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Next entry: Bill Kristol Is A Prince Among Kings Previous entry: Mark Sanford on new stories of more women - but I ‘didn’t cross the sex line’

Common ground and the dangers of assuming good faith on the part of those who don’t have it

I can imagine that people like Will Saletan, who sincerely want to believe that there’s a possibility of separating “pro-life” opposition to abortion from “pro-life” opposition to contraception and sex education, might actually be shocked at this news that should shock no one who admits that anti-choicers are and have always been more interested in punishing women for having sex than preserving fetal life.

As the White House readies its plan for finding “common ground” on reproductive health issues and reducing the need for abortion, a major debate has emerged over how to package the plan’s two major components: preventing unwanted pregnancies and reducing the need for abortion.

Many abortion rights advocates and some Democrats who want to dial down the culture wars want the White House to package the two parts of the plan together, as a single piece of legislation. The plan would seek to reduce unwanted pregnancies by funding comprehensive sex education and contraception and to reduce the need for abortion by bolstering federal support for pregnant women. Supporters of the approach say it would force senators and members of Congress on both sides of the abortion battle to compromise their traditional positions, creating true common ground that mirrors what President Obama has called for.

From the get-go, the selling point of “common ground” has been that it’s not a compromise of core beliefs, but an attempt to find what both sides have in common and work with that. A plan to offer more social support to women who continue pregnancies, to offer more contraception and sex education to prevent unplanned pregnancies, and to make adoption easier (whatever that means) only works if you assume good faith all around, and believe that anti-choicers are actually in this because they are disturbed by the killing of fetuses.  In that case, there is a lot of common ground, and no one should have a problem with this bill.

In reality, anti-choicers are experiencing this as a compromise, even if you remove the contraception and sex education parts.  If you correctly assume that the anti-choice movement is motivated primarily by a misogynist need to punish women who have unapproved sex, then you can see how offering social support to mothers is already, from their point of view, a compromise of their basic beliefs, from two angles:

1) The sex is bad angle.  Anti-choicers see sex as fundamentally sinful, especially out of the bonds of marriage, and unplanned pregnancy as both a punishment for those who transgress and a danger to keep others from transgressing.  From that point of view then, there’s something distasteful about making it easier on women who have babies out of wedlock.  If you’re trying to use punishment as a deterrent, especially from the right wing point of view, then it’s not especially effective to reduce the amount of punishment.  But wingnuts are willing to compromise on this issue, because they compromise on the punishment thing a lot. For instance, from their point of view, they’re letting go of anti-sodomy laws, but they’re not going to just roll over for gay marriage.

2) The patriarchal angle.  Opposition to abortion and birth control are about more than making women pay for fucking.  It’s about channeling women into their proper patriarchal gender roles.  Ideally, for anti-choicers, all unplanned pregnancies would result in giving a baby up to be adopted by proper married parents, or the pregnant mother would get married.  (That unplanned pregnancies happen and are aborted within marriage doesn’t compute, even though 1/3 of abortions are obtained by women who are or have been married before.)  From this point of view, the social support for pregnant women is a huge compromise of values on their part, because it makes it easier for women to be single mothers, which they definitely oppose, even though it’s hard enough to satisfy angle #1.  But since abortion is legal, there’s not much they can do about it.  That they understand that a lot of women simply will don’t have adoption or marriage on the radar for this pregnancy is a huge concession to reality for them.


What wouldn’t be concessions from them if they were arguing in good faith are felt like concessions.  If you add something that really burns their britches—-increased support for contraception and sex education, which allow women to have sex without even the minimal punishment of sweating unplanned pregnancies—-then they’re going to feel like they’re doing all the compromising and pro-choicers are giving up nothing.  That’s why people like Will Saletan are fudging around and pretending that pro-choicers are being asked to concede a bunch of stuff that we’re not, such as “admitting” that abortion is morally complicated (of course it is—-that’s why it’s a private matter) or that people should be responsible (we’re the only ones pushing contraception, you know).  So of course they feel justified in thinking that they get to demand a concession from pro-choicers, and what’s the one thing that we really want that they really don’t?  Contraception. 

This could go one of two ways.  Matt thinks that this is going to be a win, and I agree with him, as long as the White House plays it strategically:

I think we’re arguably seeing here the real fruits of seeking common ground in good faith—their real views are smoked out.

This will only work if the Democrats working on this flog the hell out of contraception instead of pulling the roll over maneuver.  This is one of the simplest plays they can make to advance the pro-choice cause, since most Americans, even many who identify as “pro-life”, use contraception.  If they’re “pro-life”, they probably think other women who use contraception are slutty, but still, this sort of blanket condemnation isn’t going to sit well.  This is particularly true when a lot of people have convinced themselves that anti-choicers are just generally good people who are just a tad too enthusiastic about fetal life, an illusion that’s really hard to maintain if you know that they’re against contraception, as well.

What I fear is that the “let’s all make friends” tendencies that rule over Democrats will kick in, and they’ll let the anti-choicers kill the contraception angle in order to get something passed that they can call “common ground”.  They should resist this urge at all costs.  I’m beginning to suspect that pro-choicers seeking common ground are being set up by anti-choicers.  Since the right wing made abortion such a big deal after Roe was decided, there have been two competing narratives about why women get abortions.  Pro-choicers believe that abortion is usually a responsible decision made by ordinary women with ordinary sex lives who are trying to do the best that they can.  Anti-choicers believe that women who get abortions are dumb sluts who are trying to escape punishment for fucking. They use words like “convenience” and imply that places like Planned Parenthood are in cahoots with dirty bird men who want to fuck dumb bunnies without having to marry them.

On its surface, the common ground discourse about giving more support to mothers makes it seem like anti-choicers are coming around to the view of women that’s more sympathetic.  They’re all big eyes and pity for women who abort because they can’t afford to have another child.  But since they’re big fans of deceptive tactics, we should assume that this stance is also likely to be a lie.  I suspect what’s going on is that they hope that they can offer women a little more support, and when this doesn’t result in the abortion rate going down, they’re going to say, “See?  We told you they’re dumb sluts who only abort because a baby would interfere with their mani-pedi schedule.” 

And if all the bill has in it are economic incentives, then I seriously doubt it’s going to do much to reduce the abortion rate.  The Guttmacher tracks reasons that women have abortions, and as you will see, most of their reasons fall out of the range of anything that financial assistance could address:

The irony here is that this particular study is being used to tout the economic incentives, because 73% of women state that they can’t afford a baby right now.  But women are allowed to check off multiple boxes, and if you look at the breakdown, you’ll find that “can’t afford” often means that you don’t want to quit school, you’re not married, you don’t see a future with the father, or you have enough kids.  Once you start looking into the percentages that policy can address—-health care, child care, etc.—-we’re looking at percentages in the low 20s.  That’s not nothing, but women who are in that position usually need a lot more help than any of the “common ground” bills I’ve seen will give them, since they need jobs and housing and affordable day care, all of which would require massive government programs.  I predict that financial support for mothers under the Obama proposal will only have a minor effect on the abortion rate. 

Unless there’s a huge contraception push.  It’s certainly true that the lower women are on the income ladder, the more likely they are to need an abortion, but a huge reason for this is that poverty interferes dramatically with regular contraception use.  What seems cheap to middle class people—-$50 a month on pills or condoms—-can be daunting for people that are barely getting by.  Addressing their needs as well as the needs of teenagers who are new to sex and might be a little wary of going out of their way to acquire and learn about contraception, and you do a lot for reducing unplanned pregnancy.  But if anti-choicers are on board with “common ground” because they want to sabotage the pro-choice/pro-woman arguments, then actually reducing the abortion rate would screw up their plans.  So one more reason for them to try to chip contraception and sex education off the bill.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:55 PM • (41) Comments

“Pro-lifers” need something more to think about: free maternal medical care and clean air and water would save lots of unborn lives. Tell any pro-lifers you encounter to put their money where their mouths are, and listen to them holler.

Comment #1: GrannyT  on  06/30  at  07:21 PM

From that point of view then, there’s something distasteful about making it easier on women who have babies out of wedlock. 

This is so pervasive that it affects women who are pro-choice as well. The first letter on the Dear Sugar advice column at The Rumpus today will break your heart—from a woman who had an abortion 6 months ago and can’t tell anyone about it because she feels ashamed for having done it. No doubt most right-wingers would say “good—that’s how you’re supposed to feel, you fucking baby-killer” but anyone with an gram of compassion would feel awful for anyone in that situation.

Comment #2: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  06/30  at  07:24 PM

Yeah, common ground is pretty sketchy, because many die-hard anti-choice people are really pro-unprotected-sex-between-married-het-partners in which god “blesses” the uterus as much as he sees fit.  To some of them, unwanted pregnancy is the proof that God’s patriarchal laws are just and really the best for all of us.  (Just like Jews often cite health reasons as justification for the view that kashrut laws, though they sound crazy, are really smart and for our own good. Clearly a stretch) When you take the link between sex and punishment-pregnancies away, you remove one of the most powerful arguments for why God’s restrictive rules about sexuality are reasonable. So yeah, maybe some of ‘em will take the push for contraception and sex-education but most won’t, and they’ll be holding their noses. There are probably a few radical vegans who are anti-choice who would unequivocally be pro-contraception and sex-ed and might jump on the common ground bandwagon. They’re like .1% of the anti-choice crowd though.

Although in theory, both pro-choice and anti-choice people would be against the idea that 20% of people get abortions because “my parents” or “my husband or my partner want me to get an abortion.” I’m pro-choice, but I’m against douchebags pressuring people into doing something when it has to do with their own body.  It’s not clear that many of the people who cite that reason would change their minds about abortion if their families butted out (probably for some that’s just one of many reasons to get an abortion), but there might be some (small) common ground to work with there. Maybe the common ground people can start a non-douchebag education bill, which teaches men and parents not to be so bullying to their wives/partners/daughters. Doubtful though.

Comment #3: t-ster  on  06/30  at  07:25 PM

Does anyone really think abortion is the cat’s meow? I don’t; Yet I still think access to safe and legal abortion ought to be a normal part of respecting women’s autonomy. Thus I believe that abortion should be safe, legal, and available without any harassment.

There are are some that this bridge might reach, but they are a small minority of those opposed to abortion. The anti-choice movement is really an anti-sex movement. And it’s not just women they’re after. You’ll find the strongest proponents of circumcision among the fundies. What could be more anti-sex than wishing no one should have a normal penis?

Comment #4: Bacopa  on  06/30  at  07:37 PM

t-ster, You might get some pro-lifers with you on the “protect women from bullying partners/husbands” angle, but if you ask a pro-lifer if a girl ought to have the right to choose abortion without her father’s knowledge or consent, suddenly you find you’re deep into patriarchal territory: Daddy Knows Best, you see, and an underage girl who’s pregnant really ought not to be able to get an abortion without her father’s permission. To protect her, of course. (The notion that she may need to be protected from her bullying dad does not compute on the pro-lifer patriarchal mindset.)

Comment #5: Jesurgislac  on  06/30  at  07:41 PM

Jesurgislac, I tend to agree, it’s partly wishful thinking on my part to think pro-lifers would get behind something that might, in some instances, encourage abortion in any way shape or form.  But I still like the idea of introducing a non-douchebag education bill into congress. It has a nice ring to it.

Comment #6: t-ster  on  06/30  at  07:46 PM

Although in theory, both pro-choice and anti-choice people would be against the idea that 20% of people get abortions because “my parents” or “my husband or my partner want me to get an abortion.”

Most clinics screen patients for coercion.  You can’t catch them all, but they do try.  (I read one touching story in the tributes to Dr. Tiller where he picked up the vibe off a woman that she was being coerced—-she was—-and sent her home.)  But that your partner wants it, too, isn’t proof positive evidence of coercion.  It’s mostly an indicator that there needs to be more research into how many women are there because someone is making them do this against their will.  I doubt it’s 20%.

I understand the ideological urge to insist on “pure” choices that are uninfluenced by outside factors like what your husband wants.  But the real world doesn’t work that way.  It’s legitimate to take lack of support into account when making your choice.  If an unexpected pregnancy reveals that you and your husband have vastly different views on the desireability of reproduction, I don’t see the problem in giving up on the baby and the relationship, and finding someone who fits into your life plan better.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/30  at  07:51 PM

Maybe the common ground people can start a non-douchebag education bill, which teaches men and parents not to be so bullying to their wives/partners/daughters.

That won’t go over well even with the pro-contraception anti-abortion people like Steve Waldman.  People like him see emotional coercion as a legitimate tool to convince women not to abort, and that kind of education would undermine that.  That’s what people mean when they talk about how we need more discussion about the “morality” of abortion—-that there’s not enough horrible guilt laid on the 30-40% of women who do it, that they need to suffer even more.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/30  at  07:53 PM

Since 47 million Americans don’t have health insurance, and lack of health insurance kills thousands of Americans a year, all pro-lifers are in favor of universal health care, right?

Comment #9: Frederick R  on  06/30  at  07:57 PM

I’ve met pro-lifers who seem to be rational and operating in good faith—even if we disagree drastically on almost every angle—but, honestly, not many. And they’re certainly not the ones making all the noise.

Comment #10: aebhel  on  06/30  at  07:58 PM

Those aren’t innocent fetal lives, so, you know.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/30  at  07:58 PM

While I don’t like the compromise angle generally, knowing that anything with the word ‘contraception’ in the title is going to get rejected by the fanatics makes the attempts all pretty safe:  it’s a smart way of playing the right for chumps.  The public sees them offered something fair and popular, and rejecting it.

Comment #12: Billingham  on  06/30  at  08:02 PM

Keeping my fingers crossed this goes the right way. Honestly, at this point, hearing the phrase “common ground” raises my hackles. I used to be all for it; now, I want to scream “We’re in charge! Let’s DO something instead of mollycoddling everyone who has an opinion!”

Also, yes, more economic support for pregnant women and mothers. Of course. But I hate that it’s so taboo to acknowledge that some women don’t want a baby, period. No matter how much support they may have in their lives. So if that’s the only part of this “compromise” that sticks, I’m gonna hurl. 
(And I don’t mean it’s taboo here; y’all get it. Taboo on the part of so many of the pro-choice common-grounders.)

Comment #13: Shiny  on  06/30  at  08:09 PM

I tend to agree with Matt Y, at least to the degree that you mention.  To some extent, offering the olive branch of “common ground” is a tactical move designed to force them to state their opposition to contraception in no uncertain terms, which they are now willingly doing.  The Rahm Emmanuel-style, “give ‘em enough rope…” approach.  But for that to work it will take a fair amount of effort on our parts to push this back on them.  And I say our parts consciously… I think you are doing exactly what you need to be doing on this by talking about it loudly and often.  We need to crank up the noise machine a bit on this if we’re going to set the tone of the debate.  If we want to force them to either accept comprehensive sex-ed and support for women or to commit openly to blatantly anti-woman positions, we have to define this bargain for what it is… a pro-woman, pro-family, pro-choice agreement.

Comment #14: jamie d  on  06/30  at  08:09 PM

or, what billingham said more concisely…

Comment #15: jamie d  on  06/30  at  08:10 PM

Common Ground is a completely different concept from Comprimise. Of course! I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

Also, thank you for this brilliant summary of—well, how it does all come back to preserving the patriarchy. Masterful. I think I may be linking folks to this in many, many future discussions.

Thanks, Amanda.

Comment #16: humanadverb  on  06/30  at  08:11 PM

I’m not all that sure that Saletan is operating out of good faith.  1.  His constant harping on the guilt women should feel over abortion   2.  His fascination with young girls.  Characteristics that your average middle-aged doofus screaming at women in front of abortion clinics share.

Comment #17: DonnaDiva  on  06/30  at  08:29 PM

unplanned pregnancy as both a punishment for those who transgress and a danger to keep others from transgressing.

Same reason they are against HPV vaccination.  An STD that causes cancer is AWESOME for them…women pay the ultimate price, even if they were virgins when they married and it was their husbands who gave it to them.  SEX is teh EVIL, and if a few “innocents” go down in order to terrify the masses. that’s just a bonus.

—-

I love the “have completed my childbearing” option.  That just blows forced-gestationists’ minds.  That a woman would actually think she had the ability and right to decide whether or not to go through with a pregnancy, and that she’d decide she’d already had enough.

I’m there.  I love my kids, even the ‘oops’ third one who’s the light of our lives, but if I got pregnant again?  NO FUCKING WAY.  I’m done.  I do not want to go through another pregnancy and infancy stage child ever again—or at least not until I’m a grandma and don’t have full responsibility for said infant.

My whole life I wanted children.  Love them madly.  Have no desire for any more.  In other words, I blow forced-birthers’ minds b/c I have experienced the ‘miracle’ of childbirth; I adore my children more than my own life; and I’d still abort if i got pregnant again.

Comment #18: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/30  at  08:45 PM

There has never been any possibility of compromise with the religious fanatics of the forced birth movement,  The true “compromise position” (the one which enables everyone to follow their own conscience) is the pro-choice position.  Nobody is forced to have an abortion and nobody is prevented from having one.

Comment #19: DrDick  on  06/30  at  08:56 PM

(Just like Jews often cite health reasons as justification for the view that kashrut laws, though they sound crazy, are really smart and for our own good. Clearly a stretch.)

How is it a stretch for people who live in the desert to notice that people who eat pork become very ill and decide that maybe pork is bad to eat?  I mean, yes, they didn’t understand germ theory and know that people were getting sick because they were getting trichinosis and not because God was angry, but they still made an observation and came to a sensible conclusion (don’t eat pork) for where they lived.

The stuff about mixing fabrics is just stupid, though.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  06/30  at  09:03 PM

Mnemosyne, I think the point is that nowadays, you’ll find some religious Jews (at least at my day school) making the argument that Kashrut is not just the best way to live BecauseGodSaysSo, but because, see, everything God says is for a super awesome reason and is actually better for you.  And then they cite trichinosis and say “see, God not only told us to do this to make us show obedience, it also keeps us in tip top shape” If you believe God told you to do it, I think that is a legitimate and compelling justification, though obviously problematic for other reasons.  But vague health claims being used to prop up a baroque system of food restrictions, most of which do not improve or protect human health….that, to me, is kind of illogical and disingenuous.

Also, I think your explanation requires us to assume that’s a reason for the no pork rule, and that it derived from humans who were sensible and had made a quasi-scientific observation about nature.  But a lot of the rules in the bible don’t even attempt to be logical; they’re usually followed by “I am the Lord Your God,” as in “I don’t care if you think it’s logical, you do it because I said so.” I happen to think the kashrut rules are about 90% arbitrary, or were made by people who had biblical OCD or some major issues.

Comment #21: t-ster  on  06/30  at  09:15 PM

How is it a stretch for people who live in the desert to notice that people who eat pork become very ill and decide that maybe pork is bad to eat?

Pigs were first domesticated in the Middle East and the Hebrews’ neighbors, the Moabites, raised and ate them.  Food taboos like this one (or the American taboos on horse and dog) are seldom reducible to rational factors and generally primarily function as ethnic boundary markers.

Comment #22: DrDick  on  06/30  at  09:37 PM

Amen Amanda!

What seems cheap to middle class people—-$50 a month on pills or condoms—-can be daunting for people that are barely getting by.

And even worse if you don’t have insurance and can’t go with the cheaper bc pills because of certain reactions or etc. etc. any number of reasons.

Comment #23: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/30  at  09:40 PM

My whole life I wanted children.  Love them madly.  Have no desire for any more.  In other words, I blow forced-birthers’ minds b/c I have experienced the ‘miracle’ of childbirth; I adore my children more than my own life; and I’d still abort if i got pregnant again.

That’s exactly how I feel about it.  I love my kids, I planned to have kids, I’ve always wanted kids, and I’m done now.  I don’t want anymore, I never want to be pregnant again, I’m done.  Done.  And even aside from the pregnancy childbirth aspect of the whole thing (which I did not enjoy at all—beautiful experience my ass), I have one more year until the youngest starts school and I can go back to school and continue with my life plans.  I’m very much looking forward to it.  And people always act like I’m some kind of unnatural person who can’t love her already existing children because I’m not willing to have anymore and also not willing to forgo sex with the husband in order to not have any more.

Comment #24: ks  on  06/30  at  09:43 PM

I agree with Marvin Harris that food taboos are more about ecology and the use of capital than any specific deseases. If you live in a forest like Bavaria or East Texas, raising pigs is highly cost effective. In arid grasslands and deserts, pigs requirevhuge amounts of water and supplimental feed. Pigs are a capital-intensive nightmare in deserts.

Comment #25: Bacopa  on  06/30  at  09:51 PM

“The true compromise position…is…pro-choice”.

Alas, DrDick, some obvious truths simply cannot be stated directly—like, the fact that three quarters of Palestine is already reserved for an Arab state called “Transjordanian Palestine”, often shortened to “Jordan”, so no additional Palestinian state is actually needed.

Not an attempt to threadjack, just an observation on the unfortunate nature of certain truths: that “pro-choice” is an honest compromise position and not an euphemism for “pro-abortion” is another.

Comment #26: Dr. Psycho  on  06/30  at  11:01 PM

Food taboos like this one (or the American taboos on horse and dog) are seldom reducible to rational factors and generally primarily function as ethnic boundary markers.

I read an excellent essay some time back on how this worked. If you ate the same foods as the neighboring tribes, you might sit down to lunch with them. And if you sat down to lunch with them, you might get to know them. And if you got to know them, you might decide they’re not actually vile barbarians. Dietary constraints enforced the status quo.

Comment #27: kristin  on  06/30  at  11:03 PM

I’m not wild about the idea of common ground.  I get it from a political perspective, but after having the anti-abortion crowd frame the abortion debate for the last 30 years, well, it just seems like giving in once again.  The title of the post hits the nail on the head.

Comment #28: FashionablyEvil  on  06/30  at  11:05 PM

t-ster, You might get some pro-lifers with you on the “protect women from bullying partners/husbands” angle, but if you ask a pro-lifer if a girl ought to have the right to choose abortion without her father’s knowledge or consent, suddenly you find you’re deep into patriarchal territory: Daddy Knows Best, you see, and an underage girl who’s pregnant really ought not to be able to get an abortion without her father’s permission. To protect her, of course. (The notion that she may need to be protected from her bullying dad does not compute on the pro-lifer patriarchal mindset.)

It would be interesting to frame it this way, though…in the same way that we want those clinic signs that say “No one can force you to abort” to also say “No one can force you to give birth.” Because if they’re going to pretend that their common ground is caring about women, then they’ve got to go along with the idea of reducing coercion either way or expose their true motive. Ask them what they think about families coercing women into making reproductive choices, with the implication that that “choice” is abortion, then turn it round and say “I’m so glad we have common ground - I don’t think families should be able to coerce women into giving birth, either.”

Alas, DrDick, some obvious truths simply cannot be stated directly—like, the fact that three quarters of Palestine is already reserved for an Arab state called “Transjordanian Palestine”, often shortened to “Jordan”, so no additional Palestinian state is actually needed.

...what the fuck?

Comment #29: Rebecca  on  06/30  at  11:19 PM

Also, I think your explanation requires us to assume that’s a reason for the no pork rule, and that it derived from humans who were sensible and had made a quasi-scientific observation about nature.  But a lot of the rules in the bible don’t even attempt to be logical; they’re usually followed by “I am the Lord Your God,” as in “I don’t care if you think it’s logical, you do it because I said so.”

But you see, that’s where you’re making your mistake—and ironically it’s one that fundamentalists make all the time.  Most of the rules in the Bible are completely logical and sensible ... assuming you live in a small, close-knit primitive tribe surrounded by hostile tribes that you need to differentiate yourself from.  The problem comes in when people in the modern world try to apply those rules to how we live now and it’s a really bad fit.

However, if the apocalypse comes and we’re all reduced back to herding sheep in small tribes across Mesopotamia, we’re totally prepared with a set of rules that make perfect sense for that kind of group.

And, yes, our ancestors observed the world around them and came up with answers for the things they saw.  That’s pretty much Anthropology 101.  The fact that their answer was incorrect doesn’t negate the fact that they came to that conclusion through observation and testing.  The ancient Chinese didn’t have radio telescopes and computers, but they could tell you when the next eclipse would come with a pretty high degree of accuracy.  The fact that they believed that an eclipse was a dragon eating the sun doesn’t negate their observations, only their conclusions.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  06/30  at  11:55 PM

Awwwww, Monkeyshines makes the mistake, yet again, of thinking other people are as dumb as he is.  You say “Freudian slip”, and I say, “only if you’re so incredibly childish that you think ‘roll over’ is funny, due to having the mental development of a 5-year-old”.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/01  at  12:14 AM

Mnemosyne, I guess where we differ is that I don’t think the rules were meant for a certain people at a certain time… I think the bible has stories that date from many different centuries and reflect the interests of various different groups—many of whom were in fact city-dwellers living amongst other not-so-hostile similar groups who didn’t herd sheep, and had never lived in a true desert.

Some stories are parables to explain things like “why are all the Edomites so hairy?” some are obvious power grabs or attempts to root out divergent religious practices among the flock, some are attempts to explain and contain the effects of nature and the world around them (all those leprosy rules come to mind), but some are things that didn’t even make logical or scientific sense back then, and there’s no evidence they were ever implemented (for instance the jubilee years, and some of the more whackjob rules about ritual purity, which are contradicted in other parts of the bible). they were more like brainstorms or thought experiments that somehow made it into the final cut, in my mind, or traditions that someone, somewhere had followed,but not we can’t remember why exactly, but it’s part of the tradition so better to leave it in.

I don’t contest that some things were a response to the natural world around them—I just contest the idea that Kashrut in particular originated with such a quasi-scientific observation. (What i was mainly getting at with that point anyways is “don’t work so hard to find logic that appeals to our modern-day sensibilities in order to prop up archaic biblical rules that modern sensibilities would otherwise find pointless, perverse, or mistifying. If they seem stupid, don’t follow them, or admit you’re following them because ‘God told you so’”)

But I don’t want to divert the comment thread into biblical interpretation any further, since the post was about common ground, not Leviticus. Sorry for the tangent.

Comment #32: t-ster  on  07/01  at  01:30 AM

Pigs were first domesticated in the Middle East and the Hebrews’ neighbors, the Moabites, raised and ate them.  Food taboos like this one (or the American taboos on horse and dog) are seldom reducible to rational factors and generally primarily function as ethnic boundary markers.

It’s been suggested that the fact that pigs will scavenge human corpses given the chance has something to do with it too (I wonder if this is why dogs also seem to have such a bad rep in the Abrahamic religions)...

Comment #33: Devonian  on  07/01  at  01:37 AM

i think most animals were domesticated in the middle east, at least according to some recent genetic studies of sheep, goats, etc.
One link here.  I know there are a bunch of others, dating back to at least 1999.

Comment #34: t-ster  on  07/01  at  01:57 AM

“Biblical OCD.”  That phrase is awesome on its face, t-ster.  It also speaks to the point of this thread quite directly.  Those who are tenacious or fanatic about belief systems that have offer little tangible, practical benefit are usually nursing some serious control issues.

Comment #35: Sam Holloway  on  07/01  at  07:09 AM

Do you know who exactly in Congress we really need to work on? Because I’m not above blowing up anyone’s inbox or voicemail to get the point across that we will not tolerate compromise on contraception. The only way to reduce the alarming rate of HIV infection in young women and unplanned pregnancies is through contraception. I sincerely hope that the Dem’s who have some gumption will take your advice and force the anti-choicers real views out into the light of day for all to see.

And if conservatives want to yell and scream about another big government program, let’s do the math for those douchebags. For years they used the racist specter of the “welfare queen” to get working class white people to vote for them. To this day, their party is full of folks who think of government programs as their hard earned tax dollars going to support minorities. Throw it back on them. $12 per month for a box of condoms is a lot less than the average welfare recipient receives for a baby. If they really want to see a reduction in government spending, here’s their chance.

Comment #36: DC Fem  on  07/01  at  10:33 AM

But DC Fem,

Your reduction in government spending also comes with a reduction in the government service conservatives love best: punishing other people for doing things the conservatives don’t want them to do.

Comment #37: paul  on  07/01  at  11:40 AM

I think some here are forgetting that Obama appointed a woman from an anti-contraceptive Catholic agency to head the committee within DHS that is tasked with reducing abortions.  I really don’t see the pro-choice side winning out over the anti-contraception crowd unless we flood our representatives with phone calls as DC Fem suggests.

Comment #38: carovee  on  07/01  at  11:55 AM

Although in theory, both pro-choice and anti-choice people would be against the idea that 20% of people get abortions because “my parents” or “my husband or my partner want me to get an abortion.” I’m pro-choice,

But see, that’s why you’re pro-choice.  You want women to choose for themselves whether or not to have an abortion, and a husband or parents forcing a choice onto a woman is as bad as the government forcing a choice onto women.  This is why we are pro-choice and not “pro-abortion” as some wingnuts like to call us.

Also, keep in mind that women in this survey were allowed to select multiple reasons for their abortion.  It’s possible that parents and partners wanted the abortion, but that the woman also wanted it.  It’s also possible that women take into account other people’s advice and feelings, and there’s nothing wrong with that if they really care about that person’s opinion.  If the pregnant women think they won’t get as much support from family members, they will likely take that into account when making their own choice.  Of course coercion to have an abortion is as bad as forced child birth.  However, it’s likely that most of these cases weren’t actually coercion.

Comment #39: bananacat  on  07/01  at  12:00 PM

Catgirl’s point.

At a quick tally the numbers in the chart add up to about 750%, which means any given woman probably had half a dozen different reasons. Or overlapping ones, since “financially unable” would probably go along with “can’t leave job” or “spouse unemployed”.

And “insufficient support from husband” would probably overlap with “husband wants me to have an abortion.” Which gives me a great idea: why don’t all the forced-birthers who want to ban abortion because some women might be coerced into it start a big campaign educating men to take on an equal share of childrearing, and pressuring businesses to have more sensible leave and flextime policies that would make that possible. Then, when they’ve done that for 20 or 30 years we can take another look at the supposed coercion numbers and find some “common ground” on how to deal with them.

Comment #40: paul  on  07/01  at  01:13 PM
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