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Next entry: Friday Genius Ten “Yeah, I Will Immediately Think Of 15 More” Edition Previous entry: Zombie spinster scare stories, with a Euro twist!

Desperation remains unattractive

Sex

As you no doubt know, I love Kate Harding and usually nod firmly at her blog posts.  But I have to disagree with this one she wrote about a woman named Neenah Pickett, who gave herself a year to find a husband and kept a blog called 52 Weeks 2 Find Him Blog.  I firmly agree with Kate that narratives that tell women they must be passive (or passive aggressive) to “catch” a man are sexist and not as effective as advertised, and that the portrayal of men as being composed of nothing but tender ego and skittishness—-where any kind of expectation-setting from a woman is sure to scare them off—-is also ridiculous.  But I can’t help but disagree with her about whether or not it’s a good idea to make it a goal to find your spouse and give yourself a time limit to do so, and it’s really not a good idea to advertise it. 

The passage from Kate I have to argue with:

Funny how that dovetails with long-standing gender roles and sexist expectations, although it’s now dressed up as the self-respecting, even vaguely feminist choice—only the most pathetic,  unenlightened woman would openly act like she might be happier in a committed relationship, right? Even if she’s pretty sure she would. Saying you want a man because you happen to be straight and lonely is just too dangerously close to saying you need one and single-handedly sending women back to the dark ages! It’s much safer for your own heart and indeed the sisterhood if you squelch your desires and wait patiently for someone to come along and deem you dateworthy. Just as women have always been trained to do, but never mind that. (Perhaps the popularity of “The Rules” can be explained by the simple fact that it gives women something to do while furiously pretending we’re doing nothing.)

Call me an optimist, but I think there’s a way to find a happy medium between pursuing love in a way that’s laid back and pleasurable, and coming across as desperate.  Sure, it’s an art form, striking that perfect balance of showing interest and investment in someone, but not letting your desire to have someone become so overwhelming that they run away because you’re desperate.  And some of the choices you can make to avoid seeming desperate are pretty simple, such as not proposing marriage right away, not starting a website about how you’re going to get married this year dammit, not saying “I love you” in the first week, not talking about how many kids you want on the first date, not finding really obvious ways to broach the subject of marriage on the first couple of dates. 

There’s no doubt that the stereotype of the needy, ring-hungry woman is used by men who, for whatever reason, prefer to date women who have their self-esteem lowered by emotional abuse.  I’ve certainly had a couple of baffling encounters with men who try to flatter themselves by making me seem to be a harpy who is out for one gold thing because I did something that demonstrated self-esteem, such as getting pissed if he didn’t call when he said he would, or “forgot” we had a date.  To a degree, this stuff was effective in my youth, less so when I grew up a little—-so I’m sure it works on some women.  But let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater, here.  Both men and women are perfectly capable of getting so obsessed with checking marriage off their life goals or even simply being validated by having a partner that they start to exude desperation, and there’s nothing less sexy than that, for good reasons, as I’ll get into.  God knows I’ve probably met more men that give off the stench of desperation than women, though perhaps my sample size is skewed because I’m a straight woman who therefore will attract these men’s attention.  Some were kind of grabby, and some were just clearly eager to get married so their toilets were cleaned more often, and came across as impatient with this whole dating process (especially since I’m sure they absorbed the cultural message that a woman is flattered by having a perfect stranger want to get you in a white dress quickly).  Not being desperate can and should be a gender neutral standard.

And the reason is quite simple: No one enjoys being objectified.  Call us hopeless romantics, but most of us want to fall in love, and to have someone else adore us for our unique selves.  Most of us find a way to square this desire away with the general understanding that most people we date—-or want to date—-should be on the market.  We don’t pretend that the ultimate goal isn’t to find someone you’re compatible with and perhaps settle down.  We aren’t so eager to be convinced that we’re personally so amazing and magnetic that we seek out people who are proving this by cheating on spouses with us, or some other transgression of basic norms.  But nor do we want to feel like going on dates is like being interviewed for a job: “Okay, well your resume shows you have the skill set to fill this role.  And you seem to smell okay.  When can you start with fucking me and meeting my parents?”  For women, and somewhat for men, there’s also the added concern that a person who is just spouse-shopping might be an abuser, who doesn’t really care about your personality because they plan to change you into a submissive, flinching victim. 

Someone, male or female, who goes too far into the direction of treating dating like you’re hiring someone for a job isn’t necessarily being punished for being too forward or sure of themselves.  It’s that they’re sending signals that they’re disinterested in really getting to know someone and letting love be the exciting ride that makes it all worthwhile.  I think everyone realizes that it’s frustrating feeling like dating is going nowhere, but I do think that there is a zen to it, where it is easier to meet someone when you’re not trying too hard, because that’s when you have the mental space to be charming by enjoying other people for what they are, instead of what you can get out of them.  It’s not that different from friendship; most of mine didn’t really come from being lonely and desperate, but just hanging out with someone and having so much fun I wanted to do it again. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:13 PM • (97) Comments

It’s not that different from friendship; most of mine didn’t really come from being lonely and desperate, but just hanging out with someone and having so much fun I wanted to do it again.

Well, OK…but per the blog in question, that method yielded nearly zero results for Pickett. 2 dates in 14 years, while she was busily enjoying her life and her friends.

It just doesn’t always flow naturally for everyone—for one thing, it can often be a matter of sheer chance whether you even have enough people of the desired gender in your “group.” Or whether your group consists mostly of people who’re already paired up.

Sure, there’s a middle ground between utter passivity and desperation—but that middle ground can include some focus and effort, too.

Comment #1: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  07:58 PM

She didn’t try that method.  She went completely in the opposite direction, if she only had two dates in 14 years.  You’re implying that extremes are all there is.  I’m arguing you have to go in the middle; be open and interested in dating, ask people out, put yourself out there, but don’t be like, “I want to get married, pretty quickly, and that’s more important than my interest in you the individual.”

Actually, I’d say dating is not natural for anyone.  Like all social behavior, it’s learned.  That’s why it’s good to think about how to strike a balance between being interested and being desperate.  One good rule of thumb is to enjoy people for who they are, first and foremost, and worry about checking “marriage” off your list second.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/07  at  08:04 PM

The problem with that is that a timeline just kills everything.  You want to blog about trying to find a serious relationship, sure.  But settign an arbitrary deadline just adds more pressure.  You meet someone and suddenly “will this person fit in my timeframe?” becomes the overriding issue.

Comment #3: Robert  on  01/07  at  08:05 PM

The irony is that only by treating people like uniquely interesting individuals will you even come close to the goal of partnering up.  It’s a matter of realizing that nothing is more charming than appealing to someone else’s desire to be loved for their uniqueness.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/07  at  08:06 PM

I’ll add that a lot of people would be happier if they just banished, “But it’s not easy for me/her/him/etc.” from their vocabulary, implying that it is easy for someone else.  I have yet to meet someone whose dating life has been a walk in the park, free of insecurity and strife.  Dismissing what’s effective with “it’s not easy!” misses the point.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/07  at  08:13 PM

Unfortunately, desperation can be very attractive to those who wish to exploit it.

Comment #6: weirdnoise  on  01/07  at  08:21 PM

Good point. Desperation does attract the worst sort of man, though god knows if you find yourself with an abuser, it’s often like winning the shit lottery. Sometimes you just never know.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/07  at  08:30 PM

This reminds me of the most traumatic experience vis a vis dating/being asked out I’ve ever had.  The man in question was so socially awkward, it never even occurred to me that he would be interested in dating.  It turned out that he was also extremely desperate for someone/anyone to go on a date with him.  Since that encounter, I’ve seen him approach many women and ask them out within at least ten minutes.  Meeting people and dating may not be easy for anyone, but for some people it’s extremely difficult.

Comment #8: keshmeshi  on  01/07  at  08:36 PM

Gotta agree with you, Amanda.  Make yourself happy first, then people will want to share that happiness, and love will follow.

I’m always telling my friends and acquaintances this.  Tho, either I’m running out of less experienced friends, or more people are learning it themselves.

The next step is that being in a relationship isn’t always roses - real people have their ups and downs and frictions.  And when you’re together that long, and want it longer, you learn to navigate around them, and help your loved ones grow so those problems aren’t as big in the future.

Comment #9: Crissa  on  01/07  at  09:03 PM

While I agree with the general point, I get the feeling in this case the author might have just been being savvy about herself.  When you have something you want to do “someday” but you’ve been putting it off for years, whether it’s writing a novel or seriously pursuing a relationship, it can take a lot to push you out of the procrastination mode and into actually doing something.  For instance, the social pressure of creating a blog and giving yourself a hard deadline.  As you Amanda says, dating is hard, and there was definitely something holding her back from getting into dating and this “project” seems to have helped her overcome that.  In the retrospect she seems to be appreciative of that in a pretty level-headed way.

But, the larger point on neediness, I definitely agree.  There is nothing less attractive than feeling like someone wants you because you meet some minimal standard and not because of anything particularly about you individually.

Comment #10: Jennifer S.  on  01/07  at  09:06 PM

Of course, thinking and talking about marriage or desires to have a significant other get in the way of actually seeing the other person and falling in love with them.

How are you supposed to find love when you’re blinded by some arbitrary goal?

Comment #11: Crissa  on  01/07  at  09:13 PM

I haven’t checked to see if she found a husband, but what if she did? Now he knows that he’s the guy she picked to meet a stupid blog deadline.

Comment #12: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/07  at  09:20 PM

I just finished reading a horrific story about George W Bush’s former white house counsel.  He beat his wife, sounds like nearly to death, broke her jaw, her nose, she was unconscious, but when she came to and he was still beating her, she managed to set off the house alarm, which i guess distracted him for long enough that she was able to run into her 7 year old daughter’s room screaming “daddy’s trying to kill me” and grab the now traumatized child, and her infant, and escape.

Then I came here and read this.

I don’t know, it was just weird.

Comment #13: JennyLI  on  01/07  at  09:22 PM

The time frame mind set has always confused me. Even in high school a couple of my close friends would say things like “I won’t kiss a guy until the third date,” or “I tell guys I won’t have sex with him until after 3 months.” I always thought what if you want to kiss him on the first date or have sex after a couple of weeks? What happens if you don’t want to have sex after 3 months? Are you going to feel obligated? What if he doesn’t want to have sex after 3 months?
It just seems like a good way to set yourself up for disappointment. Plus, it would drain all the fun out of sex for me if I was having it because of a scheduled appointment and not because I’m sexually excited. I think that mind set seems built on the idea that women don’t have sex because they want to and men always want to have sex. Both are, of course, untrue. But what really surprised me, even at 15, was my female friends’ willingness to buy into the “sex as duty” or “sex as a reward for commitment” standards. Since I thought about sex often and was curious and eager I figured I was the weird one or God forbid a slutty slut slut.
But as I got older and realized I wasn’t the only young woman who wanted sex, enjoyed sex and wasn’t broken or weird because I preferred to be assertive about my sexual desires my anxieties about the slut stigma went away. What did I care if some douche bag couldn’t handle my sexual independence a la Ross Douthat?

And I learned my lesson at 16 that worrying about commitment to the point of obsession to the point you miss all the fun things about a relationship just causes me misery and bitterness. I guess I was lucky to learn that lesson young. Or apparently to learn it at all.

Comment #14: shakahi  on  01/07  at  09:30 PM

*And I learned my lesson at 16 that obsessing about commitment at the expense of the fun things in a relationship caused me to be miserable and bitter.

Sorry, needed a convoluted sentence correction.

Comment #15: shakahi  on  01/07  at  09:35 PM

You know, if you know you want to get married and have a family—just as you might know you want to remain childfree forever—it’s not a bad idea to try to make that happen.

Yes, you should make yourself a happy person first—depression is neither attractive to decent prospects nor conducive to protecting yourself from the assholes.  But then you need to go out to places where you will meet potential spouses.

Even if you really like to stay home and play RockBand or watch Battlestar Galactica, you need to develop some outside interest that will bring you into contact with people.  Then you can see more of them and find out if they like Rock Band and BSG.

People aren’t interchangable, and you should try to find someone you love and who loves you for you, but there’s no such thing as “one true love” for every person.  There’s lots of people who could make good spouses, and you need to put a little bit of effort into making that happen, if that’s what you want to happen.  If you think there aren’t a lot of potential people out there—you need new hobbies and need to look elsewhere.

Giving yourself a year to do it?  Not the right kind of effort.  You might meet The Right One right away, or you might meet Almost The Right One, and need to spend quite some time determining that while you really do care for one another, for some reason or other a long-term commitment probably isn’t going to work out.

That’s not wasted time.  Not if you met a great person.  Not if you had fun.  That’s life.

But if all you focus on is getting a ring, you throw a person like that away and resent the time suck instead of enjoying it and learning from it.

Comment #16: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/07  at  09:54 PM

For instance, the social pressure of creating a blog and giving yourself a hard deadline.  As you Amanda says, dating is hard, and there was definitely something holding her back from getting into dating and this “project” seems to have helped her overcome that.

Then why not set a goal about meeting more people? Or trying to go out more often with people that share her interests? Those are goals that aren’t desperate and can be met in a reasonable time frame without reducing other people to game show contestants.

Comment #17: shakahi  on  01/07  at  09:58 PM

I don’t get it at all. Saying “I’ll have [project] done by [deadline], or I’ll find somethindg else to do with my time” is pretty much the opposite of desperation. It’s a mechanism to avoid throwing good money (time, effort, whatever) after the bad, and not to cling to goals which are not in line with your talents. Which is reasonable, especially if you have alternatives to pursue which are just as good, and whatever you are chasing is something you can do without and not regret it too much. It’s a little cold to do that to people, and giving a fair warning (e.g. via a blog) is a good idea. It is *not* however, what I’d expect anyone to do who wants nothing more and nothing else than a committed [hetero] relationship and the paperwork to prove it.

Comment #18: inge  on  01/07  at  10:04 PM

shakahi: Setting a time frame is a good idea when one has a very bad natural sense of timing and is aware of it. If, e.g.,  I do not feel ready for sex, I might tell myself, “three months”, so I have something to cling to when I feel confused or pressured. I might tell it to my partner, too, to make clear where I stand and to, again, avoid confusion, pressure and misleading signals. It’s a crutch, and good awareness and intuition are far preferable, but if you don’t have those, better use a crutch than fall on your face all the time.

Comment #19: inge  on  01/07  at  10:14 PM

Also, for those who didn’t click through:
No, she didn’t find a husband, but her conclusion was that is was ‘one of the best years of her life’ and that she made a lot of friends and had a lot of fun. I think Kate was mainly applauding that aspect, and less the ‘deadline’ part.

It sounds like someone did something slightly controversial, enjoyed herself, and is now moving on with her life. More power to her - there aren’t any guaranteed ways to meet people, including ‘just let it flow naturally’, and she found one that worked for her, even though it didn’t yield a husband.

Comment #20: jalmondale  on  01/07  at  10:33 PM

Amanda I think you discount people who don’t like dating.  I liked dating a lot and found it to be a rush and lots of fun despite not being serious about anyone for years but I have several friends that have always been extremely not interested in dating, they just don’t enjoy it or want it, they do want a partner.  In America it’s hard to find a partner without casual dating, not impossible but hard.  Casual dating is not chill when you hate it and are uncomfortable with it.

Comment #21: Victoria  on  01/07  at  10:34 PM

If dating and/or finding a potential long term partner were really all that easy there wouldn’t be so much advice about how to do it!  Nor would it be the source of so bloody much fiction.

I do think it isn’t very useful to tell people who feel desperate, for whatever reason, to ‘stop acting desperate!”  They probably already know it is unappealing, but are being driven by demons not fully theirs to control.  Of course, I also think, based on my own experience and that of friends, that people are more frequently *accused* of being desperate as a reason for a coward to dump them than they really were ‘desperate’ and I believe the ugly stereotypes of ‘desperate women’ in particular are something to be wary of.  All too often it seems to be a socially acceptable code for “I don’t want to continue seeing this person but don’t want to own it myself” and instead allows the dumper to blame the dumpee for their condition.

Comment #22: nell  on  01/07  at  10:41 PM

“Soft” deadlines are useful. When I’m working on a project (personal as well as work-related) with a bunch of unknowns it’s still helpful to set a deadline which represents my feeling as to the effort involved, perhaps adjusting it one way or the other as I go along.

And by actually reading the linked blogs, it appears to me that this is exactly what she did. She went on a number of dates, discovered a lot about herself and being with another person (which is quite a different experience than hanging out with a group), wound up enjoying herself a lot and deepening her insight into just what she was looking for in a relationship. And after the year was up, she’s still single after what she says was the best year of her life.

Life is like that; you decide on a destination and discover that the journey, not the destination, is the point.

Comment #23: weirdnoise  on  01/07  at  10:52 PM

Also, for those who didn’t click through:No, she didn’t find a husband, but her conclusion was that is was ‘one of the best years of her life’ and that she made a lot of friends and had a lot of fun.

Clearly the entire enterprise was just a ploy to get chosen as the writer for Nora Ephron’s next comedy.

Comment #24: Eileen  on  01/07  at  10:53 PM

Some of us are lucky and grow up—individuate—more quickly and cleanly than others do.  I sometimes think no-one should get married until they’re at least 30, although that’s hardly a guarantee that people in general would approach commitment with more awareness, it might help.

Took me till I was well past 40 and divorced after an intense 10-year marriage, to even begin to grow up properly.  And I’m still working on it now into my 50s.  Sometimes I feel pretty stupid that it’s taking me so long to understand my own emotional life, let alone someone else’s. 

I’ve reached reluctant conclusion that much of what’s important about relating to another human being comes only from experience, no matter how depressing that experience can be sometimes…the sooner people can come to a more aware understanding of our emotional lives, the better for them, and the better for whoever they happen to be attracted to..

Comment #25: Aurelius  on  01/07  at  10:55 PM

And yes to Victoria - I didn’t enjoy dating at all and the advice to ‘let it flow naturally’ in the way Amanda is describing was completely mystifying to me.  To me there has never been anything remotely ‘natural’ about any of it.

Comment #26: nell  on  01/07  at  10:55 PM

Since Backlash was mentioned in the previous post, I can’t help remembering the bits in that book about women in the 1980s who went through similar public efforts to get married by a certain deadline.  The creepiest was the woman who spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on plastic surgery to make herself marriageable because she was a crone of, like, 35 or something, and went on the talk-show circuit to keep the world updated on her efforts to find a husband.

The thing is, these stunts never seem to work.  Not only do they not result in a happy marriage, they don’t result in marriage at all.  (Similarly, the contestants on shows like “The Bachelor” almost never actually get married or even date after the show ends.)  It’s almost as if people really, really dislike being approached as items on somebody’s personal scavenger hunt list, and they run screaming from anyone who gives off that vibe.

Or maybe the women who pull these stunts don’t really want to get married in the first place, and the whole thing is a dramatic, passive-aggressive way of proving to the world that they really did work their asses off for a ring, okay, so can they finally stop getting dragged to sleazy clubs by friends and nagged by relatives at Thanksgiving?

Comment #27: Shaenon  on  01/07  at  10:58 PM

inge: Wouldn’t it be better to try to work on being assertive than to dangle sex out there like a carrot or even worse to set yourself up to for more confusion and pressure by setting a date that looms on the calendar like armaggeden?  I know timing doesn’t come easily and can even be incredibly difficulty but how about setting a date to revisit the issue?  Such as “I’m not comfortable now so let’s talk about it in a month when we are more comfortable with each other.” Sure sex talks can be awkward but they can also be fun and arousing. I would think having sex because of a date would cause more problems than it would solve. Plus if I found out someone was having sex with me because they set a date they felt obligated to stick to I’d feel like I was an accessory to sexual assault.

But I definitely get that timing and sex is very tricky especially in the beginning, so if setting a date and time makes you feel more comfortable and in control then good for you for finding what works for you. I’d just worry that you wouldn’t be getting all the pleasure you can from sex and intimacy and might even fall into the “sex is a duty” trap. No one should ever have to feel that way. Even the awkward moments can be fun..giggling at each other during sex can create some awesome sensations!

Comment #28: shakahi  on  01/07  at  10:59 PM

Amanda:

can’t help but disagree with her about whether or not it’s a good idea to make it a goal to find your spouse and give yourself a time limit to do so, and it’s really not a good idea to advertise it.

Some people work better to a deadline, even if they don’t meet the deadline.

I see the same kind of response to Martha Stewart—she doesn’t do housework willy-nilly, inspired by love; she does it with a goal and a plan and an agenda.  This makes her a cold bitch, the antithesis to Oprah’s untamed squishy woo-filled heart.

There’s nothing wrong with not liking to do it that way, but not everyone is easily motivated by feelings and freedom.  Some of us find feelings and freedom through structured goal-seeking activity.  Not everyone is cosmic and wind-driven.

Comment #29: oldfeminist  on  01/07  at  11:01 PM

Eileen @24: LMAO!

Comment #30: shakahi  on  01/07  at  11:02 PM

Different strokes for different folks.  I clicked on the blog and the writer seems like a self-aware woman who feels positively about her year of dating and good about her life.  She set a goal and worked at it and took risks by putting herself out there, both by the dating and the blogging.  I think that shows a lot of chutzpah, not desperation.

Comment #31: Anony Mouse  on  01/07  at  11:10 PM

Make yourself happy first, then people will want to share that happiness, and love will follow.

Actually, no, it won’t, always. I know more than a few happy, wonderful, fulfilled people who have been single pretty much their entire lives.

That people keep spouting this myth at them is pretty much their sole source of misery. One in particular is prone to say, “I could be really happy being alone, if only every moron in the world wasn’t always telling me about how they just know I’ll find REAL happiness, someday.”

Comment #32: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  11:15 PM

(In darker moments, it occurs to me that the reason nobody is attracted to these wonderful, happy people, is that most people are kind of broken and asshole-ish, and therefore have no interest in a whole and lovely human being. Where’s the codependent fun in that?!)

Comment #33: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  11:18 PM

shakahi: Fun thing is, sex and relationship stuff is the only thing where I’m consistently happy to take stuff as it comes. Everything else, though… Which is why I have a lot of sympathy for people using temporal frameworks to compensate.

Well, what?: Actually, no, it won’t, always.

But at least you’re happy while it doesn’t. Which is preferable to being miserable. Of course,  if it were that easy to be happy, everyone would be doing it.

Comment #34: inge  on  01/07  at  11:39 PM

One of the irritating things about life is that to be “normal”—ie, to have those things that is associated with living a successful middle class family life—you need to acquire certain skills that you might have no interest in at all. This includes “how to date”, entailing asking someone out, gauging a person’s level of romantic interest, and understanding the cultural rituals. It also includes how to invest your money for retirement, understanding how mortgages work, etc. Honestly, there’s no reason to assume everyone will care about these issues or even will be good about picking up those skills, even if they want things like a spouse, homeownership, and a comfy retirement.

Neenah Pickett attests to 2 dates in 14 years. Perhaps she really just had no interest in dating. Or maybe she just didn’t understand when she was on a date. But the fact remains that she didn’t develop these “dating skills” and then found herself many years later actually wanting to get married but not being equipped with the social tools. So in a sense, I understand why she might want to structure herself, set deadlines, etc. One can be totally happy with oneself and lead an outgoing life without necessarily developing those social skills involved with dating. Certain social circumstances can allow you to avoid this, e.g., having a large group of friends whom you socialize with and go to social events with, and perhaps romantic relationships can being without “dating,” but that tends to be the exception and limited to people who still live in the same city they went to college in and maintain their old social ties.

So let’s give Neenah a break: she just decided, rather explicitly, to train herself to take part in “dating culture,” something which she had little experience in before. The “52 week” deadline sounds sketchy, but I guess if you haven’t dated much, you don’t realize how that might not be a wise sort of goal to set for yourself.

Comment #35: Tyro  on  01/07  at  11:46 PM

What I don’t get is why Kate Harding seems to think this is a feminist/revolutionary act in some way…
  IME it’s pretty uncontroversial for a woman it say “I’m looking for a husband”, even agressively looking - it’s saying you’re not interested in finding a husband that gets people’s backs up…

Comment #36: nico  on  01/07  at  11:50 PM

Of course, if it were that easy to be happy, everyone would be doing it.

Natch. And just so we’re clear, I place myself firmly in the “broken asshole” camp. Also, my relationship history, scant though it be, resembles Amanda’s far more closely than Pickett’s. I just tend to have friendships that eventually blunder their way into sexual relationships. But I’m well aware that lots of people just don’t work that way, and yet avoid the merest whiff of desperation. And from time to time, I’ve found myself resenting my dating pattern—I actually think I might have chosen better partners if I had been successful at *looking for a partner.*

The thing is, while the blog in question has a nasty unfortunate title, and a dubious premise, there’s not one entry that reads like desperation at all. It actually reads like a chronicle of enviably self-aware romantic education—would that we all had 36 year old brains when we first really tried to parse out the world of romance. She came a little late to the game, culturally speaking, and realized she didn’t want to drift anymore. So she shook it up. Doesn’t sound half bad, to me anyway.

Comment #37: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  11:51 PM

inge: I’m actually one of those people that need routine and time frames with deadlines in most areas of my life. I’m a horrible procrastinator and usually ridden with anxiety. But for some reason I just don’t have the anxiety when it comes to sex. Even though I like to be assertive when it comes to what I want during sex, I definitely enjoy it more when it’s spontaneous…or like you said “take stuff as it comes.” But I think I see your point that some people probably need it to feel comfortable. I just have difficulty believing that in practice it would actually produce more positive results than negative, even for those people.

Comment #38: shakahi  on  01/07  at  11:54 PM

“Okay, well your resume shows you have the skill set to fill this role.  And you seem to smell okay.  When can you start with fucking me and meeting my parents?”

There are worse ways to put it.

Comment #39: asdf  on  01/08  at  12:13 AM

One thing missing from the comments is that in the wake of “Eat, Pray, Love,” “The Year of Reading Proust,” “Julie and Julia,” et al., creating a blog chronicling your year-long quest to change your life has become a known route to capturing a book deal.  The latest of these, “The Happiness Project,” is apparently going to debut on The New York Times bestseller list at #2 next week.

Took a positive psychology course and setting public goals was frequently touted as being highly motivating.  Which this seems to have been for her.  To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if some guy wasn’t holding back on declaring his interest until after the year was up.

Comment #40: East of Weston  on  01/08  at  12:28 AM

I agree with Tyro.  There are plenty of people who while otherwise good normal people don’t know how to express romantic interest or tell when others are romantically interested in them. We all have blind spots and tin ears in some areas.

Comment #41: shannon  on  01/08  at  01:21 AM

Capitalist goal-setting applied to human organic life is bound to look funny.

Comment #42: scratchy888  on  01/08  at  01:31 AM

One thing missing from the comments is that in the wake of “Eat, Pray, Love,” “The Year of Reading Proust,” “Julie and Julia,” et al., creating a blog chronicling your year-long quest to change your life has become a known route to capturing a book deal.  The latest of these, “The Happiness Project,” is apparently going to debut on The New York Times bestseller list at #2 next week.

This.  Heck, even someone that G went to high school with was able to turn her weight loss blog into a book.  It’s a publicity stunt in search of a publisher.

Also, it’s difficult to type when you have a kitten sleeping on one arm.

Comment #43: Mnemosyne  on  01/08  at  01:55 AM

@East of Weston—definitely hunting for a book deal. Isn’t that everyone’s part-time job these days?

Additionally: After much more reading (it’s perversely fascinating), it seems clear that she’s coming from a heavily religious background, and still holds a fervently christian worldview. In a couple of posts, she mentions how this blog is in fact going against what she was raised to believe—that the man should do any and all romantic choosing.

So yes, for her personally, it probably does feel revolutionary. She has been taught to play no role in her destiny, and instead has decided to take control of it. I mean sure it’d be great if she went from being a highly conservative Christian all the way to being a militant feminist atheist, but that, like finding a life partner, might take more than 52 weeks.

It comes down to this: there are a million problems with how our society construes love and romance and relationships. Pickett just seems like the wrong person to pick on about it.

Comment #44: Well, what?  on  01/08  at  02:48 AM

Amanda I think you discount people who don’t like dating.  I liked dating a lot and found it to be a rush and lots of fun despite not being serious about anyone for years but I have several friends that have always been extremely not interested in dating, they just don’t enjoy it or want it, they do want a partner.  In America it’s hard to find a partner without casual dating, not impossible but hard.  Casual dating is not chill when you hate it and are uncomfortable with it.

seconded.

dating has got to be one of the worst ways of socializing in existence. I much preferred the “hanging out with friends”/“hookup and see where things go” culture in Germany. Not that that one got me many boyfriends either, but it just felt less artificial and like going to interviews (I mentioned in the other thread how a British friend of mine referred to dating as “relationship try-outs”; she didn’t like it either). Luckily I’m an internet-freak, and there’s plenty of great people on the net, some of them even boyfriend material grin

Comment #45: jadehawk  on  01/08  at  04:43 AM

It’s not alwasy sensible to generalize from your personal experience, but for me, the happy long-term relationship only happened when I stopped looking for it, abandoned all superficial my ideas of what I was looking for, and just let things happen.  Almost a zen thing.  “Relax,” as Frankie used to tell us.

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I “dated” all through my teens, 20s and 30s, and I think that the whole concept of dating is fatally flawed. 

We’re told by almost every form of communication in our society that in order to be happy, we need to be in a committed relationship with someone else.  So, because I swallowed that Big Lie, I would settle for people who I knew deep down weren’t the right ones for me (and who weren’t all that great and who eventually made me unhappy.) I did this just because I was told all my life that being miserable with someone else was far, far better than being alone.

It was only when I was like FUCK THIS DATING SHIT and decided to be on my own and not worry about the whole meeting-someone-and-being-part-of-a-couple thing that I was finally really happy and content with my life.  I decided, I’m going to be single for the rest of my life, ROCK! And life got so much better! I was free! No more pressure!

After about 2 years of this dating strike, I met the person I would eventually marry.  But we started off as friends.  We got to know each other, really know each other, and then realized that we loved each other and really wanted to be with each other.  I was as surprised as anyone.

So, the upshot is, “dating” didn’t work for me at all, and in fact it made me miserable.  I would advise everyone who’s single to cherish your single-ness.  Don’t give up your precious single-ness for just anybody. And if no one comes along who you really want to be with, so what? Single life is great!

Comment #48: Rumblelizard  on  01/08  at  08:50 AM

jadehawk, that’s pretty much what the Youth of Today do where I live - the problem for me is that “hanging out” entails “going to the same loud party” and “hooking up” is the British system (that’s where I first heard of it, at least) of being just drunk enough that the next day you can say “well we all had a lot to drink” if you want to avoid that person henceforth,  but not drunk enough that it’s sketchy, which has always seemed to me to be kind of a hazardous line in the sand. I hate dates as a system - so much potential for anxiety and fake cheer - but if I had to go to a loud party three times a week to find love, showing up at a coffee shop and making awkward small talk with a relative stranger would seem like manna to me.

(Of course, my SO and I went the kind of nice-guyish route of hanging out as friends while awkwardly trying to articulate the extent of our affections and losing our nerve, for a long time. So. And if we ever break up, I’m going to be stuck with internet dating, because loud parties, ew.)

Comment #49: purpleshoes  on  01/08  at  10:19 AM

(In darker moments, it occurs to me that the reason nobody is attracted to these wonderful, happy people, is that most people are kind of broken and asshole-ish, and therefore have no interest in a whole and lovely human being. Where’s the codependent fun in that?!)

I have to say that I believe this is absolutely true.  I am one of those people you describe as being wonderful and happy.  I can’t tell you how many men and women wondered at the fact that I was single for going on eight years with nary a date in sight.  And, yes, I did go out and try actively to meet people.  I asked people out.  I was asked out (and the dates never happened.  Imagine that).  I went about my business having fun and doing my thing, and everywhere I went, everyone would wonder why it was that I was single for so long.  But not one of those guys who would comment on how unbelievable it was that a woman like me was single would take the plunge and actually date me.  And down deep in the pit of my stomach, I understood it was because if they dated me, they knew they would have to bring their A game.  I wasn’t going to put up with the bullshit excuses and the not-calling when they said they would and the “forgetting” dates and all that crap.  They knew it precisely because I was the well-adjusted, attractive, happy, comfortable-with-herself woman that Amanda is advocating we become in order to date.

And I was cool with that.  Who wants some petty asshole in their life?  It took a long time and meeting a guy with similar education and self-esteem levels and similar wit and intelligence to finally get the great relationship I’ve always believed I deserve.  And guess where I met him?  Sitting alone in front of my computer playing World of Warcraft.  Take THAT all you people who told me I just needed to get out more.

Comment #50: speedbudget  on  01/08  at  10:33 AM

You know, if you know you want to get married and have a family—just as you might know you want to remain childfree forever—it’s not a bad idea to try to make that happen.

Sure, as long as you make absolutely sure that while pursuing this goal, you maintain that someone’s individuality is more important and should be treated as such.  Exuding the “I just need a wife, please fill that role and quickly” is perversely going to get that goal further and further out of reach, as the good ones rightfully want to be treated like utterly charming, unique individuals.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  10:41 AM

I see the same kind of response to Martha Stewart—she doesn’t do housework willy-nilly, inspired by love; she does it with a goal and a plan and an agenda.  This makes her a cold bitch, the antithesis to Oprah’s untamed squishy woo-filled heart.

You just compared what is supposed to be loving another person to cleaning the toilets.

Now, if you don’t think marriage is about love, and you make sure to find someone who is disinterested in love, then sure.  But good luck with that.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  10:46 AM

I suppose what’s clear to me is there needs to be, for people who put “getting married and having children” as a big time priority over “falling passionately in love and enjoying the ride”, a chance to get into an arranged marriage system.  But even things that might tend in that direction, like online dating, end up just being like all other dating systems, where you pursue fun and company, and try not to be too eager for the ring, and if love strikes, gold! 

Here’s the problem: Even people who want to marry to check it off the list, want the person marrying them to be doing so because they’re madly in love.

So, even though it causes anguish, if you want someone to love you, you have to love them back. And so even systems that initially cause uneasiness because they’re mercenary end up turning into the same systems where everyone is in it for company and fun first, and if love happens, then they’ll marry.  The only dating website that seems to be marriage-oriented is eHarmony, and even they try to have it both ways, by implying that they have the key to creating love striking so that you don’t have to go in saying, “Okay, I’m interested in marriage before I’m interested in you, is that okay?”

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  10:55 AM

I’m not so sure it’s such a bad idea to be clear how you feel about committed relationships before going out to “enjoy the ride”. When it turns out that the two people enjoying the ride have very different ideas about what direction the ride might be headed but haven’t communicated about that, a good deal of hurt can ensue.

Comment #54: Steve LaBonne  on  01/08  at  11:06 AM

I didn’t enjoy dating at all and the advice to ‘let it flow naturally’ in the way Amanda is describing was completely mystifying to me.  To me there has never been anything remotely ‘natural’ about any of it.

I don’t enjoy dating, but I do enjoy having dinner with an attractive and interesting woman, or attending a concert with her, or hanging out at home with her, or having sex with her. The problem with dating is that is implies a sizing-up, a constant and active assessment on every bloody date of “does this person have long-term potential?” Letting it flow naturally has nothing to do with dating, or at least the American version.

When spending personal time with people, whether it’s women or friends or family, or spending time alone, I have one goal: relax. There have already been enough interviews and deadlines and punchlists and stressful situations in my life without adding to them (and, per Steve LaBonne #54, I’m up-front about that in a non-confrontational way).

Sure, I know how to play the “dating game,” just as well I can play the “project management game” or the “job interview game” or the “due diligence game” or the “historical analysis game”—I just decided that, unlike the others, it’s counterproductive when it comes to my ultimate goal. Others seem to have a different goal, and I try to avoid getting caught up in romantic relationships with them.

Comment #55: Gracchus.  on  01/08  at  11:23 AM

I think part of the problem is this focus on “desperation” and avoiding the appearance of it.  It has this nasty tendency to smash the following concepts together:

* Don’t be desperate.  Relying on somebody else to provide you happiness or self-esteem is a dicey proposition.

* Don’t appear desperate.  If you’re a woman, it’ll scare off all the men except the predatory ones; if you’re a man, it’ll show a lack of confidence that’ll make you unattractive to everyone.

Another part of the problem is that both these messages get taken to extremes.  “Don’t be desperate” becomes “don’t actually desire a relationship” (and, for women, often becomes “don’t take any active role in partner-finding”).  “Don’t appear desperate” becomes “never, ever, admit to being lonely or unsatisfied.”  For those less fortunate when it comes to relationships, these messages about desperation can come across as “stop complaining and know your place.”

Comment #56: jfpbookworm  on  01/08  at  11:53 AM

You know, all of this has inspired me to seek a very committed relationship this year ... with myself.

That’s the really important one.  Get that one down, the rest will follow ... or not, but you might not care if you are having fun.

As for the whole 52 weeks thing, well, it could be done well if the point was to try various “ways” of finding a mate and comment on them critically - like the woman (Beth Lipstick???) who did the self help circuit for a year and wrote a book about it.

Comment #57: Ms Kate  on  01/08  at  12:00 PM

Actually, I’d say dating is not natural for anyone.  Like all social behavior, it’s learned.

Am I the only one around here who doesn’t get/never got dating per se?  I’m in my 40s and married and kind of plain and sort of fat and I still end up finding “chemistry” with men in various situations not related to “dating”.  Why bother?  Go out and play and grab a bite after with somebody who clicks!

Comment #58: Ms Kate  on  01/08  at  12:03 PM

Actually, I’d say dating is not natural for anyone.  Like all social behavior, it’s learned.  That’s why it’s good to think about how to strike a balance between being interested and being desperate.

I’ll add that a lot of people would be happier if they just banished, “But it’s not easy for me/her/him/etc.” from their vocabulary, implying that it is easy for someone else.  I have yet to meet someone whose dating life has been a walk in the park, free of insecurity and strife.  Dismissing what’s effective with “it’s not easy!” misses the point.

What you’re missing here, I think, is that in these cases “natural” and “easy” tend to be relative terms, not absolute ones.  True, everybody learns social behavior and nobody thinks that their dating life is “easy.”  But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t significant differences in how readily people learn social behavior, or that people won’t consider the same situation “easy” or “difficult” depending how it compares to their own life.  It’s not one size fits all, and saying “it’s not easy for anybody, so you just must not be trying hard enough or doing the right things” is just patronizing.

Comment #59: jfpbookworm  on  01/08  at  12:19 PM

Ms Kate: I too never got “dating” in the “one person asks the other on a specific ‘date’” kind of thing.  I’ve tried it a few times, but all the actual relationships I’ve been in came about by other means.

(I suspect “dating” in that sense doesn’t work for a lot of people, but some of them have a hard time finding alternatives.)

Comment #60: jfpbookworm  on  01/08  at  12:25 PM

The only dating website that seems to be marriage-oriented is eHarmony, and even they try to have it both ways, by implying that they have the key to creating love striking so that you don’t have to go in saying, “Okay, I’m interested in marriage before I’m interested in you, is that okay?”

The one thing I’ll say for eHarmony is they have the decency to exclude gays.

I really don’t like how easy it is for “dates” to turn into job interviews, or the underlying suggestion that you have half an hour to like the other person and get them to like you or you’ve both just wasted your time. I prefer meeting and getting to know people without that kind of pressure, which makes having a gay social circle really nice, because your social peers also happen to be your dating pool, and it’s not weird or grabby to want to socialize with people just because they’re gay and might want to fuck and/or date you, since everyone else is doing the same thing.

Comment #61: junk science  on  01/08  at  12:33 PM

I’d also add a complaint against using the term ‘desperate’ as a descriptor when it comes to women. It’s become so broad an insult- it’s ALWAYS an insult- that’s it’s almost meaningless. It’s a lazy shorthand used across the board: by progressives to mean “patriarchy-compliant and looking to partner for the reasons my politics deem wrong” and “lonely slut trying to con some poor upstanding feller into awesome Marriage by way of her mighty vag” by the right, and “giving off some yucky vibe of appearing really desirous of something” by pretty much everyone. The zen advice of making yourself happy first then maybe/maybe not a suitable partner will fall from the sky has some of the same ‘wait like a delicate flower to be picked because to appear wanting is so unseemly’ to it.

Like ‘bitter’, it’s women doing something while being a woman.

Comment #62: mir  on  01/08  at  12:38 PM

I’m not so sure it’s such a bad idea to be clear how you feel about committed relationships before going out to “enjoy the ride”. When it turns out that the two people enjoying the ride have very different ideas about what direction the ride might be headed but haven’t communicated about that, a good deal of hurt can ensue.

Steve, we’ve finally found something that you and I can agree on.  grin  It’s easy for people to say, “Just go with the flow,” but sometimes that flow can send you into a swamp or right off a cliff.  Better to have some idea of where you want to be going before you get in the boat, whether it’s that you would like to be in a long-term relationship/married or if you’re not interested in that and just want to date around.

Comment #63: Mnemosyne  on  01/08  at  12:53 PM

The zen advice of making yourself happy first then maybe/maybe not a suitable partner will fall from the sky has some of the same ‘wait like a delicate flower to be picked because to appear wanting is so unseemly’ to it.

Funny how exactly one guy fell from the sky in 8 years of my waiting around like a delicate flower (and he turned out to be an addict, but anyway…), but once I decided I needed better dating skills and started meeting up with 2 or 3 guys a week from a dating site, I met my now-husband within a few months.  (If I counted right, I believe he was date #14.)

It’s almost like knowing what you want helps you get there.  Huh.

Comment #64: Mnemosyne  on  01/08  at  12:57 PM

I can’t speak to the act of setting a deadline for finding a spouse—and chronicling one’s steps toward the goal—being feminist or non-feminist, but it sure is a very, very American thing to do!  And I say that with admiration, not snark.  My late grandfather, who worked with a number of American military leaders during and after WWII, was always remarking on the wonderful, organized Americans, how thorough they were, how they planned and set goals and then went out and accomplished them.  It is kind of part of the national character, for lack of a better phrase, this get-down-to-business-and-get-things-done attitude.

And of COURSE it’s not easy, all the dating, “being out there”, discovering how truly strange some people are, being stood up, going on a blind date who takes desperation to the next level by not only telling you how many kids he wants to have, but also insisting on showing you which room will be the nursery.  Then there is the mad scramble to find someone who owns a suit and can speak in complete sentences to escort you to a wedding so you won’t be at the mercy of well-meaning but rude family members and friends who make invariably booze-fueled comments to you along the lines of “You have SUCH a beautiful face—why can’t you get a man?”  (Yeah, that was an actual comment made to me, verbatim, when I was twenty-six and single.  Twenty-six!).

After that mind-blowing nursery-showing date, I decided I was finished with the whole rigmarole.  Done.  Over it.  At twenty-six.  I didn’t announce anything—I just didn’t accept any more “set-ups” from friends, and just went to the occasional party or club with my girlfriends and gay pals.  A year later, having sort of broken my fast by agreeing to meet an old boyfriend at a live-music club in downtown St. Pete and then getting stood-up by said old boyfriend, I was just about to leave the place in disgust when a ball of energy with long black hair zoomed into the place.  Robert and I had our first date the following Friday night; we didn’t say goodbye until Monday morning.  And here we are, married twenty years this past August.  Weird, and very “sliding doors”, but true.

Still, I resent that people made me feel inferior—as though there were something wrong with me—because I didn’t “click” with the lovely, ambitious, eligible, smart, whatever guy they’d set me up with and help them build their matchmaker cred.  I resent that we can’t just treat everyone as a valued, lovable individual who remains so regardless of his or her relationship status.

Of course, if and when Neenah does marry, she’s going to realize pretty quickly that there will always be pressures coming from society at large—especially on women—and now there’s a new line of commentary with which she’ll be contending: “So, when are you going to have a BABY, huh?  HUH?”

Comment #65: litbrit  on  01/08  at  01:02 PM

I’m not so sure it’s such a bad idea to be clear how you feel about committed relationships before going out to “enjoy the ride”.

Strawman.  My experience has been that you can find this out while getting to know someone for themselves.  It’s really a matter of not exuding that “are you ready to commit to ME?!” thing.

The problem with “finding out if someone is into commitment” is that it’s almost always a fallacy, because it assumes that a commitment is something someone is into or not into.  What is true is most people are into or not into a specific person.  That someone is not into you is taken to mean they aren’t into commitment by people exuding that desperation, and then they get pissed off when the uncommitted person marries the next person they date.  (See “500 Days Of Summer”.)  The reality is that most people’s feelings about commitment are wholly dependent on the “who”.

Everyone wants a way out of the process, but most ways out involve not going through the trouble of meeting someone, falling in love, being charming enough to be loved, etc. But of course, attempts to get out of treating individuals like full individuals is exactly how not to get the commitment, due to most people putting a premium on “who” over “what”. 

I’m sorry that some people find it hard to communicate about what their desires and goals in life are, but in general I’ve found that if you respect people as individuals and actually bother to enjoy their company, the “whats” that you want out of a relationship tend to come up organically.  And if you find out that their goals are different, then that’s an incompatibility, and you should break it off.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  01:12 PM

I don’t know, mir.  I meet a lot more desperate men than desperate women.  And it’s always ugly and unattractive.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  01:14 PM

Mnem, you’re beating the same strawman.  I didn’t say don’t go on dates or ask people out or make a general goal to get out more.  I said don’t be like, “I’m ready to get married.  Are you or are you not on the same page?!”, because most people are going to be like, “Well, I want to get married, but definitely not to someone who is so worried about checking it off they forgot to ask if I liked them enough to even consider it.”

I saw something similar at Hugo’s, where a woman was like, “How soon can I ask if a man is serious?  Second date?”  And I was like, if you do, none will be magically.  Which will confirm your belief that men don’t want commitment.  But when they turn around and marry someone else, you’ll be pissed, because they “fooled” you.  But they really didn’t.  Commitment is often something that starts to seem like a great idea after you fall in love.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  01:18 PM

I’d also add a complaint against using the term ‘desperate’ as a descriptor when it comes to women.

That’s only because the patriarchy has rigged it as you describe—in a matriarchy it’s likely the other way around. I’ve met plenty of men and women desperate for marriage/relationships/sex/whatever, and it’s a perfectly valid adjective to describe the self-humiliation and self-fulfilling catastrophy they set themselves up for.

The zen advice of making yourself happy first then maybe/maybe not a suitable partner will fall from the sky has some of the same ‘wait like a delicate flower to be picked because to appear wanting is so unseemly’ to it.

Except that no-one’s arguing that waiting at home is going to get you that suitable partner. What they’re saying is: people who are happy and comfortable in their own skin and are willing to go out and meet (but not necessarily date) other people will have a better probability of meeting a suitable partner, if that’s what they’re looking for.

Better to have some idea of where you want to be going before you get in the boat, whether it’s that you would like to be in a long-term relationship/married or if you’re not interested in that and just want to date around.

People who are happy and secure generally know what they (and not others) truly want for themselves, and are honest with themselves about it. And let’s just say that those kinds of people tend to meet a whole lot of other people, in romantic situations and otherwise, who don’t know what the heck they want.

My late grandfather, who worked with a number of American military leaders during and after WWII, was always remarking on the wonderful, organized Americans, how thorough they were, how they planned and set goals and then went out and accomplished them.  It is kind of part of the national character, for lack of a better phrase, this get-down-to-business-and-get-things-done attitude.

At the risk of sounding like a “get off my lawn” type, I honestly don’t think it’s that way anymore, at least not when it comes to major national projects (see health care or energy independence). And even in business, I see that attitude (which I bloody love in that context—doing business abroad gives me a pain in my teeth) being supplanted by the “let’s schmooze for a while and impress each-other with superficialities before we get down to business and get things done.”

But that’s a de-rail, so bringing it back round to the main point, that new American approach to business can also be applied to situtions where the GTD goal is finding a life partner. Not really a good thing.

Still, I resent that people made me feel inferior—as though there were something wrong with me—because I didn’t “click” with the lovely, ambitious, eligible, smart, whatever guy they’d set me up with and help them build their matchmaker cred.

The warning sign for a bad fix-up was when the matchmaker told me “you’d be perfect for her”—maybe so, but there was little thought given to whether she’d be perfect for me.

I put the kibosh on fix-ups years ago, because most of them began that way.

Comment #69: Gracchus.  on  01/08  at  01:23 PM

I said don’t be like, “I’m ready to get married.  Are you or are you not on the same page?!”, because most people are going to be like, “Well, I want to get married, but definitely not to someone who is so worried about checking it off they forgot to ask if I liked them enough to even consider it.”

First few dates? No, of course not. Later on but before getting deeply emotionally involved? Hell yes. I’m sorry, but failure to air this issue at the appropriate time can and does cause a lot of pain. Just because it may not have happened in your experience doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. I hate to play the “I’ve been on this earth a lot longer than you” card but dammit, I HAVE been on this earth a lot longer than you. There are more things in heaven and earth, etc.

I am NOT saying there’s any “right” answer to the LTR question, only that mismatched, un-aired expectations can and do cause a lot of hurt, generally to the partner with stronger relationship expectations. If one likes someone enough to want to be involved with them, shouldn’t one be motivated to avoid hurting them?

Comment #70: Steve LaBonne  on  01/08  at  01:28 PM

I’ll add that a lot of people would be happier if they just banished, “But it’s not easy for me/her/him/etc.” from their vocabulary, implying that it is easy for someone else.  I have yet to meet someone whose dating life has been a walk in the park, free of insecurity and strife.  Dismissing what’s effective with “it’s not easy!” misses the point.

I have to disagree. Not that I think whining is productive, but initiating romantic relationships really is easier for some people than for others. And I think, in part, it’s a cycle that the more relationships you’ve been in the easier it is to start a new one. You know the ropes. Flirting is a skill, and it’s not one that people are generally very good at teaching, since the social cues of interest tend to be pretty subtle and easy to misread by the inexperienced. Unfortunately the fear of seeming desperate can make the social mindfield even more difficult to cross.

And there’s a huge distinction between beginning a relationship and maintaining one. They require different skills and being good at one does not always translate to being good at the other.

Comment #71: rivki  on  01/08  at  01:29 PM

Everyone wants a way out of the process, but most ways out involve not going through the trouble of meeting someone, falling in love, being charming enough to be loved, etc. But of course, attempts to get out of treating individuals like full individuals is exactly how not to get the commitment, due to most people putting a premium on “who” over “what”.

I think there’s a false dichotomy here.  What a lot of people want a way out of is not “treating individuals like full individuals.”  It may be a way out of having to “go through the trouble of meeting someone” in ways which aren’t actually conducive to meeting the sort of person they’d like to meet.  It may be a way out of having to be “charming enough to be loved,” when that means adopting a false extroversion.  It may just be an alternative to a system that hasn’t worked for them.  But I think it’s an oversimplification to say that most people who don’t like the conventional partnering processes are putting premiums on “what” over “who.”

That’s not to say that there aren’t people who want to just want to be able to say they’re in a relationship.  (I was like that in high school; I wanted a girlfriend because I thought other people were dismissing me as asocial, and a relationship would be evidence to the contrary.)  But there’s a tendency to pick on anyone who’s unsuccessful in finding a partner, and saying that unless they have a specific person in mind then they have no business feeling lonely.

Comment #72: jfpbookworm  on  01/08  at  01:38 PM

The problem with “finding out if someone is into commitment” is that it’s almost always a fallacy, because it assumes that a commitment is something someone is into or not into. What is true is most people are into or not into a specific person.

To a point that’s true, but there’s nothing wrong with expressing a general preference for or against commitment in a natural context, and doing so with honesty and forthrightness—especially when sex might be involved. It’s not excluding the possibility of commitment, it’s just saying that it’ll take a unique and rare circumstance to make it happen—which is the way it’s supposed to be when it comes to twue wuv.

But yeah, people lie, or fool themselves, or genuinely don’t know what they want. After a while you learn to spot the extreme cases and avoid them.

That someone is not into you is taken to mean they aren’t into commitment by people exuding that desperation, and then they get pissed off when the uncommitted person marries the next person they date.  (See “500 Days Of Summer”.)

I finally watched that movie last week and, whatever the intent of the bitter screenwriter, I found Summer to be the more sympathetic character (and not just because I think Zooey Deschanel is hawt). The mopey Gordon-Levitt character is basically upset that he wasn’t her special, break-the-rules “who,” which is a lot less justified than his being upset because his MPDG sprung the fact of her engagement on her supposed friend in a crappy and indirect way.

Comment #73: Gracchus.  on  01/08  at  01:43 PM

Flirting is a skill, and it’s not one that people are generally very good at teaching, since the social cues of interest tend to be pretty subtle and easy to misread by the inexperienced.

I’m told I’m a good flirt, but my problem is that I’m awful at reading social cues, so with the rare exception it goes nowhere. Which doesn’t stop me—it’s still fun to make people feel desired or naughty or put a smile on their face, but I’ve adjusted expectations accordingly.

Desperate flirtation, on the other hand, whether it’s coming from a male PUA or a female seeker of the dress and ring, isn’t fun at all. It’s pathetic and sad and insulting.

Comment #74: Gracchus.  on  01/08  at  01:52 PM

If one likes someone enough to want to be involved with them, shouldn’t one be motivated to avoid hurting them?

Oh but don’t worry, if they are even thinking about commitment or marriage, they are fundamentally incapable of love anyway and ought to just have an arranged marriage. Or something. So probably you can’t hurt them.

I just tend to think an average person can hold these two thoughts in their head at the same time: “It’d sure be nice to get married someday,” and “Wow, I really like this person an awful lot.”

That a minority of people are incapable of doing so **gracefully** doesn’t mean that everyone who thinks ahead to eventual marriage is a calculating (potentially abusive) fucker or a woman who wants to get that pesky individual outta the way so they can Get The Ring. We can argue that nobody should ever “want” marriage, but the truth is most people in this country do. To demand that they pretend otherwise, or repress it in the name of being more organically cool with life, lest we cool folks with our easy-peasy relationships mock them on the Intertubez, feels like The Rules dressed up in snobbier clothing.

Comment #75: Well, what?  on  01/08  at  02:22 PM

For the record I really think #75 is WAY harsher than anything that could possibly be merited by the mostly reasonable things Amanda said.

Comment #76: Steve LaBonne  on  01/08  at  03:05 PM

We can argue that nobody should ever “want” marriage, but the truth is most people in this country do

... at some point in their lives. At a snapshot of any given moment, this is less likely to be true.

Comment #77: asdf  on  01/08  at  03:17 PM

Except that no-one’s arguing that waiting at home is going to get you that suitable partner. What they’re saying is: people who are happy and comfortable in their own skin and are willing to go out and meet (but not necessarily date) other people will have a better probability of meeting a suitable partner, if that’s what they’re looking for.

Not just this, but it is always wise to understand that the ONLY person who you will ABSOLUTELY live with for the rest of your life is ... YOU!  If you aren’t happy with yourself and being on your own, that should be your focus regardless of whether there is a current or future partner around. 

I say this as somebody who is married long term with kids, but has her own life and a spouse who had heart surgery at age 31.  I have to think like this.  Anybody could be stripped of their life partner for whatever reason at any time.

Comment #78: Ms Kate  on  01/08  at  03:21 PM

Mnem, you’re beating the same strawman.  I didn’t say don’t go on dates or ask people out or make a general goal to get out more.  I said don’t be like, “I’m ready to get married.  Are you or are you not on the same page?!”, because most people are going to be like, “Well, I want to get married, but definitely not to someone who is so worried about checking it off they forgot to ask if I liked them enough to even consider it.”

You said, “I suppose what’s clear to me is there needs to be, for people who put ‘getting married and having children’ as a big time priority over ‘falling passionately in love and enjoying the ride,’ a chance to get into an arranged marriage system.” 

I started going out and meeting more people because I knew I wanted to get married someday.  I’m sorry if that makes me a terrible feminist for not wanting to “go with the flow” and wait around and see what might happen, but that’s what I did.

Comment #79: Mnemosyne  on  01/08  at  03:22 PM

@Steve, I was responding specifically to these statements:

Now, if you don’t think marriage is about love, and you make sure to find someone who is disinterested in love, then sure.  But good luck with that.

I suppose what’s clear to me is there needs to be, for people who put “getting married and having children” as a big time priority over “falling passionately in love and enjoying the ride”, a chance to get into an arranged marriage system.

I think she was setting up a seriously false dichotomy. Nobody—not even the blogger in question, ever talked about ignoring individuals or cutting love out of the marriage equation. To say that being upfront about wanting to get married is the same as “not thinking marriage is about love” is patently absurd.

You might find it personally unappealing, but aesthetics differ, yanno? Will many people be turned off by someone who says, “I’d like to get married someday”? Sure. But some won’t, because maybe they find that kind of long-term thinking attractive. People are wild, the way they like different things.

Comment #80: Well, what?  on  01/08  at  03:30 PM

Ha! Mnem and I agree. The world is ending. wink

Comment #81: Well, what?  on  01/08  at  03:32 PM

Will many people be turned off by someone who says, “I’d like to get married someday”?

I would argue that most people wouldn’t be turned off by that at all, since it’s nothing like “I want to get married within a year, and I’m looking for someone to fill that slot.”

Honestly, the most I see Amanda saying here is that it sucks when a date turns into a job interview, which I’ve never seen anyone disagree with. Along the same lines, it sucks when people can’t relax and enjoy their time with other people instead of constantly thinking about where they are in life and where they’d rather be and whether or not they’re failing or succeeding at being a lovable, worthwhile person. The less of that there is in the world, the better.

Comment #82: junk science  on  01/08  at  04:26 PM

Honestly, the most I see Amanda saying here is that it sucks when a date turns into a job interview, which I’ve never seen anyone disagree with.

Actually, most of the problem seems to be the perceived invocation of the common advice to just stop acting so desperate if one really wants a relationship, compounded with early comments to the effect that people would be better off if they just stopped complaining about their difficulties in finding partners and a lack of acknowledgment that dating doesn’t come equally naturally to everyone.

Comment #83: jfpbookworm  on  01/08  at  05:05 PM

(Of course, my SO and I went the kind of nice-guyish route of hanging out as friends while awkwardly trying to articulate the extent of our affections and losing our nerve, for a long time. So. And if we ever break up, I’m going to be stuck with internet dating, because loud parties, ew.)

just need to say this, because it’s one of my pet peeves (and maybe that’s not at all what you meant, but it reminded me of it, in any case):

Internet dating is not the only way in which relationships can come from the internet!. It bugs me that many people (and even Skeptics magazines) seem to believe that the only way to meet a significant other on the net is to join an internet dating site. That’s bullshit. Internet Dating is merely an even worse version of dating; but the option to just hang out and get to know people in groups exists on the net as well, since most people who aren’t internet luddites are members of forums, blogs, etc. And the people who post on such sites are real people! who may or may not be boyfriend material! Point being, even though I met most of my boyfriends online, it wasn’t through a dating site for the same reason I don’t date in meatspace: it’s a horrible way to get to know people. Instead, I met them via various groups I belong to. And I’m not the only one, either. I know of at least 3 marriages where the couple met on a travel forum!

Comment #84: jadehawk  on  01/08  at  07:24 PM

I see the same kind of response to Martha Stewart—she doesn’t do housework willy-nilly, inspired by love; she does it with a goal and a plan and an agenda.  This makes her a cold bitch, the antithesis to Oprah’s untamed squishy woo-filled heart.

You just compared what is supposed to be loving another person to cleaning the toilets.
Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte on 01/08 at 08:46 AM

No, I was comparing cleaning the toilets with a plan to cleaning the toilets with some cosmic idea that the toilet will clean itself if you think positive things about toilets.

Success in anything tends to be a combination of preparation and luck.  Depending on only one factor will make the process a lot harder.  Yes, preparation includes being happy with yourself.  It also includes thinking about letting other people into your life, people who aren’t exactly what you expect them to be, thinking about what is a deal-breaker and what isn’t, and then going out and interacting with people to find out whether what you thought was a deal-breaker really isn’t and vice versa.

Not everyone is good at social contact, for example.  Those of us who are introverts can be a mystery to those who aren’t—why wouldn’t we spend lots of time out where we can meet people?  If you want to meet the right guy, just meet lots of guys, and one will click.

Well, it wears us out to meet people.  We need to feel like at least some of the time we spend extending ourselves into social meatspace will result in movement towards something we want, because random socializing isn’t a benefit to us.  It’s a cost.  If we don’t socialize with at least an idea of where our socializing will pay off for us, we will get too much negative feedback, and quit.

“You have SUCH a beautiful face—why can’t you get a man?” (Yeah, that was an actual comment made to me, verbatim, when I was twenty-six and single.  Twenty-six!).
Comment #65: litbrit on 01/08 at 11:02 AM

Was it because you were “fat”?  Because that’s the standard way to describe a fat girl.  “Such a pretty face.”  I think it’s even the name of a book…yeah, here it is.

Comment #85: oldfeminist  on  01/08  at  08:25 PM

Internet dating is not the only way in which relationships can come from the internet!. ... I know of at least 3 marriages where the couple met on a travel forum!
Comment #84: jadehawk on 01/08 at 05:24 PM

Absolutely.  I know more than one couple that started that way, too.  The internet is a place where you can meet people who share interests and activities without limitations of physical proximity.

Comment #86: oldfeminist  on  01/08  at  08:44 PM

Those of us who are introverts can be a mystery to those who aren’t—why wouldn’t we spend lots of time out where we can meet people?  If you want to meet the right guy, just meet lots of guys, and one will click.

Well, it wears us out to meet people.  We need to feel like at least some of the time we spend extending ourselves into social meatspace will result in movement towards something we want, because random socializing isn’t a benefit to us.  It’s a cost.  If we don’t socialize with at least an idea of where our socializing will pay off for us, we will get too much negative feedback, and quit.

That’s a good point. I used to be baffled by people who made small talk with cashiers or waiters or people they were unlikely to ever see again, because why would you go to the trouble of talking to someone you don’t know and can’t really care about just for its own sake, with no possible “payoff”? It took me a while to realize that casual conversation really isn’t the mental strain for everyone that it is for me, and that being able to chat casually with strangers does have long-term social benefits, as well as occasionally being valuable for its own sake. But I still tend to react to it the same way I would to randomly getting on the floor to do pushups.

Comment #87: junk science  on  01/08  at  09:25 PM

“the reason is quite simple: No one enjoys being objectified.”

This.

Nobody wants to be “a piece of ass” and nobody wants to be “a husband” because those are things, not people, to the person seeming them.

A year or two out of college my long-time partner came out and left me for another woman.  She explained her decision to her friends with very generous words about my suitability as a partner in all regards but my biology.  This combination of factors, it turned out, briefly made me the most eligible bachelor on the planet as far as a number of impatiently single women in the neighborhood were concerned.

It wasn’t even as much fun as it sounds.

Meanwhile potential partners who weren’t impatiently single generally gave me a lot of space to get over what was a seriously traumatic separation for me.

—-

That said, I agree the right word probably isn’t “desperate.”  It’s something more like “instrumental.”

Funny but true story: decades ago I was at a Halloween party.  We were hanging out with a mixed group of friends and towards the end of the evening one of the men, who was dressed up like an old prospector, stands up, gathered up his various props, including a shovel and with absolutely no trace of self-awareness said “it’s getting late so I’d better go see if I can dig up a girl.”

That wasn’t about desperation, but it wasn’t exactly about forming a peer relationship either.  Since his intention was just to get laid he didn’t particularly care who he got laid with.  Which I’m sure made everyone he approached feel really unique and special. 

Which is pretty much exactly how I felt when I was being trolled for my long-term relationship potential.  It wasn’t that they were desperate, it’s that they were driven by their purpose rather than by any person.

So yeah, it felt like a job interview. But worse, it felt like an interview for a job I wasn’t applying for.

It’s great if you say “enough dallying, I’m going to go out and meet people, reassess assumptions, criteria, and habits that make me unavailable or undesirable, and see what happens.”  Saying “52 weeks from now I’m going to be married,” or for that matter “I’m going to go dig up a girl” is something else altogether.

That’s what I thought Amanda meant.

figleaf

Comment #88: figleaf  on  01/09  at  12:11 AM

I just tend to think an average person can hold these two thoughts in their head at the same time: “It’d sure be nice to get married someday,” and “Wow, I really like this person an awful lot.”

THANK you.

Look, this is one of those sexist double binds.  It’s a very, very old sexist tradition to say women MUST get married and MUST want to get married.  It is also a very, very old sexist tradition (from the 18th century, if not before) to dump on women who look too eager to marry, or who are interested in men who haven’t evinced the same interest in them.  Sexism slams women from both sides on this issue, just as it slams us on sex (slut/prude), on appearance (ugly hag/shallow bimbo), on the many aspects of the “mommy wars”.  Sexist stereotypes—the “desperate woman” in this case, but also the gold-digger, the frigid bitch, the nymphomaniac, the Bridezilla—are often used to shame women who express desires that conflict with what another person wants, even if those desires are perfectly reasonable.

It’s a jerk move.  But it’s harder to combat that jerk move if you actually DO want the things you’ve been accused of being “desperate” for, and if you’ve been shamed into thinking that’s stupid and bad.  It’s not bad to want a committed relationship and/or marriage and/or children.  And suggesting that people who DO want those things out of a relationship are necessarily prioritizing them over love, or objectifying the people they date, looks to me like shaming behaviour that isn’t helpful.

Comment #89: killjoy  on  01/09  at  05:22 AM

Actually, no, figleaf… the situation you describe has the women coming to you because your lesbian ex talked about what a *wonderful person* you were. They were excited about meeting you because you are—or were at least described as—a very special person. They, in fact, were interested in you, not just checking off an item on their to-do list.

And I’m really sorry for your heartache and the discomfort you felt with being approached by so many women while still dealing with it.
__________

To the main point, seems to me the basic thing is, there’s a difference between wanting marriage *when you’ve found the right person*, and wanting marriage, period. When you give yourself a timeline, you sound like you aren’t looking for the right person. Just A person. Like a green card marriage, only it’s not for residency, but some other purpose.
Unlike Amanda, I always thought marriage sounded nice for people who found someone compatible—I just never expected to find someone compatible, until I actually did. So it’s not just her being anti-marriage, which I think is in the back of the minds of some of the people criticizing her critique of this approach.
____________

But count me among those who think it’s a gimmick designed to create a book deal or at least get the blogger some fame.

Comment #90: Samantha Vimes  on  01/09  at  10:26 AM

Lets take the word “women” out of the discussion and just talk about people—sometimes people want to get married. Sometimes people want to be policepersons, or firepeople, or have a wonderful job, or frequently go on vacation, or travel the world, or have children, or have a home library. These are all things that people sometimes want to do—and sometimes they want to do them with a good friend/lover and sometimes they don’t. Why is marriage held out by (some) modern feminists as a distinct and slightly weird or solipsistic or needy thing for a man or a woman to want?  Its just one of the things that people do want—for historically contingent reasons and for emotional and physical sustenance.  Continuing to argue that people who do want a committed relationship, solemnized by marriage, are “needy” or weird or displaying an unfeminist form of femininity is, itself, kind of sexist. 

If someone told you they wanted to “get their dream job” or “get a good grade in a course” and they were giving themselves a year to do it you’d say “wow, some focus on a goal!”  If they said they wanted to get their medical degree in a year, when it takes six or eight, you’d say that was silly. But finding a life partner isn’t exactly like that so its not absurd to at least put yourself into the frame of mind and organization to do so.  Its more like fishing—the wider you cast your net the more likely you are to find the one you want.  Its a tiny bit tricky because you have to find the one you want who also wants you, but even that isn’t that different from other kinds of commitments people routinely try to make: like finding the right job, or lab partner, or whatever.

I found Mr. Aimai through the personal ads. I ran an add and he and 88 other guys answered. I dated twelve of them. There’s a huge difference between dating twelve people who are also interested in finding a permanent partner than there is in just getting up, going to work or school, and being busy.  In fact, interestingly enough, of the three guys I kept up with after I paired up with Mr. Aimai, which happened within two months of beginning dating even though we didn’t marry for 5 years,  all three were married within four years.  We were all looking for someone at the same time, and we all settled down at the same time. Its fifteen years later for me and we’re still going strong, and I believe the same is true for those other guys I dated on the ad.

But my point is this: can we stop blaming women, or men, for deciding they want something that includes a serious, long term, love affair/committment and calling it marriage? People want what they want. Its just another form of self flattery and self love to insist, if you do insist, that your own preferred form of “not dating” or “just lucking into the right person” is the only method anyone should follow to achieve their goals.  Its like someone who already speaks french criticizing someone else for going to the language lab and listening to tapes saying “if you’d just spend your summers in the south of france it would e so much easier.”  It might be easier, if we were all lucky enough to just trip and fall over the love of our lives. But it might also be rather useless advice, if we dont’ have the money or time to summer abroad. 

aimai

Comment #91: aimai  on  01/09  at  10:37 AM

Continuing to argue that people who do want a committed relationship, solemnized by marriage, are “needy” or weird or displaying an unfeminist form of femininity is, itself, kind of sexist.

Though there may be something I missed, the impression I had was that it was bad to be so consumed by being marriage-minded that the individuality of the person is ignored…..which is obvious if the topic of marriage/family/kids is broached on the very first or the first few dates as most people I know would be wondering….“How in the world can s(he) be talking about all those things if s(he) hasn’t even gotten a chance to know me yet?”

Though I never had a first date where someone was oblivious enough to broach the topics of marriage, family, and kids, I’ve had a few people whom I’ve dated which made similar mistakes in kind on the first…and thus last date by attempting to conduct prying interrogations about my personal finances upon finding out I worked in a supposed “lucrative industry.  It came across as pressuring, intrusive, and presumptuous to boot.  rolleyes

Comment #92: exholt  on  01/09  at  03:50 PM

wow, I didn’t realize I was number 91 on a dying thread. Still, I have to come back and point out that people can be weird, dating or in bars or wherever whether they are marriage minded or merely bed hopping. Personally I think if a person chatting you up feels that they need to communicate something to you about their general ideas about dating/sex right up front they should do so. Saves a ton of time. If a guy wants to tell me he’s “just into one night stands” or he “really thinks he is looking for the love of his life” that can be seen as either honest or pushy or both, kind of depends on his skill with the small talk.  Its not something that is specific to “being marriage minded” and I really think its unfair to accuse all “marriage minded” people of being crude when you seem unaware that not marriage minded people can be just as crude in a different direction.

aimai

Comment #93: aimai  on  01/09  at  04:59 PM

Though there may be something I missed, the impression I had was that it was bad to be so consumed by being marriage-minded that the individuality of the person is ignored…..which is obvious if the topic of marriage/family/kids is broached on the very first or the first few dates as most people I know would be wondering….“How in the world can s(he) be talking about all those things if s(he) hasn’t even gotten a chance to know me yet?”
Comment #92: exholt on 01/09 at 01:50 PM

I never got the impression from the 52 weeks person that she was uninterested in the individuality of the people she was meeting.  The point of meeting a bunch of them is not just to find the first one who will marry you.  It’s to find one (or more) who is interesting to you, and who finds you interesting.  If the context of meeting these people is “one night stand” then it’s unlikely to work for someone looking for a marriage partner.

Why do we not trust women to know what they want in this instance?  I don’t think those of us who read Pandagon regularly would spend any time telling a woman maybe she wants kids when she arrives at the clinic for a scheduled abortion.  I don’t remember too many of us saying that a woman who wears makeup should have it wiped off her face so she looks “natural.”  Women who choose to stay at home, or work outside the home, usually aren’t challenged individually here.

Challenging the notion that marriage is what every woman should want?  Sure.  Challenging the notion of an individual woman that she is looking to marry and is arranging her life so that this will be easier?  I don’t understand why.

As I read it, she’s not only maximizing her chance of marriage, she’s maximizing contact with men who want to marry, so she has a wider choice, making it less likely she’ll just settle.

Comment #94: oldfeminist  on  01/09  at  07:17 PM

which is obvious if the topic of marriage/family/kids is broached on the very first or the first few dates as most people I know would be wondering….“How in the world can s(he) be talking about all those things if s(he) hasn’t even gotten a chance to know me yet?”

I don’t at all disagree that that’s weird and creepy.  I had a date with a guy who did that once and I never contacted him again. 

But I also think it’s really important not to feed into the cultural bullshit that says that a woman who makes ANY demands on a hetero relationship is bound to end up miserably alone. 

I never got the impression from the 52 weeks person that she was uninterested in the individuality of the people she was meeting.  The point of meeting a bunch of them is not just to find the first one who will marry you.

Exactly.  It’s 52 weeks to find him (i.e. The One), not 52 weeks to be married.  Not saying it’s a great strategy or that I wouldn’t freak out a bit if I found out a man I was on a date with had set himself such a deadline, but it’s an important distinction nonetheless.

Comment #95: killjoy  on  01/09  at  08:45 PM

I never got the impression from the 52 weeks person that she was uninterested in the individuality of the people she was meeting.  The point of meeting a bunch of them is not just to find the first one who will marry you.  It’s to find one (or more) who is interesting to you, and who finds you interesting.  If the context of meeting these people is “one night stand” then it’s unlikely to work for someone looking for a marriage partner.

I wasn’t addressing the 52 weeks person, but aimai’s perception that Amanda’s posting is a criticism of being “marriage-minded in general rather than a critique of the larger cultural landscape where this becomes such an obsession that you forget the individuality of the person you’re dating and if topic is broached on the first date or the first few before you have had the chance to genuinely know the other person. 

Unless I am mistaken, that’s the angle Amanda was going for. 

But I also think it’s really important not to feed into the cultural bullshit that says that a woman who makes ANY demands on a hetero relationship is bound to end up miserably alone.

True.  However, aren’t there certain demands that are not appropriate to make when one has not even entered a relationship yet such as a first date or at the beginning of a relationship when a couple is still trying to get to know each other?

Such as asking about marriage/family/kids or suggesting the other partner suddenly reduce/blow-off the amount of time spent on academics/work-related stuff which s(he)‘s been working on well before the first-date/relationship?

If someone told you they wanted to “get their dream job” or “get a good grade in a course” and they were giving themselves a year to do it you’d say “wow, some focus on a goal!”

This is one case where YMMV…especially with the second part.  In most US K-12 schools…whether public/private, declaring one’s ambition of “getting good grades” is liable to make you a social outcast at best….and subject to bullying and physical violence because being a high academic achiever is considered something only nerds/geeks want…..and that’s “uncool” not only among most students in one’s grade/school…but also many parents and even some teachers.  Had a taste of this firsthand in elementary and junior high and heard so many horror stories from college classmates/friends on other campuses who suffered because they were high academic achievers.  rolleyes

Moreover, if this declaration was made at college campuses where “grade grubbing” was considered unseemly such as my undergrad, you’d be seen as acting “too mercenary” about one’s intellectual development.  Not that good grades aren’t to be admired once achieved, but there was a strong sense that it was wrong to have “good grades” as one’s stated ambition….especially when many college classmates felt the whole concept of grades were part and parcel of the bourgeois capitalist system they were railing/fighting against.  rolleyes

Comment #96: exholt  on  01/10  at  05:33 PM

The problem with “finding out if someone is into commitment” is that it’s almost always a fallacy, because it assumes that a commitment is something someone is into or not into.  What is true is most people are into or not into a specific person.  That someone is not into you is taken to mean they aren’t into commitment by people exuding that desperation, and then they get pissed off when the uncommitted person marries the next person they date.  (See “500 Days Of Summer”.) The reality is that most people’s feelings about commitment are wholly dependent on the “who” hosting reviews.

Everyone wants a way out of the process, but most ways out involve not going through the trouble of meeting someone, falling in love, being charming enough to be loved, etc. But of course, attempts to get out of treating individuals like full individuals is exactly how not to get the commitment, due to most people putting a premium on “who” over “what” low cost web hosting services.

I’m sorry that some people find it hard to communicate about what their desires and goals in life are, but in general I’ve found that if you respect people as individuals and actually bother to enjoy their company, the “whats” that you want out of a relationship tend to come up organically business hosting.  And if you find out that their goals are different, then that’s an incompatibility, and you should break it off.

Comment #97: semolina  on  01/11  at  01:30 AM
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