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Next entry: GOP Congressman: Republican party should rebuild on ‘sanctity of marriage’ Previous entry: Why who’s President does matter, example 1 of presumably thousands

Dear Diary

imageAnn Althouse finally does the retrospective we’ve all been waiting for: how her months of support for John McCain eventually became tepid and incoherent support for Barack Obama.

The aftermath of September 11th saw the fully-fledged legitimization of what was affectionately referred to as “even-the” liberalism.  Inspired by Mickey Kaus’ 2000 should-I-or-shouldn’t-I debate over voting for Kerry, as well as such luminaries as Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher (back when he was a fake libertarian in order to keep Politically Incorrect on the air), the simplest way to get attention after the Twin Towers fell was to be a liberal who criticized Democrats’ responses to the tragedy.  Even the liberal [X], making the brave statement that Democrats weren’t being tough enough on terrorism, got days, if not weeks, of attention and approval for writing a slightly more literate version of a National Review column. 

By the time the Iraq War rolled around, even-the liberalism reached its apex.  Here was a war in which liberals were left screaming into the ether about UN approval, arguing against a war which would remove an evil dictator in a matter of days and spread democracy within a matter of weeks, and only two years after the Day That Changed Everything.  You couldn’t swing a stick without hitting a former and/or nominal liberal shocked into “sense” by all the scary brown people who wanted to kill us, and who wasn’t ready to sternly lecture the rest of the unserious liberal movement about their utter lack of seriousness in the face of really serious shit.

The intervening five and a half years of everything they believed in having been proved totally and without exception wrong, you’re left with people who’ve either tried to slink their way back into the liberal fold as if nothing’s wrong, or you’re left with Ann Althouse, who gives a series of reasons for voting for Barack Obama that make as much sense as if I told you that I liked pancakes because dirt makes plants grow.

Rather than make you read the months of Althouse (which ranks up there with “ounces of smallpox” on the good for you scale), I’ll just give you this final argument from November 3rd:

November 3: “One thing I don’t like about John McCain is that he never showed respect for Bush. He was all about distancing himself from Bush, but if it’s distance you want from Bush, there’s Obama. And Obama had no reason to defend the other party’s President, but for all his criticism of Bush’s policies, I don’t remember Obama taking ugly potshots at Bush. McCain treated Bush like an outcast. Was there even a word of defense for the man who protected us from terrorist attacks for 7 years?”

I don’t think you could compose a better death knell for “even-the” liberalism than one last, plaintive plea for respect for the man who protected our precious bodily fluids from the terrorist invaders despite, you know, fucking up the country for years to come.  I’m not particularly looking forward to the conservative variety of this over the next term or two, but Christ, I hope it’s better than this unadulterated horseshit. 

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 04:35 PM • (71) Comments

Well said, and I suspect, the jaw-droppingly stupid bullshit will just keep on coming.  I have a ‘conservative’ friend who has already begun whining about someone among the 20 or so people Obama picked to work on economic policy.  I just laughed, and laughed.  It was good for my soul, it really was. 

People like AA, Hitchens and the like, considered themselves liberals before 9/11 (fear, e.g.) and should have even more so after, but it just brought out, what was already very close to the surface, their inner fascistic child.

Comment #1: Steve in CO  on  11/09  at  05:39 PM

Poor, poor altmouse, even that box of ‘07 white burgundy she’s been saving in the back fridge won’t wash the stupid away.  The reason she doesn’t like mcthuselah is that he wasn’t nice enough to daddy bush?  I give her nine out of ten for originality and minus five for clear thinking.

I really wonder about people who think Obama is too liberal.  Too liberal for what?

Poor, poor ann, she needs a new daddy and for some unknown reason President Obama just won’t do.

Comment #2: ice weasel  on  11/09  at  06:19 PM

Poor, poor ann, she needs a new daddy and for some unknown reason President Obama just won’t do.

And that’s going to be a problem for them for the next several months/year or two. They’ve spent most of the last decade fixating on Bush, then McCain, as Ultimate Protective Republican White Daddy Who Will Save Us From Nasty Brownsieses. Who do they have now? They got no one. Bush is gone, McCain is gone. Palin can never be the Republican White Daddy due to her not-man equipment.

They’re geared to relying on one Capital-L Leader who will tell them what to do, and they have no one who can fill that hole in their psyches…

Comment #3: Scott  on  11/09  at  06:36 PM

Which means, following her logic… Althouse weighs as much as a duck! 

Burn her!

Comment #4: Doc Johnson  on  11/09  at  06:39 PM

I promise to treat Obama with all the respect the left showed to President Bush.

Comment #5: Larry  on  11/09  at  07:01 PM

Larry, shut up.  You “OMGZ BIG TUFF REPUBLICAN HERO PATRIOT MANLY MEN” are the biggest bunch of whining, tantrum-throwing, BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWing little babies I’ve ever seen.

Not like you were going to respect anyone but a Daddy Figure anyhow - you’re a fascist.

Comment #6: Damian  on  11/09  at  07:09 PM

“I promise to treat Obama with all the respect the left showed to President Bush.”

...‘cause they are directly comparable as people?  That is an insult to Obama of the highest order.

The man hasn’t even been sworn in yet and you’ve already decided he’s unworthy of respect?  Interesting standards for evaluation you have.

George Bush Jr. currently defines the extreme lower end of the spectrum of American presidents. 

Should Barack Obama’s 1st term go as badly as any 4-years of the Cheny/Bush reign of terror, you have my blessing to condemn him.  And I will be doing my damndest to express the same thing.

If you’re so eager to blow your wad in the first 60-seconds, I’m sure there are a lot of more interesting ways to do it.  (Interesting for you, not too interesting for her…)

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  11/09  at  07:53 PM

As if there’s ever a “her” involved in Larry’s wad-blowing.

Comment #8: junk science  on  11/09  at  07:55 PM

Whoa that’s a lota anger towards Larry, Damian.  Makes me wonder what the back story is…

Anyway, I’m very curious to see how a liberal president handles America’s energy crises.  I have been very disappointed with both Obama & McCain’s flimsy energy plan.  Why are they not shooting straight about America’s dire oil situation?  Why do we hear all about global warming and not about our fragile reliance on foreign oil?  What is their plan in the event of a natural or man made disaster? What will they do to beef up our strategic petroleum reserve (which is at its lowest since 1969).  Will Obama have the balls to secure oil for America’s future? I hope so.

thoughts?

Comment #9: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  08:05 PM

What will they do to beef up our strategic petroleum reserve (which is at its lowest since 1969).  Will Obama have the balls to secure oil for America’s future? I hope so.

You’re proceeding from the wrong assumptions.

Comment #10: Auguste  on  11/09  at  08:16 PM

Whoa that’s a lota anger towards Larry, Damian.  Makes me wonder what the back story is…

We hear from a lot of Republican shitheads around here.

Will Obama have the balls to secure oil for America’s future? I hope so.

No, we’re not going to continue the Iraq war for you, and we’re not going to invade Iran.

Comment #11: Scott  on  11/09  at  08:18 PM

how so?
Our SPR is America’s only oil insurance policy.  That is a BIG deal.

Comment #12: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  08:19 PM

Larry, Larry, Larry…. if Bush had deserved respect, he’d been given some.  But he’s like you.

(And what an idiot you are: perhaps it escaped your notice that the RIGHT hasn’t even been faking respect to Bush any more. Possibly you were engrossed in tracking down that errant Cheeto in your couch?)

Even as trolls go, Larry’s comments are content-free.  Can’t we invoke the stick rule yet?

Comment #13: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/09  at  08:21 PM

Scott:

So how are we going to secure oil for our future?  I bet we will keep Iraqi oil fields secured. I’m curious what Obama, or anyone leading America proposes. Does the issue concern you guys?

btw I’m a liberal who is just very concerned about this whole oil situation.

Comment #14: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  08:22 PM

I promise to treat Obama with all the respect the left showed to President Bush.

Tell you what, Larry.  If Obama goes to war for what turns out to be no good reason and fucks it up in the bargain; allows an American city to drown and then congratulates the crony responsible for the foul-up; pisses away our national honor with torture and illegal detentions; uses signing statements to place himself above the law, or does any of the other things Bush has done to damage this country, we’ll treat him like we treated Bush.

Comment #15: Seraph  on  11/09  at  08:29 PM

Whoa that’s a lota anger towards Larry, Damian.  Makes me wonder what the back story is…

Larry is obnoxious.  Nothing really mysterious there.

Comment #16: Seraph  on  11/09  at  08:30 PM

Christina, this line:

Will Obama have the balls to secure oil for America’s future?

indicates the fundamental problem with your understanding of this issue.  There is not enough oil in the U.S.—no matter how much we drill or dream or pray—to serve as our main source of energy, and because the amount of oil and fossil fuels in the world are limited, we have to come up with alternatives.

You say that Obama never talked about securing independence from foreign oil.  Wrong!  He talked about it all the time!  It was at the center of his energy platform.  Go read his agenda.  One of his frequently stated goals is to eliminate oil imports from Venezuela and the Middle East within 10 years.  Then he lists various ways he plans on achieving this—which involves both conservation measures like increasing fuel efficiency standards as well as continuing to develop U.S. oil reserves.  Even if you somehow missed when he talked about it in his speeches or in the debates, it’s right there on his website! 

Moreover, can you not see the importance of global warming to energy policy? And how global warming contributes to increasing the likelihood of BOTH natural and man-made disasters in the future? 

“America’s dire oil situation” isn’t really that we don’t have enough oil—it’s that we need so much oil.  And we have been sluggish about developing and implementing domestic alternatives to fossil fuel energy sources.  Obama’s energy plan emphasizes the development of new technologies that can reduce our dependence on oil in general, not just foreign oil.

Comment #17: olivetti  on  11/09  at  08:30 PM

So how are we going to secure oil for our future?  I bet we will keep Iraqi oil fields secured.

If we’re smart, we’re not going to consider oil to be necessary for our future. Oil is expensive and rare, and likely to get a lot more expensive and more rare. Energy policy is important, and the McCain/Bush/Palin wing’s solution of “Just drill in Alaska!” wasn’t going to solve jack shit.

btw I’m a liberal

Suuuuure, you are.

Comment #18: Scott  on  11/09  at  08:34 PM

Olivetti:

“indicates the fundamental problem with your understanding of this issue.  There is not enough oil in the U.S.—no matter how much we drill or dream or pray—to serve as our main source of energy, and because the amount of oil and fossil fuels in the world are limited, we have to come up with alternatives. “

I know there isnt enough oil in the US, I’m one of those peak oil people.  Even if we came up with an alternative experts say it would take 10 years to switch our economy over to it.  So best case scenario we would need to secure oil for 10 yrs. When I say Obama has not been straight with us (or any candidate for that matter) I am referring to how fragile America is if (for example if there was an oil tanker accident in the Strait of Malacca we would be very screwed.)  Or on the subject of peak oil we hear nothing from Obama or Bush or McCain.  So until we have an alternative we do need oil.

“You say that Obama never talked about securing independence from foreign oil.”

We can never be independent of foreign oil.  I read his agenda and did not see anything proven to help us stop relying on the Middle East or Venezuela.  Even if we conserve energy, increase fuel efficiency, and develop US reserves like he suggests we will still be using oil way too fast. We will still need foreign oil. 

“Moreover, can you not see the importance of global warming to energy policy”

I think global warming is a big issue, but it would hit us (worst case scenario 30-100) years from now.  An oil shortage would hit us badly in a week(s).

“Obama’s energy plan emphasizes the development of new technologies that can reduce our dependence on oil in general, not just foreign oil. “

Technology does not affect our risk to an oil shortage.  At least that is what Matthew Simmons said at the last ASPO conference.  And he knows a lot about that.

Comment #19: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  08:52 PM

Scott:
I voted for Obama, and I do question liberal positions.  If that excludes me from your definition of “liberal” fine. 

I never said anyone’s approach would solve anything.

“If we’re smart, we’re not going to consider oil to be necessary for our future.”
Until we have an alternative we need oil period.  It is already necessary to our future.

Comment #20: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  08:55 PM

Will Obama have the balls to secure oil for America’s future?

Through years of advanced Yogic body work, I have learned the secret of chemically assembling crude oil in my balls. You, too, can learn the incredible secrets of creating oil (and natural gas!) in your ovaries or testes, for only $19.99 plus shipping an handling.

Comment #21: atheist  on  11/09  at  08:56 PM

I voted for Obama, and I do question liberal positions.  If that excludes me from your definition of “liberal” fine. 

Ya know, you include a link to your site in your sig. Makes it kinda hard to bullshit us with your “liberal bonafides” when your site is full of “OMG BUSH RULEZ”

I swear, why are Republican concern trolls so damn stupid?

Comment #22: Scott  on  11/09  at  09:01 PM

Christina:

In all seriousness, I think that, as you are (quite rightly) concerned about how the USA could become less dependent on oil, and also (quite realistically) about what we should do to maintain a supply of oil until such time as we can change our economy to run on something else (quite a tall order at this point), you should consider Obama’s first order of business not to act ‘ballsy’, attacking and threatening countries in the Middle East region, but rather to act conciliatory in that area. It seems to me that one of the biggest problems facing our national energy policy is simply the deep and long lasting destabilization that the past eight years of neoconservative geostrategy have visited on that region.

Comment #23: atheist  on  11/09  at  09:12 PM

Steve in CO, I gotta note that Hitch never considered himself a liberal.  That may have been what made his apostasy so easy.

Comment #24: Josh  on  11/09  at  09:12 PM

Scott:

I use my blog to show my differences with the mainstream liberal ideas.  I differ a lot on feminism, energy, and other stuff.  Check out my nov 4th posts all about how happy I was about Obama’s victory. Or my “about me” where I say I’m not 100% liberal.  Do u agree with every single thing the liberals do? I don’t get your criticism.

Comment #25: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  09:12 PM

“Through years of advanced Yogic body work, I have learned the secret of chemically assembling crude oil in my balls.”

Awesome!

I love how America has been aware of the coming failure of oil for most of my 48-years, yet Obama has to fix it — I assume with a wave of his hand or something.  All that time pissed away.  All that money pissed away (between Iraq and Wall Street, multiple Trillions down a rathole, after first being borrowed from the Chinese).  And now it’s “Mr. Obama, you better fix this…”

Jimmy Carter talked about these problems way back when he was POTUS — and got nailed to the wall for doing so, among other things.

Problems that take decades to create don’t disappear in 4-years…

Comment #26: MikeEss  on  11/09  at  09:13 PM

Shorter Me:

It seems to me that the way to help secure a continual flow of oil from the Middle East is not to act “ballsy”, but rather, calm and strategic.

Comment #27: atheist  on  11/09  at  09:15 PM

Christina, Obama’s entire energy policy is about developing alternative energy sources. 

Of course, you also define “intellectual” by looking up the word “intellect” rather than, say, “intellectual”, as would other people.  Sad, sad concern troll.

Comment #28: Jesse Taylor  on  11/09  at  09:16 PM

“you should consider Obama’s first order of business not to act ‘ballsy’, attacking and threatening countries in the Middle East region, but rather to act conciliatory in that area.” - Atheist

OK I see that the word “ballsy” has ruffled feathers.  How about:  Will Obama, if push comes to shove, be willing to secure oil for America using military force? I’m not saying it is the first thing he should do.  But we should start to hear more honest words about the situation early on in his presidency. 

I’m not calling him a wimp or anything, I am just wondering what you guys think.  I’d be asking the same of McCain.

Comment #29: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  09:18 PM

Jesse:

My point is that UNTIL we have an alternative energy source to replace oil we need to secure oil. Even if we had good alternatives we would need oil during the 10 year transition process.  As of now no alternatives come close to being adequate. The fact that many do not realize this concerns me. 

BTW I looked up intellectual and intellect.  You may want to re-read that post.

Comment #30: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  09:25 PM

Christina, in your mind, what exactly does “secure oil” mean?...

Comment #31: MikeEss  on  11/09  at  09:30 PM

MikeEss:

Well in Iraq we have already secured oil fields according to a Stanford professor in a documentary I was watching.  I suppose it would mean after all nice approaches fail, we would need to invade and seize oil with our soldiers. But I’m not an expect on how military resource wars go.

Comment #32: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  09:34 PM

“I suppose it would mean after all nice approaches fail, we would need to invade and seize oil with our soldiers. But I’m not an expect on how military resource wars go.”

That’s about what I thought you would say.  Do you honestly believe our invasion of Iraq has secured anything at all, let alone oil for the exclusive use of the US?...

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  11/09  at  09:37 PM

I think global warming is a big issue, but it would hit us (worst case scenario 30-100) years from now.

What exactly do you mean by “hit us”?  What is the image you have in your head?  The Day After Tomorrow?  If so, then global warming will never “hit us”, because that’s not how global warming works.

In the real world, however, global warming is already hitting us.  The oceans are a few fractions of a degree warmer, making the hurricanes that much stronger.  The ice caps are shrinking, which is slowly killing the species that live there.  Weather patterns are changing, giving some places floods and other places drought.  None of this is in dispute.

Comment #34: Seraph  on  11/09  at  09:38 PM

*I’m not an expert on how military resource wars go.

And the prof is Terry Lynne Karl, a professor of political science at Stanford University.  The documentary is called “A Crude Awakening”

Comment #35: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  09:40 PM

OK I see that the word “ballsy” has ruffled feathers.  How about:  Will Obama, if push comes to shove, be willing to secure oil for America using military force? I’m not saying it is the first thing he should do.  But we should start to hear more honest words about the situation early on in his presidency.

Christina,

First, from my admittedly incomplete study of Obama’s foreign policy it seems to me that, yes, he would probably be willing to use military force to secure oil for the USA, if he felt it was truly necessary. As evidence of this, please consider a speech he delivered in Chicago in 2002, before he began his run for the White House. In reading this speech, please keep in mind that it was delievered at an anti-Iraq-war rally, and so Obama would probably not have felt any need to exaggerate his willingness to go to war. I find it interesting how closely his statements dovetail with those of a famous ancient writer about war, in particular this one:

“No leader should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no leader should fight a battle simply out of pique. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life. Hence the enlightened leader is heedful, and the good leader full of caution.”

Second, I would just like to point out that, while your questions and concerns about US energy policy are certainly good ones, and your point that our society will probably need a long time to transform its energy usage so that oil and natural gas are not the primary inputs, and that, furthermore we will need to ensure a flow of oil during that time, I still want to point out again that I don’t believe there are many actual situations where use of military force will give us the necessary flow of oil. I think that the blowback from US military intervention makes it a poor and even counterproductive tool for securing oil reserves. It seems to me that our best options lie instead in de-militarizing our Middle East policy, and beginning to depend more on diplomacy.

Comment #36: atheist  on  11/09  at  09:42 PM

@  MikeEss

Well we did secure Iraq’s oil fields, according to Terry Lynne Karl.  I think if an oil shortage presented itself, we would not hesitate to take their oil.  Imagine American’s starving b/c trucks can’t bring food, or ppl freezing b/c they can’t heat their homes.  We would def have to take their oil. 

@ Seraph

“The oceans are a few fractions of a degree warmer, making the hurricanes that much stronger.  The ice caps are shrinking, which is slowly killing the species that live there.  Weather patterns are changing, giving some places floods and other places drought.  None of this is in dispute.”

I’m not saying it is in dispute. I’m saying global warming would not leave us starving and freezing as quickly as peak oil will.

Comment #37: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  09:49 PM

I liked it better when the conventional form was, “I’ve been a lifelong liberal but…”  When it comes at the end you often a read a lot of crap only find out it was just that, crap.

troll, if you knew anything about peak oil you would know that the whole point is that digging and warring for more oil is a pointless endeavor.  That some people have been reduced to that argument, either through ignorance or duplicitousness is just sad.

Comment #38: ice weasel  on  11/09  at  09:58 PM

Atheist:

Thanks for telling me about the speech, it makes me feel better.  The link didn’t work for me, but I’ll google it. 

“I still want to point out again that I don’t believe there are many actual situations where use of military force will give us the necessary flow of oil. I think that the blowback from US military intervention makes it a poor and even counterproductive tool for securing oil reserves. It seems to me that our best options lie instead in de-militarizing our Middle East policy, and beginning to depend more on diplomacy.”

I agree that it would be best to get oil without angering and invading a country first.  But if American people were desperate and unpopular oil rich countries wouldn’t help us, that is what our military is there for.  (Assuming a Realpolitik framework.)  That situation is not so unlikely unfortunately.

Comment #39: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  10:05 PM

Ice Weasel: I suggest you educate yourself more on peak oil.  I suggest starting with research by Matthew Simmons or the ASPO.

Comment #40: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  10:07 PM

Christina, you are advocating the kind of foreign policy the Victorians would have been proud of.  This is the kind of thinking that led Europe and later America to exploit nearly every other country and culture on earth.  With disastrous results.

In a world where America has become a permanent debtor nation, who has sold off or outsourced nearly everything that made us a great nation 50-years ago, what makes you think the rest of the world will just stand by and let us continue to act like a self-absorbed 5-year old? 

We are not the only users of oil.  By definition, if supplies are inadequate and we use our might to maintain our current share, we will be taking it from other nations and people who are also in need of it.

Do you think China will not protect its own access to supplies?  Do you think Russia will just look the other way if we invade them to get their significant reserves?  We might be able to take Venezuela, Mexico, and Cuba, at the cost of further reinforcement of our international outlaw status.

Somehow, that just doesn’t seem like a productive road to follow…

Comment #41: MikeEss  on  11/09  at  10:11 PM

Shorter Cristina: “Will Obama be willing to steal oil?”

WTH? Aren’t conservatives supposed to be on the side of law?

Comment #42: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/09  at  10:18 PM

MikeEss:

“what makes you think the rest of the world will just stand by and let us continue to act like a self-absorbed 5-year old?”
 
The rest of the world has stood by while we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.  They even let us get away with our little mini invasion of Syria.  The worst that happened was Syria got rid of the American Embassy it had there. 

“We are not the only users of oil.  By definition, if supplies are inadequate and we use our might to maintain our current share, we will be taking it from other nations and people who are also in need of it. “

That is a cruel fact isn’t it?

“Do you think China will not protect its own access to supplies?  Do you think Russia will just look the other way if we invade them to get their significant reserves?  We might be able to take Venezuela, Mexico, and Cuba, at the cost of further reinforcement of our international outlaw status. “

Haha, Russia would kick our ass! We better not mess with them!  That’s why we would have to aim for the Middle East and Venezuela.  I think this is a realistic scenario in a worst case situation.  I do not think it is a productive road to follow until other diplomatic efforts would fail first.

Comment #43: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  10:26 PM

Eric, Rejector of Memez :
“Shorter Cristina: “Will Obama be willing to steal oil?”
WTH? Aren’t conservatives supposed to be on the side of law? “

I’m only talking about “stealing oil” in a desperate situation, like if your family was starving/freezing to death. I don’t know what conservatives think, you would have to ask one.

Comment #44: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  10:30 PM

I wonder how many people Christina would be willing to personally kill to secure oil for America.

Also: contratulations on successfully derailing a comment thread, no I wasn’t interested in thinking about the real problems of energy policy, I WANTED to make fun of Ann Althouse.  Sigh.

Comment #45: dcb  on  11/09  at  10:31 PM

congratulations, even.

Comment #46: dcb  on  11/09  at  10:33 PM

No one who is genuinely concerned about peak oil would ever advocate for invading oil-rich countries.  Christina is the ultimate concern troll.  Completely ignorant about the issues she claims to care about.  Actual peak oil experts advocate pretty much everything that is in Obama’s energy plan, with the exception that they pretty much want American suburbs bulldozed yesterday.  Actual peak oil experts scoffed at Bush’s imperial experiment in Iraq as a last gasp of head-in-the-sand neocons.  Military action will do jackshit to secure bountiful energy in the future.

Comment #47: keshmeshi  on  11/09  at  10:36 PM

Ya’ll resume ridiculing Ann.  I think we all will be hearing more about peak oil in the future.

I’m gonna go watch True Blood now.

Comment #48: Christina Stroz  on  11/09  at  10:43 PM

Thanks for telling me about the speech, it makes me feel better.  The link didn’t work for me, but I’ll google it.

Odd. yes, it does not. OK, try this:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama’s_Iraq_Speech

Or, this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Obama+speech+2002&aq=f&oq;=
And go to the very first link.

Some ‘money quotes’ from Obama’s 2002 speech in Chicago:

“Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.”

“I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.”

“The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not — we will not — travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.”

I agree that it would be best to get oil without angering and invading a country first.  But if American people were desperate and unpopular oil rich countries wouldn’t help us, that is what our military is there for. (Assuming a Realpolitik framework.) That situation is not so unlikely unfortunately.

I very much disagree that this is how the US military ought to be used. My objections to this framework for US military action are not only moral ones, but also strategic, and economic ones.

Comment #49: atheist  on  11/09  at  10:45 PM

I wonder if Christina will be enlisting.  I understand the Army is having trouble meeting recruitment goals.

Comment #50: dcb  on  11/09  at  10:47 PM

Cristina: here’s the problem. Aside from the fact that we would become permanent international pariahs, it is comparably easy to burn oil fields to prevent their acquisition by an enemy: Saddam did just that back in the 90s when we invaded Iraq. So, yeah, aside from the strategy being horrifyingly inhumane and selfish, it’s also enormously impractical.

Comment #51: Erl  on  11/09  at  11:10 PM

You DEMONcraps ought to show sum respect.  Mr.President George Willard Bush was the jet pilot hero of the Battle of Iraq and landed on that aircrap carrier after destroying the alien mother ship.  Mission accomplished!  He killded a million terrorists that was hiding in suburban Iraq, pretending to be Iraqi soccer moms and then painted some schools so the remaining children could be re-educated.  Saddam Barack Hussein was a BAD man, as bad as WMD’s and Mr. President Bush made sure he was well hung.  And what gratitude do you LIEbrals expend to him?  Double-ought zero, that’s what.  Well, he is a wise guy and says “In history we’ll all be dead”.  So true.

Comment #52: Rugged in Montana  on  11/09  at  11:17 PM

I wonder how many people Christina would be willing to personally kill to secure oil for America.

She’d probably shatter her shoulder the first time she used an automatic weapon in training and drop out of basic.

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  11/09  at  11:19 PM

Cristina, shut up, adults are talking.

Comment #54: Damian  on  11/09  at  11:32 PM

Christina:  I am sick and tired of seeing familiar names in the lists of war dead in the newspaper, all happening just for the sake of oil.  If you want more oil so badly, why aren’t you out there putting your own ass on the line for it?

Comment #55: Firebert  on  11/09  at  11:34 PM

just a note.
one of the entries at Christina’s site is titled “Peak oil is the new global warming.” Which explains a lot, because any body who’s actually been paying attention knows that global warming was the new peak oil. Peak oil is in fact the OLD peak oil. To say “I think we all will be hearing more about peak oil in the future” is to pretend we haven’t ALREADY been hearing about it. Which is to say, she hasn’t actually been paying attention

Comment #56: Onymous  on  11/09  at  11:39 PM

How about instead of military action as the first resort to securing oil. streamlining the cost of it all by nationalizing the oil companies and not selling our own oil to other countries?

Comment #57: Xecky Gilchrist  on  11/09  at  11:42 PM

Christina, don’t you listen to these pregressive dunderheads.  George Willard Bush redistributed the wealth in the proper way when he attacked Iraq, by giving the money to private corpserations rather than welfare moms.  The three trillion dullars that have been spent on stealing the oil there has been well spent, I mean, it’s not as though spending that on wind farms (like we don’t have enuff wind already??) or photovolatiac panels (everybody has a camera these days anyway) that could be placed on every rooftop would have had the same impact, rite?  I mean, it wasn’t JUST about stealin the oil, it was also about beatin up a small country and sayin SUCK ON THIS, and that is priceless.

Comment #58: Rugged in Montana  on  11/09  at  11:44 PM

Wow, Christina is in favor of imperialism, war, and theft (and doesn’t like femininsm), but how dare we think that “liberal” is not a good term for her.

Fascist comes to mind as the term she probably should be using.

In case anyone is confused, the correct way to get oil from other countries is to PAY for it, not invade them, loot their resources, and flip them the bird as we drive away in SUVs.
And the correct way to keep costs affordable is to keep demand in check. With the rise of gas prices, fuel efficient cars have become the vehicles of choice; more frequent buses have been scheduled to meet rising mass transit demands; biodiesel has become a well-known option. Methane sources such as cow-waste and old landfills are finally being tapped, giving us a 2-fer of energy and cleaner air.

Comment #59: Samantha Vimes  on  11/10  at  12:00 AM

I think it’s fabulous that Obama’s got so much in train already, but am kind of confused by the “But what is he going to do about X????! questions, given that the man’s not in office yet. He has his policies and his plans, but he’s not a dictator, and no one knows what exactly he’ll be able to accomplish with the Congress. If you’re worried about a specific policy, then lobby your lawmakers to lobby him, join an advocacy group, etc. etc. Don’t demand Magic Obama Man anticipate all your concerns and address them preemptively.

I think that’s actually going to be the main Republican line: “If Obama’s so great, where’s my pony, huh? WHERE??? See, I told you he sucked!”

As for Althouse and the rest, let’s hope they’re all ignored and have to go back to dayjobs that don’t include them having any sort of influence on the national discourse. Obscurity is the best punishment.

Comment #60: emjaybee  on  11/10  at  12:24 AM

I’m surprised Christina didn’t bring god into the discussion somehow.

I can hardly wait to see WWJIKASF? stickers on giant gas hogs — Who Would Jesus Invade, Kill, And Steal From?

It’s morning again in America…and it’s lights out for everybody else on earth. 

I’m so fucking proud to share a country with Christina and her ilk…

Comment #61: MikeEss  on  11/10  at  12:58 AM

“Who Would Jesus Invade, Kill, And Steal From?”

Mike, I always enjoy your comments.  LOL!

Comment #62: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/10  at  05:12 AM

think it’s fabulous that Obama’s got so much in train already, but am kind of confused by the “But what is he going to do about X????!

Moreover, what is he going to do about Al Franken?

(okay! okay! you kids GIT off MY Lawn!)

Comment #63: Ms Kate  on  11/10  at  09:56 AM

As long as there are even minimally free markets in the world, America’s oil supply is assured. We just have to pay for the stuff. End of story. And if we want the price of petroleum products in the US to be massively lower than the world price, we either discourage domestic production entirely or enable an arbitrage (aka “smuggling”) market that would make the current narco cartels look like the corner store.

Now that I’ve paid brief homage to the troll, I’d like to say that the reaganization of GWB is going to be a fascinating phenomenon in the coming years. Just as republicans yearning for the 80s forget the felonies, the tax hike, the market crash, the gutting of public health and inaction on AIDs, even the rehabitation of Nazism under reagan, so will they forget Katrina, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the jobless recovery and the CDO implosion. They’ll remember the flight suit, “bring it on” and the guy who looked into Putin’s soul. They’ll remember Katrina as being about looters and gummint incompetence (not whose goverment), and they’ll remember 9/11 the way many of us now think of pearl harbor: the moment when our nation was galvanized to strive for greatness rather than an enormous, unnecessary waste of lives and property.

Bush in office was an embarassment, but Bush in exile will be an inspiration.

Comment #64: paul  on  11/10  at  11:55 AM

IMHO, one thing that Obama finally was able to do is start people saying “even the conservative [X] supports Obama”.

For too long there has been a debate amongst liberals as to whether we should reach out to conservatives and how we should do so.  Centrist types always urged us liberals to support moderates in the hopes of better getting the swing vote.  Many of my fellow moonbats were wont to point out that if someone is voting, e.g., for Bush, they aren’t going to be swayed by a few token shifts center-ward that will only alienate the base and be viewed by others as indicative of a lack of backbone on the part of Dems.

What people didn’t get is the goal of reaching out to almost-erstwhile conservatives is not to get their votes, but to get their support on those key issues.  Even before 9-11, the GOP benefitted from “even the liberal” reasoning.  There are areas in which we liberals can get certain conservatives on board without compromising our key beliefs—they still wouldn’t vote for us because of our refusal to compromise our key beliefs (and even if we did, they wouldn’t vote for us because we wouldn’t be trustworthy), but as long as we could get people thinking “even the conservative [X] thinks the Dems are correct about issue [Y]”, that gets people to start seriously thinking about voting Dem.

At some level, Obama realized this, I think ... and that was part of his success.

Comment #65: DAS  on  11/10  at  01:22 PM

Christina, you’re a pretty obvious concern troll.  (I’m such a liberal!  I have a card!  Now, let me expound on various right wing hobby horses.) But worse, you’re a concern troll who goes off topic.  Quit thread jacking or you’re out of here.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/10  at  01:46 PM

I’d like to say that the reaganization of GWB is going to be a fascinating phenomenon in the coming years. Just as republicans yearning for the 80s forget the felonies, the tax hike, the market crash, the gutting of public health and inaction on AIDs, even the rehabitation of Nazism under reagan, so will they forget Katrina, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the jobless recovery and the CDO implosion. They’ll remember the flight suit, “bring it on” and the guy who looked into Putin’s soul. They’ll remember Katrina as being about looters and gummint incompetence (not whose goverment), and they’ll remember 9/11 the way many of us now think of pearl harbor: the moment when our nation was galvanized to strive for greatness rather than an enormous, unnecessary waste of lives and property.

Bush in office was an embarassment, but Bush in exile will be an inspiration.

You know, it’s possible, but somehow I don’t think so. 

Above all else, they revere Reagan for being successful - not in the sense of governing well, but in the sense of resurrecting the Republican party; of creating the coalition, the strategies and the myths that have served them so well for so long. 

Now the coalition is tearing itself apart and the strategies no longer work.  They’re desperately trying to keep the myths alive, but that’s visible for what it is.  And it all happened on Bush’s watch. 

What I see happening - and I mean that literally, I’ve seen it happening already - is Bush being set up as the Anti-Reagan.  As St. Ronnie brought the Republican Party to the Promised Land by bringing them True Conservatism, so Bush the Younger has led them astray with his heresy of Big Government.  If only a GOP Messiah would come to lead the American People back to True Conservatism, then surely they would follow him. 

In other words, he’s going to be their scapegoat for the whupping they just took.  As Amanda has said many, many times: conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed.

Comment #67: Seraph  on  11/10  at  06:27 PM

I have a question, now, though. This is not a concern troll, though it may sound like it. It’s something I’ve been genuinely wondering about. What would constitute evidence, for us, of liberalism failing? I agree conservatives are full of idea-worshipping crap. How can I reassure myself I’m not the same? I’m confident I’m not, but it would be nice to have a way to hold onto that.

Comment #68: Erl  on  11/10  at  10:26 PM

What would constitute evidence, for us, of liberalism failing?

Hmm.  That’s an interesting question. 

It couldn’t be just one thing, of course.  It would have to be comparable to the last eight years, where conservatives have had a free hand to do whatever they like, and seen one after another of their Great Ideas result in disaster.  Systemic, in other words. 

If comprehensive sex education and easy availability of contraception resulted in an unwanted baby boom and/or an outbreak of STD’s; if taking measures to control global warming actually caused damage to the ecosystem; if teaching evolution in schools without religious interference caused us to fall behind in the global science community…if all of those things happened, liberalism would be almost kinda approaching an approximation of the epic fail that conservatism has demonstrated over the last eight years.

Comment #69: Seraph  on  11/11  at  01:13 AM

Thing is, I think we would notice that we were getting bad results and change our beliefs or methods long before it reached the catastrophic level of fail that conservatives require.  When you start from the assumption that there is One True Way, you’ll come up with endless explanations as to why everyone has failed to do it before you’ll admit that it has failed.

Comment #70: Seraph  on  11/11  at  01:17 AM

Well, Eri, there are certainly times when I do wonder if I too am a True Believer. I’ve read a lot of Marx and other radical leftists and That’s what I’m wondering about, in those moments.

But what is “liberalism,” anyway? To some degree, it is pragmatism wedded to a generic faith in human decency. Which part of that would we have to be convinced had “failed”—not just in one instance but definitively?

In those dimensions, to be unliberal is to have concluded that one or the other, or both—either sufficient human reasoning abilities to be pragmatic, or sufficient consideration for the general good, or at least the rights of other people (perhaps only founded on enlightened self-interest)—are indeed unreliable. And there have been plenty of critiques of liberalism based on exactly those premises.

Aside from these general sentiments, exactly what do we mean by liberalism? Because when we shake our heads at conservatives, reactionaries, rightists, etc clinging irrationally to disproven beliefs, they definitely have them—theories capable of being disproven which have in fact been exploded again and again, only to be revived and send us through another round of terror and ultimate, predictable failure. Such ideas include the notion of depending on the goodwill and wisdom of unchecked, unaccountable authorities, perhaps backstopped by the notion that these heroic leaders are after all accountable to God, Who will providentially assure that things come out right. Or blind faith that whatever is profitable to the already privileged and powerful will necessarily be the best policy for the whole society. A common theme of reaction is that people need to be awed, even terrorized, into behaving decently, and therefore the threat and occasional demonstration of ruthless violence is a necessary and therefore good thing. These are the sorts of things that I, as a liberal, and a possibly moonbat-insane leftist, wish rightists would outgrow by the painful example of repeated failure—while recognizing that, in a sense, these things are not failures at all, for they certainly do serve to perpetuate a robustly self-sustaining social order—of a kind. A kind that, as a liberal, I devoutly hope we can outgrow, pronto.

So when you consider, in your own dark nights of the soul, that we too may be just as blind and obsessive, is the roots of hope and trust in human capability itself that you doubt—as Goddess knows there is plenty of hard, nasty evidence against? Or are they more specific delusions?

Are we wrong for instance to believe in electoral democracy? Or the hope that our justice system might in fact by guided, however fitfully, by some approach to fair and impartial justice? Could it be that there are good reasons for what we call bigotry against diversity that we ignore at our peril and to our ruin? (If so, let the reactionaries articulate them already, and prepare to be deeply amazed if they ever do!)

The thing is, I think liberals, progressives, even dangerously doctrinaire leftists, have on the whole demonstrated over the centuries pragmatism; we are not wedded, as rightists more inherently are, to particular means, and we remain aware that the path to the desired ends is obscure and debatable, but we remain committed to progress toward those better ends, by whatever path and with whatever help comes available. We are not deaf to warnings of particular dangers, but seek to forge ahead around them or through them if necessary.

Comment #71: Mark Foxwell  on  11/11  at  01:19 AM

It’s very late for me now tonight, and I’ve already been very long-winded, but it occurs to me I could and should have been more concrete. Here are some specific beliefs I think are common to “liberals” of 2008 in the USA, that are debatable and have been attacked by conservatives; these are things that might be wrong. Perhaps others can point out other points that we tend to share that seem more likely to be wrong, or show that I’m crazy to affirm these:

That no one should be excluded from voting, and that we get better policy the more people participate in democracy;

That progressive taxation is a good thing, both as a means of raising funds for the public interest and because it provides some check on the tendency of wealth, and hence political power, to concentrate in fewer hands;

That regulation of private enterprise in the public interest is necessary and actually can foster superior forms of private enterprise more suited to the general welfare;

That positive support of people in general and poorer people in particular by public, governmental, democratically accountable means is good, both in the form of programs and grants specifically for the disadvantaged and general services freely and equally available to the whole public;

That education and the spread of knowledge in general is necessary and good, and that if this leads to questioning and criticism of the established order, that is very good, for the established order should be accountable and fair;

That violence in any form is a bad idea and should be avoided—this is tricky because avoidance by mere surrender generally leads to worse violence, of the institutionalized kind—but the impulse to just lash out should be questioned and every alternative path should be explored first;

That sexism, racism, gender phobias, and other forms of systematic hate and devaluation of “Others” are symptoms of social injustice and should be defused;

That human sexuality is on the whole a good thing, and sexual repression is generally a tool of reaction;

Therefore sex education, birth control technology, and even the option of abortion need to be affirmed, and those who oppose these things are wittingly or unwittingly serving a reactionary cause.

As I said, it’s late and I need to go to bed; I hope I don’t stay up all night wondering if I forgot something huge, but right now I feel I’ve covered most of the ground of the political wars as I recall them over the past 25 years or so, from the generically liberal side, and done so by articulating specific points the Right has devoted forests of books and megawatts of electronic media to denying.

I don’t think the Right has had nearly so much success in demonstrating, by successful public policy, that any of these are wrong. Not so much as they have demonstrated them right by confounding them with unsuccessful policies, leaving us predictable whirlwinds to reap.

Which of these, or other liberal articles of faith I may have omitted, seems likely to lead us to ruin to any of you?

I have to say that now especially that I am again living under my parents’ roof, who would be and are quite horrified at most of these points, I feel I am pressing a “Blaspheme!” button in earnest. And yet, they all seem like sensible and kindly-intentioned stuff to me.

E pur, si muevo…

Comment #72: Mark Foxwell  on  11/11  at  02:07 AM
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