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Could the economic crisis shift attitudes about child-bearing?

Confession time: I think that show “The Soup” is fucking hilarious and I’m trying to watch it regularly now.  Their reaction to the “scandal” over Jessica Simpson’s weight is worth the price of admission alone.  It’s the only place I’d ever see clips from “Jon & Kate Plus 8”, which is how I came across a clip, apparently typical, of Kate screaming at Jon because he forgot to use a coupon for some item.  At this point in time, I had the stunning realization that the octuplets mom, who is being lambasted from every corner of the planet, might be on the sane side of over-fertile. She has certainly exposed how the pro-patriarchal arguments about the glories of unemployed, fertile femininity and the embracing of human life were all 100% empty—-in the end, it’s all about having a man, and that was the difference between hero and villain.  But maybe Nadya Suleman saw “Jon & Kate” and realized that you can have a litter of small children or a happy, peaceful marriage, but you can’t have both.  (I guess the Duggars achieved it by removing Michelle Duggar’s personality and will from the equation.)

There’s no doubt in my mind that the reaction to Suleman is hostile for sexist and possibly racist reasons, because if you do think she’s off her gourd to have so many kids (especially at once), then the proper response is compassion and not anger.  But the anger aimed at her is interesting, because the official response right up until she gave birth to 8 babies while unmarried is to treat ridiculous levels with fecundity with open arms, and never, ever to question our culture’s preference for child-bearing over not.  I don’t think the sea is changing on that because of Suleman—-if she was married, the question of sanity would never come up in polite company—-but there’s a few indicators that this economic crisis, amongst other things, might be causing Americans to rethink their opinions. But maybe we’re going to see the decision not to have a child (or have a child right now) start to gain equality with the decision to have a child.  With the caveat that some groups of women’s child-bearing has always been considered suspect depending on their age, race, or socioeconomic status. 

This week on Reality Cast, I interview the policy director of the National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association about the family planning item for Medicaid that got struck from the economic stimulus package, and it’s an illuminating interview.  The way the issue got distorted in the mainstream media coverage was shameful, and she sets the record straight.  But one thing that I thought was kind of interesting, and goes a long way to explaining so much of the knee-jerk hostility to the bill, is that all it would do is, pragmatically speaking, put the choice not to have a child on an equal playing field with the choice to have a child, which was preferred before.  Though not necessarily by design.  It’s more that lawmakers’ prejudices plus the immediacy of child-bearing induced them to expand Medicaid access for prenatal and childbirth care, while not giving a similar expansion to access to contraceptive care.  This bill would have changed that, making the choices equal from the Medicaid funding perspective.  What Sloane Rosenthal said during the interview that really floored me was that 9 out of 10 voters approves making these two choices equal from a funding perspective.  I think one thing that was driving the pearl-clutching media coverage over this was the assumption that it’s taboo to say that not having a baby was an equally valid choice to having a baby—-the tradition has been to favor child-bearing over not for so long that it was hard for many pundits to realize public opinion is shifting on this.  (To make it even more confusing, the taboo generally shifts depending on whether or not the choice-maker in question already has children or will in the future, but that sort of nuance has been completely scrubbed from the discourse around this issue in mainstream media outlets.)


Obviously, it’s a complicated issue, and I haven’t fully wrapped my head around it, in part because I think we’re midst paradigm shift.  But this past week I saw not one, but two mainstream media articles talking about something that’s hugely controversial and is usually avoided for that reason, which is the idea that, for some people, having kids is just a bad idea.  Now, I’m not talking about the usual groups of people targeted for the no-kids discourse—-teenage girls, women of color, poor women, single women, and drug addicts.  I mean, there’s some movements towards suggesting that some people who have been in the past all but required to procreate are seeing doubts raised and downsides explicated. 

The first comes from, believe it or not, Parenting magazine. I saw it at Broadsheet, and it caused a great deal of angst, being mentioned in other posts and causing 151 comments.  Parenting did a survey and found that child-bearing causes a lot of marital strife.

According to Parenting’s nationally representative survey of more than 1,000 mothers on MomConnection, an online panel of moms, the majority of us confess to feeling anger at surprising levels. We love our husbands—but we’re mad that we spend more mental energy on the details of parenting. We’re mad that having children has turned our lives upside down much more than theirs. We’re mad that these guys, who can manage businesses or keep track of thousands of pieces of sports trivia, can be clueless when it comes to what our kids are eating and what supplies they need for school. And more than anything else, we’re mad that they get more time to themselves than we do.

It doesn’t surprise this feminist to learn that men decide to embrace male privilege with gusto once children come onto the scene and there’s a lot more work to be done, work that is just easier to foist onto your wife.  But talking about the downside of having kids, at least for middle class couples, is still wildly taboo and you can see it all over this article, which is weighed down with lots of comforting language about how they really love their husbands even though they’re getting the shaft from them, they really do!  And Abigail at Broadsheet squirmed with discomfort over this discussion about what a bummer it is to try to raise kids with a man who won’t do his part.

It’s not that I can’t relate to the moms’ agitation, but there’s something about this story, and the commentary it sparked, that’s more irksome than a trail of dirty socks on the floor. Lazy husbands! Nagging wives! It all leaves a feminist mom to wonder: How are we supposed to get past outdated gender roles if we can’t let go of such petty caricatures?

That struck me as unfair—-the moms can’t get past the petty caricatures, because those caricatures are their lives now.  I’m sure many of them have “now I feel like a caricature” on their list of complaints.  But the only way to get past the petty caricatures is to become even less feminist and more submissive and simply accept that your second class status is your lot, and whistle away pretending you like it.  Or get divorced, I guess.  Or the men could pick up more the of the slack, but of course, the men in question are highly motivated not to do that.  Who works more when you don’t have to?

But raising questions about whether or not child-bearing is the right choice for every middle class couple—-or even most—-isn’t just something hinted at in the margins of Parenting magazine. Now it’s the direct subject of an op-ed in the NY Times, written by Stephanie Coontz.  What she’s reporting on has been known for a long time, but swept under the rug (I’d only read about it in one other place, the book Stumbling on Happiness) because of the big taboo against talking about these things.

Over the past two decades, however, many researchers have concluded that three’s a crowd when it comes to marital satisfaction. More than 25 separate studies have established that marital quality drops, often quite steeply, after the transition to parenthood. And forget the “empty nest” syndrome: when the children leave home, couples report an increase in marital happiness.

But there’s hope for people who don’t want child-bearing to trap them in a loveless marriage marked by endless bickering.  Alas, you have to have a ruthless willingness to examine your own motivations and communicate with hard-to-muster honesty with your partner about whether or not you’re on the same page.

Some couples plan the conception and discuss how they want to conduct their relationship after the baby is born. Others disagree about whether or when to conceive, with one partner giving in for the sake of the relationship. And sometimes, both partners are ambivalent.

The Cowans found that the average drop in marital satisfaction was almost entirely accounted for by the couples who slid into being parents, disagreed over it or were ambivalent about it. Couples who planned or equally welcomed the conception were likely to maintain or even increase their marital satisfaction after the child was born.

And this won’t surprise the surveyed women at Parenting magazine.

Marital quality also tends to decline when parents backslide into more traditional gender roles. Once a child arrives, lack of paid parental leave often leads the wife to quit her job and the husband to work more. This produces discontent on both sides. The wife resents her husband’s lack of involvement in child care and housework. The husband resents his wife’s ingratitude for the long hours he works to support the family.

It’s good for people to educate them about these issues, even though it causes massive discomfort because the more research like this gets out, the more people we’re going to see decide that, on second thought, they don’t want kids after all.  Which in turn causes all this bitterness.  But we’re in an economic crisis right now, and that’s known to be a time when people are willing to accept major societal changes.  Contraception was quietly growing in popularity before the Great Depression, but it was during the Depression that it really started to go mainstream, and abortion was semi-decriminalized for lack of enforcement.  (Of course, heavy enforcement came back during the anti-feminist backlash of the 50s.)  Perhaps articles like these are an indicator that we’re going to see a shift in official, public attitudes.  People have quietly started to practice the belief that not having children or limiting yourself to one is an equally valid choice to more traditional child-bearing practices, but now perhaps we’re going to see more acknowledgment of that in public.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:53 PM • (87) Comments

I will not have babies until I can give birth to a litter of kittens.  Just like in the picture.

Comment #1: kitten parade  on  02/09  at  02:13 PM

I had a psychology prof tell my class over 10 years ago that having children produces a decline in marital satisfaction 100% of the time.  There’s no getting around it.  He said the key is to work on having a healthy marriage before you have children.

We’ve got two kids, and our marriage has suffered in many ways from it.  There are compensations, of course.  My children are a source of great and continuing joy for me, even when my 2-year-old is acting like a 2-year-old.  At least I’m helping him to grow out of that phase, unlike what happened to a lot of the guys discussed in the threads you mentioned.

It’s funny how much praise from women I get for being a stay-at-home dad.  Well, funny and sad.  I’ve joked that the bar is set so low for stay-at-home dads that my children could be dirty and dressed in rags and I’d still be considered a saint merely for being the one to stay home.

For the record, my children aren’t very dirty, and while their clothes come from the consignment shops, they’ve still got life in them.  Really.

Comment #2: Stephen Suh  on  02/09  at  02:16 PM

Stephen, I think your point about how dads are celebrated for doing anything shows why the Broadsheet response bothered me so much.  These stereotypes live on because people enable them, and simply refusing to see what’s right in front of our noses isn’t going to make the world more feminist, but less.  Men don’t, on average, pull their weight.  (You do, and are doing good work in changing that.)  If your husband sits on the couch while you chase children around, pretending that he’s chipping in equally for fear that otherwise you’re living a stereotype just enables him.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  02:22 PM

I was born and raised during the 1950s, that period of enforced “Normalcy,” housewife deification and patriarchal conformity, which followed and contrasted with WWII when women were given a break in expectations, and allowed to take on the jobs and freedom of men.

Betty Friedan wrote about the anger engendered in women isolated in those suburbs, special pills (barbituates) were marketed to psychiatrists to mask that housewife anger, and 50 years later, we’re surprised that the same circumstances produce the same anger.

Comment #4: judybrowni  on  02/09  at  02:25 PM

It’s kind of weird: through Facebook I’m catching up with people I haven’t seen since high school or jr. high.  And they almost all have kids and some crappy part-time job.  And they express pity towards ME when I tell them I don’t have children, and don’t want them any time soon.  I normally decline to pity them; if they say they’re happy, who am I to contradict that?  But I find that my feelings do dip to that, a lot, when they start talking about expressing annoyance with their husband, and that they some times miss adult conversation.

Comment #5: Antigone  on  02/09  at  02:31 PM

I’ve long thought that “Empty Nest” badness comes from the mom feeling like hell when the kids leave cause all of a sudden she’s left living with just the schmuck she’s married to and is resentful towards for not helping out with the kids and housework for the last 18+ years, and can’t get up the gumption for a divorce.  She’s feeling like it’s great that she’s got all this free time and energy now, but due to resentment and stress over the course of raising the kids, that she doesn’t want to spend that free time with HIM.

Comment #6: rowmyboat  on  02/09  at  02:31 PM

We didn’t have kids, due mainly to ambivalence, and as we’re in our forties now, it looks like we won’t. And while we both get the occasional twinge of regret, overall, it was probably the best outcome, because of that ambivalence. And I know my childlessness makes me a source of deep pity amongst some of my acquaintances, but I am looking at this horrific financial crisis and thinking, well, at least we don’t have to worry about supporting kids, and our marriage is a pretty happy one.

Comment #7: Bella  on  02/09  at  02:38 PM

Men don’t, on average, pull their weight.

Another benefit I get out of this is because my wife was raised to do things around the house and take care of children, when she gets home from work she never just plops down in a chair and turns on the TV.  She gets mauled by the kids and spends some time playing with them while I finish up dinner.  Not even all of our friends, who are mostly pretty damned enlightened, have this happen.  Though it’s significant that the worst offender of “come home and expected to be catered to because he worked all day” is the most Republican of the bunch.

I have to tell my wife to stop doing housework, because she’ll do more than her share - though part of that is because I can live with much higher levels of clutter than she can.  So I really have it easy in so many ways.

Having me stay home with the kids has forced us to confront this society’s gender roles just so we can function as a family.  As stay-at-home-Dadism increases due to how women are becoming more able to make the money in a family, it’ll really help break those roles down.

Comment #8: Stephen Suh  on  02/09  at  02:39 PM

I noticed long ago, or a couple of recessions ago, that our survival as a couple or as a family depends on both partners being able to “switch hit” - meaning, be able to shift from job to home and back again as one may be more employable than the other at any given time.  This already happened to us in the post-9/11 recession when my dot com worker husband was suddenly unemployable and I was able to bump my hours to full time and add some consulting work in to keep us afloat.

I really worry about the primarily single-income families that I know.  One job loss and it is over.  Why more people can’t see that extreme risk in having a stay-at-home partner who can’t easily transition into the workforce if need be is really beyond me.

Comment #9: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  02:46 PM

BTW ... I just want to shove my face in that basket and snorgle them all!

Comment #10: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  02:47 PM

“Why more people can’t see that extreme risk in having a stay-at-home partner who can’t easily transition into the workforce if need be is really beyond me. “

Because there are a lot of benefits to having one parent stay home with the kids. For one thing, having one person responsible for house upkeep and food and one for money means you don’t have to both be equally responsible for that, and from what I’ve noticed an overall decrease in stress. There’s also the insanely high cost of daycare, and depending on each parent’s field the availability of jobs. Where I live I have a very hard time getting a decent job, but my husband is far more employable (and the location was chosen for a variety of factors that add up to a pretty high quality of life).

In short, things are different for every family and you simply can’t understand another person’s life situation. Everything’s a risk, and life’s largely about balancing them.

Comment #11: Ashley  on  02/09  at  02:55 PM

I responded to that Broadsheet piece last week; the writer’s attitude pissed me off for this very reason: “refusing to see what’s right in front of our noses isn’t going to make the world more feminist, but less.”

Comment #12: SarahMC  on  02/09  at  02:55 PM

We didn’t have kids, due mainly to ambivalence, and as we’re in our forties now, it looks like we won’t. And while we both get the occasional twinge of regret, overall, it was probably the best outcome, because of that ambivalence.

In our case, my wife has had a history of medical issues that gives her a slightly elevated risk of problems during pregnancy and childbirth: when we discussed the issue of kids before our marriage, I was adamant that if it meant risk to her (beyond that of what’s normal, of course, since giving birth is inherently risky), the answer was no, full stop.  In our case I think there was ambivalence as well, and the medical issue gave both of us an easy out.

Choosing not to have kids is still considered something odd in our culture, even though it’s becoming common.  When people have asked why we don’t have a child and pressed the issue, the ones who’ve been told it’s because of a medical issue nod sympathetically and let it drop.

Interesting little factoid: in most cases, we don’t elaborate other than saying that there’s a medical issue, and there’s a disconnect in the assumptions that are made.  We’ve found that women tend to automatically assume that it’s a medical issue with her, while men assume that it’s a medical issue with me.

Comment #13: KeithM  on  02/09  at  02:58 PM

many researchers have concluded that three’s a crowd when it comes to marital satisfaction.

My girlfriend and I have long said this is one of the reasons we will never have kids. It’s like suddenly deciding to add a third person to your relationship when you’re not actually inclined to be polyamarous.

Comment #14: mothworm  on  02/09  at  03:09 PM

There’s a flip side to this of course; given that a) someone has to have kids, some of the time, and b) it shouldn’t just be a privilege for the wealthy…what are the economic factors that make childrearing such a burden, and can they be improved? Or are ya’ll here worried that, say, subsidized daycare and paid parental leave would lead to an unwanted population boom and are therefore undesirable?

The decision to have or not have kids (or how much you enjoy them if you do) doesn’t happen in a vacuum; stresses on the American family have been going through the roof for many years, as real wages stagnated. Changing gender roles are definitely part of the stressors, but when you can’t do things to mitigate stress like hire a babysitter for a night out or pay a cleaning service once in a while, then the pressure intensifies and the quality of the relationship goes down for those reasons, also.

Comment #15: emjaybee  on  02/09  at  03:13 PM

I will not have babies until I can give birth to a litter of kittens.

When I was pregnant, I never dreamed about the child-to-be, but I dreamed several times that my cat had a litter of mini-mes (mini-hers, they were kittens, not human babies). Cute, but disturbing in their cloned quality.

I agree with the critique of the Broadsheet piece.

As for marriage quality, post kids, in addition to everything else that’s been laid out, even if you have a relatively equitable split in the workload, there’s just MORE of everything - more to do, more you can’t do, more to worry about, more to disagree about ... everything that makes living with another person and maintaining a relationship with another person complicated and challenging - there’s just more of it.

We’re getting ready to move soon, and I don’t have a job lined up yet and my industry is imploding right now. I’m good with and even supportive of the move for a variety of reasons - and I have a plan for what to do with myself if I don’t get something in my field, a plan that should leave me better positioned than I am now - but it is a bit anxiety-making, going to one income, even it’s temporary and even if that income is almost as much as we make combined right now.

As for contraceptive funding ...

...all it would do is, pragmatically speaking, put the choice not to have a child on an equal playing field with the choice to have a child, which was preferred before.  Though not necessarily by design.  It’s more that lawmakers’ prejudices plus the immediacy of child-bearing induced them to expand Medicaid access for prenatal and childbirth care, while not giving a similar expansion to access to contraceptive care.  This bill would have changed that, making the choices equal from the Medicaid funding perspective.

Here’s what I really don’t get about this. Medicaid funding for pregnancy isn’t really about encouraging child-bearing among the poor. It’s about saving money. Women who get adequate prenatal care have fewer complications and complications that do arise are caught earlier, so you have fewer premature births. When women with no prenatal care don’t show up in labor in ERs and give birth to premature babies who go on the uncompensated care side of the hospital’s books, there’s a net savings.

But, but, but ... women who use contraception cost even less and save EVEN MORE money.

The motivation for expanding funding for contraception should be the exact same or even greater, especially given that the motivation for funding pregnancy and childbirth is not altruistic or sentimental in the least.

Comment #16: chingona  on  02/09  at  03:15 PM

Ashley, no one said otherwise.  It’s just a bad idea to have one partner unable to do anything *but* stay at home with the kids if the other partner is for some reason unable to bring in adequate bacon.  “One person stays home” is fine, “it’s got to be her because she’s been rendered unemployable” is only ok if “he’s” absolutely positive he’ll never stumble.

Comment #17: Kyso K  on  02/09  at  03:17 PM

There’s a flip side to this of course; given that a) someone has to have kids, some of the time, and b) it shouldn’t just be a privilege for the wealthy…what are the economic factors that make childrearing such a burden, and can they be improved? Or are ya’ll here worried that, say, subsidized daycare and paid parental leave would lead to an unwanted population boom and are therefore undesirable?

I read the post not as saying their shouldn’t be funding for those things (or medical coverage for pregnancy/child-bearing), but there should also be funding for contraception.

I wouldn’t be shocked to find a few childfree folks here who oppose paid leave or subsidized daycare, but I think (hope?) that most self-profressed progressives understand that not having those things raise serious social justice issues and serious feminist issues.

Comment #18: chingona  on  02/09  at  03:20 PM

In these discussions, I think because women have fought so hard for the right to get their jobs and keep their jobs I often feel like we aren’t mentioning that a lot of “mom” jobs - traditional ladyjobs like office assistanting etc - are unsatisfying and low-paid positions. If both parents know what they want to do with their lives and have a way of pursuing that, of course both will fight to stay in the workforce, which probably corresponds to at least some attempts to assign household labor more equally.

If one parent has no sense of vocation and does not know what he or she wants to do with his or her life, in a gender-neutral situation it seems likely that that parent will get shunted more and more towards low-paid, low-responsibility part-time jobs, the kind of things that are just above an opt-out.

I see it happen to a lot more women than men, though, which makes me think that this is something that starts for women a long time before they think about the job market and about having kids.

Comment #19: purpleshoes  on  02/09  at  03:20 PM

Among the many ways my dad was great was that he never seemed to have a problem doing laundry, or dishes, or cooking, or taking care of me and my sister and such things. Between that and my feminist mom (who told stories about going to Michigan State in the 1960s because it had the least sexist college of veterinary and whose Catholicism couldn’t survive ‘That G.D. sexist’ as she called John Paul II. And yeah, she said “G.D.” My sister has since gotten her to curse a little more conventionally) I think I at least got the message that nothing was automatically ‘women’s work’ or ‘the man’s job.’ 

I don’t think my dad ever got any static from anyone for doing laundry and such, probably because he was 6’3”, around 300 Lbs. and somewhat resembled a shaved gorilla.

Comment #20: witless chum  on  02/09  at  03:21 PM

KysoK, yes, people have said otherwise. There’s an entire book written on the subject, and it’s an idea I’ve seen many times on feminist blogs (always written by people who don’t have children and don’t want children). And the comment i was referencing, specifically

“Why more people can’t see that extreme risk in having a stay-at-home partner who can’t easily transition into the workforce if need be is really beyond me. “

does say that.

I don’t think anyone should feel pressure to stay home, and that the gender of the stay at home parent shouldn’t matter. Back when we were dating, the husbandman and I decided that he would be better suited to stay home, but that since he had the earning power (he’s a programmer) he can’t. Things have changed in such a way that I am perfectly happy and suited to stay home, and as it fits best with what we both want out of our life and how we want our children raised, I will. The fact that we’ve been planning this from the beginning has been nice as we can, easily, live on one salary and the fact that I had to quit my job early in my pregnancy due to pregnancy-issues (severe back pain) meant that we didn’t take much financial hit. As Stephanie Coontz argues, it’s planning, egalitarianism, and free choice that makes such a situation work out.

Comment #21: Ashley  on  02/09  at  03:26 PM

Em, that’s all true, but even if you gave parents everything they needed, the impact of children on marital happiness would still be negative.  And we’re not doing people any good, much less our environment, by covering up that fact in order to convince people to conform so that people who already have children feel more secure in that decision.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  03:36 PM

Stephen- it sounds like our situations are somewhat similar.  My wife and I have one child, a daughter, and waited until we were in out 30’s to do so.  She works in a stable state job, I’m a stay at home dad who teaches part time (very occasionally) at the local community college. 

One thing I find very interesting about people’s reactions to my being a stay-at-home dad is how widely they vary, and how much they seem to be generational.  People over 40 often look at me, as you say, like I’m some kind of martyr or something.  Younger folks don’t seem to think as much of it… it’s easy to take it in stride.  I think those stereotypes really are starting to shift just a little.  The more women gain equality in the workplace, the more it becomes viable for a woman to be the primary wage-earner in a family, the less reason there is to hold onto outdated patriarchal values.  Ultimately, it’s probably inevitable that being childfree will lose it’s stigma.

The one real problem I have encountered with this generational shift towards a childfree lifestyle is that some people, even those I consider friends, look on our decision to have a child as somehow harmful, even offensive, to them personally.  I mean, just because I have a kid now doesn’t mean I will side with the AFA.  At the same time, I’ve experienced a sort of seething resentment from some conservatives that since I’m staying at home instead of being the breadwinner like a good paterfamilias aught to, I’m somehow undermining America.  I find myself having to justify my lifestyle choices to the oddest criticism, and from all sides.  I haven’t yet found a way to express this adequately; it’s just something that’s come up as an issue personally.

Comment #23: jamie d  on  02/09  at  03:38 PM

re: octuplets

I saw the interview the octuplets’ mom did that aired Friday evening and she is off her gourd.  I say this not as a sexist or racist response to the woman and her 14 children but because I watched the interview.  And I am troubled by the woman’s obvious plastic surgery to her face. 

There is information coming out now that her mother (who has been taking care of the children) is overwhelmed and thinking about moving out of the three-bedroom house where she, her ex-husband, and Nadya had been living with the six kids.

I think Nadya seemed incredibly naive regarding the health challenges the 8 babies may have and how she could possibly have enough time and attention for all 14.  I am angry at her because I think her children are going to be living in hell (and may be in the custody of CPS before too long) and I feel really sorry for them right now.  Especially the oldest kids who while young will soon be taking care of the new group of 8.

The kids didn’t ask for this.

Comment #24: barbara smith  on  02/09  at  03:40 PM

You’d think, chin, but it’s easier for conservative politicians to imply that people who support contraception access are trying to help people escape their duty to have children.

Considering how many people’s happiness levels take a massive dive post-childbirth, I suspect there’s a misery loves company aspect to anti-choice enthusiasm for making childbirth mandatory.  People who have kids made their choice and are stuck with it, and some of them who may not like that want others to be stuck with it, too, even if the choice was just to have sex and not to have kids.  I suspect people who are actually happy with kids are more likely to be pro-choice. Sneaking suspicion, especially since retro gender roles are linked to both anti-choice politics and to marital dissatisfaction post-childbirth.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  03:41 PM

Why more people can’t see that extreme risk in having a stay-at-home partner who can’t easily transition into the workforce if need be is really beyond me.

Why more people can’t see that staying at home does not mean you’re unskilled and incapable of “real work” is really beyond me.

No, really.

I’ve been home by choice with my sons since they were born.  They’re now verging on 13 and 17, and I’m still home, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything.  We felt there were greater risks in leaving our children in someone else’s care, so we simply chose not to. 

When expenses started increasing and I needed to slip back into the workforce, I did.  From home.  And home I am, working part time for a large software company and part time for an attorney, setting my own hours and fitting my work into my life instead of my life into my work.  I pick up extra projects as I please, and the household lacks for nothing.  Dad still plays the “traditional” breadwinner role, traveling all over Hell’s Half Acre for his job, which he enjoys.  I stay home, earn a touch more money than he does, and get to hang out with my kids and their friends, have a busy social life on my terms rather than an employer’s schedule, and make myself and my entire household happy.

We all have to do what works for our families - and for some of us, what works is having someone home to “hold down the fort”, as it were.  We’re not taking any more risks than anyone else, we’re just taking slightly different ones.

Comment #26: MaggieB  on  02/09  at  03:43 PM

Barbara, but the thing is, if she is in fact mentally ill, which I believe is likely, then the response to her shouldn’t be anger so much as compassion.  And I’m upset that our society can’t get past stigmatizing mental illness to the degree that it is probably impossible to help her without making about punishing her.  And if she was married and she did this, no one would even bat an eye.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  03:47 PM

That may be true, Maggie, but it is hard to blame employers who don’t want to hire someone with no job experience on their resume instead of someone with job experience.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  03:48 PM

That may be true, Maggie, but it is hard to blame employers who don’t want to hire someone with no job experience on their resume instead of someone with job experience.

This assumes that staying at home automatically means that you have no job experience.  While this may be true for many stay at home parents, it is certainly not true for all of them, and I think it’s just a crappy assumption to make in any case.

Comment #29: MaggieB  on  02/09  at  04:05 PM

Ashley - If you’re reading books that argue no parent should ever stay home full-time, that’s different from Ms Kate and KysoK’s points.  They’re arguing that the financial stability of a family is better served when both parents can transition as necessary into and out of the work force, and that the transition aids in other aspects of easing family tensions.

I don’t have children and at 31 still don’t particularly want any.  My boyfriend does want children, but as he’s disabled, I know all the burden of the physical aspect of child-rearing would fall on me, and that just pushes my ambivalence into Hell No territory.

Comment #30: deep6  on  02/09  at  04:06 PM

This to me is the root cause of “Post Partum Depression”. At least with me, it was then, when the baby was born and needed feeding / changing, etc.. that I realized:
1)Oh shit, this is going to be a lot of work!
2) Nice, sweet hubby of pregnancy times was suddenly telling you “I can’t make baby stop crying so you take him”
3)Which meant I was expected to do the bulk of the work.. for the next 18 years!!!
4) WTF did I get myself into ?!?!?
5)< depression sets in >

Women go from “glowing” princess when they are pregnant to exhausted baby barf covered pumpkins in just a few weeks. No wonder most of them feel like screaming and crying!
Eventually you get used to it or scream / nag enough that your husband helps a bit more, but having kids definitely changes the power dynamics of a marriage, placing women in a very unfavorable place. You can refuse to do it, but then you hurt your kids. So you are in for a caricature life, unless your husband grows up.

Comment #31: Renmiri  on  02/09  at  04:16 PM

I agree that much of the anger directed toward Nadya Suleman is drawn from sexism, but I can’t help but think some of it is related to the current state of the economy.

From what I can tell, Ms. Suleman’s family was successful.  It seems she has squandered their success on plastic surgery and IVF.  She also now has 14 children whom she expects to be cared for by donations from the public and publicity deals.  I think that’s generating a great deal of resentment.  She’s a poster child for what got us into this mess (People living beyond their means.) and a poster child for rank entitlement.

Comment #32: keshmeshi  on  02/09  at  04:19 PM

I think the reason that every woman falls all over herself to caveat her complaints about her children with “oh, don’t get me wrong, I looooovvvveeee my children” is because there’s a profound psychological stress that happens when a woman dares to think of how her life would be like without the children: she has another human life who is on this planet because of her—because she brought it into being… and she’s responsible for it and has been intimately tied to it in every way since its birth. And it’s impossible to even hypothetically erase that life without the woman feeling that she’s killed her children somehow. To kvetch and moan about how the kids drive you crazy and how miserable you are strays into the “I wish I’d never had them” camp and there’s a certain emotional backlash that happens there.

We have to justify our misery to ourselves, because we like to think we’re above making boneheaded choices that make us miserable. Every person writing to an advice columnist about serious relationship trouble always makes sure to point out “I love this person” as if that love is somehow worth the cheating, the abuse, the complete lack of gratification, etc… when really, that “love” is just the mind trying to find a framework to explain why the hell the person is still there when “I’m afraid to be alone” sounds too weak-willed and “I’m afraid he’ll kill me if I leave” is a truth too terrible to face.

I’ve known couples who are happy with children, and I’ve known couples who were absolutely miserable. I firmly believe no-one should “slide into” parenting, because I have yet to meet people who got a surprise, decided to go ahead with it, and are anywhere near as happy as the couples who went into it consciously and deliberately. And yes, the happiest couples are also the ones with the most egalitarian households.

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/09  at  04:20 PM

Um, I think one source of apparent but unnecessary disagreement here is that there are two possible ways to parse this sentence:
“Why more people can’t see that extreme risk in having a stay-at-home partner who can’t easily transition into the workforce if need be is really beyond me.”

Possibility 1, which people are rightly taking umbrage with: ....that extreme risk in having a stay-at-home partner, because being a SAH partner means one cannot easily transition into the workforce…

Possibility 2, which is how I think it was originally intended: ....that it is extremely risky for SAH parents to pay no attention to whether they could pick up the employment slack if that were to become necessary, because staying home to take care of the kids need not inevitably mean you become unemployable, and you never know what the future will bring….

It’s the meaning of the “who can’t” phrase that’s ambiguous in the original sentence, and I think everyone is really on the page.

Comment #34: CalliopeJane  on  02/09  at  04:23 PM

I will say, Amanda, that I’m not sure you draw quite the right conclusions from the marital happiness/kids studies. I don’t think it’s a big secret that people are covering up. I think it’s just that people think it won’t happen to them. Nobody gets married thinking they’ll get divorced, either. There are some good arguments againt marriage, particularly from a feminist perspective, but I don’t think “You might get divorced!!!” is one of them.

There are some real rewards and joys to having kids, and there are some real stresses and downsides, too. They go together, and you don’t get one without the other. If the joys and rewards don’t actually appeal to you that much, if the downsides seem really bad to you, maybe you shouldn’t have kids. If your life/relationships already have a lot of stress, you should understand that having kids will only increase that. But it’s not some zero-sum game. There are stresses I wouldn’t have if I didn’t have a kid, but there also are pleasures I wouldn’t know.

I recently was very surprised to hear a friend of mine, who I thought would know better, express a negative view of people who don’t want to have kids. When I challenged what she was saying, it really was just an inability to put herself in someone else’s shoes. It wasn’t at all a misery loves company thing. It was just an inability to understand that what makes her happy isn’t the same thing that makes everyone happy.

And when I think about kids and happiness, the first thing I think of is some good, fun thing recently with my kid. I can step back and look objectively at my relationship with my husband and say that yes, we fight more and stress more since we had the kid, but that’s not what’s front and center in my mind when someone ask me how I feel about having a kid or being a mother.

Comment #35: chingona  on  02/09  at  04:26 PM

If people were outraged by large families for environmental reasons, I would be ok with that.

Comment #36: Entomologista  on  02/09  at  04:36 PM

It’s a bit myopic to look at this problem as one of individual responsibility and choice.  Full-time jobs get their names from the expectation that people will devote their “full-time” to them.  If one parent works full-time and the other doesn’t, it is unreasonable to expect that the full-time parent will pull full weight in the house.  If both work full-time, home life isn’t going to be very pleasant, no matter how home responsibilities are shared.

I’ve worked at companies that expected 50-60 hour weeks from their salaried employees.  I know of companies that expect more.  I can’t imagine raising kids with two parents working schedules like that, but I also know that companies reward such dedication with more responsibility, influence, power, money, etc.  That presents those who want families with difficult choices. Unsurprisingly, childless families are not at all unusual.

Which presents a conundrum.  If companies didn’t/couldn’t expect/reward dedication past a certain level, it would be much easier for people to have kids and maintain equality at home.  If, for example, companies allowed 30-hour work weeks and didn’t give disproportionate rewards for the next 30 hours, both parents could work 30 hours instead of one working 40 and the other 20, or one 60 and the other none, or whatever.

Those who choose not to have kids might reasonably object to such policies.

Comment #37: Bob  on  02/09  at  04:49 PM

It’s worth noting that for my husband, who really does do a big amount of the childcare when he’s home and does most of the housework, there’s pressure from the outside because he sees that all the men he works with do less. It’s not that they say anything, or that they judge him, it’s that he sees that their lives are easier than his. And while he knows, logically, that they’re trading their ease for their wives’ and that I’m happier and our marriage is much more equitable, I think it’s hard for him not to feel resentful - he’s being held to higher standard than the other men he knows.

Comment #38: Av0gadro  on  02/09  at  04:50 PM

Mighty Ponygirl: “To kvetch and moan about how the kids drive you crazy and how miserable you are strays into the “I wish I’d never had them” camp and there’s a certain emotional backlash that happens there. “

Funny you should say that.  Back in November, as I was standing in line to vote, I became involved in a conversation with the woman standing in front of me (as often happens when you find yourself caught in a 3-hour-long line).  As we chatted about this and that, the subject of children came up.  When I mentioned that I didn’t have children,  and don’t plan on having any, her reaction caught me completely off guard.  She said, “You made the right decision.  Don’t ever let anyone tell you that you didn’t.  If I had it to do over again, I certainly never would have had any.”

In the context of, as Amanda addresses, a culture where we are so reticent to even mention the downsides of childbearing and parenthood, her blunt honesty to a virtual stranger was surprising - to say the least.

Comment #39: MissyAnne Thrope  on  02/09  at  04:51 PM

Renmiri, um…PPD is actually quite a bit more complicated than that, in that hormones and bodily processes play a very large part. Even women with happy marriages, lots of support, etc. etc. get it (I would wager Brooke Shields was not worried about her ability to afford childcare or get enough sleep, for example).

I think yes, you could say that outside stressors either make PPD more likely or deepen/prolong it; but actually, one of the most difficult things about can be how utterly over the moon you can be about the baby, how glad you can be to have him or her, while still feeling that life is utterly worthless.  And then one day, via drugs or time, it goes away, and you realize how odd and alien it was. At least, in my experience. I have had lighter bouts depressions since, and certainly plenty of child-related stress, but my PPD was a different animal.

Comment #40: emjaybee  on  02/09  at  04:51 PM

Also, I want a kitten now. Despite having two cats and a dog and a toddler already. Thanks, Amanda.

Comment #41: Av0gadro  on  02/09  at  04:52 PM

There’s no doubt in my mind that the reaction to Suleman is hostile for sexist and possibly racist reasons

I haven’t been reading about this story and only saw the clips on Keith Olbermann.  Is Nadya Suleman a person of color?

Comment #42: FlipYrWhig  on  02/09  at  04:53 PM

“Barbara, but the thing is, if she is in fact mentally ill, which I believe is likely, then the response to her shouldn’t be anger so much as compassion.  And I’m upset that our society can’t get past stigmatizing mental illness to the degree that it is probably impossible to help her without making about punishing her.  And if she was married and she did this, no one would even bat an eye.”

Okay, so for the sake of argument, why should it be compassion?  Don’t get me wrong, I hold the physician very responsible.  Medical ethicists will be debating this for years, but her actions produced additional people whose lives will be negatively affected for decades.  I have an idea that she’s already been in therapy, probably has been diagnosed by a healthcare practitioner and still she went down this path.  I dare well believe that her parents expressed their frustration with her and her lifestyle.

As adults, we need to be responsible for addressing our own illnesses.  This woman has not done such.  I feel compassion for the children. 

Also, I cannot address society’s treatment of her, but I do think that society would not think so well on a married couple with octuplets who already had 6 children.  The McCaughey (from Iowa) got away with their 6 or 7 kids because they had 1 older child at home.  When you know there is already 6 kids at home, what is the press for more children?  Why go through additional fertility treatments?  I would think dimly at a married couple who made these sets of decisions.  It does not make sense to me at all from a caretaking perspective.

Comment #43: barbara smith  on  02/09  at  05:03 PM

At the same time, I’ve experienced a sort of seething resentment from some conservatives that since I’m staying at home instead of being the breadwinner like a good paterfamilias aught to, I’m somehow undermining America.

Yeah, I got a little of that, and I’ve noticed that the generational thing is usually operative.  One thing that helped is that we shortly after we made the decision for me to be a homemaker, ha ha, we finally made a total break with the denomination in which we both grew up and started attending a very accepting and loving Episcopal congregation.  Even the older members are better equipped to handle it than many of the younger members of our previous church who were so steeped in dumb gender roles.

Comment #44: Stephen Suh  on  02/09  at  05:04 PM

This assumes that staying at home automatically means that you have no job experience.  While this may be true for many stay at home parents, it is certainly not true for all of them, and I think it’s just a crappy assumption to make in any case.

Which is all the more reason for people to consider delaying childbearing until both parents are of sufficient professional stature or training or qualification to take turns supporting the family if the need arises.  I was able to keep a roof over our heads because I had been working a very part-time job when the kids were very little and hubbie was pulling down big dotcom bux.  When the dotcom bubble burst, I was able to ramp to full time with benefits.  Of course it helped that we didn’t buy a house that demanded that sort of income being permanent ...

I know full damn well what day care costs, thank you.  I know some people prefer to stay home because they don’t have the earning potential of their spouse.  My advice as a wily old geezer parent is to NOT breed until you can both switch hit job and family - another thing I learned from watching gay families parent, actually.

Comment #45: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  05:16 PM

Barbara, but the thing is, if she is in fact mentally ill, which I believe is likely, then the response to her shouldn’t be anger so much as compassion.

If you’ve ever dealt with someone mentally ill before, you know that sometimes they can really, really piss you off.

I think the difference between Suleman’s multiple births and other couples’ is that the reaction of most other people is, “Oh my! What a difficult position for that couple to be in, when all they were doing was trying to conceive!”, whereas Suleman comes across as a woman out-of-control and having children in a desperate bid for attention and to fulfill her own personal problems. Even the attraction of the Duggars is, I think, as a chance to watch a carnival sideshow.

I feel sympathy for Suleman’s parents. In the sense that I wish more people with problems related to mental illness got the help they need, I certainly feel for Suleman that she didn’t get it. But I understand how some people feel she’s outrageous. They have compassion for the children and are angry at the parent for setting up an abusive situation for them.

Comment #46: Tyro  on  02/09  at  05:28 PM

@ Stephen Suh

There’s a huge amount of social pressure on women to do more and men to do less.

One of the weirder moments of my life occurred a few weeks ago when my husband and I picked our boys up at the YMCA childcare center. We run together on Saturday mornings and they stay in the childcare center for about an hour. My husband usually drops them off, because my youngest will detach from his father more easily than his mother.  The oldest ripped the butt out of his pants and the lead childcare worker pointed it out. My husband said something about it was time for those pants to go, and she made a remark about how hard he works and those poor children “don’t have a mother to take care of them.” 

What? I’m their mother! I was standing right there! She sees me every week. Apparently, because I don’t wear jewelry when I run (no ring!) and because the husband takes them into the childcare center, she assumed that the kids don’t have a mother and I’m their father’s girlfriend.  I give up five minutes worth of work (the drop-off at the childcare center) and my kids have been labeled “motherless orphans.”

The flip side of her “oh, poor thing” remark was that a father couldn’t possibly take proper care of his children, no matter how caring or involved he is.

Comment #47: Dawn  on  02/09  at  05:52 PM

<i>If people were outraged by large families for environmental reasons, I would be ok with that.<i>

Me too, actually. Wait, I am. But who among us is not creeped out by the Duggars?

Comment #48: purpleshoes  on  02/09  at  06:01 PM

Dawn—that’s just crazy.  Bob—personally, I think a workweek that averages 50-60 hours, single, married, or with kids, is just nuts. Even when I was 22 and had zero responsibilities, I would have balked at that.

It’s only a semi-related discussion, but there is a point at which an employer, no matter how well they reward you financially, is exploiting you to your harm.  At 60 hours a week, you’re likely not eating well, you’re not getting enough sunshine or exercise, you have no non-work life. Lack of sleep and bad diet has long term effects on anyone, not to mention stress, not to mention loneliness and damage to non-work relationships.

Comment #49: emjaybee  on  02/09  at  06:05 PM

bob: “Which presents a conundrum.  If companies didn’t/couldn’t expect/reward dedication past a certain level, it would be much easier for people to have kids and maintain equality at home.  If, for example, companies allowed 30-hour work weeks and didn’t give disproportionate rewards for the next 30 hours, both parents could work 30 hours instead of one working 40 and the other 20, or one 60 and the other none, or whatever.
Those who choose not to have kids might reasonably object to such policies.”

actually, i wouldn’t object at all. i don’t have kids and don’t really ever want kids (although i constantly hear the old standard, “oh, you’ll change your mind…!”). just because my partner and i wish to remain childless doesn’t mean we wouldn’t apprecite the ability to separate our work and home life properly without professional repercussions. we have a cat to baby, and we have a relationship to nurture. sure, not huge responsibilities on the scale of 2.8 children, i realize. childless does not necessarily equal soulless worker drone.

Comment #50: akzidenzgrotesk  on  02/09  at  06:06 PM

Oh, I’m quite aware of the “I’m better than everyone else” phenomenon, chin.  But it’s easier to pull off if you think you’re likely to fall in the top 50% or even 10%.  I do see people frantically denying that kids stress out and ruin marriages as often as they do, though, because no one wants to blame the children, who are blameless for their own existence.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  06:11 PM

Yeah, Tyro, I have, and I agree.

Luckily, no one reading Suleman’s story has to deal with her.  We have no excuse but to be compassionate if she does indeed suffer from mental illness.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  06:12 PM

If, for example, companies allowed 30-hour work weeks and didn’t give disproportionate rewards for the next 30 hours, both parents could work 30 hours instead of one working 40 and the other 20, or one 60 and the other none, or whatever.

Those who choose not to have kids might reasonably object to such policies.

Uh, what? You know, I can think of eleventy-million things I’d rather do than work overtime every night. And I don’t have any kids. But hell, it would be nice to have enough time to do laundry or exercise or, you know, cook a decent meal a couple nights a week. Or do you have to have kids for your off-time to be worth cultivating?

Comment #53: Well, what?  on  02/09  at  06:16 PM

Luckily, no one reading Suleman’s story has to deal with her.  We have no excuse but to be compassionate if she does indeed suffer from mental illness.

I probably should see if anybody has created an escape fund for Angela Suleman ... the woman that Nadya blames for making her an only child while dumping her kids on her at every opportunity - or so it would seem. 

Mentally ill or just poisonously selfish that Nadya Suleman may be, her mother needs to be able to get out now.

Comment #54: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  06:24 PM

Those who choose not to have kids might reasonably object to such policies.

Or do you have to have kids for your off-time to be worth cultivating?

Whoa, truce.

I think that was just a reference to the fact that SOME very few people like to work unpaid overtime to “get ahead” in the business (see the stereotypical WallStreet trader and the like) and it was meant as a nod to the fact that some childless people would prefer that the world not be structured around child-ed people in the form of “no overtime” laws.

I don’t think it was intended as a statement that you have to have children to not work overtime.

Comment #55: Essie Elephant  on  02/09  at  06:31 PM

Heck, the fewer hours that your kidfree friends work, the more time they have for babysitting!

(ducks)

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  06:38 PM

Actually, I think Bob makes a valid point.  The issue isn’t that people just LUURVE working overtime.  The issue is that in many corporate environments - or even in some small business environments - the expectation is that you work like a dog to make money or to put yourself in a position to make better money.  People without children can more easily commit to the full-time + extra workload, unless the person with children has reliable child care (which in my industry = unpaid at-home spouse). 

There are several men in my office with children and a working spouse, and several men with children and a non-working spouse.  I don’t mind if they have to leave early for random family events, or if they take last-minute time off, and I do *not* put my .02 in regarding how they use their paid or unpaid leave, even if I have to cover their work . . . so long as I’m granted the same leniency.  I’m not interested in being held to a higher standard of attendance and responsibility than my child-burdened coworkers if we’re expected to perform the same work.  And I would expect the person’s performance to remain above a certain level.  There’s a guy on my team who works from home just because he wants to, but I can’t - and no one’s given me a legit reason for it.  He has a longer commute time, but big deal: He signed the employment form to work here, just like I did.  There’s a certain amount of sympathy he gets from our manager because of the commute + family (even though his wife is full-time stay-at-home) and he takes advantage of it.  That’s not fair.  But this is a specific instance of abuse.  I don’t think parents generally get the better end of the bargain when it comes to employer leniency.

Comment #57: deep6  on  02/09  at  06:41 PM

It’s worth noting that for my husband, who really does do a big amount of the childcare when he’s home and does most of the housework, there’s pressure from the outside because he sees that all the men he works with do less.

It’s not necessarily just from men, depending on the generation.  When I’m back east for Christmas, I stay at the in-laws (they have more room than my parents).  The first year I was there at the same time as my wife’s grandmother, the old lady was shocked and appalled when, after the meal, I got up from the table, cleared it, and started doing dishes.  She became even more disconcerted when she found out that I do most of the cooking, and all of it when it comes to big meals when people are over, when we’re at our place.  (My wife makes wonderful desserts but wisely leaves the main meal to me as I tend to get possessive of my kitchen when working.)

Comment #58: KeithM  on  02/09  at  06:45 PM

deep6, can I just say thank you for laying out that issue in such a clear way without blaming parents and in your one instance of abuse, for using a father and not a mother as your example and for being clear that that parent is gaming the system rather than being typical of working parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, but it drives up the fucking wall when people act like leaving work early because daycare called to say your kid is puking and has a fever of 102 is some sort of “perk.” So thank you for not doing that.

Comment #59: chingona  on  02/09  at  06:50 PM

My husband works closer to the kids’ schools than I do, and usually has some sort of higher speed transport available (motorcycle or car).  As such, he is listed as “call first” on the forms we gave the school, and the kids tell the administrators or the school nurse to call their father when they need to be picked up or there is some question to be resolved.

Guess who they call.

Comment #60: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  07:07 PM

The “sweatshop” conditions I describe aren’t unusual in high-tech.  Lots of people know that Google feeds their employees for free, but that free food carries the expectation that people will go back to work after dinner, but I don’t think expectations like that are unique.  Medical intern hours are notorious, as are associate hours at law firms.  Police and firefighters work lots of overtime.

I realize that’s *slightly* biased example of workplaces, but even in more normal jobs, businesses have incentives to get more hours out of fewer employees.  If 20 hours/week yields benefits, companies will tend to avoid hiring people for more than 19 or less than 40.  That makes good 30hr/wk jobs harder to find.

And Essie was right.  My point wasn’t that someone should need to have a child to have a good 30 hour job, but I know people who would see treating those who work 30 and 60 hours as equally valuable (or even proportionally valuable) as discrimination against those willing to dedicate their lives to work.  Since this is a thread about respecting the childless, it seemed important to recognize that conflict.

Comment #61: Bob  on  02/09  at  07:14 PM

I don’t think it was intended as a statement that you have to have children to not work overtime.

That’s the point—he suggested a whole culture where overtime was not the norm. And then claimed that the unchilded would have a problem with that culture. Which is…fucking bizarre, frankly. Nobody (save the few outliers like super-competitive lawyers and the traders mentioned above) LIKES our current work structure. Nobody’s going to object to more free time without a cut in pay or prestige. Like deep6 said, I am all for EVERYONE getting the option to be flexible with their hours. Whether they use that flexibility to care for a kid, care for a parent, or smoke pot in the basement. I honestly don’t care.

BUT, as an unchilded woman, I get the “workaholic with no life” assumption a lot.  From bosses, family, friends.
(I also get the “your financial problems don’t matter because you don’t have a family” thing, but that’s another thread…)

Comment #62: Well, what?  on  02/09  at  07:19 PM

Hey Bob, to address your other point, about the working spouse wanting to have not-work time be time off rather than time-to-do-housework, because s/he already works full time. 

What about the stay-at-home partner?  When is their time off?  So what if one partner is putting in in 50-60 hours a week at the office?  The other one is putting in just as much time at home, if not more, and is on call 24-7 for anything that may pop up.  They don’t get to clock out, and they don’t get days off.

Comment #63: rowmyboat  on  02/09  at  07:21 PM

@Bob,

Why would anyone object to that?  Even people who don’t have kids would probably love to have more time to enjoy their youth, their money, their hobbies, their lovers, I’m sure.  It’s like, as soon as you have enough money to move to a beach front house, you are probably to busy to go to the beach everyday.  That shouldn’t happen, right?

Comment #64: raspberryjamba  on  02/09  at  07:21 PM

This is not to say, I suppose, that outliers don’t exist/aren’t important. They are, however, a MUCH smaller group than our current corporate culture would suggest. The fact that workers are expected to at the very least pay lip service to the idea of “I’m all about The Company!” does a lot to mask the true numbers.

Kids or no, most people want a life. And would be happy for any reform that helped them do so. That is all.

Comment #65: Well, what?  on  02/09  at  07:26 PM

Renmiri, um…PPD is actually quite a bit more complicated than that
Granted, there’s all those hormones and body changes too. But at least in my experience, a big part of my PPD was the realization that a fragile young life depended on me, and very few people could and were willing to help.

It’s worth noting that for my husband, who really does do a big amount of the childcare when he’s home and does most of the housework, there’s pressure from the outside because he sees that all the men he works with do less.
Yeah, my ex-husband used to get teased a lot for helping, changing diapers, etc… So he got a young sweet thing on the side and took her to business trips. That ended the teasing. And our marriage…

Comment #66: Renmiri  on  02/09  at  07:37 PM

I just think a few people need to take a deep breath and chill on Bob.

I read his comment as trying to be respectful to ALL people, including some Wall Street types, not as some kind of indictment on childless people.

Some people love to work overtime - unpaid or not. I used to date a guy who did - he got off on the “competitiveness”, whatever that might mean. Bob was just trying to nod at the fact that those people exist and might feel differently.

Let’s not hang people for trying to realize there are different viewpoints than their own!

Comment #67: Essie Elephant  on  02/09  at  07:38 PM

So, all that to say, I think EVERYONE here agrees that Bob’s “no unpaid/mandatory overtime” world would be fantastic for us personally, and that there might be a small minority of the population who wouldn’t like it, but who could probably be persuaded to get a hobby or something.

So, no argument, I think.

Comment #68: Essie Elephant  on  02/09  at  07:39 PM

I’m having a tough time with the rationale that if Suleman is mentally ill we should be sympathetic. OK, I mean, I get it from an intellectual standpoint and I’m not sure why it’s driving me so crazy but this woman conceived while ON DISABILITY USING IVF repeatedly. And, her parents must file bankruptcy because of her lack of consideration or sanity.

I have a bad back. I decided not to have kids. If you’re in soooo much pain and can’t work to earn any money, you need to THINK a little about what you are doing and how you are taxing resources. It DOES MATTER.

That being said, I was infinitely more sympathetic toward Andrea Yates when she drowned her children. She’d been fed plenty of quiverful bullshit by her “church” and husband and even after they knew she was ill, they convinced her it was still a good idea to keep making babies even while she was self injuring and having both homicidal and suicidal thoughts. She was psychotic and well beyond being able to help herself or make any decisions for herself.

But this doesn’t seem the case with Suleman. Sure, she’s detached from reality a bit but I don’t think she’s completely insane…Horribly selfish and possibly a bit narcissistic but not insane in the clinical sense. She’s not the only one with any culpability here, either. I blame the doctor much more for implanting so many eggs and I blame the hospital for not having any protocols and I blame her parents for being enablers….

But I am neither racist nor sexist and really feel that’s an oversimplification of a very complex issue.

Oh, and as for new moms and dads keeping the lid on how terrifyingly bad it all gets immediately following a new baby, I agree. I’ve had several close friends tell me they were pissed that NO ONE, not even their closest mom friends, told them just how much it would suck. They felt if there had been more candor from people who had children about the shitty front end, they would have felt there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Many had to find out for themselves that it does get better. Some only after reaching a point of (almost) no return with their unhappy spouses….

Comment #69: TexasKaren  on  02/09  at  07:42 PM

As adults, we need to be responsible for addressing our own illnesses.
Wow.  Just wow. This shows such a complete lack of understanding of mental illness and the health care system we live in that I almost don’t know what to say.

Part of the problem with *some* (not all, obv) mental illnesses is that you either don’t know that you need treatment or find it incredibly difficult to go about getting it.  Sometimes both. Throw in a health system where mental illness might not even be covered if you HAVE insurance, much less if you don’t.  Add the difficulties of navigating the medical bureaucracy on the best day with a clear head, then imagine doing it when you’re manic, or too scared to pick up the phone, or can’t even get out of bed, etc., etc. 

I’ve been living with an absolutely wonderful, brilliant, funny partner who’s been struggling with depression for years.  It took him 2 years to get treatment because (as the depression convinced him) nothing could be done to help anyway.  When he finally had a breakdown and accepted that he needed care, I needed to call the number, talk to the receptionist, and then put him on the phone, because the idea of making that phone call seemed too overwhelming and humiliating and scary to him.  He was curled in the fetal position crying.  This is not because he is a weak or, as you would have it, “irresponsible” person.  It’s because he was in the grip of a terrible illness that gets part of its power from convincing you there’s nothing that can ever make it go away.  And if we hadn’t had good health insurance that makes it (relatively) easy to get mental health care, I honestly don’t know what would have happened.

And I really don’t get the people who seem to resent being asked to be compassionate.  What could be more important than striving to be compassionate for people?  We all will do dumb or harmful things in our lives.  But some of us are lucky enough that those things won’t have horrible consequences or be closely followed by a national audience.  This woman will fade from view in a few years, and she and her children will have a very hard road to walk.  To be sure, this is because of her actions; I’m not saying she’s blameless.  But compassion doesn’t require that the person be blameless.  It requires a recognition of their humanity.

Comment #70: Betsy  on  02/09  at  09:25 PM

Seeing as I did some pretty crazy shit back in the day, I’d like to second Betsy @ 7:25 PM. This Suleiman woman sounds like she’s making terrible choices, acting incredibly irresponsible and narcisistic. But, I dunno, she sounds like she has mental problems. And she and her babies are gonna have a tough life for a long time to come. So I’m inclined to view her with something other than hatred.

Comment #71: atheist  on  02/09  at  09:42 PM

But compassion doesn’t require that the person be blameless.  It requires a recognition of their humanity.

 

Thanks for this, Betsy.

Comment #72: pennylane  on  02/09  at  10:10 PM

In my experience, complaining about parenting* is one more way to invite judgement (and speculation, derision, condescension, pity [not sympathy], and that creepy holier-than-thouness that absolutely everyone on every end of every spectrum loves to extend to women, and mothers) on one’s choices.

Love parenting, simply loooove it? Whatta sad little fool/tool of the P. Don’t you want your personhood back?

Despise it, can’t wait for the kid/s to get big enough to tend at least partially to themselves? Oh. How unusual. Well I love being with my kids!

Kinda love it, kinda hate it, have some fun with it, experience some abject misery because of it? But it’s either/or, not just some life choice you can experience with shades of grey. Don’t you have an opinion? And why do you hate stay-at-home-moms/child-free women?

*Not so much for dads, though this is changing. Dads can “hate” being dads, haw haw haw, ‘cause we know how ill-equpped they are to tolerate sprog running all over the joint. They get cookies for simply sticking around. It’s really cute when they take the little ones to the park!

Comment #73: mir  on  02/09  at  10:11 PM

Not having children was never a decision for me.  I simply can’t imagine doing so.  It took me such a long time to find myself and to bring myself up, that I can’t imagine having the energy to deal with another dimension of chaos—a chip of the old block.

I find it perplexing, though, when I go out to hairdressers, doctors, or the like, only to encounter the heavy emphasis on children.  The doctor always asks me when my last period was, as if that were any of his business (I’ve told him already that the husband is infertile).  Hairdressers mention children as if they detect something maternal in me apart from my age (I’m 40).  I start to wonder what they think they see that I don’t.  I am weirded out by it.

Comment #74: scratchy888  on  02/09  at  10:47 PM

The doctor always asks me when my last period was, as if that were any of his business (I’ve told him already that the husband is infertile). 

There are other reasons this sort of information can be important.  Though I’m with you on the obnoxiously nosy questions from gynecologists.  I’m convinced it’s all in the tone, though, and it’s one reason I don’t like seeing a male doctor.  The right kind of GYN can ask me sensitive reproductive health questions like that without sounding like she’s shopping for a brood mare or looking to tattoo the word SLUT on my forehead.

Comment #75: The Opoponax  on  02/09  at  10:59 PM

I’m thoroughly convinced that this Suleman issue is just a way for conservatives and pro-patriarchal, anti-welfare meritocrats to have ultimate control over the uterus. It’s not enough to verbally eviscerate a woman for having AN abortion, or how poverty-stricken single moms (even ones who were denied ready access to abortion when their deadbeat lovers left/divorced them) overly burden THEIR taxes. Now they must verbally assassinate and torment the metaphorical corpse of a woman’s sense of self for being a single, unemployed mother who can only be described as a madonna, citing “concerns for the children”. Despite the fact that CHILDREN, the INFIRM,  and the ELDERLY comprise a overwhelming majority of welfare recipients and cannot improve their stance in society, these unfeeling “people” claim that the welfare system is for lazy people who don’t want to work, but can, and therefore the welfare system should be abolished. Even IF Suleman’s children were to receive welfare, this would amount to less than what is perceivable of the average meritocrat’s tax pennies and it still refuses to address the issue:
According to these Meritocrats, at what point should a fertile woman be denied the ability to bear children? When does “Go forth and be Fruitful” no longer apply? Furthermore, when did the majority of meritocrats decide that fertility control was a good idea? You know, population control sounds a lot like a notion adopted by the socialist nation (China) that the typical meritocrat loves to hate.

Because I think Suleman looks so much like Angelina Jolie, I have to ask… how come an unemployed single mom is considered inethical for having 14 children (attention/nurture deficit), but Quiverfull moms or even focused career moms are not? Even children of parents with money can develop a failure to thrive. Suleman is rational and calm in the interviews I’ve seen of her… and as for concerns over whether or not she can financially support her children? Let the Quiverfull moms help her out, since they’re so “well-equipped” to handle an excess of progeny.

Comment #76: TheMadChild  on  02/10  at  12:17 AM

@ TexasKaren,
I agree with you. Suleman sounds no less detached from reality than anyone I normally see on TV. In fact, she seems more in touch with reality than Beck, Robertson, and Bill ORLY.

Comment #77: TheMadChild  on  02/10  at  12:22 AM

It’s only a semi-related discussion, but there is a point at which an employer, no matter how well they reward you financially, is exploiting you to your harm.  At 60 hours a week, you’re likely not eating well, you’re not getting enough sunshine or exercise, you have no non-work life. Lack of sleep and bad diet has long term effects on anyone, not to mention stress, not to mention loneliness and damage to non-work relationships.

Having worked a physically demanding summer job at a greenhouse in excess of 65 hours per week at the age of 19, I can tell you… 60 hours/week is unreasonable unless you absolutely have no other option or you have a lower-stress job that you happen to be very passionate about. Kids or no kids. Even the greenhouse job, which I loved and was very good at, paid good money, etc… was exploiting my hard work and expected peak performance even past the point of exhaustion. Realistically, you can’t keep that kind of pace up for long… it catches up to you in the form of ulcers, high blood pressure, or in my case: dehydration, terrible sunburns regardless of sunblock/protective clothing, and bad heat exhaustion that let me do absolutely nothing but sleep for two days in a sixty-degree room while chugging down 5 liters of gatorade and water.

Comment #78: TheMadChild  on  02/10  at  12:32 AM

I will not have babies until I can give birth to a litter of kittens.  Just like in the picture.
kitten parade on 02/09 at 09:13 AM

See the third season Dr Who episode, “Gridlock,” then!

Comment #79: Mark Foxwell  on  02/10  at  12:47 AM

re: octuplets

This one has me really bothered on several levels. 

First and foremost, WTF was any doctor thinking?  Implanting 6 embryos is TWICE the accepted standard.  Add to that the fact that she had already carried sextuplets and had known issues with back problems and I have to wonder about the doctor’s ethics. Unless, of course, he actually wanted to kill or cripple her.

Second, I know this is just my own personal opinion and just like assholes, everyone has one.  But I can’t help but think that those two shows (John and Kate plus 8, and the other family I can’t recall with the 8 or 10 children, all multiples) somehow influenced this event.  Particularly when headlines are screaming “octuplet mom wants 2 mill for story”  (granted it is the media so take it for what it’s worth)

Not to mention the poor grandparents.  The media is reporting that the entire family lives in a three bedroom home.  The grandparents are divorced but living together to pay for the home and utilities and the grandfather is planning on going back to the Middle East as a translator to earn more money…

Mental illness may well be a factor, (disclaimer, I have not seen the interviews that TheMadChild refers to so I can only go by what I’ve read)  but it seems a great many warning flags were up and many people (especially healthcare workers who should know the signs) simply turned their heads. 


As for the size of families or not having children at all…I’m the youngest of 13 (including 3 sets of twins)  I know what it means to grow up in an overly large family, but then again we lived on a farm and had lots of room, food and an extended family to help out and the economy wasn’t as dicey as it was today.  My parents also grew up indoctrinated in fundamental religion where “God doesn’t give you more than you can handle” 

My generation?  4 of my brothers had vasectomies at early ages, stating they had no intentions of fathering children.  One sister had twins, One is unable to conceive and I had two then tied the tubes.  Only one of my brothers has a large (5 children) family.  Most of us who had children settled for the 1 to 2 and then quit. 

Is it a culture thing?  A generational thing?  Was being raised an only child really that big of an influence in her decision?  I don’t know if anyone can get/find an honest answer. 

I just wish the best for the 14 children that are involved.

Comment #80: flame821  on  02/10  at  01:06 AM

The Mad Child

Now they must verbally assassinate and torment the metaphorical corpse of a woman’s sense of self for being a single, unemployed mother who can only be described as a madonna, citing “concerns for the children”.

I’m not sure I understand this phrasing.  Are you saying that people who are upset or concerned over this situation feel that single, unemployed women should not be allowed to have children?

If so I have to counter that.  I have no problem with any woman choosing when or if to have children, after all it is her body and her choice.  However this situation is a bit above and beyond that, if it weren’t it wouldn’t be getting quite so much attention. 

I am also unsure as to how questioning the judgment of the woman and her doctor is attacking the woman’s sense of self worth.

If I’ve misunderstood your position, I apologize in advance.  English is not my first language and I don’t always pick up on turns of phrase or sarcasm as quickly as I would like.

Comment #81: flame821  on  02/10  at  01:13 AM

For me, the octuplets thing has nothing to do with racism or sexism.  I was disappointed the first time I heard about it, before I knew anything about the mother’s race, marital status, other children, lack of job, and living situation.  After the wave of high-order multiples a few years ago, fertility specialists changed their procedure to prevent this from happening again.  They set a limit of a maximum of 2 or 3 embryos at a time, and high-order multiples and all the risks that come with them stopped happening.  When I first heard about the octuplets, my first reaction was anger at a mal-practicing doctor.  There is no reason that that many embryos should be implanted in any woman, regardless of her race, marital status, or any other factors.  Even if she had been a married white woman with no other children, it would still be unacceptable to implant that many embryos at a time.

Comment #82: bananacat  on  02/10  at  02:17 AM

Though I’m with you on the obnoxiously nosy questions from gynecologists.  I’m convinced it’s all in the tone, though, and it’s one reason I don’t like seeing a male doctor.  The right kind of GYN can ask me sensitive reproductive health questions like that without sounding like she’s shopping for a brood mare or looking to tattoo the word SLUT on my forehead.

To be fair, my family doctor also delivers babies, and I have no separate OBG. He’s male, and I’m perfectly comfortable with him, all his methods, and how he treats me. Just b/c a doctor is male doesn’t mean you will have these issues.

Other than that, all good.

Comment #83: RacyT  on  02/10  at  05:26 AM

I’m convinced it’s all in the tone, though, and it’s one reason I don’t like seeing a male doctor.  The right kind of GYN can ask me sensitive reproductive health questions like that without sounding like she’s shopping for a brood mare or looking to tattoo the word SLUT on my forehead.

My experience was actually the reverse. For a long time I sought only female GYNs because I wasn’t sure I’d be comfortable with a male. They didn’t listen to me, patronized to me, and generally made me feel like a silly little girl who didn’t know how the world really worked and that one day I would be thrilled to pump out the babies… just as soon as I met the right man!

Then I went to a GYN who was a nice older man. He listened to me, he took me seriously, and then he referred me to another nice older man who… again… listened to me, treated me as an adult when discussing my health with me, and was able to perform my tubal.  Now, I can’t say for sure that this was a strict male/female divide. The women GYNs also happened to be white, and the two male doctors also happened to be people of color. But it was sort of a kick in the head that all of my preconceived notions about how a woman GYN would be more understanding were complete and utter crap.

Comment #84: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/10  at  10:29 AM

Just b/c a doctor is male doesn’t mean you will have these issues.

Oh, I know.  I’m just talking about my personal experience.  My first GYN was a man, and was totally fine.  Then he moved away and I started seeing the (male) doctor who changed my mind against seeing a male doctor anymore.  He managed to make me feel like both a brazen hoor and a brood mare all at the same time.  I switched again to a female doctor who I like quite a bit, mainly because she was young and had a very casual, egalitarian style.  I felt more like she was a friend than an authority figure, which is a pretty high compliment for someone I show my cervix twice a year. 

On the other hand, another friend of mine told me recently that at her last well-woman appointment, her female GYN basically ordered her to find a husband and start spitting out sprog immediately.  So obviously it’s not nearly so simple.  But I’ve had a much better track record with female doctors than I have with male doctors, so I personally choose a woman wherever possible—which is much easier considering that I live in a huge city and have dozens of doctors to choose from.

Comment #85: The Opoponax  on  02/10  at  12:38 PM

60 hours/week is unreasonable unless you absolutely have no other option or you have a lower-stress job that you happen to be very passionate about.

Depends on the job.

For instance, any many remote mines the normal schedule is 2 weeks in/2 weeks out.  For those two weeks in, many of the workers will be on 12 hour shifts for those 14 days (so 84 hour weeks).  It sounds brutal, but when you’re in the Arctic or Subarctic in December at a remote camp there’s not a whole lot else to do, and they don’t have to worry about the kids or housework or cooking and the like taking up their non-working hours.  And then, of course, they’ve got two weeks off.

Comment #86: KeithM  on  02/10  at  02:43 PM

Because I think Suleman looks so much like Angelina Jolie, I have to ask… how come an unemployed single mom is considered inethical for having 14 children (attention/nurture deficit), but Quiverfull moms or even focused career moms are not?

That’s really not the opinion of the vast majority of people I know.
We’re all horrified about the Duggars, John & Kate, etc.
But then we all give a care about overpopulation and the impact humans have on earth. And, oh yeah, a great many of us are mixed race and something other than white. So are we reverse racists for also disporoving of Suleman?

Suleman is rational and calm in the interviews I’ve seen of her…

Ummm- I wouldn’t say that. I would characterize her demeanor as super creepy- almost on the verge of freaking out with crazy lady eyes and a bizarre overly plastic surgery made over face. Every answer she gives- especially trying to “defend” the newer babies is just simmering with anger-  of the “WHY am I being asked this? OMG.” type.
She’s a cheerleader type gone off the rails IMHO. Oh and the nails. Seriously.
Who maintains a manicure like that with 14 kids? Someone who foists a lot of the work on her mother that’s who.

Comment #87: Danica Lefse Queen  on  02/10  at  06:33 PM

(I guess the Duggars achieved it by removing Michelle Duggar’s personality and will from the equation.)

And by pressing their elder daughters into involuntary servitude.

As to the public reaction to Suleman, and how it differs from that garnered by the Duggars and Jon & Kate, the sexism and racism are off the charts.  I must cop to some visceral anger toward Nadya, but I also feel it toward all parents of large broods in this country, in this day and age. 

I’m not sure how to phrase in a way that it won’t get me flamed but here goes:  I don’t totally buy the “choice” frame where having a kajillion babies, or even one or two for that matter, is viewed as equivalent to the choice to get an abortion or use contraception.  Yes, it’s totally “her body - her choice” where preventing and terminating pregnancy is concerned but I’ve always felt that my personal rights end where another’s begin.  If I have an abortion I am making a personal decision that effects only me (unless you believe that a fetus is a human with rights, which I don’t).  If I bring that pregnancy to term I am making a decision that affects other people, not the least of whom is the child I am bringing into the world.  That is not to denigrate that choice, nor am I suggesting any kind of government policy to regulate how many children women can have or who can have them.  I realize that statement opens up all manner of cans of worms as regards race, socio-economic disparity, not to mention MRA and wingnut bullshit, which is probably why so many feminists have adopted the All Reproductive Choices Are Equal And Ethically Neutral stance.  But they’re clearly not. 

And Amanda, I’m really struggling with the idea that I’m only supposed to feel compassion for Suleman.  I feel sorry as hell for her children but for her, not so much.  It may be because she very much reminds me of a family member of mine who was mentally ill, but at the same time capable of being self-aware and incredibly manipulative.

Comment #88: DonnaDiva  on  02/10  at  06:54 PM
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