I’d love for this to lead to some kind of policy change for the airlines. Or a lot of policy changes. As it is, I love getting to fly, but I really hope I never have to board a plane again—just getting through the airport is unpleasant enough without having to worry about getting kicked off the plane and having to arrange lodging/transportation without your luggage.

Getting a bit sick of the fat-shaming commenters at various sites, too. The comments that bug me the most are (1) “Just exercise and eat less!” Fuck you, I’m doing that and it ain’t fucking working. (2) “It’s unpleasant to sit next to fat people on the plane!” Fuck you, self-centered prick, you need more actual pain in your life.

Southwest’s response:

Mr. Smith originally purchased two Southwest seats on a flight from Oakland to Burbank – as he’s been known to do when traveling on Southwest. He decided to change his plans and board an earlier flight to Burbank, which technically means flying standby. As you may know, airlines are not able to clear standby passengers until all Customers are boarded. When the time came to board Mr. Smith, we had only a single seat available for him to occupy. Our pilots are responsible for the Safety and comfort of all Customers on the aircraft and therefore, made the determination that Mr. Smith needed more than one seat to complete his flight. Our Employees explained why the decision was made, accommodated Mr. Smith on a later flight, and issued him a $100 Southwest travel voucher for his inconvenience.

You’ve read about these situations before. Southwest instituted our Customer of Size policy more than 25 years ago. The policy requires passengers that can not fit safely and comfortably in one seat to purchase an additional seat while traveling. This policy is not unique to Southwest Airlines and it is not a revenue generator. Most, if not all, carriers have similar policies, but unique to Southwest is the refunding of the second seat purchased (if the flight does not oversell) which is greater than any revenue made (full policy can be found here). The spirit of this policy is based solely on Customer comfort and Safety. As a Company committed to serving our Customers in Safety and comfort, we feel the definitive boundary between seats is the armrest. If a Customer cannot comfortably lower the armrest and infringes on a portion of another seat, a Customer seated adjacent would be very uncomfortable and a timely exit from the aircraft in the event of an emergency might be compromised if we allow a cramped, restricted seating arrangement.

What, as opposed to the cramped, restricted seating arrangement in place on every commercial flight I’ve ever been on, ever?
The capitalization Southwest uses bothers me.  I do not understand why Customer and Safety receive capitals, but policy does not, nor does seat.  Anyway.  As someone who’s frequently flown with small children who were of an age to use an infant seat, the infant seat makes it impossible to put the armrest down.  Nobody has as of yet suggested that babies should be turfed off planes for this reason.
If anything, I would think that the armrests would be more of an obstruction in the event of an emergency than the person occupying the seat, seeing as the person would be on their feet and heading to the exits just like anybody else.  I know I always whack a leg on the armrests when heading to the bathrooms.

Bring on the high-speed rail! Seriously, the airlines would be more responsive if they had competition in the form of another travel option altogether.

The saddest part of all this, though, is that the only lesson Southwest will take away from this—assuming they take one at all—is that famous fat people are the only fat people you don’t fuck with. Everyone else is fair game.

Pam wrote:

I’ll tell you why this is explicitly a fat-bashing issue—I find Southwest’s criteria for passenger ejection extremely flawed, since I’ve sat next to people, particularly broad shouldered athletic men who are not obese, who encroach into my space with their arms and shoulders, and many sit with their legs wide open as if they are relaxing on a couch. How is this not equivalent to “encroachment of a large seatmate?”

As one of those guys—I won’t claim the athletic part—I’ve once been seated next to someone else even bigger than me: I’m 6’2 and this guy was at least a couple of inches taller than me.  The really annoying thing was that my wife was on the same flight, but they didn’t seat us together, even though we booked together.

Smith is retelling the story from his POV right now on Twitter. You can follow him @ThatKevinSmith. It’s certainly more entertaining than “Jersey Girl.”

Men who splay out or elbow you are way, way more upsetting and discomforting than someone next to you who is spreading out from that tiny seat but generally interested in minding their own business.  First of all, they’re not poking you.  Second of all, they’re not being rude.

I just wish there was a magic universe policy to keep seatmates from talking to you after the first three times you pointedly kept reading your book.

Oo oo oo can we get a policy for people who start cuddling up to whoever’s next to them when they fall asleep? ‘Cos that shit gets fucking awkward.

The real problem is, airline seats are too damned small!

Southwest and all the other airlines need adult-sized seats - as opposed to the dinky child-sized seats that they inflict on their passengers at present - that’s the answer, not persecuting physically large passengers!

But, the airlines would have to be forced to do that, because if they had adult-sized seats, they wouldn’t be able to jam as many people into an aircraft as they do now.

Perhaps Kevin Smith can use his fame to lead a lobbying campaign, to demand that the FAA require all airlines operating in the US to have adult-sized seats.

As people have already mentionned, they wouldn’t need such a stringnent ‘passenger of size’ policy if their fucking seats weren’t so fucking small. I fly a bunch due to my competitive gaming habit (I flew once a month for the past year or so, this year might be a whole lot less) and since I am Canadian I *always* make sure to choose Air Canada for my flight (unfortunatly I often have to take 2 or 3 flights to get to where I’m going, and those aren’t Air Canada usually once I’m on American soil). I *never* am uncomfortable in any way, shape or form on Air Canada flights because they have spacious seats even in coach. Then I get on some Southwest or United flight and I feel like I’m going to be claustrophobic.

Of course Air Canada is *socialist* because it’s being subsidized by the State, which is a whole lot more evil than telling your passengers they’re Evil Fatty McFat Fat. (BTW the irony is that I’m big for a Canadian but I usually feel small when in the USA, especially in the South, so why are *we* getting the comfortable seats and you guys are stuck with seats that are barely large enough for BMI-compliant people?)

I just wish there was a magic universe policy to keep seatmates from talking to you after the first three times you pointedly kept reading your book.

AMEN. I once had a seatmate talk to me for three and a half hours straight while I tried to read. He kept talking even when I stopped looking at him or responding in any way. And yes, it was all one big pickup attempt—not a real conversation.

Now I have to extricate my memory of a douchey middle-aged male character from my memory of the actual book.

Okay, then, how *do* we deal with very large people on planes?

1. Make more room by enlarging seats. That’ll reduce profit margins even more in an industry that already struggles to stay solvent. If that happens, expect that many of us will no longer be able to afford air transportation of any kind.

2. Do nothing. Sorry, but that’s not acceptable. It’s not right that I should be mashed uncomfortably because of someone else’s girth. I don’t really care how they came to be so large.

3. Comprehensive overhaul of the transportation system. Don’t hold your breath for the political will to emerge on this one.

All this applies to the broad-sholdered and the screaming babies and the teenage horde on a school trip.

Frankly, I’d be for measures that reduce the number of people who fly. Air travel really was not meant as cheap mass transport. There should be trains for distances that would take 2 hours or less to fly. But that would be solution #3, which won’t ever happen, because of the lunatic-moron 30 percent.

This is bugging me.  I’m flying for the first time in maybe seven years cross country, and look enough like Kevin Smith that even I think I look like Kevin Smith.  Once walking down St. Mark’s Place 11 years ago when I really looked like him I was seriously confused for him.  Not flying Southwest, but still…

I used to fly all of the time (on the road 2/3 of the time for a number of years) and this never happened to me.

Maybe they should rename it as Customers of Large Girth and Small Twitter Following policy…

But if he bought two seats that’s what they should have put him on standby for…

# 15, wapsie,

I’d go with option 1, [Make more room by enlarging seats] the airlines profit margins be damned!

And if having adult-sized seats makes the airlines go bankrupt, the government can always nationalize the airlines, and those publicly subsidized airlines can have human sized seats on their planes.

All this applies to the broad-sholdered and the screaming babies and the teenage horde on a school trip.

Since “do nothing” is the response to those groups, singling out fat people is simply unfair.

And if having adult-sized seats makes the airlines go bankrupt, the government can always nationalize the airlines, and those publicly subsidized airlines can have human sized seats on their planes.

Communist treason! Where do you think this is? *CANADA*?

Airline deregulation was a terrible mistake. Discuss.

What’s there to discuss? To most of us this is a self-evidential statement, in the same sense as saying “Leaving a jar of cookies open in the middle of a preschool just before lunch is a bad idea”.

For the masters of the world, this is self-evidently false, just like it would be to the preschoolers in the above scenario.

Kevin Smith doesn’t need to buy a second seat; he buys one b/c then he has ‘first class’ type room.

He wanted to fly standby.  He fit in the seat without a seat belt extender.  He could put both arm rests down.  The person seated next to him did not complain.

Why was he removed from the flight?

Policies are one thing, and arbitrary and capricious enforcement of said policies is another.  Southwest deserves the heat they’re getting over this for not being clear or fair in enforcement.  In general, I’m very pro-SWA, but this was a screw-up due to arbitrary rule enforcement.  They only got caught THIS time b/c they did it to someone who is a public figure.  Oops.

The answer is not to double check whether or not the fat person is famous before enforcing rules.  It’s to make fair policies and enforce them consistently and fairly.

Obesity is covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act, so you can’t just say “Fuck off, fatties!  Take the train!”  Airlines are providing a public accomodation and cannot discriminate.

As for those seat belt extenders…when seat belt frays, they cut the seat belt and reposition the buckle.  To use the need for extenders as a barometer, they would need to standardize the seat belt length, which would be more expensive than putting a long length on and trimming as necessary during use.

————————-

There will be airline reform soon.

It will benefit passengers by limiting some shit like being on a tarmac forever and will probably require the airlines to carry at least one checked bag for free if they are a ‘full-service’ airline.

This ‘reform’ will not be to benefit the public, though the public will receive some benefits…airlines are charging “fees” wherever they can b/c they have to pay a federal tax on ticket price.  Everything they carve out of the ticket price and charge as a “fee” avoids a tax and puts money directly in their pockets.

The Feds will not put up with that much longer.  It will look like a populist response, but it will really be ‘tax reform’ for the airlines.

——————
Ugh.  The teenage horde on a field trip. 

During an evil time in my life I had to fly to BWA every week.  6:00am flight, which entailed me getting up at 4am every Monday, flying in, driving for 2 hours, and then working until 10 pm or later every night.

I went to sleep as soon as I buckled into my seat.  Wouldn’t wake up till touchdown.

Unless the teenage horde was joining me to DC.  The noise!  The noise, noise noise noise NOISE! /grinch

I used to fly over 100,000 miles/year on business. I grew to hate all airlines with the burning passion of ten thousand Super Novas!
I just said F.U. and bought my own airplane. I fly myself on anything under 1000 miles these days.
If its over 1000 miles, I don’t go.

I don’t know how big Kevin Smith is. But some people are too big to be held in any reasonably-sized seat. I’m talking about the phenomenon I call the “man-mountain.” The last time was a few summers ago, when I was in Chicago. My wife and I went to a White Sox game, in the first of the wave of modern ballparks.  But a person of normal size was sitting in my seat. He apologized, and pointed out that the guy he was supposed to sit next to was so huge that he lopped over the armrests and intruded into a third of each of the two adjacent seats. (The seat that the man-mountain had paid for was big enough to contain his lower torso.) Applying the airline policy meant the man-mountain would have had to buy three seats.

The westward displacement of rightful seat holders continued until someone was bumped and the usher summoned. She sized up (ha!) the situation, realized nothing could be done, and seated the last party somewhere else.

I feel a strong urge to complain to a flight attendant next time I’m seated next to a tall and broad shouldered man - except I don’t want to embarrass the innocent party next to me just to make a point.  But this is ridiculous and I hope it costs SWA as much money and embarrassment as possible.

http://www.seatguru.com/ is a great site for learning about the seating on various flights.

I’m one of these guys with broad shoulders…  I barely fit in some business class seats, and in coach I need to fly with my arms bent forward and shoulders bent forward to fit in a seat.  From shoulder to shoulder my width is 22 inches. 

Southwest has 17-inch seat widths, and 32-33 inches between rows.  Put me in the aisle, and someone with similar width in the window, and either the person in the middle has 7 inches, or I’m leaning out into the aisle all flight.

Delta’s international business class when I flew to Argentina in 2006 has a seat width of 18.5-inches.

In December, 1996, I flew across the country to my parents’ 40th wedding anniversary party; I booked late and ended up in a middle seat.  I got off the airplane with back spasms and was in pain for much of the visit; after that my physician advised that “whenever possible avoid coach seating.”  Good luck with that flying in the United States, unless you’re quite wealthy.

Purpleshoes FTW. In a good number of the cases, the guys I sat with didn’t have extraordinary long legs that forced the splaying, so ball aeration may need to go under the ADA as a necessity.

The solution is definitely wider seats.  But how wide is wide enough?  There will always be someone who doesn’t fit, and that’s only part of the problem.  Those men who splay their legs just might be too tall for there isn’t much legroom either.  I’m 6’1” and it must be too much to ask that I be able to sit without having my knees in my chin during a flight.  I would try to get a seat in one of those rows with an emergency exit, but I worry about the implications of asking for such a thing in today’s hyper-secure environment.  I want more legroom, not an interview with Homeland Security.

(Yes, I know there are dorks who sit like that all the time.  I do the humane thing and cross one calf over the other knee, and switch back and forth.  It really isn’t comfortable to sit with my legs crossed at the knee, plus that’s bad for circulation.)

The real answer is lots of seats of different sizes.  It’s easier than trying a one-size solution, because there is no one right size.  Tall, thin, short, and fat people should all fit on subsidized transportation, even if they aren’t rich as well.

I have a friend.  He’s been 400 pounds, but he’s also over six and a half feet tall.  Most of it in his torso.  He never, ever flies.  And it’s not just that he likes to drive (he does, he even does sport/cruise/offroad motorcycling and bicycling.)  Yeah, often he’s out of shape.  But no diet in the world will make him fit in those seats.

I don’t fit in a SW seat.  I hate flying that airline.  It has the most intolerable people flying it - families, for the most part, with more children than adults.  Ugh.  I’m under 200 pounds and 5’10”.

They offer a system which I don’t like, but is a valid option.  But people should be protected from capricious application of policy, famous or not.

Purpleshoes, I love your comment. I HATE this phenomenon. And, 3letterjon, you’re wrong. My biggest problems with this issue have been with men my height (5’7”) or so. Most were well under 6’. It’s a bullshit, nonverbal power trip…

I rectified a particularly irritating encounter with such douchebaggery by noting to the offender that “they weren’t that big and he could most likely close his legs a bit without causing permanent damage.”

Had to be done…He closed his legs and shut his mouth for the rest of the flight. Bliss…

Policies are one thing, and arbitrary and capricious enforcement of said policies is another.  Southwest deserves the heat they’re getting over this for not being clear or fair in enforcement.

And as Smith pointed out in a later tweet, there’s really not much you can do to protest said treatment while on the plane, because then you’re venturing into “interfering with a flight crew” domain, which gets federal officials involved. All this incident has done for me is reminded me why I never fly if there’s another option.

Wapsie:

It’s not right that I should be mashed uncomfortably because of someone else’s girth. I don’t really care how they came to be so large.

What Scott said right at the start of the thread:

Fuck you, self-centered prick, you need more actual pain in your life.

Also, where’s Phylosopher to start lecturing us on our eating habits? You can’t have a Fattie McFat wank on Pandagon without that self-righteous douche.

Perhaps phylosopher recognizes that the common hatred for the airlines trumps hatred for fat people. I mean, like I said, I’m not thin but I have no problem flying on Air Canada in coach. SWA, United, AA, they all have such small seats and little passenger room in comparison that I don’t understand why riots haven’t occurred yet.

If you’re plus size it’s just even more of a problem, but nobody is actually comfortable in those coach flights.

Hmm - have never had any problems flying to Brisbane, and I’m not exactly svelte.  Is anyone in a position to compare US domestic carriers from airlines such as AIr New Zealand and Ansett - are the domestic carriers deliberately more crowded?

As for those seat belt extenders…when seat belt frays, they cut the seat belt and reposition the buckle.  To use the need for extenders as a barometer, they would need to standardize the seat belt length, which would be more expensive than putting a long length on and trimming as necessary during use.

Not so much.  Trimming and reusing frayed seatbelts would be so illegal it’s not even funny.  Any airline that did that would be out of business so fast your head would spin.  As a licensed manufactured aircraft part, the seatbalt cannot legally be modified; if it’s at all damaged it’s replaced.  FAA safety rules are incredibly strict about that sort of thing.  Different manufacturers have different specifications, and length isn’t universal, but once it’s in place it’s there until it’s replaced. 

WRT safety- the main issue is whether people can easily get out of the seats and through the aisles in an emergency, and if someone is incapacitated, whether people can move around them.  I am willing to bet that legitimate safety issues are at least a part of the concern, although playing to the general public’s fears and prejudices most likely factor heavily (no pun intended, sorry).

Hmm - have never had any problems flying to Brisbane, and I’m not exactly svelte.  Is anyone in a position to compare US domestic carriers from airlines such as AIr New Zealand and Ansett - are the domestic carriers deliberately more crowded?

Short answer- yes.  They pack more in when the flight is shorter, on the theory that people can stand it for a little while.  Major carriers use different planes for domestic and international.  The international planes have more room per seat.

The seats on the airlines are just too damn small. I’m not a particularly large person, 5’6”, 180 but even when I wayed a lot less I had problems fitting into the seats because my legs are pretty long. No matter what my knees hit the seat in front of me.

I have a feeling that increasing the seat size is not going to make airlines go bankrupt - they are doing that all on their own even with the current tiny seats. And, I’ve been flying a looong time - the seats didn’t used to be that small. They used to be bigger!

Oops weighed even.

There is so much to dislike—okay, *hate*—about Southwest, and that’s before you even get on board.  A couple of years ago, I wrote about that ridiculous incident where they made the young woman in a short skirt cover her legs with a blanket because her outfit was “inappropriate” or something.  This from an airline that only a few years prior to that was outfitting its female flight attendants in micro-minis and streetwalker boots, and which all but promoted a hook-up culture with ad tag-lines that suggested passengers could find dates on board, and which served snacks and drinks dubbed “love bites” and “love potions” (ostensibly playing on the name of their home-base airport), and so on.  Of course, all the libertarians shrieked at me for criticizing a private company they felt should be able to determine who can use their product and service and who cannot, never mind that they selectively enforce the notion of appropriate dress, with one set of rules for an attractive young woman in a short skirt and another for men wearing tank tops that display their armpit hair in all its sweaty glory—guess who gets to board sans harassment?

And now this.  Sigh.  I totally sympathize with Mr. Smith, who obviously tried to play by their rules yet still got harassed and mistreated.  At 5” 8” and 118 lbs. I’m relatively light, but even *I* find Southwest’s goddamned seats miserably uncomfortable.  Not only are the rows much too close together, meaning my knees will get thumped into the seat in front of me unless I sit bolt-upright, but if I’m on a full flight—and are there any other kind these days?—and even one of my seat-mates is remotely broad-shouldered or in constant need of testicle aeration, I wind up being laterally crunched, too.  They’ve stripped virtually all upholstery from the seats, too, which means yet more misery for a bony spine and butt.  Pillows?  They did away with those.  Oh, and when I was pregnant, it was always such joy to have the person in front lower his seat back La-Z-boy style, his skull looming over my highly-sensitive baby-bump with millimeters to spare, which creates its own special anxiety (mothers know what I’m talking about).

Sadly, once deregulation took effect, airlines realized there was money to be made by arranging the cabin as though they were setting up folding chairs for a low-budget shotgun wedding that just happened to be held in a winged sardine can.

And please don’t tell me, or Kevin Smith, or anyone else who finds these seats to be inhumane that we should shut up and spend more for first or business class, then, or else fly a different airline.  Southwest doesn’t have first or business class, and more often than not, I’ve found, they are the only option available unless one wants to make two plane-changes and spend the entire day in airports.

SUPERTRAINS!

Every square inch of space is a precious commodity on airplanes.  The extra size translates to higher material costs (more expensive planes) and higher fuel costs.  But you know what can be just about as wide and comfy as you like and cost the carrier a fraction more?  Supertrains!

Just one more reason to push a high-speed rail system in the United States.

I became aware of Southwest’s COUS (Customer of Unusual Size) policy due to their short-lived reality-TV show, “The Airline.”  That’s when I resolved not to fly Southwest, ever.  I can’t afford to pay for two seats.

I’ve noticed some differences between different types of planes’ seatbelt sizes.  Some older planes and especially the small Brazilian regional jets have shorter seatbelts.

Anyway, I’ve given up flying this year.  It’s just too much of a hassle and too uncomfortable.

And please don’t tell me, or Kevin Smith, or anyone else who finds these seats to be inhumane that we should shut up and spend more for first or business class, then, or else fly a different airline.  Southwest doesn’t have first or business class, and more often than not, I’ve found, they are the only option available unless one wants to make two plane-changes and spend the entire day in airports.

Not to mention the obscene price discrepancy between First / Business and Coach.  It’s ridiculous to suggest you should have to shell out twice as much for the same flight because of a handful of “luxury” amenities that make the trip bearable.  Even if SW did offer an upper class, now you’re placing - what exactly?  An excise tax on anyone taller or wider than a 12-year-old?  At 6’2”, I’m still waiting for someone to charge me extra every time my head clips the cabin ceiling.

It’s always staggeringly obnoxious to hear glibertarian prats whine about corporate rights, as though compelling a multi-billion dollar industry to shell out a few extra bucks up front to make the flying experience less claustrophobic is the ultimate act of Stalinist villainy.

I’m convinced these people are either midgets, sadists, or idiots.

Obviously the solution to everyone’s problems is to make the damn seats larger.  Even when I was thin as a teenager, the seats were too small to be comfortable.  Airlines make seats tiny to try to cram in more passengers, but it’s counter-productive.  Air travel sucks so bad that plenty of people avoid it as much as possible.  I think a lot more people would be willing to fly if we had comfortable seats and other small comforts.  Soon I’ll have to fly for work and I’m dreading it, but it’s too far to take a train or bus.

As for sitting next to large people, well I’d rather do that than sit next to someone like waspie, who is most likely selfish and arrogant.  There are plenty of rude people who can’t keep their elbows to themselves, or who feel entitled to take the whole armrest, or simply play their music so loud that I can hear every word clearly through their headphones.  All of those things are much worse than sitting next to a large person, and I’ll bet that waspie is exactly the type of person who does those things.

It’s always staggeringly obnoxious to hear glibertarian prats whine about corporate rights…
I’m convinced these people are either midgets, sadists, or idiots.

Zifnab, I’m guessing all three?

Surely it’s time for government to impose a few regulations of the comfort, safety, and er, hygiene variety on airlines.  The cabins—and oh God, the bathrooms—are uncompromisingly filthy these days; is that not a health hazard?  If too many people are crammed too closely together and there is an “incident” requiring rapid deplaning but some people are so squashed in, they wind up getting trampled, is that not a health hazard?  If seats are stripped of virtually all padding and support, and there is an “incident” and people suffer spinal injuries, is that not a health hazard?

Incidentally, my race-car driving husband tells me the best kind of seatbelts, the kind that will actually protect one in a high-speed collision, are the five-point harness variety that have two shoulder straps, two hip straps, and one that goes between the legs; next-best are are the shoulder-and-lap-belt kind required in automobiles.  Simple lap-belts, he says, are likely to snap your spine in two than anything else.  He thinks they make you wear them so you won’t levitate during turbulence, or maybe because they want to get you to sit still, like unruly kids in a classroom, because they sure won’t do much to protect your spine and neck in an actual crash.  I have to agree.

I’m a thoroughly average sized person (5’11, 185 lbs) and I find most airline seats to be very uncomfortable.

And, again, the answer is still “Supertrain.”

He thinks they make you wear them so you won’t levitate during turbulence, or maybe because they want to get you to sit still, like unruly kids in a classroom, because they sure won’t do much to protect your spine and neck in an actual crash.  I have to agree.

Well, it’s not like you’re going to fly through a windshield.  I suppose that’s one point in favor of being packed in like sardines.  You really don’t have very far you can get flung.

The real answer is lots of seats of different sizes.

This is something I’ve wondered about. For a start, have two rows of economy seats that are wider and with more space between the rows and seat people in them who are tall, fat, pregnant, of reduced mobility and so on (that is, more like first class seats, but no post reclining or the other perks). Make them requestable but not guaranteed on booking - if you’re 6’7” or 20 stone when you turn up you’ll get one. If you’re 6’1” or 14 stone, you may get bumped back to ordinary seats depending on demand. If you’re travelling with children, they go in the row behind or with your partner. The airline only loses a couple of seats, the people who find standard seats inadequate are more comfortable, and the complainers have to find something else to complain about (which they will).

The only problem is that it would require airline staff to be sensitive and exercise good judgement in dealing with passengers, and passengers to accept that sometimes they won’t get the bigger seats because others need them more, so obviously it’s a complete non-starter. And it would do nothing about Mr Melon-Balls.

librit @40:

Choosing another airline (or another mode of transportation) is *exactly* what people need to do if they find Southwest’s service or policies unpleasant.  Southwest is a discount airline that gets by on smartly-negotiated fuel contracts and small margins.  In some ways, it’s the Wal-Mart of the air travel industry.

They’re offering you very basic air travel a low price.  You have the choice of taking a cheap, direct flight in a small, uncomfortable seat, or a more expensive flight with a layover and a slightly less uncomfortable seat.  Or taking a train, or driving, or not going at all.

I’m not sure what you think the other alternative is - regulate Southwest out of existence?  Maybe it’s a good idea… but how do you justify it?

Trimming and reusing frayed seatbelts would be so illegal it’s not even funny.  Any airline that did that would be out of business so fast your head would spin.  As a licensed manufactured aircraft part, the seatbalt cannot legally be modified; if it’s at all damaged it’s replaced.  FAA safety rules are incredibly strict about that sort of thing.  Different manufacturers have different specifications, and length isn’t universal, but once it’s in place it’s there until it’s replaced.

I’m not so sure about that.  Length isn’t universal on the same airline/airplane.  It varies widely.

My husband is in the top level of the frequent flier program, and as a big guy sometimes has a lot of play in the belts and sometimes has very little.  The big perk is that his bags are free and he always gets upgraded to first class—where seat belt size still varies.

I just rode American next to two thin, neat gentlemen.  I had the aisle, and I still felt like I had NO ROOM.

I’m not skinny anymore, but I’m still under 5’3”.  If I feel crowded, there’s something seriously wrong with the airplanes.

Of course, it doesn’t help when the person in front decides to crank her seat all the way back while we’re still climbing.  Damn near hit me in the head.

Don’t recline all the way.  Yes, the chairs can do it, but it’s just plain rude.

Nineveh @48:

This seems like exactly the right approach.  The key would be to not price the seats differently, like classes, but to actually offer them to people based on their needs.  The problem with first/business/coach is that it’s too expensive for a lot of people to buy two coach seats or to upgrade to the next class when all they need is a seat that’s a few percent bigger.

Of course, it wouldn’t work in practice, because you’d actually have to have people single themselves out and admit that they’re too big for a normal seat, which given the stigma placed on that sort of thing, would mean a lot of people wouldn’t do it.  And then you’d still have airline staff singling people out and putting them in the “fat people section”, and there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.  (Never mind deciding who to give preference to between the tiny pregnant woman, the 6’4” athlete, and the plain-old chubby person.)

Unfortunately given the margins of the airline business right now, their entire business model seems to be based around “nickel and dime them and make their lives as hellish as possible because our competitors are doing it too.”  The seats have always been child-sized and crappy, but now you can’t even get a bite to eat or a fricking blanket or pillow on a four, five, EIGHT hour domestic flight (Dallas to Honolulu, for reference.  And since it’s “domestic” none of the extra amenities for international flights apply.  Even though NY-London is shorter).  I have flown every airline out there, there is no difference.  Except United will charge you extra to sit in an exit row for a couple extra inches of legroom.  It just keeps getting more and more ridiculous.  The only reason they stay in business at all is because there are no other viable options for traveling long distances, and if you really really want to travel somewhere (or your job makes you, or its the only way you can see your family once a year) you have to accept this torture as part of the entry fee.

This seat model looks like it might help somewhat, at least with the staggered seats you are more likely to have something that is yours.  http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/ts_cozysuite.html

But honestly I’m with the people who say we need high speed rail.  If mass air transit in HUMANE conditions isn’t economically feasible then we need to focus our efforts on something that is.  Unfortunately the dying dinosaurs in the airline industry throw shit fits if we propose a rail system that is anywhere near what Europe or Asia has.  Heck, even the plan Obama unveiled has major gaps (like no rail between Dallas and Houston - WTF) and is massively slow compared to trains in Europe, China, and Japan.

The cabins—and oh God, the bathrooms—are uncompromisingly filthy these days; is that not a health hazard?

We flew to Hawaii this fall for our long-delayed honeymoon and as we walked onto the plane, we could smell the lavatories.  From the front of the plane.  And there was NO air conditioning.  At all.  We got to spend 6 hours like that.  (Plus I got to sit next to a big guy the whole time, but he did at least try to be polite.  He even blocked my view of his DVD player a bit so I wouldn’t have to look at the naked boobies in 300 against my will.)  And they ran out of food halfway there so you couldn’t even purchase anything.

This was on Delta, by the way, which last I heard was not a discount airline.  I was glad we hadn’t decided to splurge on first class tickets, because I would have been pissed.

Oh, and I’m 5’2” and normal weight (BMI 24) and I don’t fit in Southwest’s seats.  This is not a problem of the oversized.

I know that Southwest just got a lot of crap for their policy, but they are not the only airline with a policy like this.

Most of the U.S. domestic carriers have policies about fatter passengers that they can choose to enforce or not at will and which they don’t enforce consistently.

It’s all well and good to say don’t fly, and if there were a high-speed rail option in place I’d certainly not fly to anywhere I could get to even in a long day of travel, but right now, it would take me about 36 hours to get to the house of my dearest college friend via train.

Most of the U.S. domestic carriers have policies about fatter passengers that they can choose to enforce or not at will and which they don’t enforce consistently.

As Caren said, it’s that inconsistency that’s the really big problem.  If the airlines had an exact policy—like, oh, you have to be able to fasten the seat belt and put the arms down—and then stuck to it, people would be able to adjust.  But knowing that you can conform to their policy and they can throw you off the plane anyway must be absolutely maddening.

Whenever I read about this sort of thing, I’m mystified: don’t the offenders know and love anyone who could be singled out for ill treatment under this policy?  I do, and my first reaction was dread that any of them might be treated this way.  Any of them has more of a moral right to move about the world unharassed than some unimaginative asshole has to draw self-righteous mouth breath beside them for the length of a domestic flight.  Indeed, wapsie, the world is full of people too inconsiderate to run a mile every morning on the off-chance that they will someday occupy the absurdly small seat next to you on an airplane.  Something, I agree, is just not right.

Oh, and I’m 5’3”—and the last time I had occasion to fly, I was coming off a year of weight loss from illness.  I was teeny.  And I find small spaces cozy.  The seats were still inexcusable.

Amen to high-speed rail.  I am wide and tall, and I swear I’m 2” shorter when I arrive after having my knees crammed into the seat in front of me for hours. 

I’m traveling from Seattle to DC in a couple of weeks, and I’m fortunate to have the time to take Amtrak (3 days each way), because there’s NO WAY that I’m going to fly that distance, having to transfer at least twice, and risking being put off the plane at EVERY transfer.

It happened to my sister-in-law recently; she and her husband booked side-by-side seats, but the airline messed up their reservation, and they were going to make her buy a second seat when she checked in.  They finally changed their seats, but once she was on the plane, she saw that the plane wasn’t even full, so there was no reason for the airline to try to force her to buy a second seat. She was humiliated, and I swore that I would rather walk then fly unless there was NO other option.

And to waspie and other trolls who think that large = not worthy of respect, remember that a large person is WELL aware that others think they take up too much room, and generally - unless they’re just rude - will do their best to minimize other’s discomfort.  I would rather scrunch up, lean in the isle (with the resultant bruises from the drinks cart), and generally make myself miserable in order to not encroach upon my neighbor’s space.  How about showing some humanity, if it’s not too much trouble?

Why has no one expressed concern that this talented, funny, smart man is going to die in his 40s from what he’s doing to his body? He’s morbidly, break-a-sweat-from-talking obese.

I saw him on a Canadian talk show, talking about COP OUT, and it was painful to see him running with sweat. He carries all his weight around his midsection and thighs; that’s the classic heart-attack build.

Humiliating as this is, I hope it is a wake up call to him, for his little daughter’s sake.

I’m 4’ 11’ (almost) and if I feel most airline seats are cramped nightmares, I can’t imagine which adults they’re supposed to accomodate.

Oh boy! Concern troll @59 is CONCERNED! I was starting to think something had gone horribly wrong in the world, with a thread of almost 60 comments staying more or less on topic with no very concerned derailments.

@zifnab Just wanted to point out that referring to anyone as a “midget” is pretty offensive. I know you didn’t mean anything by it, just fyi for the future. Anyway, I am 5’3”, my BMI is 29. Most airline seats are quite large enough for me, it doesn’t hurt that my legs are very short. That said, southwest seats are too damn narrow. And southwest is horrible in general, uncomfortable, poor service, that damn first come first serve system..

You know, this is actually a good argument for nationalizing one or two of the larger carriers a la Amtrak. My opinion on corporate bailouts basically amounts to “only companies of major strategic or infrastructure interest and only with major conditions attached.” That’s how the bank bailouts should have been handled and how the auto bailouts more or less were handled.

The airlines, I think, fall under the infrastructure category and therefore should be subject to much tighter regulation (if it was practical I’d suggest even running them as nonprofits or nationalizing them when they hit the skids). All this is by way of saying yes, deregulation was a bad idea.

Sorry, but anyone complaining about SW’s policy should volunteer on every flight to sit next to the obese person.  Put your money where your mouth is.

I just wish there was a magic universe policy to keep seatmates from talking to you after the first three times you pointedly kept reading your book.

Headphones. You don’t even have to be actually listening to music—just put them on and people bug off. I do it all the time on flights/the train, and even just walking on the street when I don’t want to be hassled by solicitors or panhandlers.

I really have to disagree with the folks who are calling for some kind of train system to replace air travel.

Airlines replaced railroad travel for a reason - this is a huge country and even the fastest train takes way too long to travel long distances (I took a train to Cleveland once - 14 HOURS is a long time, especially when a plane can make that trip in 2 hours).

This is not Germany, or France, or Japan, or South Korea - all very small countries compared to America (that’s why they can have long distance passenger rail travel and we can’t - “long distance” in Germany is a lot different than it is here)

No matter how fast the trains run, this is a cold hard reality - that’s why, in the 1950’s, air travel took the top end of the long distance travel market, cars took the middle segment and Greyhound and Trailways took the bottom of the market.

Railroads are good for hauling large amounts of cargo for long distances along fixed routes (like the dedicated trains that haul coal from the mines of Wyoming to the power plants of Chicago) - but for passenger travel, anything beyond commuter travel is too time consuming and impractical to be viable.

What we need is reregluated air travel with humane conditions for passengers - not some pipedream about rail travel.

This is not Germany, or France, or Japan, or South Korea - all very small countries compared to America (that’s why they can have long distance passenger rail travel and we can’t - “long distance” in Germany is a lot different than it is here)

But there are REGIONS of the USA that are as densely populated as those countries—like the Northeast.

I’m not sure what you think the other alternative is - regulate Southwest out of existence?  Maybe it’s a good idea… but how do you justify it?

Dave @49—Did I say regulate them out of existence?  I don’t think anyone here is calling for that.  Just some sensible, health & safety/comfort regs like seats that offer a bit of support, a reasonable amount of leg room so that deep-vein thrombosis doesn’t set in, and toilets that are cleaned regularly.

As for cheap, yes, SW are cheap.  We all get that.  But I think many people would willingly pay a bit more—not double or triple the cost, as is the case with first class or buying two seats, but a reasonable amount—in exchange for the aforementioned “luxuries” of decent-sized seating, less-crowded cabins, and clean toilets, but again, there are no alternatives out of Florida that don’t, in most cases, require two stops and/or plane changes, or I’d freaking take them.  Trains?  Out of Florida?  Yeah, the president was here a while ago talking stimulus and high-speed rail.  I can’t wait.  But that will be years and years from now, perhaps longer if the opposition get their way.

I suppose now you’re going to suggest that I move away from Florida?

The problem with slanging Southwest is that, now that the legacy airlines have cut service and amenities while charging fees for everything they can, Southwest is now the airline of choice by comparison.

After far too many cross country flights in an MD-80, I find Southwest’s 737 seats exceedingly comfortable. And far fewer Southwest cabin staff seem embittered by their plight.

there are no alternatives out of Florida

Florida the peninsular state? Not alternative universe Florida, I hope. Because Southwest doesn’t even fly to Miami Florida.

Your best bet would seem to be American.  Delta, United, and US Air are other alternatives.

I fly a lot and it’s never a completely comfortable experience. If someone’s thigh is touching mine, I don’t get worked up about it because it’s *not a big deal.* Why make yourself so upset over physical contact? If my seat neighbour is dominating the armrest, I say something like, “Hey, mind if we share the armrest?” I’ll say something to people who sit all splayed out as if they were relaxing at home, to people who recline their seats into my knees, to people who start sleeping/snoring on my shoulder, etc. Whatever.

Only one person has refused to cooperate with me: one guy wouldn’t pull his seat up just a bit because he said he tall and needed more room. It was amusing when we landed, stood up next to each other and I looked down at him and said, “I think you overestimate your height, my friend.” (I’m a 6’1” tall woman, he was maybe 5’9”.)

Until the airlines start treating us with some humanity, we should treat fellow travelers like they’re real people. Talk to them. Relax. Don’t be weird about it and, in all likelihood, it’ll work out.

I’m really torn on this issue, because it really is a pain to sit next to someone who doesn’t fit in their own seat, and Southwest is so affordable because they cram so many passengers onto a flight… I understand the fat-shaming issue and all the rest, but yeah—those are small seats, and they’re small because they’re quite cheap.

Huh. I don’t have a good answer for this.

Gregory:

Keeping in mind a number of factors—fuel costs, frustration with the TSA, occasional need to carry prohibitively large amounts of luggage, occasional desire for sightseeing travel—rail will inevitably become a more attractive alternative for many people because of simple economy of scale.

It’s not an either-or proposition anyway—it’s like energy policy. We need everything we can get to replace coal and diesel—trash burning, solar, wind, geothermal, nuclear. Promoting one to the exception of others doesn’t do anyone any favors.

But knowing that you can conform to their policy and they can throw you off the plane anyway must be absolutely maddening.

But Smith supposedly didn’t conform to the policy, he couldn’t get both armrests down.

I recognize that most overweight people who don’t conform to the policy probably aren’t *that* big, at least not to the point that they’re practically sitting on their neighbors, but there are people out there who are that big, who literally take up one and a half to two seats.  At what point does the airline determine whether someone’s too big to squeeze into one seat?  The seatbelt and armrest rule seems as good an arbitrary rule as any, especially since the only other alternative is weighing or, even worse, measuring large passengers.  I would find that infinitely more humiliating than the armrest rule.

Humiliating as this is, I hope it is a wake up call to him, for his little daughter’s sake.

I’m pretty sure that “little” daughter is practically a teenager.  Go away.

Because Southwest doesn’t even fly to Miami Florida.  Your best bet would seem to be American.  Delta, United, and US Air are other alternatives.

@ Hector B.—Not for an awful lot of the cities to which I had to fly.  Not without making a couple of connections or plane changes (sheesh, I’m feeling that stuck-record feeling…excuse me, stuck CD, ha).  To New York, DC, or Chicago, sure—plenty of options.  Also, I’m not in Miami.  Did you know there are other cities in Florida?

Oh, and for what it’s worth, how the hell come they don’t build an Acela triangle between New York, Chicago, and DC?

I actually came up with a bit of an idea on how to do it. Starting in Boston, you’d have a western route through western MA and upstate New York, to Buffalo, Rochester, Cleveland, Chicago, with another route out of NYC going to Pittsburgh and Columbus before heading to Chicago. The southern route would go something like DC-Hampton Roads-Cincinatti-Indianapolis-Chicago. After all that, from there you could build long-haul routes from Chicago to Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and Los Angeles (hitting St. Louis along the southern routes and Minneapolis-St. Paul along the northern routes).

(In fact, a due south route to Louisiana and Texas would be a very good idea as well.)

Oh Dan, I’m hurt.  No really, I am.

Pablo at #64: I have flown cross-country every year for the past 12 years, round-trip, with up to two hyperactive children every damn time.  What the hell inconvenience could there possibly be from sitting next to a large person that would make the flight less relaxing than that?

Did you know there are other cities in Florida?

There are towns, and there is Disney World. Miami’s the only city I’m familiar with.

GregoryAButler, China has an extensive high speed rail system with some of the fastest trains in the world-200mph. Furthermore, high speed rail connects most of the European continent, making it a viable way to travel not just within germany or France but between these countries.  Rail is slow in the U.S. - slower than a car in many cases.  But it doesn’t have to be.  It could at least be a viable alternative to air travel for regional flights.  If we could get a 150 mph train between Dallas and Houston it would take 2 hours to get there.  MUCH faster than driving and arguably about the same as flying when you consider how early you have to get there.  Dallas to Chicago is about 965 miles, a high speed train could do that in less than 7 hours whereas a plane takes around 3.5.  Yet if the train actually has adult human sized seats, ability to get up and walk around, restaurant, sleeping car available if overnight, I’d much rather take the train.

pablo, like I said, I’ve sat next to people a lot fatter than Smith on planes, and as long as they kept to themselves, I had no problem with it.  I don’t mind someone’s hip tissue next to mine nearly as much as someone who decides they’re going to act like this is the armchair at home and put elbows and shoulders and knees into my space.

We could build a transcontinental railroad!!

I’m pretty sure that “little” daughter is practically a teenager.  Go away

Oh, it’s cool to lose your dad to a totally preventable death so long as you’re a teenager.

Listen, I’m a huge fan from way, way back when and have the “WE GOT YOUR MONEY AGAIN, YOU FUCKS!” Vulgarthon 2000 T-shirt to prove it. (Which is why I think of her as a little kid; Harley was there and she was tiny and adorable.)  I love the man. For a time, during those dial-up days of the View-Askew board, dude was a hero and something of an internet-friend.

The story here isn’t “HOW AWFUL is SouthWest?!” The story is (especially after listening to the rationalization-filled Smodcast) “Will Kevin wake up and see that the number on the scale means he’s gonna die?”

Oh boy! Concern troll @59 is CONCERNED! I was starting to think something had gone horribly wrong in the world, with a thread of almost 60 comments staying more or less on topic with no very concerned derailments.

How could you NOT be concerned about a funny, smart, talented man who is awfully unhealthy and pushing 40? He chain-smokes, is well over 330lbs and, I can tell you from standing next to him, is shorter than me.

On the Smodcast, he’s saying, “I’m not John Candy-level YET, guys..” But he really is. Candy died at 44, and Kevin is 39 and smokes like a chimney.

I won’t turn this into a fight, because I can see that you might not know it from text, but I AM concerned as hell about him.

Um, China also has 1.5 billion people and a very high population density since most of the interior is uninhabitable.

The other two developed countries that are the size of continents—Canada and Australia—dont have any high speed rail, either.

Now we will have it in REGIONS of the USA someday but it will never be viable outside of places like Boston to DC or Dallas-Austin-Houston.

Amanda and Ledasmom-that’s your prerogative, but when I buy a ticket I want the full 18 inches of space that I paid for.  Incidentally, Smith knew from the start that he was too big per SW’s policy. He had purchased two tickets for himself on a different SW flight, but then decided he wanted to fly on this SW flight that had no adjacent seat available for him.

And, hell, if I’m not in a big hurry I prefer Amtrak even when its not high speed to flying. You can stretch out, play games on your laptop, go to the cafe car and have a beer, watch the scenery pass by etc, I find it much more relaxing than flying or driving.

I really have to disagree with the folks who are calling for some kind of train system to replace air travel.

I think we need an alternative for short hops.  There’s absolutely no reason why it should take 10 hours to get from Los Angeles to San Francisco by train when you can drive yourself there in 8 hours.  I think having trains to destinations within a radius of about 500 miles would be completely practical as an alternative to flying if we had high-speed trains.  Between driving to the airport, getting through security, waiting for the plane, etc., five hours station-to-station from LA to San Francisco would be pretty comparable.

Except, of course, that the women sitting next to Smith had no problem with his body and he put the seat rests down.

Most bureaucrats are nice people, but occasionally you run against a bitter asshole willing to exploit the rules to lash out against people they don’t like.  That appears to be what happened here, and since the policy singles out fat people—-and not anyone else who takes up more than their 18 inches—-it was a rule practically designed for this discrimination against people who really can’t change their physique between when they book the ticket and get on the flight, even if they start training for the marathon.

jdobbin, do you think everyone should pass a health test to get on a plane?  Should you prove that you don’t smoke, don’t eat junk at all, get your recommended exercise, don’t drink very much, and wash your hands after you use the bathroom?

If so, how do you think that humiliating people on planes is the best solution to their health problems?

Hector B!  There’s Jacksonville.  They even have a professional football team. 

So does Tampa!

And, no, concerntroll#2, the story is not Kevin Smith is fat.  The story is airlines need to be reregulated because, yet again, the pursuit of the dollar and profit is trumping treating people like human beings.

I like SWA b/c they still take bags for free.  They’re the discount airline, but they still give out snack packs.  Full service airlines are offering NOTHING in comparison or for the extra money.  All the airlines are being run as “discount” brands now.

American is trying to make everyone pay $50 to fly standby.  Remember, they pack every flight as full as they can, so if there are open seats, it actually behooves the airline to shift flyers from later flights to earlier ones.  It gives them more room in case something happens during in the day.

They’re assholes.  I think they can tell that they’re in a bad spot and that reregulation, if not nationalization, is in their futures, so, like the banks, they’re trying to squeeze every possible penny out of their passengers before that time.

Again, new regulations are coming b/c carving out items and calling them “fees” exempts them from taxes.  Feds aren’t going to let that continue.  Full service flights will be required to cover at least one checked bag, and that cost will go back into the ticket price where it belongs (and will then be taxed).

He was already seated with the armrests down? Maybe the pilot just doesn’t like his movies and threw him off for the easiest reason of which they could think. That’s the most reasonable explanation of which I can think, given the circumstances.

dobbin, do you think everyone should pass a health test to get on a plane?  Should you prove that you don’t smoke, don’t eat junk at all, get your recommended exercise, don’t drink very much, and wash your hands after you use the bathroom?
If so, how do you think that humiliating people on planes is the best solution to their health problems?

There are no easy answers here. This is an awful, awful humiliating situation, like if someone tells you you have to leave work because you smell. How do you broach that?

I’m just saying that the issue here with Smith is one of real denial. (Hey, I’m fat, but I’m not JOHN CANDY fat..) and that everyone around him is telling him, “You tell ‘em, Steve-Dave!” instead of saying, “Yeah, this sucks and is fucking awful, and fuck them for handling it this way.. but dude. You’ ARE John Candy in a few years.”

GregoryAButlery @67:

Your history leaves out some important things in the “competition” between rail and air travel. Municipal and state governments spent what would now be hundreds of billions of dollars building airports and access roads to them. The federal government subsidized aircraft manufacturers with free factories and tooling, with free R&D;(before NACA became NASA), with orders for military transports that were essentially airliners without the fancy interior. They subsidized the airlines with mail contracts, cash payments for flying to underserved airports, and regulations intended to guarantee a profit. Big rail? Bupkis. They got their handouts back in the 19th century; in the 20th they got their rates regulated, their stations demolished and their rights of way contested. (Of course they also had complete loser idiots for management who were more interested in playing financier than running actual businesses.)

As Mnemosybe points out, for distances under 500 miles even moderately high-speed trains make huge amounts of sense. An express train based on 50-year-old technology like Acela should typically be twice as fast as a car, and about the same as a plane after you factor in the huge dead time that surrounds a flight.

Real high-speed trains would get you across the country in 12 hours express, which is not that much longer than air travel, and under much better conditions. I could imagine getting off a train and actually being fit for something, as opposed to long air trips, where the next day almost always seems to be about recuperating.

At first it occurred to me that maybe they just didn’t like Smith’s films or his terrible blog and the weight thing was just an excuse, but then I realised anyone with any familiarity with Smith should have known he’d have no qualms about taking something as personally embarrassing as this and using it as an excuse to draw attention to himself.

Ellen Degeneres did an absolutely wonderful, deadpan standup routine on the airlines, and how you must have your seat in the upright and locked position for landing, or you will absolutely, positively die!

How far does the seat recline?  Two inches or three?

This really makes me wonder. Reading about it on various blogs, the fat-shaming abounds but then goes onto tall people and broad shouldered men.  Several blogs have commenters proposing some kind of seat test before you get on a plane. As a 6’5 280 pound guy who has flown a lot, I know well what shoulders hunched together for 5 hours feels like or trying so desperately to not let my legs splay out into the space of the people beside me that I reach muscle fatigue and cant get up when the plane stops. Seems there is no fix to this and even if we’re larger than we were in the ‘50’s, I remember reading that, at least segments of the population, are taller too. 

Trains might work and I support it for nothing more than the ability to walk around. I’ve done boston to orlando a few times, a 25 hour trip and I prefer that to flying from Atlanta to Los Angeles. I’m not sure what to do with things now, when I board, if I’m flying coach, I feel bad for whoever is next to me. I hate fat-shaming but I dont know what to tell the woman next to me who feels uncomfortable with me invading, given how small the seats can be, her personal space. My appearance gives me a bit more privilege than other folks who get shamed think, somehow its more ok if you appear to be a large muscular/bulky person, especially if youre wearing a nice suit, its just bullshit. Bleh dont know what im trying to say, just frustrated.

*shamed, i think

He carries all his weight around his midsection and thighs; that’s the classic heart-attack build.
Comment #59: jdobbin on 02/15 at 04:45 PM

Haha, no, weight in the thighs is just a bonerkiller.  It is fat around one’s internal organs that is supposed to be bad for your health.

Not that I care what kills your boner, jdobbin.

Anyway.  I’d love to know how much additional space costs how much additional money.  If you have to pay twice as much, you should get twice the space.  There seems to me to be a market for paying for additional space on a per-cubic-inch basis.  Wider seats, seats for taller people, or maybe you could get a smaller seat for a child.  Factor in the fact that somone who uses a bigger seat has a smaller luggage “tare” per ci than someone who uses a smaller seat.

Hey, remember bench seats in cars?  What if you could get a “family bench” with room for 3 or 4 depending on size?  Or two if you need that room?  Or one if you need that room?  They could be set up to activate or deactivate some number of seat belts. 

I realize this wouldn’t help singles or couples but it might be a start.

Oh, and I’d guess that the variation in seat belt size is that frayed or damaged ones are replaced with others that might not be the same size.  Not that they have been repaired.

I fly a lot and it’s never a completely comfortable experience. If someone’s thigh is touching mine, I don’t get worked up about it because it’s *not a big deal.* Why make yourself so upset over physical contact? If my seat neighbour is dominating the armrest, I say something like, “Hey, mind if we share the armrest?” I’ll say something to people who sit all splayed out as if they were relaxing at home, to people who recline their seats into my knees, to people who start sleeping/snoring on my shoulder, etc. Whatever.
Comment #72: unhipster on 02/15 at 05:37 PM

I have to agree with this.  I can’t imagine being three hours into a flight with some jerkwad talking to me the whole time and thinking studiously ignoring him will make an impression on him after the first two hours and fifty minutes.  After ten minutes he’d get “I’d rather not chat” or “Please let me read my book.” Another two minutes would earn “leave me alone.”  “Shut the fuck up” would soon follow.

I recognize that women are socialized not to confront anyone, but this isn’t a party.  Pretend you’re an important businessman in a suit if that helps.  Think about what you want, and ask for it, as soon as you can, because waiting until you’re pissed off makes it harder to ask calmly and easier to be branded a hysterical passive-aggressive bitch.

Paul @ 96, you seem to be forgetting that the rail companies have tremendous advantages under the law, and are almost as powerful as the states.  But hauling cargo is very profitable for them, and passenger rail just wasn’t once the airlines took off (pun intended).

We had transcontinental passenger rail service, we had all sorts of passenger rail lines, but they all went out of business because the American people started to choose alternative means of transportation.  What we have left is Amtrak, which still depends on government subsidies to keep most of the non-northeast corridor lines running.

@litbrit

The thing about SW is that packing people in like sardines *is* their business model.  It’s how they undercut the competition.  I understand your frustration if they’re the only ones who have convenient flights from your location.  I’m in a similar situation in that I live in a small city in southwest VA and anywhere I have to fly is typically at least a two-hopper (after driving for anywhere from 1-3 hours to get to an airport, mind you).

We don’t even have Southwest.  Honestly, I’ve had nothing but good experiences myself with SW and would rather they did fly out of, say, Roanoke.

But if people feel this strongly about it, I think the only way you can really protest is not to fly, unless (as you pointed out) you could show a real increase in medical risk from DVT, etc.

Hector B!  There’s Jacksonville.  They even have a professional football team. 

So does Tampa!

Caren I want to be persuaded by the NFL argument, but then I think “Buffalo,” “Green Bay”—even Cincinnati which is the Detergent Capital of the World.

I welcome high speed rail, but the western two-thirds of the US is pretty big compared to Europe. LA-SF is comparable to London-Glasgow, the longest run between big cities in the UK. With 3.5 times the population, Japan is somewhat smaller than the state of California, though narrower and thus longer. From Hakata to Hachinohe is the same distance as from Chula Vista, CA to Albany, OR—1025 miles.

The thing about SW is that packing people in like sardines *is* their business model.

No one has flown AA or UA lately?

If Southwest’s model is sardines, theirs is drupelets (a word I learned reading Vonnegut).

I used to work at a smaller airline in HI that had a “Nobody over 350” policy; not because of seating, really, but because the threshold of the steps to get into the Caravans was rated at that. We still accomodated a lot of larger people—Polynesians like myself tend to be large (I’m 260-270).

With larger people, whenever possible, I’d try to get them in the back row, which I thought was more comfortable when I flew, and had them avoid the very narrow front rows at all cost. On the rare occasion we needed to deny boarding for size, I tended to take that duty because I thought the passenger would take the “Fat-Banning” better from a 5’11, 260 lb guy than my tiny female co-worker.

On the larger planes, I’ve never had a real problem, though I only go Inter-Island and those flights are really laid-back. I nearly always get an emergency seat and leave the arm-rests down unless I’m sitting next to someone. I can fit within the arm-rests, but its more comfortable without them and IMO safer, as all they do is get in the way if you need to disembark really quickly.

The thing about SW is that packing people in like sardines *is* their business model.
No one has flown AA or UA lately?

Flew American less than a week ago.  Both ways the plane was packed to the gills and they were making people take their coats out of the overhead compartments in order to pack in all the carryons (since fucking AA charges for all checked luggage).

I managed to thread the needle of bad weather/snowstorms during my stay, but wondered what the hell they do when flights are cancelled.  There’s no extra space.  There’s no way to accomodate anyone from an earlier scheduled flight. 

On the way out, they were offering $600 plus a guaranteed first class seat on the next flight which left 3 hours later to anyone who would get off.  How does that affect profit margins?

What happened here was a ridiculous attempt to not refund a seat.  he bought two, used one?  Refund.  Same thing happened when I was on a late/cancelled AA flight to Raleigh Durham and a woman was told to put the baby seat away so they could get another passenger on - she refused unless they gave her a bumped passenger ticket because she had paid for the seat.  The crew threatened to put her off the flight if she didn’t put the kid in her lap and gate check the seat - a 2pm flight that replaced a 7:30 am one, and with a baby.  The rest of the cabin started shouting and the assholes backed down. SHE HAD PAID FOR TWO SEATS and anybody who travels with babies knows it is a MAJOR HASSLE to handle a 2 year old in your lap!  Yet they expected her to just squish in another passenger, and get double money for that seat, with out compensating her.

On the other hand, I once had to get a new seat assignment because my “seatmate” was an ENORMOUS drunkard and I couldn’t even fit into MY seat. This was difficult, and I was pissed because I ended up in the center of a 5x row on a DC-10 instead of the aisle seat that I had booked. Sorry, but some people just don’t fit and they aren’t entitled to another person’s rented space.  Seats should be larger, true, but that doesn’t mean much when you can’t even sit in yours!  I would argue that that passenger should have been bounced because he was a stinking unbathed drunk, fat notwithstanding though.

My next flight will likely be when I take my kids cross-country in April.  They are still not as tall as their Dad, and 130lbs each.  We will have plenty of room in our row, each way.

Then I get on a train the next day.  No way am I flying Boston-DC after that!

I say keep the seats small to keep down the average ticket price on low-cost carriers. Just don’t make bigger people pay double for an extra seat. Figure that people at the 97th percentile for size will need two seats and factor the cost into the price of everyone’s ticket. I don’t mind paying a little extra to make sure that bigger people aren’t priced out of air travel by the two-seat rule.

Lindsay, good answer!

I managed to thread the needle of bad weather/snowstorms during my stay, but wondered what the hell they do when flights are cancelled.

They have you sit in the terminal at O’Hare for 10 hours while they fly a new plane in from Rome.

Ask me how I know.  :-p

You say it’s “another matter” if Kevin Smith had been kicked off for weight rather than size - but it isn’t really. It’s all part of the same game: shame the fatty.

Fillyjonk of Shapely Prose has previously dealt with the logical fallacies of weighing aircraft passengers:

Listen, nobody disputes the fact that the weight of an aircraft matters. But something like nine percent — NINE PERCENT — of that weight is attributable to passengers, you dumb fuck. More than half the weight is just the weight of the craft itself, and then there are things like FUEL. Basically, airplanes are heavy, empty or full. The average Australian weighs about 167 pounds; if you limited your clientele to cut that average by, say, 20 pounds, you’d save about 1 percent of the weight of the aircraft. That’s like kicking a five-year-old out of your SUV and expecting it to improve your gas mileage.

So, as far as all the bolgs/sites I’m reading not only was he seated with the armrests down and belt buckled, but they kicked him off for “safety reasons”. WTF?!?

I’m not larger than “normal” in height or weight, but if safety in getting out of the rows in an emergency is a huge concern then ALL of the airlines I’ve flown in the past 3 years (Delta, AA, United and SW) need to make a change as EVERY TIME my D-cup breast rub the seats in front of me to the point of discomfort as I make my way my (usually) non-aisle seat.

As a side rant the first time my sister flew (ever) to burbank (on SW), her pilot was similar to that annoying bus driver who like to make jokes that only HE thinks are funny. They hit a bit of Burbank’s notorius turbulence and instead of being professional the pilot decides to get on the intercom and declare “PHEW! I wasn’t sure we were gonna make it through that one folks!!”

The crammed-together rows of seats are FAR more of a safety hazard—a hinderance to smooth, quick evacuation—than the weight of any one passenger.

And I agree with fatadelic: on large commercial aircraft, the vast majority of the weight is the plane itself and its fuel.  When you fly on a teeny commuter plane with six or eight seats or a private jet, yeah, they’ll need to know how to distribute the passenger load.  But extrapolating this safety procedure to 200+-passenger jets is stunningly ignorant.  (I’d also add that those huge pallets of paid cargo can add some serious weight to the aircraft, which makes it that much more irritating when they charge you $30 because your single checked suitcase weighs two or three pounds more than their limit, and the only reason you packed everything in *that* is to avoid hassles and delays with carryons at the TSA screening points.  You can’t win.)

When you fly on a teeny commuter plane with six or eight seats or a private jet, yeah, they’ll need to know how to distribute the passenger load.

I’m short but sturdily built and I remember the crew being surprised when I volunteered to change seats when they asked anybody over 200 lbs to do so.  At 5’3, shouldn’t that have made me too fat to fit?  Not at all.

So you’re saying if he dropped that weight he’d live forever?
Also, one of the perks of being a Rich Hollywood Director is the Rich Hollywood Doctors who are available to him.

No, I’m saying he’d stand a better chance to make it into his 50s. What kind of binary bullshit is that? Either you live forever, or some finite number, so what’s the difference? If your actions could increase your life by 5 years, isn’t that worth something?

I just lost my dad to what should have been a preventable illness (lung cancer, with plenty of wake-up calls along the way that went unheeded by him as he continued to sneak cigarettes) and I am here to tell you that there’s a WORLD of difference between dying at 70, as my dad did, versus 75. That would be 5 more years in my daughter’s lives, five more years for my mom to have with him .

To willingly decrease your lifespan because you can’t get over your own shit (that’s making you miserable anyway) is a tragedy.

Jezus, what kind of juvenile shit is that? Is it gonna make me live FOREVER? No? Then fuck it! Are you insane? Also, being “rich” doesn’t keep you alive, no matter how many doctors you can pay for. Again, Kevin is naming his fear and trying to push it away, with the “I’m not John Candy, here”  talk. That’s precisely the model he’s following.

Look, the embarrassment of this situation wasn’t handled (it seems) correctly, exactly. I honestly don’t even want to get into the he said/she said specifics because they can become even MORE embarrassing when you know other stuff about Smith that calls a lot into question about his version of the events.

The fact is, he was shown a very inconvenient and embarrassing truth about himself; whether or not he’s TECHNICALLY “too fat to fly,” the fact is, if he’s there at the margins, if it is a question or a judgement call, then this really should be more about him saying, “I’m tired of this being an issue, and calling myself “Lunchbox” to deflect and disarm.”

He’s gonna be 40. If he doesn’t want to be Candy, who only made it to 43, then I hope he takes this awful, awful day as a motivating factor really change the future for himself. I could give a shit about SW and its tact or lack of tact or its customer service.

I care about this wonderful guy with so much to say and do, and who has so many people around him who want and need him healthy for as long as he can stay so. (No, not forever, but at least another 30 years would be nice.)

jdobbin, you can lose 10 lbs of ugly fat right now ...

You are MASSIVELY OVERSTATING the conclusions of research, as only obesity researchers can.  If the rest of us epidemiologists drew such aggressive inferences from shitty data, we would get laughed out of our journals.  Obesity crusaders are down there with industry shills in this business, at least if the eye roll index holds any water.

Of course there ought to be bigger seats on planes, but if there’s going to be a “bag must be this size” template to be a carry-on, maybe the airlines need a “passenger must be this size” template.

Seriously, I have to ask don’t we all have better things to do with our time than worry about a whiny movie director?  And are we really going to bring up children in this, too??  How about this—we can let Kevin and Southwest work things out on their own, not use this as an excuse to complain about every other airline horror story and write about things that are really a problem in this country?

yeah. i’m all crazy like that.

Joanne Bamberger aka PunditMom
http://www.punditmom.com

Look, jdobbin, even assuming that Kevin Smith’s current weight, in and of itself, is a serious risk to his health that could be removed by dieting (a perilous assumption), and even assuming that one of Southwest Airline’s proper functions is drawing its passengers’ attentions to their health risks (it isn’t), what they did doesn’t seem to have worked very well, has it?  To the best of my knowledge, Kevin Smith has not magically become thin.

A few things:

You’re a bigot, jdobbin.  WE GET IT.  Enough with the faux concern and misinformation. 

#120 -I’m sure, Joanne, that Amanda deeply and truly cares what you have decided she should write about instead.  No, really.  We’re all waiting with baited breath for your opinion, which was only posted to pimp your site.  Baited breath, I tell you!!

__

Between this and the let-the-security-guard-see-you-naked “security” scanners, it’s almost as if airlines are TRYING to lose business. 

#110 - excellent idea.

Kevin Smith is a smart guy. Let him do his own research and figure out if dieting is worth it to him, given that there is no known way to make fat people permanently thin. Seriously. Go read <a=href"www.kateharding.net”>Shapely Prose</a>. Something like 98% of all diets fail over 5 years, and success is considered only gaining back 70% of the weight you lost in the first place?

I am all of five feet tall and wear a size 10/12, and am not especially hippy. I fit in an airplane seat but can’t say that I find flying comfortable. I always feel sorry for anyone larger than I am. If at my fairly small size I am not comfortable, how awful must it be to have legs much longer, or hips much wider? I would rather sit next to a person with larger hips than the man with the giant phantom schlong. I’ve been next to him on too many flights.

I am thrilled for any time that Amtrak is an option over air travel. Fortunately for me, most of my travel now is along the Boston-DC corridor. I loved traveling internationally when I did, but I hated the flying part and between security and the airlines themselves, it’s only getting worse.

jdobbin, research overwhelmingly shows that 95% of people who attempt to lose weight will fail at it and gain back any losses within 5 years. Given that fact, what exactly is Kevin Smith supposed to do?

Oh hey I was beaten on that point, of course. Srsly jdobbin, to reiterate, even if Kevin’s OMGdeathfatz are going to kill him tomorrow (which they aren’t), the odds are overwhelming that he can’t permanently change his body.

I’m a *bigot?*

Wow. Also, this is the most mind-numbing, nihilistic idiocy I’ve ever heard. People CAN’T get more healthy? Why bother? Jesus.

Kevin is morbidly obese. He isn’t overweight or not-up-to-Hollywood-standards. He sweats from moving around. Profusely. He smokes non-stop.

It isn’t “faux” concern. Again, I’m a big fan and have been for some time. I used to go out to Red Bank for the Vulgarthons; Kevin and I have been friendly-semi-acquaintances in the past, and I’ve got a lot of mutual friends.

I refuse to accept that any one given person is statistically doomed to bad habits. At a certain point, there are choices that are made; statistically, people tend to not quit smoking.

Would you then never encourage your smoker friends and family not to quit? “You’re PROBABLY going to fail anyway, so…”

Also, will he die TOMORROW, Yawgmoth? No. Will be die in 5 years? I’d say the chances of a heart attack, whether it is fatal or not, is almost certain.

You all are being pretty flippant about a serious health issue, simply because it will not kill the man in the next week or year. If the issue is “Did SW airline not handle this tactfully?” then the answer is probably “YES.” But I think the fundamental issue here is that if you can’t fit into an airline seat, or if there’s a QUESTION, then you have some things you need to do. That shouldn’t be acceptable to you, simply because other people are similarly shortening their lifespans.

I’d point you to Jamie Oliver’s recent TED talk at http://www.ted.com/talks/jamie_oliver.html for an illustration of the problem at hand.

A “bigot?” Holy crap, folks.

Dude. You didn’t answer the question.  Given that long-term weight loss is impossible for all but a small lucky few, what is Mr. Smith supposed to do?  Diet and pray that he’s one of the lucky ones, then when he almost certainly isn’t, gain the weight back + 10 pounds, and start the cycle again in 6 months? That’s worse for him than being fat.

  Given that long-term weight loss is impossible for all but a small lucky few,

I cannot accept this given. It is ridiculous. X amount of calories get chosen by a person to enter his or her body. Results follow, in either direction, depending on the value of X.

There is no luck involved at all. Just, at a certain point, a choice of priorities.

I don’t say this without sympathy or empathy; 3 years ago, I lost 90lbs by not “dieting” but by changing how I used, viewed, and chose foods. (Then, once I lost the weight, changing my habits to include daily exercise) I did this, in large part because I could no longer rationalize away and avoid the fact that my life and health were no longer my exclusive property, because of my kid.

I don’t say this to be all Johnny-What-a-Good-Boy-Am-I, but only to tell you that I speak from some experience here.

Kevin is morbidly obese. He isn’t overweight or not-up-to-Hollywood-standards. He sweats from moving around. Profusely. He smokes non-stop.

And you are intractably obtuse and scientifically illiterate, not to mention foolishly nosy.  But, hey, don’t bother you with the facts ... JDOBBIN IS ON A CRUSADE AGAINST FATTIES!

Obesity is a VERY POOR prognosticator of future health on an INDIVIDUAL basis.  Any credible scientist can tell you this by reading the statistical body of evidence.  Any predictive value that obesity has at all (and it isn’t very strong) VANISHES WHEN MUCH STRONGER INDIVIDUAL PREDICTORS ARE INCLUDED.  Blood pressure, lipid profile, metabolic status, etc. are all measurable and are usually measured on an annual basis by one’s personal physician - and Kevin Smith’s are NONE of either of our business.

I used to classify as “morbidly” obese and still teeter on the obese/overweight line - a total joke, given my activity levels and body fat percentage. However, despite being 5’3” tall 185lb, I wear size 12, I have perfect if even low cholesterol, 105/70 blood pressure, and typically bike 50+ miles a week and walk another 2-3 miles in a typical day.  My risks are very, very low as a result of my activity and my scoring on GOOD predictors of future trouble.  These proper measures mean that my BMI is totally irrelevant to my health, and my weight is meaningless to anybody but myself.

Also, will he die TOMORROW, Yawgmoth? No. Will be die in 5 years? I’d say the chances of a heart attack, whether it is fatal or not, is almost certain.

Please provide references supporting this assertion, with proper measures of uncertainty and future predictive value (and false positive/false negative) rates of your test.

Then again, I know you can’t.

Why has no one expressed concern that this talented, funny, smart man is going to die in his 40s from what he’s doing to his body?

Umm, maybe because fat shaming is not effective at making people become healthier.  If bitching about fat people made any kind of difference, then we certainly wouldn’t have any fat people.  Nagging, teasing, and shaming don’t make people healthier.  Also, would you even suggest whining about other people who are skinny but still unhealthy?

I don’t say this without sympathy or empathy; 3 years ago, I lost 90lbs by not “dieting” but by changing how I used, viewed, and chose foods.

Get back to me in 2 years.  If you’ve still managed to keep the weight off, then congratulations: you’re a freak of nature.  Whether you call it a diet or a lifestyle change, there’s still a 90-95% failure rate.  If you’re one of the small percentage of people who keep the weight off, then I guess you can go around feeling superior and self-righteous, but it still won’t make other people skinny.

Hey, jdobbin, I have some questions for you:

Do you truly think that Smith has never heard about the health risks of obesity?  Do you truly think that there’s a single person on this blog who hasn’t heard the same thing?  Since we’ve all heard plenty about it, what would be the purpose of “expressing concern” over it?  How would it benefit anyone in any conceivable way?  Please explain to me how it would be helpful to anyone, at all, ever to go on about it.  I’m dying to hear this rationalization.

I would just like to know why jdobbin thinks that a bunch of total strangers (oh, sorry, and one sort-of-Internet-friend-from-the-90s) yammering about Smith’s fatty fat fat OMGDEATHFAT on Pandagon is somehow going to help anyone, least of all Smith, who likely doesn’t read Pandagon or give a fuck what any of us thinks.

Methinks jdobbin just wants an excuse to blabber on about his own weight loss and feel a bit superior, nu?

What would make a much bigger impact on Kevin Smith’s health would be quitting smoking, but that might cause him to gain more weight. Then jdobbin’s head would explode!

Further evidence that packing people into planes is not a good idea—someone on a flight back from Vancouver attacked Mitt Romney, when he asked him to move the seatback in front of his wife.

Good morning! How much does that weigh?

Ham!

...Southwest Airlines thought it was not for the critics, either. Idiots.

Get back to me in 2 years.  If you’ve still managed to keep the weight off, then congratulations: you’re a freak of nature

So how does this jibe with your views on health care as policy? Only “freaks of nature” change habits?

I think the defensive posturing here, and the immediate cry of “FAT SHAMING!” shows just how much this issue is about personal pain. Believe me that I know from being fat. The shame of it has very little to do with other people calling you out for being fat.

I’m honestly not trying to be some kind of Ubermensch here. I can tell you as someone who HAS had terrible habits with food and had all the rationalizations and procrastinations and all that *actually doing it*, actually committing to understanding how calories and nutrition work is not hard. The “shame” of it is that once you do, you realize it was not so hard at all. Which is, paradoxically, the hardest part.

I did have a self-shaming incident; a patch of my right leg got numb; pins and needles.  I developed something called meralegia paresthetica, which is a fancy term for leg-numbness. Along the way, it was checked for MS and other possible causes. But when I realized that I had eaten myself into a neurological condition, it DID shame me, to myself.

I know Kevin has to be ashamed of not fitting into a seat. (And believe me, he didn’t fit. He used to talk about owning his own personal seat belt extender.) The shame doesn’t come from other people calling you out. The shame is actually looking at yourself honestly and asking how you’ve contributed to this.

Saying that somehow only “freaks of nature” can possibly affect change is the lamest excuse I can think of. It absolves anyone of any personal responsibility at all.

Again, SW probably handled the actual situation terribly. But the elephant in the room (no pun intended, but there it is) is that we’re talking about someone who could not fit into a seat. If you choose to blame the seat,I don’t know what to say to you.

Saying that somehow only “freaks of nature” can possibly affect change is the lamest excuse I can think of.

Well, 90-95% of people can’t do it.  If only a small percentage can manage it, when what would you call those 5%?

And honestly, if it was so easy for you to lose weight, then why were you ever fat in the first place?

On top of that, how is fat-shaming supposed to help anyone in any conceivable way ever?  Our culture has been fat shaming and concern trolling for decades, and it’s pretty damn obvious that it’s not working very well.  We can concern troll and fat shame all day long, and that doesn’t change the fact that Smith is a still a human being and doesn’t deserve to be treated badly by an airline.  He’s also apparently a smoker, but I don’t see you concern trolling about that, even though it’s far worse for his health, AND it’s easier to quit smoking than to permanently lose weight.

Um, no, actually. Not everyone who is overweight is suffused with self-loathing and shame.

I’ll wait awhile for your head to stop blowing the fuck up….

Nobody is saying that only freaks of nature can change habits. What we’re saying is that EVEN WHEN habits change, it’s EXTREMELY RARE for a person’s actual body to change, that much, that permanently. Most people who change their diet and begin to exercise lose just a bit of weight, not 90+ lbs. Of the minority that lose a LOT of weight, an overwhelming number will regain it within 2-5 years.

These are actual fact thingies, rather than anecdotes, though, so you probably don’t care.

And you have yet to explain how, precisely, wasting all of our time like this is helping to do fuck-all for Kevin Smith, airline passengers, or Southwest.

Do you think that somehow, if you just point out other peoples’ weight often enough, it’ll keep you thin? I’m not even joking, my mother totally believes that that works.

Hey, jdobbin, I have some questions for you:
Do you truly think that Smith has never heard about the health risks of obesity?  Do you truly think that there’s a single person on this blog who hasn’t heard the same thing?  Since we’ve all heard plenty about it, what would be the purpose of “expressing concern” over it?  How would it benefit anyone in any conceivable way?  Please explain to me how it would be helpful to anyone, at all, ever to go on about it.  I’m dying to hear this rationalization.

I’ll answer in earnest, although it was not asked in this fashion.

In the same manner that when you’re overweight and uncomfortable, you avoid pictures or video, Kevin has built a network and a bubble around him to tell him what he wants to hear. He dresses in a costume built to hide the weight,since he’s “lucky” about it not going to his face as much as it could go.

And yes, when someone is morbidly obese, I think that expressing concern—genuine concern—is a valid feeling to have. I think that people who are, or who become obese have elaborate defensive mechanisms to avoid thinking about it. We make such a big deal—and rightfully so—about conservative’s cognitive dissonance over a variety of issues; prizing “American Values” while excoriating first amendment rights or promoting cruel and unusual punishment—- but we don’t recognize cognitive dissonance when we practice it. 

In answer, I think it needs to be stated plainly, often, because it is so easy to NOT deal with it, or face it, even after hearing it in general so many times.

I’m not condemning. Really, I get it. Why is there so much hostility to someone saying, “Well, Kevin is gonna be lucky to see 50 the way he’s going?” I don’t like that fact at all. There’s no gloat there. But it is true.

How could it benefit ANYone? Well, I don’t know. I can only offer personal experience as example. I got to be 90lbs overweight, and I confronted it and made the active choice to try to control this aspect of my health.  I understand you’re handed no guarantees when you wake up each morning that you’ll make it safely back to the bed at the end of the day. There are a million and three things totally out of your hands at every turn.

Precisely none of that has any bearing on the responsibility you have over the the areas you do, or can, exercise control over, however. This isn’t a value judgement where I want you to say, “WOW, you’re awesome and I suck, then, huh?” If that’s what you’re thinking, I submit that lays in your head more than mine. (Not the “I’m awesome” part, the self-loathing part.) But even that becomes a confrontation, where there need not be one.

What radical thing am I saying, here, exactly? Being morbidly obese and not reading what your food is made of, and what you choose to eat, is unhealthy?

I think that it is unfortunate that “unhealthy” is such a loaded term here—it implies a lack of moral character, or a weakness. I’m talking actual HEALTH, not that other stuff. It is, objectively speaking, unhealthy.

Citing “95%” is absurd; you’re lumping in everyone who tries some gimmick or pill, or joins a gym with no plan or education.

If you want to make this more about liberal ideology, I think it is shameful that our schools don’t teach the simple math of calories and nutrition from kindergarten on. It’s a very simple balance sheet. You have a basal metabolic rate which dictates how many calories you need to go in every day to stay at equilibrium. Go over, it gets stored as fat for future use, go under, and your body dips into reserves held. That’s simple enough to know as math by 3rd grade.

Believe me when I tell you I know the awfulness of being the fat kid and I’m not interested in shaming anyone, or aggrandizing myself.

Again, I just hope that when all this cools down, Kevin is able to look back with a bit of honesty here and use that humiliating day for some good.

Which, I guess, makes me a monster, a bigot and a troll, or a statistical anomaly, or some such.

I’m honestly not trying to be some kind of <strike>Ubermensch</strike>UberChristian here. I can tell you as someone who HAS <strike>had terrible habits with food</strike> sinned against the Lord Jesus and had all the rationalizations and procrastinations and all that *actually doing it*, actually committing to <strike>understanding how calories and nutrition work</strike> Our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST! is not hard. The “shame” of it is that once you do, you realize it was not so hard at all.

FTFY!

Most people who change their diet and begin to exercise lose just a bit of weight, not 90+ lbs. Of the minority that lose a LOT of weight, an overwhelming number will regain it within 2-5 years.

There are studies, including one group underway for over twenty years, of people who lose more than 40 lbs and keep it off for more than 2 years.  The key is to stick with what worked as a maintenance strategy.  If you are an exerciser, keep exercising.  If you work best with calorie restriction, do that. 

That said, saying that “everybody gains it back” is as reductive as saying “a heart attack in 5 years is certain based on his weight”.  Both are exaggerations, both are not true given current health research.

Well lucky for me I didn’t say “everybody,” I said “an overwhelming number.” Certainly a large enough number—remember, we’re talking the general population, not those actively participating in weight-loss studies—to be discouraging for someone who’s considering a radical lifestyle shift.

And yes, when someone is morbidly obese, I think that expressing concern—genuine concern—is a valid feeling to have.

Not to get all nitpicky on you, but expressing concern is not a “feeling,” it’s an action. FEELING concern may be valid. (It may also, as many people will tell you, be misguided.)

EXPRESSING your weight and health concerns to a total stranger is, frankly, being rude. Expressing concern to a bunch of people who aren’t even the ones you’re concerned about, and who don’t even know the person you’re concerned about, is just useless gossip.

Not to get all nitpicky on you, but expressing concern is not a “feeling,” it’s an action. FEELING concern may be valid. (It may also, as many people will tell you, be misguided.)
EXPRESSING your weight and health concerns to a total stranger is, frankly, being rude. Expressing concern to a bunch of people who aren’t even the ones you’re concerned about, and who don’t even know the person you’re concerned about, is just useless gossip.

I disagree. I don’t think it is rude. But also, Kevin lives his life in public in a way that goes beyond the usual kind trope (which I disagree with) about celebrities giving away some of their privacy in exchange for celebrity. I mean, literally the first thing he did was inform Twitter, then go home and conduct an emergency PodCast as soon as he got in the door. http://www.smodcast.com/smods/smodcast106.html

So the topic is out there for public discussion; this is not a matter of getting into someone else’s business “uninvited,” so to speak. Going on about Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Aniston is gossip about strangers. You can’t be Kevin Smith, letting literally EVERY errant thought out for broadcast, then claim that strangers can’t have opinions or perspectives.

Further, Pam ended her post with “What do you all have to say?” which would lead me to believe that opinions on the incident specifically and the topic in general, were welcome. 

I think that the discussion (or at least, the branch of it where people began to respond to my comments) has become about a larger topic of obesity in general, which is, I think, something that does need to be addressed in a frank way.

The fact that I talked about having genuine and specific concern for Kevin Smith, the guy, was because I was being dismissed as troll or a “bigot.” (That, I still don’t understand.) I’m sorry if I’ve protested too much about my Askewniverse bona fides; I certainly don’t mean to trade on them or make them into anything more than they are.  Which is not much; their statute of limitations or expiration date has long since expired. But back in the day, I interacted with him and the Askew-fans enough to have a lasting a genuine affection for the guy, is all.

Ms Kate, 95% is pretty close to “everybody”.  Although I don’t remember anyone claiming that “everybody” gains it back, I won’t accuse you of straw-manning because I haven’t thoroughly read every comment.  Still, it works for a very few people, and that’s good for them.  But it’s not really helpful to anyone to pretend that “eat less and exercise” is an effective way of changing most people. 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it as many times as I have to.  Telling people to eat less and exercise more is about as effective as telling teens to just not have sex.

jdobbin,

You still have failed to explain how concern trolling about weight is supposed to help anyone.  Do you or do you not think that Smith and the readers of the blog have heard what you’re going on about?  Do you think you’re adding anything new?  And, why aren’t you concern trolling about his smoking, which is both more dangerous and easier to change?

I disagree. I don’t think it is rude.

O RLY. Note that I said that expressing your “concerns” to a total stranger is rude. Do you really think it’s not rude to walk up to a stranger and be like, “Sir, are you aware that you’re fat and WILL DIE HORRIBLY OMG”??!?! I’d hate to see how badly someone has to behave in order to qualify for your version of rude. Do they actually have to injure someone?

Further, Pam ended her post with “What do you all have to say?” which would lead me to believe that opinions on the incident specifically and the topic in general, were welcome.

“Welcome” is not the same thing as “immune from criticism.”

This blog addresses obesity issues in a frank way CONSTANTLY, duder. Go do your concerninating on one of those threads, and perhaps you’ll find yourself in the conversation you’d like to have. Derailing a conversation, as you have done (and as I have shamefully helped you to do, out of my own misguided hope that you might be well-intentioned enough to take a motherfucking hint) is also rude.

There’s got to be some sort of Godwin’s Law-esque blog-comment maxim wherein all expressions of concern are concern-trolling, by dint of having “concern” in it.

Concern trolling is Dick Morris talking about what the democrats should do. Expressing concern for a morbidly obese, sedentary man who chain smokes, sweats from normal exertion, and is about to turn 40, where this stuff catches up with you, is not “trolling.”

This blog addresses obesity issues in a frank way CONSTANTLY, duder. Go do your concerninating on one of those threads, and perhaps you’ll find yourself in the conversation you’d like to have

What about a post about a guy getting taken off a plane for being obese is NOT about the topic of obesity?

Also, while going up to such a stranger may be rude, it also wouldn’t be factually incorrect.  I didn’t think you meant that literally, I thought you were speaking of Smith as “a stranger.”

But, sure, rephrasing anything with ZOMG in it accurately expresses what I’ve been saying. Because I totally have been all, “ZOMG, Kevin Smith is teh FATTIES! Diabetes FTW, LOL!”

Again, without rancor—I really would recommend, if you have the time, to check out that Jamie Oliver TED presentation.

Ms. Kate:

If you are comparing the idea of suggesting that choosing to go about having a reasonably BMI and eating sensibly are directly analogous to the “ex-gay” movement (both in terms of moral stridency and possible effectiveness), then I’m pretty amazed.

Again, I just have to wonder about how real any of your views on health care are actually, beyond the abstract. We’ve spent the past year fighting for the idea of “health care” legislation (which we SHOULD have, obviously) but when you’re actually involved with *caring* about your (and others) health, you’re   delusional/troll/bigot/freak-of-nature/whatever.

Sorry; a “reasonable BMI.” 

And, yes, I know that BMI is often a poor indicator, since muscle weight throws it off.  I meant being “being reasonably fit.”

jdobbin at #142:“He dresses in a costume built to hide the weight”

You know, what most people simply refer to as “our clothes”.
jdobbin, is a bra a “costume” because it holds breasts up rather than letting them sag?  Is a hat a “costume” when one’s hair isn’t quite as neat as one might wish it to be?  Don’t you see what you’re saying about your attitude towards large people when you call their clothes “a costume”?

you know, what most people simply refer to as “our clothes”.

http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.html?id=1407239044

Kevin wears a winter coat, a hoodie, and long-shorts. Everywhere. That’s a costume.

You brought up “ex gay” here.  Nice try to distract from the reality of your evangelism.

You are on a crusade to convert, truth be damned.  You are not arguing from reason or research.  Your crusader’s tropes sound like attempts to convert to this or that Christianity format that all of us have heard before.

Kevin wears a winter coat, a hoodie, and long-shorts. Everywhere. That’s a costume.

And here I thought it was what comprises 90% of my teen and pre-teen sons’ laundry piles.

You brought up “ex gay” here.  Nice try to distract from the reality of your evangelism.
You are on a crusade to convert, truth be damned.  You are not arguing from reason or research.  Your crusader’s tropes sound like attempts to convert to this or that Christianity format that all of us have heard before.

I’m not arguing from reason or research? So there’s no correlation between obesity and heart and artery disease and diabetes?

You used a clever mad-libs cross-this-out-insert-that to make it sound like I was interchangeable with evangelical christians/ex-gay-movement people. But what I don’t think you realize is that, in so doing, you’re defending obesity as being on par with sexual preference or religious choice.

““truth be damned?” What truth am I damning here? I said that SW handled this terribly, that it was dreadful and humiliating, and that I hope that some good may inadvertently come of it if it serves as a wake-up call to Kevin Smith about how big he’s gotten.

He’s started most of his talks recently (before this awful incident)  with “Before we begin, let me address the elephant in the room—I am the elephant in the room, yes, I know, I’ve gotten super-big.”

But that kind of “let me say it first” stuff is a way of not dealing with it. I know from what I speak on that score.

He’s also recently broken a toilet by sitting on it. The story here is, in part, the policy of SW (and other airlines) on how to seat and bill obese customers, and that’s something to talk about. But the OTHER part of the story, if you are being honest, is that Kevin Smith has become dangerously obese recently.

Here, the toilet-breaking thing: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/herocomplex/2008/10/kevin-smith-say.html

This was before ZACK AND MIRI was released. I love the guy, but Kevin’s fooling himself when he says he’s fat but he’s not THAT-guy-who-can’t-fit-in-a-seat fat yet. He’s been that way for a while, and yes, it is killing him.

Hmm - except that at least one of the outfits Mr. Smith is wearing in the video you linked to doesn’t meet that description - bowling type shirt, no coat, no hoodie.

And weight isn’t simple calories in/calories out. If you think it is, then you need to do some serious research on metabolism before opening your yap on the subject.

I’m not arguing from reason or research? So there’s no correlation between obesity and heart and artery disease and diabetes?

Not when you add in variables for blood pressure, diabetes, lipid profile, c-reactive protein levels.

Sorry, that should be “metabolic status”- these are all measurable variables with sufficiently high prognostic value as to remove the “effect” of obesity.  BMI is a crude measure, and a very ineffective individual predictor of health.

I wear jeans, a t-shirt and a fleece.  Everywhere.  That’s a costume!  Oh, no, wait, it isn’t - it’s my clothes that I wear because they’re comfortable and I don’t have to think about them to get dressed.

Why is this a “your yap” type fightin’ words situation?

“And weight isn’t simple calories in/calories out. If you think it is, then you need to do some serious research on metabolism before opening your yap on the subject.”

You’re wrong. It is really just that simple, in the vast majority of instances. The cases of metabolic impediments to weight loss are incredibly rare. There are very few genetic predispositions to weight. There’s family learned habits and such, but honestly, if you find out what your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is (any online calculator will give you a good ballpark) and you take in less than that each day, you will lose weight. One pound for every 3000 calories “deficit spent.”

And I *did* the research, 3 years ago, when I realized that I had a serious problem to deal with and that going to this or that fad diet seemed like a losing proposition. (The 95% failure rate that has been discussed.) So I looked into the science of weight gain, the actual, dry science—and found that it was really pretty simple arithmetic.

If we are going into this part of the conversation (which I’m glad NOT to do, I’m really not interested in “converts”), the honest truth that I found out about my own personality is that the weight-loss itself was not hard at all. The hard part, which was years in the making, was admitting that I had become genuinely obese and needed to address it beyond some vague notion of ‘eating less and exercising more.’ with an actual plan mapped out. Once that admission was made, the loss really was simple arithmetic and took just about one year to do.

I seriously don’t understand the hostility to the idea that weight management from levels of morbid obesity is not beyond one’s control. You’re right if you say that I can only speak anecdotally, but anecdotal evidence is not de facto dismissable.  I’m not telling you about what my cousin or some kid I know did, I’m telling you what happened with me.

Clearly, I am not doing so to gain large groups of Pandagon-commenter friends, but to express a deeply held view and, I think, earned perspective.

Look, Kevin is breaking toilets and getting kicked off of planes. At what point is the problem something past the toilet installer or the airline?

There is not a palm big enough to slap my face hard enough to express how thoroughly, utterly bewildered I am by the way jdobbin continues to miss every point we’ve spelled out for him.

Jim Fixx lost weight, started running a lot, quit smoking, etc.  He still died young.

I’m really just a bystander on this thread but I was wondering: doesn’t having to carry around a greater amount of weight logically mean the heart is constantly under greater strain then it would be ordinarily? I’m not talking about being mildly overweight but morbidly obese. If that is in fact how Smith qualifies. I’d say considering his personal resources he’s in a much better position than most to lose the weight and keep it off, personal trainers and dieticians may not come cheap but a hollywood director, published author and head of an international merchandise company should be able to stump up for it.

Perhaps he just prefers eating whatever he wants and not exercising, which is fair enough but in situations like this, it does have an impact on other people and the fact he used his position as a public figure to throw a cyberspace tantrum about it doesn’t reflect too well on him as a person. But having said that, the airline deserves the brunt of the blame. Not so much for the idea of the policy, which I suppose can be defended on safety/passenger comfort grounds, but for instituting something that can only be tested on the actual aircraft, ensuring maximum embarrassment to the passenger. Surely, there’s some other way of doing it.

Jim Fixx lost weight, started running a lot, quit smoking, etc.  He still died young.

But my anecdotal evidence is disqualified. In any case, this is like how a smoker will tell you of the one old aunt he knew who always had a Pall Mall attached to her lips well into her 90s.

I can’t believe that the brunt of your points are denying that, overall, lower weight (actually, lower body fat percentage, which is more about what obesity is) and more cardiovascular exercise is somehow suspect in promoting longer, less disease-filled (heart and vascular disease) lives.

Pointing to Jim Fixx is, in this instance, like Sean Hannity pointing to the snow and denying global warming/climate change.

Stubborn-Kind-of-Fellow, I think your 2nd paragraph is spot on in every way.

I don’t care how much any airline passenger weighs. I don’t care what the BMI of any passenger is. I don’t care if he’s shaving years off his life expectancy.

I only care if he intrudes into “my” space or not.

jdobbin, you do realize that I have an academic degree and access to journals?  That i have now reviewed several papers linking diabetes to air pollution?  Are you aware that current understanding holds that diabetes CAUSES weight gain that fuels further deterioration of metabolic capacity that fuels further weight gain? 

I suppose those evile fatties must just stop breathing now or risk your moral wrath.

Sorry, but I’m taking off the gloves and taking out the Sc.D. because I am far more qualified than you to judge the weight of evidence on obesity and critique everything from power calculations to analysis methods used for the statistical approaches of these studies.  I don’t accept your moralizing ‘evidence’ because it is ignorant bullshit.  That simple.

Meanwhile, you are repeating “conventional wisdom” ad nauseum, with no deeper understaning than chanting a mantra.  It is my professional estimation that you are very wrong about nearly all your evangelical points.  That’s why I bring up Jim Fixx - he did lose weight, he did stop smoking, he did exercise, yet he still died young because his other more important and more individually predictive markers of risk were genetically stacked against him.  Not an anecdote, an illustration of the stupidity of weight = risk.

jdobbin - as it happens I have three (3) of those “incredibly rare” metabolic disorders you mentioned. None of which were diagnosed until after I saw an endocrinologist for an entirely unrelated problem. At least two of them aren’t particularly rare.  Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis, for one, affects an estimated 1.5 million adults in the US alone (another 200,000 children), and it’s only one possible cause of hypothyroidism.

Sorry about the “yap”, but it’s a touchy subject for me. Something about being shamed and scolded over and over again about my persistent weight gain, with none of my physicians doing anything but tell me to diet and exercise (meanwhile I trained for a triathlon and watched my diet like a hawk - and lost less than three pounds). There’s nothing for frustration like being told to exercise more when you’re already putting in 15 hours plus of intense exercise a week.

Also, listen to Ms. Kate. She plainly knows more about this than you do.

Hell, I know two people in my fairly limited social group who have hypothyroidism, and that’s only the two who have mentioned it.  My husband has gout; if you happen to know of a good way to exercise during a gout attack, do tell.  Keep in mind that allowing anything at all to touch the affected joint can cause intense pain.  You know, like socks.  Water.  Air.  Stuff like that.

I have high blood pressure and a clotting disorder, putting me at elevated risk for heart attack and stroke. Furthermore, I’m skinny. Very, very skinny.  I have always been skinny. I was diagnosed with these conditions at the age of 29, at a time in my life when I ran every single day, biked to work and to run errands, and ate mostly rabbit food. Risk factors are highly individual.

Consider this as well: http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2010/01/24/fattened_by_pills/?rss_id=Boston.com+—+Health+news

Psychiatric medications are prescribed extensively, but nobody is talking much about their role in the “obesity epidemic”.  They are not the only medications that cause weight gain: Lyrica is a prime example of a medication where people have to “take one for the team” and often gain 40+ lbs when they start it to control severe symptoms.

My aunt has lost nearly 100lbs since she switched medications for systemic Lupus.  It was impossible for her to do this while taking the medications she took before.  She increased her activity, but she already ate a fairly healthy diet for someone on a disability income.  Her story isn’t terribly uncommon.

All the concern-trolling aside, I would still so much rather sit next to Kevin Smith on a flight, even if he was sweaty than sit next to an asshole determined to make me talk to him because he’s entitled to my full attention.

In fact, I would rather sit next to a sweaty, seat-encroaching Kevin Smith than:

A child who repeatedly kicks me while their parent smiles indulgently and does nothing, even after repeated requests to stop.

A businessman who decides to drink four vodkas in quick succession, then snores at ear-splitting levels for the rest of the flight.

Any man who decides that I, as a woman, will automatically cede all the armrest space and half my leg space to him because he is a man.

Anyone with a cold who sneezes on me instead of into a tissue (We can’t help being sick and needing to travel, but we do not need to spray infected saliva on our fellow passengers).

The businessperson who spreads their work all over their own table, then uses mine (without asking) to hold their drinks/food.

The person who decides that one hour into a seven-hour flight is an awesome time to liberally spray half a bottle of cologne all over themselves.

The person who repeatedly elbows me while having a three-hour animated cell phone conversation at top volume.

Screaming children - but screaming babies are a fact of life, not something that needs to be stopped.  One of these days, I think I’m going to join them - it will be cathartic to get the whole plane screaming, I think.

Bring on the big guy any day.  I can scooch over a little, especially if I have the window seat.

Laurel, the few flights where I have been troubled by screaming babies, I was lucky to have them in my row.

Lucky, because I could pull their bottle or teething ring out of their bag, pop it in their mouth, and then explain to the parents the concept of AIR PRESSURE CHANGE!  Blissful silence or playful baby, and extra leg room.  Love it.

  I don’t accept your moralizing ‘evidence’ because it is ignorant bullshit.  That simple.

My “moralizing bullshit” consists entirely of explaining how consistent calorie monitoring and choosing what to put into your mouth each day can and will have an affect on your weight.

My “moralizing bullshit” further says, once you’re healthy enough, working at building up cardiovascular exercise can and will improve your overall health.

I could care less how many degrees or papers that you’ve written on this subject, I can tell you that I was close to 280lbs, and am now 190, and have improved flexibility, strength and endurance. I didn’t do any fad or secret diet or hidden trick, I’m not selling a philosophy or a religion.

If you think that, after much formal education, being obese is something that just mysteriously happens to people, with no causation that they have any control whatsoever over, then I’m here to tell you that you wasted a lot of student loan money.

How is making a decision to take control of oneself somehow a villanous and dickish action?

You people make me sad.

That’s very nice, jdobbin. I’m already plenty flexible, have good cardiovascular health, exercise plenty, and watch what I eat. Still obese.

The attitude you’re promoting here says that it’s perfectly okay to assume that every fat person is that way because of personal failings (overeating, lazy, etc.) unless or until said person has proof that extenuating circumstances apply. Which is exactly the attitude that got me scolded over and over again by doctors who simply refused to believe that I could possibly be telling the truth about how I ate and how much I moved.

You, personally, overate and under-exercised. You fixed these things, and you lost weight. That’s wonderful for you. There are undoubtedly other fat people out there who overeat and/or under-exercise and could do likewise. Wonderful for them. But going on and on about how obese people can all fix what’s wrong with them with diet and exercise while ignoring the very real existence of people who are fat because their pituitaries are screwed up, or their thyroids have quit working, or they have a disability that means they can’t exercise effectively, or for which they take a medication that causes weight gain, or their ancestors were Ukrainian peasant stock and built like draft horses.

1.5 million people with Hashimoto’s alone. Add in all the rest and you’ve got multiple millions of people in this country who cannot do diddly about their weight with your helpful advice - and yes, you’re being a dick to them. I’m not going to tattoo my medical history on my forehead so I can be one of the “good” fatties. Nor should anybody have to in order to be treated like a human being worthy of respect.

jdobbin, what you’ve never said is exactly what you did to “take control” of yourself that was so successful in your case.  There is tremendous evidence that just going by calories in/out is not of itself a 100% solution to obesity.  If it were, then everyone would be doing it and nobody would be fat.  There are a myriad of other aspects that you haven’t gone into.  You mentioned the pain and anguish of being the fat kid in school; how did you deal with that?  Did you just suck it up, or did you have to go into therapy?  How did you go about doing the actual calories in/out calculations?  I’ve been looking at calories off and on for a long time, and I’ve commented on this blog (not long ago, infact) on how hard I find it to actually get an accurate read on calories in without doing an incredible amount of detective work (or constraining myself to a limited diet of just that food that I can find accurate calorie info for).  You don’t mention exercise hardly at all; did you have to adopt a special routine?  Was a personal trainer involved?  If weight loss is just calories in/out, then why is exercise even necessarily a component at all?  All you’ve done is just continually say “I did it so anyone can,” and that’s simply not a credible statement unless we know HOW you did it.

Also, statements like this:

I could care less how many degrees or papers that you’ve written on this subject

...are exactly the same ones made by global warming deniers.  Twit the science at your peril, buddy.

How is making a decision to take control of oneself somehow a villanous and dickish action?

Given the emerging connection between air pollution and endocrine disorders, perhaps you should take control of yourself by not breathing?  Or by simply willing yourself to be wealthy enough to have a healthy environment to breathe in?

BTW, I shoot down all papers that “conclude” that pregnant women should avoid air pollution exposure for the same reasons - people typically don’t have the decision latitude or resources to change the circumstances of their living environments, working environments, commuting schedules, etc.  For many, it isn’t a matter of individual responsibility.

Taking control of the things one can control is not dickish; extrapolating your own luck to mean that everyone just needs to do what you did and telling them so in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence is extremely dickish. 

In other words, shut the fuck up.  We know your hype, and we know your type, and we disdain you and your evangelizing.

Okay, let’s play count the privileges.

I myself have lost about 30 lbs since about Halloween.

How?  I started biking to work and back more.  Everybody can do that, right?  Just use the shower at work when you get in.

I joined a gym for bad weather times, one I can use on my lunch break.  I can take a long lunch break if I have the time because I pay $3 for the express bus.

I just bought new clothes and gave the old ones to my aunt, who couldn’t afford new ones after changing meds and losing far more weight than I.

I decided that I like a nice martini or cosmo better than buying a desert when I eat out. It’s about the same $8-10 either way!

I started buying convenient but healthy breakfast and lunch items, salad items, etc. at Trader Joes, two miles from my work, which I bike to.  Easy peasy!

I took leisurely but long rides on big holidays because i had those days off of work - paid!

Anybody can do these things, right?  It just takes willpower and nothing else - no commuter bike, no shower at work, no control over your time at work, no supportive spouse, no kids old enough to leave alone, no money to buy new clothes, etc.  Nope, just willpower.

Did I mention that my personal trainer helped me design a fitness plan that incorporates my desire to go outside and play as much as possible with weight training to help work around that arthritis in my knees that was detected via MRI?

(continued from above)

he decision I came to was after finally owning up to the idea that my health wasn’t my exclusive property. I had a little kid who depended and depends on me being around, not just to survive, but also emotionally. I realized that no matter how much I love her and do things for her and teach her, if I died in 5 years from a heart attack, I would be a de facto bad father. That was what made me able to get past my own issues and rationalizations and excuses, and try to control what I could control—or at least test the limits of what I could, and be honest about it.

For proteins, I generally eat mostly soy or egg or chicken, since the calories are low; I can count on my hand the number of times I’ve had red meat in the past few years. I eat cheap stuff like rice and oatmeal and seasonal vegetables. There’s nothing exotic or prohibitively expensive, it just took some planning about meals and recipes. 

Here’s a picture of the rough “before and after.” The “before” is approximate because I avoided cameras like the plague when I was heavy, so I was probably actually 20lbs heavier, at my heaviest, than the before shot.

Also, those are 2 different babies, obviously. The before is my older daughter and the after is my younger.

http://s742.photobucket.com/albums/xx67/joshdobbin/?action=view&current=before_after.jpg

Crap; There was a beginning part to the post above, but the whole post ran afoul of the 5000 word limit. It was responding to the “how, specifically, did you go about this” question asked above.  I don’t know how it got lost, I thought I posted one then the other.

Kevin Smith has paid his weight watching dues. He’s done the whole internalized fat phobia thing, still appears to be doing it as far as I can tell. All it’s brought him is the physique that some feel to criticise. It’s important that people stop pretending that the ability to diet makes you thin, or thinner, it doesn’t, it’s made many fat and fatter than they would otherwise have been.

‘Watching your weight’ often looks like Kevin Smith, trying again looks like him too, wake up to that fact.