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Next entry: Simple answers to simple questions Previous entry: OMFAlthouse

Cheating is the system, or how my phone bill woes demonstrate what destroyed the economy

ChoadsEconomy

Jesus H. motherfucking Christ, am I pissed.  I canceled my Tmobile contract back in February, roughly the day my contract obligations ran out, because I wanted to get an iPhone and be on AT&T.  I must have asked the woman who canceled my phone a dozen times if it was really, truly over, and she assured me that the phone would be shut down.  My mistake was believing that it would be so simple, and throwing the beaten-up, barely surviving phone away.  But since I had a) called ahead of time to warn them I was canceling and b) I was reassured a bunch of times that my contract would be canceled because I canceled it. 

You can imagine my surprise to get a bill from Tmobile for $52 for a month of service that happened after it was canceled.  Of course, it had no minutes on it, due to it being canceled.  But there it was—-$52 about to be debited from my checking account for a phone I don’t use, because I fucking canceled it. 

When shit like this happens, I get catatonic from cognitive dissonance.  On one hand, I’m livid.  There’s very little doubt that the phone companies have some sort of internal process to make sure to “forget” these sort of cancellations, knowing as they do that a certain percentage of customers will just keep paying the bill without noticing, because it’s an automatic debit.  Due to this, some motherfucker deserves the wrath of a screaming, pissed off Texan.  However, I’m also aware the the person assigned to absorb this wrath is a peon whose complicity in this dark system can be forgiven due to economic necessity.  I do not enjoy yelling at relatively blameless customer service people who probably get drunk with their coworkers on Friday night and talk about how much they hate working there precisely because they’re told to “forget” to stop billing people and then they get yelled at for it.  However, I was shaking from anger at this blatant sleaziness, so I was rather short with the poor woman who picked up the phone.  Luckily for both of us, she knew immediately what was going on and shunted me directly to a manager. Who says he fixed the problem, but now I have to watch my stuff like a hawk to make absolutely sure, because god only knows what rules that poor guy is working under.

Is it possible that someone actually forgot to cancel my service?  In the same sense that it’s possible that the pope forgets that condoms have been scientifically proven to stop the spread of HIV.  The second I put my complaint on Twitter, a bunch of people on Twitter and Facebook said that the same thing happened to them or someone they know.  At best, Tmobile (and other phone companies with the same problem) deliberately refuse to install software that automatically shuts down everything when a customer service rep cancels the service.  But I wouldn’t put it past them to apply pressure to “forget” to cancel services, especially those with automatic debits. 


But of course, I sound paranoid for saying this.  We all need to believe that the collective corporate behemouths are somehow prevented—-either through regulation, fear of reprisal, or their better angels (since the rich are morally superior, right?)—-from looking for every avenue to take money from us. But in reality, using some bookkeeping tricks and some dishonest ploys to get to the point where you’re basically stealing is probably even preferred, as it seems so creative, and the guy who comes up with it gets called a wunderkind.  But the collective unwillingness to believe that they are in fact out to screw us is, I suspect, why the Obama administration is going to keep shoveling money over to bankers who probably intend to wipe their asses with it.  They can’t be that base and evil, can they?  Yes, yes they can

Let’s face it.  There’s almost no way they can lose by charging me for shit I explicitly didn’t buy.  I’ll be lucky if they actually do take the charge off my account like they said they will without me calling and screaming until some poor customer service representative gets tired of me.  Because what can I do but scream?  Hiring a lawyer to get $52 out of them is stupid.  If it gets sent to a collection agency, the stone wall between me and justice will get thicker, and should I ever wish to do something like sign up for electricity or a phone without paying hundreds of dollars for a “deposit” I’ll never see again, I’ll have to pay that $52 to get it off my credit history.  I dread to tell you the things I’ve just paid to get it off my credit history so I could get a mortgage in the past without being shifted into some subprime piece of shit.  Let’s just say that I paid off bills that my then-boyfriend’s ex-girlfriend racked up (Or did she?  Perhaps she was getting the same kind of screws put to her.), because otherwise they were going to get way more money out of me in interest payments.  The system is set up to be extortionist.

This is no doubt why the lenders getting behind these various toxic assets, as well as those who bundled them and those who insured them, thought it was no big deal.  They’ve been squeezing the little guy for so long that the schemes to do so got bigger and bigger, because they made the mistake of thinking the little guy would always decide, at the end of the day, that it was easier to pay than to fight.  The logic on a lot of mortgages is that people will pretty much sell their children to keep their houses, you know, and if you doubt it, I suggest asking any mortgage underwriter exactly how they rank what bills get paid first when trying to figure out if someone’s going to be good for a mortgage payment.  What they failed to take into account is that there is a point where you can no longer get blood from a stone.  Or that people who will spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to clear up a credit history littered with unfair charges, open theft, jacked up interest rates, or other creative schemes to be like, “Whoops, you owe us a shit ton of money” will start to balk when the price tag reaches into hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is exactly what happens when you jack up the interest rate on a VRM or someone buys a house only to see the property value cut in half.  What’s the price of a good credit history?  Apparently, it falls below the $200,000 mark. 

When so much of your economy is built on manipulating the basic enforcement techniques to get money people genuinely owe you to get all sorts of money they don’t, in a just system, owe you, things are going to fall apart.  But sure enough, without most of the public realizing it, we moved to a system where people were selling stuff with no value, using outrageous forms of usury to squeeze blood from stones, and just generally trying to use deceit and extortion to make money instead of offering goods and services for a price, which is apparently not fun enough of a way to make money.  But as long as the government refuses to regulate and even bails people out for this crap, there’s no incentive to quit.

I mean, Jesus, at least GM was basically trying to make money by selling cars instead of bullshit.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:40 PM • (98) Comments

Hold it. The capitalist class is comprised of blood-sucking parasites?

*faints*

Comment #1: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/30  at  08:49 PM

I’ll add that I don’t think this entire situation wouldn’t have pissed me off so badly if we weren’t shoveling money by the truckloads to a bunch of people that I suspect have exactly zero intention of doing the right thing with it.  But the ramifications of the routine evils of blood-sucking parasitism really got to me, and I suspect I’m not the only one.  I feel so helpless—-no one will stop it!

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  08:51 PM

Has anyone ever heard of a corporation- phone company, cable company, ISP, insurance company, whatever- forgetting to send you a bill?  Ever heard of one accidentally giving you a month of free service and not charging for it?

If mistakes happened about as frequently in customers’ favor, I’d call them mistakes.  They never do.  They are not mistakes.

Comment #3: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  03/30  at  08:53 PM

<semi-joking trolling moment>
It’s your punishment for wanting an Apple product.

Yeah.  I’m a PC and I can actually do things with my hardware.
</semi-joking trolling moment>

All the telecom companies pull this shit merely because they can.  It’s part of the reason I just stopped going to work when I got tired of Dickular… er… AT&T;‘s crap towards their customers.  That said, AT&T;is a union shop and the company itself treated me really well, so good on you for going with a company that treats it’s employees well.

Comment #4: Spooky Skeptic  on  03/30  at  08:54 PM

Nothing would make me happier than a few malefactors of great wealth swinging from lampposts…and I’m only half-joking.

Comment #5: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/30  at  08:57 PM

That’s good to know.  If the guys trying to screw you on the other end at least feel bad about it, I tend to calm down faster.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  08:57 PM

It’s as bad or worse with health insurance.  I temped for 2 weeks for a medical services company, in their billing department.  I remember overhearing the following:

Biller:  Aetna keeps turning us down, we never get any money from them.

Manager:  Are these first submissions?

Biller:  yes, they keep turning us down.

Manager:  Just resubmit.  Aetna turns down everything the first time, even stuff they’re supposed to cover.  Resubmit and it’ll go through.

Biller:  I don’t understand.

Manager:  It’s because people see that they’ve been turned down and don’t resubmit, they just pay the bill.

Comment #7: Siobhan  on  03/30  at  08:58 PM

To their credit also, AT&T;does a good job of letting their reps help people.  Then again, they won’t prorate the last month of your service either, so if you wanna switch later, wait until the end of your billing cycle.  I’m curious, though, did you port out your number or did you take a new number?

Comment #8: Spooky Skeptic  on  03/30  at  09:01 PM

New number, because my old one was littered with persistent telemarketers.  Sadly, I got a number from a guy that probably lost it because he couldn’t pay his phone bill, since now I’m the happy recipient of multiple calls from collection agencies looking for a guy named Gary.  I explain that this is no longer Gary’s number, but of course they have no way to change the account to reflect that, because the assholes trying to screw Gary assume that everyone else is as big an asshole as them.  So of course I’m hiding Gary and his big pile of cash somewhere, and there’s no way that my story (that this is a new number, that Gary probably didn’t pay his phone bill) could possibly be true, even though they have the evidence in hand that Gary is not paying bills.

*sigh*

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  09:05 PM

Sometimes I think we should just scrape this economy and start over.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  09:06 PM

It would be super if we could get some government protections from these types of things now that we’ve got Democrats running things.

Excellent rant, by the way. Keep up the good work!

Comment #11: Entomologista  on  03/30  at  09:08 PM

It’s not just about automatic debits.  I bet these companies are banking on some customers being forgetful, too busy, or just generally too addled to call and raise a fuss.  This shit happens to the elderly all the time.  I once got a bill for a book that I did not order or receive (supposedly one of those scams where companies send you shit and put it on you to send it back if you don’t want it).  When I called to complain, after waiting for 30 minutes on hold, the customer service rep immediately cancelled the charges, just a little too fast if you ask me.  I’m certain that type of scam is designed for many elderly people who immediately pay bills when they receive them.

It also might be a good idea to set up automatic payment with a credit card, rather than a checking account.  I’ve always done that, because I’m too wary of companies overcharging me or “forgetting” to cancel a service, which is much more of a pain in the ass to resolve once they have your money and risks overdrawing the checking account.

Comment #12: keshmeshi  on  03/30  at  09:10 PM

It would be super if we could get some government protections from these types of things now that we’ve got Democrats running things.

Why would the Democratic Party be interested in fixing this? They’re almost equally as corporatist.

Comment #13: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/30  at  09:12 PM

If you had ported your number, I’d suggest you visit the FTC about being billed for something that basically no longer exists.  A lot of your phone bill is going to be the rough equivalent of rent for that number.  If you’ve had that new number for less than 90 days, nearly any rep I know would give you a new number without the fee.  If it’s less than 30, I’m pretty sure it’s still a courtesy they do by default After that, it might be an issue because they’ll think you should have called in sooner.  If the collections calls are actually coming from AT&T;or an agent they hired, then they need to know because it can be fixed.  It’s one of the weirder things I used to see.

Comment #14: Spooky Skeptic  on  03/30  at  09:16 PM

Every time I start to feel weird about having a debit/check card with no credit cards and a prepaid cell phone account, I hear these stories and think, “Well, at least I’m only getting screwed by one bank’s fees.”

CapitalOne is notorious for playing games with your credit card, but they’re not the only ones.

It’s so bad that we had trouble canceling our frickin’ subscription to the LA Times because they kept playing games with the bills and adding days we didn’t want.

Comment #15: Mnemosyne  on  03/30  at  09:19 PM

It’s not even companies you buy shit from that do this—employers do this crap too.

I’m a sub in the local public school district and they have a new group of people running our sub office here.  Last semester I was part time, because I also teach part time at the local U and I got an extra class that was Monday and Wednesday mornings, so I couldn’t sub every day.  Now here, the full time subs get paid almost $20 more per day than the part time subs, as compensation for being available all the time.  So for about 4 weeks last fall, they had misclassified me as full time and were paying me at the higher rate before they caught their mistake.  Luckily, I also caught that mistake and put that money aside, just in case.  And it’s a good thing I did, because that was $200 I had to pay back.

So, okay and fine.  However, starting in January, I was supposed to be back to full time again and I dutifully filed my paperwork in December so that my file would reflect this.  I also called multiple times to make sure that they had my paperwork and had made the note in my file to reflect the change and was assured each time that it was so.  However, it apparently was not so, because even though I worked every day from January to March, I was getting paid at the lower part time rate.  When I finally got someone to actually notice this in the office over there, my paperwork had been miraculously “lost” and they had no record of the changes in my status, so I had to refile the paperwork.  Now, since the beginning of the month, I’ve been getting paid at the higher rate, but I’ll never see that 8 weeks worth of extra pay again (about $800), since I have no proof that they had my stuff—only my word against theirs.

And, I’m afraid to file a complaint with the union (even though the sub office has been absolutely awful this year and everybody and their brother is filing complaints) because then you mysteriously don’t get called to work as much, etc., and I have an application in for a full time, actual teaching job for fall that I have a pretty good shot at getting, so long as I don’t piss anybody off.

I’m really pissed at the world right about now.

Comment #16: ks  on  03/30  at  09:21 PM

Oh, and I keep getting calls from a collection agency claiming I have to pay them $500 for the outstanding balance on a credit card I canceled twenty years ago.  So not joking.  They claim that the seven-year statutory limit applies from when they buy the debt from the previous party, not from when I canceled the card.

Of course, there’s also the fact that I paid off the card 20 years ago but no longer have the canceled check, but that’s a minor part of the story at this point.

Comment #17: Mnemosyne  on  03/30  at  09:25 PM

These aren’t mistakes. I had that happen with Credo Wireless. I’ve had it happen with Comcast internet service. I’ve had it happen with hospitals who were theoretically giving me financial assistance with my bills.  And my inborn aversion to dealing with shit like this means that I have a really hard time yelling and screaming at the poor call center employee as much as is necessary to get their employers to not screw me.

Comment #18: cedarcrane  on  03/30  at  09:26 PM

Here’s the totalitarianism of 1984 and Brave New World, combined with the extreme corporatism of Rollerball.  But the real difference is how the incompetence of the various bureaucracies overshadows everything else, like in Brazil.

My wife has the right (bad) attitude about this kind of thing.  By the time she got done with them not only would we get the money back, she’d probably get them to pay for three months with the other carrier…

Comment #19: MikeEss  on  03/30  at  09:31 PM

AOL used to pull this shit in the 90s. They went bankrupt eventually.

Comment #20: Ben D.  on  03/30  at  09:36 PM

Something I’ve found that works better than screaming, which while somewhat cathartic, doesn’t get much done and it aimed at the wrong person, is writing a letter, complete with a CC: at the bottom that says which federal government agency you sent a copy of your complaint to in writing. With Sprint, I copied both the California consumer protection agency and the FCC, and I had my problem resolved, complete with a $322 credit to my account, within five days. It doesn’t always work, but it’s the only way I’ve ever had success. I’ve never gotten what I wanted talking to someone on the phone.

Comment #21: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  03/30  at  09:41 PM

Always always always get the name of the person you’re dealing with when you cancel anything. It’s amazing how quickly they backtrack when you can recite the name and date of your initial interaction. Also - to resolve your guilt about yelling at the peon, don’t even talk to them, just ask for the supervisor right off the bat. Then, if they refuse to put you through to the supervisor, you can rant with a clear conscience.

Comment #22: flory  on  03/30  at  09:45 PM

“They claim that the seven-year statutory limit applies from when they buy the debt from the previous party, not from when I canceled the card. “

Bullshit, but you knew that.  They are preying on people who don’t know that. 

T

Comment #23: seeker6079  on  03/30  at  09:47 PM

What I despise is the fact that their departments don’t talk to one another, even when they are operating in good faith.  I had endless problems with TD Bank, an honest outfit, because their collections department kept screaming at me for things that I had amicably switched around with my bank manager.

Comment #24: seeker6079  on  03/30  at  09:49 PM

A lot places, flory, do not work like that.  If you call or go to a business, many of them have rules against the first people you deal with transferring you at all or without certain conditions being met.

Comment #25: Spooky Skeptic  on  03/30  at  09:50 PM

Lesson: do it over the web and print the receipt to a .pdf.  This is why I avoid calling unless I cannot avoid calling.  You need something in writing.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  03/30  at  09:57 PM

Maybe Megan McArdle can write a Galtian defense of Tmobile and demonstrate that you aren’t being a good enough capitalist by paying Tmobile extra.

Comment #27: Amanda in the South Bay  on  03/30  at  10:07 PM

#1. As someone who has done (and is doing a variant of that work, I guess), those database systems go down. A lot.

The most common reason, is that the person you’re talking to is taking 8-10 calls an hour. System goes down, sometimes they think that it went through, and it did on their front end, but it didn’t on the back end. Or it’s down and they write down your information but they never get a chance to put it in. Or they don’t care enough to do so. (Of course, they’d be working UNPAID overtime to get that information in)

They don’t have to conspire. You just set up an impossible situation for your customer service folks and they’ll do it all for you.

#2. It’s not about the Democrats being “corporatist”. It’s about them, like everybody else in our bloody society being a fucking slave to the upper middle and lower upper class. Do you know WHY Obama is going the route he’s going? To protect the fucking 401ks. To protect retirement investments. Can he say this? No. Because that starts the run. So he’s stuck doing this black ops shit to avoid starting the stampede to the exits.

And it may not even work in the first place.

#3. Amanda, the economy may very well need to be reset and dreamed up again from scratch one day. There probably will be no other choice when that day comes. Unfortunately, there’s too many people out there who perceive themselves as being “ahead” for that to happen right now.

Comment #28: Karmakin  on  03/30  at  10:19 PM

The thing that pisses me off to no end is that you don’t own your own information.  There is absolutely no reason why credit bureaus aren’t forced to pay you for giving out your information.

As to call centers, working there is absurd in many ways.  Unlike say the front office, there is no way to shirk even just a bit.  Call times are tracked, down times are tracked, number of calls per period is tracked and calls are recorded and monitored.

Comment #29: Robert  on  03/30  at  10:20 PM

Seems that left and right bloggers agree: TMobile cheats its customers. (Or former customers, in this case.)

Comment #30: SS451  on  03/30  at  10:24 PM

Karma, I’m sure that the system downages and work overloads that just happen to put a lot of people in a position where they have to pay money they don’t really owe—-but never, ever the other way around—-do effectively conceal what’s really going on for people that are, after all, motivated to believe they aren’t part of a bad system.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/30  at  10:26 PM

Ah, Amanda, I feel for you.  My experience went a little like this:

After years of swearing I would never own a Blackberry-like device, my best friend, who was of the same mind, got an I-Phone, gave me a tour, and I had to have one.  For no other reason than it was so cool and user-friendly.  My work life will never touch it.

I was also a T-Mobile customer at the time.  My cell phone seldom rings; I’m old school that way.

Anyway, I wasn’t near as vigilant as you, and just assumed my contract had expired when I bought the I-Phone; as it turned out, two weeks before my actual expiration. 

Naturally, I was billed for the early termination charge.  I wrote a letter, confessing to my own ignorance, but told them both in the letter and in two subsequent phone conversations that, in essence, I was going to get that money back from them one way or another, at fault or not. 

The first conversation was an epic fail, but I stuck with it, which is key.  The theme of my argument was that the telecom business is highly competitive, very “dynamic,” as we say in Corporate America, and if they didn’t waive the fee, which I admitted they had every right not to do, legally and technically, they would ultimately be losing money, since I would not only spend considerable effort discouraging others from choosing their service, but that I would never, ever consider them as a phone provider from that day forward.  I pointed out that if I discouraged one or two potential customers, they lose, financially, compared to me fee included. 

On the second call, just as the first, I said I would happily send in the fee, but explained the price I outlined above.  I was speaking to someone who was sane, and he got it, and he waived the fee.  I told him I would keep T-Mobile in mind when the time came due to his graciousness.  Win-win.

A lifetime of fighting The Man has paid some dividends.  Hang in there.  Be tougher and more relentless than they are.  The Big Players in every industry are running scared, and it is relatively easy to take advantage of if you have the patience.

Never had to send the letter.  Just needed to explain the contents. 

25 years ago, I startled the banking industry in a big way for asking for a service charge on a mistake they freely admitting making processing my student loan payment.  I was asking for $20, and never got it, but by the time it was over had spent what I think conservatively was $1000 of their time chatting about it, verbally and in writing, with my conversational trump card, which after several tellings of the story I knew exactly when to drop, being something along the lines of, “Wait.  What happens to ME when *I* make a mistake with YOU?”  The tongues tied were worth the effort.  I believe it was a VP at the end of the conversation to whom I finally said, after layers of bureaucratic ineptitude, to whom I finally said after being satisfied, “Why on Earth don’t you pull $20 out of your wallet and send it to me just so I stop wasting your resources?”  I never got it, but it was worth it.

Good luck.  And keep up the sterlingly silver work.  I just love it.

J

Comment #32: John O  on  03/30  at  10:26 PM

Amanda:I’m not trying to defend it. Just trying to explain it. The reality is that chances are if you’re talking to customer service, anything they can’t do due to “tools updating” for you is going to be negative. Either you want to cancel your service or go to a cheaper plan or whatever. So you’re screwed in those circumstances. Are there cases where these outages can help you? Yes. But they are very very rare. And people don’t talk about good customer service as much as they talk about bad customer service.

There are exceptions of course.

I work technical support right now. You call in, our database is down, you get free support. Period. Yay. Error in your benefit.

Or if you’re looking to order a part, and the order system is seperate from the billing system (this is rare). They may send it to you for free (I got a part from BFG Tech this way)

And that’s about it.

But these things are from the more technical support side of things. Dealing with Customer Service, if their tools are not working, you’re probably going to get screwed. Which is why it happens so often.

Comment #33: Karmakin  on  03/30  at  10:35 PM

Oh, there’s one other VERY IMPORTANT POINT that I should make. When you’re talking about cancellations, a lot of the time you’re being routed to a queue specifically for cancellations. And a lot of companies reward bonuses to these queues for retaining customers who want to quit. This is another big problem. So individual agents get bonuses by not putting in your cancellation. Not always, not even sometimes. But it does happen once in a while.

Or if there’s no bonuses, they could be fired if they can’t retain people.

If there’s a conspiracy, it’s that.

Comment #34: Karmakin  on  03/30  at  10:38 PM

Not only has this happened to me, but it grew worse.  I cancelled a bank account and let my gym know that the account was closing, and made arrangements for new payment.  I checked and double-checked and double-checked and they swore up and down they had it covered, but guess what, they didn’t.  So when they accessed the account, which also was supposed to be closed by the bank, they found no money.  This triggered overdraft protection tied to a credit card supplied by the bank that I long since had cancelled (because of a previous identity theft situation) and when they tried to send me a bill for that amount, they sent it to an old address, since I wasn’t even in the same city from when that credit card was active.  These are THREE SEPARATE items that I was told were totally closed, yet none of them were.

About a year later, I find out that there’s a collection agency out for me on this credit card charge, and the interest has ballooned to the extent that $30 for a monthly gym membership was now $400 in collections.  Forget trying to explain the above story to anyone.  So I just paid it, two years after the initial charge.

I love consumer affairs!

Comment #35: David Dayen  on  03/30  at  10:47 PM

I would imagine there’s a fair degree of theft by resource allocation too.  Matters which generate revenue get all the new techno toys.  Matters like good customer service get the old shit.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that cell phone companies figured out some time ago that when they, say, piss off 20,000 customers who leave they aren’t, in fact, losing 20,000 customers.  They gain 10,000 each from their competitors A and B who have pissed off a 20,000 of their customers.  As long as everybody treats the customers with the same contempt then nobody actually loses.

Comment #36: seeker6079  on  03/30  at  10:48 PM

since now I’m the happy recipient of multiple calls from collection agencies looking for a guy named Gary.

That’s weird. I get collection-agency robocalls for a guy named “Gary Wayne Neville.” What amuses me is that it’s a robocall that doesn’t explain itself and just says “call this number,” because we all know that’s an effective way of collecting a debt.

Comment #37: Jeff  on  03/30  at  10:53 PM

I had something like this happen to me when I tried to cancel my 24 Hour Fitness membership.  I called their 800 number and it took me several tries to get to a customer service rep.  After being put on hold for 40 minutes, I would give up and decide to try again some other day.  I mean, who the hell has that kind of time to wait?  It totally sucked using my lunch hour over several days trying to cancel the stupid membership.  Anyway, the customer service rep I got was someone in India who, I think, misunderstood my request to have my membership canceled in March.  They finally stopped billing me in May.  Not to diss the Indian woman, but I can’t shake the feeling that one benefit of having offshore call centers is that “misunderstandings” often help the company’s bottom line.

I will never, never, never do business with 24 Hour Fitness again.

Comment #38: Cat Ion  on  03/30  at  10:54 PM

About twenty years ago I worked grocery with a guy who had this knocked, at least so far as his employer was concerned.  He was quiet, wouldn’t say boo to a goose, and the bosses loved him, especially the bullies.  They’d scream at him over something or other and he’d look meek and mild.  And then when they were gone he’d say something like, “that was very rude of him, about $300.00 worth of rude”... and he’d deliberately break something.  He’d “accidentally” rip a phone out of the wall by turning the power jack in the wrong direction, “accidentally” smash stock, or whatever. 

Really, this sort of nonsense from corporations is going to continue until, say, VPs from T Mobile comes out to a burned out car and a note on it that says “when people cancel they should be cancelled”, above a photo of their house. 

I’m not saying that should happen.  I am saying that it would probably work more than a dozen earnest pleas from Congress.  And the companies are rapidly moving to a point where they can’t bitch if they have made damn sure that it is the only thing that will work.

Comment #39: seeker6079  on  03/30  at  10:54 PM

Hi,

I just had to jump in and comment because I used to work for T-Mobile, as a customer service rep. I quit, because being cussed out on a daily basis causes cancer of the psyche.  However, I can testify that there is no policy in place that encourages people to “forget” to cancel service. If a customer calls in and you don’t complete their request, you get in a fair amount of trouble. 

As far as reasons requests wouldn’t get completed at T-Mobile…I think one big reason (other than the occasional stupid/apathetic rep) is how fast they expect people to handle calls and how much other stuff you’re supposed to do at the same time. You’re supposed to handle the original reason for the call, do a visual audit, express “empathy” (but not real empathy, cheap fake empathy) and start at least one conversation about something personal and non-T-Mobile related to build rapport, and document the account….all in an average of 5-6 minutes per call (actually probably less, I haven’t worked there for well over 6 months and they had been dropping the call handling time requirements every couple of months before I left.)

While there’s really no huge conspiracy to “forget” to do things, some supervisors ARE extremely reluctant to give any kind of adjustment. Period. Unless it’s in the notes that they messed up, it’s going to be an uphill battle.  I would recommend asking the employee to read you the notes they are putting on your account before closing the call.

Asking to speak to a supervisor is the best thing, because the same supervisors that love to make their poor employees argue with people over $50.00 don’t have the courage of their convictions when they are faced with a real, live person.  T-Mobile bills a month behind, so you have one more bill coming to you if your service was just canceled. They can’t stop the last bill from going out but they should go back in and adjust the charges since it was supposed to have been canceled a month ago.

Anyway…wow, that was a long first comment. Yet, cathartic, somehow. I think I’m still a little traumatized from working there.

Comment #40: wednesdayaddams  on  03/30  at  11:06 PM

I explain that this is no longer Gary’s number, but of course they have no way to change the account to reflect that, because the assholes trying to screw Gary assume that everyone else is as big an asshole as them.  So of course I’m hiding Gary and his big pile of cash somewhere, and there’s no way that my story

We’ve lived at our ‘new’ house for about 6-7 years now. We got a new phone number when we moved. To this day we still get collection calls for Joana (and occasionally George) and Dean. They don’t seem to believe that we’re not them.

Comment #41: Ruby  on  03/30  at  11:07 PM

I once got a bill for a book that I did not order or receive (supposedly one of those scams where companies send you shit and put it on you to send it back if you don’t want it)....
keshmeshi on 03/30 at 04:10 PM

Ah ‘member back in th’ old days…the Seventies…whan Ah was a wee young’un…

There was this TV ad, actually a Public Service Announcement I guess, by the Post Office. It was humorously done but seriously they were saying that if people sent you unsolicited crap in the mail, you had the right to keep it without payment.

I guess we don’t live in the Seventies any more. Bummer.

Comment #42: Mark Foxwell  on  03/30  at  11:11 PM

With T-Mobile, I might actually believe they forgot. I pay by the month in cash, because my credit rating is so bad that I basically can never again own a credit card and need to use family contacts to get a savings account; my monthly day was coming up, and somehow I talked T-Mobile’s service rep into gracing me 20 mins for emergencies to cover the two days between when my time ran out and my paycheck.

I noticed that somehow, he actually gave me a free month of service. So I didn’t pay until the time ran out…three months later. Even then, I never got charged for those back days…I was somehow listed as ‘paid’ all of those three months and I had no reason to pursue it farther.

I kinda hope you didn’t pay for my free service.

I’m old enough to realize I’m tempermentally unsuited for any kind of relationship, and won’t ever make enough to buy a house on my own, so I find it convienient basically to totally not give a shit about my credit rating and pay cash to credit-card owning people I know to buy things over the internet and shit.

Comment #43: Mark Temporis  on  03/30  at  11:15 PM

We had trouble getting long distance on our land line when we first moved in because the previous owner of this number was a deadbeat. 
Lovely, huh.
A previous phone number had been held by the FHA office.  Even though it had been three or four years, people would pull out their decades old mortgage paperwork and call our phone number.
On the other hand, the cable people came and hooked up our neighbors to a full run of services about a year ago.  We quickly realized that we had extra toys we weren’t paying for.  When our 15 year old TV died in August, we bought a 42” HDTV and sure enough, we had HD too.

Comment #44: Ms Kate  on  03/30  at  11:20 PM

Yeah, this is why I don’t do automatic debit. Once they have your bank account, they will bill away no matter what you tell them, and it’s sheer hell to get rid of those bounce fees. Just not worth it. I pay online, but one-time only, and it’s only a few minutes a week.

I know I am at least occasionally being overbilled for my cell phones, too, but phones are really the biggest scam going; everyone gets screwed; at this point, I keep it to a minimum, and just assume we’re going to need better regulation of these SOBs in the form of consumer protections. Because they never scam me quite enough to make calling them worth my time, which is, yes, quite evil.

The root of it is power; so long as anyone who bills you can ding your credit report, and your credit report is what determines your worth as a borrower, and the agencies who run credit reporting are secretive and corrupt and biased towards business, then they have us by the short and curlies. Otherwise, you could just refuse to pay false charges. The burden of proof needs to be higher before you can be dinged. And the fact that someone has “run your report” should not ever be available to other lenders, much less be some kind of mark against you.

There would probably less profligate consumer lending going on if that happens, but that’s all to the good. It’s stupid that our wages have gotten so stagnant that we have to borrow because we can never possibly save.

Comment #45: emjaybee  on  03/30  at  11:20 PM

I have sprint and last year when I got a new phone I went through so much shit with them over my bills and all these bogus charges they were trying to get me to pay. At first, I’d gotten the “curtesey” call from Sprint asking me if I would like to upgrade myservice, blah, blah, blah and as it just so happens I was in the market for a new phone because the old was was dying and my contract was gonna be up in a few weeks anyway.

The kid on the other end was estatic cause i’m sure he doesn’t get a lot of “yes’s” when he bothers people so he gave me the new phone at the shop discount of $99 straight up, without having to wait for the mail in rebate. I also got a second phone line at no charge, which I gave to my parents as a stocking stuffer gift.

So a few weeks go by and I get my bill and the fuckers charged me the full amount for the damn phone. I put in a call and was eventually transferred to a manager who kept feiging ignorance at what happened, telling me that they weren’t “allowed” to give out the phone for the $99, even though, as I pointed out to him very meanly, THEY WERE SELLING IT IN THE STORE FOR $99. I explained to him that all the kid did was cut out the fucking middle man and the manager told me that they would have to go back and check the phone records to see if I was telling the truth and that would take 7-10 business days and they would call me back.

I was fucking livid. But, as it turns out, even though they didn’t call me back, when I called them and checked my balance it showed that they had indeed taken off the extra money and given me the phone for the $99.

That was not the last problem I had with them, over the next two months there were all sorts of odd charges on my bill and I called for each and every one of them and I guess because it occured to someone that I was actually checking my bill they stopped (for now) and I’ve been paying the regular amount.

I’ve learned my lesson and I don’t do automatic debits anymore, I pay through my bank’s online feature manually each month.

Comment #46: UltraMagnus  on  03/30  at  11:31 PM

Always always always get the name of the person you’re dealing with when you cancel anything. It’s amazing how quickly they backtrack when you can recite the name and date of your initial interaction.

You couldn’t ask for better advice.  Always write down the name of the person you spoke to, the date and the time as well as a very short summary of the interaction.  They will always back down if you can provide that info.

As to getting freebies from corporations?  I’ve gotten plenty of them.  $500 that magically appeared in my savings account?  Mine.  Twice returned check for loan initiation on a loan that I decided not to get?  Voila!  New lawn mower.  Free natural gas for the two coldest months of the year when my meter stopped working?  Yeah, that was nice.

It’s just that people will complain about being ripped off more than they’ll brag about getting something for nothing.

Comment #47: Jake Squid  on  03/30  at  11:46 PM

...express “empathy” (but not real empathy, cheap fake empathy) and start at least one conversation about something personal and…

I think I got this treatment when I had to call my bank about currency exchanges.  Then she put me through the “do you want to take on debt so we can make money” sales pitches.  I was tempted to ask if it was better for her if I listened and said no or if I should just hang up.

Comment #48: Tree  on  03/30  at  11:56 PM

Do you want to know who never gives up?  Alumni associations.  My law school’s has been calling me for years even though have told them a million times I wouldn’t give them a fracking dime.  (Would you?  They took the money and the plan for our grad, arbitrarily reassigned it to the following year and then graduated us under a rented circus tent in a parking lot.)  The devil will suck ice cold dick before I give them even so much as a penny.  And, every few years, regular as clockwork they change solicitation companies and I get the call each time and I have to explain it to a new company to take me off the list Or Goddamned Else.

Comment #49: seeker6079  on  03/31  at  12:10 AM

I have TMobile and it drives me crazy that I’m stuck in a bloody contract until September and have no service anywhere near my office.  My boss is ready to kill me that I can’t answer my phone during the day but what the hell can I do?  Stoopid TMobile.  I want an iPhone but I’d rather go back to Verizon because they have service everywhere.
Thanks for the warning about canceling our contract I seriously hate making angry phone calls to fix problems that shouldn’t happen in the first place and my SO (who is fantastic at such things) won’t take responsibility for any household matters.

Oh but I was going to relate the latest news with Seattle PUD in this vein of being ripped off.  This is a little more disgusting because it’s the city of Seattle and they really should know better - or maybe they hoped people wouldn’t read the fine print of their bills.  Turns out they had been overcharging us for a little while and needed to refund a bunch of money to the folks that paid too much.  So what do they do to pay us back?  Institute a new fee in order to get the money to pay back the money they owe the rate-payers.  What pips.

Comment #50: Amalink  on  03/31  at  12:17 AM

“Nothing would make me happier than a few malefactors of great wealth swinging from lampposts…and I’m only half-joking.”

Well, since I’m a nice leftist I’ll stipulate that they don’t have to be hung by their necks. It can be like the stocks in olden times.

Ah, seeker, solicitation fun. I enjory telling the policeman’s benevolent association (or whoever that is, scamming seems highly likely) that I don’t especially care about keeping kids off of drugs and that I did drugs when I was a kid and I think I’ve turned out tolerably well.

Comment #51: witless chum  on  03/31  at  12:25 AM

I had something like this happen to me when I tried to cancel my 24 Hour Fitness membership.

I once thought about joining up.  I had a coupon for two free weeks.  The salespeople did everything they could* to sign me up without letting me try out the gym first; I wonder why.

*Everything other than give me an actual decent deal.  With all their assorted fees, the membership would have cost 50 percent more than at my previous, far superior gym.

Comment #52: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  12:44 AM

Karmakin, firing or refusing to pay people who don’t retain customers—-and then looking away if they cheat—-is absolutely a conspiracy.  But I don’t recall saying it’s a “conspiracy”.  I’m just saying that there are ample rewards for people who find ways to make sure that the system discourages cancellations, even by cheating.

It’s comical to assume that, at the top, it isn’t explicit.  You did notice that our banking industry collapsed due to hucksters and thieves who were pretty explicit about their methods and motivations to themselves and their colleagues, right?  I don’t trust them for a millisecond to have stumbled into an “accident” that happens over and over, no matter what the actual functional way it works on the ground is.  It probably is a combination of threats, rewards, and software that makes it hard to do a good job of canceling accounts.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/31  at  12:52 AM

I’ll add that the knee-jerk “it just CAN’T be intentional” response is why we’ll never, ever stop forking over money to bad banks, no matter what they do with it, I guess.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/31  at  12:53 AM

wed, making the job so impossible and stressful that it’s impossible for reps not to forget to cancel accounts—-especially if there’s a bunch of unnecessary steps to cancel one (and I’ll bet there is, having done my time in customer service)—-is a way to conspire against customers.  Believe me—-I’ve worked in financial service in the private and public sector, and guess where it’s actually incredibly easy to shut something down for someone who doesn’t want it?  In the public.  They don’t have to make people’s jobs hard for them.  They do fine making the software easy and the steps short to bill someone for something.  That’s not an accident.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/31  at  12:59 AM

Has anyone ever heard of a corporation- phone company, cable company, ISP, insurance company, whatever- forgetting to send you a bill?  Ever heard of one accidentally giving you a month of free service and not charging for it?

My house got free HBO for many years because the cable company’s filter wasn’t working right (or so we assume).

I often order a “medium orange juice” at McDonalds, and the clerk gives sometimes gives me a bigger one than I actually paid for, because the medium orange juice is smaller than the medium soda and they gave me orange juice in the medium soda cup. (I always mention this to the clerk, but keep the juice anyway.)

Comment #56: Doug S.  on  03/31  at  01:05 AM

<blockquote>About twenty years ago I worked grocery with a guy who had this knocked, at least so far as his employer was concerned.  He was quiet, wouldn’t say boo to a goose, and the bosses loved him, especially the bullies.  They’d scream at him over something or other and he’d look meek and mild.  And then when they were gone he’d say something like, “that was very rude of him, about $300.00 worth of rude”… and he’d deliberately break something.  He’d “accidentally” rip a phone out of the wall by turning the power jack in the wrong direction, “accidentally” smash stock, or whatever.<blockquote>

Most shoplifting and theft is done by employees. Disgruntled employees, mostly. Of course, what corporate America learns from these lessons is to hire more security, put up more cameras, and make sure to better time just how much of your time is spent in bathroom breaks, instead of, say, laying off being jackasses.

Comment #57: BlackBloc  on  03/31  at  01:44 AM

Everything in writing, every time, always.  If it’s in writing, they follow it.  Their lawyers are too smart not to follow that.

So yeah, if you close an account, always always get a piece of paper which says, “This account is closed and no longer exists.”

Comment #58: Punditus Maximus  on  03/31  at  01:46 AM

Amanda;

If your going to do auto-debit, you need to set up dead end accounts, set up free checking accounts that are dedicated to paying certain bills, keep no extra money in the account; and notify the bank that said co. is no longer allowed to withdraw from the account. It’s like canceling a check but shouldn’t cost you. If you get hit with an insufficient funds fee talk to the bank about it, you should get it back. Wachovia is very good about this. I have four different checking accounts to deal with this kind of shit. keep a list of when the bills are suppose to hit the account and for how much. you can always call and say you suspect fraud and want that account frozen, that way the rest of your flow is unimpeded. They’re suppose to protect your money. Make nice with a specific branch, Xmas cookies work well.

Comment #59: The Pale Scot  on  03/31  at  02:18 AM

Speaking as someone who worked customer service, I imagine that the person you talked to actually did cancel your account, but there’s a “customer retention” person whose job it is to reactivate recently canceled accounts.  Or possibly an automatic piece of software. 

I can tell you, I’ve dealt with a lot of angry people who canceled their internet or cable, looked at their file and saw that not only did the CSR before me make a note to cancel, she had dotted every i and crossed every t.  The account should have been turned off, but mysteriously is listed as reactivated.  Sometimes there’s even a work order for sending a truck back out to turn it on, with the attendant $25 fee, but without any record of a CSR having accessed the account to make the changes.

Now, either the computer system is haunted, or there’s someone/thing, who doesn’t leave the same “fingerprints” as the rank and file worker, in the system “retaining” customers.

That cable company went bankrupt, by the way.  Not only were they stealing, they weren’t even good enough at it to come out of the red.

Comment #60: Godless Heathen  on  03/31  at  02:20 AM

What flory at 8:45 said. Also, I’ve beaten parking tickets, traffic tickets, late charges (at Penney’s, whose if-we-don’t-process-your-payment-until-after-the-due-date-it’s-late policy is a bona fide racket), from small change to a $1,000 penalty by refusing to pay and wearing them down, in some cases apologizing, after which they wouldn’t dare to insist I still owe it, thus it never damages my credit. I’ve gone to court, written righteous rant letters, threatened to publicize. As long as I know I’m right - and not simply trying to avoid a legitimate fee - I simply become an impenetrable wall. And you know what, Amanda, it feels so good it’s worth the time and effort.

Comment #61: daphne  on  03/31  at  02:39 AM

First, tmobile sucks so bad it hurts. I switched to Sprint and they suck so bad it hurts. Phone companies suck really really bad.

Second, I work midnights and my work gave me a cell phone that I never use. The only time I get calls is whenever I’m trying to sleep. Credit Companies are always bugging me and Steve’s (that’s who used to have the number) friends are always calling me. Yeah, great fun.  Do I sound like a Steve? Why the fuck would I lie?

I wish when the phone companies made a mistake, I wouldn’t owe shit loads of money.

Comment #62: atalised  on  03/31  at  03:13 AM

Just a technical point - I take it that it is not possible in the US to cancel automatic debits at your end?  In the UK, I can cancel a direct debit (the UK equivalent, I suspect) on the phone to my bank or just online - since I have consented to a company taking money away from my account, I can withdraw that consent at any time.

I mention this not to be smug, but to offer up a solution.

Comment #63: Katherine  on  03/31  at  06:06 AM

Re: debt collectors calling new phone numbers.  I was working at a start-up company and we’d just gotten our office and fax lines installed.  I sat not far from the fax machine and was being driven crazy by the way the fax line kept ringing and ringing but no fax ever came through.  Finally one day I answered the fax phone to see what was going on, and it was a debt collector.  I explained to him that he’d gotten the fax line of a new business, and he immediately started making accusations that I was the girlfriend of the dude who owed the money.  I literally could not believe what I was hearing.  I think I might have convinced him eventually though, because the calls to the fax line petered out over the next month or so.  Still, wtf??  Did the high-pitched computer/fax squeal he must have been getting when he called that line not give him a slightest clue?

Comment #64: Rumblelizard  on  03/31  at  06:13 AM

When our local telco got bought by the Carlyle Group, they contracted out the billing dept. to a third party. Suddenly they started failing to cancel people’s service, overbilling, double billing, billing canceled numbers, billing dead people, etc. for a good solid year.

They didn’t do it accidentally. Like when a phone number gets transferred between providers, there’s a paper trail that happens between the two companies to make that happen. They can’t just forget to remove you from the roster.

Comment #65: banisteriopsis  on  03/31  at  06:37 AM

I don’t understand why you’re so helpless. Is there a “small claims court” type legal mechanism in Texas? Here in the UK you can even lodge through this mechanism online. You can’t be held responsible for opponent’s legal costs either. So claim against tmobile for the $50. when they inevitably fail to respond, money’s (eventually) yours. Plus, if they have their lawyer even look at your piddlin’ claim just cost them $500. Win-win right?

Hundreds of thousands of ppl in the UK have claims just like this in right now to claim back their questionable/illegal bank transaction charges over the last few years at the moment, anything from 50-5000 pounds.

Comment #66: mister_z  on  03/31  at  06:44 AM

RobW: Has anyone ever heard of a corporation- phone company, cable company, ISP, insurance company, whatever- forgetting to send you a bill?

Happens all the time with gas and electricity. Then, after a year, they remember and cut your utilities until you pay what they forgot to bill you for, plus interest, plus 50% in fees.

But other than with ISPs/phone companies, it’s not their business model. It’s just not giving a damn.

Comment #67: inge  on  03/31  at  08:13 AM

Has anyone ever heard of a corporation- phone company, cable company, ISP, insurance company, whatever- forgetting to send you a bill?  Ever heard of one accidentally giving you a month of free service and not charging for it?

This has happened to me many times.  Several times I have opened store credit cards with the intention of using them to get a good credit history which I will need in the future.  All three of them sent out the first bill a month too late.  It’s not enough to affect my credit (it has to be 90 days late for that), but it’s enough to charge me a late fee.  Every time I called customer service and they removed the charge with no trouble, which makes me think they are used to dealing with this deception.  They probably just send out all the bills for new accounts late, realizing that many people won’t bother to challenge the late fee they were tricked in to.  I don’t even bother with store credit cards any more; my main card has better rewards anyway.

As for collections, when I first moved to my apartment, I started getting calls from a restaurant and a clothing store where Elyse Waller worked.  Apparently she stopped bothering to show up to work one day, and probably didn’t bother to pay her phone bill and that’s how I got the number.  A few months later I started getting collection calls.  Each company has removed my number when I asked them to (which they are required to do by law if it’s a wrong number), but then more collection agencies started calling.  I’m not mad at the collection agencies; I’m mad at Elyse Waller for not bothering to pay what she owes.  Maybe she could afford to pay her debts if she didn’t just blow off work.  The only other explanation is that she died suddenly, but in that case, I’m sure someone would have at least told her employers about it and probably her creditors too.  I suspect that she is currently running up new debts with no intention to pay them, and using her old phone number.

Comment #68: bananacat  on  03/31  at  09:15 AM

@Amanda: Nope, the software’s easy (unless they’ve changed it, which is possible). It’s like, a few mouse clicks to cancel an account. Most of the time, everything works like it’s supposed to. You would have spoken to retention, so it’s possible you got a rogue retention rep trying to pad his/or bonus the first time. However, T-Mobile doesn’t base their business model on having service employees purposely rip customers off. They prefer to make money by enticing you into a contract and keeping you on a contract.  You may consider that a rip-off too, and that’s fine.

I’m sure many companies do encourage/tolerate ripping off customers by not completing requests, but speaking from personal experience, T-Mobile is not one of them. If you don’t complete requests, you get 1) chewed out, 2) crappy stats that impact your bonus and 3) fired if you make a habit of it. By policy, they’re pretty good about fixing mistakes, too. It’s just that the pressure cooker “DO MORE FASTER ALL AT ONCE RIGHT NOW” atmosphere makes mistakes more likely than they need to be, IMHO. The only time people generally have problems getting money back is if the request was not completed and there are no notes about the original request. Then, you’re sort of at the mercy of the rep and their supervisor, who has to approve any adjustments. So, sometimes you’ll get it, sometimes you won’t, depending on whether the supervisor is a dick or not.

A couple of tips for anyone who’s still with T-Mobile: Never go to Mobile Solutions (a franchise that deals TMobile). Their entire existence REALLY IS based on ripping customers off! They suck.

If you know you’re over your minutes, call before the end of your bill cycle. T-Mobile will change your plan and backdate it, so you pay for the higher plan and not the extra minutes.

Comment #69: wednesdayaddams  on  03/31  at  09:19 AM

Something similar happened to me—I’d always been happy with T-Mobile’s customer service, but got a bill for $135 after switching (for 1 month plus 1 week; my normal monthly bill was $50 & never went over $70), with only two weeks of the five even listed on the call log.  Took me three months to get a full listing, and as far as I can tell they probably charged me for nights & weekends, but at that point it was already in collections & it was easier to just pay the bastards (slowly, and it went to the company instead of the collectors).  Probably took a twenty-plus point hit on my FICO for that one.

Comment #70: latts  on  03/31  at  10:38 AM

Oh, and then AT&T;somehow managed to not combine my landline & mobile billing as requested, while only sending me the one bill.  I loathe them all.

Comment #71: latts  on  03/31  at  10:39 AM

I’ll second the statement about getting the rep’s name. Once I started doing that (years ago), it has been amazing how often it makes a difference.  And use it in the conversation. Repeatedly.

If you are calling about a complaint, close the call with asking how to spell their name, which reminds them that you do know it.

The other thing I learned a long time ago - by accident, when I was so pissed off I couldn’t see straight - is to tell the person on the other end of the line some variation of “Hi, Tiffany, I hope you can help me. Let me start out by saying that right now I am so mad at your company that I’m shaking, but I know it doesn’t have anything to do with you personally. Let me apologize in advance if I get a little short with you.” Nine times out of ten, they are suddenly on your side, most of them really try to help fix things (or seem to) and if you do get angry, they are able to not take it as personally - they already know what jerks they work for.

Calling back is another useful trick. Calling back with a question - even if it is just to check if the account is closed or the order shows placed with the discount they promised, and being able to say “I called yesterday at 9:15 and talked to Tiffany…..”

Ask for a transaction ID # or a call service log # or other record number from their end, and also ask if you can get a confirmation email. I’ve found that most customer service reps these days can do both of those in a heartbeat, but don’t unless you ask. If they can’t or they waffle, it can be a nice red flag to double check.

Comment #72: Lymis  on  03/31  at  10:53 AM

We’re having that debt collection thing too - we bought a house that was foreclosed (before the recent collapse) and while we get next to nothing from collectors about the previous owner, apparently, he let a series of girlfriends use the address, because we still get calls and letters for several of them.

The one that really ticks me off, though, is that our previous address, we had a couple of identity-related things that kept turning up, none with our name on them, but with our address. When we moved, we put through the change of address and specifically asked that only things with our names be forwarded, but some numbwit at the Post Office sent change of address for everything that wasn’t in the new renter’s name, so instead of being dead, they followed us to our new address. And of course, now that the new address is associated with the old crook’s name, we get to continue to deal with it.

It is, however, a slight bit of fun on the phone, informing the caller that the situation was reported to the FBI (true) and asking for their contact information and reading back the caller ID info to tell them we’ll pass their info onto the FBI (not true) and how do they spell their name, exactly? Funny how often that stops things from recurring.

Comment #73: Lymis  on  03/31  at  11:00 AM

I’m happy for the tips on navigating a system set up to fuck you over.  That’s helpful, but I do think there’s a point where we should start examining what it would take to shift the responsibility from the victims to the perpetrators.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/31  at  11:00 AM

File a complaint with the BBB. It’ll show up semi-publically, though that might not matter if it’s an industry, like cell phone vendors, which consists entirely of scam artists.

My own trial happened last year, when I took out a relatively small student loan to pay for the last bit of grad school. I filled out an application, keeping a printed copy. Though I was eligible for 2.5x, I only actually needed x, and I put that on my application, at the top, in the space provided, in very, very large numbers.

The loan company, of course, mailed 2.5x to my school, which I couldn’t return, since they were kind enough to mail me the leftovers in one ludicrously large check. After I managed to get them to take the money which I never asked for back (the reps I spoke to were very surprised to see the large, friendly numbers on my application), they initially said that I wouldn’t owe interest on it, then that I would, then that I wouldn’t.

I eventually got a letter of pseudo-apology which stated that they wouldn’t charge me for the money I hadn’t asked for, after filing a BBB complaint. The whole mess took several weeks and plenty of snail-mailed letters.

I should add that I was directed to this company—AES/PHEAA—by my school. I complained that they were feeding suckers to a racket, and wondered if someone was getting kickbacks, but all I got back were form letters, and eventually I was simply ignored. The whole mess left a bad taste in my mouth. Perhaps I’ll re-send the last email and demand that they admit to either negligence or malice. It’s been roughly a year, and I’m still pissed off about it.

Comment #75: grendelkhan  on  03/31  at  11:08 AM

It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a circus of incompetence.  Every single credit card company, telephone service provider, health care organization, Federal or State government office, all of them, really, have databases built on 1960s and 1970s technology.

What does this mean?  It means that in any given organization you have from two to eight different databases written in ancient coding languages modified literally thousands of times by hundreds of different programmers.  The systems talk to each other badly, if at all. 

So, for instance, you call to cancel a service.  The request is logged into database (A) which handles subscriber information.  At midnight the automated system is supposed to port that data to the billing database (B) but since the system was cobbled together by a programmer who was overworked under a deadline and therefore kludged an app on the fly - and didn’t document his changes - the port “blips” and isn’t saved.  No system crashes are recorded.  You receive your bill because system (B) never was notified that your subscription was canceled.  You call up, pissed as hell, and customer service person (C) looks at your file and tells you that you did indeed cancel and forwards your request to Technical Services for a double-check.  TechServ is overwhelmed by a bug which crept into release 3.4 of the AR system and shelves the request with the sixty million other “minor” app patches it has to tackle.

You get your next bill.  At this point the port from (A) to (B) has caught up and you’re correctly listed in both databases as canceled, but system (B) lists your date of cancelation as two months late and keeps sending bills.  Since your records are now archived off system (A) all that the company has is your word that you canceled on date (1) versus date (2).

You have high blood pressure by now and finally get a supervisor.  The supervisor read the memo from TechServ telling them that the port from (A) to (B) was buggy and that customer records might not be in sync.  The supervisor refunds the overage and yells at their subordinates for about fifteen minutes.

The company announces a planned software upgrade to a new system which will “fix” all of these issues and the programmers and TechServ personnel seriously consider alcoholism as a lifestyle choice.

We see the syndrome dramatized above over and over.  The no-fly list?  Systems which can’t talk to each other cramming data back and forth.  Bank charges?  Systems programmed in COBOL in 1965 hooked up to the Web.  Everyone in the system is underpaid and overworked and led by managers whose first instinct is to blame their subordinates and the second is to blame the computer systems that they are too cheap to upgrade.

Y2K would have been a relief.

Comment #76: tannenburg  on  03/31  at  11:11 AM

This post, by the way, reminds me strongly of Fred Clark’s writing on a similar issue. In some ways, regulated monopolies were actually better than the scammers we all deal with now.

Also, I’ve decided to continue haranguing the financial aid office at my old school. I’ve forwarded my last, unanswered, email, requesting that a few simple bullet-point questions be answered. Damn the man!

BlackBloc: Most shoplifting and theft is done by employees. Disgruntled employees, mostly. Of course, what corporate America learns from these lessons is to hire more security, put up more cameras, and make sure to better time just how much of your time is spent in bathroom breaks, instead of, say, laying off being jackasses.

Ha! If only. They’d have to rethink the basic idea of treating employees like annoying machinery that requires constant intimidation. A mutually-respectful relationship between management and labor is unthinkable in cheap-labor jobs like the one you describe. I suppose it’s why management there hates unions so much.

Comment #78: grendelkhan  on  03/31  at  11:41 AM

They claim that the seven-year statutory limit applies from when they buy the debt from the previous party, not from when I canceled the card.

There’s a very obscure and arcane term for this. It’s what is known as a “goddamned lie”. Sue the fuck out of them. Should be able to get $2000 and court costs, especially since they very likely won’t show up.

I did the same with Chase Manhattan after they didn’t bother releasing a car title for about a year after a Chapter 13 was paid off. They didn’t show up in court, either.

Comment #79: Dr. Squid  on  03/31  at  11:59 AM

It’s about them, like everybody else in our bloody society being a fucking slave to the upper middle and lower upper class. Do you know WHY Obama is going the route he’s going? To protect the fucking 401ks.

I didn’t realize that making $18 an hour means I’m upper middle class/lower upper class since I also have a 401(k) through my company.

Out of curiosity, what’s your definition of “upper class”?  Someone who makes more than the individual median income, which for women is around $26,000?  My husband and I each make just under $40,000, so I guess we’re upper class since our household income is close to $80,000 and we each have a 401(k).

Comment #80: Mnemosyne  on  03/31  at  12:04 PM

I can tell you, I’ve dealt with a lot of angry people who canceled their internet or cable, looked at their file and saw that not only did the CSR before me make a note to cancel, she had dotted every i and crossed every t.  The account should have been turned off, but mysteriously is listed as reactivated.

I wonder how many steps it took to cancel it and how many it took to turn it back on.  I’m guessing 12-15 in the former, 1 in the latter.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/31  at  12:15 PM

grendelkhan, Union shop or no, it happens.  I worked grocery fairly recently as a survival job.  Officious little pricks from head office put up small posters everywhere forbidding staff from “grazing”, which is the lovely name they give to staff eating from open packages, grabbing a pear, that sort of small beer.  I’m pleased to report that the posters disappeared when I wrote on a fair number of them

if you don’t treat people like cattle then you don’t have to worry about grazing!

Comment #82: seeker6079  on  03/31  at  12:17 PM

Mnemosyne at 11:04 am asks about class definitions.  The best one I ever saw was from commenter “Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread” on this very blog :

  The difference (IMO) between working-class and middle-class is not just about income but about security.

  I figure it this way:

  the genuinely poor are those who struggle to get by on a day to day, week to week basis. The keyword here is Survival.

  the working class (where I see myself) are those who get by but can’t really get ahead - able to pay the rent but not save up enough for a down payment, perhaps, or employed but uninsured, for instance. The keyword here is Security.

  Real middle-class status, to me, implies a certain basic level of security: you know you’ve got enough to take a hit and keep rolling in a “One down three engines good” sort of way. You own your home (or have a mortgage that you can easily keep up with); you have health insurance and savings and a 401K or a government pension and you can reasonably expect that things are going to be Okay - maybe not fabulous, maybe you won’t make that trip to DisneyVille this summer, but you’ll eat regularly and go straight to the ER when you injure yourself instead of waiting a few days to see if it gets better on its own. The keyword here is Stability.

  (In this paradigm I’d use “Savings” as the keyword for the upper class - being those who have money left over to save or invest after their material needs and comforts are assured for the foreseeable future - and “Surfeit” as the keyword for the genuinely wealthy, the people who have more money than I can figure out what to do with. And I am capable of finding good homes for absurdly large dollar figures, I work in a state government accounting office. At the moment.)

  By this measure I believe there are a whole lot of people in this country who are not middle class but call themselves by that name because they don’t want to admit the economy’s broken.

Comment #83: seeker6079  on  03/31  at  12:22 PM

Wednesdayaddams, my dealings with T-Mobile have been so awful and so shady that I really find it impossible to believe that it’s not intentional.

I got hit by a pretty similar issue to the one Volokh talks about in the link upthread - I was signed up for EasyPay, upgraded my contract to include more minutes (and agreed to ‘reset’ my obligation for another year for the privilege, even though I was offering them more money than I’d already been paying). The next month, they take $600 out of my checking account, because my upgraded minutes have mysteriously not gone through and I was way over the limit on my old contract.

So I call and complain, and the rep that I talk to insists that there’s no record of me upping my minutes, and nothing at all he can do about it. I ask for a manager, same thing, although she’s willing to give me a one-month credit (hooray, she says sourly, a $40 credit for a $600 mistake). I was young and unsure of myself back then, so I agreed to the deal - just please, I begged, please upgrade my contract to the minutes I was asking for. They swear up and down that it’s done, I get names, a confirmation code, etc.

The next month they charge me $900. And there’s no sign of my measly $40 credit. And once again, everyone I talk to swears up and down that there’s no record in my account that I ever called to upgrade, or that I upgraded when I called the second time, to complain about that first charge (because, I guess, it would make perfect sense for me to call and complain that they didn’t upgrade my account, and then not upgrade my account). Nobody can do anything, very sorry, but the confirmation code brings up nothing, sucks to be me but there’s nothing they can do.

Fine. At this point $200 to get out of my contract seems like small change, so I ask them to cancel my account. And I get transferred to their ‘customer retention’ specialist. And suddenly, magically, the notes appear back on my account, and he can see that I tried to upgrade my account two months ago, and again last month. And suddenly everything is sunshine and roses and just as long as I don’t cancel they will credit me back the money they shouldn’t have charged me in the first place.

Now, I see basically two options here: 1) Every rep I spoke to before I threatened to cancel was lying. Since I spoke to several (especially once you include all the oops-we-got-disconnected shit that only seems to happen when I am calling a company to complain), that seems pretty unlikely barring a company policy, official or unofficial, mandating that the customer service reps lie to customers about what their account records say. Or 2) The customer service reps are prevented from seeing certain notes in a customer’s record in just such a way that it prevents them from being able to fix (or even see) problems of this sort. The second option seems a lot less likely to me, because it would interfere with their ability to do their jobs in all sorts of ways, but it would point to the same insidious policy as in (1). What I don’t see is any way for this to have been a totally honest mistake on the part of T-Mobile.

Comment #84: magistera  on  03/31  at  12:44 PM

There are days I just get down on my knees and thank the FSM for the internet. Every tip someone posts helps someone else, and that’s the kind of socialist republic I want to live in!

Anyway, Amanda, I suggest you, and anyone else who has had a tiff with T-Mobile, send a “strongly-worded” letter, perhaps on bright red paper that smells like fire and brimstone, to

ROBERT DOTSON
12920 SE 38th Street.
Bellevue, WA 98006

He is the current CEO of T-Mobile. Likely your letter will just be thrown away or at best, responded to with a form letter, but the idealist in me hopes that enough aggravation for Mr. Dotson (or his secretary) will change SOMEthing. And I bet he’s got the only Porsche in the company lot.

Comment #85: unrelatedwaffle  on  03/31  at  01:09 PM

P.S. Here’s what he looks like:

http://bschool.washington.edu/corp/breakfast_series/dotson.shtml

Comment #86: unrelatedwaffle  on  03/31  at  01:12 PM

I never *ever* do automatic debiting. Why would I surrender control of my cashflow to a creditor? Stories like Amanda’s convince me of the wisdom of this. Trust no one but you alone to make your payments.

I was the last person at my current job to take a paper check instead of direct deposit. Again, I want as much control over my money as possible. I don’t care if it involves a physical journal to a bank or ATM.

Now, alas, a paper check is not an option anymore.

Comment #87: wapsie  on  03/31  at  01:46 PM

You shouldn’t hit up the executives until you’ve banged your head against Cust Serv another time, I think, and gone through a few other channels. That said, I googled ‘eecb [executive email carpetbomb] tmobile” and came up with this:

http://consumerist.com/5099169/eecb—bbb-complaint-solves-500-dispute-with-tmobile

Sorry about linking to consumerist twice in one comments thread.

Comment #88: Colin  on  03/31  at  01:56 PM

Rather than yelling at peons, don’t be afraid to keep them tied up, and demand proof that it’s been done this time. Firm, unfailingly polite (in the sense of not saying “damn it!” and other such horrible expletives), and unwilling to back down.

“I’m afraid I need more than just your verbal assurance. Could I speak to your manager perhaps?”

Also: do not be afraid to go to the state AG about this. The state needs to hear complaints so they can decide if this is criminal behavior.

Comment #89: LongHairedWeirdo  on  03/31  at  01:59 PM

My husband* and I have both, separately, experienced the non-cancelled contract scenario—Bell twice, and once with Primus.  We actually, every time, got our credits back because we had documentation (cancellation dates, confirmation numbers, rep’s name, etc).  We’ve also enjoyed the joy of being given a not-so-fresh phone number once attached to a debtor, and couldn’t believe the harrassment we faced on “Ann”‘s account.  My blood started boiling reading Amanda’s post…it’s too damned real.

*In one instance my husband recently realized that Bell had been debiting him $15 per month for well over two years, for a number we cancelled and that technically shouldn’t even exist.  But he realizes his own lack of vigilance made him a patsy, and a lesson was learned.  Check yer statements.

Comment #90: Ranylt  on  03/31  at  02:01 PM

@ magistera. I’m not saying T-Mobile customer service is perfect, by any means. When I worked there, I spent enough time cleaning up other reps mistakes to know that. Usually, when I had to deal with people that had requested changes that weren’t made, if they had spoken to another rep before me and been told “it’s not in the notes” it was because the prior rep hadn’t scrolled down far enough, or something equally stupid.

Although, unless you called in about other issues those same months, there shouldn’t have been enough notes there to cause that particular issue… It sounds like the first rep probably just made a mistake or was in a hurry (if you forget to save the rate plan change, you’ll see the new rate plan on the screen when you close out of the account, but the change won’t go through) and the second rep was incompetent and didn’t see the notes and had a supervisor that was more concerned with her team’s adjustment stats than actually doing her job right. Retention reps are more experienced, and willing to look over all the notes in detail, not just the last few. 

That’s the only thing I can think of…again, T-Mobile customer service is not perfect. There are a lot of reps and managers that care about their statistics more than they do about helping the people they are talking to. All I’m saying is that it’s not company policy to lie to or steal from customers, and those types of employees (and managers) do get weeded out when they’re caught.

Like I said earlier, it’s mainly just that even though T-Mobile stresses what they call One-Call Resolution, they also expect employees to maintain a certain average call-handling time…the lower the better. When you’re in a hurry all the time, mistakes happen. Then when you call in about the mistake, the next rep is in a hurry and doesn’t research the issue properly, and you end up having to call in repeatedly until you get someone who is willing to invest the time to fix the issue.

Comment #91: wednesdayaddams  on  03/31  at  02:04 PM

@Longhairedweirdo…at T-Mobile, reps are supposed to attempt to de-escalate (I think…they actually switched back and forth on that a couple of times while I was there). Regardless, many supervisors will only do call-backs, even if they aren’t busy. However, they are always glad to take kudos calls. So, I’d recommend saying something like “thank you so much for fixing that for me. Can I speak to your manager to tell him/her what a good job you did?” Then, when you get the manager on the phone, have them confirm that the change is completed.

Comment #92: wednesdayaddams  on  03/31  at  02:08 PM

Raylt:
Sprint did the same thing to my (then) wife.  She called a friend in Australia, finished the call about half an hour later then hung up.  (Trust me, I watched the whole thing with irritated interest because of the poor timing of the call.) 

We get a bill from Sprint, who alleged that she stayed on the phone all night: about $350 in the mid-1990s.  We challenged that, and they simply refused to correct the mistake, and reported us to a credit agency when we refused to pay.  We had to keep taking it off the records because it was disputed.  We also told Sprint, verbally and in writing, that if they were so sure that we were wrong they could sue us in Small Claims.  Hell, we demanded to be sued.  They wouldn’t do that, either, and kept sending the account to different collection agencies.  Oddly enough, the collections agents were far more reasonable than Sprint (!), and generally stopped calling after one time when we explained the situation ... and the noting of the fact that I was a lawyer and just one more call would result in a governmental complaint and possibly a civil action for harassment, “just for fun”.  The agencies wouldn’t call again, Sprint would move it on to the next collection company ...  lather, rinse, repeat.

Part of the problem here in Ontario was that—then as now—“declaratory judgments” were reserved to the province’s superior courts.  You couldn’t go to Small Claims and have a judge say “you don’t owe the cash”.  We were prepared to go to superior court if that was necessary to clear our record to buy a house but, as it happens, we moved and divorced before it became an issue.

I strongly, strongly believe that small claims courts should be able to issue such judgments.  The fact that the only accessible court for ordinary people usually can’t do so is one of the reasons these situations flourish.  The creditors-who-aren’t-actually-owed-money just keep pushing knowing that there is nobody who can make them stop, knowing that a certain percentage of people will say to hell with it and pay.

Comment #93: seeker6079  on  03/31  at  03:03 PM

Finally one day I answered the fax phone to see what was going on, and it was a debt collector.  I explained to him that he’d gotten the fax line of a new business, and he immediately started making accusations that I was the girlfriend of the dude who owed the money.  I literally could not believe what I was hearing.  I think I might have convinced him eventually though, because the calls to the fax line petered out over the next month or so.

Collections agents are the scum of the earth as far as I’m concerned.  My mother was ill for a long time and couldn’t work, so of course the collections agencies started calling.  They were unbelievably abusive pieces of shit.  They would chew me out; I was a child at the time, by the way.  I’m capable of feeling sympathy for customer service reps (even those working for evil corporations) and telemarketers (even though they annoy the shit out of me), but collections agents can eat shit and die.  I’m convinced that any halfway decent person would not even last a day at that job.  Those companies must be hiring bonafide sociopaths.

Comment #94: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  03:27 PM

I’ve had not one but two run-ins with collection agents, not as a debtor but as someone with (1) a debtor’s old telephone number, or (2) the debtor’s same last name. These guys actually go through the phone book and call everyone with the same last name, hoping to land on a relative.  The agent pestered me for weeks, convinced I was related to, and abetting, his prey (I had never heard of the guy).  I eventually got Bell Canada on his case, since (at the time, at least) there was a clause at the front of the white pages about abuse/harassment.

Re. the phone number I was given that once belonged to a debtor, I eventually had to get the CRTC (Canada’s federal communications regulator) on this agency’s case (it worked).  They called us twice a day, every day, from 7am (including weekends) to 10 at night.  It went on for months.  I assume they thought I was lying when I said I wasn’t so-and-so, and that I’d eventually be driven nuts enough to fess up.  (PS I wasn’t willing to simply get a new free phone number, which Bell initially offered me, because I’d just spent big $$$$ on a thousand shiny new freelancing business cards with the annoying phone number…thanks, Ma Bell).

These experiences have taught me never to go into debt.  And that I’m in whole-hearted agreement with keshmeshi.

Comment #95: Ranylt  on  03/31  at  05:21 PM

Everyone needs to read Bob Sullivan’s “Gotcha Capitalism” right now. The subtitle of the book is “How hidden fees rip you off everyday—and what you can do about it.” I found it a hard read, simply because it was so enraging, but it’s an absolutely necessary one.

Comment #96: Calliope  on  03/31  at  05:40 PM

I used to work for a collection agency, and I know there are a lot of laws regulating their behavior.  From what I’ve read, it sounds like a lot of them are ignoring the laws.  The one I worked for didn’t.  They are not allowed to call outside of specific times (I think 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.), and if you tell them it’s a wrong number, they are required by law to stop calling you.  I’m pretty sure there are also limits to how often they can call.  I know how much people tend to hate collection agencies, but some of them aren’t that bad.  It’s a good idea to be familiar with the laws and report any that don’t obey them.

Comment #97: bananacat  on  03/31  at  05:58 PM

“Nothing would make me happier than a few malefactors of great wealth swinging from lampposts…and I’m only half-joking”

Same here, but im not joking at all

“pour encourager les autres”

until we make some examples of these bastards, things will never change

Comment #98: jefft452  on  03/31  at  08:04 PM
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