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Next entry: Pre-Post-Racial Previous entry: Pills

Code red on feminist woo

I don’t mean to keep hammering at Bitch Blogs for this, but it’s just irresponsible at this point.  Earlier today, I criticized an interview with anti-pill activist Laura Eldrige for engaging in unscientific fear-mongering.  Well, there’s a part two up.  In the first part, there was the pretense that this is about “asking questions” and “broadening the discussion”, a cover story that skeptics like to call “JAQing off”. 

JAQing off is the act of spouting accusations while cowardly hiding behind the claim of “Just Asking Questions”.  The strategy is to keep asking leading questions in an attempt to influence listeners’ views; the term is derived from the frequent claim by the denialist that they are “just asking questions”, albeit in a manner much the same as political push polls. It is often associated with denialism in general.

In my experience, JAQers usually drop the pretense fairly quickly, and that’s exactly what happens in part two of this interview.  The pretense that this is about demanding more options and greater variety is dropped, and it’s full-blown demonizing of the birth control pill, complete with characterizing women on it as hapless victims who don’t have control over their lives.  If you think I’m overstating it, let me say this—-Eldridge basically says that being on the pill makes you a junkie.

I went to a conference with Barbara in 2007 and a doctor was talking about HRT (which by the way, is made of the same chemicals that are in the Pill but at lower doses) - and I asked her about women coming off of hormone treatments and how they could get, perhaps, addicted to them and she was very adamant that women do not get addicted to these drugs. I couldn’t believe her contention. These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals. Many women describe experiences coming off the Pill that sound like addiction. That said, not all women find coming of the Pill or HRT tough – I didn’t have a problem with it.

Oh, good to know she doesn’t think we’re all junkies!

The slim excuse for this hyperbolic language is that she’s talking about physical dependency, but let’s face it.  Calling the pill “addictive” is about aligning it with recreational drugs, which is something that I expect from sex-phobic anti-choicers who think we all have abortion parties, but not from a feminist.  Using that frame is sex-negative, whether Eldridge intends it to be or not. 

That’s the weirdest part of the interview, but it’s far from the only weird part of it.  Eldridge mentioned a whole bunch of contraception alternatives in the last post, but in this one, she talks about how she settled on using a diaphragm.  Yes, the much-reviled method that was so popular in the anti-feminist 1950s!  The one that has fallen out of fashion because it has all the negatives of condoms without any of the positives (STD protection, getting men involved).  And as if daring me to call her a crank, Eldridge practically delights in the fact that the doctor thought she was loony for wanting a diaphragm. 

In all seriousness, I’m sure the diaphragm is fine.  Like Eldridge says, it worked fine for a lot of women in its heyday.  According to Planned Parenthood, it has a 6% failure rate if used correctly.  Not as good as the pill, but not so horrible, either.  And since I’m into vinyl collecting and vintage dresses, I can’t pick on someone who enjoys a little of that retro flair, though I can’t say that it seems very satisfying to have it hugging your cervix.  But it’s funny to me that someone who, in her JAQing off phase, bemoaned the lack of innovation in contraception is now applauding a method that hasn’t changed much, if at all, in the past 60 years.  And while she says it’s easy to use now, the fact that it took her three weeks to figure out how to use it properly doesn’t do much to dissuade me from feeling that Eldridge is working from the premise that sex should be a hassle.

And then there’s the conflation of science and superstition.

There’s a certain amount of superstition that comes in to trying to avoid getting pregnant. You put your faith in one method or another. Being more in control of the process and taking responsibility for what happens can be scary. It’s amazing that we have this one size fits all Pill where someone who is 4’10’’ and 95 pounds takes the same one as someone who is 6’2’’ – that doesn’t seem right.


I’m sorry, but this is just stupid.  Women don’t use the pill on “faith”.  Those hormones and chemicals Eldridge is trying to raise fears about?  They are scientifically demonstrated to suppress ovulation.  To hear her talk about it, people are just swallowing random shit and hoping it works.  In reality, the effectiveness rates for birth control pills come from scientific studies, with controls and everything!  She can’t have it both ways.  Either the pill is some kind of chemical that affects your body, or it’s like trying to control your fertility by praying.  She’s just throwing everything she’s got at it, even arguments that contradict each other. 

As for her concerns about body size?  Guess what! That’s actually accounted for.  In one of those non-faith bona fide scientific studies, they found that the pill is slightly less effective in overweight women.  If you’re overweight, that means that a pill that would have a 1% failure rate goes up 1.6-1.7% failure rate, if I’m doing the math correctly.  Not great, but I have to point out that it’s still better than the diaphragm.  Of course, there are more health risks for overweight women on the pill, which is something to consider.  Good doctors discuss all this with their patients.  But the reason it’s less effective has less to do with Eldridge’s kind of goofy understanding of how the pill works.  It’s not that you get less “coverage” over your whole body, it seems.  It’s more that overweight people tend to have higher metabolisms, so the drug is used up faster.  Losing weight would lower their metabolisms.

And to round off this interview, we get a little paranoia about the male birth control pill that hasn’t been invented yet.

But pharmaceutical companies are much more wary about inflicting the possible side effects on men. They say, for example, that the male contraceptive can not have any effect on men’s sexuality, when the female Pill certainly does have this impact on women. Women are supposed to tolerate these problems and possibly until they hear men stand up and say they don’t want to take the male Pill then they won’t think any further.

There’s a lot of real sexism in the world, enough that you really don’t need to make it up to be against it.  While individual women have anecdotally said the pill drove down their sex drive, the only study I’ve found that indicates that is a very small one that has control problems.  Whereas I do believe the research on the male birth control pill was pretty conclusive on the sex drive issue, and the dip was severe.  What’s so funny to me is that anti-pill arguments often go into the “have it both ways” bin when it comes to this.  We’re told that the pill was invented by men so they could get laid more, and that it drives down a woman’s sex drive.  Why would those diabolic men push a drug that makes women say “no” more often?

The real reason there hasn’t been a male birth control pill is mundane.  No one really knows how to do it.  Despite Eldridge’s constant banging on about how unnatural the pill is, it works because it mimics a process that a woman’s body has all on its own, which is ovulation suppression.  Right after you ovulate, your body starts sending out hormone signals that keep you from ovulating again—-this presumably evolved so women can’t get pregnant after they get pregnant.  (Though on very, very, very rare occasions this fails and a woman does get pregnant while pregnant.  Weird, right?)  What the pill does is keeps your hormones at the level they would be after you ovulated.  That’s basically it. 

The problem is there isn’t a natural process in a man’s body that stops sperm production.  (Except death, but seems like it has even more drawbacks than a diaphragm as a birth control method.)  Without a model of how to do that, researchers are kind of stuck in the throwing-darts-at-a-map phase.  To make it worse, I don’t think the research funding is ever going to be adequate.  Drug companies believe that the demand for this product just isn’t high enough to turn a profit to justify the research expenses.  I think their fears are overblown because of sexism, but they probably have a point, too.  Except for women who really have bad luck with the birth control pill, not many women are going to see the need to hand the control over to someone who doesn’t run the risk.  The perception is that we’re more likely to take care of ourselves than others.  The research that shows that men are more likely to hope for an oops pregnancy than women only makes me more certain that a lot of women have a good reason not to trust that their partners would be diligent.  (Not that they’d purposefully get you pregnant, but they may not be highly motivated not to forget the pill.)  That research is only going to make drug companies less inclined to invest money in researching a male birth control pill without an obvious path to success. 

I’m sorry that I had to dedicate not one, but two posts to this.  But I have a good reason.  Political activism should be grounded in reality and respectful of scientific evidence in all cases, but this requirement is doubly important for feminism.  Why?  Because feminism is already vulnerable to attacks based on the sexist notion that women are hysterical and irrational.  Feminists are already up against a wall of accusations that we make up sexism and we’re paranoid.  It doesn’t help us when some feminists embody the worst stereotypes of irrationality and paranoia.  And then there’s always the “feminists hate sex” side dish of hate, which is not helped when you have feminists out there exploiting sex negativity in order to push the idea that sex should be unnecessarily cumbersome.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:38 PM • (161) Comments

I’m still really irritated that RISUG and reversible vasectomy are not being examined more thoroughly, since the male plumbing is both much simpler and far more accessible than the female apparati.

Comment #1: Punditus Maximus  on  04/05  at  05:05 PM

“These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals,” which of course is why you see so many junkies on street corners shooting up sulphuric acid.

Comment #2: rea  on  04/05  at  05:06 PM

RISUG went into Phase III clinical trials in India nearly a decade ago but there have been all kinds of holdups since then from what I can gather on the Web. Still, it should actually arrive at some point, something that can’t be said with any confidence about any other reversible male contraceptive method.

Comment #3: Steve LaBonne  on  04/05  at  05:15 PM

Punditus Maximus, thanks for mentioning RISUG.  I hadn’t heard of it before, and now I have.

I think this kind of narrow anti-science thinking is pretty common, and would be harmless if right-wingers weren’t so ready to seize on it.  Anti-vaxxers are the same way, distrusting this very specific area of scientific study while continuing to get into airplanes and cars without worrying about it to the point of a boycott.  But right-wingers have an interest in painting widespread health initiatives (like universal vaccination) as some sort of evil plot, so they line up with the anti-vaxxers and the media gets to pay attention to a Controversial Issue that has Both Liberals and Conservatives Worried.

Worried anti-science liberals line up with conservatives that want to ban all contraception, one piece at a time, until women are yoked to their wombs like in the good old days.  I don’t think liberal anti-contraceptive activists are evil, just kind of silly.

Comment #4: Ferox  on  04/05  at  05:26 PM

Excellent takedown of the horrible unscientific BS around this subject, but on a larger scale, in the end I think it’s less sexist than the stubbornly tenacious, puritanical, anti-science streak on the left.

(Thankfully their typical beliefs tend to turn off the stubbornly tenacious, puritanical, anti-science streak on the right or we’d have a serious problem with the WooJeebus folks.)

You see the same thing with idiots like Bill Maher, who’s all for legalizing pot, but thinks that antidepressants are a diabolical plot to make you sick for the profit of the drug companies, or Jenny McCarthy, who in the face of all the (resounding) evidence to the contrary, insists that vaccines are an evil that must be stopped.

Comment #5: BruceJ  on  04/05  at  05:28 PM

It seems like this ploy to get mother-nature type ladies to buy into anti-feminism has been around for awhile now. I know Leslee Unruh, of Abstinence Clearing House fame, has been trying to tell people that the pill is big pharma trying push its way to your lady parts and turn you into a man. It also seems to be a talking point for “feminists for life”. I was always sort of afraid it would penetrate main-stream feminism through some upper-middle class crunchy types. I hope this gets nipped in the bud.

I also think that most of her relevant-ish points would be best addressed through more comprehensive sex education and a destigmatizing of all things sex so that people weren’t afraid to ask their doctors why they were prescribed a certain brand and how exactly said brand works. But then Eldridge wouldn’t have an audience to eat up her crazy.

Comment #6: alysia  on  04/05  at  05:32 PM

There’s a certain amount of superstition that comes in to trying to avoid getting pregnant. You put your faith in one method or another.

Admit it readers, you’re just as confused and frightened as I am!

Comment #7: atheist  on  04/05  at  05:44 PM

I’m still stuck on superfetation. Super weird.

Comment #8: t-ster  on  04/05  at  05:45 PM

Sorry, I’m still on the first page and have to comment. 
For me, the diaphram was not fine.  It was messy, more expensive than condoms and interupted more (you really have to plan your sex or include insertion as part of foreplay - that can work, but is much more a disruption than tear and unroll).  I also reacted to some of the sermicides and sometimes one would be okay for a while and then I would react out of the blue.  Then the fact you were supposed to leave it in for some outrageous length of time and reload spermicide if you wanted a 2nd round.

Comment #9: helen w. h.  on  04/05  at  05:47 PM

Damn, rea (@2) beat me to the punch.

On a more serious note, though… I take TH4 (Thyroid hormone) in addition to by BCP because, well, in short my immune system killed my thyroid gland.  TH4 is a “powerful chemical” in the sense that it influences a lot of bodily functions, mainly on the metabolism end.  But Christ onna Stick that doesn’t mean it’s ADDICTIVE.

In fact, it makes my case a pretty good example of how pills full of hormones actually help a person function more normally than they would with a “natural” withered thyroid.  I have more energy, which means I exercise more.  I can eat food (at all) without gaining weight.  You know, the way normal people do.

Granted this isn’t a perfect analogy with HBC, but it’s close.  HBC takes a process the female body does ANYWAY and tweaks it.  That’s all.  And yes, sometimes going off them can have side effects as hormone cycles readjust.  But it’s not like the body treats them as a goddamn fix. 

Jeebus.  The ignorance.  It burns.

Comment #10: Caelan Aegana  on  04/05  at  05:56 PM

Excellent takedown of the horrible unscientific BS around this subject, but on a larger scale, in the end I think it’s less sexist than the stubbornly tenacious, puritanical, anti-science streak on the left.

Both/and.  I agree with you 100%, but as some women pointed out in the earlier thread, these kind of attitudes fall more heavily on women.  The reason is that nature is gendered feminine, and also the thankless tasks of the world are put on women, and there’s a general unease about making women’s lives easier.  (This attitude infects a movement I also love, the better food movement.  There’s a real guilt-tripping of women about not wanting to make labor-intense food from scratch.)  Add sexual guilt into the mix, and you have a real disaster.  Anti-science attitudes tend to explode in areas of life that are already guilt-intensive.  That’s why anti-vaccination stuff is taking off.  It has real traction with the perennially guilt-ridden anxious parenting set.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  05:58 PM

Anti-science attitudes tend to explode in areas of life that are already guilt-intensive.

I’m trying to compile a list - this makes a lot of sense.  Sex and parenting are logical starting points.  Food is certainly there as you mention, too, and it impacts a lot of areas in the food chain, from nonsense-fad diets that are based on some nonscientific principle to irrational conversations about food production that stem off of some certainly rational questions about the industrialized food supply.

What else would make sense, in at least the near future?  Family generally seems like a good one - and I’d note the prevalence of psychics who promise you contact with deceased relatives that you never called often enough.

Comment #12: Billingham  on  04/05  at  06:03 PM

helen, thanks for that point.  I think it really does point to an under-discussed aspect of contraception choice, which is the physical act of sex itself.  What you prefer in bed has a big impact on your choices.  If, for instance, you really like fucking but have a small vagina, I could see that the IUD pokage problem might not be so great for you.  If you’re into sex where you have foreplay and then intercourse and then done—-and you plan it ahead of time—-the the diaphragm might work just fine.  But if you like to pull out a lot, condoms are better and non-barrier methods are even easier than that.  If you’re in to anal, female condoms are supposedly the best thing ever for that.  One thing I’ve found interesting talking to friends is that kinky people actually seem to do the best with FAM, because intercourse isn’t always the most important thing to them.  Which has to make the Catholic boosterism of it even funnier.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  06:07 PM

“These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals,”

Gee, I wonder if she’s concerned about getting addicted to the harsh chemicals in the spermicide diaphragm use requires? Powerful chemicals after all.

Feminist Woo is problem, as is Goddess/Matriarchy sold as “human religion” for the first 100,000 of human history. We have to be as critical our own reimagined desires as we are of patriarchy promoted visions.

Comment #14: Thealogian  on  04/05  at  06:11 PM

I have friends who, if they aren’t horribly vigilant about their hormones and diet, suffer terribly at the hands of ‘natural’ menstruation.

It always bugs me seriously that they have to fight with health insurance (when they have it) to classify ‘the pill’ as a medical treatment rather than ‘birth control’.  They always get letters saying ‘oops, we don’t cover that!’.  Look, sometimes birth control can be used to control otherwise painful or dangerous menstrual conditions!  The ‘oops, it’s birth control’ really pisses me off.

We’re living in the future where we know what many of these things do, have studied this extensively for decades.  There’s no reason a woman should suffer ‘the pill’ or suffer without it.

Grr.  Anti-science people make me so mad.

Comment #15: Crissa  on  04/05  at  06:16 PM

For the women who react badly to hormones (I was one) I’d recommend the Cervical Cap over the diaphragm any day.

Tighter fit, easy as pie to insert, easy to learn to use.

About the same failure rate for women who haven’t given birth, used with spermicide (add a condom to up effectiveness for birth control, as well as below:).

‘some research suggests that cervical barriers have the potential to protect women from some sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.”

http://www.cervicalbarriers.org/information/methods.cfm#

http://www.birth-control-comparison.info/capinfo2.htm

Cervical cap: My favorite form of birth control, ever.

Comment #16: judybrowni  on  04/05  at  06:28 PM

It sounds like some premature moving of goalposts if you ask me.

I remember reading an article a few years back about some idiots who had broken into a veterinary clinic and stole a shit ton of Oxytocin because they thought it was Oxycodone.

One is a powerful addictive painkiller, and the other stimulates labor and lactation. Most people are going to confuse Oxytocin with Oxycodone and think that you can get high on the former.

Sure enough, a year or so later, you’ve got dipshits like Uhruh talking about how orgasms release Oxytocin in women, and that sluts are actually *addicted* to the Oxytocin. They’re relying on the fact that most people are going to hear Oxytocin and think Oxycodone and drum up the idea that women who enjoy sex are basically just a bunch of prescription junkies looking to get their fix from whatever dick happens to be available.

So I think it’s kind of natural to then suggest that women who use the pill (you know, sluts), are ADDICTED to the pill. Because it lets them be sluts who are addicted to oxytocin.

I just expected them to wait for the oxytocin addiction meme to get a little more traction in conventional wisdom before they took that next leap.

Comment #17: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/05  at  06:30 PM

(And yes, to use the word “addictive” for hormones is nonsense scare tactics, but there are side effects to their use, at least for some women, to which I can testify personally.)

Comment #18: judybrowni  on  04/05  at  06:31 PM

judybrowni, IIRC another advantage of the cervical cap over the diaphragm is that you don’t have to reapply spermicide if you want to go for round 2.  Plus you can put it in up to 24 hours ahead so you don’t necessarily have to grind everything to a halt to put it in.

If I ended up having to give up the Pill while I’m still fertile, I’d probably go with a cervical cap over a diaphragm or IUD.

Comment #19: Mnemosyne  on  04/05  at  06:31 PM

My experience with an IUD was horrific, ongoing, multiple yeast infections.

But then again, when I took the pill hormone levels were about ten times what they are today.

My generation of women have been lab rats for testing of hormones and other methods of birth control.

I know all about the ease of cervical cap use as compared to the diaphragm: for one thing, I didn’t have to try to pry my cervical cap off the bathroom ceiling.

Comment #20: judybrowni  on  04/05  at  06:38 PM

We’re told that the pill was invented by men so they could get laid more, and that it drives down a woman’s sex drive.  Why would those diabolic men push a drug that makes women say “no” more often?

Chalk me up to one of those anecdotal cases, but I do feel like hormonal birth control lowers my sex drive. 

The first go round, on the pill when I was 19-20, it was terrible.  Then again, the side effects in general were terrible, and I was in an abusive relationship with a toxic person that I had perfectly good non-medical reasons not to want sex with. 

This more recent go-round, on the ring, it’s happening again, though in a much milder way.  Even though other side effects are not severe, and I’m with someone who I adore and who treats me brilliantly.  But it is noticeable.  Then again, since it happened the first time, one could argue that I’m seeing something that isn’t there.  However, the bottom line is that if I want to have sex less on the ring, I want to have sex less on the ring.  Period.  Just because it’s not cut and dry scientifically-proven doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

Comment #21: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  06:40 PM

In all sincerity, I’m just super curious—-with condoms available, why go with a cervical cap?  Condoms seem less fussy to me.  But I’m sure there’s a reason.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  06:42 PM

I don’t disbelieve you, Op, I just I find the contradiction between those arguments amusing.  Is the pill an assault on women’s sex drives, or a diabolical plan to make women fuck more?  People who are opposed to the pill often believe both at once.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  06:45 PM

I thought that oxytocin was to make you addicted ton one man and it is the reason why women have to save themselves for marriage. I have always heard it used as an argument for why women are simply incapable of having casual affairs. We mate for life—just ask Unruh’s first husband.

Comment #24: alysia  on  04/05  at  06:51 PM

Oh, I agree with you there.  Just to clarify.

Comment #25: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  06:52 PM

In all sincerity, I’m just super curious—-with condoms available, why go with a cervical cap?  Condoms seem less fussy to me.

No interruption at the time of coitus, would be my guess, as Mnem pointed out in #19. Not that a condom is a HUGE interruption, but if you’re talking multiple go-rounds, then that’s multiple condoms—or your breakage risk rises.

Comment #26: Well, what?  on  04/05  at  06:53 PM

Is the pill an assault on women’s sex drives, or a diabolical plan to make women fuck more?  People who are opposed to the pill often believe both at once.

If you believe, as many anti-choicers do, that women can never truly enjoy sex at all anyhow, then it’s less cognitively dissonant. You’ll fuck more because that’s what subservient women do, and you’ll enjoy it EVEN LESS, muahahahaha…..

Comment #27: Well, what?  on  04/05  at  06:54 PM

Getting sick & tired of these anti-science wingnuts. It started with the whole vaccine/autism thing and has been spiraling on and on (and on the Huffington Post) from there.
Thanks for this.
It’s so goddamned frustrating reading crap like that I’m glad that you’re here putting a reasonable rebuttal to it.

Comment #28: Danica Lefse Queen  on  04/05  at  06:55 PM

Alysia—the article I’m thinking of was literally that women who had lots of sex became addicted to oxytocin like it was a controlled substance, and so they develop resistance to it (like any junkie), so they keep fucking and fucking, and they’re not bonding like they would have otherwise because they’re building a tolerance to the oxytocin, and so when mr. right comes around she’s all spent and she won’t be able to bond with him and she’ll miss out and become some spinster cat lady.

There was also some nonsense about teenage girls getting high on oxytocin from talking to each other on the phone. It’s all a blur. I had to fuck myself into an absolute STUPOR to get clear of that bullshit.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/05  at  06:59 PM

Hahaha. Wow that is sooo crazy. Did Unruh say that too? Because I am almost certain I have heard her use it as an argument for monogamy too! She is such a nut! I saw that her headquarters was for sale last time I was in Sioux Falls though, so maybe she will go away?

Comment #30: alysia  on  04/05  at  07:07 PM

There was also some nonsense about teenage girls getting high on oxytocin from talking to each other on the phone.

That actually throws the whole thing into light:  the author is angry that women and girls are experiencing the potent and habit-forming emotional state known as “personal enjoyment” or more simply “fun.”  Naturally, if they’re used to - or even reliant on! - this experience, they will never be willing to settle down to the drudgery of marriage to an honest Christian man who’s never been within 100 miles of a major coastal city.  They’ll just spend all their time at home wistful for another jolt of “fun.” 

Also to avoid under this method:  sports, video games, hobbies that aren’t based on domestic work, and flavorful foods.

Comment #31: Billingham  on  04/05  at  07:07 PM

Yeah, the right wing obsession with oxytocin is funny as fuck.  It also points to a real misunderstanding of how hormones work.  People have this idea that there’s a sort of baseline hormonal level, and that spikes are, even if common, somehow outside the norm.  In reality, I think it’s more useful to think of hormones as ebbing and flowing.  The ocean’s height at high tide is no more the natural ocean than the ocean’s height at low tide.

What’s also funny is that oxytocin works for men the same as women.  To read right wingers, you’d think it was a female hormone like estrogen, one that women have a lot more of.  They’re so invested in gender difference, they’re basically arguing that women but not men have an internal drive to bond with other human beings.  Men also have oxytocin spikes when they orgasm with a partner.  In fact, I think it was men they did the study on showing that oxytocin levels rise during partner sex, but not so much with masturbation.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  07:19 PM

Billingham—it also equates any sort of female pleasure with being a prescription drug addict, which brings with it a whole host of prejudices concerning judgement, reliability, etc.

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/05  at  07:19 PM

I honestly didn’t know that men had oxytocin too, i have heard it so much with regards to silly lady feelings. I should look into this more, it sounds like a great story: from science to crazy, the tale of oxytocin.

Comment #34: alysia  on  04/05  at  07:30 PM

When one of the no-sex-before-marriage brigade starts spouting off about oxytocin, and how sex with previous partners “uses up” a woman’s oxytocin supply, rendering her unable to love any man as much as her first, I always want to ask them whether they think all women should restrict themselves to having only one child.  Oxytocin also plays a part in maternal bonding, after all.  Isn’t it unfair to have more children you can’t possibly love as much after “using up” all your oxytocin on the first one?

Comment #35: Sycorax  on  04/05  at  07:39 PM

It’s amazing that we have this one size fits all Pill where someone who is 4’10’’ and 95 pounds takes the same one as someone who is 6’2’’ – that doesn’t seem right.

Does this woman realize that there are actually lots and lots of different versions of the pill?  They come in different mixes of hormones and different strengths!  Sometimes when have to experiment for a couple of months to figure out what works for them.  Just like every other medication.  I know calling it THE pill makes it sound like there’s just one, but if you’re going to go around claiming to have done any research at all, you’d know this isn’t the case.  WTF?

Comment #36: cola  on  04/05  at  07:40 PM

“I’m sorry, but this is just stupid.  Women don’t use the pill on “faith”.”

Well, I’m sure some do, but it’s not like there’s anything in particular stopping them from learning about how it all works and looking at the literature which breaks down precisely how frequently and under what circumstances it does and does not perform the required function.  It’s like driving a car or turning on the lights.  Most people, on a basic level, take it on faith that they’ll depress the brake pedal and be rewarded with deceleration or a full stop, because they’ve never bothered to look up precisely how the brake system on their car works.  The knowledge was transmitted via the basic “someone I trust told me this, and it has yet to fail me or behave in unpredictable ways” route.  This does not somehow transmute the act of taking HBC or hitting the brakes into the same sort of act as sacrificing a goat to halt the transmission of plague or holding a pray-in to make the stock market bounce back.

Comment #37: preying mantis  on  04/05  at  07:49 PM

@35

It makes about as much sense as whole-planet blood control wink

Comment #38: Well, what?  on  04/05  at  08:00 PM

@35 Worse yet, you could become addicted to your children!!! That can’t be healthy, to have America’s youth raised by drug addicted ladies. We best start having women focus on outside employment while cool, rational men do the mundane and thankless work of child-rearing.

Comment #39: alysia  on  04/05  at  08:00 PM

Mark me down as another one who experiences a serious hit to the libido on hormonal BC.  It is not just that I feel dry and have less interest in sex, it is that when I AM having sex I struggle to get aroused and if I can get off at all it takes four times as long.  I have been on and off of the pill twice and tried several different kinds at each try and it seems that my sexual function is just too closely tied to my ovulation cycle or something.  Honestly, I am pretty jealous of all the many people who can be on the pill and not have it completely defeat the point of being on the pill.

Comment #40: GumbyAnne  on  04/05  at  08:14 PM

I’ve had partners whose libidos were enhanced, depressed, and essentially unaffected by the pill.  YMMV.

Comment #41: Punditus Maximus  on  04/05  at  08:24 PM

I went to a conference with Barbara in 2007 and a doctor was talking about HRT (which by the way, is made of the same chemicals that are in the Pill but at lower doses) - and I asked her about women coming off of hormone treatments and how they could get, perhaps, addicted to them and she was very adamant that women do not get addicted to these drugs. I couldn’t believe her contention. These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals.

Ha, I called it in the previous thread. This person isn’t to be taken seriously. These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals. is so priceless it should be on a T-shirt. Although, how someone writing a book on contraception manages to do so without even the most basic knowledge is a mystery.

Also, in case the problem with conflating HRT and the Pill isn’t clear: during repro years you’re just substituting one set of hormones (body) with another (Pill). During menopause, you’re introducing hormones where there [almost] aren’t any. This is why the risk and side-effects profile of HRT and the Pill aren’t directly comparable. This and the indication for use, of course.

Comment #42: ema  on  04/05  at  08:26 PM

Oh, forgot to mention. Unfortunately, the Cervical Cap has been discontinued but if you happen to travel to the UK you can get the Vimule in drugstores. Here you can try the FemCap or the Leah’s Shield but both of these are more cumbersome than the Cap or the Vimule.

Comment #43: ema  on  04/05  at  08:41 PM

The cervical cap is harder than the diaphragm to fit.  When I checked it out back in the day, the provider said I fell between sizes.  I asked her how many women got unlucky this way and she said in her office, almost a third.
  I still have my diaphragm, though haven’t used it for BC in years.  It has a science-fiction spacy look.  Point in its favor: it blocks menstrual flow.

Comment #44: Unree  on  04/05  at  08:54 PM

...she’ll miss out and become some spinster cat lady.

Wait, I thought spinster cat ladies were all dried out and frigid or whatever?  How can that be reconciled with the fact that they are also turbo-sluts who need their man-fix?

Comment #45: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  09:03 PM

It seems like this ploy to get mother-nature type ladies to buy into anti-feminism has been around for awhile now. I know Leslee Unruh, of Abstinence Clearing House fame, has been trying to tell people that the pill is big pharma trying push its way to your lady parts and turn you into a man. It also seems to be a talking point for “feminists for life”. I was always sort of afraid it would penetrate main-stream feminism through some upper-middle class crunchy types. I hope this gets nipped in the bud.

Anyone read Cunt by Inga Muscio? I picked it up as part of an ongoing effort to read as much as possible of the feminist literature I see mentioned on blogs, but had to put it down when I got to the chapter on birth control where she flat out says women can’t trust it because it was developed by male scientists. I forget what her suggested alternative was.

Oh, that and the part where she suggested that pads and tampons were perhaps some type of plot and that when “there are Communists in the funhouse”, ladies could just wrap a towel between their legs or enjoy the power of bleeding on the floor. As my girlfriend noted, it takes a lot to make those 1950’s belts and brick sized pads seem refreshingly modern by comparison.

Comment #46: Egnu Cledge  on  04/05  at  09:05 PM

Ah, Cunt.  I have a begrudging respect for that book, partially because it is just so totally out there.  It’s basically the SCUM Manifesto of our feminist generation. 

I also have to say that, while I don’t subscribe to pretty much any of her ideas about hippy dippy “natural” birth control, menstraution, etc. it was interesting to read about that stuff and then go and do my own research.  In a way, Cunt pointed me in the direction of Our Bodies, Ourselves, which is hardly a bad thing. 

Most of her history/anthropology/linguistics in that book is pretty much bullshit, too, if anyone was curious. 

BTW, as far as I know Muscio is NOT by any means anti-choice or against contraception.  Just crazy as fuck.

Comment #47: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  09:13 PM

Cunt is a stupid book.  It breaks my heart, because it has the best title ever.  It’s ground zero for the perverse version of feminism that argues that the more difficult and cumbersome your reproductive system can be for you, the more “empowered” you’ll be.  Sometimes I think it’s a subtle dig at men for no good reason.  Few men will want to spend time around a woman who bleeds all over the floor as some kind of feminist statement, then you can cast that as some sort of sexist oppression.  Never mind that few women would want that either.  It’s not like your body hair, which is not going to stain stuff if you don’t shave it.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  09:15 PM

These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals.

Oh no! Chemicals! Science! Bad-a-ad!

Eldridge mentioned a whole bunch of contraception alternatives in the last post, but in this one, she talks about how she settled on using a diaphragm.

Probably a latex one made of fair-trade organic rubber, hand-molded by indigeneous Central American artisans who imprint them with spirit animal sigils. Soon to be available at Whole Foods and Anthropologie, and promoted by Eldridge on Oprah: “Everyone look under your seats…!”

You see the same thing with idiots like Bill Maher, who’s all for legalizing pot, but thinks that antidepressants are a diabolical plot to make you sick for the profit of the drug companies

Maher is a small-l libertarian, which would be cool except that he also lives in close proximity to the Santa Monica Mountains. That adds an increased susceptibility to woo and makes for a bad combination.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  09:17 PM

It’s ground zero for the perverse version of feminism that argues that the more difficult and cumbersome your reproductive system can be for you, the more “empowered” you’ll be.

Sounds like the flip side of that Xtian fantasist solid gold hit, “God punishes anyone unfortunate enough to be born with lady parts.”

Few men will want to spend time around a woman who bleeds all over the floor as some kind of feminist statement, then you can cast that as some sort of sexist oppression.

“I swear to the Goddess I’m not a male chauvinist pig. It’s just that the rug is brand new and not Scotch-Guarded.”

I might just have to take a look at that book. It sounds unintentionally over-the-top hilarious.

Comment #50: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  09:25 PM

Cunt reminds me of how recently a friend was trying to sell me on A Gift From the Sea which basically argues that modern conveniences like washing machines have decreased women’s quality of life… because the time we would spend manually scrubbing our clothes against a washboard were meditative times that we found peace during. And while there is some truth that the time we’ve saved by being able to throw our clothes in a washer is typically expected to be filled by finding more chores to do… I can’t really buy the argument that I would be more sane if I could only spend more time on my knees scrubbing the kitchen floor for an hour and a half instead of taking five minutes to use a steam mop.

Comment #51: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/05  at  09:30 PM

I’ve scrubbed a kitchen floor on my hands and knees. It’s highly overrated. Any kind of positive value you give it is too much.  I can’t even imagine what hell it is for a middle-aged woman if my knees were barking.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  09:36 PM

In all sincerity, I’m just super curious—-with condoms available, why go with a cervical cap?  Condoms seem less fussy to me.  But I’m sure there’s a reason.
Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte on 04/05 at 04:42 PM

If a man doesn’t have a strong erection for the entire time, a condom can slide off, slip around, or get twisted up painfully.  Especially if his erect penis is a lot different in size or shape from the flaccid state.

Comment #53: oldfeminist  on  04/05  at  09:42 PM

@ Gracchus: Probably a latex one made of fair-trade organic rubber, hand-molded by indigeneous Central American artisans

Wait, since when is Fair Trade bad?  I have to say that, if I’m going to buy a product like coffee, chocolate, or bananas that can pretty much only be produced in developing countries with a terrible history of exploitation of labor by American corporations, I’d rather choose a product which goes to some lengths to show that it was not created via exploitative labor practices and might actually be helping the local economy.

@ Mighty: modern conveniences like washing machines have decreased women’s quality of life… because the time we would spend manually scrubbing our clothes against a washboard were meditative times that we found peace during.

That book sounds dumb, though I’ll admit I enjoy washing dishes for that very reason.  However, I get to wash my dishes standing at a kitchen sink with hot and cold running water and yummy lemon-scented soap, using a scouring pad made of plastic, all of which are practically free.  And I can choose that as my one laborious chore while using modern conveniences on just about everything else. 

I mean, I guess I get that labor is labor, and most people’s time is going to be filled with drudgery of one sort or another - but I’m actually pretty thankful that my drudgery involves ordering my boss’s lunch and not hauling water from a spring three miles away.

Comment #54: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  09:43 PM

I don’t think he was saying fair trade is bad. Just making fun of the over-the-top hippie factor in all this.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  09:48 PM

As someone who doesn’t do well on the pill, this woman irritates me.  There is a difference between intelligently discussing birth control and its side affects (and considering the no ovulation benefit would make us more similar to our calorie restricted/preggers/nursing foremothers, the pill may be a better imitator of nature than modern first world life without it is), and being afraid.  And addictive?  WTF?  There are all kinds of ways drugs can fuck you up without being addictive.  Grrr.

Condoms are my bc of choice, although they aren’t that great.  Now that the sponge is out again, I may try that, although it isn’t perfect.  But, I am fortunate enough to be married and situated so that if we had a kid now, it wouldn’t be that much worse than if we had a (later, planned) kid.

Sycorax,

That’s awesome.  Don’t cheat on your firstborn by having more children.  Also, if having children increases oxytocin, and having sex increases oxytocin—well, we better not tell the Freudians is all.

cola,

The one Pill to rule them all.  (Sorry, geek mood.)

Comment #56: Ismone  on  04/05  at  09:53 PM

A Gift From the Sea which basically argues that modern conveniences like washing machines have decreased women’s quality of life… because the time we would spend manually scrubbing our clothes against a washboard were meditative times that we found peace during.

This is what comes of being married to an American who’d spent the previous two decades kissing up to the foremost proponent of “Kinder, Küche, Kirche.”

Wait, since when is Fair Trade bad?

When it’s an empty fashion statement.

I agree with you entirely about the true value of Fair Trade, but I was mocking the type of New Age dolt who shops at Whole Paycheque mainly to make the scene.

Comment #57: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  09:53 PM

It’s so interesting to me that BC discussions so often have the same flavor as those about anti-depressants & mood drugs. Statins, diabetes meds, hardcore anti-inflammatories, heart meds, et al, can/do have some crazy side effects and there’s often debate about which/when/for whom. But the level of YOU JUST DON’T *KNOW*!! Big Pharma!!1! And have you tried these eleventy other more “natural” options that exist because you’re POISONING YER BODY!! seems to exist primarily when it comes to the brain and the vag. Mysterious, and unfathomable, both. They deserve Magick!

I’ve got zero opinion on how you staunch your flow, prevent your babies or correct your head. But selling woo about birth control while you take Aleve for your headaches and Imodium for your belly woes makes me laugh.

Comment #58: mir  on  04/05  at  10:00 PM

I don’t think he was saying fair trade is bad. Just making fun of the over-the-top hippie factor in all this.

Sure, but aside from the spirit animal thing and name-dropping Oprah, everything he said was something that would actually be good.  If they sold organic fair-trade condoms at Whole Foods, I would totally buy them.  And, hell, if Oprah wants to plug them, why not?

Comment #59: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:03 PM

I was mocking the type of New Age dolt who shops at Whole Paycheque mainly to make the scene.

Does it really matter, though?  I’d rather those dolts were buying fair trade and eco-friendly stuff at Whole Foods than buying cheap garbage at Walmart.  Sure, they’re idiots who would be clueless Walmart shoppers if they lived in a different state or had fewer digits on their paychecks.  But the result is still good.  Which is what separates things like Fair Trade from stupid woo.

Comment #60: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:07 PM

I think it’s more the show-offy aspects.  Like he just explained.  What’s funny to me is what I said previously, which is I think women’s sexuality is targeted for this kind of stuff with a specificity that you don’t see in other areas of life.  I don’t see the people pushing reusable pads suggesting we wipe our asses with a washcloth and then wash it out every time we shit, you know?  Even though that would actually reduce waste way more, because both sexes shit and they do it all month long, not just some of the time.  I’m glad there are sex toys that are non-toxic out there—-the materials are often nicer feeling than the less than quality stuff—-but it’s funny to me that there’s so much concern about sex toys but other things we touch constantly made of the forbidden sex toy materials don’t register much concern.  It’s like we feel that our sexuality is less justifiable than the rest of us, and so has to be even greener.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  10:10 PM

But selling woo about birth control while you take ... Imodium for your belly woes makes me laugh.

Especially since Imodium is actually a good example of a semi-pointless “unnatural” treatment that most people really don’t need.  Usually you’re crapping like that for a reason—your body wants to get the bad stuff out.  If you just let it do its thing, you’re going to feel a lot better very soon.  Stopping yourself up just prolongs the misery.  Of course, this is impractical if you have a long car ride or important work thing.  Which is why we have Imodium, and that is good. 

But in line with Gracchus’ point about acai berry spirit animal granola bars, I’d bet money that the people who think hormonal birth control is terribly dangerous and unnatural are the same ones who throw a bottle of Imodium into their luggage when they pack for their yoga retreat in Costa Rica.  Because you know Those People have terrible hygeine, amirite?

Comment #62: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:16 PM

Sure, but aside from the spirit animal thing and name-dropping Oprah, everything he said was something that would actually be good.  If they sold organic fair-trade condoms at Whole Foods, I would totally buy them.  And, hell, if Oprah wants to plug them, why not?

For a moment I thought we’d inadvertantly discovered a major Oprah-friendly business opportunity, Opopo. But alas, too late to take advantage of the suckers’ market for fashion-forward New Age organic fair-trade condoms. Heck, they even have elemental symbols of the packaging. Truth 1, Parody 0.

Think there’s a market for the diaphragms? Despite your intolerant rejection of primitive religions and objection to empowering female artisans in the developing world, if we set this up I must insist on the spirit animals warding symbols. Amanda can be our high-profile shill in exchange for a cut of the (evil, evil) profits.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  10:18 PM

The oxytocin stuff drives me nuts.  It is used to argue that a woman who has casual sex will definitely wind up heartbroken.  It is also used to argue that women should do more of the baby care—because, the argument goes, the oxytocin binds us to our children in a way men allegedly are not.  The oxytocin supposedly means that staying virginal and taking on all the baby and child care is necessary for women’s happiness.

We need to hear more of a response to this narrative!

(And agreed as to the problems with feminist woo.  I am definitely inclined to embrace anything that makes my reproductive system—fascinating and wonderful as it is—less messy, painful, and inconvenient.  Looove the pill!)

Comment #64: Laurie  on  04/05  at  10:22 PM

Uh, I would think twice before presuming the value of shopping at Whole Foods.  Industrial organic ain’t much different from industrial non-organic.  Also?  Free trade deals often prop up inappropriate dependence on the global economy, and promote overwhelming the market with commodity products that are already in too great supply to prop up reasonable pricing.  We don’t need to pay a few people for expensive coffee and screw the rest; we need people to be dropping out of the commodity coffee market in favor of growing FOOD to EAT in their own local area.  I’d suggest reading up on the historical transition from foodstuffs to commodity exports (coffee, bananas, chocolate, etc…nevermind plant-based drugs) and how closely linked in that is to food insecurity.  I wish I could feel good about my vices too, but it ain’t as easy as spending more on the stuff with the green label.

Comment #65: skylanda  on  04/05  at  10:23 PM

I think it’s more the show-offy aspects.  Like he just explained.

I guess I just think that the actual good aspects outweigh the possibility that someone might use it as a status symbol.  Especially since I don’t know anyone who actually shops at Whole Foods (and definitely nobody who buys Fair Trade certified products) simply to show off. 

Of course, I agree that WF sells plenty of things that run counter to their stated purpose—sugar-coated “whole grain” cereal, “organic” out-of-season produce shipped in from New Zealand.  And they propagate a lot of stupid woo like Master Cleanse and the obsession with micro-nutrients.  But some things they promote are not woo, and I like that they promote them.

Comment #66: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:24 PM

Like anti-vax woo, anti-Pill woo has been able to catch on only because the medication has been around for so long, and done so much good, that people have forgotten how crappy things were before.  It’s easy to believe that vaccinations are just an evil plot by Big Pharma if you’ve never seen a child die of measles or rubella, or met someone who was handicapped by polio.  (Of course, there are still places in the world where you can see children stricken with polio, if you really need the point driven home.)  Fewer and fewer people remember a time before reliable birth control, so the younger generations have the luxury of demonizing it.

It’s kind of interesting that Eldridge claims women use the pill out of “superstition,” then goes on to say of the diaphragm, “We are told the diaphragm is not effective, but it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.”  Um, how?  It almost comes off like she thinks contraceptive methods become more powerful the harder you believe in them.  It’d be nice if it worked that way, because then we could just use 7-Up douches.

She really doesn’t seem to have a clear idea how any of these methods work.  The main thing she seems to like about the diaphragm seems to be that it’s old, and therefore less tainted by modernity or something.  The stuff about “chemicals” is just wince-inducing.

Comment #67: Shaenon  on  04/05  at  10:25 PM

See, if you want fair trade condoms, you have to embarrass yourself by buying the hippie ones.  I wonder if they come in patchouli scents?

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  10:25 PM

Yeah, but I think it was mostly a toss-off joke.  Particularly since the reality is that simply buying fair trade or organic without a side dose of nauseating hippie aesthetics and exoticism is hard to do.  It’s getting better, but there’s a long way to go.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  10:28 PM

Uh, I would think twice before presuming the value of shopping at Whole Foods.  Industrial organic ain’t much different from industrial non-organic.

As I said, I’m not defending Whole Foods as a company, and certainly not defending all practices associated with their business model.

But if some stupid asshole picks up a Fair Trade chocolate bar on the way to the Master Cleanse and Raw Foods aisle, a small farmer in the Dominican Republic stands to benefit.  Which is still a net good, no matter what a moron the Master Cleanse dickhead is.

And I don’t think that any of us should preach about small producers in developing countries getting out of commodity markets until we’re prepared to never drink coffee or tea again.

Comment #70: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:28 PM

Does it really matter, though?  I’d rather those dolts were buying fair trade and eco-friendly stuff at Whole Foods than buying cheap garbage at Walmart.

Please. If Whole Foods was selling cheap garbage at a high mark-up in a pretty package made from the bark of endangered trees, the kind of person I’m talking about would buy that just as readily.

I like Fair Trade. I like eco-friendly stuff. I like them mainly because I know why they’re good (that and because they’re high-quality).

I also understand that not everyone can afford high-quality, Gaia-friendly, socially responsible products. It would be nice if they weren’t luxury goods, but that would require American consumers to take a hard and critical look at the real, unsubsidised cost of quality goods—something that’s strongly discouraged.

Comment #71: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  10:30 PM

There are adults walking around that were disabled by polio as children, even.  But I do think that reality is also hidden, because most of us see someone older walking with a cane and we don’t pause to wonder if their disability was caused by anything other than just aging.  It’s weird how quickly historical memories can fade, even as the people who witnessed horrors with their own eyes are still among us.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  10:31 PM

Look, the fact of the matter is that the Pill works fine for some people and it’s advanced the basic rights of all people, but as someone who it makes suicidally depressed, I also understand being irritable that it’s considered the last word in contraception. I find the expectation that I’m going to spend years of my life cycling through different pill formulations in the hope of finding one that doesn’t make me sob helplessly for twelve hours a month ridiculous and burdensome. I find the research that’s been done on psychiatric implications insufficiently rigorous, myself, particularly because it tends not to distinguish between individual formulations and tends to depend on clinical reports and surveys. And I have gotten a lot of noncooperation from doctors when I tried to get anything beside traditional hormonal birth control, until blessed Planned Parenthood believed me when I explained that I couldn’t do it anymore and got me an IUD. One doctor actually prescribed me prozac for the side effects that went away as soon as I stopped taking hormonal birth control.

Comment #73: purpleshoes  on  04/05  at  10:32 PM

I wonder if they come in patchouli scents?

No, but there is a flavored line sweetened only with agave nectar which comes in pomegranate, matcha green tea, and kaffir lime.

(a joke, I hope.)

Comment #74: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:34 PM

Do you know what year The Pill was first introduced? 1960.

How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It’s incredibly obvious, isn’t it?

Comment #75: karpad  on  04/05  at  10:36 PM

skylanda, people like having money to send their kids to school and buy plastic buckets and clotheslines with. Supplementing a subsistence farm with plots of market commodities is a reasonable strategy for affording things like tuition and bus fare. If you’re reading about the history of bananas and sugar, I’m sure you’re also aware that the thing that really distorts the agricultural economies surrounding them is - oh dear - the question of who owns the means of production. Is fair trade going to give everyone land tenure? Pshaw, no. Is it going to help some people hold onto land tenure? Well, yes.

I get annoyed at the idea that anything that helps someone is bad because it didn’t help everyone.

Comment #76: purpleshoes  on  04/05  at  10:39 PM

I also understand that not everyone can afford high-quality, Gaia-friendly, socially responsible products. It would be nice if they weren’t luxury goods, but that would require American consumers to take a hard and critical look at the real, unsubsidised cost of quality goods—something that’s strongly discouraged.

On the other hand, organic produce and free range eggs were considered a frivolous luxury a few years ago, and now you can get that at any supermarket in the country, at a price competitive with the conventional stuff.  I’m certainly not wealthy, and yet I can afford to buy organic dairy and eggs at least part of the time. 

The famous Union Square greenmarket here in New York gained notoriety when wealthy people and celebrity chefs started shopping there.  But their success means that the city has been able to bring greenmarkets to neighborhoods all over the city, most of which even take food stamps.  I think it’s silly the way everyone at the big U. Sq. market goes crazy for $8 heirloom tomatoes, but I’m glad that enables people in the Bronx to feed their children better.

Comment #77: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:40 PM

Opoponax, I don’t think the strictest anti-candida diet in the world could stand up to agave nectar up the hoo-ha. But then, in response to the questions about whether spermicides are powerful chemicals, that’s why a whole lot of earthy ladies are putting honey and lemon juice in their diaphragms. I don’t know if it makes them yeasty or not.

Comment #78: purpleshoes  on  04/05  at  10:43 PM

I also understand being irritable that it’s considered the last word in contraception.

I think that’s a little overblown, though, don’t you?  Condoms seem to me to be the method pushed as the last word in contraception.  The only people who tend to think otherwise are gynecologists, who have first hand experience with the mundane reality that most sex is happening in the context of monogamous relationships.  And even then, most doctors I’ve had only wrote that pill prescription after a stern lecture on Always Using Condoms Unless You’re Monogamous And Tested.  The pill is ubiquitous because of consumer demand.  One doctor told me that the main reason that doctors like it much at all is that they can use it as bait to make sure women get regular Pap smears.  There’s also the fact that it introduces a level of predictability into a woman’s cycle—-i.e. she doesn’t cycle any more—-but mainly, I think they’d be a lot happier if more women dropped the pill and used condoms.  Certainly sex educators I know that work with young people get very cynical about the pill, because so many people get STDs because they think that pregnancy is the only risk worth managing, and the pill handles that.

Comment #79: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  10:48 PM

I don’t think the strictest anti-candida diet in the world could stand up to agave nectar up the hoo-ha

For sure.

My favorite thing about the agave nectar thing is that chemically, it’s the same kind of sugar that’s in super-evil High Fructose Corn Syrup.  It’s no better than any other sweetener you could ever use (and arguable worse than some).  But it sounds all exotic and stuff!  Wheee!

Comment #80: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  10:48 PM

Women are putting honey in their vaginas?

God, at least the antibiotics they’ll have to take to fix the side effects like that have been around so long they get grandfathered in as “natural”.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  10:50 PM

Especially since I don’t know anyone who actually shops at Whole Foods (and definitely nobody who buys Fair Trade certified products) simply to show off.

Go over to the Union Square location (Whole Foods, that is, not the greenmarket) around 6:30PM on any weekday (L.A. residents may substitute the Santa Monica or West Hollywood stores). Forget Master Cleanse—many gallons of Fiji Water pass through those automatic doors.

On the other hand, organic produce and free range eggs were considered a frivolous luxury a few years ago, and now you can get that at any supermarket in the country, at a price competitive with the conventional stuff.

Only if you’re in the right neighbourhood. After you visit Union Square, head up to the South Bronx and find that organic produce and free range eggs in a supermarket (assuming, that is, that you can find a quality supermarket).

Anyhow, this is a major de-rail to analyse what Amanda correctly categorises as a throw-away joke, so I’ll leave it there.

Comment #82: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  10:54 PM

Women are putting honey in their vaginas?

As a male, I’d take that over the residue of patchouli condoms. But I don’t think either is optimal. Does chocolate syrup (free-trade, natch) have any spermicidal qualities?

Comment #83: Gracchus.  on  04/05  at  10:58 PM

Gracchus - that’s because the South Bronx doesn’t have any supermarkets to speak of. 

The supermarket I stopped at in Bed Stuy to pick up a couple things on my way home from work tonight did have some organic produce and a decent selection of vegetarian/free-range/organic/non-hormonal dairy, though. 

You can get even more organic stuff at the supermarket in my red state podunk hometown full of “real Americans”.

But yeah.  Joke officially left behind.

Comment #84: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  11:07 PM

Amanda - really? None of my doctors - including the nurse practitioner in my campus health center - have ever said a word to me about STD testing in conjunction with the Pill. I have traditionally had to demand that they do it, and in two cases have been asked to justify why I would think I needed screening. The only time it’s been proffered automatically was in a county health clinic, and even then I wasn’t stubborn enough to get an HIV test out of those people, since I was a lady in a monogamous straight relationship. So we might be experiencing genuinely different medical cultures. Heck, I couldn’t even get them to explain what else they tested for when they did a pap smear - I just used to get sent a postcard with a smiley face on it to indicate that whatever it was, they didn’t find it. Trust me when I say I found this aggravating and was happy to move closer to Planned Parenthood, where they actually give you information when you ask for it.

I think it’s possible that we’ve gotten noticeably different care, which is influencing our views here. Or it’s possible that because I hated hormonal birth control and you have had a really good experience with it, I am more aware of the trials of getting something else and you’re more aware of the trials of getting it to start with. I personally have started really recommending the copper IUD to people who are curious about it - it’s certainly not everyone’s ball of wax, but I would take some bonus cramping over psychological side effects any day, and even that stops after a couple of months. And then you don’t have to do anything else for a decade.

Comment #85: purpleshoes  on  04/05  at  11:10 PM

God, at least the antibiotics they’ll have to take to fix the side effects like that

Honey is actually antiseptic in and of itself and has been used as a topical antimicrobial agent for millennia (and is currently approved for use in this capacity by conventional western medicine). 

Though I suppose it could cause a yeast infection.  Yeasts aren’t bacteria, though, so an antibiotic isn’t going to do much for that.

Comment #86: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  11:11 PM

Oh, and you can put all the honey and lemon juice in your vagina you want, but it’s not going to have any contraceptive effect.  Might smell nice, though.  And maybe prevent BV?

Comment #87: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  11:13 PM

Opoponax, I know that the antibacterial properties work because as honey dilutes it produces hydrogen peroxide - does hydrogen peroxide kill sperm? I was actually partially alarmed because of the antibacterial effect - I’ve always been under the impression that killing off vaginal bacteria is actually deleterious.

Comment #88: purpleshoes  on  04/05  at  11:19 PM

Most vaginal infections are in fact bacterial, and caused by an imbalance in your vaginal chemistry that causes bad to flourish over good bacteria. They do treat it with antibiotics, though doctors also think putting some live culture yogurt in you biz can help.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  11:19 PM

On male birth control—it can be done.  Quite easily through the use of either testosterone or anabolic steroids, the former of which some men can get from sympathetic doctors off-label at any age, the latter of which is fairly easy to get at “anti-aging” type clinics for men over 30.  The problem is, you have to inject, not take a pill, because of various bioavailabily/hepatoxicity issues.  Also, although T is (as far as I’ve been told) fairly on the side affects, anabolic steroids require quite a bit of side affect management.  And some of the drugs/supplements used to manage those side affects have problems of their own.  But, there are men who have taken anabolic steroids for long portions of their lives due to certain diseases, so the safety data is out there.

Purpleshoes—I hear what you’re saying about getting tested—I’ve had similar reactions, like the time I asked for a HIV test after my first and second partner, and they seemed to be in doubt that I needed the test—you mean you aren’t engaged in high risk sex?  Reeeally?  Then why would you take this?  I also had a funny interaction when I got plan B once, they had the hardest time believing that it was a broken condom instead of no condom.  I had to repeat myself several times.

Comment #90: Ismone  on  04/05  at  11:32 PM

Most vaginal infections are in fact bacterial, and caused by an imbalance in your vaginal chemistry that causes bad to flourish over good bacteria. They do treat it with antibiotics, though doctors also think putting some live culture yogurt in you biz can help.

Candiasis is caused by yeast.  Which is not bacteria, and does not respond to antibacterial treatment.  Yogurt may work to spur beneficial bacterial growth which fights the candida, or it may just be topically soothing.  Doctors will prescribe an antimycotic.

But bacterial infections are a whole separate thing, with different symptoms and a different treatment.  Which is why it’s not a great idea to self-treat this stuff - treatment for one can exacerbate the other, if you don’t guess correctly what exactly you have.

Bottom line, honey is extremely unlikely to cause a bacterial infection, because it’s naturally antimicrobial.  However, the sugars in the honey can feed naturally occurring yeast cultures, causing a yeast infection.  Probably best to just not go sticking random substances into your orifices, all around.

Comment #91: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  11:39 PM

Well, I lived in the city that houses the largest university in the country. That probably influences things.

Comment #92: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/05  at  11:39 PM

I know that the antibacterial properties work because as honey dilutes it produces hydrogen peroxide - does hydrogen peroxide kill sperm?

I’m not 100% on the hydrogen peroxide angle, but I know that lemon juice and other mild acids have never been proven to be effective via douching (apparently it might be possible that acids kill sperm in lab conditions, but by the time you could douche, it would be too late). 

Hydrogen peroxide kills bacteria via oxidation - not sure what effect that sort of thing has on sperm?  And, again, you also come up against the application in the field angle—even if peroxide kills sperm in a petrie dish, that doesn’t mean anything for a normal person trying to use it to prevent pregnancy.

Apparently historical contraceptive preparations used honey as a barrier.

Comment #93: The Opoponax  on  04/05  at  11:44 PM

Honey is also an antimicrobial because it dehydrates the bacteria because of the low water content of the honey.  This would presumably work with other organisms except viruses.

Here’s a suggestion for treating yeast infections with honey:

Honey: Apply honey on the affected areas and leave for about 20 minutes or so. To make things easier you can sit on the toilet seat while you apply it and remain there until the time is up. Then bathe in warm water to remove the honey and dry thoroughly but gently.

Comment #94: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/06  at  12:10 AM

You can cure halitosis by holding a cocktail onion securely in your armpit for the length of time it takes to recite the Preamble to the Constitution twice.

If you leave a teaspoon of honey on your windowsill overnight, a bumblebee will bring you a shiny new penny.

Comment #95: Egnu Cledge  on  04/06  at  12:20 AM

What’s so funny to me is that anti-pill arguments often go into the “have it both ways” bin when it comes to this.  We’re told that the pill was invented by men so they could get laid more, and that it drives down a woman’s sex drive.  Why would those diabolic men push a drug that makes women say “no” more often?

Indeed, since men, especially in a patriarchy, are totally logical and would never do anything that discourages women from having sex with them. That’s why they would never slut-shame, or uphold any kind of double standard suggesting that women ought not to want sex as much as men do.

Comment #96: mythago  on  04/06  at  01:05 AM

OT, but encountered in passing:

the F Word:

Shelley Bridgeman talks to four women about the changing face and shifting perceptions of contemporary feminism.

Comment #97: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/06  at  01:29 AM

honey is anti-microbial because microbes are stupid and don’t know honey is delicious

TAKE THAT, SCIENCE

Comment #98: Ferox  on  04/06  at  03:58 AM

honey is anti-microbial because microbes are stupid and don’t know honey is delicious

No, it’s because microbes are tiny bugs, but bees are BIG bugs. The big bugs scare the little bugs away. True fax. (If the honey doesn’t do it, try honeycomb. With bees. That’ll get those micro little buggers!*)

*Also, that is a very effective form of contraception! I swear you will not get preggers if you stash bees in yer bits.

Comment #99: Bagelsan  on  04/06  at  04:13 AM

I just want to add to the anecdote train that if your sex drive is heavily influenced by ovulation, as mine is, then the Pill will cause an apparent decrease in sex drive.  I’m not convinced by one study that there is no relationship between various formulations of the Pill and decreased sex drive, especially since it doesn’t seem to stretch scientific credibility to posit that if one experiences more sexual desire around ovulation that suppressing ovulation would also suppress this heightened libido. I did find that the tri-phasics to be less problematic in this area compared to mono-phasic pills.

Of course, we cannot underestimate the psychological influence on women’s libido that comes with having less fear of unintended pregnancy. I know that my sex drive was substantially increased during the “Pill” years in which I did not worry about becoming pregnant versus the ones where an unintended pregnancy would have been devastating.

Comment #100: history_mom  on  04/06  at  04:16 AM

Don’t put honey in your vagina under any circumstances.

Well, thanks for ruining my weekend plans, jerkface!

...however, I’ve heard saliva has antimicrobial properties…? smile

Comment #101: Bagelsan  on  04/06  at  04:16 AM

More seriously, I really have been distressed at the amount of pretending-to-be-feminist woo going on lately. Another blog I read (less and less often, now…) had a bunch of panicky woo up about Gardasil recently. It was so far divorced from reality that the woman who wrote the post used the “fact” that Gardasil has been pulled from the US* to support her point about drug companies testing said “dangerous” vaccine on poor women in other countries**, using them as “lab rats” etc.

It was a just a mass of fear-mongering bullshit (I am not kidding, she used the phrases “Big Pharma” and “lab rats” and “helpless pawns” each at least once) but every single reader stumbled over themselves eating up. And don’t tell me that anti-sex fundies wouldn’t love to get clueless female dupes to help them block vaccines that save the lives of those dirty, dirty women who at some point have sex.

*hint: it hasn’t been.

**ie. apparently there is a trial vaccination program going on in India, testing the affordability and logistics of mass vaccinations of women and girls who cannot otherwise afford it. The drug itself is not being tested.

Comment #102: Bagelsan  on  04/06  at  04:43 AM

I love my husband’s reactions to these threads.

ME: Apparently there are people who think you can use honey and vinegar as birth control.

ANDREW: Is that because honey is bad for babies?

Comment #103: Shaenon  on  04/06  at  04:59 AM

I used the diaphragm for about a year.  Hated it.  Just hated it.  I could feel the damn thing every single time I sat down, and it hurt when I peed.  Yes, it was correctly fitted, it was just uncomfortable AND I never, ever really trusted it.  I asked about the cervical cap but was told that my cervix was tipped in a way that made it impossible to fit me, so that was out, and Idiot Ex was one of the “it’s like taking a shower with a raincoat on” men so we couldn’t use condoms.

The Pill, OTOH, was the only method that was comfortable and practical for both of us.  Eventually I had to go off because of my blood pressure, but if I were in a relationship I’d strongly consider it.

As for HRT becoming addictive - whoever this woman is, she’s nuts.  I’m currently taking progesterone, and it’s so NON-addictive that if I didn’t take my lisinopril first thing in the morning I’d forget to take it at all.

Comment #104: Ellid  on  04/06  at  08:32 AM

What do you make of the astounding number of claims by young women who say they got pregnant while using the pill, the shot, the implant, the patch, etc.?  Mysteriously, they all kept their babies.

Check out this discussion to see what I am talking about:

http://www.cafemom.com/group/416/forums/read/11140875/Spin_off_hotel_on_pa_post_Is_it_selfish_to_have_children_when_you_cannot_afford_them?next=1#replies

Comment #105: futureshock  on  04/06  at  08:41 AM

“It’s kind of interesting that Eldridge claims women use the pill out of “superstition,” then goes on to say of the diaphragm, “We are told the diaphragm is not effective, but it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.” Um, how?”

I suppose it could do it in the same way that telling high schoolers that condoms aren’t going to work anyway turns it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If you become convinced that your chosen birth control method is kind of crap but don’t see a reasonable alternative, you may become less diligent in your application of said method (e.g., inconsistent use, failure to read and follow instructions for use, lack of motivation to research the method fully).  Which doesn’t do anything to the “perfect use” stats, but can booger up “typical use” stats from hell to breakfast.

Comment #106: preying mantis  on  04/06  at  08:59 AM

The blatant ignorance regarding the true nature of addiction in that woo article is astounding.  Here is a book which explains what addiction really is:

In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction

http://www.amazon.com/Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Encounters-Addiction/dp/155643880X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270555398&sr=8-2

Comment #107: futureshock  on  04/06  at  09:05 AM

Forgot to mention the author’s name:

Dr. Gabor Mate

Comment #108: futureshock  on  04/06  at  09:06 AM

mythago, the idea that the pill was a male plot to get women’s bodies doesn’t fit with the historical realities.  I thought you were a fan of women liking sex as a theory!  Personally, I use contraception not because I’m the dupe of some man, but I just really like having sex without having babies.  Paternalistic arguments about how women only want effective, easy contraception because men are misleading us just doesn’t reflect women’s realities.

Comment #109: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/06  at  10:28 AM

Which is to say I don’t disagree that some women experience lower libido.  Obviously, the pill isn’t for them.  But the notion that this is a male plot to get us doesn’t really fit the evidence for either how the pill was developed or how sexism works.  It’s very rarely a conspiracy, but more a bunch of individuals making choices.

You seem to think, mythago, that men wanted the pill so they could escape from condom duties.  This isn’t a historical reality.  Men weren’t particularly fond of condoms before the pill, and so the diaphragm was used.  So women still had 100% of the responsibility, and I don’t really see anti-pill hysterics trying to change that.  Eldridge, for instance, is trying to get us back on the diaphragm standard. I don’t see that as encroaching on men—-nor do I see encroaching on men just for the hell of it to be such a great idea. 

Why is the concept of a win-win situation so hard for so many people to swallow?  Why is it so hard to believe that both men and women could find something that works for them?

Comment #110: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/06  at  10:33 AM

(why do so many people pop up with science fail when Amanda posts about science?)

It’s because most people don’t understand science well, because its hard.

Comment #111: atheist  on  04/06  at  10:36 AM

I can’t think of anything more conducive to a full-on bacteriological blow-out than introducing glucose in solution to the warm habitat of the vagina. Don’t put honey in your vagina under any circumstances.

Uh, Chet, did you see that part where they recommended washing the area thoroughly after 20 minutes?(which is only enough time for any bacterial to double their population due to the resource of the honey, which they wouldn’t have to feed on after it’s washed away.)

Actually, honey is a mix of water with a lot of fructose and glucose and isn’t the same as a solution of glucose in H2O:

Most micro-organisms do not grow in honey because of its low water activity of 0.6.

I say that if honey is safe enough to use on open wounds in diabetics, it’s safe enough to use for a mild infection as well.

Comment #112: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/06  at  11:38 AM

What do you make of the astounding number of claims by young women who say they got pregnant while using the pill, the shot, the implant, the patch, etc.?  Mysteriously, they all kept their babies.

I personally know two people who had a hormonal birth control failure—one was on the Pill and one was getting Depo shots.  They were both married women in their 30s, so they both kept their babies (though, sadly, one was born extremely premature (unrelated to the Depo) and did not survive long).  No method of birth control is 100 percent effective 100 percent of the time.

On the other hand, I would not be at all surprised to find out that those women were not, in fact, using their method perfectly 100 percent of the time.

Comment #113: Mnemosyne  on  04/06  at  11:50 AM

There’s frequently sugar in yogurt, there’s another thing I would never under any circumstances introduce into a vagina.

You mean I shouldn’t use the fruit-on-the-bottom kind? What about the strawberry flavor with nutrasweet?

Comment #114: Blume  on  04/06  at  12:00 PM

“You mean I shouldn’t use the fruit-on-the-bottom kind? What about the strawberry flavor with nutrasweet?”

Don’t be stupid.  Everyone knows you’re only supposed to use key lime pie-flavored custard-style yogurt.  It’s pretty widely known that nothing else is considered vagina-compatible.

Comment #115: preying mantis  on  04/06  at  12:31 PM

I don’t use honey in my vagina because it’s a chemical. Bees manufacture honey the same way we might manufacture HFCS. It’s unacceptable. I go to the source and rub my vagina with live bees. Works like a charm.

Comment #116: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/06  at  12:50 PM

Getting back to the addicted thing. By her reasoning, I’m addicted to eating and breathing (I undergo some terrible effects when I stop) so obviously both of those are bad things which we should try to get infants to not start. If she wants to talk about chemicals, we can move onto insulin: diabetics who stop insulin therapy have a very tough time so we should try to find natural alternatives (perhaps yogurt?).

Comment #117: JohnL  on  04/06  at  12:54 PM

I don’t use honey in my vagina because it’s a chemical. Bees manufacture honey the same way we might manufacture HFCS. It’s unacceptable. I go to the source and rub my vagina with live bees. Works like a charm.

I bet you have to wrap your vibrator in barbed wire to get it to do anything for you, too.

It’s like the estrogen version of DickSizeWars.

Comment #118: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/06  at  01:13 PM

The pill doesn’t work for everybody, and neither does any method out there.  Fertility awareness should be limited to being aware of fertility and cycles - it can assist contraceptive efforts, but it is really better suited to conceptive efforts. 

I think the real issue here is that we need more choices and better choices for contraception and for treatment of problems that can arise with menstruation and prevention of STDs.  This includes talking honestly about IUDs, about male-specific options including temporary sterilization, about permanent sterilization without question for people who intend to remain child free, about imaginative ways to get off without penetration, etc. The more people know about themselves and their options, and the more options that there are, the more control people have over their lives.

Comment #119: Ms Kate  on  04/06  at  10:01 PM

I could see how one might treat yeast infections with honey - but only if the goal were to ENCOURAGE the bacteria to eat the sugar and out compete the fungi.

I have found that IF I think I am brewing a yeast infection, I can put a small drop of tea tree oil in a handful of lube and apply that each morning.  I also dosed some mouthwash with tea tree oil when I had a thrush infection after a severe post-strep kidney infection landed me in hospital for 5 days of massive antibiotic infusions.

Comment #120: Ms Kate  on  04/06  at  10:07 PM

So what’s the mode of action going to be? No peroxide is going to be evolved in so short a time, and diluting the honey with vaginal fluids and washwater is going to eliminate its hygroscopy, and its hygroscopy is the only means by which it would have any kind of antimicrobial effect.

You know fucking little about how honey works when used as a wound dressing:

Hydrogen peroxide is formed in a slow-release manner by the enzyme glucose oxidase present in honey. It becomes active only when honey is diluted, requires oxygen to be available for the reaction (thus it may not work under wound dressings, in wound cavities or in the gut), is active only when the acidity of honey is neutralised by body fluids, can be destroyed by the protein-digesting enzymes present in wound fluids, and is destroyed when honey is exposed to heat and light.[67]  Honey chelates and deactivates free iron, which would otherwise catalyze the formation of oxygen free radicals from hydrogen peroxide, leading to inflammation. Also, the antioxidant constituents in honey help clean up oxygen free radicals present.[69]

  C6H12O6 + H2O + O2 → C6H12O7 + H2O2 (glucose oxidase reaction)

When honey is used topically (as, for example, a wound dressing), hydrogen peroxide is produced by dilution of the honey with body fluids. As a result, hydrogen peroxide is released slowly and acts as an antiseptic.

Is your vagina diabetic? No? Then don’t fucking put honey in it, stupid!

You really don’t understand, if honey is safe enough to use on the wounds of diabetics who are notoriously prone to infections, it’s safe enough to use on mucous membranes which have infection of some sort in the first place.

Hell, you can use it INSIDE THE BODY:

Objective(s): The accelerative effect of honey in the wound healing process is known. This effect is related to its specific physical properties of hygroscopicity, hypertonicity, lower pH and complex chemical composition. Because peritoneal healing is a kind of wound healing process we hypothesised that post-operative peritoneal adhesions (PPA) may be reduced with intra-peritoneal honey administration.

And it isn’t just the H2O2 at work as well, folks:

The kinds of antimicrobial substances (inhibines) in honey are discussed. Hydrogen peroxide is not the only inhibine in honey. In fact, inhibines in honey include many other substances. Two important classes of these inhibines are the flavonoids and the phenolic acids. Flavonoids have often been extracted from honey previously. In this study two phenolic acids (caffeic acid and ferulic acid) were extracted from honey for the first time.

I could see how one might treat yeast infections with honey - but only if the goal were to ENCOURAGE the bacteria to eat the sugar and out compete the fungi.

From your keyboard to Google Scholar:

The incidence of Candida infections is escalating worldwide. The serious nature of these infections is compounded by increasing levels of drug resistance. We report that certain honeys have significant antifungal activity against clinical isolates of Candida species. Importantly, the minimum inhibitory concentration of these honeys would be achievable in a clinical setting.

You’ve got a good medical intuition grin

Bees manufacture honey the same way we might manufacture HFCS.

Actually, MP, there are cases where there is truth in your jest as well, at least in PIATOR’s stomping ground:

Toxic honey may also result when bees are proximate to tutu bushes (Coriaria arborea) and the vine hopper insect (Scolypopa australis). Both are found throughout New Zealand. Bees gather honeydew produced by the vine hopper insects feeding on the tutu plant. This introduces the poison tutin into honey.[87]  Only a few areas in New Zealand (Coromandel Peninsula, Eastern Bay of Plenty and the Marlborough Sound) frequently produce toxic honey. Symptoms of tutin poisoning include vomiting, delirium, giddiness, increased excitability, stupor, coma, and violent convulsions. To reduce the risk of tutin poisoning, humans should not eat honey taken from feral hives in the risk areas of New Zealand. Since December 2001, New Zealand beekeepers have been required to reduce the risk of producing toxic honey by closely monitoring tutu, vine hopper, and foraging conditions within 3 km of their apiary.

From the earlier Wiki Honey citation.

Comment #121: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/06  at  10:49 PM

Chet, there’s a difference between perpetuating bad science and claiming that it’s fact and discussing different statements you’ve seen presented as “science” in order to sort through them and discard those that don’t hold up to scrutiny. Thanks for the information. Now I would like you to explain - if explaining is going to be done - why in that case antibiotics are widely perceived to cause raging yeast infections.

Comment #122: purpleshoes  on  04/06  at  11:11 PM

p.s. what sort of idiot doesn’t read the ingredients on their vag-yogurt I do not know. That is pretty much the purpose of Activa plain. Acidophilus and your vagina, from the Mayo Clinic. “Multiple human trials report benefits of L. acidophilus for bacterial vaginosis.”

Comment #123: purpleshoes  on  04/06  at  11:15 PM

There’s basically going to be zero peroxide evolution when honey is introduced to the vaginal cavity, especially if your protocol is to wash it out in 20 minutes. If you want to add peroxide to your vagina, use a solution of peroxide. They sell them, and they don’t come with massive amount of glucose that are going to feed the bad bugs in your cooch!

Did you notice that it mentioned ‘protein-digesting enzymes’(which is another term for proteases, folks) may be present in wounds which would inactivate the peroxidase as well?

As for the sugar, it would only be present ONE DOUBLING CYCLE(20 minutes), and I would presume any ladyparts owner would understand WASHING THOROUGHLY AFTERWARDS so as not to leave fructose and glucose around for the bacteria to use.

Also, it may be that the honey works besides the peroxidase enzyme being activated by body fluids in being antibacterial.

No, that’s definitely what it doesn’t mean. I’m sorry, but it really doesn’t follow at all that because honey works as a dressing for slight wounds, it’s a good idea to treat a yeast infection with it. It’s a complete non sequitor. The two things are absolutely not related in any way.

Yes, if only there was, you know, like a study to see if honey could be of some help with a vaginal fungal infection.

We report that certain honeys have significant antifungal activity against clinical isolates of Candida species. Importantly, the minimum inhibitory concentration of these honeys would be achievable in a clinical setting.

honey works as a dressing for slight wounds

First of all, you should know that the wounds that diabetics get very often can’t be termed as ‘slight’, and that honey has been used to treat bedsores, which are by definition not ‘slight wounds’.

Composition with a base of a therapeutically active compound, in particular honey, for the treatment of wounds.

Honey is just going to feed everything in there, good and bad.

Really, is that why I was able to find this study,

Twelve infants suffering from diaper dermatitis were treated four times daily for 7 days with a mixture containing honey, olive oil and beeswax. The severity of erythema was evaluated on a five-point scale. Three infants had severe erythema and ulceration, four had moderate erythema, and five had moderate erythema with maceration. The initial mean lesion score of 2.91 ± 0.79 declined significantly (p < 0.05) to 2.0 ± 0.98 (day 3), 1.25 ± 0.96 (day 5) and 0.66 ± 0.98 (day 7). Candida albicans was isolated initially from four patients, but from only two patients after treatment(ed). This topical treatment was safe and well-tolerated, and demonstrated clinical and mycological(ed) benefits in the treatment of diaper dermatitis.

Honey for candida infections Google Scholar

Comment #124: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/07  at  01:02 AM

From the earlier Wiki Honey citation.
Comment #123: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 04/06 at 08:49 PM

From the “Medical” section that is marked, “This section is in need of attention from an expert on the subject”?

And you seem to think it’s definitive that a combination of honey, olive oil, and beeswax helps with diaper rash.  Any evidence that it helps more than just the beeswax and olive oil, which are going to be pretty effective in keeping moisture away from the skin?

Comment #125: oldfeminist  on  04/07  at  01:32 AM

And you seem to think it’s definitive that a combination of honey, olive oil, and beeswax helps with diaper rash.

This is more than your typical diaper rash, oldfeminist:

Three infants had severe erythema and ulceration, four had moderate erythema, and five had moderate erythema with maceration.

From the “Medical” section that is marked, “This section is in need of attention from an expert on the subject”?

Did you notice all the studies I’ve linked to demonstrating honey being tested and used in both laboratory and clinical studies?

Here’s another study of honey being used to heal pressure sores(bed sores):

Conclusion: By week 5, PUSH tool scores showed that healing among subjects using a honey dressing was approximately 4 times the rate of healing in the comparison group. The use of a honey dressing is effective and practical.

Comment #126: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/07  at  02:14 AM

—— ” complete with characterizing women on it as hapless victims who don’t have control over their lives.  ” ——

No kidding?! I never coulda seen that coming.

Jeezus. This is the SAME bullshit characterization they’ve been using on sex workers for decades. People don’t bother to read up on those presenting these arguments about women being “VULNERABLE” and if they did, they could have seen this coming ages ago. They are coming for abortion next, and the women - certain feminists - who argue that privacy is detrimental to women because it allows for men to obsure abuse - those are the ones to watch out for. Really.

Feminist Woo is EVERYWHERE. Much of the theory of “social construction” is pure woo, - really bad woo that ends up getting women killed.

Comment #127: FW  on  04/07  at  05:16 AM

Here’s another study of honey being used to heal pressure sores(bed sores):

  Conclusion: By week 5, PUSH tool scores showed that healing among subjects using a honey dressing was approximately 4 times the rate of healing in the comparison group. The use of a honey dressing is effective and practical.

Comment #129: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 04/07 at 12:14 AM

These aren’t studies of honey used as a douche and then rinsed off after two hours. 

Is it worth looking into what it is about honey that helps rate of healing in this study?  Certainly.  Does it prove anything about using honey in or on your ladyparts?  No.

I also did a check to see how often ethoxy-diaminoacridine plus nitrofurazone dressings are used in treating pressure sores.  The only hits I got were references to this study; specifying “-honey” in the search resulted in the kind of hits you get where the words are there but very widely spaced and not related.  Nitrofurazone apparently used to be used a lot on horses, but not so much any more.

So maybe this study is like comparing honey to Coca-Cola.

Comment #128: oldfeminist  on  04/07  at  03:52 PM

Chet,

If any woman wants your opinion on what to put in/on her ladybits, she’ll ask for it.

Jesus Christ on a cracker.

Comment #129: Ismone  on  04/07  at  05:27 PM

Ismone: I don’t personally have a problem with men respectfully weighing in on good sciences vs. bad science, no matter how many lady bits are involved. YMMV

Comment #130: Bagelsan  on  04/07  at  05:50 PM

Bagelsan,

If he was being respectful, instead of randomly throwing out analyses of some (but not all) of the chemical properties of honey, and insisting that he was correct that honey is something that should never, ever go in a vadge, I would be inclined to agree with you.

Or if he cited to a definitive honey-in-vadge study.

But other than that, he isn’t engaging in science, or respect, he’s just using partial information to tell other people that they are wrong wrong wrong, and not acknowledging that any fact could develop, or any property of honey could come into play, that would change the issue.

I’ve found Dark Avenger’s comments on the subject to be much better informed, and s/he isn’t claiming some absolute answer to the honey-in-vadge question.

Comment #131: Ismone  on  04/07  at  05:59 PM

These aren’t studies of honey used as a douche and then rinsed off after two hours..

Which isn’t what the regime I mentiod said to do, you can go up the thread and see for yourself.


Does it prove anything about using honey in or on your ladyparts?  No.

I never said that it did, you were belittling honey for being used to treat ‘diaper rash’, and pressure sores are a lot more difficult to treat with antibiotics, etc.

I have demonstrated that it is a very powerful medicine for certain infections that are notoriously difficult to treat, it has demonstrably few side effects.

That, along with my earlier excerpt of a study that found that honey could in clinical conditions demonstrate the same anti-fungal activity demonstrated with lab studies, is my case, not some imaginary jump from bed sores to mycelogical vaginitis in one fell swoop.

Also, FYI, there are plenty of testimonials to the use of honey on ladyparts for various ailments out on the internets.  There is perhaps some percentage that reflect a placebo effect at work, but I was able to find a legion of comments dealing with using honey for ladypart problems.  If you have an argument, it’s with them, not me. 

I have no ladyparts or know of anyone who has used honey on their ladyparts, I have no investment in any companies that package honey for mendicinal uses.

I also did a check to see how often ethoxy-diaminoacridine plus nitrofurazone dressings are used in treating pressure sores.  The only hits I got were references to this study; specifying “-honey” in the search resulted in the kind of hits you get where the words are there but very widely spaced and not related.  Nitrofurazone apparently used to be used a lot on horses, but not so much any more.

They also use granulated sugar in treating pressure sores as well.

Nitrofurazone is a carcinogen.

Comment #132: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/07  at  06:01 PM

As Ellid pointed out, most people don’t have a problem with remembering to take their meds that actually are addictive.  Once upon a time when I was prescribed Xanax, my focus was always on how long until my next scheduled dose, and I’ve heard others say that they didn’t need a watch to know when it was time to take it.  Back when I was taking the Pill, I had plenty of paranoia due to not being able to remember to take it at the same time every day.  Never ever had the urge to take extra ones to make me feel better (Well, other than wondering if it would make EC by taking multiple ones, but there’s a difference between feeling better by assuaging paranoia and feeling better by satisfying an addiction.)  If it actually were addictive, it’d be easier to take it regularly, and the inserts all make it seem like taking it at the same time every day is important.

Comment #133: Djinna  on  04/07  at  09:45 PM

I never said that it did, you were belittling honey for being used to treat ‘diaper rash’, and pressure sores are a lot more difficult to treat with antibiotics, etc.
Comment #135: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 04/07 at 04:01 PM

You’ve incorrectly inferred that I was belittling it for being used for diaper rash.  I don’t belittle diaper rash.  But it’s not the same condition as vaginal yeast. 

My argument is very specific—I do not believe studies of topical application of honey to the skin indicates that introduction of honey into the vagina is a good idea.

[oldfeminist] These aren’t studies of honey used as a douche and then rinsed off after two hours..

[Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein]  Which isn’t what the regime I mentiod said to do, you can go up the thread and see for yourself.

Okay, so you mean the regime of applying it to the affected parts and leaving it there?  This was questioned earlier as a possible problem for the vagina because it might feed other beasties within.

I’m just saying that what I can gather of the studies you posted links to (some of which are behind a paywall) don’t say it is a good idea to use honey to combat a vaginal yeast infection.  They talk about its action against Candida spp. in vitro.

Comment #134: oldfeminist  on  04/07  at  11:23 PM

[Sorry, lost the end of the sentence in editing:]

They talk about its action against Candida spp. in vitro or on skin.

Comment #135: oldfeminist  on  04/07  at  11:24 PM

My argument is very specific—I do not believe studies of topical application of honey to the skin indicates that introduction of honey into the vagina is a good idea.

Not just skin but wounds and sores, which some might argue are at least as sensitive if not more so than the epidermal layer of the vagina.

Anyhoo, read this and prepare to have your preconceptions shattered:

If they were prepared to test the honey cream, they were asked to take note what clinical effects the honey cream precisely produced and to report this to the GP. They were advised to insert a small daub of cream in their vagina every evening and this for at least a week. Of each of these women, their GP took a vaginal smear before the honey-cure was started. The smears were colored, and it was determined microscopically whether or not the vaginal flora was deviant (see Table A4.2). At the same time the
inflammatory infiltration in the smears was examined. The most common microscopic diagnoses were Bacterial Vaginosis (BV) and Candida, in 12 and 11 cases respectively.

Only two women had a completely normal flora. Inflammatory infiltration was found in eight smears.

A check-up smear, administered after the honey cream treatment, was available with 19 of the 30 women. Comparing the original smear with the check-up smear allowed us to chart the effect of the honey cream on the vaginal flora and on the inflammatory infiltration. From one woman suffering from Candida vaginitis, we had several
smears from the month before the honey cream treatment. We also had smears that she had taken during the monthly cycle in which the honey cream was used. In this series of smears we could determine very precisely
what the effect of honey cream was on the fungal growth.

Okay, so you mean the regime of applying it to the affected parts and leaving it there?  This was questioned earlier as a possible problem for the vagina because it might feed other beasties within.

Please go back up this thread and verify for yourself that I suggested a 20-minute topical treatment, and what I said about rinsing it off to keep from feeding said beasties within.

I’m just saying that what I can gather of the studies you posted links to (some of which are behind a paywall) don’t say it is a good idea to use honey to combat a vaginal yeast infection.  They talk about its action against Candida spp. in vitro or on skin.

See above.

Comment #136: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/08  at  12:20 AM

I asked her about women coming off of hormone treatments and how they could get, perhaps, addicted to them and she was very adamant that women do not get addicted to these drugs. I couldn’t believe her contention. These are powerful chemicals, and people have the potential to get addicted to powerful chemicals. Many women describe experiences coming off the Pill that sound like addiction.

as;kdjhaskldjhaskjdh cite a fucking source

This makes no logical sense. It’s not a foreign chemical. It’s not even flooding your body with excessive levels of things it already produces. It’s maintaining your hormones at the level they are at a different time of month. Get some science.

Comment #137: Rebecca  on  04/08  at  01:58 AM

But other than that, he isn’t engaging in science, or respect, he’s just using partial information to tell other people that they are wrong wrong wrong

Well, in all fairness he is mostly telling Dark Avenger (a dude, to the best of my knowledge?) that he and his science are “wrong wrong wrong” instead of dumping on women who like to know their honey biblically. smile

The contention is mostly that it’s *all* partial information, and that caution may be advised when sticking vagina-untested foods into non-mouth orifices.

Also, @comment #139: that’s not the same proposed treatment that you mention, though. It sounds like the cream was not washed off after 20 minutes, but was in fact left there. (I can’t open the link, though—perhaps the actual article is more mindblowing?)

Comment #138: Bagelsan  on  04/08  at  02:28 AM

Also, FYI, there are plenty of testimonials to the use of honey on ladyparts for various ailments out on the internets.  There is perhaps some percentage that reflect a placebo effect at work, but I was able to find a legion of comments dealing with using honey for ladypart problems.  If you have an argument, it’s with them, not me.

Yes, I have a problem with them too. But more with how this is framed; you can’t just *eyeball* a placebo effect! It’s not like you can establish a p-value with anecdata. Also, if we’re playing “I found it on the internet” then my Google battle indicates that “honey in vaginas” with 1,270,000 hits is far less effective than “fire in vaginas” with 3,480,000 hits. Clearly we should burn those little yeast fuckers out! ;p

Comment #139: Bagelsan  on  04/08  at  02:37 AM

Well, Bagelsan, it’s a PDF file, that might be why you can’t open it.

Yes, I have a problem with them too. But more with how this is framed; you can’t just *eyeball* a placebo effect! It’s not like you can establish a p-value with anecdata. Also, if we’re playing “I found it on the internet” then my Google battle indicates that “honey in vaginas” with 1,270,000 hits is far less effective than “fire in vaginas” with 3,480,000 hits. Clearly we should burn those little yeast fuckers out! ;p

No, but the point is that all the testimonials saying it works can’t be all due to the placebo effect.

Treating yeast infection with honey without quotes yields 324,000 results here.

Mesitran study I cited earlier here.

Comment #140: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/08  at  10:33 AM

Bagelsan, I’m sending you the PDF so you can judge for yourself.

Comment #141: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/08  at  12:32 PM

Do you just have a URL for it or something? Or is it on Pubmed? I don’t have an anon email at the moment…

Comment #142: Bagelsan  on  04/08  at  07:24 PM

I’m at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), drop me a line, I already used the Pandagon e-mail to give it to you,  but you might not have checked the addy you are registered with here yet.

Comment #143: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/08  at  09:56 PM

[oldfeminist] Okay, so you mean the regime of applying it to the affected parts and leaving it there?  This was questioned earlier as a possible problem for the vagina because it might feed other beasties within.

[Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein] Please go back up this thread and verify for yourself that I suggested a 20-minute topical treatment, and what I said about rinsing it off to keep from feeding said beasties within.
Comment #139: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 04/07 at 10:20 PM

But a vagina is not a bedsore.  And applying honey to exposed skin, even if it’s infected skin, isn’t the same as introducing it into the vagina.

See, I already questioned that:

These aren’t studies of honey used as a douche and then rinsed off after two hours. Comment #131: oldfeminist on 04/07 at 01:52 PM

Then you said “go back and read” without saying what I was missing.  So I fucking bothered to go back and look up the links you provided, some of which were about studies of more long-term use, not 2 hours and rinse off, and thought that was what you meant. 

Then you complain again no no no it’s the two-hour thing.  Le sigh.

So we come full circle.  But at least now you have actually specified what you’re claiming.  Because I have problems with that.  Had problems back the first time I commented.

Because what you lack is a link to a specific study that supports two-hour (or any-hour) use of honey in the vagina for yeast. 

See, this bright idea about douching it out after two hours (I like how you keep avoiding that word, because it’s a bad thing, but c’mon, rinsing out the vagina is in fact a douche) might be useful, but at this point it is just an idea, something cobbled together that you think must make sense. 

Thing is, it might be as great as peanut butter and jelly, or as bad as mustard and lingonberry. 

I am willing to bite into an M&L;sandwich and make a face and determine “experiment over, not good.”

I think it’s less of a good idea to hand out medical advice that can actually make someone’s condition worse.  Because it’s not just “oh it will be a little worse.”  Someone who’s immunocompromised, someone who’s got something dangerous lurking around waiting for a nice honey meal, someone who’s already on the edge of illness, in short, someone who’s not blessedly able and well aside from a bit of an imbalance of vaginal flora, might suffer greatly from such well-meaning but untested advice.

Comment #144: oldfeminist  on  04/10  at  01:10 PM

[T]he point is that all the testimonials saying it works can’t be all due to the placebo effect.
Comment #143: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 04/08 at 08:33 AM

Wow.  Yes, it can.

Treating yeast infection with honey without quotes yields 324,000 results here.

Sure, but are they all vaginal yeast?  Add “vaginal” to the google search terms and that gives approximately 97,000 hits instead.

And you seem to assume all these hits are testimonials from individual persons.  Not links to articles embedded in a page (you know, like articles titled “Treating yeast infection with honey” or any combination of some of those words with other words in the page.

Medical research usually isn’t done by google search.

Mesitran study I cited earlier here.

Maybe there’s something wrong with my browser.  I get a blank page at http://www.klinion.nl/files/files/Mesitran

The pages I’ve found using the unquoted words

honey vagina mesitran

don’t address treating vaginal yeast.  The closest I got was a study using it in fertility treatments.

Comment #145: oldfeminist  on  04/10  at  01:25 PM

Ah, found it from using google search of mesitran vaginal with the site klinion.nl:

Link.

The writeup starts with some talk about honey killing yeast fungus and all kinds of wonderful stuff.  But on page one:

The experiments described here are in vitro: In
vivo, everything can of course be quite different.

Good; they know the difference.

So they tell 30 women that they can be cured with this Mesitran.  Give it to all 30. Then they look at smears from 19 of them.  Uh, what.  Where did the other 11 go?  Huh.  Maybe it didn’t work for them so their results were “disappeared.”  That’s a tactic Big Pharma uses; I don’t think Big Altmed has any greater propensity to honesty.  Money is money, fame is fame, glory is glory.

So.  First, why all the passive voice about the vaginal smears?  They say the women themselves took them.  This isn’t really very clinical.

Plus there’s inaccurate language:  ‘In the case of this woman, we could demonstrate in the vaginal smears, how the honey cream strongly influenced her fungal growth.”  No.  In the case of the woman described, you only saw that fungal growth slowed immensely.  You cannot definitely conclude that the Mesitran is the cause. 

And the unanswered question, again,  is do you have such specific data for more than this one woman?  If so, I’m going to bet that the other women’s data isn’t so wonderful.  Handpick your data and your study is no longer a study.

Look, if some well-designed, double-blind studies come along, and show Mesitran is good for vaginal candidiasis, great! 

But this particular study doesn’t show jack shit about honey.  Mesitran has honey plus other things in it and I can’t seem to find in the literature what those other things are.  I’m on a small-screen laptop right now so it’s difficult to browse the PDFs from their site so I could well have missed something among the pictures of horrific “before” and much nicer “after” photos.  By the way, they don’t seem to say if there were other things being done for the patients with the horrible “before” pictures.  My guess is that oral antibiotics were in play.

So.  This isn’t really even good enough to be called a study.  An investigation, maybe.

Comment #146: oldfeminist  on  04/10  at  02:51 PM

Sure, but are they all vaginal yeast?  Add “vaginal” to the google search terms and that gives approximately 97,000 hits instead.

Since most yeast infections, with the possible exception of men and their manlyparts, are internal, I would say that most of them would likely be vaginal.

oldfeminist, the study I found is impossible to link to apparently, but I managed to download the PDF file, and I invite you to e-mail me so that I can e-mail it to you.

A check-up smear, administered after the honey cream treatment, was available with 19 of the 30 women.<i>

I read that to mean that there were 19 of the women who had a check up smear after the honey cream treatment.

Conclusion L-Mesitran® honey cream provides interesting perspectives for women with candidiasis. Pregnant and nursing women are an interesting target group for this feather light treatment. We also see possibilities to control
recidivating candidiasis (with women susceptible to it). From our research we can conclude that vaginal cytology is ideal to ‘visualize’ the effect of honey cream: the smears showed obvious effects after use.


<i>By the way, they don’t seem to say if there were other things being done for the patients with the horrible “before” pictures.  My guess is that oral antibiotics were in play.

Of thirty women that visited their GP because of suspected vaginitis, the complaints were first sorted out

Yes, because the first thing a GP would do with suspected vaginitis would be to order oral antibiotics without doing a culture or having anything more to do with determining what organism is responsible for the symptoms in the first place.

I’m sorry, but the common sense reading of this passage is that they had these symptoms and were given the wound healing cream to see if it would help them.

Medical research usually isn’t done by google search.

I didn’t say that what I was doing is medical research here btw, do you always act this way when presented with an opposing viewpoint, attribute to your opponent what he/she never said in the first place?

That you have a geranium in your cranium on this subject is apparent from the number and quality of your objections to what I’ve written here.

Comment #147: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/10  at  11:07 PM

Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein, you are mixing up my comments, I suppose not intentionally, but it’s making it hard to respond.  I don’t know if it’s just that you are having difficulty with this particular discussion format online, or you’re not really familiar with what makes a good study versus a good-looking bullshit study and so you don’t understand my comments.

The oral antibiotics comment is specifically about the PDF brochure for L-Mesitran which shows a lot of gory “before” pictures and much better “after” pictures, without giving any information on any other treatment the people were getting.  Go look for yourself.  It’s the kind of literature that altmed bullshitters use, frankly.  Something is claimed to cure cancer!  Because 14 out of 20 people who took it overcame their cancer!  But no one mentions that those people also had chemo or radiation or surgery.  It was the bee eyelashes that did it!

This is not directly related to the comment about the 31 no wait 19 women who got treatment with L-Mesitran for their vaginal yeast infections.

My point being that the L-Mesitran literature is very evasive about what it actually does.  It does not refer to any actual double-blind studies of its action, because there are none.  It doesn’t tell you what’s in it besides the honey.  (And then weirdly says it works a lot better than plain honey!)  So just glopping some Sue Bee in there isn’t as good as honey plus…what?  They never tell us.  So we can’t possibly judge the effectiveness of honey itself on vaginal yeast infections.

The only real solid tests of honey and candida yeast are done in vitro.  That’s in glass.  That’s not on a patient.

Lots of yeast infection isn’t vaginal.  Really.  It likes all kinds of mucous membranes; babies get it and it’s called thrush.  AIDS and other immunocompromised patients can die from it.

I haven’t attributed anything to you that you haven’t said.  I have attributed to the L-Mesitran sellers what they have said; the people who wrote the study you failed to link to, what they said; other study authors, what they said.

When presented with “an opposing viewpoint”?  Again with the “everyone has an opinion and they’re all equally valid” crap.  You mean when presented with claims about altmeddery.  Yes, I do generally act this way when someone’s spreading woo.  I check for actual studies of the actual claim being made, not similar claims, and try to use my knowledge of the scientific method to figure out whether the claim is sensible.

Which is exactly the topic of Amanda’s post.

In response, you claim I have a geranium in my cranium?  How quaint.  How cute.  How not answering any of my specific objections.  Thanks for the ad feminam.

Comment #148: oldfeminist  on  04/11  at  05:31 PM

Forgot to mention:

“oldfeminist, the study I found is impossible to link to apparently, but I managed to download the PDF file, and I invite you to e-mail me so that I can e-mail it to you. “

I linked something that had what you quoted in it in my comment at 149.  I read the whole thing, very carefully.  It’s not saying what you seem to think it’s saying.

Comment #149: oldfeminist  on  04/11  at  05:40 PM

The oral antibiotics comment is specifically about the PDF brochure for L-Mesitran which shows a lot of gory “before” pictures and much better “after” pictures, without giving any information on any other treatment the people were getting.

L-Mesitran® was applied by us, on women with vaginitis complaints. It is a fact that vaginal infections can mean a great deal of misery for the woman concerned and that even marriages can fail because of it.15 The common treatment for vaginitis is either an antibiotics cure or an anti fungus remedy.

They had complaints, which would mean that there would be no diagnostic basis to administer oral antibiotics in the first place.

It’s the kind of literature that altmed bullshitters use, frankly.  Something is claimed to cure cancer!  Because 14 out of 20 people who took it overcame their cancer!  But no one mentions that those people also had chemo or radiation or surgery.  It was the bee eyelashes that did it

Yes, because using honey to treat infections is so altmed that you have to go to Mexico to have it done, like Laetrile treatments.

Again, I’ll quote from their conclusion so that people can see what you’re talking about:

Conclusion L-Mesitran® honey cream provides interesting perspectives for women with candidiasis.

Interesting perspectives!  Call out the FDA, this is nothing but patent medicine in a new form, and the people behind L-Mesitran nothing more than toadstool millionaires.

My point being that the L-Mesitran literature is very evasive about what it actually does.  It does not refer to any actual double-blind studies of its action, because there are none.  It doesn’t tell you what’s in it besides the honey.  (And then weirdly says it works a lot better than plain honey!) So just glopping some Sue Bee in there isn’t as good as honey plus…what?  They never tell us.  So we can’t possibly judge the effectiveness of honey itself on vaginal yeast infections.

Uhm, did you read the preface?

The only real solid tests of honey and candida yeast are done in vitro.  That’s in glass.  That’s not on a patient.

Various publications have already shown that honey strengthens the immune system, slows down infections, works as an antioxidant and kills bacteria and even some types of fungi 3-11 Every housewife can draw this
conclusion herself: She never sees bacteria-or fungus growth in her honey jar, but her home made jelly easily goes mouldy. Sugar also has a preventing effect on bacteria growth, but the research by Cooper et al. 12,13 clearly proves that sugar is five times less anti-bacterial than honey (Manuka and other honey).

Didja see the 3-11 that I italicized?  Them is references, and of course, some substance that kills some type of fungi wouldn’t be a suitable candidate for Candida, which is only a yeast which is a type of fungus.


The only real solid tests of honey and candida yeast are done in vitro.  That’s in glass.  That’s not on a patient.

Yes, because you’ve totally discredited the in vivo study that the paper was about.

When presented with “an opposing viewpoint”?  Again with the “everyone has an opinion and they’re all equally valid” crap.  You mean when presented with claims about altmeddery.  Yes, I do generally act this way when someone’s spreading woo.  I check for actual studies of the actual claim being made, not similar claims, and try to use my knowledge of the scientific method to figure out whether the claim is sensible.

Look, I have a degree in biology and another in Medical Science, and your implication that you use your ‘knowledge of the scientific method’ to look for the difference between woo and reason is risible.

I read the whole thing, very carefully.

I respectfully beg to differ.

Comment #150: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/11  at  06:35 PM

The only real solid tests of honey and candida yeast are done in vitro.  That’s in glass.  That’s not on a patient.

Yes, because you’ve totally discredited the in vivo study that the paper was about.

The in vivo study the paper was about had no controls.  The ingredients of L-Mesitran are not disclosed.  You cannot say anything about in vivo use of honey for vaginal yeast given that information.

I’m on a small-screen laptop right now so it’s difficult to browse the PDFs from their site so I could well have missed something among the pictures of horrific “before” and much nicer “after” photos.

May not have been clear enough, even though I said later

The oral antibiotics comment is specifically about the PDF brochure for L-Mesitran which shows a lot of gory “before” pictures and much better “after” pictures, without giving any information on any other treatment the people were getting.  Go look for yourself.

So here is a specific link to the information I could find on the composition of L-Mesitran.  Which is incomplete.  Read it!

You keep assuming that, because it kills fungus, even Candida, in some places, it will kill it in others.  And that there will be no bad side-effects.  I discussed all of this.  You ignored it.  Chet discussed all this before I did.  You ignored it.

You keep harping on how it’s an obvious conclusion.  Even a housewife could figure it out, says the study you quoted!  Ptui.

Your degree is only as good as the use you make of it.  It seems like you haven’t fully investigated this and are getting defensive, rather than just admitting there’s no good studies, only one crappy one, of vaginal use of honey for yeast infection.

If anyone else tried to prove something to you with only one study you’d laugh at them.  Do yourself a favor and stop depending on this one, with its fawning thanks to the grandfather of Mesitran in the acknowledgements and flowery language masking its paucity of data.  What little there is is preliminary at best.

Look, I said, way up there, the other related existing studies suggest it might be useful to investigate this further.  But to claim that the study above proves that honey is good for a vaginal yeast infection?  Totally indefensible.  And you should know it.

Comment #151: oldfeminist  on  04/11  at  11:05 PM

Damn, these links don’t seem to work when embedded.

The link to the PDF of the study we both couldn’t seem to link to:
http://www.klinion.nl/files/files/Mesitran article Vaginal use Mesitran.pdf

The link to the PDF of the Mesitran information I couldn’t link to:
http://www.l-mesitran.com/sites/l-mesitran.com/files/D-045-B-2 Brochure Triticum 2009.pdf

Let’s see if they come through unscathed.  Then you can see that I indeed did go to the study you mentioned.  And you can go look at the L-Mesitran product description.  If this second link doesn’t work, it’s the first one on this page:
http://www.l-mesitran.com/downloads

Comment #152: oldfeminist  on  04/11  at  11:34 PM

Okay, tinyurl to the rescue:

http://tinyurl.com/y9uqv68
http://tinyurl.com/ya7srv7

Comment #153: oldfeminist  on  04/11  at  11:37 PM

The ingredients of L-Mesitran are not disclosed.

The functioning of L-Mesitran® is possibly partly due to the adding of Lanoline.14 Already in ancient times, grease or oil was added to honey in order to increase its effect.

Well, it sounds like it contains Lanoline, which should be some sort of oil or fatty substance.

Also, having access to teh Internets, you could find out yourself.

Great Gizoogle, please find the ingredients of L-Mesitran:

Honey
The benefits of honey are well explained in the literature and are mainly the antibacterial properties and the moist healing environment it creates. It is also responsible for the anti scarring abilities as well as the fact that honey stimulates the inflammatory cytokine production from monocytes

Medilan
The lanolin used in L-Mesitran® is Medilan®, this is a medical grade lanolin, FDA approved low allergic. It is an excellent skin emollient, it kills Staf. Aureus and has growth factor mimicking properties. It also protects the surrounding skin from maceration damage

Cod Liver oil
The retinol in cod liver oil stimulates epidermal layer growth

Sun flower oil
Sun flower oil scavenges the free oxygen radicals

Calendula (Mari gold)
Mari Gold is a well known inflammatory product in wound care

Aloe Vera
Aloe Vera has wound healing properties well described in the literature. It also has gelling properties when absorbing excess wound fluids

Vit E and C
These antioxidants have wound healing properties

Zinc Oxide
Zinc Oxide is used as an epidermal growth factor mimicker

Your link went to a 404 file, darling.  I think one thing we can both agree on is that getting info about this companies products from their website is fraught with difficulties.

You keep assuming that, because it kills fungus, even Candida, in some places, it will kill it in others.  And that there will be no bad side-effects.  I discussed all of this.  You ignored it.  Chet discussed all this before I did.  You ignored it.

Well, yes, I’ve studied mycology,  and I know more about the difficulties about treating fungal disease than the average bear, and all you share in common with Chet is arm waving that somehow the effects of honey observed in wound healing are irrelevant when talking about treating a case of a yeast infection because the vagina is such a different tissue than the rest of the body.

Then there’s this:

The current prevalence of antibiotic-resistant microbial species has led to a re-evaluation of the therapeutic use of ancient remedies, including honey and starch. Both natural products have no adverse effects on tissues, so they can be safely used on wounds and inserted into cavities and sinuses to clear infection.

But hey, why don’t you write those fine folks and tell them they’re wasting their degrees as well.

Let me quote someone I don’t know about the approach taken by Chet that seems to describe what you’re doing as well.

But other than that, he isn’t engaging in science, or respect, he’s just using partial information to tell other people that they are wrong wrong wrong, and not acknowledging that any fact could develop, or any property of honey could come into play, that would change the issue.

I’ve found Dark Avenger’s comments on the subject to be much better informed, and s/he isn’t claiming some absolute answer to the honey-in-vadge question.

(cont)

Comment #154: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/12  at  12:09 AM

You keep harping on how it’s an obvious conclusion.  Even a housewife could figure it out, says the study you quoted!  Ptui.

You keep JAQ about “What if the women in the study used oral antibiotics before treatment?”  “How do we know what’s in it”  “You’re just saying that get the Sue Bee out and everything will be okay.”

In the first case, the paper wouldn’t have been submitted for publication, because that’s one question a referee would ask the authors if the paper left some doubt on that issue as your reading of it would imply.

Your degree is only as good as the use you make of it.  It seems like you haven’t fully investigated this and are getting defensive, rather than just admitting there’s no good studies, only one crappy one, of vaginal use of honey for yeast infection.

yep, I have nothing else to back up my pathetic assertions except for stuff like this:

Objective: To evaluate the possible role of honey, olive oil and beeswax in the treatment of skin fungal infections. Patients and methods: Thirty-seven patients with pityriasis versicolor, tinea cruris, tinea corporis and tinea faciei were studied. After clinical evaluation of redness, scaling, pruritis and burning/pain sensation and mycological assessment, honey mixture containing honey, olive oil and beeswax (1:1:1) was applied to the lesions three times daily for a maximum of 4 weeks. Results: Clinical response was obtained in 86% of patients with pityriasis versicolor, 78% of patients with tinea cruris and in 75% of patients with tinea corporis. Mycological cure was obtained in 75, 71 and 62% of patients with PV, tinea cruris and tinea corporis, respectively. The patient with tinea faciei showed clinical and mycological cure 3 weeks after commencement of therapy. Conclusion: Honey mixture may have place in the management of these skin conditions and rigorous, controlled trials are justified.


I haven’t been saying, “Ladieeeeeeeeees, when you get a yeast infection, smear Sue Bee over your ladyparts and you’ll be all better”.

Does the need for better clinical trials exist?  Yes.

Why aren’t they made? 

Who would make money from honey being used to treat vaginal candida?  Nobody except the beekeepers, perhaps.

If anyone else tried to prove something to you with only one study you’d laugh at them.  Do yourself a favor and stop depending on this one, with its fawning thanks to the grandfather of Mesitran in the acknowledgements and flowery language masking its paucity of data.  What little there is is preliminary at best.

I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you needed a bibliography worthy of a PhD dissertation to change your mind about the subject, as if I’ve only been waving around the one article from the beginning here.

Look, I said, way up there, the other related existing studies suggest it might be useful to investigate this further.  But to claim that the study above proves that honey is good for a vaginal yeast infection?  Totally indefensible.  And you should know it.

Except that the conclusion of the paper doesn’t come to that conclusion, and neither do I.

I quit this conversation, I would only suggest you bring up the subject with your gynecologist next time and see what he/she says about the subject, in fact anyone with any doubts should research it and do their own determination on whether they’d benefit from honey on their ladyparts when they have a yeast infection.


The right to choose, that’s what it’s all about, right?  grin

Comment #155: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/12  at  12:24 AM

all you share in common with Chet is arm waving that somehow the effects of honey observed in wound healing are irrelevant when talking about treating a case of a yeast infection because the vagina is such a different tissue than the rest of the body.

I have never said it’s irrelevant.  i have repeatedly said that it’s possibly a good lead.

I have repeatedly also said that the success of topical use doesn’t:

(1) prove effectiveness inside the vagina
(2) prove safety inside the vagina.

Do you agree?  If not, why not?

“The current prevalence of antibiotic-resistant microbial species has led to a re-evaluation of the therapeutic use of ancient remedies, including honey and starch. Both natural products have no adverse effects on tissues, so they can be safely used on wounds and inserted into cavities and sinuses to clear infection.”

“No adverse effects on tissues” is not the same as “no adverse effects on vaginal flora.”

Plus, this is a veterinary study.  Dead dogs and cows are a little different from dead humans.

You keep JAQ about “What if the women in the study used oral antibiotics before treatment?” “How do we know what’s in it” “You’re just saying that get the Sue Bee out and everything will be okay.”
Comment #158: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 04/11 at 10:24 PM

Oh LOL, you used my own weapon against me!  Except I’m not “just asking questions.”  I’m asking the same questions over and over and you’re not answering them.

1.  What if the women in the study used oral antibiotics before treatment?

Well, actually, they didn’t report on this, so we don’t know.  But in fact, you keep misattributing this statement.  The question I raised about oral antibiotics was in response to the second PDF I pointed to, the one where the people who manufacture and sell L-Mesitran show you scary before and less-scary after pictures of people who were treated with L-Mesitran.  AND MAYBE OTHER THINGS BUT THEY DON’T FUCKING SAY.

2.  How do we know what’s in it?

As you finally found, L-Mesitran contains:
Honey
Medilan
Cod Liver oil
Sun flower oil
Calendula (Mari gold)
Aloe Vera
Vit E and C
Zinc Oxide

And maybe other things; the list doesn’t say.

Which of these is the active ingredient in the not-even-proven “cure” of yeast?  What happened to the other 11 patients—did they stop responding because they couldn’t be bothered, because the doctor who told them it would work for their yeast was wrong, it didn’t, and they didn’t want to go to that doctor again?

Comment #156: oldfeminist  on  04/12  at  12:37 PM

In the first case, the paper wouldn’t have been submitted for publication, because that’s one question a referee would ask the authors if the paper left some doubt on that issue as your reading of it would imply.

And yet that information isn’t in the paper, where it should be.  The referees of this publication apparently don’t need that information.  What publication is it again?

3.  You’re just saying that get the Sue Bee out and everything will be okay.
No, I’m not.  You are saying a lot of things.  None of them add up to “honey in the vagina is safe and effective.”

I have nothing else to back up my pathetic assertions except for stuff like this:

  Objective: To evaluate the possible role of honey, olive oil and beeswax in the treatment of skin fungal infections.

Stop right there. 

SKIN fungal infections.  Not vaginal.

There’s lots of things I put on my skin that I don’t and wouldn’t put in my vagina.  They aren’t the same.

I haven’t been saying, “Ladieeeeeeeeees, when you get a yeast infection, smear Sue Bee over your ladyparts and you’ll be all better”.

Does the need for better clinical trials exist?  Yes.

Thank FSM you’ve finally admitted it.

Why aren’t they made?

Who would make money from honey being used to treat vaginal candida?  Nobody except the beekeepers, perhaps.

Well, the manufacturers of [TADA] L-Mesitran would.

Interesting, though, that your argument here takes as its premiss that the conclusion isn’t proven.  You’re arguing a form of ad misericordiam now, that it would be proven already if there were big money in honey cures.  The lack of proof because the medical community is supposedly mercenary doesn’t mean we don’t need proof or that we can assume it’s proven.

Doesn’t matter why the proof isn’t there.  It isn’t there.  We cannot come to a conclusion out of pity for the poor sad women who could cure their yeast infections if only Big Pharma would study something that’s cheap.

I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you needed a bibliography worthy of a PhD dissertation to change your mind about the subject, as if I’ve only been waving around the one article from the beginning here.

I need more than one article.  Especially not this one, very flawed “study.”  With no controls, no blinding. 

You also admit that L-Mesitran has other components.  Which, unless one tests with and without those other components, might be what’s helping kill the yeast infection.  Rather than the honey.

Or maybe it doesn’t work at all.  We can’t tell from this piss poor excuse for a study.

[oldfeminist]  Look, I said, way up there, the other related existing studies suggest it might be useful to investigate this further.  But to claim that the study above proves that honey is good for a vaginal yeast infection?  Totally indefensible.  And you should know it.

[Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein]  Except that the conclusion of the paper doesn’t come to that conclusion, and neither do I.

What are you claiming, then?  State it, simply.

I quit this conversation, I would only suggest you bring up the subject with your gynecologist next time and see what he/she says about the subject, in fact anyone with any doubts should research it and do their own determination on whether they’d benefit from honey on their ladyparts when they have a yeast infection.

You keep saying “on.”  When the kind of yeast infection we’re talking about is “in.”  I find it interesting that you keep eliding that difference.  It’s what the whole fucking argument we’re having rests on.  If studies on skin were sufficient, then the many studies on skin that show a positive effect would be sufficient.  They are only indicatory of a possibility that using honey in the vagina for yeast infections is safe and effective.

The right to choose, that’s what it’s all about, right?

Wow.  No, it’s not. 

We’re talking about whether honey in the vagina is safe and effective for yeast infections.  The right to choose has nothing to do with that.

I mean, you can put anything you like in your nonexistent vagina.  That’s your right to choose.  Whether honey helps vaginal yeast infections doesn’t depend on your belief or your right to choose anything.

Comment #157: oldfeminist  on  04/12  at  12:37 PM

Editing error, middle of post 160 should read: 
“I need more than one article about honey used to treat vaginal yeast infections.”

Not that I expect you’ll hear it this time, either.

Comment #158: oldfeminist  on  04/12  at  12:40 PM

Just noticed this disclaimer on the l-mesitran site:  “This website and the provided information is NOT intended for USA visitors to this website.”  Golly I wonder why?

Comment #159: oldfeminist  on  04/12  at  12:48 PM

Publication notes on the single article found on klinion.nl went to:

Submitted for publication to: Supplement, onafhankelijk vakblad over natuurlijke voeding en gezondheid. Reprinted with permission.

Submitted for publication. Not published.

The translation of the title from a page on reflexology where I could find this supplement quoted:

Supplement  

Onafhankelijk vakblad over natuurlijke voeding en gezondheid ! Independent journal on natural nutrition and health!
Elke twee maanden boordevol nieuws en interessante thema’s, belicht vanuit verschillende disciplines van de natuurgerichte Gezondheidszorg. Every two months full of news and interesting topics discussed from different disciplines of the nature-based Healthcare.
Uitgever: Supplement bv Uithoorn Tel: 0297-580511/E-mail: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) Publisher: Supplement eg Uithoorn Tel: 0297-580511/E-mail: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

My guess is that the referees on this journal didn’t do the kind of due diligence you seem to think.

Comment #160: oldfeminist  on  04/12  at  01:05 PM

There’s lots of things I put on my skin that I don’t and wouldn’t put in my vagina.  They aren’t the same.

Ever heard of the saying, don’t put anything into your vagina that you wouldn’t put in your mouth?

And yet that information isn’t in the paper, where it should be.  The referees of this publication apparently don’t need that information.  What publication is it again?

Apparently a Dutch one:

³Submitted for publication to: Supplement, onafhankelijk vakblad over natuurlijke voeding en
gezondheid. Reprinted with permission.

I thought you said you read the paper thoroughly?

I have repeatedly also said that the success of topical use doesn’t:

(1) prove effectiveness inside the vagina
(2) prove safety inside the vagina.

Yes, WHICH IS WHY CLINICAL STUDIES ARE NEEDED TO ESTABLISH WHETHER THIS IS THE CASE OR NOT!

“No adverse effects on tissues” is not the same as “no adverse effects on vaginal flora.”

See the above.

Dead dogs and cows are a little different from dead humans.

Is that why dogs are never used to test drugs or medical techniques before they go to the human clinical part of a study?

Well, the manufacturers of [TADA] L-Mesitran would.

If and only if you assume that they would have the only honey wound formula on the planet that would work the same way as demonstrated here.

Interesting, though, that your argument here takes as its premiss that the conclusion isn’t proven.  You’re arguing a form of ad misericordiam now, that it would be proven already if there were big money in honey cures.  The lack of proof because the medical community is supposedly mercenary doesn’t mean we don’t need proof or that we can assume it’s proven.

Don’t pull your latin bullshit on me, my intent was clearly that if honey was a cure nobody would make big bucks on it the way they do on new antibiotics, antifungal agents, etc, so there is no incentive to do clinical studies using honey or L-Mesitran.

Well, actually, they didn’t report on this, so we don’t know.  But in fact, you keep misattributing this statement.  The question I raised about oral antibiotics was in response to the second PDF I pointed to, the one where the people who manufacture and sell L-Mesitran show you scary before and less-scary after pictures of people who were treated with L-Mesitran.  AND MAYBE OTHER THINGS BUT THEY DON’T FUCKING SAY.

L-Mesitran® was applied by us, on women with vaginitis complaints.

It says they reported to their GP with vaginitis, not that they had been under treatment already with a doctor at the time of their referral, so the common-sense interpretation is that the scary pictures reflect an initial untreated stage.

Why would women with vaginitis complaints be given oral antibiotics when there wasn’t even a differential diagnosis made before the treatment began?

 

It’s what the whole fucking argument we’re having rests on.  If studies on skin were sufficient, then the many studies on skin that show a positive effect would be sufficient.  They are only indicatory of a possibility that using honey in the vagina for yeast infections is safe and effective.

Yes, because vaginal tissue is so much different that ordinary skin.

Golly I wonder why?

Perhaps because it isn’t an American company, and thus not subject to American Laws?

THIS SITE IS INTENTED FOR HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS ONLY

This website is construed under the laws of The Netherlands. All the claims and statements made on this website are in accordance with those applicable laws and regulations. The visitor reading this website should be aware of the laws of the country he or she lives in and that the products displayed will have different claims and labelling depending on the country he or she lives in.

Wow.  No, it’s not.

We’re talking about whether honey in the vagina is safe and effective for yeast infections.  The right to choose has nothing to do with that.

I mean the right to choose to research and investigate the matter for ones’ self, and not to just listen to you, Triticum, me, or the person down the street.

Comment #161: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/12  at  01:28 PM
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