Um. No doubt what Chuck is worried about and what I am worried about don’t show a huge overlap on the ole’ Venn diagram.

But I too am a little leery of the gummint doing this kind of thing. I’m not quite old enough to remember when government home workers recommended (and enforced) sterilization procedures on people they didn’t deem worthy - but gramma sure does.

Someone should go grab a giant paper bag, put Chuck Norris inside it, and tell him to act his way out. We’d never hear from him again.

Other Western democracies send nurses into the community to visit new moms and check on babies. You know—for HEALTH reasons.

Two weeks ago on the National Mall in D.C., I overheard a woman barking at her daughter (who was about 7) that she was “gonna stick my foot up your ass.” When the woman overheard me telling my husband about it, she threatened to stick her foot up *my* ass. She switched to being nice to the girl, lured her onto her lap for a hug—and berated her some more. Total abusive control-freak mindfuck, right? Yeah. I think a home visit from a public health provider might be of some use to families like that.

...

Plus, this is the best way for the death panels to identify younger targets for elimination.

Really?  They’re flipping their shit over well-baby visits now?

The most ironic part about right-wing outrage over these sections is that they were put in place as a sop to conservative lawmakers.

I sincerely doubt, like the end-of-life counseling, that this going to be a mandated for everyone service. It strikes me as something that is done in “at risk” parenting situations, instead of yanking kids out of homes and severing families, approaching it from an intervene-at-home approach. Very young parents, houses with abuse or negligence investigations, prior drug issues, etc. are some of the situations I can think of where this would be a valuable service. And remember it is Norris’s words, not the bills, that say “government agents” - it could be community health nurses or social workers from religious organizations, even. The states are the ones to decide which programs will receive funds, it doesn’t have to be government created programs.

This is sounding like “Obama is intruding on our right to beat our children!” nattering, exactly the kind of people that would be opposed to home-based initiatives to educate about child development and parenting skills.

Hm, I don’t see any reference to “parental principles and values” except where he put it in himself.  Seems to me like its a pretty benign “give information and help to people who want it” program.  “Provid[ing] parents with knowledge” is not synonymous with “usurping parental rights over child care and development”, I’m afraid. 

Somehow I doubt Norris would object to prayer in school, teaching of intelligent design, and that straight is the only way to be.  I guess progressive principles and values deserve to be usurped.

Oh ffs. Nobody is talking about letting government workers instill values into your children.

I don’t know exactly what these programs would entail, as I only see these minimal quotes. If they are modelled after some of the current ones I would have an objection only on one real principle- currently home visit type programs are given to poor families. Which pisses me right the hell off because it is assumed somehow that poor=ignorant. Having education available is a good thing, but the assumption that anytime someone applies for assistance that gives the government the right to send in social workers to analyze everything you do or say is disturbing. I remember when I was receiving WIC benefits for a time and I would have to attend “nutrition classes” about the food pyramid and was spoken to like a child when my daughters didn’t fit into the growth charts. (First child went through a HUGE growth spurt that the pediatrician was just fine with, she wasn’t “fat”. Second child has Down syndrome- they wouldn’t use growth charts specifically for kids with DS, so she showed up as too short and too fat.) I also had a nurse visit my home after the birth of my first child, because I used medical coupons. It’s supposed to be a nice follow-up to make sure mom and baby are settling in well, but the fact it is offered only to people on medicaid reaffirms that idea that people on assistance are stupid.

Some programs are positive though. We had a home visit for our third child, because he seemed a bit delayed in motor skills initially. They helped identify what I should be watching for and gave me reassurance that he would catch up, which he did rapidly. Having VOLUNTARY visits to help people understand their child’s development could be a good use of resources. MANDATORY ones would smack of control. I have a feeling though these are voluntary programs that would be offered to the public…

This sounds much like the Plunket organisation which started in NZ and has been widely copied all over the world.

Suffice it to say, it is not been the toehold for the ruthless jackboot of fascist oppression.

I wonder when The Bat Boy is going to come out with an article condemning Healthcare Reform, maybe on the pages of the WSJ.

I mean, if this is a circus (and it has obviously turned in to one), why hold back?...

I don’t see much concern about parental principles and values when it comes having the government sponsor a prayer—even if it is a generic prayer to some generic god—for schoolchildren. The only value in school prayer I see is that it allows lazy parents to fob off their responsibility to their children on a government agency; yet opponents are accused of being against religion!

Slightly OT: A thought struck me while looking through a wingnut blog.

Make up some signs along these lines:

“NO TO SOCIALISM!!
“NO to OBAMACARE! NO to MEDICARE! NO to SOCIAL SECURITY!
“First we STOP ObamaCare!  Then we REPEAL Medicare and Social Security!”

Then go and march angrily with the ranters…

Well, I don’t want Chuck Norris’ swelled head to explode, but people are employed to do this kind of stuff right now. And I don’t even think the agencies providing these services are making a profit!

And why, in the name of Jesus’ golden unicycle, is Chuck asking himself, “With whose parental values and principles?” He’s the first to mention this. It’s certainly not in the passage he quoted. I’m seriously concerned with the conservatives’ ability to read. I tutor kids in reading at the local library. Maybe they should be my students.

Two weeks ago on the National Mall in D.C., I overheard a woman barking at her daughter (who was about 7) that she was “gonna stick my foot up your ass.” When the woman overheard me telling my husband about it, she threatened to stick her foot up *my* ass. She switched to being nice to the girl, lured her onto her lap for a hug—and berated her some more. Total abusive control-freak mindfuck, right? Yeah. I think a home visit from a public health provider might be of some use to families like that.

I would have found the nearest police officer and told them about it. If she did that to her daughter in public, it’s probably 10 times worse at home.

There are similar programs all over, and they’re generally acknowledged to be very successful, helping find families with troubles before they become families which are trouble.

This is already happening with well established programs like Healthy Start and New Parent Network. Both of which, I believe, are funded at least in part by government grants. My particular program was provided from a grant to Lutheran Family Services under Bush’s faith-based initiative program. All of these programs are voluntary.

I had preemie twins, and I had a nurse come to my home and check on them for the first three years periodically. She helped me with breastfeeding, getting formula set up with WIC, checked on their weight and did basic developmental assessments to track their milestones. All of which helped me immensely since monitoring their growth was extremely important (they had eating difficulties and were small to begin with) and to travel (by public transit in my case) to the peds office every few weeks.

Another part of the program (all voluntary) was a child development specialist that came to my house once a month or so and answered questions and gave me just basic feeding, development, etc. information. She was also a good resource for finding mom groups and other ways to connect in the community as well as activities for kids to do.

These programs always had waiting lists and were always struggling with funding. So I think having some kind of steady funding source would be beneficial to a lot of parents out there. So this is just another tactic like the death panel thing. It is taking valued services that are voluntary and already being provided to a great benefit to lots of people, and securing expanded funding for them.

Geez, more goddamned ignorant lying.

Interestingly enough, the section that Chuck quotes above is paragraph f.1.A.i and f.1.A.ii on page 844. If we move up one level, to paragraph f.1.A at the bottom of page 843, anyone care to guess what we might find?

(f) ELIGIBLE EXPENDITURES.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—In this section, the term ‘eligible expenditures’—
‘‘(A) means expenditures to provide voluntary home visitation for as many families with young children (under the age of school entry) and families expecting children as practicable, (emphasis mine)

And it’s all an amendment to Title X1X, which already provides these types of programs.

(paragraph b.3.C: in supporting home visitation programs using funds provided under this section, the State will promote coordination and collaboration with other home visitation programs (including programs funded under title XIX) and with other child and family services, health services, income supports, and other related assistance;)

Two weeks ago on the National Mall in D.C., I overheard a woman barking at her daughter (who was about 7) that she was “gonna stick my foot up your ass.” When the woman overheard me telling my husband about it, she threatened to stick her foot up *my* ass. She switched to being nice to the girl, lured her onto her lap for a hug—and berated her some more. Total abusive control-freak mindfuck, right? Yeah. I think a home visit from a public health provider might be of some use to families like that.

I highly doubt that.  A social worker or public health provider wouldn’t be able to get in the door if the program is voluntary.  Voluntary programs only help people who want to be helped, but I’m sure it can do some good for parents who bully their kids simply because that’s what their own parents did and they don’t know any different.  In my experience truly abusive control freaks don’t get any better until/unless they’re forced to change.

Yeah, in my community I paid a lot of money for that exact service from a wonderful organization. I paid so much because I was subsidizing them doing the same thing for families who couldn’t pay anything. So government funding would be nice.

It is a little weird when my child starts reciting Obama campaign speeches and praising those socialist Europeans, but I needed the advice about breastfeeding, so what could I do?

Voluntary programs only help people who want to be helped, but I’m sure it can do some good for parents who bully their kids simply because that’s what their own parents did and they don’t know any different.

I heard a really depressing story on NPR one time where they took a baby away from his mother because he was malnourished and she was pissed because she was doing better than her mother had.  She never actually hit the child, or burned him with cigarettes like her mother had done to her, so she was doing fine, right?  She asked the social workers where the hell they had been when she was being abused as a child, and they didn’t really have an answer.

Counseling did apparently help in that case because she genuinely didn’t think she was doing anything wrong as long as she wasn’t actually hitting the child and they were able to get through to her with some classes and counseling.  But, geez, it makes you wonder how many other people are out there who are treating their children better than their parents treated them but still haven’t managed to get themselves entirely off the neglectful/abusive road.

Oh dear god, they are making Obama into “Al Gore invented the Internet” material.

BTW, my cousin lives in Holland and she got the socialist visit to her house when she had her baby girl. The government worker, a lactation nurse came a day after my cousin was discharged from the hospital, cleaned the house, cooked a meal and helped my cousin bathe and change the baby. For her first 3 days after birth my cousin got no diaper duty during the day and hot meals without her and her husband having to pay a dime.

And can Chick tell me how do you indoctrinate a newborn ?!?!?!

Ms Lea Davidson, Education and Training Officer, WA Perinatal Mental Health Unit at the Kind Edward Memorial Hospital, will be giving a talk on “Loneliness of Postnatal Depression”...

Education and Training Officer? More like Re-education and Blaming Officer, amirite? We need Chuck to visit our neck of the woods and rescue us from these ‘experts’ trying to ‘help’ us…

I was born in 1950 and at that time, both mother and baby were routinely kept in the hospital for 10 days.

Because there are life-threatening conditions for each that might within that time, I believe—but Blue Cross/Blue Shield were also non-profit in those days, so drive-by births weren’t profit making like they are now.

However, 10 days in the hospital also gave the new mother a nice rest, time to heal, and nurses the opportunity to advise on basic childcare issues.

I doubt that even a public option would require (or allow for) ten day hospital stays, but I believe in Britian, the NHS also routinely sends a government worker to help new mothers.

By the way, just to spite empty-headed Chuck, Firedoglake led a whipcount to find which members of Congress would support the Public Option.

It worked: 60 members of the House made it clear they won’t vote for a bill without a public option.

Yesterday alone, FDL and partners raised nearly $100,000 for progressive members of Congress who agree to draw a line in the sand over a public plan:

http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/08/18/were-at-67939-and-rising/

You, too, can offer carrots to these progressive politicians at ACT Blue:

http://secure.actblue.com/contribute/page/theytookthepledge?refcode=thermometer

Or do it for no other reason than to make Chuck’s head explode.

Heh, I want to see Chuck explain to me how to indoctrinate a newborn. In mere days, no less.

Must be the Kenyan Muslin socialist Voodoo of Barry Soetero. I heard it makes milk curdle and Chuck’s dick limp… Oh wait, it was limp already. See ? Obama’s mind control is working already!

This smacks to me of a logical extension both of the anti-intellectualism and the shallow, lazy hermeneutic of the religious right. First off we have the bizarre notion that every family’s perspective on development is of equal value as the perspectives offered by educated and trained professionals. To the extent that one is sensitive to cultural differences in child-rearing practices, okay, I can follow, but this is more like “how dare people with actual medical training or scientific knowledge based on a hundred years of research on child development dare interfere with my poorly-formed and barely-articulated justifications for doing whatever the hell I want with my kids.”

The other part is the idea that a) average people should be able to read complicated pieces of legislation and understand it perfectly well thankyouverymuch (just like all believers should be equally able to understand the “literal” meaning of the Bible, linguists and scripture scholars and historians of religion be damned) and b) there is no need, when citing chapter and verse of a piece of legislation to account in any way for context; isolated fragments are to plain in their meaning with no need to look before or after them for further guidance.

.How contrary is Obamacare’s home intrusion and indoctrination family services, in which state agents prioritize houses to enter and enforce their universal values and principles upon the hearts and minds of families across America?

Well, forming a social worker army to brainwash children in their own homes is one way to get America working again.  How many people do you think he’d need before his nefarious plans could be realized?  We probably barely have enough nurses and social workers to spend a few hours with families who want help and advice.  Enforcing your values on someone against their will or even just against their better judgement is a time and labor-intensive process which requires constant follow-up, plus you’d need enforcers for the enforcers just to make sure everyone’s staying on the same page.  At first you could probably contract some of the work out to the Scientologists, but the private sector cults are really only going to be a stopgap solution.

Everything I hear about the ideas for the bill makes me want this to happen NOW.  I never imagined they would be discussing putting in things like free counseling and free parenting advice.  The least I was thinking was a meeting with a breastfeeding expert or something while in the hospital.  This is just amazing.

What is wrong with wingnuts that they don’t want this?  They don’t even have to participate if they don’t want to.  So what, exactly, is the problem?  Has anybody trained in psychology thought about what mental defect they are all exhibiting?  Is it sociopathy?  I really don’t get how you could be so cold and mean and selfish that just because you don’t want something (and you don’t even have to have it; it’s just there as an option) NOBODY can have it?

I really don’t get how you could be so cold and mean and selfish that just because you don’t want something (and you don’t even have to have it; it’s just there as an option) NOBODY can have it?

Well, the rich anti-health nuts DO have anything they want, and they don’t want anyone else to have it too, or else it isn’t EXCLUSIVE and COOL.  Plus, if someone actually provides care in exchange for premiums, other consumers will expect care in return for premiums—and where does the PROFIT go?  Not into their pocketses anymore, my precious!

As for the poor anti-health nuts—>they’re dumb.  They watch Fox and listen to their fundigelical ministers.  “Daddy says this is bad, so WE HATES THEM.”  GAWD will provide, so just let the rich have all the money.  Anyone who supports the government is a socialist fascist anyway, so it’s a good thing we have our guns.

Soulless motherfuckers all.

I’m not surprised that wingnuts don’t want their children to have basic motor skills. God forbid they should be able to put one foot in front of the other and walk away from the church.

A great source of information on recent advances in early childhood family education comes from NPR’s “This American Life” with Ira Glass.  Check out #364, “Going Big,” “Act One: Harlem Renaissance.”  This program originally aired on the 14th of August 2008, but in my area it played again just last week.

The program presents the dazzling success of Harlem’s Children’s Zone, a “baby college” that helps parents in poverty dramatically improve the care that they give their children. 

The child pedagogy isn’t really radical, and it’s well known, at least to people in the suburbs: Don’t use corporal punishment, use “time outs”; read to your children; praise your children to build their self-esteem.  But this pedagogy still isn’t widely known to parents in poverty whose parents were also poor and used spanking and yelling to control them as children.

The Harlem Children’s Zone is tremendously successful.  What’s more, it’s the model that President Obama wants to replicate elsewhere.  I think this is WONDERFUL good news in a world in which there is little to be found.  If you haven’t heard this broadcast, please tune in!  A free podcast is still available at:

www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=364

Dorothy, that you for looking up the relevant bits of the bill.  I always get nervous when people cite chapter and verse, that they do so in the belief that they could say ANYTHING and no one will go look and verify.

Also, ANYTIME any right-winger brings up “parents’ rights” it’s for the right to beat their children with impunity.  Pete what-sis-face, congressman with a bug up his butt about it—comes closest to actually saying that’s what it’s code for.  Fortunately, right now he’s screaming a lot about it and no one cares—I hope Norris doesn’t change that.

Fighting the good fight against prenatal care, bless his heart.

Remember, these are the same people who think that public schools are indoctrinating their kids.

And you know something, they’re right. I’m OK with the government teaching kids not to hit each other, that people with darker skin or different eyes aren’t icky and inferior, that people who love someone of the same sex shouldn’t be stoned to death, that the earth goes around the sun.

If a home health visit indoctrinates a baby to believe that someone picking it up isn’t necessarily going to hurt it, or a parent that babies shouldn’t be hit, that’s OK with me. When the church people stop preaching about how to “correct” children (and women), we can revisit the issue.

@Emily: There weren’t any cops around, but my friend the nurse practitioner approached the woman (from a safe distance) and told her she was required by law to report it if she saw anything abusive. It seemed to tone the woman down a bit, and she did stop short of striking her child. I just hope the kid didn’t get punished later for “making” mom get humiliated in public.

Jeez, I hope nobody’s reported me to the cops D:

I say things like “stop whining or I’m gonna cut you” to my niece/little cousins.  I’ve of course never laid a hand on any of them, aside from pretending to beat them up with a pen or something, and they always roll their eyes at me.  I hope nearby strangers can tell I’m not serious.

What Chuck is most worried about is that people might tell parents not to round-house kick their children.

Aww, I’m disappointed that there are no Chuck Norris jokes yet on this thread.

“...a fading winger action star…”

You’re assuming he ever shone in the first place

The Dutch Kraamzorg system (mentioned in #21) is also an influence here, where qualified maternity nurses make home visits and offer tips to expectant and new parents. There’s clearly a vulgar “no one tells me how to raise my childers” critique, and a more subtle one about perceived intrusiveness, but Norris decides to go with the dumb argument.

The UK Tories have said that, if elected to power, they’d consider introducing a similar system. The irony here is that conservatives generally like the idea of telling other people—i.e. the poor and non-whites—how to raise their children, while having the freedom to pull their own children out of “indoctrinating” public school with its commie science lessons.

Crooked Timber has posted on the kraamzorg model a few times, and the discussions there are worth a read: as Ingrid Robeyns points out, the days when you could assume that family members would be around to provide guidance and in-home assistance are long gone.

and when the Patriot act was passed you didn’t hear shit from these kinds of buttholes….

*sigh*

And remember it is Norris’s words, not the bills, that say “government agents” - it could be community health nurses or social workers from religious organizations, even. The states are the ones to decide which programs will receive funds, it doesn’t have to be government created programs.

Thank you for pointing that out!

Someone has to tell the clueless first-time mother not to believe the obnoxious braggers who claim that their child was walking at 6 months and toilet trained at 1 year. And someone ought to explain to the new mothers that “bottle-propping” (leaving infant in carrier with bottle of apple juice stuffed in its mouth) is not a great idea, and that the pacifier is the right tool for keeping the baby occupied.