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Next entry: The social contract, laying in ashes Previous entry: More on right wing domestic terrorism

Consistently misogynist

There’s a tendency on the left to praise hard line anti-choicers for their “consistency” when they oppose abortion even in the case of rape or incest.  “At least,” people say, “they’re being consistent with their claim that an embryo is a real person.” It’s not like all folks who say this disagree that said anti-choicers oppose abortion because of deep-set fears about human sexuality and misogyny, but they are trying to be fair and award some sort of karma points to people whose rationalizations are more coherent.

I’ve long maintained that opposition to abortion rights even in the case of rape or incest is indeed consistent, but with overt misogyny.  It’s an expression of belief that what goes on in a woman’s head never matters, not even in cases where more tender-hearted people might give women a break.  It’s consistent in the way that arguing that you should get to sexually abuse animals because you can eat them is consistent.  It just makes you an even uglier person.  It also is, irrevocably, mixed up with a general unwillingness to take rape seriously as a crime.  For example, Christine O’Donnell is running a new ad that exploits an already ugly situation—-where a man’s fear and anger after he fought a rapist off his sister is turned into an internet joke—-to compare being taxed to being raped, but in a jokey way that makes it clear they don’t think the original attempted rape is a real problem.*  Or, to make a long story short, I think a lot of people who say “no exceptions” for rape or incest say so because they don’t think rape is a real problem, and they believe most victims brought it on themselves.

Which brings me to the Ken Buck situation.  As new details emerge about the rape case he refused to prosecute, we’re beginning to get a firm picture of his attitudes towards women and about rape, and how they inform his stance against abortion rights, even for rape victims.  And that picture is of a man who believes that once a woman has ceased to be a virgin, she loses all rights to bodily autonomy: she can and should be forced to partner with a man against her will, have sex with a man against her will, and bear children against her will. 

Whether or not you prosecute a rape case should depend on whether or not you think an actual crime has been committed.  In this case, the victim got her attacker to admit on a recorded phone call that he raped her.  But the facts of this case—-whether or not a man forced himself on a woman—-were less important, it seems, than whether or not the victim deserved to say no.  Ken Buck was skeptical.  To make it worse, he laid blame for his attitudes on an imaginary journey, suggesting that they’d believe she just had “buyer’s remorse”.  And I guess they probably would, if even the prosecutor is a believer that women are generally evil and suddenly, after having sex with someone repeatedly, they decide that they’d enjoy spending the next year or so of their lives wrapped up in legal proceedings for the hell of it.  But more importantly, Buck was obsessed with the fact that the victim had (gasp!) been sexually active before, and with the accused rapist.  I guess once he’s stuck it in you once, you belong to him forever. 

But this is what’s really weird and telling:

The suspect in this case had claimed that the victim had at one point a year or so before this event become pregnant with his child and had an abortion, which she denies, saying she miscarried. The suspect’s claim, though, is in the police report, and Buck refers to it as a reason she may be motivated to file charges where he thinks none are warranted.

“When he talks about the abortion as the reason she wants charges filed, that has nothing to do with the law or this case,” Forseth says. “That is his personal bias coming into play. He’s bringing his own personal beliefs and judgments to bear on this case, when he should be acting as a victim’s advocate.”

A prior pregnancy and abortion/miscarriage is irrelevant, if you believe that a woman has a right to terminate a relationship with a man and a right to say no to sex, even if she’s not a virgin.  But if you see pregnancy as a symbol of a man’s conquest over a woman, then both abortion and rejecting a relationship or sex with a man who has previously impregnated you are against the rules of the patriarchy. 

But what I really want to draw attention to here is how Buck understood the relationship of abortion and rape. Even though the supposed abortion happened before the rape, Buck seemed really sure there was a relationship between the woman supposedly lying about the rape and having gotten an abortion, that she was somehow trying to justify something.  Or maybe just that she’s an out-of-control rejector of the right of men to control and dominate her.  Either way, you get a clear picture of why he’s opposed to exceptions in an abortion ban for rape and incest, and it really is consistent—-consistently misogynist.

*Or maybe her campaign only thinks rape is some big joke if it’s happening to people who live in low income housing.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:01 AM • (163) Comments

Buck and his sickening ilk are cowards and control freaks whose morbid fear of women, death, life, and even other men define patriarchy.  Such “men” feel they need to band together in oppressing women because they don’t trust each other in any other capacity, and they know that most women, having to courageously navigate an unnecessarily hazardous patriarchal world, despise their male cowardice.

Comment #1: News Nag  on  10/13  at  11:18 AM

I guess once he’s stuck it in you once, you belong to him forever.

You poke it, you own it.

Comment #2: Well, what?  on  10/13  at  11:35 AM

I’m glad when there are hard-line antichoicers, because it makes their whole side seem ridiculous, and ideally, will help wedge them from the electorate.  Of course, I’m not longer confident that the electorate can be wedged away from any far-right or misogynistic opinion, so I’m also terrified of them.

Comment #3: Loch Ness Monster  on  10/13  at  11:40 AM

I’ve long maintained that opposition to abortion rights even in the case of rape or incest is indeed consistent, but with overt misogyny.  It’s an expression of belief that what goes on in a woman’s head never matters, not even in cases where more tender-hearted people might give women a break.

It could also mean that a person who is anti-choice without exception (let’s call this position ‘strong anti-choice’) has weighed the particular moral values at stake, including what goes on in a woman’s head, and come up with a different answer.  Allow me to play devil’s advocate for a moment.

A strong anti-choicer could believe that a blastocyst is a human life and thus worth as much as the rest of us.  (I disagree with this premise, but there are people who believe it.)  Thus a strong anti-choicer could weigh the value of the right to life of a blastocyst (here treated as fully human) versus the right of a woman to bodily integrity (in this case, bodily integrity being the value violated by forced pregnancy).  Rights of course often come into conflicts which have to be resolved, so the situation is not unique here.  The strong anti-choicer concludes that the right to life of an individual outweighs the right of bodily integrity of individuals. 

The strong anti-choicer holds, quite consistently, that the blastocyst (or later developmental stage) has this right to life, and that this right exists independently of the origin of the blastocyst.  Thus rape and incest are not reasons to deprive a blastocyst of its right to life.  It all makes perfect sense.

Of course, this is also a great argument for forced organ donation.  The strong anti-choicer already claims that right of an individual to life outweighs another’s right to bodily integrity.  So if Jane needs a kidney or she will die, and Bob has two healthy kidneys and only needs one to live, then Jane should get one of Bob’s kidneys.  After all, Bob can survive with one kidney, and so has no right to life argument.  This leaves Bob only with a bodily integrity argument to keep both of his kidneys.  However, the strong anti-choicer has already valued the right to life as more important than bodily integrity, so Bob is SOL on this count.  A strong anti-choicer is thus committed to forced organ donations from healthy donors.

For this reason, I propose a criteria for separating misogynist strong anti-choicers from non-misogynist strong anti-choicers:  it is a necessary (but insufficient*) condition to believe in forced organ donation (from the healthy to the dying) to be a non-misogynist strong anti-choicer.

So good karma to all those strong anti-choicers who have the intellectual consistency to advocate for both a ban on abortions AND forced organ donation.  That’s the level of dedication to consistency which impresses me!

*you could after all believe in forced organ donation and still be a misogynist.

Comment #4: Richard Goblin  on  10/13  at  11:42 AM

“You poke it, you own it.”

Also, if you’ve consented to one type of sex with someone that automatically means you’ve consented to all types of sex with that person, even if you have specifically asked them not to do it multiple times.  Which is exactly what a police officer told me.  Nice, right?

Comment #5: Meghan Elaine  on  10/13  at  11:43 AM

Ken Buck, like apparently way too many other Americans, thinks a woman’s autonomy was forfeited when as a fetus she decided to have a vagina instead of a penis.  Everything else that follows afterward is a consequence of that fateful decision.

If Colorado wants to become Utah Light, that’s one thing.  But this is a US Senate race.  The potential fates of millions of American women rest in the hands of Colorado voters.  Let’s hope they choose wisely…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  11:47 AM

“So if Jane needs a kidney or she will die, and Bob has two healthy kidneys and only needs one to live, then Jane should get one of Bob’s kidneys.”

You got that backwards.

If Bob needs a kidney and Jane has two, then she must give one up.

Bob = Real Human Being With All The Rights That Entails And A Penis (Which Is Redundant)

Jane = Ambulatory Womb, Which Deceptively Looks Human But Actually Isn’t

It’s quite simple, really…

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  11:55 AM

How in the hell does someone as fucking stupid and hateful as Ken Buck get elected to ANYTHING? The people in this country never cease to amaze me.

Comment #8: Mark  on  10/13  at  12:03 PM

Well, what @2: The sexual Pottery Barn rule?

Comment #9: Jeff  on  10/13  at  12:10 PM

I think the rise of the “logically consistent” anti-choice is more an indication of how far that anti-choice have come in terms of erasing the lives and experiences of women in the rhetorical war of fetus-worshiping.

The idea that of course abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest used to be the standard because even in their most misogynist moments, people could spare 2 seconds to think about the women in their lives, the horror of rape, and what actually being forced to bear the child of rape could potentially do to a woman. So they’re willing to give us a mulligan in the instance that we didn’t actually try to be sexual beings, because they can still think of the women in their lives and cast the mystical “but she’s not a slut so she wouldn’t need an abortion otherwise.” It’s all about exceptionalism.

But now, we’ve gotten to the point where people are perfectly happy to just not think of women in the equation at all.

Comment #10: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/13  at  12:17 PM

non-misogynist strong anti-choicers

non-entity.

Comment #11: bomberE  on  10/13  at  12:19 PM

Jeff: For those not familiar, back in 2006, Miller Lite introduced a “Man Law” commercial which contained some asinine “You poke it, you own it” line. It has since become a longrunning Pandagon Meme.

Comment #12: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/13  at  12:23 PM

“...they don’t think rape is a real problem, and they believe most victims brought it on themselves.”

A woman I knew was born in Scandinavia as the product of a wartime rape by a Nazi soldier (part of a deliberate program). This woman was raised by distant relatives who frequently reminded her that her mother had no interest in her. As an adult, she married men who physically and psychologically abused her. She was smart, funny, and optimistic, but ultimately her life fell apart and she died early of disease compounded by stress.

Fifty years of suffering because of one evil act. But hey, her mother was probably asking for it by being young and female, right?

Comment #13: Sez Who  on  10/13  at  12:26 PM

Mike Ess beat me to it, but:

The strong anti-choicer concludes that the right to life of an individual outweighs the right of bodily integrity of <strike>individuals</strike> women.

Fixed.

Comment #14: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  12:29 PM

Oh, no, it’s not that once you have sex with one guy that you’re doomed to follow his sexual orders. It’s that you have to have sex with any guy, any way, once you lose your virginity.

Comment #15: ginmar  on  10/13  at  12:30 PM

I’m gonna quote the Onion here:

Wanting to “feel out the popular attitude before committing to a position,” Virginia House of Delegates candidate Mark Earley turned to focus-group analysis Monday to determine Virginians’ stance on the hot-button issue of rape. “So far, results indicate that the state’s residents skew heavily toward anti-rape,” Earley said. “A good 99.9 percent of Virginians say they feel strongly that the state would be a better place if rape were reduced.” Earley has not yet declared whether he will adopt a hardline anti-rape stance or take a more moderate position to avoid alienating the state’s estimated 35 pro-rape voters

I thought this was pretty fun when I read it as a satire about overt dependence on polling, but it’s not so funny any more when there’s actually a pro rape politician. I almost expect the right wing to reveal that they are some kind of conceptual art group who are testing the limits as to what you can get away with saying in public.

Comment #16: librarian  on  10/13  at  12:32 PM

I don’t care how consistent they are on the who-can-get-one front, they’re anti-abortion, NOT pro-fetus. If they honestly believed that conception marked the creation of a full-fledged person equal to any other human being, their movement would be a lot more expansive. You’d expect to see a push for better pre-natal care/coverage AND better women’s care in general, since better health before pregnancy leads to better outcomes (wouldn’t that be nice!). You’d expect to see “pro-life” groups funding research on implantation (the rates of which only seem to matter to these people if birth control was in play) and miscarriage. Every “pro-life” woman would be demanding a new supplement or medication, horrified at the thought that the next “baby” she conceived would have only around a 20% chance of survival if left to its own devices.

You don’t see that, and there’s a reason for it. The most prominent one, as far as I can tell, is that God wills plenty of embryos/fetii to die, and that’s just fine. What’s not fine is messing with his plans for you, bitch!

That these people have been able to bill themselves as the compassionate ones is truly pathetic.

Comment #17: Katie Joy  on  10/13  at  12:42 PM

I’ve said before (not on this blog) that the “strong” anti-choice position is consistent, but let me hasten to add that it wasn’t because I thought that consistency was praiseworthy.  Rather the idea was to point out that that the strong position is the logical endpoint of the anti-choice view, if you subscribe to their line of reasoning that a human embryo is a human life, period.

It’s sort of like pointing out that equating abortion with murder means that not only do you have to put the physician performing the abortion on trial, but also the woman receiving one.  That usually gives even many anti-choice people pause.  So if you argue that the the anti-choice position by its own internal justifications is contradictory to the rape/incest exception, then that 1) exposes the sexism/misogyny of the anti-choice position and 2) compels people to confront that.

Comment #18: Linnaeus  on  10/13  at  12:45 PM

Richard, why discard the evidence at hand for a hypothetical, if not to make excuses for raging misogynists?

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/13  at  12:49 PM

A man bringing up accusations of abortion a year or so after the fact is a sign of a man being abusive and controlling. A not-misogynist would look at that and see it as support for the woman’s accusation because abusive, controlling men do abusive, controlling things… like rape.

But apparently, guys like Ken Buck figure being an abusive controlling asshole is just a natural, gOd-ordered state of affairs.

Comment #20: Phoebe Fay  on  10/13  at  12:57 PM

@Meghan Elaine #5

The cop you mentioned reminds me of the time when two of my friends were groped by “monsters” in a spook alley during Halloween when we were in high school.  We called the police, and the officer that showed up dismissed it with a wave of his hand and a “You’re pretty girls - you’d better get used to it.”  That was the extent of his police work related to our foolish little complaint.

Comment #21: mythbri  on  10/13  at  12:57 PM

Richard, why discard the evidence at hand for a hypothetical, if not to make excuses for raging misogynists?

I think he’s making the point that you’re not going to find a lot of Americans, let alone anti-choicers, who believe in and advocate for forced organ donation (the condition under one can claim to be a non-misogynist anti-choicer). I’d estimate the number well below 1% of the general population, and even less amongst right-wing religious fantasists.  .: 99%+ of anti-choicers are indeed misogynists.

That said, I’d agree with you that the point, amusing as it is, is rather superfluous to the discussion of this particular scumbag as an exemplar of the type.

Comment #22: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  01:09 PM

I have no love for Buck, who would be a disaster for Colorado and the US, but this rape case is not a serious reason to oppose him. He believed that she had been raped and never tried to convince her otherwise; the much-touted phone conversation the victim recorded was of him trying to explain why they didn’t think the case could be successfully prosecuted, not him telling her she was a slut who deserved it.

Other people in the prosecutor’s office also felt the case was not prosecutable. Buck made a referral to the Boulder DA’s office, which had considerably more experience than his small rural county’s office in prosecuting sexual assault cases, to get their opinion, and THEY didn’t think it was prosecutable. Buck’s tenure as DA, in fact, saw improvement in how the office handled sexual assault cases.

Pretty good overview at http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20101013/NEWS/101019895/1002&parentprofile=1001

I think we should oppose Buck because his political positions are bad, but this type of story doesn’t end up boosting our credibility.

Comment #23: Alkaloid  on  10/13  at  01:26 PM

@ MikeEss

You got that backwards.

Exactly my point in choosing that particular hypothetical.

@Emmett

non-entity

Yep.

@Amanda Marcotte

Richard, why discard the evidence at hand for a hypothetical, if not to make excuses for raging misogynists?

Read it again, but keep Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal” in mind.

@Graccus

I think he’s making the point that you’re not going to find a lot of Americans, let alone anti-choicers, who believe in and advocate for forced organ donation (the condition under one can claim to be a non-misogynist anti-choicer).

More to the point, anyone standing behind logical consistency to defend their anti-choice position is going to have to defend all sorts of indefensible positions.  I have found this argument a great tool for bringing the underlying misogyny of the anti-choice crowd to the surface.

Comment #24: Richard Goblin  on  10/13  at  01:45 PM

“Richard Goblin” wrote a superfluous and distracting typically desensitized-male riff using some kind of mental jerkoff ‘consistency’ theme for no apparent reason other than to just, well, jerk off mentally. I think Richard himself embodies the ‘consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds’ role very, very well.

Comment #25: News Nag  on  10/13  at  01:52 PM

Wow, does Richard Goblin have some sort of history here, because I did not see anything fucked up in what he wrote?

Comment #26: Fatman  on  10/13  at  02:01 PM

Alkaloid, ignoring crimes to plump up the DA’s “wins” for the sake of maintaining his political post is a disservice to the public.  And it’s part of the reason why very few acts of rape result in the conviction of the offender.  Every time a DA decides that the victim isn’t pure enough to go to court, he upholds vicious stereotypes that feed into a culture that only pretends to be anti-rape.  This results in fewer victims even bothering to report their attacks, which also in turn feeds rape culture.  It’s disgusting and we absolutely should hold this asshole accountable for this decision.

Comment #27: Blitzgal  on  10/13  at  02:01 PM

It’s sort of like pointing out that equating abortion with murder means that not only do you have to put the physician performing the abortion on trial, but also the woman receiving one.  That usually gives even many anti-choice people pause.

Which was nice while it lasted, but if they can dissolve this counter-argument:

People could spare 2 seconds to think about the women in their lives, the horror of rape, and what actually being forced to bear the child of rape could potentially do to a woman ...

... that sets the groundwork for eliminating others too. Once you’ve decided to completely ignore the well-being of the walking womb, why stop at any particular point?

Comment #28: cycles  on  10/13  at  02:05 PM

Question, why are so many Americans freaked out about abortion? When other countries legalized abortion, it didn’t seem to produce the collective freak out that it did in the United States. Misongyny only takes a person so far as an answer because many of the European countries aren’t exactly beyond the Patriarchy and misongyny themselves. Nor is religion an answer since abortion is legal in Israel* and it doesn’t create a freakout among Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who aren’t exactly shy about letting their opinions known. It can’t be because abortion rights were created through Supreme Court opinion in America because Canada created them the same way, without the freak out. What is it about America that causes such a large freak out about a simple medical procedure.

  *Technically, abortions must be applied for and approved bureaucratically in Israel but the applications are approved at rate of about 100%. Its an interesting way of handling the situation.

Comment #29: Lee  on  10/13  at  02:08 PM

Likely Buck was merely projecting his own misogyny on the prospective Weld County jury pool. Date rape is still rape just as domestic violence is still violence. Yet the issue of lack of consent would be far from a slam-dunk: the rapist’s defense attorney could make an argument that the woman had invited him to her house for a reconciliation, and that she voluntarily drank to lower her inhibitions for anticipated reunion sex.

Comment #30: Hector B.  on  10/13  at  02:11 PM

I think the tendency on the Left to praise the monstrous consistency of the anti-Choicers because more than a few people on the Left don’t believe in completely demonizing their opponents even when their opponents are already demons. Much of liberal/progressive thought on human nature assumes that people are basically good and doesn’t really do well when confronted with people who aren’t good. The result is a search for something good about the person in question and often a banal quality like consistency is turned into a virtue even if it isn’t actually all that virtuous.

Comment #31: Lee  on  10/13  at  02:13 PM

Ralph Waldo Emerson: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

And we’ve got more than enough evidence to back that up in the real world.

Comment #32: BrianX  on  10/13  at  02:22 PM

@Lee #29

It’s hard to say why there are such extreme anti-choice reactions in the U.S. as opposed to other countries.  Perhaps it’s because our relatively young country continues to be influenced by the first waves of European colonies (or the romantic idea of them, anyway) - I’ve always thought that the U.S., in general, has a Puritanical reluctance to accept progressive/changing social issues.  I think that the Catholic Church in the U.S. has a great deal to do with stirring up anti-choice fervor, and I believe that the American Catholic influence is behind many of the terrible medical restrictions present in some Central and South American countries (i.e. no life-saving medical procedures for pregnant women if there is a danger of harming the fetus).  I’m not familiar enough with the major anti-choice players to give you a definitive answer, though.

Comment #33: mythbri  on  10/13  at  02:26 PM

Much of liberal/progressive thought on human nature assumes that people are basically good and doesn’t really do well when confronted with people who aren’t good.

Speak for yourself.

Comment #34: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  02:29 PM

@Lee: Slacktivist’s Fred Clark has implied that americans freak out about abortion and gays because they “can’t” freak out publicly about desegregation anymore, so demagogue religious leaders needed a new scarecrow to rally the masses. I’m really not feeling well right now to go on searching, and I haven’t found it so far, but the argument is kind of delineated in these:
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2009/06/killing-in-the-name-of.html
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2007/11/gay-hatin-gospe.html
(I still think I’ve read a post where he says it about abortion)

Comment #35: colorlessblue  on  10/13  at  02:40 PM

Ok, to be completely honest now I have to say there’s a possibility that I mixed a lot of different arguments and ended up saying something that Fred Clark didn’t say. I still think he did, but I can’t find it, and I’m sick enough that the possibility that I got confused exists.

Comment #36: colorlessblue  on  10/13  at  02:47 PM

What is it about America that causes such a large freak out about a simple medical procedure. - Lee

Because getting pregnant involves teh sechs which itself causes ‘Murkins to freak out.  You give the example of Israel which also has some, shall we say, pretty interesting things on TeeVee and the ultra-Orthodox don’t freak out about that either, in part because the ultra-Orthodox, as much as they insist on “modesty”, etc., don’t freak out about teh sechs in the same way Christian fundamentalists (given the attitudes of Paul, Augustine, et al. about teh sechs) do.

Well, actually part of the issue is that many of the ultra-Orthodox in Israel (except for the small but growing minority of religious Zionists) really don’t care much for Israel as a state or society in general, because Zionism is a misguided, secular movement as far as they are concerned.  What they care about is that nobody “interferes” with their way of life (e.g. by daring to not dress modestly in their presence or by daring to drive anywhere near them on the Shabbos) and, more importantly, that they continue to get $$$ and political power (over religious matters) from the government.

So long as their yeshivas are filled with young men with draft deferments and the government pays for their Rabbis, synagogue upkeep and they have the final say over all religious matters (e.g. who marries whom, who prays where at the Kotel and who gets to convert whom to Judaism) they could care less about who does what with whom and when in the secular side of Israel ... well, unless it involves non-Shabbos-dig activity on Saturday within a mile or two radius of one of their neighborhoods.

Comment #37: DAS  on  10/13  at  02:51 PM

“Richard Goblin” wrote a superfluous and distracting typically desensitized-male riff using some kind of mental jerkoff ‘consistency’ theme for no apparent reason other than to just, well, jerk off mentally. I think Richard himself embodies the ‘consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds’ role very, very well.

Reading comprehension fail.  (And what the hell is a “desensitized-male riff” anyway?)

I think the tendency on the Left to praise the monstrous consistency of the anti-Choicers because more than a few people on the Left don’t believe in completely demonizing their opponents even when their opponents are already demons.

I don’t even think the strong anti-choicers (i.e. those who believe in no exceptions) are particularly consistent.  I don’t think they have thought through the implications of their position, like forced organ harvesting.  I would bet that every last one of them will balk at the idea of forced organ harvesting, and murmur something like “but that’s different” while being unable to give a meaningful distinction.  I not only disagree with any praise strong anti-choicers for their so-called consistency, I don’t think the praise is warranted in the first place.  This is because if you push them you will find that they are not really consistent.

Nor do I think they are demons.  They are just scared and hateful human beings.  The less hateful ones can be reached, the more hateful ones will cling stubbornly to their beliefs despite (and in many cases because of) the fact that their arguments are rooted in misogyny and ultimately serve no purpose except to oppress women.

Comment #38: Richard Goblin  on  10/13  at  02:57 PM

DAS, why do keep misspelling sex and the?

Comment #39: Lee  on  10/13  at  03:05 PM

Lee:  It’s not unusual (cue Tom Jones!) for commenters here and at other blogs to use misspellings/typos in an ironic fashion.  It’s a way of making fun of Internet rants (often of the right-wing variety) that often contain those errors.

Comment #40: Linnaeus  on  10/13  at  03:09 PM

Now had Ken Buck been a North Carolinian, he’d have just argued that rape is legal if she gave her consent to sex at any point. Apparently, women can’t withdraw their consent here. I wonder how many other states have similar legal precedents.

The link goes to a petition to end that stupidness, by the way. Have at it.

Comment #41: Jeff  on  10/13  at  03:25 PM

Some catholic group sponsored an anti-choice rally on campus when I was in college. One of my friends decided to go check out the opposition. One of the points they made was that rape was “a pro-choice word.”

Lee at 29—

The US isn’t the only country to flip its shit over abortion. In Ireland, abortion is illegal. I was in dublin in 2008 when Ireland was voting on whether to ratify the Lisbon Treaty (regarding the constitution of the EU). A big theme in the campaign against the treaty was that it was a secret, European plot to legalize abortion in Ireland.

Comment #42: alysia  on  10/13  at  03:35 PM

“buyers remorse”

Sounds like Buck likes Warren Farrell.

Perhaps I’m naive but sometimes I like it when these anti’s say that no exceptions for rape or incest should occur (one also wonders about how far down in the age bracket they’d do this as well) because it’s against the mainstream. I like it because for anyone that says “I’m opposed to abortion except in cases of rape or incest” it’s an opportunity to bring up why, if you think it’s the equivalent of murder would you allow it in the case of rape? If you believe it’s killing a person regardless, then why should rape make a difference? Maybe it allows them to reflect on how extreme the idea is that a zygote, blastocyst, or embryo is a person. Then you ask how they would even allow for a rape/incest exception as trials would take too long and maybe never get convicted or it would increase the false rape report rate. You also ask why in the world should she pay for a birth/cesarean when she didnt even want it? For some women who live pay-check by pay-check it would be the difference between keeping their job (pregnancy takes its toll) and being homeless. It’s not like these women have a spare $10,000 waiting around. If they have families they will also be forced into homelessness and maybe even seperated from their mother.  It also allows them to ponder exactly if it IS murder then how long should she get in prison? The ‘no exceptions’ claim allows a window to open in which they see that maybe it’s an extremist perception to have and also allows the mainstream population that’s unaffiliated with repro rights the chance to see the realities of the anti-movement especially in regards to other no exceptions like in health and death. It induces them to not be so flippant and superficial. But then again, maybe I’m simply naive?

Comment #43: BeanS  on  10/13  at  03:38 PM

And what the hell is a “desensitized-male riff” anyway?

He’s just a little brought down because, when you knocked, he thought you were the candyman.

Comment #44: Sarcastro  on  10/13  at  03:41 PM

In Ireland, abortion is illegal.

I think it’s even illegal to leave the country for the purpose of seeking an abortion elsewhere.  Women do it, of course, but it’s against the law.  (That is all kinds of fucked up.)

Comment #45: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  03:44 PM

It appears that a lot of anti-abortion belief, like anti-gays, is based in the christian religion. The belief that an unbaptized baby will burn in Hell forever, or it’s soul will suffer in some other awful and eternal way.  (Yep, that’s the belief of the religion of peace and love and forgiveness!)  There is also the “God’s Plan” belief, tho why we should give a flying fuck what God wants, considering “his” actions in the past, I can’t comprehend.

And of course there is the Woman Hatred, passed down to us thru the ages by all religions and societies.  The conviction that women are to blame for just about everything bad in the world, that we’re born DIRTY -as is demonstrated when we bleed once a month- DIRTY DIRTY DIRTY!.  And it is Our Fault that men lust after us: we must be deliberately provoking that sensation!  Therefore pregnancy and the agonies and dangers of childbirth are our Just Punishment for being ... dirty.  A woman who evades the penalty for lust -whether her own or the lust she deliberately provoked in some man- is CHEATING!  She’s as bad a the person who sneaks 15 items in a “10 items” checkout lane, as bad as the single individual who drives in the carpool lane:  She’s Getting Away With Breaking The Rules!  This cannot be allowed! Because she’s DIRTY: the ever-flowing fountainhead of Original Sin.

There is also a lot of determined ignorance of what happens when an egg is fertilized & implanted a few days later, of how a blastocyst develops, when the fetus takes on human characteristics, and how and when it becomes what we recognize as “Human”: when all the organs are formed, including the brain.
 
The anti-abortion people claim that because a clump of cells is 1) alive and 2) has human chromosomes, it is (in their opinion) entirely as human as the woman who is carrying it, and deserves the same legal and moral right to live as she does, or perhaps even MORE rights since it is (microscopically) small and unable to defend itself.

Comment #46: Kwillow  on  10/13  at  03:44 PM

I don’t care how consistent they are on the who-can-get-one front, they’re anti-abortion, NOT pro-fetus. If they honestly believed that conception marked the creation of a full-fledged person equal to any other human being, their movement would be a lot more expansive. You’d expect to see a push for better pre-natal care/coverage AND better women’s care in general, since better health before pregnancy leads to better outcomes (wouldn’t that be nice!). You’d expect to see “pro-life” groups funding research on implantation (the rates of which only seem to matter to these people if birth control was in play) and miscarriage. Every “pro-life” woman would be demanding a new supplement or medication, horrified at the thought that the next “baby” she conceived would have only around a 20% chance of survival if left to its own devices.

Exactly.  If the anti-choice crowd, the so-called “pro-lifers,” were so enamored with human life, they’d be picketing Congress, not abortion clinics, demanding universal health care, particularly for pregnant women and children.  They would rage against the wars in Irag and Afghanistan.*

But no, these are the same people who shiver with delight at the idea of killing the evil Islamists.  And universal health care?  That’s SOCIALISM!

The “no exceptions” crowd are consistent in their hatred of women.  I see no evidence of their love of baaaybees.

*(Cue someone bringing up their dear Aunt Millie, who is pro-life and a proponent of universal health care, etc.  Meh.  One anecdote doth not make a movement.)

Comment #47: adobedragon  on  10/13  at  03:48 PM

#29 when Spain legalized it, it did cause a freak-out. It seems to be Catholic countries that have the biggest freak-out. Even Afghanistan allows abortion in the case of death but Phillipines, Dominican Republic, Chile, ect those that are Catholic and either formal or informal theocracies dont.

Comment #48: BeanS  on  10/13  at  04:00 PM

Kristin, the right of women in Ireland* to travel for abortion has been guaranteed since 1992. (the Miss X case). Preventing it would be contrary to EU law. Lifesaving (but not healthsaving) abortion is available within Ireland, but, probably not surprisingly, what counts as lifesaving can be open to challenge.

*Adults - I’m not sure about the position of minors. The state has more recently tried to prevent minors in state care from travelling. I’ve no idea about women in prison.

Comment #49: Nineveh  on  10/13  at  04:16 PM

Not to mention that the “consistency” wing of people opposed to abortion rights need to go picket in front of infertility clinics and throw the well-paid purveyors in prison, stat.  It’s murder, innit?  IVF causes many fertilized embryos to be flushed down the toilet. 

Will nobody think of the blastocysts?

Oh wait, dudes are getting rich flushing these lifeforms down the toilet.  And to the extent women are involved, they’re fighting for their right to be inseminated and give birth.  Never mind.  We now return to our regularly scheduled misogyny.

Comment #50: Unree  on  10/13  at  04:18 PM

@ Nineveh:


Good to know, and glad to hear it.  (I remember being outraged when I first heard about that law.)  Thanks

Comment #51: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  04:19 PM

<blockquote.If they honestly believed that conception marked the creation of a full-fledged person equal to any other human being, their movement would be a lot more expansive.</blockquote>

As stated and responded to.

Additionally, someone whose focus was the need to protect any life, once conceived would also make a strong distinction between contraception and abortion. Abortion would be the absolute, comparable to murder, while contraception would be a theological style point, like not remarrying after divorce, not having sex outside of marriage, or not eating proscribed food, requirements for attending church services or participating in sacraments, and so on.

As in, “nobody should engage in abortion, and faithful Christians shouldn’t use contraception.” Instead, as is very often and very validly discussed here, abortion is clearly part and parcel of sex-shaming and merely a tool in the culture wars.

There would also be a far, far more developed system in place to take care of pregnant women and their unborn babies, even if the women were subsequently pitched out into the street after giving birth if they were willing to give up the child.

And, of course, the other oft-cited point, that if you actually believe abortion is murder, you should be fighting for the arrest, prosecution, and incarceration of women who have abortions, not just repeal of the laws allowing it.

Comment #52: Lymis  on  10/13  at  04:22 PM

Alkaloid @ 23:

I recognize that DAs are often hesitant to prosecute cases that they don’t believe they can win, but the fundamental problem in this situation isn’t that Buck didn’t convict the alleged rapist, it’s that he didn’t even bother trying to convict him.

I get that DAs hate losing their courtroom battles. And perhaps this was a case that was likely to result in an acquittal regardless of how it would be prosecuted. But if he genuinely believed that the victim had been raped, he had a duty to seek justice, even if his odds of succeeding in court were nearly nil. The disgust towards Buck in this matter is that he didn’t even try to go after the perp. His cynical take on the matter was that his reputation would suffer because of an acquittal, and therefore he was justified in not prosecuting the case. It was as if his own win-loss record in court was more important than pursuing justice for the victim.

Comment #53: DTGslu2K  on  10/13  at  04:25 PM

The cleanest analogy to what abortion opponents want to claim justifies their stance is this, and I’ve been arguing it for years:  Ok, you say “life” is at stake and the woman must have that baby regardless of her wishes or circumstances.  I want a national, no exceptions law that says if you have two healthy kidneys, or bone marrow, something in your body that can be donated to let another person live and not die, you will be required by law to donate your kidney to the person needing it.

Mandatory in vivo organ donation!  Yay!

But, but but babies are different!  What if I don’t want to donate my kidney?  It’s my right not to!  You can’t just make me do something like that if I don’t consent!

O’really?

Comment #54: Stable Mabel  on  10/13  at  04:28 PM

<blockquote>DAS, why do keep misspelling sex and the?/<blockquote>

“Teh” is one of the most famous Internet neologisms around… it even has its own article on teh Wikipedia.

Comment #55: DTGslu2K  on  10/13  at  04:29 PM

It appears that a lot of anti-abortion belief, like anti-gays, is based in the christian religion.
...
If they honestly believed that conception marked the creation of a full-fledged person equal to any other human being, their movement would be a lot more expansive.

And if clergy really believed that conception marked the creation of a full-fledged person, they would have funerals for miscarriages. There would be tiny gravesites in Catholic cemeteries.

Comment #56: Hector B.  on  10/13  at  04:39 PM

I don’t know, guys, if a conservative that really genuinely believes a blastocyst is a person would necessarily care whether or not that “person” got enough folic acid in utero. I do think it’s about empowering the state to mandate gendered obligations in a panicked attempt to keep the knots of oppression from unraveling, but just because a blastocyst is morally a person to someone doesn’t necessarily mean that someone thinks anyone outside the blastocyst’s immediate family has any pressing responsibility towards it besides that one bit where a woman has to be forced to let it live off her internal organs. Consider how your average pro-blastocytic-personhood conservative might feel about, say, convicted criminals, or undocumented immigrants, or, depending on the conservative, poor children. Do they have any obligation to make sure they get folic acid?

(I think the most anti-woman thing about the whole damn business is the floating fetus picture, which renders the person doing the hard and dangerous work of pregnancy literally invisible. What can I say, it bugs the shit out of me.)

Comment #57: purpleshoes  on  10/13  at  05:08 PM

Thank you, Hector B.  It really bothers me how rarely anyone is honest enough to admit that we don’t treat zygotes/embrytos/even fetuses as people unless a woman wants an abortion. 

I think part of the freak-out is the lack of understanding of the challenges of pregnancy and the lack of complexity of a concepti.  Before my miscarriage, I remember being excited for the second trimester, because that’s when it starts looking like a person.  I was sort of horrified by how not-human and fragile and unsophisticated concepti are for the whole first trimester.  I miscarried at around 9 weeks, and the embryo was only 2.16 cm long and did not look like a person, let alone have any of those person-like qualities (i.e., thinking) that distinguish us from the legally dead.

Comment #58: Ismone  on  10/13  at  05:09 PM

I wonder if Ken Buck has mason jars in his basement filled with his seed.  After all if “any sperm gets wasted god gets quite irate”

Maybe a reportyer should ask him about it

Comment #59: John Rove  on  10/13  at  05:16 PM

“I don’t know, guys, if a conservative that really genuinely believes a blastocyst is a person would necessarily care whether or not that “person” got enough folic acid in utero.”

“Folic Acid”?  If God wanted you to get enough “folic acid” (whatever that is - I bet you just made that up), then He’d make sure you got it.

I bet you believe in “science” and “evolution” too, you dirty hippie liberal.

I believe Insane Clown Posse put it best when they said:
Water, fire, air and dirt
Fucking magnets, how do they work?
And I don’t wanna talk to a scientist
Y’all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that’s some deep, godly thinking right there, yessiree.  That’s a tiny glimpse into the world your votes can bring, if you vote Republican…

BTW, Sister Christine Immaculata O’Donnell reminds us all that if you touch your wee-wee or hoo-ha more than once in the space of an hour, you’ll burn in perdition’s fires…

Comment #60: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  05:35 PM

Linnaeus @18 said it pretty well. the point about extreme anti-choicers being consistent isn’t about those extremists, but to emphasize the fundamental inconsistency of anti-choicers who consider themselves moderate because they are willing to make exceptions for incest/rape/(occasionally) life of the mother. it helps demonstrate to these deluded moderates that the animus to outlaw choice is motivated by something other than the sanctity of life.

Hector B., there are plenty of people who do make little coffins and graves for miscarriages.

Comment #61: cj  on  10/13  at  06:03 PM

I can now recognize a MikeEss post six words in.

Comment #62: Ranylt  on  10/13  at  06:07 PM

@Murrow Fan - you seem like a bright person. If DAs adapted the strategy you suggest of prosecuting every crime they believe occurred, without regard to the viability of the prosecutions in court, what would be the impact on the criminal justice system?

I can think of a couple of consequences that would be disastrous for crime victims, including and perhaps especially rape victims. For one thing, you would quickly start seeing more cynical juries, because they would be aware that the prosecutors are going to throw every ball as far down the field as they can regardless of the merits.

More directly, DAs have a limited resource base. Right now they ration their resources with an eye towards maximizing convictions. If they ration their resources with an eye towards maximizing prosecutions, then many viable prosecutions will fail for lack of sufficient prosecutorial resources. Yeah, the DA’s office COULD have spent the week it would have taken to nail down all the evidence in the Jones case…but they had to get started on the Smith, Wesson, and Barney cases all the same week, so it just didn’t get done. And Jones walks.

Jones’ victims have a right to justice, too. A strategy of seeking convictions has costs and consequences for victims (as in this case), but other strategies impose larger costs. Throw more resources at prosecutors? We already spend vast sums - and there are constituencies in the justice system that have equally pressing needs. Public defenders, for one.

On another topic, I would be interested in seeing Amanda’s views on Kenneth Katz, the DA in Wisconsin who has become notorious (and had to resign) for trying to pick up female crime victims who came to his office for help.

Comment #63: Alkaloid  on  10/13  at  06:11 PM

It’s not like all folks who say this disagree that said anti-choicers oppose abortion because of deep-set fears about human sexuality and misogyny, but they are trying to be fair and award some sort of karma points to people whose rationalizations are more coherent.

Or perhaps, Amanda, pointing out that this is a consistent position is not an attempt to award them karma points, but a way of expressing annoyance at the inconsistent position of “save the poor wee babies, save for rape or incest”.

I award the “no exceptions” policy the possibility of being morally motivated - even if, as you point out, misogyny tends to be the motivating force on closer examination.  The “exceptions” policy lacks even that possibility.

Comment #64: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/13  at  06:11 PM

Nineneveh, wasn’t there a recent case of yet another girl trying to get an abortion after a rape, who was prevented from doing so?

Comment #65: ginmar  on  10/13  at  06:37 PM

Alkaloid,

If you think juries aren’t already cynical, think again.  The point is, if you try cases where the victim is willing that is how you learn about how to win those cases.  Also individual jurors also are not, for the most part, repeat players.  As far as resources—the DA’s office has more of them than the PD’s they almost exclusively oppose, so cry me a river.  When you have a cooperative, articulate victim, and a perpetrator who admits to the crime, trying the case is something of a no-brainer.  Hey!  Maybe he’d admit to it on the stand/look like a liar there!  What a thought.

Comment #66: Ismone  on  10/13  at  07:02 PM

On another topic, I would be interested in seeing Amanda’s views on Kenneth Katz, the DA in Wisconsin who has become notorious (and had to resign) for trying to pick up female crime victims who came to his office for help.

Pick up?  That’s a really telling choice of words.  Some of call Katz’s actions sexual harrasment.

Comment #67: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  07:05 PM

Some of us call…

Comment #68: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  07:07 PM

Lee asked why the freakout about abortion? Because it’s a tool for political power, pure and simple. The religious right in this country has been been working on a planned, coordinated power play for almost 40 years, and they’ve been using the culture wars to get their funding and to get idiots to vote against their own interests.

Keep in mind, the freakout about abortion wasn’t immediate after Roe v. Wade. At the time, there were so many other culture war targets with nice, established histories, mostly dirty fucking hippies and black people who wouldn’t stay in their place. Sure, the Catholics got upset about it, but the evangelicals didn’t start worrying about it until the 1980s. Why then? My theory is that it’s because most of the hippies were turning into yuppies, so they weren’t a good target anymore, and racism was becoming something you didn’t express overtly in polite society, which made using it trickier. The big guns needed a new fundraising tool, and abortion stepped into the breach. It’s been a handy fundraising cudgel ever since.

Comment #69: Phoebe Fay  on  10/13  at  07:12 PM

“Sexual harassment” would be a fair description. I wasn’t trying to descriptively characterize him for the ages, I was just trying to reference the case.

Comment #70: Alkaloid  on  10/13  at  07:13 PM

@Ismone - sure, maybe he would. So also, maybe, would the guy that you didn’t prosecute because you’re prosecuting this guy instead. Resources are finite. A lavishly-funded DAs office can probably go after most every major crime that’s reported and a lot of the minor ones too. Weld County is not a lavishly-funded DAs office.

My thesis is that the greatest quantity of justice to all victims is dispensed when prosecutors ration their resources on the basis of the perceived likelihood of conviction. Thus far the main strategy argued in opposition is that prosecutors should not ration resources at all and instead should prosecute all comers. If this is a misunderstanding of what strategy is felt appropriate, I welcome more information.

Comment #71: Alkaloid  on  10/13  at  07:19 PM

OK, my post got et when I tried to send it from a cell phone, so apologies if it eventually does show up and I sound repetetive:

I’ve used the consistency argument, but neither I nor anyone else I’ve heard use it did so in a complimentary manner; it was always directed at cherry-pickers to show them not that there are better religious folk out there than you but that your religion is awful no matter what part of it you take.  If you hate gay people because the Bible says you should but won’t go as far as stoning them to death, you’re a hypocrite—but make no mistake, if you do go that far, you’re a psychopath.  “Look how much of a monster you’d have to be before your beliefs make sense,” is essentially what I’d be saying with that.

“Wow, your insane, misogynistic ranting sure is philosophically consistent” is faint praise where I come from.

Comment #72: nekouken  on  10/13  at  07:30 PM

Whether or not you prosecute a rape case should depend on whether or not you think an actual crime has been committed.

Ordinarily, I might say here, no, whether or not you prosecute a rape case should depend on whether you think a rape can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, although that assessment must be made honestly, and not as a pretext for misogyny.

But of course, the linked articles make it clear that Buck wasn’t thinking in my terms at all.  Instead, he told her that he, personally, thought she had consented—even though the rapist confessed on tape that it was rape.  He’s thinking in Amanda’s terms, but being a shithead, he’s getting it wrong.

Speaking as a lawyer, although not a Colorado lawyer, it’s a mystery to me when the taped confession was supposedly obviously inadmissible.  Most states allow admission of recordings taped with the consent of one participant—only a few require consent of all participants.  The last time I looked, Colorado followed the majority rule.

Comment #73: rea  on  10/13  at  07:33 PM

Alkaloid,

Rape cases are notoriously underprosecuted.  Rape victims are already getting less than their fair share of the DA’s resources.  And the DA usually has more resources than the PD, but the DA uses them on fewer cases because they can always dismiss/offer a misdemeanor plea that will be taken.  Plus, rape is a crime against the person, and rapists are often recidivists, so if anything, we should be prosecuting them more, not less, than say, drug offenders.  Murder cases also require a lot of resources.

Comment #74: Ismone  on  10/13  at  07:47 PM

Richard Goblin @4: sadly, even though I’d very much like your argument about no-exceptions abortion and forced organ donation to work, I don’t think it does.  There are two pairs of alternatives being considered here:

1. (a) Allowing a pregnant woman to have the abortion she seeks.
  (b) Forbidding a pregnant woman from having the abortion that she seeks.
2. (a) Allowing a person with two kidneys to keep both.
  (b) Forcing a person with two kidneys to give one up.

In case (1), both choices involve medical risks for the woman; either the woman is forced to undergo a risky bodily process, or she’s allowed to undergo a risky medical procedure to avoid the former.  In case (2), however, it’s a choice between forcing a person to undergo a medical procedure that puts them at substantial additional risk, or allowing them to continue going on like they normally would.

Comment #17: Katie Joy on 10/13 at 11:42 AM

I don’t care how consistent they are on the who-can-get-one front, they’re anti-abortion, NOT pro-fetus. If they honestly believed that conception marked the creation of a full-fledged person equal to any other human being, their movement would be a lot more expansive.  You’d expect to see a push for better pre-natal care/coverage AND better women’s care in general, since better health before pregnancy leads to better outcomes (wouldn’t that be nice!). You’d expect to see “pro-life” groups funding research on implantation (the rates of which only seem to matter to these people if birth control was in play) and miscarriage. Every “pro-life” woman would be demanding a new supplement or medication, horrified at the thought that the next “baby” she conceived would have only around a 20% chance of survival if left to its own devices.

Yes, but as PiotR points out @64, this sort of analysis is the point of bringing logic into the argument.

Comment #75: sacundim  on  10/13  at  07:49 PM

@ 69

The right also uses abortion as a sort of “get out of morality free” card. Like the last thread about domoestic terrorism where the guy showed up and said “oh yeah, well ABORTION.” Being anti-choice is the goto non sequitor for anytime Democrats either point out Republican corruption or make a moral choice for an argument. I have had the “I support policy A because it is the right thing to do.” “ABORTION!!!!!11!!” argument a thousand times.

Comment #76: alysia  on  10/13  at  07:58 PM

Speaking of “The Bed Intruder Song”,  I just read that Antoine Dobson performed it at the BET Hip Hop Awards last night!  So errrrrrbody make sure you DVR it!  And run and tell that, run and tell that homeboy, home home homeboy to errrrrrrbody you know!

All yall feminists need to lighten up.  That song is hilarious!  Everybody loves it: blacks, whites, men and women of all ages.  It’s bringing the country together, really.

Comment #77: bobby  on  10/13  at  08:04 PM

@Rea - That is correct, in Colorado as long as one party to the conversation knows it is being recorded, it is legal. That said, I don’t know anything about the tape and why it wasn’t considered admissible.

@Ismone - Yes, more prosecutions (of legitimate crimes) would be a good thing. Nobody disputes that. The question is, with the resources that are available, how should they be deployed. My thinking is that the DA’s obligation is to the community at large, and that s/he needs to produce the most (honest, correct) convictions possible for whatever resource base is available.

Comment #78: Alkaloid  on  10/13  at  08:14 PM

Right, and that suggests more resources being put towards convicting sex offenders, who attack multiple victims and commit crimes against the person.  Also, this whole resources argument is a red herring, he did not claim that he failed to prosecute this crime based on lack of resources.

Comment #79: Ismone  on  10/13  at  09:02 PM

Yes, more prosecutions (of legitimate crimes) would be a good thing. Nobody disputes that. The question is, with the resources that are available, how should they be deployed. My thinking is that the DA’s obligation is to the community at large, and that s/he needs to produce the most (honest, correct) convictions possible for whatever resource base is available.

How should they be deployed?  Strategic Management.

SM is a technique I learned up when I was working on my MPA (Masters of Public Administration).  In short, SM states that the most expensive resources are applied to the most mission-critical problems first, and if there are any remaining resources available, they get deployed to the next-most-critical problems, and so on and so forth until resources are depleted.

My proposition is really pretty simple, in that I think we need to prosecute crimes against persons first; murder, aggravated assault, armed robbery, rape, and so on. 

THEN, we prosecute crimes against property next; burglary, larceny, forgery (with intent to defraud or for gain), arson, police and political corruption, and so forth.

LASTLY, if and only if there are any resources left, should we prosecute victimless crimes like drug possession and trafficking, prostitution/soliciting/pandering, and other infractions which are only pursued because they exist in black (or gray) markets and thereby deprive governments of tax revenues on transactions. 

Super simple, and if any of the involved politicians and agency officials had bothered to attend just one graduate seminar on Public Agency Management, they’d know this information and would have implemented it already. 

Oh wait…that would have required them to be score well enough on the GRE to get into a graduate program in the first place.  Looks like Buck will just have to be disbarred for being too stupid to hold his office.

Comment #80: Mezosub  on  10/13  at  09:02 PM

And what Ismone said. 

Lack of resources argument is a red herring. 

Otherwise, an ordinary schmoe like me wouldn’t have broken it down so quickly and easily.

Comment #81: Mezosub  on  10/13  at  09:04 PM

“or she’s allowed to undergo a risky medical procedure to avoid the former.”

...abortion is one of the safer surgical procedures one can have.  Yes, there are risks, same as any other surgery, but “risky” isn’t really any appropriate term for it.

Comment #82: preying mantis  on  10/13  at  09:20 PM

...abortion is one of the safer surgical procedures one can have. 

Notoriously, it is now safer than giving birth.

Comment #83: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/13  at  09:29 PM

...abortion is one of the safer surgical procedures one can have.  Yes, there are risks, same as any other surgery, but “risky” isn’t really any appropriate term for it.

Especially since a first-trimester abortion is safer than carrying the pregnancy through to term.

Comment #84: rivki  on  10/13  at  09:29 PM

This is going to be long but I think it will pay off if you read it.

I love graduate programs in management. Take a prioritized to-do list and put a shiny name on it and you’ve invented management science. All right, grad student, let’s play a game. You are the Hypothesis County District Attorney. Congratulations on your election.

Your DA’s office gets 100 cases this year. To make the example simpler, let’s just say that 20 of those are murders, 30 of those are car thefts, and 50 are instances of vandalism.

You have 5,000 prosecutor hours to spend. Red herring or not, this is how many prosecutor hours you have. There is no more money in the budget.

A murder case takes a mean of 200 prosecutor hours to investigate and take to trial. Car thefts take 50 hours. Vandalism takes 10 hours.

If you were to prosecute everything, you would need (20*200 + 30*50 + 50*10) = 6000 prosecutor hours. Oops - but no worries, we have someone trained in Strategic Management! We need to find 1000 hours worth of prosecutor time to not spend. Well, easy enough - first we prosecute all the murderers, then we prosecute 20 of the car thefts, and the last 10 car thefts and all the vandalism cases will walk.

A brilliant success of management. Except…through past history and common sense, we know that not all prosecutions will be successful. Further, we know that a skilled and graduate-educated genius DA such as yourself is pretty good at gauging the chances of success. Murder cases are the ones you clear the best - fully 90% of murder trials end in conviction. Other crimes which attract less attention have a lower clearance rate - say, 67%.

So let’s look at your approach again. You pursued every single major crime that came in - no Ken Buck you! - admittedly, spending 80% of your budget on the one category, but it is the most serious category so who’s going to fault you. And you got your 20 murderers!

Well, you got 18 murderers, actually. 2 guys walked, because you had a bad case. Those two cases, all by themselves, cost you 400 prosecutor hours of time. Of the 30 car thieves you prosecuted, you got 20 of them, but 10 were acquitted because of the weak case against them - so there’s another 500 prosecutor hours spent on nothing. All the vandals walked, so Hypothetical County is pretty much awash in emblazoned legends about what a stud Frank is.

Final score: 100% of budget used, 18 murder convictions, 20 car theft convictions.

Over in Counterhypothetical County, however, DA Alkaloid is on the job. Since we’re really just an antimatter copy of your county, we have all the same crimes, budgets, and percentages. Having read about a great management technique on a political blog, I adapt the prioritization model as well. But seeing how you guys spent 900 prosecutor hours trying to convince a jury that a guy with seven alibis was really three towns over practicing impromptu surgery, I decide to add another layer.

Instead of prosecuting EVERY crime in the first category, then going down, instead we will prosecute every crime in the first category *that we think we can win*. Then we do the same thing to the second category, and then to the third. If there are resources left over, we go back to the top category and start taking on the hopeless cases, then the hopeless car thefts, etc. Clear?

How does this work out? Well, we only prosecute the 18 murderers we’re sure of a conviction on. So that spends 3600 of our hours. Then we prosecute the 20 car thieves we’re sure about. That’s another 1000 hours. Prosecuting the 33 vandals we’re sure of will take another 330 hours. That leaves me with 70 hours; we either do a Hail Mary half-ass job on one of our sketchy murders, or a full job on one of our car thefts.

Final score: 100% of budget used, 18 murders convicted, 20 car thieves convicted, 33 vandals convicted - plus maybe another murderer or car thief if we get lucky.

Hmm. Call me crazy, but it seems to me like taking the likely successful use of our resources into consideration produced a significantly superior result.

Comment #85: Alkaloid  on  10/13  at  09:37 PM

I dated a prosecutor once, and I remember this one case she tried. The guy spent a couple of hours at the 18-year-old victim’s house, hung with her brothers, etc. She had just met him and thought he was nice. Then he got her alone and raped her.

The case had all kinds of problems, but my girlfriend didn’t talk about resources, and she didn’t persuade the victim not to prosecute. She did her job, which is to stand with the victim and ensure the bastard gets what’s coming to him. (IIRC, he pled out to something like second-degree sexual assault and did six months.)

If this Buck thinks he’s so goddamn wonderful that he deserves to be a U.S. senator, he shouldn’t have pupped out in the face of a challenge.

Comment #86: Bitter Scribe  on  10/13  at  09:49 PM

Hi, conrad.  Welcome to hell.

Comment #87: oldfeminist  on  10/13  at  09:57 PM

</blockquote>IIRC, he pled out to something like second-degree sexual assault and did six months</blockquote>

This is where Bitterscribe’s description of the real world shows what a jerkwad Buck is. Sure it matters what a jury would think. But it matters a whole lot more what a defendant and a defendant’s lawyer would think about the risk. Prosecutors file cases they probably couldn’t win all the time. Then they plead the defendant down to something that matches the expected value of conviction probability x maximum sentence. When you have a defendant who has already stipulated to the act, the only question should be what level of criminal behavior they’re going to plead to.

Comment #88: paul  on  10/13  at  10:17 PM

@Alkaloid

Hmm. Call me crazy, but it seems to me like taking the likely successful use of our resources into consideration produced a significantly superior result.

Arguably, in the case of rape, that “significantly superior result” is contributing to rape culture. 

I followed your early link to the “pretty good overview” and wonder why you think that source is better than the one Amanda linked that included the transcript of Buck’s words to the victim. 

Buck’s tenure as DA, in fact, saw improvement in how the office handled sexual assault cases.[...]
I think we should oppose Buck because his political positions are bad, but this type of story doesn’t end up boosting our credibility.

The article that Amanda linked has statements from the coordinator of the Assault Survivors’ Advocacy Program in Greeley, which say that those improvements came after this case, and (I would assume) after the victim organized protests over his behavior in this case.

Comment #89: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/13  at  10:49 PM

Hmm. Call me crazy, but it seems to me like taking the likely successful use of our resources into consideration produced a significantly superior result.

But by that logic no prosecutor would ever prosecute any rape cases except for those mythical really well documents guy jumped out of a shrub and raped a virgin cases. Because as a society we tend to treat rape in the abstract as bad but assume that any woman who actually comes forward is just lying/was asking for it/regrets her decision to have sex. Rapists know that they have a very low probability of being prosecuted, which emboldens them.  Rape victims know that they are unlikely to be taken seriously and so they don’t come forward. Which leads to a society where sexual violence against women is common and, quite frankly, condoned. So yeah, I’m not particularly anxious for Prosecutors to accept the conventional wisdom that rape cases are hard and expend their resources elsewhere - that just makes the problem worse.  Prosecutors should be prosecuting criminals. Maybe if they did there’d be less rape.

Comment #90: rivki  on  10/13  at  10:54 PM

“was it safe for him?”

Quick question: Why is it always assumed that aborted embryos/fetuses are male?  That picture isn’t really good enough or from the appropriate angle to tell the sex—why jump to the conclusion that it would have been a boy?

Comment #91: preying mantis  on  10/13  at  11:10 PM

From the standpoint of having a fair criminal trial, sex crimes can be really troublesome because of the sheer level of emotion involved. The concept of innocent till proven guilty is really important and if the prosecutor does not meet her burden than the jury should find the defendant not guilty. Yet many people believe that there is a sort of guilty by default when the crime is a sex crime and take any not guilty finding as a aggravation against all that is good.

Comment #92: Lee  on  10/13  at  11:11 PM

“The case had all kinds of problems, but my girlfriend didn’t talk about resources, and she didn’t persuade the victim not to prosecute. She did her job, which is to stand with the victim and ensure the bastard gets what’s coming to him. (IIRC, he pled out to something like second-degree sexual assault and did six months.)”—Comment #86: Bitter Scribe

The job of a prosecutor isn’t to ensure anyone gets anything, but to ensure a fair trial on the behalf of the state.  Standing with the victim isn’t part of the job, it’s to stand by the law.

Your reading of a prosecutor’s job is not one that I want to have part of our justice system.  We have a system where lawbreaking is meant to be punished in a fair system that strives to ensure the rights of the accused, not a system where the guilt of the accused is assumed.  I hate our system for ignoring the obvious too many times, but like democracy, it’s only the worst possible system until it’s compared to all the others.

Comment #93: 3letterjon  on  10/13  at  11:23 PM

Cleanup on Aisle 92…

Comment #94: BrianX  on  10/13  at  11:30 PM

From the standpoint of having a fair criminal trial, sex crimes can be really troublesome because of the sheer level of emotion involved. The concept of innocent till proven guilty is really important and if the prosecutor does not meet her burden than the jury should find the defendant not guilty. Yet many people believe that there is a sort of guilty by default when the crime is a sex crime and take any not guilty finding as a aggravation against all that is good.

And murder doesn’t raise strong emotions?  I don’t understand your point at all. But it sounds like you’re saying that people (and thus juries) lower the burden of proof on sex crimes and thus convict innocent people, and that’s just ridiculous.

Comment #95: rivki  on  10/13  at  11:30 PM

why jump to the conclusion that it would have been a boy?

Because only males matter.  Duh.

Comment #96: keshmeshi  on  10/13  at  11:36 PM

If this Buck thinks he’s so goddamn wonderful that he deserves to be a U.S. senator, he shouldn’t have pupped out in the face of a challenge.

No shit.  What happened to it being a good thing to not be a wimp?

Comment #97: keshmeshi  on  10/13  at  11:39 PM

I believe that picture is of a surgically aborted fetus as opposed to a naturally occurring loss of pregnancy about as much as I believe or lil’ troll has two brain cells to rub together.

Comment #98: TheRealistMom  on  10/13  at  11:41 PM

rivki, murder does but there seems to be less aggravation in society in general when somebody accused of murder is found not guilty. Most of the aggravation is with the deceased’s family and friends. When a person accused of rape is found not guilty, the sense of aggravation and betrayal seems more generalized and wider spread. People seem to be able to approach murder with a greater since of dispassion as a society.

Comment #99: Lee  on  10/13  at  11:42 PM

conrad:

I’ve said this to others before, and I’ll say it to you too: I know all the pro-life arguments, because I used to believe them. I was pretty devout for the first 20 or so years of my life and my 16 year old CCD-teaching self would likely be appalled with the extent I’ve become pro-choice. And you know what? None of the arguments in question have a reasonable scientific or moral basis if you accept women as fully autonomous human beings rather than an Other. Now that’s some uncomfortable truth for you.

Comment #100: BrianX  on  10/13  at  11:44 PM

Lee, I think that rape has an extremely low conviction rate, but I am having a hard time googling the rates in the US (although it is about 6% in the UK). I think the problem with rape prosecutions is more that it is hard to establish a case beyond a reasonable doubt, being that it is usually he-said/she-said situations, etc.

A lot of the societal aggravation, as you say, has to do with “rape culture.” A lot of people, like our good friend conrad deny that rape even happens. And even more people think that there are several situations where a woman is slutty seeming and thus free for the raping. Murder is fairly uncontroversial.

Comment #101: alysia  on  10/13  at  11:52 PM

When a person accused of rape is found not guilty, the sense of aggravation and betrayal seems more generalized and wider spread.

That’s not an actual point though - at least not in relation to the post. You’re reporting your perception of public outcry after a trial ends in an acquittal. But you’re not indicating what that is supposed to mean.

And I think you’ll find that the sense of aggravation and betrayal is really only amongst feminists who know that rape is an underprosecuted crime and that lots of rapists are just going along their merry way raping as they chose with no fear of repercussions. Which is just not true with murderers. There’s no sense that officials/juries condone and ignore murder the way they condone and ignore rape.

Comment #102: rivki  on  10/13  at  11:57 PM

Quick question: Why is it always assumed that aborted embryos/fetuses are male? 

It’s not that conrad assumes the fetus is male, it’s just that the default human being is male.  Female are, you know, a minority.

Sheesh - so touchy.

Comment #103: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/14  at  12:27 AM

@A,AF - There was no outcry over this case until just recently. So no, Buck did not put them into place afterwards as some kind of cover. It was just one of the things he did when he was the DA. It may have been after this particular case, but I don’t know.

I am in agreement that rape culture is a problem. Perhaps spending resources imperfectly and doing less justice to rape victims in toto, but also less identifiable-to-individuals INjustices, is the way we should go. Is it better to say “yes” to every appeal for justice, with the result that many attempts at justice fail? Maybe so.

Comment #104: Alkaloid  on  10/14  at  12:29 AM

Perhaps spending resources imperfectly and doing less justice to rape victims in toto, but also less identifiable-to-individuals INjustices, is the way we should go. Is it better to say “yes” to every appeal for justice, with the result that many attempts at justice fail? Maybe so.

I have no idea what you’re saying. I feel like it’s probably offensive, but I can’t be certain until you clarify. Because that statement reads as: we should prosecute fewer rapists so we can privilege the prosecution of other crimes over rape because prosecuting rape is hard and besides most accused rapists are innocent so prosecuting them would be an injustice.

Comment #105: rivki  on  10/14  at  12:33 AM

@Alkaloid

According to the other article, there was a protest at the time. 

This victim, though, has worked as a rape victims’ advocate, and she refused to let the matter drop. When her meeting with Buck got her nowhere, she organized a protest rally at the DA’s office. She spoke with the media. Buck was forced to respond.

He said the facts in the case didn’t warrant prosecution. “A jury could very well conclude that this is a case of buyer’s remorse,” he told the Greeley Tribune in March 2006. He went on to publicly call the facts in the case “pitiful.”

Here is the coverage from 2006 that was linked to in the piece that Amanda linked to.

And, again, from the article:

A rape victims’ advocate in Greeley told the Independent that this case seemed to be a turning point for Buck. The Weld County DA’s office “learned a lesson from that case,” Deana Davies said. Davies is coordinator of the Assault Survivors’ Advocacy Program in Greeley.

“He (Buck) came to us after that case and said, ‘We need to do things differently in the future. How do we do this better?’”

“The way he handled that victim was unfortunate, but he did learn from that experience.” Davies said that shortly after this case, Buck helped start the SART Program (Sexual Assault Review Team), which includes law officers, victim advocates and others who review cases that may fall into gray areas or look difficult to prosecute.

Now, did the tiny protest and coverage in 2006 make a difference?  I don’t really know.  I hardly think it is unlikely however.

Comment #106: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/14  at  01:54 AM

Sorry, missed that A,AF, thanks for the info.

@Rivki, I am saying that if women will feel better having more rapes prosecuted, even when prosecutors don’t think they will win, then maybe that net outcome would be a better outcome. It is easy in employing economic thinking to forget that while tradeoffs are inevitable, what values people place on which outcomes varies, and so a tradeoff that I would think illogical might well seem purely rational to you, and vice versa.

Comment #107: Alkaloid  on  10/14  at  02:05 AM

One thing that motivated Buck into dropping the prosecution may have been the thought, “There, but for the grace of God, go I.” We need female (or other) DAs who can relate to the victim more than to the accused.

And I would add “establishing consent” to the lifelong sex ed curriculum.

Comment #108: Hector B.  on  10/14  at  02:05 AM

You know, usually trolls are just plain annoying (like this same one at #92), but every now and then you get a comment like #87, worth its offensive weight in gold because of the perfection of how it removes all doubt that the controversial point the thread poster originally was trying to argue is appallingly dead-on.

Don’t trouble your head agonizing over whether the anti-choice people might not be misogynist in their hearts, says Amanda. Their insane troll logic only shows its rationality when seen from that angle. Immediately someone starts in with a “what if they are consistent after all…” thing. To bury it and not to praise it to be sure, a modest Modest Proposal. Well and good, but here we are arguing back and forth. And along comes conrad to tell us quite starkly and succinctly (much more direct than I can be, obviously) that no, he really doesn’t have any empathy or understanding for what untold millions of American women have suffered through (and essentially all of them live under the threat of). Nope, he thinks it’s a fairy tale like the Easter Bunny. Or since he thinks it’s an evil tale, more like Bloody Mary or some such urban legend.

That’s the kind of consistency Amanda was talking about.

Good troll. Usefully evil, that’s what you are! Consider this response your treat.

Comment #109: Mark Foxwell  on  10/14  at  02:08 AM

@Hector B.

It probably wouldn’t have helped in this case.

From the transcript of Buck’s talks with the victim, it is clear that this particular case was a classic She Said, He Said.  She said that she was unconsenting, but didn’t remember if she actually said “No,” he said that she definitely said “No.”

It was clearly entirely reasonable of Buck to believe half of her story (didn’t say it out loud), but not the other (didn’t consent).  To be fair, he was also probably only believing half of the rapist’s (shouldn’t go to jail), while disbelieving the other (she said no).

Comment #110: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/14  at  02:17 AM

I really hate this “he said, she said” framing.

One guy punches another in the face.  Case goes to trial.  Puncher says “he was trying to attack me.”  Punchee says “he just cold cocked me.”

We try cases like this all the fucking time.  Not only that, but in cases like this, the aggressor is a felon, so no matter what, there is one felon.  In the case of sexual assault, if the sex was consensual, the alleged victim committed no crime.  So the alleged victim in a sexual assault case has *less* incentive to lie than either the alleged victim or alleged perpetrator in a simple assault case, because s/he can’t be found liable for a felony.

Comment #111: Ismone  on  10/14  at  03:47 AM

I am saying that if women will feel better having more rapes prosecuted

Aww, thanks for thinking about our feefees. It’s not about us wanting men not to rape us, we just want our feeling to be catered for. But don’t send flowers, I’m allergic.

Comment #112: colorlessblue  on  10/14  at  06:51 AM

And I’d love to go live in Lee’s world where there’s generalized outrage at the thought of a rapist getting away with his crime, but I don’t to drugs, so I have to face the reality I inhabit, where people are proud of defining themselves as comfort the convicted rapist (but hey, if she didn’t want to be raped she shouldn’t have been born a female child in his family, it’s her fault, he needed a show of support.)

Comment #113: colorlessblue  on  10/14  at  07:39 AM

Alysia at 104, point taken. Rape historically has been a crime that was difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt. Technology is giving prosecutors a bit more evidence but a lot of it he said/she said testimony and a skilled defense lawyer can get the jury to acquit the accused by using some psychological manipulation based on social prejudices. This gives it a lower than other crime conviction rates. The fact that a defense lawyer can manipulate the jury by using social prejudices (i.e. she wanted it because she was dressed provocatively or other nonsense) is another thing leads to the greater aggravation.

  There have been changes to the evidentiary rules in rape cases, although these are still controversial among lawyers even though the changes happened a long time ago. Since rape trials usually involved a lot of he said/she said testimony, so a common defense tactic was to bring up the women’s sexual past in order to depict her as sexual promiscuous so the jury would think that the sex was consensual and acquit. Most states have passed rape shield laws, which basically stop this except in some rare circumstances. They have also passed rape sword laws, where any past sexual misconduct of the accused can be use against him. Many lawyers think the rape shield and rape sword laws are not fair because they take away a very important weapon that the accused had against the state in a rape/sex crime trial and gives the state a too potent weapon against the accused. Since the presumption is for innocence, some feel that the accused should have every tool available to get a not guilty verdict even if the tool is a bit underhanded.

  My point is basically that in sex crime trials, it is very hard to balance the rights of the victim and the accused when compared to other criminal trials, even that of murder for various reasons. This doesn’t mean that rape should not be prosecuted, it should be but the rights of the accused are an important part of the criminal justice system and there shouldn’t be a sense of betrayal when a person accused of rape is found not guilty.

Comment #114: Lee  on  10/14  at  08:00 AM

“I believe that picture is of a surgically aborted fetus as opposed to a naturally occurring loss of pregnancy about as much as I believe or lil’ troll has two brain cells to rub together.”

It’s quite possibly of an aborted fetus, but if it is, given the actual history of most of the anti-choice nuts’ shock-photos, it’s probably a fetus aborted due to abnormality or maternal medical problems.

“It’s not that conrad assumes the fetus is male, it’s just that the default human being is male.”

Seriously, I’ve seen a grand total of one—one—anti-choice nutjob rant in which the fetus was imagined to be female.  And that was from a female anti-choice nutjob.  The rest of them all seem hip-deep in richly-imagined fantasies about these perfect sons who would have been born but for that bitch/the Jews/insert boogeyman here.  Given the fact that most abortions occur prior to the ability to determine sex without performing a chromosome test on the products of conception, it seems kind of telling that a roughly 50-50 chance comes up male every time in their world.

Comment #115: preying mantis  on  10/14  at  08:15 AM

Ginmar, I suspect you are thinking of the case I was thinking of when I wrote that “The state has more recently tried to prevent minors in state care from travelling,” the Miss D case. In this 2007 case, a 17 year old who was pregnant with a foetus that had anencephaly (no head, and thus no chance of independent survival outside the womb) was a ward of the state, and the Health Service Executive tried to prevent her travelling to the UK for an abortion, to the extent of contacting the passport office, and threatening her that she would be physically restrained by the Guards if she tried to travel. The High Court ruled that the HSE hadn’t a legal leg to stand on, and that Miss D was free to travel. She subsequently did so and had the abortion.

I have not seen a reference suggesting that the pregnancy was the result of rape, but a supportive boyfriend is mentioned in a couple of articles. Crucially in this case, Miss D did not try to make the case that she herself was at risk either mentally or physically from the pregnancy (though she clearly was, and for no possible positive outcome), but took the case to court purely on the issue of freedom to travel.

It’s also worth noting that abortion is not available in Northern Ireland except for medical reasons (a lot more than in Ireland, and including the health of the mother), so women there are unable to obtain an elective abortion on the NHS, and are thus disadvantaged compared to other UK women.

Comment #116: Nineveh  on  10/14  at  09:05 AM

there shouldn’t be a sense of betrayal when a person accused of rape is found not guilty.

The day the Justice system does its best and the accused gets acquitted in a fair trial, I’ll take that in a stoic manner, if I think the verdict was wrong. Till then, when prosecuters refuse to act on a case where even the rapist admits it was rape, like this Buck guy, like this case where one of the rapists confirms the victim’s statements, and it’s well known that police departments will downplay rape, convince victims not to charge, charge as different, less serious kinds of crimes, to make crime statistics look good, or start off with the certainty that the drunken bitch is lying, and says so openly, you don’t tell me how to feel.

Comment #117: colorlessblue  on  10/14  at  09:56 AM

Might it make sense that a large part of the sense of betrayal comes not only from prosecutors’ unwillingness to take on rape cases but some juries’ unwillingness to convict. See, for example, Haidl I.

Comment #118: paul  on  10/14  at  11:33 AM

Taking someone to trial for rape even if the prosecution predicts he’s not going to be found guilty has a function—does anyone think that being accused of rape is a walk in the park? 

Not to mention that prosecutors aren’t perfect at predicting what cases will be winners and what will be losers.  Juries, judges, evidence, prosecutors, defense attorneys, what was on the news or Law&Order;the previous week, all can have an effect.

Comment #119: oldfeminist  on  10/14  at  01:39 PM

Lee, that was a truly awesome Mansplain.  Thanks!

Comment #120: Katherine  on  10/14  at  02:48 PM

#118 preying mantis,
I think a majority of the pics are either of miscarriages, health/death reason and still borns, especially when you look (though I’m not a doctor) at the decomposition of the skin. I say this because they ususally use later term abortions and overwhelmingly and in all third trimester cases it’s for a health or death reason or a miscarriage or stillborn. They often dont show pics of a zygote because it’s not as reflective of what a person looks like. I would love to see the actual cases behind these pics and where the hell they got them from. In some cases it looks like old pics or from foreign countries. Perhaps pro-choice people should have pics of women in death poses from back-alley abortions to counter their BS fetus photos?

Comment #121: BeanS  on  10/14  at  03:45 PM

So the alleged victim in a sexual assault case has *less* incentive to lie than either the alleged victim or alleged perpetrator in a simple assault case, because s/he can’t be found liable for a felony.

Ismone fails to realize, as Buck did, that all women are evil, making false accusations of rape purely out of vengeful spite.

Comment #122: Hector B.  on  10/14  at  03:48 PM

“I would love to see the actual cases behind these pics and where the hell they got them from.”

Yes, but then everyone would be able to tell that anti-choicers are full of shit.

Comment #123: preying mantis  on  10/14  at  04:10 PM

One source in regards to the anti-choice images and veracity <a >The Truth About the Anti Abortion Photos</a>. Certainly not all-inclusive, but gives an idea about some of the deceptions. (Disturbing image warnings, and pdf file)

Comment #124: TheRealistMom  on  10/14  at  04:49 PM

The job of a prosecutor isn’t to ensure anyone gets anything, but to ensure a fair trial on the behalf of the state.

No, that’s the judge’s job. The prosecutor’s job, once convinced of a defendant’s guilt, is to convict him or her.

Of course, the prosecutor has to be objective and as accurate as possible in deciding whom to prosecute, and must be willing to change his or her mind if necessary. But they represent the victim and the citizens of their jurisdiction. They’re not impartial referees.

Comment #125: Bitter Scribe  on  10/14  at  06:19 PM

Lee, that’s TOTALLY true——if you think women’s default option is always lying about rape.

Comment #126: ginmar  on  10/14  at  06:29 PM

‘Rape’ is one of the biggest, overblown, lies that feminazis tell. And abortion is the fruit of their works.

congrats.

You know, I don’t know you from Adam, and while I can’t say with certainty that you are a rapist, I have great difficulty imagining a non-rapist ever writing or saying such a disgustingly offensive post as what you wrote there.

So congrats to you, too.

In fewer than two dozen words, you have demonstrated what a massive pile of shit you truly are. Now please do your fellow human beings a favor and commit suicide. Seriously, too much oxygen is wasted on despicable organisms like you.

Comment #127: DTGslu2K  on  10/14  at  06:47 PM

I always found the “promiscuous women are more likely to lie about rape” assumption mindboggling.

If she really fucked 21 other guys, and didn’t accuse them of rape, but said “guy 22 raped me” well, why would she do that?  22 is just too high of a number? 

And yeah, the assumption that a victim of a crime would lie, but that a perpetrator wouldn’t lie and try to make it sound like normal sex is a troubling one.  People lie for reasons/have motives, or, they’re pathological liars.  Juries engage in credibility determinations all the time—in assault cases, in contract cases, etc., etc.  But it is only when there is an alleged rapist in the equation that we get all in a tizzy about the possibility that the victim is lying.  Guess what—unless they are murder victims, alleged victims can always lie.  And considering the way that rape victims are treated by our culture, and the fact that fornication is not a crime any more, rape victims have less motivation to lie than victims/parties in just about any other case.

Comment #128: Ismone  on  10/14  at  07:50 PM

For what it’s worth, I went on a tour of an abortion clinic that I defended from violent anti-choicers.  The tour guide suggested that we look inside the medical waste box that contained all the dead fetuses from the week so that we knew exactly what we were defending.  The box was probably 12x12 inches and contained the remnants of about 40 abortions up until that point, according to the guide.  It basically looked like someone had a bloody nose and exhaled it into the box.  Just a bunch of stringy blood and the occasional bloody blob covering the sides of the box, nothing even slightly identifiable as a fetus.  I mean, I’m not saying that I didn’t feel sad holding the box, but I only felt sad because I was told it contained dead fetuses and uterus materials.  If I hadn’t been told, I would have just thought it was bloody snot.  I was mostly surprised by the lack of blood.  I had expected it to contain a pool of blood, but nope.  (And yeah, I’m also not saying it wasn’t disgusting, but the guide had a point.  I dealt with a lot of violence that week and I stuck with it because I knew with 100% certainty that they had no idea what they were talking about.)

Frankly, I think men can’t handle abortion because they don’t get periods.  I wouldn’t be surprised if my Divacup held a spontaneously aborted embryo or two in my life that ended up flushed down the toilet with absolutely no effect on my day, let alone my life.

Comment #129: stubbles  on  10/14  at  07:58 PM

They have also passed rape sword laws, where any past sexual misconduct of the accused can be use against him.

Lee, I can’t let this one pass.  Not only am I a lawyer, I also have the Gazoogle, which at my computer never heard of “rape sword.”  Wrong: past sexual misconduct of the accused generally CANNOT “be use” against him—whereas the rape shield laws have exceptions.

Also, you need to read the comments above before blithely assuming that rape complainants lie.

Comment #130: Unree  on  10/14  at  08:18 PM

Ismone fails to realize, as Buck did, that all women are evil, making false accusations of rape purely out of vengeful spite.

You know it! Take, for example, this absolutely legit real life conversation:

My friend: Hey, y’all, TGIF! Whatcha gonna do this weekend, Bagelsan?

Me: Oh, well apparently that one restaurant I wanted to try is closed Saturdays, which makes me super sad and vengeful, so I thought I’d go accuse some dudes of rape to feel better. ^^

My friend: Sweet! Nothing is fun-ner than spiteful false rape accusations!

Both: ...except for getting abortions, of course! LOL

Me: True story!

*we high five*

(We probably shopped for shoes after that. Who knows? We ladies is crazy!)

smile

Comment #131: Bagelsan  on  10/14  at  08:52 PM

I always found the “promiscuous women are more likely to lie about rape” assumption mindboggling.

If she really fucked 21 other guys, and didn’t accuse them of rape, but said “guy 22 raped me” well, why would she do that?  22 is just too high of a number?

If your perception of women is that they are human beings with brains to think with, then it would be mindboggling.  After all, that only proves that she knows she’s capable of consent, and knows when she doesn’t give it, it’s rape.

If your perception of women is such that she’s a used tissue once she’s had sex (thanks, abstinence only education!), then it doesn’t matter how you use that vaginal object.  Consent doesn’t matter because it’s all up to the guy, and he said yes.  Case closed!

Comment #132: SporkeyO  on  10/14  at  09:23 PM

@stubbles

I mean, I’m not saying that I didn’t feel sad holding the box, but I only felt sad because I was told it contained dead fetuses and uterus materials.  If I hadn’t been told, I would have just thought it was bloody snot.

Great comment.

I think if I found myself holding a box of that much bloody snot, I’d be sad anyway.  Bodies can be pretty disgusting, but of course women’s bodies are just moreso.  Vaginas are gross, menstruation is gross, abortions are gross, pregnant women (and all of pregnancy that isn’t the “glow” and a tummy to pat) are gross….  I just wish that it felt more like we as a society were making progress to get over/set aside how gross things are (which varies person to person anyway) to actually talk about them honestly and publicly.  It’s not surprising that most of the progress we have made culturally (disease, death, sex, etc.) is limited to things that involve men.

Comment #133: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/14  at  10:18 PM

And the troll proves my point.  I love it when that happens.

Comment #134: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/14  at  11:17 PM

137: Good point. I don’t think anyone’s gonna convince me that menstruation, for example, is not slightly gross (I’m not a big fan of bodily fluids being outside the body in general?) but like an adult I’m over it. Like, once you’ve been post-pubescent for a decade or so the “icky!” has to turn into “okay…still icky but mostly kind of boring” at some point right? So how in the world do you get people who, instead of sort of sighing and moving on with their disappointingly-grossly-corporeal lives, say “OMG fuck this, I’m turning my ‘icky!’ reaction into goddamn legal policy!”?

Did they never have anyone tell them to grow the hell up? Like our stick-ish troll, even—posting “icky” pictures as if they meant something? I didn’t know that picking your nose and showing it to people was a debate tactic that lingered much past age 5…

Comment #135: Bagelsan  on  10/14  at  11:51 PM

@Bagelsan

Speaking of five-year-olds, the “you like abortion so much, have a picture” form of “argument,” always reminds me of that question that would invariably come up at lunch in elementary school:

“Do you like see-food?”

Comment #136: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/14  at  11:55 PM

Lee, I can’t let this one pass.  Not only am I a lawyer, I also have the Gazoogle, which at my computer never heard of “rape sword.”

You use it to fight the dickwolves.

Comment #137: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/15  at  12:10 AM

I don’t know, guys, if a conservative that really genuinely believes a blastocyst is a person would necessarily care whether or not that “person” got enough folic acid in utero.
Comment 57—purpleshoes

It is and should be illegal to prevent your already-born child from getting adequate nutrition (I suspect it’s illegal to keep anyone from getting adequate nutrition, but the issue rarely comes up for independent adults). So believing a fetus is a person entails believing it’s possible to malnourish one—and condemning those who do so.

I don’t intend to engage with Conrad, but I do wonder what anti-choicers believe we think abortion is.

Rape historically has been a crime that was difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt
Comment 117—Lee

The sorts of doubt seen as reaonable in a rape case are seen as unreasonable in cases of other crimes.

Comment #138: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/15  at  02:08 AM

@Hershele Ostropoler

I don’t intend to engage with Conrad, but I do wonder what anti-choicers believe we think abortion is.

You mean it isn’t this, but with zygotes and embryos?

Damn Feminism, lying to me all these years.

Comment #139: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/15  at  02:52 AM

The sorts of doubt seen as reaonable in a rape case are seen as unreasonable in cases of other crimes.

I’d like to believe that guy took your wallet, Hershele, but those are some tight pants you’re wearing… And have you ever had a drink in your adult life? Tsk. (Sounds like a case of wallet-loser’s remorse amiright?)

Comment #140: Bagelsan  on  10/15  at  04:40 AM

You use it to fight the dickwolves.

If I fight the dickwolves, how am I supposed to get to sleep? :D

Comment #141: Bagelsan  on  10/15  at  04:41 AM

Don’t forget Bagelsan, Hershele has probably thrown away a wallet at some point in his life.  If he cared about keeping his wallet so much, he should have formed a lifelong bond with the first one.

Comment #142: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/15  at  04:43 AM

Also, I bet Hershele has had more than one wallet, so it doesn’t matter if this one was stolen.

And now I’m going to have the word “dickwolves” in my head all day.

Comment #143: SporkeyO  on  10/15  at  09:14 AM

Plus, the wallet-thief said that Hershele appeared to enjoy it when the wallet was taken, so it wasn’t really stolen.

Comment #144: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/15  at  09:16 AM

Plus, the wallet-thief said that Hershele appeared to enjoy it when the wallet was taken, so it wasn’t really stolen.

I’m terrible with sources this week, but I remember reading somewhere that, if you’re talking about money, it’s a crime if someone violently beats you up to steal your wallet, it’s a crime if they just threaten violence to steal your wallet, it’s a crime if they pick your pocket without letting you notice, it’s a crime if they enter your house, breaking or not, to get to your wallet, it’s a crime even if they use false premises to get you to sign the check yourself, smiling all along, during lunch at the country club. But if you’re talking about rape it’s only a crime if you demonstrably never touched a coin your whole life *and* demonstrably barely survived the experience *and* we like you.

Comment #145: colorlessblue  on  10/15  at  10:07 AM

And did Hershele ever give a wallet to anyone? Wallet-slut!

Comment #146: Katherine  on  10/15  at  10:10 AM

Wow, Hershele, it is not sounding good for you! Loooot of reasonable doubt going on about this alleged “wallet theft”... and geez, if you went ahead and tried to prosecute who knows what kind of wallet-related depravity we could dig up in your past?

Comment #147: Bagelsan  on  10/15  at  03:35 PM

@colorlessblue:

I read in, Unwanted Sex by Stephen J Schulhofer, that property theft laws in the US used to look a lot like rape laws today.  In order to get a conviction you had to able to prove that your property was taken by force and that you defended it to a reasonable degree.  Over time, as the situations presented to the court became more complex, property theft laws evolved to cover things like extortion, fraud, situations where someone uses their status to ask for a gift, etc. etc.

But for some reason, *cough, cough*, rape laws never made that same evolution.

Comment #148: bellacoker  on  10/15  at  03:39 PM

actually, it is not the prosecutor’s job to act as the victim’s advocate. the prosecutor acts for the state, and all charges are cited as “state v defendent”, not “victim v defendent”. rape is a crime against the state, as are all other criminal acts. this is just basic law, and i’m not even a lawyer. please don’t misunderstand, clearly, i believe this crime should have been prosecuted, but mr. buck was well within his authority to choose not to, for whatever reason. what this does demonstrate, besides his blatant mysogony, is his incredibly poor judgement. reason enough for intelligent people to not vote for him.

as well, prosecutors, at every level, enjoy broad discretion on whether or not to bring charges. it is a very rare instance that any court will go over a prosecutor’s head in this matter. obviously, there are finite resources allocated to the prosecutor’s office, at every level. prosecuting every crime is just not economically feasible. nor, is there an infinite supply of prison beds available (and really, would you want there to be?), consequently, decisions must be made about what cases get prosecuted, and what cases don’t. that’s part of the job of the commonwealth’s/state’s attorney. it’s why they get paid the big bucks. it’s also why neither the legislature or judiciary is allowed (normally) to second-guess their calls.

that said, the voters have that opportunity, at election time.

Comment #149: cpinva  on  10/15  at  11:48 PM

[stuff about my allegedly stolen wallet]

Er, perhaps I should have been clearer suggesting the types of doubt juries consider reasonable in rape cases are rather broad. My point was that if jurors held rape to the same standards as theft, it wouldn’t be difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt; what Lee pointed out is a characteristic of sexist society, not of rape.

Comment #150: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/16  at  03:43 AM

I’m so glad all the big, smart menz are here to explain to our teensy li’l girlybrainz all about rape and the law.

Gawd.

Comment #151: Nobody in Particular  on  10/16  at  10:10 AM

I’m so glad all the big, smart menz are here to explain to our teensy li’l girlybrainz all about rape and the law.

Yeah, I’d never guess that, the fact that extremely crimes affecting mostly women being the ones considered lowest priority was not a result of misogyny, if they hadn’t told me.
It made me remember some article I read this week about the Women in Refrigerators trope. The guy was saying that the constant discarding of female characters with the sole purpose of providing background and motivation to a male character was not a trope about women and men, it was a trope about supporting characters and main characters. It just so happens that most main characters are men. Just a coincidence, problem solved, we can shut up now.

Comment #152: colorlessblue  on  10/16  at  12:36 PM

Maybe feminist women will need to do it themselves. It’s clear non-feminist men won’t, and feminist men are a minority. Perhaps feminists will have to shift some focus from careers like education and activism into prosecutorial roles.

Comment #153: Alkaloid  on  10/16  at  02:34 PM

I can’t bother to think of something that’s rude enough to answer that.

Comment #154: colorlessblue  on  10/16  at  07:04 PM

Alkaloid,

A lot of sex crimes prosecutors are women.  I would just like to hope, being all pro-equality and all, that men who are prosecutors would give a fuck, too.  I care about crimes against men and wrongly convicted men, because I think that men are people entitled to equal dignity and respect.  Some individual men seem to have a problem with that, i.e., making excuses for why we shouldn’t even attempt to prosecute some of the stronger cases of an underreported and underprosecuted crime because they aren’t perfect, and horrors, the prosecutor might lose.

There’s an old saying in law—if you aren’t losing any motions, you aren’t filing aggressive enough motions.  The point isn’t just to go for the sure wins—that is not advocating for your client, whether your client is the state, a corporation, or an individual. 

Everyone else,

And to clear matters up generally re: criminal law, although the caption is state vs. defendant, the prosecutor does owe a significant duty to the victim of the crime, to protect that victim and obtain justice for him or her or them.  The fact that the victim is identified with the state does not diminish the victim; instead, it shows when the victim is harmed, we all are harmed.  It is a statement of solidarity with the victim, it is not meant to act as though the injury to the state is more significant—indeed, the state is only injured because the victim is valued.

Comment #155: Ismone  on  10/16  at  07:44 PM

@150: Sorry, Hershele, I totally read it the way you meant but I was just having fun. :p That’ll teach you to make a reasonable comment on Pandagon!

Comment #156: Bagelsan  on  10/16  at  08:06 PM

“Rape historically has been a crime that was difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt.”

You know, I’m fairly certain that has more to do with rape being, historically, a property crime committed against a man and that, historically women were not able to testify and/or serve on juries.  Rather than, you know technology and shit.  But maybe that’s just me.

“Since rape trials usually involved a lot of he said/she said testimony,”

Also, you know what?  [warning, anecdata ahead!] My dad served as a juror on a rape trial once.  They guy got off.  For rape.  But not for the attempted murder that the trial was also for.  It was ALL he said/she said. Both the attempted murder and the rape.  But that only mattered when it came to the rape.

Nevermind that the rape and the attempted murder happened on the same night, in sequence.  Nevermind that how the hell to do you manage to convict someone of trying to do something, but can’t manage to convict them of the act that they managed to complete?

No.  It was he said/she said, and how do you trust a woman who invites a man inside when she’s alone at home.  Well, when it comes to rape, anyway.  Attempted murder, sure.  Why wouldn’t you trust her?  But rape? She must be lying.

(and need I remind you that my dad served on this jury.  my explanation of the jury’s reasoning is not conjecture here, it is pretty much verbatim from the jury deliberations)

Comment #157: jennygadget  on  10/17  at  02:36 AM

Bagelsan: I’ve unwittingly come off as sexist on Pandagon in the past. I’ve unwittingly been sexist on Pandagon in the past, for that matter, but I hope I’m working on that.

Comment #158: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/17  at  12:00 PM
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