Hey, if Sam Houston hadn’t caught Santa Anna and his men taking a siesta at San Jacinto…

No, no, no. That land was all empty. The history books say so. That’s why only Europeans are listed as discoverers.

I wonder how many people thought “Columbus, furrin name” and went directly to “recent Hispanic immigrant” without passing through 1492.

It’s funny how when wingnuts try to portray liberals as violent, they have to fake their injuries by scratching letters in their own foreheads, or showing up at an event in a wheelchair that’s only fooling other wingnuts. Then they turn around and demonstrate that they’re the violent, irrational ones.

I was informed by a teabagger that the white man won the land from the natives fair and square by using force.  I told him we’d be stopping by his house on the way home with a couple of rifles and it would be much faster and easier for us if he had his flat screen disconnected and ready to go when we got there.  Stupid fuck.

Meh, badkitty, as a historian I tend not to care who “rightfully” owned any land.  The Romans took over the culture that had most of Italy, Europe had been reconquered dozens of times.  Now you can debate what is right or wrong, but geopolitical conflicts end with physical force.  If you have an army that can overtake his house and state? Go for it, it’s rightfully your’s because you can do it. 

Most historians concur with me, we’re multicultural and we respect the right of people to exist but the US is here, the natives have been displaced, no amount of vague guilt will make me give a hoot one way or the other about their existence.  I feel for the people who are here now.  They need our support to maintain their historical past and culture but need to accept that western culture is here to stay and accept a certain amount of assimilation into the system.

Course, I find myself not quite as left as some of the other commentators which is interesting, since I am far left by normal US standards.

From much of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, you would think these people would agree that the hemisphere should have had a zero tolerance policy from 1492. Certainly when “illegals” refers to illegal immigrants but not illegal murderers, illegal burglars, illegal arsonists, etc; you would think they would not think any different of those immigrants who made it here before Congress finally got around to cracking down on these criminals in 1924.

Xeranar: Maybe, but the sheer magnitude of the catastrophe suffered by the Indians boggles the mind. Between 1500 and 1900, the population of North American Indians is thought to have shrunk by more than 96%.

Ninety-six percent. A Hitler or a Milosevic could only dream of ethnic cleansing that efficient.

Granted, most of the deaths came from smallpox or other infectious diseases for which whites were unwitting carriers. But America’s treatment of Indians, from the Trail of Tears, to the Plains Wars, and long afterward, is a record of cheating, disgrace and murder. It’s as bad a blot on our national character as slavery, and there’s no use pretending otherwise.

Also interesting: “La Reconquista” properly refers to an effort by white people to kick out non-whites.

Xeranar - what the fuck?

I’d like to think that anti-immigrant groups “are simply going to lose the demographic war to younger people who have more open minds about living in a multi-cultural society,” but here in the Nashville area there are still plenty of white men* in their 20s and 30s who think that having brown skin and not speaking fluent English is a crime that should be punishable by being sent “back to Mexico or wherever the fuck you came from.”

*Possible women too, but young women who feel this way seem to be either much less common, or simply a lot less vocal about it.

Xeranar - sorry to ruin your detachment to study of history, but, some of us Native Americans are still here.  And a lot of our tribal governments have treaties - you know, supposedly legally binding documents?  Negotiated with the gov’t of the US and, in some cases, various and sundry European powers?  We have not been completely displaced.  So, with all due disrespect, this cranky, still breathing Native sez Fuck You.

Meanwhile, props to ‘Robert Erickson’.

I would insinuate that I being white don’t feel for you, but since you so clearly despise me for being unlucky enough to be born into a middle class family who came here after the trail of tears had happened and was only born in the later third of the 20th century I technically hold no responsibility for the actions in the past.  I do stand by and say that it was woefully unfair to have broken treaties and destroyed so many native Americans through inaction or purposeful murder.  I feel that it is a terrible thing to lose so much culture but thousands of cultures have been wiped out by others. 

It doesn’t mean the loss is less important but it is a reality that we live in a society that has wiped out so many others it would be impossible to make amends but on the same token relinquishing sovereign land to any power is really not an option.  It is rightfully arguable that you as a native American have the right to keep your culture but to give say, Nevada as sovereign territory is unrealistic.  I’m a historian, I’m also human, I believe that native Americans need better protection of their rights but in a society based on freedom and equality after those rights have been equaled and protected what more can a citizen ask for? 

We live on this planet as one collective society separated by borders and biases.  But we all need to live together as best we can.  Course, I advocate a realistic amount of assimilation and amalgamation to create a multi-cultural society rather than continue to force some sort of wedge into our society.

The point which keeps going whizzing over your head, Xeranar, is that if that vague guilt is ever to be learned from we shouldn’t have nativist white-supremacist groups getting public air.

Sheesh.

It is quite patently a feature of the human condition that we are mobile, and the vast majority of us live where other ethnic groups used to live at one time.  Most people who realise that their ancestors came from elsewhere can be made to feel extremely guilty, due to essentialising ideas about land and identity.  Liberals are not immune from this, to the degree that they have magical ideas about moral purity:  Perhaps they didn’t personally invade another country, and perhaps they have washed their hands of such nefarious ideas, but lurking in the background of their mind is still another kind of knowledge.  Generally, those who feel such guilt try to pass it off onto others whom they deem to be far more guiltier than they.  They aim for a tangible transfer of guilt.

I would insinuate that I being white don’t feel for you, but since you so clearly despise me for being unlucky enough to be born into a middle class family who came here after the trail of tears had happened and was only born in the later third of the 20th century I technically hold no responsibility for the actions in the past.

No one here is blaming you, but we sure as hell would like you to realize that you directly benefit from centuries of white oppression of Natives. It might help dispel some of those “Everyone must assimilate to my culture” thoughts.

Speaking of anti-immigrant wingnuts… Lou Dobbs was on The Falafel Factor tonight, presumably auditioning for his future employer while whining about scary migrant workers and the meanies at CNN who gave him the boot last week.

Those two could tag team and build a mind-numbingly idiotic meme about the evils of the song “Feliz Navidad”.

Billo could build a “War on Christmas” talking point by screaming, “Why do they gotta call it ‘Navidad’, dammit?!?! Everyone knows it’s called Christmas, except these anti-Christmas far left loons!”

Piñata-phobic Lou could play up the “War on Mexicans” angle by howling, “Why do they gotta sing in Mexican, dammit?!?!” We speak American here, Pedro!”

This NEW video from Twin Cities IMC will improve your day if you got married AND won the lottery! Check out the full story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rry_SlPW7oU
http://tc.indymedia.org/2009/nov/tcimc-video-robert-erickson-punks-tea-party-full-story

The crowd reaction is priceless and check out the weird interactions w/ Ruthie, Sue and the other teabaggers. Columbus go home!

“[...] but since you so clearly despise me for being unlucky enough to be born into a middle class family who came here after the trail of tears had happened [...]”

So, how’s the view from up on that cross?

It doesn’t mean the loss is less important but it is a reality that we live in a society that has wiped out so many others it would be impossible to make amends but on the same token relinquishing sovereign land to any power is really not an option.  It is rightfully arguable that you as a native American have the right to keep your culture but to give say, Nevada as sovereign territory is unrealistic.

You know what a big plus for Native people would be? Not necessarily giving them all their land back (which is, as you know, fraught), or even compensating them fairly for it (which is a step we as a society aren’t ready to take yet even though it’s the right thing to do) but you know, STOP actually taking what little land they have left. Stop actually using what little land they have left as a dumping ground for nuclear waste and pollution. Stop actually taking their mineral resources without compensating them. Stop forcing “economic development” onto them without consulting them or including them in the benefits of that development.

It is so frustrating when we can’t even start to talk about issues like this in the present tense because of white guilt and people talk about the theft of land like it’s something that happened in the past and doesn’t happen now. This is simply not true - many nations have had substantial pieces of their land taken from them and their title ignored in the 20th and 21st centuries.

I hate it when people claim that immigrants are stealing jobs.  Shouldn’t people who worship the free market understand that jobs aren’t a zero-sum game?  Every single immigrant needs food, housing, education, entertainment, transportation, clothing, medical care, etc.  Someone has to supply those things.  They create as many jobs as they take.  The problem isn’t that they’re stealing jobs; it’s that they are often satisfied with a lower standard of living than other Americans and they don’t know their rights as workers, so they are often willing to work for less money and in horrible conditions.  However, shouldn’t market-worshipers encourage that kind of competition and also agree to work in dismal conditions?  That’s how the completely free market works, and it really sucks for anyone who isn’t a business owner.

Also, Xeranar, you so don’t speak for “Historians” as a group. Not even a little bit. Certainly not the ones who’ve actually studied native history and thus can actually claim the moniker “Historian” as some kind of expert status in this instance.

If you’re thinking you can apply the lessons of roman history to the conquest of America without ever stopping or passing go, you’re a bad historian.

“We live on this planet as one collective society separated by borders and biases.  But we all need to live together as best we can.  Course, I advocate a realistic amount of assimilation and amalgamation to create a multi-cultural society rather than continue to force some sort of wedge into our society.”

I don’t think anyone is forcing any wedges into anything. I really don’t think that “society” has the right to have an opinion about how much people want to assimilate or not. That’s the point of America. You can make it whatever you want. A Nepali lady who works with my wife put it as, “The United States has no culture.”

And that’s the genius, in my opinion. We can make our culture whatever we want and there’s no authority who can tell us otherwise. We all just have to agree on the basic minimums required by law. (send your kids to school, that kind of thing)

Now, obviously she’s wrong and we do have a culture, but we don’t have to watch football, or celebrate Christmas with presents wrapped in brightly-colored paper. I’ve never lived anywhere but Michigan, so take this with a mountain of salt, but I get the impression that in the U.S. there’s more freedom to check out of the dominant culture than other places.

Even if that’s not true, it’s at least an ideal, that you can go your way and I can go mine and we don’t have to be the same to live in peaceishness.

Many of us descendents of survivors have pretty screwed up immune systems, too. Lots of autoimmune issues - and diabetes is an autoimmune issue, too.

BTW ... ACTION WIN!

Consider this: we are all immigrants - including native Americans.  When it comes to the North and South American continents, humans aren’t simply immigrants ... we are an invasive species!

Just as shocking was the reaction of the state police working the rally, who pushed back those being attacked, rather than those attacking the counter protesters

Not shocking at all. Most pigs seem to be of a conservative bend.

Between 1500 and 1900, the population of North American Indians is thought to have shrunk by more than 96%.

I remember rereading the Little House on the Prarie books as an adult and being blown away by the hatred towards Native Americans. Lauras mom was a real nasty person about it.

Santa Anna’s mistress is celebrated in the song “The Yellow Rose of Texas” it was she who had apparently “distracted” the general during his siesta for long enough that the Texans caught him or so the local legend goes. Hmmmm a reconquista sounds interesting. Being a 10th Generation Californian maybe my family can get back the 80K Santa Barbara acres my ancestors lost to the Yanquis in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. One can dream….

Consider this: we are all immigrants - including native Americans.  When it comes to the North and South American continents, humans aren’t simply immigrants ... we are an invasive species!

Okayyyy…it’s not a terrible useful way to look at things, though.

Invasions, displacements, and conquests have been happening for thousands of years. Even today’s “Native Americans” apparently displaced even earlier arrivals.

Nevertheless, the old “Columbus was an illegal immigrant” argument is well-worn and foolish. The implication seems to be that since Europeans arrived “illegally” and stole the Indian’s land, that Americans have no right to stop illegal aliens from entering the country. Let them come in by the tens of millions, we have no moral right to stop them. Overlooked is the fact that the United States exists as a nation, the European “invasion” is a historical fact that isn’t going to reverse itself somehow, and that we as a nation have the perfect right to enforce our laws about who can and cannot enter our nation. If you don’t like it, well boo-hoo to you. Go wring your hands in the mirror so you can admire your moral superiority better. Until we lay down and die,  the United States has no less right to exist and to enforce its immigration laws than any other nation on the Earth.

Also, Xeranar, you so don’t speak for “Historians” as a group. Not even a little bit. Certainly not the ones who’ve actually studied native history and thus can actually claim the moniker “Historian” as some kind of expert status in this instance.

If you’re thinking you can apply the lessons of roman history to the conquest of America without ever stopping or passing go, you’re a bad historian.

Sorry, I came from the geopolitical school of history.  Don’t take things from a moralist point of view, don’t make them personal, and view history from the time period it was done in.  People wanted that land for themselves, the native Americans had no natural defenses to European diseases and they won that fight.  It isn’t wrong or right, it is history and morality doesn’t apply.  That is for the philosophers to discuss. People wipe each other out, it’s how it works.  Call me a bad historian if it suits you, it doesn’t take my PhD away.  If anything it just makes me care less about what you have to say next time you open your mouth to comment on my remarks.

As for continuing to destroy reservations and such, I am for the protection of the people living currently on them.  I’m for teaching them, giving them job opportunities and aiding them in every way we can possibly muster.  I have no but to the argument, just a statement that those who are alive matter and those who have passed have no say in what I feel responsible in that respect.

The implication seems to be that since Europeans arrived “illegally” and stole the Indian’s land, that Americans have no right to stop illegal aliens from entering the country. Let them come in by the tens of millions, we have no moral right to stop them.

Actually, when it comes to illegal immigrants, the argument is that the US stole the land from Mexico in the Mexican-American War, not that Europeans stole it from the native Americans.  Since there have been Spanish-speaking people in the Southwest since long before English speakers arrived, it seems awfully silly to insist that Mexicans are somehow “invaders.”  It’s not like Los Angeles or Albuquerque are good ol’ Anglo-Saxon names and it’s somehow strange and bizarre that Spanish-speaking people would live there.  There are Mexican-Americans here in California whose families have lived in California for longer than my family has been in the United States, and yet somehow people think of them as invaders.

Of course, one of the main reasons we have such a major problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America is the inhumane policies of the Reagan administration, which deported people back to places like El Salvador and Guatemala because if their US-supported death squads wanted to murder them, they must deserve to be murdered.  The Sanctuary movement was what really broke the border down.

Not to mention that there are plenty of illegal immigrants from Europe living here, but it’s much easier to find the brown-skinned ones than the Irish and Polish ones.  Somehow people don’t get all worked up about the thousands of illega Polish yardworkers and Irish bartenders the way they get all worked up about the Mexican yardworkers and cooks.  Hmm, I wonder what the reason for that could be.  Hmm.  Such a mystery.

Sorry, I came from the geopolitical school of history.  Don’t take things from a moralist point of view, don’t make them personal, and view history from the time period it was done in.  People wanted that land for themselves, the native Americans had no natural defenses to European diseases and they won that fight.  It isn’t wrong or right, it is history and morality doesn’t apply.  That is for the philosophers to discuss. People wipe each other out, it’s how it works.  Call me a bad historian if it suits you, it doesn’t take my PhD away.  If anything it just makes me care less about what you have to say next time you open your mouth to comment on my remarks.

This is somewhat less than convincing. If you were really looking at things from a removed standpoint, you’d be just as dispassionate about forcing assimilation as you are about killing people.

Mnemosyne:your comment (32)wins.