Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Back in the day @ Stuyvesant HS…along with a Beastie Boys video break Previous entry: We were told that common ground was *not* compromise

Catholic columnist: homosexuality = eating disorder

And the church wonders why its numbers are shrinking? Deacon Keith Fournier’s screed @ Catholic Online, “Should Disordered Appetites be Civil Rights?”, only reinforces the belief that the moral and logical center is missing from the domain of pedophile-enabling Prada Papa Ratzi’s domain. He pulls out all the old saws, quoting the Pope’s nonsense, using the “parts don’t fit” argument…then pulls out a comparison of equal rights committed same-sex relationships to affirming eating disorders.

The Catholic Church will not change its position on the nature of marriage because it cannot. Truth is not up for grabs.

Among the clearest summaries of the teaching of our Church on this matter was set forth by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XI) in the “Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons” promulgated in 1986. Here are just a few of the clearly stated insights: “The Church, obedient to the Lord who founded her and gave to her the sacramental life, celebrates the divine plan of the loving and live-giving union of men and women in the sacrament of marriage. It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behavior therefore acts immorally.”

“To choose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent”.

...Some maintain that same sex attraction is a genetic predisposition. This is disputed. Even if it were the case, that does not give homosexual activity any more of a claim to being given a special civil rights status. Should we really give disordered appetites civil rights status under the law? Let’s consider an absurd example. I have struggled most of my life with fighting obesity. I am on the “winning end” lately, but just give me another Holiday! A very good argument can be made that obesity also has a genetic predisposition. However, I will fight it my whole life because it is unhealthy. It is a disordered appetite. Should we as a Nation decide that fat people have a civil right to be fat? Should those who insist that they resist that “genetic predisposition” to overeat be called Fata-phobic?

Disordered appetites - and the actions engaged in by those who give into them – simply should not be called civil rights. Certainly, those who succumb to them should be treated with the human dignity that they deserve and not be discriminated against. However, that is because they are human not because of their behavior! Homosexual sexual acts are simply homosexual sexual acts. Our bodies do not lie, they speak the language written within their constitution and confirmed in the Natural Law which binds us all.

Now since I belong to these two groups he brings up—fat and gay—I ask this question, does being overweight/obese mean you have fewer civil rights than a thin person? We’re not talking about actuarial tables, pre-existing conditions or cost of health care here—those are certainly debatable topics (and policies are being affected by the debate). We’re talking about a man who is actually saying that being gay (or overweight) itself is grounds to be considered “less than.” I doubt he’s the only one who believes this, and it’s a pathological cultural problem on both calls.
The question Fournier asks is “Should we as a Nation decide that fat people have a civil right to be fat?” His bias is embedded in the question. The appropriate question, IMHO, is whether those who are fat (regardless of cause or desire) should be discriminated against by law in regards to civil rights? Based on his argument, the answer would be yes. The fact is that the obese already have to deal with social scorn and stigma (note the reflexive fat-bashing by some in comments over at my pad), higher premiums and usually die younger anyway. And not every fat person has an eating disorder (most anorexics are clearly not obese; and they do have an eating disorder). Anyway, if it were that easy a task to shed the pounds (and never regain them, which is the larger problem for most), I think we’d see more thin people around than we currently do, and Fournier could sleep better at night on that count.

If the crux of his argument that eating itself is a controllable behavior, the answer is yes and no—as human beings we HAVE to eat or we die. The issue he’s pointing to is choice of what we ingest, how often, what we do about it, etc. As we all know, there are thin people who can eat like horses and not gain weight, as well as heavy people who look at food and the pounds leap on. Everyone has a different metabolism. Most people want to lose weight rather than be fat, but how, when, why or if that occurs not under Fournier’s control (though it appears he may relish that), who in the meantime gets his jollies passing judgment (isn’t that up to the Big Guy Upstairs, or did he forget that bit?). Obesity is a disease; homosexuality is not. But Fournier clearly believes otherwise.

It’s true that all humans are physically capable of copulating with an opposite-sex human being. That doesn’t mean their brains were wired to desire that, nor does that mean the wiring is defective. Fournier is arguing the wiring and resulting behavior is defective, therefore comparable to an eating disorder that needs to be cured. And here we are, back to the promotion of pray-away-the-gay. And we know how successful that is.

In essence, he thinks affirming the right of two individuals to have legal rights to care for one another and have a family is on its face immoral and illogical because of his belief system—only if they happen to have the same naughty bits. Does this make any sense outside the context of his small world?

Honestly—should we care that Fournier’s kind of thinking—and it is diseased thinking—is promoted as morality? This message is coming from a man who is proud of a church that knowingly shipped around pedophiles to destroy the lives of children and families for years, paying off people to remain silent in their misery, protecting criminals from prosecution under the law, coercing the flock to pay for the church’s misdeeds and immoral buyouts in settlement after settlement? I don’t think there’s a basis here for claiming moral supremacy on any subject, particularly religious or civil marriage.

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Pam Spaulding on 03:46 PM • (36) Comments

Should we as a Nation decide that fat people have a civil right to be fat?

Actually, yes.  There is an unbelievable amount of social pressure to be thin, to eat the ‘right things,’ to deny our appetite and accept the idea that if we don’t look a certain way, we’re weak/stupid/undesirable/self-loathing.  People and institutions discriminate against fat people both in a conscious, systematic way (usually under the guise of ‘it’s for their own good’) and because they just don’t consider the fact that if we don’t blame people for being too tall to comfortably fit in airplane seats, it doesn’t make sense to blame them for being too fat.

And yes, I know - the difference is that fat people choose to be fat, whereas tall people just happened to be born that way.  Why does that reasoning sound familiar?

People have a right to not conform to society’s ideals.  People have a right to be fat, or tall, or healthy, or gay, or disabled, or thinner-than-you-find-attractive, or sick, and still be treated equally under the law.  Period.

Comment #1: msarden  on  06/07  at  04:13 PM

I agree with you: Fournier is wrong on so many levels – for comparing homosexuality to anything disordered, and because he thinks people who are either over or underweight should be denied freedom from discrimination.

This fits into a larger picture where any “self-inflicted deviation from the norm” – including religion – can be seen as an excuse to deny someone equal rights. And that, right there, would put *Deacon* Fournier in a rather delicate position should he find himself as part of a religious minority.

Comment #2: Nil  on  06/07  at  04:19 PM

So, is he saying being fat should be illegal? Or just that fat people shouldn’t be allowed to marry? I wonder what the average BMI of the Catholic Church’s inner circle is… not that it matters, because whatever weight an old, white, Catholic guy is, that’s the right weight for him. Just like groping choir boys doesn’t make you a pedophile, it just means you *really* love kids.

“That’s not body fat, that’s the weight of all my moral responsibilities!”

Comment #3: Zef  on  06/07  at  04:23 PM

As wrong as that is, it is an improvement from the Catholic church. The church is terrified of societal acceptance of gays because then where would they get new priests?

Comment #4: pablo  on  06/07  at  04:24 PM

Why is EVERY minor deviation from somebody’s sexual “norm” always compared to eating disorders? This week’s “Ask Professor Foxy” at feministing already has about twelve billion comments comparing not having sex to starving yourself.

Eating wrongly enough, whether starving oneself, gorging oneself, or not varying one’s diet, leads to malnutrition. MALNUTRITION KKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSS YYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. Not being a straight white cis person who shags regularly but only within the bounds of marriage and then only for the purposes of procreation and certainly not enjoying it? Has so far not been proven to be necessarily fatal.

How do people fuck that one up so often?

Comment #5: thecynicalromantic  on  06/07  at  04:34 PM

The idea of anyone taking any Catholic leader seriously on the topic of sexuality is just so ridiculous that the fact that his ideas are ridiculous is only icing on the cake.

Comment #6: Punditus Maximus  on  06/07  at  04:46 PM

The appropriate question, IMHO, is whether those who are fat (regardless of cause or desire) should be discriminated against by law in regards to civil rights? Based on his argument, the answer would be yes.

Obesity is a problem that takes care of itself, as you said. Fat people have to deal with social stigma and health problems; God’s already got them in hand and doesn’t need his faithful soldiers’ help in dealing with them. It does get to be a problem when people start making you feel bad about making witless fat jokes, but at least the obese aren’t going unpunished for the sin of enjoying food.

Gays are a much bigger problem. They’re being rewarded for their sinfulness with social acceptance, happy, functioning relationships, and more self-esteem and emotional security than the average wingnut oxygen thief could ever dream of having. And it’s just getting worse as the average person becomes less homophobic and starts wondering what the big fucking deal is.

What Fournier really wants is the “right” to be an asshole without ever being called on it or disagreed with, as well as the right to have others think he’s as special and important as he wants to be. That you actively don’t care what he thinks of your relationship or your BMI, and would continue to live as if his opinion doesn’t matter, hurts because it deprives him of the attention and validation he needs to be content with himself.

Comment #7: junk science  on  06/07  at  05:02 PM

“To choose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design.

You know, I think this is the very first time I’ve ever seen sex described as symbolic of anything else…

Comment #8: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/07  at  05:15 PM

It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behavior therefore acts immorally.

Why?

“To choose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design.

Why?

This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent”.

God Who Is Apparently Created In This Self-Righteous Fuckwit’s Own Image, WHY?!

This is all so arbitrary—-from “homosexual behavior is wrong” to “procreation is the only point of sex” and WHY?  We have orgasms, sensual pleasure, reassurance and relaxation, friendship, emotional closeness and romantic love, all provided by same-sex relationships as efficiently as opposite-sex ones, and all this in the same quality and quantity, is worthless without the pregnancy-potential that not everyone wants, and even fewer people want as often as they want sex?

This is ridiculous.  Prove it, asshole!  Prove it, if you want me to cut my dating pool in half and then demand I pay for sex by bearing and raising children I don’t want!

Ask anyone who’s in love, gay or straight: they will tell you that it’s worth a great deal.  We are sentient beings here, with diverse likes and wants and values; we want different things out of life.  We don’t all want babies and lots of us think sex is great solely on the basis of what it provides to us as we have it.  If God meant to create us otherwise, he failed at it, miserably.

Our bodies do not lie, they speak the language written within their constitution and confirmed in the Natural Law which binds us all.

Fuck yeah—-you’re absolutely right here.  They just don’t say what you think they say.

(Also?  That bit about gay sex being self-indulgent?  Gay sex, by definition, involves another person.  And if done properly, it involves both people enjoying themselves.  See that?  That’s two people providing each other with pleasure and often with companionship and love, besides, and most good lovers will tell you that providing your partner with enjoyment is an important part of the fun.  That is pretty much the opposite of self-indulgent, right there.)

Comment #9: Kyra  on  06/07  at  05:54 PM

Somebody needs to explain something to this loser:

NOBODY is asking the Catholic Church to stop teaching Catholic Doctrine to Catholics.

What he doesn’t get is that CATHOLIC DOCTRINE is for CATHOLICS and not to be made into LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES, individual states, municipalities, etc.

That is what is called the Separation of Church and State.  And unless the Catholics would like the fundnut Protestant Evangelicals to tell them what to do and how to live, they better get that right quick!

Comment #10: Ms Kate  on  06/07  at  06:21 PM

Maybe we could compromise about this; we can let the Catholic church refuse to marry gay Catholics to each other in a Catholic religious ceremony, and we can let the gay people who want to get married do so in a legally binding ceremony, maybe called, um, hmmm, what to call it now? Oh yeah, civil marriage!  And of course, the churches and religions that approve of gay marriages can have their own religious ceremonies for religious gay marriages!

Comment #11: syfr  on  06/07  at  07:01 PM

“Should we as a Nation decide that fat people have a civil right to be fat? “

We not only should, but we have. The government is allowed to, and does, encourage people to maintain a healthy weight and get exercise, but except for military personnel, police, and probably a few other exceptions, it has no right to tell people what weight they are allowed to be. Furthermore, if someone gained an unacceptable amount of weight as, say, a policeman, they would not be locked up and forced to starve down on a minimum diet, but rather, they would be assigned to desk duty or placed on leave until they A) voluntarily slimmed B) were no longer an asset and got fired or C) quit to pursue a less physical career. And the military would probably give a medical discharge to a soldier with an unfortunate condition that allowed him to get fat on military rations.

The only time the government can mandate a diet is in time of extreme scarcity. I know there were ration books in WWII. Even then, it limited what you could buy. I think if you wanted to keep sheep on your front lawn, no one could confiscate the sheep’s milk, lamb, or mutton that you’d raised for your own consumption.

Comment #12: Samantha Vimes  on  06/07  at  07:06 PM

So the government should regulate the kinds of relationships people are allowed to have, when women should have babies, AND what we can or can’t eat, but under no circumstances is it to regulate international trade, carbon emissions, or union-busting programs, and it definitely should not ensure that all citizens have health care.  That’s what it means to maintain sufficient Jesusness?

Comment #13: jTuba  on  06/07  at  07:29 PM

Religion in America in a nutshell:

Kind, unselfish religious person: “God loves us all, so I should endeavor to love everyone.”

Unkind, selfish, religious person: “I hate gays, so God must too.”

Guess which one gets the most credit for being religious.

Comment #14: Kyra  on  06/07  at  07:48 PM

Furthermore, if someone gained an unacceptable amount of weight as, say, a policeman, they would not be locked up and forced to starve down on a minimum diet, but rather, they would be assigned to desk duty or placed on leave until they A) voluntarily slimmed B) were no longer an asset and got fired or C) quit to pursue a less physical career. And the military would probably give a medical discharge to a soldier with an unfortunate condition that allowed him to get fat on military rations.

The only time the government can mandate a diet is in time of extreme scarcity. I know there were ration books in WWII. Even then, it limited what you could buy. I think if you wanted to keep sheep on your front lawn, no one could confiscate the sheep’s milk, lamb, or mutton that you’d raised for your own consumption.

Samantha Vimes on 06/07 at 06:06 PM

I think it’s the case that even for police and firefighters that being overweight alone can’t get one fired.  They must prove that weight prevents one from doing one’s job or contributes to being unable to in some relevant way - otherwise, it is discrimination.  Hence - fat guy/gal can run x distance in y minutes, can’t be fired.  Firefighter might be a bit different, because other firefighters may need to carry you out of a burning building.  But then they would also have to ban the really tall guy who also happend to weight 280 as well as the average height guy who weighted the same.

Comment #15: phylosopher  on  06/07  at  08:24 PM

Now I’m not-so-hypothetically imagining just what civil rights this turd wants to deny fat people to make them analagous to same-sex couples:

During visiting hours, hospitals with activate BMI-operated door locks, so that fat people can’t comfort their spouses, and an necessary third-party medical decisions will be made by the closest blood relative with a BMI under 25.

Fat people’s spouses and minor children will no longer be allowed to collect social security survivor’s benefits, because that would be bilking the government.

“Married filing jointly” will have to include an affadavit that both partners’ BMI has not exceeded 29 during the taxable year in question; in case of audit, notarized weight logs will be required.

People applying for a security clearance must prove that they are not now, nor have they ever been fat, because otherwise enemy spies could instantly make them into turncoats by offering a lifetime of snickers bars…

Comment #16: paul  on  06/07  at  09:24 PM

Phylosopher, when I said “no longer an asset” before being fired, I meant that not only could they not perform field duties, but there would also need to be a problem with assigning them to another role; for example, if they could only work desk duty AND there were extreme budget cuts forcing them to lay off *someone*, then it *might* be possible to fire them, not “for being overweight” but for “being unable to perform vital duties when we need all employees to be versatile.”

And actually, we do have kind of a stereotype in our culture of the corpulent sheriff or police chief, but I was thinking of the standards some areas have that are very demanding, and, of course, not merely overweight, but at the higher end. Being 20 pounds above ideal won’t knock anyone out of the running. I was just trying to stretch my mind for some example where some government agency would have any authority on fatness.

Frankly, I don’t think that deacon actually knows what a civil right is.

Comment #17: Samantha Vimes  on  06/07  at  09:36 PM

Samantha, just to clear up the way the military works with overweightness (for information), they will take you and, if you do not have a medical condition that has put you on light (short-term limitations) or limited (long-term limitations) duty, they will put you into a mandatory exercise program for a period of six months (generally), called either BCP (cannot pass a PFT) or PCP (overweight, regardless of physical fitness).  If, within the six months given, you do not conform to uniform weight regulations, they will often separate you.

And that also means that people like me, who had well-documented health problems (a heart problem as well as difficulties stemming from a ruptured L5 in my second year of enlistment) but also had insufficient medical care (they were very hesitant to convene a lim-duty board for me because hell if I know), often got shunted to the side and shamed and kicked out.  I didn’t because of the timing of things, but I know people who did.

I am a Marine in the inactive reserves; I do not know if the other services do it differently.

Comment #18: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/07  at  10:22 PM

What a moron. It’s a sad state the RCC is in. Since the release of Humanae Vitae, the church has been systematically excommunicating its best, it’s good, and its adequate clergy—anyone with the intelligence or morality to speak up (or “back”) to the church. Now the clergy is disproportionately filled with yesmen, idiots, and criminals. To the detriment of everyone in the world, Catholic or no.

Comment #19: Diane  on  06/07  at  11:10 PM

Huh.  I attended a Catholic college in Ohio where Mr. Fournier served as Dean of Students for my first year or two.  Perhaps he needs to recall his affair with a 16 yo ballerina and shut the fuck up.

Comment #20: akshelby  on  06/08  at  12:39 AM

Samantha, the government can confiscate food grown for your own consumption (see Wickard v. Filburn) but only for economic reasons. Not cause they think it’ll change your weight.

Comment #21: The Erl  on  06/08  at  01:31 AM

Cisco certification 642-426 exam contains various important topics. Cisco certification 000-330 exam is also known as Cisco640-802 Certified Network Associate 70-562 certification Exam.

Comment #22: Jhonson  on  06/08  at  02:31 AM

Well, the Catholic church’s “solution” to both of these problems is guilt and shame, and we’ve all seen how well that works for “fixing” overweight people or gay people.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  06/08  at  10:23 AM

Furthermore, if someone gained an unacceptable amount of weight as, say, a policeman, they would not be locked up and forced to starve down on a minimum diet, but rather, they would be assigned to desk duty or placed on leave until they A) voluntarily slimmed B) were no longer an asset and got fired or C) quit to pursue a less physical career.

Or, D) were assigned to bike patrol.

Seriously, that’s what our local police force did when a very popular bike path running the length of the community opened up (about 4-5 miles).  They took the guys who were healthy but didn’t make weight, gave them the spandex uniforms, and told them to hit the trail.  Problem was, many of those who ended up biking 20 to 30 miles a day while free feeding on the donuts didn’t want to hand the bikes over when somebody else needed the exercise.

Comment #24: Ms Kate  on  06/08  at  10:33 AM

Considering the shambles their church has become, somebody really needs to tell conservatard Catholics about the first rule of homes.

Comment #25: Steve LaBonne  on  06/08  at  11:23 AM

HOLES that is. I will now go write “I will use preview” 100 times…

Comment #26: Steve LaBonne  on  06/08  at  11:24 AM

The only time the government can mandate a diet is in time of extreme scarcity. I know there were ration books in WWII. Even then, it limited what you could buy. I think if you wanted to keep sheep on your front lawn, no one could confiscate the sheep’s milk, lamb, or mutton that you’d raised for your own consumption.

Actually, in practicality, you would be wrong, SV.  If you produced your own food, your ration allowance could be reduced because you did not need it.  This happened to many in farming comunities during WWII. 
Anicdata-
My spouse’s aunt was a Home Ec teacher and associated with the Extension Service in SE Idaho at the start of WWII.  She was part of the group who distributed the ration cupouns.  They reviewed and reduced in the agricultural area where she was, per the national guidelines, due to self-reported and group-reported existant supplies and self/family-production.  This was a big issue with the large LDS population in the area as everyone knew you were religiously required to keep emergency rations, often had bragged of maintaining the required levels in the past, so could not easily deny them once an actual emergency, like war, occurred.

Comment #27: helen w. h.  on  06/08  at  12:20 PM

It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behavior therefore acts immorally.”

Says who?  Immorally how?  Want to explain to me how this isn’t just jealousy sprung from a bunch of men who chose celibacy and are now stuck there?  Who have really twisted ideas about sex, and make up goofy rules b/c they have decided to abstain and by their abstention are ‘more’ holy?

Just b/c Paul was a weirdo, doesn’t mean the rest of us have to be as well.

“To choose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design.

Why?  The Creator’s sexual design included homosexuals.  They are found in all societies, and, indeed, in other species.  They are quite apparently part of the “design”. 

Honest to God, these assholes need to stop thinking about what other people do in the privacy of their bedrooms and get to work on taking care of the sick, poor, and imprisoned, as Jesus told them to.

Comment #28: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/08  at  12:50 PM

Huh.  I attended a Catholic college in Ohio where Mr. Fournier served as Dean of Students for my first year or two.  Perhaps he needs to recall his affair with a 16 yo ballerina and shut the fuck up.

askshelby wins the thread!

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/08  at  12:59 PM

And it’s true, too.  I was good friends with the ballerinas friend who would drive her to her trysts with him.  He was a smug bastard.

Comment #30: akshelby  on  06/08  at  01:45 PM

Frankly, I don’t think that deacon actually knows what a civil right is.

For wingnuts, civil rights are indistinguishable from their own personal approval. If it grosses them out, it cannot possibly be legal, moral, or acceptable. That there are actual civil rights in the world, which allow people to do things, never occurs to them—because nobody ever tries to prevent them from doing anything.

They also labor under the delusion that any of us heathens hunger for their A-OK.

Comment #31: Well, what?  on  06/08  at  01:46 PM

Fornier’s Gangrene

Comment #32: Ms Kate  on  06/08  at  01:48 PM

Akshelby, as much as I am predisposed to believe you, did anything ever happen to Decon Fornication?  Like, was there press on it, or a disciplinary hearing or something?

If we don’t ask these questions, we risk being like the reichwing - believing “truthy” tales that fit our world view.

Comment #33: Ms Kate  on  06/08  at  02:06 PM

No.  Neither I, nor anybody said anything.  By the time I was told about it, she had already gone off to college and it was over and done with.

Comment #34: akshelby  on  06/08  at  02:55 PM

Well, at least they will have somebody to cast in the role of Offred for the ballet production of The Handmaid’s Tale ...

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  06/08  at  04:31 PM

Sooo….ummm

Weighty people shouldn’t get married either?

I mean, it makes as much sense as what he’s saying, no.

Come to think of it, corn dogs are a civil right, sort of.

Comment #36: Magis  on  06/08  at  07:23 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.