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Diversity of tone, safe spaces, and trigger warnings

BloggingFeminism

With this cartoon by Chris Muir—-where he says something he enjoys saying about liberal women while pretending it’s offensive to him to make a point about the evils of misogyny that never bothered the man who draws women without back before—-we have officially reached another new record in bad faith outrage events in the right wing blogosphere.  Really, anything I can say on top of what Roy says at the Village Voice would be redundant, so just read him and marvel at the fuckwittery. 

But it’s an interesting phenomenon, because, like Roy says, “political correctness” was always considered the property of the left.  Of course, while there’s some basis in truth in the idea of the oversensitive leftists policing language past the point of all common sense, the truth is that 99% of the time, the political correctness that conservatives gleefully pretend to chafe against is the rules of basic decency that prohibit calling someone by racial slurs.  But having constructed what’s basically a strawman, conservatives clearly envied the power to control and censor, and are going to grab at it no matter what it takes.

It was fascinating to see this go down at the same time that there’s a minor blog rebellion against bona fide political correctness in operation at some feminist blogs.  Shakesville is the target of the rebellion, and the whole thing makes me uneasy, because unfortunately, there’s a tendency in these intrablog things for people to pile all their life’s resentments on the big blog that’s being targeted for the rebellion, which makes it hard to distinguish between genuine criticism and gotcha-trolling.  So, I’m not really going to say anything about what’s gone at Shakesville, because I don’t really care how they or anyone operates their blog.  Your blog, your business—-and frankly, I’m grateful for the diversity in blogs.  Some feminist blogs have community standards that are too sensitive for my personal tastes, but if they’re servicing people with different tastes than mine, then that seems to be a valuable service, and I’m not going to get on a trip about it.

So what I’m going to say here must be understood as applying only to myself, and no one else.  Not even the other Pandagonians, though I do think we generally have a coherent blogging philosophy despite our differences.  We’ve gotten more than our share of requests to implement a “safe space” philosophy to this blog, and speaking for myself, I’ve largely chosen not to go with that.  In part, it’s because we identify as a liberal blog with feminist leanings, and that language tends to be more in effect in spaces that are more pure feminism.  But also, I was blogging long before it became fashionable to do things like put “trigger warnings” on posts, or talk about safe spaces, and as these things started to crop up, I thought it just didn’t really fit into the irreverent tone we like to strike at Pandagon.  In addition, though I know this goes directly against the intentions of these concepts, the use of trigger warnings signals to people who are reading for general political information that this post is for a very select group—-people recovering from sexual or other kinds of abuse—-which sends the unfortunate signal that discussions of gender violence or other hate crimes aren’t important for other people.  So, I avoided it.


Not that we don’t have to use the ban button on a regular basis here, like you have to at any blog where agitating against bigotry is a common theme.  Sick fucks who are determined to dump a bunch of racial slurs or start threadjacking like mad men are a problem we’re happy to deal with.  Derailing conversation is the big sin around these parts, but mostly we try not to get too heavy-handed.  Advertising and editorial are separate, so we’re not going to get into a situation where we start trying to micromanage what’s in the ads, a practice which leads to the unfortunate conclusion that you endorse what you didn’t censor. 

I don’t usually think about this stuff too much, but Apostate wrote what I thought was the most sensible thing I’ve read on triggers and trigger warnings, and I wanted to share this minor epiphany with you.  Prior to reading this post and the thread below it, I was skeptical that there was much need for the concept of triggers, really, and I realized that I was being completely unfair because I didn’t completely understand what people are talking about.  But reading that, I get it better now.  It reminds me of how I didn’t sleep on my side for years after getting raped, and also how I had a minor panic attack during the scene in “Very Bad Things” where they kill the hooker.  (Something about the complete disregard for her life tripped something in me, I suppose, though my aesthetic sensibilities were so violated by the shittiness of the film that I have to suspect that was a factor.)  Worry not!  I’m fine now, and only sleep on my back because my arms fall asleep when I sleep on my side now.  But I can definitely see how triggers are real, and there’s nothing shameful about having them, especially if you’re taking responsibility for your own mental health and trying to work your way through it. 

But the reality of these things points up to why I’m not comfortable using trigger warnings or safe space language (the latter I was a little more comfortable with, but I think I’ll quit now).  Apostate explains:

As mentioned above, a room painted blue used to trigger me because of childhood associations with an apartment I grew up in. Could I expect people to not paint their rooms blue?

I still can’t listen to my father’s favorite music. Some of it I have avoided for ages. My memory immediately associates these songs with riding in the car with dad and him turning up the volume at specific tracks. I have two on my iPod which I always skip – Nik Kershaw’s The Riddle and Cyndi Lauper’s Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. I can listen to ABBA only because my dad liked that when he was young, and I don’t have too many memories of listening to ABBA songs with him.

Does this mean people can’t listen to, play, or talk about certain songs?

She also talks about how you need to deal with these things through actual therapy (and I’d argue time), and that blogs perhaps can’t really fill that role for you.  And that’s really why I just can’t behind engaging in this practice, or defining this space as something that won’t trigger people who are suffering from depression or PTSD, because that’s pretty much impossible, for the reasons she states.  Even accepting that descriptions of sexual assault that are sometimes necessary to make a point are common triggers, I am uneasy with putting up the warnings, because it sends an uncomfortable signal that I don’t think women are smart enough to realize that when you quote a news article about a rape, it’s going to mention the rape in it.

Of course, that’s this blogger’s choice.  Part of the reasoning, for me, is that I see any posts on this topic as avenues of political activism, mostly raising awareness.  This isn’t about helping individuals cope, though I’m sure some individuals get a lot out of fighting for justice and to stop the sort of crimes that happened to them.  Blogs that try to have a more therapeutic bent might have different reasoning, and I respect that. 

Which brings me back to the original point of this post—-what’s so great about the liberal blogosphere is there’s a real diversity in aims and tones and community standards.  People who are invested in the safe space concept are free to pursue that, but the community of people who want to talk about these issues in a more irreverent tone deserve a spot to hang out, too.  The whole thing really points up to why the way the entire right blogosphere got behind the bad faith cries of “sexism!” was so unnerving.  Sure, in part it’s because they’re lying sacks of shit.  But it’s also more than a little alarming to see the conformity across the blogs, the group willingness to all spout the same lies and bullshit with the same gotcha! kind of enthusiasm.  No wonder they lost their crown. Their hostility to diversity wasn’t the only thing that ate up the right wing blogosphere, but it was a big factor.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:21 PM • (425) Comments

If nothing else, it’s good to see Chris Muir still doesn’t feel the need to learn to draw worth shit.

Comment #1: kaninchen  on  06/15  at  05:47 PM

For mine own self, I think your tolerance and patience are highly commendable.  I think they encourage us to explore our own selves.  Despite the Pandas having a community where there is a high degree of agreement on many issues all of us are probably ‘sinners’ on some part of the mythical liberal agenda that so excites the right wingers.  Kudos to all of the Master Pandas for giving us a space where it is safe to disagree and challenge and; occassionaly, to err.

Comment #2: Magis  on  06/15  at  05:47 PM

I’ll be honest.  I wish the PC police had never come into existence.  It was always easier to figure out the bigots before they started to dog-whistle.

Comment #3: MosesZD  on  06/15  at  05:56 PM

Pandagon has a nice selection of regulars who tend to run trolls out on a rail.  And those more persistent trolls tend to escalate, which will ultimately get them banned.

For those blogs that don’t have the same kind of irreverence, I understand why they go with community standards and outright banning.  Women are underrepresented on the Internet, and much of that is due to male trolls who go all out to silence women (first rate example:  Kathy Sierra).  If Shakesville doesn’t want to put up with that shit, that’s their business.

Comment #4: keshmeshi  on  06/15  at  05:59 PM

Shakesville is the target of the rebellion, and the whole thing makes me uneasy, because unfortunately, there’s a tendency in these intrablog things for people to pile all their life’s resentments on the big blog that’s being targeted for the rebellion, which makes it hard to distinguish between genuine criticism and gotcha-trolling.

This. I started reading that huge thread on SV at Apostate’s blog. There were some good people in the thread, some insightful, useful and interesting things were said,  and the Apostate’s blog is something I’ll be going back to again, but after a while, that thread turned into Mean Girls 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Comment #5: Comrade Mary  on  06/15  at  06:03 PM

I think there’s something therapeutic for many of us in slamming trolls as a group. smile

Seriously, this is a safe space of a different kind, one where it is safe to unleash anger and scorn and derision on the often mainstream sexism we encounter. How often in our daily lives to we have to put up with something that’s slowly soul-killing? Here, we can shout and mock and realize that we are *not* crazy to be offended by it, we’re not alone, and together, we are strong. If the misogyny is censored out in the first place, we don’t get the cathartic action.

Comment #6: Samantha Vimes  on  06/15  at  06:16 PM

More PC drama at Shakesville, eh? Who woulda thought, given that the standard response there to any criticism of Hillary Clinton’s positions during primary season was met with cries of “misogyny”?

As to how you run this joint, I can only echo what Magis said. But don’t sell yourself short on the “safe space” policy, Amanda. This is indeed a safe space—for no-BS “fighting liberalism,” and the provision for diversity of opinion that sits at its heart.

Comment #7: Gracchus.  on  06/15  at  06:25 PM

Coming from another direction on the topic of diversity—there are feminist blogs I don’t feel like I can participate in, because when I disagree in a comment thread, I get jumped on for not being a woman or queer or a victim of rape. It is nothing against those blog communities—spirits run high sometimes, and I admit that I may not have standing to comment on certain issues.

Pandagon feels very comfortable to me. Folks are thick-skinned and kind at the same time, which makes it a good place to disagree, and especially to be wrong, which is so often more valuable than being right.


As to the right-wingers, their monoculture is why they succeed at talk radio and fail at the internet, while left-wingers are just the opposite. For them, the internet is a residence and launching pad for pundits to cable news, and a spawning pool for accountability-free slurs to proliferate and mature.

Comment #8: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  06:32 PM

Oh god, blogosphere drama is the worst. Most of the time I honestly don’t know where commenters get off though. It’s not like they have a right to say whatever they want to however they want to because they would have no space to comment in *at all* if it wasn’t for the people running the blog. If you don’t respect them enough to follow their rules, get the fuck out. How hard is that?

Comment #9: ElleDee  on  06/15  at  06:34 PM

This reminds me of a really fascinating event a number of weeks ago at I Blame The Patriarchy. In one of her posts, Twisty referred to some repulsive woman-hating female asshole as a “cuntalina”. It was amazing to see the commenters pretty much all instantaneously muster into two mobs: one that felt that Twisty had irretrievably betrayed them and ought to be run out of her own blog on a rail, and one that felt that it wasn’t that big a deal and even if it was, Twisty deserved the benefit of the doubt.

Comment #10: PhysioProf  on  06/15  at  06:46 PM

FWIW, Melissa McEwan has been clear that trolling was never the issue—it was regulars being thoughtless about their choices of language, particularly around violent imagery.  I have been a regular Shakesville reader and sometime participant who feels tense when he attempts to articulate even minor differences with front-pagers’ interpretations of news stories or cultural artifacts like movies or ads.

One thing that I particularly relish about Pandagon—where I’ve been participating off and on since Jesse was still in college—is that I’ve never been concerned that I would suddenly run afoul of Amanda or Jesse (not to ignore Pam or Auguste!) and be treated to a dozen of their friends dogpiling me about how We Don’t Do That Here.  I don’t feel like the “community” aspect of blog comment sections is for me.  Here I come and go, I speak my mind when I feel like it, and while I learn a lot from what I read around here, I don’t feel like I always need to be advancing myself and others towards a higher purpose in the process.  Because my relationship with someone else’s blog shouldn’t take work.  wink

Comment #11: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  06:47 PM

Something I found interesting—if the songs Apostate mentions disturb her, why does she have them on her iPod?  Some triggers are unavoidable, certainly, but last time I checked YOU’RE the one that chooses what’s on your iPod.  Is it the aural equivalent of picking at a scab, seeing how much can be removed before the bleeding starts? 

I understand your reasoning about not seeing this blog as a “safe space.”  I get crap all the time about letting antis post at my blog, but slowly people are starting to realize that I keep their posts up just so it can be seen how batshit crazy some of these people are.  Of course if it gets personal I nip it in the bud immediately, but usually it’s all WHARRGARBBL, sometimes entertaining.

Comment #12: Patricia  on  06/15  at  06:53 PM

what I like about this blog is that it seems to be built on a foundation of skepticism, logic and reason, something that I don’t think is the case with SV, as much as I used to like it. It’s much more based on emotion over there, which is why there are problems with changing rules based on mood, etc. Not that there’s not a place for emotion, but if it’s not checked with reason, spiraling is inevitable.

Comment #13: liviaclaudia  on  06/15  at  06:54 PM

“people who want to talk about these issues in a more irreverent tone deserve a spot to hang out, too”

This is one of the things I love about Pandagon. People are passionate about the subjects being discussed, but they also see the inherant humor in many of the viewpoints shared (especially their own). That is what makes Pandagon one of my faves.

Comment #14: Mark  on  06/15  at  07:00 PM

but usually it’s all WHARRGARBBL

Okay, I’d never heard that one, and then I found the macro that goes with it, and I’m laughing fit to die.

Comment #15: Auguste  on  06/15  at  07:01 PM

I quite like the atmosphere here at Pandagon and appreciate your approach. I more or less understand the approach taken by some other blogs, but I find it restrictive and ultimately inefficient less useful for really hashing things out.

If you know who you are and what you believe and, more importantly, why you believe it, then disagreement or criticism - no matter how harsh or crude - isn’t going to do any real damage. I always find that when somebody’s criticisms really impact my feelings, it’s because there’s something in my own thinking that I need to look at more deeply. I consider that a good thing, not something to be avoided.

Comment #16: Phoebe Fay  on  06/15  at  07:02 PM

We all have our personal shit to deal with and it’s unfair to ask others to restrict their actions and speech so that we can pretend we’re coping with.

In a way it reminds me of how conservatives always claim that they want to restrict your speech because of the children.

Comment #17: pablo  on  06/15  at  07:04 PM

Oh man, I have been wanting to write something about why I am anti-trigger-warning (or even have a coherent position on why I am anti-trigger-warning) for at least a year, but I could never manage to articulate it. But this!

Even accepting that descriptions of sexual assault that are sometimes necessary to make a point are common triggers, I am uneasy with putting up the warnings, because it sends an uncomfortable signal that I don’t think women are smart enough to realize that when you quote a news article about a rape, it’s going to mention the rape in it.

is full of win. Thanks, Amanda.

Comment #18: m_leblanc  on  06/15  at  07:08 PM

Auguste:

You obviously don’t spend a lot of time on Fark.com, which is much to your credit.

Comment #19: Captain Bathrobe  on  06/15  at  07:11 PM

This is really disappointing to me.  I don’t think I need to go into all the reasons why, but when I hear people bitching about being PC, all it translates into for me is “I don’t want to take the time to consider the feelings of anyone who is not at the top of the various hierarchies in our society.”  I don’t see any real philosophical point being made in this post, I just see laziness.

But, as you said,  its your blog.  You have every right to let me know that it’s not worth your time to structure your blog in a way that is accessible to people with mental illnesses, or those who are just recovering from sexual assault.  Even when it’s as simple as writing two words.  But I’m kind of used to it—society has already let me know I’m not worth its time and consideration: my abuse was ignored, and my mental illness was dismissed.  I don’t know why I should expect any different from a progressive blog.  Maybe I’m just naive.

Still, the ‘why bother because ANYTHING can be a trigger?’ meme is just the worst.  You could have at least tried a little harder than that.

Comment #20: EGhead  on  06/15  at  07:13 PM

FWIW, Melissa McEwan has been clear that trolling was never the issue—it was regulars being thoughtless about their choices of language, particularly around violent imagery.

That’s the claim.  I found myself adopting more and more contrarian positions as the PC cloud got thicker there, and eventually I was banned for… not agreeing that letting Rick Warren speak at the inauguration was a big deal.  Seriously - this disagreement was cited as violating “safe space”.

I’m saddened. I liked the community there, and it was hard to see it slowly devolving down into a Little Green Circlejerk.  I’m not even too happy about the occasional banning here.

Comment #21: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/15  at  07:17 PM

EGhead, doesn’t using the word “bitch” in a pejorative fashion violate the standards of The Community?

Comment #22: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  07:21 PM

I’m not saying don’t consider people’s feelings.  We don’t do people who come in screaming abuse.  But conservatives who criticize “political correctness” are talking about basic decency and rejecting bigotry.  Obviously, no one’s endorsing bigotry or taking the ridiculous position that bigotry is somehow rebellious.  I’m just saying that here we’re simply interested in creating a community where people of good faith can say what they mean without worrying over much about stepping on toes.  Other spaces have different needs.  I fail to see the value in forcing everyone to conform to one way of doing things.

I really, really, really, really, really, really resent the idea that survivors of sexual assault, of which I am one, all have the same needs.  We don’t, and I personally really resent it when people use my experiences to bully others into accepting their standards.  If I were a nasty person, I’d say it’s “triggering”, but I’m not.  It’s simply insulting.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/15  at  07:23 PM

I can’t wait to see what Letterman does to those protestors. I might have to go buy myself a TV.

Comment #24: felagund  on  06/15  at  07:25 PM

Thinking more on this, here’s the reason I really like Amanda’s approach. Amanda’s approach assumes we’re all grown ups capable of handling our own shit and capable of deciding what material we do or do not want to read. She does not assume we are delicate flowers who must be “protected” from something or other.

I really love being treated like a grown-up.

Comment #25: Phoebe Fay  on  06/15  at  07:28 PM

These comments are very interesting because I have never post at Shakesville, and have only read the occasional post when someone else linked to it.  But I know exactly the atmosphere that is being described by some who have commented here because that is what I found the Feministing commentators to be like.  PC taken to extremes and dogpiling on the idiot who stepped in it.  But, I still like Feministing because the bloggers there themselves are very smart and they do something that is very important.  I just don’t comment there.  You have to find the place that i most comfortable for you. 

Personally I never get so invested in an online “community” that I can’t walk away from it, and I think it’s a mistake to do that.  But it happens a lot.

Comment #26: Lady Vader  on  06/15  at  07:29 PM

One more thing about the associations of language in various blog communities.  At Shakesville there’s a continual refrain of Melissa and other front-pagers calling each other “asshole.”  If “fuck you” has connotations of rape, couldn’t it be said that using “asshole” as an insult, i.e., making the anus something demeaning, has resonances with homophobia and homophobic violence?  Do you think that anyone would take that comment seriously?

Comment #27: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  07:34 PM

And if we’re going to take “lame” seriously as an example of “ableist” language, shouldn’t the same apply to “idiot” and “dumb”?

Comment #28: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  07:36 PM

I’m not sure what ‘The Community’ is, but I actually think you’re right.  I shouldn’t have used it, and I’m glad someone called me on it.

See? This shit isn’t hard.  It requires a bit of patience and reflection, but that’s it.  And as Renee at Womanist-Musings said so well in her post about ‘lame,’ if it’s not a big deal, then what’s the big deal about not using it?

If a lot of people would feel better with ‘trigger warning’ at the top of certain posts, there is no real reason to deny doing it except if you don’t value those people as readers.  Which was made clear here.

Comment #29: EGhead  on  06/15  at  07:37 PM

Oh, God, I *hate* the vilification of the word “lame”.  I think the last time it was used to describe a human being was in, I don’t know, 1896?

And I always thought “fuck you” was a shorter version of “go fuck yourself”, which implied “go fuck yourself, because no one else is willing to have sex with you.”

Comment #30: Maureen  on  06/15  at  07:40 PM

however, Letterman is an old school “male chauvinist pig” and should be called out on it, but preferably by someone else with more credibility. Palin tends to turn legitimate complaints into a sideshow joke, somehow. Not saying it’s all her fault, but she’s been a vortex of disingenuousness, and ultimately is probably not helping the feminist cause….that’s what I’m afraid of here.

Comment #31: liviaclaudia  on  06/15  at  07:43 PM

@ EGhead: I’m not sold on blog commenters as a “community” that enforces standards, so I was goofing on that.  Different blogs will arrive at different points of equilibrium between being respectful and sensitive, being able to challenge one another, and not feeling like you’re always looking over your shoulder because The Elders are monitoring you.  Shakesville’s point of equilibrium has lately felt off-putting to me; Pandagon’s point of equilibrium feels like a better climate.  As the old Internetz saying goes, YMMV.

Comment #32: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  07:45 PM

I don’t necessarily agree with Renee’s analysis of ‘lame,’ but seeing as how she’s in a wheelchair and I’m not—and I’m guessing you aren’t either—maybe we should actually put a little weight in what she has to say.  Terrifying concept, having to listen to people who are actually the ones affected by such language.


Yes, there are some people who don’t use ‘fuck you’ either, but not for the reasons you describe.

Anyway, this is all far off-track from my original point, which was that it’s ridiculous to refuse to use ‘trigger warning,’ especially because not all posts that mention violence are clearly (or even mostly) about such things.

Comment #33: EGhead  on  06/15  at  07:45 PM

Nothing to do with the whole trigger warning thing, but I am old enough that I distinctly remember way back when, like in the late 80s, in the lefty circles I ran in, “politically correct,” was generally used as good-natured self-mockery.

Comment #34: Bella  on  06/15  at  07:45 PM

EGhead:

1) The thesis wasn’t that these considerations take work, but that they stand in the way of the kind of conversation we want to have—detailed, direct, irreverent, and humorous. Communities form with different rules based on different needs, and these are the ones that work here.

2) FlipYrWhig’s point, as I read it, wasn’t that you shouldn’t have used the word “bitch,” but that your using it was somewhat hypocritical. That kinda sniping may not be particularly helpful. (I still love you, FlipYrWhig).

Klan rallies have different rules, too. We (try to) push them out of the mainstream because we believe the mainstream should have different, more broadly accommodating rules—yes, causing many assholes to chaffe. But they still get to have their Klan rallies.

Pandagon isn’t a Klan rally, but it isn’t exactly the mainstream either—though I think most of the same rules apply. If you need more or less or different rules to feel comfortable, I think that’s okay, I’m open to that, and in our (hypothetical) direct interactions I’d try to be accomodating.

But rather than assert your own rights and needs—which are acknowledged, uncontested, as being legitimate—what do you have to say about the idea that creating an environment that meets your needs would also be one where we don’t get to have the conversation we want to have?

Comment #35: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  07:49 PM

It’s a difficult line to walk. When I was blogging, my philosophy was basically—never mind the bollocks, here’s the feminist gamers… if I sat there trying to be so lighthearted and casual about stuff that my site was indistinguishable from Joystiq, Kotaku, Destructoid, or any of the other legion of gaming blogs out there, then it was just one less space that women who felt disenfranchised by those places could feel comfortable. I wasn’t going to bow and scrape to the gamer boys that flooded my site demanding that I lighten up that I drove away people who really saw the site as a haven from the obnoxious dreck out there. And Pandagon is a LOT like that: most of the progressive blogs that aren’t pointedly feminist have a tendency to be filled with obnoxious “I’d hit that” liberal jerkoffs who can’t stand to have anyone question their privilege. So I read Pandagon because I know that people like that won’t be tolerated.

Unfortunately, we live in a culture where rape is cheap. It’s especially cheap when you look at the more “juvenile” forms of entertainment. Seriously, look at how it’s used in action movies and graphic novels that are supposed to be edgy and dark. Sin City is one long patriarchal rape fantasy after another. Any time you want to suggest that someone is “bad,” he rapes or threatens to rape a female protagonist or important secondary character.

I think that one of the reasons we have people using the term “rape” as a casual verb (eg, “omg I was totally raped by that take-home test.”) is a form of backlash against this cheapness that we’ve come to rely on in our consumption of entertainment.

But hey, that’s why it’s called a Rape Culture.

Still, there are times that it gets to me, and I’m not even a survivor/victim/whathaveyou of sexual assault. There are times when the man on the screen makes a menacing gesture to the women and implies that it would be oh-so-easy to break her sexually (ooh! Titillating!) that I roll my eyes and think “God Dammit, for once I’d like to see the badguy be a badguy as more than just a rapist. I’d like to see a woman as a vehicle for the plot other than as a potential victim of rape to reinforce just how bad the badguy is.”

So I figure, if it bugs me when someone breaks out the “rape” card and it’s not even tied to personal baggage of my own experience, how would it feel to actually have every crappy RPG or Alan Moore graphic novel or Hollywood Shoot-Em-Up reinforce that my rape was not just common, but just shy of an unavoidable consequence of having a vag?

I’ve never felt that trigger warnings are a bad idea. There are times when I feel that they’re a little over-used, and like it was said—if you are recovering from a serious traumatic rape that will have regular feminist site blogsurfing a veritable minefield of potential meltdown material, get yourself to therapy right quick because blogs aren’t “more rapetastic” than the rest of the world out there. But then, when I see “trigger warning” I immediately translate that to “blood pressure warning” so there’s that, I suppose.

Comment #36: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/15  at  07:50 PM

Maureen, I think “fuck you” is an evolution of “damn you,” which actually makes sense. As sexual terms replaced sacrilegious ones, “fuck” replaced “damn” and a phrase and expression firmly rooted in American culture and language ended up making a little less sense.

Anyway, that’s what David Milch tells me.

Comment #37: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  07:50 PM

I think it goes like this:

Trying not to upset ME is basic human decency
Trying not to upset YOU is political correctness
Trying not to upset HER is stifling dissent just like the Nazis!!1!

I love both here and Shakesville, but like Amanda says, they serve different functions. There’s enough internet for everyone.

Comment #38: MissPrism  on  06/15  at  07:51 PM

IMHO “Trigger warning” starts to be a bit like “Parental Advisory, Explicit Content” or “Viewer Discretion Advised.”  It’s meant to be cautionary but it’s also running the risk of sensationalism:  “Horrors await Behind The Fold!  Do you dare to click?”

Comment #39: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  07:52 PM

Etymological digression having nothing to do with the issue at hand. Just offered for information.

Sexual imagery, even if vague and nonsensical, is meant to elicit an emotional response that some may be more sensitive to. I certainly don’t use the phrase in professional settings. Interestingly, in my last relationship, that was kinda the ultimate breakdown line—when we’d exchange “fuck you"s. Never got much more personal or hurtful that that. Go us.

Comment #40: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  07:53 PM

Any time you want to suggest that someone is “bad,” he rapes or threatens to rape a female protagonist or important secondary character.

Okay, completely off the main topic, but my prime offender in that category was Heat.  Seriously, Michael Mann didn’t think the audience would figure out that the guy who betrayed the whole group was bad unless he raped and murdered someone onscreen?  WTF?  That said way more about Mann as an artist than I ever wanted to know.

Comment #41: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  07:55 PM

Have to say I agree completely with EGhead here-I’m really disappointed.  I feel like all this whining about having to be PC is really just laziness on the part of more privileged people.  It’s not a big deal to consider other people’s feelings when you speak, at all.  Saying we’re demanding too much is classic minimizing behavior.  We all fuck up sometimes and say the wrong thing, and you might feel hurt or angry if you’re called on it-but that’s part of growing up, is recognizing how certain things affect certain people and considering their feelings.  There’s a big difference between government censorship being advocated, ie “think of the children,” a “hey, saying this hurts my feelings because x/y/z” and asking for you to take some time to think about it.

And putting trigger warnings does not assume women are delicate flowers at all.  It’s just a warning that whatever topic is very graphic/victim blaming so if you’re having a bad day, and giving women the choice to look at the material or not.  If the woman feels comfortable seeing that stuff at the moment, she can look anyway.  If not, she can move on without having to relive her traumatic experience It would be patronizing and degrading if they were barred from the information completely (ie gag policy), in a “you-can’t-handle-it” fashion-but that’s not what’s going on at all.  It’s giving them a choice.

Comment #42: Tokidoki  on  06/15  at  07:55 PM

2) FlipYrWhig’s point, as I read it, wasn’t that you shouldn’t have used the word “bitch,” but that your using it was somewhat hypocritical. That kinda sniping may not be particularly helpful. (I still love you, FlipYrWhig).

Yeah, I was role-playing as scold.  You’re right, it’s probably not helpful if the point is to have an actual conversation rather than drive-by snark.  (‘Drive-by’ is probably not the best wording either in this context…)

Comment #43: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  07:56 PM

And as Renee at Womanist-Musings said so well in her post about ‘lame,’ if it’s not a big deal, then what’s the big deal about not using it?

Because I’m not sure that the vilification of the word ‘lame’ was done out of respect for people so much as the opportunity to one-up someone, for the simple reason that the word ‘lame’ as a descriptive term for people with disabilities has been out of use for a long time.

Comment #44: Maureen  on  06/15  at  07:57 PM

Caton, I’m curious to hear you explain a little more about how you think the commenters at Shakesville and Feministing are similar. I see those two blogs as having very different approaches to comment moderation that lead to pretty different comment threads. At Feministing, there’s a fairly lax ban policy, and there are a lot of young/new feminists, so the same 101-type questions/offensive statements keep coming up, and then people will yell back and forth until the comment thread devolves into totally off-topic personal attacks. I just gave up on reading the threads there a few months ago (after having read them for a few years). At Shakesville, it seems to me that the general awareness level is higher (e.g. basically everyone there already knows not to call Ann Coulter a “tranny” or suggest that fat people should just diet and exercise). I’m not privy to what the moderators do there, so they might be filtering out some of the more provocative/clueless stuff before I see it. But however it happens, the comment threads at those two sites seem really dissimilar to me.

Comment #45: JessSnark  on  06/15  at  07:58 PM

Coming from the feminist science fiction convention in Madison this year, where there are a large portion of people with visible disabilities, and the con tries hard to pay attention to disability issues—Yes, the word “lame” was a big sticking point for a lot of people with and without visual disabilities. It seemed to me to be more of an issue this year than it was last year. I was present on two occasions when commenters at panels were asked to rephrase to avoid the word (I did the asking myself once, after noticing the very uncomfortable audience reaction).

I am not physically disabled. However, it was very clear to me from that incident, as well from general reading around the disability blogosphere, that “lame” is a word that many people who are disabled (visibly or invisibly) take great issue with. It is relatively easy for me to cut the word out of my vocabulary in deference to their sensibility.

I have no way of knowing directly how much pain the word causes, but I take them at face value when they indicate it is substantial.

I bring this up because here, and at Apostate in discussions of Shakesville, policing of the word “lame” has been held up as an ultimate example of PCness run amok. I really think that’s a bad formulation. Among other things, there are words like “dick” which had been explicitly cut out of the vocabulary at Shakesville that provide much lower hanging fruit (pardon my pun) when it comes to arguing against hyper-monitoring of language—and these words don’t involve specifically countering the wishes of a group that intersects with, but is often left out of, feminist discussion.

Comment #46: Mandolin  on  06/15  at  08:03 PM

Any time you want to suggest that someone is “bad,” he rapes or threatens to rape a female protagonist or important secondary character.

OK, as long as we’re on this, this is one of the issues I tried to hash out on Shakesville once and came up at an impasse of irreconcilable views.  Isn’t using rape as a sign of irredeemable evil a suggestion that rape is an extremely serious crime, at which the audience is presumed to be viscerally appalled?  Is it the accretion of evil = rape plot points that trivializes it? 

This gets back to the “trigger” idea for me:  if a plot hinges on rape or other kinds of violence as Bad Things, it seems to still “trigger,” even if the plot is constructed to show that the rapist or the violence-monger did something horrifying and doesn’t deserve to get away with it.  Can rape and violence ever be depicted “responsibly,” to educate the audience about how atrocious they are?  Or is it always an example of titillation and cheap thrills, regardless of the creator’s polemical intent?

Comment #47: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  08:07 PM

We’ve gotten more than our share of requests to implement a “safe space” philosophy to this blog, and speaking for myself, I’ve largely chosen not to go with that.  In part, it’s because we identify as a liberal blog with feminist leanings, and that language tends to be more in effect in spaces that are more pure feminism.  But also, I was blogging long before it became fashionable to do things like put ”trigger warnings” on posts, or talk about safe spaces, and as these things started to crop up, I thought it just didn’t really fit into the irreverent tone we like to strike at Pandagon.  In addition, though I know this goes directly against the intentions of these concepts, the use of trigger warnings signals to people who are reading for general political information that this post is for a very select group—-people recovering from sexual or other kinds of abuse—-which sends the unfortunate signal that discussions of gender violence or other hate crimes aren’t important for other people.  So, I avoided it.

This sounds like sober sense to me.

And thank you for having an unusually open blog, and banning trolls only when the fail the ‘stick test’.

Comment #48: atheist  on  06/15  at  08:07 PM

However, it was very clear to me from that incident, as well from general reading around the disability blogosphere, that “lame” is a word that many people who are disabled (visibly or invisibly) take great issue with. It is relatively easy for me to cut the word out of my vocabulary in deference to their sensibility.

Ah.  I wasn’t aware of this.  Stupid privilege.

I apologize for asserting that the word’s condemnation was not sincere, and I will try not to use the word any more.

Comment #49: Maureen  on  06/15  at  08:09 PM

And putting trigger warnings does not assume women are delicate flowers at all.  It’s just a warning that whatever topic is very graphic/victim blaming so if you’re having a bad day, and giving women the choice to look at the material or not.

Why are you assuming that the only people who could be triggered by violent topics are women?  There are plenty of men out there who have been physically or sexually abused.

Comment #50: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  08:10 PM

“Isn’t using rape as a sign of irredeemable evil a suggestion that rape is an extremely serious crime, at which the audience is presumed to be viscerally appalled?  Is it the accretion of evil = rape plot points that trivializes it? “

Whig—the problem is that the writing becomes not about the victim, but about characterizing the aggressor. It’s a focus problem. It’s basically the equivalent of always killing the girlfriend off so that the male main character’s arc can be developed. It’s a way of stereotypically using women’s bodies, in cliche ways, to score cheap emotional points. Tempest (The Angry Black Woman) wrote about it recently on VanderMeer’s blog from a writer’s POV. Let me see if I can hunt it down.

Comment #51: Mandolin  on  06/15  at  08:10 PM

Didn’t expect to find it so fast. ABW’s article which includes some thoughts about rape as a tool in genre fiction is Dear Genre Fiction Writers: Quit This Shit, and it’s here: http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/

Comment #52: Mandolin  on  06/15  at  08:11 PM

“Ah.  I wasn’t aware of this.  Stupid privilege.”

Fair enough. wink

Comment #53: Mandolin  on  06/15  at  08:15 PM

It’s a way of stereotypically using women’s bodies, in cliche ways, to score cheap emotional points.

Understood, and that makes sense, and thanks for the link.  Establishing when the rape plot is lazy/cliche and when it’s responsible might be difficult.  _Boys Don’t Cry_ is probably intensely triggering to a lot of people, but is it catering to cheap thrills and voyeurism?

Comment #54: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  08:21 PM

” Establishing when the rape plot is lazy/cliche and when it’s responsible might be difficult.”

Yeah, you can get some genuine disagreement b/w well-meaning people on specific examples.

But—and I speak as a writer here—this is also the kind of criticism that comes up in workshops. And with work-in-progress or work by amateurs you can often really, really, really tell. (For instance: the creepy guy I had to work with for a number of months who put lovingly detailed rape fantasies in every one of his stories, along with a details that made it very clear they were meant as erotica.)

“_Boys Don’t Cry_ is probably intensely triggering to a lot of people, but is it catering to cheap thrills and voyeurism?”

Been a long time since I’ve seen the movie, but the answer seems to be clearly no—the sexual assaults, if I recall them correctly, are done with awareness of the character as a psychological entity and not just a set of bog-standard stereotypes.

Comment #55: Mandolin  on  06/15  at  08:29 PM

Agreed—I guess my point is that if avoiding “triggering” and eschewing the commercialization of rape and violence are two very highly placed ethical imperatives, something like _Boys Don’t Cry_—which is pretty graphic, and was commercial insofar as it hoped to sell tickets—could end up on the wrong side of a line.  And those are GOOD ethical imperatives, too, obviously, which shows how hard it is to balance being sensitive and “safe” with being polemical and righteously confrontational.

Comment #56: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  08:46 PM

I bring this up because here, and at Apostate in discussions of Shakesville, policing of the word “lame” has been held up as an ultimate example of PCness run amok. I really think that’s a bad formulation.

I’m one of those people who believes that people who run their blogs are free to implement their own standards, regardless of how absurd it might seem to us. No one, after all, is criticizing other blogs for not hewing to the same standards. If Shakesville wants to ban the use of the word “lame,” that’s something at the discretion of the blogger. If Shakesville starts indicting Amanda and Jesse for failure to crack down on commenters using the term “lame” on pandagon, then that’s going to provoke some tension.

Comment #57: Tyro  on  06/15  at  08:53 PM

Thanks for the Boys Don’t Cry point. I was starting to feel bad—that maybe I was just being lazy.

We live in a world full of shocking substance.

Comment #58: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  08:55 PM

I’ve always personally hated rape plotlines in most TV shows.  It is a unicorn-rare event where it is done as a valid artistic statement.  I loathe the fact that pretty much every single woman in a mainstream TV drama knows that as soon as she starts working a stopwatch starts with her, counting down to the time that the writers decide that it’s time for her to be raped as a Dramatic Event.

Comment #59: seeker6079  on  06/15  at  09:01 PM

Yeah, it’s been a fascinating few weeks on feminist blogs. I watched both the thing at Shakesville and IBTP unfold mostly in real time, and also participated in the ‘cuntalina’ business at Twisty’s. (And I’d respecfully disagree entirely with PhysioProf‘s take on the IBTP discussions. A feminist blogger called a woman a variant of cunt. It was entirely within reason that the blog’s readers said “WTF is THAT all about?”. Then everyone said their piece.)

I think an issue central to both was: to what extent does a blog’s commentariat have a say in the course of a blog? If the blogger or a post on their blog is disagreeable to those who read and/or comment, how much dissent is allowed before it becomes a “pile-on”? When is it ‘rebellion’, and when is it simple disagreement? 

And because it’s the progressive/feminist blogosphere we’re talking about, when does “rebellion”/disagreement become fodder for the right? When does cohesion trump internecine argument?

I sure don’t know answers to any of the above. But it’s damned interesting.

Comment #60: mir  on  06/15  at  09:02 PM

Reading Chris Muir will make you crazy.  Or nauseous.  Or both.  Just sayin’.

Comment #61: DrDick  on  06/15  at  09:03 PM

I find Shakespeare’s Sister to be a bad focus for a discussion on trigger warnings and pc because I think some of the people there tend to act in bad faith around the use of language so they can be bullies.

Comment #62: shah8  on  06/15  at  09:12 PM

“There’s a big difference between government censorship being advocated, ie “think of the children,” a “hey, saying this hurts my feelings because x/y/z” and asking for you to take some time to think about it. “

I think this has always been my problem with Shakesville.  I ... don’t care about your feelings.  I’m going to follow the appropriate rules that are expected in polite society but if saying “fuck you” or “that’s lame” somehow hurts your feelings beyond that of a reasonable person/feminist, then the internet isn’t the place for you spend your free time.  I’ve read enough comment threads about the triggering possibilities of “douchebag,” “lame,” “bitch,” and everything else that at this point, if I haven’t excised it from my language, I’m not going to because your feelings aren’t as important to me as having an entire language of colorful things to say is.  There’s something very, very emotionally unhealthy about people who get literally hurt by what they read on the internet and I’m not going to enable that to the point where I’m too scared to disagree or show my own emotion about how upset I am.  I just do not care enough about your feelings.

There are very few comment threads I bother to read and Pandagon is the only blog whose comments I read regularly.  There are some amazing commentators here that I always scan for and I like having my boundaries pushed.

Comment #63: Rachel,II  on  06/15  at  09:17 PM

Wrong, Eghead. There’s setting a tone and choices that convey certain info. I explained why not. That you dismissed my actual reasons and put words in my mouth—-and tried to imply that all rape victims agree with you, which I do believe is what people call “erasing”—-says to me you have no interest in genuine dialogue.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/15  at  09:17 PM

feel like all this whining about having to be PC is really just laziness on the part of more privileged people.  It’s not a big deal to consider other people’s feelings when you speak, at all.  Saying we’re demanding too much is classic minimizing behavior.

I think what you’re missing here, though, is that some of the people telling you that they find things like trigger warnings problematic have themselves experienced sexual violence.  These people aren’t speaking from privilege, but from a diversity of experience (and response to experience) of oppression.

This seems to me like evidence for Amanda’s point that explicit trigger warnings limit the range of people who feel welcome in a discussion of sexual violence, and what they feel comfortable saying if they do take part.  Is it possible that this limited sample in other communities has contributed to your apparent lack of appreciation for a spectrum of approach between utter sensitive victimhood and complete privileged callousness?

Comment #65: themmases  on  06/15  at  09:20 PM

There are plenty of men out there who have been physically or sexually abused.

They are suppose to subject their experience to what someone once termed the Anglo-Saxon approach to desserts and emotions—freeze them and hide them in your belly.

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/15  at  09:21 PM

No, not wrong.  I didn’t put any words in your mouth, and I dismissed your reasoning because it makes no practical sense.  I also never claimed to speak for all rape victims—hell I didn’t even claim to BE a rape victim.  I was speaking for people who appreciate the trigger warning label.  But thank you for putting words in MY mouth.

And themmasses, if you’re a survivor who is not triggered by something, that is a privilege you have over other survivors who ARE.

If anyone is worried about how being ‘PC’ will affect speech, maybe they should consider what speech that’s affecting; and what voices will be lost by refusing to be ‘PC.’

Comment #67: EGhead  on  06/15  at  09:27 PM

Even many of the shows that don’t actually have rapes have a pretty skeevy pornographic attitude toward depictions of Women in Peril—you have the the evil gloating guy, you have the terrified (or sometimes terrified-but-trying-to-be-brave) partially-clad and expertly-tousled secondary character struggling just enough to raise a diffusely-reflecting sheen of sweat that highlights her toned body and perfect skin…. It’s a way for (male) viewers to get off on the violent abuse while still ostensibly rooting for the good guys.

As a former moderator of a trying-to-be-safe space I don’t have a lot to add to the discussion above, except to say that every policy fails in its own way and that a strong community is ultimately more effective than any nominal policy, because there will always be people pushing the envelope (knowingly or unconsciously) from every direction—the people who want to get away with nastiness or obtuseness that goes a little past the edge, and the ones who want to limit anything that could freak out anyone at all. I’m sometimes amazed that these sites happen at all…

Comment #68: paul  on  06/15  at  09:27 PM

I’m just saying that here we’re simply interested in creating a community where people of good faith can say what they mean without worrying over much about stepping on toes.

I think that Pandagon does very well at this. I don’t think that there’s ever been a blog that’s mroe centrally about “women’s interests” that doesn’t get into a bit of “who or what is more feminist” at some point. Which really leads to posts with little to no sense of humour and it gets boring and dry.
That’s what I like about Pandagon - it is not dry. Far from it.

Comment #69: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/15  at  09:29 PM

Boys Don’t Cry is probably intensely triggering to a lot of people, but is it catering to cheap thrills and voyeurism?

I was lucky enough to attend a seminar a couple of weeks ago where one of the participants was Kimberly Peirce, the writer/director of Boys Don’t Cry and she had something really interesting to say about that.  Apparently, in one cut of the film the rape itself was very emotionally intense, but she felt that it threw the ending off-balance.  In Peirce’s final cut, the truly damaging thing for Brandon is not the actual rape, but having to recount it to the unsympathetic police, and that’s where Peirce put the emotional emphasis.  Peirce felt that she deliberately toned down the rape to put the emphasis where it belonged, story-wise.

Of course, that’s a tricky one because it’s based on a true story.  Can you completely cut out the event that led directly to Brandon Teena’s murder?

Comment #70: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  09:31 PM

Also, Toki, I’m sorry you’re disappointed. Now you know how trigger warnings often make me feel—-disappointed. I don’t like feeling like prominent feminists think an incident in my past makes me too broken to deal, and I want this to be a place where survivors who don’t appreciate the trigger treatment can go. You can’t be all things to all people, and I really don’t know why the feelings of survivors like me don’t count as much.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/15  at  09:31 PM

Rachel,II, you don’t have to care, but you also don’t have to comment.

Or like or read Shakesville at all.

But why on earth should someone have to change their *own* blog rules, ones that they made for a reasons that suit them, so that you can behave however you like?

Comment #72: ElleDee  on  06/15  at  09:35 PM

You put words in my mouth. You said my reasoning is I don’t care. I said that we’re setting a different tone. You then dismissed my actual concerns from actual experience. The “good” victim stereotype comes to mind, which is exactly the stereotype I feel I have a right to reject. Believe me, there’s a lot of pressure to be broken if you’ve been raped, and trigger warnings can unintentionally feed that. Maybe those of us who do better without that deserve a place, even if we violate others’ expectations for what they want from rape victims.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/15  at  09:44 PM

It’s not a big deal to consider other people’s feelings when you speak, at all. 

Passive aggressive much?

Comment #74: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  09:46 PM

Amanda, trigger warnings also assume that people can’t read post titles or skim to see if it is something.  Pretty patronizing.

It was extreme censorship overload that killed the healthy thriving alt-mom community at HipMama.  It got so utterly ridiculous that you couldn’t say “I went and had Chinese food at that new place some immigrants opened and it was tasty” without getting a moderator attacking you for racism and reciting a bunch of ridiculous rules that completely stifled and censored all conversation in the name of “anti-racism”.  Moderation has a place, but censorship and attempts to control all discourse through intensive pressure and peer pressure was what many were escaping the mommyblogs and general parenting society for.

That’s what I like about Pandagon: people will take issue with you directly, but there is no “we are going to root out every last vestige of this or that real or imagined in this space and it will change the world” here.

Comment #75: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  09:53 PM

I simply don’t understand how trigger warnings can be so offensive to you as a survivor.  It’s not about playing into any sort of narrative; it’s that, for some of us, especially some of us with mental illnesses, we get triggered. If my reality is patronizing to you, then it’s obvious that you do not in fact care—you’re more concerned with how other people will perceive YOU than with the daily struggles that some of us have to face.

Comment #76: EGhead  on  06/15  at  09:54 PM

I find Shakespeare’s Sister to be a bad focus for a discussion on trigger warnings and pc because I think some of the people there tend to act in bad faith around the use of language so they can be bullies.

This.  I think, too, that many people there were so eager to police the language that even many acting in good faith ended up being bullies.  I got a real flavour not of debate (which one gets here), but of other posters waiting for the first opportunity to jump and point fingers.  I was always hesitant to debate there simply because I didn’t think that debate was the purpose of the blog; I thought that mutual self-reinforcement was.

Comment #77: seeker6079  on  06/15  at  09:54 PM

Mandolin  on  06/15  at  07:03 PM
Coming from the feminist science fiction convention in Madison this year, where there are a large portion of people with visible disabilities, and the con tries hard to pay attention to disability issues—Yes, the word “lame” was a big sticking point for a lot of people with and without visual disabilities.

I have used the phrase “beaten like a red-headed stepchild” perhaps two times in my life, and I may have merely been reading it aloud the first time—I cannot remember.

The second time I used it, an associate of mine took offense because he had red hair, he had a stepfather, and his stepfather beat him.

He was charitable enough to note the irony (given the term’s rarity) and I apologized.

That being the case, while I am honestly closed to shocked that lame is offensive, I will be careful about the term in the future. (I was confused for some time when I learned that little people preferred that term or dwarf to the term “midget,” too, so I make no assumptions about terms of address anymore, personally.)

Comment #78: No One of Consequence  on  06/15  at  09:55 PM

I’m finding this fascinating because Panda and Shakes are my two very favorite blogs—and I participate as actively as work leaves me time for.  And the reason I love both is that they are so very very different.  I adore Amanda’s “balls to the wall"approach and I love Melissa’s turn of phrase.  And I’m willing to abide by rules so that I can continue to interject my $.02.  I’m probably just mostly overfond of the sight of my own comments.

As far as trigger warnings go, speaking as a woman who has NOT been raped or assaulted, I do not feel excluded from those conversations or posts at all—but I’m also not going to speak for all non-rape-victims/survivors.  If the issue is society ignoring or minimizing rape or attacking rape culture, etc., then I take part gladly and without reserve.  If the topic is readers’ personal experience with rape/assault/harassment then I keep my mouth shut—but that’s determined by the content, and has nothing to do with whether it has a trigger warning on it or not.

Comment #79: Siobhan  on  06/15  at  09:56 PM

That’s what I like about Pandagon: people will take issue with you directly, but there is no “we are going to root out every last vestige of this or that real or imagined in this space and it will change the world” here.
Ms Kate on 06/15 at 08:53 PM

This.  For example, nobody gives Ms Kate any static for the fact that she is assiduously resurrecting SPECTRE.

Comment #80: seeker6079  on  06/15  at  09:56 PM

paul:  It’s a way for (male) viewers to get off on the violent abuse while still ostensibly rooting for the good guys.

It definitely _can_ be.  But determining when rape in film is guilt-free pornification and when it’s not is something that’s going to be subject to dispute. 

The “commercialization” or “commodification” point feels like a good rule:  making rape into entertainment sounds unequivocally loathsome.  But what if the purpose of that entertainment is consciousness-raising?  Does it matter?  Whom do you trust to be able to walk that line? 

Part of my struggle with “triggering” as a concept is that it feels to me that the contexts around or the intentions behind depictions-that-trigger _ought_ to matter:  if the rapist is punished and the audience instructed by the example, is rape still being treated casually?  (Sadly, often the answer is yes, as Mandolin was discussing earlier.)  But I also trust that the viewers who report being triggered _regardless of context_ are sincere, and their sensitivities legitimate.  As far as I can tell, triggering doesn’t need to follow narrative or be bound to the dispensing of rewards and punishments in poetic justice.  That’s why I’m not sure that a policy can be formulated that avoids triggers (good) and also enables the depiction of would-be triggering events in the service of reform, lament, or political pressure (also good).

Comment #81: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  09:58 PM

@ Mnemosyne—Thanks for the detail about Peirce and _Boys Don’t Cry_.  Sounds like an awesome event.

Comment #82: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  10:01 PM

you’re more concerned with how other people will perceive YOU than with the daily struggles that some of us have to face.

Passive aggressive much?

Yes, demanding the world conform to your particular issues so as not to offend you, and doing so with guilt and shame words is about as passive aggressive as it gets.

I could easily say that this particular sentence is triggering to me as a feminist because it contains the culturally programmed demand that women must always care about the feelings of others above their own and alter their behavior accordingly so as not to offend.  Have you considered that?

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  10:04 PM

Personally I feel that people are responsible for regulating the media they consume, and, as long as a blog maintains a consistent tone (i.e. not suddenly putting up wildly offensive things out of the blue), I don’t see what the issue is - people can self-censor.  Relatedly, if there is a value in triggering warnings and the like, I think it is outweighed by the need to continually second guess yourself when communicating anything with heat behind it or posting about something graphic.  From my perspective, and I’ve been lurking here for years, there’s a fine discourse here without the need for draconian measures.

Comment #84: Tim P.  on  06/15  at  10:07 PM

The wisdom of anthropomorphizing penguins.

Comment #85: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  10:08 PM

One more thing about “triggering” around Shakesville—in the meta-commentary about recent events there, it was interesting to note how many people felt that the atmosphere of having to watch what they said and what everyone else said—the “walking on eggshells” feeling—_was itself triggering_.

Comment #86: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  10:10 PM

Thanks, Eg, you’re really proving the need for diversity. I suspect I’m far from the only survivor who finds trigger warnings frustrating, but we’re easy to cow because we don’t fit the established mold. Look, I can refrain from resenting people who prefer that, surelyvyou can refrain from resenting those of us who have different approaches, particularly as you haven’t been there yourself.

Comment #87: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/15  at  10:14 PM

JessSnark, they might not be the same, I am unfamilar with Shakesville.  It’s just that they sounded similar from people’s descriptions. 

Interestingly, the word lame was brought up on this thread.  That was the final incident for me over at Feminsting. Someone had posted “how lame” about someone else.  Not about another poster, but about whichever idiot right winger was the subject of the blog post.  And she gets all jumped on about her “ableist” langauge.  So then one of the actual board owners jumps in with the same thing, and someone else says “to be honest I thought that was a joke”.  Well, the dogpile started.  So then somone actually posts about the person’s ableist “Privilege”.  Now, I’m one of the idiots who has no idea wtf any of them are going o about.  Do you know how long it took me to realize that they were saying that using “lame’ was insulting to handicapped people?  This is because I don’t think of lame that way!  I am of the generation where when you say “that’s so lame” it means, man that is sucky, stupid, not worth showing up for.

Now, I am totally open to being educated about a word hurting someone.  But I didn’t even know what ableist privilege was, and I thought it was rather ironic that a bunch of people who probably held master’s degrees and did know what ableist privilege was, were lecturing someone else about their alleged privilege.  The most important point being; someone like me who has an open mind and who was totally open to someone saying, hey, you know if you think back to real meaning of the word lame, you can kinda see how that might offend someone with a physical disability.  LIghtbulb!  But instead, there is this intellectually masturbatory “look at me I’m so fucking much better than you” snarling and sneering.  WTF?  It reminds me of that song “I"m a better anarchist than you”.  I tend to post here because no one here has ever approached a thought that way.  There’s more openess to discussion, more intellectual curiosity rather than intellectual dogma.

Anyway, that is just one example, there are plenty of others.  It’s very possible that the problems over at Shakesville were the same and yet, very different.  Or, not the same at all but just sounded familar to someone who has not experieced them first hand.

Comment #88: Lady Vader  on  06/15  at  10:15 PM

What about non-sexually related trauma?

I’ll be honest. Teenage. Mutant. Ninja. Turtles. No, I’m not kidding. See, right before my parents took me to see it at the drive-in, I had a near-drowning experience in our backyard pool. I was goofing off and fell in the pool and it had the tarp up, and I came up in the middle, but there was no oxygen in there, so I got the drowning reflex. (I suspect that’s what being waterborded feels like, to be honest). So whenever I hear TMNT, I feel back to a drowning feeling. (I’m kinda gasping right now)

I think that trigger safety really depends on the context, however that said, it’s something I think that you need to be careful about. You don’t want it to look like it’s arbitrary, because when it is, people are going to feel bullied. You can’t avoid it.

So less is probably better than more. I think most online communities have these in one form or another. Again, the problem is when they’re ever growing and seemingly out of the blue. When you can’t be sure of what they are, that’s a problem.

Comment #89: Karmakin  on  06/15  at  10:18 PM

Why are you assuming that the only people who could be triggered by violent topics are women?  There are plenty of men out there who have been physically or sexually abused.

I’m really sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply or assume that only women can be triggered (since I know differently).  I was trying to refute the argument against trigger warnings that a warning mplies that women are unable or too stupid to take care of themselves, so I started from that angle and just kept using she.  I thought about if it could be taken that way when I was typing, but since the issue was about implying women aren’t smart enough to realize it will be triggered, I used she and assumed people would get why from context. I shouldn’t have assumed it would be understood (especially considering how little abuse of men is talked about), and I’m really sorry if I made anyone feel invisible.

Now you know how trigger warnings often make me feel—-disappointed. I don’t like feeling like prominent feminists think an incident in my past makes me too broken to deal, and I want this to be a place where survivors who don’t appreciate the trigger treatment can go. You can’t be all things to all people, and I really don’t know why the feelings of survivors like me don’t count as much.

It’s not that you’re feelings don’t count or are less valid at all. I see the trigger warning as sort of an asking if you’re in a safe space, not an implication that you’re too broken to deal with whatever story/discussion is going on (since you still have the choice of ignoring the warning).  I don’t think you should change your blog or how you feel-I can see where you’re coming from-I just disagree that it’s assuming that you’re broken-or that, if someone needs the warning, they’re somehow in need of therapy or “unable to deal.”  I find THAT statement hurtful because sometimes we all have bad days, sometimes therapies inaccessible, etc.  It’s kind of a rather be safe than sorry thing to me.

Comment #90: Tokidoki  on  06/15  at  10:20 PM

I’m not sure how that’s passive-aggressive; that to me implies some sort of hidden message, and I think mine was pretty clear.  Trigger warnings are only patronizing if you think it’s pathetic to be triggered. 

And thank you, Ms. Kate, for bringing up the ‘anything can be a trigger!’ meme again.  Yeah, you’re right.  But you know what absolutely is a trigger and should be denoted as one?  Graphic depictions or discussions of violence. 

I’m so very sorry for asking for something soooo outrageous—I should just go back into the shame cave where people like me are supposed to live with our disorders and traumas and whatnots.

Yes, that was passive-aggressive AND patronizing.  And with that, I’m done here.

Comment #91: EGhead  on  06/15  at  10:21 PM

One more thing. Maybe I’m totally wrong on this, as again, a guy who’s never had sexual abuse (but abuse of other types, yes), but it’s my impression that a lot of this, sexual violence against women as well as anti-feminism is about trying to keep women locked up in a tiny little corner.

I could easily see, from this point of view, the idea that women should put themselves in that corner as being in itself hurtful.

Comment #92: Karmakin  on  06/15  at  10:23 PM

Even for Chris Muir, that cartoon made no sense. David Letterman made an offensive joke about a conservative politician’s daughter, so that makes it OK to abuse liberal women?

Comment #93: Bitter Scribe  on  06/15  at  10:26 PM

sexual violence against women as well as anti-feminism is about trying to keep women locked up in a tiny little corner.

Why do you think that Muir had one of his male leads righteously beat up his gf’s friend’s abusive boyfriend?  AND a German, at that.  Take THAT too late to be in WorldWar2!!!!

Comment #94: seeker6079  on  06/15  at  10:30 PM

@ Karmakin:  That’s another tricky thing to navigate.  Does treating rape as The Worst Thing In The World help… or hurt?  No blanket policy is going to guide us through that one either.

Comment #95: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  10:30 PM

EGhead, it isn’t your requests that offend me, it is your demand that Amanda, as a woman, is responsible for your feelings.  She’s not.

Comment #96: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  10:32 PM

Ahhh, you had to scroll back Bitter Scribe.  It is merely the most recent in a noble “protect the ladies” masturbatory strip.

Comment #97: seeker6079  on  06/15  at  10:33 PM

I’m not sure how that’s passive-aggressive; that to me implies some sort of hidden message, and I think mine was pretty clear.  Trigger warnings are only patronizing if you think it’s pathetic to be triggered.

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but put so much better.  Thank you EG.  It’s almost like saying the women who do need to turn away at a trigger warning are weak or pathetic.  How is it an insult to be addressed along with women who haven’t recovered or who do still get triggered?

And on “anything can be a trigger.”  Yes, it’s true, anything can be a trigger.  But it’s basic classical conditioning as to why anything can be one.  The base event that causes that event to become a trigger with PTSD is always something violent-be it war, rape, or any other form of violence.  We don’t all have the same triggers, no, and we’re all responsible for avoiding or dealing with our own as need be, but violence is what made these “anything” triggers triggering in the first place, so it makes sense that’s the only one where a warning will be provided.

Comment #98: Tokidoki  on  06/15  at  10:34 PM

Ahhh, you had to scroll back Bitter Scribe.  It is merely the most recent in a noble “protect the ladies” masturbatory strip.

I think I will live the rest of my life quite happily without scrolling back, but thanks for the tip.

Comment #99: Bitter Scribe  on  06/15  at  10:38 PM

This whole trigger warning argument is a perfect example of the kind of dictatorial dogma I’m talking about being prevalent at some other blogs.  Amanda is saying that she does not condemn or even take issue with blogs that use trigger warnings.  She provides a blog that does not use them. 

There’s a choice.  Everyone is free to choose which they’re most comfortable with.  Is that good enough?  Oh no.  You Have To Agree With Me. 

It’s just so funsucking.  And whoever posted about feeling like you are walking on eggshells, that’s it exactly.  And who the fuck wants to post somewhere feeling like you are on eggshells?  One wrong word and you’re exposed as a phony feminist, or a moron.  Give me a break.

Comment #100: Lady Vader  on  06/15  at  10:39 PM

Here’s a link to Dave Rovic’s “I’m a better anarchist than you”

http://www.free-lyrics.org/David-Rovics/71099-Im-A-Better-Anarchist-Than-You.html

Tell me you don’t know people like that!  It’s hysterical.

Comment #101: Lady Vader  on  06/15  at  10:40 PM

Tokidoki, I think you and EGhead are missing something here.  What you are missing is the degree to which your demands for people to not offend your particular sensitivities, as if they could divine them in advance anyway, are often used to control and derail discussions through manipulation of people who are at least attempting to be sensitive.

Hence the accusations of passive aggression: “you won’t do what I want because you just don’t care about me” implies that Amanda has some underlying duty to care.  That “duty to care” is a classic method of controlling women through guilt and shame.

Comment #102: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  10:41 PM

FlipYrWhig:

It’s not about what happens to the evildoer or the victim as much as it is about context and style and attitude. But usually it’s pretty damn clear to someone who’s attuned to the idea of points being gotten across by style rather than plot. Some people either aren’t clear on that, or are capable of arguing in incredibly bad faith (“Well of course she was sweating, it was hot in the villain’s jungle lair, and of course he was threatening her with that big knife, he had to conserve bullets blah blah blah”).

As I was writing that previous comment, a couple examples of murder-of-spare-woman-to-advance-arc came to mind that were yucky because they did the patriarchal thing of making a woman’s life about the protagonist who emotes over her, but not (imo) pornographically yucky: Tara in Buffy and Rachel Dawes in Dark Knight. The decision to once again make it a woman who got killed was, uh, problematic, but the depictions were not particularly gendered.

Comment #103: paul  on  06/15  at  10:41 PM

What you are missing is the degree to which your demands for people to not offend your particular sensitivities, as if they could divine them in advance anyway, are often used to control and derail discussions through manipulation of people who are at least attempting to be sensitive.

Ding ding ding ding.  Emphasis added because that’s the kicker, isn’t it?  It is pissing on people who believe in the same things that you do and want a better society but done for a bit of nobler-than-thou ascendancy.

George Orwell had a good phrase for people like that: Orthodoxy sniffers.

Comment #104: seeker6079  on  06/15  at  10:44 PM

usually it’s pretty damn clear to someone who’s attuned to the idea of points being gotten across by style rather than plot.

Yeah, that’s where I sometimes founder—I really have a jones for plot, and sometimes have trouble reading the iconography of discrete moments against/across that plot.

Comment #105: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  10:46 PM

But why on earth should someone have to change their *own* blog rules,

I read Rachel II’s comment three times, and I don’t see where she said that. She said she wasn’t willing to censor her own speech, and also that she mostly only posts here.

Also, someone mentioned that in movies and TV, rape is thrown in to demonstrate what a bad person the villain is. I agree, they do. But you know what that reminds me of? George W.‘s constant trotting out of Saddam’s “rape rooms” to get the public behind the war. Bush doesn’t give a flying fuck about rape victims, he was just using it to bully women and prey upon our fears. I’m pretty sure there’s a correlation there, but I’ve had two glasses of wine too many to make it.

Comment #106: flea  on  06/15  at  10:48 PM

It is pissing on people who believe in the same things that you do

It’s _expressly_ that, because you’re supposed to hold your presumed friends to a higher standard than your presumed foes.  Personally, I’m too enmeshed in the idea of giving people the benefit of the doubt to implement that policy.

Comment #107: FlipYrWhig  on  06/15  at  10:48 PM

Flip,

I think a lot of the complaints around the use of rape in fiction (or fictional TV shows) is not so much about triggering as ... well, aesthetics, and the repetition of sexist, racist, or problematic memes. So that’s where I think a lot of writers, at least, are going to come into the conversation. It’s true that detailed descriptions of rape may be triggering, but yes, I don’t think that’s generally the basis writers use for using or avoiding them, or guiding others toward doing so.

I agree with you that blanket rules aren’t going to be useful. There will always be exceptions. The writing and reading conversations I’ve been in have been about craeting guidelines, and creating dialogues around specific examples that are generally agreed to be problematic. For instance, I didn’t watch Battlestar Gallactica, but apparently some people believe they used rape in an unexamined-plot-tool way, and there was a lot of discussion abotu what the social meanings of that are.

Honestly, I hadn’t even though of putting the aesthetic and triggering discussions together—except that I definitely hear from former victims who are writers, readers, and viewers, that even once they’re at the point when maybe they want to read about a character who is dealing with her own rape, they definitely definitely feel awful when the rape is crappily portrayed or all about stereotypes.

I’m not sure I’m disagreeing with anything you’ve said or anything, just clarifying/expanding.

Comment #108: Mandolin  on  06/15  at  10:59 PM

Ah flea, I’ll help you finish off that bottle of wine and we can kvetch about it some more.

Comment #109: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/15  at  11:00 PM

Thanks very much for this post—I was feeling bad about how much the recent turn of events at Shakesville had rubbed me the wrong way and I’m glad to see similar feelings expressed here.  I like the site’s posts, but when a commenter was reprimanded (by another commenter, not by Liss) for saying “we need to hold [Obama’s] feet to the fire on the campaign promises he’s made,” I decided the comments section wasn’t the place for me.

Comment #110: sherunslunatic  on  06/15  at  11:00 PM

But you know what absolutely is a trigger and should be denoted as one?  Graphic depictions or discussions of violence.

You know what? I’m familiar enough with Amanda’s writings and her feminist and liberal bona fides that I trust her judgment when it comes to what she writes about and that she’s not out to traumatize women or other abused groups. If you are sensitive enough that your internet experience requires an assurance of a “safe space” where you can read and interact without worrying about feeling traumatized, then maybe pandagon isn’t for you.

Comment #111: Tyro  on  06/15  at  11:01 PM

No, I can’t just flounce from this.  It is seriously sticking in my craw.

I don’t demand anyone do anything on their own blog.  I’m saying that by refusing to do certain things, you alienate people, and for no real reason.  The reason’ I don’t have to care’ is not good enough.  It’s the same one racists and misogynists and all of those other lovely people you espouse to hate use.  You are creating an ableist hierarchy, and yes of course you can do that and I can’t stop you.  But I can damn well point it out.

Comment #112: EGhead  on  06/15  at  11:04 PM

Eghead, you are completely ignoring the fact that you are being told, by me for one, that other blog’s atmosphere’s are alienating to some people too for the exact opposite reasons.  You are demanding that all blogs become the place you feel good or safe in.  But I don’t like that atmosphere and I have left other blogs because I won’t post in that atmosphere.

So, I have a place that is comfortable for me, and you have a place that is comfortable for you.

The only one of the two of us who that isn’t good enough for?  You.

Comment #113: Lady Vader  on  06/15  at  11:08 PM

EGhead:

Isn’t it a little dismissive to evaluate the reasoning and emotional associations of so many people here and boil it down to “no real reason”?

Comment #114: paul  on  06/15  at  11:10 PM

“maybe we should actually put a little weight in what she has to say”

Great, now you’re discriminating against fat people.

Comment #115: liminalist  on  06/15  at  11:12 PM

I get that this blog isn’t for me, and I’m not welcome here.  And, no, I don’t think I was being dismissive.  In thinking about all the reasons people gave, that’s what it came down to.  And now I will go for real, because I get that I’m intruding on your party.

Comment #116: EGhead  on  06/15  at  11:15 PM

Flip:Just to make it clear, I actually do think that rape is pretty much the worst thing ever, along side hate crimes, torture and terrorism.

I’m actually one who thinks that the emotional effects of such crimes are actually beyond horriffic. (As to my experience, I put it alongside torture, even though it was self inflicted)

Comment #117: Karmakin  on  06/15  at  11:16 PM

Tokidoki, I think you and EGhead are missing something here.  What you are missing is the degree to which your demands for people to not offend your particular sensitivities, as if they could divine them in advance anyway, are often used to control and derail discussions through manipulation of people who are at least attempting to be sensitive.

Hence the accusations of passive aggression: “you won’t do what I want because you just don’t care about me” implies that Amanda has some underlying duty to care.  That “duty to care” is a classic method of controlling women through guilt and shame.

Whoa, I never said that she doesn’t care about me.  I don’t think I ever demanded that she change her blog or anything of the sort either, so I have no idea where that I idea came from.  It’s her space, and if I don’t like it or feel it marginalizes me, I can just leave.  No one has to agree with me that trigger warnings are good and helpful, but it would be nice if it was acknowledged people who support aren’t too sensitive or weak.

But as I general rule, I think people who’re privileged-whether that’s in gender, race, mental health, whatever-should try and listen to what the marginalized people feel, especially if they’re first reaction is that whoever got offended is “too sensitive,” which is why I commented in the first place.  I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to avoid words like “lame/bitch/whore” or why it’s considered controlling to point out it hurts some people’s feelings and that ignoring them is a privileged response?  It’s not like I think people should know them in advance either-no one is perfect. 

And as to the “duty to care” method of controlling women, I could say the same about saying that we’re just too sensitive or being overly PC.  The intellectual dishonesty of these arguments is another reason I’m still commenting (ie the “anything could be a trigger!!!1! argument).  I do understand where walking on eggshells is an awful feeling, but I think dismissing people who find the word “lame” or implying people who are triggered are pathetic is an unproductive response, from a progressive standpoint.

Comment #118: Tokidoki  on  06/15  at  11:30 PM

I think I will go into the square and demand that the local bar room be made child safe.

Then again, making it a safe space for my children would make it a non safe space for many others who require space to be adults without worrying about children.

Comment #119: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  11:34 PM

“I could easily see, from this point of view, the idea that women should put themselves in that corner as being in itself hurtful.”

It kind of plays out in the dialog about abortion, too.  You get women who don’t feel anything but relief after their abortion, who didn’t agonize about it, for whom it was not this huge, wrenching decision feeling guilty about…not feeling guilty.  Because, you know, you’re supposed to feel guilty.  There’s something wrong with you if you don’t.  Or, somewhat self-fulfillingly, maybe it’s going to be like I Know What You Did Last Summer, only with a fetus in a tiny fetus raincoat, where you’ll go through your life for years and then *bam* all the sudden you’ll be thrown into a bottomless chasm of guilt.  Either you feel guilty or they’ll do their damnedest to make you feel guilty.

Given how much the culture at large has invested into the idea that it was only rape if you’re appropriately devastated afterwards, and you get to be either a complete wreck who spends years trying to heal or a lying slut who probably had it coming anyway, I can easily see why someone would bridle at the idea that they need to perpetuate the “complete wreck” idea at their own expense.

Comment #120: preying mantis  on  06/15  at  11:34 PM

I’m physically disabled, and I’m not at all offended by using the word lame as a pejorative, because although I walk with a gimpy limp and my grandmother always told me I was crippled, that’s not the word I would use to describe myself. In fact, if you asked all the people who knew me to describe me, the word “lame” would never come up. I think taking offense at the term lame is basically admitting that you think of yourself as lame, that the word lame defines you.

But maybe that’s just me.

Comment #121: maurinsky  on  06/15  at  11:37 PM

To steal from Fred Clark’s recent post, it is certainly true that your right to extend your arm ends where my nose begins.  However, it emphatically does not follow that because I have a nose, no one must ever, under any circumstances, extend their arm.

EG, I have a couple of colleagues who have made it quite clear that they have no desire to hear any of my stories of human dissection.  So I make sure not to talk about that aspect of my work around them.  That said, I have other colleagues in the same block of offices with whom I need to discuss that sort of thing.  So while I’m perfectly happy to refrain from bringing up the subject in front of my more squeamish friends, it’s unreasonable to ask that I keep someone posted outside my office to warn passers-by when my other colleagues and I are talking shop.  Same goes for the internet.

Comment #122: wjts  on  06/15  at  11:47 PM

EGhead:

I don’t demand anyone do anything on their own blog.  I’m saying that by refusing to do certain things, you alienate people, and for no real reason.  The reason’ I don’t have to care’ is not good enough.  It’s the same one racists and misogynists and all of those other lovely people you espouse to hate use.  You are creating an ableist hierarchy, and yes of course you can do that and I can’t stop you.  But I can damn well point it out.

YES! Refusing to do certain things does alienate people. There is a reason, and your straw man is this continued assertion that “I don’t have to care” is that reason. That isn’t Amanda’s argument, and while others have pointed out that they aren’t responsible for your feelings, I don’t think anyone else has made the argument either.

I can’t speak for others, but you are definitely welcome here. It just may be upsetting for you, and I’m sorry for that, but there is something special we want to keep going.

Will you address any of the arguments made for how censorship and self-censorship would impact that?

Comment #123: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  11:56 PM

I think Ms. Kate’s comments really answer EGhead best.

It isn’t a lack of awareness, sympathy, or concern for anyone. Pandagon is just a different kind of space with a different kind of content. And that’s okay, especially since participants are self-selecting.

Comment #124: humanadverb  on  06/15  at  11:58 PM

You have every right to let me know that it’s not worth your time to structure your blog in a way that is accessible to people with mental illnesses, or those who are just recovering from sexual assault.

Can you point to any real people who have had problems with this blog because they fell into one of your 2 catagories?

Comment #125: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/15  at  11:59 PM

think taking offense at the term lame is basically admitting that you think of yourself as lame, that the word lame defines you.

Eh, I’d be careful of making the argument that things are only offensive because some idiot got offended by them and clearly needs to get some self-esteem.  In my view, some perjoratives are clearly offensive and wrong for me to use regardless of whether a particular target is individually offended by it.  Personally, I try to avoid using words that I’ve been told are offensive towards marginalized groups because I don’t care for offending people, even if it does at first blush seem silly like “lame” and “crazy”. 

I honestly think that blog communities like this one and the ones at, for instance, IBTP or Alas, are all valuable in their own ways.  I enjoy that here we have such a lively, irreverent community from which I can learn a lot about how to shut down trolls and how to express the discontent I’ve always felt with wit and humor.  But the PoV here is pretty limited to smartass, educated liberal hipster fun, and a lot of issues aren’t addressed or are dismissed because they limit the fun.  So that’s why I also enjoy the long, thoughtful, “nitpicky” posts on Alas, because I feel that those really help me expand my horizons.  And then finally there is IBTP, where we are free to be angry, man hating, hairy legged feminists and fuck you if you say otherwise, here is your ban, jerkwad!

I don’t agree with everything here, or at any of my other favorite blogs.  But nothing is perfect, and that’s why there are lots of blogs, so that we can revel in what we’re in the mood for at the moment.

Comment #126: Denise  on  06/16  at  12:02 AM

Thank you flea!  I was actually re-reading my own comment to see where I implied I participated in the televangelist financial demand that is Shakesville and couldn’t find it.

“I think people who’re privileged-whether that’s in gender, race, mental health, whatever-should try and listen to what the marginalized people feel, especially if they’re first reaction is that whoever got offended is “too sensitive,” which is why I commented in the first place.  I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to avoid words like “lame/bitch/whore” or why it’s considered controlling to point out it hurts some people’s feelings and that ignoring them is a privileged response?”

I’m going [trigger warning!] balls to the walls here because this version of feminism really pisses me off.  I *have* listened to people who get offended by that.  I *have* considered my privilege.  When I respect someone’s feminist opinion, and when I find myself in a disagreement, I take a good long look to see if I’m wrong.  This is one of those times where I do. not. care.  Someone being way, way too sensitive about *words* on the *internet* is not my problem.  If you can’t handle reading “lame” or “bitch” or “cunt”, I really don’t care.  I have considered it, repeatedly.  And my honest opinion is to get over it.  There are so, so few words that deserve grade A avoidance treatment.  If I can manage to avoid an anxiety attack when a right-winger calls me a hairy-legged bitch, in real life, no less!  No safety of the internet to hide behind!  Then you can deal when I come on the internet and call that person lame.

Comment #127: Rachel,II  on  06/16  at  12:03 AM

Also, for fuck’s sake.  Language changes. It’s really important to note that it wasn’t until someone on the internet got their panties in a twist that I knew that “lame” was apparently used as a pejorative.  If it was, then it must have been in same timeframe that “vagina” meant “sheath for a sword”.  And if *that’s* the case, then I put both groups in the same category and summarily ignore them both, unless I’m holding them up for ridicule.

Comment #128: Rachel,II  on  06/16  at  12:06 AM

But Rachel, II, what is your “rule of thumb” for those words ... wink

Comment #129: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  12:07 AM

What Caton said, pretty much exactly.
One reason I stopped reading feministing was the dog piling, combined with a holier-than-thou, I’m-offended-and-that-trumps-all attitude.

This thread seems like the perfect opportunity to bring up something that’s been bothering me for a while, though. There is a larger issue of ‘dogpiling’ on a lot of liberal blogs that goes beyond PC-policing, which is to viciously attack anyone who dissents from the main view. This tends to drive away or silence the reasonable dissenting people (the non-trolls), and heighten the ‘echo-chamber’ effect on blogs. Obviously, this doesn’t apply to anyone who persists in refusing to engage in a reasonable discussion (mockery and insults are really the only response then), but every time a conservative argument is made, it is inevitably met with *much* more obnoxious name-calling by at least one commenter, often by all. This isn’t limited to here; it’s true of pretty much all the liberal blogs I read.

Presumably, there are reasonable people who are conservatives/hold some conservative views, occasionally because that’s all they’ve ever heard. If we (‘we’ as a collective liberal presence) refuse to engage in any sort of discourse with them, we both lose. This isn’t a request for a change in blog policy or contents, just a request that before you dismiss an argument with which you disagree as ‘so-and-so is clearly a homophobic racist wingnut’, to consider if maybe they are merely an ill-informed or devil’s advocate playing person who is open to a reasoned explanation of why their comment is racist/homophobic/idiotic. Or come up with more creative insults - good mockery is at least entertaining.

For the many people who posted who are uncomfortable posting at some blogs for fear of being attacked, please extend the same consideration to those who don’t adhere to liberal arguments, too - I think it would be pretty cool if the liberal blogosphere could add political tolerance (though probably not acceptance) to the list of things it encourages.

Comment #130: jalmondale  on  06/16  at  12:11 AM

You have every right to let me know that it’s not worth your time to structure your blog in a way that is accessible to people with mental illnesses, or those who are just recovering from sexual assault.

Can you point to any real people who have had problems with this blog because they fell into one of your 2 catagories?

as someone who fits both categories with a cherry on top, i happily state that pandagon is quite accessible to me. in fact, it is the only political and/or feminist blog that i check daily and read through comments and bother participating at. certainly there are times i feel out of place in a thread, my education level is lower than most pandagonians and sometimes i feel like a jackass trying to say what i mean. but that isn’t amandas problem to deal with, its mine.

i really enjoy amanda’s take on trigger warnings as part of putting rape survivors into the “broken delicate flower” box. i never got why they irritated me so much until now.

Comment #131: jessilikewhoa  on  06/16  at  12:12 AM

I’m saying that by refusing to do certain things, you alienate people, and for no real reason.

No, she’s given her reasons. You disagree, but aren’t simply willing to agree to disagree.  You want something from Amanda, either an admission of error or some other validation of yourself, and you’re not going to get it. 
 

It’s a focus problem. It’s basically the equivalent of always killing the girlfriend off so that the male main character’s arc can be developed.

I loved the X-files when it came out.  My friend and I had to be somewhere, so we taped the pilot, and the tape ended before the last 10 mins, when things were just getting super-scary, so that probably had something to do with it.

I didn’t make it to the end of the series, though.  It started out with Scully as the lead and Mulder as the oddball who was actually right.  She devolved into his secretary, and I finally had one too many “Scully’s about to be murdered: Fox rushes to save her at the last minute” episodes—I actually said to my friend: if Scully’s victimized again, I’m done.  And I was.

It’s why I don’t watch procedurals.  Most of the time they are showing violence, rape, and murder of women.  I don’t find that entertaining anymore, and since the majority of our American entertainment revolves around violence against women and the vengence of the men whose female property was violated and so little revolves on real, actual human characters who are female, I don’t watch as much as when I was younger.

As for being PC on this blog…Auguste, I meant to email you and never got around to it.  My younger brother, as I’ve written, has Down Syndrome.  Someone tossed the word “retard” about the other week, and you called them on it.  I appreciated it.

We live in a rape culture.  People say stupid things.  This blog tends to call people on what they actually say instead of posting big rules, and I like that.

Comment #132: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/16  at  12:21 AM

It isn’t PC to say that it is inappropriate to use the word “retarded” to describe a person or attitude that is simply idiotic.

It goes way overboard to attack someone who uses the term “fire retardant” or otherwise uses the word “retard” to describe a thing that holds back a process (e.g. we used Kilz primer to retard mold).

Comment #133: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  12:28 AM

Hey, thanks for the link, Amanda. I don’t usually pay attention to trackbacks so only just seeing this.

Someone asked why I have those songs on my iPod if they disturb me. Well, two reasons: 1) They were part of a large file of music I uploaded indiscriminately and it’s easier to skip them than delete since I neglected to reinstall my iTunes on my new laptop (I can be incredibly lazy about such stuff), and 2) I like those songs and would like to be able to listen to them without triggering. Slowly testing myself periodically is the way to do it, I’ve discovered.

As for lame, yes, I agree any blog can create and enforce its own rules. I am also free to call those rules silly. “Dick” being verboten, as someone mentioned upthread, is also pretty silly, although I have slightly more sympathy with getting rid of that than lame. But whatever. Neither word is that important to me, I just object to bannage on principle.

Comment #134: Apostate  on  06/16  at  12:38 AM

And yes, the SV thread totally went personal. I didn’t want to stop people because it’s clear they needed some space to vent. And I admit I enjoyed it, having my own petty reasons. Still true that lots of valid criticisms were made, most from long-time readers and some contributors of SV.

Comment #135: Apostate  on  06/16  at  12:39 AM

testing myself periodically

Sexist.

(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

Comment #136: Auguste  on  06/16  at  12:39 AM

Also, Caren, it’s true that I do tend to be a little more language-police-y than some others around here, especially for the words “retard” and “lame”, probably for the same reason that an ex-smoker carries around a haughty attitude about smokers.

“Lame”, especially, is really really really hard for me to cut out of my offline vocabulary.

Comment #137: Auguste  on  06/16  at  12:41 AM

Great post, by the way.

I’ll now stop. smile

Comment #138: Apostate  on  06/16  at  12:45 AM

Oooh, is this the part in the Feminist Blog Commenting Process where we list our credentials? (You know, when there’s a post that even has a whiff of weight about it, and everyone says, “Well, I’m a size six and I know in Sweet Valley High it was a perfect size six, but now the newly released versions say size four, and if you ever saw me as a size four, you’d tell me I have CANCER! I totally weigh 117 pounds and I have a BMI of 19.2. Please validate me!” et cetra.)

Because if it is, may I add that I’m dyslexic, hard of hearing, infertile, rocking a mild case of cerebral palsy, a sexual assault survivor, that I flirted with eating disorders as a teenager and am straight up mentally ill? (Oh, and married. We cannot forget that I’m in a heteronomative, state-sanctioned relationship complete with tax benefits and jewelry!)

(Oooh! Validate meeeeee!)

All that I’ve listed above are my issues to deal with. I run across so many “triggers” in the course of my day; why should I expect the left-leaning, woman-centric blogs that I read (that I chose to read, and I chose my choice, damn it) to anticipate my needs as a dyslexic, hard of hearing, infertile, brain-damaged sexual assault survivor? I can either be offended or move on. I gave up on being offended a long time ago. Shit happens. The writers and commenters at Pandagon can’t help what happened in my past, but they can challenge my mind about political structures and struggles facing the left today. They can also teach me how to shout down a troll in ten comments, flat.

And frankly, as someone who’s not at the tippy top of the privileged pyramid (but not too far down, either), I am more offended at the notion that I require special acknowledgment of my issues; that I should be praised for being So Strong for having no choice in being born into this body. It’s crap-filled condensation, and frankly, I don’t fucking need it. It’s taking time away from bringing down the patriarchy, you know?

Comment #139: Ticky  on  06/16  at  12:54 AM

The problem I have always had with the excessive use of “trigger warnings” and accusations of triggering is that I think it demeans feminism.  I see this a lot on Shakesville and to a lesser extent on Feministe.

The problem is, they are directly counter to what I see as the basic message of feminism, which is that women and men are equal.  How am I supposed to believe that when seemingly everybody there is a Very Special Snowflake who bruises like a peach and Must Be Protected.  If my entire knowledge of feminism was Shakesville I would never be able to take feminism seriously.  Constant use of trigger warnings and accusations of triggering are damaging to feminism as a whole.

Comment #140: Bruce from Missouri  on  06/16  at  01:01 AM

Ticky, you are so brave. Thank you for sharing that.

I’m 100% on EGhead’s side that Amanda’s choices are alienating and perhaps unfair. It sucks that (if?) s/he or anyone else has troubles that make this place upsetting.

But you don’t have a right to equal access to snarky blog posts and comments.

You have an equal access right to gainful employment, protection under the law, and all sorts of other stuff which our fucked up culture denies you—and, the varying degrees, most everyone. We’re working on it.

And it sucks that we’re having trouble dialogging around shit that’s as serious as rape culture.

Comment #141: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  01:02 AM

oh Ticky, you had me at “Sweet Valley High.”

Comment #142: jessilikewhoa  on  06/16  at  01:03 AM

I find Shakespeare’s Sister to be a bad focus for a discussion on trigger warnings and pc because I think some of the people there tend to act in bad faith around the use of language so they can be bullies.

Ugh, seriously, that’s why I find this whole discussion of PC so absurd, in relation to Shakesville. They, meaning the bloggers and the commenters, have no problem stepping on emotional toes when it suits them, as I believe several of the commenters on that train-wreck of a commenting policy post point out (I can’t be bothered to read all gazillion comments). Until recently, I’d stopped reading Shakesville altogether, for that very reason. I’d been called a troll, and been the object of all manner of insults (many of which included the word “fuck”) because I dared to question whether it might be illiberal to laugh at any human being, even if we disagree with them, for being an addict. I mean, addicts are people too, right? And addiction is a mental illness not unlike (and often comorbid with) PTSD, and “triggers” are a part of addiction as well, eh? But apparently if someone you don’t like is an addict (in that case, Rush Limbaugh), it’s perfectly OK to laugh at them because of it. Would it be OK for liberals, and feminists in particular, to mock a conservative woman for PTSD symptoms? Even if she had previously been insensitive to sexual assault victims or whatever caused her PTSD? I can’t imagine it would be.

Anyway, I’ve since talked to a lot of people who participate in the liberal/feminist blogosphere who’ve completely removed Shakesville from their blog reading list after similar encounters over there. I think a lot of us would have a lot more respect for Shakesville’s call for a “safe place,” however incoherent that guidelines post was, if they weren’t raging hypocrites.

Comment #143: Chris MM  on  06/16  at  01:15 AM

I went over to Shakesville to find out more about these supposedly stifling safe space rules. From their “Comment Policy”:

Comments are open to anyone as long as they don’t traffic in racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise overtly objectionable commentary. Differences of opinion are welcome; no one has ever been nor will ever be banned on a difference of opinion alone. Threats, trolling, pointless belligerence, and hate speech will get you banned. Or get your comments redacted and/or replaced with an incredibly sophomoric paraphrase, like an announcement that you’re a huge douche. If some of that sounds rather arbitrary, well, it is. Ultimately, whether you can comment at Shakesville is at my discretion—and plaintive, angry, or accusatory wailing about free speech will fall on deaf ears. This isn’t a public square. This is a safe space.

Emphasis mine.

I very, very much want to help the people around me feel well and be well. I don’t know how to live up to a standard like that. I will try to when I’m in your space, and I will expect you to excuse yourself from mine if that’s a problem.

Again: exactly language from Shakesville.

Comment #144: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  01:27 AM

And, I don’t think that makes me an insensitive person, or a bad person, or exposes me to criticism.

If I am unfair, inflammatory, hurtful in a place that we share—like the workplace or on the street—please bring it to my attention, try to give me the benefit of the doubt, and I’ll attempt to change my behavior to be more accommodating.

Pandagon isn’t that space, though.

Comment #145: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  01:30 AM

But apparently if someone you don’t like is an addict (in that case, Rush Limbaugh), it’s perfectly OK to laugh at them because of it.

It’s kind of like the Letterman/Palin thing.  Rush openly mocked addicts as losers, and then he turned out to be one.  The hypocrisy of what he said vs. what he did and how he expected to be treated as opposed to how he advocated treating anyone else deserves mocking.  Being an addict?  In and of itself?  Not so much, but I have a hard time ever feeling much sympathy for him.  His utter lack of empathy and sympathy does that to me.

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t many on the left who do mock him for being a fat drug addict.  They do.  It’s a violation of our principals to do it, and people should be called on it.

As for Letterman, he often disappoints, as does Olbermann.  He should be called on it.  It was sexist, and it was humor based on slut-shaming.

However, it wasn’t a rape joke, not even a statutory rape joke.  No one raped Bristol; she just didn’t use any birth control when she decided to give up using abstinence.  That was the base of the joke, and it’s not very funny.  But if the Palins hadn’t used her teen pregnancy as a cudgel and if Bristol wasn’t currently a public figure pushing abstinence on others, they wouldn’t have thought of it at all.

Palin turning it around and calling Lettermen a pervert who should be kept away from Willow?  Totally deserves to be called out as well.

Comment #146: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/16  at  01:33 AM

Can I just say that “PC policing” can serve a meaningful purpose? I’m glad for things I’ve learned only because someone stood up and said something was offensive and explained why. I try to be a sensitive, enlightened person, but the fact is that I can’t consider everyone’s view point. So hearing people who are offended by something explaining why is extremely informative. It might not be something I’d have ever done, but it might have been something I’d have never thought about. The sexist nature of some Ann Coulter criticism is one that sticks with me. I don’t think I ever participated, but I never bothered to think about how it could be seen as offensive. I’m glad I saw people complaining about that because it made me think. It made me consider something I wouldn’t have on my own. It challenged me, and I’m grateful for that.

I think this to-do over Shakesville is kind of absurd. The complaints just seem so overdrawn. I don’t get the offense found in the original posts at all. Its their blog. They get to do with it what they will. Complaining about the standards someone sets for their own personal space is effectively just a way of saying you don’t think a person has a right to their views and the exercise of those views. That bothers me, because its something I’ve seen used for a lot of negative ends. Frankly, often by people I couldn’t dismiss as trolls in the classic sense, which is very troubling. Its an effort at disenfranchisement and its not reasonable. Its fair to disagree, but many seem to steer the discussion into an arena of invalidating the opinion they disagree with. I think the greater internet community benefits from having a variety of different communities serving different audiences and different purposes. I also don’t really get the caricature of Liss as cult-leader/censor. I’ve called her out before when I felt SHE was using language that wasn’t respectful. She didn’t agree with me and said so quite forcefully. I respected that, though I held firm on my concerns. The image of her as a fragile flower, though, just doesn’t seem supported to me.

Comment #147: BStu  on  06/16  at  01:43 AM

First time I heard someone scolded for using the word “lame”, I thought it was a joke too. I often read, but rarely post, on feministe and shakesville. But if I was writing a post I’d avoid the word “lame” even though I may use in conversation. I think being offended by it is bizarrely oversensitive, since lame equaling disabled is kind of an archaic meaning. But shit, I really don’t want to bum someone out or start a language debate just to defend my right to use a slang term. (How’s that for wishy-washy?)

On some blog (maybe shakesville?) someone objected to “blind”, as in “blind to the truth”. Still not sure if that was a joke or not.

To dig myself a deeper hole, one of the problems I have with feministing is that the people posting seem so damn young. All too often the people commenting seem so terribly naive and so willing to believe anything that may make them sound more feminist than thou. I’m convinced I could create a mock comment defending pedophilia by framing it as an exploration of childhood sexuality and how we shouldn’t criticize other cultures that might celebrate adult/child sexual relationships and that children have rights, and thus the right to choose, and all choice is good, and that stifling the expression of sexuality in children denies children agency, and only sex-negative neo-Victorians would deny tweens the choice to make a little pocket money tricking, and I’d have a bunch of girls and women agreeing with me inside of five minutes. So I rarely look at that blog - I think it’s a great forum for young women who are just discovering feminism and exploring their ideas, but mostly the comments just make me cringe.

As to trigger warnings on blogs: I mostly see them used in situations where the post is actually about something violent that happened in the real world. Sure, sometimes it’s just something like a urinal shaped like a woman’s mouth - offensive, sure, but potentially triggering to very few people. Though I must agree with someone above who mentioned that if a woman wants to avoid conversations about real or fictional sexual violence, a feminist site is probably a bad place to go. They’re chock full of triggers.

Comment #148: dogcat  on  06/16  at  01:48 AM

BStu—look at the first word in the title of the post heading this thread: “Diversity.”

You’re right, Shakesville has its own space and its own way of doing things. The Pandagonians are doing their own thing over here at Pandagon. That’s a good thing.

The criticism that we’re doing it wrong over here is what I think touched off the length of this comment thread. Does your defense of Shakesville apply equally to Pandagon? If so, I think we agree.

Comment #149: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  01:49 AM

It strikes me the conversation is now about a different sort of trigger than what I was discussing. I wasn’t talking about trigger warnings on graphic posts (I agree with Amanda’s position on that, except I’d put a warning on a graphic PHOTO, but not text).

I was talking about how the concept of being triggered is being used at Shakesville (mostly in comments, including by McEwan), and how it strikes me as wrong, indicating many people there perhaps don’t understand what triggers are and are using “trigger” as a substitute for “I am offended,” thus diluting the term

To use a quick example, if you were raised in a cult, the mere use by someone of the word ‘cult’ is not going to likely trigger you, but a Shakesville commenter (or two) claimed to be triggered in this way. Thus shutting down discussion about cultish behavior.

I have to agree though, that even when it comes to trigger warnings, which I’m not opposed to in principle, Shakesville overuses them, again making them ineffective. I might want to skip a detailed graphic description of a rape-and-torture victim, but I am not going to faint if I read about some little boy jumping into a woman’s bathtub. But both stories will get the same sort of trigger warning, thus making it necessary for me to skim the story, negating the value of the warning.

Comment #150: Apostate  on  06/16  at  02:07 AM

jaimondale:  There is a larger issue of ‘dogpiling’ on a lot of liberal blogs that goes beyond PC-policing, which is to viciously attack anyone who dissents from the main view. This tends to drive away or silence the reasonable dissenting people

Is it unique to the liberal blogs?  I don’t read conservative ones.  I used to read a lot of baseball blogs, but there would still be heated disputes between, say, people who believed in “intangibles” and “team chemistry” and people who believed only in quantitative analysis, and in certain precincts there would be just as vicious dogpiling on Derek Jeter fans as ever happens to honest conservative newbies on liberal blogs.

I think it’s a natural habit for people to associate with others who share their interests and views.  Online at least, eventually you have a self-selecting group of people who agree on virtually everything.  But it’s a dialogic medium based on radiating patterns of response and further response, which seems to self-organize into something that has the feel of debate.  So picayune differences of opinion, even different shades of _agreement_, even different opinions about rhetorical strategies to express that agreement, get magnified so that they can serve to create dividing lines between orthodoxy and dissent, Right and Wrong.

Comment #151: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  02:09 AM

ha, my defense of Shakesville was my defense of Shakesville. Or more specifically, an expression of how terribly unpersuasive I find the criticisms of Shakesville to have been. I’m sorry if my comment didn’t fit snugly into a back-and-forth you’re having with another commenter, but since you want to drag me into it, though I don’t entirely agree with EGhead, I am extremely glad they are commenting and sharing a different perspective. I was under the impression you were celebrating that Pandagon is the kind of place that allows for such diversity of opinion. I don’t think you or I is obligated to agree with EGhead, but I find your logic of why EGhead is wrong to be increasingly self-excluding.

Comment #152: BStu  on  06/16  at  02:22 AM

Interestingly, the word lame was brought up on this thread.  That was the final incident for me over at Feminsting.

You are not alone, Caton, and I’m kinda happy I’m not either. I found the entire thing ridiculous, and I pretty much walked away from Feministing after that as well. I hadn’t posted on Feministing for a while, because when they changed servers typekey (or whatever it is) wouldn’t let me log in, even after I’d registered a new user name and I just gave up after a while. I would still read the comments but that was the straw for me as well and while I will occasionally peruse the posts I don’t read comments at all anymore.

It was a joke and I am one of those people who came up in the 80s/90s where “lame” meant something entirely different than it’s initial use. Language changes, it evolves, and words come to have different meanings.  As someone said early on, where do we stop? Can I not say something it stupid? Can I not call Bill O’Reilly a moron? What about idiot?

I like Pandagon because I don’t feel pandered to/at and I will admit I prefer the writing style, which is witty and informative as hell. You can be sensitive to people but I don’t think people have to post/comment on eggshells because they have no idea what will set someone off.

Comment #153: UltraMagnus  on  06/16  at  02:27 AM

Mandolin: I think a lot of the complaints around the use of rape in fiction (or fictional TV shows) is not so much about triggering as ... well, aesthetics, and the repetition of sexist, racist, or problematic memes.

That’s one issue I have with “memes,” though, which is that they become units that resonate or provoke associations in ways that seem to be independent of their context.  Like if you want to tell a story about gay-bashing or lynching and how this shit is intolerable and must end, at some point you’re probably going to end up with a few cels of film showing horrible things happening to people who don’t deserve them.  Does repeating the meme make it overflow its banks and swamp the rest of the intended message?  If it does for some non-zero number of people, when should the artist realize that the psychic cost is too high?

Sensitivity is absolutely one of my most deeply held principles.  If I were a creative artist who staged a moment of cruelty to stimulate sensitivity in an audience, would I be living up to that principle, or violating it?  I feel like it’s extremely tricky.

Comment #154: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  02:28 AM

I don’t think people have to post/comment on eggshells because they have no idea what will set someone off.

To be fair, it’s not like it’s completely random at Shakesville, like you’ll say “Bill O’Reilly is a knob” and someone will swoop down to say that you shouldn’t say “knob” because she once had a dream about doorknobs that really scared her, so how dare you.  I don’t think “no violent imagery” is a bad ground rule.  That’s pretty easy to avoid.  But that’s not really the prime directive to commenting over there.

Comment #155: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  02:42 AM

I want to know, though, when did ‘lame’ become an ableist pejorative?  Where has it been used against disabled people in the last hundred years?

...And what stops people (in general) from merely requesting new words be added to the triggering list?  The list is already quite long, and before the internet it moved quite slowly.  Now, though…

Why is lame /now/ ableist, more ten years after of feminism and private groups on the internet?  Why wasn’t it ableist in 1996?  What will be pejorative and then verboten in 2016?

Comment #156: Crissa  on  06/16  at  02:46 AM

I want to know, though, when did ‘lame’ become an ableist pejorative?

I’m curious about that too.  Mandolin brought up earlier that it came up at a science fiction convention.  Are we in the midst of a wave of activism and consciousness-raising around the word?  I never noticed anyone noticing it until, like, a few weeks ago.  But I’ve never been one of the first to know things.

Comment #157: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  02:56 AM

Apostate, I think you’re right. The concept of a “trigger” has become increasingly watered-down as it moved from therapy and books on PTSD or addiction to internet groups to pretty much becoming everyday vernacular (or at least internet vernacular). Triggers are supposed to be pretty specific to individual experiences, and therefore avoiding them is impossible. A friend of mine has trouble with iron stair railings, can’t walk by the Scottish Rite Dormitory because it’s too much like buildings in her old neighborhood in Queens, and has trouble with marble anything. Because I am around her a lot, I’ve learned to avoid talking about certain things, but with hundreds or thousands of survivors around, it’d be pretty much impossible to have a conversation about anything if we were really serious about avoiding triggers as they’re clinically conceived, because anything can be a trigger if its closely associated with the traumatic event(s).

That doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t avoid certain types of violent imagery, and those associated with sexual violence in particular, when possible, and it is usually possible, but that’s a pretty loose definition of PC. It’s not being politically correct, it is, as I think Amanda said, common courtesy. To be honest, even though I’m not a survivor of violence of any sort, I really don’t want to hear jokes about rape or any form of violence. It’s just not funny, polite, or necessary, and it makes me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how uncomfortable it would make people who’ve experienced such things first hand.

But that doesn’t seem to be what the folks at Shakesville were getting at. Instead, they seem, based both on the recent posts and their long-term history, to be setting things up so that it’s very easy not only to bully people (as a previous commenter said), but to stifle dissent by making what counts as acceptable language confusing and vague, and subject to the whims of the blog authors. That is PC bullshit.

Caren-Sun-blocking, etc.: I don’t think it’s wrong to point out that Limbaugh’s comments on addiction are hypocritical and downright dishonest. In fact, I think it’s important to do so. But mocking him for being an addict just seems like a pretty illiberal way to go about it, and even if it’s not illiberal, it’s pretty damn inhumane. Anyone who’s been an addict or been close to one knows that Limbaugh’s behavior is not uncommon—addicts often rebel so strongly against the idea that they are, in fact, addicts, that they’ll behave in less than generous ways towards people who are, and since they’re in denial, they often don’t recognize just how hypocritical they’re being. Not pointing this out is a form of enabling, but mocking them and laughing at them for it is a form of cruelty. And even if you’re not a fan of Rorty, I’m sure you can agree that cruelty is illiberal by definition.

And I’m not claiming this is an excuse for Limbaugh; he’s a miserable human being in general, and there’s a good chance he’d be hypocritical even if he were willing to accept that he’s an addict, because it plays to his audience’s prejudices. I’m just saying that as miserable an excuse as he is for one, he’s a human being, and at some point you have to treat him like one, even if you lose out on some schadenfreude in the process.

Comment #158: Chris MM  on  06/16  at  02:58 AM

Mandolin brought up earlier that it came up at a science fiction convention

I meant _recently_, not _first_.

Comment #159: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  02:59 AM

BStu, I am very unimpressed by “I am glad [whoever] is expressing [whatever] perspective,” as it implies that I am not also welcoming towards perspectives that aren’t my own. I certainly don’t want to shut down EGhead’s contribution—and it is definitely a contribution. I disagree with it, but that doesn’t mean I wish to exclude it.

So, where do you fall in the discourse? Agree, disagree, prefer to sidestep who? I have two questions, specifically:

1) What criticism of Shakesville are you rebutting? I don’t think it was mine or Amanda’s. Can you be specific?

2) I took your argument to be, “what they do at Shakesville is really their own business,” and I thought you would extend the same deference to what happens at Pandagon. If I have misunderstood or mis-applied your argument, can you explain how?

3) I don’t follow how my logic, re: EGhead, is “self-excluding.” Can you explain?

I think EGhead and Amanda ended up talking past one-another, for whatever reason. It seems we are ended up in the same situation. My argument is and isn’t certain things, just as Amanda’s original post did and didn’t say certain things. A criticism of Shakesville was not one of the things I read in her post—again, look at the leading word, “diversity,” as in “celebrate it!”

What do you think I’m trying to say? It certainly isn’t a “shut up!” directed at EGhead.

Comment #160: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  03:03 AM

(1 became 1 and 2, and 2 became three… so three points. Don’t falme me.)

Comment #161: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  03:06 AM

I don’t think “no violent imagery” is a bad ground rule.  That’s pretty easy to avoid.

Not when “holding his feet to the fire” is classified as “violent imagery.” It was classified as such by another commenter, but none of the writers/mods stepped in to say that was going overboard, even though McEwan has used that exact phrase many times.

I certainly understand making graphic descriptions of violence forbidden, but where do you draw the line? There were plenty of commenters in that thread about Eminem and Sasha Baron-Cohen saying that they wished Eminem had punched Baron-Cohen in the balls, but no one seemed to object to that. Why is that on one side of the line, but “feet to the fire” isn’t?

Omitting violent imagery is a good thing in general, but the rules can get a bit arbitrary, and it’s discouraging when you break an arbitrary rule completely by accident, then get called a troll or a “fauxgressive” and get banned from commenting.

Comment #162: Lauren O  on  06/16  at  03:09 AM

Not when “holding his feet to the fire” is classified as “violent imagery.”

True, that was an odd moment.

Re: arbitrary rules… On a thread about the Cubs in which there was much hilarity—initiated by Melissa—about the “porn names” of players Reed Johnson and Rich Harden, I said that “Kosuke Fukudome” was the best porn name on the Cubs… and got scolded for it (and likened to that legislator in Texas who thought Asian people should simplify their names).  Really minor, but it stuck with me, and there’s no sense in arguing, because of the probable piling-on effect.  That’s the most arbitrary thing that happened to me there.

Comment #163: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  03:18 AM

McEwan’s own description of her own comment policy is that it is arbitrary. As has been pointed out, it is her turf and her own rules are entirely defensible on those grounds. Yep.

That doesn’t strike me as an appeal to any objective or coherent standard—in fact, it seems to be an open admission in opposition to both objectivity and coherence. That’s up to her, and that’s fine, just like I’m unaware of her criticizing me for not visiting Shakesville.

Re Lauren O and FlipYrWhig: I am not surprised by apparently inconsistent enforcement of whatever standard might suggest objectivity or coherence.

Also, there is a $20 per-visit charge to my own website. Take it or leave it.

Comment #164: humanadverb  on  06/16  at  03:27 AM

I once ended up having an in-person conversation that included the CEO of my division about coming up with porn names.  I can’t remember what his was, but it was pretty funny (we were using the first pet/first street formulation).  It was very surreal.

(I wish I could be more specific about who it was, but I can’t without giving away where I work.  Imagine going to a dinner party that included Joe Biden and having him tell you what his porn name would be and that’s pretty close.)

Comment #165: Mnemosyne  on  06/16  at  03:40 AM

Amanda, great blog.  You run it however you want.
RE: Melissa, great blog, great blogger.  She can run it anyway that she likes.
Until I started on blogs about 10 12 years ago, i thought of my self as a an extreme feminist.  I have since learned that I had barely scratched the surface.  I have done, shared and experienced many things that I have since concluded were not only wrong but by my own rules just flat evil.

Amanda, Melissa, I usually don’t comment on your blogs, but thank you so much for making reading blogs educational as well as entertaining.  Please, don’t go on until you burn out.

Too many people slide over the line and wind up with a type of PTSD.  Emergency room nurses are a great example.  No one should pull that kind of duty for more than 5 years, they should be bonused out the kazoo and then hired to teach.  I’ve known several that were more than casual alcoholics and never related it to their jobs.  We need them but we need some severe reassessment of the whole medical profession.

I have dealt with a huge number of VA psychiatrists that are worse than we patients.  How many times can a person deal with someone like me who goes off on minute descriptions of three massacres that I witnessed and did nothing to stop.  The overload is driving them mad.  They drug us down and shut us down to keep from hearing it. 

We need to be able to relieve them of the load they carry that so few of us recognize.  Even if we simply pull them out of the VA and pay them better and train them to go into schools and deal with developing mental problems, we will all win. Relieve the poor bastards that HAVE to listen. 

The most comfort that I had was a prostitute in one of the houses in Ely NV when I lost it after passing a bloody wreck on the way in.  She just held me and kept telling me “talk it out, baby, I’ve heard worse”  when the madam knocked on the door she just called “I’ve got a special.” Later the madam brought in another prostitute when the first one was crying worse than I was.  They pulled me together better than any doctor ever has.  They gave me the best thank you for your service of anyone in the whole damn country.

We need to rethink a lot of things concerning a lot of people.

Comment #166: less is more  on  06/16  at  03:43 AM

Re previous post. No we didn’t have sex.  I have been impotent for 20 years.  I just picked on someone who I knew would listen to me nonjudgmentally.  An excellent example of behavior that I am ashamed of.
No one charged me, the madam came out to my car with me to reassure herself that I was fit to drive.

Comment #167: less is more  on  06/16  at  03:49 AM

Well, way late to the game, but ... all the folks who never heard of “lame” being objectionable need to get out a bit more. To the person who said it doesn’t mean disabled, just icky, stupid, etc. How many people under a certain age use “gay” in just that way and insist there’s nothing remotely homophobic about it? If people in that community are saying they have a problem with it (and from everything I can see, they are), don’t use it. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard for my dad to remember not to say Oriental anymore, but language evolves and common courtesy requires us to evolve with it. There’s nothing inherently offensive about “Negro” either, but if I stamped my foot and insisted on the right to use whatever word I liked, well, people might rightly wonder just what I was on about.

Shakesville is a little too careful for me, but I’ve seen some feminist blogs I really like be a lot less careful than I’d like.

And I don’t agree with everything EGhead said, his/her treatment here doesn’t exactly speak well for the supposed openness to debate here.

Comment #168: chingona  on  06/16  at  03:49 AM

all the folks who never heard of “lame” being objectionable need to get out a bit more. [...] If people in that community are saying they have a problem with it (and from everything I can see, they are), don’t use it.

I agree that that ought to be the standard, and has been for decades (at least).  To be honest I’m sure I don’t get out enough to experience the current state of any kind of activism.  That’s why I wondered if “lame” had become a flashpoint recently, or if it’s been out there percolating and I’d just been missing it because of obliviousness, provincialism, and/or privilege.

Comment #169: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  04:10 AM

Is it unique to the liberal blogs?  I don’t read conservative ones.

No.  It’s far far worse on many conservative blogs, which is why they drift into wingnutism. Cf Little Green Footballs or some nut who calls himself the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiller or some such.

But this has been going on in Shakesville for a while. Note the date on that piece.

Comment #170: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/16  at  05:06 AM

As much as I usually enjoy reading the posts at Shakesville, it’s been almost a year since I last posted.  I try to be conscientious about not using offensive language in my posts (unless I am trying to be offensive, like calling someone an asshat) but I found the atmosphere of Shakesville paralyzed my ability to construct coherent and straightforward comments. What I ended up with were impenetrable comments peppered with parenthetical qualifications—comments that I never submitted.  In the last year I have noticed a distinct atmospheric change at Shakesville as Melissa attempted to create this “safe space”—it was a space no longer safe for progressive feminists like me to comment because regulars began (and continue) to use language policing to bully newbies who express opinions with which they disagree.  The dogpiling left a bad taste in my mouth and now I rarely read the comments. I think Chris Clarke nailed it on the head when he discussed “in-group” dynamics being a problem—as on all blogs, including Pandagon.

As a moderator of online forums, I do sometimes use trigger warnings or warnings for graphic content.  Most often, I use trigger warnings when discussing things like PPD or child loss, since I find descriptions of symptoms or suicidal ideation triggering and I deal with women still in the throes of their PPD/grief.  But I moderate a private, self-selecting group and since they are phpbb-based forums, often the title of a post is too vague to give members a sense of content.  On an open blog, I don’t mind either way and like to see the diversity. 

I admit, the “safe space” absurdities have less to do with why Shakesville is not a daily read than manipulative donation posts.  I could not stomach the pressure exerted on readers to make donations (working for a non-profit, I find coercion really undermines the concept of donation for me).

Comment #171: history_mom  on  06/16  at  05:12 AM

It’s unique to blogs.

Comment #172: chingona  on  06/16  at  05:15 AM

It’s a shame that this comments thread has turned into a pile-on of Shakesville.  Shakesville and Pandagon are my two must-check blogs, and they are very different.  Yes, they both have a feminist angle on this, but they are frequently covering very different topics. 

Shakesville, for example, much more frequently examines issues around sexual assault and rape than Pandagon, and in those circumstances I can see the need for trigger warnings.  No, you can’t foresee everyone’s triggers, but as some one said above, it’s a pretty safe bet that a direct discussion of sexual violence is gonna do it.

They are two different spaces with different atmospheres.  ‘Nuff said really.

And this obsession with the word “lame” is pretty worrying.  By which I mean, the obsession with wanting to say it.  Seriously, substitute it with any number of other words that previously people whinged about having to give up and see how the complaints sound then.

Comment #173: Katherine  on  06/16  at  06:15 AM

I demand a trigger warning for Chris Muir’s artwork.

Comment #174: Shaenon  on  06/16  at  06:38 AM

If this photoshop can’t be called lame, the terrorists will have won.

Comment #175: Zarquon  on  06/16  at  06:47 AM

his/her treatment here doesn’t exactly speak well for the supposed openness to debate here.

What about his/her treatment of Amanda and his/her characterizations of the choices Amanda has made for her blog?

Comment #176: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/16  at  07:06 AM

You know, if PiaTor is criticizing a feminist who nailed him, that feminist is probably doing a damned good job and it was probably needed.

Comment #177: ginmar  on  06/16  at  07:17 AM

Well to lighten this up a little, here is a warning for anyone who is thinking of posting on Feministing:

Whatever you do, don’t ever tell them that you do now, or ever have, douched!

Oh, madone, what a shitstorm that will start!  I have heard of slut-shaming, but you haven’t seen anything until you have seen the Feministing douche-slaming get going.

Comment #178: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  07:18 AM

“Well, way late to the game, but ... all the folks who never heard of “lame” being objectionable need to get out a bit more”

Maybe they need to get out a bit LESS.  It’s hard to imagine someone getting out more than I do.  And because I spend weekends out at restaurants, clubs, boats, the beach, barbeques, fire island, rather than reading blogs, I didn’t know about lame.

I haven’t used it since I found out, but I don’t appreciate the sneering, bullying, I’m so fucking much smarter than you are, way I was told about it.  I would never treat someone who didn’t know something that way.

Comment #179: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  07:27 AM

“And I don’t agree with everything EGhead said, his/her treatment here doesn’t exactly speak well for the supposed openness to debate here.

Sorry, I disagree.  I personally simply disagreed with them and with the self-pitying manner in which they insisted on trying to guilt me into You Must Agree With Me.

I was not nasty, and I didn’t notice anyone else being.  And no one told them they weren’t welcome here, of course they are.  They decided that since not everyone agreed that You Must Agree With Me, that meant they weren’t welcome here.

What it doesn’t say much for, is their ability and openess to debate.

Comment #180: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  07:31 AM

So, where was lame used as a pejorative in the last hundred years, tho?

I can point to examples for gay, spic, wetback, crip, etc.  So educate me.  Don’t lecture.

And give a reasonable alternative to either replace or begin to fill the gap taken,

Lastly, convince me that this isn’t just a power grab using a negative word and we’re not heading into double plus un-good territory.

Comment #181: Crissa  on  06/16  at  07:41 AM

I’m not sure how that’s passive-aggressive; that to me implies some sort of hidden message, and I think mine was pretty clear.  Trigger warnings are only patronizing if you think it’s pathetic to be triggered.

I disagree.  I said some women feel the need for that, and some women feel it’s inappropriate for what we need.  You pretty aggressively have argued—-as someone who hasn’t had the experience of recovering from sexual assault—-that the latter group is less deserving of having an atmosphere that makes us comfortable.  Because we’re “privileged” rape victims.  And you wonder why some people are beginning to feel weary—-it’s obvious as hell that your stance comes from the position that some rape victims are more deserving, because they satisfy an ideological need to have rape be something that permanently messes you up.

Comment #182: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/16  at  09:20 AM

I am way late on this train, but first I want to thank Amanda for discussing the issues at the heart of the Shakesville drama (I didn’t read the comments, so I didn’t really get what people were talking about form the posts alone, I just thought that Liss, who I greatly admire, had just over-extended herself with the blog (plus she doesn’t seem to get ad revenue because of the safe-space policy), so its doing a heck of a lot of work for free or donations. Also, I thought some trolls were more active than usual. Apparently it wasn’t about trolls, but a general revolution, which is sad.

I think that the safe-space concepts relates back to safe-space communities/communes for feminists back in the day. Its a place for recovery and discussion with people who are more plugged into feminism 101 than say Salon (worst troll grounds ever).

When reading blogs, you have to be aware of code-switching—using different dialects, language, styles of communication (like the difference between talking to your grandmother or a lover). I do have to be more guarded at Shakesville, but it also makes me re-evaluate my own relationship to language. I do feel more myself at Pandagon.

The trigger language can be problematic because I do think that it often turns those who won’t be triggered from reading it oddly enough or it makes it too precious. Then again, I haven’t been physically or sexually assaulted, so maybe I plain don’t get it. 

Your blog, your rules is fine by me—its not like its bloggers job to create the perfect mix-space for me or you or anybody else. Its their blog.

I will admit that I think I might have been banned from Feministe because I got into a shouting match with a guest blogger about social workers (my sister is a social worker and the woman pretty much wanted to rant about how awful all social workers are and I pointed out that its the system and cited specific examples from the numerous social workers I know and how much they really do care, but are often stymied by the system, then I compared income/hours/case loads, and unpaid overtime that’s all problematic, but the guest blogger just wanted to talk about how much it sucked to be a client, and oh, the paper-work the mean social workers demand is too much, blah, so I told her to fuck off…which was really not mature, but you know, the internets). So I’ve been banned somewhere and I’m pretty well behaved, but again—its their blog..they can take their ball and go home.

One thing that I do wish Shakesville might consider, but now with this big blow up it will probably never happen, its accept general add revenue. No, content control not so great and a diet add might who up next to a post about body-acceptance, but I think most readers get the concept of editorial content being different from ad content. Its just, with all the stress of running a big blog like Shakesville, and people not having a lot of dough for donations right now, or ever if you are catering to traditionally oppressed populations (its not like Ross Perot is reading Shakesville), then the financial commitment of making a blog your full-time job without pay is going to be emotionally as well as financially untenable. I wouldn’t do my job for free and Liss needs to get paid, but the philosophy of safe-space may ultimately make the blog for defunct. Which sucks. I wish all the best to those at Shakesville.

Comment #183: Thealogian  on  06/16  at  09:21 AM

I see the trigger warning as sort of an asking if you’re in a safe space, not an implication that you’re too broken to deal with whatever story/discussion is going on (since you still have the choice of ignoring the warning).

See, it creates a different reaction for me.  I accept other people’s are valid, and wouldn’t ever argue that they don’t deserve a space where their desires are catered to.  But people who have my reaction are also valid, wouldn’t you say?  Don’t we deserve a space?

And that’s my point.  What people are chafing against is the dreary “one rule for everyone and every space” demands, which I reject, because that sort of regime is more likely to make people feel left out than having diverse blog tones meet diverse desires.

Comment #184: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/16  at  09:27 AM

I’d say the argument on ‘lame’ goes like this:

On one side, I think there is the compelling case that if someone says that a word offends them, and they’re in position to be offended by it, you take it at face value and use it with caution in other circumstances, if at all (probably not at all, though there’s always the circumstance where someone else says “this doesn’t offend me.”)

Then at the other end, there’s the case to be made that “lame” is completely without meaning in the context of disabled people; that most people who use it would not make the connection at all.  People may say “That’s so gay” without believing that it’s a homophobic slur, but I think most who make that claim are being disingenuous.  I think “That’s so lame” is usually free of that. 

And as for “retarded” I think that’s going to be a perennial victim of euphemism inflation, as whatever we use to refer to the mentally handicapped politely is going to be co-opted by people who use it scornfully.  “Retarded” itself was a polite term, replacing things like “moron” or “idiot” which were themselves technical terms for what had previously been just “slow” “dull” or “stupid.”  But “special” got to be an insult, and when I was growing up, even the acronym for the special education program became a schoolyard insult.  I’m really not sure what to do, except to just keep moving the ball forward.

Comment #185: Billingham  on  06/16  at  09:28 AM

Bridle all you like: the term “darkie” may not be the preferred slur against black people anymore, but that doesn’t make it ok to use casually. Yes, language changes, but it keeps its root meanings.

No, Pandagon isn’t going to police your language on words like “moron” or “lame” or even “retarded.” And I don’t think we should because people need a place to get their kneejerk indignation at being called out for ablist language out of their system so that they can move beyond it and not take a defensive stance.

It really costs nothing to be a little more sensitive in language. Yes, you have to be a little more creative when you want a snappy rhetorical way to say that something is so mind-blowingly stupid that it could throw it’s own OMGWTF Barbecue, but I look at that as a bonus. :D And if it makes people around me a little more comfortable, and like I’m not just another brick in the wall of a society that hates them and marginalizes them, then win win for me.

Comment #186: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/16  at  09:31 AM

I’m saying that by refusing to do certain things, you alienate people, and for no real reason. 

And by not refusing to do certain things, you alienate entirely other groups of people.  Like I said, some survivors feel the need for trigger warnings, some feel insulted by these.  I say different strokes, different folks.  You say that the former’s needs trump the latter.  I fail to see any other interpretation of “you alienate people”—-what about people who find trigger warnings alienating?  Why do their feelings not count?  How come my methods of coping, which involve irreverence (and I’m not the only one) count less?  You haven’t answered this yet.

Comment #187: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/16  at  09:36 AM

I promise to only use the term lamé from here on out. Instead of conjuring up pictures of Valley Girl and Jesus healing people with mud and magic, it will accurately connote the depressing crappiness of a situation by recalling the gaywad outfits Liberace used to wear. From here on out, the word that rhymes with “maim” may only be used ironically by differently-abled comedians.

And moron’s out because of Victorian IQ scales? So imbecile and idiot as well?

Comment #188: norbizness  on  06/16  at  10:02 AM

“And moron’s out because of Victorian IQ scales? So imbecile and idiot as well? “

If I can’t use those words I have no way of describing Republicans and most of the guys who workout at my gym.

That’s a bridge too far for me, sorry.  I never use the word retard though.  And I won’t go back on that, but that’s as far as I go on this.

Comment #189: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  10:07 AM

And by not refusing to do certain things, you alienate entirely other groups of people.

Bingo. “Trigger warnings,” more-PC-than-thou pile-ons, and hair-trigger bannings are flashing red stay-away signs to liberals who value open discourse and treating adults like adults.

That said, SV is primarily concerned with a certain subset of feminist identity politics rather than general liberalism that incorporates feminism as an essential element, so the censorious policies and the dogmatic tone are quite appropriate for that venue. I personally think it’s a narrow point of view, but I don’t feel alienated in my own feminism—I just don’t bother hanging out there, and certainly wouldn’t demand they make changes.

Comment #190: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  10:12 AM

Caton, here’s the deal. EGHead’s argument amounted to “I think it’s more considerate of a broad range of readers to use trigger warnings.” Amanda disagrees. That’s cool. Personally, I’m completely agnostic on the subject of trigger warnings. Use ‘em. Don’t use ‘em. I could care less. But the whole thing turns into EGHead is saying Amanda is a bad person and anyone who doesn’t need them or like them is a bad person and a bad sexual assault survivor, and EGHead is some kind of horrible person for thinking the lesser of two evils is to throw up a trigger warning.

If you think arguing in bad faith against arguments the other person never made is a good spirit for debate, well, have at it.

And to all the people who feel they need to be convinced not to use lame, well, if folks saying they find it offensive and wish you’d find another word isn’t enough, than it’s not enough. I’m not here to police you. But it’s pretty rich to see all these people bitching and moaning about their right to use whatever language they want.

See, Caton, this isn’t me being the PC-police or the language police. It’s just me having a different opinion. Sorry that hurts your feelings.

Comment #191: chingona  on  06/16  at  10:23 AM

As long as we’re being irreverent, I think that “showing your privilege” is inaccurately applied about 92% of the time in comment threads. The good 8% of the time is when somebody says “I can’t imagine x happening” or “I’ve never heard of y,” thereby betraying some sort of Little Lord Fauntleroy-like upbringing. Unfortunately, this accurate application is outweighed about 10-1 by something that essentially means “how dare you disagree with me.”

And the overuse of silencing, othering, and shaming (all valid concepts) in comment threads often sounds like something the Simpsons’ writers came up with to lampoon self-help books by Brad Goodman. Remember: by nagging me when I do foolish things, you just enable my life script.

Comment #192: norbizness  on  06/16  at  10:24 AM

And moron’s out because of Victorian IQ scales? So imbecile and idiot as well?

Agreed, it’s ridiculous: “moron,” “imbecile,” etc. have evolved in their usage since the 19th century; “n*gger” and “k*ke,” not so much (I add the asterisks to avoid troll-bait search engine indexing, BTW). Y’know, it gets to be a bloody minefield when we willfully ignore a little thing called “context.” And we harder we try, the worse it gets. For example, this from the biggest advocate for PC language in this thread:

No, I can’t just flounce from this.

Sorry, but no: “flounce” is a gender-freighted term, and it can’t be used with such casual disregard for those of both genders who’ve been accused of hysterics. “Walk away”? Nope: ableist and ageist—you’re indicating your privilege over those who can’t walk. And I could keep going—for any term, I can find an aggrieved party to object.

It’s always a no-win, style-killing situation when one overcompensates to show how pure and righteous one is.

Comment #193: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  10:28 AM

People may say “That’s so gay” without believing that it’s a homophobic slur, but I think most who make that claim are being disingenuous.  I think “That’s so lame” is usually free of that.

See, I think most of the people who say “that’s so gay” actually don’t believe it’s homophobic. I was in middle school when it first started to get used the way it’s used today, and my uncle was gay, and I was really aware of how not cool it was. It definitely was homophobic when it started, and everyone knew it. But for kids today, who need to get off my lawn right this minute, I actually believe most of them use it because they’ve always used it that way because they’ve always heard it that way and they’ve never stopped to think about it.

Comment #194: chingona  on  06/16  at  10:29 AM

No, Eghead’s argument amounted to; if everyone won’t agree with me and start behaving this way, then that’s telling me I’m not wanted here and I’m leaving.

Chingona you don’t have a different opinion that I do on the word lame.  I said I don’t use it.  I really dislike when someone with a chip on their shoulder comes along and kicks me to make themselves feel better.  You are arguing with me over something I never said, and completely disregarding what I did say.

What I did say was that if you want to educate people, you do it in a nice way.  You don’t run up to them and yell OMG YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID HOW CAN YOU NOT BE AS SMART AS I AM BY NOT KNOWING THIS!. 

I said that I didn’t appreciate how I was informed of the possible offensiveness of the word lame.  I was not even personally informed, I watched as the girl who used it was dogpiled and mauled, while at the same time knowing that I would have used it and that I had no fucking idea why it wasn’t okay to use it.  I didn’t know what ableist privilege meant.  What part of that do you not fucking get?  I am really sick and tired of saying that over and over.

I did not know what ablesit privledge meant, what part of that do you, or anyone else, not fucking get?  You come on here and you get yourself into a big oh look at me tizzy over the use of words and the alleged privilege they imply, and you and the people who do the same thing, never think to themselves, maybe I am fucking privileged to know what ablesit privilege means.  Unless you are personally handicapped or know someone who is and becamse exposed to this language that way, you learned it in a higher-education surrounding.  that makes you fucking priviledged.  And you lord it over others by treating them like, exuse me, fucking morons, if they weren’t as privileged.

I have a BA in English from Hofstra so I have no hangups about being uneducated.  However, there is no dout that many who hang on feminist sites have advanced degress, many in women studies.  Now, you can either use that PRIVILEGE to open the mind of others, or you can use it to be bullying, bossy, sneering, and sarcastic to those who don’t know as much as you do.

You can top that off by being dishonest and claiming I hold a view I never said I hold.

I’m tempted to say fuck you, but I try to be nice on this blog. 

So, I’ll just say:

Sincerely yours,

Caton

Comment #195: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  10:33 AM

Chigona is aggressive aggressive.  Still wrong and patronizing, but in your face.

Comment #196: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  10:38 AM

Amanda, while you don’t post trigger warnings, you also talk about sexual violence as if it’s a horrible thing that has wide-reaching implications instead of playing it for shock and titillation. Which makes you both different from a safe-spaces blog and different from, say, Jezebel, whose news roundups I often read with a finger hovering over the page-down so that I can flinch away from something that’s going to give me nightmares. I am not a survivor of much of anything but I have an overactive imagination and can’t watch violent movies because I appreciate not seeing horrible things happening to people played as entertainment. And you don’t play them as entertainment. Therein lies the difference between feminist blogs and, say, the news.

Comment #197: purpleshoes  on  06/16  at  10:46 AM

“On some blog (maybe shakesville?) someone objected to “blind”, as in “blind to the truth”. Still not sure if that was a joke or not.”

I’m skipping some replies to post this, so I may be missing some commentary here.

OK. It’s not a joke.

FlipYrWhig asked whether there was conscious-raising going on. I don’t think there is *feminist* consciousness raising going on. What there seems to be is either A) disability rights consciousness raising going on, or B) consciousness raising around the intersectionality of disability rights and feminism. I am frankly not informed enough about disability rights to say which of those two it is, although it affects whether disability rights activists are recently asking people to avoid the word lame, or are only recently asking out-group activists to avoid the word lame.

There are a number of other words that are up for criticism: deaf, dumb, blind, idiot, retard, insane, crazy, and so on. Also concepts: I received some criticism at Alas from a thoughtful and intelligent blogger, Wheelchair Dancer, for a post in which I quoted someone else’s metaphor that criticism by black people was like having one’s feet blown off by a landmine, and also for another post in which I suggested the liberal blogosphere was “cutting off its own feet” by being hypervigilant about who can or cannot be considered a liberal ally.

Disability activists are—like other specialized activists—going to have their own ways of thinking about politics. Feminists (a group that overlaps with disability activists in a ven diagrammy way) have to decide for themselves, and in groups have to decide for their groups, to what extent they want to incorporate disability activism into their philosophy.

I like to think there’s an ideal wherein I—as a progressive—incorporate all kinds of anti-oppression philosophies into my philosophical matrix. I tend to resist saying they’re all feminism (which is an argument that comes up sometimes, for instance, it really ticked me off at feministe when someone said that animal rights was an inherently feminist issue; it sure isn’t central to MY feminism), but I would like them to be something I uphold.

However, by the rules that I’ve seen set out on some disability rights blogs, I am not only currently ableist (which by the way, I completely admit that I am), but I don’t even want to BE not ableist. For instance, I believe there was a post at Ballast Existenz that laid something out very clearly and said, “If you believe this, you’re ableist,” and because honesty is something I value, I basically mentally responded, “OK, then I’m ableist, because I think this particular belief is okay.” And that was the point I defined for myself as the boundary of my being an ally, even though I think that being an ally to people who suffer oppression is an inherently good thing to be.

So—for instance—I think selective abortions to eliminate disability, even down syndrome, are okay. I’ve read the arguments against them. I understand those arguments. I don’t agree with them.

When it comes to words, I avoid the word retard, and I try (and sometimes fail) to avoid the word lame, because I hear disabled people consistently say these are terms that cause them pain, and I do my best to believe people who belong to groups I don’t belong to about what kinds of words they find appropriate. As a white Jewish woman, I also believe race activists who I trust when they tell me how they want to deal with words, even if I don’t find those things intuitive at first.

With race, I find the intuitive leap often comes pretty quickly. With disability rights, I don’t always feel that way. But—within my imperfect limits as an ally to disabled people—I generally try to be as supportive as I can, because the number of major points I agree with them on—for instance fucking accessibility issues—is so enormous compared to my minor complaints that it seems to me that I can only do damage by focusing on my minor disagreements. Certainly, this is true publicly, when I’m writing blog posts on Alas, for instance. My limited ally role means focusing on agreements, and allowing disability rights activists to determine fiddly semantic stuff for themselves because, after all, to a great extent I’m not affected and they are, so it means basically nothing to me and a lot to them.

(Which is why I still use the words ‘crazy’ and ‘insane’—I suffer from depression and anxiety, so I think I get a say in whether those words are okay, in a way that I don’t particularly need to have a say about ‘lame.’)

But in any case, I think people are imputing the fuss about ‘lame’ to feminism and feminist consciousness raising when it is in fact coming out of disability rights activism which is not an identical group.

Comment #198: Mandolin  on  06/16  at  10:48 AM

Damnit, I got so pissed that I left off something important after the part where I stated that I have a BA in English so I don’t have hang-ups about feeling uneducated.

I noticed someone else saying earlier that they don’t post much because they are out of their depth because everyone here has advanced educations.  Well, not everyone here does, but think about how all of this smug throwing around of phrases like ableist privilege affects those who have high school educations or less.  They’re here because they’re interested and want to learn.  (that’s why I’m here too!) I don’t know if you are stating you were directly involved in that Feminsting incident, and it almost seems like you are stating that, but either way, no one involved in that including the most high-profile board founder, ever had it occur to them that the original poster and the others who were like “huh?” didn’t know what abelist privilege was!  It was amazing.  They just kept barking it over and over.  Never occurred them, hey, they don’t know what that means.  I know what it means, everyone must know.  That’s the very definition of privilege.  It was the very height of irony, and something I bookmarked along with one of the more ludicrous “OMG you douche,  you’re not a feminist you’re vagina isn’t dirty you pitiful brainwashed moron!” because I want to write something about it at some point.  I tend towards humor writing.  And that is some fucking humorous shit.

Anyway, I consider myself pretty much an autodidact when it comes to Women’s studies.  Who is to say that a woman with a high school diploma, or a ged, isn’t sitting around reading bell hooks?  Maybe she is unsure of how to express herself in an academic manner and frightened by the reactions she sees to those who aren’t absolute privileged masters of the academic lingo. 

In other words; chill out and stop being so dictatorial and smug.  If I use a word that bothers you, let me know about it, but if you do it in a bullying or condescending manner, you won’t get far.  And not just with me, with most people.

Comment #199: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  10:50 AM

Mandolin that was a really interesting post and contained things I did not know, thanks.

Comment #200: Lady Vader  on  06/16  at  10:53 AM

In other words; chill out and stop being so dictatorial and smug.  If I use a word that bothers you, let me know about it, but if you do it in a bullying or condescending manner, you won’t get far.  And not just with me, with most people.

Exactly.  Bullying is bullying, passive aggressive tactics are passive aggressive tactics, and our society uses both in large quantities to control women.

Ergo, bullying and passive aggressive behavior are not feminist.  I have never had much tolerance for either, which has gotten me labeled a bad girl, women, wife, or mother from time to time because I resist and fight back.  But that makes me “anti-feminist” I suppose, because I don’t capitulate with inapppropriate, bad faith behavior coming from women or the left.  Too bad.

Comment #201: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  11:02 AM

Oh, it may be the part of the country I grew up in, but I have only heard the term lame aimed at a person when it was a temporary injury situation ... such as “he was leading into the sixth hurdle, but pulled up lame and didn’t finish the race”.  It may be possible that some people still use it to describe persons with disabilities, but I’ve never encountered it in that sense outside of books written long ago.  If people could share their own experiences with it, it would be helpful.

Retard, on the other hand, is clearly in common perjoritive use.  We used to use the technical designation “MR” as a perjoritive in grade school, but the effect is the same.

Scene in a Seafood Restaurant, a couple years ago:
Kid #1: what is this stuff?
Kid #2: it’s Tartar Sauce
Kid #3: retarded sauce?
Kid #1: SHHHH! that isn’t nice!  You should call it Special Sauce!

Comment #202: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  11:11 AM

Chigona is aggressive aggressive.  Still wrong and patronizing, but in your face.

Thanks for recognizing that. My brother-in-law also once called me passive-aggressive after I told him to go fuck himself. Um, no.

Caton,

My initial post on lame was not directed at any one person. You chose to take it really personally. If you don’t use lame and aren’t standing up for the use of lame, then it really, really wasn’t directed at you.

I love that I’m now a bully.

Comment #203: chingona  on  06/16  at  11:14 AM

I had to look up Kathy Sierra. I was confusing her with another blogger, who got death threats over something specific that she said. I think what happened to her is terrible. I’m not going to complain about “needing the disclaimer” because I think it is valuale to affirmatively state that what happened to Sierra is wrong.

But another way of looking at what I said—-and one I, naturally, reject—-is, I checked up on Sierra to find out if her harassment was her own fault or not, and, having determined that it’s not, deigned to be sympathetic. After all, you have only my word for it that I am opposed to death threats in general, and in favor of freedom of speech for women, and further that if such attacks had been a clear response to a specific position she took I would recognize the element of misogyny in that, just as the misogyny in attacking a woman for being a woman is readily apparent. And I feel setting out to create a safe space, at least without a sizeable committee of people of diverse opinions enforcing clear and consistant rules about it, ultimitely leads to an environment in which the second interpretation is seen as reasonable, and too often an echo chamber where it’s seen as normal.

FlipYrWig:

I have been a regular Shakesville reader and sometime participant who feels tense when he attempts to articulate even minor differences with front-pagers’ interpretations of news stories or cultural artifacts like movies or ads.

I agree with this comment in it’s entirety, but I wanted to mention this in particular; the Approved Interpretation of a lot of things appears to be that someone is being deliberately and explicitly sexist (or racist, or homophobic, or transphobic) because they are bad people; no thought is given to the possibility that maybe the subtler expressions of sexism are inadvertent, and caused by a lack of sensitivity to these things or, at worst, largely unconscious sexism taken from the larger culture that’s inevitale if you don’t watch out for it—-and a man has little motivation to watch out for it if no one tells him to (myself included). And while this doesn’t make anthing less offensive or mean people shouldn’t be offended by it, often the most productive response is to say “I find this offensive, and here’s why.” Reacting as if it’s Captain Planet villain-type misogyny seems to confirm stereotypes about feminists.

The minor demicontretemps here over “lame” is a good example: there are blogs (not necessarily any that have been mentioned here) where Maureen would be excoriated, and possibly banned, for saying “I’m not sure that the vilification of the word ‘lame’ was done out of respect for people so much as the opportunity to one-up someone.” Here, by contrast, the reaction was along the lines of “you’re wrong, and here’s why.” And lo and behold, she responded positively to the approach that assumed good faith on her part.

PiaToR:

That’s the claim.  I found myself adopting more and more contrarian positions as the PC cloud got thicker there, and eventually I was banned for… not agreeing that letting Rick Warren speak at the inauguration was a big deal.  Seriously - this disagreement was cited as violating “safe space”.

And you were wrong raspberry But there’s a difference between saying that and actual homophobia, actually attacking someone. There are few smaller sins than being wrong, after all.

Flip:

it was interesting to note how many people felt that the atmosphere of having to watch what they said and what everyone else said—the “walking on eggshells” feeling—_was itself triggering_.

I can certainly see that, e.g. for survivors of emotional abuse or ACOAs

Apostate:

To use a quick example, if you were raised in a cult, the mere use by someone of the word ‘cult’ is not going to likely trigger you, but a Shakesville commenter (or two) claimed to be triggered in this way. Thus shutting down discussion about cultish behavior.

It also then seems to be a good way of ending discussion without having to give a real reason. No one can argue with you about what you find triggering, after all. Again, I see that behavior mostly on LiveJournal.

Comment #204: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/16  at  11:17 AM

Some people above talked about the danger of trigger warnings being watered down.  I’ve always appreciated being warned if there are going to be graphic depictions of violence.  When the trigger warning gets applied in every other way it means that I either have to abandon the field or read the post anyway, negating the point of the warning.

For the first year after I had a baby I had extremely heightened anxiety.  I would check her constantly, and depictions of babies in jeopardy or stories about child abuse triggered the anxiety I was already feeling.  To me, that’s what a trigger is…  it means that the description of a thing may reasonably bring out a visceral PTSD-type reaction in the person who hears it. 

I may be lacking in empathy over this issue, but I really can’t see the comparison between a graphic description of violence and use of a word.  I really don’t see how misuse of a word can be a trigger in the way that I’m describing.  It can make me annoyed, but I’m familiar enough with anxiety to have a really clear idea of the difference between being annoyed and being actually triggered.  I wish people would stop watering the concept down to meaninglessness.

Comment #205: Eileen  on  06/16  at  11:19 AM

Okay, here it is:  http://www.wordswarm.net/mw-2003/Lame.html

Before the 12th century, “lame” meant a disabled body part that impaired movement.

As of 1959, it came to mean the current connotation.  Unless you look at this website:  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lame  and see that it started meaning socially awkward in 1942.

So, again, no.  I’m not going to have my language (dare I say it) crippled by people who are offended by 12th century connotations of the word.  The english language is amazing with how descriptive it is and how different words can be used in different contexts.  I’m sure people will jump on me for using “cripple” in that manner, but why?  Because I shouldn’t use the word “cripple” at all?  Even when it does involve excise parts of my language from my mouth?  That’s the very definition of cripple.

Also, “lame” is most certainly *not* like other words that we can substitute.  Words like “bitch” or “cunt” or “douchebag” are used by many feminists and I dare anyone to say that we haven’t considered whether we should stop.  A word being gendered or racial or ablist, on its face, is not a good reason to stop using it.  It’s probably only on a case by case basis that we can make determinations.  I can’t think of any racially-charged words that I’m okay using because they are all insults.  I use words like “slut” and “whore” as an adjective and not a noun to avoid the shaming sense of the word (like:  I’m dressing slutty tonight).

I could keep going but I ran out of coffee.  This is something I give a lot of thought to and feel very strongly about. 

(Also, Ms. Kate, your little crack about my rule of thumb caused me to snort coffee through my nose, burning the membranes or whatever in there.  So thanks for that!  Hahaha!)

Comment #206: Rachel,II  on  06/16  at  11:23 AM

” the Approved Interpretation of a lot of things appears to be that someone is being deliberately and explicitly sexist (or racist, or homophobic, or transphobic) because they are bad people; no thought is given to the possibility that maybe the subtler expressions of sexism are inadvertent, and caused by a lack of sensitivity to these things or, at worst, largely unconscious sexism taken from the larger culture that’s inevitale if you don’t watch out for it—-and a man has little motivation to watch out for it if no one tells him to (myself included). And while this doesn’t make anthing less offensive or mean people shouldn’t be offended by it, often the most productive response is to say “I find this offensive, and here’s why.” Reacting as if it’s Captain Planet villain-type misogyny seems to confirm stereotypes about feminists.”

Hershele, I’m responding to you about this because you post on Alas sometimes, so I’m worried you’re seeing the dynamic there too (which wouldn’t be unfair, at times).

I assume the reason that this happens on Shakesville is the same as the reason this happens on Alas (where very often, if someone is going to be making the leap of assuming bad faith, it will be me). That’s because most feminist blogs are trolled, constantly and relentlessly, by people who ARE acting in bad faith.

The reason for this is natural. People don’t tend to seek out stuff they don’t care about. So, you don’t get a lot of neutral people on feminist blogs. You tend to get either feminists or dedicated anti-feminists.

It sucks that sometimes people are assumed to be in bad faith when they are just ignorant, but the behavior isn’t occurring in a void. It’s occurring because of the intolerably high levels of hatred directed toward most internet feminist sites.

I’d apologize for hair triggers, but I think they can be useful, too… it’s just a push-me-pull-you situation where something’s probably going to end up sucking for someone.

Comment #207: Mandolin  on  06/16  at  11:29 AM

I read both pandagon and Shakesville religiously, even the comment threads, and I honestly appreciate both approaches to moderation. I don’t find the moderators there to be particularly mean to people who make honest mistakes in the process of having an honest and thoughtful dialogue. I have been called out for language use before and after a period of blinding hot rage I got the hell over it and learned something about my own biases.

The internet is a tricky place, where blogs are at once entirely public and intensely private. What the fuck is the point of getting all het up because Melissa McEwan wants to have a space where she can blog without getting triggered by people she considers her friends and allies? And on the other hand, what’s the point of getting all het up because Amanda has a foul mouth? On the other hand, I do appreciate trigger warnings in the same way I appreciate spoiler warnings. Unless content is locked behind a members-only login it can be easily stumbled upon at vulnerable moments.

Comment #208: Sarah TX  on  06/16  at  11:43 AM

I think the only time I ever use the word “retarded” is when I want to make fun of Bostonians.

Comment #209: spence-bob  on  06/16  at  11:58 AM

Spence-bob, it’s no joke when you consider how extremely high the median childhood blood lead levels were around here between the 1920s and 1970s. I think it qualifies as a technical designation for many people, particularly older ones.  When I went to UMass Lowell, a fair percentage of the older staff was not normally functioning.

That lead damage to young brains is now part of what is driving the epidemic of Alzheimer’s disease (cigarette smoke exposure in the smokiest generation ever being the other component).

Comment #210: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  12:05 PM

Since this thread appears to be continuing, I’ll put in my two cents.  As a long-time lurker at both SV and Pandagon, I’ve learned a tremendous amount from both blogs.  They’re raised my consciousness in important but different ways.  As someone who is trying to learn about and incorporate feminist perspectives into my thinking, I value the dialogue at SV because it pushes the boundaries of my awareness of privelege.  I don’t always agree with the perspectives there, but I learn a lot about how others view these issues.  However, the conversations at Pandagon are more comfortable and accessible to me, my lurking notwithstanding. 

Recent efforts at SV to create a safe space seem to be important to the core of their readers/commenters.  Actually, the particular KIND of safe space they are trying to create is important to that group.  But as the ‘walking on eggshells’ feelings expressed here and at Apostate’s blog have suggested, it’s not clear that it’s a safe space for those of us who are trying to work up the courage to participate in, rather than simply observe, their conversations.  For me the value of Amanda’s perspective here is that it feels like a safe space for me to try to engage these issues from a position of ignorance.  The atmosphere at SV is not one, IMO, that is conducive to participatory learning, which is the kind I like best.  That being said, I do think they should organize their community as they see fit.  I’ll just have to keep learning from the outside.

Comment #211: OikoNerd  on  06/16  at  12:10 PM

While I find some things troubling, bad-memory-evoking, and even panic-inducing to read (related to past rape trauma), I am fully capable, during those times I feel “wobbly”, of not reading things that are obviously related to rape, abuse, violence, etc.  In fact, I tend to stay away from the Internet and television altogether—just for a while, as that’s usually all that’s needed—until that wobbly, panicky feeling subsides.  YMMV, as they say.  But I’m acutely aware that triggers can also come out of nowhere, and as apostate noted, you can’t expect the entire world to accommodate you and stop painting their walls blue, just as I cannot expect people to not make drinks with tequila, I can’t tell my rural neighbors they can’t hold target practice in their backyards because the gunshots make me want to throw myself onto the ground over and over, and I can’t demand restaurants to stop using onions in everything (don’t ask).

Thanks for linking, Amanda.  I wish I’d seen this piece earlier, but since people are still reading here, let me reiterate something I think is important re: the latest SV meltdown and subsequent “blog rebellion”: the substance of so many complaints, by ex-readers and ex-contributors, has less to do with asking people to refrain from using certain words, almost nothing to do with trigger warnings per se, and everything to do with the following:  1) the emotionally manipulative, passive-aggressive behavior—toward a readership increasingly made up of fragile, vulnerable souls—exhibited by those charged with running the place (chiding readers the way a parent scolds a child, then disappearing altogether for days without as much as a sentence to explain what was going on, which led to long threads of ever-more-desperate-sounding comments pleading for their return and flagellating themselves for whatever it was they did wrong that brought about this horrible silence); 2) the strange, eerie groupthink tone of comments when the blog did return (more than a few, myself included, have described the behavior and language patterns as “cult-like”); 3) the blog’s utterly inconsistent rule-enforcement (i.e. regulars and mods ganging up and bullying people for the tiniest verbal infraction); and finally, 4) the incessant complaints about how much exhausting work this was to do all day and how awful it made Melissa feel, coupled with what many have described as guilt-tripping money requests and a tin-ear to the obvious financial strain so many of us are under.

One oft-cited example was when a struggling single mother stated that she was expecting her assistance money soon and would hopefully have $5 left she could donate, sorry it isn’t more, etc., and the contributor, who shall remain nameless, simply stated that “no amount was too small”, instead of telling her, No Worries, to take care of herself and her family fer Chrissakes, this is a freaking blog.  Numerous readers have said they were going to give up their morning latte so they could contribute; others said they’ve stopped going to the movies so they could contribute; yet more have said they are setting up monthly donations because they consider it Melissa’s salary.

People are of course free to spend their money as they wish, and if reading any given blog, PC or not, brings someone more comfort and joy than a good slog of caffeine and sugar, hey, more power to them for finding a non-caffeinated, non-sugary, calorie-free pleasure.  But you can’t fault those who are upset about being exhorted to donate because the implication is that this is her salary, and if it’s not a living wage, well then, you must not value women’s work (yes, this has been stated numerous times)—and who then donate—but when they ask “Where is the money going?”, are told in no uncertain times, “It’s none of your business”.

I’m saddened. I liked the community there, and it was hard to see it slowly devolving down into a Little Green Circlejerk.

As so often happens, PIATOR echoes my thoughts.  I am sad too.  Many are, in fact, and that’s why there has been so much commentary on this: people needed to address the loss of something they enjoyed, and we did all enjoy SV, back in the day.  Which is not to say it is our right to have things never change on us, or that we aren’t free to go elsewhere (clearly we all have).  Rather, it’s to say that a significant number of people (if comments at my place and e-mails in my Inbox are any indication) have been utterly bewildered by all this for more than a little while, and now that the discussion of the whys and whats is finally “out there”, they finding it instructive and cathartic.

Comment #212: litbrit  on  06/16  at  12:12 PM

If “lame” is ableist then wouldn’t all ambulatory metaphors be so as well?

No more “tiptoeing” around sensitive subjects. Bad habits will no longer be “kicked” and programs will not be “run”. And don’t even think about “skipping” class.

Do you see what I’m saying?

Oh shit, I forgot about the blind…

Comment #213: Sarcastro  on  06/16  at  12:15 PM

“bitch” or “cunt” or “douchebag”

Hm?  (Brings head up from book.)  Yes, Rachel,II?

Oh, I’m sorry.  I just thought you were addressing me.  Never mind.  As you were.

Comment #214: seeker6079  on  06/16  at  12:17 PM

i’m coming from exactly the same place as oikonerd - i have a pretty hard time commenting on any blog, and this is my first time here. i feel very shy about it. all i’d like to say is if i was to do so on a regular basis, i’d be all about commenting specifically at pandagon. people above had reasonable disagreements and expressed themselves (sometimes) elegantly and (sometimes) logically, but it didn’t get into name-calling. a lot of the commenters have said they value being thick-skinned, and yet i notice that they also are all treating each other with respect even when they vehemently disagree about a word like ‘lame’. no one was told they were not welcome, though maybe someone felt they weren’t. it seems to me that because people are less stressed about their language they are able to spend more time engaging one another on the issue in a way which i find remarkably polite for blogs (though truth be told, i don’t find the word ‘fuck’ to be impolite at all; colorful language helps me express myself at the right time).

as amanda said, to each their own. i read McEwan’s articles sometimes, and she can be super insightful. her site works best for her; neat! and amanda’s strategy works best for her, and the apostate’s for her (i’m totally loving her blog and wish i had seen it earlier). that’s diversity. that’s why i go to different blogs: not to read the same thing 5 times, but to see how 5 different people see the world. their different ideas only help expand my own mind.

oh, and ms. kate and caton: i loved your comments.

Comment #215: thefeistysweetheart  on  06/16  at  12:29 PM

Christ, I thought that pic was a bad edit. But no, it’s a Chris Muir original. He’s getting worse with time.

Comment #216: sirkowski  on  06/16  at  12:32 PM

I think a good judge of if a particular word is being used in a specifically derogatory way is if there are any other further development of the term by the user.  Basically, thinking like this:

People say “That’s retarded” and the accompany it with drooling faces, speech impediments, and and twitchy gestures.  That’s going up shit creek on the issue.

“That’s so gay” is used differently, but there’s definitely a contingent that uses “That’s so gay/queer/faggoty/fruity” interchangeably, even when it’s just meant to describe something uncool.  Most users don’t use the more offensive terms, but I’d say the former group still has a considerable influence over the word in pop culture.  It also matches up closely with the fact that people (teenage boys especially) still use “That’s so gay” to describe things that are in any way effeminate (poetry is gay, RPGs are gay, etc.), where it really both means “bad” and it means “homosexual.”

“That’s lame,” I think, is never used in that context.  Nobody runs through (offensive) synonyms (That’s so crippled?) and nobody accompanies it with limping or other cues that they’re talking about a disability.  This doesn’t mean that it’s not offensive, but I think it usually means that the speaker is not trying to be offensive, and their privilege is usually the “I haven’t had to think about this” type, whereas ‘that’s gay’ is the “I’ve thought about this, but decided I don’t care” type of privilege.

Then there’s “pussy,” which I think is in a similar place as ‘gay.’  Most of the time, it just slides through without context (though the fact that it’s used by men about other men shows that it’s certainly not a gendered term.)  I heard one person claim that he used ‘pussy’ as in ‘cat’ as in ‘fraidy-cat,’ but I think that was disingenuous too - I’ve heard people start with “you pussy” and move on to “get a tampon” but rarely go from “you pussy” to “go back to your litter box.”

Comment #217: Billingham  on  06/16  at  12:33 PM

But mocking him for being an addict just seems like a pretty illiberal way to go about it, and even if it’s not illiberal, it’s pretty damn inhumane.

Pretty sure that’s exactly what I said, ChrisMM. 

And as for “retarded” I think that’s going to be a perennial victim of euphemism inflation, as whatever we use to refer to the mentally handicapped politely is going to be co-opted by people who use it scornfully.  ... I’m really not sure what to do, except to just keep moving the ball forward.

That’s the real reason for political correctness, before it was co-opted by the bigots.  It’s not just refusing to use language that is hurtful; it’s understanding why it is hurtful.

People say idiotic, hateful things.  That’s not retarded, though it may indicate a retardation in thinking or empathy.  The word “retard” has had a real resurgence over the past 5-10 years.  It dropped out of favor when “Life Goes On” was a popular TV show starring a person with Down Syndrome.

I never really watched it, but I did notice that when I went out with my brother, more people smiled than acted frightened.  For that, I’m grateful for the show.

But now “retard” has come back with such a vengeance that even the Special Olympics is making a blatant attempt to root it out.

It hurts b/c my brother is a cool person who deserves a basic level of respect.  When someone says it, since its become so common, I don’t always jump on them, but my opinion is lowered. 

Personally, I have to police my use of “gypped”.  I truly never made the connection to Gypsies as a child, doubt I even spelled it properly, but now that I know better I do my best to avoid it.

That’s the real difference.  When someone says “DON’T SAY THAT!” for points, it’s meaningless.  When someone says “I’ll say whatever I want and it only means what I say it does” s/he’s being Humpty Dumpty.  When someone says something ignorant and learns why it’s offensive and cares enough to change that’s when everyone wins.

More to post point.  “Trigger warnings” have a place.  I think everyone should know about triggers, but I also think that they can stifle commentary.  It’s a good thing that some of that commentary is stifled; but I don’t think Pandagon is an unwelcoming place for people who have been sexually assaulted.

Maybe it is for some.  I’m willing to learn.  But I think Amanda’s given good reasons for why her blog is set up the way it is.

Comment #218: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/16  at  12:42 PM

Ms Kate,

I think he was just talking about the pronunciation and the commonality of the word in stereotypical Bahston speech; but that’s very interesting to know, so I also wanted to thank you for the comment.

Comment #219: Auguste  on  06/16  at  12:44 PM

Personally, I have to police my use of “gypped”.  I truly never made the connection to Gypsies as a child, doubt I even spelled it properly, but now that I know better I do my best to avoid it.

I’ve tried to drop ‘gypped’ from my vocabulary too.  I came to the conclusion on this particular issue that for certain ethnic groups with lots of publicity but relatively few members, the basic feeling by most Americans is that they’re actually not real:  that Gypsies/Roma are viewed as somewhere between vampires and Visigoths.  Made up villains in fairy tales, or something that used to exist in the Old Timey Days, but doesn’t any more.  I know that I was relatively old (high school, maybe) before I actually realized that there were still Gypsies outside of novels.

I think other groups also suffer from this:  Native Americans both in the US but especially outside the United States, and maybe even Jews in some settings.

Comment #220: Billingham  on  06/16  at  12:48 PM

”(though the fact that it’s used by men about other men shows that it’s certainly not a gendered term.)”

Huh?  I’ve never heard it used between men without it implicitly comparing some other guy to a woman, and therefore on a lower plane.  To me that makes it about as gendered as you can get…

Comment #221: MikeEss  on  06/16  at  12:53 PM

August, yeah, I know - but there is a fair bit of truth to it here and in other large East coast cities where lead paint, leaded gasolene, asenic used as pesticide and fumigant, coal-fired power plants in crowded neighborhoods added up to a lot of people cognitive deficits.

Pretty scary stuff.

I once read that the person with downs syndrome who played Corky in Life Goes On has a sufficiently high IQ that he is technically retarded.  The same is true of a local woman with down syndrome who recently graduated high school, has an IQ of 95, and is attending college.  Early poor prognosis of down syndrome children may have been the result of poor antinatal care, specifically oxygen deprivation from the associated heart defects.

Comment #222: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  01:01 PM

“(though the fact that it’s used by men about other men shows that it’s certainly not a gendered term.)”

Huh?  I’ve never heard it used between men without it implicitly comparing some other guy to a woman, and therefore on a lower plane.  To me that makes it about as gendered as you can get…

Evidently my brain fizzled somewhere between deciding whether to write “certainly a gendered term” and “certainly not an ungendered term.”  Of course I mean that it’s gendered, intensely, by the fact that it’s almost exclusively used by men to reinforce patriarchy.  Doh.

Comment #223: Billingham  on  06/16  at  01:03 PM

I’ll just register thanks for the irreverent and critical (in the academic sense of rigorously dissecting people’s logic and rhetoric, feelings be damned) culture at Pandagon.

The wonderful irony of blog that emphasizes wit, logic, and the deconstruction of tropes is that it is one of the more emotionally honest venues out there. And it recognizes the diversity of personality types. Some of us are cantankerous or spiny characters, or really catty gays, or worst of all, Texans. A PC regime, however well-intentioned, would smother all this color and spice, and render the on-line equivalent of an all-oatmeal diet.

This blog (read: mostly Amanda, mostly about religion) infuriates me on occasion, but it never bores. Not being boring is a big deal. It means that you might change someone’s mind sometimes.

Comment #224: wapsie  on  06/16  at  01:06 PM

In re: “lame”

Doesn’t it matter to some degree whether the word being used as a pejorative is a reference to a) an identity or not, and b) to something that is considered, for lack of a better word, bad?

That’s why for me, things like lame and idiot fall into a different category than using “that’s so gay” or “she’s a cunt” or “jewing someone down on the price.”

When we call something morally bankrupt, we aren’t declaring that those who are in financial trouble are inherently inferior, but that bankruptcy is a bad thing, all things considered.

When we call something a lame idea, or a lame production, we aren’t implying that people dealing with mobility issues are subhuman or evil, but that not being able to move freely is less than ideal. That, frankly, it sucks.

But, for contrast, calling a man a pussy is saying that being, or having a pussy is inherently bad. Calling something stupid “so gay” is assuming agreement that being gay is a bad thing.

That Jews are cheap. That women are weak. That African Americans are lazy, and so on.

I’m willing to state that being gay is an objective good, not inherently better than being straight, but certainly not in any way bad. Similarly, being a woman, being Jewish, and so on.

I’m not willing to state that, all things being equal, being in a wheelchair is a good thing. That someone with medical or mobility issues has, and deserves, all the dignity that every other person has, yes. For me, that goes without saying, which means it needs to get said whenever necessary.

The difference lies to some degree in the fact that saying someone is being idiotic is implying that they have the ability to behave as though they were a thinking functioning adult. Calling a man a pussy is saying that he has the ability to act as though he wasn’t a woman. Calling something gay implies that it had the ability to appear fully heterosexual.

There’s a difference. It doesn’t mean that there’s a need to use any particular phrase, but there is a difference.

Comment #225: Lymis  on  06/16  at  01:07 PM

Sorry, that should have read “NOT” technically retarded.

Comment #226: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  01:09 PM

So LitBrit agrees with Piator. Boy, does that speak volumes. Liss defended you and hasn’t said anything bad about you; you and Konagod and whoever else can’t say enough shit about her.

And I see Gracchus has moved on from Muslim-bashing to other things:

Sorry, but no: “flounce” is a gender-freighted term, and it can’t be used with such casual disregard for those of both genders who’ve been accused of hysterics. “Walk away”? Nope: ableist and ageist—you’re indicating your privilege over those who can’t walk. And I could keep going—for any term, I can find an aggrieved party to object.

  Flounce is to imply hysteria and hysteria literally refers to a wandering uterus that wants a baby. So, yeah, Gracchus, you’re an asshole. Again.

  People bitching about Liss seem to forget that they demand she keep up the blog, and has in fact sacrified a great deal for it. Oh, wait, that’s right; you guys don’t have to be perfect, but you sure as hell get to demand it of her.

Comment #227: ginmar  on  06/16  at  01:52 PM

“not being able to move freely is less than ideal. That, frankly, it sucks… I’m not willing to state that, all things being equal, being in a wheelchair is a good thing. “

Yeah, fine, neither am I. But try looking at it this way—maybe people who can’t move freely don’t appreciate their lives being your go-to metaphor for things that suck?

And maybe, since people have been historically all-too-willing to relieve disabled people of the burden of having to live through all that suckiness, they’ve got a point that the endless appropriation of their lives as an incredibly common symbol for awfulness have real, concrete, and evil ramifications for their lives.

Comment #228: Mandolin  on  06/16  at  02:09 PM

And I see Gracchus has moved on from Muslim-bashing to other things:

Wait, before I was an anti-Arab racist ... now I’m a Muslim-basher? At least I understand the distinction between cultural differences, religious differences, and (for what little they’re worth) genetic/racial differences.

Flounce is to imply hysteria and hysteria literally refers to a wandering uterus that wants a baby. So, yeah, Gracchus, you’re an asshole. Again.

Um, it was EGhead used the term, which is indeed gender-weighted—I’ve never heard the term applied to a straight male’s behaviour, but only to that of women and homosexual men, based on exactly the myths you describe.

My point was that, at a place like SV, even a non-malicious slip by someone as PC as EGhead can derail a conversation into a series of empty “gotchas.”

Comment #229: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  02:20 PM

Does the way you label the trigger warning make any difference at all?  I kind of like the idea of a label like “Warning: Extremely disturbing material related to [rape, violence, partner abuse] behind the fold,” because it gives people who might be triggered a heads-up, but it also recognizes that all kinds of people might be disturbed by that content, and that a PTSD-style trigger isn’t the only reason someone might be disturbed.  It thus avoids the two traps of a) assuming survivors are uniquely broken and all have the same ‘special’ psychological needs, not like ‘normal’ people; and b) sending the message that content relating to these issues is primarily of interest only to a select group of survivors.  I’m not saying such a warning would be necessary, but it seems to at least attempt to address the concerns of a larger group of people.

So many of these feminist in-fights seem to me to be the result of the patriarchal culture sending conflicting messages—when the messages conflict, you can’t fight all of them without seeming contradictory yourself.  So the culture says “Rape isn’t so bad—most women who say they’ve been raped are probably just exaggerating anyway, or were asking for it, so what are you so upset about?” and feminists respond by saying, “Actually, rape IS really bad and really serious, and we’ll explain why” and the culture ALSO says “Rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman and makes her irredeemably broken and unable to have a normal life,” and another group of feminists responds by saying “Actually, rape victims are still full-fledged human beings.  They still have lives they care about and participate in society just like anybody else.”  When the most extreme arguers against the first offensively sexist message come up against the most extreme arguers against the second offensively sexist message, it can look like they violently disagree, just because the messages they’re arguing against are themselves contradictory.  Feminists and other activist groups have the burden of trying to have a coherent and consistent philosophy behind their movements, while the larger culture has no such burden: they don’t care how inconsistent their messages are, as long as they serve to keep women (or any other oppressed group) down.

Comment #230: Kathleen F.  on  06/16  at  02:32 PM

I think he was just talking about the pronunciation and the commonality of the word in stereotypical Bahston speech

Yes, because a) it is such a good word for illustrating / exaggerating Boston speech patterns, and 2) a *lot* of people in Boston use the word, in my experience (I lived up there for four years).

That’s all.

Comment #231: spence-bob  on  06/16  at  02:32 PM

That’s because most feminist blogs are trolled, constantly and relentlessly, by people who ARE acting in bad faith.

And yet that doesn’t happen constantly and relentlessly on this feminist blog. And there’s a reason for that—one that has little to do with demonstrating feminist cred.

Steve Gilliard, who ran a similarly open-policy blog, put it this way: “trolls can’t hang here.” It wasn’t a statement of policy, but a statement of fact: bad-faith trolls would be—constantly and relentlessly—called on their obvious BS by regulars and laughed out of the room. Steve kept a couple of Dana-style pets around for amusement, but most of the others didn’t last a week. Once in a great while you’d get a troll who was so aggressively stupid or hateful that he didn’t get the message, but inevitably he’d slip up and break one of the very few rules set up by Steve and get himself banned.

It’s important to bear in mind that Steve, a pro-labour liberal who happened to be African-American and who wasn’t afraid to go beyond MSM propriety (see his stuff on Michael Steele), drew more than his share of right-wing trolls to his blog. It’s also important to note that he encouraged and relished healthy debate amongst the commenters—Steve had strong opinions, but the News Blog was not intended to be an echo chamber for them.

Setting up this kind of liberal (in its non-political sense) atmosphere takes a lot more work and talent than is involved in banning and posting “trigger warnings” and implementing things like “disemvowelling” and naughty word lists. The most effective way to keep childish people away is to build a community aimed at treating adults who want to debate in good faith like ... well ... adults who want to debate in good faith.

I understand, though, that there are on-line communities for adults who are particularly sensitive and vulnerable. I have no problem with those sites taking a less than liberal line on comments, but I don’t find the conversations there as interesting or as allowing of diverse opinion as the ones here.

Comment #232: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  02:33 PM

chingona:

And I don’t agree with everything EGhead said, his/her treatment here doesn’t exactly speak well for the supposed openness to debate here.

Compared to where? She got her three comments, she was listened to, her points were addressed, she was treated as though she was talking in good faith

Mandolin, if anything Alas goes the other way WRT dissent—-certainly people who disagree with posters aren’t treated like Hoggish Greedly. But this is nigh derailment; this would be a fascinating conversation to have at Alas vis-a-vis Alas, here I’ll just say there’s nothing wrong with saying “please do not comment unless you accept the basic dignity, equality, and inherent worth of all people” as long as you assume people do so until evidence to the contrary accumulates.

It sucks that sometimes people are assumed to be in bad faith when they are just ignorant, but the behavior isn’t occurring in a void. It’s occurring because of the intolerably high levels of hatred directed toward most internet feminist sites.

That’s true, and it’s to forget if you’re not experiencing it. But I’m talking as much about commenters as posters. There was a specific incident a few months ago in which someone made a factual error about trans people and was treated like a LA morning drive-time radio host, with no one seeming to consider the possibility that she genuinely didn’t know any better. And why should they? They all did. And I’m not sure that ban be explained as “well, there’s a lot of hatred.” It’s very easy to say “well, we allow differences of opinion, just not attacks” but then, without really noticing, you uncnsciously recast differences of opinion as attacks—-and then, when you get called on it, point to some minor instance when two commenters weren’t in lockstep.

Comment #233: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/16  at  02:38 PM

“Warning: Extremely disturbing material related to [rape, violence, partner abuse] behind the fold,”

Is there material related to [rape, violence, partner abuse] that isn’t disturbing? I don’t have PTSD-type triggers on the topic, but even the dry stats in these matters give me the creeps, and I consider them to be very conservative estimates of what’s really going on.

A good compromise to this whole trigger-warning business might be to make the article subject tags (in this case “Blogging” and “Feminism”) more prominent, so those who are triggered know to avoid the article. If they wanted to get fancy, they could allow registered users to screen out articles with certain tags. But again, that kind of action is up to the site owners—I’m fine with the blog as it is.

Comment #234: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  02:41 PM

Ginmar, people bitching about Melissa are mostly people who have stopped reading Shakesville and think that she should quit blogging and get a real job.

Comment #235: Rachel,II  on  06/16  at  02:42 PM

Compared to where? She got her three comments, she was listened to, her points were addressed, she was treated as though she was talking in good faith

And, most importantly, she left on her own terms, without any urging from the blog’s owners or visitors. At SV, dissenting opinions usually get you banned.

Comment #236: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  02:44 PM

My take:

I’ve been trying to cut “lame” out of my vocabulary. It’s actually really tough because it, like “dumb” are words I didn’t know even meant anything other other than “uncool” and “stupid” until I was nearly an adult. But I realise that I propably should, just as, at age 15 or so, I stopped calling things “gay” because I had half a brain and it never made sense to me why that meant bad.

I think “lame” is a bit different from a lot of oppresive language, though, because most people who use it honeslty don’t mean it maliciously. Nobody calls somebody a bitch non-maliciously. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t make an effort to be polite, but it isn’t exactly hate speech, it’s just rude and (literally) ignorant. Ignorance is, IMHO, excusable. Willful ignorance isn’t, which is why calling people on it is good, but getting all BLOGDRAMAOMG!!!1 about it is a waste of everyone’s time.

Personally, I think Amanda’s attitude towards the “triggering” thing is pretty reasonable. Critics of it could actually point to an instance where it was not clear from the title, or the first paragraph or two that it would relate to potentially triggering subjects or stop accusing her of laziness. The fact that Amanda chooses not to use a term she doesn’t like shouldn’t be the issue - the issue is whether Pandagon is functionally accessible, not whether it pays lip service to popular ideas about what makes a blog accessible.

Comment #237: HonestB  on  06/16  at  02:59 PM

I think the most important message here is read and comment where you’re comfortable, realizing not every place can be equally comfortable for everyone.

This is a comfortable place for me; the contributors cut people slack as long as they’re commenting with good will. If some readers want a cozier part of the blogosphere, it’s there to be found.

Comment #238: Hector B.  on  06/16  at  03:14 PM

People bitching about Liss seem to forget that they demand she keep up the blog, and has in fact sacrified a great deal for it. Oh, wait, that’s right; you guys don’t have to be perfect, but you sure as hell get to demand it of her.

She seems to demand perfection of herself!  Honestly I wish she wouldn’t.  Her commitment to the Safe Space idea is commendable but it’s so all-encompassing, to the point where it seems like it’s leading to more frustration and more stress, not less!  Where that leads is threads like the one where she expressed hope in Obama and got dogpiled on her own blog, or the one where she talked about her new shoes and got lectured about how she was supporting Nike’s sweatshop labor.  It’s hard to out-purist the purest online purists.  It doesn’t need to be that way.  But since most suggestions, even or especially the well-meant ones, are treated as More Work, it seems like it’s a slowly-accelerating vicious cycle.

Comment #239: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  03:18 PM

I kind of like the idea of a label like “Warning: Extremely disturbing material related to [rape, violence, partner abuse] behind the fold,” because it gives people who might be triggered a heads-up, but it also recognizes that all kinds of people might be disturbed by that content, and that a PTSD-style trigger isn’t the only reason someone might be disturbed.

The problem with warnings like that is they may be written as warnings, but they are processed as titillation.  Think of the way that 50s horror movies would be sold by having women dressed as nurses in the lobby to imply that what you’re about to see is that scary.  I have to watch a lot of TV shows peddling sex scares for my podcast, and they’re pretty obviously trying to titillate, and the warning feeds that.

Presenting something straightforwardly works best for me.  I’m really allergic to anything that smacks of exploitation, which is hard to avoid when talking about some of these issues.

Comment #240: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/16  at  03:18 PM

“And yet that doesn’t happen constantly and relentlessly on this feminist blog. And there’s a reason for that—one that has little to do with demonstrating feminist cred.”

Um. It does happen here. You want to take a look at what their straight-into-mod/spam comments look like?

Anyway, there are other reasons for why group dynamics at Alas are different than here, but… yeah, that’s a big one.

Comment #241: Mandolin  on  06/16  at  03:34 PM

“And I’m not sure that ban be explained as “well, there’s a lot of hatred.” It’s very easy to say “well, we allow differences of opinion, just not attacks” but then, without really noticing, you uncnsciously recast differences of opinion as attacks—-and then, when you get called on it, point to some minor instance when two commenters weren’t in lockstep.”

Yes, I hear you about times where moderation can cross the line. I’m sorry; I didn’t meant o suggest that never happens.

Comment #242: Mandolin  on  06/16  at  03:37 PM

Um. It does happen here. You want to take a look at what their straight-into-mod/spam comments look like?

I’ve seen some truly obnoxious ones before they were caught, but those will get banned/deleted at any blog/bbs that has a few basic rules (e.g. no personal threats, no spam). I’m not saying that a free-for-all cesspool like f*ckedcompany is a good thing. Is there a way a non-site-owner is able to see the stuff that admins like yourself have access to? Any stats on bannings/comment deletions? It would be interesting to quantify how much effort the Pandagon owners put into policing the comments.

Comment #243: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  04:05 PM

Because I shouldn’t use the word “cripple” at all?

Don’t go into construction.  A cripple wall is a short wall that goes between the foundation and the floor joists.  “Cripple” by itself is the vertical support that holds up the header in any kind of opening (door or window) of a load bearing wall.  Oh, it has another name: a jack stud.  Consider the gender implication of that.

But seriously…

As several people have stated, words change their meaning and their implications, not all at the same rate, and sometimes in context there is no offensiveness at all meant because the word doesn’t mean what the person interpreting the word thinks it means.  I’ll give you a good example from my specialty that caused me a headache on more than one occasion when someone not knowing the context I was using said word in made an assumption as to what I was talking about.  The name of the geological structure created when a sheet of intrusive magma cuts across existing strata is, depending on which side of the Atlantic you’re on and whether you use traditional spelling or not, is a “dyke” or a “dike”.  (This is, of course, in addition to the more familiar usage for something like a dam or levee.)

Now, whatever the origin of the word was that has been used as a slur against lesbians, and there are several theories, it’s pretty clear that it’s etymology has nothing whatsoever with that of the word that I used above, any more that when I say “I set the table” I’m referring to some ancient Egyptian deity.
The two words are spelled the same and pronounced the same, but they are two different words with two different meanings.  One is a slur, one is a technical description.

Yes, I know that some people will deliberately use the technical term in such a way as to clearly be using it as a double entendre, either as a joke or to be deliberately offensive (or just an asshole).  I’ve done this myself for amusement when I saw someone overhear me use the word talking to a (female) geologist, in a professional discussion, and apparently think I was insulting her or something, whereupon I started improvising a rambling discourse that used the words “bedding”, “thrusting”, “orogenic zone” and a slurred pronunciation of “fuchsite” and “spudomene” (which isn’t a dirty word but sure, in the right context, can sound like one).  As far as I was concerned at the time, said person was outraged at me already due to their own ignorance, so I might as well have fun with it.  (The geologist didn’t know what the hell I was going on about.)

It’s all context.  “Niggardly”, to use a classic example, in itself isn’t offensive in the least.  Nevertheless, if I saw someone going around pointedly using it, I would assume that said person was deliberately trying to jerk people around either for their own amusement or as a way to imply “n***er” without actually saying it, simply because there are other words such as “cheap” that gets the same implication across as the dictionary definition of “niggardly” with minimal chance of someone making a mistake as to what the word meant.  I know what the word actually means and am fully capable of using it as it’s supposed to be, I just choose not to because it isn’t a necessary word to get my point across, unlike the aforementioned “dyke/dike”.

Dyke, gay, queer, homo, cock, tit, chink, among many others, all have meanings other than as slurs, so you can’t automatically take offense at them until you know the context they’re used.  I’ve heard people pick up “homo milk” in stores, due to the printing used on some packaging as an abbreviation for “homogenized, for instance.

Words like “n***er” and “k*ke”, on the other hand, don’t have any other meaning in English other than what everyone knows what they mean.  There’s no context in which they can be used innocently.

Comment #244: KeithM  on  06/16  at  04:18 PM

Dear Eggiwegg:

Why not make your own blog with your own rules instead of whining that someone else isn’t doing it your way, which of course is the one true way?

I love this freakin post!  This is the stuff I have been saying for months! Enough with the ridiculous, sanctimonious censorship everywhere. I’ve ditched several websites that have chosen to run their comments section like that. I can’t be bothered with all the holier than thou finger pointing and such.

Comment #245: Creepy Doll  on  06/16  at  04:48 PM

Where that leads is threads like the one where [McEwan] expressed hope in Obama and got dogpiled on her own blog,

For a while last year, Shakesville was a support group for diehard Hillary backers. Having the blogmistress say anything favorable to Obama must have hurt the diehards.

It’s hard to out-purist the purest online purists.

Did you know shelter dogs were a feminist issue? I learned that a couple of years ago, when hordes jumped on Jessica Valenti after she announced she was getting a well-bred puppy.

Comment #246: Hector B.  on  06/16  at  04:51 PM

Chingona, I just keep wanting to plus one you. Amanda has the right to blog any way she wants, and we all have the right to read or not read anyone we want, but one thing I do not like about the generalized Blog Dynamic is the bit where disagreeing with the Blogger leads to a commenter pile-on. I mean, I enjoy watching it go down when the premise of the disagreement is “Commenter 1 thinks women are just here to make more babies for Jesus, Amanda thinks women are people”. But this here is not an argument with two sides, so I was alarmed to see so many people rushing to Amanda’s side, air quotes.

I tried to stop using the word lame when suddenly many of my internet conversations involved someone who I think the world of who uses a wheelchair. I don’t know if it bothers her, but suddenly it started to bother me. I get around it by being more specific, like “That person has never had an original thought in his life”, or “My god, they cannot plan for shit”, or “If he tries any harder with that haircut he’ll spontaneously combust from his own hipness.” Greater specificity in my insults are just one benefit.

I actually have a parent who tried to make us stop saying “sucks” because it was 1) obscene 2) either homophobic or misogynistic, depending on how you think about it. Did not stick, though I feel like “fucking disappointing” is a better term than “sucks”. Because few things are more banally depressing than disappointing fucking?

Comment #247: purpleshoes  on  06/16  at  05:43 PM

Compared to where? She got her three comments, she was listened to, her points were addressed, she was treated as though she was talking in good faith

I think it’s that last bit that we’ll have to agree to disagree about. I read the exchange one way. Other people read it another way. I’m clearly the minority opinion.

I actually have no problem with the original post. Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes I’m in a Pandagon sort of mood and sometimes I’m not, and I go elsewhere.

Where I find myself in disagreement with some of these comments is the idea that Pandagon has no issues or problematic dynamics around policing and enforcing just because they have different standards than a place like Shakesville. I guess I don’t consider banning to be the be-all, end-all of blog community policing. Most of what went on at Shakesville was dog-piling by commenters, not actual banning. Same thing happens here, just around a different set of issues. I mean, recently there was a 200-plus comment thread about how it’s mean and un-feminist to subject wearing make-up to feminist analysis.

Blogs tend to lead to people not taking others in good faith, jumping to conclusions, and attacks. It’s happened to me here and at Shakesville and elsewhere, and I’ve participated in it as well (here and elsewhere). I’ve also seen most of the people complaining about bullying engage in bullying at one point or another.

There’s a lot of great things about blogs and on-line communities, but they all have some version of this downside. It’s just the details that are different.

Comment #248: chingona  on  06/16  at  05:47 PM

Thanks, purpleshoes. I was feeling a bit put out that Ms. Kate threw me under the bus after I stood up for her having issues with the chicken pox vaccine. wink

Comment #249: chingona  on  06/16  at  05:50 PM

Yeah, Rachel, since when is it your fucking business what Liss McEwan does for a living? Goddam! Go read a different fuckin’ blog, for fuck’s sake.

Gracchus, you’re just an asshole. Bitch, moan, bitch, don’t pull that cultural crap on me. You said vile things about Iraqis. Vile, hateful shit. Whoops, sorry, more vile shit that seemed right up your alley? Sorry about that. As much as I can be.

Hershele, way to go with the lie about Hillary. God forbid anybody say something you don’t agree with.  And she runs her blog in a way that you don’t agree with—-the subject matter, the outlook…the horror!

So, tell me, how does all this bullshit square with a pro-choice outlook? Can’t criticize somebody’s child-having choices, but boy do people love to carve up a woman who does shit they don’t agree with.  Or don’t those choices get respected? How, exactly, are you guys any different from the trolls who show up and harass her and want to wipe her from the Internet? You’re just as appalled at her as them, you just think you have a handy-dandy new fangled excuse.

Comment #250: ginmar  on  06/16  at  06:10 PM

Gracchus, you’re just an asshole. Bitch, moan, bitch, don’t pull that cultural crap on me. You said vile things about Iraqis. Vile, hateful shit. Whoops, sorry, more vile shit that seemed right up your alley? Sorry about that. As much as I can be.

No, I compared cultures unfortunate enough to still be dominated by warlords and priests unfavourably with secular Enlightenment cultures. Unlike the neoCons, I don’t claim the latter is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I believe it was or always will be that way in the industrialised West. As I noted in the earlier thread, I’m just not a cultural relativist, and rather enjoy things like freedom of the press and equal rights for women and rule of law for all citizens. If that makes me an arsehole in your book, so be it.

Also I take issue with your use of the word “bitch”—not because it’s a naughty word, nor because it’s lazy, sexist slang for “complaining,” but because I wasn’t complaining, just pointing out that a distinction does exist between race, culture, and religion (and pointing out that EGhead used the gender-freighted term “flounce,” not I).

I suppose I’d be within my rights to complain about your accusations of misogyny and racism, but you haven’t offered any substantive evidence for either claim. If you like, feel free to quote some of the “vile, hateful shit” you claim I said about Iraqis. And by “quote” I mean go back to the thread in question (or indeed any thread on Iraq) and re-post my words here, in full and in context. If you don’t feel like doing that, I’m certainly willing to stand on my general reputation around here.

How, exactly, are you guys any different from the trolls who show up and harass her and want to wipe her from the Internet?

Well, I don’t bother with her site at all, for the reasons I described above. That’s not a call for her to close the site down, nor is it a call for her to change her policies or the tone of her site.

Comment #251: Gracchus.  on  06/16  at  06:56 PM

I love the “When that blog’s commenters pile on, its evil. When we do, its noble, though. Cuz we do it totally differently somehow” rationalization going on. Its about as convincing as “but I wanna” is as a defense against complaints about using offensive language.

Comment #252: BStu  on  06/16  at  07:05 PM

Ticky, you are so brave. Thank you for sharing that.

I’m 100% on EGhead’s side that Amanda’s choices are alienating and perhaps unfair. It sucks that (if?) s/he or anyone else has troubles that make this place upsetting.

But you don’t have a right to equal access to snarky blog posts and comments.

You have an equal access right to gainful employment, protection under the law, and all sorts of other stuff which our fucked up culture denies you—and, the varying degrees, most everyone. We’re working on it.

And it sucks that we’re having trouble dialogging around shit that’s as serious as rape culture.
ha on 06/16 at 12:02 AM

This.  Sometimes Amanda, and some of the commenters here, tend to say shit that’s pretty harsh and insensitive.  I don’t appreciate it.  I don’t appreciate the sentiment that it’s demeaning to be warned when something that is a pretty common trigger is being discussed - rape survivors are going to be a pretty large niche reading this sort of thing, and it’s not unreasonable to think that maybe warning before going into graphic depictions of assault is a good idea since there is a large group of them. 

However, it’s her blog.  I like her posts - a lot.  I like the writing style, and nothing here has triggered me and, if it did, I would simply move on, take a deep breath, and deal with it.  I like the commenters, and I like that it’s not heavily policed.  I like that it’s vulgar and unapologetic, even when I disagree.  I like that any policing that may or may not need to be done is done without censorship.  I like it here, it’s not my blog, and I’m not going to suddenly decide that Amanda’s dislike for trigger warnings means that her lack of them bothers me any more than I suddenly realized that Twisty’s usage of the word “cunt” made her not a feminist (it bothered me as well but, I’m sorry, does not a closet misogynist make).  It’s not true.  We’re all individuals and are going to disagree on shit, but if I’m that offended I could go read another blog, when, really, this is the only blog I read regularly (Feministe coming in close second and Renee’s coming in third).  I appreciate this community, and I can leave anytime I want.

I’m not saying that it’s wrong to say that you disagree with her.  I’m just saying that that’s the beauty of Pandagon - that you can do that.

Comment #253: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/16  at  07:20 PM

ginmar:

Hershele, way to go with the lie about Hillary.

??? Is it possible you are misattributing someone else’s comment to me inadvertantly? I’ve done that, myself, when replying to multiple comment at once.

Comment #254: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/16  at  07:26 PM

People bitching about Liss seem to forget that they demand she keep up the blog, and has in fact sacrified a great deal for it. Oh, wait, that’s right; you guys don’t have to be perfect, but you sure as hell get to demand it of her.

While I’m certainly not in the group singled out here, I’d like to point out what several people have said in the thread (whose points you kind of responded to if ad hominems count as responses) - many of the complaints about the ridiculous atmosphere in the comment threads over at Shakesville have in fact come from people who don’t make any demands on Melissa whatsoever. I’m pointing this out to you because you’re trying to play the lets-make-this-personal game, and quite frankly I think that’s silly. I don’t have any personal issues with you or Melissa, but I also don’t want to let this statement stand because it feeds the blogger-martyrdom complex that’s destroyed some of my favourite blogs that I actually do miss. These blog war things kind of suck for someone like me (or propably you, too), who’s interested in reading good content written by talented people, not watching talented people totally lose it over percieved slights, ridiculous expectations and the simple fact that the internet is full of jerks.

If you have a blog, it’s on you to maintain it. Nobody “demands” you keep it up, and if people give you shit for not keeping to a posting schedule, that’s on them, not you.

Do I blame people for not having a thick enough skin to do the blogging thing? Of course not, the sheer amount of hate out there is hard to ignore, and I think it propably takes a specific type of person to just keep going with it, but nonetheless, the best bloggers are neccesarily thick-skinned, because trying to be everything to everyone is a futile endeavor. Writing for an audience is a neccesarily public endeavor that involves putting yourself out there - there’s no magic comment policy that will change that aspect of it. I imagine it’s very easy to think, when you’re writing for an audience, that you have to be everything to everybody, but that doesn’t mean you actually have to, or that the demands some jerk on the internet makes of you ought to be treated as valid demands.

So I guess I can sum up my position with: I don’t care about the shakesville situation specifically since I’m not a regular reader over there, but I do think that in general we need to work towards a consensus that reduces the amount of blog drama, because blog drama is a big pointless waste of time (even, and perhaps even especially, when what sets it off is valid) that lowers the general level of discourse.

Comment #255: HonestB  on  06/16  at  07:45 PM

I love the “When that blog’s commenters pile on, its evil. When we do, its noble, though. Cuz we do it totally differently somehow” rationalization going on. Its about as convincing as “but I wanna” is as a defense against complaints about using offensive language.

BStu, I think that it’s one of those “difference in degree becomes a difference in kind” deals.  People on Pandagon say things that others disagree with all the time; sometimes they’re rebutted, sometimes they’re flamed, sometimes by one, sometimes by many ... and sometimes they’re defended as to either form or content, sometimes their views are refined or clarified, (“I think that what X meant to say was ...”), even where the statement is “a bit much”. 

I can’t say that I ever saw that on Shakesville; group swarmings and angry demands for conformity were more the norm.  Whether those responses were merited or not—there’s nothing wrong with a demand for conforming to “don’t be a swine”, for example—I simply don’t see the sort of multiplicity of thought or openness to a feminist male view (or view of males)* that differs however slightly from the norm, or the willingness to defend strangers there that we do here.  The range of what was accepted as open for discussion is much narrower over there; whether you like that or you don’t it’s simply Just So.  I like the blog, and I respect McEwan (I posited her as a much more worthy occupant of the “female liberal” seat at the NYT, for example) but it is simply a different community, and a much more closed and demanding one.

* - Some of the lashing-back at The Portly Dyke when she wrote a kind post on male emotion was really shocking, for example.

Comment #256: seeker6079  on  06/16  at  07:52 PM

Put a different way:
At Pandagon they may pile on, but it’s based on “what you say is SHIT! and here’s why!”, which is ferocious, fun, and often very, very right.  At Shakesville, however, it’s based on “you don’t even have a right to say that here”.

I like here better: it’s a feminist space and an egalitarian space as given to fairness and openness as it is to its ideals; Shakesville is a rather than a woman’s feminist space, defined as “safe”, with a much narrower scope for what is acceptable in debate, and who can do the debating.  That’s their thing, this is ours.  No bads either way.

Comment #257: seeker6079  on  06/16  at  07:57 PM

I really appreciated Shakesville during the campaign, as it was really annoying to see so many blog communities polarize in the primary.  They happily stayed out of the fray, which mostly meant that people who were strong Obama shooed Hillary supporters there. 

Personally, I voted Obama, but mostly because I wanted the primary season extended and I wasn’t sure he would do as well on super tuesday.  And yet, because I preferred the more even or feminist side that was on Shakes’ I was often tarred as some sort of die-hard Hillary Republican.  Ugh.

Anyhow, I still haven’t seen anyone give me examples of pejorative use of ‘lame’ or replacement language, which really doesn’t make me feel educated so much as put upon.  Is someone trying to reclaim it, ala gay, queer, dyke?  Is it easily replaceable like niggardly?  Does it have no other place like kike or hadji?

Comment #258: Crissa  on  06/16  at  07:59 PM

Ginmar, I haven’t read Shakesville since that post where she said we had to pay her for the privilege of sitting around all day to post pictures of her cats.  I don’t take issue with what she does for a living because she doesn’t make a living.  I do take issue with her perversion of feminism and accusing readers of devaluing women’s work by not giving her the money we earn at our jobs.  I really can’t say this any clearer.  I don’t read Shakesville and I only care what happens there insomuch as it perverts the concept of feminism and, hell, basic human decency:  didn’t someone self-injure over the cult-like setting over there lately?

Comment #259: Rachel,II  on  06/16  at  08:02 PM

Rachel,II:

Yes.

Comment #260: XtinaS  on  06/16  at  08:17 PM

Thank you, I thought so!  I couldn’t remember where I found that!

Comment #261: Rachel,II  on  06/16  at  08:30 PM

The pile on here is completely uncalled for. A person made three posts, and they are STILL being dragged through the mud over it with the lynch mob dragging any bystanders into their comment war. I’m sorry, but I see NO difference in kind or degree with piling on I’ve seen at Shakesville. Well, except for the undercurrent of hypocracy here. “It is completely inappropriate for you to say that we should say when things are inappropriate. We don’t do that here.”

What is clear is that people are using this thread to air their grievances with SV which seems to miss significant parts of Amanda’s original post. EGhead’s challenge and Amanda’s uncompromising retort made for a valuable and enlightening discussion. The pile-on? Not so much.

Comment #262: BStu  on  06/16  at  08:33 PM

Sorry, BStu, but I have genuinely lost track of which person you are talking about when you refer to the person with the three posts.  A little help?  Much obliged.

Comment #263: seeker6079  on  06/16  at  08:46 PM

seeker,

BStu means EGHead, which, in fairness to the other commenters, I sort of revived by making a snarky comment about the reaction to EGHead, so some of the piling on was responding to me but still criticizing EGHead.

Comment #264: chingona  on  06/16  at  09:09 PM

Bstu, if you posted that at SV, you’d already have read a comment telling you how racist it is to use the term lynch mob.

Comment #265: maurinsky  on  06/16  at  09:29 PM

Well then, how about a Merrill Lynch mob?  Any takers?

Comment #266: Ms Kate  on  06/16  at  09:37 PM

I’m not convinced you really revived it, chingona. What really demonstrated the pile on to me was when I was roped into defining my position on EGhead after making a completely unrelated post 30 comments AFTER EGhead made their final contribution to the discussion. That sort of ideological card check in the service of a comment pile-on still strikes me as ironic coming from a crowd who keep justifying themselves by claiming to be fighting ideological card checks and comment pile-on’s. I know that was one person, but the attitude seems representative, especially in light of the backlash pile-on that ensued against anyone not towing a party line that I don’t the PARTY involved ever even asked for.

Comment #267: BStu  on  06/16  at  09:46 PM

Thanks, chingona.  I lost track, there.

Comment #268: seeker6079  on  06/16  at  09:50 PM

Like I said, its very clear that many commentators are just using this post as an excuse to whine about another blog. Frankly, its boring as all get out since all of the complaints seem to revolve around crying about how humorless liberals are.

Comment #269: BStu  on  06/16  at  09:54 PM

Mandolin posted some of what I wanted to say about the word “crazy”

>(Which is why I still use the words ‘crazy’ and ‘insane’—I suffer from depression and anxiety, so I think I get a say in whether those words are okay, in a way that I don’t particularly need to have a say about ‘lame.’)

but I wanted to expand on it. I mostly lurk in Shakesville, but there’s a point where I really regret not commenting. It’s been long enough that I don’t even remember if it was in a post itself or a comment thread. In it, someone said that the word “crazy” shouldn’t be used because it was demeaning to the mentally ill. And I just about hit the roof (in a silent, cowardly way.) I’ve dealt with mental health issues my entire life and right now have a list of prescriptions as long as your arm and I will be damned if I let someone asshole (a) take very useful word that covers a variety of meaning away from me and writers and artists I like and (b) think that my mental illness makes me unable to understand nuance at all. I know what “crazy” means and I know what “mental illness” means, and to imply the two are one and the same is much more insulting than using this c-word to in the far place.

I remember when I went to college counseling. I said to the therapist that “Sometimes you’re just going to tell me ‘that’s crazy, think about it for a second,’” and she responded “[Eugene], I will never call you crazy.” I immediately understood that for her, avoiding a “bad word” was much more important to her than helping me, or even listening to what I was fucking. And I never went back.

Rant over. To be honest, before I started writing I didn’t realized how pissed I was about the whole thing. Wasted words, probably. I don’t see most people here viewing “crazy” as a word to be struck out of our vocabulary the way “retarded” should be and the way “lame” maybe should be– in searching for the Mandolin’s post, I found it used a number of times, even in a category name. And I think it’s such a load-bearing word (among unlike “retarded,” you can use “crazy” positively without it being ironic), that it’s simply not going anywhere, no matter how much utopians try.

But I do read and occasionally comment here, and it’s because, unlike a lot of other blogs, the readers are treated like adults, people who can hold two ideas in their heads at once. I don’t think Amanda’s right all the time, but she’s willing to think about something and respond with nuance rather than simply react.

Comment #270: onegin  on  06/16  at  10:03 PM

Like I said, its very clear that many commentators are just using this post as an excuse to whine about another blog

Well, there’s no way to complain about Shakesville on Shakesville, because even constructive criticism is tantamount to either giving Melissa more work or devaluing the whole category of women’s labor.

“Whining” about meta-blog issues seems petty, I’m sure.  It’s hard to defend “whining.”  But I’m not sure this discussion is “whining” and it’s definitely not (for me at least) about humorlessness; Shakesville and especially Melissa can be damn funny. 

I don’t think the Shakesville regulars and moderators argue fairly, and they so often presume bad faith, and they like catching “fauxgressives,” and sooner or later, in the midst of an argument, you find that you’ve been transmogrified into that accursed specimen, and it’s almost impossible to come back from being designated one of those, unless you find ways to curry favor.

And because Pandagon and Shakesville are two of the preeminent feminist blogs, which seem to have evolved tremendously different “community” morés, I think it’s appropriate to talk about the one on the other, without having it be dismissed as “whining.”

Comment #271: FlipYrWhig  on  06/16  at  10:15 PM

BStu:

There’s a very large overlap of people here who lurk (moi, with the odd exception) and post (ginmar, for example), at Shakesville.  The recent events there have aroused a great deal of concern and interest, and people are talking about it.  Some of us are shifting uncomfortably and noting things that have made us uncomfortable about that sister site (no pun intended), things that we haven’t said before but say now because the subject is now on the table.  It’s not kvetching about another blog, it’s a bit of a damn bursting, in some instances.

Comment #272: seeker6079  on  06/16  at  10:15 PM

Wow, you know, I kind of hoped that checking back here I’d see a little progress (as in, furthering of the discussion rather than more name-calling and bickering and complaining about SV and ‘lame’).  But as has been said by few others—this has just turned into a pile-on.  I expect a lot of bullshit from other commenters, though; what really upsets me is that Amanda—someone I really respect—not only somehow divined that I’m not a sexual assault survivor (um, what?) but that I think she’s somehow a bad one.  All I meant to say was that I don’t understand how having the trigger label can be more damaging to her than not having the trigger label is damaging to me.  And still all I’m getting is that her sense of dignity over not being put in the ‘delicate flower’ box is more important than me being one of those ‘delicate flowers’ who self-injures. It’s fine if she doesn’t want to do the trigger warnings—this blog IS for her, not me.  What’s not fine for her to insult people with mental illness and maladaptive behaviors like that.  It’s ignorant and, moreover, it’s cruel.

I re-read the OP, and I re-read Amanda’s comments, and that’s still what I’m getting from it.  I realize it’s late in the game for her to respond again, and I don’t hold out much hope for real responses from other commenters.  I just felt it necessary to leave this last word here.

Comment #273: EGhead  on  06/16  at  10:36 PM

I thought you said you weren’t, Eg.  Sorry if I was mistaken.  But please quit dismissing my concerns about how rape victims are pressured into aping “broken” behaviors that we may not feel.  A lot of us do much better with irreverence, which you have repeatedly dismissed as a legitimate path compared to the one where you feel you require all these “trigger” messages at feminist blogs.

Comment #274: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/16  at  10:50 PM

I’m not a victim of assault, but I don’t see how Amanda’s post can even be construed as a criticism of people with “mental illnesses.”

Comment #275: onegin  on  06/16  at  10:54 PM

I said to the therapist that “Sometimes you’re just going to tell me ‘that’s crazy, think about it for a second,’” and she responded “[Eugene], I will never call you crazy.” I immediately understood that for her, avoiding a “bad word” was much more important to her than helping me, or even listening to what I was fucking. And I never went back.

I’m endlessly grateful to my therapist from when I was a teenager. She was really great about pointing out how weird some of the stuff that came out of my mouth was. I went into therapy bitching and pouting and scared ‘cause I thought my parents just didn’t like my attitude and were lying about me needing help so that they could control me; she pointed out that, guess what, talking about death and suicide constantly in every conversation you have is *not normal* and kind of a big red flag. She didn’t say stuff was crazy (I never had explicitly asked her to, for one) but she had no problem saying that I was acting like a jerk or being irrational. (I feel like calling people “irrational” is another one of those hot-button things too, btw. Sure it gets used as a bludgeon against women a lot but that doesn’t mean anti-vaccer’s who happen to be women aren’t nucking futs and shouldn’t be called on it either. Irrational is irrational.)

All I meant to say was that I don’t understand how having the trigger label can be more damaging to her than not having the trigger label is damaging to me.  And still all I’m getting is that her sense of dignity over not being put in the ‘delicate flower’ box is more important than me being one of those ‘delicate flowers’ who self-injures.

Not to be an asshole or anything (like that ever stops me) but that really comes across as name-dropping cutting purely to emotionally blackmail someone. And that’s pretty shitty behavior. If this post makes you hurt yourself don’t *read* it anymore. It’s not Amanda’s fault and it’s not the fault of the community. Not to mention that “dignity” is pretty fecking important. I personally think Amanda’s right to protect her own dignity in her own space trumps your right to read about only what you want to read in her space. My dad had it absolutely right, what he told me, when I asked him as a little kid, if he would ever stop loving me. He said that the only way that would ever happen would be if I tried to blackmail him by threatening to harm myself. That would be the point at which he’d be out and he’d be gone. (Serious topic for a 12-year-old, but good to know.) You and Amanda obviously don’t have a parental relationship (or much of a relationship at all) but I still think it’d be wise for you to cut it out regarding the emotional blackmail. It’s a bridge-burner like few others.

Comment #276: Bagelsan  on  06/16  at  11:00 PM

All I meant to say was that I don’t understand how having the trigger label can be more damaging to her than not having the trigger label is damaging to me.

You know what, her work shouldn’t revolve around what you want, but what she wants and feels is important to her.  I thought that was what feminism was suppose to be about, not making women tiptoe around because “Not having a trigger label is damaging to me/him/her/them/etc.”

If you don’t like the way she runs her blog, that’s okay, but to imply that you’re somehow damaged by her not giving into your demands is pathetic.

Comment #277: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/16  at  11:09 PM

I’d just like to say I am VERY grateful for this post. I love Pandagon and feel very safe here. Shakesville? Not so much. But different strokes for different folks.

If someone needs to have trigger-warnings and whatnot, that’s totally fine. This is not the blog for that. If someone has an issue with trigger-warnings, Shakesville is not the blog for you. It’s all very simple.

Comment #278: Genine  on  06/16  at  11:45 PM

I didn’t say she had to run her blog that way.  I said I would prefer it, and then relented that it wasn’t my choice.

I mentioned my self-injury because I was trying to clarify what I—and certainly others—meant by ‘triggering’.  I didn’t ‘threaten’ to do it—hell, I never even said that this post made me do it (and it hasn’t.)  That is not REMOTELY shitty.  You know what’s really shitty? Accusing me of ‘blackmail’ for even mentioning that I have that addiction.  As if I don’t get that enough just for having the audacity of continuing to exist with scars on my arms.  This is really a new low.  I am amazed a comment like that is allowed here.

And ‘just leave’ isn’t a good enough excuse for allowing people to say that kind of vile shit.

Comment #279: EGhead  on  06/16  at  11:51 PM

Rache. is there some reason you’re here? Who the fuck ARE you? I mean, you could could be anybody. Who are you?

As for the rest of it, I’ll deal with with it tomorrow, unless Amanda, LitBrit, RapistApologist in a time of Romans, or Gracchus-those-Iraqis-are-savages deigns to act like adults tomoorow. Is there a cowardly gang bang you haven’t wet your dicks in? Maybe you can deal with other backstabbing assholes, Amanda, you got any tips?

Comment #280: ginmar  on  06/16  at  11:53 PM

Sorry, BStu, but I have genuinely lost track of which person you are talking about when you refer to the person with the three posts.  A little help?  Much obliged.

I counted 8 posts at the time of writing. So it’s not like EGhead was shouted down before she could get a point across.

i read McEwan’s articles sometimes, and she can be super insightful. her site works best for her; neat!

Except that it clearly isn’t working for her - hence all the current issues. And when people suggest ways she could make it easier on herself (or offer to help), they get chewed to bits.

I think there’s something fundamentally flawed in attempting to create a universally safe space. There are 6 and a half billion people out there. Each of them has different experiences and will be “triggered” or offended by different things. For example, I’d imagine that SV isn’t a safe place for - let’s say Ayatollah Khameni.

So you restrict scope and say that you only need to be safe for the societally disenfranchised. That’s still a set of massively conflicting views.

Comment #281: Dolbia  on  06/16  at  11:56 PM

Oh my god, people, I’m not saying that EG is practicing one hundred percent honest rhetoric here, but it’s ridiculous to dismiss the idea that reading a graphic account of sexual violence can be damaging. Like I said, I’m not a survivor of much of anything, but I do have a certain tendency towards “obsessive thought patterns” in therapist-ese or “waaay overthinking things” in normal-person-ese, and if I read something horrible, I get cold and nauseous and lose some serious mental functioning for a while and spend the next week or two staring at the ceiling at four a.m. with incredibly unpleasant thoughts in my brain. It seriously impeded my functioning and made me miserable. It took therapy to be able to page past these things/change the channel / set down the newspaper instead of getting stuck. And I don’t have a roaring case of PTSD to go with this. If I did, I could see thinking that the cost of putting up two words (not even trigger warning! “Gets graphic” or “pretty upsetting” would work!) was way less harmful then going through that for a week.

Amanda’s point, that as a person with an actual bad experience in your history it can be super-harmful to be expected to treat yourself with kid gloves all the time, is rather more subtle. And, I think, really important. I also think we’re talking in abstractions; while Amanda talks about things that are upsetting, this isn’t freaking 4chan. I’ve never seen her spring something misery-making on me out of nowhere, and I am oversensitive to just about everything that gets a trigger-warning on safe-space blogs. But not ruining someone’s whole week just for kicks is not tip-toeing. Nor is Amanda’s right to speak her mind however she wants “just for kicks”.

Comment #282: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  12:33 AM

Let us think win-win. EGhead never wants to read anything she doesn’t want to, while Amanda does not want to change the format of her blog. I respect Amanda’s moral rights as an author—what EGhead is asking her to do is apply a fig leaf to her nude sculptures. And, as apostate points out, every sensitive reader has a unique set of triggers. To include some is to exclude others.

The default would be to have an implicit trigger warning on every post, just as every business in the state of California has a Prop 65 warning at its entrance. I don’t see the utility of that.

But, EG’s desires can be accomplished via technology. Just as ClearPlay http://www.clean-edited-movies.com/clearplay.htm allows upstanding Mormon families to play commercial DVDs by filtering out everything they find undesirable, EG can subscribe to this site’s RSS feed, and, at her site, filter out any posts containing her trigger words.

Comment #283: Hector B.  on  06/17  at  12:40 AM

Where are all the posts jumping down the asses of fuckbuckets calling people who might need trigger warnings too sensitive?

The fuck kinda shit IS that?

And how is warning someone with 2 goddamn little words treating them as if they’re broken or delicate? I thought it was basic manners.


Guess not.

Comment #284: Kogi  on  06/17  at  12:42 AM

Where are all the posts calling people who need trigger warnings too sensitive? I think I read one post where someone said they didn’t want to say that people who need trigger warnings are too sensitive.

Fuckbuckets? Isn’t that dehumanizing?

Comment #285: maurinsky  on  06/17  at  12:54 AM

Now EGHead _is_ getting dogpiled, IMHO, and it’s getting a bit personal, and it’s making me squirm…

But, um, ginmar, what the fuck?  You keep bringing up past history with other commenters, and I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about, and I guess you feel like it’s settling the score, but as an outsider all I’m getting is abuse and escalation _from you_.

Comment #286: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  01:16 AM

We have an example of someone who self-injured offered up as evidence that Shakesville has become too cult-like (why didn’t she just leave!) just before EGHead gets told that if this blog causes her to self-injure, she’s pathetic and she needs to be responsible for her own mental health.

I realize it’s not the same people making these statements. I just wanted to note that.

Comment #287: chingona  on  06/17  at  01:22 AM

One whole post? And I’m sorry but ” didn’t want to say” is one of those phrases that set off every bullshit alarm there is. I don’t want to say such and such…so I’ll just imply it so I’ll have plausible deniability later..or I’ll just go ahead and say it but in different words.

That’s in the same category as ” I don’t mean to offend but”

It’s no more or less dehumanizing than “lame” or “crazy”, and from what I’m reading here, so long as the original definition either hasn’t been used in many years or some of the posters think it’s fine and dandy then dehumanizing and insulting words get a free pass. We don’t want to imply posters here are so broken it would bother them, right?

Comment #288: Kogi  on  06/17  at  01:29 AM

I realize it’s not the same people making these statements. I just wanted to note that. “


Noted. It’s repugnant isn’t it?

Comment #289: Kogi  on  06/17  at  01:31 AM

warning someone with 2 goddamn little words treating them as if they’re broken or delicate

Warning who about what?

For reasons I don’t want to go into, Kool and the Gang’s “Celebrate Good Times” is a trigger for my wife. Should amanda have a “warning, may trigger” label if it shows up on her Friday Random Ten?

Comment #290: Hector B.  on  06/17  at  01:35 AM

EGHead gets told that if this blog causes her to self-injure, she’s pathetic and she needs to be responsible for her own mental health.

No, I responded to this statment:

not having the trigger label is damaging to me.

and I didn’t think it contained any kind of threat to self-damage, overt or otherwise, FWIW.

Comment #291: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/17  at  01:38 AM

EGHead gets told that if this blog causes her to self-injure, she’s pathetic

I totally missed that.  That’s, um, extreme.  I was just reacting to tone generally.  I missed the whole confrontation about “cutting” and “self-injury.”

Comment #292: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  01:40 AM

@ Dark Avenger—I think chingona is referring to the post by “bagelsan” at 10:00 PM.  I whizzed right past it and maybe you did too.  It was pretty harsh.

Comment #293: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  01:42 AM

For reasons I don’t want to go into, Kool and the Gang’s “Celebrate Good Times” is a trigger for my wife. Should amanda have a “warning, may trigger” label if it shows up on her Friday Random Ten? “

Yes, because when people here are talking about Trigger Warnings they mean the most obscure shit possible just to annoy you. People who might appreciate trigger warnings are all hysterical pathetic weinies offended by the slightest little thing and should be roundly mocked by using the most extreme bordering ridiculous examples possible.


This tactic doesn’t work when racist bigots trot it out to justify being offensive to POC, I really don’t understand how people here think it works for them either. It’s like watching a discussion on the N word and seeing just how many white people jump at the chance to use the N word, as if talking about it academically means they get a free pass. You get the feeling their true colors are showing.


That’s the feeling I get when reading these comments. People were just waiting for the opportunity to show their contempt for anyone they deem “weaker”.

Comment #294: Kogi  on  06/17  at  02:15 AM

Yes, because when people here are talking about Trigger Warnings they mean the most obscure shit possible just to annoy you. People who might appreciate trigger warnings are all hysterical pathetic weinies offended by the slightest little thing and should be roundly mocked by using the most extreme bordering ridiculous examples possible.

I can’t listen to the song “One Tin Soldier” because it brings up every feeling I had when I was 7 years old and my mother died of breast cancer and I start crying uncontrollably.  Thank you for completely dismissing the notion that not everyone has the exact same triggers so therefore anyone who says that they’re triggered by an obscure song must be mocking the very idea of triggers.

No, I AM NOT joking when I say that song is a trigger.  It was one of my mother’s favorite songs, I strongly associate it with her, and every time I hear it, I’m back in the living room at midnight with my grandmother and aunt explaining to me that my mother was dead.

Comment #295: Mnemosyne  on  06/17  at  02:28 AM

Ugh, unfortunately, I agree with Kogi. I’ve been mostly a lurker here and at Shakesville for years and I am very much in sympathy with the critique of recent doings at Shakeville made by litbrit, aposate, zuzu, and others on their blog and elsewhere. However, Kogi has very aptly described a number of people in this thread.

Hector, you’ve very badly misunderstood the discussion—including Amanda’s smart and interesting OP—if you think that kind of thing is the issue. Now, I *don’t* want to assume bad faith on your part because that’s the fastlane to a pack-mentality pile-on, so I’ll just suggest you might find this discussion more interesting if you assume a modicum of good sense on the part of those you’re disagreeing with.

Comment #296: late_to_the_party  on  06/17  at  02:32 AM

Kogi, actually it’s the exact opposite. What people by and large are saying is that there’s a very real concern that these “trigger warnings” are by and large arbitrary, and focus on what may be there for one group of people while utterly ignoring those for other people.

I was talking to my wife about this earlier, who is rather blog-neutral (she doesn’t read political blogs for a variety of reasons.), and we were both in agreement quite whole-heartedly with some comments from above. The “walking-on-eggshells” effect is probably the most common trigger that I can think of. One thing that is very common with this sort of thing is the feeling that if you do speak up, you’ll be kicked down, or if you say the wrong thing you’ll be beat up or whatever.

In this way, I’m less concerned about a blog style of warnings for potentially emotional graphic content than I am the overall community situation which can start to become abusive and bullying over this sort of thing. Honestly it goes past a trigger. It becomes a pattern.

Comment #297: Karmakin  on  06/17  at  02:34 AM

And thank YOU for pretending that example wasn’t an attempt at the “slippery slope” crap and the ” triggers are EVERYWHERE” excuse.

I call bullshit. That whole “Should amanda have a “warning, may trigger” label if it shows up on her Friday Random Ten?” meant exactly that. We can’t possibly know everyone’s triggers so we shouldn’t have to arse ourselves over the common ones. It’s far easier to call people too sensitive and imply their need for trigger warnings is a sign of weakness.

OMG if we have a trigger warning for x survivors next thing you know we’ll have to trigger warning the use of italics in our posts!!!


Fucking disgusting.

Comment #298: Kogi  on  06/17  at  02:34 AM

What people by and large are saying is that there’s a very real concern that these “trigger warnings” are by and large arbitrary, and focus on what may be there for one group of people while utterly ignoring those for other people. “


Which has nothing to do with my pointing out the hateful posters calling those who need triggers sensitive and pathetic or dismissing them by using the slippery slope type tactic.

I personally don’t give a rats ass if someone uses a trigger warning or not. But if your reasons are assholish, then at least have the guts to admit it instead of hiding behind a blow owner while insulting anyone who isn’t as magically delicious as you and might need a warning.

Comment #299: Kogi  on  06/17  at  02:42 AM

blog owner*

Comment #300: Kogi  on  06/17  at  02:43 AM

Um, Kogi, can you take it down a notch?  You’re escalating and escalating and saying things like “people were just waiting for the opportunity to show their contempt for anyone they deem ‘weaker,’” and that’s quite an indictment, and I’m not sure how many examples of said “contempt” you’re actually reacting to.

Comment #301: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:46 AM

Which has nothing to do with my pointing out the hateful posters calling those who need triggers sensitive and pathetic

IMHO you’re not pointing out the “hateful posters,” you’re pointing out, like, everyone.

Comment #302: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:49 AM

Purpleshoes:

I also think we’re talking in abstractions; while Amanda talks about things that are upsetting, this isn’t freaking 4chan.

Yeah, this.  Amanda and the other Pandagon bloggers are generally clear enough writers that if a post contains something that has the potential to be really upsetting, I can generally figure it out from context long before it gets to the “super-graphic” stage.  I think the thing that concerns me most about the whole “we don’t do trigger warnings” thing here is that the two sides’ rationales don’t seem to have equal weight: Amanda’s decision not to warn is based on the desire to make a fairly subtle and abstract rhetorical point (a point that I happen to largely agree with), whereas the desire for a trigger warning by people who feel they need it isn’t subtle, abstract, or rhetorical at all: it’s just based on the desire not to feel like they’ve been punched in the gut if they inadvertently come across the wrong thing.  If it did just come down to two opposed rhetorical positions, I’d be more inclined to agree with Amanda’s position than the Shakesville one, but it’s more like one rhetorical position and one concrete need.

I don’t say this to diminish rhetoric; sometimes you really do need to make a point that can’t be made any other way but with certain words that might hurt some other people, even people who don’t necessarily deserve to be hurt.  Sometimes having that point made actually helps those very same people—ideas are powerful, after all.  It’s not that I think rhetorical needs must always and under every circumstance yield to more concrete ones, but I do think that all else being equal, concrete ones should generally be given more weight, because they’re about issues of access, and it’s hard to appreciate much of anything about a space if you don’t even feel you can access it.  So yeah, it makes me uncomfortable—but that goes back to the diversity thing again, and it’s simply not the case that Pandagon is the only feminist space on the internet.  So, well, if there’s enough space for Amanda to make her rhetorical point, I’m generally OK with that, especially since due to the whole good-writing effect described above, it isn’t actually hard in practice for people to get a feel for what problematic content might be lurking around.

Comment #303: Kathleen F.  on  06/17  at  03:01 AM

Which has nothing to do with my pointing out the hateful posters calling those who need triggers sensitive and pathetic or dismissing them by using the slippery slope type tactic.

The only person who called people who need trigger warnings “pathetic” was EGhead.  Here’s the post, from 9:21 am:

I’m not sure how that’s passive-aggressive; that to me implies some sort of hidden message, and I think mine was pretty clear.  Trigger warnings are only patronizing if you think it’s pathetic to be triggered.

The only other uses of “pathetic” was when people quoted EGhead.  tokidoki used the word “pathetic” when she agreed with EGhead.

Please find me the post where someone other than EGhead or people quoting her says that people who have triggers are “pathetic.”  The only other use I can find was when Dark Avenger said at 10:09 pm:

If you don’t like the way she runs her blog, that’s okay, but to imply that you’re somehow damaged by her not giving into your demands is pathetic.

That’s not saying “all people who have triggers are pathetic.”  That’s saying “you made a pathetic statement.” 

So, basically, EGhead projected her assumption that the only reason someone wouldn’t use trigger warnings is because they think badly of her onto the rest of us and pre-determined that we think she’s “pathetic.”  And then she wondered why people were dismissing her.

Oh, and fuck you too for making fun of my trigger.  The point I was making is that triggers are very personal and not everyone is triggered by the same things, and I foolishly recounted a very personal story to explain mine since I was pretty sure it wouldn’t—guess what?—trigger anyone with violence issues.  I should have known that you would immediately dismiss it as you’ve dismissed every argument Amanda has made for her specific, conscious decision to not put trigger warnings on her posts and her detailed explanations why.

Comment #304: Mnemosyne  on  06/17  at  03:03 AM

Dude, Amanda’s irreverent photos and use of douchebag as a word is triggering for my spouse.  Should they be flagged?  I don’t get it.  Yeah, they talk about serious stuff.  But what is and isn’t triggering seems really arbitrary and hard to predict.

I do like the category labels, and find them useful to warn or know whether I want to read them or not.  I’d really prefer to know who’s writing at the top of articles, too!

Comment #305: Crissa  on  06/17  at  03:17 AM

@ Mnem, I think the discussion about the term “pathetic” is not a quotation but a (loaded) paraphrase, and I think it comes from the EGHead/Bagelsan exchange about self-injury, cutting, and therapy around 10:00 PM, which I only noticed after chingona highlighted it at 12:22.

Comment #306: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  03:34 AM

Also @ Mnem, I wonder if Dark Avenger’s comment “If you don’t like the way she runs her blog, that’s okay, but to imply that you’re somehow damaged by her not giving into your demands is pathetic” was read as “to imply that you’re somehow damaged is pathetic.”

Comment #307: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  03:36 AM

As one of the folks who’s been commenting at Apostate (as MaryT), just want to be clear—I agree that it’s cool to run your blog however you see fit. It was the weird overtone of threats of closing the blog, disappearances without explanation, and mods expecting everyone not to question what was going on that I got tired of. Carry on!

Comment #308: Halfmad  on  06/17  at  03:40 AM

Well, it’s official. I’ve wasted another perfectly good evening on a blogtacular shitstorm. Here’s an oldy but a goody for everyone who took this thread over 300 comments.

http://xkcd.com/386/

Comment #309: chingona  on  06/17  at  04:08 AM

The point I was making is that triggers are very personal and not everyone is triggered by the same things, and I foolishly recounted a very personal story to explain mine since I was pretty sure it wouldn’t—guess what?—trigger anyone with violence issues.

I understand this perfectly. Triggers are not a one-size-fits-all situation. Common sense has little to do with what taps into people’s deepest emotions. Basically the kogis of this world are claiming they can speak for everyone, that they are, however irritable sounding, an incarnation of Kuan Yin, right here in front of us.

Comment #310: Hector B.  on  06/17  at  04:29 AM

I don’t know Ms. Marcotte beyond this blog and the odd e-conversation, but I do doubt that she would be troubled by being called a “blow owner”.

Comment #311: seeker6079  on  06/17  at  07:44 AM

There’s a second fundamental point that I think Amanda made that seems to me has gotten lost - and I think it is critical.

I think both sides have correctly picked up on the part about different blogs having different rules, and with more or less willingness to actually listen to her point, Amanda’s take on what she wants her rules to be.

But I also got the equally, if not more, important point that consistency matters. And on that, I think Pandagon excels.

Take a hypothetical “laughing at cat pictures site.” It really doesn’t matter whether the blog owner feels strongly about trigger warnings or not, or whether that blogger is a survivor or not, or what her take on her own approach to it is - people logging on, day after day, take for granted that they are getting funny, (or not so) pictures of kitty cats.  If the blogger suddenly feels a need to address some other situation grossly outside the usual content (say, a report of animal cruelty, with photos),  a warning and an “after the fold” are not only sensible, but not to use them would be cruel.

But, lost in Amanda’s point is that Pandagon is a site where one post is going to be about American Idol and the next about rape, Rape Culture, privilege, etc. A casual visitor might be surprised, or trip over something that offends or triggers them, but regular readers get a pretty consistent sort of content.

In short, no regular reader of Pandagon has any basis to express shock that a given post contained the sort of content that people have been discussing. It won’t be gratuitous, but it will be there. And it may pop up in a thread on fraternities, or Republicans, or US foreign policy, or what’s at the multiplex this week. And Amanda has absolutely no responsibility to run her stuff for anyone other than her regular readers (actually, nobody other than herself, but that’s how she GETS the regular readers.)

It isn’t just that Amanda has her take on triggers and runs her blog along those lines. It is that responsible, intelligent people have available to them the means to fairly quickly determine whether Pandagon is the kind of site that they can read safely and get useful stuff from.

In this thread, she’s made it clear that if someone isn’t one of those people, she doesn’t inherently wish them ill, she’s just okay with the fact that this won’t be their kind of site. And pretty explicitly said that she is happy (or at least fine with the fact) that there are other sites where people who need something else can get it.

I think complaints along the lines of “that topic or content completely blindsided me, c’mon!” are perfectly valid, but complaints along the lines of “this blog isn’t the kind of blog I want to read” aren’t.

Comment #312: Lymis  on  06/17  at  10:26 AM

But we don’t live in a world where 50% of the population is taught to live in fear of doorknobs or folk songs, or where doorknobs or folk songs are broadly eroticized by people who dismiss the personhood of folk-song fearers, etc. etc. It’s reasonable to want to have places to go where you won’t be startled by graphic accounts of sexual violence. Equating a personal fear (and I’m not dismissing y’all’s personal fears!) with something that’s broadly used to terrorize women at all levels of society and constantly is a little ridiculous. Amanda’s refusal to act terrorized is freaking valid, as are some women’s inabilities to separate themselves mentally from something that is a constant fear and threat in a rape culture.

But if someone comes up to you and starts babbling on about doorknobs, they can be dismissed as not being able to know in advance that you have a doorknob phobia. If someone comes up to you and starts talking graphically about sexual violence, that’s very different. And coming over to someone’s blog where they want to talk about a culture of sexual violence and do so thoughtfully is a third thing entirely. Argh. Must stop typing. Must eat breakfast. Someone is wrong on the internet!

Comment #313: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  10:28 AM

That’s the feeling I get when reading these comments. People were just waiting for the opportunity to show their contempt for anyone they deem “weaker”.

Passive aggressive much?  More projection than a 20 screen theater, that.

Comment #314: Ms Kate  on  06/17  at  10:49 AM

Kogi, grow up.  Learn something about senses and triggers.  Smell and sound are the two most evocative senses we have as humans; smell and sound are the two things that can trigger anything from a traumatic event to happy event to a sad event.  Who of us here doesn’t turn into a giddy teenager when the right song comes on?  Or walk past a stranger and think about your father, for good or bad reasons?  Visual triggers are very, very specific.  Blue walls, as Apostate said.  Those glow-in-the-dark stickers you put on your ceilings had to be removed from my dorm after my roommate was raped in a different room with similar stickers. 

Reading something on a feminist blog requires a higher level of functioning and comprehending and rational capabilities.  It’s not all Id, if you will.  If you are reading a graphic sexual post, the onus is on you to page down or backspace or switch windows.  You are capable of that because you are reading.  Such an action requires your effort and intent as opposed to listening or smelling or seeing.  This is not to say that reading a graphic post isn’t triggering, this is simply to say that you are one of the most entitled assholes I may have ever come across on the internet for mocking Mnemosyne.  It’s a hell of a lot easier for her to randomly click through videos while reading the top ten list and then all of a sudden realize what she’s hearing and lose her shit than it is for someone to be unable to stop reading.  Or to self-censor and control themselves in order to skip the really graphic parts.  Or anything else.  And in that context, then yes!  It does make sense to put a trigger warning on music, because music is more triggering than an AP article.  Music is specific to a time and a place whereas news articles require you to want to read it.

Purpleshoes, I don’t want to diminish what you shared about your obsessive thoughts.  I’m currently in therapy for them myself.  But hopefully I explained myself well enough to differentiate between an uncontrolled trigger versus an obsessive thought pattern.  I very much think that if something requires my involvement to make my feel badly, like reading, then it’s my responsibility to extricate myself.  But clearly, as we all know, it’s not as easy as “stop reading” or “stop thinking”.  I’m talking myself in circles here so I’m going to stop.

And Ginmar, seriously?  You want my internet feminist credentials?  There are more people lurking than ever comment, you know.  And some people read a lot of blogs.  I comment occasionally on Pandagon and close to never at Shakesville but, surprise!  That doesn’t prevent me from having an opinion and being offended by what she’s doing.

Comment #315: Rachel,II  on  06/17  at  10:52 AM

People were just waiting for the opportunity to show their contempt for anyone they deem “weaker”. “


I can be more aggressive if you’d like. I can flat out state those posters are being opportunistic bastards using this topic as an excuse to shit on those they feel are weaker.


Better?

Comment #316: Kogi  on  06/17  at  11:27 AM

IMHO you’re not pointing out the “hateful posters,” you’re pointing out, like, everyone. “


If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t try to wear it.


“Please find me the post where someone other than EGhead or people quoting her says that people who have triggers are “pathetic.” The only other use I can find was when Dark Avenger said at 10:09 pm: “

Find them yourself, others have managed.

“Oh, and fuck you too for making fun of my trigger. “

Right back atcha.

Perhaps it escaped your attention, but when or others (not towing the Triggers are Insulting line) brought up their own personal triggers they were told that was passive aggressive and amounted to emotional blackmail. Wonder where your pile on is, hmmm?


And people have been tossing out extreme and ridiculous examples in order to justify not posting trigger warnings, yours falls under obscure because it’s so specific. That’s not making fun of it, it’s pointing out a fact. The difference is that EG and others are talking about general subjects, but are being dismissed by people using overy specific examples.  Your trigger was used by your husband to dismiss other people’s triggers.

That’s classy right there.


“this is simply to say that you are one of the most entitled assholes I may have ever come across on the internet “


boo hoo

Comment #317: Kogi  on  06/17  at  11:40 AM

Triggers ARE specific!  If they AREN’T then it’s either obsessive behavior (which is no less a problem but NOT a trigger) or it’s simply reading something that makes you feel bad for no reason.  Both of which you have a modicum of control over!

Comment #318: Rachel,II  on  06/17  at  11:46 AM

But, EG’s desires can be accomplished via technology. Just as ClearPlay http://www.clean-edited-movies.com/clearplay.htm allows upstanding Mormon families to play commercial DVDs by filtering out everything they find undesirable, EG can subscribe to this site’s RSS feed, and, at her site, filter out any posts containing her trigger words.

Great idea. For people who are triggered, it would be worth signing up for a free Yahoo account to use Yahoo Pipes ( http://pipes.yahoo.com ), which is an easy and flexible way to do that kind of highly individualised RSS filtering.

Somehow, though, I’m confident that this effective technical solution won’t be enough for Amanda’s critics on this issue.

For reasons I don’t want to go into, Kool and the Gang’s “Celebrate Good Times” is a trigger for my wife. Should amanda have a “warning, may trigger” label if it shows up on her Friday Random Ten?

Man, weddings must be rough on your wife. I’m sure close friends and relatives are happy to exclude the song from the playlist or at least have the DJ/bandleader pre-announce that song, but I’d imagine it would be more awkward to ask other people to do those things.

Comment #319: Gracchus.  on  06/17  at  11:53 AM

I hope you’re not being purposely obtuse.

The types of triggers EG and others are discussing tend to fall under general categories. Like graphic violence and/or sexual violence. Those topics require half a brain cell to slap TW on it before continuing on, unlike having to stop and worry that posting a vid to a song or describing the smell of roses requires.


The ” It’s your own fault” excuse is repugnant. They asked for it, did they?

Nice one.

Comment #320: Kogi  on  06/17  at  11:53 AM

If you’re reading at a feminist blog, hell, if you are reading on the internet itself, then any person with any sensitivity will quickly realize that every link comes with its own trigger warning.  And yes, if you are so naive as to think people care about your feelings on the internet, then yes, it’s your fault when you feel sad.

Comment #321: Rachel,II  on  06/17  at  11:56 AM

Mnemosyne, I’m not sure if you’re ignoring the context in which me and EG used the word pathetic.  Look at these quotes from Amanda:

I don’t like feeling like prominent feminists think an incident in my past makes me too broken to deal

The “good” victim stereotype comes to mind, which is exactly the stereotype I feel I have a right to reject. Believe me, there’s a lot of pressure to be broken if you’ve been raped, and trigger warnings can unintentionally feed that.

EG and I aren’t saying that she’s responsible for hurting us or needs to change her policy, nothing of the sort.  I don’t think anyone on “this side” (Kogi, EG, me), is trying to say that either choice is more better, though I can only speak for myself.  We’re not entitled to Amanda catering to everything we need.  We’re asking, what’s WRONG with fitting the “good victim” stereotype?  What IF we are “broken”?  No one said anyone has to be broken or damaged from their trauma, but the people who ARE damaged aren’t any weaker than those who aren’t. 

An analogy I can think of is when feminists are stereotyped as hairy-legged lesbians.  It’s worth pointing out that we aren’t all hairy-legged lesbians, yes, but there is nothing wrong with being one.  Another apt comparison is pro-choicers who believe abortion should be legal in all cases, but also think that carrying the pregnancy to term is the more brave/moral choice.  So if someone assumed that they had aborted when they mentioned they had an unplanned pregnancy, their response would be “no, I’m stronger than that/I’m not that broken.”  And I think most people here WOULD feel insulted by that reasoning, even though they would be allowing both people their choices. 

Also, conflating songs/smells/whatever (which are not inherently scary or damaging) with violence (which, for most people, is inherently scary and damaging), is getting kinda old.  No one ever said that the unique triggers we all have should have warnings, we’re just taking issue with the argument that because anything can be a trigger, trigger warnings are useless.

Comment #322: Tokidoki  on  06/17  at  11:56 AM

So you know Gracchus-

I’m not critisizing amanda’s choice to avoid trigger warnings. I’m critisizing the utterly asshole justifications so many posters are using to defend her choice and how they are dismissing people who do need trigger warnings as sensitive or broken or delicate etc etc.

Comment #323: Kogi  on  06/17  at  11:57 AM

And yes, if you are so naive as to think people care about your feelings on the internet, then yes, it’s your fault when you feel sad. “


This from the person who thought it important enough to call me an entitled asshole. Like I’d care.


*snorts*

“your fault when you feel sad.”


Ah, that’s all you think triggers do is it? Hurt someone’s fee fee’s? Who’s being an entitled asshole now? You just mocked everyone with a trigger.

Comment #324: Kogi  on  06/17  at  12:03 PM

I’d like to repeat - has anybody who has issues with trigger warnings ever actually found reading Pandagon to be a problem? Real examples (but please, don’t feel like you have to go into whatever details you found triggering, or look up the post again, just describe whatever you’re comfortable with, even if it’s just “yes” I’m willing to take that at face value), and they don’t count if you go digging for them. I’m still skeptical, because I think there’s pretty clear signals from post titles and introductory paragraphs, and I think that putting a little disclaimer in, while polite in some circles, propably is not neccesary if you’ve got effective writing in the first place. If people are saying that “hey, reading this blog is extremely unpleasant/traumatic for me, personally, because of the lack of trigger warnings”, that’s a very different thing from “trigger warnings ought to be mandatory on the offchance that reading this blog is extremely unpleasant/traumatic for me, personally.”

That said, I don’t have any experience with being triggered by stuff, so maybe I’m just making the wrong assumptions.

Comment #325: HonestB  on  06/17  at  12:03 PM

If you’re reading at a feminist blog, hell, if you are reading on the internet itself, then any person with any sensitivity will quickly realize that every link comes with its own trigger warning.  And yes, if you are so naive as to think people care about your feelings on the internet, then yes, it’s your fault when you feel sad.

I agree with your first sentence but your second honestly seems scary as hell.  So because someone is naive, or has too much trust in people, they’re at fault when they get hurt?  Just because the world is unsafe doesn’t mean we can’t be hurt by it or that it’s our fault when we are.  It’s for me hard to see the difference between this and “if you’re so naive to think your abuser will stop hurting you, then it’s you’re fault when you get hurt.”  Is it naive and sad?  Yes, but there is a BIG difference between not protecting oneself and being at fault for being hit.

Comment #326: Tokidoki  on  06/17  at  12:06 PM

Tokidoki,

I missed where Amanda said there was anything wrong with being traumatized. What I heard her express was deep frustration with the pressure the other way - that there was supposed to be something wrong with her for choosing the path she’s taken.

“This is the path that works for me, don’t force me into another one” is NOT the same as saying the other path is wrong for everyone else.

What did I miss?

Comment #327: Lymis  on  06/17  at  12:11 PM

Tokidoki, that makes sense to me, although I think I still disagree.  Most people are affected by descriptions of violence, some more than others, some less than others, but almost everyone feels some level of empathy and sadness and will remember their own experience with violence. 

And the conflation of songs/smells with violence is what causes those things to trigger the violence.  We don’t need to experience violence to know it’s bad.  But when that violence occurs while you’re staring at glow-in-the-dark stickers, your brain links the two together and warns you from now on that seeing stickers means you’re in a violent situation.  Those non-violent, banal things are the cause of PTSD (or in my case obsessive) behavior.  The description of violence is also, sure.  But if only the description of violence is getting a trigger warning, then I agree with Amanda and others who say that’s a bit insulting that I’m not expected to figure out that when I see the block quote formatting, I can’t figure out that it will probably be upsetting.  (I don’t take offensive to trigger warnings on other blogs and think they shouldn’t do it, just that I’m glad I’m not the only person who disagrees with their necessity.)

Comment #328: Rachel,II  on  06/17  at  12:12 PM

The types of triggers EG and others are discussing tend to fall under general categories. Like graphic violence and/or sexual violence.

Given that this blog, as part of its mission, regularly discusses graphic violence and/or sexual violence in a frank and open manner, it’s probably a good idea for someone who’s triggered (or simply offended) by those broader topics in general to spend time around a place with more rigid “safe space” rules and atmosphere like SV, rather than a more free-wheeling, wider-ranging place like Pandagon. It’s not like anyone’s being forced to come here, or is being deprived of critical information by not visiting.

And, as noted above, there are practical solutions for those who want to read the Pandagon, but filter out posts that contain trigger words or phrases or media formats. The Internet is a broad and flexible thing.

I’m not critisizing amanda’s choice to avoid trigger warnings. I’m critisizing the utterly asshole justifications so many posters are using to defend her choice and how they are dismissing people who do need trigger warnings as sensitive or broken or delicate etc etc.

Fair enough. I’d agree that there’s nothing wrong with being sensitive or vulnerable to particular stimuli/triggers, or suffering from PTSD. I also firmly believe in reasonable accommodations for people dealing with those conditions, based on context. That last phrase is key, and the reason I support Pandgon’s policy choices.

Comment #329: Gracchus.  on  06/17  at  12:15 PM

HonestB, I can say that I have gotten triggered before from this site, though I know people will say it’s because I’m stupid.  Because this isn’t a feminist blog (but has feminist times/leanings), and it covers a variety of things from economy to foreign policy to racism, sometimes when I’m skimming to just keep up with general news, there will be a post specific to rape that’ll trigger me.  I should probably avoid the internet altogether when I’m having a bad day, maybe, but I don’t want to miss too much.  I care if there is/is not about trigger warnings on say, IBTP or The Curvature, because feminism and fighting rape culture is what those are ALL about, but I think on a site that covers a broad range of issues they can be useful.  (Not sayin’ they have to be had or that anyone’s responsible for my feeling, just saying my experience.)

I’ve also gotten triggered from posts or comments that discuss trans issues or polyamoury, but I’m not about to say trigger warnings are necessary on those, so that’s why people saying “everything could be a trigger tho!” is upsetting. (My rapist was a trans man and tried to force me into poly relationships.)

Comment #330: Tokidoki  on  06/17  at  12:18 PM

Rachel II, the reason I resisted doing some basic therapy to handle it for years (and seriously, three sessions of mindfulness training later it was under control) was because unlike responding badly to stickers, songs, smells, etc. because they have a basic association with something violent and horrible, responding to actual description of something really horrible by feeling horrified and sick to your stomach doesn’t seem like a misfiring response, it seems like a spot-on adequate human reaction. But we live in a society where you’re constantly bombarded with weird violent imagery and sensationalized stories of What Happens to Girls Who Drink Beer in Public, and so learning to dodge a normal human reaction and instead not react at all is necessary for survival.

It’s my penchant to be alarmed at systemic interpersonal violence, and think way too much about it, that make me a card-carrying feminist, so I’m not particularly sorry that this happens to me.

I think we’re having a miscommunication around the word “trigger”. Of course personal triggers that force people to relive personal traumas are vastly different (Mnemosyne, I get woozy any time I go into a hospital for very similar reasons, and I’m not asking everyone to protect me from hospitals, so sympathy), and much more subjective than a blogger can be expected to label for. I think what the safe space blogs are usually trying to do is not be one more place where women are bombarded with constant reminders of the sexual threat they live their lives under (and if you think this is just me being obsessive consider how you felt the last time you had to walk through an isolated place alone after dark). I seem to have decided that “trigger” is not an adequate word because it causes people to talk about their friend who was raped in a room that smelled like Glade Air Freshener and then go on and on about Glade Air Freshener when what we are talking about is actually how to talk about rape without constantly hitting people in the face with exactly how much the Patriarchy thinks they’re worth.  Feministe, for example, used to be pretty much the Horrific Sexual Attack of the Week Gorey Details blog, and even though I wanted to read their analysis of pertinent issues I had to give it up because it was overwhelming and making me hate everything. Which is not their problem, but I don’t seem to have been the only one. Again, Amanda has never brought out that reaction in me, partially because the mixed subject matter means reading her is not such a grueling slog.

Comment #331: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  12:29 PM

Wow, I’m glad Kogi is such a believer in Safe Space.  Good thing escalating verbal abuse couldn’t possibly be triggering to anybody.

Comment #332: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  12:30 PM

I missed where Amanda said there was anything wrong with being traumatized. What I heard her express was deep frustration with the pressure the other way - that there was supposed to be something wrong with her for choosing the path she’s taken.

Now that I think about it, a lot of it might be that I’ve had the exact opposite experience with pressure in my life-I’ve always been told to stop being too sensitive and overreacting about being raped by all but three people.  I’ve never been assumed to be fragile or unable to do certain things because of them, which is probably why I see it as just a precaution for victims, rather than an assumption of issues.  I took the tone most people used who felt insulted by trigger warnings seems to be insulted that they were treated like THOSE victims, who had “issues.”

Comment #333: Tokidoki  on  06/17  at  12:30 PM

Tokidoki, it is so easy for people to protect themselves on the internet (important note:  I’m talking about anonymous readers/lurkers).  It might take a few bad experiences before you build up the necessary precautions and knowledge of what might happen when you click through somewhere, what different tones mean, etc.  With an abuser, there are two people in the room with you and you are at the mercy of what they want.  On the internet, no one is forcing you to click through or read or interact with something that you know could be triggering or make you feel sad.

It’s not a bad thing to trust someone when you’ve been reading their blog and enjoy their words and all that.  But putting your trust in someone from the internet is so ephemeral, so ripe for abuse, that it’s hard for me to not sound blaming the victim-y when a situation like Shakesville comes along.  I don’t blame them, I understand exactly how they ended up forking over money to Melissa and heaping praise on her.  You like someone, they hurt, you want to stop the hurt, and you sort of forget that it’s not your responsibility because that person isn’t your friend.

Comment #334: Rachel,II  on  06/17  at  12:33 PM

It’s pretty obvious that everybody is talking past one another at this point.

Just to make it clear, Kogi, EG and crew are talking about “triggers” as being discussions of certain subjects. The other side is talking about “triggers” as being things that resonate personal emotional memories, either good or bad.

The problem is that anything and everything could potentially be a personal trigger. We’ve seen a lot of examples of this on this thread. You can’t mark the whole world as a “trigger warning”, it’s just not realistic. In this way, we each are responsible for these things, for dealing with them when they are triggered (which they WILL be from time to time, and usually the person who triggered it is in no way to blame for it).

Now for more subject-level matters, IMO I don’t think that trigger cuts do the job. Again, unless you hide the entire post, including the title behind the cut, I think that you’re still in danger waters. Much more effective, I think would be a global disclaimer. This blog deals with issues X,Y and Z. If you do not wish to read about these issues, there’s a list of links to your right/left. Enjoy.

This isn’t being rude, or not caring about somebodies feelings, it’s about maintaining proper boundaries for yourself IMO. Walking on eggshells because you’re afraid that you might hurt/offend someone is serious emotional problem, I think. Maybe I’m biased, because I’m dealing with it right now. (and doing a good job if I say so myself. Yay me!)  But all the same, the “purity race” often does come across now that I think about it as a way to push on those boundaries that I need to set for myself. And I don’t think that’s fair.

HonestB:I’ve had certain things come across here (and other sites) that have caused minor trigger issues. But that’s nobodies fault (even my own), and it simply is what it is. It’s the friction of modern life.

Comment #335: Karmakin  on  06/17  at  12:34 PM

Wow, Purpleshoes.  That’s ... really correct.  Thank you.

Comment #336: Rachel,II  on  06/17  at  12:39 PM

HonestB, I can say that I have gotten triggered before from this site, though I know people will say it’s because I’m stupid.  Because this isn’t a feminist blog (but has feminist times/leanings), and it covers a variety of things from economy to foreign policy to racism, sometimes when I’m skimming to just keep up with general news, there will be a post specific to rape that’ll trigger me.  I should probably avoid the internet altogether when I’m having a bad day, maybe, but I don’t want to miss too much.  I care if there is/is not about trigger warnings on say, IBTP or The Curvature, because feminism and fighting rape culture is what those are ALL about, but I think on a site that covers a broad range of issues they can be useful.  (Not sayin’ they have to be had or that anyone’s responsible for my feeling, just saying my experience.)

Thanks, Tokidoki, that answered my question, and helped me understand the issue a bit better from the other side.

Personally I don’t always feel safe in safe spaces (trying to create one once for a roomate nearly destroyed my own mental health) so I still feel like Amanda’s argument for diversity of tone, but I often wonder/worry if some of the more standard tactics to make things more accessible actually help or if they’re just paying lip service. I guess trigger warnings get a checkmark in the “actually helps” column.

Comment #337: HonestB  on  06/17  at  12:39 PM

“Warning: Extremely disturbing material related to [rape, violence, partner abuse] behind the fold,”

Well, I’ve had some people in my life commit suicide, so I want that added to the list.  I’m also somewhat claustrophobic so if you wouldn’t mind adding that, I’d be grateful.  As a matter of fact, I get severe ass pains every time someone says Republican, so, if you wouldn’t mind….

Sorry to be blunt but if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.  The best way for many people who have had traumas is to confront them directly.  They deserve a place too.  Some people need to force themselves back in the mainstream.  Seriously, that’s how I deal with my sensitivities.  Certainly everybody is different.  As Amanda said, Pandagon isn’t for everybody.  Abandon sensitivity, ye who enter here.

Comment #338: Magis  on  06/17  at  01:04 PM

Now that I think about it, a lot of it might be that I’ve had the exact opposite experience with pressure in my life-I’ve always been told to stop being too sensitive and overreacting about being raped by all but three people.  I’ve never been assumed to be fragile or unable to do certain things because of them, which is probably why I see it as just a precaution for victims, rather than an assumption of issues.  I took the tone most people used who felt insulted by trigger warnings seems to be insulted that they were treated like THOSE victims, who had “issues.”

Word to that shit.  I don’t hear people saying, “Why aren’t you more upset about having been raped?”  (I think that I’ve had an easier time than a lot of people with it.)  Any time I actually bring up having been raped as being relevant to something (and generally I do so as a factual notation rather than as an emotional explanation since I don’t connect so much emotion to the rape itself), there is a pileon of, “God, you just need to get over it, you whiny bitch; shut the fuck up!  Everyone’s been raped; if you don’t like being raped then try moving to a country where they kill you if they catch you being raped!  THAT’S OPPRESSION!”  Seriously, who the hell is pressuring rape victims to act like delicate flowers?  They’re told to “man up” about it, generally speaking, and to shut the hell up about having been raped; it’s not that big a deal anyway since it happens to, like, everyone, and gods why won’t the women shut up?

So, yeah, that characterization seems odd.

Comment #339: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  01:15 PM

Magis, there are many valid arguments to support Amanda’s point of view here, and “don’t be so sensitive” is a freaking annoying argument, and I think that’s what’s kept me on this thread so long. “This discussion serves a purpose and here’s how,” is a good argument. “I’m freaking sick of walking on eggshells when I don’t want to and I am the blogger here” is a good argument, but Amanda’s moved on to other threads by now.

Yes, I do see how what you’re saying is “don’t be so sensitive if you’re going to be here,” and I acknowledge that, but goddamn, apparently the word “sensitivity” is not my trigger but rather my hairtrigger for spending twenty-four hours on one blog thread.  (Personally, if a description of any kind of interpersonal violence is going to get jury-deposition-level graphic, I like cut tags, but I’m not wedded to the concept.)

Comment #340: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  01:20 PM

purpleshoes:

Actually, I was trying to say two other things.  I suppose that last line was too cute by half and more than a little thoughtless.

However,
I was trying to say that there are some people for who confronting their traumas is theraputic.

I was trying to say that there are a vast number of traumatic events that can have triggers and you can’t cover them all.

Mostly, as I said at the beginning of this monster thread, I appreciate the rather rough and tumble atmoshper at Pandagon.  I sincerely believe that it fills the needs of many people.  I’d truly hate for it to change.

I agree that telling a person to ‘just get over it’ is at best useless.  We all deal with things differently and often the amount of time that has elapsed makes a huge difference.  In any event, you’re a wonderful commentor and I’m sorry I yanked your chain.

Comment #341: Magis  on  06/17  at  01:49 PM

INTPagan, the impression I get from friends’ and acquaintances’ experiences is that if you talk about being raped and you come across as traumatized, you need to man up and stop talking about it, and if you talk about being raped and you don’t act traumatized enough, you’re obviously insufficiently traumatized and need to stop talking about it. I think it’s one of those patriarchal no-wins where the upshot is that women should stop talking about it. Which is why I wish this thread and others like it were more constructive, because obviously the question of how the hell to talk about these things publicly is a standing one.

Comment #342: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  01:53 PM

I’ve always been told to stop being too sensitive

Normally I suggest carrying a Nerf bat for use on such people. People’s sensitivity is part of their nature—even if it could be changed, it’s extremely unlikely it could be changed on command.

Comment #343: Hector B.  on  06/17  at  01:58 PM

Agreed, purpleshoes; however, I’ve found that any time any rape survivor discusses having been raped, it is assumed that the mention is loaded with emotion (rather than a simple factual accounting of events), and so they are told to stop being such whiny cunts and shut the fuck up; why aren’t they OVER it already it was, like, last week, which was AGES ago, so on and so forth.

It’s impossible to name yourself as having been raped without being treated as though you’re automatically simply trying to get sympathy; no, whenever someone makes a joke about violently raping someone or makes the comment that so-and-so can’t be raped because they always want it, bringing up the fact that rape isn’t funny because it happens to people, and showing yourself as exhibit A, is surely just pandering for politically correct sympathy.

No, I’ve never been accused of being insufficiently broken, even though I have gone through phases of wondering if I am.  It’s simply an automatic, “God, shut up and stop whining about being raped already!  I mean, it happens to men, too, and you don’t see men wandering around bringing up rape randomly!”  (Except in jokes.)

So, kind of agree, but I still think that it’s far more skewed towards the whiny bitchez needing to just STFU about it already.

Comment #344: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  02:06 PM

They’re told to “man up” about it, generally speaking, and to shut the hell up about having been raped

Really?  That would be brutal.

I’m remembering a discussion either here or maybe at Shakesville that was about reactions people got to telling their personal stories about sexual assault.  And the original post expressed discomfort at reactions that skewed in the other direction:  people who would say, “Oh my God, you’re the strongest person I know, I can’t imagine what you must be going through.”  I was very surprised that that was supposed to be the wrong kind of reaction too, that it was (supposedly) a kind of excessive and self-gratifying identification with the actual person affected.  But there was a loud chorus of reactions expressing frustration and even indignation with how often it would happen.  (The other wrong reaction that particularly irked people was, “Tell me who did this to you, and I’ll kick his ass.”)

Comment #345: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:13 PM

I think that you’re conflating the feminist blogosphere with the rest of the world, FlipYrWhig.  If you get out of feminist forums, you will, sure, get the very occasional, “Oh my god, you must be, like, Wonder Woman,” but when you have this conversation in most places - especially most male-dominated spaces (the INTP fora in which I participate have a strong tendency towards misogyny in general) - you will get the, “Women just don’t shut up about being raped.”

Other violent crimes are treated like tragedies, however.

Comment #346: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  02:18 PM

I’m having trouble letting go of this.  It really bothers me that anyone who talked about rape would be told to STFU.

Comment #347: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:19 PM

Magis, thanks, that was not an exchange I was expecting to end with a compliment. See, this is the conversation I wish that we were having instead of this endless debate on how safe people should be from individual, personal associations with bad memories - how we constructively discuss these really freaking upsetting subjects that affect all of us. I feel like going after someone for not wanting to discuss sexual violence bluntly is less helpful or interesting than hearing people’s reasons for wanting to discuss sexual violence bluntly - one’s just reaction and tends to pile on to people who are on the vulnerable end of things, and one’s proactively marking out the space for the conversation the people on this blog want to have. I mean, our ability to pile on on cue is not what differentiates us from other blogular discourse, ne? And there definitely are things that do.

Comment #348: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  02:21 PM

Other violent crimes are treated like tragedies, however.

I’ve been researching old tragedies for a long time.  You know what’s probably the most common plot point?  Rape.  (It’s either that or usurpation, and that doesn’t come up as much these days.)

Comment #349: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:22 PM

INTPagan, I am disappointed for my myers-briggs type. I wonder if ESFJ forums have less misogyny. They probably have more “you know what those men are like gosh darn can’t fold socks” jokes? If I’m going to sterotype?

Comment #350: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  02:25 PM

I think that you’re conflating the feminist blogosphere with the rest of the world, FlipYrWhig

Oh, well, I would hasten to say that I didn’t mean the biggest problem with talking about rape _in general_, _in the world_ was that people were too sympathetic about it—just that excessively sympathetic reactions do get called out in feminist and progressive spaces, so I see where Amanda is coming from about finding some reactions cloying rather than helpful.

Comment #351: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:26 PM

purpleshoes, why am I not surprised at that tidbit of hidden information?

And misogyny is going to be inherent in any personality type, but, actually, I would expect it to be more prevalent in Ts since they are going to be less likely to consider the impact of their words on others.  They have no logical reason to consider the fact that society has implanted one set of subjective criteria (the inferiority of women) that they could challenge with another (equality).  (ESFJs would probably be as likely to hang on because of the SJ need to uphold the status quo.  I also have my doubts that they would have any sort of online community since they would be too busy being, I dunno, familial, sorry to any ESFJs here.)

I’m going through the forum right now to see if there’s anything I can cut and paste since the page is members-only.  It’s the yahoo group “INTP-type”, for anyone who is curious; you can simply search the messages for “rape”; the thread is the first to come up.

If the problem isn’t disbelief, Flip (I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not), please let me know so that I don’t provide evidence here.  Yes, cloying, “You are such a delicate flower!” responses can be harmful.  However, I would say that seven out of ten responses are along the lines of STFU where three out of ten or so are, “My goodness no one has ever survived such as terrible thing, since rape is the worst thing that can happen since sex is evil and women are pure.”

Comment #352: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  02:31 PM

I’m not being sarcastic, and I’m surprised and sorry if I’ve come across that way.  I’m more pissed off than anything else.

Comment #353: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:37 PM

(The thing about tragedy was sarcastic, but not at you.  If any crime was ever tragic as in “the basis for a literary work that calls itself a tragedy,” it’s rape.)

Comment #354: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  02:40 PM

Actually, although it’s about a different subject, the “HOLY SHIT… GUYS… PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED!” from xkcd is the appropriate one for this thread.

What’s triggering for one person is cathartic for another. What one person experiences as a “safe space” another experiences as “walking on eggshells.” That’s why it’s important that Shakesville (or a similar site) survives the current blogwar—in its absence, people who need the safe space approach would be out in the cold. Pandagon cannot be the site that they need, since it’s aimed more at people who scream a defiant “fuck you” at the world’s monsters instead of trying to lock them outside. Neither approach is better, or worse, and that was the entire point of the original post (at least, as I read it).

Comment #355: Llelldorin  on  06/17  at  02:48 PM

Wow, I’m glad Kogi is such a believer in Safe Space. “

And I said that..um where exactly?

Again, I will spell it out.

I. don’t. care. if. there. are.trigger.warnings.or.not.


Got that part? Good.


Dismissing. people. who. have. triggers. by. telling. them. they. are. too. sensitive. or. weak. is. fucking. wrong.

Now, WHERE does that say or imply anything at all about safe spaces or mandatory trigger warnings or any of the other crap people insist on using to ignore the fact that some posters here have dismissed people who do have triggers?

Comment #356: Kogi  on  06/17  at  02:53 PM

Well, and the original personality test questions were honestly blatantly gendered; the feeling versus thinking questions were one of the places where I will absolutely concede that the Myers-Briggs reflects learned behaviors instead of some sort of inborn predilection. Remember that one about cooking meals that everyone present will like? Not to derail the conversation entirely. But it is disappointing that the group of people who test as being able to think dispassively and broadly about the systems in which they find themselves situated would sometimes use said traits to be douchebags.

ESFJs are probably busy posting to apartmentherapy about their coordinated window treatments. I live with an SFJ at the moment. The place is very well-decorated and I am constantly confused.

Comment #357: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  02:56 PM

It’s okay, Flip (I couldn’t tell, so I was looking to be safe).  I understand.

I just read back over the thread, and want to show it here just to demonstrate what seems to be a normal response, though.

It started with this sentence, which was prompted by my statement that his opinions were being easily eviscerated by list members:

Hi [My Name] the only “eviscerate” cumming from me is the preseminal fluid ejaculating at the thought of our first night of wedded bliss.

I responded, exchanges were had, and it came to this (a lot of it is incomplete sentences because of where snipping happened earlier on):

Me: you will simply insist on being a creepy bastard who views women as objects

Him: [My Name] is this your idea of foreplay? I do like it when I get called dirty
names.

Me:...reducing them to nothing more than body parts.

Him: Can you tell me which part is on my mind right now?

Me: close to being rapist behaviour

Him: Do you really fantasize about getting raped?

This was after he explicitly made a statement about being aroused by the thought of having sex with me unwillingly.

And it ended up with this:

Me: If you think I’m oversensitive, try having been raped.

Someone Else: Don’t play that card, it ain’t cool. I’ve known GUYS that were raped too.
Might want to try moving on sometime. It sounds like you’re still carrying
around plenty of anger about it if you need to use it as an excuse for your
behavior. (meant in the nicest possible manner)

Just my opinion, take it for what it’s worth.

Another example on another INTP list:

Me: Seriously?  For posterity’s sake, that’s the biggest load of misogynistic horseshit I’ve read in my entire life. (about his statement that women should please men without regard for their own desires)

A) My statements don’t have so much to do with my having experienced sexual violence as actually both having paid attention to the negative messages sent to men through pornography and media and having noticed that different people actually have different sexual tastes.  It’s not rocket science or some special rape-victim hoodoo that I’m practicing here; it’s simple paying attention.  Every woman should find a dude who actually cares about her pleasure, even if they weren’t raped first.  And, if my dude changes in that respect, I would leave him, because we both matter in this relationship.

Him: haha…you have NO CLUE about what I do…who I am….or what I like.  And
I’d just argue your response is typical rape victim man hating….It’s ok
for the guy to compromise…but the woman shouldn’t have to?

That is the much more common opinion I’ve encountered.

Comment #358: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  03:03 PM

Dismissing. people. who. have. triggers. by. telling. them. they. are. too. sensitive. or. weak. is. fucking. wrong.

Well, yes.  But I don’t think that happened very much here, and I don’t think very many of those comments were cheered on.  And I don’t think they were representative of the overall tenor of the blog towards such issues.

And I don’t think those of us who are still participating in this thread are the people who acted that way.  It’s like you have a dog who knocked over the trash while you were out, and so you started yelling, but the dog isn’t even there anymore to learn from your reaction.  (I sort of did that too by talking about you behind your back, which I shouldn’t have done.)  I have to think that being a big ball of rage lashing out in all directions doesn’t seem helpful to a discussion about respect, sensitivity, and triggering.

Comment #359: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  03:08 PM

@ INTPagan:  That’s some twisted shit.  I truly hope it’s not typical among the general population, or I’d despair…

Certain online forums seem to draw out twisted people.  Years ago I had a guy start posting personal threats about my family and (I’m pretty sure) calling my house in the middle of the night because he didn’t like how I called out his racism on a sports group on Usenet.  It turned out he was an actual honest-to-God hardcore racist felon.  That was wild.

Comment #360: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  03:16 PM

Flip:

Well, there’s no way to complain about Shakesville on Shakesville, because even constructive criticism is tantamount to either giving Melissa more work or devaluing the whole category of women’s labor.

That’s probably a bit exaggerated, but it’s what I meant about blogs (not necessarily Shakesville) where you can indeed be banned for a dissenting opinion however much the people in charge insist they won’t do that. It happens when people in positions of authority in blogs don’t (won’t? can’t?) separate tone and content, so polite, respectful disagreement becomes impossible because disagreeing is impolite and disrespectful, and polite, respectful questioning becomes impossible because to question is to disagree.

Flip (different comment)

(It’s either that or usurpation, and that doesn’t come up as much these days.)

Tell that to the birthers ...

Comment #361: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/17  at  03:27 PM

I think that a derail wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world in the sniping; I’m sure it’ll continue around.

Well, and the original personality test questions were honestly blatantly gendered; the feeling versus thinking questions were one of the places where I will absolutely concede that the Myers-Briggs reflects learned behaviors instead of some sort of inborn predilection.

Pretty much.  Apparently both genders split 60-40 in the ways you would expect, and I would wager that this is due to heavy socialization into gender-normative behaviour.  I tested strongly F until I became an adult, and then, miraculously, made a drastic swing over to T.  I would wager that, without socialization and the enforcement of gender norms, F and T would be fifty-fifty in both genders.

Remember that one about cooking meals that everyone present will like?

Which really could be addressed in a much less gender-normative fashion, such as, “When making decisions for a group of people, are you concerned with the desires of everyone in the group?”

Not to derail the conversation entirely. But it is disappointing that the group of people who test as being able to think dispassively and broadly about the systems in which they find themselves situated would sometimes use said traits to be douchebags.

Oh, anyone of any personality type can find a way to use the traits to be douchebags.  I’m not any more surprised ot run into an INTP douchebag than I am to run into an ESFJ douchebag; douchebaggery knows no type.  It just means that said douchebag functions similarly to me, not that they are exempt from douchebaghood.

ESFJs are probably busy posting to apartmentherapy about their coordinated window treatments. I live with an SFJ at the moment. The place is very well-decorated and I am constantly confused.

While I’m sure the organization is wonderful, and it’s probably good to be with someone who balances you (having a reversed order of functions), I have never been able to have a stable relationship with someone not in the INXP family.  I wouldn’t know what to do with someone who had a spotless, well-decorated house - or, more likely, who expected me to keep one, since I am the one with the vagina.

Comment #362: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  03:34 PM

Flip:

Meh; I’d believe it’s representative of more normal views than people would care to admit - it’s the general view in most Internet forums, and people, while unwilling to say what they really think in person, where rape is unlikely to come up (being rather impolite in most conversation), will tell it how they really feel it to a bunch of words without a face across a computer screen.  I doubt they would talk to me like that in person, but that doesn’t make it any less sincere, or any less common.

I think you maybe had bad luck with the crazy racist stalker, though; sorry that happened.  Gack.

Comment #363: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  03:36 PM

INTPagan, we’re mutually patient roommates, luckily, not SOs (if we were SOs I think it would be less neutral when I’m perplexed about why the living room needs to be burnt toffee instead of dirty white and why it’s good when the towels match the shower curtain). I lived with another INTP for a long time and I’m going to have to mature some before I do that again, because we were very content as roommates but the place was a wreck and no one would visit us. (Seriously, my teenage brother would go next door to use the bathroom. So sad.)

Also, that forum quotation is horrifying and I think it’s also a good example of the things that some of us think of when people tell us we don’t have a right to not be upset on the internet - no one here would pull that kind of shit without at least bringing down the banhammer on themselves, but I think I tend to associate that with “having a sense of humor” and “not being so sensitive” and thus kneejerk hard whenever non-creeps start using those terms.

Comment #364: purpleshoes  on  06/17  at  03:58 PM

Amanda’s point in this post was interesting, and the issue of trigger warnings is a complex one, because everyone’s needs will be different. I think blogs have the right to determine their own rules and expect that readers will be able to determine whether it is the right one for them. Since people have different needs, they can find a blog that works for them.

But it’s also not a bad thing to consider other people’s feelings, and to be courteous. I suppose this isn’t really about trigger warnings but communication in general. You have the right to say whatever you want, but others have the right to disagree with you. At the same time, being considerate of others has to be reasonably balanced with expressing your opinions and not restricting yourself. Especially when these topics are so important and need to be discussed, even if they are difficult ones.

At any rate, I enjoy Pandagon and find that it suits my needs. I consider myself a sensitive person, but at the same time I realize that no one else has the obligation to make my time on the Internet comfortable. That’s my responsibility alone.

Comment #365: ArtOfMe  on  06/17  at  04:22 PM

Meh; I’d believe it’s representative of more normal views than people would care to admit

Brrr.  I’m not even an optimist; I’m generally pretty misanthropic.  But that’s a case where I’d hope that even the worst human beings in the world would at least have _some_ sympathy.  It feels so fundamental to basic humanity.  Aargh.

That stalker guy ended up in jail for cybercrimes.  He seemed to have a lot of pathologies.  And the idea that they’d be exacerbated by things like which players should be in the starting lineup for a sports team… I think that was a sui generis situation.

@ purpleshoes:  I didn’t think that this discussion particularly revolved around humor and humorlessness, although many similar discussions do.  I think it was more about how community standards for “safety” can become contradictory and may feel arbitrary or inconsistent.  Instead of “not being so sensitive,” I think the discussion was about how demonstrating sensitivity is something that takes place over a very murky terrain.  If deferring to the highest level of sensitivity in the group means intense scrutiny and policing, the result may be well-intentioned but claustrophobic.  And it _still_ might be “better” that way for certain groups, which is what the Shakesville comment policy appeared to prescribe.

Comment #366: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  04:28 PM

Well, yes.  But I don’t think that happened very much here, and I don’t think very many of those comments were cheered on.  And I don’t think they were representative of the overall tenor of the blog towards such issues. “

It doesn’t need to have happened very much. That’s like saying well it was only a little bit of racism or a little bit of sexism and it’s not like it was cheered on or anything.

Falls pretty flat, IMO.

“have to think that being a big ball of rage lashing out in all directions doesn’t seem helpful to a discussion about respect, sensitivity, and triggering. “


You might want to ask yourself if I’m actually full of rage or if you’re reading that in YOUR voice and have just made an assumption, then rolled with it.

Comment #367: Kogi  on  06/17  at  04:33 PM

You might want to ask yourself if I’m actually full of rage or if you’re reading that in YOUR voice and have just made an assumption, then rolled with it.

Ummm….sounds full of rage or anger to me.

Comment #368: Magis  on  06/17  at  04:50 PM

It doesn’t need to have happened very much.

If your point is that It is a generalized or typical problem here, then I’d say, yes, it does need to have happened very much.  I don’t think the “stop being so sensitive” reaction was prevalent.  It often is in similar discussions.  I truly don’t think it was here.

And as for rage, note that your first comment in this thread—hundreds of comments down, after a lot of people had already apparently said their piece and moved on—was

“Where are all the posts jumping down the asses of fuckbuckets calling people who might need trigger warnings too sensitive?

The fuck kinda shit IS that?”

Look back at the hostility of your comments.  What kind of response are you looking for, and from whom?  I’m not even saying that righteous rage is bad, just that it seems askew to the purpose of discussing properly attuned sensitivity.

Comment #369: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  05:40 PM

Well sorry to burst your bubble, but that’s not rage or anger. That maybe YOU if you’re in some sort of rage, but it’s not me.  The posters who silence others by telling them they’re too sensitive are shitstains, IMO. What you read was utter disgust, and since those posters were so very certain they liked the vulgarity and irreverence, I used it myself. The response leads me to believe that no, it’s not really all about that, it was about getting the opportunity to mock certain people as weak or too sensitive. Or ignore that they were mocked and shat upon.


And after a few years of lurking here, yeah I’ve noticed a trend. When anyone disagrees with amanda or the blog owners it turns into a snark fest where people who claim to be leftist leaning or feminist behave in the exact manner they claim to hate in the name of defending the author of the topic disagreed on.

Normally I just stop reading and check back months later. This week my ability to remain silent while bullshit is flung at people who just like the idea of a trigger warning (just LIKE the idea mind you, they haven’t demanded anyone change their blog rules no matter how frequently that lie is trotted out )is missing.


I don’t really expect a response from people who pull that shit. Knowing I didn’t just stand by and say nothing is more important to me than they every will be.

Comment #370: Kogi  on  06/17  at  06:33 PM

Ummm….sounds full of rage or anger to me. “

The hot second I require you to define my emotion to me, I’ll let you know. Until then, get your ears checked.

Comment #371: Kogi  on  06/17  at  06:37 PM

What it reminds me of is when people are racist or sexist and try to mask it with being “edgy”. Oh look, we’re not really treating you like shit for having triggers, we’re just being vulgar and irreverent!

Comment #372: Kogi  on  06/17  at  06:39 PM

it was about getting the opportunity to mock certain people as weak or too sensitive.

Better stuff some more straw in your argument; it’s pretty beat up.

No one that I’ve seen here made the value judgment that some people are too sensitive. But most people are sensitive to something, and some to more than one thing. The perfectly confident, unflappable individual does not exist.

Comment #373: Hector B.  on  06/17  at  06:51 PM

Looking WAY back at EGHead’s first post in this thread - it’s still dripping with passive-agression, meanness, and it seems obvious that EGHead had not, at that point, really read the blog post. The goalposts moved later on in the discussion (I’d argue to a more interesting, productive debate), but what EGHead said, initially, was “People who don’t accomodate me are obviously just too lazy to do so, and cannot possibly have other motivations that aren’t all about me.” This is an arrogant, thoughtless stance to take, and it pissed people off. That does justify being snarky towards EGHead, but doesn’t justify tearing down an entire group of people. About this, Kogi is right.

Comment #374: HonestB  on  06/17  at  06:56 PM

Kogi:

Yeah, that’s pretty much the feeling I get from some of the posts, too.

And the implication that a trigger warning is succumbing to pressure to be “broken” is an implication that those who need trigger warnings are “broken”.  That is where I get that.

However, again, this is her blog, and I haven’t seen anyone here who says otherwise.  I don’t feel the need for trigger warnings here, and I’m not going to suddenly get up in arms that they’re not used, but yes, some of the commenters are saying some things that sound pretty ugly when you boil them down.  ::shrugs::

Comment #375: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  06:58 PM

INTPagan:

Oh, anyone of any personality type can find a way to use the traits to be douchebags.  I’m not any more surprised to run into an INTP douchebag than I am to run into an ESFJ douchebag; douchebaggery knows no type.

I saw a list of famous people who were suppposedly the same “type” as I am, and I realized “Hm, a lot of these people have reputations for being kinda douchey.”

Comment #376: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/17  at  06:58 PM

Pretty much, Hershele.  What type are you?

And INTPs, on the whole, with the tendency to be interested in logic and theoretical stuff, are not as inclined to be interested in interpersonal interactions excepting the sociological implications.  I am very interested in sociology on the whole, which is part of why women’s studies, feminism, and like things interest me, but I am also borderline F, which makes me more inclined to have the idealist obsession with human rights and justice (and there is probably some shadow SJ in there as well).  I love discussing theoretical stuff with other INTPs, love discussion sociology with the ones who are interested, but find it disconcerting whenever they respond with visceral inferior extraverted feeling to the implication that maybe societal structures are something to be challenged.  (They tend to be either very strongly on the side of human rights or very scornful of the idea.)  There’s also a very strong Libertarian contingent within the type.

Comment #377: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/17  at  07:07 PM

INTPagan - the classic example of “not traumatized enough” is the woman who was raped by Mike Tyson.  The fact that she performed in a pagent the next day was taken as proof that she was not “really” raped.  This is all too common in aquaintance rape stituations.  People who display insufficient trauma risk being called liars.

Comment #378: an anoymous kate  on  06/17  at  07:26 PM

Hostile disgust, hostile rage, call it what you will, the semantics aren’t worth arguing over for me.  I keep asking you to point to instances of mockery and shitting-upon, and you never really do it, just cite it as the reason why you started unloading.  A lot of people said some version of “anything can be a trigger” or “‘lame’ isn’t really a slur,” and maybe those were dismissive in their disagreement, but I don’t know if I’d say they were mocking.  IMHO the most mocking comment was by Creepy Doll on 6/16 at 3:48 PM.  The remark about mentioning cutting or self-injury as a form of emotional blackmail was out of line by my personal standards too.  But I don’t think what HonestB has now called “tearing down an entire group of people” really happened.

Comment #379: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  07:28 PM

(Sorry, the last was @ Kogi)

Comment #380: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  07:28 PM

““There’s something very, very emotionally unhealthy about people who get literally hurt by what they read on the internet”” (if something triggers you on teh internets there’s something wrong with you))


““I am more offended at the notion that I require special acknowledgment of my issues”” (people who need trigger warnings are wanting special treatment)

““he concept of a “trigger” has become increasingly watered-down as it moved from therapy and books on PTSD or addiction to internet groups to pretty much becoming everyday vernacular (or at least internet vernacular). Triggers are supposed to be pretty specific to individual experiences, and therefore avoiding them is impossible.”” (they asked for it by not successfully avoiding triggers…IF they’re actually triggered and not just watering down their feelings to get their own way)

“you can’t expect the entire world to accommodate you and stop painting their walls blue,” ((no one has asked for that in any way)


““Well, I’ve had some people in my life commit suicide, so I want that added to the list.  I’m also somewhat claustrophobic so if you wouldn’t mind adding that, I’d be grateful.  As a matter of fact, I get severe ass pains every time someone says Republican, so, if you wouldn’t mind….

Sorry to be blunt but if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.  “”((again, its your own damn fault for being triggered and hey, I’ll add mocking triggers to the list to dismiss you! Ass pains..republicans..yeah that’s mocking)


““Why not make your own blog with your own rules instead of whining that someone else isn’t doing it your way, which of course is the one true way? “” ((evidently, admitting you have triggers and appreciate trigger warnings is whining))


Shall I go on?

Comment #381: Kogi  on  06/17  at  08:20 PM

I suppose I’d say that there’s a difference between mocking (A), trigger warnings on blogs; and mocking (B), actual people’s actual triggers.  Most of those are IMHO the former, not the latter. 

The former says “People can be triggered by so many things that can’t possibly be anticipated, ergo any labeling policy on triggers is doomed to fail for somebody, and thus the whole thing is pointless and maybe even condescending because it treats all readers as extremely fragile.”  Thus, the warnings themselves are mockable.  (I don’t know if I agree, but that’s I think what the argument is.) 

The latter says “I think you’re lying or exaggerating about what triggers you and to what degree, probably for emotional manipulation, so run along now.”  My sense is that you have been reacting as though (B) was happening a lot here, particularly to EGHead, which would be like INTPagan’s experience in talking about rape.  I think (A) may have been happening, but (B) not so much.

For what it’s worth, I don’t even have an investment in the “trigger warning” discussion, except that I don’t think that it’s right to react to a whole text that contains a “triggering” element as though the whole purpose of the text is to trigger, which is why I started a digression about rape plots in literature.

But thanks for continuing to dialogue.

Comment #382: FlipYrWhig  on  06/17  at  08:52 PM

long comment i wrote is gone.

short version: months ago, jackass fucktard troll showed up, posting hateful vile shit under other people’s names.
he posted a RAPE THREAT against Michelle Obama under mine.
i flipped out, i sent a long (freaked out ranting) email to Auguste.
the mods investigated, took it seriously. erased ALL the comments that were sketchy. issued a PUBLIC APPOLOGY and a complete explanation in a blog post, made registration required so it would never happen again. i also got a personal appology, and i assume everyone else who had their name jacked got one too.

THAT is a Safe Space. a place where when something happens, the mods PAY ATTENTION AND FIX IT. where even I, who is not friends with any of the mods, is not popular, not in the “in crowd”, am taken seriously.
i would rather have a place that doesn’t post trigger warnings for everything, but takes every non-troll commenter (and even some trolls, IMO) seriously, than have Trigger Warnings every but am totally ignored because i am not part of the “in group”

Just sayin’.

Comment #383: denelian  on  06/17  at  09:17 PM

Concern trolls and purity trolls and “I’m a better feminist than you are except you aren’t a REAL feminist and you are lying and I get to say so” blah blah trolls.

Yawn.

Comment #384: Ms Kate  on  06/17  at  11:30 PM

denelian, I just have to get into the spirit of the thread and be a grammar troll:

<u>even I, who am not a friend of any of the mods</u>

Seriously, what you wrote accords with my experience here, FWIW grin

Comment #385: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/18  at  12:45 AM

Kogi, you can go on, but none of what you posted really makes sense, in an active discussion sort of means.

Comment #386: Crissa  on  06/18  at  01:04 AM

I think the proof is in the pudding—I haven’t been triggered by any of the posts here, because I think Amanda and the other Pandagonians write in a way that doesn’t spring disgusting scary stuff on me unawares.

INTPagan:  “No, I’ve never been accused of being insufficiently broken, even though I have gone through phases of wondering if I am.  It’s simply an automatic, “God, shut up and stop whining about being raped already!  I mean, it happens to men, too, and you don’t see men wandering around bringing up rape randomly!””

I think this dynamic labels you as broken but not sufficiently aware of it.  So it’s not “you’re not broken enough.”  It’s “you’re not admitting your brokenness.”  Related but not the same.

This view also generally posits that only those who haven’t been raped can talk about it sensibly, because if you’ve been raped you’re unable to discuss rape logically, or dispassionately, or rationally.  In fact your ability to discuss anything about men and women or the interaction thereof logically is questioned, because you’re pretending that you don’t think all men are horrible rapists but you can’t help it, and that thought poisons any attempt at rational thought.  Hence that other comment about your being a typical rape victim who’s so damaged you can’t discuss relationships between men and women.  You’re damaged and so should shut up.

I run an INTJ list.  Being INTJ may be even more of a handy excuse for being an asshole than being INTP.  Some people don’t get the difference between “I don’t understand or care about other people’s feelings” and “I relish making people angry so I pretend not to care how they feel, then poke fun at them for being dirty FEEEEEEELERS.”

Comment #387: oldfeminist  on  06/18  at  02:34 AM

“This is all too common in aquaintance rape stituations.  People who display insufficient trauma risk being called liars. “

Homicide investigations, to, An Anonymous Kate.  There is little out there that is guaranteed to rapidly draw police attention to you than to keep your shit together in the face of death; as far as the homicide dicks are concerned You’re It and they don’t need to look any further.

Ask Robert Baltovich:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baltovich

Comment #388: seeker6079  on  06/18  at  09:36 AM

I was laughing to myself this morning at the bus stop because the preacher from the local hellfire and homophobia church was out using some of the same sorts of tactics/“arguments” that Kogi has been using here:

Such as:

You can’t be a christian if you don’t believe the same things we do
There is only one world view, and you will go to hell if you don’t believe in it
Escallating verbal abuse about being unfit for God
If you say you won’t make our worldview your law, it is the same as hating us
If our worldview is not the rule, we are persecuted

etc.

Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, rightwing or “ultra only one true feminist” flavor or evangelical vegan, etc.

Comment #389: Ms Kate  on  06/18  at  11:25 AM

I think this dynamic labels you as broken but not sufficiently aware of it.  So it’s not “you’re not broken enough.” It’s “you’re not admitting your brokenness.” Related but not the same.

To a degree, but they’re not saying that I’m not admitting my brokenness; they are simply acting as if I did the equivalent of breaking down in tears and smashing a lamp on the head of every male around.  They’re pretty much ignoring the entire approach I took and pretending I had the nervous breakdown anyway.  (Not to mention that the response, in general, would have been highly inappropriate even if I HAD had that response, but, again, it’s something I expect out of a group of Ts who are very prone to say, “Oh, AH-HA!  I CAUGHT YOU BEEING A FEELY FEELERZORZ LOL!  RAPE HA!”)

This view also generally posits that only those who haven’t been raped can talk about it sensibly, because if you’ve been raped you’re unable to discuss rape logically, or dispassionately, or rationally.  In fact your ability to discuss anything about men and women or the interaction thereof logically is questioned, because you’re pretending that you don’t think all men are horrible rapists but you can’t help it, and that thought poisons any attempt at rational thought.  Hence that other comment about your being a typical rape victim who’s so damaged you can’t discuss relationships between men and women.  You’re damaged and so should shut up.

I do agree with this completely, only I think they skipped straight to the, “YOU’RE BEING SO FEELY!  GET THERAPY!”  Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.00.  It had nothing to do with my not properly admitting my brokenness; to them saying (because I don’t view it as something that I “admitted” like it’s something to be ashamed of) that you’ve been raped is tantamount to reenacting it in public.  I can understand how, in a group of introverted thinkers, voicing something that is considered so private and emotionally charged can be responded to in such a fashion, but only when allowing for extreme myopia when it comes to the variations in human experience.

I run an INTJ list.  Being INTJ may be even more of a handy excuse for being an asshole than being INTP.  Some people don’t get the difference between “I don’t understand or care about other people’s feelings” and “I relish making people angry so I pretend not to care how they feel, then poke fun at them for being dirty FEEEEEEELERS.”

I would agree; INTJs seem to generally be bigger assholes because of the extraverted thinking thing, although this is far from the rule.  And it’s kind of hilarious, because I encounter the attitude you mention among all kinds of NTs, and it’s bizarre to me; it just seems to be such a visceral Feeling thing, to want to evoke an emotional response to mock.  (Not to mention that a disdain for Feeling is an emotion - you know, one of those dirty things they want to pretend we shouldn’t have, as if we didn’t evolve with a limbic region and a two-lobed brain for a reason.)

Right now on one of the lists there are a couple of INTJs (one of whom says so, one of whom apparently tests P but definitely presents J) who are pretty much exactly engaging in that (they don’t bother to make arguments, just toss ad hominems as evidence of the opposing party’s wrongness - and it’s in defense of Ayn Rand, unsurprisingly) and who seem befuddled by everyone there simply doing the same thing back, only ironically.  “Twit!”  “Oh.  Well, I guess you’re a twit, too, twit.”  “Only a twit would say that!”  “Um, okay, twit?”

Comment #390: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/18  at  12:15 PM

Oh, and, out of curiosity, what INTJ list?  I’ve been a member on a few before.

Comment #391: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/18  at  12:17 PM

Amanda, I don’t think that putting trigger warnings on something necessarily automatically excludes a group of non PTSD-having people, and not all articles about rape include a thorough description on it.
I don’t understand why people are saying this is “PC”—people say the same thing when you point out that they are being racist or sexist, so so far it seems to me like an excuse to not care about other peoples’ feelings.
Maybe I don’t like some things about Shakesville, and I agree that it’s up to the blogger what the policies of their blog are, but I’ve been seeing a bunch of blogs lately talking about how “PC” putting trigger warnings on things is, but I’ve always seen it as common courtesy. For an example, if I post the picture of a dead, bloody, decapitated woman on a post I write, I would post a trigger warning. If I post the descriptive account of a woman who saw her best friend raped, murdered, and then raped some more, I would post a trigger warning. Because those are things that could be HUGELY triggering to someone with PTSD, and even if someone doesn’t have it, at least they will know not to look at it while they are eating. It’s not about telling people, “You are too weak to read this, go away!”, it’s about telling them that there’s something that might send them into a panic attack (whether they are in therapy or not) and giving them the choice to go read it now or go back to it when they feel more ready.
I understand if someone doesn’t want to put trigger warnings and so on into their blog posts, I just don’t understand how they could disagree with it. That was my point.

Comment #392: BeetleBlack  on  06/18  at  02:55 PM

INTPagan:

I would agree; INTJs seem to generally be bigger assholes because of the extraverted thinking thing, although this is far from the rule.  And it’s kind of hilarious, because I encounter the attitude you mention among all kinds of NTs, and it’s bizarre to me; it just seems to be such a visceral Feeling thing, to want to evoke an emotional response to mock.

Oh yeah, the NTs who say they’re not emotional and then get so excited or angry about things.  It’s really pretty amusing.  I think they equate emotional with sad or crying, because those are female emotions.

NTs of all kinds tend to forget or ignore or not really believe that N is an irrational function.  Feeling is actually a rational (comparing and measuring) function, just one they don’t particularly care for.

I have a theory (which is mine) that introverted Feeling in NTs is often misinterpreted as introverted iNtuition, because they both come from mysterious origins fully formed and seem “so right.”  Since the N function tends to come up with good stuff that isn’t rationally worked-out yet, it doesn’t raise any alarm bells when a seemingly great idea that makes you happy doesn’t have supporting evidence.  Then that extraverted T gets to work rationalizing rather than testing against reality (because reality is discovered using an S function, ew dirty Sensers).

Comment #393: oldfeminist  on  06/18  at  03:09 PM

Oops, sorry, forgot to add the list info.  The list is INTJ-Open

It’s not too rambunctious most of the time, I think partly because I immediately challenge the typical crowing BS from baby Randians rather than letting it become a Objectifest.  Everyone is welcome, archives are open and linked on that URL if you’re curious.

Comment #394: oldfeminist  on  06/18  at  03:16 PM

Find where I say anyone here isn’t a good feminist or isn’t a feminist yadda yadda.

Pointing out that some posters here should damn well know what victim blaming lookings like AS left leaning people AND as feminists in no way says ” you’re not a feminist because I say so” and you know it.

Comment #395: Kogi  on  06/18  at  04:34 PM

Pointing out that people who claim victim blaming where there isn’t any to bully or passive-aggressively manipulate people is not victim blaming.  It simply isn’t the same.

It is also triggering to those of us who grew up “walking on eggshells”, those of us who were constantly expected to be responsible for the angry explosions of adults around us, and those who lived in the shadow of what is often termed “weak tyrants”.

Comment #396: Ms Kate  on  06/18  at  04:41 PM

Sorry Ms Kate, I see it pretty clearly as victim blaming when people flat out say if you’re triggered it’s your own fault. Or if you’re triggered by something on the internet there’s something very very wrong with you.


Explain how that isn’t victim blaming.

Comment #397: Kogi  on  06/18  at  05:56 PM

As for passive aggressive manipulation, it’s pretty passive aggressive to imply the “you’re just imagining things or seeing something that isn’t there” in order to continue victim blaming.


It’s pretty sad when your argument mirrors white privilege excuses.

Comment #398: Kogi  on  06/18  at  06:02 PM

Kogi, take a breath and try to answer things in complete sentences, built into paragraphs.  Not just fragments blurted out in defense of some point or other.

So far, I still don’t know what most of what you’ve written is supposed to mean.  It sounds angry.  Inchoate, even.  I think you support trigger warnings and dislike that others find them to be silly and off-putting to those who the warnings are aimed at.  And I don’t feel you’ve really defined how the warnings should be used, or what they should really warn of.

So… Why all the posts?

Comment #399: Crissa  on  06/18  at  06:56 PM

I’m frankly shocked that this thread is still going, but since it is, and since my name keeps getting dragged up every third post, I might as well respond:

Kogi on 6/17 @ 7:20 PM—THANK. YOU.  I know I was never entirely in the right here, but people’s responses to me were totally mind-blowing.

denelian on 6/17 @ 8:17 PM—Unfortunately, as Kogi showed in ^ post, a lot of really ridiculously hurtful things have been said in this thread, and no mod has responded.  Granted, I didn’t report anything (even the especially vile comment by bagelsan about self-injury being emotional blackmail), but I kind of hoped I wouldn’t have to.  Apparently, that’s not how this site works, either (no judgement, just saying).

Ms. Kate (on 6/18 @ 10:25 AM, specifically)—I can’t recall one thing you’ve said on this thread that has been in anyway respectful or helpful.  You are constantly patronizing and you continue to escalate things.  It’s not helpful.

BeetleBlack on 6/18 @ 1:55, and everyone else who has popped up to agree with what I said in a more eloquent fashion—Thank you.

Crissa on 6/18 @5:56—Telling someone to take a deep breath is patronizing and unnecessary.


God I hope this thread dies now.

Comment #400: EGhead  on  06/18  at  07:18 PM

I don’t have anything left to say—I just wanted to roll the odometer over to 400 posts. 

No, one more thing… EGhead, you did ultimately end up getting dogpiled, and that shouldn’t have happened.

Comment #401: FlipYrWhig  on  06/18  at  08:37 PM

I’m with Flip on EGhead.

I’m sure any further type theory stuff can be discussed on-list since I joined, Oldfem.  Thanks for the link.  (I’ll prolly lurk until someone posts.)

For the record, Kogi?  I agree with you.

Comment #402: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/18  at  08:41 PM

a lot of really ridiculously hurtful things have been said in this thread, and no mod has responded

I don’t think anyone who mods the blog even knows that the thread is still going on.  I’ve never seen one this long.  Amanda last posted on 6/16 at 9:50 PM, and the worst comment was after that (and Kogi hadn’t even shown up yet).  Probably a third of the thread has never been seen by a moderator.

Comment #403: FlipYrWhig  on  06/18  at  08:56 PM

I think the difference, though, is that the hurtful things that have been said on this thread haven’t been deliberately triggering, they haven’t been hateful, and they haven’t needed to be moderated.  In my opinion, moderation on comments really needs to be limited to comments that either violate the stick rule (although your mileage may vary on that) and/or truly hateful comments that have the sole intention of getting a rise out of the target.  While hurtful comments have been made here, and while I may not personally appreciate the tone, I don’t want to see these comments moderated because no one has been dehumanized, objectified, or deliberately triggered (an example of a deliberate trigger would be the comment I posted earlier where the guy said he was oozing precum thinking about raping me on our “wedding night”). 

I think trigger warnings have their place, and I think an open disdain for both the warnings and for the people who might need them is absolutely assholish, privileged behaviour.  However, I also don’t personally prefer overly moderated comments because it really does restrict dialogue, and sometimes dialogue is hurtful and insensitive and has to be to get a point across.  I like Pandagon’s comments, and no one here has said anything remotely ban-worthy, in my opinion.

This is all incredibly subjective, and let’s not lose sight of that.

Comment #404: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/18  at  09:24 PM

<u>I don’t see any real philosophical point being made in this post, I just see laziness.</u>


You have every right to let me know that it’s not worth your time to structure your blog in a way that is accessible to people with mental illnesses, or those who are just recovering from sexual assault.  Even when it’s as simple as writing two words.  But I’m kind of used to it—society has already let me know I’m not worth its time and consideration: my abuse was ignored, and my mental illness was dismissed.  I don’t know why I should expect any different from a progrkayssive blog.

I know I was never entirely in the right here, but people’s responses to me were totally mind-blowing.

Counselor, your witness.

Comment #405: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/18  at  09:32 PM

Kogi, take a breath and try to answer things in complete sentences, built into paragraphs.  Not just fragments blurted out in defense of some point or other.

So far, I still don’t know what most of what you’ve written is supposed to mean.  It sounds angry.  Inchoate, even.  I think you support trigger warnings and dislike that others find them to be silly and off-putting to those who the warnings are aimed at.  And I don’t feel you’ve really defined how the warnings should be used, or what they should really warn of.

So… Why all the posts? “


1) I’ll answer however I feel like.


2) Go back and re read. I simplified it very clearly for flip.


3)Ah. You don’t know what I mean because you haven’t bothered reading. I’ve said at least 4 times I don’t care either way in regards to trigger warnings. I didn’t speak in tongues so I’ll have to assume you didn’t see all 4ish times I’ve said that.


“So… Why all the posts? “

They’re a direct result of blatant, cruel assholish victim blaming that several posters here gleefully indulged in.

Comment #406: Kogi  on  06/18  at  11:35 PM

No, they are the result of blatant, passive aggressive and bullying behavior with the intent to control and limit conversation through semantics.

Comment #407: Ms Kate  on  06/19  at  12:02 AM

Ohboy, apparently suggesting someone complete their thought instead of blasting a serial of little less complete posts is patronizing!  I’d be banned somewhere!

Of course, a few hours later, you actually come out with a reason.  So, of the 400 comments placed, which ones are victim-blaming?

Comment #408: Crissa  on  06/19  at  12:56 AM

@ Crissa:  Actually Kogi did pick out the remarks he or she found most objectionable—they’re in the comment left on 06/17 at 07:20 PM.

Comment #409: FlipYrWhig  on  06/19  at  01:37 AM

@ Dark Avenger, c’mon, dude, and just when the dogs were finally coming off the pile…

Comment #410: FlipYrWhig  on  06/19  at  01:40 AM

Flip:  Referenced.  Those were pretty tepid.

How about Kogi’s comment, ‘And after a few years of lurking here, yeah I’ve noticed a trend. When anyone disagrees with amanda or the blog owners it turns into a snark fest where people who claim to be leftist leaning or feminist behave in the exact manner they claim to hate in the name of defending the author of the topic disagreed on.’

First, Kogi’s hardly a lurker, second… If you don’t like a comment, say something about it.  Tho honestly, it seems more like Kogi doesn’t like anything.  Not even the person who found blue rooms triggering.

Comment #411: Crissa  on  06/19  at  04:38 AM

denelian, I just have to get into the spirit of the thread and be a grammar troll:

even I, who am not a friend of any of the mods

Seriously, what you wrote accords with my experience here, FWIW

Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 06/17 at 11:45 PM

oh noes! and even worse! i am not sure how that SHOULD have been stated! “even I, who is not”? “even I, and i am not”? “Even I, not any sort of”?
sigh. my grammer just sucks today :D

trigger warnings: in my experience, and yeah YMMV - trigger warnings on most things really only cause me to look for whatever may be triggering. if that makes sense.

here at Pandagon, if there is something *really* wrong/gross/creepy, the mods may not say “trigger warning”, but they say SOMETHING (generally, they say, DO NOT LOOK AT THIS LINK. and then say - YOU LOOKED AT THE LINK YOU POOR DELUDED FOOL.)

i have only read the last 1/4, maybe of the comments, with some random others. the only really *bad*-ish sort of thing i saw was someone saying that threats to hurt oneself can be taken as emotional blackmail. and, having been a cutter (almost 4 years no marks!) i have to agree - it *can* be emotional blackmail. it isn’t always, or even often. but *any* statement that follows the pattern of “If you do X i will do Y” is passive agressive by definition.

i have not seen what i would call victim blaming. i may just not have seen them. or i may just think things like “we don’t put out trigger warnings because A) we are afraid people who don’t get triggered will think that they don’t have any *need* to look and B) because we have no way of IDing most triggers, anyway” is not victim blaming.
saying that a person can be triggered by something unknown to everyone in the universe isn’t victim blaming, i don’t think.

was there something else that was victim blaming? can someone point it out to me?

Comment #412: denelian  on  06/19  at  06:42 AM

FYW,  I’m just reminding people who began things by writing dipshit accusations in the first place.

Comment #413: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/19  at  10:32 AM

@ denelian:  Rachel, II said a few things about how reading material that _might_ be “triggering” under the Shakesville definition was a conscious choice—I’m paraphrasing here—and beyond that, the real definition of triggering (as she sees it) says it isn’t even cognitive, it’s more instantaneous and visceral.  Turn that around and it sounds a bit like, if you have “triggers,” you should know when to stop reading, so if you don’t, and you get triggered, it’s your own fault.

But I don’t know about “victim-blaming” either.  It feels a few degrees removed from that, because at no point is anyone being held responsible for the experience that made him or her have a triggering association in the first place.  _That’s_ what I’d think of as victim-blaming.

And I think Amanda’s point about how the warnings seem to presume a kind of fragility she doesn’t self-identify with is totally valid, if likewise irreconcilable with EGhead’s view that warnings are more sensitive and considerate for the people _she_ identifies with.  It doesn’t seem like there’s an obvious right answer, which takes us all the way back to Amanda’s original point about having a diversity of approaches at a variety of blogspaces.

Comment #414: FlipYrWhig  on  06/19  at  12:47 PM

Well, Flip:

I will say one thing.  If I had to pick one single ‘honest broker’ for this conversation, it would have to be you.

But, if someone comes into your house, tells you have shitty taste, asks that you repaint and threatens not to comeback unless you do and then says that if you don’t it shows that you hate them and then an invective-hurling, self-appointed defender of the universe hops in…well…you’re going to have a 400+ entry train-wreck.

Comment #415: Magis  on  06/19  at  01:11 PM

I love that asking someone for two words is tantamount to asking them to repaint their house.  While I agree I should have worded my original comments differently, I stand by the sentiments I expressed there.  I think it IS laziness to come up with rhetorical excuses not to make one’s blog more accessible; it’s easier for some people to say all the reasons they can’t do it than to just do it.  Or to admit that they just don’t care about you and your ilk as much as (fill in the blank), which is what Amanda eventually did do.  I see the alternate interpretations of what she said, and I disagree—you don’t have to pile on me again.  I promise that I will leave everyone alone and stop with sharing my (OMG) different opinions just as soon as people stop dragging my name back up.  That’s not a threat.  That is simply what I will do, because, as we have all so graciously acknowledged, this site isn’t for me.

And, denelian, awesomegreatjob on not being scarred like some of us pathetic little shits, but just because you self-injure doesn’t mean you get to speak for all of us (or parenthetically mention how it hasn’t singled YOU out for ridicule IRL).  If you had bothered to read, I did not say ‘If you do x, I’ll do y.’  I explained what I meant by triggering.  I appreciate another warm body on the pile, though.

Comment #416: EGhead  on  06/19  at  01:37 PM

Or to admit that they just don’t care about you and your ilk as much as (fill in the blank), which is what Amanda eventually did do.

It is NOT about not caring about you.  It is NOT about you.  No one said you should live in “shame cave” but you.  You said you couldn’t believe trigger warning were patronizing unless you believed that people that needed them were “pathetic.”  That is SO not true.  I can find something patronizing personally without thinking that some else would find the same advice/warning either needful or helpful. 

What you will not seem to acknolege is that for some of us confrontationalism is theraputic.  We are doing what works for us.

I do not think you are pathetic or that your need for protection is irrational or weak.  I only suggest that Pandagon may not be the best place for your needs.  Maybe someday it will.

Comment #417: Magis  on  06/19  at  02:01 PM

I love that asking someone for two words is tantamount to asking them to repaint their house.  While I agree I should have worded my original comments differently, I stand by the sentiments I expressed there.

No, you’re weren’t asking for two words, you took Amandas’s position as a “Fuck You” to you, and you started your rant as I excerpted

I think it IS laziness to come up with rhetorical excuses not to make one’s blog more accessible; it’s easier for some people to say all the reasons they can’t do it than to just do it.  Or to admit that they just don’t care about you and your ilk as much as (fill in the blank), which is what Amanda eventually did do.

Amanda is one of your ilk(if that includes having been the victim of sexual assault),  so your statement doesn’t make any sense.

Comment #418: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/19  at  02:02 PM

I think it IS laziness to come up with rhetorical excuses not to make one’s blog more accessible

I think the dispute is about the meaning of “accessible.”  Amanda doesn’t think that trigger warnings increase accessibility; she’s said she finds them patronizing and homogenizing of different people’s psychological needs in handling trauma.  You think (correct me if I’m wrong) that trigger warnings show consideration to sufferers and do nothing to everyone else, so if they do no harm, why not err on the side of accessibility and use them?  You think they’re innocuous-to-good; she thinks they’re pointless-to-bad.  I don’t see how a consensus can be reached.  But that doesn’t mean that either idea is “lazy.”

Comment #419: FlipYrWhig  on  06/19  at  02:48 PM

Except, it IS not caring about people who need those trigger warnings as much as people who don’t.  My ‘ilk’ would be those that do need them.  You do better without them and I do MUCH worse without them—as someone else said, it’s a rhetorical need versus a concrete need.  But, ok, this space isn’t welcoming to me. I. get. it. It’s your place, do your thing, awesome.

It all comes down to the fact that I have a different view on ableism and privilege and reasonable accomodations for mental illness.  It’s like FlipYrWhig said (you paraphrased that well, btw)—we just aren’t going to reach consensus.  I can deal with that.  I just don’t like people misconstruing what I write.

Comment #420: EGhead  on  06/19  at  03:08 PM

“But, ok, this space isn’t welcoming to me.”

“This space” didn’t know you(in particular)  existed until you started commenting with a chip on your shoulder as big as Mt. Everest.

You continue the same mistake of making it all about you, and ironically damaging the cause you claim to be in favor of.

But I’m kind of used to it—society has already let me know I’m not worth its time and consideration: my abuse was ignored, and my mental illness was dismissed.

It all comes down to the fact that I have a different view on ableism and privilege and reasonable accomodations for mental illness.

You know, it’s possible to be mentally ill and be a world-class jerk at the same time.  Perhaps you should work on the jerkiness issue.

My ‘ilk’ would be those that do need them.

So the needs of others outweigh the right of Amanda to run this blog as she sees fit?

Total fail.

I know about triggers first-hand, after accidentally setting one off on my concentration-camp survivor mother.  I realized that the toll they can take on the unwary, but I think your problem is accepting that Amanda isn’t bowing to your desires, and your inappropriate rage at that is something you need to channel into something worth raging and/or(since this is an and/or blog) doing something constructive with said rage. 

This isn’t it.  Call me crazy, but that’s my POV.

Comment #421: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/19  at  04:11 PM

Eghead:
did you even bother to actually READ what i wrote?

*I* said:
“the only really *bad*-ish sort of thing i saw was someone saying that threats to hurt oneself can be taken as emotional blackmail. and, having been a cutter (almost 4 years no marks!) i have to agree - it *can* be emotional blackmail. it isn’t always, or even often. but *any* statement that follows the pattern of “If you do X i will do Y” is passive agressive by definition. “

you say:
“And, denelian, awesomegreatjob on not being scarred like some of us pathetic little shits, but just because you self-injure doesn’t mean you get to speak for all of us (or parenthetically mention how it hasn’t singled YOU out for ridicule IRL).  If you had bothered to read, I did not say ‘If you do x, I’ll do y.’ I explained what I meant by triggering.  I appreciate another warm body on the pile, though.”

what. the. FUCK?

to quote you: “If you had bothered to read”  you would have realized that i was RESPONDING TO SOMEONE ELSE, WHO WAS NOT YOU. would have realized that i only talked about triggers for two (short) paragraphs, and then moved you. what you are responding to here WAS NOT ABOUT TRIGGERS. i know what triggering means. i know what passive-agressive means. at no point did i, in any way, conflate the two.

i said “cutting CAN BE used as emotional blackmail” i said that, as a person who used to cut and a PERSON WHO USED TO FUCKING USE IT AS EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL.

at no point did i say, or even imply, that i was somehow special or not scarred or scared or *anything*. i SURE as fuck NEVER said or implied ANYONE was “pathetic” or ANYTHING like that. i just stated that yeah, it can and sometimes is used as emotional blackmail. it’s a behavior i spent a *VERY* long and hard 5 years getting rid of (the emotional blackmailing part; not the cutting part - i havent done it in 4 years, doesn’t mean something won’t happen that has me back there. and it’s been close a quite a few times recently).

it wasn’t *about* you. it had nothing to do with you. it was not in direct response to you. i didn’t even really pay attention to your name until this read-through, because i don’t know you and i wasn’t really trying to talk to you because of that. none of what i was wrote was about YOU in any way.
it was about *ME*
i am sorry if me talking about myself upset you. and while that sounds shitty, its as close as i can get right now, especially consider how insulting all that shit you said, specifically to me (unlike what i said, in response to SOMEONE ELSE about MYSELF). when i made that post, i wasn’t thinking about you or anyone else in this thread (except Dark Avenger and his joke). i wasn’t trying to “dogpile” anyone, i wasn’t taking any sides, i was asking for information and talking about myself.


no, really, what the hell? you said ” I just don’t like people misconstruing what I write.”
and that makes perfect total sense. but it’s apparantly okay for *YOU* to misconstrue what *OTHERS* write!?
and then attack them with and about a serious mental health issue?

i do not even *understand* how you got what you say you got out of what i wrote. i literally do not understand why you think i - no, *HOW* you think, what i wrote means that “i think i can speak for everyone/anyone who self-mutilates” and “i think all other self-mutilators are pathetic shits” and ESPECIALLY how you arrived at the conclusion that i “never had any Real Life issues and/or repercussions” because of my self-mutilation. and i really want to know how the hell you came up with these ideas. because they don’t just not mesh with what i meant, they don’t mesh with what i *SAID*.

Comment #422: denelian  on  06/20  at  04:18 AM

Flip;
so you are saying that what Rachel,II said might be taken as victim blaming, because some could read that “person should know when to stop reading”? i can see that (as an explanation for why people are saying “victim blaming)
thank you

it is a really wierd topic - just talking about it can be triggering (not a joke - for me, trigger warnings are themselves triggering. the reason for that is… complicated. and not necessary to the conversation hmmm )

it’s one of those areas that are nothing but minefields. you know, no one ever thought to say that it’s possible that Amanda has a reason for not liking trigger warnings that she hasn’t stated.
maybe (and i don’t know, just throwing out an idea that seems to have missed everyone) maybe Amanda finds the idea of “trigger warnings”, applied to herself, as something really bad, really insulting, really hurtful. maybe she hasn’t really thought about it, or maybe she has but didn’t want to share.
but no one has talked about the idea that Amanda may have her *own* mental-health reasons to not want to wander into “trigger warning” territory, and that if she *does* have them, she might not want to discuss them, even to the point of obfuscating the picture by implying (or stating, i haven’t read it all) that the whole issue is that she Just Doesn’t Want To Bother.
in the mean time, we are talking about treating everyone with respect in conjuction with mental health issues. it just seems a little disrespectful, especially considering the fact that it is known that Amanda was assulted, to ignore the potential that this discussion is as triggering for Amanda as it is for anyone else.

Comment #423: denelian  on  06/20  at  04:35 AM

and that was addressed to everyone on the thread - the only part addressed to Flip was the first parahraph. sorry that i did not make that clearer.

Comment #424: denelian  on  06/20  at  04:43 AM

I’m way late to this game, but I’ve got enough to say that I might as well comment.

Like Amanda, I am a survivor of rape but one who doesn’t have a lot of triggering affectations.  A trigger warning doesn’t do any more for me if it’s there or if it isn’t.  Like she said way back when, time and distance is a factor in this, as is therapy.  I get what Amanda is saying here—not all survivors require these kinds of considerations, and sometimes the assumption that I’m a delicate orchid fifteen years after the fact feels a bit condescending.  It underlies the bigotry in thinking assault survivors are somehow permanently ruined.  As feminists in feminist spaces, I know why it’s important to keep these kinds of considerations at the forefront.  Still, something chafes.

After having been involved in this blogging thing for the better part of a decade, it’s clear to me that blogs are not capable of being safe and therapeutic places, and while I feel for people who aim for this as one of many high standards, it seems to be such an inaccessible and innately disappointing feat.  You can’t control who comes and goes in an online space, how they behave, what their level of knowledge or experience is, or to what degree they adhere to online etiquette.  The internet is not a safe space.  A blog is not a safe space.  The public is not a safe space.  A goal, yes, teaspoons, sure, but if there is a need for a safe space online, probably the best way to achieve that is with password protection and a firewall.  It ain’t gonna happen on a blog.

Also:  One of the interesting things about the trigger warning debate is that, as far as I know, the trigger warning expectation online comes from message boards and LJ-type forums meant for sexual assault survivors, and presumably, a great deal more privacy and anonymity than is allowed by blogs as they currently exist.  Maybe the controversy lies partly in that the expectation doesn’t fit the medium?

One last thing, because the donation issue with SV is bugging me but at this point I don’t even know whether it’s worth bringing up again.  But fuck it:  I’ve been pretty open about my struggles with money and my desire to make my living as a writer, hell, even as a blogger.  It sounds nice to have that kind of life if I could afford it.  But despite the fact that Feministe makes some good money sometimes, none of us could ever make a living off of what we do there as bloggers.  Except for a VERY select few, blogging is a hobby or a promotional tool for some other gig.  I had to get a crappy sales job that sucks up all my time and mental energy, but I make decent wages now, I’ve got medical benefits, and I financially support my family.  I still write and find it gratifying, and I love the community of people that still read my blogs, and if I don’t write the blog world still goes on just fine, evolving and drama-ing without me.  I just can’t justify shaking down the readership on a regular basis, to the point where people who are financially much more worse off than I am feel pressured to donate, to live the privileged life of a writer.

Comment #425: Lauren  on  06/20  at  03:09 PM

Lauren;

isn’t that a bit self-fulfilling? i mean, the reason most writers (and similiar, bloggers, columnists, etc) are able to make writing their full-time job is because they SOMEHOW found a way to survive for a period of time without makeing any money -
so that, if you won $100,000 tomorrow, you could stop and transition to being a Working Writer who gets paid for her work, and because it is her Main Job and is actually of a level that it deserves to be paid for, you are no longer “taking advantage” of readers, they are merely paying for a good they really want?

so if you are professionally writing, you aren’t “shaking down” the readers - they *want* to buy your stuff. but you can only get there one of two ways-
the first way (outlined above by you) feels like you are using people
the second way involves literally winning the lottery.

i don’t have a problem with bloggers who write for money (except i have to wonder how many are ACTUALLY able to afford living, long term). i don’t have a problem with bloggers who ask for donations.
well, except when the blogger (or artist, or writer, or whatever) starts *demanding* donations. it’s one thing to sell your blog or webcomic or whatever - it’s another to have a free something set up, and then demand money to continue it without actually switching over to a pay-for-site, because a pay-for-site is a legitimate business thing while the demanding-donations-or-no-content has the same purpose as the business without being honest about it…

i have no clue if i am making any sense.

Comment #426: denelian  on  06/21  at  12:54 AM
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