the engagement ring?  I think it’s possible.

Dana asks the sticking question:

As Conor Friedersdorf once wrote:

  In a way, it’s bizarre that women given engagement rings don’t respond by saying something like, “I’d love to marry you.” (Beat.) “And thank you so much for this ring. (Eyes welling up.) I cherish the thought behind it, and I’ll keep it forever if you’d like. (Happy tears.) On the other hand, we could take it back and use the money to spend several months together in coastal Italy.

Or couples (of any gender) could mutually decide to mark their engagement with an affordable weekend holiday, or the mutual exchange of meaningful gifts, and then call their friends and family to “make it official.” In a time of recession, the “two months’ salary” tradition just makes less and less sense.


It’s unsurprising that Conor felt the need to couch his critique in ridiculous, insulting romantic imagery, because that reassures the audience that he’s questioning the value of the ring, not the value of romance itself.  Which is to say, he wants it to be clear he’s not questioning the patriarchal implications, just the financial ones—-the role of the woman is still passivity, and she still has the job of being the person who runs everything while also being way too emotional to be taken seriously as the person who makes the final decision.  The whole fiction of romance is a way to claim that erotic love cannot be separated from oppressive gender norms, and therefore questioning romantic traditions that turn women into chattel feels way too much like questioning love itself, and no one wants to be that asshole.  Well, except me.  I’ll be that asshole. 

Why is the engagement ring so popular?  I’m sure that people who filter everything through an anti-capitalist lens will say that advertisers convinced us it was, and so it became that.  And really, there’s a lot of truth to that—-if you put something up as a status symbol, people will baa and run after it, no matter how ridiculous it seems if you take a step back for a moment.  It’s relevant to me that the engagement ring rose in popularity as America became more urbanized.  Think about it: For rural and small town people, people already know who you’re marrying and what he does for a living and where he falls in the pecking order.  For urban people, the engagement ring substitutes for having that knowledge.  It does so in stark terms that are hard to misrepresent—-size (of the diamond) is everything.  Form follows function faithfully in engagement rings.

The other reason engagement rings are popular is that they have goodies for everyone involved in the giant waste of money.  For men, it’s obvious that marking someone with a symbol of your status is a pretty blunt way of saying that now her esteem and status depends on you, which has got to feel powerful.  For women, you get to have other women enact what is actually a form of professional jealousy.  Women are socialized from the crib to be man-pleasers, and if you please a man well enough that he picks you to leave the wretched swarm of unpicked single women, then you did a good job.  Therefore your colleagues in the profession of man-pleasing are going to do what colleagues have always done when one of their own makes good—-congratulate them, often fawningly, while seething with jealousy. 

Trips to Italy where you have nothing to do but enjoy the culture and each other’s company pales in comparison to this for many, many people.

And really, if you start questioning the engagement ring, questioning other traditions is close behind.  And then you end up questioning the value of the institution of marriage itself, and start asking if an institution that was set up more to oppress women than celebrate love is something that can be salvaged.  That sort of questioning makes people nervous, so even starting down the road by saying, “The engagement ring is like stamping your butt with your loyalty to the capitalist patriarchy,” and people are going to think you’re straight on the road to hell.  But fuck ‘em.  The trip to Italy would be a lot more fun.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:20 PM • (99) Comments

We didn’t bother with an engagement ring because I find them obscene, and I preferred to be solvent.  Wacky of us, huh?

Comment #1: Eileen  on  04/09  at  08:06 PM

You hate love. Obviously.  wink

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/09  at  08:11 PM

I realize this is not the point of the article, but if you compare the rings for A-List Actor with Truck Driver, it makes the A-List Actor rings look tacky.  All of the rings are very fancy and very pretty.  Even the fast food cook can afford some beautiful rings.  When you see it laid out like that, it really makes the bigger-is-better meme look uncouth and even shameful.

My ring cost roughly half a week’s salary (pizza delivery), and I never wore it except for special occasions.  The relatively low value of the ring also meant there was no fight over it when the relationship went sour. 

The idea that a ring should cost X dollars is certainly DeBeers fault, as is the idea that a ring is necessary at all, but I wonder why it worked so well.  It really didn’t take them that long at all to make a fancy engagement ring a top priority for not only giddy married couples, but basically everyone around them.  And they were able to do this in multiple cultures all over the world with relative ease.

Comment #3: Kyso K  on  04/09  at  08:19 PM

Funny thing is, all of those rings look tacky and overblown to me. Every last one of them. Even setting aside the horrible social ills they cause and the patriarchal symbolism of the engagement ring itself, I just find diamonds ostentatiously boring. Give me a stone with some color to it. Even if it’s stupidly expensive, at least looking at it won’t put me to sleep.

A trip to Italy does sound a whole lot more fun. In fact, why get married at all when you can just throw a party then go on vacation? It’s much less stressful that way.

Comment #4: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  04/09  at  08:37 PM

the horrible social ills they cause

That’ll teach me to proofread better. By “they,” I mean “diamond mining.”

Comment #5: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  04/09  at  08:39 PM

Kyso, maybe it has something to do with the narrative that getting married is like winning some sort of prize.  Congratulations!  You landed a husband!  Here’s something to show for it until you get to throw a big party for your Very Special Day.

Which is profoundly unromantic.  But a great deal of traditionally romantic gestures are.

Comment #6: Tanglethis  on  04/09  at  08:42 PM

Hey, I’m not saying I’d buy a diamond ring, but some of those smaller ones are pretty nice.  When I was ring shopping I did make the attempt to go with the patriarchal flow and buy a diamond ring, and quickly gave up because holy living fuck, shopping for ethically mined diamonds is impossible for all but the most dedicated people.  Those fuckers at the jewelers will flat-out lie to you.  I like the sparklies, but the process of getting them makes me queasy.  I prefer to spend my vanity efforts acquiring pearls.

Comment #7: Kyso K  on  04/09  at  08:45 PM

I just visited the website and realized how few of the rings are gold.  Is that standard for engagement rings?  Diamonds get silver or white gold bands, wedding rings get the traditional gold?  I’ve never been a ring-wearer myself, but I remember being told by my mother (on the occasion of selecting a mandatory class ring in high school, and preferring white gold) that she knew people who’d strayed from the traditional gold wedding or engagement ring and were very sorry.  I never knew what that meant.

Comment #8: Tanglethis  on  04/09  at  08:47 PM

Maybe their relatives bitched at them until they wanted to choke people.  That’s what happened with my non-traditional ring.

Comment #9: Kyso K  on  04/09  at  08:50 PM

Ha.  We weren’t even going to get an engagement ring, except that they were having this special at the jewelry store when we went to get our matched set of absolutely plain thin gold bands where they threw in an engagement ring for $199.  And I’ve been needing a gold ring with clear stones (I already have a silver one, jewelry coordination, you know) for EVER.  So we got it.  Then we both slapped on our best interview suits and nipped off to the courthouse.  Then we went out to dinner and then hit a bar afterwards and went home.  And with all the money we saved doing it that way, we’re gonna spend a week in Vegas during the World Series of Poker tournaments!  YEAAHH!

Comment #10: Lisa KS  on  04/09  at  09:06 PM

Tanglethis—I had a chemistry teacher in high school who told us that we should all make sure to get platinum, not gold.  So, I dunno.

Comment #11: rowmyboat  on  04/09  at  09:07 PM

shopping for ethically mined diamonds is impossible for all but the most dedicated people

Buy a Canadian diamond.  “Polar Ice” is one of the brands available.  There will probably be some other brands once the Mines in Saskatchewan and Ontario start coming online.

Comment #12: KeithM  on  04/09  at  09:09 PM

Amanda, you rock. (Pun maybe a little bit intended.) I agree with every word of this, and it’s refreshing to read. My acquaintances who are safely married don’t get how I can feel committed to my partner without a gaudy blood diamond getting in my way every time I bathe the dogs or lift weights or play outside. Or, for that matter, without a piece of paper saying the state of Florida recognizes our partnership. If my boyfriend bought me a diamond engagement ring, that would mean he knew absolutely nothing about me. Totally with you on the anti-romance stance, too. Romantic gestures make me nauseous.

Comment #13: F. McGee  on  04/09  at  09:12 PM

In fact, why get married at all when you can just throw a party then go on vacation?

I have some sympathy for the urge after going to my cousin’s wedding, the first of the grandkids on my mom’s side.  I realized how much my family had been hoping for such an occasion, and I had a moment of feeling bad that I can’t give that to them.  But only a moment, and then I realized they’ll live.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/09  at  09:34 PM

The thing that additionally blows my mind is the traditional wedding. I have known exactly one couple whose parents saved the standard “white wedding for everyone you’ve ever met” amount, then told the couple that they were on their own for paying for the wedding and by the way here is a check for the down payment on your house.

My husband has two daughters, and we’ve already talked about the day that they pop up and announce that we have to pay for the wedding. Ours was a quick flight to San Francisco, three nights at a Holiday Inn, and a civil ceremony during the period when gay weddings were still happening last year. Thousands for the girls? Not likely. Unless that Lottery win comes through, in which case I’m still more likely to go for the house payment than a one-shot party dress and inedible cake.

Comment #15: Lymis  on  04/09  at  09:37 PM

“I’ll be that asshole.”

while i usually hate “(blogger name) is the greatest” posts and the people who make them i think one is in order

Comment #16: anonlololol  on  04/09  at  09:47 PM

The two months’ salary rule caught on because people love arbitrary standards. Everybody knew that you were supposed to spend a lot of money on an engagement ring, but there was some ambiguity about what constituted a lot. So, some marketing genius at DeBeers decided to sell diamonds and peace of mind by supplying an arbitrary standard.

Comment #17: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  04/09  at  09:55 PM

For men, it’s obvious that marking someone with a symbol of your status is a pretty blunt way of saying that now her esteem and status depends on you, which has got to feel powerful.

Not two month’s salary worth of powerful though.  There was plenty of patriarchy before De Beers came up with the idea of the diamond engagement ring.

Comment #18: lemmy caution  on  04/09  at  09:56 PM

Say hello to my brother, Lisa KS; he’s dealing that tournament.  |=)


I like sparkly things; ergo, I like diamonds.  But I never want to get one and I’ll never give one, which is sad (b/c, *sparkly*), but okay, (b/c, ethics).

Comment #19: bomberE  on  04/09  at  10:09 PM

When I was in a mall jewelry store to get my watch a new band, I happened to run into an aggressive salesman who kept trying to show me rings for my girlfriend (she had just walked over to a clothes store). While I had the new band put on. he asked me if one ring wouldn’t look just wonderful on her and I said, “couldn’t I just mark her with my urine and leave it at that?”

Comment #20: mndean  on  04/09  at  10:23 PM

@anon: Agreed. I’m not the fawning type, but Amanda articulated exactly what I’ve been thinking about something that has been really bugging me lately.

@mndean: Ha! Awesome.

Comment #21: F. McGee  on  04/09  at  10:31 PM

While I had the new band put on. he asked me if one ring wouldn’t look just wonderful on her and I said, “couldn’t I just mark her with my urine and leave it at that?”

HAhahahahaha! hehehehehehe. That was teh funny. Please describe his facial expression after you said that.

Comment #22: UltraMagnus  on  04/09  at  10:36 PM

True, lemmy, but I really do think there was a vacuum caused by urbanization that the engagement ring helped fill.  Patriarchy has, throughout most of history, been enforced by the sort of social pressures that are easiest to exert in small communities where everyone knows each other.  Lose that and something else has to step in.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/09  at  10:38 PM

I was in Japan with my girlfriend when we wandered into a jewelry store, just window-shopping mostly, but why not? So, being white people in Japan, we were like celebrities somehow. Guy was really nice in the shop, sat us down for some coffee and toast and we were chatting away. Happened to see a ring I liked (not specifically an engagement ring, but did have a tiny little diamond in it). Got it sized for the girlfriend and proposed on that Friday.

We made a profit on our wedding, the rings were all pretty inexpensive… the engagement ring was about $200 or so, same with each of the wedding rings. I was, at the time, actually completely oblivious to the two-months-salary thing. Had never heard it before. But I also hate ostentatious displays of wealth, so even being aware I would never have followed that “rule.”

Comment #24: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  04/09  at  10:38 PM

Unfortunately for mndean, they had just come out with the Golden Showers specialty necklace, specifically made to honor couples with that particular kink.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/09  at  10:39 PM

“I’m sure that people who filter everything through an anti-capitalist lens will say that advertisers convinced us it was, and so it became that.”

It doesn’t take an anti-capitalist bent, when it comes to diamonds.  Diamond engagement rings are not an old tradition.  The concept was created by DeBeers in the early 20th C, I think. Along with the idea that one should never pass on one’s engagement ring (they invented the idea that a used or inherited ring would “bring bad luck”)....guess why.  Add to that DeBeers’ virtual global monopoly…..

One doesn’t have to be anti-capitalist to realize that the diamond industry is appalling.

Comment #26: Thekat  on  04/09  at  10:40 PM

I already told the boy I don’t want a ring. I said I’d wear my octopus ring if it was necessary.

Comment #27: PixelFish  on  04/09  at  10:42 PM

It doesn’t take an anti-capitalist bent, when it comes to diamonds.  Diamond engagement rings are not an old tradition.  The concept was created by DeBeers in the early 20th C, I think.

DeBeers is responsible for the idea that you must buy a new diamond ring, but the idea of a ring of some sort was around long before then.

Comment #28: Sophist FCD  on  04/09  at  11:05 PM

I have never ever seen the appeal of the diamond engagement ring. I don’t like expensive jewelry, because I’m always afraid I’ll lose it. My grandfather gave me diamond earrings for my birthday, and I will probably literally never take them out, because I would die of guilt if I misplaced them. I also don’t like the idea of having to wear a specific piece of jewelry all the time. I like to wear rings now and again, but sometimes I don’t want to, and that’s fine. I find it annoying that if I ever get married, I’ll be obligated to wear a ring all the time so that people don’t think I’m having an affair or something.

Comment #29: Lauren O  on  04/09  at  11:06 PM

I said I’d wear my octopus ring if it was necessary.

That sounds adorable.

Comment #30: Lauren O  on  04/09  at  11:07 PM

The two months’ salary rule caught on because people love arbitrary standards. Everybody knew that you were supposed to spend a lot of money on an engagement ring, but there was some ambiguity about what constituted a lot. So, some marketing genius at DeBeers decided to sell diamonds and peace of mind by supplying an arbitrary standard.

It was a New York ad firm that actually designed the campaign, so who decided on the “two months” thing isn’t really clear.

That said, it was an absolutely brilliant marketing strategy not because it was an arbitrary standard but because it was a perfect wage-indexed arbitrary standard.  It didn’t matter if you were some guy working for a few bucks a day or a millionaire, the implication (yes, the math is bad, but humans are bad at math) was that a man buying the diamond ring was making the same commitment whatever his net worth was.  It was, essentially, an “every man according to his needs” thing.  Sure, the rich guys would be buying the biggest/most elaborate rings, but the guy who could only afford a half-carat or a quarter-carat on plain gold band didn’t have to be ashamed because of that psychology.  This meant that there was just as much reason for the poor guy to buy the ring.

As I said, absolutely brilliant.  The diamond campaign that started just after World War 2 is, I think, probably the most successful marketing campaign in history.

Comment #31: KeithM  on  04/09  at  11:32 PM

Thekat, I’m not saying you’re wrong.  I just think it’s simple to say, capitalism did it and that’s that.  Capitalists don’t create desires as well as they exploit pre-existing ones.  I’m just sick of writing about how people have personal/political reasons to engage these tropes, and then have someone say, no, it’s all capitalism.  How about both?  Capitalism is really good at exploiting sexism for profit, but in order to exploit it, you have to assume it exists without capitalism inventing it.  Which history shows is true.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/09  at  11:43 PM

re: metal color

Generally, you match the metal of the engagement ring to the metal of the wedding band (so you can weld them together and have an UBER sparkly).  I’m not sure why white metals are more popular than yellow, but I’d guess that it’s partly because platinum became available and is even more expensive than gold. 

My rings are white gold, because I prefer to wear colors that coordinate better with white metals, so nearly all of my jewelry is silver.  While most of my friends (we’re Generation Y) also prefer the white metals, I’m not sure if it’s because we don’t like gold or if it’s because sterling silver is affordable and attractive, while gold colored affordable jewelry usually looks cheap.  In general, we would agree that we like “real gold” but not the crazy-shiny costume gold color.

Comment #33: Emaloo  on  04/09  at  11:46 PM

Metal color is just a design trend. White gold/platinum started to have a resurgence in popularity in the late 1990’s, after being “out” since the 1950’s.  In 1995, when we were looking for engagement rings, and I wanted something like my grandma’s cool 1950’s platinum set, I got the stink eye from every jeweler everywhere. “No one EVER did white gold/platinum wedding/engagement rings” I was told, even though I knew that was a damn lie. I was young and stupid so I ended up settling for an uber boring yellow gold 1/4 carat solitare. When my second marriage came around, I was older and meaner (though not much wiser- hence the “second time around” bit), and I knew for sure I was not going to do the stupid two ring set thing, so I held my ground and got a sweet 1920’s white gold cocktail ring that I love for it’s design. Its my “multipurpose ring” and I love it.  I also got my husband his “multipurpose ring” at the same time, and we both wore our rings in advance of the wedding. It was my piddling attempt to strip the engagement ring of its patriarchal stigma while still indulging my passion for rings (I love rings, and usually wear at least four at a time!)

Comment #34: Neko Onna  on  04/10  at  12:17 AM

I like how several of the rings in the ‘Radiologists’ picture are a quite attractive radioactive green. I imagine if one could still get rings with radium or other radioactive minerals in them it would be quite the romantic gesture for that occupation. There might be health risks, but a decent jeweler should be able to minimize them.

Comment #35: Mark Temporis  on  04/10  at  12:33 AM

I don’t think that marriage is in my future at all - being that I just don’t see the point; I’ll probably find someone to spend my life with at some point - but if I ever get married, I will surely tell my fiance that he can take the ring back and take me on a tour of Europe or something. He’ll have birthdays to buy me things like that. Or… He could take me to some other awesome place, haha.

Comment #36: gwrthryfel  on  04/10  at  12:34 AM

shopping for ethically mined diamonds is impossible for all but the most dedicated people

Fortunately, there are manufactured diamonds—pretty ones, not just industrial-quality diamonds—available.  Carbon is carbon is carbon.

And diamonds are not forever; if you wait long enough, they all become graphite.  It’s true they do last considerably longer than humans.

Comment #37: kaninchen  on  04/10  at  12:40 AM

I always thought it was “one month’s salary”—maybe that changed in the last few years? I did not want a diamond because A) we were hella poor and B) I don’t like rings that have stones; I always snag them and hit them on things, because I do a lot of my own home repair work, and also am clumsy. And C) I made more money than he did, so him buying me a ring was just ridiculous in every way.

We got plain gold matching bands for the ceremony, but after about 3 years, we both kind of stopped wearing them because it was too much trouble. Neither of us is big on jewelry, half the time I don’t even wear earrings.

Re weddings in general; they can be fun, if you want to do them. It is interesting to dress up in costume for one day (those dresses? HEAVY. Even the simple ones, there’s a lot of fabric in those suckers), especially if, like us, that is probably the only time you will ever be in formal wear after your prom days are over.  And cakes need not be inedible; my MIL made ours, in separated tiers on pedestals connected with ribbons, each tier a different flavor (lime, strawberry, lemon, etc.) and topped with real flower petals from her garden. They were delicious! And cost probably 25.00 total to do.

But, the downer at our wedding was not any of that but the very Baptist family members who neither drank nor were willing to do much dancing—waste of a good dance floor/DJ. Sigh. No real solution for that—if I had known they’d be such joy killers, probably would have eloped! And had a party afterwards with our more-fun friends. Oh well.

Ceremonies are interesting things, I think weddings are definitely evolving into more interesting forms these days.

Comment #38: emjaybee  on  04/10  at  12:56 AM

Emmett no way!!  Which casino??  smile

Comment #39: Lisa KS  on  04/10  at  01:06 AM

I actually bought my own engagement ring - I was the one who proposed - it was silver with a moonstone.  I also bought a ring for my husband.  I think the engagement and wedding rings cost $400 total.  Though I had to spend $50 on a matching nose stud.

Comment #40: KristinMH  on  04/10  at  01:15 AM

when i got engaged 15 years ago, my exhusband took me to the mall with $2000 to my just the engagement ring.
i threw a temper tantrum. it was the DUMBEST THING I HAD EVER HEARD.
i found all three rings, matched set, for something like $350

i know the history of engagement rings: basicly, they were supposed to be insurance for the wife-to-be. if her husband ran off, or died, or was crippled, she had a large amount of wealth that she could live off of while getting a new job or new husband.
but… well, the thing is, i don’t NEED that. although i *did* sell my wedding rings to pay for filing the divorce papers….

i have a very pretty “promise ring”, silver and garnet (i am allergic to gold. and garnets are my favorite). i hate diamonds. if we ever get “fancier” rings, i have asked for a red star sapphire (which, i grant, will probably cost almost as much as a diamond, but what can i say? we are only getting fancier rings if we can afford them anyway)
much better than a cold, boring and overpriced (not to mention the ethical issues) diamond, any day.

Comment #41: denelian  on  04/10  at  02:03 AM

Yup.

Good time to push back against values whose primary role is to enrich the powerful and/or further enfeeble the weak.

Imagine: if men weren’t encouraged to fight to defend the honor of their pickups we might be less inclined to fight wars to (in part) fuel them.

We believe we can buy happiness, and marriage is one of those endeavors that everyone knows could tip dramatically either way.  Best to ensure a thumb on the scale with a fat investment right off.

Comment #42: Nemo  on  04/10  at  02:47 AM

[mostly kidding]
Obviously, it’s all about the handicap principle, costly signaling, and commitment mechanisms. You know, the peacock’s tail, tearing off the steering wheel when playing chicken, and all that. Someone crazy enough to waste two months’ salary on a pretty bauble of no practical use is obviously crazy enough to continue to choose to stay with his current partner when given the opportunity to leave for someone better.
[/mostly kidding]

Comment #43: Doug S.  on  04/10  at  02:54 AM

Two-months salary in a bank account plus enough to pay for four good tires and two front-struts should be the goal of all the working poor.

The one time I asked someone to marry me I bought a handcrafted silver ring with a blue iolite at a funky shop on the Westheimer curve in Montrose (Shop The Curve!) for $90. My love was one of Ian Hacking’s Mad Travellers and not be landed.

Comment #44: Bacopa  on  04/10  at  03:15 AM

Even the fast food cook can afford some beautiful rings.

“afford” maybe. Not really afford. Have you ever met a fast food cook who can actually blow two months’ pay on a ring?

Comment #45: kristin  on  04/10  at  03:55 AM

The original idea was that the ring was a fungible offering - I give you so much money, which you get to keep if we break up - not some sentimental token. That’s why it has to cost so much: it’s an emotional ransom offered in advance. Of course diamonds don’t really have any resale value, so the original practical point has been lost.

Since your jewellery will no longer buy your way out of prison, let fancy be your guide!

I’ve observed string players (a violinist, a cellist, married) wearing their bands on their right hands, presumably because they’d mar their instruments were they to wear them on their lefts.

Comment #46: bad Jim  on  04/10  at  05:01 AM

I got given hell in a questioning session when applying for a job as a sheriff’s clerk. The fact that I was married but didn’t wear a ring seemed to trigger the guy doing the questioning to suspect I was having lesbian affairs. Creepy dude. I ended up passing on the job because he was so creepy.

Comment #47: Samantha Vimes  on  04/10  at  06:27 AM

Right on the mark Amanda, well said and I had to nitpick I’d say you went a little easy on some of the bad actors involved.

Comment #48: ice weasel  on  04/10  at  07:30 AM

I’d say I don’t have an engagement ring because I asked him to marry me (which is true), but actually it’s because we’d already been wearing for about a year a matching pair of silver(ish) rings (£10 each from Camden Market) as a commitment symbol to each other, so we just kept those.

We decided that we might, at our tenth anniversary, go and get nice, expensive-ish versions of those same rings if (a) we can afford it and (b) we really want to, but to be honest I think it’s likely that we’ll stick with our well-loved, cost-us-nearly-nothing-but-mean-everything versions forever.

I just cannot get my head around the thinking that leads to spending that kind of money on a ring.  Ditto weddings - I think it comes from the same impulse - big, fat, obnoxious status-display.  We spent the money on a great party for close friends and family and then a great holiday afterwards.

Comment #49: Katherine  on  04/10  at  08:02 AM

I asked him to marry me (and even then, although we are in a very committed relationship and love each other, I’m only stooping to marriage so the feds will be so kind to let us live in the same country) so there was no engagement ring. How silly would that have been to get down on one knee and pop open a diamond ring box? The same amount of silly it would have been for him to do that to me.

So, now, when I tell people I’m getting married, the first thing they want to see is the ring. When I explain that there isn’t one, they get skeptical, like “sure you are engaged? The guy hasn’t put in the down payment on you yet? Don’t hold your breath that it is for real.” Apparently, not being branded means I lost all credibility or something. I don’t like to wear rings. For the actual ceremony, we are exchanging a ring of my mothers and his grandfathers, and then will likely not wear them again. In order to prove I’m married then, I will probably have to walk around with my laminated marriage license around my neck.

Comment #50: Lexie  on  04/10  at  08:03 AM

The concept of the engagement ring actually started with a somewhat good idea, albeit grounded in a crappy system.

The problem was, back in the day a man stood to lose very little from proposing to a woman, keeping her in limbo as his fiance for a long while, and then breaking the engagement if he found somebody he wanted more. 

Women were (are?) viewed as having only a tiny little window of marriageable years, so if one man used up two of those years and then broke off the engagement it would seriously hurt the woman’s chances of finding another suitor.  Men, meanwhile, could marry at any age so they had no such time constraints. 

It was also always assumed that there must be something wrong with the woman to cause the man to break the engagement, further hurting her chances, AND it was also generally assumed that once a couple was engaged they might start fooling around more which meant she might be “defiled” or even deflowered already.  All of which sucked a great deal for the woman, but had little to no negative impact for the man.

Enter the idea of the flashy, expensive engagement ring.  Now, if the guy is going to propose he has to present a very expensive gift, with the knowledge that if he breaks the engagement the woman will get to keep it as a forfeit.  This was seen both as an incentive for the guy to not break it off (since once he marries her that gift becomes his property again), and also as a way of giving women a form of compensation if the engagement were broken.

Comment #51: bonk  on  04/10  at  08:08 AM

If my boyfriend bought me a diamond engagement ring, that would mean he knew absolutely nothing about me.

This this this. I went for years thinking I was weird because I didn’t like rings that stuck up and got in the way, and thought diamonds were kinda boring. Still gleeful to see other people who feel the same way! If someone got me one and I was dumb enough to accept it, I’d feel guilty ever after, because I know I wouldn’t wear it, and then I’d feel bad because they’d gone to all the effort and I wasn’t wearing it.

I still kinda like the idea a former coworker had, though. She and her husband were putting each other through school when they got married, and she was going to be a nurse, so instead of a big engagement ring + wedding wing combo (which she’d have to take off every time she scrubbed up anyway), she got a small gold band with three or four little tiny diamond chips embedded in it. So she had something pretty, but it was practical, too. If I ever decided to go for a traditional wedding ring at all, I think that’s what I’d do.

The engagement ring my brother gave his wife, and the ones my sister and her girlfriend gave each other, were all just random pretty rings that they liked, and that meant something to them, and didn’t break the bank. Hooray practicality.

Comment #52: Nenya  on  04/10  at  08:19 AM

“wedding wing”? *facepalm* I, ah, must have been talking too much about the Bartlett administration, that’s all I can say in my defense. raspberry

Comment #53: Nenya  on  04/10  at  08:21 AM

well-loved, cost-us-nearly-nothing-but-mean-everything versions forever

Ah, and Katharine says everything I wanted to say 10x better. :D

Comment #54: Nenya  on  04/10  at  08:23 AM

I have never wanted and engagement ring.  Growing up, I never understood why women wanted them so much.  I grew up rich, so I figured that if I wanted a ring that badly, I’d just buy one.  Even as an adult, I make a decent salary, and the odds are that I will make more than my future husband.  Engagement rings just always seemed so useless.  Sure, I can stare at the pretty sparkles for awhile, but I could stare at a new TV for much longer and get slightly more entertainment out of it.  Engagement rings are also not a good investment, because their resale value is so low.  This is true of almost all jewelery.  My brother used to own a coin and jewelery store, so I found out that if you want to sell your gold jewelery, it’s based only on the weight of the gold, and has nothing to do with the style or artistic work.  So the only other reason to buy expensive jewelery is to prove that you can.  Ironically enough, most people can’t really afford the status symbol and their finances suffer because of it.  However, I’ve never felt the need to prove to others how much money I make.  I’m much more proud that I’m responsible with my money.  I’d rather be debt-free than make a bunch of people jealous of me.

So I don’t think very highly of retail jewelery in general, and I also think the wedding industry is almost a complete scam, so I especially think engagement rings are a waste of money.  I absolutely hate the idea that the way to show your love for someone is to waste your money on frivolous things.  One of my brothers tried to have a small wedding, and it still cost $60 for a bowl of pretzels.  And the implication is that if you don’t spend that $60 and have the perfect pretzels at your reception, then you don’t really love each other because if you did, then you’d be willing to spend whatever it takes.  Personally, I think it’s a better act of love to show that you care more about your future together than a bunch of status symbols.  Instead of the expensive rings, the expensive dress that you wear only once, and all the other wedding expenses, I’d rather use that money to pay for a house, put it in the bank for future children’s education, or even give it to a charity.  That’s what real love should be.

Comment #55: bananacat  on  04/10  at  09:26 AM

One day last November, my SO and I were talking and I said “how about we get engaged for Christmas?” (as in, not buy each other other gifts)  So I guess technically I proposed or something.  We then went out looking for rings (we both wanted to wear one).  He thought the titanium rings with geometric designs were cool, so he found one and ordered it online.  Then we went to the mall to buy mine.  The sales people were quite narrow minded at most of the stores.  They kept directing questions towards him, when I’m the one who is picking out the ring for starters.  Also, I wanted a flat inexpensive ring (no sharp stones sticking up to catch on things), so I ended up having to look in the ‘anniversary’ section (the ones in the engagement section were way to expensive).  The ring I ended up getting has a criss-cross at the front, which looks like the symbol for ‘infinity’, which as a mathematicians, I loved.  Both our rings together cost less than one of our salaries for one week.  Explaining why we both have rings, and the no one really ‘proposed’ was annoying once we told our families though.  I even had one aunt tell me I"ll “regret” not having a big romantic proposal some day.  Yah right.

Comment #56: miki_mouse  on  04/10  at  10:05 AM

I even had one aunt tell me I"ll “regret” not having a big romantic proposal some day.  Yah right.

Oh my, I hate that so much.  When I was about 15, I said something like I’d get married if I find the right guy, but if I end up not married, I’ll be fine and happy with it.  Some elderly female relative that I hardly know insisted that I would change my mind when I got older.  It’s very condescending, like she thinks I’m just some silly child who has dreams of having my own life and a career, and as soon as I wake up and realize that my value is measured by husband, I’ll be desperate find one and it might be too late by then.  I didn’t make a big deal of it because I rarely ever see her, but I was mad for a long time, and I still am.  But I also feel some pity for her, because she grew up in a time when she didn’t have any choices, and I think she wanted me to want what she had, to validate her own life.  Or maybe she just genuinely could not understand the concept of a woman having choices in life, and that’s even more sad.

Comment #57: bananacat  on  04/10  at  10:36 AM

I told my husband-to-be that if he bought me a ring I would dump him. (It was halfway a joke, but had some truth to it; I was making it clear that I have no desire whatsoever for a ring, and any person who claims to love you who buys you something you’ve clearly stated you don’t want is not someone who will respect your wants and desires in the future.)

I’m married, do not have any sort of ring, and it has never come up. No one has ever asked me why I don’t have a ring or am I really married or anything like that.

My husband has a wedding ring from his previous marriage. We joke that it should be engraved with “Ash nazg durbatulûk”, given how his previous marriage turned out. grin

I have never liked jewelry of any kind and will not wear it. My daughter likes jewelry (well, both do, but I discount the three year old’s opinions because when I was her age I liked jewelry a lot also), but I am going to teach her that an engagement ring is a symbol that marks her as the property of a man and indicates that he makes more money and has more power than she has. My daughter is sufficiently ambitious and power-hungry that if she understands that to be the meaning of engagement rings and not “oh, how romantic!”, she will never want one (or she will insist on buying one for her husband-to-be if he wants to buy her one, just to be fair.) Also, it’s a waste of money (and my girl wants to be rich, so she won’t approve of wasting money.)

Comment #58: Alara J Rogers  on  04/10  at  10:42 AM

Fortunately, there are manufactured diamonds—pretty ones, not just industrial-quality diamonds—available.  Carbon is carbon is carbon.

I agree that carbon is carbon, and people always say “oh, there’s all these diamond alternatives!” but have you ever really looked for that stuff?  It is really difficult.  For starters, there’s only a couple of places making jewelry-grade manufactured diamonds, and good luck finding a place that sells them.  Then theres a lot of jargon when you do find places selling diamond alternatives - there’s fake diamonds that are cubic zirconia, fake diamonds that aren’t cubic zarconia but aren’t industrially-compressed carbon, either, and no one seems to agree on which terms refer to which fake diamonds.  Add to that the fact that a jeweler is not likely to be terribly helpful unless you’re spending insane amounts of money, and some of them are perfectly happy to lie to you.  And the prices - what the hell do those mean?  How can you tell if you’re getting fleeced or not?  I found that just looking for a diamond was terribly stressful; it would take quite a bit to make me look again.

What I’m saying is, those of us who want to convince people that if you must have a diamond, you should go with a conflict-free or manufactured ones have an uphill battle.  The effort it takes to get a diamond in the most ethically possible manner is not an effort the majority of people are willing to make.  Especially because they seem to be just as expensive.  Now I just said, fuck it, I’ll go without instead.  That was easy because I don’t think diamonds are all that awesome.  Most people will just say, fuck it, and maybe go so far as to chose to believe that if DeBeers says it’s a conflict-free diamond, that’s good enough for them. 

Chipping away at the whole engagement ring mythology will probably help a lot in getting your average ring shopper to think about the wheres and whys of their diamond rings more carefully.  But my experience as a giddy engaged person suggests that “Alternatives are available!  Look, there’s a whole website!  And certain jewelers in select major metropolitan areas have one of their catalogs!” isn’t going to be enough to make a dent in the diamond racket.

Comment #59: Kyso K  on  04/10  at  10:43 AM

Well, I may be the only one to say this on this site but my ring is like a crazy NRA’s gun—you’ll get it from my cold, dead hand. And that’s because I didn’t ask for one but received it from the best man on the face of the earth who isn’t trying to “mark his territory” or anything crazy like that. I appreciate his love, the sentiment, the thought behind it and the fact that he plunked down some of his cash when he really, really, really didn’t have to.

But the expectations around engagement rings are WAY overblown. Just this morning on the radio they were discussing a woman who was disappointed that the diamond in her engagement ring is so small she can hardly see it. Hello? Recession. Maybe he had to scrimp and save to get that tiny diamond. Perhaps putting food on the table is a higher priority to him. Ingratitude toward a man she said is otherwise wonderful pisses me off worse than ostentatious displays of wealth.

Comment #60: DC Fem  on  04/10  at  10:47 AM

Re: that salesman - he gave me a dirty look and quickly ignored me. I was hoping for better. I used to be quite the wit when I was young and annoyed.

Comment #61: mndean  on  04/10  at  11:00 AM

BTW, I never, ever understood the ring nonsense at all. From that fact that it’s just a bit of carbon like a lump of anthracite to how exploited are those that mined them, to the ritual offering, I Just Never Got It. Funny thing is my mother likes diamonds, but every nice one she got, she bought for herself. My father didn’t buy her but one when they got married, and my mom never, ever wore it.

Comment #62: mndean  on  04/10  at  11:09 AM

My husband gave me an heirloom—a dainty diamond ring that belonged to his grandmother. otherwise I would have refused an engagement ring. Then again, the only reason we got married after living together for 10 years was we bought a house. if you have one piece of paper between you, why not have another?

Comment #63: louC  on  04/10  at  11:27 AM

Lisa, The Rio.  |=)

Comment #64: bomberE  on  04/10  at  11:37 AM

My Mom gave me her great-grandmother’s ring to use when the time was right.  It has several old-cut diamond sin a cluster on a gold band.  Not very valuable as diamonds go but my wife loved it.  it was different, it was an heirloom, and it was pretty much free (we did have to have it resized).

She was surprised when I insisted that I get a wedding ring for myself as well a sone for her.  Both of us have plain gold bands.

Comment #65: Woodrowfan  on  04/10  at  11:41 AM

I never, ever understood the ring nonsense at all. From that fact that it’s just a bit of carbon like a lump of anthracite to how exploited are those that mined them,

Okay, putting aside the fact that a lot of people don’t see the point of diamonds (we get it already, and while I never bought my wife an diamond engagement ring, she bought one for herself because she does like the shiny sparkly), I would again point out to our American listeners: largish country to your north?  Produces diamonds?  Doesn’t exploit workers at the mines?  You know, capital is Ottawa?

And you know, “just the lump of carbon” thing gets a tad worn.  From a geological standpoint, diamonds aren’t just a lump of coal or graphite.  They come from the upper mantle, from underneath the thickest parts of continental crust, carried upwards through it at ridiculous speeds in explosive volcanic eruptions of a type that a geologist would kill to see because those of us who talk to rocks know there’s never been one that we know about since well before some ape decided to try out this two leg walking thing.

Sure, the commercialization of them is ridiculous but make no mistake: a diamond is a thing of wonder all in its own.

Comment #66: KeithM  on  04/10  at  11:49 AM

Is that “two months salary” piece real? Because a LOT of those pictures look identical to the pictures on the DIamond Nexus site, a place that sells beautiful lab-created diamond jewelry and sells them for significantly less than “two months salary” of most of those lists.

And, thus, here’s my story and why I can recognize Diamond Nexus pictures at 50 paces.

I wanted an engagement ring because, well, I like the symbolism that “hey, we’ve decided to get married!” and the oppressive history behind it all can eff off for all I care. I wanted, however, a ring that was (1) cheap, (2) artificially created, and (3) set REALLY low so that it wouldn’t snag on stuff. Diamond Nexus nailed (1) and (2), but I could NOT find a (3) at all, except a “male” ring that I just didn’t really like. Other lab diamonds… well, as KysoK said, it’s not a very easy market to navigate right now. Trauma.

So we toss out (2) in favor of (1) and (3): cheap and practical. We locate a very nice ring, under $200, with a little diamond chip in it that I really like. We buy it, and in classic Patriarchy Hurts Men Too (PHMT) style, my boyfriend has a fairly mild crisis where he can’t give me such a small ring because “everyone” will have a huge problem with it. “Everyone” being…..no one, really, but it’s just so ingrained in men that if you don’t march down to Jared’s and buy a gigantic ring then you’re a shlob who will totally deserve it when she leaves you for Keanu Reeves.

I insisted, in vain, that I didn’t need an expensive ring, that we could use the money elsewhere, that I was 100% happy with the tiny one we’d bought - to no avail. It wasn’t enough that I was happy with the ring, he needed to be happy, too. Even if his concerns didn’t make a lot of sense to me, or seemed rooted in the patriarchy because he needs to feel validation from his peers and from society that he did the “right” thing.

So now we have a big, expensive(er) ring (but still practical, and very gorgeous) for about $1000 and I’m going to get the original tiny ring for my right hand as a gift for birthday or Christmas or something, because I still really like the style and design. He’s happy, and I’m happy that he’s happy.

All of which is a really long way of saying that these things are complicated. And that if a guy gives you a ring, it may not mean, necessarily, that he should be dumped because he doesn’t know you or care about your feelings or that he’s trying to claim you or that he buys into the patriarchal history of rings - it may just mean that he’s had a lifetime of Hallmark and Jared commercials screaming IF YOU DO NOT BUY HER A HALF CARAT RING, YOU DO NOT VALUE HER and he feels conflicted over those messages and doesn’t know how to unpack all that societal baggage. In our case, if it had meant enough to me to NOT have one, we could have had a soul-searching discussion/argument over it, and he could have tried to change that particular piece of commercial brainwashing, but I personally just didn’t feel it was worth arguing over, once I’d presented my initial case, because - well, I like jewelry and it seemed like a little thing to make him happy.

YMMV, as always. smile

Comment #67: Essie Elephant  on  04/10  at  11:56 AM

My husband spent about a half-month’s salary or less on my ring, and it is all the more beautiful because it came from Hong Kong and is, therefore, styled differently than any other I have seen.  Moreover, it is a good quality rock, but not big and I have yet to wreck it in 20 years that I have had it because it is very modestly sized.

So, yeah, 20 years ago we did the rock thing, but didn’t buy the idea of spending excessive amounts of money on it.  It was that much more special because it was MY style, too, and it still gets attention despite the modest price tag because it is very stylish.

I just need to get it sized because I broke my ring finger in a bike wreck and now my knuckle is still just slightly too big (my wedding band does slide over).  That happened to be on a day when I forgot to put it on, thankfully, or it would have had to be cut off.

Comment #68: Ms Kate  on  04/10  at  11:57 AM

Needless to say, two months salary now would be completely ridiculous to spend on any ornimental thing.  That’s college tuition for a year at a state university for chrissakes.  I’d far rather have time and money to kayak in Iceland on the summer solstice and bring the kids with us.

Comment #69: Ms Kate  on  04/10  at  12:05 PM

a ring that was (1) cheap, (2) artificially created, and (3) set REALLY low so that it wouldn’t snag on stuff. Diamond Nexus nailed (1) and (2), but I could NOT find a (3) at all, except a “male” ring that I just didn’t really like.

I also wanted something that wouldn’t get bashed or snag on stuff.  What I have doesn’t, but not because it is set really low ... it doesn’t because it is a very sturdy and sculptural four-prong setting with a half carrat diamond in it.  No skinny prongs to snag and the rock is heavily (but beautifully) armored in 18 karat gold.

That my husband solved this problem so beautifully is the real wonderful here.

Comment #70: Ms Kate  on  04/10  at  12:12 PM

Ms Kate,

Probably a YMMV situation - the materials I work with would snag on pretty much anything that isn’t set low in a bevel. Sculptured anything was right out.

Comment #71: Essie Elephant  on  04/10  at  12:19 PM

For men, it’s obvious that marking someone with a symbol of your status is a pretty blunt way of saying that now her esteem and status depends on you, which has got to feel powerful.  For women, you get to have other women enact what is actually a form of professional jealousy.
No need to genderize like that though. I think both are quite applicable for each sex. Wife doesn’t get very happy of the though of her man removing the emblem of his monogamous commitment from his finger. And a man would certainly be willing to brag about the size of the rock he gave to her wife.

Comment #72: MarkusR  on  04/10  at  12:30 PM

Wow, this post and many of the comments have made me feel really conflicted - which I’m glad about, as I appreciate the opportunity to question my assumptions and feelings.
I agree the two-months’ stuff is ridiculous, as is diamond industry advertising in general (worst, on a billboard, “make her speechless, for a change.”) 
But. I love my (small, supposedly ethical though we didn’t delve too deeply) ring. Because my best friend in the world wanted me to have it, for a lot of reasons that are none of your business. And I resent the implication that I’m feminism FAIL because of it.  To me, a lot of the railing against rings is just another example of judging a woman before she even opens her mouth. To which I’m opposed.

Comment #73: Shiny  on  04/10  at  12:47 PM

Well, good thing the post wasn’t about you, then.

Comment #74: Raging Red  on  04/10  at  12:57 PM

my husband gave me several extremely ugly bakelite rings for our engagement, because I collect bakelite and he didn’t grasp the ring sizing problem. I can’t wear any of them because of both a and b. But it was a nice thought.

I did want to post something on the “Everyone expects” shtick. We were older when we got engaged—34 to be exact and we just didn’t seem to know anyone who wanted to see an engagement ring or who asked us about it. I only know one other person who made a huge fuss about her own ring and they were very wealthy, of course, and the ring just as tacky as if she’d gotten it out of a gumball machine.  We were having dinner with them (dh’s old college roomate) and when the groom left the table to powder his nose I made a huge fuss over the ring. And then he came back and asserted to us that she was upset because we “Hadn’t paid enough attention to the ring.”  This was hugely embarrassing to her because it was so obvious that he had a ton of ego invested in the size of the rock. But really, who gives a flying fuck how much some guy has sitting on his girlfriend’s finger? Its the same people who think you are actually looking at their car, or their house, and thinking “ooo, he makes a lot of money.” But really, outside of a small circle of competitive people you are quite likely thinking the same thing when you see a hummer go by—“hey, that guy has a really small dick.”

I think there is a huge difference between an engagement ring and “doing something sensible with the money” however.  If you don’t have the money for an “important” ring yet you surely have the money for a physically cheap yet sentimental “sign” of the impending marriage which is distinct from the conor friedsdorf imaginary “trip to italy.”  A vacation in an exotic place is an important and valuable memory, no doubt, but the marriage is a commitment for a whole lot of other stuff besides dinners, or trips, or anything emphemeral. And the ring, or a nice pet rock, or planting a tree together, are all things that are qualitatively different from a mere holiday experience.  Its not about conserving or spending money but about signaling to each other in a memorable way that the marriage commitment has been made. There are lots of interesting ways both partners can do that that are non gendered and non oppressive. But it takes a little thought and a lot of detatchment from social pressure to conform to stupid sterotypes that amount to no more than a kind of pre marital potlatch or bonfire of the vanities.

aimai

Comment #75: aimai  on  04/10  at  12:59 PM

This post has given me some food for thought. I never really thought about the engagement ring as a mark of ownership or status, though that really is exactly what it is, and I guess I’ve always known that but never thought about it enough to get repulsed. Ugh.

I wore a fake ring before I met my husband and I wear the real one now, even though we are separated. My reasons for doing so have nothing to do with who I belong to (which is - and always has been - no one but myself) or status. I will continue to wear the ring because I won’t allow false assumptions others may make about me to influence my decisions. I will, however, be more aware that those assumptions exist and make more of an effort to dispel any rumors that I consider myself a commodity.

As for the cost of them, I would have been just as happy keeping my fake one. I think it cost me $12. At the time, I wasn’t even aware of the ethical issues with diamonds, but if I had been I probably would have had a stronger opinion on the subject. I definitely would have preferred a nice trip or putting a down payment on a house over getting a flashy piece of jewelry.

Comment #76: gorillagirl  on  04/10  at  01:54 PM

one thing is missing from your analysis.

a lot of guys hate the whole engagement ring thing.  A small token is one thing, but forking over 2 months of salary in order to bow to social pressure and/or pressure from the fiancee to be is a pretty crappy thing to many guys.  That may be due to different factors depending on the guy, some of which may be pro-feminist, others of which may be quite anti-feminist and anti-woman.

Comment #77: jerry_101  on  04/10  at  02:21 PM

You know, it is funny, because we went alone with the whole ring thing last year when we got engaged (I got him an engagement gift that is ridiculously practical, b/c I couldn’t talk him into a watch or any other traditional type of male adornment, and he didn’t want an enagement ring).  But now, he barely wears his wedding ring, which I understand because of his job, and because, if you never have before, wearing a ring takes getting used to.  And recently, although I’ll probably be able to start wearing it again in a week or so, a medical condition made my engagement ring too tight.  And I started thinking about not wearing it, and maybe even not wearing the wedding band.

Comment #78: Ismone  on  04/10  at  02:27 PM

I’d like a ring. I’ve always been a jewelry person, and I despise diamonds. I kind of love the idea of getting a ring from my partner as opposed to buying my own, like I have with almost every piece I own. (I worked for a jeweler, knowing more about the stuff means no surprises for me.) So I’ll have something sanely priced, ethically sourced, and possibly custom, probably from a talented local (or handmade by someone else).

Comment #79: BeccaTheCyborg  on  04/10  at  02:45 PM

BTW, denelian, star sapphires are way less expensive than diamonds—particularly because they don’t have to have a high degree of clarity.  I got my (non-star) sapphire from the Natural Sapphire Co., online, and liked them a lot.  Not to be an ad/spam bot, but they have nice stuff, and it seems to be ethically sourced.

Comment #80: Ismone  on  04/10  at  02:51 PM

We hadn’t intended to get an engagement ring, but I saw a really nice Venetian glass bead set in silver wire at a craft show.  So, the Boy forked over the $5.00 for it, and I had an engagement ring. 

For our wedding rings, we got $35 silver claddaghs (mine had to be resized because the women’s claddaghs were all incredibly flimsy, so I got the smallest man’s ring they had).  So, um $35 plus $15 to resize it. 

We also have silver celtic knotwork bands that we got as our first anniversary presents to one another.  Alas, the Boy works with his hands, and his has broken.  We really need to get that fixed.  However, those rings also cost about $35 each, as well. 

I remember working in a hotel while I was in college.  This trucker came in, got a room, and then said, “So, uh, you wanna join me for a drink in the bar when you get off?”
“Sorry, married,” I said and went back to my homework.
“I don’t see no diamond.”
“I don’t like diamonds, I don’t like gold.”
“Why couldn’t I have met you three wives ago?”

Honestly, he was way nicer and less creepy than the salesmen who’d stay there.  *shudder*

Comment #81: GeekGirlsRule  on  04/10  at  03:00 PM

I admit it, I bought my wife an engagement ring. It has a diamond in it. It isn’t very big and I sure didn’t pay two months salary for it (young & poor). We’ve talked about getting a new one as we are older & in a better place financially. She doesn’t like the idea because she’d rather spend the money on the house or us (vacation maybe). I thought I was being romantic when I got it and she was nice enough to let me believe it and accept my proposal.

Comment #82: Mark  on  04/10  at  03:16 PM

And you know, “just the lump of carbon” thing gets a tad worn.  From a geological standpoint, diamonds aren’t just a lump of coal or graphite.  They come from the upper mantle, from underneath the thickest parts of continental crust, carried upwards through it at ridiculous speeds in explosive volcanic eruptions of a type that a geologist would kill to see because those of us who talk to rocks know there’s never been one that we know about since well before some ape decided to try out this two leg walking thing.

This is an excellent reason to like diamonds and not one I’d thought of, so thanks!  As a younger kaninchen, I studied chemistry, and the idea of making diamonds (and of them decaying eventually) tickled me no end.  If I’d done geology, I expect I’d have felt differently.

The wife and I each have one of these for wedding rings.  When we got them they were even cheaper.

Comment #83: kaninchen  on  04/10  at  03:27 PM

I’m mildly amused by the suggestion of using the cash for an engagement ring and taking a long trip to Italy because my husband gave me his grandmother’s ring while we were on an extended trip to Italy. We didn’t have to deal with ring salespeople or feel like we were pushed into spending more than we were comfortable with, which was nice. Of course, we immediately had people judging what the size of the ring meant. It was all very, very silly.

Comment #84: kayare  on  04/10  at  04:04 PM

The “tradition” that gets me even more than the ring thing (which is an exercise in wasting money, it seems to me) is the “asking her father for her hand” thing.  I really can’t believe that people do that or allow their SO’s to do that, that they think that they belong to their father and that he should get the final say.  I’ve heard people argue that it shows respect for the family, etc. Really?  Asking for her shows respect?  Telling a family that their daughter is chattle is a respectful gesture?  I can imagine someone framing it as “I’d like to let you know that I care about your daughter and plan to ask her to marry me.” I suppose, but then I don’t beleive in the proposal either—why should he have to ask me?  Why can’t we just decide to get married? That’s what my spouse and I did. No ring.  Just set a date and had a big party.  Our wedding rings were made of melted down gold jewelry that I had gotten as gifts from people who didn’t realize that I never wear jewelry.

Comment #85: kajey  on  04/10  at  04:05 PM

This is an excellent reason to like diamonds and not one I’d thought of, so thanks!  As a younger kaninchen, I studied chemistry, and the idea of making diamonds (and of them decaying eventually) tickled me no end.  If I’d done geology, I expect I’d have felt differently.

Nearly every time I go out to a conference, and since my wife—as mentioned—likes the sparkly, I try to pick up something for her, which has given her a somewhat eclectic collection.  She has meteoritic iron earrings, fossil coral pendants, dinosaur bone broaches, mammoth ivory earrings…

Comment #86: KeithM  on  04/10  at  05:03 PM

Ismone

i grant i can find a nice star sapphire for around a hundred bucks
but a nice RED star sapphire/star ruby?
most of the ones that i have seen that are what i would pay (the around a hundred bucks) are PINK. and no, no, NO! no pink! i have seen darker ones that are almost purple, for around 150 (i could deal… but) the RED, actually RED star sapphires? are at LEAST 1500.
now, thinking about it, and discovering recently that there are STAT GARNETS (oh my holy hell how did i *NOT* know about this?) i would be willing to also go with a star garnet - but right now, those seem to be even MORE because of the rairity, and star issues (most garnets have a 4sided star, which i think is fine, but the people who polish them think that the 4sided star ones should NEVER be rings so always polish them into weird shapes for braclets and such…)
so, i found one REDREDRED star sapphire/star ruby i liked, 188 (but from India so needs more research) and one Red/Black Star Garnet i liked (250)

but all of that happened after i posted last night - because the last time i had looked (a couple of years ago, and not at all related to rings) they were MUCH more expensive.

now they seemed to have dropped in price (bigger stock? or just the popularity went up?)
and as long as i pay attention to WHERE the stone is from - they ALWAYS tell you with star stones, its part of their value - i should be golden.

(all of which was really long and probably OT, sorry… but Ismone was trying to help! she deserved the full explanation smile

Comment #87: denelian  on  04/10  at  05:59 PM

No, you are right, they run into the thousands—BUT, they are way less expensive per carat than high quality diamonds.

Here’s a pretty one for $125, but it is also from India.  http://www.starruby.in/store/indian-star-rubies/2-90-carat-wonderful-indian-star-ruby-natural-untreated-p-332

Comment #88: Ismone  on  04/10  at  07:29 PM

i have an engagement ring, no diamond tho. its a little yellow gold ring with opals and garnets set in a daisy shape, and i’ve never seen another ring like it. we paid under $200 for it at a local antique shop. for our wedding bands we’re ordering custom engraved silver bands from a jewelry maker on etsy, for $50 a piece. most of our wedding stuff is coming from etsy, including my dress, which is being custom made just for me by a wonderful dressmaker in new zealand, for a tiny fraction of the cost of a traditional wedding gown.

i’m more excited for our honeymoon tho, his parents have cash so we’re getting our dream trip, taking an amtrack sleeping car from chicago to portland oregon, then spending a few days in portland and flying home. our criteria for our honeymoon involved travelling somewhere with great veggie and vegan food.

we’re also super psyched to register for kitchen gadgets and nice sheets and towels. when you’re young and poor a wedding can be a splendid way to get free stuff and a nice vacation from older relatives who are better off financially.

Comment #89: jessilikewhoa  on  04/10  at  09:34 PM

Ismone:
serendipity - i have that SPECIFIC star ruby bookmarked as an example of what i want! i have emailed it to Pete! and now you are showing it to me again
i think the World is telling me i should get it :D

to be honest, i don’t know that there are ethical issues with gem mining in India, thats why the research is needed (and i need to start on that very soon now, as soon as i finish this research on a treaty made between the US government and the Barados Pirates…). have you heard of anything, or know of any resources?

(i am seriously as in love with that specific star ruby as it is possible for me to be in love with an inanimate object)

Jessi - opals USED to be highly reguarded as engagement stones. when Manny asked Laura Ingals (Wilder) to marry him, she told him “it depends on the ring”, and he handed her an opal ring, and she decided the ring was “good enough” lol (no, she wasn’t being materialistic, i think she was being very very shy and unsure of herself. i guess you probably need to read that specific passage to get it). Opals are good stones, i like them. just not as much as garnets (which, you have! my favorite stone, hands down, despite the fact that i was born in Febuary) or rubys.
enjoy the trip - i have heard that for cross country travel, amtrack sleeping cars are *THE* best way. i’m kinda jealous, actually smile

Comment #90: denelian  on  04/11  at  01:32 AM

Hi denelian,

I am Harshil Zaveri from The Star Ruby Shop (starruby.in/store), the product you have bookmarked appears on my website. I just noticed a few visits from this page to my website and hence ended up here.

On the issue of ethical mining in India… India is not like African countries where miners are harassed and tortured for mining. This sort of situation occurs mostly in case of diamond mining in some West African countries because of the tremendous value involved. However, even this has reduced recently owing to international pressure and awareness. So one thing you can be sure of is that the gemstones on my website are not “unethical” gemstones.


Also, you might also be wrong about not being able to find a nice “RED” star ruby for less than $200 smile

That’s definitely possible!

Regards,
Harshil Zaveri

Comment #91: Harshil Zaveri  on  04/11  at  02:05 AM

denelian,

Psst, buy it. 

PS—Damn, I forgot/didn’t know that if I posted links people would know I posted links.  Scaryness.  (No offense, Mister, but really.)

Comment #92: the World  on  04/11  at  02:09 AM

the world,

well that usually is not possible but since I installed a tracking software on my website to track clicks I get from google adsense ads hence this article showed up in my tracking software and I ended up reading the discussion!

Regards,
Harshil Zaveri

Comment #93: Harshil Zaveri  on  04/11  at  10:03 AM

Never thought of the diamond ring as the equivalent of peeing on your property, but it makes sense.  The jealousy-evoking nature and the status symbol comes as no surprise.  I had the big diamond and lost it when I took it off for Tae Kwon Do, so I feel like an idiot for having it: it was expensive.

I think, if I ever get a new ring to replace the old one, I’ll go for a sapphire or ruby instead.  Probably a ruby.  I prefer rubies anyways.

Comment #94: Mrs. W  on  04/11  at  05:44 PM

Amanda,
I get what you’re saying and mostly agree.  It’s just that in the case of DeBeers, who have established a near monopoly on commercially available diamonds, it’s impossible NOT to blame them directly for a lot of the junk that’s passed off as “tradition.”  Did the concept of engagement rings exist before the company?  Yes.  Did they have to be the one stone that would virtually guarantee a huge profit for one particular company?  No.

De Beers technically counts as a cartel, in that it owns the majority of the large mines, restricts and controls supply (by buying up smaller mines and companies), and raises prices.  Diamonds aren’t any rarer than most gemstones, and are probably more common than some.  The prices, however are far, far higher.

You’re right, in that blaming capitalism doesn’t really get us anywhere.  I think in this particular case, though, it’s really important to realize that the source of many traditions is really one company’s desire for a global monopoly.  That way we can begin to really undo our conditioning and look for more real and personal ways to symbolize love and devotion.

Props to everyone who goes for meaningful tattoos, other jewelry or some non-traditional engagement practice that I haven’t even thought of….

Comment #95: Thekat  on  04/11  at  10:34 PM

KeithM:

That said, it was an absolutely brilliant marketing strategy not because it was an arbitrary standard but because it was a perfect wage-indexed arbitrary standard.  It didn’t matter if you were some guy working for a few bucks a day or a millionaire, the implication (yes, the math is bad, but humans are bad at math) was that a man buying the diamond ring was making the same commitment whatever his net worth was.  It was, essentially, an “every man according to his needs” thing.  Sure, the rich guys would be buying the biggest/most elaborate rings, but the guy who could only afford a half-carat or a quarter-carat on plain gold band didn’t have to be ashamed because of that psychology.  This meant that there was just as much reason for the poor guy to buy the ring.

But the extra genius marketing ploy of this is that some guys will want to spend more than two months’ salary to make people think they make more money than they actually do.  For the diamond-sellers, this is gravy.

Comment #96: oldfeminist  on  04/12  at  12:34 AM

Harshil Zaveri;

thanx for stopping by smile
do you have an resources on how mining is done in India? (there is a distinct difference between exploiting workers and actually paying workers - i’m not saying that i believe the mining in India is exploitive, i am saying *i don’t know”, and would really like to learn more)

that particular star ruby (the Ismone linked, that i have bookmarked) i really like except its a little more pink - it was the *least* pink one i saw (anywhere) that was less than 1500-2000. that said, its possible that its a lighting issue or something, and that it really is a lot redder in person. i hate pink but red is my favorite color, so i tend to have issues anyway lol.

all that said, it will probably be a while before we “upgrade” our rings as i refuse to get married until i finish my Bachelors Degree, and i don’t graduate til next June (blame my health, i do - if i hadn’t had to have lots of surgeries i would be graduating *this* June), but i am almost 100% certain that when we do get new rings, the star ruby will be from your site (the best gems for the best prices, with the least ethical issues, after a few months of research smile it’s bookmarked - both the main site and the specific star ruby for reference.

Comment #97: denelian  on  04/12  at  12:44 AM

denelian,

From what I have seen till date, mining in India works something as follows:

1) Mr. A owns a large piece of land where he comes across a few rubies

2) Mr. A applies for mining permissions to the Indian government

3) After going through hundreds of problems (including *expensive* gifts to the government officials… you know what I mean), Mr. A finally gets permission from the government in return for royalty

4) Mr. A employs workers to get the rubies mined from his land. He pays the worked full daily wages (since the workers all have unions and they have a standard daily wage rate which the employer must pay)

5) 70% of the rubies mines from Mr. A’s land are stolen by the workers and 30% low and medium quality ends up in the hands of Mr. A.

6) The 70% stolen rubies end up in Jaipur and they are sold for dirt-cheap prices by the workers since they don’t realize the value, they are just concerned with how much cash they end up with at the end of the day.

7) Mr. A can’t sell the 30% of his rubies for the price he expects because the market has already been exploited by his *own* 70% stolen rubies.

8) So, finally its the dealers in Jaipur and the workers who end up with a profit and Mr. A ends up with a huge *high-priced* inventory and huge mining overheads.

In India, the question of exploitation or not paying workers does not arise. Infact they end up with super high wages if you consider the money they make from stolen rubies.

My story is not 100% but you get a hint about how the mining system in India works.


On another note, thanks for bookmarking my site and products. Do let me know if anything interests you. I have several red and blood red star rubies of your taste. Do contact me using the contact form on my website if you need more details.


Regards,
Harshil

Comment #98: Harshil Zaveri  on  04/14  at  03:48 AM
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