Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Glenn Beck finds a BFF in tin foil hat preacher who says health care reform = ‘black genocide’ Previous entry: KS: Rep. Lynn Jenkins laughs at uninsured mom and child at forum

Confusion is not the word you’re looking for

FeminismSex

For those who haven’t seen it, it’s well worth it to read this response by Will Wilkinson to Kay Hymowitz’s suggestion that women’s human rights should be repealed so men don’t have to ask if they’re going dutch on dates.  It’s interesting and compassionate towards male complaints without giving one iota on the idea that men should suck it up and, gasp!, start treating women like people. In fact, Wilkinson really fleshes out the “treat women like people” idea, which is often a response to men who trot out the Nice Guy® complaint about how they don’t have the secret code to push to get women—-a single, undifferentiated group—-to give them sex and affection.  I’m forced to quote at length.

When women are free to be individuals, free to want different things than other women, men can’t be sure what any particular women might want from him. To open the door for her or not!? To pick up the check or not!? To be a nice guy like she says she wants or a bad boy like she really wants?! These unresolved and unresolvable questions have led inevitably to the contemporary condition in which men are either unlovable whining sad sacks or misogynist assholes who cite a cartoon version of Darwinism to justify treating a woman as little more than an upgrade from Jergens and a sock…...

Look, the phenomenon Hymowitz describes is real enough. Rapid social change inevitably makes it harder to coordinate expectations. If it is a change worth having, then the pains of adjustment are worth it. Period. That doesn’t mean those pains are unimportant. Guys do suffer uncertainty about whether or not to open doors or pick up checks. It really can be frustrating for the sensitive guy to find out he’d be more generally attractive if he learned to be a bit more of a dick.

At this point, the feminist blogging community usually says, “Assume women are human beings.”  But of course, Will is actually doing this, by defining one of the major goals of women’s liberation as allowing women the space to be different from each other, to want different things, to have different personality traits, to not be a series of buttons you push to get a predictable response.  To be, in other words, human beings.  And men who object to women’s diversity are prioritizing their comfort over women’s right to be human beings.  They are also not taking into consideration the fact that women don’t have the luxury of expecting all men to be the same.  Oh sure, there’s jokes about how all men want is sex and food, but the reality is that women largely expect to assume men are individuals with tastes and opinions to respect (and sadly, in the past, we were expected to mold ourselves to them).  Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t think, for instance, of a universal gift that’s supposed to woo all men into submission.  But women are expected to respond in an automated fashion to roses and diamonds.  This is expensive, but it’s also comforting, as Will notes, because it’s just easier to push buttons and get responses than to do the hard work of getting to know someone as an equal.  But getting to know someone also has more dividends.

All this vexation is a very, very small price to pay for equality. For men, it is a very, very small price to pay for the opportunity to share a life with a peer, a full partner, rather than with a woman limited by convention and straitened opportunity to a more circumscribed and subordinate role in life. Sexual equality has created the possibility of greater exactness and complementarity in matching women to men. That is, in my book, a huge gain to men. But equality does raise expectations for love and marriage. The prospect of finding a true partner, rather than someone to satisfactorily perform the generic role of husband or wife, leaves many of us single and searching for a good long time. But this isn’t about delaying adulthood, it’s about meeting higher standards for what marriage and family should be.

Or, I would even argue, going the next step and redefining what you even want from life and romance altogether.  Not that Will would disagree, I’m sure—-he suggests that he’s learned a lot from gay men about how to have a broader definition of masculinity.  (I’m sure that won’t do a thing to convince Kay Hymowitz of his point of view, of course.  Suggesting that straight men look to gay men as friends instead of objects to fear?  That’s heresy to conservatives.) 


But what really won me over to this post was that Will doesn’t play soft, or try to paint the male temper tantrum that Hymowitz applauds as anything but what it is—-ugly and sexist.  He argues that far from being merely angry over the “confusion” over stupid shit like who pays the tab at dinner, men who are lashing out at the broadening gender roles are angry that they’ve lost patriarchal power over women.  Will doesn’t spell out what it is that the angry men think they deserve, but I will: servitude, mainly.  They imagine that it’s about having someone who must support you and never disagree, who subsumes her will to yours.  Someone who does the housework and has sex on your schedule according to your desires. Someone who sees pregnancy as having your baby, and does all the boring day to day work while deferring to your authority on the big stuff.  Someone who will manage the family finances without demanding authority over what is done with the money.  On paper, it sounds great having such a servant.  In reality, the amount of resentment and coldness that can build up in those relationships doesn’t sound so great, but hey, they just ignore the inconvenient facts that clash with their ego trips.

And it must be all these things, and not cutesy shit like who pays for dinner.  What always bugs me about arguments like Hymowitz’s—-besides the fact that she thinks a couple of minor social niceties that don’t even come up that much in the grand scheme of things are more important than the basic rights of half the human race—-is how they’re absolute bullshit on their surface. Everything in her article that is “confusing” is actually easy to clear up if you understand a very simple principle: women can speak, often in a language that is shared by men.  For instance, my primary language is English.  Actually, being American, it’s my only language.  This has been true of every man I’ve ever dated, though to be fair, some have spoken Spanish as well.  Nonetheless, we communicated in English.  Men will open their mouths (or tap their keyboards) and speak, and I will listen and then do the same and they will listen.  We have all these devices, too!  Phones, email, chat—-I have used all these things to speak with men that I was dating in any capacity.  Hell, even notes passed in class!  Language, and the various forms it takes, can clear up so much of the confusion that Hymowitz worries about.  For instance, who pays for dinner?  So confusing if you are forbidden to speak!  But if you do speak, odds are you were doing so for at least an hour before the check even came, establishing a repertoire that allows you to talk about it and come to a decision.  Many scientists in fact think this need for consensus in decision-making is why language evolved, because we are social creatures. 

Language is even useful when it comes to the more complicated stuff Hymowitz details:

But then, when an SYM walks into a bar and sees an attractive woman, it turns out to be nothing like that. The woman may be hoping for a hookup, but she may also be looking for a husband, a co-parent, a sperm donor, a relationship, a threesome, or a temporary place to live. She may want one thing in November and another by Christmas. “I’ve gone through phases in my life where I bounce between serial monogamy, Very Serious Relationships and extremely casual sex,” writes Megan Carpentier on Jezebel, a popular website for young women. “I’ve slept next to guys on the first date, had sex on the first date, allowed no more than a cheek kiss, dispensed with the date-concept altogether after kissing the guy on the way to his car, fucked a couple of close friends and, more rarely, slept with a guy I didn’t care if I ever saw again.” Okay, wonders the ordinary guy with only middling psychic powers, which is it tonight?

If a man cannot read a woman’s mind, how can he know what she’s thinking?  If only women came equipped with language!  Oh wait, they fucking do. 

Of course, when these men cite “confusion”, you know exactly what’s going on.  They don’t want to ask.  They don’t want to listen.  They want to press buttons and have the fembots perform the assigned tasks.  For those of us who find talking with people we’re attracted to exciting and even intoxicating, the things that supposedly “confuse” don’t.  We might find we might different things.  We might find conflict.  It might, as Will notes, take a long time to find someone on the same page.  But it’s rarely confusing.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:10 PM • (69) Comments

It’s actually true for me that understanding gay men’s society has really helped me get a handle on my own sexuality—especially its capriciousness.

Comment #1: Punditus Maximus  on  09/01  at  08:04 PM

But women are expected to respond in an automated fashion to roses and diamonds.

My father had a huge problem with relationships when he couldn’t buy his wife off.  My mother’s and his relationship was rocky primarily for that reason, even if there was real love there.  His fifth marriage was very easy in comparison.  His wife was mostly interested in what material comforts he could provide for her.  I think he preferred it that way.

not cutesy shit like who pays for dinner

I’ll be damned if that shit is cutesy.  The most dominant and pushy men I’ve ever dated were also the ones with the biggest problems with splitting the check.  One guy even tried to cheat me out of a chance at paying by asking for the check while I was in the bathroom.  I don’t even think it was about trying to get me into bed either.  They seemed to be vying to make me “indebted” to them in other ways, like having to put up with being drunk dialed at 1 a.m. on a weeknight.  I guess that’s why I’m much more adamant about paying my share when I have no intention of ever seeing the guy again.

Comment #2: keshmeshi  on  09/01  at  08:11 PM

I have recently come to understand that a great deal of contemporary sexism has to do with the very mediocre level of male self knowledge and psychological development that is considered to be normal.  It is this lack of self development that leads to the need to have women in a role that is other than completely human and equal.  Also, the ideology of gender plays into this, so that when males have not developed an understanding of their intrinsic dual nature (irrational and “emotional”, as well as rational and capable of functioning in an orderly way)  they need to have women around to take the burden from them of their “confusing” emotions and failed thinking processes (women are blamed for not communicating, when the male hasn’t even asked his question, or they are blamed for being misleading, when the male has merely jumped to a wrong conclusion).  Here is Teresa Brennan’s stuff on the matter.

Comment #3: scratchy888  on  09/01  at  08:14 PM

Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t think, for instance, of a universal gift that’s supposed to woo all men into submission.

Well, there’s the old “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach” (i.e. cook well for him and he’s bound to propose) but I get what you’re saying; for every adage about men’s buttons to push, there are a hundred such reductive expressions for how to “tame” a woman—any and all of ‘em!

Comment #4: Ranylt  on  09/01  at  08:27 PM

<i>Many men aren’t angry and confused because they don’t know what women want. They’re angry because they want what their fathers or grandfathers had, and they can’t get it.</i.>

I think this is the outstanding line of the piece, and it just can’t be repeated too often.

Comment #5: sophonisba  on  09/01  at  08:31 PM

the reality is that women largely expect to assume men are individuals with tastes and opinions to respect

Huh? Have you been to the romance/dating section of a bookstore lately, with its collection of books telling you how to land the Man Of Your Dreams? “The Rules”, anyone?

Comment #6: ballast  on  09/01  at  08:50 PM

The Rules is about how to conform YOUR behavior to what men expect, not what to expect from men.

Comment #7: Gavel Down  on  09/01  at  08:55 PM

Ranylt, if the way into a man’s heart is to make him dinner, I think the way into a woman’s heart is to clean her kitchen. Unless you live together, in which case the kitchen.

Comment #8: purpleshoes  on  09/01  at  09:00 PM

The Rules is about how to conform YOUR behavior to what men expect, not what to expect from men.

A questionable distinction. Because much of the (often terrible) advice given to men on dating/relationships is based on an ill-conceived notion of what women are supposed to inherently find attractive.

Comment #9: ballast  on  09/01  at  09:01 PM

@ballast

Agreed.  It also presumes that all men want/respond to the same thing.  Tits and ass, I guess?  (I’m not really familiar with The Rules.)

Comment #10: keshmeshi  on  09/01  at  09:10 PM

Eh, maybe you’re right.  I can’t claim a familiarity with The Rules either (thank god.)

Comment #11: Gavel Down  on  09/01  at  09:12 PM

I think I’m gonna hurl - when women are free to be individuals???????

Whether we’re free or not, WE ARE INDIVIDUALS. wtf is wrong with these people

LIVE IN REALITY, ALREADY!!

ok, will finish reading now

Comment #12: liviaclaudia  on  09/01  at  09:14 PM

I am a little concerned (but only a little) that the focus on the discussion is on how it’s better for everyone if women are equal.  I really literally wouldn’t care if it gave men boils on their asses for a year if women were treated equally.  Women have a right to equality.

I mean, yes, I think the results for both sexes will be better.  But arguing that it will make it better for the mens avoids the moral point.

Comment #13: oldfeminist  on  09/01  at  09:18 PM

Okay, wonders the ordinary guy with only middling psychic powers, which is it tonight?

This comment had me wondering how this woman behaves in such a situation and how she manages to broadcast it to others.  Does she wear a shirt that says “buy me a drink and I’ll give you a blow job”? Furthermore, how does she manage perfectly consistent behavior in every situation?

Comment #14: Ursula  on  09/01  at  09:25 PM

Ranylt, if the way into a man’s heart is to make him dinner, I think the way into a woman’s heart is to clean her kitchen. Unless you live together, in which case the kitchen.

So that’s what I’ve been doing right all these years—the dishes. And the laundry too—I fold clothes much better than Amy does. We’ve been together nearly nine years now, so something is working.

Comment #15: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/01  at  09:38 PM

Ugh, I hate hate hate it when women argue that we should give up equal rights so men will treat us nicer on dates.  If anything, feminism has improved male dating behavior by weeding the absolute assholes—the ones who refuse to even pretend to like women—out of the dating pool.  These guys aren’t getting laid, and they’re pissed about it.

Look at the mail Hymowitz quotes from these poor, deprived SYMs, if you can stomach it.  It’s a fat bunch of sour grapes: those hot women would probably be too busy working out to be devoted girlfriends!  Those rich, successful women must be obsessed with money!  Those women at the bar who go home with men other than me?  WHORES.  They didn’t reject me!  I didn’t want to touch icky girls in the first place!

It’s hilarious that someone would try to glean useful insights into modern relationships from a guy who claims he doesn’t date because all women are “diseased bar tramps.”  It’s even more hilarious to imagine that in the 1950s this same guy would’ve been at your door in a tux with a dozen roses.

Comment #16: Shaenon  on  09/01  at  09:38 PM

Okay, so I succumbed to curiosity and read Hymowitz’s article.  No she did NOT quote the craigslist rant from the Nice Guy(TM) douche as though it were a legitimate.  And it gets worse from there, with the evo psych bullshit and the male entitlement coddling.  Clearly she’s trying to placate the MRAs she offended in her previous article about “child-men” but why?

Comment #17: DonnaDiva  on  09/01  at  09:45 PM

Whereas the guy walking into a bar is only ever looking for a sportf*ck. Never conversation, never meeting some friends, listening to the music or grousing at the bartender about his day at work.

But I think Wilkinson is wrong: most guys who are pissed about the way things are today don’t want what their fathers or grandfathers had, they want what they vaguely want to imagine their male ancestors had, editing out all the inconvenient bits of daily living.

(Let me see: 35 years of 12-hour days six days a week seeing my ostensibly adoring and subservient spouse only on weekends, followed by debilitating illness and death the same year as planned retirement? Do not want. 25 years of marriage to someone picked for being blonde and no intersection of interests whatsoever, ended by conversation in which spouse opts for widowhood over poverty? Even more do not want.)

Comment #18: paul  on  09/01  at  09:50 PM

Look at the mail Hymowitz quotes from these poor, deprived SYMs, if you can stomach it.  It’s a fat bunch of sour grapes: those hot women would probably be too busy working out to be devoted girlfriends!  Those rich, successful women must be obsessed with money!

Ha! It isn’t only rich successful women who are obsessed with money IME….but an awful lot of people, especially many in corporate America or in more mainstream US colleges/universities. 

Heck, in visiting one friend’s Boston area campus during an undergrad break, overheard a bunch of frat-boys devising various ways to date and marry female BU students because that way they’ll be set for life financially because they all come from “filthy rich families”.*  rolleyes

Comment #19: exholt  on  09/01  at  09:50 PM

What Gavel said at #7, though yes, I will say “The Rules” assumes that all men can be got by being very submissive and playing games.  The Rules might be effective at catching men who love that.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/01  at  10:00 PM

Meanwhile, if I remember anything from my girlfriends at BU, the women are all trying to date and marry MIT guys on the assumption that they’ll make a bundle.

Comment #21: Gavel Down  on  09/01  at  10:01 PM

But I think Wilkinson is wrong: most guys who are pissed about the way things are today don’t want what their fathers or grandfathers had, they want what they vaguely want to imagine their male ancestors had, editing out all the inconvenient bits of daily living.

(Let me see: 35 years of 12-hour days six days a week seeing my ostensibly adoring and subservient spouse only on weekends, followed by debilitating illness and death the same year as planned retirement? Do not want.

Well, sure. You’re not one of those angry guys, so you don’t want what they want, that’s pretty tautological.

It’s not only that those angry men don’t see the hidden or not-so-hidden costs of patriarchy. For a guy who misses the old rules he never got a chance to play by, seeing your wife only at night (to fuck) and on weekends (to ignore) is a really good deal. “Oh, but you don’t get to spend time with your beloved companion” isn’t a downside if that’s not what a wife would ever be to them in the first place.  And you had to work 12-hour days if you were poor enough or if you’re ambitious enough in a profession where it’s the only way to get ahead—you still do—but was by no means a requirement that you kill yourself with overwork and stress to be the tinpot dictator in your own household. In the social framework they’re sorry for missing, you don’t relinquish the privileges of patriarchy just because you’re too lazy to shoulder the supposedly-reciprocal <strike>white</strike> man’s burden. Whether you kill yourself at the office or not, you’re still the man, that’s the beauty of it. Hell, in the old system, if you failed at providing and your wife had to go out and bring in an income, you got to live off her and resent her for emasculating you. Win/win!

It may be hard for modern men to believe that being classed in the superior half of humanity was really worth all the fear, loneliness and ulcers of the fifties, and I am glad that so many men find it unthinkable to go back, but it really was worth it to a lot of men. Dominance is a powerful prize.

Comment #22: sophonisba  on  09/01  at  10:18 PM

sophonisba, the 12 hour day thing could also be an excuse to take long lunches and find some time for golf with the buddies.  They are worshiping a patriarchal fantasy, where they see their wives to fuck and as rarely as possible so that she will just be glad to see you.  That fantasy rarely works.

Comment #23: Ursula  on  09/01  at  10:25 PM

Meanwhile, if I remember anything from my girlfriends at BU, the women are all trying to date and marry MIT guys on the assumption that they’ll make a bundle.

Funny considering what I’ve heard from MIT undergrads and seen firsthand when I visited the campus. Many MIT dudes were looking to date and marry Wellesley students to also be set for life financially.  For some, there was also the supposed bonus of being paired with a supposedly wealthy woman whose perceived intelligence won’t overshadow theirs unlike their Harvard/MIT counterparts.  rolleyes

Comment #24: exholt  on  09/01  at  10:47 PM

Looking at the lives of my parents and grandparents as well as those younger than me but a bit older than my children, I see a dating world that used to have set rules that were broken but now has broken rules that aren’t set.  People still meet and fall in love and live happily ever after at about the same rate as before, but our increasing number of options has a lot of life’s less fortunate people seeking and finding more and more explanations for their condition.  Feminism can be blamed, as can the decline in the number of bowling alleys, but women are more desirable than bowling so more will hook on to the idea that the women are to blame.

The social conditions that set up the rules have largely broken down.  Many societal institutions are very different from fifty years ago, and more still are different from a hundred years ago.  But men are still men, women are still women, attractive people (using whatever criteria) pick and get picked first, and less attractive people become embittered just as they have for centuries.  Men complain about women, women complain about men, and the people who don’t get it continue in their not getting of it.

There’s really nothing different except the excuses people give for their unhappiness.  And even those are recycled.

Comment #25: 3letterjon  on  09/02  at  09:20 AM

exholt - Ha!  We’re all such assholes, aren’t we?

Comment #26: Gavel Down  on  09/02  at  09:58 AM

I guess I’m not man enough to get it.  I never ran into these uncertainty problems.  I always open the door for men or women if I am the first to get to it.  So what?  I offer my seat to elderly or pregnant women on buses and if there is an elderly man on the bus and he looks like he could use a seat, I offer it to him too, but not automatically.  When I was single, I picked up the check on dates and if my date didn’t want me to, she would say so and that was fine.  I recall being rebuffed in an upset fashion on a bus seat offer maybe one time by an older woman who clearly didn’t want to be treated like she was infirm.  I accepted that with a shrug of the shoulders and a quick, “Sorry”.  That was it.  It was in no way an ego-shattering experience.  Frankly, the people writing about this are wasting ink on the experiences of the massively insecure.  Your ego is shattered by this uncertainty?  It leaves you emotionally distraught? Do the words “So what?” ring a bell?

I was raised to open doors and pick up the tab and so on.  I do those things automatically and don’t think twice about them.  I’m married now, so the dating thing is no longer relevant, but it was never a problem for me twenty years ago when I was still single and none of the other social gestures in which I indulge seem to be a problem for anyone, male or female.

In the end, I am forced to conclude that the authors are MAKING THE WHOLE CONTROVERSY UP.  I have yet to run into a woman who gave me any crap about opening a door for her or who made a fuss about me picking up the tab.  It was always a simple matter and without any rancor on any side.  The way the people who are complaining about “uncertainty” (what the hell is that anyway?) are writing, you’d think this was an everyday event in their lives, that someone was screaming at them for holding open a door.  It all sounds like a crock to me.

Comment #27: DBK  on  09/02  at  10:43 AM

Male anger = sexism

Wrong again. Male anger != sexism, and no one here said it did. Male anger at not being guaranteed a subservient fembot and having to navigate the unfairly complex world of human women does indeed equal sexism. If women wanted to take away men’s human right to be individuals so getting laid would be easier for them, that would be sexist as well. Unfortunately for those who want to deny that sexism against women exists, that’s not the way the inequality works in the real world.

Wow, there’s just so much wrong around here all of a sudden.

Comment #28: junk science  on  09/02  at  10:45 AM

“In the end, I am forced to conclude that the authors are MAKING THE WHOLE CONTROVERSY UP.”

Clearly, your data set of one is the ultimate standard against which all things must be measured.

Comment #29: preying mantis  on  09/02  at  11:04 AM

Anyone who believes there was never any confusion or mixed signals in the old days ought to read “Pride & Prejudice.”

I will say that I experience confusion sometimes as to whether to offer my seat on the subway to an older woman or man.  This is due to our culture’s adulation of youth, and people’s reluctance to be categorized as “old.”  I worry that the older person will be offended if I don’t give up my seat, but also that he or she will be offended if I do give up my seat.  (This is especially true when the older person is like my mother—not frail at all but still three decades older than I am—in which case the purpose of giving up my seat is only a sign of respect and deference for age, rather than because the person is having any difficulty standing.)  My solution is usually to simply stand up and move somewhere else without affirmatively offering the seat.  This can backfire when a younger person slides into the seat instead of the person I intended the seat for. 

Once a young man on a London tube got very angry with me when I declined a seat that he offered.  I smiled and said, “No, thank you, but I really appreciate it.” I wanted to remain standing by the door so I could hop out of the tube easily at my stop rather than having to fight the crowd.  The guy still took my refusal as an act of hostility towards him, and got very angry.  I am guessing this guy still complains about the time a mean American feminist was nasty to him for trying to be chivalrous.

Comment #30: Laurie  on  09/02  at  11:05 AM

Re The Rules, I think it’s safe to say that that book and its ilk essentialize the hell out of both sexes.

Comment #31: Ranylt  on  09/02  at  11:09 AM

Mr. Orange thankfully sidestepped the “who gets the check” thing. He just cooked for me. I’d sit in the kitchen with him, talking, while he chopped vegetables and boiled pasta. How did he know that I was a mediocre cook but loved Italian food and would appreciate someone making it for me ? Wonder of wonders, it came up in conversation. He bothered to ask. It boggles the mind that this is a difficult thing, talking to the person you’re supposedly interested in, though I suppose that assumes you think women are people.

I don’t understand where that comes from, the mass-marketed idea that women are one-size-fits-all fembots. Don’t these people have mothers ? Sisters ? Cousins and aunts ? How can you live amongst women and not see that they are individuals ? They don’t like the same flavor of cookies, they don’t have the same favorite movie, they didn’t pick the same major in college or practice the same hobby and they all dress different. How do you not pick it up, even at that most basic level ? Willful ignorance must be the answer, combined with enormous entitlement.

And DBK, I suspect you’re right. I have literally never heard a male relative or guy friend (and I’ve got plenty) complain about the opening doors/picking up the check thing. Most of the people I’ve ever talked about this with, in fact, have agreed that someone being obsessed by that petty dominance (so-called chivalry) stuff is a “warning sign” for other bad behaviors in relationships.

Comment #32: other_orange  on  09/02  at  11:22 AM

When I agree with DBK, that’s not to say, of course, that people aren’t having experiences like Laurie’s (what a craphead, to act like you owed him something.) But I do think there’s an inflation of this behavior from the man’s perspective going on in the article: like, the author is treating the hurt feelings of a select group of overly anxious men as a kind of massive phenomenon that requires an overhaul of our culture. Truly, what needs overhauling is their antiquated attitude.

Comment #33: other_orange  on  09/02  at  11:26 AM

ballast (6):

Huh? Have you been to the romance/dating section of a bookstore lately, with its collection of books telling you how to land the Man Of Your Dreams? “The Rules”, anyone?

A lot of those seem to be about overcoming this individuality, but never denies that it’s there. The Rules is all about giving the appearance of respecting his opinions; mysogynist/Nice Guy™ dating advice suggests women don’t have any that matter.

oldfeminist (13):

I am a little concerned (but only a little) that the focus on the discussion is on how it’s better for everyone if women are equal.  I really literally wouldn’t care if it gave men boils on their asses for a year if women were treated equally.  Women have a right to equality.

But PHMT. Though I do agree with your concern.

paul (18):

25 years of marriage to someone picked for being blonde and no intersection of interests whatsoever, ended by conversation in which spouse opts for widowhood over poverty? Even more do not want

I kinda like the idea of a partner who’s with me because she thinks the alternative is the ignominy of spinsterhood. Particularly if she doesn’t care for me especially but does feel beholden to me. Because those relationships never end badly.

gavel (21):

Meanwhile, if I remember anything from my girlfriends at BU, the women are all trying to date and marry MIT guys on the assumption that they’ll make a bundle.

Heh. I was in my Nice Guy™-lite phase at BU, so I don’t think I even noticed.

Comment #34: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/02  at  12:18 PM

Many men aren’t angry and confused because they don’t know what women want. They’re angry because they want what their fathers or grandfathers had, and they can’t get it.

The problem is, their fathers and grandfathers really didn’t have all that.  They want what they think men used to have, but they really didn’t.  Even when women’s priority was supposed to be raising children, very few wives were completely submissive and very few husbands actually wanted it that way.  Both of my grandmothers had jobs (not careers) because they needed the money.  Both of my grandmothers had some authority within their marriages, including deciding how many children to have.  These current angry men want something that completely fictional.  They don’t realize that Leave it to Beaver was a made-up show.

Ranylt, if the way into a man’s heart is to make him dinner, I think the way into a woman’s heart is to clean her kitchen. Unless you live together, in which case the kitchen.

This is true for some women, including me.  In college, a friend-with-benefits ended up cleaning my shower and toilet (mainly because it was too dirty for him to use).  A second time, he cleaned my kitchen.  I’ve considered starting a more serious relationship with him, partly because of that.

Meanwhile, if I remember anything from my girlfriends at BU, the women are all trying to date and marry MIT guys on the assumption that they’ll make a bundle.

In high school, occasionally an older lady would suggest that I marry a doctor/lawyer/whatever so I could be rich.  I just told them that it’s easier for me to just be a doctor/lawyer/whatever and make the money myself so that my wealth won’t be dependent on whether or not my marriage lasts (or if I even get married).

Comment #35: bananacat  on  09/02  at  12:34 PM

To open the door for her or not!? To pick up the check or not!? To be a nice guy like she says she wants or a bad boy like she really wants?! These unresolved and unresolvable questions

Heh, that’s like me going into a store to look for something, and a store employee is standing right next to me, and I just stand there like a doofus wondering how I could possibly find that item I want.  Why are these men so afraid of asking a simple question?

Comment #36: bananacat  on  09/02  at  12:37 PM

In high school, occasionally an older lady would suggest that I marry a doctor/lawyer/whatever so I could be rich.  I just told them that it’s easier for me to just be a doctor/lawyer/whatever and make the money myself so that my wealth won’t be dependent on whether or not my marriage lasts (or if I even get married).

My grandmother used to say “It’s as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man.”

I wish I had had the understanding I do now to be able to articulate what I knew at the time was the problem with that but didn’t understand what I knew well enough to say it—which was “No, because a rich man is much much more likely to behave like an entitled asshole who thinks he’s bought you. Marry a man who’s poor now but intelligent, educated or getting an education, and has future prospects, and you’re getting an *equal*, who understands himself to be your equal, not your superior, not your lord and master.”

Also, there are actually more poor men in the world than rich men, so even statistically, no it’s not as easy. The selection of poor men is wider.

Comment #37: Alara J Rogers  on  09/02  at  12:59 PM

<u>sophonisba @22</u>: well said. The main reason I hate this appeasement stance of “patriarchy hurts men too!” is because by and large, it doesn’t.

You can’t hurt somebody by taking away something that they don’t care about; the opportunities for growth, intimacy, partnership, emotional freedom etc. are only missed opportunities for guys who can appreciate the value of those things. For a huge - and I am unapologetic about this, Pandagon is not the real world, and I do mean a HUGE - proportion of men, all these supposed “benefits” of female emancipation are at best burdensome and confusing, at worst maddening to the point of violence.

Which goes back to what <u>oldfeminist</u> said up-thread. It’s not about making feminism worth men’s while, because it’s not about men. Which is still such a radical, counter-intuitive notion, even today, that we have to shake ourselves every so often and repeat it out loud.

Comment #38: MarinaS  on  09/02  at  01:01 PM

Which goes back to what oldfeminist said up-thread. It’s not about making feminism worth men’s while, because it’s not about men.

Really? Phew! Guess I can stop worrying about any of that nonsense now. Thanks.

Comment #39: ballast  on  09/02  at  01:33 PM

In high school, occasionally an older lady would suggest that I marry a doctor/lawyer/whatever so I could be rich.  I just told them that it’s easier for me to just be a doctor/lawyer/whatever and make the money myself so that my wealth won’t be dependent on whether or not my marriage lasts (or if I even get married).

I might get flamed for this: how can any woman then be a stay at home mom, with no independant income, and consider herself a feminist? To me, if you’re dependant on a man for food, shelter, etc, you aren’t really his equal because you’re so vunerable.. Thoughts?

Comment #40: pitbullgirl65  on  09/02  at  01:46 PM

“No, because a rich man is much much more likely to behave like an entitled asshole who thinks he’s bought you.

If said wealth is inherited, the wealthy person, whether male/female, tends IME to also have a harder time learning to budget effectively, especially during lean times because they took their wealth for granted and never had to do so when they were growing up. 

Was quite a shocking experience to see so many trust-fund undergrads and co-workers* dig themselves deep financial holes to the tune of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars despite their massive trust-funds and six/seven digit incomes because they were spending money as if it was going out of style. 

IMO…better to find someone who knows how to put whether financial resources they have to the most efficient/effective use along with being “intelligent, educated or getting an education, and has future prospects” than to find someone solely because they happen to be rich. 

* Many of those co-workers considered me “cheap” for not conforming to their lavish wasteful spending habits.  Personally, I’d prefer to get optimal usage of several years minimum out of my computers, electronics, and furniture before replacement….not do so every 3-6 months for kicks/keeping up with the joneses.

Comment #41: exholt  on  09/02  at  01:59 PM

Pitbullgirl65, 
That would depend on whether they were in a partnership marriage or not and whether they had skills, etc that they could use should the marriage end, in whatever manner.  Typically, it is very difficult to be a SaHM and a feminist.  Not impossible, just difficult.

That said, I think it very foolish for anyone to spend years at home without some sort of skill building or money earning endevor; if only because shit happens.  People divorce.  People get laid off.  People are hit by a bus crossing the street.  A household being dependent on one income for multiple people is just too insecure (IMO) for most people in our society; that is, any who don’t want to risk abject poverty for their entire household.

But then, my spouse was a SaHD back in the 80s for almost 2 years.  I had a job and he didn’t and we had a newborn and a toddler.  Later, I was home with the kids most of one year because he had a job and I didn’t, and I was back in school but still the primary caregiver for a few years after that getting a 2nd degree.  Am I a feminist?  I consider myself so.

Comment #42: helen w. h.  on  09/02  at  02:23 PM

“My grandmother used to say “It’s as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man.” “

I imagine it made more sense back when women’s choices were far, far more constrained.  If your opportunities for a decent life outside of marriage are poor, and your opportunities for serious courtship and marriage are limited by the social dictate to play an entirely passive role in the proceedings, and your opportunities for really getting to know a prospective mate thoroughly before marriage aren’t good, and divorce is socially unacceptable…well, there’s a very good chance you’re going to have a lot of “falling in love” to finish after the marriage.  And if your thorough second-class-citizen status means that both men are going to be lording it over you in ways big and small, there’s less to lose by choosing the rich man.

These days, it’s more or less just a weird tautology.

Comment #43: preying mantis  on  09/02  at  02:54 PM

<iBut then, my spouse was a SaHD back in the 80s for almost 2 years.  I had a job and he didn’t and we had a newborn and a toddler.  Later, I was home with the kids most of one year because he had a job and I didn’t, and I was back in school but still the primary caregiver for a few years after that getting a 2nd degree.  Am I a feminist?  I consider myself so. </i>

Yes, it’s a tough call isn’t it?  And then throw in the fact that housework/childcare is unpaid labour on which our Western world depends on, it gets complex. Of course way back when, everyone stayed home and worked, e.g. farmers for one.

Comment #44: pitbullgirl65  on  09/02  at  03:19 PM

stay-at-home mom who considers herself a feminist here. (with my pet unicorn apparently). i can’t work outside the home—i have severe fibromyalgia. at home, i can pace myself in terms of the work i do, and take a week off if i have a flare-up and need to stay in bed. not so many jobs have that kind of flexibility. i would love to generate income, but i can’t. i don’t think that means that i don’t have feminist principles.

i believe women are human beings. i believe in reproductive and social justice. i believe in equality. i model intellectual and emotional independence for my daughters, and talk to them about financial independence. but my body won’t let me achieve that one part of “adult womanhood”, so i guess my beliefs don’t matter. thanks.

Comment #45: sophiefair  on  09/02  at  03:46 PM

The assumption of non-disability may be unfair, sophie, but it’s not what you’re making it out to be.

Comment #46: Auguste  on  09/02  at  03:57 PM

Sorry, let me clarify:

Arguments which take place from an implicit assumption of non-disability may be unfair…etc.

No one’s attacking your feminism because you have an illness.

Comment #47: Auguste  on  09/02  at  03:58 PM

Man, how many of us fibromyalgia sufferers wander around, cruising internet boards as valuable distractions and social times?

Comment #48: Punditus Maximus  on  09/02  at  04:09 PM

Okay, wonders the ordinary guy with only middling psychic powers, which is it tonight?

This comment had me wondering how this woman behaves in such a situation and how she manages to broadcast it to others.  Does she wear a shirt that says “buy me a drink and I’ll give you a blow job”? Furthermore, how does she manage perfectly consistent behavior in every situation?

(Laughing)  She doesn’t have to be consistent, Ursula, she just has to be sure to wear the right t-shirt for her mood.  That joke said, I had the exact same thought and wondered if there was a market in specific t-shirts or buttons for exactly that purpose.  Or flashing mood rings? 

I wonder, though, (and on-and-off sniggering aside) the author is referring to the “I will send out ambiguous messages and you will have to figure them out and if you can’t tell which of three A’s is in fact B, C and D then you’ve blown your chance?” nonsense that is so often a part of how many women communicate with men in our dating culture.  The metaculture creates and nutures this sort of behaviour so it’s hardly surprising that so many women buy into it either unintentionally or deliberately.  The sort of people on this blog are part of a small, self-selected subset who prefer linearity and no BS in their personal relationships; that doesn’t mean that far larger numbers of people aren’t still trapped in antiquated expectations, roles and game-playing.  That sort of “let me make you guess!” silliness does give a degree of power to the woman so it’s no more surprising that some women who are conscious of it still “play it” any more than it’s surprising that there are women who dress or act to manipulate male co-workers. In a sexist society people will get what they want one of two ways: they will choose to try to ignore or change the sexist rules either individually or collectively, or they will use sexist tools to win by sexist rules.  Most folks here are the former group, but the latter group is hardly an endangered species.

Comment #49: seeker6079  on  09/02  at  04:27 PM

pitbullgirl65:

I might get flamed for this: how can any woman then be a stay at home mom, with no independant income, and consider herself a feminist? To me, if you’re dependant on a man for food, shelter, etc, you aren’t really his equal because you’re so vunerable.. Thoughts?

You can believe in equality for women without having the tools to enact it.  Lots of people in bad marriages believe in love; they just don’t have it.  Lots of people of color believe in racial equality though they don’t live in a situation that gives that to them and they don’t have the time or energy to fight it.

How much work you want to do to make things equal, when the work is difficult, perhaps opposed by everyone in your family, perhaps impossible because you have too much fucking home and child care to do, doesn’t correspond perfectly with how much of a feminist you are?

ballast:

[someone]  Which goes back to what oldfeminist said up-thread. It’s not about making feminism worth men’s while, because it’s not about men.

Really? Phew! Guess I can stop worrying about any of that nonsense now. Thanks.

It’s not nonsense, but it’s not the most important thing.  It’s auxiliary.  If it comes down to “women get equality, men are hurt” and “women don’t get equality, men are not hurt,” I vote for the former every time.

I am not willing to say, “I would like equal rights, so long as it doesn’t affect everyone else ever at all, otherwise I have to make up for it somehow.”  I can be flexible, sometimes, but I am not an appeaser.  If equality for women means men lose something, tough shit. 

Personally, I think men as a class will be better off <i>in the long run<i>, but there are going to be lots of men who lose some of their advantage and will never accept that, never want those things they would get in return. 

For example, now they have to compete with women in the job market, and if they suck, they could lose a job to a woman.  It still doesn’t happen as often as it should, but it’s more likely.  Especially as women typically do the same work for lower salaries so they’re a bargain in this economy.

Or, men aren’t always the ones elected to office, so they lose political power.  They can’t simply pass whatever laws they want about women and women’s bodies.  They can no longer depend on keeping women down politically to the degree they did in the past, where it was assumed that women must obey men unless the man is obviously incompetent.  Women no longer have the political status of child or property.  There is still a lot of that attitude out there, but they have some tools to fight it now.

In each of these cases, men are losing their UNEARNED ADVANTAGE.  Why else would they fight it? 

Some people like being little dictators.  We can posit some world where everyone’s happy with equality, but not everyone is like that.  They might be, but we can’t put them through therapy to get them to see it; part of the macho posture is not needing to see anything outside your own narrow angle of interest.

And.  I really don’t care.  Bring it on anyway.

I mean, would anyone agree that, if white people lose anything by Black people getting equal rights, well, let’s compromise?  Fuck that noise.

Comment #50: oldfeminist  on  09/02  at  04:31 PM

pitbullgirl65:

I might get flamed for this: how can any woman then be a stay at home mom, with no independant income, and consider herself a feminist? To me, if you’re dependant on a man for food, shelter, etc, you aren’t really his equal because you’re so vunerable.. Thoughts?

And I should really add that equality in theory isn’t the same as equality in meatspace.  I am equal whether you believe it, whether my husband believes it, fuck, even if I don’t believe it.  You aren’t a bad feminist or a non-feminist if you are still oppressed.

Comment #51: oldfeminist  on  09/02  at  04:34 PM

oldfeminist notes the important thing: that while feminism is about equality, equality isn’t limited to feminism.  The real target is inequality and unearned privilege.  That’s why somebody who claims, say, to be anti-racist must of necessity be feminist and LGBT2S-positive as well.  One simply can’t say “equality is important” and then leave out certain people or their groups.

It may be one of the reasons that so many people who are equality-oriented are also of the political / economic left: economic inequality and received privilege are equally debilitating to fair treatment.  (Where you go from there vis-a-vis opportunity and achievement is, naturally, a separate debate.  )

Comment #52: seeker6079  on  09/02  at  04:44 PM

For example, now they have to compete with women in the job market, and if they suck, they could lose a job to a woman.  It still doesn’t happen as often as it should, but it’s more likely.  Especially as women typically do the same work for lower salaries so they’re a bargain in this economy.

Do you think men live their daily lives in female-less vacuums? Does it not affect me if my mother’s career is undermined by my birth, or if my wife is underpaid as we try to pay off a mortgage?

In each of these cases, men are losing their UNEARNED ADVANTAGE.  Why else would they fight it?

You’re asking why many men would be uncomfortable having the mores and standards they’ve had drilled into them stripped away, to be replaced with ... things completely unfamiliar and uncertain? Huh. Dunno. People love having their worldviews torn apart, in my experience. It’s even more inviting when accompanied by other life stresses - nothing like being laid off after years on the job, or leaving school to find that not a single job opening awaits you, and then being told “You, sir, are enjoying unearned advantage. Give it up.”

Comment #53: ballast  on  09/02  at  04:50 PM

ballast, the GOP has built a massive political success story about appealing to people when they’ve been jerked around on A whilst simultaneously jerking them around on B, C, D and E.  It’s rather easy to get votes when you say, “that black guy took your job!”, but rather more difficult when your real message of “of course, we want both of you unemployed so that we can move the factory to China!” is known.  That’s why so much effort goes into making sure that these things don’t get talked about and anybody who does talk about them is branded as a granola-snorting, birkenstocked, unwashed beardie kooky-head.

One can have unearned privilege on the one hand and be jerked around by somebody else’s unearned privilege on the other.  That’s why egalitarianism has to be a consistent philosophy and constant effort, lest those at the apex always find a wedge between the disadvantaged.

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  09/02  at  05:00 PM

Ok, the Google Ads showing up right now are cracking me up:  “Why Men Always Leave You” and “Problem Attracting Women?”

Ahhh, Google Ads… The unintentional comedian. 

I don’t think these guys grow up in a “woman vacuum.”  I think they grow up to compartmentalize.  A lot.

I’m having trouble articulating exactly what I mean.  But Moms and sisters and unattractive (to them) women go in one category, and women they’d like to fuck go in the other category, that would be the category full of shallow, gold-digging whores who won’t date them.

Comment #55: GeekGirlsRule  on  09/02  at  06:28 PM

Maybe a better choice of words would be you’re not on a level playing field if you don’t have a separate income. I was trapped with no money, and it sucked. The whole SAHM movement seems to have started in the 80’s. Member the whole biological clock panic? And the famous (and flawed) Harvard/Yale study stating that a womans chances of being killed by a terriorist were greater then her marrying? If being a SAHM is so great, why the hell aren’t more men jumping on it? *
Ideally, I wish our society was structured in a way that valued all work,,  in and out of the house, and paid a living wage for it, and valued all people regardless if they can work or not.
One of my good friends is a SAHM and I definetly consider her a feminist.

*I’m aware that this is a upper middle class problem. Most people don’t have a choice if to work or stay home.

Comment #56: pitbullgirl65  on  09/02  at  06:41 PM

pitbullgirl:

how can any woman then be a stay at home mom, with no independant income, and consider herself a feminist? To me, if you’re dependant on a man for food, shelter, etc, you aren’t really his equal because you’re so vunerable..

auguste:

Sorry, let me clarify:
Arguments which take place from an implicit assumption of non-disability may be unfair…etc.
No one’s attacking your feminism because you have an illness.

oh, awesome. so my reading comprehension is faulty too.  /snark

seriously, judging women by whether or not they have a paid job is not a great idea. life is messy. there is usually a lot going on that may not be apparent to those outside a given situation. this reminds me of abortion-rights issues actually—i trust women, so i trust that they are making the right choices for them. and i try not to make assumptions about their choices/situations.

i’m not some special, unique snowflake feminist-sahm (where it’s only ok because i’m disabled). there are others, who are home for reasons different than mine. erasing/denying their existence is obnoxious. and this whole thing is perilously close to denigrating the value of the work that women and men do in the home.

you know, pitbullgirl is right. i am vulnerable. so is every single other person reading this thread. there are no guarantees—that the spouse/partner will stick around, that the job will still be there, that one’s health will not be compromised. we don’t know what is going to happen, and life is often shifted by circumstance rather than political choice.

Comment #57: sophiefair  on  09/02  at  06:44 PM

TheLady (39):

Which goes back to what oldfeminist said up-thread. It’s not about making feminism worth men’s while, because it’s not about men. Which is still such a radical, counter-intuitive notion, even today, that we have to shake ourselves every so often and repeat it out loud.

I agree with this, but thinking about it, the flack in me wonders if there’s anything wrong with getting a foot in the door by pointing out where patriarchy does, indeed, hurt men. If nothing else, it makes it easier to persuade people that feminism isn’t another word for misandry. I’m not saying feminists (qua feminists) should be fighting on behalf of men, just that noting that it sometimes works out that way is a selling point

Comment #58: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/02  at  07:45 PM

I’m really digging the function-of-language snark in the second half of the post.

Comment #59: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/03  at  12:30 AM

Everything in her article that is “confusing” is actually easy to clear up if you understand a very simple principle: women can speak, often in a language that is shared by men.
... If a man cannot read a woman’s mind, how can he know what she’s thinking?  If only women came equipped with language!  Oh wait, they fucking do. 

Shoving misogyny and denseness aside:
I don’t think people trust language. They don’t believe clear communication provides the real message. What have we been taught for years… that 70+ percent of communication is nonverbal? And, what do people who think of themselves as nice do? The first thing is, they put not hurting feelings first, and that usually means not saying exactly what’s on their minds.

So, we don’t listen to the words, because we’re too busy looking for the “more trustworthy” subtext and body language. And it’s easy to take it to an extreme, and disregard the words completely.

Comment #60: Lucy Montrose  on  09/03  at  12:52 AM

“Yet, I have many female friends/acquaintances “angry” that they can’t find a man. So is the reason they are alone because these women are afraid of asking men simple questions?  Or is it because they think that upon turning 30 women are owed a man?  Maybe I should tell them that if they started treating men like people rather than some doll in their “romance” then maybe they would deserve to find love. Whaddya think? “

Lol. wow.  wrongsideofthetracks does not at all grasp social power differential dynamics, does he. 

Apparently, he’d rather we talk only about men and how our wanting to be treated as human beings affects them, lest we be “extreme” in our desire for equality.  Cuz there’s absolutely nothing worse than being “extreme” amiright?  Esp when it might inconvenience some men.

Comment #61: Gypsy Lee  on  09/03  at  11:56 AM

“more trustworthy” subtext and body language.

FWIW, mom decided that she would marry my father based on this incident:

He went out on a date with here in a shirt that had seen much better days before then.

She didn’t like it, she didn’t say anything, and believed that her acting skills were such that her displeasure was not apparent to him.

He disappeared for a few minutes, and when he returned, he was wearing a new shirt he had purchased from a nearby store.

That’s when she realized how much she cared for him, and how crazy he was about her.

Comment #62: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/03  at  12:19 PM

It’s not about making feminism worth men’s while, because it’s not about men.

Then why the hell am I working so hard to raise feminist men??  Oh, because I think the world will be a better place if they recognize their inherent privilege and the fact that women are individual people, don’t accept sexist (racist/homophobic/ablist, etc.) tropes or allow jokes of that nature to pass without comment about how much it makes the teller look like an ignorant ass.  I want them to not accept the patterns of behavior instilled by the patriarchy as a given, but to examine how they wish to live their lives and not expect their partners to conform to practices which denigrate her or put her at a disadvantage socially, emotionally, financially, etc.  I want them to fight for equality for everyone, especially because the are privileged in ways they can’t possibly grasp yet, and they need to understand that not everyone is and that a level playing field is worth fighting for even if (or because) it would make them have to work just as hard as the next person to achieve their goals.

Comment #63: Reba  on  09/03  at  01:44 PM

Reba:

[someone] It’s not about making feminism worth men’s while, because it’s not about men.

Then why the hell am I working so hard to raise feminist men??

Because you want them to treat women (and others) fairly?  You say “a level playing field is worth fighting for even if (or because) it would make them have to work just as hard as the next person to achieve their goals.” 

You seem to be saying fairness is the goal, not making it better for men, so I don’t understand your question.  It’s about non-men, non-white, non-“able-bodied,” non-cis, non-hetero, and so on.  Men are part of the solution, but for once it’s not *about* what they want or what will make their lives happier or easier or more productive or rewarding.

Comment #64: oldfeminist  on  09/03  at  02:26 PM

wrongsideofthetracks:

I’m huge fan of “extreme” equality, and it saddens me that most of my fellow internet peers and local friends are not. They prefer ala carte equality because it’s all gain, and no pain which means it’s not really equality, but power acquisition.

I’m wondering what examples you have of this that aren’t essentially “I can be CEO but men still open doors for me and buy me dinner when we go out on dates.” 

Or that whole “I can choose to have an abortion but the guy who got me pregnant can’t decide to do that, he’s stuck with the involuntary servitude of paying for the baby and me for 18 years while I sit on my ass eating bonbons and watching soap operas all day.”

Principled, unapologetic equality will include hurt to women and men both as groups and individuals as powers get re shifted/rebalanced to the lesser privileged in a specific area. The same goes for class and race.

Sure.  But remember, enacting equality doesn’t mean pretending everyone is on a level playing field right now.

And so you made me smile when you wrote…

For example, now they have to compete with women in the job market, and if they suck, they could lose a job to a woman.
That’s the kind of brash stuff I want to hear more of.  Now go tease your friends about coed prisons and pro tennis seeded independent of gender until they go all “conservative” on you.
Then make fun of them.

Coed prisons?  Wow, the anti-ERA group have really moved up from coed bathrooms.

I actually wonder if that has been tried.

Comment #65: oldfeminist  on  09/03  at  02:33 PM

Is wrongside really claiming to be mad at feminists because they aren’t feminist enough?

Comment #66: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/04  at  06:23 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.