Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: The Revolution Takes To The Comfortable Chain Restaurants Just Off The Streets Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “Fact-Checking And Self-Mocking With iTunes” Edition

Dangerous young women who know themselves

Feminism

Exercises in how surfing blogs can, in itself, generate some ideas. Jessica put up the text of her speech on how the so-called “hook-up culture” is not the horror story it’s made out to be, M. LeBlanc wrote about her first major relationship that had a withholding affection/sexual assault cycle, and Jezebel posted this appalling picture from Details magazine:

This post, I hope, can be some synthesis.  M’s assured me that she wants to hash out some of the issues raised in her very personal post, and so I’d like to start with hers.  She had a real click moment at a reading of Yes Means Yes, and how it made her realize that a whole lot of non-consenting sex she’d been having in her youth with her first boyfriend was a form of rape.

You see, a few years after me and my first love, from Texas, got together, the sex dropped off precipitously. My boyfriend was very attractive to me, and I was constantly horny. I wanted to have boring sex, kinky sex, and everything in between. But he withheld. He withheld sex and most forms of physical affection from me until it made me crazy. I don’t know why he did it. But it became a constant form of negotiation, with me trying to get affection and sex, and him finding all kinds of reasons to decline. The nascent body-acceptance that I had formed before went off a cliff.

And then one night, after months of this, I awoke in the middle of the night to find him rubbing up against me with a hard-on. I was in that bizarre zone between wake and sleep, where everything seemed blurry and confused and it was difficult to identify reality. And before I could get out of that in-between zone, he was on top of me and penetrating me. I, of course, was not wet, having just been asleep, and not otherwise aroused. But this was what I wanted. I wanted sex and physical closeness so badly—how could I say no? Even in my diminished state, a “take-it-while-I-can-get-it” mentality took over, and I did not protest. I winced in a little pain. After he was done he kissed me and went back to sleep. I was left lying there, confused, upset. What about me? I was just starting to get aroused at the very end of the thing, and now, what was I supposed to do?

I went to the living room and cried my eyes out.


Stuff like this causes the inevitable hostilities that shoot up between the Nice Guys® of the internets and women, because I think a whole lot of men have done shit like this, or worry that they could slip into such a sexual fetish.  Despite this genuine risk, I’m going to go ahead and talk about this emotional abuse without tip-toeing around the feelings of those who don’t want to be made uncomfortable about the routine objectification of women and the obvious damage it does.  I don’t know the particulars of M.‘s former relationship, and I don’t think our few exchanges on the issue really educated me about the depths of it.  But she does say, “It is extremely hard to tell this story publicly, but I think it is vital to expanding the dialogue about rape. Because I haven’t heard a story like this before, and I’m not so self-absorbed to think that I must be the only one,” and I’m happy to oblige.  Because while this particular dysfunction is a new one to me, I recognized the pattern in my own life in a lot of relationships I’ve seen, particularly between young men and women.  The dramatically plummeting self-esteem in her, the increasingly erratic and abusive behavior in him, his shame, her fear, and ultimately the way it drags on way too long until someone ends it, and hopefully both learned something and go forward with less evil in their hearts and/or vulnerabilities to this sort of thing.  My situation was a lot like hers—-boyfriend would go through bouts of withholding affection, and late in the relationship, slapping me when we argued—-and I didn’t really know how to leave, because young women in these sort of deep, monogamous relationships haven’t had enough time to form without them.  Or, more bluntly put, I didn’t know who I was without him, since we’d spent our formative years together.  (This is why patriarchs love young marriage.)  He didn’t know what to do with me, because he loved me, but he also (he admitted, after we broke up) was deeply ashamed to have a girlfriend, which is experienced by a lot of men that age as emasculating, particularly if they have a bunch of ne’er-do-well single male friends like he did. 

If her situation was like mine, and there’s a strong chance that there was, then yeah, his behavior makes a lot of sense.  Being in love is being vulnerable, feminine really.  That’s why movies about falling in love are deemed “chick flicks”, after all.  But putting yourself in that vulnerable position is strongly discouraged by other men, pop culture, you name it.  As Details magazine will have you know, women are for fucking and using as furniture, then tossing out as garbage.  I think once men get a little older, the “women are nothing but garbage” messages relax a little, and their male friends start settling down, and it becomes easier.  But at the height of Dude culture, it’s hard.  Their love for their girlfriends comes in direct conflict with cultural messages about how women are dirt.  The solution, for a lot of young men, is to dominate their girlfriends.  In fact, this cultural phenomenon is so well-known that the Rolling Stones wrote a song about the dynamic that immediately makes sense to most listeners.

Its down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what shes told
Down to me, the change has come
Shes under my thumb
Ah, ah, say its alright

Under my thumb
A siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
Shes the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

Of course, in our more feminist era, guys who get into this mindset feel more torn about it for sure.  But I think it’s still the same dynamic.  And it’s at its strongest for a lot of people in their youth, for the reasons I outlined. Which brings me to Jessica’s defense of young women in college who have hook-ups.  Jessica makes the point, which is an important one to remember, is that the hand-wringing over hook-ups is a Trojan horse to smuggle in other ideas about what young women should be doing in their college years, and guess what?  Getting educated is not at the top of the list.

Laura Sessions Stepp, who wrote Unhooked, writes that young women don’t belong in bars, “that’s a guy thing,” and that they should consider baking cookies to impress men. (Not that there’s anything wrong with baking cookies, I’m a big fan myself, but I think you see where this is going…)

Miriam Grosmman advocates that young women not wait long to get married and get pregnant - in fact both authors seem to assume that the main goal of women in college isn’t academics or finding themselves, or even having fun - but instead, finding a husband.

Again, nothing wrong with getting married and having babies, but when you assume that should be the main goal of young women in college - something is amiss.

I’d say that it’s obvious that the real problem is that hooking up allows women to be sexual and single at the same time, to have sex without having to drop out because they got pregnant or married, or move somewhere they don’t want for a boyfriend, or abandon their career to put some guy through medical school.  People in a snit over casual sex outline all these dangers for young women—-you’re a slut so you’ll be rape bait,* you’ll get STDs, no one will love you, but the one they dwell on the most is the grave danger of hurt feelings.  They can’t imagine that women sleep with men just to do it, but think that every single woman falls madly in love with every guy she has sex with, and therefore the result of every hook-up is a girl waiting by the phone heartbroken.  I’ll allow that this happens sometimes (and sometimes men wait sadly, which goes unacknowledged).  It’s not unknown to have a crush on someone not into you, have sex with them hoping they’ll change their mind, and then getting shot down.  And if you have a constant problem with this, I think you maybe should go to therapy and hash it out. 

What these women pushing this line fail to realize is that their supposed solutions have all sorts of dangers, too, and some of them are a lot more serious than sitting by a phone heartbroken—-rape happens in monogamous relationships (and it’s rarely called that), and you also run the risk of domestic violence.  Depending on your anti-feminist twit, the solution is either to date and withhold sex until marriage, or date and withhold sex until you have him swearing up and down he’s your real boyfriend, and that at least a year or six months or whatever has passed.  What they fail to acknowledge is that these kind of relationships are no protection against sitting by the phone heartbroken.  Believe someone who’s been through it—-when a guy doesn’t call when he said he would and you’ve been dating for years, it hurts one million times worse than if someone didn’t call you after you slept with him on the first date.  I’ve done it both ways, and the latter is a lot easier to get past, even if you had a mega-crush.  Going through the process of being put under someone’s thumb, which is all too common in the relationships that anti-feminists tout as cure-alls, does more damage to your self-esteem.  Living with or marrying someone who turns ice cold in order to control you by lowering your self-esteem is a major risk factor for depression.  The worst part about it is that once you invest in a person, you can’t even talk about your problems as much with friends, because it feels like a betrayal.  If a crush blows you off, your friends can take you out for a drink and let you whine until you’re joking.  If you’re dying inside because you’re in a relationship you can’t get out of for whatever mental block reasons, but that is draining you, you have very little recourse because now it’s airing dirty laundry.

The one thing I think really helps build women up so they can get out of bad or abusive relationships is being single for awhile.  It’s not the magic bullet, but living by yourself and realizing that you are a full human being without a man to define you means that a major obstacle (who am I without him?) to leaving bad relationships is mitigated.  I’m finally in a happy, healthy relationship, and the irony is that this is also a time when I know that if I had to leave, I could easily do so.  But then again, maybe that’s the catch-22 of healthy relationships—-it’s easier to have them if both people involved are find on their own.  I look at a lot of women I know who spent their college years mainly single, and I think having the time to define themselves away from deep attachments to young men who have the near-inevitable masculinity issues that come with growing up in this culture gave them a basis that made going forward with relationships much easier, since they knew who they were and didn’t get so lost in them.

*I’ve never seen a shred of evidence that rapists take your actual number into consideration when selecting a victim.  They may choose women that do things juries don’t approve of, like going out drinking, but it’s most likely that most rapists can’t even know your number before they rape you.  So this myth is nonsensical as well as offensive.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:38 PM • (72) Comments

Sorry for off topic. MSNBC’s David Shuster called for Obama to start a war with Zimbabwe today. Expect more saber rattling in the librul media soon. Back to your regularly scheduled patriarchy.

Comment #1: asdf  on  02/20  at  10:13 PM

A lot of your points, especially in the latter half, really ring true to me as a dood. And some of what I know about some of my guy friends’ relationships.

I dunno… something about sex-positive gender equality has a lot of appeal.

I’ve always had trouble defining my identity without a chick. And now, living alone at 25 after a 6 year relationship… I’m learning things about myself and finding confidence that is really satisfying.

Thanks for the posts, Amanda. And especially the link to LeBlanc.

Comment #2: humanadverb  on  02/20  at  10:14 PM

As someone who has misbehaved badly in my past (who hasn’t? hopefully most people, but I’m not optimistic,) I have to say that the absolute worst things happen in times when two people are unable to admit to being attracted to each other and when two people can’t admit that they are no longer attracted to each other.  In the first, you can get fucked up assumptions regarding consent.  And in the second, you get passive-aggressive behavior that borders on and sometimes becomes abuse.  And those are the messed up relationships where people are trying in some half-assed, selfish way to show they care or cared.  When I look at my mistaken and bad relationships, the pattern is usually one where eventually I get frustrated with someone, she tries for too long to be nice, I get more frustrated, her obliviousness pisses me off, but neither of us want to break it off and be the bad guy.  Looking back from my incredibly advanced years (this is sarcasm,) I have to say that pride and cowardice go hand in hand much better than two incompatable people ever do.

As for the hook-up culture, the potential problem is and always will be the desire on someone’s part to have it mean much more.  But that’s something that’s just as true of all types of relationships, even covenant marriage.  Your comment regarding the value of being single at times is very true.  To really enjoy relationships, you should have an idea of your self.  Choosing some level of dependence can only be done if that’s an actual choice.  Needy people suck to be around.  Trust me, I was that guy for too many years.  Still am on occasion.  And only when I’m happy with myself am I ready to be in a healthy relationship.

Comment #3: 3letterjon  on  02/20  at  10:26 PM

Awesome post Amanda. And I’d just like to mention that Laura Sessions Stepp can kiss my single, bar-going, sex-having, non-cookie-baking ass.

Comment #4: RacyT  on  02/20  at  10:30 PM

The only bars that I’ve gone to that have been “guy things” were the ones I visited in Philly’s gayborhood.  It was a friend’s 21st, and it was a lot of fun.  Anyway, great post, but that part really jumped out at me as making No Goddamn Sense.

Comment #5: themann1086  on  02/20  at  10:51 PM

I always wondered what you would say about Under My Thumb.  It’s pretty clear and to the (misogynist) point.

How about (what I understand) is a fairly nasty piece of work clothed in beautiful music, Norwegian Wood.  What would Amanda’s take be?...

(This should be on topic because it’s about hooking up…)

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  10:57 PM

themann… yeah, my favorite bar on the planet is a dyke bar. Good atmosphere, nice people, zero sexual tension.

Comment #7: humanadverb  on  02/20  at  11:04 PM

With my first ex, I was so inexperienced with dealing with the opposite gender that while I felt ready for sex, soon it began to feel like that was all our relationship was held together by. But it was incredibly difficult to leave, because it’s not like we fought a lot or anything.

Comment #8: Jha  on  02/20  at  11:05 PM

Yep. I’m proud to say I never went down that road, but it was certainly there and well traveled, I might add.  Never seen it described quite so succinctly and might I say vividly.  Makes me feel very. very, fortunate to have missed, dodged or been spared that road.  Life is short, it would be a shame to have to look back on a life spent rendering life so meaningless and demeaning of human life.

Comment #9: knowdoubt  on  02/20  at  11:17 PM

Women like Stepp are the female corollary of the Nice Guy.  “I followed the ruuuuuuules so I’m supposed to be rewarded with a cookie, not those SLUTS!  I want my cookie!  Waaaah!!”

Comment #10: DonnaDiva  on  02/20  at  11:24 PM

DonnaDiva,

Rules not based on mutual respect tend to lead to that, don’t they?

Comment #11: 3letterjon  on  02/20  at  11:30 PM

Awesomely true with awesomeness. The alignment of the get-married-now/stop-hooking-up/contraception-is-promiscuity/how-to-please-your-man/college-are-bad forces in our culture is so strong and vocal, it makes me hope this particular insurgency is in its last throes. Maybe smart, sensible young women will in fact overwhelm them with their scary ladybrains and they’ll all die off within a generation. Of course, liberals “hate babies” and can’t reproduce, so, this may be the end of our species… which makes me think, hey, wouldn’t it be great to be in college and hook up instead of staying tied down during humanity’s last generation?

Comment #12: serena kitt  on  02/20  at  11:47 PM

“The one thing I think really helps build women up so they can get out of bad or abusive relationships is being single for awhile.  It’s not the magic bullet, but living by yourself and realizing that you are a full human being without a man to define you means that a major obstacle (who am I without him?) to leaving bad relationships is mitigated.  I’m finally in a happy, healthy relationship, and the irony is that this is also a time when I know that if I had to leave, I could easily do so.  But then again, maybe that’s the catch-22 of healthy relationships—-it’s easier to have them if both people involved are find on their own.  I look at a lot of women I know who spent their college years mainly single, and I think having the time to define themselves away from deep attachments to young men who have the near-inevitable masculinity issues that come with growing up in this culture gave them a basis that made going forward with relationships much easier, since they knew who they were and didn’t get so lost in them. “

this. this. this eleventy billion times over.
thank you, amanda, for articulating exactly what i feel so well.  i swear this blog keeps me off the edge of a cliff on a near-daily basis, but especially with posts like this.  i feel like i’m fighting a losing battle with some of my closest friends over this very issue and no one ever listens to me, but i know that it’s not easy to take good advice, you just have to learn it for yourself as i did, but i try anyway, because i can’t stand to watch my wonderful, smart, funny, beautiful female friends go through life like this.

Comment #13: chareth cutestory  on  02/21  at  12:39 AM

Depending on your anti-feminist twit, the solution is either to date and withhold sex until marriage, or date and withhold sex until you have him swearing up and down he’s your real boyfriend, and that at least a year or six months or whatever has passed.

The funny thing is that the one guy I genuinely tried the latter tactic with, my first college boyfriend who I refused to have sex with until several months into the relationship after I made him admit that he really and truly was my exclusive boyfriend, was the abusive bag of douche who sexually assaulted me throughout our relationship.

All the hookups and short term flings that came after I got away from him?  Pretty much pain free.

Comment #14: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  01:14 AM

As a Type I diabetic, I’ll take fucking over cookies any day of the week.

// Resist the pudgy, sticky, sugar-coated death grip of right-wing America!


I think I’m fairly lucky that at the age of 26, my longest relationship was 3 years, half of which we were two states apart. Sure, I can function independently, but I like having other people around.

Comment #15: Indy  on  02/21  at  01:26 AM

I look at a lot of women I know who spent their college years mainly single, and I think having the time to define themselves away from deep attachments to young men who have the near-inevitable masculinity issues that come with growing up in this culture gave them a basis that made going forward with relationships much easier, since they knew who they were and didn’t get so lost in them.

I guess that’s what happened to me.  I was in the military from the time I was 18 to 28.  I had a few relationships (including a few that bordered on abusive but I got out of them) but for the most part I was a free agent.  I love my current b/f dearly, but I don’t NEED him to complete me.  Which isn’t to say that I wouldn’t miss him terribly if we were to part.  But I don’t identify myself by my relationship to him, and I can’t imagine having to.

Comment #16: DonnaDiva  on  02/21  at  02:04 AM

‘Women like Stepp are the female corollary of the Nice Guy.  “I followed the ruuuuuuules so I’m supposed to be rewarded with a cookie, not those SLUTS!  I want my cookie!  Waaaah!!”’

Very true, except that the women are a shade more pathetic.  Nice Guys know they’re full of crap and they’re aware that they’ve adopted a schtick for their own benefit.  Which isn’t to say that the Nice Guy Routine does in fact reliably work to further the interests of Nice Guys; often it doesn’t.  (Nice Guys, who aren’t necessarily bad fellows but who also aren’t necessarily fast learners, will, as most of us realize, often interpret the failure of The Nice Guy Plan as a failure on the part of the woman The Plan was intended to reel in.  Oh well.  Who knows.)

It’s not like Nice Guys fall for their own line.  They don’t always confuse themselves with the character they’re playing.  And what’s more, they don’t commonly impute to the strategy they’ve embraced any sort of divine fitness, the result being that they don’t regard it as being written on the hills and inscribed upon the waters that whatever game they’re playing has to end in a win for themselves.  But women, even middle-aged potwollopers who’ve been bitten tolerably hard, are unnervingly apt to retain a childlike faith which tells them that if only are Good, eventually they’ll be compensated with a Reward.  Heaven alone could testify as to why women see things this way, but many of us do; I confess that I myself am far from immune to the charms of this line of thought.

Comment #17: bekabot  on  02/21  at  02:22 AM

By god, bekabot, I think you are on to something there.  That might be why there’s a spate of anti-feminist organizations making a healthy profit off of shaming women.

Comment #18: DonnaDiva  on  02/21  at  02:38 AM

Yes, we women have a hard time being comfortable with putting ourselves first.

Comment #19: NancyP  on  02/21  at  03:53 AM

And before I could get out of that in-between zone, he was on top of me and penetrating me. I, of course, was not wet, having just been asleep, and not otherwise aroused.

Yuk. Treating a woman—whom you supposedly have affection for—as a masturbatory aid. Alternatively, he hated her and enjoyed expressing his hatred via the nightly rape.

this appalling picture from Details magazine:

I have to ask: Who is their audience? From this linked quote: Patent-leather lace-ups, candy-colored belts, and cotton-canvas tote bags are just a few of the accessories you’ll want to own this spring., Details is a sort of Glamour magazine for men.

Comment #20: Hector B.  on  02/21  at  04:11 AM

When I read something like this, I think us old hippies had a few things right forty years ago. Of course we couldn’t be young forever, but it wasn’t the world’s worst first approximation. That love can be general and sex ought not to be taken too seriously are good working assumptions.

Perhaps our most useful insight was that trying to be respectable is debilitating, while not being respectable can be downright liberating. If you don’t feel like laughing at yourself most of the time, you may have room for improvement.

Comment #21: bad Jim  on  02/21  at  06:38 AM

This is an absolutely fantastic post.

I would like, however, to post my own experience contradicting your footnote:

“I’ve never seen a shred of evidence that rapists take your actual number into consideration when selecting a victim. “

I have seen such evidence,  or at least I believe I have.  All throughout university it was well known having sex with multiple men, not all of whom I was dating, and I think it made me a more acceptable target for the two rapes, one attempted rape, and numerous times men coerced me sexually in various ways.  Women who have a lot of random sex are considered less valuable as well as less credible, and it’s thought that raping us doesn’t *really* count as rape.  After all, we give it up so easily we couldn’t possibly think we have the right to control our own sexuality.  Also, certain men can get very, very angry when the girl who sleeps with “everybody” rejects them.

Also, I learned not to share that I am in a non-monogamous relationship.  If my boyfriend/husband doesn’t own my sexuality, it must be free for all comers, right?  Without either the excuse that I’m virtuous or that I’m faithful, the only reason I’m not sleeping with the Nice Guy is that I don’t want to, and that’s very, very hurtful and offensive and how could I do that to him.

Of course, while Laura Sessions Stepp et al agree with the rapists that I am a less valuable human being, and that my behaviour invites everything on the spectrum from creepiness to rape, I tend to put the responsibility for horrible behaviour elsewhere.

Comment #22: Dr. Confused  on  02/21  at  07:44 AM

Dr. Confused, I agree with you.  There are rapes where the notion of consent isn’t even of the slightest consideration for the rapist, and there are rapes where consent is in a fuzzier realm.  Women who are willing to dwell outside the traditional “taken” or “available” models that dictates some people’s thinking are more likely to get into situations with people who misinterpret anything less than a “no” as a “go ahead.”  There may or may not be a grey area for what is rape, but there certainly is a grey area for the concept of consent.  Rapists and scolds and their apologists take that to the bank.

Comment #23: 3letterjon  on  02/21  at  09:53 AM

If a guy cannot love and value people the “Dude culture” tells him he shouldn’t, then he is not sufficiently smart, independent-minded, and independently evaluative of norms to be a worthwhile partner.

Comment #24: Luke  on  02/21  at  10:51 AM

bad Jim, General love for people makes it hard to start pointless wars and prime people to be so afraid of each other they surrender their dignity to the state. So you can see why that had to go.

Comment #25: Luke  on  02/21  at  10:52 AM

“I think a whole lot of men have done shit like this, or worry that they could slip into such a sexual fetish.”

You mean withholding sex until the partner lets her (or his) guard down for exploitation? Sounds pretty complicated and time consuming to accomplish with premeditation. I only mention this because withholding due to true emotional distress and lack of interest could easily be confused with malicious withholding.

Comment #26: MarkusR  on  02/21  at  12:32 PM

I have to ask: Who is their audience?

Well, looking at the clothes in the photo above, I can see some more fashion plate oriented men here in NYC wearing at least some of that stuff. 

On the other hand, fashion spreads in women’s magazines are never for the purpose of actually showing women the sorts of clothes they ought to wear—most of the clothes are out of the price ranges of all but the wealthiest women (and those sorts of women are unlikely to take their sartorial cues from fashion spreads in Glamour or Allure), and they also tend to be pretty unrealistic as to clothing you could actually wear in your everyday life. 

I’m not really sure what the function of a fashion spread in a middlebrow glossy really is.  And, personally, I’m not sure people who work in magazine publishing could tell us, either.

Comment #27: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  12:41 PM

You mean withholding sex until the partner lets her (or his) guard down for exploitation? Sounds pretty complicated and time consuming to accomplish with premeditation. I only mention this because withholding due to true emotional distress and lack of interest could easily be confused with malicious withholding.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that the issue at hand is that Boyfriend X deliberately created this situation with cruel and sadistic intent. 

It doesn’t matter what Boyfriend’s intent was, or whether he had any sense of what he was doing at all.  Raping your girlfriend in her sleep is still wrong, and withholding affection to the point where she accepts rape as “get it while you can” affection is still abusive. 

Our culture paints this picture of domestic abuse wherein the abusers are always sociopaths who are deliberately and maliciously weaving a web of soul-crushing hatred.  And I’m sure those people exist—the boyfriend who abused me was practically by the book in terms of that checklist of potentially abusive behaviors you sometimes see. 

But you don’t have to be a depraved psycho to abuse someone.  You can create that dynamic without even knowing that you’re doing it.  It sucks, but it’s true.  And that’s why it’s important to communicate well with your partner, and also why it’s important that people be able to leave a relationship when it goes bad. 

Personally I’m not even sure that my Depraved Psycho abusive boyfriend ever really thought, “Ooooh, I should find a girl with low self-esteem, ruin her ties to friends and family, isolate her all to myself, and systematically break her as a human being…  Sounds fun!”  I’m sure he had his reasons for what he was doin (or maybe didn’t even notice how things affected me).  But at the end of the day, it was still an abusive relationship I had to get out of.

Comment #28: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  12:53 PM

Hector, the younger generation of straight men isn’t nearly as afraid that liking clothes makes you GHEY.  But it’s no matter—-this picture is just one of a sea of millions upon millions of images, songs, shows, etc., telling young men that their masculinity depends on believing women are crap.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/21  at  01:57 PM

Luke, you say that like it’s not the point of the post, like you’re instructing me, instead of echoing what I said.

Anyway, of course assholes don’t deserve women’s devotion.  And the hook-up culture strikes me as evidence that they’re not getting it.  Anti-feminists want to bring back a world where women are so desperate to be coupled, they’ll put up with anything.

That said, you make it seem easy to spot the assholes.  No, it takes experience for a lot of women.  (Guys who talk down to women on a routine basis are one of the groups you learn to avoid early.) It’s not like I was so stupid as to ever date frat daddies.  But pro-feminist hipsters who vote Democrat are not immune to the incessant, non-stop message that women are crap, and if you don’t agree, you’re not a man.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/21  at  02:01 PM

Dr. Confused, a rapist can know what a woman’s *rumored* sexual activity is.  In your case, the rumors correlated to reality.  But many so-called sluts are actually virgins.  So while the rumors about someone’s sexual activity may influence how rapists think, I don’t think her actual sexual activity could.  If that makes sense.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/21  at  02:06 PM

Thanks for posting this, Amanda, and thanks to M. LeBlanc for sharing her experience. One facet that really horrifies me is how this particular kind of rape lines up contextually with familial child molestation. Both are rape, of course. But the circumstances- typically at night, while the victim is sleeping, and in bed, a physical space they have every reason to consider safe, being assaulted by someone that ostensibly cares for/loves them - can’t NOT call to mind daddy/Mom’s boyfriend/grandpa/whatever slipping into a child’s bed to abuse them.

How can a man who does this NOT think to himself, if not “I am raping” (because Rape Is Bad), but at the very least “I am molesting this woman”? 

I can’t pin down exactly what I’m trying to say- maybe a rapist’s mind is a rapist’s mind. Does anyone have any input?

Comment #32: mir  on  02/21  at  02:17 PM

How can a man who does this NOT think to himself, if not “I am raping” (because Rape Is Bad), but at the very least “I am molesting this woman”? 

In the sense of M. LeBlanc’s situation (a situation I’ve somewhat been in before), I think it’s muddied a little by the fact that this is, presumably, their shared bed. 

It’s sort of seen as axiomatic that:

A) WHEREAS they are a cohabitating couple; and

B) WHEREAS cohabitating couples tend to have consensual sex in their shared bed; and

C) WHEREAS cohabitating couples have an understanding that they are attracted to each other and often want to have sex with each other;

THEREFORE: All sex that takes place between cohabitating couples in their shared bed is obviously healthy and consensual sex.

That’s a leap that isn’t customarily made between older male authority figures and young children. 

And, less facetiously, it can be sort of a grey area.  I have had consensual sex virtually in my sleep before.  Though in that situation, verbal consent was established - which is almost as gratifying as being so in tune with someone that you can fuck in your sleep.  I have also woken up to find a casual hookup groping me and grinding against me, which was a lot creepier, but in my opinion not entirely outside the realm of appropriateness.

Comment #33: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  02:36 PM

This was a beautiful post for such an ugly picture. I only wish that people could see that telling women not to go walking alone at night or to carry pepper spray/learn self-defense aren’t the only things that will stop rape. First the culture has to change how men view women. Not as a vagina with legs that belongs to them, but as a human being with needs and wants and aspirations.

I’m in college now and I haven’t dated anyone yet. Sometimes I’ve thought that it’s kind of sad I didn’t date anyone in high school, but I think back on how much personal growth and self-development I went through in school, and I don’t know if a relationship would have changed that. I think I’m at the point now where I know myself well enough as a person and have enough self-esteem to be able to enjoy a relationship, but I also want to focus on my schoolwork and just enjoying myself in college. If a relationship happens, it happens. I actually had the opportunity to date someone, but he just gave me bad vibes, and I’m of the opinion that if my instincts are telling me something I’d better listen to them.

My best friend and her boyfriend have dated since high school, but they seem to be very close and mutually supportive. And they go to different colleges in different states. I think it’s true that many people probably should wait a bit to date. If you don’t know who you are and what you want from life outside of relationships, then being with someone probably will only end up being complicated.

It’s so, so true that rape takes on many different forms. It’s not just stranger in the bushes on a dark night (and that’s probably fairly rare anyway). It can happen in the context of a monogamous relationship or marriage. But those types aren’t shown in the media as much, and young women may not even know that what is happening to them is rape because they aren’t informed about it.

I take some time trusting people, because I’ve seen people close to me end up in abusive situations with their partners, and I don’t want that to happen to me. So I’d have to really believe that a guy respected me and valued me as a person before I was comfortable dating. It might make it tougher to get a boyfriend, but I think I’d be happier in the end for having higher standards.

And if I saw any sign of abuse happening, even if I thought I was crazy about him, hopefully I would have the courage to end the relationship. In some ways it’s kind of scary, but I do want to experience fulfilling relationships despite those risks.

Comment #34: ArtOfMe  on  02/21  at  02:40 PM

THEREFORE: All sex that takes place between cohabitating couples in their shared bed is obviously healthy and consensual sex.

Which is why I have to ask my wife consent before she takes her Ambien. Just saying, I don’t know what ‘typical’ date rape drugs are made of, but Ambien makes you do things than you 1) wouldn’t do normally and 2) don’t remember in the morning. I had to bring this up with my wife after the first time we had Ambien sex. Not to diverge too much, but it can get a bit scary for even the sober one.

Comment #35: MarkusR  on  02/21  at  02:48 PM

I think there’s another angle to the phenomenon described by “M”, of the man who withholds sex from a sexually active woman, then forces it on her when she doesn’t want it. A lot of men are really unnerved by sexually empowered women (who they call “demanding”) and they use these kinds of tactics (with or without the non-consensual part M describes) to regain control of the woman’s sexuality. It’s not fear of feminisation, it’s plain old misogyny.

Comment #36: flashheart  on  02/21  at  02:51 PM

Amanda, I do realize that treating women as furniture is not limited to the editors/readers of Details magazine. Sorry.

not afraid that liking clothes makes you GHEY.

I’m just generalizing based on my circle of acquaintance. None of my male friends have mentioned any particular desire to accessorize with patent-leather lace-ups, candy-colored belts, or cotton-canvas tote bags this spring. Here, cotton canvas tote bag ownership is associated with donors to public television, who, when they do step out of their Volvos, do not seem particularly fashion-forward. But I will pay closer attention the next time I go to Whole Foods.

I can see big city dwellers caring about what they wear, because that signals their status to passers-by.  But what of the men of, say, Austin?

Comment #37: Hector B.  on  02/21  at  02:54 PM

A lot of men are really unnerved by sexually empowered women (who they call “demanding”) and they use these kinds of tactics (with or without the non-consensual part M describes) to regain control of the woman’s sexuality. It’s not fear of feminisation, it’s plain old misogyny.

This is something that I wondered about the time I woke up to find my casual hookup grinding against me, and part of what contributed to the creep factor for me.  He generally didn’t seem terribly comfortable with the idea that I was, to use your phrase, sexually empowered, or to use his, “very assertive”.  And so, yeah, I did wonder if that particular way of initiating sex was sort of an attempt to take the reins or feel more in control.

Comment #38: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  03:03 PM

one of my male friends have mentioned any particular desire to accessorize with patent-leather lace-ups, candy-colored belts, or cotton-canvas tote bags this spring.

I think you’re setting too much store by the copy.  Which, it being a glossy magazine, is apt to be a little overblown. 

Looking at the actual items in the picture, while the bags are a bit much (I haven’t even seen dandified Chelsea Boys carrying anything that flamboyant), the sunglasses, belts, and shoes are definitely within the realm of things I could imagine men wearing.  Very fashion-forward men, sure, but again, in women’s magazines these sorts of things aren’t put into the magazine with the intention that women will buy and wear them.  Compared to similar spreads in women’s magazines, all the accessories in the photo seem surprisingly wearable.  Except the bags, of course.

Comment #39: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  03:08 PM

It is creeping me out that I am able to look at that photo and see the clothes without really noticing the woman, btw.

Comment #40: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  03:10 PM

And before I could get out of that in-between zone, he was on top of me and penetrating me. I, of course, was not wet, having just been asleep, and not otherwise aroused. But this was what I wanted. I wanted sex and physical closeness so badly—how could I say no? Even in my diminished state, a “take-it-while-I-can-get-it” mentality took over, and I did not protest. I winced in a little pain. After he was done he kissed me and went back to sleep. I was left lying there, confused, upset. What about me? I was just starting to get aroused at the very end of the thing, and now, what was I supposed to do?

Well, I’ll tell you what I did.  I divorced his sorry, pathetic ass.  This is also how I got pregnant, as the ex, of course, never took the time to put my diaphragm in beforehand.  Hey - he wanted kids and I was being resistant, so who could blame him for “exercising his manly rights with the little woman” while said little woman was asleep?  Fucking jackass.

Comment #41: kac90b  on  02/21  at  03:28 PM

“I think there’s another angle to the phenomenon described by “M”, of the man who withholds sex from a sexually active woman, then forces it on her when she doesn’t want it. A lot of men are really unnerved by sexually empowered women (who they call “demanding”) and they use these kinds of tactics (with or without the non-consensual part M describes) to regain control of the woman’s sexuality.”

As someone who this has happened to, in retrospect that’s exactly what was going on. He was my first partner and really didn’t like it when I discovered I had a much higher sex drive than him.

Comment #42: Jane Tweed  on  02/21  at  03:40 PM

For a guy who’s been brought up in the patriarchy, a sexually assertive significant other can be pretty terrifying. First, of course, it completely screws up the predator-prey thing, so that he doesn’t really know how to act when he starts pursuing and she pursues right back at him. Second, it raises the horrible spectre of what might happen if she’s in the mood and he’s not (because part of the patriarchal myth is that men always want sex, except perhaps when the woman in question disgusts them somehow, and even then). He just knows that she’s going to laugh at him and tell all her friends.

Note, by the way, that maintaining this patriarchal stance pretty much requires the guy to be entirely uncommunicative with his significant other, aka the <strike>strong</strike>loser silent type. (And no, I never felt threatened like that in a relationship, nuh-uh, not at all, not even once. Right.)

Another vote for the separate-people thing. Not only does it lower the stakes for thinking about relationships ending (and thus, ironically, make them less likely to end, or at least end badly), it also helps with a lot of the stupid housekeeping issues.

Comment #43: paul  on  02/21  at  04:25 PM

For a guy who’s been brought up in the patriarchy, a sexually assertive significant other can be pretty terrifying.

Sure.  This is why I didn’t call the cops on the casual sex partner who groped me in my sleep.  Because it’s a bit much to ask someone you have no serious intentions towards to break open their entire understanding of gender and sexuality, just because it might make you more comfortable or jibe better with your politics.  It wasn’t criminal, it was just kinda icky. 

Men don’t get to be immune from other people thinking they’re creepy just because they grew up “in the patriarchy”.

Comment #44: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  04:40 PM

Absolutely. My point was (at least intended to be) that patriarchal men end up acting kinda icky as a baseline, and that that’s one of the things that’s wrong with patriarchy even if you’re not offended by its basic principles.

Comment #45: paul  on  02/21  at  04:59 PM

Amanda, I gathered the point of your post was more about how women should approach relationships and not what kind of people make better or worse partners. Sorry if I misinterpreted you. It was not a response to your post but just some thoughts on the subject you raised.

I don’t know how you can think there is a didactic, condescending tone from my single-sentence observation anyway. We seem to agree with each other rather (unnecessarily) rancourously here, and I think you are imparting all sorts of nefariousness to me that just isn’t there.

Yes, I recognize jerks are hard to spot. I don’t know what to do about that. My own approach is not to worry about it so much, so I get hurt, and I have many valuable relationships, too. It works for me, and I recommend it.

Comment #46: Luke  on  02/21  at  05:25 PM

Re “pro-feminist hipsters who vote Democrat are not immune to the incessant, non-stop message that women are crap:”

Agreed there are powerful, negative norms at work in the USA that make it less likely to find someone who is not a jerk. But I don’t think this is entirely fair: The messages are more that women ought to take on certain roles and men others (usually with women submissive to men). But what if a man doesn’t want to be or just isn’t the USA’s idea of a Manly Man? Don’t you think he can be just as hurt and lose just as much security as a woman who rejects what cultural norms prescribe for her?

Comment #47: Luke  on  02/21  at  05:33 PM

Also re jerks, I don’t know what you think I can say about that, Amanda. I agree with your view of the world here and never expressed a contrary view.

So all I would add is that charging headlong into love and relationships doesn’t necessarily indicate a failure to recognize how impressions of people can be deceiving, and a failure to recognize jerks are insidious. It may just as well signal a preference for tolerating the costs of being wrong to be trusting, in hopes of not being wrong once, of finding something real and valuable one day.

Comment #48: Luke  on  02/21  at  05:51 PM

I’ve met a lot of women who have had sexual partners, casual or regular, who show all sorts of cunning tricks to control the womens’ sexuality, including: never having sex on demand, but always demanding it just when the girl is about to leave the house; refusing to have sex at all because they know that’s what the woman wants, but pretending to be interested to string her along (i.e. classic “dick teasing” in reverse); having sex but withholding intimacy afterwards (without falling asleep, so not just following the classic pattern); or best of all, going limp at inconvient moments when the woman initiates.

I’m pretty sure that the last of these is physically impossible to do by choice if you are horny. So I think I know at least one woman whose sexual empowerment actually makes her casual hookups frigid or impotent - not every time, mind you, just often enough for it to give her the shits and wonder about herself.

As if it weren’t enough that these women have to be forceful to get oral sex, and worry about condom issues, they then don’t get what they want because the guys are trying to teach them a lesson in sexual submissiveness. It must surely be enough to drive a woman to marriage! (or celibacy…)

Comment #49: flashheart  on  02/21  at  06:05 PM

Whew, Amanda, yours and M’s posts were intense and intensely personal.  I congratulate the both of you for the courage to put them out there.  I do wonder how M’s BF explained himself for that horrendous behavior, a pretty extreme extension of his passive/aggressive behavior.  Sounds a bit like his libido finally pushed him to doing something but he intentionally denied her any benefit from it.  Yuck.  I wonder if he ever understood how abusive his pattern and that particular incident were.

....being single for awhile.  It’s not the magic bullet, but living by yourself and realizing that you are a full human being without a man to define you means that a major obstacle (who am I without him?) to leaving bad relationships is mitigated.

It’s also a good way to be a good mate.  It’s certainly more gratifying for a man (or at least for me) that a woman who is independent, chooses to be be with me because it’s something she wants and is free to choose, rather than just picking me because I happened to be around when her need for a man had to be filled.  My wife and I have tried to impart that message to our twenty-something daughter—to find work that will allow her to be independent and to live alone (or with non-romantic friends) to develop into or find out who she is herself before she connects in any more permanent way.  I always hated the line, “You complete me,” because it states that the speaker is incomplete without the other half.  I prefer, “You complement me, ” but that’s not as poetic, I guess.

Comment #50: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/21  at  06:17 PM

I look at a lot of women I know who spent their college years mainly single, and I think having the time to define themselves away from deep attachments to young men who have the near-inevitable masculinity issues that come with growing up in this culture gave them a basis that made going forward with relationships much easier, since they knew who they were and didn’t get so lost in them.

I went to a women’s college and there’s quite a bit of evidence that something like this happens.  Although women’s colleges only produce 5% of the graduates, I think they account for 20% of all the women in Congress, 33% of the women board members of Fortune 1000 companies and 30% of Business Week’s highest ranking women in America. 

I don’t know that it’s been much help in relationships, but I remember at the time that women (including me) acted distinctly differently in co-ed classes.  You think for half a second more before offering your opinion, and when you frame your argument you do it in a less aggressive way.  You’re applauded for a willingness to fight for your ideas without the presence of social cues that communicate something quite different.  As you note, it’s a critical time in developing self-image and its impact is lasting.

On the positive side, when it came time to sketch out career ambitions, it made it easier to say “I’m going for it.”  But that had its own problems, which didn’t really resolve themselves in terms of relationships until I was with someone who was a lot more successful than I was.  What can you say?  Wouldn’t have it any other way, but that’s the reality.

Comment #51: Jane Hamsher  on  02/21  at  06:32 PM

Laura Sessions Stepp forgets that young men do not generally hang around outside girls’ kitchens.  Or not a wide selection of them, anyway. My friend and I enjoyed much more success when we brought our six dozen green-iced home-baked shamrock-shaped cookies to the St. Patrick’s Day bash at the pub, where we handed them out to all the cute boys at the bar.  How else were we supposed to meet the interesting quiet ones?

(It worked, btw, even if not in the way LSS imagined.)

Comment #52: Pomme  on  02/21  at  06:38 PM

Sounds a bit like his libido finally pushed him to doing something but he intentionally denied her any benefit from it.

If you read the whole piece, it’s pretty clear that this was not the case.  She would initiate sex, he would turn her down, and then literally a few hours later he would fuck her in her sleep.  That’s not about someone with a Lysistrata complex whose libido gets the best of them*, that’s someone who has such a problem with the idea of a woman being an active participant in sex that he rapes her in her sleep as punishment.

*Which, btw, I think it’s somewhat offensive to imply that anyone rapes anyone because they just couldn’t control their sex drive.  .

Comment #53: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  06:41 PM

Although women’s colleges only produce 5% of the graduates, I think they account for 20% of all the women in Congress, 33% of the women board members of Fortune 1000 companies and 30% of Business Week’s highest ranking women in America.

Though this could just be a generational thing - 50 years ago, there were quite a few more women’s colleges (my alma mater began admitting men in the 70’s), and women’s colleges were really your best bet as a woman who wanted an elite education.  I would guess that a much higher percentage of college educated women graduated from women’s colleges back then as compared to now.

Comment #54: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  06:46 PM

A lot of men in Austin are fashion-forward.  I mean, still more women, but you know, I go into Service (trendy men’s store) and they have lots of business from perfectly normal, nice men.  The notion that “straight male” means “completely oblivious to how you look most of the time” does not in fact hold in the young, liberal urban centers, where women have enough money and social power that they can have standards that women in leaner areas can’t afford to have.  I know for me, one thing I liked about Marc immediately was that he dressed well.  Men who dress decently are sending the signal that they do think women have a right to be discerning, just like they are. Most men I know could tell you one clothing line they like besides “Sears” or “what my wife buys me”. 

In fact, it’s one of the big culture gaps between Austin and Dallas I’ve always found fascinating.  Walk into a mid-range restaurant in Austin (like East Side Cafe) and men and women both look relatively sharp but casual.  Nice jeans and snappy shirts, maybe slacks and a hip-looking jacket for men and a flirty skirt for women.  Women with a small amount of make-up and easy-to-do hair, men clean-shaven.  Everyone’s got nice shoes.  In Dallas, women do all the heavy lifting.  It’s not unusual in that environment to see couples where the man is wearing shorts (or slouchy pants) and a baseball cap, and his wife or girlfriend is wearing a dress or at least capri slacks and a designer shirt, with her hair done to the hilt and a ton of make-up on.  Wandering into the less evolved parts of the state dressed like the urban young couple is always amusing.  It reminds me of this.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/21  at  07:38 PM

Sorry I was snappy, Luke.  I can get that way before I realize I probably just need to eat a cookie.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/21  at  07:58 PM

“Hector, the younger generation of straight men isn’t nearly as afraid that liking clothes makes you GHEY.  But it’s no matter—-this picture is just one of a sea of millions upon millions of images, songs, shows, etc., telling young men that their masculinity depends on believing women are crap.”

I haven’t cracked a Details since Clinton was in the White House and probably since his first term, but at least per Dan Savage, it is a magazaine who’s readership is overwhelmingly gay guys.

“Although women’s colleges only produce 5% of the graduates, I think they account for 20% of all the women in Congress, 33% of the women board members of Fortune 1000 companies and 30% of Business Week’s highest ranking women in America.”

I’d have thought that you could attribute this to the women going to women’s colleges being generally more well-off than the other 95 percent of graduates, but I have no idea if that’s true.

So, young men, generally not people you should be exposed to for lengthy periods of time? I kid, but given some of my own actions and the foolishness I was buying into at the time, I can’t say I’d argue. Looking back, I’m really glad I’m not stupid and cringing toward acceptance from f’ing morons the way I was in, say, first and second years of college. That’s a pride-stomping bunch of memories, there.

Comment #57: witless chum  on  02/21  at  08:01 PM

You know, I do have to say that one reason that young straight men in some social circles don’t flinch from fashion is because homophobia is unacceptable.  I go with Marc shopping, and if a gay man helps him pick out some clothes, he doesn’t really think anything of it.  But if I took some redneck back home shopping and that happened, he’d probably hyperventilate.

Comment #58: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/21  at  08:15 PM

But if I took some redneck back home shopping and that happened, he’d probably hyperventilate.

Yep.  Have actually witnessed this with my own eyes. 

And we were in Banana Republic, so it’s not like we took him shopping at Flaming Steve’s House Of Clubgear or anything…

Comment #59: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  08:19 PM

I made my first boyfriend, the one I lost my virginity to, wait for two years. I was an ardent feminist, but I had never been exposed to sex-positive feminism, and none of the Andrea Dworkin and Susan Brownmiller I was reading gave me a way to think about sex as something *I* do because *I* want it; sex was constructed as something that women do for men or that men do to women, even in feminist circles.  If I had sex with a man, I was a notch on his belt, a conquest. So I wouldn’t have sex with the guy I wanted until we had been dating for two years. (To be fair, this differed from the usual method of not having sex that most women engage in, in that I let him get me off long before I would reciprocate for him, but by “sex” I mean “penetration” because when I was 23 that’s how I thought about it.)

He never raped me in my sleep, but he did frequently go all dark and broody, refuse to talk to me, refuse to finish having sex after we’d started (and I felt too embarrassed for him to confront him about it because I thought he was having trouble with impotence), not respond to my coming on to him, and generally be very withholding and cold (while accusing me of being cold because I didn’t try to read his mind.) And because I’d never had sex with anyone else, when he told me (not in so many words, but it was *really* strongly implied) that I was lousy in bed, I accepted it as true and it crushed my self-esteem for years.

The guy I slept with on the second date has *never* been sexually withholding or cold to me. Sometimes he’s an asshole, but never in that way. So I’m not seeing much reason why any woman *should* hold out on a guy she genuinely wants to have sex with.

Comment #60: Alara J Rogers  on  02/21  at  08:35 PM

sex was constructed as something that women do for men or that men do to women, even in feminist circles.

To be fair to our feminist foremothers, they pretty much had to work with what they were given.  It’s largely because of the work of people like Dworkin and Brownmiller (among many others, of course) that our generation of feminists has been able to start thinking about sex as something women do for ourselves, because we like it.

I remember the first time I read The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm for the first time.  Coming at sex 30 years later and from a really different perspective, I was like, “Uhhhhh, of course vaginal orgasms are real!  I have them all the time when I masturbate!”  But that’s kind of not the point of the essay; Koedt is writing at a time when women aren’t really encouraged to masturbate or have sex on our own terms at all or experiment with our own bodies.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  08:50 PM

Though this could just be a generational thing - 50 years ago, there were quite a few more women’s colleges (my alma mater began admitting men in the 70’s), and women’s colleges were really your best bet as a woman who wanted an elite education.  I would guess that a much higher percentage of college educated women graduated from women’s colleges back then as compared to now.

The median age of women in congress is 50.1 years old, so I’m not sure how many would have been in college 50 years ago.  Who are you referring to specifically?

Comment #62: Jane Hamsher  on  02/21  at  09:02 PM

I’m not trying to argue with you (and have absolutely nothing against women’s colleges at all), I’m just wondering if it’s not a bit of a self-selecting group.  Again, my alma mater used to be a women’s college but started admitting men in the 70’s. 

I’d be curious to see what percentage of college graduates attended women’s colleges in, say 1965 or 1970, as compared to the current 5% you cite, as members of the groups you cite are unlikely to be under 35-40 years old.

Comment #63: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  09:14 PM

First…a lot of the women who go to women’s colleges these days, at least the elite ones, aren’t from wealthy families.  Something like 25% of the students at Smith are the first people in their families to attend college at all, and I believe it’s the same at Mount Holyoke.  So the old Seven Sisters = rich girl correlation isn’t really true any more, and hasn’t been for quite some time.

Second…M. Leblanc’s post could have come from me.  My ex did something very similar to me at least once, possibly twice, and yes, it was after I’d started asking for sex because he hadn’t shown any interest in me at all.  He particularly was not interested (to the point of faking an endocrine condition!) after we were finally at the financial point where we could afford to raise the children we’d always said he wanted; he encouraged me to undergo pre-pregnancy counseling, get my weight and blood pressure under control, and take prenatal vitamins while telling me that “he was too tired” to have the sex that would have actually *led* to the baby he said he wanted so badly.

The whole mess was so traumatic that I haven’t dated or flirted since we broke up nine years ago, and I doubt I ever will again.  Even if I met someone and wanted to have a relationship or a hook-up, I seriously doubt I’d follow through.

I don’t know if I’d call what he did “rape,” but “mind fucking”?  Oh yes.

Comment #64: Ellid  on  02/21  at  09:57 PM

Ellid, that’s awful.

That was a very powerful post, Amanda, and a great discussion.

My relationship dynamic in college was a bit similar although I wasn’t as big an asshole as M’s boyfriend. I had no luck with girls, at all, in high school, and very little for my first year and a half in college. I’d mindfuck myself out of relationships because I was a) too passive, and b) too convinced that women wouldn’t like me. So my first serious GF was someone I wasn’t all that attracted to, but slept with anyway because I knew she was attracted to me. I liked her well enough but I kept her at arms’ length, and treated her unkindly. here’s the thing, though: she never complained, I assume for fear I’d break up with her or something. If she had said, hey, what the hell’s your problem? I might have wised up.

I wouldn’t have had the confidence to start a relationship with her had I been seriously attracted to her. It took me a couple years to get past that. What I observed from being in a relationship with her is that a lot of young women will put up with far, far too much bad behaviour in their partners. I’m not sure how to get around that, except to encourage women to be happier alone, and not pour themselves into every relationship, and encourage young men not to be misogynist assholes.

Comment #65: Norsecats  on  02/22  at  01:46 AM

I have to agree, this has been a very powerful post!

Looking back on my first college boyfriend, I definitely relate to the controlling asshole with-holding affection/intimacy and then demanding sex at inconvenient times (or more like using the Mars/Venus book to justify his desire for “quickies” (aka me: no orgasm) and promising better sex another time (I don’t remember what the book called quality sex, but whatever that was called, aka MUTUAL PLEASURE) and yet never having that mutual pleasure time. Gawd, what an idiot I was (He bought that book, by the by, as a means to use that jack-asses theories to make our relationship better—really, the misogyny and gendered stereotypes played perfectly into control freak’s game).

But worse, why would anyone NOT want their lover to experience pleasure? In my case, it was the control-freak aspect of the guy in question. I eventually caught on to that and dumped him, but I have to admit that when I learn about friends not having orgasms in their relationships, I’m pretty reactionary and weirded out by women who put up with non-mutual sex for the peace of mind of the boyfriend/husband. It just seems like never having an orgasm (and usually, those friends admit that bf/h won’t go down, won’t use toys, etc.) ...never having an orgasm must make one feel very used and with the expectation of always being used, not participating in a mutual act of love/lust. You know how homophobes love to be ehh, gay sex is icky? Well for me, non-mutual sex is icky (and I love how same-sex love really fucking shakes up the whole p/v penetration is the only sex and firm gender roles should guide household arrangements—thank Goddess for the gays!) 

Speaking of the gays, Amanda mentioned:

“You know, I do have to say that one reason that young straight men in some social circles don’t flinch from fashion is because homophobia is unacceptable.  I go with Marc shopping, and if a gay man helps him pick out some clothes, he doesn’t really think anything of it.  But if I took some redneck back home shopping and that happened, he’d probably hyperventilate. “

The unacceptability of homophobia in the lives of many of the men I know is such a relief of the burden of constant homophobia that is practically mandated in “mainstream” discourse. My brother is amazingly non-homophobic and I really respect him for that considering the pressures TO BE a homophobic asshole are so strong. He currently lives in the South, but he, like myself, was raised in the SF Bay Area and we grew up with positive GBLTQ folks in my parents’ circle—only a couple, but still enough to make an impression. Like, I thought Lesbanism had more to do with fabulous ethnic jewelry than sex growing up because Athena who was always at Berkeley parties I might have attended with my parents (watching cartoons upstairs during the party with other kids) always had the coolest clothes and jewelry; and curly red hair—she was the first person I knew who was called a Lesbian.

Anyway, I’m obviously way too sleepy to make comments on the intertubes, but my point is, Ain’t it Grand that homophobia is less and less acceptable and that same sex relationships really stand as testaments to mutuality as the key to love making? I remember in “Relax, It’s Just Sex” when one of the gay male characters was making fun of straight people for refusing to call anything but p/v penetration and male orgasm sex. He said, did you both get off? Then its sex. If you didn’t, its not. His definition requires mutual pleasure to be sex…and with that description of the perv boyfriend who only wanted to fuck a sleeping girlfriend, well that’s not sex! That’s not mutual.

Comment #66: Thealogian  on  02/22  at  02:26 AM

Looking back on my first college boyfriend, I definitely relate to the controlling asshole with-holding affection/intimacy and then demanding sex at inconvenient times

I wouldn’t have had the confidence to start a relationship with her had I been seriously attracted to her.

N.B.: I do not mean to excuse assholic (or worse) behavior in any way, but I did remember something about my own transition to partnered sex: Namely that it is a lot easier to focus on your own needs than to take your partner’s satisfaction into account. Solo sex is simple, you can have an erotic thought, followed by an erection, followed by masturbation to release.

Im my first experiences with partnered sex, I found performing foreplay that my erection got bored and wandered off. Trying to sync up our states of arousal made me (almost) long for those carefree masturbatory days.

So, instead of making the transition to partnered sex, perhaps these creeps are essentially still masturbating, using their partners as mere substitutes for their fists.

Comment #67: Hector B.  on  02/22  at  01:08 PM

I only mention this because withholding due to true emotional distress and lack of interest could easily be confused with malicious withholding.

Just as quick point, I wanted to say that I think MarkusR’s point here is an important one.  When we’re talking about withholding, we should keep in mind that it exists on a gradient.  What M. Leblanc experienced is clearly an example of the malicious variety.  At the same time, accusations of withholding can also be a cover for entitlement issues.

Of course, the folks who comment here know all that, I’m sure, but I thought I’d mention it because sexual dynamics in a relationship can be really complicated.

Comment #68: Linnaeus  on  02/22  at  03:05 PM

Namely that it is a lot easier to focus on your own needs than to take your partner’s satisfaction into account.

Well, sure.  Except that there’s a huge gaping difference between “someone who is kinda selfish in bed” and “rapist”.  Being a bad lover is not criminal. 

It always kind of shocks me how many men don’t really seem to get that rape is all about a lack of consent, and assume that there’s some sort of spectrum where “didn’t make sure she got to have an orgasm first” is really only slightly different from rape.  As if anything women don’t like in bed is potentially rape.

Comment #69: The Opoponax  on  02/22  at  05:57 PM

Hector, I agree that many young men engage in masturbation with the aid of a young woman’s vagina.

What happened to the woman in the post—her boyfriend started to have sex with her when she was asleep (no consent) and she didn’t feel free to protest because she wanted to have sex with him earlier because he rejected her, well, that’s certainly a malicious sexual act—I would call it rape because it began when she was unable to consent and once she woke up felt all those confusing emotions that go along with rape culture (she consented earlier, she’s had sex with him before, she’s not a virgin, they were in the same bed, etc.) that made consent difficult to gauge and she did not try to stop him.

Opoponaz: Now, what happened to me was bad sex with a selfish partner who wanted to both exert control/power over me and masturbate, but it was not rape. It was still an instrument of the patriarchy and of a sexual ethic that enthusiastic consent and yes means yes dialogue changing could really help remedy. I think that it is both dangerous to confuse those oh so delicate male minds with the idea that if she doesn’t come first, its rape because they are already so reactionary regarding rape, however, I will say there should be cultivation of pleasure positive sex and mutuality as the only kind of sex one should engage in as ethical, healthy, and indicative of “good lover” status. We need to cultivate the cause of mutuality as we champion yes means yes enthusiastic consent in order to fight back against rape culture that allows young men to think women as suitable masturbatory instruments in the first place.

peace

Comment #70: Thealogian  on  02/22  at  06:52 PM

rape is all about a lack of consent,

But, as opo pointed out earlier, some dickhead can argue that he has, in effect, a blanket license to have sex, under the theory that All sex that takes place between cohabitating couples in their shared bed is obviously healthy and consensual sex. To which the woman can counter that she never signed up to be penetrated in her sleep.

So I would argue that there is a continuum of selfishness, with rape at the far end.

Comment #71: Hector B.  on  02/22  at  07:10 PM

ack. reading m. leblanc’s blog really hit a nerve for me. i’ve had EXACTLY the same experience with two different boyfriends. i don’t know what it is, but, for at least one of them, deep DEEP insecurity seemed to be the reason. i’ve only just recently been able to admit to myself that the same guy was also abusive toward me for most of our relationship. it’s so hard for me to admit that even “smart girls” like me can end up in those sorts of situations. at least i know i’m in good company, and i’m finally at a place where i can stand up for myself and what i deserve and not take that kind of shit.

Comment #72: akzidenzgrotesk  on  02/23  at  07:02 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.