In Daniel Gilbert’s 2006 book “Stumbling on Happiness,” the Harvard professor of psychology looks at several studies and concludes that marital satisfaction decreases dramatically after the birth of the first child—and increases only when the last child has left home. He also ascertains that parents are happier grocery shopping and even sleeping than spending time with their kids. Other data cited by 2008’s “Gross National Happiness” author, Arthur C. Brooks, finds that parents are about 7 percentage points less likely to report being happy than the childless.
The most recent comprehensive study on the emotional state of those with kids shows us that the term “bundle of joy” may not be the most accurate way to describe our offspring. “Parents experience lower levels of emotional well-being, less frequent positive emotions and more frequent negative emotions than their childless peers,” says Florida State University’s Robin Simon, a sociology professor who’s conducted several recent parenting studies, the most thorough of which came out in 2005 and looked at data gathered from 13,000 Americans by the National Survey of Families and Households. “In fact, no group of parents—married, single, step or even empty nest—reported significantly greater emotional well-being than people who never had children. It’s such a counterintuitive finding because we have these cultural beliefs that children are the key to happiness and a healthy life, and they’re not.”
What’s interesting is that later in the article, she explains that as children became more of a lifestyle choice, the amount of effort and expense to have them went up and added even more stress to people’s lives. There’s a number of reasons for this, including expanding hours at work, the increased cost of childcare, increasing health care costs, and probably the increasing necessity to pay for higher education. But I also have to wonder if the fact that children are more a choice than just a fact of life feeds into it. When you actively choose something and/or take ownership over that choice, you put more of yourself into it. Like the difference between renting a place and buying it. Knowing that you didn’t have to have children just amps up your responsibilities to the children you chose to bring into this world.
On the whole, if my guess is right, then I think it’s a good thing. Parenting is a big responsibility, and people who choose it are obligated, in my opinion, to put their all into it. Your kids didn’t ask for this life, so the least you owe them for bringing into this vale of tears is to give them every advantage you can. I think that the sea change from children being a fact of life to children being a choice has, for this reason, been a huge factor in why child abuse has become a major issue and society is a lot less tolerant of things like beating a child with a switch to discipline them. The downside that’s much lamented in school administrations everywhere is that all this also contributes to spoiling and entitlement. Striking a balance is yet another stress that no doubt factors into why the be-childed are unhappier on average than the childless.
What I also found interesting in the article is that the author, Lorraine Ali, completely skips over something that Gilbert mentioned in Stumbling: the unhappiness factor in having children is far stronger for women than men. Which is to say that the levels of happiness with the marriage plummet more for women than men after the first baby is born. There’s no doubt as to why this is, which is that the combination of having to do more shit work and resenting your husband because he has to do less shit work (with babies, all too often literal shit work) is bound to stress anyone out. Unfortunately, feminism hasn’t made much of a dent in this area. Even as men have been picking up the broom more often, they haven’t actually been picking up the baby wipes more often. No wonder anti-choicers believe that women won’t have children unless forced to by law.
Of course, first comment out is by a grumpy conservative who thinks all this Declaration of Independence-inspired blooey about happiness is just more liberal decadence.
This article reeks of liberal self-centeredness. All right, go ask childless barren couples why they’re so sad. Why have all these orphans from Korea, China, and impoverished eastern european countries been snapped up? And what fool ever said parenting was easy? Nothing in life worth having is ever easy, including successfully rearing and launching children into the world. This article is just plain idiotic, that’s what it is.
No doubt his concern for the individual’s duty to society as a whole dries up when he’s asked to pay his taxes, what with those also being a liberal plot and all. I guess women’s duties to society are a little easier to compel without moral qualms. The irony in that is that with environmental disaster on the horizon, right now the greater duty on people is convincing them to deprive themselves of heirs in order to reduce the stress on the planet from so many Americans with our American lifestyles. There’s a number of comments in there that are flailing like this, because there’s nothing worse for people than when cold, hard facts butt heads with cherished illusions. In fact, this comes up in the article itself.
Simon received plenty of hate mail in response to her research ("Obviously Professor Simon hates her kids,” read one), which isn’t surprising. Her findings shake the very foundation of what we’ve been raised to believe is true.
Oh, I don’t know. The part of me that’s eternally optimistic about human nature was surprised. I keep stupidly thinking that people, when confronted with boring old evidence that really shouldn’t rile them up if they gave a moment to sober, rational thought, will be sitting down to write letters like, “Dear Dr. Simon: I was surprised to read that having children is statistically linked with higher levels of unhappiness than not having children. While I certainly squirmed to realize that my choice to have children was made under false beliefs, I came to realize that I can’t actually regret my children because I love them so much. I’m grateful to you for them, though, because the more research done into these things, the more my own children can make life choices with full information, even if this includes deciding against having children themselves. I only want them to be happy, after all.”
And who knows? Maybe there are a lot of people like that, probably the ones who were on the right end of the bell curve and who had the smallest dip in happiness levels when they had children and thus aren’t so defensive. I can’t help but think the people who lash out the hardest are the ones who are angriest with themselves for those moments of darkness that flit through the minds, the unbidden “What ifs?” that studies like this bring to the surface. Happier parents don’t see themselves reflected in these stats, and probably just can’t summon the energy to be angry.
It’ll be interesting to see how the popularization of this research plays out. I’m always fascinated by the gaps between beliefs and reality, and the struggles that people go through reconciling them when they are at odds. The belief that children are a mandatory part of happiness won’t die easily, I suspect.
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I think you’re spot on with the “lifestyle choice” argument. I do research on marriage and have found the same thing with regard to “wedded bliss.” As marriage has become more of a lifestyle choice than an economic necessity there is actually much more pressure placed on couples to make marriage/family the primary source of happiness and they find themselves anxious and stressed out when it fails to be perfect. And I think with parenting--as the comments suggest--the stakes are raised because complaining or raising doubts about the joy of parenthood brings a lot of social opprobrium.
The way I figure it, there are problem some (but not all, or even most) who become happier as a parent. Much like any other job, some people do enjoy different things. But just like I doubt there are too many people who would enjoy being any singular job, no matter what the job is, I don’t think every one would find happiness as a parent.
He also ascertains that parents are happier grocery shopping and even sleeping than spending time with their kids.
Depends on how you qualify “spending time” with the kids. changing their diapers or cleaning up puke? Answering endless repetitive questions? Disciplining them when they are determined to test their limits? Taking them to the ER when they’ve fallen and need stitches or broken an arm?
Cause those times suck. Big time.
But when they make you slow down and really look at the world-->when you see a dandelion as a pretty flower for a bit and not just a weed (if you noticed it at all). When they tell you they love you. When you see them experiencing something for the first time and how they are filled with wonder and excitement instead of ennui?
Those times rock. And they rock enough for me to make up for the times that suck, even if the suckier times are longer overall than the rocking times.
I think it’s a good study, though it doesn’t strike me as as significant as the ones that show single women are happier than marrieds and single men are sadder than married men and married men are happiest of all. An overall look can be extremely helpful.
But it makes me wonder about more specifics. Kids are family. Families are different. Some people hate their families, and when they have kids, they continue the same patterns and create the same resentments. Others are luckier and have loving families and recreate them.
That familial bond is really important when bad things happen--what happens when a child is born handicapped? No one would choose to have a child born handicapped but it happens, and it’s not necessarily a tragedy for all concerned. It takes more work, and more effort and stress and sadness, but, again, the rewards can more than make up for it for some people.
Anecdata-ly, I come from a long line of women who were wonderful moms and loved their kids unconditionally. I adore my kids, but don’t see a conflict with the fact that I have to get away from them sometimes and that sometimes I don’t like them much. They’re people, and even best friends can’t take each other all the time.
I’d like to see what makes certain families happier. Is it having more money and more resources? Is it having only 1 or 2 kids? Is it certain personality types? Parenting types? Or is all just a crap shoot and you need to decide for yourself?
I guess this study just makes me curious for more answers. Because no matter what a study shows, my reality and my anecdotes are valid for me, even if it means I’m an outlier.
Caren, Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 06/30 at 10:50 AM
Amanda, I don’t understand why people give you crap about not wanting kids - I’m GLAD you (or someone like you) doesn’t want kids. Because I’d like to have one or two, and I feel guilty about over-populating the planet. You’re like a carbon credit or a Catholic indulgence or something. We need more chosen childless couples!
As for the rest, I think the writer and the commentators are both sort of right. The writer was, I think, saying that marital happiness decreases - which I can totally see. You and your spouse now have far MORE topics on which to argue and chores which to do, and far LESS free time to focus on each other and the marriage. On the flip side, the commenters are right that children can be a joy and that childless couples who don’t WANT to be childless can be quite sad. I don’t think the writer meant to say that Kids == Hell, but I could see her being misinterpreted that way.
I think the point to take away from this is that if you want kids, just be prepared that the marriage might suffer some strain. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to conceive hoping that the baby will “save” the marriage.
A. Children make for greater unhappiness absolutely
B. Children make for greater unhappiness *in society as presently constituted*.
All the study would seem to show is B.
It’s not a surprise. Our strip-mall world seems geared primarily to please slow-witted teenagers with expendable income. Under capitalism children are an economic liability, whereas in medieval and early modern agrarian societies they were an asset after the age of 6.
I doubt A is even demonstrable. Marcotte seems to wish that A is the case, on account of the bad attitudes of some parents about what their parenthood means. It seems mean-spirited and counter-productive, but it’s been a winning affect for her in this forum.
There is such a thing as perpetuation of the species and of civilization. That doesn’t seem like a mere “lifestyle choice”. We ought to make it easier for those who take on that important work, without harm to those who exercise their personal liberty not to reproduce (a liberty that everyone should have absolutely—for if being childless is really appealing to you past the age of say, 30, than you probably *shouldn’t* have kids).
You’re right, Caren. It would be interesting to break down the various ways to spend time. I suspect playing with kids ranks higher than grocery shopping, which again makes me point to the fact that the shit work of kids tends to fall on female shoulders, while play time falls on male shoulders, which goes back to why women tend to become more unsatisfied over time than men with the nuclear family situation.
I think the fact that people turn to having kids to give their lives meaning is an really interesting aspect of all this. It says to me that society would be a lot better off with diverse paths to finding meaning outside of family life. The more people can find meaning through artistic expression, activism, or other kinds of meaningful work, the less they’ll feel drawn to having kids. Not everyone---lots of artists and scientists have kids, after all. But a percentage of people who find greater meaning in work will avoid having children, which is a big step in the right direction. Perhaps making these opportunities more available is the best thing we can do for the environment.
Wapsie, I don’t wish for anything. I do think that the immense pressure to have children should disappear, and I think that people who want others to validate their choices by having children themselves should lay off. And we’ll find that a lot fewer people will have children than you’d think. And you’ll have to live with that, because other people don’t exist to validate your choices.
As a man with two young kids (3 and 1 yr old), for me being a married male working parent has higher highs and lower lows than being a married male working non-parent. Add to the math that I get about 20% less sleep than I used to and do more housework than I used to, and I’d say my overall happiness is lower. And I agree that getting away from the kids is a treat - sometimes I even like pulling weeds in the garden, if only because it is quiet.
I think my wife has it harder, though. She is a stay-at-home mom for the time being, and I know she misses her career. For her, especially, getting away from her 24 hour a day child-care job is something she really enjoys and any time she can get out of the house without the kids, even if it is just to go to the store or run errands, is a great time.
Faye, there are a number of studies analyzed, some the focus on marital happiness and some on overall happiness. Both decrease after children are born. The satisfaction with the marriage one is limited, of course, to married couples, but what’s interesting is while both men and women lose joy in marriage after children are born, women get hit worse.
Now, of course, not everyone. Nothing is absolute. Some people are born to love being around children, and thus will be statistical outliers. But on the average, children decrease happiness.
Instead of lashing out at the messengers, I wish people took this research to heart and really strongly considered whether or not they want kids before they have them. As it stands, the illusion that children increase happiness for the average person creates a vicious cycle in many households: People have children, their lives get worse, they resent the children, they lash out at the children, and they pressure other people to have children who will have the same cycle because they need validation. You know who really gets screwed in that cycle? Children.
I love how all the trolls address Amanda Marcotte as “Marcotte.” No honorific, no first name, no initial, nothing.
Anywho, I’m also going to chime in as one of the happy parents. Not because I think that invalidates the study in any way, but because I totally see where it is right. A lot of parents really don’t seem happy to be parents. When my wife was pregnant, we noticed all the pregnant people. Now we notice all the people with kids, and yeah. A lot of people clearly don’t enjoy it (there’s this one woman in our apartment complex who has the nastiest tone to her voice and, given all the yelling, does not exactly enjoy herself).
We share childcare duties unevenly, but I don’t get all the fun times playing with our daughter in the park, I change diapers and deal with daughter while she’s tired and cranky and just wants her mother (as she has boobs). I go to school and work, and my wife works evenings. We barely see each other except when it’s time to go to bed. I go off in the morning and she looks after our daughter during the day, and I take over when I get home from work or school, as the case may be and my wife goes out to work. Not the ideal situation, but worth it for us. Our daughter is being raised by us rather than a paid stranger, and I won’t be going to school forever. The good times more than outweigh the bad (and complete lack of anything resembling enough sleep).
Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato on 06/30 at 11:28 AM
I’m totally with Caren as one of the happy parents as well. THere are certainly times that suck, but with me, the times that rock far outweigh them. My husband and I have the house and childcare duties pretty much divided equally and maybe that is some sort of key.
However, I do know that I see A LOT of miserable people with kids out there, and yes, the one that suffers the most is usually the child. I think everyone would be much better off to really consider for quite some time whether they actually want a child or not. I was 34 when I had mine and I think that also helps out with my overall happiness. I’ve spent my life doing things for myself - getting an education, spending time with friends, seeing lots of bands, having a career or two, etc., etc. - and I just don’t miss most of those things (I still work full-time and pretty much don’t want to). Besides, if I want to get out (which I rarely do) I just get a baby sitter or grandparent. By the end of the night, I’m ready to see my little boy again.
I think a great deal of it comes down to expectations--just like those who expect to find fulfilment *only* in a romantic relationship, and believe that romance=constant drama.
I would also expect young couples who automatically start having children early in their relationship would find it a really big drag. It completely changes every facet of your life and ruthlessly limits your options for the next twenty years.
In our case we started very late, having had time to fool around while we were young and energetic and had disposable income. Despite some real trials without extended family around for support, we are having a ball with our little one. But there will be only one! I could never go through all this again.
The longer I parent, the more convinced I am that fewer people should undertake it. It’s definitely the biggest challenge I’ve ever faced. It opens you up to all kinds of emotional and fiscal vulnerabilities, is physically exhausting, and puts real strain on every dimension of your spousal relationship. And from the child’s point of view, it means having to live with and be shaped by someone who is stressed out and tired much of the time.
However, despite the physical, emotional, logistical, and financial challenges, I am completely smitten with our kid and wouldn’t go back for anything. That doesn’t mean that going to the grocery store *alone* wouldn’t be a big thrill. But most of the thrills these days, and they are big ones, are to be found with my kid and not without her.
For awhile I dated a women who had a 12 year-old son she split custody with her ex 50/50 and it was fun when the kid was around, it was pretty cool to always have someone to go snowboarding with or go throw a ball in the park. the fact that he was only around about half the time probably helped a lot plus he was a really nice kid.
After that relationship I dated a women who had two very high maintainence kids and it was pretty misreable, it was almost impossible to go anywhere without the children fighting and complaining( I am pretty sure that my experience with this family inspired me to get a vasectomy) In addition my girlfriend did everything possible to make sure that her ex did not spend time with the kids, which meant they were around 24/7.
It seems like kids can be fun, but it seems like many people turn them into a lot of work
I guess this study just makes me curious for more answers. Because no matter what a study shows, my reality and my anecdotes are valid for me, even if it means I’m an outlier.
Herein lies the rub: Childfree Movement types like to pretend that all parents openly choose children, as they have openly NOT chosen children.
Unfortunately, that often isn’t the case - particularly for women not provided with a lot of other options, or any alternate worldview that NOT having kids is appropriate in any way.
To get an adequate handle on this study, the authors would need to ask some detailed questions about “when did you decide to have kids” or “how did you come to have kids” or “why did you have kids”. Furthermore, a proper survey instrument would not be able to ask these things so directly ... it would have to be built around clusters of questions designed to be categorized into a “marriage= kids” frame or a “knocked up means I got married” frame or a “really wanted kids because I like them” frame. All of those situations exist, yet all of them are lumped into the “parent” category for the present analysis - possibly due to statistical power considerations, possibly due to the base hypothesis that Amanda is advancing by citing the study. If those categories were analyzed separately, I’d wager that the satisfaction and happiness results would likely split according to the degree of foreknowledge and intention.
I think we have to remember that a lot of studies on parents and parenting suffer from the same issues that sociological research of any type sufferers from. Gathering data which reflects the complexity of such situations without over parsing it, and finding statistical methods that can handle that complexity is a very difficult task. I have had to “reeducate” sociology majors moving into public health because they tend to think that fancy statistical massage can make up for inadequate data, and that spewing abstruse statistical concepts makes the former more scientific.
I doubt A is even demonstrable. Marcotte seems to wish that A is the case, on account of the bad attitudes of some parents about what their parenthood means. It seems mean-spirited and counter-productive, but it’s been a winning affect for her in this forum.
I think you mean “effect”.
I’ve never understood why people have such a problem with the fact that Amanda is not running around trying to get knocked up. The best piece of advice about child rearing; if you don’t want them, don’t have them.
To me this study makes absolute sense, of course I’ve never been one to be mystified by the romance of babies. It’s stressful; more work, less sleep, people will be more irritable, even the best marriages (relationships) will suffer somewhat despite the fact that children are also a rewarding experience.
It makes sense to me to say that having children leads to a more stressfull life. Worry, lack of sleep, lack of financial resources will generally weigh heavier of people with children. But overall happiness? A person without children can feel happier being childless, but he/she doesn’t fully know the experience of parents. Maybe the moments of happiness for parents are magnified and even out the moments of stress? IMO, happiness is subjective so how can it be measured.
“In fact, no group of parents—married, single, step or even empty nest—reported significantly greater emotional well-being than people who never had children.
I take it that adoptive and gay parents - people who have to be super intentional about incorporating children into their families - were not included in this analysis?
I think it would strengthen the argument about making choices and evaluating options if we could see what the results are for a stratum with such a high degree of intention.
In case you were thinking that having children is an investment in post-flight happiness, though, levels of happiness with marriage never completely return to pre-children levels. They get closer, but never completely get there.
No less than anti-choice harpy Jill Stanek mentioned that she would “rather party than spend time” with her child, and that he “suffered” as a result. You might note that her shotgun marriage to the father of the child she conceived out-of-wedlock lasted about three years.
Funny how she condemns single mothers, abortion rights, gays, and preaches “traditional family values” when she really sucks at the whole wife/mother role that she forces down everyoe else’s throat.
From her own blog:
You are projecting. I am by no means bitter. My son
suffered due to an immature mother who would sometimes rather party than
spend time with him, back in the day.
I sinned. But God saw an opportunity for the blessing of giving a unique,
special child to the world, despite that.
I met Rich when Michael was 3-1/2. We married when he was 5, and Rich
adopted him, which was another blessing.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 16, 2008 4:51 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jess, I did not. I got pregnant at age 19 and married to my
18-year-old boyfriend (who was still in high school) at 4-1/2 months
along. I had my oldest at age 20. I was divorced and a single mom by age
23.
I cannot regret my lapse because that would mean I regret my wonderful
son, who has now given me 3 beautiful grandsons.
But our life was hard for a time. And he suffered most for it.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 15, 2008 10:34 AM
It’s such a counterintuitive finding because we have these cultural beliefs that children are the key to happiness and a healthy life, and they’re not.
< snort > It’s counterintuitive that something we have strong cultural beliefs supporting is, in fact, unpleasant and difficult? What do folks think cultural beliefs are for? You don’t need a cultural belief in chocolate and ice cream as appetizing treats. You do need a cultural belief that it’s important to eat your veggies before you have dessert.
Ms Kate, I don’t think that means yes or no. But regardless, we can’t say that even if you disclude those groups, you’ve got a bunch of accidental parents. Intentional parenting is still created primarily by judicious use of contraception and abortion.
A. Children make for greater unhappiness absolutely
B. Children make for greater unhappiness *in society as presently constituted*.
All the study would seem to show is B.
...
I doubt A is even demonstrable. Marcotte seems to wish that A is the case, on account of the bad attitudes of some parents about what their parenthood means. It seems mean-spirited and counter-productive, but it’s been a winning affect for her in this forum.
Really? Because in the paragraph that begins “What I also found interesting...”, Amanda quite explicitly points out that how society is presently constituted can have a rather significant effect on how children affect marital happiness, something that the linked article fails to mention.
It’s not a “gotcha” argument if you’re the one who missed the boat.
Unfortunately, that often isn’t the case - particularly for women not provided with a lot of other options, or any alternate worldview that NOT having kids is appropriate in any way.
This seems to be the point Amanda’s trying to make--and, in any case, I agree with it. Reducing the number of situations where people are forced to have children, and maximizing the ability to choose when and how to have kids, seems likely to reduce the burden of “unhappiness” associated with parenting.
To add to the anecdata, my wife and I in our mid-twenties, and are waiting to have kids at least until she finishes med school and residency. My parents have been a constant source of support; they made clear to both of us that while having kids was a rewarding experience for them, they have seen far more parents fail than succeed. My wife’s extended family is on the other end of the debate, forcing us to field weekly questions about when they’ll meet our babies.
I have no doubt that if I came from a more “traditional” background, we’d have given into the pressure by now--and children would have led to making poorer compromises with education, money, and other vital decisions, leading to sharply reduced “happiness” for both of us.
Our daughter is being raised by us rather than a paid stranger
The other consequence of children as a lifestyle choice can be seen in the above quote. Raising children has turned into a sick competition of who can be the best parent. I’m not even a parent, but I still find this sanctimonious bullshit annoying. So you don’t send your kid to daycare. Congratulations, nobody cares.
But the study is excellent and necessary and I’m glad somebody did it.
waspie: Under capitalism children are an economic liability, whereas in medieval and early modern agrarian societies they were an asset after the age of 6.
It’s not capitalism that makes children costly. Children can work in sweatshops and supplement the family income just fine, and might even keep their aged parents out of the poorhouse with some luck. It’s the clash between what capitalists want (profit!) and what people who have to sell their labour want (time with the family, a better future for the kids) that makes things so complicated.
Depending on where you stand, complicated is good.
But regardless, we can’t say that even if you disclude those groups, you’ve got a bunch of accidental parents.
Don’t half of all pregnant women still say they didn’t plan the pregnancy? When a good 50 percent of the people having kids didn’t plan to have kids, it’s hard to argue that they all chose to do it because they were deluded by cultural myths.
it’s hard to argue that they all chose to do it because they were deluded by cultural myths.
Actually, it isn’t hard to argue that sloppy use of birth control, unwillingness to get an abortion, or “oopsing” into parenthood is largely the result of cultural pressure. Having grown up in finer trailer courts, there is most certainly an air of inevitability to pregancy and motherhood as a result of societal expectations and certain women being written off to such a fate.
If you think it is your ultimate fate to be a wife/mother so you don’t watch out for yourself like you might if you were in medical school or had other long-term options, isn’t that culturally injected?
“When a good 50 percent of the people having kids didn’t plan to have kids, it’s hard to argue that they all chose to do it because they were deluded by cultural myths.”
Agreed. I think it’s also hard to argue that there’s not a good chance that they wouldn’t end up unhappy.
I thought Ms. Kate’s point on Gay / Adoptive parents was telling. I wish this study had included them.
Agreed, Mnem, that it would be interesting to divide women who passively had children from those who actively had them. I’m just saying that including or not including gay parents doesn’t change the fact that a huge percentage of straight people do actively choose children. Ideally, we’d get to a world where the number of passive parenting choices is zero. Which isn’t to bash anyone who passively became a parent, but many of them would be the first to say it probably would have been better if they’d been more active in their choices so that they were better prepared.
The only people I hear making those kinds of arguments are people who are extremely depressed at finding out that parenthood isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. A former friend would go on at length about how superior she was because she stayed at home with her kids and didn’t have them raised by a stranger, when “staying at home” meant turning on the TV and just plunking down in front of it all day. But just by virtue of the fact that she was at home with the kids, they were going to be so much better off than those kids in daycare who had organized playtime and art projects and books read to them. But she made sure to tell me that “everyone she knew in highschool who was in daycare was ‘messed up.’” (Gee, thanks).
I tell you what: when I was a kid, I knew when my mom was depressed. And that stressed my shit out. If you’re unhappy staying at home with the kids and making up all sorts of “at least they’re not being raised by a stranger” bullshit rhetoric, you might want to take a step back from your own ego and realize that your kids know you’re not happy, and growing up in a house where one or more parent is depressed is going to be a LOT more traumatic than making friends and playing Red Rover in daycare ever could be.
In fact, one thing we do know is that the assumption forming in this thread---that there was ONE study---is 100% wrong.
There are multiple studies.
Gilbert created his analysis from a statistical analysis of multiple studies, and he’s only one of many researchers mentioned in this article. The article is built on lots of different studies, which means I bet that some of them did take different variables into account that people are demanding. I’ll bet some did have gay parents, some didn’t.
That’s the point. Many researchers, many methods, many different groups analyzed. One constant: Children lower happiness in various groups.
It is good to get this out there to help dispel people’s expectations, which should help them adjust to childrearing if that is what they choose to do.
For me, I consider myself lucky to have the benefit of watching my older sisters raise their kids first. I knew what I was getting into (not really, but close enough). Also, years of depression has given me some help too. I do not expect my kids, spouse or anyone else to bring me happiness. I am very glad to have them in my life.
Little joys are pretty cool. I worked with our three year old on some challenging puzzles this weekend. It was pretty cool at to see him get it (he got up and did a happy dance), but then he had to do it exactly 7 more times and that got a little boring.
I think pregnancy has an air of “inevitability” because,of rmany girls, it IS inevitable. When I was a teen, I had no idea how to get a condom, and my church insisted that they didn’t work anyway. Fortunately, I knew just a little bit about birth control pills, and I managed to get a script without Mom and Dad knowing, but I lived in absolute terror for the first few months of sexual activity - after all, BC pills fail 80% of the time, right???
But I don’t think misinformation from a sex-crazed church source constitues our entire culture. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong about that.
Agreed, Mnem, that it would be interesting to divide women who passively had children from those who actively had them.
Meh, I’ve known people on both sides. It’s just as easy to be miserable when you get knocked up at 18 as it is to be miserable when your bio clock shortcircuits your brain at 34 and you decide that your life needs a baby right now and once you have a baby everything will be sparkles and rainbows and butterflies.
Of my sample pool, the only people who I’ve known who have been happy with kids (who don’t preface everything they say with “I love my kids but...") have been people who wanted and actively tried to have children. But it’s not a guarantee.
The other consequence of children as a lifestyle choice can be seen in the above quote. Raising children has turned into a sick competition of who can be the best parent. I’m not even a parent, but I still find this sanctimonious bullshit annoying. So you don’t send your kid to daycare. Congratulations, nobody cares.
Yeah, you’re right. That was out of line. Certainly the way I phrased it, anyway.
What I meant was that she’s being raised in the way we want her raised, though it requires some sacrifice on our parts. It would be more lucrative for my wife to work full time so we could afford daycare, but it’s not our preference.
Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato on 06/30 at 12:47 PM
Anyone see that movie with Steve Martin about parenting? I think that explains it so well. Raising kids is like a roller coaster, it’s fun sometimes, scary sometimes and sometimes you wish you could get off. But when you do finally come to a stop, you’re ready to get back on the ride. We adopted, and our daughter has added so much to our world even when she’s driving us crazy. We laugh more, we go outside our comfort zone more, and we’ve met more people. Before she came into our lives we were in a rut, and now we’re on the roller coaster and we wouldn’t change a thing. I can understand though why some people don’t want children and I don’t blame them a bit. Why do something that’s not only going to make you miserable, but also make your kids miserable?
It’s great that so many people here get great joy from their children, but when presenting personal “anecdata” we must remember that Pandagon readers are not a cross-section of the population, and are probably outliers in many respects. Some of those respects which probably influence happiness-children connections would be that Pandagonians seem, on the whole, more likely to:
1) have more egalitarian relationships
2) question cultural assumptions
3) resist outside patriarchal pressures
4) wait to have children until they’re a little older
5) actually PLAN when/how to have children
6) have more realistic expectations about motherhood
7) maintain interests and activities outside of wife/mother roles
etc.
These are the kind of things, as several people have mentioned, that could be taken into account in obtaining a more finely-tuned picture of the relationship between children and happiness. All our experiences here show is that there are obviously moderators/mediators of that relationship, and we must always remember that this community is definitely NOT a representative sample of the country at large.
I don’t even like the play time with kids all that much, that much more reason for me not to have children. There are as many different kinds of kids as adults, and, in my experience, most kids are like most adults, really mediocre and mundane. I do love spending time with unusually perceptive and curious children, but they are definitely the exception.
The wife and kid and I recently went on a vacation with my cousin and his wife and kid. During the course, of the trip we determined that in order to maximize our enjoyment of the trip, we really need another adult to help with the kids, making dinner at the house we were staying in, etc. So the ideal adult to kid ratio is 2.5:1.
This, of course, was tongue-in-cheek, but I really think that there is something to it. Those times when our child’s aunt, grandpa, or grandma is around to help out (even in small ways) make things sooooo much easier for my wife and I.
I don’t know for sure obviously, but might parental unhappiness have the same root as a lot of unhappiness, the lack of community brought on by our current way of life?
I’m not sure which I find more irritating - the sanctimonious horseshit spouted by insecure childless folks demanding that their (possibly regrettable) choice be validated or the sanctimonious horseshit spouted by insecure parents who need to have their (possibly regrettable) choice validated.
There’s plenty of horseshit from both extremes to go around, and then there are the rest of us in the middle rolling our eyes because we’re just not possessed of enough give-a-damn. Happiness is a nebulous, relative term, and what makes me happy may not make my neighbor happy. I cannot be bothered to tie my own self-worth up in squawking at people to conform to my idea of “happiness”.
I believe people would generally be happier if they calmly gave the finger to “societal expectations”, made the choices that work for them, and proceeded to not give a damn about what other people thought about their life choices. It seems to have worked out OK for me and mine.
I will not deny that having four kids probably lowers my minute-by-minute happiness because of intense stress and lack of sleep and constant disasters and such (there are plentiful fun times as well, needless to say).
I change almost as many diapers as my wife, because frankly with four kids if I left everything to one person everything would be chaos! I do as much housework as humanly possible, and try to work enough extra hours to afford a babysitter and housecleaner to occasionally come and give me and my wife some time to ourselves.
However, my deep-seated contentment with life is undoubtedly much, much, MUCH higher than when I was an unmarried man. The whole tenor of my life has changed, where I’m not living only for myself, or even just for myself and my wife.
The satisfaction of knowing you are continuing your values and legacy into the next generation of this human adventure can’t be measured. I’d rate myself “happier” drinking a beer on a caribbean island than changing a diaper, but that’s only in the moment itself --- over the long term, a life of nothing but moments of personal pleasure can’t add up (for me, only for me, other people can be different, I am not trying to slight anyone!) to abiding happiness.
I think many boring or stressful tasks ultimately lead to more happiness in the long term. Think about all the tedious practice a martial artist or a musician must put in for years and years, instead of going out partying constantly--- the satisfaction gained in the end will justify the complete tedium.
Viktor the Sleepless, father of four under age 5 on 06/30 at 01:05 PM
I find my anecdata really hard to sum up in this way, though; “happiness” is really too simple a concept for me to fit this particular choice into. Child raising is work, for anyone who tries to do it right, regardless of your circumstances. And yeah, it does tend to bring out the weak points in your relationship in ways nothing else would. But if it’s something you actively chose, and if you continue to not regret your choice (big ifs) then are you happy? Content? Angry at the difficulties/lack of prestige placed on parenting work in our culture but not able to accept childlessness as the only response available?
Having and raising my child is part of the work I set out to do in this world; it is some of the hardest work I will ever do. Sometimes bitterly so. Often I feel inadequate to the task. But none of that has much, in the long run, to do with my *happiness*, strictly speaking, as with my determination to do this task and do it well, because I believe it is important. And since it’s not yet finished, and does not have any promised rewards, then I can’t say whether it has made me “happy”. It has given me joy and terror, thankfully more of joy, but that feeling is not the same as a settled happiness.
Don’t half of all pregnant women still say they didn’t plan the pregnancy? When a good 50 percent of the people having kids didn’t plan to have kids, it’s hard to argue that they all chose to do it because they were deluded by cultural myths.
Hmmmm. I got pregnant on my honeymoon (@32). I thought it would take more time thanks to my “aging eggs” and my general elderliness. We wanted kids, and we intentionally did NOT use BC, but we really didn’t think we’d get pregnant the first time. My OB wondered why I thought that.
#2 was planned and specifically attempted for a girl (got her, too).
#3 was an accident (once again brought around by the cultural myth that 39 y/os have aged eggs and one time sans BC is probably ok).
So was I deluded 2/3 of the time by the cultural myth that old ladies like me can’t get pregnant? How’s a researcher supposed to classify me?
What I do know is that I used BC religiously until I was married and in a position to have kids. And with the “surprise baby” I seriously considered my options about whether or not to have her. I’d have to say marital happiness has gone down since having her, but I’m still glad she’s here and believe I made the right choice.
Maybe that’s a big part of deciding how happy you are with children. Whether or not you wanted them when you got them and how much a choice you had about having them. I didn’t have to have them. I wanted them.
That doesn’t mean I want to be a slave to motherhood 24/7, but it means I did want the little rugrats.
Caren, Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 06/30 at 01:21 PM
It’s not that simple.
What the Freakanomics discussion missed is that lots of people make sacrifices in short-term happiness to achieve long term gains. Freaknomics rightly points out that on a day-to-day, moment-to-moment basis parents are less happy than their childless peers. Parenting is hard work and the study shows it. Young and middle-age adults with no children have more income and more freedom to devote to work that is important to them. They also get to make more voluntary committments of time and money to friends and family.
On the other hand, as a group, older parents have generally better life satisfaction than older childless people (as a group). Parents of adult children have better social networks and more friends. They have more social contacts across age groups. They have better social support as they get very old (and sicker). Plus, if you like kids, grand-children are a huge bonus. (100% of the cute, 10% of the work.)
It’s important to note, though, that parentless older adults have more income, so they have some tools to off-set the smaller social network they have for support.
It’s also important to note that if the older parent-adult child relationship is distant, older parents report lower life satisfaction than older parents who are close to their adult children.
Older parents who outlive their children also report much lower life satisfaction.
A rather primary element in that choice whether or not to have children is that the choice is available at all. This choice is made available because so many poor and South women don’t have choices about whether to have kids or even how many.
The society we have right now is based on a great deal of very cheap labor, which we get from the labor of poor women. One consequence, if such women were allowed to have sexual and family planning education/control of their financial destinies, will be that massive pressure will be put on the women of the Global North to have more children, more than is already put such women now. I think that is the right thing to do, to a worldwide women’s liberation, and also to a more egalitarian approach to who makes the labor that make things go. However, it is absolutely crucial that we know beforehand that our advocacy will boomerang on us, and force us to lose our privileges. Losing privileges hurts us individually, and damages the coalitions we build to expand rights. We should be prepared for that.
If your marriage is crappy, children will make it harder and you will be more unhappy. If your marriage is happy, children will make it harder and you may be a little less happy.
I was happier divorced with children than I was married without children, married with children, or single without children. Now that the kids have gone out on their own, I’m a little less happy than when they lived with me. Not so much empty nest as that feeling of having moved into a different time of life.
Studies have also found that the religious are happier than the non-religious, but I don’t see this particular website trumpeting those.
I certainly think there’s something to this, but I also think that most of the childfree have suffered from incredible social pressure from family to have kids, and thus making a big deal out of stories like this smacks a bit of a desperate need to prove something. “See? See? I *did* make the right choice! I’m right to be childfree! You’re all deluded and I’m validated!” There’s no need for that. If you’re childfree because you want to be, you don’t need a study proving that people without kids are happier; *you’re* happier this way. That’s all that should matter.
The truth is, if you’re an atheist or agnostic, you can’t suddenly choose to become religious because that might make you happier, and having religion forced on you would certainly not make you happier, but maybe the fact that you’re smarter than the average religious person and the fact that you can’t put on blinders and turn to an all-loving omnipotent parent figure for help with your problems—the fact that you *know* there’s no one there but you-- probably does make you unhappy at times. If you could delude yourself maybe you’d be happier, but you can’t.
If you want kids, truly want kids, if you can’t imagine a life without kids, I very much doubt you would be happier if you hadn’t had them, even though they increase the stress in your life tremendously. I suspect most people who have kids had them just because that’s what’s done, but I know for a fact that there are some people who feel as if their lives would be empty if they didn’t have kids, because I am one. I wasn’t socially pressured into wanting children—in all other areas of social pressure I said “fuck that noise” and did what I wanted, like not wearing makeup or dressing girly or getting married in a frou-frou expensive wedding or changing my name or being religious or dating men older than me or drinking alcohol. The need I felt since I was a young woman to have children was real. Other people may well not have it. There are many things most people need that I don’t, so it’s quite plausible that I have a need not everyone shares. But it is a need, and while my day-to-day life was less stressed and I was less irritable when I didn’t have children, I also felt more empty and numb.
As for *marriage* satisfaction, I think this has to be a “well, duh.” When you are married or in a committed relationship and have no kids, all of your attention and love can be directed at the other. When you have kids, the children need to come first and the marriage partner second. (Not all the time and in every situation, but as a general thing.) So of *course* the marriage will suffer. But will the *people* in the marriage suffer more if they have kids or don’t have them? I suspect that most people who do not have children choose not to have them—between adoption and infertility treatments, if you have a desperate desire for a child you can fulfill it. However, because having kids is a default in our society, most people who do have kids probably didn’t actively choose to have them. Thus there’s probably a skew in the data—the childfree are childfree by choice, while the parents might be parents by accident, and given how hard it is to raise kids, if you *don’t* want them desperately I can’t see how you could enjoy having them.
This won’t be a popular article, except of course for those of us childless people who are annoyed at the sanctimonious pity we get from people trying to bully us into validating their choices by having children ourselves.
My sister actually said that she designated my husband and I as guardians of her children should she and her husband die because we’d had enough fun already. And she wasn’t kidding.
The satisfaction of knowing you are continuing your values and legacy into the next generation of this human adventure can’t be measured.
So sure you’re continuing your values, eh? I guess most parents are ... which is why they’re so shocked and horrified when their child comes home and declares that their religious beliefs, sexuality, or interests are outside the “values” of the parents. Not to say that this will be your case, but that ... well, it happens. A lot.
I don’t want to pick on this quote so much, but I hear this sentiment a lot from parents. That they want to pass on their genes or pass on their legacy or pass on their values. You can never be sure of these kinds of things, because children are not extensions of yourself. They are their own individual selves.
I’m too lazy to read the original article, but....
I wonder is the study grouped all parents together, or classified them beyond life stage. For instance, I strongly suspect that planned pregnancies result in happier families than unplanned pregnancies, that women who dealt with infertility are happier than women who didn’t (once they become parents, as an extension of the planned v. unplanned thing). Also, if the child has health or development issues, or if the mother had post partum depression, etc. etc. etc.
I think it’s VERY safe to say that children don’t inherently make you happy, but that there are indeed many situations wherein people are happier with children than without.
And it’s ADORABLE when they stamp their foot and declare stuff like that!
I know a pretty tight-knit family of many relatives where, for better or for worse, no one has really gone “off the reservation” in a big way, outside of the guy with severe bipolar disorder who, despite himself, nevertheless tries to curry favor and approval in his own way.
People of all types really do have value systems that are important to them, and having a household and a family that reflects them is a pretty normal desire. People do end up making their own choices in life as they grow up, but if people didn’t have values that were important to them, they’d be much less likely to want to inculcate those values to the next generation in the first place. I find it odd that you would consider this so surprising… particularly in the USA where letting kids go “feral” when it comes to picking up a value system from the surrounding culture is definitely a bad idea.
Count us in the happy parents minority… smartest thing I ever did was wait until age 27 to get married and 30 to have our first daughter. We like our family alot…
BoN, you’re onto something there- we’ve made a point of telling the girls that our job is to educate, guide and support them, but at the end of the day- their choices in life are their own to make.
If either of these terrific people turned into a “Mini-Me”, I’d want to hit them with a shovel and bury the evidence. One pain-in-the-ass Louise on this planet is enough!
I think it’s almost guaranteed that a child will continue the more subtle values of their parents. For instance, my parents are conservative Republicans, card carrying NRA members, racist, etc. etc. etc. Needless to say, I’m about dead opposite of that. But I do have my father’s work ethic, sense of humor, commitment to honesty, my step-mother’s love of gardening, my mother’s love of reading and fierce independence. Heck, I even got my feminism from her.
In a lot of ways I’ve very much rebelled against my parents, but in other more subtle but I dare say more important ways, I’m just like them.
That familial bond is really important when bad things happen--what happens when a child is born handicapped? No one would choose to have a child born handicapped but it happens, and it’s not necessarily a tragedy for all concerned. It takes more work, and more effort and stress and sadness, but, again, the rewards can more than make up for it for some people.
Caren, have I told you today that I luvs you???
Having an autistic child isn’t something we thought we’d face, but count us into the “not a tradegy” group. Yeah, Jean’s situation has been a huge challenge- but not a disaster. Her diagnosis just caused a reshuffling and rethinking of priorities, as well as a helluva learning experience… I went from being a med lab tech to a SAHM due to necessity.
And this fall, I am volunteering tat her old elementary school (Jean’s stepping up to middle school! Yay!)to work with her younger ex-classmates. Teaching math is something I found I can do quite well and have the patience for- go figure!
I don’t find the results of these studies counterintuitive or upsetting in the least. On the other hand, I don’t think knowing on an intellectual level that marital satisfaction will decline, that life stress will increase, and that day-to-day happiness will decrease will make any difference in a person’s calculus on whether to become a parent or not. People tend to assume they will be the exception or outlier. No matter what anybody else tells you, no matter how prepared you think you are, the day that child enters your life things completely change and it can be very difficult to adjust no matter how willing you are to make the changes.
I always knew I wanted children and I’ve always had a sort of depressive streak that makes me trend toward general unhappiness anyway, so the fact that parenthood was not all butterflies and ponies was not unexpected. The suicidal ideation and crippling sense of isolation in the first year was, however, more than I anticipated. It is also very difficult having to constantly put your own needs aside to address another’s needs or wants-- for women in particular, there is a tendency to not pay attention to ourselves at all once we become parents. But as someone mentioned above, becoming a parent enabled me to form a social network I would not have had as a single or childless-married individual. I also re-negotiated my marital relationship to make it more egalitarian because if it had not changed I would have filed for divorce. The kidlet makes me vulnerable, awestruck, intuitive, open, stressed, and yes, happy, and my life would be the poorer without him in it. I never knew I had this amount of love in me, that I could fall in love with someone more every day no matter how much they frustrated me. A quote I once heard was that being a parent was like having your heart walking around outside your body.
Obviously, not everyone feels that kids complete their life, nor should everyone feel that way. I agree that as a society we need to move further toward seeing children as a deliberate choice and provide the institutional and social support for everyone’s choices.
the sanctimonious pity we get from people trying to bully us into validating their choices by having children ourselves.
Does this happen in person, like, to your face? Or is this bullying more a matter of texts and/or societal ideals? My wife and I get the occasional quasi-guilt-trip from our parents, along the lines of “Wouldn’t it be nice to have a child? It would be such a cute baby!” On first meeting people, we get asked if we have kids, and occasionally if we plan to. Sometimes a particularly persistent questioner will make my wife feel like she has to defend herself. But apart from that—which isn’t really all that common—I don’t think I’ve experienced being bullied into validating the choice to have children as A Good Thing.
I’d be interested in seeing if this research was done in more than one country, or on Americans alone.
Specifically, I wonder if forty years of conservative social policy hasn’t, in fact, made America a hellish place in which to raise children, increasing parental stress, especially when compared to more truly child/family friendly societies such as found in godless, commie Europe.
FlipYrWig, I got that one ALOT. Waiting until 27 to marry (lived together for 4 years), then 30 to have kid- my dad asked why the hell I even bothered to get married. I bit my tongue…
And then again, after our 2nd daughter was born, I got the “When are you going to have a BOY???” speech- right to my face and in front of a large group of relatives by one particularly noisy aunt. It’s only because she lives next-door to my parents and life would have been a screaming hell for my mother that I nicely joked it off rather than telling her to STFU.
So oh yeah- people WILL nag and mind your own business for you.
FlipYrWhig—have you talked to your wife about how she perceives this demand to defend her decision to not have children?
Men are generally not bullied about this shit like women are. They might have a parent or other close relative who wants them to have children, but if my husband says “we’re not having kids” in mixed company people leave him alone. When *I* say “we’re not having kids” it’s a whole ‘nother story.
Because as someone who has people frequently DEMAND that she defend her decision to not procreate, I can tell you it feels an awful lot like bullying, particularly when the dismissive “you will never know what real happiness is” remarks start whizzing by your head.
Oh yeah, I know my kids won’t be carbon copies of me and the wife, and I’m looking forward to that. But as Ashley said, values are about a lot more than religion and politics.
I am raising my children in a (non fundamentalist) faith, and I hope that it provides them with guidance, comfort, and support during life’s hard times. But all I can do is raise them with love and live by example, and then they get to make their own decision. I won’t disown them if they become atheists or join another religion, but I’d still be sad. It would be dishonest for almost all but the most saintly to say otherwise. Very few can say they don’t want their values/culture/religion/embattled ethnic group to survive and thrive into the future.
Oddly enough, I think having a lot of children may protect against getting too bent outta shape if one or two of them decides to totally rebel. I won’t lie, I would be upset if I had only one child and he or she decided to be childfree --- but since I have more than one, I’m more able to accept any quirks. Nothing could make me stop LOVING my child, but stuff like that would upset me greatly and significantly decrease my personal happiness.
I was the black sheep of my large family, being the only introvert and all, so I wouldn’t be surprised if my kids take me on a rollercoaster
Count me among the women who’ve had to defend my decision not to have kids to people’s faces. What pisses me off is that whenever a stranger brings it up and I say, “I don’t want kids” you get the inevitable, “You’ll change your mind” or better yet, “You don’t know what you want [right now],” whereas had I said I DID want kids, somehow magically my female brain WOULD know what *it* wants and it’s just a coinky dink that it happens to fall in line with what the rest of society expects of me. I got into a heated argument with a former friend because he insisted that because his female friends who said they didn’t want kids and then had oops babies meant that I’d change my mind due to a biological clock and blah blah more bullshit. So yeah, it happens and it’s annoying as hell.
It would be dishonest for almost all but the most saintly to say otherwise.
No offense, but I’ve always seen the fact that my parents were pretty cool with my decision not to specifically not remain a practicing Christian when I declined to be confirmed at 15. They didn’t even try to convince me otherwise. Even now that the decision has obviously stuck, I rarely hear a word from them about it. Every once in a while my dad will send me a theological text, but I think it’s more about shared interest in metaphysical arguments and philosophy (and an overall respect for the concept of religion in an anthropological sense) than an attempt to get me back into the fold. And I grew up in a very devout household—both of my parents were very religious during my childhood, and both are still equally religious today.
Of all the totally fucked up mistakes they made bringing me up, I think that basic respect for my intelligence and maturity is the best example of the fact that in all the ways that count, they raised me right.
This is starting to remind me of that study that showed that conservatives are happier people than liberals. Does that mean we should all reconsider being liberals because we would be happier with our everyday lives if we started listening to Rush Limbaugh instead?
“Does that mean we should all reconsider being liberals because we would be happier with our everyday lives if we started listening to Rush Limbaugh instead?”
Hell YEAH kids decrease happiness. You have to start spending your time thinking about what they would want, not just what you want. Now that might make you less selfish, but since when did unselfish = happy? As a society, we’ve internalized the whole “what makes you miserable is good for you line” so much that we can’t understand that things that might be growth experiences aren’t always things you’ll look back on and say, “Gee, wasn’t that grand?” My divorce was a growth experience, but I have never found myself waxing nostalgic for it.
I have a kid, and I love him to pieces. I’m missing him right now as he spends the summer with his dad. But If I could go back in time to before he was born, and tell my child-less self the skinny on raising a kid, ther would be one less koneko in this world!
Having kids can be eye-opening. It can make a better person out of you. It can give you some Hallmark moments to look back on. So can rescuing a dog or doing community service or studying abroad.
I think Caren put it really well, back up at the top. Another great way I heard it put once (maybe by a commenter at BitchPhD, can’t remember for sure): Parenting is 70 percent hard work and tedium and 30 percent rewarding, but the part that is rewarding feels so great that when you’re in those rewarding times, you almost forget about the other 70 percent. Which sort of accounts both for the fact that having children reduces happiness and that parents can be very enthusiastic about having kids. It’s not just that we want you to join us in our miserableness. It’s that when we think about parenting, we think about the rewarding parts.
None of which is to excuse people who say things like “You’ll change your mind” or “Why haven’t you had kids yet?” Those people should stop. Nor does it mean that some people with kids really shouldn’t have had them. And I think we would be better off if people realized that the hard work part can really take its toll. Too many people still have this notion that having a child means you’ll have someone who loves you unconditionally. More people should realize that it’s not their kids’ job to love them. It’s their job to love their kids.
FlypYrWhig: As an infertile who wants children, I get pestered all. the. frigging. time. 10 minutes after my husband proposed my step mother in law asked when we were having kids, and at the reception. I get asked if I have kids all the time, and if not, when, and then they want to know why.
I always debate at that point in giving them the graphic description (I’m a recurrent miscarrier).
Even my next door neighbor, who has seen me go through 2 miscarriages, had a bad habit of asking me EVERY TIME she saw me if I was pregnant. Seriously, every time. It wasn’t until SHE had a miscarriage that she stopped pestering me.
My infertility/lack of children has come up at work, parties, family events, etc. etc. etc. It’s really quite oppressive, and I have since ceased asking people about the results, or lack thereof, of their sex life.
I agree with chingona and with Caren way way back upthread. But I’d like to add that no one leads any life but their own. Couples report happiness when they don’t have kids? They can’t know whether they would have been happier without them. And “couples report stress from having kids?” They can’t actually know whether they would have been stressed without them. Hell, I didn’t even know what *marriage* would be like before I got into it, how can I/could I have known what children would be like. And that doesn’t even take into account the fact that the children we have are not the children we thought they would be, or the life we have isn’t the life we thought it would be. But there’s no going backwards and reliving those choices. I had a younger sister who died when she was six--would my mother have been “happier” without having had a child who died? Sure! But that isn’t the same as saying she would have been “happier” if she’d had no children, or even “no little aimai sister” because that child also brought her quite a bit of happiness while she was here with us. A friend of ours has a tall, handsome, son who had a serious head injury last year and he is no longer as handsome, or intelligent, or indpendent as he was. Does that retroactively make having had him the first time a bad decision? Well, its too late to change your mind, you have to forge ahead and deal with the live you end up with. I’d like to add that every person interviewed for these amazing studies of happiness are at some kind of midpoint, a snapshot, of an ongoing life that they don’t really control. The illusion that we can choose the life we are going to live--finding our soul mate? the perfect job? the marriage? the children? and that its always going to be as good as it was for five minutes on the first day is an illusion. I’m all for people who don’t want children not having children, but don’t confuse that decision with one that excludes unhappiness or creates greater happiness. You just can’t know that--just as I can’t know that my incredible joy at my children and their accomplishments and their amazingness won’t turn to ashes one day after a car accident. Call no man happy until he is dead, the greeks said, because it is possible for a person to be very happy at one point, and die a miserable death later.
I was agnostic about having children until I actually got to know some women with babies/young kids. It became very obvious very quickly that motherhood was not for me. I like being an auntie and being part of a child’s life, but I don’t want any of my own. On the other hand, one of my oldest friends is a single mother, struggling income-wise, pulled in about 3 million directions, raised in an abusive/neglectful home, the whole nine yards, and she’s an excellent and loving, if extremely sleep deprived, parent. I have never seen her so happy. So, you know, to each her own.
Of course, when people start questioning my “I do not want kids, ever” statement, the gloves come off. I particularly like to tell people that children are extremely tender and delicious when slow-roasted.* It doesn’t win the argument, but it does tend to make people think that I’m too crazy to talk to, which is fine with me.
The point isn’t whether kids are a net gain or a net loss in the happiness department: no study can tell you whether you personally will enjoy or regret having children.
The point IS the debunking of the myth that Children=Happiness - that having a child will fix whatever’s making you unhappy and that if you don’t have children you’ll never be truly fulfilled. It’s an incredibly damaging myth for both mothers and childfree women - the former feel very disillusioned and often resentful when the promised happiness fails to materialize, and many of them think that something must be wrong with them. As for the childfree, some of them pine for what they think they’re missing, and those who don’t think they’re missing anything still have to put up with bullying, condescension and pity from others.
So it sucks for everyone.
As for me, I’ve known I didn’t want children for as long as I can remember. I’m nearing 30 now and people are still saying “You’ll change your mind.”. It’s so insulting - I can’t imagine what would happen if I said “you’ll change your mind” about someone else’s lifestyle choice - like, say, a career, a marriage, or a religion. The shit would truly hit the fan…
Barack Hussien Obama is not the right guy for the job. He has no credentials and is a baby senator, not qualified to run America. His ideas and plans sound good and everything, but are unattainable and are just lies, his plan to just get in. He is living in an imaginary world and needs to wake up to the world around him. Don’t believe him. Barack Hussie nObama = 6 6 6 . No matter what he says he is a muslim. His father and stepfather are muslims and in the eyes of all muslims that makes him one. He is unpatriotic, from his stupid excuses to why he doesn’t wear a flag pendent to his crazy, black, racist, damning America preacher and mentor. He is the charming, charismatic, mesmorizing, speaker that the devil is. He wants to talk and negotiate with America’s enemies, to pull troops out, to let them reorganize and stregthen, and then eventually side with them. Obama’s real name is Mabus. Nostradamus talks of Obama, the third antichrist of middle eastern background, ‘The Black One’. He is the devil. He will be the next President of the United States. America is blinded by Obama’s image and is persuded by the media’s portrayal. The media positivly portrays Obama, but is always negative against McCain. Its sick. McCain’s views are the truth and the correct way to handle things in this time of war. Which is a neccassary war. McCain is realistic on the way to deal with America’s enemies. McCain’s experience in the Senate and as an Air Force Officer/Pilot and POW gives him exceptional qualifications to run a country that is being attacked, on a Biblical scale. McCain knows how to get this country under control; the economy, fuel prices, illegal immigration. America is clearly divided into two, McCain Americans and Obama Americans. The Obama Americans want change but don’t want to make the sacrifices to do so. They want low gas prices but down want to drill causing harm to the environment. They want a border security but don’t want a wall that may disrupt natural mirgation of wildlife. They want lower taxes and don’t want to support a war they think they know so much about and don’t see a wider picture of our purpose and responsibility as Americans to respond to their attacks and their inhumanity to their people in their own region. America needs to be strong to be able to defend it’s enemies. We need to stand together as one country and unite on our way of thinking or we aren’t going to stand. The muslims are set in their plans to destroy the west and Israel and for Islam to be the world religion. They burn Bibles and flags, dancing and chanting ‘Death To America’ daily. They get upset and cry when a Quran is treated the same way and want an apology for it. They get upset and cry when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed when I see cartoons of Jesus helping Santa and boxing Satan on South Park and can laugh about it, but yet they want an apology. We want our apology. They aren’t going to stop. The way they think is backwards. They are ignorant in their views and only see their own way. We have to check them. They are the enemies of Israel and that makes them the enemies of God. This is a holy war that must be fought in the name of God. Obama is just going to cause more problems and just weaken our nation. He is a muslim. The muslims around the world support him and praise his name. Obama’s views are completly unrealistic and are just lies to brainwash the American people to follow and believe in him. ‘Change We Can Believe In’, he is the anti-christ. Just lies to get the vote. He is the devil and will be America’s next President. In 2012, around election time, 3.5 years into his rule we will see his true self and intentions. He will declare himself a world leader to be worshipped and embraced as a god. 2012 is the Chinese year of the Dragon, in which divine and other worldly events occur on year. Dec 21 2012 the earth completes a precession on its axis which will cause shift of poles and magnetic fields. Also the day when the sun rises and aligns with the center of our Milky Way Galaxy and passes into the 13th zodiac which is a man wrestling a snake, symbolizing a time of struggle with evil. The Mayans predicted a beginning of a new cycle of change. The four horsemen are riding now. The natural disasters, climate change, world hunger, oil crisis, and a holy war. These are the end times and Obama is the devil.
They get upset and cry when a Quran is treated the same way and want an apology for it. They get upset and cry when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed when I see cartoons of Jesus helping Santa and boxing Satan on South Park and can laugh about it, but yet they want an apology. We want our apology.
Trey Parker and Matt Stone are Muslims? It explains so much ....
Back on topic—sort of—I’m really hoping that the next 20 years or so will put paid to the myth that sex = desire for parenthood. It should be pretty clear by now that there are thousands of gay people out there who want to raise children but who have no interest in having the long-term romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex that having kids required for the previous several hundred thousand years.
Lots of hetero people don’t want kids. Lots of homo people do. And it’s because the desire to raise children and the desire to have sex with someone of the opposite gender are not the same desire.
Thanks to all for the responses. I was mostly wondering to what degree this harassment was done by strangers, vs. friends, vs. family. I expect strangers to keep their ideas about my intimate matters to themselves. It’s always sadly illuminating to find out the kind of stuff women have to put up with in daily life.
(My wife and I are approaching 40. I’m hoping this kind of thing diminishes, but it might just accelerate.)
Been a loooooong time since we had a new baby troll to play with- they keep putting their widdle toez in da air and stop moving after a few days. Then they get smelly.
Welcome, cute widdle baby troll!!! Any other pearlz of wizdum???
This is to echo some stuff upthread, but what I find really odd about Ali’s article is its assumption that people have kids in order to be more happy. It’s just that assumption that is supposed to make Gilbert’s findings so startling. But I don’t think it’s true.
If it were true, then people would indeed be pretty poor at planning for their goals. Even setting aside all the stress and hard work in raising kids, having someone that you love means that you’ll be unhappy if she’s unhappy, and you’ll be worried if she’s behaving in ways potentially bad for herself. Kids go through lots of periods of being unhappy before they leave the home, and lots of periods of behaving in ways potentially bad for themselves. Surely everyone knows this. If day-to-day happiness is your goal, you should make sure you don’t end up loving any kids, or perhaps just adopt an 18-year-old.
I had a kid because I wanted to raise one with my spouse. I wanted that relationship; I believed it would be meaningful, enriching, compelling and so forth. (Which is not at all to say that I think this particular relationship is necessary for a meaningful life. Hardly.) I bet that’s true of others. It may be that people (falsely) believe they have kids, or do whatever it is they do, to be happier. It may be we tend to accede unthinkingly to the highly circumscribed conceptions of human motivation taken for granted by economists and psychologists (like Gilbert) influenced by them.
Day-to-day happiness still matters a lot, of course. But the real issues about happiness and child-raising aren’t in play for Ali at all: namely having the requisite social support structures, and combating the extreme gender inequality in division of labor mentioned by Amanda, so as to help limit some of the unhappy-making aspects of child-raising.
Also, one quick remark regarding some of the comments above that imply that it would be better for the environment if people had less kids in general. Of course, this is true. But the relevance of this point for the decision-making of the sort of people who tend, say, to read Pandagon, (or, in Amanda’s example, would pursue an artistic vocation instead of raising kids) is, I think, questionable. If you are a progressive person capable of raising a well-adjusted, progressive kid, you can be confident that the question of the net cost/benefit of your having a child on the environment is, at the very least, impossible to judge one way or the other with confidence. If only some more kids had been born in the early ‘80’s who would have voted for Gore, after all, they’d have been worth their carbon footprint and then some. And someone’s got to grow up to work the phones at the Sierra Club.
“It should be pretty clear by now that there are thousands of gay people out there who want to raise children but who have no interest in having the long-term romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex that having kids required for the previous several hundred thousand years.”
Ehn. Pretty much since there’ve been people, there’ve been a surplus of kids. Any given fertile couple is capable of producing way more than they can easily raise; it stands to reason that gay folks have been helping to fill the gap to one degree or another for just as long. They wouldn’t be their genetic children, but most societies have recognized adoption, apprenticeship, and other non-blood familial or quasi-familial bonds as official, legitimate, and respectable. Opposite-sex coupling is the only unassisted way to produce a child, but it’s hardly the only means of acquiring one, especially in places where birth control is difficult or impossible to practice.
Jason, that’s a great point (about the happiness). I’ve been trying to craft a comment to that effect, but kept thinking that people would think I was crazy if I questioned whether happiness is really the point. Aimai kind of got at this, too. And you both put it probably better than I was going to - or at least in a way more understandable to people who don’t have/want kids. It’s not that I’m anti-happiness. Like most, I generally prefer being happy to not being happy, but I don’t think the desire to be happy was what drove my decision to reproduce.
And I think most people make decisions all the time, childless or with child, that maybe somewhat reduce their maximum happiness for some greater good - we give money to causes we like when we could spend it on ourselves, or we do something because it will make someone else happy, even if it’s not our favoritist thing.
Opposite-sex coupling is the only unassisted way to produce a child, but it’s hardly the only means of acquiring one, especially in places where birth control is difficult or impossible to practice.
Yes, that was my point: the desire for hetero sex and the desire to raise a child are not the same thing.
Of course people who didn’t want to or couldn’t marry and have their own biological children have always figured out a way around it if they wanted to raise children. My point is that we may finally be starting to understand that the two urges are not actually linked the way various religions would like us to believe.
*blink* You’re supposed (by the culture) to think that having kids will make you perfectly happy? I...think I missed out on that bit of programming. (Not that I don’t believe it’s there--just that it seems so very alien to me.) Maybe it’s because I grew up with lots of brothers and sisters, and while I felt that having kids was the “normal” thing to do, and a reasonable and fine thing, it never seemed to be a panacea. I am pretty sure I don’t want kids, although it’s possible I’ll change my mind. The thing that gets me worrying is the idea that “if you do, you’ll become a better person; if you don’t, you’re selfish.” ‘Cause I could definitely stand to be a better person, and know I have a wide streak of laziness! But if I had kids just to prove a point, I know that would be a very bad reason, and I’d really end up wishing I hadn’t--which is a pretty horrible thing, particularly for a kid. ("Mom wishes you didn’t exist” has got to hurt a lot.)
Nenya, Vala of Peanut-Butter Cookies on 07/01 at 01:40 AM
At least in the UK, I think the cultural ideas about why you *should* have children are quite class-specific. At the working class level I think the main cultural factors encouraging women to have children are because it may give you a respected matriarchal status in the community, it provides you with ‘work’ which may be more personally fulfilling than other options (shop-work, working in care homes etc), and (for teenage mothers in particular) it provides you with someone to love and to love you.
I think that for those who are trying to encourage reluctant middle-class women into having children, the ‘you will be happier’ is no longer very effective. The more potent (because harder to counter) are the ‘lonely old age’ idea (which is an issue when women outlive men) and the ‘making an impact on the future’. The latter does have traction, because (as gets pointed out in a different context), not many people look back on their lives and wish they’d spent more time at work. Very few of us in our professional lives will leave a legacy that lives substantially after us (indeed some of the projects I worked so hard on have already been scrapped a few years down the line), but something of our values and ideas and memories may live on via children. I don’t say either of these are good reasons in themselves to choose to have children, but they do have emotional resonance (to me at least).
“He also ascertains that parents are happier grocery shopping and even sleeping than spending time with their kids.”
Surely that’s a misprint, no? First of all grocery shopping is fun. Second of all sleeping (especially naps, especially naps at work) is so much fun the DEA would start a culture-war against it if they could figure out how. And finally, my two children are sitting a few feet away, one reading the other re-reading the first Harry Potter book and the younger one’s being an absolute riot about it. So much so that the older one is remembering how much of a thrill that first read though was and so, for that matter, am I.
Dear sweet mother of pearl I’d never ask someone else to have a child in hopes they’d enjoy it as much as I generally do, and I completely understand that depending on how you define “happiness” then sure, children subtracts happiness the way, oh, say, having to move away from home and spend a lot of time working, or (worse!) living in a place you can afford to live in based on what you earn from that job also subtracts happiness. But it’s a dumb comparison. As the old Seinfeld skit went, not a lot of people say they want to graduate, get a good job, get a place of their own, and then maybe move back in with their parents for a while when they turn 30. Having children is like that too.
FlipYrWhig, I get bugged/harassed all the time about having kids and I already have two. Not so much by perfect strangers (and not so much by family/close friends, either, because they all know my position on this subject), but more by coworkers and passing acquaintances. If I had a dollar for every time someone asked if I was going to “try for a girl” because I simply must have a daughter and wouldn’t she be just so beautiful, then I’d be a rich woman. And when I say that the two kids I have already are plenty, thanks, I get the “you’ll change your mind” and “accidents happen” speeches. It is incredibly annoying.
And yeah, I do love my kids, they’re funny and smart and adorable, and I don’t regret having them (although if I had it to do over again, I probably would have not had the second one), being someone’s parent is stressful and infuriating and difficult. It’s also rewarding and joyful and sometimes even fun. I didn’t know I was capable of so much love and I also didn’t know I was capable of so much sadness. I would agree with whoever upthread said that being a parent makes the highs higher and the lows lower. And it definitely helps that I actively chose this--I couldn’t imagine the resentment I’d feel if it were forced on me.
It’s weird. I don’t get asked about marriage/children at all. I’m still young, I guess, so immune, but I would have expected more pressure at this point. I’m in a technical field and I tend to get some immunity from that as well - an unmarried engineer woman isn’t supposed to want kids, I suppose.
Ironically, I DO want kids, but my mom doesn’t want me to get any ideas of being a single mother (apparently it’s hard, or so I hear) so she keeps dropping hints about NOT having kids. Amusing and endearing, I think.
Friends and mothers of friends don’t even try to ask. I get the impression that I’m a vicarious life for them - freedom, money, sex. I don’t have the heart to tell them otherwise.
My kids have always been higher-maintenance than most kids, and everything about raising them was and still is a struggle. (It didn’t help that their mother—now my ex-wife—has never been an easy person to deal with.) I can’t say that it was “happy” in a conventional sense.
Yet I grew in ways that I never would have if I had had easier kids, or a better marriage. I have developed capacities I could never have dreamed of, and, in my sixth decade, I realize that as a result I have a deeper perspective than most people my age. I cannot imagine who I would have been if I had never had kids. I sometimes think I was crazy to marry their mother, and if I had not been so screwed up at the time, there’s no way I would have. Yet if I had not, they would never have been born, which to me now seems like living without arms or legs. I have never once thought it was not worth it.
All the stuff people complain about with kids—it was hard and sometimes unpleasant, but I never thought it was so terrible. If you have the right attitude, poopy diapers (or blowouts!) and getting up several times every night and spending an hour or two every night getting your kid to sleep aren’t so bad. They’re just what you do, like buying groceries or scraping ice off the windshield, or, if you’re a jogger, getting up at 4:00 a.m. every morning to run a half-dozen miles. But then, I’m not the sort of person who was made to lie around and eat bon bons.
Maybe it’s like white-water rafting, or climbing Mount Everest. Most of the time you’re going to be miserable, yet the people who do it would not have missed it for the world.
Maybe I should rephrase my opening remark: the happiness that you seek and expect will almost always disappoint you, but the happiness that falls into your lap (or on your head) while you’re getting on with life is like no joy you can imagine.
I think you’re spot on with the “lifestyle choice” argument. I do research on marriage and have found the same thing with regard to “wedded bliss.” As marriage has become more of a lifestyle choice than an economic necessity there is actually much more pressure placed on couples to make marriage/family the primary source of happiness and they find themselves anxious and stressed out when it fails to be perfect. And I think with parenting--as the comments suggest--the stakes are raised because complaining or raising doubts about the joy of parenthood brings a lot of social opprobrium.
I love that condom ad.