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Next entry: Phase II for Occupy Wall St. begins Previous entry: Pandagon occupies Wall St.

Community and the awesomeness of elitism in the face of haters

MusicTelevision

I really appreciated the humor and insight of this piece from Cord Jefferson on how he got it into his head that Community is a popular show, and so, even though he had never seen it, was as surprised as anyone at its sudden hiatus and no doubt cancellation. He points out that his online networks were positively obsessive about Community, giving him the impression that it's a big hit show, when it was turning over bad ratings for a network sitcom. He proposes a couple of reasons this might be that don't make sense at all---floating improbable reasons such as torrenting and there being some people who don't use the internet much but who watch TV---before settling on what I think is the sole reason that this happened to him:

While technology allows us to access news and opinions from hundreds of millions of diverse people around the world, the reality is that we cull our Twitter and Tumblr groups to match our sensibilities, just as we do with our offline friends. Many of the people I intentionally follow online like Community, and I made the mistake of assuming that my Twitter and Tumblr associates were a cross-section of America. Offline I'd never dare think that what my friends and I like is representative of everyone else's preferences. But on the internet, we've convinced ourselves we're seeing the world, while actually seeing tiny subcultures we've created around the same biases and preferences we have offline.

That last bit caused a small butthurt reaction in me---who are you calling "we", dude?---but I squelched because my life resolution is not to imitate the tedious culture of butthurtness of the internet that makes it hard to sift out legitimate criticism. It's clear that "we" is a rhetorical device, and a useful one at that, because he's probably right that this wasn't a minor brainfart of his, but a human tendency. I'd also point out that Cord may not make this assumption based off his real life friends, but that's more common than you'd think, as well. It's the "everyone else is just like me (and my friends)" phenomenon. I see it a lot when I'm blogging. I could write something like, "Women are generally socialized to be excessively apologetic", and I'm going to get a bunch of comments from women protesting, saying, "But I'm not!", not considering the possibility slightly that they could be an outlier. I can't really account for how hard it is for people in general to gauge where their tendencies or opinions fit on a spectrum, but it is a real phenomenon, and I can see how the internet makes it worse. 

So I'm pretty sure I'm somewhat unusual in that I didn't really relate to this piece, not because it isn't true---it is!---but because I'm probably a weirdo. I not only don't think my tastes are an indicator of broader American tastes, I'm fairly convinced that if I like something, the majority of Americans don't. I call it the "mediocrity rules" phenomenon, after the kickass Le Tigre song that perfectly describes it, right down to the incuriosity and outright fear of difference that keeps most people preferring the safe and uninteresting to the daring and truly creative. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, being truly interesting requires taking risks, and most people are risk-averse, especially when it comes to entertainment, which they look to as a way to soothe instead of challenge themselves. I mean, I look to it to be soothing, too, but since I have a weird personality, pablum gives me gas, so it's not soothing at all. I'm not alone in this, but those of us who enjoy a little riskiness in our entertainment are simply less common than those who don't.

This is how it just is, and until a few years ago, this was never presented to me as a problem, not really. I mean, I had a kid snarl at me in high school that I was a "New Waver", which didn't hurt my feelings so much as make me wonder how someone who was probably born in '79 or '80 and found anything that had even a whiff of hipness to it alienating learned that term and used it in 1994.  But in recent years, I've felt a shift in the zeitgeist. It's just a hunch, but it feels like the belief that mediocrity, by dint of being "populist", is somehow more pure and honorable for it. Terms like "elitist", "snob", and the dreaded "hipster" are flung around with zeal. I suppose that was always true, but now people who do that aren't just implying that you're a weirdo for having certain tastes, but that you're somehow morally inferior because you aren't one with the people or some such crap like that. It seems that mediocrity is literally beginning to rule. This Tracy Jeanne Rosenthal piece on excreable Lana Del Rey is a good example; it's all sneer at "hipsters" for disliking Del Ray for being "inauthentic", as if there's a monolithic hipster view of authenticity and monolithic hipster hatred of pop music, both of which are easily disproved by a trot through the various rock clubs of Williamsburg that feature more than their fair share of gleeful love of pop-ness as a concept. Could it just be that Del Rey sucks? Not all pop music sucks; I hardly imagine you'll meet many hipsters who denounce Prince simply because he's pop. It is true that there's a streak in indie rock of mistaking quiet for quality and earthy for deep, but it's a little more complex of a problem than simple rejection of anything "pop", nor is it a monolithic tendency. Some music snobs (*cough*) dislike that trend strongly, but we're not going to conflate it with old-fashioned elitism, which still has value. If anything, a lot of it is less elitist, more like making indie music for people who stopped caring when they had kids. Elevating something as better for garnering mass appeal by being mediocre pablum isn't any better than disliking something just because it's popular, and it may be worse in a way because you have to endure a lot of stuff that just sucks. 

Or maybe I'm overreacting to a tendency that's simply common on the internet, where a few loudmouths who have a vendetta against the risky, the cool, and the bohemian have had an outsized effect on the conversation and caused everyone to tiptoe around the commonly accepted idea that white bread is an insult for a reason. 

Anywhere, here's hoping that "Community", a show that has really been fun to watch take a number of risks without a net, at least gets to finish out this season in style instead of simply being yanked without any kind of closure, as Britta might say. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:16 PM • (113) Comments

Elevating something as better for garnering mass appeal by being mediocre pablum isn’t any better than disliking something just because it’s popular, and it may be worse in a way because you have to endure a lot of stuff that just sucks.

I don’t know if I agree that it’s worse.  I’ve known many people over the years, myself included, who endured incredibly horrible indie/avant garde music, books, and movies because that’s what you’re “supposed” to like, not because it’s actually any good.  Those things do eventually fall out of favor, just like the worst examples of pop culture, because there’s a limited amount of time that most people can pretend to genuinely like something that sucks.

Comment #1: keshmeshi  on  11/16  at  07:36 PM

Noooo!

I am so mad that Community is being cancelled.  I rarely ever watch sitcoms, but I have always loved this one.  I’ve tried many, many times to like sitcoms and it always fails.  Except for this one.  I guess I’ll just go back to not watch any sitcoms at all.  I guess that’s why it’s getting cancelled though, precisely because it is so different than all the others.  I’m not the same as the general public so tv networks don’t cater to me.  Back to just crime dramas and food competitions for me.  At least I’m mainstream in those categories.

Comment #2: bananacat  on  11/16  at  07:48 PM

Production is continuing and NBC says all 22 eps will air.  Also, I’ve read some stuff about the show’s owner - Sony - wanting to get to at least 80 eps for syndication purposes and will likely lean on NBC to give the show at least a fourth season.

But who knows for sure.


.

Comment #3: spork_incident  on  11/16  at  07:54 PM

Community is pretty much my favorite thing on TV right now (although every time they tell a rape joke I cringe and cry out “why???”), but it getting yanked was no surprise to me…I always presume that my tastes are weird and not shared by others. In fact, I actively look for hidden treasures in television and film, probably much the way you do with music, because I know they’re out there (plus, it’s fun to discover awesome stuff no one you know has ever heard of). It seems odd to me that people would actively seek out mediocrity…“But doesn’t everyone secretly believe their tastes are unique and awesome?” I ask myself…and maybe that’s my mistake. The aspiration for homogeneity seems dangerous to me, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

Comment #4: Renee_in_Mich  on  11/16  at  09:01 PM

I always revert to my favourite quote about art : “The only true critic is time”.  What shows will still be watched and remembered and loved in 10-15 years?  They are the great ones.

Comment #5: Aussiesmurf  on  11/16  at  09:08 PM

Conservatives have been hating on anything quirky or intelligent for decades, so it seems obvious that anti-intellectualism should be coming back into ascendancy, but I think you’re right that that big question is who ever thought a) that they were smart and had good taste and b) that therefor their tastes were universal? I’m much more use to the opposite, where it would be sort of embarrassing for someone to discover that the little thing they like was also like by millions of other people (and some people would stop liking anything that got popular because that proved it had gone downhill, or that their original judgement had been mistaken.)

Maybe it’s been the waves of Geek Chic during the late 90s and the Oughts, when it briefly became possible to believe that lots of people cared what unconventional smart people had to say.

Comment #6: paul  on  11/16  at  09:31 PM

Community always seemed to me to be a show that used gimmicks and references to cover up a lack of compelling characters or plotlines (unlike, say, Arrested Development which used them brilliantly) so I won’t be sad to see it go.

As for the point in general, music has veered towards the blandly tasteful middle for years now, which is a predictable reaction to increased commercialism in pop music. If licensing becomes a greater part of where bands make their money and films, TV ads, etc. choose bland and mediocre songs as a rule (which many do) then it’s the medicority that’s going to prevail because they’re the ones who are going to be able to afford to do it full-time.

TV on the other hand is a bad example because, if anything, the success of networks like AMC and HBO has led to a greater remit and willingness to take risks than ever. Same with films. The vast majority of yours and my favourite films over the last few years have been funded by major studios, albeit usually through a subdivision like Fox Searchlight, Pixar or Sony Pictures Classics.

Comment #7: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  11/16  at  09:37 PM

that big question is who ever thought a) that they were smart and had good taste and b) that therefor their tastes were universal?

My mom, for one, who, not coincidentally, also is also of the “non-Republican/Christians are just rebelling against what they know to be true” types.  That mentality bleeds into every other facet of a person’s way of thinking.  I recall her attempting to convince me to stop listening to metal bands in high school by stating matter-of-factly that her music (Lawrence Welk and gospel, basically) were obviously superior.  I, not caring to continue that discussion, made an offhand comment about tastes being subjective, causing her to go into a ranty meltdown about subjectivity not existing.  She honestly seemed to believe that I didn’t actually like the music I did, and was just rebelling against the One True Musical Taste.

Comment #8: schism  on  11/16  at  09:44 PM

I am afraid I have occasionally caught myself saying “hipster” when I mean “pointlessly contrarian,” which annoys me, because “pointlessly contrarian” is both more accurate, less ambiguous, and more fun to say. I am sorry, Amanda! I will try to be better!

Also, defensively liking bad things just because they’re popular and defensively disliking good things just because they’re popular are equally annoying: such behavior is unnecessarily defensive, frequently results in being the sort of amoral asshole who gets more outraged over taste judgements than value judgments, is uncritically reactionary, and is often employed as a form of bullying by people who don’t actually know what they’re talking about (my ex, for example, was a Serious Music Snob (with almost the direct opposite tastes of Amanda), and one of his big complaints about Music These Days was his apparent belief that nobody ever sang about sex or drinking until the latter half of the twentieth century. As a totally non-serious music non-snob with an interest in history, I have somehow managed to amass a diverse collection of slutty drinking songs written between the eleventh and nineteenth centuries, but it was never a good idea to get in between my ex and one of his rants about how superior he was to other people).

If you’re going to actually be a proper snob, go right ahead, but I think by now the idea of “snobbery” is much more closely related to sneering, bullying posturing than it is to actually having overeducated taste in something, and I don’t see that going away anytime soon.

Comment #9: thecynicalromantic  on  11/16  at  09:53 PM

Heh, oh yeah…

Three cheers for elitism…

/me sips wild, spicy, tulsi tisane

PINKY…RAISED

Comment #10: shah8  on  11/16  at  10:46 PM

Actually, thinking on a more serious note…

I think it’s best not to let the essential notion that elitism is about confidence, about reassurance, about norms.  There are many ways to spin that.

I could not care less that I don’t like what other people like, and that I like what other people don’t like.  It’s simply a matter of my own confidence in my own aesthetic experience.  No matter how you spin that, it makes me antisocial and a wierdo, because you simply cannot make your own choices an island of your own preferences in the context of the human crowd that’s always seeking, that’s always judging.

Where poseurs go wrong is that they seek to have all of the aspects of confidence, even the contradictory ones—my own taste is great because look at Sal’s choices, and Kim, and Terry!  I’ll always love this stuff because it’s so great…soforthandon Then we get to see autopsies of their inevitably false assumptions (no seriously, you just kinda…assumed that since you and the people you talked to thought it was so great that everyone else loves it too?).

/me shakes head.

Life on the tube for me is…OMG!  This is so awesome!  Everyone’s gonna hate it, though, better enjoy every last bit before it’s taken off-air!

But then, I have taste.  Not fashion taste.  I just know more or less what I want.  I can see something new and think I want that as well.  Entertainment that refuses to make loaded aesthetic choices is hot water to me, and not Dahongpao oolong tea.

Comment #11: shah8  on  11/16  at  11:10 PM

And yeah, this is and odd form of snobbery. I mean…it is still a show on a major network. Sort of like people who thumb their nose at Dave Matthew’s Band only to listen to something pretty damned similar. Or this vomit-inducing sentence I heard the other day: “I guess you could say I’m a literature snob. I love Chuck Palahniuk.”

And as my music majoring roommate was found of telling me “you can’t be a music snob if you can’t even read music.”

Comment #12: John Joel Glanton  on  11/16  at  11:36 PM

It’s a midseason shuffle. it isn’t cancelled.

Six Seasons and a movie.

Comment #13: karpad  on  11/17  at  12:41 AM

Six seasons and a movie!

:-p This isn’t a failure of Community, it’s a failure of network television and - to a broader extent - market capitalism.  Here you’ve got an engaging cast, a talented production crew, a wildly enthusiastic audience and you can’t put them together to make a buck?  Give me a break.

The system as we know it enforces mediocrity and common-denominatorism because it’s cheap.  Why give people talented musicians with exciting and experimental styles when you can throw up American Idol and parade a bunch of wanna-be hacks to sing music you’ve had the license to for 20 years?  It’s the same reason radio stations will play the same 20 songs on a loop for years at a time.

People who complain about snobbery aren’t even the real problem.  Everyone gets snobby about their own pet projects.  My college buddies will roll their eyes when I can’t remember my local football team’s backup QB.  My girlfriend will look at me like I’m stupid if I can’t recognize a particular designer brand of clothing.  My boss thinks I’m from another planet because I can’t fix my own car.  But when I get wonky about taste in video games, they’re all like “Whoa, what’s a JRPG?  I just like games where you shoot people.”

But sports, clothes, cars, games - these are all things where you can *have* a niche.  TV is a lot harder, because the show takes up such a rare and valuable broadcast real estate and you need a certain critical mass audience before the product becomes justifiable.  Community isn’t going to make it because NBC isn’t able to distribute a product to just three million people.  That’s not Community’s problem, it’s NBC’s problem.  When you have all the components of a sale-able product, but you can’t bring it to market, you’ve goofed up as a business.  And the last ten years of television have been object lesson after object lesson in TV producers simply being unable to bring these niche products to market profitably.

I like to think we’re watching a lot of experimental projects pave the way toward solving this problem - Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog, Felicia Day’s “The Guild”, some of the higher budget fan-fics.  It would be nice to see Community get to the point where it could self-finance and wouldn’t need to be on NBC’s yoke.  I like to think that’s the kind of future that could accommodate niche shows like Community a bit better.

Comment #14: Zifnab  on  11/17  at  01:12 AM

Anyone saddened by the hold (which doesnt go into effect until after December 8)  should watch Donald Glover’s movie, Mystery Team.  Its streaming on Netflix. 

Comment #15: pasteymachine  on  11/17  at  02:44 AM

Also, this thread is SO oedibal.

Comment #16: pasteymachine  on  11/17  at  04:19 AM

Terms like hipster (mostly) and elitist, and snob are thrown around because of people trying to tell us bad music is good, boring music is interesting, and acting like we are the dumbasses for not being one of the five people who give a shit about whatever band you are raving about, while at the same time acting like the fact of something being popular (like, say, the Black Eyed Peas) makes it lowest common denominator shit.

Most of that stuff is unpopular for a very good reason. I know that almost every time I click through to a video that you post on Fridays from a band that no one has ever heard of, I usually last about 30 seconds before I want to drive a railroad spike through my ears.

We don’t think you are a weirdo for having different tastes, we think you (hipster D-bags in general) are colossal jerks for the generally snotty and rude way that you express your different tastes. That, and the general up is down-ism of music snobbery (like a few years back when you tried to argue that rap was more welcoming to women performers than rock, and then were unable to name 3 female rappers that were both current and popular) is what many of us find annoying.

I like your writing about politics and a lot of pop culture, but my god you can be tiresome about music when you are in snob mode.

Comment #17: Bruce from Missouri  on  11/17  at  05:29 AM

@Comment #17: Bruce from Missouri on 11/17 at 04:29 AM

I know that almost every time I click through to a video that you post on Fridays from a band that no one has ever heard of, I usually last about 30 seconds before I want to drive a railroad spike through my ears.

Really? I usually enjoy the Friday music vids, and often love them. The Friday music videos are a significant part of why I frequent this blog. So speak for yourself.

Comment #18: atheist  on  11/17  at  07:34 AM

I always thought that the reason hipsters were reviled was for the obvious way their appreciation is tied solely to exclusivity rather than quality.  Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed that frisson of liking something before everyone I know suddenly gets turned on by it, but it’s kind of shallow to look for new pop culture items for that reason alone.

Oh, and if you want to try to keep Community on the air you can go here: www.save-community.com/

Six seasons and a movie!

Comment #19: Andy  on  11/17  at  08:03 AM

while at the same time acting like the fact of something being popular (like, say, the Black Eyed Peas) makes it lowest common denominator shit.

Many people ofmAmanda and my generation had a big musical awakening in their teens when they realize that there’s all this music out there that isn’t played in the radio that turns out to be SO MUCH BETTER than the stuff that is marketed as “popular.”  I am sorry you didn’t have this same realization.

And I don’t think it’s unfair to point out that the same goes for movies and books—it is certainly true that the most popular ones ARE LCD shit—eg, Transformers, Left Behind, The Celestine Prophecy, etc.

But you also see in hipsterdom an appropriation of mainstream pop culture that they do appreciate (eg, hipster fixations on MY Little Pony or other popo culture totems from their youth). It’s much more complicated than you’re letting on. I think part of the thing is that any kind of aesthetic taste requires making an effort, and it’s easy to resent someone who’s clearly made an effort to find something they like when most everyone else is content to just consume what’s placed in front of them.

Comment #20: Tyro  on  11/17  at  08:25 AM

@17:  Yeah, the reason that stuff like that is unpopular is because it doesn’t appeal to the unadventurous, or the dull. It’s the same reason why there are dozens of artists in pop, modern rock, and country these days are that are almost literally indistinguishable. (Here I would have to credit whichever commenter came up with the term Nickelstank Park on this blog. I think it was BlackBloc, but I may be wrong.) I literally could not care less what you think about my taste in music (I imagine most people here feel the same), because I know what kind of music I like. I certainly don’t enjoy every genre that Amanda does, but I generally like the music she posts. Snobbery can extend to many genres, as I would call myself a metal snob, and in any genre there are going to be bands that innovate, and ones that simply recycle the same old crap every two years into a new album. How do you think AC/DC got so popular? They haven’t had an original album since 1976.

Comment #21: progrocker  on  11/17  at  09:15 AM

I had a discussion with an acquaintance of mine who is a writer in Hollywood about Community. She was comparing it to Modern Family and found it wanting. I’ve watched Modern Family, and I appreciate the classical farcical structure of the writing, but it’s so classical that every joke is telegraphed. I am never surprised by the jokes. Community surprises me, and that’s what I’m looking for. And it should get six seasons and a movie just for the following exchange:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2odOu0Oguo

Comment #22: maurinsky  on  11/17  at  09:28 AM

I not only don’t think my tastes are an indicator of broader American tastes,...

That may be true for music and other pop culture, but I’ve seen you extrapolate you own tastes or habits to the general population on other things. I’m remembering the “Do people actually drink milk?” or “Everybody has a smartphone now” threads.

Comment #23: Livi  on  11/17  at  09:48 AM

@21: “It’s the same reason why there are dozens of artists in pop, modern rock, and country these days are that are almost literally indistinguishable. (Here I would have to credit whichever commenter came up with the term Nickelstank Park on this blog. I think it was BlackBloc, but I may be wrong.)”

The above comment and the fact that much of the hipster-appreciated indie music focuses more on songwriting ability and lyrics, rather than vocal skill of the lead singer - Vampire Weekend comes to mind, for example - leads to an interesting hypothesis… are most hipsters tone deaf? It would certainly explain the claim that disparate, albeit mainstream, bands sound “literally indistinguishable”.

Comment #24: Theaetetus  on  11/17  at  10:02 AM

Anywhere, here’s hoping that “Community”, a show that has really been fun to watch take a number of risks without a net, at least gets to finish out this season in style instead of simply being yanked without any kind of closure, as Britta might say.

Don’t you mean Abed?

Also, thinking your tastes are OMG! SO DIFFERENT! from everyone else is just the flip side of thinking they’re the same, with a heaping side dish of self-congratulation.  It’s also a fallacy.  You just don’t notice where your tastes line up with everyone else because it doesn’t fit your self-image. 

I suppose that was always true, but now people who do that aren’t just implying that you’re a weirdo for having certain tastes, but that you’re somehow morally inferior because you aren’t one with the people or some such crap like that.

No, hon, they’re implying you’re acting like a giant, smug asshole for saying stuff like this:

I not only don’t think my tastes are an indicator of broader American tastes, I’m fairly convinced that if I like something, the majority of Americans don’t. I call it the “mediocrity rules” phenomenon, after the kickass Le Tigre song that perfectly describes it, right down to the incuriosity and outright fear of difference that keeps most people preferring the safe and uninteresting to the daring and truly creative.

Comment #25: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  10:04 AM

I would suggested Community‘s problem is less the random-sample-that-isn’t, but that the way we measure popularity is flawed:  It intentionally skips segments of the population and then blithely assumes that the untested segments feel the same as the tested ones ala Rassmussen polling.

Then again, I remember when they pulled Static Shock from the air - one of the highest rated and award-winning kids’ shows - for poor ratings.  While it was the highest rated show on their lineup. x-x   There’s literally dozens (maybe hundreds?) of such examples.

Comment #26: Crissa  on  11/17  at  10:05 AM

There’s also the problem of market size over-estimation:  That since the total watching population is X and one show draws 40% of X, the largest group, should be what you aim at.  And then they place their show against the first one, and then wonder why they don’t also get 40% of X - well, it’s because the market for any topic is only so large.  If 40% of the market likes chocolate, then your market size for chocolate is probably closer to 40% of the total X, not the total of X

If one flavor is taking up such a huge percentage, competing with that flavor is a losing - not a winning - prospect.  But proven markets are always what investors want, even when at saturation.  This is why more marketing is spent on making teen games for boys than teen boys spend on video games.

PS, I didn’t actually like Community, but this may be because I don’t like sitcoms.

Comment #27: Crissa  on  11/17  at  10:13 AM

Can I still say shit about poseurs?

Comment #28: norbizness  on  11/17  at  10:28 AM

That’s why it’s better to be a curmudgeon; you’re not expected to know who the fuck Lana Del Rey is, because if you did, would be kicked out of the curmudgeon club. And also, the only way to energize Community is for the college’s hallway to constantly be on fire and John Goodman screaming “I’LL SHOW YOU THE LIFE OF THE MIND” at one of those undernourished leads.

Comment #29: norbizness  on  11/17  at  10:33 AM

Livi, in the former case, Amanda was astounded at the amount of milk and milk products that the “Average American” consumes and that she didn’t drink milk directly(not that milk drinking was some sort of weird thing to do, re: judybrowni and clipping the claws of pet cats),

I’m genuinely surprised at how much dairy we consume.  What’s that about?  Do people just straight up drink milk?  That’s really weird.

And she went on to explain that she doesn’t drink milk, didn’t even when she was pre-pubertal:

<blockquoe>Maybe milk-drinking is a Midwest thing? That doesn’t make much sense—-coffee-drinking is such a thing in the Midwest, one of my absolute favorite things about it.  I think the last time I drank a glass of milk, I was pre-pubescent. It’s a kid thing to do, I thought.  It’s definitely an American fetish; most of the world is lactose intolerant—-lactose tolerance evolved mainly in Europeans—-and so this notion that it’s “good for you” seems more a product of dairy marketing than anything else.

Even as a kid, drinking milk started to feel gross to me. It’s not really a proper beverage.  It feels more like liquid food.</blockquote>

and I don’t remember her writing to the effect that “Everybody has a smartphone now”, but she did write this:

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but like I said, I’m crowd-sourcing this one.  What are some of the changes, big and small, that have crept up on you because of cell phones?

 

Comment #30: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  10:36 AM

Comment #30: Yeah, I know, I read it. Saying “that’s weird” shows that she thought her own milk consumption was the norm. My point, you have made it.

Comment #31: Livi  on  11/17  at  10:38 AM

“No, hon, they’re implying you’re acting like a giant, smug asshole for saying stuff like this:”

That’s got to be one of the most ironic troll comments I’ve ever seen; “no, hon”, has got to be one of the most giant smug assholish (not to mention misogynist) ways to start a sentence there is.

Comment #32: JMPEsq  on  11/17  at  10:39 AM

Hey, I did say last time that Amanda and I have a lot in common.  wink

Comment #33: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  10:40 AM

the only way to energize Community is for the college’s hallway to constantly be on fire and John Goodman screaming “I’LL SHOW YOU THE LIFE OF THE MIND” at one of those undernourished leads.

That would be fucking awesome.  It’s also exactly the sort of thing I can see Community doing.

Comment #34: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  10:45 AM

is for the college’s hallway to constantly be on fire and John Goodman screaming “I’LL SHOW YOU THE LIFE OF THE MIND” at one of those undernourished leads.

I think that’s episode 12, and if it isn’t, it could be, which is why I love that show.

Comment #35: Andy  on  11/17  at  10:47 AM

I find Amanda’s point a lot easier to relate to and understand if I mentally replace every mention of music with mention of books. Every time I hear someone claim that they’re a “bookworm” because they’ve read a Pahlaniuk novel (c.f. post upthread), I die a little. America’s reading tastes are truly atrocious, and even literary fiction isn’t nearly as adventurous as it could (and I think should) be.

Comment #36: Jerry Vinokurov  on  11/17  at  10:48 AM

As for the point in general, music has veered towards the blandly tasteful middle for years now

Yes, probably between twenty and fifty thousand years now.

Comment #37: Brian  on  11/17  at  11:01 AM

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but like I said, I’m crowd-sourcing this one.  What are some of the changes, big and small, that have crept up on you because of cell phones?

But most everyone has a cell phone, and even in poor countries, they are extremely common. It works in the othe direction—all the precious little Luddite snowflakes chime into those threads with, “I don’t even have have a cell phone! This thread is insensitive and exclusionary!”

Comment #38: Tyro  on  11/17  at  11:07 AM

Comment #38: I get it, cell phone thread = bad example.

Comment #39: Livi  on  11/17  at  11:11 AM

By the time I’ve latched onto something in mass culture, it’s usually been over the hump for at least a few years. I agree that indie has gone horribly soft, but I’m finding it difficult to care about that. I don’t have kids, but I definitely fall into the “stopped caring” category a long time ago—because I no longer wish to be a judgmental asshole about music that I don’t like. I consider it kind of a big step in the “growing out of being a 15-year-old white manchild” process. Shitting on other peoples’ aesthetic choices seems like a waste of energy that could be much better spent creating my own stuff. It’s a lot harder to justify telling someone their music sucks after a gig when more than half the crowd yelled “you SUCK” at my band. That hasn’t actually happened since about 1998, but it was a lesson worth learning.

Comment #40: keirdubois  on  11/17  at  11:15 AM

The above comment and the fact that much of the hipster-appreciated indie music focuses more on songwriting ability and lyrics, rather than vocal skill of the lead singer - Vampire Weekend comes to mind, for example - leads to an interesting hypothesis… are most hipsters tone deaf? It would certainly explain the claim that disparate, albeit mainstream, bands sound “literally indistinguishable”.

I don’t mind a singer having a less than perfect voice. It adds personality to the music. I don’t know that it even has anything to do with lyrics or songwriting, either. I’m perfectly happy to listen to a less than stellar singer as long as they sound like they’re enthusiastically making the music they actually wanted to make (and having fun). I’m a big fan of Messthetics’ archival releases of DIY bands for just that reason. Most of these people never got within a thousand miles of a record contract, so you know what you’re hearing is the pure, unadulterated sound of enthusiastic music lovers. You know you’re going to hear something you’ve never heard before and you usually discover some wonderfully weirdo band like The Homosexuals, or The Swell Maps, or Animals and Men, or The Raincoats.

Plus, of course, there’s the sublime pleasure of digging through the crates at a good record shop (if you can still find one). I think what people deride as “music snobs” are just folks who are actively engaged in loving music. Taste may be subjective, but it can also be developed and refined. People aren’t necessarily stupid or wrong for listening to Top 40 stuff, they’re just incurious, which is generally something I can’t celebrate.

I think when we say mainstream bands sound indistinguishable it’s because popular music has become so homogenized that it’s erased whatever traces used to identify genres. Country music is especially guilty of this. If anything, the it’s the proudly, contemptuously conservative lyrics that identify a country song, and not its identification with a long history of actual hillbilly folk music. And when you lose those, can you really tell me the difference between Kelly Clarkson or Taylor Swift? Is wearing cowboy hat in public all it takes? Most popular artists are singing someone else’s songs to someone else’s music. They’re interchangeable because they record company could have plugged anyone else into the equation and produced nearly the same song.

Comment #41: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  11:23 AM

(my apologies if this gets double posted)

The above comment and the fact that much of the hipster-appreciated indie music focuses more on songwriting ability and lyrics, rather than vocal skill of the lead singer - Vampire Weekend comes to mind, for example - leads to an interesting hypothesis… are most hipsters tone deaf? It would certainly explain the claim that disparate, albeit mainstream, bands sound “literally indistinguishable”.

I don’t mind a singer having a less than perfect voice. It adds personality to the music. I don’t know that it even has anything to do with lyrics or songwriting, either. I’m perfectly happy to listen to a less than stellar singer as long as they sound like they’re enthusiastically making the music they actually wanted to make (and having fun). I’m a big fan of Messthetics’ archival releases of DIY bands for just that reason. Most of these people never got within a thousand miles of a record contract, so you know what you’re hearing is the pure, unadulterated sound of enthusiastic music lovers. You know you’re going to hear something you’ve never heard before and you usually discover some wonderfully weirdo band like The Homosexuals, or The Swell Maps, or Animals and Men, or The Raincoats.

Plus, of course, there’s the sublime pleasure of digging through the crates at a good record shop (if you can still find one). I think what people deride as “music snobs” are just folks who are actively engaged in loving music. Taste may be subjective, but it can also be developed and refined. People aren’t necessarily stupid or wrong for listening to Top 40 stuff, they’re just incurious, which is generally something I can’t celebrate.

I think when we say mainstream bands sound indistinguishable it’s because popular music has become so homogenized that it’s erased whatever traces used to identify genres. Country music is especially guilty of this. If anything, the it’s the proudly, contemptuously conservative lyrics that identify a country song, and not its identification with a long history of actual hillbilly folk music. And when you lose those, can you really tell me the difference between Kelly Clarkson or Taylor Swift? Is wearing cowboy hat in public all it takes? Most popular artists are singing someone else’s songs to someone else’s music. They’re interchangeable because they record company could have plugged anyone else into the equation and produced nearly the same song.

Comment #42: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  11:25 AM

It’s funny, I often cringe at Amanda’s music choices and consider them mediocre. I guess tastes differ.

Comment #43: loosey  on  11/17  at  11:27 AM

Sorry, livi, but let me say it again so that you can understand:

Amanda was astounded at the amount of milk and milk products that the “Average American” consumes

And I don’t see where she thought that not drinking milk was weird, just that she doesn’t do it herself.

But, hey, if you don’t like what she writes here, nobody is forcing you to come to this blog and read it, if it makes you feel better to ignore pandagon.net, then do so with my blessing.

Comment #44: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  11:28 AM

<quote>And I don’t see where she thought that drinking milk was weird</quote>

As quoted above:
<quote>Do people just straight up drink milk?  That’s really weird.
It’s a kid thing to do…
It’s definitely an American fetish…
It’s not really a proper beverage.  It feels more like liquid food.</quote>

Difficult to read those any other way.

Comment #45: Theaetetus  on  11/17  at  11:34 AM

Comment #44: Fuck you, could you be more condescending? I did not say I don’t like what she writes. I’m well aware I don’t have to read here, but I like most of what is written. “And I don’t see where she thought that not drinking milk was weird, just that she doesn’t do it herself.” It was in the quote you noted in your own comment. Perhaps you are the one without reading comprehension.

Comment #46: Livi  on  11/17  at  11:40 AM

@40 - I would spend less time shitting on other people’s aesthetic choices if American culture wasn’t awash in so much mediocre bullshit while good art tends to get ignored. I stopped caring about my own musical success years ago, but I have friends who have put years of their lives into making amazing music and touring in support of that and don’t break even or get much recognition, while the muzak system at my office continually shits out a Pandora stream of autotuned dance pop indistinguishable from a ringtone and saccharine ballads that are too weak for a children’s cereal commercial.

Also, get off my lawn!  lousy kids grumble mumble….

Comment #47: Jimmy  on  11/17  at  11:43 AM

Dammit.

I definitely fall into the “stopped caring” category a long time ago—because I no longer wish to be a judgmental asshole about music that I don’t like. I consider it kind of a big step in the “growing out of being a 15-year-old white manchild” process. Shitting on other peoples’ aesthetic choices seems like a waste of energy

I think most “music snobs” just really want to share music they’ve found and love. Yes, there’s derision of stuff “that sucks”, but I think it’s mostly just that people who love something want to let other people know about it. That’s why Amanda writes pop culture stuff and why I and countless others started music blogging.

I’m always amazed that Eleven Pond aren’t remembered as one of the greatest bands of the 80’s, or why a national day of mourning wasn’t declared when Sleater-Kinney broke up. Why isn’t everyone listening to Blouse yet? I don’t know why people have the tastes they do, or just accept whatever the media feeds them. I think of it a lot like atheism. Saying “I’m an atheist” and “I really dig the Taj Mahal Travellers” both get you weird looks and the assumption that because you espouse one, you’re putting down everything someone else believes or likes. And in a way, it’s true. Taste is a choice. You only have so much time to enjoy and experience things so you exclude they stuff that doesn’t get you off.

Comment #48: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  11:45 AM

I will say that this is the only time I’ve seen the word elitism used alongside popular culture.

Can a person be a casual dining establishment snob? “TGI Fridays rocks and Applebee’s SUCKS!” That sounds like some awesome troll snobbery.

Comment #49: John Joel Glanton  on  11/17  at  11:49 AM

Expanding on #42 - I think an interesting voice is a much more enjoyable listen than what is considered a “good singer” these days, i.e. the Simon Cowell-approved style of trying to hit every note possible while sounding like a dying rabbit. I would much rather listen to someone like Kathleen Hanna or D. Boon who, while being terrible singers in the American Idol sense, are really amazing singers.

I should probably add another get off my lawn here.

Comment #50: Jimmy  on  11/17  at  11:51 AM

@47: Fuckin’ kids these days! I know. But I heard that Jonathan Segel from Camper Van Beethoven used to (or maybe still does) work at Pandora. Camper and Cracker have been my yardstick for good bands who’ve struggled to keep working in recent decades because of the way the industry changed. One of my favorite shows ever was a Cracker gig where David Lowery led the crowd in a “we did NOT give Mariah Carey eighty million bucks!” chant, for about 20 minutes (this was about 10 years ago when IIRC Carey’s payoff to quit Virgin basically bankrupted their support for smaller acts on the label). The guys in those bands work their asses off, and I’m sure they don’t do it half as hard as lots of other bands out there.

And hey, shit on other people’s aesthetics all you want! I never said you or Amanda or anyone else couldn’t—especially if it’s funny and true. I just meant that for me personally it was becoming detrimental to my creative output. I mean, I’ve wanted to be Elvis Costello for years—I can gripe about Coldplay Patrol and Nickelstank Park all day—but then that’s a day where I didn’t write a song (whether it’s a song that gripes about those bands, or a song that doesn’t).

Also, I was just checking the lawn to see if it was really lawn or grasstroturf. You never can tell these days.

Comment #51: keirdubois  on  11/17  at  11:54 AM

Egnu @48 points well taken. I meant that, for me personally, I had to make a distinction between enthusiasm and derision. When my personal scale tipped too far into derision, I had to step back a bit and remember that it’s all about finding stuff to love and share rather than hate and sneer at. Again, process of growing out of teenage white dudebro-hood, I hope.

Comment #52: keirdubois  on  11/17  at  11:58 AM

America’s reading tastes are truly atrocious, and even literary fiction isn’t nearly as adventurous as it could (and I think should) be.

Eh. I think literary fiction is dying as a popular art form as it becomes more abstract. The reading tastes of America’s intellectuals are gravitating more towards non-fiction. It’s not that we aren’t intellectually adventurous, it’s that literary fiction is no longer a cultural force, much like written verse poetry has retreated from the public sphere in favor of its vibrant life in academia among poet-scholars.

Comment #53: Tyro  on  11/17  at  12:08 PM

Comment #44: Fuck you, could you be more condescending?

Yes, Amanda finds that milk isn’t to her taste, therefore, saying it’s weird is somehow a smack in the face of all the non-kid Americans who drink milk.

It’s not really a proper beverage.  It feels more like liquid food.</quote>

Difficult to read those any other way.

That’s her personal reaction to milk.  If I said that I thought that walnuts tasted like glued bitter sawdust, would you say that I have indicated that it’s ‘weird’ to eat walnuts, as Mother Avenger did?

Comment #54: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  12:15 PM

Indeed. Still, it’s fun to slag on something that really deserves it. Reviews of something you hate are always way easier to write, and usually a lot funnier, than writing about something you love.

And Camper Van Beethoven rules. I think my girlfriend was stalking David Lowery for a while.

They did the Mariah Carey chant for us, too. But my favorite story comes from when we’d gone to a Camper/Cracker show in New York once when an incredibly drunken fan kept yelling for them to play White Riot</a>, finally climbing on stage and leaving a note for David on his amp. David read it to the crowd: “Play that Clash song for Joe Schermie”, pointing out that they had in fact <i>just finished playing White Riot and that Joe Schermie was the somewhat recently deceased guy from Three Dog Night and definitely not Joe Strummer, the very recently deceased guy from the Clash.

Comment #55: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  12:18 PM

You no longer have to hide your distaste of something in literary fiction these days, you can simply write a non-fiction book about it and it won’t be censored. Also, my personal theory is that all the video games, television shows and such can offer better paid jobs for talented writers.

Comment #56: loosey  on  11/17  at  12:24 PM

I kind of agree with Bruce. 

Yes, Amanda finds that milk isn’t to her taste, therefore, saying it’s weird is somehow a smack in the face of all the non-kid Americans who drink milk.

Ok, but in the original post Amanda didn’t say milk isn’t to her taste (where milk=popular music).  She said milk is crappy.  And she’s just weird in that, unlike other people, she doesn’t find crappy stuff pleasurable.  I don’t see how you can call something crap without implying that those who like it are not just different but inferior to your non-crap liking self. 

So sure, people who like mainstream music aimed at the middle probably do act as though it makes them superior, but the people who love music generally ignored by the mainstream do the exact same thing. 

 

Comment #57: carovee  on  11/17  at  12:24 PM

It’s like the Bizarro Cure once said, Why Can’t You Be Me?

Comment #58: norbizness  on  11/17  at  12:26 PM

I think Zifnab is right on with the difference between TV and other interests.  All it takes to discover great indie video games, obscure foreign sports, currently unpopular regional cuisine, and tons of other things is internet access and a computer with a browser.

TV, over-the-air networks in particular, have gotten horrible with churning out shlock show after shlock show.  From what I’ve seen, ABC is particularly bad about this (how many failed sitcoms have they launched in the last decade?  I’ve lost count.), but even some public television channels have gotten into the habit of mainly airing one or two types of programs.  Seriously, Create, did we need another cooking show?

Comment #59: LemonCat  on  11/17  at  12:38 PM

#57 I just don’t get the mindset described in your last paragraph. Who feels superior because they enjoy a certain form of entertainment? Who views enjoying x over y as…an achievement?

Comment #60: John Joel Glanton  on  11/17  at  12:41 PM

Comment #60: John Joel Glanton - You really have never had someone look at you like you have two heads when you say you like or don’t like X? Hell, I’ve done that to my own husband when he brings out the Michael Bolton.

Comment #61: Livi  on  11/17  at  12:46 PM

The reading tastes of America’s intellectuals are gravitating more towards non-fiction. It’s not that we aren’t intellectually adventurous, it’s that literary fiction is no longer a cultural force…

I have to say that this comment contains some of the most ridiculously pompous drivel I’ve read in a long time.

I mean, poet-scholars?  Bwahahahahahah.

But no, “America’s intellectuals” (you miserable wankers) might have given up on fiction and airily declared it SO OVER, but there’s plenty of awfully good stuff out there, and more coming out all the time.  Literary fiction may no longer be a “cultural force” in your culture, but that just means it’s moved on to someone else’s.

Comment #62: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  12:56 PM

I’d like to know where Cord Jefferson lives…I was born in the SF Bay Area and moved to Kentucky in my late teens (have escaped a couple times, but keep coming back because I have a really close-nit family, but looking to escape again). Anyway, you, Amanda, grew up in small-town Texas. Of course, you (and post-16 me) realized that what we like (not saying that We are a WE in our likes) is not what “everybody” likes…IRL & on the interwebs. If I had stayed in the Bay Area, my assumptions might have been different, but the culture shock knocked that right out of my particular set of assumptions/privileges.

Consuming art and popculture has always been a mixed bag, people can like both (in part) and still have good taste. The people waiting on the dock in the New York harbor, waiting with twi-hard like fever for the next installation of Dickens lastest serial novel prolly also consumed their fair-share of soapy contemporary fiction (heck, Dickens kinda fills that bill too), but I’m also sure that at least one serialized novel addict on the dock also read “The Morgans” or a similar edgy (now beloved of American Lit Ph.D. candidates because its one of those novels that was lost for over a hundred years, rediscovered by a graduate student whose thesis then turned into a book deal and of course, a tenure track job).

Comment #63: Thealogian  on  11/17  at  01:05 PM

there’s plenty of awfully good stuff out there, and more coming out all the time

The same can be said for poetry— there’s more poetry being written and published now than ever before. It’s just that fewer people care about it than ever before. Some art forms are played out. Literary fiction is one of them, along with poetry, Grecian urns, and oil painting portraits. I don’t think the public affection for a certain specific form of the written word (“literary fiction”, in this case) should be the benchmark for how intellectual we are as a people or society.

Comment #64: Tyro  on  11/17  at  01:10 PM

I don’t see how you can call something crap without implying that those who like it are not just different but inferior to your non-crap liking self.

Yep, which is why you ignored my question:

If I said that I thought that walnuts tasted like glued bitter sawdust, would you say that I have indicated that it’s ‘weird’ to eat walnuts, as Mother Avenger did?

I’ve had, over the years, many people express to me their opinion of various foods, and never have I had the impression that they looked down on those who enjoyed food that they found tasted crappy to themselves.

I don’t like liver and onions, I think it has a crappy smell and an unappealing texture, but I’ve never held the attitude you ascribe to Amanda.

Look, I know that Amanda-bashing is a sport for trolls and regulars alike, but if you want to think that Amanda called all the non-kid Americans who drink milk ‘weird’, I can only be as dust in the wind in comparison to your sacred and unassailable right to take offense at Amandas’ personal preferences as she expresses them on this blog.

Comment #65: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  01:19 PM

It’s just that fewer people care about it than ever before.

I really don’t know where you’re pulling that from.  If there’s more poetry being written and published now than ever before, wouldn’t that imply more people care enough to buy and/or read it?  Publishing houses aren’t boundless wells of generosity, you know.  Or do you just mean that fewer people who matter care?  Fewer “American intellectuals” like you?  The staggering hubris of declaring an art form as broad as literary fiction to be “played out” is so sickening I have to wonder if you’re deliberately putting me on.  If so, well played.

Comment #66: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  01:30 PM

I’m with Bruce on this one. A boyfriend of mine liked to use the fact that I’m tone deaf as a weapon. He was a big music snob, and my tone deafness means I like things that music snobs consider pablum. I enjoy a lot of mainstream pop. I’m the kind of person music snobs like to sneer at. But I’ve pretty much had my fill of being told I’m a failure by self-proclaimed Arbiters of Taste.

Also, fiction is alive and well. It may not be the fiction the snobs call literary, but there is plenty of awesome new sci-fi and fantasy out there.

Comment #67: Entomologista  on  11/17  at  01:37 PM

At least in the major cities, the hatred of hipsters has a lot to do with the fact that they comprise the first wave of gentrification in working-class neighborhoods whose existing residents are usually pushed out. Williamsburg’s Northside is an example of an area where this process is essentially complete. You can’t talk about anti-hipster sentiment without talking about gentrification.

Closely related to this is the fact that, for college-educated people working in white collar fields*, there is simply no risk at all in liking “edgy” art. In fact, it’s expected; it is one of the ways in which this class distinguishes itself from those below. Taste is an important instrument of enforcing social hierarchy, even if it’s largely unconscious: most people will end up with the tastes expected of their social class, for various reasons. The fact that the tastes of the upper-middle class are not only deemed the best tastes but are now actually claiming outsider status for themselves should make us suspicious. Le Tigre is not outsider art in 2011. Gucci Mane is.

Comment #68: Brendan  on  11/17  at  01:43 PM

*meant to add in above comment: white-collar encompasses things like media, publishing, non-profit, etc., where there is not a literal white collar dress code anymore.

Comment #69: Brendan  on  11/17  at  01:44 PM

I don’t see why you’re so offended at the very true statement that poetry as written verse doesn’t matter, anymore. Poetry is a vibrant form in the halls of writing departments and among poet-teachers in colleges. “Popular” poetry in enjoyed as musical lyrics, in the same way that fiction is popular as genre fiction and pop fiction rather than “literary” fiction. There’s not something wrong with our culture because we don’t have “adventurous” tastes in “literary” fiction.

Comment #70: Tyro  on  11/17  at  01:50 PM

And crime fiction, which David Simon called “the form of the 21st century.”
I hope Community prospers…it tickles me almost every time.
(I know my tastes are weird, but for a while it seemed that the world was catching on.)
As for music, it seems now that most pop is made for people much younger than I am, and I’m only a little older than Amanda.

Comment #71: chicating  on  11/17  at  01:53 PM

Le Tigre is not outsider art in 2011. Gucci Mane is.

lolz, mainstream hip-hop is outsider art in 2k11

That is itself an artifact of the quote unquote upper middle class tastes you are talking about

Tastes don’t map to social classes they way you’d like, anyway. You’re using “upper middle class” to mean “people who are talking about art loud enough for you to hear” or “tastemakers” and that’s a very tiny subset of people in that social class, if they are - you’re doing that dipshit op-ed thing where you conflate socioeconomic status with who was or was not cool in high school, and it’s bullshit.

Comment #72: brandon  on  11/17  at  02:19 PM

@54

If I said that I thought that walnuts tasted like glued bitter sawdust, would you say that I have indicated that it’s ‘weird’ to eat walnuts, as Mother Avenger did?

But that isn’t all she said. She said:

Do people just straight up drink milk?  That’s really weird.

So, when people say that she’s indicating it’s weird to drink milk, it’s because, y’know, she said it was “really weird” to “drink milk”.

Comment #73: Theaetetus  on  11/17  at  02:37 PM

I clearly suck at Expression Engine’s nigh-HTML.

Comment #74: Theaetetus  on  11/17  at  02:37 PM

That last bit caused a small butthurt reaction in me—-who are you calling “we”, dude?—-but I squelched because my life resolution is not to imitate the tedious culture of butthurtness of the internet that makes it hard to sift out legitimate criticism.

If only the ‘How dare you be a music snob!’ would sign on.

Comment #75: witless chum  on  11/17  at  02:49 PM

You… Broke it somehow weird, Theaetetus.

But yeah, Amanda, you totally called drinking milk, ‘weird’, despite that many Americans do drink milk - and if they don’t, they drink syrup soda.  Which I think is weird, but is apparently perfectly normal.

Comment #76: Crissa  on  11/17  at  02:51 PM

Tyro: actually, I do think there’s something wrong with our culture because of it. It means that we prefer the easy to the difficult. Which, you know, isn’t surprising or anything, but someone who throws down a copy of Ulysses (oh look, it’s the ultimate pretentious title drop!) because, man, all them words is so hard* is giving up on something crucial about reading, the engagement with the material on its own terms. It’s the kind of attitude that Jonathan Franzen defends, in a contrarian way, in Mr. Difficult, his essay about William Gaddis. I think it’s intellectually lazy, and a symptom of a broader intellectual laziness that renders people averse to anything that isn’t pre-digested mush.**

* Let me head off some objections right now: you don’t have to like Ulysses, you may think it’s a terrible book and hate everything about it; that’s a legitimate literary opinion. I pull it into this discussion because it’s the best parallel I can think of to the music side; namely, that when you say anything that indicates that you might have read or are reading or are even considering reading it, you risk getting branded as “that pretentious hipster asshole.” Feel free to substitute your own favorite difficult book into this example (Moby Dick! The Sound and the Fury!).

** And herein a personal admission that I find some predigested mush extremely entertaining. Doesn’t keep me from understanding that some things are better and more worthwhile than others.

Comment #77: Jerry Vinokurov  on  11/17  at  03:08 PM

@brandon

I probably should have chosen a better example than Gucci Mane, I just wanted someone who doesn’t quite have middlebrow respectability (like Kanye and Jay-Z do, for example). Lil Boosie?

I never said there was a perfect mapping of taste to wealth. There are strong correlations, however. It’s dumb to deny this or act like it isn’t important for understanding how taste can act as a means of social control. The crowd at any kind of self-consciously “risky” artistic happening is going to be richer, whiter and more educated than the crowd at, say, a Rihanna show.

Comment #78: Brendan  on  11/17  at  03:14 PM

despite that many Americans do drink

Why are you implying that Americans are alcoholics, crissa?

Let’s get the context again:

LI’m genuinely surprised at how much dairy we consume.  What’s that about?  Do people just straight up drink milk?  That’s really weird.

I take the last sentence to be a comment on the first sentence, but, please, don’t let facts stand in the way of a good Amanda-bashing.

 

Comment #79: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  03:17 PM

The last sentence is clearly a comment on the second to last sentence. I don’t know what kind of mental contortions you had to go through to think that it commented on the first sentence.

I think the fact that she hasn’t stuck around and commented at all just shows that she was just (successfully) trolling her own blog again. She does seem to like occasionally rolling a grenade into the room and walking away.

Comment #80: Bruce from Missouri  on  11/17  at  03:58 PM

Comment #80: Could that be it? I was wondering how my one-off comment turned into Amanda-bashing in the mind of Dark Avenger.

Comment #81: Livi  on  11/17  at  04:01 PM

I think drinking milk is pretty gross, if that’s what we’re talking about.

Comment #82: Jimmy  on  11/17  at  04:16 PM

The last sentence is clearly a comment on the second to last sentence.

And the sentence before that, and the first sentence.

It’s called context, folks.

Could that be it? I was wondering how my one-off comment turned into Amanda-bashing in the mind of Dark Avenger.

I’m remembering the “Do people actually drink milk?” or “Everybody has a smartphone now” threads.

Well, you’ve admitted error on your assertion about Amanda and smartphones, but I can’t see how thinking milk tastes like cold snot (which a cousin of mine once told me) is somehow a sign of Amanda’s snobbishness (rather than surprise) towards the non-kid Americans who do drink milk as a beverage.

I think the fact that she hasn’t stuck around and commented at all just shows that she was just (successfully) trolling her own blog again.

Or, perhaps she has a life which doesn’t include holding the hand of each and every commentator on this blog who has a disagreement with what she’s written here.

I know that almost every time I click through to a video that you post on Fridays from a band that no one has ever heard of, I usually last about 30 seconds before I want to drive a railroad spike through my ears.

But you weren’t rolling a grenade in the room and coming in afterwards saying “What’s up?”.

Thanks for clearing that up, BfM.

 

 

Comment #83: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  04:20 PM

Comment #82: LOL, it really isn’t. It was just my lousy example of how there are occasions when Amanda gives the appearance that what she thinks and/or observes in her surroundings can be extrapolated to society at large. Her taste in music I really have no comment on.

Comment #84: Livi  on  11/17  at  04:23 PM

Comment #83: Nope, never called her a snob either.

Comment #85: Livi  on  11/17  at  04:26 PM

I MYSELF WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT SERIES OF THREE SHORT SENTENCES FURTHER DECONSTRUCTED. IT HAS BEEN FASCINATING SO FAR AND I THINK WE CAN KEEP IT GOING.

Comment #86: norbizness  on  11/17  at  04:38 PM

The only reason milk showed up so large on that list was it was by weight, and they didn’t include other liquids in the accounting, since they weren’t ‘food’.

Comment #87: Crissa  on  11/17  at  04:39 PM

but I’ve seen you extrapolate you own tastes or habits to the general population on other things.

And, since she finds milk gross, that’s extrapolating her taste or habit to the general population, and you were just giving some needed feedback, you certainly weren’t accusing her of being a snob.

Okay.

Comment #88: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  04:47 PM

Comment #88: I’m really astonished at how you have latched on to one little comment out of the entire thread. It’s almost flattering.

Comment #89: Livi  on  11/17  at  04:58 PM

It is a little bizzare. He’s (she? I’m not sure) latched onto the most unassailable example of what we are talking about and seems determined to prove that up is down. It’s kinda like how when talking to a right-wing christian, the more you prove they are wrong, the more convinced they become that they are right.

    Well, you’ve admitted error on your assertion about Amanda and smartphones, but I can’t see how thinking milk tastes like cold snot (which a cousin of mine once told me) is somehow a sign of Amanda’s snobbishness (rather than surprise) towards the non-kid Americans who do drink milk as a beverage.

It’s because of the disingenuousness of her “surprise”...that was not the first time she trolled her blog by insulting milk drinkers, and probably not the second, either. She has known for a very long time that a lot of adults drink milk, unless she is not as smart as I think she is.


Dude, she clearly called milk drinkers weird. Quit trying to argue black is white and move on with your life.

Comment #90: Bruce from Missouri  on  11/17  at  05:44 PM

It’s because of the disingenuousness of her “surprise”...that was not the first time she trolled her blog by insulting milk drinkers, and probably not the second, either. She has known for a very long time that a lot of adults drink milk, unless she is not as smart as I think she is.

Thanks for standing up for the lactose-tolerant community, BfM.

I’m really astonished at how you have latched on to one little comment out of the entire thread.

I’m surprised you are astonished.

Comment #91: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  05:51 PM

Lesson of thread: everyone is an asshole in a very special-snowflake individual kind of way.

Comment #92: Well, what?  on  11/17  at  07:07 PM

Deliverance Georgia

Comment #93: Bean Slap  on  11/17  at  09:20 PM

Nice to see how considerate you are for folks from rural backgrounds, BS.

Comment #94: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/17  at  09:59 PM

Let me share my little anecdote involving milk and casual misogyny.  I was once at Sbarro and the man behind the counter asked if I wanted milk to drink, with a wink and a smile.  He was clearly flirting with me.  Because milk is a child’s drink and all women universally love to be told that they look young, amirite?  But to me it was condescending and slightly insulting.  I drink milk, and it’s not because I’m just some cute young thing.  It’s a way to get protein in the morning when I’m not hungry enough for solids, and it’s fantastic with cookies.  Some people don’t like it, so don’t drink it.

And offering milk has long been a passive-aggressive way to suggest that someone is too young for something.  My dad used to pretend to offer milk (or juice boxes) when someone was in a bad mood and he wanted to dismiss them as just being cranky babies.

If you don’t like milk, don’t drink it.  But next time you want to be snobby about it, think about the social connotations that you are reinforcing and how those can affect people in subtle ways.  You might think you’re just expressing opinion about milk, there is a lot of baggage along with it.  Intent isn’t magic, and if you basically call a large group of people a bunch of babies, you need to consider your phrasing better in the future.

Comment #95: bananacat  on  11/17  at  11:36 PM

All I wrote was deliverance georgia, I never said anything else.  Always jumping to conclusions eh avenger.

Comment #96: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  01:38 AM

I drink milk.


Yum.


Lets watch avenger cry over crap he/she/it/thing has read into that one.

Comment #97: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  01:40 AM

Has anyone tried reindeer, yak, sheep, human or water buffalo milk?

Comment #98: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  01:41 AM

Amanda’s amusingly judgmental about anything “genre”—if it’s sci-fi or geekery related (ren faires, computer gaming, cosplay), she’s pure Texan.

My theory is that she grew up in a small town in Texas and hasn’t had time to deconstruct all the crap that was crammed into her brain.  At this point, it’s more of a hilarious quirk than anything which interferes with her job, which is feminist analysis.  I mean, don’t ask Amanda to take on feminism and the changes in Gamer Culture (other than dismissive Nice Guy references).  But other than that, I approve of her priorities, even as she does a weird Southern class thing against my tribe.

Comment #99: Punditus Maximus  on  11/18  at  02:24 AM

Seriously?  This whole thread just got Britta’d.

Comment #100: pasteymachine  on  11/18  at  02:36 AM

But onto more important matters: has anyone tried reindeer, yak, human, water buffalo or sheep milk?

Comment #101: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  02:48 AM

Human - yes, my own.

Also goat’s milk, which is rare in the West, but is actually much more common in th rest of the world than cow’s milk.  Tastes slightly goaty to me, so doesn’t work in tea.

Sheep’s milk - only in cheese form.

Comment #102: Katherine  on  11/18  at  08:53 AM

Yes, you wrote it because of your deep love of rural areas and people, Bean Slap.

PM, I didn’t realize what a special snowflake you were until today.  Keep it up!

Comment #103: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/18  at  09:27 AM

I thought my own milk was shockingly sugarey. My husband liked it a lot but I just felt weird drinking it - like the guy eating his own hand to survive a hiking accident.

Sorry I’m so snobby that I can’t even drink my own breastmilk, guys.

Comment #104: Yawgmoth  on  11/18  at  10:46 AM

I’ve drunk goat milk, it’s what you feed Yorkie puppies because even with a small litter the mother usually can’t produce enough milk after the first two weeks unless she has the metabolism of a shrew.

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/18  at  11:00 AM

Water buffalo milk is the only milk I drink. You poor, infantile fools just don’t know what you’re missing. And even if you tried it, you couldn’t appreciate it the way I do.

Comment #106: junk science  on  11/18  at  11:08 AM

Actually, water buffalo mozzarella (Mozzarella di Bufala) IS the only way to go

Comment #107: John Joel Glanton  on  11/18  at  11:51 AM

Water buffalo milk is so over. It’s all about cat’s milk now.

Comment #108: junk science  on  11/18  at  11:55 AM

Tyro, literary fiction doomed itself to “played out” status when we started deliberately distinguishing between “literary” and “popular” fiction at the time a book is written and marketed, rather than the way literature has been determined for most of the history of writing, which is “wait a hundred years and see if it’s good enough for anyone to remember it.” At this point, “literary fiction” is the genre wherein the primary trope is that the main character is middle-aged and spends most of the book thinking deep thoughts about cheating on his wife; “genre fiction” is all stories with any other primary trope. The word has become awkwardly divorced from actual evaluation of literary merit.

Shakespeare was a middle-brow playwright who wrote prolifically because if he didn’t churn out new plays in a timely fashion he did not eat. Charles Dickens was a popular fiction author who got paid by the word and was published in cheap serials. Bram Stoker’s Dracula was just another trashy Gothic novel about the evils of, like, everything. Jane Austen wrote snarky fluff about how stupid people were and published it because she had nothing better to do. Spencer’s “Faerie Queene” is about fuckin’ fairies. They are all “literature” now because *other people* read their stuff and decided it was so awesome that they were going to keep reading it through the centuries.

The fact that anyone today can Decide to Write Literary Fiction Instead of Non-Literary Fiction, all on their onesies, is why “literary fiction” is dead and we are all reading YA fantasy instead.

Also, Moby-Dick is legit a terrible book. Every chapter it changes genres, including going back and forth between “fiction” and “textbook”.

Comment #109: thecynicalromantic  on  11/18  at  06:42 PM

At this point, “literary fiction” is the genre wherein the primary trope is that the main character is middle-aged and spends most of the book thinking deep thoughts about cheating on his wife; “genre fiction” is all stories with any other primary trope.

Good lord, thank you. When did Americans forget that pretentious bullshit is to be mocked, not revered?

Comment #110: junk science  on  11/18  at  10:49 PM

I thought my own milk was shockingly sugarey.

Incredibly yes.  Very high in sugar.  No good for tea, according to my mother (from her own experiments in the 70’s).  Personally, I never could pump enough to make it worth experimenting beyond a quick taste.

And y’know, I’ve had buffalo mozzarella without even thinking about drinking/using the milk.  Mostly because it’s not available in the supermarket, whereas goat’s milk is nearly everywhere nowadays.

Comment #111: Katherine  on  11/20  at  01:05 PM

I recall her attempting to convince me to stop listening to metal bands in high school by stating matter-of-factly that her music (Lawrence Welk and gospel, basically) were obviously superior.

Comment #112: bESt buY  on  11/20  at  01:39 PM

We are all beautiful little snowflakes, just like everyone else.

Comment #113: Punditus Maximus  on  11/20  at  08:28 PM
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