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Next entry: Great, now they have license to get even nastier Previous entry: I guess we have to call them “Sharia tomatoes” now

Close reading of RedState (sorry)

The anniversary of Roe v Wade is a big deal for both the supporters and detractors of the belief that women are people, as I’m sure you’re aware.  RedState.com decided to commemorate the anniversary by competing for the first prize in the contest of who could write the most tasteless, ignorant, and offensive post ever in support of forced childbirth. I think you’ll agree that what they came up with is a contender in what is a crowded field.  It’s a post that manages to assert that embryos are people, but women are nothing more than “physical locations”.  It suggests that black people have equal claim to be considered persons as multi-celled entities that, unlike black people (or women, or children, or gay people, or whoever else conservatives care less about than the initial evidence that a male orgasm has definitely occurred in the recent past in a bona fide vagina), do not have brains, emotions, rationality, consciousness, relationships, desires or ambitions.  They tried to gross you out in lieu of making a real argument. They compared themselves to abolitionists while also trying to trumpet the Confederates as noble insurrectionists against federal tyranny.

But all these things are par for the course when it comes to wingnuttery.  What really made this post stand out was this passage:

Here at RedState, we too have drawn a line. We will not endorse any candidate who will not reject the judicial usurpation of Roe v. Wade and affirm that the unborn are no less entitled to a right to live simply because of their size or their physical location. Those who wish to write on the front page of RedState must make the same pledge. The reason for this is simple: once before, our nation was forced to repudiate the Supreme Court with mass bloodshed. We remain steadfast in our belief that this will not be necessary again, but only if those committed to justice do not waiver or compromise, and send a clear and unmistakable signal to their elected officials of what must be necessary to earn our support.

Yep, they threatened armed revolt if they don’t get their way on this.  I guess they figured that Gabrielle Giffords was being moved from the hospital to rehab, so it was okay to loosen the tie a little and get back to business.  This was pretty stunning all the same, so I did what I’m accustomed to doing in these situations, which is leaping to Twitter to make fun of these golf pants-wearing nimrods with fantasies of armed revolution in their heads.  This was not, as you can imagine, well-received by said wingnuts.  Josh Trevino, especially, decided to start arguing with me in that tone that’s unique to very stupid men who have bought into the cultural lie that their penises make them smarter than all women.  It was kind of entertaining for awhile to argue with him (particularly asking questions he refused to answer, mostly in terms of who actually started the Civil War by seceding in defense of slavery, and whether or not people who shoot abortion doctors feel strongly on the subject of banning abortion), but I did hit my fool-suffering limit and dropped out after awhile.  There are Brussels sprouts to roast and toilets to clean, you know For all I know, he’s still ranting about how I’m illiterate because I believe the insurrection that started the Civil War was in defense of slavery.

Nonetheless, I’m always up for a challenge, and Josh challenged my ability to read English, so I figured we’d have some fun doing what those of us with degrees in English lit call a “close reading” of the passage above.  For funsies. Also, because I, you know, take domestic terrorism very seriously and don’t think it’s all that cool for RedState to deliberately provoke would-be anti-abortion terrorists. And I like believing that my four years of college gave me a useful skill beyond obsessive pop culture list-making.  We’ll start with “The reason for this”, because that’s where shit gets really interesting.

The reason for this is simple: once before, our nation was forced to repudiate the Supreme Court with mass bloodshed.

It’s clear from both the wording of this and the squawking on Twitter that this passage is supposed to be ambiguous enough to both allow the readers to read whatever they want into it, and create plausible deniability for the editors at RedState.  The Supreme Court decision that’s being referenced is the favorite one of anti-choicers, which is the Dred Scott decision of 1857 that held that slaves or even free people whose ancestors were slaves could not be considered U.S. citizens. As part of the offensive project of comparing black people to literally brainless clumps of cells that could become people but are not yet people, anti-choicers really like to linger on this one.  They also like to compare themselves to abolitionists, even though abolitionists by and large thought black people had more claim to personhood than brainless clumps of cells.

The problem with borrowing the abolitionist legacy is not just that it was a liberal, progressive movement (that gave birth to the anti-racist movement and the feminist movement) is that conservative sympathies usually run not towards the Union, but towards the Confederacy, which gave them the “states rights” arguments they’re so fond of and a flag they often like to use for decorative purposes.  Also, with all this Tea Party talk of insurrection, the Confederacy—-the largest and most successful (in the sense that it took four years to put it down) insurrection in American history—-is a natural precedent to look towards.  And that’s what they’re doing here, drawing on a previous insurrection that was, as they note, national in scope.  Indeed, over half a million people died in this particular insurrection.


Of course, the problem here is that the insurrectionists actually sided with the Dred Scott decision.  RedState hopes to kind of skip over this by saying, in essence, “Slavery just happened to cause this big war, let’s not look at the particulars or anything. Let’s just say revolting is good and slavery is bad, and not dwell on those inconvenient questions of who actually started the fight over slavery and why they started it.”  And this, my friends, is a pretty stupid thing to glide over, because even the biggest Dixie flag-waving Confederate apologist has to admit that the side that seceded was also the side that had slaves.

Thus, we’re left with a passage that ends up strongly implying the South seceded in order to reject slavery, when the opposite is true.  But said so in ambiguous language that allows the reader to walk away with that impression without you saying so directly.  But the attempt to get away with this is unsuccessful, because the “nation” did not violently revolt against the Supreme Court.  The South violently revolted against what they perceived as impending emancipation.

In sum, it’s ridiculous to say the nation went to war to reject the Dred Scott decision, since the people who started the war supported the Dred Scott decision.

We remain steadfast in our belief that this will not be necessary again,

Again, I think the hope may be that there’s enough ambiguity in the word “this” as to create plausible deniability.  But it’s clear from the fact that this sentence immediately follows the other one that “this” is referencing “mass bloodshed” in rejection of a Supreme Court decision.  That the mass bloodshed was actually caused by a defense of said Supreme Court decision has been established, so let’s set that aside for now.  The use of the word “necessary” here establishes the idea that mass bloodshed to reject a Supreme Court decision—-which is clearly Roe v Wade—-is defensible in some circumstances. 

What’s interesting here is that there’s another falsehood in play, and this time it’s not just misdirection through implication, as with the neo-Confederate abolitionist weirdness above. This sentence implies that violence in protest of abortion rights is a theoretical concept, something that could happen in the future, but hasn’t happened yet.  But, in fact, insurrectionist/terrorist violence in protest of abortion has been an ongoing problem, and many lives have been taken, the most recent being in 2009.  This is a good indicator of how we’re more in a fantasy than in a world where people are talking about reality and the things that actually happen in it.  Unfortunately, there are people out there who take seriously this fantasy land where the existence of abortion is some grave moral crisis that needs to be addressed with violence, and they actually do kill people.

but only if

This conjunction is a common one, and it’s used pretty much exclusively to indicate that an exception is going to be made to whatever was said before. So, before they said they didn’t believe violence was necessary, and so they’re going to make an exception now.  And that exception will be an explanation of what will make violence “necessary”.  And by “necessary”, they mean that it will have to happen. 

If this is confusing, let me use another, less vitriolic example of the same kind of phrasing:  “I remain steadfast in my belief that cleaning up cat puke is not necessary, but only if the cats continue to not puke on my floor.”  Granted, my understanding of English has been questioned, but I think most reasonable people would understand that I’m using unnecessarily flowery language to say that there’s no cat puke on the floor, but if cat puke were to be ejected from my cat onto the floor, I’d clean it up.  You could even say I was threatening to keep the floor clean of cat puke.

As one would expect after a “but only if”, there are conditions:

those committed to justice do not waiver or compromise,

I think we can safely say the term “justice” is a reference to the belief that women don’t deserve full human rights.  This kind of deliberate use of terms to mean the opposite of what they usually mean is common in wingnut speak, such as when they use the term “race-baiting” when what they mean is “criticizing race-baiters for race-baiting”.  Also, I think—-though again, my English skills are poor, so back me up on this, folks—-that they meant “waver” instead of “waiver” there.  Though that’s an understandable mistake, though kind of amusing, since the only waivering they demand is to waiver the rights of women.

and send a clear and unmistakable signal to their elected officials of what must be necessary to earn our support.

What they want is a ban on abortion, and, for many/most of them, serious access restrictions to contraception.  Technically speaking, they’re saying as long as anti-choicers continue to be belligerent assholes, they won’t be forced to shoot anyone.  But I think the implication runs much more deeply than that.  After all, the concern is that elected officials won’t earn their support by continuing to chip away at women’s basic human rights.  If elected officials don’t take serious action to ban abortion, or at least run it underground so that more women find themselves turning to back alley butchers like Kermit Gosnell, then what?  They’ve lost their support, and people who are sending a signal tend to waver when that signal isn’t getting any results.  And once the wavering has commenced, by their own measures, it’s time to engage in necessary violence to revolt against abortion rights.

I dunno.  Sounds like a threat to me.  The nauseatingly bad prose just adds insult to injury.  I realize there’s a lot of pseudo-intellectuals banging around RedState, but if I may make one small request?  When you threaten people, guys, could you do with straightforward, direct prose?  Threatening people in flowery language makes me think of horror movie serial killers.  Say what you will about the threats being issued against Frances Piven, but you can’t fault them for their all-American directness.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:06 AM • (102) Comments

Brussels Sprouts.

Comment #1: Svlad Jelly  on  01/24  at  09:33 AM

Isn’t amazing that the people who claim to be pro-life are the most willing to threaten to kill actual human beings if they don’t get their way?  There is something seriously wrong with the functioning of these people’s brains.

Comment #2: bananacat  on  01/24  at  10:34 AM

Not really—to conservatives, anyone not in the tribe isn’t a person.

Comment #3: Punditus Maximus  on  01/24  at  10:41 AM

Is there a site like talk.origins or Snopes that specializes in anti-choice claims?

One of my facebook friends spent the weekend shitting lie after lie on my facebook, such as how PP is the new KKK and trying to wipe out blacks. I found articles debunking them, but they were scattered all over the net. One indexed site would be great.

Failing that, a “pro lifers say the darndest things” site would work in a jiffy. :p

Comment #4: kaje  on  01/24  at  10:44 AM

I just have to say it.  I miss the food blogging posts.

Comment #5: helen w. h.  on  01/24  at  10:54 AM

Josh Trevino ... haven’t heard that name in a while. One thing to understand, when it comes to war of any sort the only thing you’ll see from Joshie is overblown psuedo-classical rhetoric and florid chest-beating threats. He wasn’t called “The Marble Douchebag” for nothing.

As with his heroes Dick Cheney and Karl Rove during the Vietnam War, when it comes to an opportunity to back up words with direct actions, suddenly Brave Sir Josh proclaims that he has other things to do.  As it was during the Iraq War, I’m sure he remains the same cheerleading chickenhawk, counseling others to do that which he’s too craven to do himself.

Comment #6: Gracchus.  on  01/24  at  11:01 AM

But I worked so hard on this one!

Exactly, Punditus.  And all fetuses are in the tribe, at least until birth, for two reasons.  1) Fetuses are a prop used to assure anxious men that it’s men who make babies by shooting their loads, and not women by being pregnant for 9 months.  2) As Ross Douthat demonstrated neatly, the anti-choice belief is that every fetus in an errant woman’s belly belongs to a “worthy” couple that has followed all the rules and god is testing for some reason with infertility.  Of course, once the baby is born, if she is kept by a mother who is not in the tribe, the baby is not in the tribe and loses all consideration as a human being.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/24  at  11:01 AM

Yeah, Trevino is one of the warbloggers whose star has really fallen dramatically.  Now he has a lot of time on his hands to pester people who don’t suffer fools well, though he’s too stupid to see what the implications of that are.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/24  at  11:03 AM

Potential imaginary children are always much cuter than real drooling poop machines.  I think this is part of the reason for high teen pregnancy rates and is certainly exploited by the anti choice crowd as well.

Comment #9: John Rove  on  01/24  at  11:07 AM

The “conservative” mindset described there is the old abusive husband “Don’t make me hit you again, stupid bitch!” transformed into a whole political philosophy.

Normally, we would suggest DTMFA, but the asshole is threatening to take (and take out) hostages unless he gets what he wants.

This cuts straight to the heart of the “conservative” dichotomy: Obsession over the wrongness of Big Government intruding into financial transactions and property ownership (“property” in the broad sense, not just real estate) combined with an obsession over the righteousness of Big Government intruding into the most private and intimate human activities.

It never ceases to amaze me that a bunch of yahoos who honestly believe — the government is going to slap the cheeseburger out of their hands, end their ownership of the largest SUV to rumble the ground, and take away their precious (my precious!) penile-substitute firearms — can then turn around and support the government telling us (with the full weight of government coercion backing it up) — what kinds of adult relationships we’re allowed to have, what kinds of intimacies we’re allowed to engage in, controlling the forms of birth-control we may use, and eliminating any medical procedures necessary to prevent death and injury just as long as they can weigh the “life” of a clump of cells against the lives of actual, unquestionably-living women whose bodies those clumps of cells occupy.

There is one thing that’s probably true in the RedState ranting:  We’re headed toward some sort of showdown.  One group of fascist nutcases with unreasonable obsessions with sperm and hatred of women are pitted against the majority of Americans over the future of this nation.  We are in a fight to determine whether we will be a republic, with laws that protect the lives of all Americans, or a fascist theocracy dedicated to, as the teabaggers so eloquently put it, “shoving their ideas down our throats.”

If this showdown is going to be anything like the Civil War, I don’t want to be anywhere near here when it happens…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  01/24  at  11:20 AM

We’re headed for a showdown, but the majority won’t be against the fascists.

Comment #11: Punditus Maximus  on  01/24  at  11:23 AM

Punditus, I hope you’re wrong…

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  01/24  at  11:30 AM

I sometimes fear the same thing Punditus said.  That we are at apx the same place the US was at in about, oh, 1850 or so.  The fire eaters are getting louder and louder, and more and more people are being slowly convinced that violence is the answer…

Comment #13: Woodrowfan  on  01/24  at  11:39 AM

Potential imaginary children are always much cuter than real drooling poop machines.  I think this is part of the reason for high teen pregnancy rates and is certainly exploited by the anti choice crowd as well.

But even potential imaginary children usually come with morning sickness, back pain, food cravings, and eventually the horrible painful childbirth.  And conservatives work extremely hard to cover up these less pleasant realities of potential children, with Bill O’Reilly even going so far as to claim that women never die from pregnancy or childbirth.  It doesn’t help that pregnancy is rarely portrayed realistically in movies and tv shows, and that there’s tremendous pressure on women to pretend that pregnancy is the best thing evar, or else their children will be permanently scarred if they find out that maybe mommy disliked being pregnant for even a minute.

Comment #14: bananacat  on  01/24  at  11:59 AM

Minor quibble.  You wrote:

It suggests that black people have equal claim to be considered persons as multi-celled entities

I suspect you meant “black men and children” since obviously black women, and their vaginae, are as much of a second class as white women—at least in their warped minds.

Comment #15: James  on  01/24  at  12:00 PM

Which would make them third class in this estimation.

I wouldn’t worry that the country is sliding towards fascism.  Teabaggers are loud, but that doesn’t make them the majority.  The majority voted for Obama; remember that.  And teabaggers aren’t generally fascist.  Some are, but most of them are just befuddled idiots who believe there’s a way to create a social safety net that benefits only them, but not people they don’t like.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/24  at  12:16 PM

Yep, that’s a pretty clear threat of violence alright. Or at least it would have been if it had come from an Arab-American or someone with a similarly suspucious complexion. It would have been a one way trip to indefinite detention without trial. In this case though it comes from a Real American so it’s just an acceptable part of political discourse.

Comment #17: librarian  on  01/24  at  12:19 PM

But catgirl: morning sickness and back pain and cravings and gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia just happen to women. Of course they’re not as important as potential imaginary children whose crap and vomit someone else is going to be cleaning up.

Back when I worked for a magazine, you could always tell the nut letters by the fifteen-dollar words and the convoluted sentence structure. I think that one of the purposes of using such rococo language is not just for plausible deniability but to conceal the poor quality of an argument even from the person writing it.

Comment #18: paul  on  01/24  at  12:27 PM

It’s the same shit that makes them talk about “Second Amendment Solutions”—namely that they are as anti-American as they accuse others of being.  They cannot deal with being in a republic that’s based on majority rule balanced by rights guaranteed to all.

It’s not enough that they are free to live as they please as long as they treat their fellow Americans civilly.

They want a Daddy dictator to tell them what to do and to punish the evil majority that disagrees with them.  And who will be sure to put the n*****s and females back in their proper place.  And they want to be able to call themselves “patriots” all the while.

Comment #19: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/24  at  12:34 PM

“Let’s just say revolting is good and slavery is bad, and not dwell on those inconvenient questions of who actually started the fight over slavery and why they started it.”

Let’s not bicker, and argue, over ‘oo killed ‘oo… </python>

Comment #20: elmo  on  01/24  at  12:41 PM

Well, if you guys decide to do your own armed revolt, the anti-choice wingnuts are converging on the National Mall as I type. They ruined everyone’s commute this morning by jamming their smug asses onto the Metro. It is freezing out so hopefully they will give up and go home.

I guess I’m not worried about some epic showdown because the more the wingnuts show their ass (shooting doctors, violent threats, lying to women), the more reasonable people will finally see them for the sacks of shit that they are. It pisses me off that we still have folks in the media who refer to anti-choicers as “people of good will”. The real people of good will are trying to get access for all women (regardless of income) to birth control, and teaching kids the real deal about sex, and insuring that when a woman does choose abortion it is safe and she leaves with her fertility intact. Murder, insurrection and trying to overturn Griswold v. Connecticut (because you have to realize that’s’ where their headed if they overturn Roe) is not “good will”.

Comment #21: serious bette  on  01/24  at  12:44 PM

The problem with borrowing the abolitionist legacy is not just that it was a liberal, progressive movement (that gave birth to the anti-racist movement and the feminist movement) is that conservative sympathies usually run not towards the Union, but towards the Confederacy, which gave them the “states rights” arguments they’re so fond of and a flag they often like to use for decorative purposes.

I think this has been going on since forever, largely because they like to pretend like the realignment of the Democratic and Republican Parties in the mid-20th Century didn’t actually take place.

They bleat about how it was a Republican president and Republican abolitionists who did the most to bring about the end of slavery, and yet their real sympathies have always lied with the racist Confederate Democrats of that era, including those racist Democrats who helped to form the KKK. That’s one they love throwing out there… “Oh yeah? The Democrats are the ones who started the KKK!!!! Robert Byrd!!! E1leventy111!!! “

It’s true that between the mid-1800s and the mid-1900s the Democratic Party was more overtly racist than the Republican Party, and nobody has ever really denied it. What wingnuts believe is that being openly associated with a group that was once undeniably racist is bad, but actually being an undeniably racist person is not bad. Ergo, someone who identifies as a Democrat in 2011 must be a bad person because Democrats in 1860 were undeniably racist, whereas someone who identifies as a Republican in 2011 could not possibly be a bad person, because duh, Lincoln!

To their Robert Byrd, I raise them a Strom Thurmond, a racist Democrat who decided to become a racist Republican roughly when the GOP decided to become the natural home for racists in the United States.

Comment #22: DTGslu2K  on  01/24  at  12:57 PM

Ugh.  I was just elsewhere on the net and this article came up.  Asshole says that both the fetus and the woman are human beings, so the woman’s life never supersedes the baby’s.

Then he tries to argue about when life begins, never realizing that he’s NEVER really given the woman her human rights, but has disappeared her entirely.

What other human is entitled to force another to provide so much as a pint of blood, much less life-support via her body?

And then the “abortionist” from PA is mentioned, as if he were an OB, as if he weren’t a direct product of anti-choice fuck heads making it almost impossible to get an abortion in PA, as if he wereexactlywhat the feminists want for their fellow women.

I’m ill just from reading the stupid.

Comment #23: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/24  at  01:12 PM

The majority voted for Obama . . . who is just as authoritarian and warmongering as his predecessor.

Not saying.  Just saying.

Comment #24: Punditus Maximus  on  01/24  at  01:28 PM

Serious Bette, I believe the ultimate was when the NY Times called Randall Terry an activist.  He was glad his mother couldn’t get an abortion because then he wouldn’t be alive now. In a very real way, they regard abortion as an attack on their little sperm babies—-the little homunculus they think is in eveyr sperm, like a seed waiting to be planted in an inert pot full of earth.  Their devotion to ignorance is pretty scary.

Comment #25: ginmar  on  01/24  at  01:31 PM

roscoe @22

Strom Thurmond was one of many examples.  All the Dixiecrats/southern Democrats jumped to the Republican party either in 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was passed, or in 1972 when George McGovern was the Democratic candidate for president.  During those 8 years congressional representation in the south went from 100% Democratic to mostly Republican.

Comment #26: Nutella  on  01/24  at  01:41 PM

I hate to say this, but barring an act of God RvW is likely gone no matter what. Right now the fifth vote to uphold it is Anthony Kennedy, who will probably retire from the Supreme Court sometime within the next decade, whenever there’s another Republican president. I admit it’s possible that said president might nominate another David Souter, or that the Democrats might successfully organize against a far right replacement, like they did with Robert Bork, but given our recent track record my hopes aren’t too high. And as an added bonus, whatever other civil liberties we still have left will go down the tubes along with RvW.

Comment #27: Ridnik Chrome  on  01/24  at  01:56 PM

Strom Thurmond was one of many examples.  All the Dixiecrats/southern Democrats jumped to the Republican party either in 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was passed, or in 1972 when George McGovern was the Democratic candidate for president.  During those 8 years congressional representation in the south went from 100% Democratic to mostly Republican.

Nutella, If I could demonstrate to you that this is false, indeed almost the complete opposite is true, how would it change things for you (and others here, since i suspect this is a common belief)?

Comment #28: Manju  on  01/24  at  02:02 PM

They believe the embryo has super-human rights. 

What other human has the right to force another human to provide it with all sustenance/room and board for roughly nine months?  No one.  So the forced-birth set want to give embryos more human rights than any human who has been born.

Comment #29: blondie  on  01/24  at  02:04 PM

But even potential imaginary children usually come with morning sickness, back pain, food cravings, and eventually the horrible painful childbirth.

Yes, catgirl, but not for people. (And by “people”, of course, I mean “men.” Because this whole debacle that some people like to call a debate shows that women aren’t really people, are they?)

Comment #30: katydid  on  01/24  at  02:13 PM

I think that one of the purposes of using such rococo language is not just for plausible deniability but to conceal the poor quality of an argument even from the person writing it.

Good point. The Twilight novels are a slightly off-topic but clear example of this phenomenon: they’re such hopelessly incompetent writing they’re offensive to thinking readers everywhere, but because Meyers used her thesaurus liberally not only can idiot readers pretend they’re good books, but Meyers really seems to be able to delude herself that she’s in the same class of writers as Jane Austen and William Shakespeare.

Memorizing a lot of multisyllable words or mustering up the ability to talk all flowery are easy ways for stupid people to feel smart since they have no idea what being smart is actually like.

Comment #31: kristin  on  01/24  at  02:16 PM

Josh “Dolchstoss” Trevino—owner of the world’s only semen-stained thesaurus—has been playing this rhetorical game for years.  Whether it was endorsing concentration camps in Iraq a la the Boer war (in his pseudo-civil “I’m not saying we should actually slaughter Iraqis but it’s not a bad idea” language style) or showing up at Steve Gilliard’s blog to imply that the Left would “pay” for its opposition to the Iraq War (and not just politically if you know what he means and he knows you do), thinly-veiled threats are a Trevino Trademark. 

So which Trademark is next?  Will it be the long-winded rhetorical misdirection, the ludicrous historical analogy or the baseless claim to the moral high ground?

Comment #32: Sour Kraut  on  01/24  at  02:19 PM

serious bette: Thanks for saying that. Last week in my town there were a bunch of anti-choice types marching in the street, waving their signs, and all I could think when I saw their “human life is precious” signs was “So then why do you want my spouse to be dead and my kids never to have been born?”

Comment #33: paul  on  01/24  at  02:19 PM

Ah yes, Josh Trevino. He of the “my pale skin is my passport” assholery.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/21/joshua-trevio-gop-consult_n_293938.html

Comment #34: carswell  on  01/24  at  02:30 PM

...at the risk of feeding what reads like a troll…

Okay, Manju, help us ignorant leftists understand what happened when the Democratic and Republican parties basically switched places between 196x and 198x?

Are you one of these “Southern Strategy” deniers?  Are you unaware that Lyndon Johnson correctly predicted (in fact probably understated) what would happen when he signed Civil Rights legislation?

And, since it’s a question that immediately come to my mind, what planet have you lived on for the last 50-years?...

Comment #35: MikeEss  on  01/24  at  02:34 PM

I’m terrified it’s just a matter of time RvW is gone as well. And, like punditus, I’m also concerned (to put it mildly) we’ve reached a point where the right wing feels that one day they can just pick up their guns and hold the government/people literally hostage to their ideology. They’re too selfish and stupid to see or care about any discrepancy between their authoritarian wishes and “freedom.”

I had today off and was going to jump on the metro here in DC to visit some bookstores, but serious bette’s comment reminded me of yet another descent of women-hating protesters upon the city. Which reminded me of all the times the right-wing has converged upon us, with the strange fur-coat clad, dismissive wealthy people waltzing about during Bush’s inaugurations, and all the dreadful, vile-spewing teabaggers with their awful shirts and signs… Each time these groups come they truly are more extremist, more ignorant, and spouting more violent rhetoric than the time before. I’m just going to grab my copy of Marilyn French’s “The War Against Women” and stay inside.

Comment #36: thefeistysweetheart  on  01/24  at  02:35 PM

They believe the embryo has super-human rights.

What other human has the right to force another human to provide it with all sustenance/room and board for roughly nine months?  No one.  So the forced-birth set want to give embryos more human rights than any human who has been born.

This.  Especially since the forced birth crowd are overwhelmingly conservative and the first to decry the evils of welfare and other other programs that take “their” money and support “deadbeats.”  Deadbeats like, you know, children.

Comment #37: adobedragon  on  01/24  at  02:43 PM

To their Robert Byrd, I raise them a Strom Thurmond, a racist Democrat who decided to become a racist Republican roughly when the GOP decided to become the natural home for racists in the United States.

By this metric, and it is an important one, you’ve lost… because Strom is an outlier while Byrd represents the zeitgeist. Thurmond is the only democrat who filibustered the 64act (and they were almost all democrats) who switched parties. I mean, how hard is it to look up the famous segregationists and figure out where they ended up? I can supply you some names just off the top off my head: Stennis, Eastland, Byrd, Gore,  Smathers, Sparkman, Russell, Talmadge, etc. Go ahead and do it. Don’t take my word for it.

If you do this exercise not only will you find that I am right (and by the way, the same applies for the House, where only 2 or 3 reps who voted against eh 64cra switched to the republican party) but you will also find that these men continued to climb the democratic ladder for the rest of their careers. Byrd is the one always pointed out, you are correct, because he was a Klansman and he became the senate majority leader, but not because he was the only one.  Importantly, he became majority leader (and before that majority whip) well before he renounced segregation (which was sometime in the 1990’s). Indeed, he became whip without even having seniority, and at the urging of liberal icon Ted Kennedy.

This means northern dems put an unrepentant segregationist in the line of succession. That’s a racist act. That’s a southern strategy too. And that’s how dems retained control of the south on the congressional level all the way up till 1994 (yes, it’s true).

By virtue of the role the senate filibuster played in maintaining the Jim Crow regime, these men represented the most powerful segregationists in the land. As anti-racists, I’m sure you all can appreciate the focus on power. But what this tells us about the modern democratic party and about liberal democrats is not an easy pill to swallow. That so many liberals continue to believe in demonstratively false narratives like the dixiecrats becoming republican tells us the teabaggers and texas school board is not alone in denying America’s racist past and present. Since I genuinely believe your anti-racism and feminism will trump your attachment to the democratic party and to liberalism (as a movement, not ideology)  I think this is a good place to introduce these facts into the conversation. Liberals need to own this failure.

Comment #38: Manju  on  01/24  at  02:44 PM

I think this goes to show that conservatives will say anything regardless of making sense ideologically to try to make a point.  The anti-choicers would probably be more likely to support the Dred Scott decision than oppose.

What this also says is that Redstate will abandon every pro-choice Republican left including Giuliani.

Comment #39: Albert Cirrus  on  01/24  at  02:59 PM

elmo: I think you would write that as
“Let’s not bicker and argue over ‘ho killed ‘ho…

serious bette: I think you meant ensuring, but insuring is key as well, so it still works.

Why yes, I am proofreading at work today.  How could you tell?

Comment #40: helen w. h.  on  01/24  at  03:06 PM

Albert: for women, banning abortion pretty much is the equivalent of the Dred Scott decision…

Comment #41: paul  on  01/24  at  03:29 PM

Speaking of racist douchebag politicians…

George “Macaca Moment” Allen just announced today that he wants his old job back and he’ll be running again for the U.S. Senate seat that he lost in 2006 against the guy who beat him, Sen. Jim Webb.

I’m not a big fan of Jim Webb, who has been one of the more conservative Democrats in the Senate (he is a former Reagan appointee), but in a contest between Webb and Allen, there is only one reasonable choice. A racist fucknugget like George Allen has absolutely no business being a member of the most exclusive legislative body in the nation again.

Comment #42: DTGslu2K  on  01/24  at  03:34 PM

Are you unaware that Lyndon Johnson correctly predicted (in fact probably understated) what would happen when he signed Civil Rights legislation?

LBJ was incorrect. He said “we’ve lost the south for a generation.” This is false. Dems lost the south IN a generation. Not the same thing. In fact they kept the south on the state, local, and congressional level all the way up till 1994. How did they do this. Just a hint: LBJ, a former segregationist himself, actually used Goldwater’s pro-civil rights history (before 64) against him in the south during the 64 campaign. The segregationists, almost to a man, as I demonstrated earlier, stayed loyal to the party.

On the presidential level, dems lost to Goldwater in 64, and Goldwater ran a racist campaign (I’m libertarian-leaning and I’ll own that). There was 3rd party run in 68 and Nixon took the south in 72. But Carter took it back in 76, and make no doubt about it, he ran a racist campaign too (I’ll supply details and references from non-righty sources upon request). After that there was a re-alignment presidentially with Clinton (no stranger to the southern strategy himself) plucking off a few states. So those are the facts. LBJs narrative is wrong.

But the real creepiness of Dems using the LBJ quote favorably is that it’s almost as if they don’t know that the south was a virtual one-party state enforced by lynching, that served the interests of the more progressive party. This is what Larry Bartels calls “a peculiar nostalgia for the racially coercive Democratic monopoly of the Jim Crow era.” All LBJ lost was a monopoly built on political violence. That’s a good thing, no? Of course the south trended republican since 64 (actually earlier, republicans were picking off some of the less racist states under Ike), it only had one direction to go. Which is not to say there was no republican southern strategy.

Bartels (a lefty) and others have done some great research on the south, and almost all of it counters prevalent liberal beliefs of what happened,  like working class voters have been convinced to vote against their economic interests. Even Paul Krugman has conceded the fact. I’ll supply some details later but suffice to say for now, this:

And, since it’s a question that immediately come to my mind, what planet have you lived on for the last 50-years?…

at the risk of feeding what reads like a troll…

...is not helpful. is not helpful.  I’m a RWinger, a republican, but I vote democratic (sorry fellow RWingers who are reading, no, taxes don’t pay themselves) will almost certainly vote for Obama again in 14, and am socially liberal (pro choice too).  That you would think my claims were so outlandish that I must be a troll or live on another planet demonstrates the level of racist denialism in lefty circles. Haley Barbour is not alone. I assure you, and its easily checkable, the facts I’ve put forward are correct.

Comment #43: Manju  on  01/24  at  03:46 PM

Especially since the forced birth crowd are overwhelmingly conservative and the first to decry the evils of welfare and other other programs that take “their” money and support “deadbeats.” Deadbeats like, you know, children.
Comment #37: adobedragon on 01/24 at 01:43 PM

Deadbeat fetus!  Evict it!

Comment #44: oldfeminist  on  01/24  at  03:52 PM

Of course, once the baby is born, if she is kept by a mother who is not in the tribe, the baby is not in the tribe and loses all consideration as a human being.

You will notice that in all the wingnut depictions of fetuses (fetii?) as cartoons without dealing with the mother, the skin colour is always… white.

Just saying…

Comment #45: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/24  at  03:59 PM

Manju, you apparently can’t tell the difference between a “Democrat” and a “liberal”, a “Republican” and a “Conservative”.

Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, but was a progressive in his day.  The Republican Party at that time was not a party for “Conservatives” — that was the Democratic Party back then.

After the Civil War, and for decades afterward, Blacks in America were solidly Republican — it was the liberal/progressive Republican Party that welcomed them, while the conservative Democratic Party (especially in the South) rejected them.

By mid-20th Century, there had been enough Democrats like FDR and Truman to weaken the hold the Republicans had on the Black vote.  There were also groups like the John Birch Society and people like William F. Buckley who werehostile to the idea that Blacks deserved Civil Rights the same as anyone else.  These things started to drive African Americans out of the Republican Party and into the Democratic Party.  By the time Dr. Martin Luther King was active, and Civil Rights Marches were occurring, the conservative Democrats in the South were fighting a losing battle to hang on to their legacy under the umbrella of the Democratic Party.  Events like the rise of the Dixiecrats demonstrate that conservative Democrats were itching to get out.

Meanwhile, the Republican Party welcomed them with open arms.  That was the Southern Strategy…

Did the party switch happen overnight?  No, but seldom does a tectonic shift of that magnitude occur quickly.  The fact remains, however, that by the ‘80s, the two major American parties had basically switched places, with the (still) conservative South becoming solidly Republican while most people who were not white, racist, Jim-Crow-loving rednecks became Democrats or moderate Republicans (a group that has been targeted for elimination by the staunch “conservatives” in the Republican Party for the last couple decades).

There is no doubt at all that most, if not all, of the current loudest conservative Republican voices would have been conservative Democrats before 1960.  Hell, by today’s standards, Richard Nixon and Dwight Eisenhower would be Democrats, or at least not accepted by the current Republican Party.  OTOH, Barry “Bomb Them Back to the Stoneage” Goldwater would still be a Republican, although a “center-right moderate” by today’s twisted standards.

If you don’t understand all of this, then I bet you think “liberals” and “fascists” are exactly the same, and you think Jonah Goldberg is the greatest historian of our times…and there’s no hope for you…

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  01/24  at  04:03 PM

LBJ, a former segregationist himself, actually used Goldwater’s pro-civil rights history (before 64) against him in the south during the 64 campaign. The segregationists, almost to a man, as I demonstrated earlier, stayed loyal to the party.

No, they didn’t. Goldwater carried Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina in 1964. And George Wallace, running as an independent, carried those same states, minus South Carolina, plus Arkansas, in 1968.

Comment #47: Ridnik Chrome  on  01/24  at  04:17 PM

“On the presidential level, dems lost to Goldwater in 64, and Goldwater ran a racist campaign (I’m libertarian-leaning and I’ll own that).”

Mistake?  Goldwater lost to Johnson in ‘64.  And I have no doubt both of them ran racist campaigns in the South.  That’s what was done.  That’s what’s still done to this very day.  And it’s still vile and immoral.

“LBJ was incorrect. He said “we’ve lost the south for a generation.”” 

And he was incorrect, but because he underestimated how long the Democratic Party lost the South.  It left and is not coming back any time soon.  And by my count that would be more than two generations later.

“All LBJ lost was a monopoly built on political violence. That’s a good thing, no?”

Yes, it is a good thing.  Good riddance to bad people…

“Of course the south trended republican since 64 (actually earlier, republicans were picking off some of the less racist states under Ike), it only had one direction to go.”

...and most of those bad people and/or their philosophical offspring entered the Republican Party some time after the mid-Sixties…

“Which is not to say there was no republican southern strategy.”

I would hope you wouldn’t pretend there was no Southern Strategy, given how much has been written about it by the principals who invented it, like Nixon and Kevin Phillips.

”...is not helpful. is not helpful.”

...that’s a matter of opinion…

“I’m a RWinger, a republican, but I vote democratic (sorry fellow RWingers who are reading, no, taxes don’t pay themselves) will almost certainly vote for Obama again in 14, and am socially liberal (pro choice too).”

You’re a lot like me some respects.  I was born-n-raised Republican in a evangelistic Christian family of staunch Republicans.  The difference is that I recognize that the Republican Party does not, and never will, have a place for me in it ever again.  (I become more and more socialist as I get older, sickened by the results of Republican policies I can see all around me.  I’ll probably be a Marxist by the time I die…)

If you voted for Obama, wake up and smell the coffee.  The Republicans will tar-and-feather you for your apostasy.  You won’t be able to hide it forever…

Comment #48: MikeEss  on  01/24  at  04:26 PM

They really don’t treat fetuses like super-people.  If they did, they’d be in favor of free healthcare for pregnant women, more protection for pregnant women in domestic abuse situations, increasing funding for research on how to stop miscarriages, and so forth.  I’ve never seen somebody “pro-life” advocate for any of those things.

In the decades since Roe vs. Wade, the infant mortality rate in this country has gone down the toilet compared to other western countries.  We are now 29th in the world in that category.  I have yet to meet a “pro-life” person that seems at all bothered by this.

The personhood of the unborn isn’t anywhere close to being a prime concern.  It’s a real mistake to believe that lie.

Comment #49: Angry Geometer  on  01/24  at  04:30 PM

“back alley butchers like Kermit Gosnell”

Huh?

My understanding is he ran a licensed clinic. No need to disown him now.

Comment #50: YoNoSoyMarinero  on  01/24  at  04:41 PM

Ridnik Chrome said,

barring an act of God RvW is likely gone no matter what

Actually, Roe has been superseded by Casey and Carhart.

This pdf article is a good discussion of the whole legal shebang.

Comment #51: teac  on  01/24  at  04:59 PM

Just a hint: LBJ, a former segregationist himself, actually used Goldwater’s pro-civil rights history (before 64) against him in the south during the 64 campaign.

That is beyond ridiculous.

I’m not questioning whether or not LBJ was once a segregationist himself. There aren’t very many white men who were born and raised in Texas and grew up in the 1910s and 1920s who weren’t segregationists at some point in their lives. LBJ may very well have been exactly what you claim that he was. Growing up in Texas early in the 20th Century doesn’t excuse it, but it does provide a lot of necessary context.

However, the idea that LBJ used Barry Goldwater’s alleged pro-civil rights history against him in the very same year in which LBJ himself signed into law the most sweeping civil rights legislation since Reconstruction is absurd.

“Hey, don’t vote for that Goldwater fellow, because he may have once supported the idea of civil rights for black people. Vote for me, because I used to be a segregationist, too! Also, too, just ignore that silly little piece of paper that I signed on July 2, 1964 giving the civil rights movement one of their biggest victories in decades.”

I mean, seriously?

I don’t have the data in front of me about how southern segregationists voted in 1964, but I have never seen one bit of evidence that LBJ actually campaigned as being more sympathetic to southern racists than Goldwater. He may have held that demographic in the 1964 election, but that itself is not evidence that he directly pandered to their racism to win their votes.

Comment #52: DTGslu2K  on  01/24  at  05:00 PM

That you would think my claims were so outlandish that I must be a troll or live on another planet demonstrates the level of racist denialism in lefty circles. Haley Barbour is not alone. I assure you, and its easily checkable, the facts I’ve put forward are correct.
Comment #43: Manju on 01/24 at 02:46 PM

A lot of the Democratic party and the Left is still racist, I will agree.  And sexist. 

There’s been a lot written about that—by leftists.  Not all leftists are blind to the failings of the party that supposedly represents them.  Otherwise, no one would chuckle about the circular “liberal firing squads.”

The idea that they are somehow more racist than the right, however, is a misnomer put out by the GOP.  The Dems have done more to help women and minorities than the GOP, largely because they actually acknowledge them and don’t try to pretend there’s a level playing field and no linkage between being a woman or a minority and being poor and without privilege.

Comment #53: oldfeminist  on  01/24  at  05:11 PM

Gosnell was not an OB, had no business performing surgeries for which he was not qualified, and somehow managed to keep himself under the radar without being inspected for many years. There’s no need to “disown” him, he was never a qualified professional in the field to begin with. He was the “go-to” guy for terrified and poor women who saw no other option… ie, back-alley. If legitimate reproductive care for women was affordable, legal, and readily available guys like that hack would never make it.

Comment #54: TheRealistMom  on  01/24  at  05:11 PM

Why is always the trolls who are so frickin’ longwinded?

Comment #55: ginmar  on  01/24  at  05:29 PM

Events like the rise of the Dixiecrats demonstrate that conservative Democrats were itching to get out. Meanwhile, the Republican Party welcomed them with open arms.  That was the Southern Strategy…

I just demonstrated to you that the dixiecrats, ie stennis, byrd, eatland, gore, etc, almost to a man stayed democratic (or briefly went to a 3rd party). But yet you maintain your meme. Please explain.

Comment #56: Manju  on  01/24  at  05:33 PM

“Gosnell was not an OB, had no business performing surgeries for which he was not qualified, and somehow managed to keep himself under the radar without being inspected for many years. There’s no need to “disown” him, he was never a qualified professional in the field to begin with. He was the “go-to” guy for terrified and poor women who saw no other option… ie, back-alley. If legitimate reproductive care for women was affordable, legal, and readily available guys like that hack would never make it.”

Well, this is actually not completely accurate.  A doctor who is licensed to practice in either family medicine or internal medicine is generally well within bounds for offering OB/GYN services to female patients.  Board certification is not the same thing as licensure, it simply indicates that a doctor has additional expertise in a given area, but is not required in order to be licensed to practice medicine.  In more suburban and rural areas it is relatively common for family physicians and internists to engage in OB/GYN care. 

As far as his potentially practicing surgery is concerned, it really depends on how one defines it.  The anti-choice movement has recently been trying to have all abortion services defined as surgery so that doctors who perform them would then have their clinics fall under the more onerous legal requirements for surgery centers on the books in every state.  This would have the practical effect of putting a lot of clinics out of business because of the extensive requirements that come along with building fully loaded surgical suites and keeping them properly equipped and staffed.

Look, I agree that Gosnell was a horrible person who was clearly preying on women who felt they had no other option but to come to him for abortion services.  But I don’t agree that the pro-choice side needs to cede any ground on further limiting any doctor’s ability provide reproductive services to female patients through further legal regulation as a result of Dr. Gosnell’s admittedly heinous conduct.

Comment #57: Lolagirl  on  01/24  at  05:35 PM

That post at Redstate and the ensuing comments are really pretty dismaying.  I think it only further serves to underscore the growing gap between the pro-choice and anti-choice schools of thought.  Over and over again the posters underscore their boundless attachment to embryos and fetuses while consistently ignoring and understating the impact their position would have on the women carrying a pregnancy.  I stopped reading when I got to one poster who was certain that these new -fangled fancy ultrasounds would bring us Godless pro-choicers around to seeing how terrible abortion really is.  Because, you know, once we see that it’s really a baybee in the women’s belly instead of a tictac or something we’ll instantly fall in love and agree that abortion is always terribly murderous.

There was also some interesting back and forth about armed insurrection to overturn our government, and thankfully at least the proponents of that position were shouted down by other commenters.  But it all still makes me really worry about how strident the republican conservatives are becoming, because it only seems to be getting worse.  I certainly hope we don’t slide into Christian theocracy, but that increasingly seems to be the aim of the republicans these days.

Comment #58: Lolagirl  on  01/24  at  05:50 PM

#50:

Gosnell must be disowned just as surely as Deepak Chopra or William Jefferson. Otherwise we have no more credibility than the Republicans who claim Tom Delay was railroaded.

(By the way, I still think Delay should serve out his sentence in the CNMI jail on Saipan…)

Manju:

I can’t say much for any of the other Dixiecrats you mention, but Byrd repudiated his racism and hadn’t been a Dixiecrat in any meaningful sentence for decades when he died. At the very least make sure your arguments make sense before you put them forth.

Comment #59: BrianX  on  01/24  at  06:01 PM

“I just demonstrated to you that the dixiecrats, ie stennis, byrd, eatland, gore, etc, almost to a man stayed democratic (or briefly went to a 3rd party). But yet you maintain your meme. Please explain.”

Dixiecrat: “The States’ Rights Democratic Party (commonly known as the Dixiecrats) was a shortlived segregationist, socially conservative political party in the United States. It originated as a breakaway faction of the Democratic Party in 1948, determined to protect what they portrayed as the Southern way of life beset by an oppressive federal government, and supporters assumed control of the state Democratic parties in part or in full in several Southern states. The States’ Rights Democratic Party opposed racial integration and wanted to retain Jim Crow laws and white supremacy. Members of the States’ Rights Democratic Party were often called Dixiecrats. (The term Dixiecrat is a portmanteau of Dixie, referring to the Southern United States, and Democrat, referring to the Democratic Party.)
By 1950, nearly all the Dixiecrats had returned to the Democratic Party. The Dixiecrats had little short-run impact on politics. However, they did have a long-term impact. The Dixiecrats began the weakening of the Democratic Party’s total control of presidential elections in the Deep South. The 1948 campaign laid the foundation, at first in presidential voting only, for the creation of a two-party region. Finally, the Dixiecrats, especially Strom Thurmond (Senator from 1954 to 2003) initiated a national political dialog on the dangers of an expansive federal government that threatened “local control.” This theme was picked up by southern Republicans, who became a major element in the national GOP by the 1990s.”

Since the Dixicrats were over after one electoral cycle, sure, those so inclined returned back to the Democratic fold.  Where else would they go (in a nation where third-parties basically have no chance in national elections)?

But the seed was sown.  The Democratic Party barely contained its disparate parts (see jokes about the Democrats being “no organized party”), and it finally broke apart after Civil Rights legislation was passed.  It just didn’t do it all at one time.

If you don’t believe me, listen to Lee Atwater and Kevin Phillips.  They both admitted the existence of the Southern Strategy, and made strong appeals to racists to achieve electoral success for Republicans.  Atwater died of a brain tumor (karmic retribution?) and Phillips went on to renounce what he did and his involvement in the current Republican Party.

But hey, I’m sure they were really Democratic plants meant to unfairly discredit The Party of Lincoln (just like everyone else who has ever had something bad to say about the Republican Party), so feel free to ignore their insider knowledge and the history of their actions…

Comment #60: MikeEss  on  01/24  at  06:16 PM

That is beyond ridiculous.

roscoe: If you think it absurd, you haven’t read civil rights history, which is full of stories like that.  May I refer you to Robert Caro’s “the Years of Lyndon Johnson”?  That’s a good place to start and it’s a compelling read. It has long been known that LBJ was a segregationist. That’s why JFK put him on the ticket. When he was thought to have a scandal, JFK then offered the slot to George Smathers, reportedly his best friend in the senate. Like JFK he was also a liberal. But he was also a segregationist from Florida.

Contrary to your “man of his place and time” argument you didn’t have to be a segregationist in TX. Many politicians weren’t. It was thought (before Caro) that LBJ was a light-segregationist because he supported Truman (who was the only dem b/f LBJ to not run with a segregationist. But Caro discovered a speech indicating LBJ played both sides of the fence with Truman (as he did with Goldwater). LBJ supported Truman but attacked Truman’s civil rights policies in no uncertain terms: he compared them to the creation of “a police state in the guise of liberty.” Caro found a speech where he said this in a White House file stamped:  “DO NOT RELEASE THIS SPEECH-speech—not even to staff…this is not EVER TO BE RELEASED.”

To answer your assertion that this is not possible. Back then things were more local. LBJ ran as liberal on civil rights in the north, but kept his segregationist street cred in the south, running ads there that attacked Goldwater’s pre-64 pro civil rights stands. It didn’t work, Goldwater won the south. But this set the stage for the dems behavior toward their racist base.  Ergo, Byrd gets put into the line of succession as an unrepentant segregationist.

Comment #61: Manju  on  01/24  at  06:16 PM

So, we have a wingnut trying to argue that the guy who signed the Civil Rights Act into law was a segregationist?

Man, there is no shame in them.  None.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/24  at  06:28 PM

#55:

To answer your question—no job, no friends, and no family who can stand to listen to hear them flapping their gums for another second. If they had anything better to do, they would do it.

Have you noticed the dedication of the folks who hang out outside of abortion clinics trying to shame women? Same story. Because you never see pro-choice people outside of those fake clinics anti-choicers set-up to lie to/scare pregnant women into not having an abortion. That’s because pro-choice people have lives, jobs, families and friends.

Comment #63: serious bette  on  01/24  at  06:42 PM

Since the Dixicrats were over after one electoral cycle, sure, those so inclined returned back to the Democratic fold.

You lost me. I took issue witI said this:

Strom Thurmond was one of many examples. All the Dixiecrats/southern Democrats jumped to the Republican party either in 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was passed, or in 1972 when George McGovern was the Democratic candidate for president.  During those 8 years congressional representation in the south went from 100% Democratic to mostly Republican.

I said this was demonstrably false and you were up in arms, calling me a troll. Now you’ve made a complete 180. Suddenly you’re all; “Where else would they go” as if you knew the whole time.

Only now you’re suddenly using the more technical definition of dixiecrat, referring to the ‘48 states rights party exclusively…as opposed to the colloquial definition, which is segregationist -democratic politicians from the south.  This allows you to pretend that we’re only talking about “one election cycle.” So their returning to the fold appears less sinister and you can whitewash your own party’s history.

The problem is, I made a much more dramatic claim earlier. One that went beyond one election cycle. I said virtually all the dixiecrats, broadly speaking to include the 48 party, the men who filibustered the 68 act, the members of the house who voted against it, and even governors who were known segregationists, stayed within your party (outside of the brief 3rd party runs).  A few switched, most notably Strom, but the vast majority stayed.

i used the men who filibustered the 68 act as a metric, because its an easy one for anyone to check. I named names to make it even easer for you, since not everyone has read serious civil rights history. You took issue with this but now you are dodging the question, trying to pass it off as a different question, and claiming that you actually agreed the whole time (to the new question) when you are in fact on record as calling me a troll.

Comment #64: Manju  on  01/24  at  06:48 PM

#64: look at the comment preceding yours. They’re used to all that you say, and yet they still expect to have other people wait on them. And by people I mean ‘women’, probably somebody who looks like a supermodel, yet has been saving themselves for some unwashed, hostile loser like them. 

Pro-choicers not have lives, they have kids, kids’ friends, and live lives that are devoted not to attacking people or taking away their rights but to defending people and preserving rights. Frankly, those anti-choice clinics could use some pickets. 

The demographics of the anti-choicers need to get more attention, too.  Except for Shelly Shannon, all the killers have been male. Most of the higher ups in the movement are men.  Most trolls are men, and they spend all their time obsessing.

Comment #65: ginmar  on  01/24  at  06:49 PM

They really don’t treat fetuses like super-people.  If they did, they’d be in favor of free healthcare for pregnant women, more protection for pregnant women in domestic abuse situations, increasing funding for research on how to stop miscarriages, and so forth.  I’ve never seen somebody “pro-life” advocate for any of those things.

Of course NOT!  Those are things that would help the filthy sluts!  Everyone knows that if the sluts just don’t drink and smoke the fetus will be FINE.  Bill O’Reilly said no pregnancy ever threatens the health of the mother.  It’s only sluts who threaten the lives of the precious fetii.

Comment #66: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/24  at  06:50 PM

So, we have a wingnut trying to argue that the guy who signed the Civil Rights Act into law was a segregationist?

Man, there is no shame in them.  None

Wow. I am genuinely stunned that a prominent lefty-blogger did not know this. You can’t be an anti-racist and not know this fact.

Are you aware that Jefferson owned slaves?

Comment #67: Manju  on  01/24  at  06:54 PM

Put it this way, Manju: Once you’re on record as the guy who signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act into law, your career as a segregationist is pretty much over.

Comment #68: Ridnik Chrome  on  01/24  at  07:09 PM

I love it when the conservative trolls ask a patronizing question, like they’ve just discovered a big huge secret. It’s like they never moved beyond “The Babysitters’ Club” (except whatever is the political equivalent).  I bet Manju feels just like Nancy Drew right now. He’s only two hundred years too late with the gossip about Thomas Jefferson. What’s next——could it be that Jefferson had an affair with a slave?!

Comment #69: ginmar  on  01/24  at  07:16 PM

Are you aware that Jefferson owned slaves?

Zounds, man!  This battle of wits is over!  (rolls eyes)

Comment #70: Blue Jean  on  01/24  at  07:40 PM

Put it this way, Manju: Once you’re on record as the guy who signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act into law, your career as a segregationist is pretty much over

If your career is over, you had a career no? You don’t get to start history at 64. Thats ahistoric.

Look, I get my civil rights history from serious sources, not simpletons like david niewert. I understand there’s a creed in anti-racist circles which is to listen to those who have experienced racism. Well, I listen to Venterns of the civil rights movement on this issue. Here’s what they have to say about LBJ (via thier website, crmvet.org):

In 1957, Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Baines Johnson (LBJ) is preparing his run for the Presidency in 1960. In his 20 years in office, Johnson has never voted for a civil rights bill or amendment. But with the fledgling Freedom Movement beginning to stir, he knows that he cannot win the Democratic nomination if he is seen in the North and West as opposing civil rights for Blacks. Yet to win the nomination he also needs the support of the “solid South” — the segregationists.

In March of 1957, Eisenhower’s Attorney General proposes a civil rights bill that strengthens the Federal government’s ability to protect civil rights, permits moving civil rights cases from state to Federal court, authorizes the Justice Department to file lawsuits to protect civil rights, prevents interference with the right to vote, and applies Federal election law to primaries and special elections. The draft bill has broad bipartisan support from Republicans and Northern & Western Democrats.

Using his power as “Master of the Senate,” LBJ maneuvers to gut the bill of all significant provisions. He then convinces the Southern bloc that it is better to allow a sham bill to pass without a filibuster rather than risk the outside chance that growing public support for civil rights might be strong enough to break the filibuster and pass a real bill that might actually provide some protection for Blacks. This strategy allows him to pose as a civil rights supporter in the North and West as he seeks the 1960 nomination, while still retaining the support of the Southern segregationists.

At the end of August, the Civil Rights Act 1957 is passed by Congress and signed into law. Civil rights supporters call it “a crumb” and “worse than nothing.” Though touted by Johnson as a “voting rights bill,” the reality is that fewer Blacks vote in the 1960 election than had voted in 1956.

Seven years later, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is passed. It contains many of the provisions gutted out of the 1957 Act. But during the seven years between 1957 and 1964, many are killed for demanding the right to vote, hundreds are beaten, thousands jailed, and tens of thousands suffer economic retaliation in the struggle for basic human dignity. The Federal government says it does not have the legal authority to stop civil rights abuses. Movement lawyers dispute their claim that they lack legal means to protect American citizens — and most Movement veterans believe that the cause of Federal inaction is political rather than lack of adequate laws — but there is no doubt that had the Civil Rights Act of 1957 been passed in its original form, much of the loss and suffering endured by those who fought for freedom might have been prevented.

Comment #71: Manju  on  01/24  at  07:48 PM

Ridnik #69:

What I find strange is that even though this is blatantly and trivially obvious, people like Manju still can’t seem to understand it. It’s like the “classical liberal” meme—never mind that a) liberalism, by its nature, tends to change depending on what the issues of the day are, b) sometimes what seemed like a good idea 200 years ago doesn’t pan out, or c) “liberal” is a somewhat overloaded term in political speech—somehow a hateful, greedy troglodyte calling itself a “classical liberal” is supposed to be some kind of trump card.

Comment #72: BrianX  on  01/24  at  07:53 PM

Manju:

Funny, I don’t see an unambiguous segregationist there. I see someone playing 11-dimensional chess to make sure something—anything—gets passed, then coming back a few years later to clean up the mess. You know—get half a loaf now because that’s all you can get, then get the rest later. Sort of like, I dunno, health care reform.

Comment #73: BrianX  on  01/24  at  08:06 PM

BrianX

i responded to Ridnik by referencing veterans of the civil rights movement on the issue of LBJ. Because of LBJ, “many are killed for demanding the right to vote, hundreds are beaten, thousands jailed, and tens of thousands suffer economic retaliation in the struggle for basic human dignity.”

And then you resort to ideology. Libertarians are often made fun of for dong this, ie existing in a philosophical la la land. They take no responsibility for anything because their system never existed, not unlike communists who claim communism never failed because it was never tried.

When it comes to civil rights, democrats are like libertarians.

That Adlai Stevenson’s VP candidate was a democrat is a fact. That he was conservative is an opinion. Since ideology is fluid, partisan’s in denial mode like to default on it. For example, teabaggers now go around telling us that GWBush was not a real conservative, since real conservatives don’t expand Medicare and they are all about being fiscally responsible etc.

But what good does it do for them to tell us that now, when during crunch-time they sided with Bush. Ideologically speaking, conservatism may be about balancing the budget but historically conservatives have done the opposite. Likewise, telling me the people liberals sided with are now actually conservative, doesn’t help us. The use of ideology is a ruse. What I’m interested in is the real historical alignment, not some easily fudgable ideological one.

History trumps ideology.

Comment #74: Manju  on  01/24  at  08:24 PM

Hey, y’all, free to email me if this historical revisionist starts really getting out of control and I’m not around.  It’s usually a matter of time before the racism starts to show with these guys, and don’t feel like you have to put up with it.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/24  at  08:32 PM

And then you resort to ideology.

Um… that’s what this conversation is about. Sorry, you lose.

Comment #76: BrianX  on  01/24  at  08:47 PM

I see someone playing 11-dimensional chess to make sure something—anything—gets passed, then coming back a few years later to clean up the mess. You know—get half a loaf now because that’s all you can get, then get the rest later. Sort of like, I dunno, health care reform.

You got this from Fred Kaplan right? Yes, this is the first take on LBJ, as put forth by historians like Arthur Schlesinger jr. But there’s been a lot of research since that time, much of it taking civil rights veterans opinions into account and much of it relying on newly discovered documents (like LBJ’s attack on Truman).  Even the Kaplan piece concedes that he 1957cra has been erased from the history books.

Now, I provided you earlier with the CRM’s take on the issue. But you disregarded them in favor of a white liberal. So allow me to introduce to you white lefty historian, Phillip Klinkner. Here he is talking about what LBJ did with Ike’s 57 bill:

Thus, while Johnson recognized that he had to fight for a civil rights bill, it couldn’t be this civil rights bill.

Consequently, Johnson’s first maneuver was to help defeat an effort by Republicans and liberal Democrats to rewrite Senate Rule 22 in order to short-circuit the expected Southern filibuster. At the opening of the 1957 session, pro-civil rights senators sought a ruling from Vice President Richard Nixon, acting in his capacity as the Senate’s presiding officer, that the Senate was not a continuing body and therefore was not bound by previous rules. That would mean that a majority of senators could establish a new rule allowing debate to be shut off with only a simple majority, not the usual and nearly unobtainable sixty-four votes. Indeed, Nixon, hoping to swing black votes to the GOP, would have issued such a decision. But before he could do so, Johnson used his prerogative as majority leader to move to table the proposed rules change. Using all the skill and power he had amassed as majority leader, Johnson managed to get a majority for his motion. But it was a 55-38 tally. If only seven votes had gone the other way (the three absentees having announced against Johnson’s motion), the motion would have lost, Nixon would have issued his decision, the filibuster would have been broken and an effective civil rights bill would have been passed in 1957, not 1964. As a result of the defeat on Rule 22, the bill that ultimately did pass was only a very weak voting rights measure.

Klinkner concludes:

If ever one needs evidence of the contingency of history, imagine, if you will, those seven votes going the other way. Jim Crow would have died in the late 1950s, avoiding much of the tumult of the 1960s. The Republicans, led by Richard Nixon, would have been the party of civil rights, not the Democrats and Lyndon Johnson. From there, one can spin off any number of plausible scenarios that result in a very different history of the past forty years.

What is described here is sheer evil. In light of this new evidence, perhaps you would like to reconsider your position.

Comment #77: Manju  on  01/24  at  09:11 PM

Manju at 44—you may have better luck voting for Obama in 2012.

I think part of fetus love is that unfeeling/thinking clumps of cells make the best christians. I watched the “Left Behind” movies (don’t ask) and all the fetusses get raptured away, leaving their thinking/feeling/sinning mothers behind.

Comment #78: alysia  on  01/24  at  09:23 PM

“Manju at 44—you may have better luck voting for Obama in 2012.”

Wait, maybe i meant Michele Obama for Senate-NY 2014!

Comment #79: Manju  on  01/24  at  09:26 PM

Also @78

The idea that the civil rights act would have avoided if passed in the 60s is bullshit. The Brow decision was ruled in the 1950s and wasn’t acted on for years. The law didn’t magically change people into non racists; it took the tumult of the 60s to make the government act on desegregation.

And I am not sure what position we should be reconsidering. Should we think that racism is good because the Democratic party was super racist 60 years ago? Should we vote Republican and pretend the Southern strategy didn’t happen because Nixon was only racist because LBJ forced him to be? What are you doing here besides trying to blow our wee liberal minds.

Comment #80: alysia  on  01/24  at  09:31 PM

Thats a lot of Obama love for a self-described right winger.

Comment #81: alysia  on  01/24  at  09:36 PM

Manju is a troll I’ve seen too often at Feministe. Xie’s SOP is to re-envision history and legality and quibble of tiny details as if they somehow change they whole picture.

Xie’s good a derailing and could benefit from the stick-rule.

Comment #82: R.T.  on  01/24  at  09:43 PM

Manju, even if I concede the point, that only means that sometime between 1957 and 1964 that LBJ changed his mind about civil rights law.

As for whether Johnson’s actions in 1957 are really “pure evil”, I really don’t think there’s enough in that passage to judge his motives. Screwing around with the filibuster has been a source of major drama over the decades, and no politician in their right mind is going to willingly make changes that bite them or their party in the ass. His actions could be a bit Lawful Stupid, even incorrect, but calling them outright evil/morally wrong doesn’t fit the evidence you provide.

Comment #83: BrianX  on  01/24  at  09:46 PM

RT:

Isn’t that what they all do?

Comment #84: BrianX  on  01/24  at  09:48 PM

alysia:

I’ve never been completely clear on what the value of this is, but it seems to be about making us ashamed of being Democrats. My best guess is that it has no real validity or meaning; it’s just a diversionary tactic to avoid having to answer for the effects of their ideology. Essentially, it seems to be a (deliberate?) confusion of labels and thought processes.

Comment #85: BrianX  on  01/24  at  09:56 PM

So I can’t quite understand this. Segregationists bombed and murdered to prevent black people from exercising their voting rights and their right to equal education pretty much throughout the 60s, including the period after the Civil Rights Act was passed. But if the federal government had simply passed legislation earlier, none of that would have happened. Have I got that right?

Comment #86: paul  on  01/24  at  09:59 PM

The idea that they are somehow more racist than the right, however, is a misnomer put out by the GOP.

The idea that the Democratic Party is even equally racist (or sexist, or homophobic, etc.) to the Republican Party is silly. For all of its flaws, and it certainly has many, the Democratic Party ain’t got shit on the GOP when it comes to rampant xenophobic hatred of all non-privileged classes. And I say that while fully acknowledging that racism, sexism, and homophobia are all ugly realities within the Democratic Party.

Comment #87: DTGslu2K  on  01/24  at  10:07 PM

paul:

It might have reduced the carnage, but I doubt things would have been drastically different. The only real changes I can imagine is that there might have been less overlap with the Vietnam protest movement and some different names in the pantheon of civil rights heroes.

Comment #88: BrianX  on  01/24  at  10:09 PM

So I can’t quite understand this. Segregationists bombed and murdered to prevent black people from exercising their voting rights and their right to equal education pretty much throughout the 60s, including the period after the Civil Rights Act was passed. But if the federal government had simply passed legislation earlier, none of that would have happened. Have I got that right?

he idea that the civil rights act would have avoided if passed in the 60s is bullshit.

You know, here’s an idea. How about listening to the actual Veterans of the Civil Rights Movement. You know, the people who were actually there, who witnessed the events. They have voices you know. Here is what they have to say on the issue (from their website that I posted earlier):

Seven years later, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is passed. It contains many of the provisions gutted out of the 1957 Act. But during the seven years between 1957 and 1964, many are killed for demanding the right to vote, hundreds are beaten, thousands jailed, and tens of thousands suffer economic retaliation in the struggle for basic human dignity. The Federal government says it does not have the legal authority to stop civil rights abuses. Movement lawyers dispute their claim that they lack legal means to protect American citizens — and most Movement veterans believe that the cause of Federal inaction is political rather than lack of adequate laws — but there is no doubt that had the Civil Rights Act of 1957 been passed in its original form, much of the loss and suffering endured by those who fought for freedom might have been prevented.

Comment #89: Manju  on  01/24  at  10:20 PM

Some trolls are annoying, some trolls can be fun to slap around, and some trolls write things so amazingly reprehensible that they don’t even deserve to be acknowledged as human beings.

The shitstain that crapped all over this thread at Comment #62 doesn’t deserve to post here, or anywhere really. Please zap its comment, because I don’t think those who are close to the victims in Tucson deserve to have their anguish taunted, even if they never visit this blog or see those horrible words.

Comment #90: DTGslu2K  on  01/24  at  10:27 PM

Violence continued after the civil rights act was passed. remember how king was assisinated in 1968? The Detroit and Watts riots both toook place after CRA was passed. The South was not going to let go of White supremacy without a lot of ugly violence regardless of the law. I agree that it would have been better had the CRA passed earlier, but as you qoute Klinkner as saying “most Movement veterans believe that the cause of Federal inaction is political rather than lack of adequate laws”. He concludes that loss and suffering MIGHT have been prevented.

And by “political” problems, they mean that the executive was unwilling to enforce the existing civil rights legislation (like the 14th and 15th amendments).

I am sure that LBJ was racist, especially by today’s standards, and that he very likley sold out civil rights for political gain, but that doesn’t change the fact that LBJ committed the federal government to civil rights than any other president before or after him (schools are more segregated now than in ‘51). This also doesn’t undo the Republican’s Southern strategy. So you still basically lack a point.

Comment #91: alysia  on  01/24  at  10:43 PM

RT, I don’t like you using made-up gender pronouns as an insult.  And if you don’t mean it as on, that’s how it reads to someone who doesn’t know.  Transgendered words aren’t ‘nongendered’.  Please use whatever pronoun they used, or, I dunno, use ‘they’, which has been used for several hundred years just fine.

Comment #92: Crissa  on  01/24  at  11:18 PM

#79: it’s interesting how obsessed over Terry Schiavo they were, isn’t it? She was brain dead and in a vegatative state, the perfect docile real live doll. No opinions, no free will, nothing but smiles. At least that’s what they focused their videos on.

Comment #93: ginmar  on  01/25  at  12:46 AM

Comment #93: Crissa

I don’t use neologisms as an insult. I don’t know Manju’s sex/ gender preference and if Manju made a preference I missed it as I don’t read in detail what trolls (especially nasty ones) I’m aware of write.

I use a self invented neologism (though I doubt I’m the only person who uses a “xie” base) as a means of inclusion in that not everyone is a cissexual or cisgender which I think “they” excludes by default assumptions by way of normalization of dominant groups.

Personally as a person who rejects masculinity, is an asexual, and identifies as genderqueer I think it important to be forceful against default assumptions which go to benefit privileged groups.

Not by means to be obstinate or challenging but to create dialogue: would you think it better I create a more unique neologism or just use they?

Comment #94: R.T.  on  01/25  at  12:57 AM

The Brow decision was ruled in the 1950s and wasn’t acted on for years.

Little Rock, Ike Vs Faubus, National Guard. 101st Airborne soldiers. ???

Violence continued after the civil rights act was passed. remember how king was assisinated in 1968? The Detroit and Watts riots both toook place after CRA was passed. The South was not going to let go of White supremacy without a lot of ugly violence regardless of the law.

Right. So if you’re aware that violence continued after the 64 act, why are you so concerned that violence would’ve also continued had the 57 bill-as-written been allowed to be passed by LBJ? Don’t you think Veterans of the civil rights movement are aware of that? What they are simply trying to tell us is that “during the seven years between 1957 and 1964, many are killed for demanding the right to vote, hundreds are beaten, thousands jailed, and tens of thousands suffer economic retaliation in the struggle for basic human dignity.”

LBJ cost them 7 years.

I agree that it would have been better had the CRA passed earlier,

You don’t say!

but as you qoute Klinkner as saying “most Movement veterans believe that the cause of Federal inaction is political rather than lack of adequate laws”. He concludes that loss and suffering MIGHT have been prevented.

No, that quote is from the Veterans of the Civil Rights Movement. Obviously, you have to use qualifiers when you are talking about something that didn’t happen. There’s simply no way to know for certain.

And by “political” problems, they mean that the executive was unwilling to enforce the existing civil rights legislation (like the 14th and 15th amendments).

Right. It was political will. When Ike finally exercised some, by sending troops to little rock, LBJ played the false equivalency card, “There should be no troops from either side patrolling our school campuses anywhere.”

Aldai Stevenson’s running mate told us that “occupying Little Rock has brought about further deterioration of relations and further embitterment between our Negro and white citizens.” Democratic Senator and Kennedy supporter Richard Russell compared the 101st Airborne troops to Hitler’s storm troopers. Stevenson himself hinted at no action “I don’t suppose the president has much that he can do.”

JFK was nuanced at best, unsupportable and critical at worst:  “The Supreme Court’s ruling on desegregation of schools is the law of the land,” he told a reporter, “and though there may be disagreement over the president’s leadership on this issue, there is no denying that he alone had the ultimate responsibility for deciding what steps are necessary to see that the law is faithfully executed.”

Future House Speaker Jim Wright of Texas wanted troops out: “I have every confidence that you are as fully anxious as anyone to find a basis on which the troops may be withdrawn and order restored at an early date.”

The 57 bill had provisions that would make federal intervention clearer. Ike wanted judges to be able to issue a contempt citation when whites, after being found guilty of violating voting rights of Blacks, violated a court injunction to stop.  But knowing damn well all-white juries would never convict a white for refusing to allow blacks to register to vote, democrats,  including 2 future presidents, inserted a jury trial amendment. 

LBJ went even further than JFK, removing the core of Ike’s bill:  title III. That provision would’ve given the Justice Department authority to file civil suits on behalf of persons whose civil rights had been violated.

Comment #95: Manju  on  01/25  at  02:09 AM

Manju, did LBJ fuck your dog or something? Seriously, nobody’s writing hagiographies of the guy, just giving credit where credit is due. The demonization is not warranted.

Comment #96: BrianX  on  01/25  at  03:18 AM

“Seriously, nobody’s writing hagiographies of the guy, just giving credit where credit is due.”

Correct.  LBJ was in many ways a despicable human being.  But just as it’s said that “Only Nixon could go to China”, I’m pretty confident that “Only LBJ could push Civil Rights legislation through Congress.”  It took someone who was a snake, who knew where the bodies were buried, who knew how to fight dirty, to get that accomplished.

So the bill Eisenhower wanted was better — did he get it on his desk to sign?  No.  Did Kennedy get the bill he wanted?  No.  Did Johnson get the bill he wanted?  Probably not, but he got several bills through the system that were good enough to sign into law.  That’s better than his predecessors did. 

We would all have been better off if Truman could have got the healthcare bill he wanted.  But he didn’t get it.  The best anybody did was create Medicare (for which you can thank LBJ again), until Obama.  Do I like the results?  I’m very disappointed, and so are a lot of other Americans.  Was it the best we could get under the circumstances?  Unfortunately the answer is “probably”.  Would McCain have done better?  Are you kidding? 

We would have been better off if the 3/5ths Compromise wasn’t embedded into the founding document of this country.  But it was.  Those who didn’t like slavery were unable to get the Constitution they wanted.  But we got a country out of it, even if we had to fight a Civil War to fix some flaws that were designed in.

Politics is a necessary evil.  Understanding that you seldom get what you want is part of growing up.  Politicians will almost always be disappointing.  That’s just the nature of the beast.  The same is true all over the world.  Welcome to the human race…

Comment #97: MikeEss  on  01/25  at  10:40 AM

LBJ was fucked up, but so were the times he grew up in and so was the process he had to use to get anything done. Even fucked up people can do good things. Just acknowledging that people are fucked up and complicated and need to fight dirty is enough to give conservatives headaches. They don’t think in shades of gray.  You have to be either the virtuous Xtian warrier or the evil, licentious, pretentious liberal.

Comment #98: ginmar  on  01/25  at  02:55 PM

roscoe3680 @ 91: ginmar and I don’t always agree and aren’t even always civil, but troll @62 should be permenantly banned for his (sure bets on that) response to her.  What an ass.  Unless we want to keep SWPL around as an example of the at oh so sane and non-violent rw discourse.

Manju seems to be unable to disconnect the parts from their current common stance.  Democrats are currently more liberal (though I wouldn’t call them liberal myself, just more liberal) than Republicans.  Somehow, the fact that wasn’t always so just doesn’t seem to leave a mark.

Comment #99: helen w. h.  on  01/25  at  04:14 PM

For some reason every time I read Manju’s name I think of Menjou the telekinetic ferret from the webcomic “Candi” by Starline Hodge. Although Menjou’s only real sin was escaping from the lab and getting into trouble with the squirrel Mafia.

Comment #100: BrianX  on  01/25  at  11:15 PM

There’s a squirrel Mafia?  Oh, that explains so much!

Comment #101: helen w. h.  on  01/26  at  10:35 AM
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