Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Food Saturday: Vegetarian Tex-Mex Edition Previous entry: Music Fridays: Holiday Parties Edition

Do parents really need to know everything?

Family ValuesSex

One argument in defense of Sebelius's decision on Plan B is really starting to grate on my nerves, so at risk of running this topic into the ground, I'm going to have to vent on this. Michael Tomasky makes a good point---similar to mine from earlier---that Obama was playing less to the right on this issue than to parents, some liberal, who believe that their children (well, daughters) should be subject to strict parental controls and have no sexual privacy.  The difference in our positions is that Tomasky thinks this is a good thing, and I think it's awful. Tomasky:

 But it seems to me that there is a fair issue here, and it has to do with parents having a right to know about and be involved in what their kids are up to. You simply don’t have to be a right-winger to have concerns about your 14- or 15-year-old daughter having easy access to such a pill.

And he follows with:

In an ideal world, parents would rationally support the idea of their daughters having every means available to them to correct an error (or, obviously, to override a violation) that happened a day or two prior. But parents don’t always think rationally about these things. 

Yep. Parents don't always think rationally. That's why the whole notion that parents are entitled to know the extent of their child's sexual experimentation is inherently flawed. It's become a real truism of the debate over teenage sexuality that parental knowledge of the sexual activity is inherently a good thing, with an exception carved out for abusive parents. But I've never seen a shred of evidence that the input of parents who have an across-the-board hostility to sexual intercourse for minors is actually valuable. There's plenty of evidence that parents who are understanding and supportive of high school kids having sex can be good for kids, but I haven't seen any that suggests that there's a net positive if a teenage girl who is sexually active is outed to disapproving parents, unless she's being exploited, of course. But most sexually active teenagers are actually pretty boring. Most of them are in age-appropriate, consensual relationships, often with some kind of commitment. I fail to see any value in invading their sexual privacy. 

The "parental argument", as I'm calling it, is basically that Plan B should be made available to younger women only with a prescription because doing so means a girl who needs it will have to out herself as sexually active to her parents. This argument is bad on a number of fronts. First of all, it's a red herring. The law doesn't require you to talk to your parents, but to a doctor, who is legally required to protect your privacy in most states, unless you're being abused. True, many teenage girls may not know that, but I think parents are kidding themselves if they think those girls are the majority. The first girl to go to Planned Parenthood and get birth control without her parents will spread that knowledge through her peer group with rapid speed. Second of all, it's a blatantly sexist argument; I haven't seen a single soul, including Tomasky, making it even consider the question of condoms, which are legally available without age restrictions in all 50 states. Plus, they're infinitely less hassle and cheaper than Plan B, meaning that if you think there's some inherent good to minimizing the frequency of teenage sex, then condoms should be a greater concern. (Though let's be clear here; lack of access to contraception has been repeatedly shown to have little to no impact on the amount of sex young people have.) The only reason possible that condoms don't come up is pure sexism; Plan B provokes anxiety about female sexuality, and the stereotypical (though not actual) image of who has condoms on their person in high school is male. Fill in jokes about the condom-shaped wear on the leather wallet, etc. 

But most of all, the flaw is in assuming that there's intrinsic value to outing a girl who is having sex to her parents, with the exception of abuse. But if you think about this argument, it assumes a lot that is not proved by a long shot. So, let's walk through the standard, non-abuse discovery of sexual activity of a 15- or 16-year-old, which are the ages when the percentages of kids having sex grows rapidly. (Contrary to hysterical assumptions, younger teenagers just aren't doing it that much.) People who are making the parental argument are literally assuming that a tearful girl comes forward to her parents and confesses shamefacedly that she's been having sex with her boyfriend. Yelling, crying, and recriminations ensue. She gets her Plan B, but is perhaps grounded and her parents are very disappointed in her. They may or may not have a conversation about birth control going forward, but at every point in this process, her choice to have sex is considered less than ideal.

What does this solve? How does this standard American situation improve life for anyone involved?

It doesn't. The girl is highly unlikely to give up having sex, though now she may decide to be sneakier about it. She'll probably be defiant and feel her parents don't understand her; she will be right to think this. She may, correctly, see them as hypocrites, because they probably had sex as teenagers (that being what teenagers do), and it worked out well for them, but now they're going to punish her for the same. She's going to start counting the days when she can get out of the house with these unreasonable people and have a place of her own, where she can do what she wants. Meanwhile, the parents also have a worse go of it. If they really have absorbed prudish attitudes, they may think less of their daughter, even though she hasn't actually done anything wrong. Even if they are just typical American hypocrites who remember their own sexual debuts fondly while enacting hostility towards their daughter in the same situation, they're going to feel weird and out of sorts. They'll always feel that there may be something else they should be doing to stop the sexual activity. They may worry that they failed somehow. They may want to offer advice, but it's going to be filtered through the assumption that youthful sex is bad, and so it's probably not going to be good advice. 

Kids really do need their privacy, for the same reason that adults do. Even though I'm a grown ass adult and there's no shame or recriminations there, I don't talk about my sex life with my mom as a general rule. Because there's no value in it. Everyone's just happier minding their own damn business. I personally think there's a lot of value in letting teenagers spend their high school years gradually gaining rights and responsibilities---including sexual privacy rights and responsibilities---instead of simply dumping them into adulthood at 18 and expecting them not to get overwhelmed. This is another reason I support comprehensive sex education in schools.  I see no reason to believe that information "should" come from parents. Even the most well-meaning parents are going to be embarrassed and conflicted. It's better for everyone involved if kids have a place outside of the family to really talk about these things without being afraid of getting grounded or making their mom cry. 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:27 PM • (188) Comments

My biggest thing with Plan B is that the anecdotal evidence out there is that it tends to make the woman very ill for a few days. So I can see how, on a developing body, we might want to do that under the supervision of a doctor. Except… a) unless your parent is a doctor, your parent is not qualified to weigh those risks, which I would imagine are still a drop in the bucket next to what pregnancy will do to a developing body, and b) the recommendation was that Plan B did not present such a risk to teenagers that it couldn’t be delivered OTC so doctors pretty empirically answered that specific question about how “safe” it was for teenagers.

Comment #1: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  02:44 PM

What would your ideal law be regarding teen sex, age of consent, and so forth?

Comment #2: wnoise  on  12/09  at  02:56 PM

b) the recommendation was that Plan B did not present such a risk to teenagers that it couldn’t be delivered OTC so doctors pretty empirically answered that specific question about how “safe” it was for teenagers.

The obvious political calculations and perpetuation of harmful sexist attitudes are bad enough, but Sebelius and Obama are rubbing salt in the wound with the disingenuous lie that safety concerns hadn’t been satisfactorily answered.

Comment #3: DonnaDiva  on  12/09  at  03:05 PM

“I personally think there’s a lot of value in letting teenagers spend their high school years gradually gaining rights and responsibilities—-including sexual privacy rights and responsibilities—-instead of simply dumping them into adulthood at 18 and expecting them not to get overwhelmed.”

This.

My daughter finished high school last June. Throughout her HS years, I could not get over the number of her friends with “helicopter parents;” or the extent to which the school catered to them. One memorable example: last spring, I had to sign a permission slip so she could see a movie being shown in her senior English class. The movie was the Kenneth Branagh version of “Hamlet,” which was PG-13, lol. Since she was already 18 and a legal adult, I opined that this was ludicrous, and wrote as much on the slip. As a result, she conveniently “lost” the slip… and was forced to call me at home the day of the movie to get verbal permission.

This - unfortunately - is the audience Obama is speaking to on Plan B: middle/upper class parents who are so invested in managing every aspect of their kids’ lives that they expect - and receive - institutional support for it. As she notes here: http://tellyroftales.com/?p=1390 about her community college orientation - a lot of parents continue to try and “manage” their kids’ lives even in college.

Comment #4: elly  on  12/09  at  03:06 PM

LOL @ 2

Comment #5: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  03:09 PM

I think a blanket policy of allowing teenagers to have sex with each other legally is just fine. In fact, that’s the law as it stands.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  03:15 PM

Amanda—I think safe harbor “romeo & juliet” laws are on the books in over half the states. But whenever we start talking about teen sex you always get people who want to pretend like all statutory laws need to be overturned because of the epidemic of 18 year olds being thrown in jail for fucking their 17 year old girlfriends, when really the people arguing it are 40-yr-olds hiding behind the teenage couple as a reason why they should be allowed to fuck 13 year olds.

Comment #7: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  03:17 PM

As a former teen girl and now a mother, I’m totally with you, Amanda. Some girls are too embarrassed to tell their fathers they need tampons, they certainly aren’t going to get anything out of a conversation about Plan B.

What really bugs me about this whole mess to hell and gone is that these teens can visit Planned Parenthood or a private physician, receive a prescription for the Pill, and receive instructions about how to use their regular contraceptives as EC should the need arrive. It’s a pain in the butt, but it’s perfectly legal already. (Of course, because of the sliding scale it would be free or less expensive, too).

Seriously, I hope Obama’s daughters make his life a living hell because of this. Mind, I’m not wishing anything bad to happen to any of them, I just want Sasha and Malia to remind him every single day of what a craptacular father figure he is.

Comment #8: Kfierce  on  12/09  at  03:19 PM

Even though I’m a grown ass adult and there’s no shame or recriminations there, I don’t talk about my sex life with my mom as a general rule. Because there’s no value in it.

this has to be the strongest take-away from this whole post, and perhaps from the entire discussion on the entire misguided issue of parental control over their daughters’ sexual activity. the issues that actually do require adult input - rape, abuse, etc. - should be handled in the exactly the same way, genuine physiological differences aside, regardless of whether she is 15, 25, 35, etc.

Comment #9: cj  on  12/09  at  03:21 PM

My theory is that it’s purely political—the Dukakis effect. If you’re a geezer, like me, you remember during the Willie Horton hysteria (Karl Rove’s 1st big success) that Dukakis was asked during a debate what he’d do if it was his wife who had been raped. Although he sort of gleeped for a second, he gave a reasoned thoughtful answer about how governing was about more than just your personal feelings—and as a result, was pilloried. (Well, there was also the bad tank photo.)
So, going into an election cycle, someone realizes that if Obama supports the Plan B thing, he’s going to ge the same question about Malia, or Sasha. Which casts his daughters as the slutty slut slut African-American girls the right wing thinks they are, and that when he gives a reasoned adult answer, he’s going to be pilloried. And his daughters will be cast as potential public sluts.
So, to avoid this, he sold out all the young teenagers of America who are not his daughters.

Comment #10: cmf406  on  12/09  at  03:23 PM

cmf—the thing is, Obama pointed to his daughters during the election as a reason that he’s pro-choice. He made a general remark that he didn’t want his daughters punished with a baby if they made a mistake.

Comment #11: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  03:26 PM

Tomasky basically believes that the proper response to teen sex (in females) is punishment of some kind or another, and the trouble with Plan B is that it short circuits punishment and substitutes a comparatively straightforward medical solution to a medical need.  Perhaps it wouldn’t bother him so much if taking Plan B were much, much nastier. They should have made it shit flavored, maybe, or build in a side effect of making your toenails fall off, or give you week-long diarrhea. 

Comment #12: notsylvie  on  12/09  at  03:29 PM

Mighty Ponygirl—I know! That’s what makes it so disappointing. But the optics were different in the last election—they were both clearly little girls. Now, that they’re old enough to get pregnant it looks different.
I’m not defending him—I think it was a crappy decision (and I say this as a woman who found myself in need of both Plan B, and an abortion late in life). But I can almost hear the political discussion about how it was going to look and about how Rove’s people were just waiting to pounce on this one. I also think that elly’s comment about the helicopter parents, who are a big part of his constituency, has a lot to do with it (along with general squeamishness about teen sex). What I don’t think this has anything to do with is actual safety or concern for the lives of teenaged girls whose last names are not Obama.

Comment #13: cmf406  on  12/09  at  03:34 PM

Uh, kids have access to condoms OTC. They also have access to their genitals ALL THE TIME—without parental consent. Teens are going to have sex without their parents knowing, and sorry parents, you can’t expect the government to implement your control fantasies for you. I never told my parents what I got up to as a teenager and now that I am a 30 year old, I STILL WOULD NEVER EVER WANT TO TALK TO THEM about that period of time. Sex talks with parents are yuck, whether you’re having awesome sex or none at all. My parents are lovely, wonderful people, but NO. I admire people who have more open honest communication with their parents about sex but doubt highly that it’s the norm.

So I fail to see how forcing kids to suffer the highly avoidable consequences of having sex is somehow “letting the parents know what their kids are up to.” IT’s not. The parents still won’t know—or they’ll know only once their kid gets preggo and has to go through an extremely unpleasant medical procedure. Ugh. That’s like saying “I really think parents should know when their kids are driving, because driving! it’s unsafe! Parents should know!”—and then removing seat belts from the car. stupid stupid stupid.

Comment #14: t-ster  on  12/09  at  03:39 PM

I remember being 14 and having it made very clear from my very liberal, middle-class, sex-ed and abortion-on-demand-even-for-teenagers supporting parents that sexuality Was Wrong For Me Now. I remember specifically an overheard “sex would be cool!” kind of comment from me (was nowhere near actually having sex at that point, it was largely a silly comment) and got grounded for a week and contact with my friends limited and after lots of yelling and so forth, because “you’re just too young for that!” Well that’ll show me, right? So consequently, I avoided any further discussion about birth control or safe sex or anything and was very sneaky for many years (luckily not getting pregnant). And once or twice, OTC Plan-B would have been a godsend.

I mean, sure, I get squicked at the idea of 11, 12 or 13 year olds consensually sexing each other up with possible pregnancies on the way - but would STILL feel more comfortable if they could get emergency contraception whenever they could scrape together $50 instead of getting all “no no, maybe if we make them talk to their parents first it will make it all better!”

So, essentially, President Obama and anxious liberal parents: just stop it.

Comment #15: Tenya  on  12/09  at  03:54 PM

There’s plenty of evidence that parents who are understanding and supportive of high school kids having sex can be good for kids

Unless those kids are Jamie Lynn Spears or Bristol Palin.

Comment #16: keshmeshi  on  12/09  at  03:57 PM

Yeah, “romeo&juliet;” clauses need to be part of every single statutory rape law, and it’s a shame that it’s not in most places. I’d be generous, and say that even a 5 year window is fine by me. A 22-year-old with a 17-year-old is an idiot, but unlikely to be a predator. But we need

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  03:58 PM

er, statutory rape laws. To grab the bona fide predators.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  03:59 PM

1. How I wish we were more like the Dutch!
2. I’m so tired of the onus for birth control being put on girls and women exclusivly. JHC.
3.Once again, the Dems have thrown women under the bus. And roll back and forth over us for good measure, ending with hitting the brakes and gas pedels at the same time* just in case we forgot ( as if we ever ever could) that we are Not Quite Human and omg the Other Party is so Much Worse!!!! 111Eleveny ONe!!! ( *Doing a BrakeStand. Fun to do actually!)

Comment #19: pitbullgirl65  on  12/09  at  04:07 PM

1. What’s worse than an 11 or 12 year old kid that is sexually active? A pregnant 11 or 12 year old girl.

2. I am almost 30, my boyfriend and i have been living together for 5 years, we are domestic partners.  We are still expected to sleep in separate bedrooms when we visit my parents.

Comment #20: shinobi42  on  12/09  at  04:14 PM

One thing that always bugs me about these discussions is the assumption that only kids with bad relationships with their parents wouldn’t talk to them about sex. I had a great relationship with my parents, as far as teenagers go, and they made sure I had lots of good info and very little embarrassment about sex, and I would have been damned before I talked to them about it. Frankly, I consider my ability to navigate the confusing and difficult suburban bus system to get myself to PP for birth control a sign of my maturity and readiness to have sex.

Comment #21: chingona  on  12/09  at  04:16 PM

kesh—huh? neither one of those young women had parents supportive of the idea that their daughters were sexual beings.

Comment #22: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  04:20 PM

I wonder what, if any, the penalties would be for buying this for a young girl if you weren’t their parents? It’s an odd analogy, but I remember being fourteen and standing outside stores with my friends asking people to buy us cigarettes. We were always able to get them. Isn’t this the likeliest scenario to come out of such an arbitrary number as 17? Also, maybe it’s an idea—just putting it out there—for some bold feminist group to start an underground railroad of the stuff.

Comment #23: Seth Eag  on  12/09  at  04:25 PM

If my mother had known that I was having sex with my boyfriend in high school it would have caused a lot of problems between us. She wasn’t abusive but it would have been yet another bomb in the mother/daughter relationship minefield. I know she would’ve thrown it in my face every time she disapproved of something else. And yes I’m sure she might have suspected. But navigating teenage relationships and sex was difficult enough without adding her disapproval. There was no reason she needed to know.

Meanwhile she was a baby boomer who prided herself on telling her kids, “You can tell me anything.” It was a nice thought though.

Comment #24: shakahi  on  12/09  at  04:28 PM

I always wonder who the hell straight (or rather all) boys are supposed to sleep with if girls aren’t supposed to have sex. Prostitutes? Anyone who isn’t your daughter, because who cares about them?

Comment #25: junk science  on  12/09  at  04:30 PM

I wonder what, if any, the penalties would be for buying this for a young girl if you weren’t their parents?

Presumably whatever the penalties are for handing out prescription medication to minors.

Comment #26: rb1  on  12/09  at  04:34 PM

junk science—the fact that young men seem to be very keen on who the “easy” girl is answers that question. There is the designated class slut, that all the boys get to sleep with, and she makes sure the rest of the girls stay virgins.

Comment #27: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  04:36 PM

Yeah, having Sebelius and Obama lie about the “safety” of Plan B was kind of a tell that they know better.

Comment #28: Punditus Maximus  on  12/09  at  04:47 PM

Right, Mighty Ponygirl, but the class slut presumably has parents too. Or maybe she’s from a broken home or doesn’t matter for some other reason.

Comment #29: junk science  on  12/09  at  04:53 PM

Sure, parents - if they’re caring, supportive parents - deserve to know.

Does this decision do that?  No.

Does requiring teens to jump through legal hoops to prove their parents aren’t caring help?  No.

So no, I don’t think that adults should be required to blockade teens (because they’ll be required to block those who have no other option) nor should they be required to tattle on teens (because then they’ll be required to inform on teens to abusive parents).

It’s really simple:  It’s up to the parents to have a good enough dialog with their children.  It shouldn’t be up to me.  None of these laws are inform-later but instead ‘make sure inform happens first!’ which basically means standing in the way of a teen that needs medical treatment immediately and them returning them to their abusive parent before treatment or any method in the best interests of the child.

It’s just not in the interests of the child to withhold medical treatment.  Ever.

Comment #30: Crissa  on  12/09  at  05:00 PM

junk—of course she is. Think about the class slut stereotype.

Comment #31: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  05:02 PM

Although the general issues of teens’ sexual privacy, experimentation, and parental emotions are interesting in their own right, the basic mistake apologists like Tomasky make is that parents have “a right to know” whether their daughter takes Plan B. Surely prochoice liberals like him would never defend parental consent laws for abortion? Or, as Amanda argues, insist kids only buy condoms with parental consent?

The FDA approved Plan B for younger teens. There is no drug/substance controversy here. No case for “parental concern” over drugs. I’m afraid the apologias for Sebelius simply stem from a little of the gender gap, as well as a desire to shore up her boss Obama after he riled up his base again.

Comment #32: Panda don (from woods of Oxford)  on  12/09  at  05:12 PM

I was just writing about this and caught myself referring to “the ability to correct a mistake.”  I rewrote it.  While I suppose you might say that having unprotected sex, rather than just having sex, was the mistake in question, I think that too many people are assuming that all teenage sex is some sort of error.  It isn’t!

Another thing that irks me—even the FDA rule makes the purchase of this pill available to “women of reproductive age.”  Shouldn’t it say “people of reproductive age?”  Contraception is the guy’s responsibility too.  The guy might go pick this up at the woman’s request.  He might even pay for it!

Comment #33: destor23  on  12/09  at  05:14 PM

Like it or not, upper-middle and lower-upper class suburbanites have always dominated American politics in general. Those are the fabled “swing voters” that we hear so much about every election season. They run the show.

This was focus grouped (not that I’m saying that’s a bad thing, information is useful in politics) it polled really badly among this group, and considering the fetish for them, it’s a no-brainer.

It’s also why real effect stimulus was always DOA and why so much is done to protect the home valuation bubble, and why the interests of Wall Street will always come before the interests of the lower working classes.

Comment #34: Karmakin  on  12/09  at  05:16 PM

“2. I am almost 30, my boyfriend and i have been living together for 5 years, we are domestic partners.  We are still expected to sleep in separate bedrooms when we visit my parents.”

Sounds awkward, shinobi42, but oh well, you can fantasize that you’re the stars of your own 1950s sitcom!

Comment #35: Panda don (from woods of Oxford)  on  12/09  at  05:21 PM

@21 Exactly. People act like sex is rocket science, and well, it isn’t. You don’t have to be completely mature in every way to be okay with sex. If you did, a lot of adults couldn’t do it.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  05:24 PM

I quipped elsewhere the other day, “A conservative is a liberal who had kids.”  Of course I don’t mean that earnestly—we all know there are lots of liberal parents, who have a healthy relationship to their children and respect their right to make their own choices (within limits).  But it does impress me how many of my otherwise-socially-liberal friends turn authoritarian when it comes to their kids.  And I’m not talking about personal parenting style; I mean the ease with which we accept draconian policies regarding our children.

Comment #37: Cris (without an H)  on  12/09  at  05:37 PM

@panda don You mean we AREN’T the stars of our own 1950s sitcom?  Then why do I keep tripping over that ottoman?

Comment #38: shinobi42  on  12/09  at  05:48 PM

Karm, no one is denying that this was naked pandering to those people. The point is those people are WRONG, they should be TOLD they are wrong, and they should not be indulged their nasty control fantasies.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  05:53 PM

“I personally think there’s a lot of value in letting teenagers spend their high school years gradually gaining rights and responsibilities—-including sexual privacy rights and responsibilities—-instead of simply dumping them into adulthood at 18 and expecting them not to get overwhelmed.”

^^^^^Ding, ding, ding.^^^^^

I’ve made exactly that point during several discussions about teenage sexual activity over the years. Isn’t that what is supposed to happen during their teen years? Don’t we want them to learn how to exercise and handle responsibility??????

During those discussions I have repeatedly asked why it is preferable for teenagers - especially the 11 and 12 year olds they’re always bleating about - to be bearing children rather than using contraception.

Crickets every time.

Comment #40: carswell  on  12/09  at  05:55 PM

@10, Willie Horton was Lee Atwater’s doing, not Rove.

Comment #41: benvolio  on  12/09  at  06:04 PM

Sure, parents - if they’re caring, supportive parents - deserve to know.

Why? This means that children with caring supportive parents don’t deserve privacy.

Comment #42: shakahi  on  12/09  at  06:26 PM

kesh—huh? neither one of those young women had parents supportive of the idea that their daughters were sexual beings.

In both cases, the boyfriends were living in the girls’ homes, sleeping in their bedrooms overnight.

Comment #43: keshmeshi  on  12/09  at  06:30 PM

If Mitt Romney gets the nomination next year I won’t vote for him: but is there any reason I should care if Romney beats Obama?  Maybe Romney would appoint worse judges than Obama, but we don’t know.  Anything else?

Comment #44: Unree  on  12/09  at  06:33 PM

I’m the mother of a 2 year old, and if something happens where she needs Plan B or birth control or an abortion and doesn’t come to me for support, I’ll believe that it’s because I fucked up royally somewhere along the way. I would love to have the type of relationship with my daughter where she could tell me these things, but I certainly wouldn’t want her legally compelled to do so. That fact right there would destroy the type of relationship I want. I can’t be the only mother of a daughter who feels that way.

Comment #45: fedelm  on  12/09  at  06:52 PM

@41—thanks. And we know what happened to Lee Atwater. (I sort of thought I had it wrong… but frankly, I’d forgotten about that little weasel).

Comment #46: cmf406  on  12/09  at  06:54 PM

Anecdote doesn’t trump data, kesh. The Dutch, by and large, allow sleepovers and Americans don’t. They have way lower negative sexual health outcomes than we do. These aren’t unrelated.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  07:38 PM

Comprehensive, mandatory sex ed in all schools is the only sensible sex ed policy there is, IMO. There should be no parental opt-out. School systems don’t give parents permission to sign their kids out of learning history, math, literature or science—-well, okay, there are struggles over Biology, but that’s part of the problem!—-so why should they feel free to keep the kids at home when it’s time to learn about sex?

I’m sure they’d like to have me believe they don’t really want to keep their kids ignorant, they just think they’ll do a better job of teaching their kids about sex than the teachers, but really? If you don’t want the kid to be ignorant, there’s no downside to letting him attend the sex ed lessons along with his classmates. The school system isn’t keeping you from talking to your kids about sex on your own terms in the evenings and weekends.

Given the number of parents who think their adolescent kids’ options for sex should be “DON’T DO IT,” there should be no parental opt-out.

Comment #48: Alyson Miers  on  12/09  at  07:38 PM

Fedelm, I can understand why you feel that way, but I really hate that parents often feel like failures or that they don’t have good relationships with their kids just because their teenagers don’t disclose their sexual activity.  I think it’s something that a lot of parents need to work through. Like many commenters here, I had a pretty good relationship with my parents, at least as good as it can really be when you’re a teenager and I have an even better relationship now that I’m a grownup and I still to this day would choose death by stoning over talking to them about my sex life.  It’s just weird and kind of not their business, just like I would rather die than hear anything about THEIR sex lives (ew ew ew ew I’m cringing at my desk just typing this).

Comment #49: chareth cutestory  on  12/09  at  07:44 PM

I’m pro-choice and pro-safe sex, but I’m having a hard time getting worked up about this issue. Preventing pregnancy is black and white, but everything else is gray.  I think implicit in Amanda’s post and a lot of the comments here is that teenagers have some kind of universal right to have sex and privacy.  That would be nice, but it’s not reality.  We don’t let teenagers do a lot of things in this society, even though they are physically capable of it.  In Minnesota, a parent’s permission is needed for a flu shot and we are one of 25 states that has conditions on birth control scrips for minors (the doctor has discretion on whether to notify the parents).

If we really believe they have a right to sex and privacy the issue is a lot bigger.  We should have a law preventing parents from intruding in annoying ways on their teens, and ensuring the right to a locked bedroom door when studying with “friends.”  Maybe motels should be forced to rent rooms to minors.  Should we be selling them booze and pornography, too?  And definitely hold them responsible for their own negligent acts rather than their parents.

It should be a simple question of:  how much misery will it spare adolescent girls versus how much harmful mischief will it cause.  I haven’t seen that analysis from anyone.  Sebelius decided we weren’t ready for it yet—I’m sure that decision will change eventually.

Comment #50: daveinmpls  on  12/09  at  07:46 PM

Dave @ 50. “Mischief”? Really? You’re wondering if giving young women access to appropriate medical care is worth all the mischief it would cause? Even if looking at it that way was even a little worthwhile and not creepy, it seems like the cost/benefit there would be prett straightforward.

Comment #51: Matty  on  12/09  at  07:55 PM

I had sex for the first time when I was 13, with a boy my age. I don’t regret it in the slightest, even though I wasn’t very mature at that age. I don’t believe I suffered any harm for it, and I know I’m not the only one who did this!

All those people who would want their daughters to be able to take plan B if they needed it, but are so concerned about KNOWING if their daughter takes it are really just increasing the chance that their daughters will end up pregnant and either give birth or need an abortion. By introducing any barrier to obtaining the drug, you are guaranteeing that some additional number of teenagers will ovulate and possibly become pregnant before they have a chance to take it.

My dad was a religious zealot. If I had needed plan B and he found out, I would have been grounded literally the entire time I was in high school. Under lock and key if that was possible, to keep me from having an abortion. My dad would have been so furious. But secretly he would have been pleased if I was punished for being a slut by having a child. Giving birth as a teenager would have made it less likely that I would have gotten through school and ended up with a professional career, and more likely that I’d have a more traditional woman’s role. People who oppose birth control are out-of-the-mainstream religious zealots opposed to women’s full equality, and I fail to see any reason our government needs to cater to them.

Comment #52: Safron  on  12/09  at  08:05 PM

Sorry for the second (double?) post, but I have so much to say about this issue. I am really horrified about how many people frequenting other supposedly liberal blogs don’t get it or don’t think this is a big deal. Plan B is birth control, plain and simple. I would hope liberal people realize that it is bad to put obstacles up for teenage girls accessing birth control.

Teens probably need plan B the most because they are less mature about sex and less easily able to negotiate boundaries such as insisting their partners use condoms, and the consequences of having a child at that age are more severe. I’ve seen comments on liberal blogs that requiring a prescription is no big deal because you can easily get plan B over the internet. Seriously! Even if you got up from sex and immediately ordered up some plan B, it’s probably going to be too late by the time the package gets there.

Comment #53: Safron  on  12/09  at  08:21 PM

daveinmpls @ 50 - Do you have a citation for this statement: “We are one of 25 states that has conditions on birth control scrips for minors (the doctor has discretion on whether to notify the parents)”?

I work in the healthcare field in MN and this in not my current understanding of the law.

Comment #54: GumbyAnne  on  12/09  at  08:29 PM

Sure, parents - if they’re caring, supportive parents - deserve to know.
Why? This means that children with caring supportive parents don’t deserve privacy.
Comment #42: shakahi on 12/09 at 06:26 PM

Nowhere in my comment did I say that.  Troll someone else, lie somewhere else, please.

If someone has supportive parents, they probably also don’t care if those parents knowBut this is completely irrelevant, as those who don’t have supportive parents need to be able to make their decisions.  And all teens deserve privacy to determine if their parents are supportive or not.

Comment #55: Crissa  on  12/09  at  09:00 PM

Maybe Romney would appoint worse judges than Obama, but we don’t know.  Anything else?
Comment #44: Unree on 12/09 at 06:33 PM

He most certainly would appoint worse judges.  How is this even up for debate?

Comment #56: Crissa  on  12/09  at  09:04 PM

Skylanda’s first corollary of birth control in teenagers:

The younger the teenager asking for it, the more urgent the need to provide it without question or barrier.

And then provide the time to explore why later on.  After it has been provided.

Comment #57: skylanda  on  12/09  at  09:08 PM

Matty @ 51 Maybe mischief was a bad word, I wasn’t trying to be flippant.  It isn’t hard to imagine scenarios where the availability of Plan B causes more unprotected sex and more STDs for instance.  Also, I heard someone (another blog?) mention a scenario in which abuse could remain undetected.  How exactly you balance the harm with the good is for greater minds than mine, but you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.

GumbyAnne @ 54 http://www.contracept.org/minorsaccess.php  originally but http://www.sexedforlife.org/minors.htm has a description closer to your understanding probably.  The point is there is no right across the USA to a contraceptive prescription for minors without parental consent.  Some states require high school graduation, marriage or even emancipation in lieu of parental consent.

Comment #58: daveinmpls  on  12/09  at  09:10 PM

chareth, I don’t want to know about my child’s sex life, especially in detail. What I meant was if she was in some sort of sexual trouble that I hope she would talk to me about it. Admittedly, I’m primarily thinking about abortion where most of the parental consent discussion takes place. But seriously, if she’s scared, I want her to be able to talk to me, and if she can’t because she’s afraid I’ll flip out on her, I’d consider that a failure.

I can’t imagine what contraceptive access will be like in 10-15 years, but considering how hard it is to get today I’d hope she’d be able to let me help her procure some. If it’s OTC and no big deal, that’s fine, I don’t need to know. I just don’t want her shamed or jumping through hoops to get some medicine she needs because she can’t tell me she’s considering or is having sex.

Comment #59: fedelm  on  12/09  at  09:14 PM

I think that Amanda’s point about even adults not discussing sex with their parents is an important one.  I’m an adult child of feminist parents and I STILL keep my sex life to myself. There is a pretty strong cultural taboo against discussing sex in detail with certain relations.  My parents also don’t tell me about their sex life and I think that is driven by the same sense of inappropriateness and embarassment.  I’m certainly glad I don’t have to ask my parents in order to get contraceptives, not because they wouldn’t let me, but because OMG AWKWARD!

Comment #60: GumbyAnne  on  12/09  at  09:37 PM

A question (that was asked but not answered earlier) for anyone with legal knowledge: Are there penalties for an over-17 year old buying Plan B OTC and giving it to an under-17-year old? It’s not a controlled substance, and it’s not even really an Rx medication.

Comment #61: JeffTheGreen  on  12/09  at  09:53 PM

@11 Mighty Ponygirl:  Obama did say he didn’t want his daughters “punished” by pregnancy.  What you’re forgetting is the firestorm of criticism for calling a pregnancy punishment, when life is precious, etc. etc.  I don’t blame him for not wanting to go there again.

Comment #62: gretchen  on  12/09  at  10:46 PM

I don’t really see how harm could be more easily detected if adults (the ones doing the most harm) can get the medicine without a prescription.

Comment #63: Crissa  on  12/09  at  11:14 PM

You are all crazy.  Children are the private property of their parents until they turn 18.  Passing laws that tell property-owners what they can and can’t do with their property is un-American.

Comment #64: Jake  on  12/09  at  11:16 PM

gretchen, no I’m not. In fact, I was the one who helped Amanda burn Hannity when he was acting all outraged that anyone would refer to a child as a punishment by locating his use of that very phrase in his own book.

Comment #65: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/09  at  11:39 PM

Dave @ 58 - there’s a time and a place. When a 14 year old needs birth control, that’s the crisis, not “well, is there abuse? Did she get HPV? Is it someone we approve of?” Playing this game with plan B is especially icky, given that it’s a time-limited, crisis medication that needs to be taken within a fairly small window to work.

I mean, shit, let’s take the abuse hypothetical. I was talking about this with my girlfriend just now, and she pointed out that, when a young adolescent comes to the point of needing emergency contraception, that is a crisis. There were other points where you could have stepped in and potentially headed that off, but that is in the past. What matters now is keeping a middleschooler from, you know, having to bear her abusers child. If your concern is “well, mischief,” then you’ve failed to grasp why this is important.

Comment #66: Matty  on  12/10  at  12:08 AM

I’m 26 and my sex life is nobody else’s business.  And so it should be with people of all ages.  18 isn’t some magical age below which you have no right to privacy or personal business.

Comment #67: bananacat  on  12/10  at  12:17 AM

I always wonder who the hell straight (or rather all) boys are supposed to sleep with if girls aren’t supposed to have sex. Prostitutes? Anyone who isn’t your daughter, because who cares about them?

Oh, they’re still supposed to have sex with girls; the girls just aren’t supposed to like it.  This double standard sets up rape culture from a very early age, because every interaction that could lead to sex ends up with a winner and a loser.  And it also removes autonomy from girls and buts the burden of “protection” on their fathers, so girls that choose to have sex are seen as a sign that their fathers were failures at keeping the predators away from them.

I absolutely fucking hate the DADD (dads against daughters dating) t-shirts.  I’ve even seen fathers joke on the internet that they will make sure their daughter will have sex exactly three times in her life, and it will be with her husband for the purpose of providing him grandchildren.  Some fathers are freaked out by the idea of their daughters having any kind of sexuality because in this rape culture they only see how it will reflect on them as protectors of their property.

Yeah, this is a slight derail but this one issue that just really makes me want to rant.

Comment #68: bananacat  on  12/10  at  12:29 AM

I’m amazed at the shock and disapproval I get from purportedly liberal parents when I make it clear that 1) I don’t own my teen son’s sexuality 2) I give him condoms with a dont ask dont tell replacement policy and 3) it really IS too much to expect a kid to have a talk with you about their plans to fuck!

Maybe growing up in a trailer court that had many teen parents and generated many more, and having a grandmother who was a teen mom and worked at a school for troubled kids disabused me of any of the usual conceits, lapses of logic, and sense of profound control over my kid’s life.

Comment #69: Ms Kate  on  12/10  at  12:38 AM

I think it noteworthy that many of my son’s striving immigrant parents also supply condoms to their kids when said kids are headed out on school trips.

Comment #70: Ms Kate  on  12/10  at  12:40 AM

I’m the mother of a 2 year old, and if something happens where she needs Plan B or birth control or an abortion and doesn’t come to me for support, I’ll believe that it’s because I fucked up royally somewhere along the way. I would love to have the type of relationship with my daughter where she could tell me these things, but I certainly wouldn’t want her legally compelled to do so. That fact right there would destroy the type of relationship I want. I can’t be the only mother of a daughter who feels that way.

If your daughter doesn’t feel comfortable talking to her mom about her very personal sex life, it’s not a failure on your part.  I’m very close to my mom and she was very supportive when she found out I was having sex.  I still didn’t want to talk to her about it.  Teens are embarrassed by their parents, and that’s the way it should be.  The best thing you can do is make sure there are other women in your daughter’s life that she can reach out to.  It’s great if she come to you, but I highly doubt she will want to discuss the specifics with her mother.  Give her the information, let her know you’re there, maybe leave some condoms in a conspicuous place, and then back off and don’t be crushed if she doesn’t confide in you.

Comment #71: bananacat  on  12/10  at  12:40 AM

Another sad sac liberal argument about the lack of need for parental guidance from a person who has no children.  But, but, but this study indicated…blah blah blah.  Just because your parents brought you up without a compass and you’ve read a few studies you ve now appointed yourself the new Dr Spock.  Try raising a couple of kids, until then stick to something you know about….like how to kill your baby without any remorse.

Comment #72: Knuterockne  on  12/10  at  02:35 AM

You can’t even write English correctly, Knute, how are you going to raise a child to be an adult with your shortbus grammar?

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  02:56 AM

I think it noteworthy that many of my son’s striving immigrant parents also supply condoms to their kids when said kids are headed out on school trips.

Those parents are far more open-minded and enlightened than most parents I’ve known…...especially back when I was in high school in the early-mid-‘90s. 

Multi-generational American parents of high school classmates tend to be the sexual hypocrites and/or social/religious conservatives cited by OP and several commenters…..especially considering several of them were boomers old enough to take part in the “free love” ‘60s. 

While most immigrant parents of high school classmates were socially/religiously conservative, their overriding concern was more due to concerns of “distractions” such as adolescent sex which could derail hopes their kids would go off to a good/elite college/university, graduate, and pursue highly remunerative/prestigious employment to raise the family fortunes/perceived social status…..or at least to stave off being stuck at the perceived bottom of the US socio-economic ladder.

Comment #74: exholt  on  12/10  at  04:18 AM

A teenaged girl is obviously the LAST person who might suffer a contraceptive failure, just as she’s the last person who has a legitimate reason to fear the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy, or to fear domestic violence….

Comment #75: Dr. Psycho  on  12/10  at  04:30 AM

The ruling is intended to score political points by making sure women and girls are punished for being female.  That’s an extremely popular viewpoint even with liberals.  It has close to nothing to do with parental “rights.”  It’s mainly a way to restrict access to birth control for women.  Even an adult woman who doesn’t need a prescription now has to find a pharmacy and come in during the restricted hours these are open, rather than stopping at a gas station vending machine at 4 in the morning as you could for a Tylenol or a condom.  Combine that with “conscience” clauses and one-pharmacy towns, and you have situations where it will be difficult or impossible to get emergency birth control on time.  The whole point of the restrictions is to make sure women can’t escape unplanned pregnancy.

All of the debate before was liberals pointing out how good it would be for women to be able to get contraception on time.  The right couldn’t gain traction in that argument because access to contraception would reduce abortion, so their normal arguments of “think of the innocent babies” wouldn’t fly.  Finally they latched onto the patently ridiculous “think of the innocent children” excuse and repeated it so often it’s apparently become a serious argument.  There are maybe three people in the U.S. who actually think 11-year-olds rutting is the concern here.  The feeling of rightness that a liberal parent might get from thinking of someone else’s (never their own!) weeping 16-year old daughter begging for the right to control her own body is misogyny.  It’s just more socially acceptable to liberals when it’s presented as a regulation taking away girls’ bodily autonomy than to say they mean to take away autonomy from women of all ages.

Comment #76: Nimravid  on  12/10  at  05:03 AM

As an Australian, I do think there’s a lot more anti-sex feeling among Americans. I don’t find the thought of my parents having sex to be disturbing at all—I’m rather pleased that they had an obviously mutually satisfying sex life during my own teen years and until quite recently. I think its the foundation of my own comfort with sex, and that of my sisters. 
When my boys were over 16, living at home, their girlfriends were welcome to stay over (if they were over 16), and I made sure that there were always condoms in the bathroom cabinet. That’s not hard. It was more tricky talking to my daughter about contraception, but I managed it. They are now all adults, and seem happy with their relationship choices. I’m glad that they weren’t forced experiment in parks or cars, and that they could be warm and safe and happy int heir own home. Isn’t that what parenting is all about?

Comment #77: Emma in Sydney  on  12/10  at  05:22 AM

Australia banned small boobs in porn. They have no leg to stand on when it comes to sexual prudishness.

Comment #78: scrumby  on  12/10  at  07:01 AM

Um, I’m one of 20 million. And one of the few non-Americans who read here. Wevs.

Comment #79: Emma in Sydney  on  12/10  at  07:27 AM

I’ve even seen fathers joke on the internet that they will make sure their daughter will have sex exactly three times in her life, and it will be with her husband for the purpose of providing him grandchildren.

Wow. I don’t think I’ll go a day the rest of my life without seeing at least one piece of sexist bullshit so foul it makes me want to throw up.

And not that people like this actually think their “jokes” through, but what are their daughters’ husbands supposed to do? Cheat on them? They’re happy with their daughters being cheated on? I know you’re not suggesting one d00d expects another to spend his life without sex.

Comment #80: junk science  on  12/10  at  07:59 AM

Matty @66 I already apologized for using the word “mischief” (@58).  Your fixation on that is little bizarre.

You are looking at individual impacts only.  You have to look at groups, because this is not just about health impacts to the individual.  We know that Plan B will prevent x pregnancies (y that would have gone to term and z that would have been aborted and another number that would have resulted in health complications to the mother).  If there is an 11% chance of fertilization and a 3-5% chance of pregnancy from 1 sexual encounter (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_odds_of_getting_pregnant_if_you_had_sex_only_one_time) only 1 Plan B taker out of 20 is actually preventing a pregnancy. That’s all good savings in human suffering.  I do not disagree with you.

The availability to 10 and 11 year olds and up will likely change all kinds of middle and high school group behaviors over time.  This is why an epidemiologist should have a report somewhere that we have not seen.  The good needs to be weighed against the harm caused by increased levels of teen sex overall, the increased levels of unprotected sex (resulting in increases in pregnancies, abortions and STDs), and yes the number of kids who will cover for an abuser (and abusers who force them to) by using Plan B, allowing them to remain uncaught and abuse other children.  Underage women will have less of a reason to say no or insist on a condom when everyone knows they can just go the drugstore the next day and someone coercing them hands them the $50.

Comment #81: daveinmpls  on  12/10  at  10:11 AM

I think it noteworthy that many of my son’s striving immigrant parents also supply condoms to their kids when said kids are headed out on school trips.

My experience with my own striving immigrant parents and the striving immigrant parents of most of my friends is more in line with exholt’s. Teenaged boyfriends/girlfriends/sex are considered to be the decadent habits of lazy and complacent Americans who don’t care enough about their schoolwork.

Comment #82: Tyro  on  12/10  at  10:51 AM

When are we, as a society, going to start publicly admitting that:

1.  We were not virgins when we got married - if we ever got married.
2.  We were sexually active as teenagers.
3.  It was a beautiful thing?

Now, I know that’s not everybody’s experience, but it sure as hell is not uncommon.  However, we virtually never talk about it in the public square.  Instead it’s all faux shock and outrage.

Comment #83: DaveL  on  12/10  at  10:55 AM

@Tyro: it turns out some immigrants are different from other immigrants.

Comment #84: Punditus Maximus  on  12/10  at  10:57 AM

dave, you’re under the impression that teenagers believe your permission is required to become sexually active. It’s not.

You know what your teenage daughter can do, legally, without your input or permission?

Have a baby.

Since we allow that, it’s just common sense to allow them NOT to have a baby.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  11:06 AM

Also, unlike booze, sex is not “mischief”. I mean, I know adults have to pretend it is to make it more exciting for ourselves, but why put our problems on kids? Tell me directly: if a girl has sex and doesn’t get pregnant or an STI, what’s the harm? What damage is caused by not having a hymen? What, specifically, does sex *do* to a person that’s so wrong and bad and dangerous that we have to use pregnancy as punishment? It has to be WORSE than unintended pregnancy, because that’s why you’re using pregnancy as punishment, to deter the even worse outcomes.

I have asked this question of many people, and have never had a satisfying answer. Since we only really think sex is wrong for girls, it’s clear that the answer is that women’s value is tied to their virginity. Which is sick.

Comment #86: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  11:12 AM

You’re working under the assumption that teenagers or tweens would have less sex without contraceptives available. Just where the hell did you get that thought?

Comment #87: Roivas  on  12/10  at  11:14 AM

Yeah, when I was a teen I would rather have cut off a hand than admit to my parents that I needed Plan B (not that it was available at the time).  If it had been and I had experienced a contraceptive failure I would have just waited and saw and agonized a good deal about how on earth I was going to get an abortion without anyone finding out. Luckily it never happened.

Of course, I grew up Catholic and the sum total of the contraception education I got was my mother saying to me, “I hope you’re being sensible” when I started dating. My school certainly didn’t cover it. When I needed to know how to protect myself I went to the public library and read Sex for Dummies. But I was a smart, cautious, resourceful kid, and moreover I knew there was something I didn’t know. Lots of kids aren’t.

The availability to 10 and 11 year olds and up will likely change all kinds of middle and high school group behaviors over time.

Why do you think so? Do you know any 10 year olds? The majority of them are very child-like and do not.appear to be interested in having sex. I don’t see why the tiny minority that are sexually active at that age should be denied protection just because you think that *might* make your average Grade 5 student have turn into a raging sexpot.

Comment #88: KristinMH  on  12/10  at  11:15 AM

dave has made his position clear: Girls—-and only girls—-are into “mischief” when they have sex. Which is why many states have strict controls on keeping female-controlled contraception away from girls. It is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that we find out who the sluts are by the pregnant bellies.

Of course, male-controlled contraception is not controlled by the state, but available to anyone who wants it, no questions asked. But that’s okay. Sex is not “mischief” when boys do it. We certainly wouldn’t want a young man’s entire life ruined because the slut he was pronging didn’t use birth control that she couldn’t get a hold of anyway.

My brain hurts by the obviousness of the double standard, that the stubbornness of men like dave in not seeing it.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  11:17 AM

If the argument is that teenagers aren’t capable of making such an important decision on their own, let’s look at the consequence of a hasty, ill-considered choice: they don’t have a kid.

It seems to me we should be erring on the side of “no kid.”  Really, the only reason to give parents a say (and the only real reason the right is upset about this, can’t speak for the parents-rights liberals) is to allow parents the ability to talk them out of using it.

Given my participation in roughly 1,000,000 obnoxious custody battles (between Grandparents and parents more often than you’d imagine—if Mom and dad force daughter to have a kid when she’s 14, guess who raises the kid—then guess who starts a battle when daughter is ready to be on her own), I’m almost of the opinion that Plan B should be served with school lunches from middle school on.  Just crush it up and put it in the Salisbury steak (some sarcasm there, but probably not enough).

Of course, it’s not like there are fewer custody fights and general awful parenting (the two aren’t the same) involving 20 year olds or 25 or 30…

Comment #90: doubtthat  on  12/10  at  11:18 AM

When are we, as a society, going to start publicly admitting that:

1. We were not virgins when we got married - if we ever got married.
2. We were sexually active as teenagers.
3. It was a beautiful thing?

YES THANK YOU.  I wish we could just get the collevtive stick out of our asses when it comes to sex.

Comment #91: KristinMH  on  12/10  at  11:20 AM

dave, the Dutch for two generations now have embraced a “teenagers have sex and that’s fine” attitude, and their kids don’t start having sex any earlier than ours. Meanwhile, their teenage pregnancy and STI rates are vanishingly small compared to ours. Your contention has been disproved.

Less than 1% of 11-year-olds have sex. Those who do are in a very different life situation than most kids, and the notion that they’re going to dramatically modify their behavior because of Plan B is silly.

You continue to argue as if Plan B is the only kind of contraception in play here. Ih fact, 11-year-olds can legally buy condoms, but so far, your fears have no proved valid for it. Of course, condoms are male-controlled contraception. Your double standard couldn’t be more obvious. “Kids” having sex means girls having sex, and you see pregnancy as a proper punishment for their unchaste ways. Disgusting.

Comment #92: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  11:24 AM

I wish we could just get the collevtive stick out of our asses when it comes to sex.

There has to be a better way to say that…

Comment #93: doubtthat  on  12/10  at  11:24 AM

Well, there’s a time and place for a stick up your ass, and it’s not when you’re contemplating public health policy affecting the most vulnerable amongst us.

Comment #94: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  11:26 AM

Well, there’s a time and place for a stick up your ass, and it’s not when you’re contemplating public health policy affecting the most vulnerable amongst us.

And certainly some type of lubrication must be mentioned before that path is even considered.

Comment #95: doubtthat  on  12/10  at  11:28 AM

However, we virtually never talk about it in the public square.

I know a woman who lives east of the Rockies who is one of the pillars of her Lutheran church, and she fooled around with her husband before she was married, contrary to the tenants of this church, of which her father was a practicing minister at the time.

 

Comment #96: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  11:35 AM

My wife and I have a now-3yo daughter. We both agree that she goes on the pill the minute she turns 14. Much better safe than sorry. This all presumes she’s straight, of course: no way to tell, now. Our mission as we see it is not to prevent her from having sex: this would be impossible as well as problematic from the point of view of her growing autonomy. Our mission is to do what we can to keep her away from asshole sociopathic jock/businessman boys and to understand that such boys are unattractive despite their appealing cockiness.

Thus, she stays busy: academic enrichment, art/music, sports, some kind of community work, creative downtime. This will at least make it more probable that the pool of boys she interacts with will be the sort of people we will be less uncomfortable with her having sex with. If the guy is some nice nerdy kid who likes robots and is clearly sweet on HER as much as he is focused on sex in general, then I’m going to whisper the serenity prayer whenever I catch myself thinking “That’s my BABY you’re touching!” and have a cocktail and let it go. But if he’s some asswipe wannabe playa/gangbanger/jock/CEO, then it’s going to be a different story, where we have to talk about good decisions v bad ones.

The thing about liberalism is that it’s aspirational: there’s a lot of parents out there who would like to be real cool and Dutch about their kids’ (oh, who am I kidding: their daughters’) budding sexuality, but then the culturally-imprinted and not entirely wrong urge to protect, which is older than liberalism, buts in. This is why I think when Amanda says:

The point is those people are WRONG, they should be TOLD they are wrong, and they should not be indulged their nasty control fantasies.

she’s being utterly counterproductive, and this was a classic example of a clueless non-parent trying to tell parents something they know better about. Now, it’s wrong to think that denying kids Plan B will actually make them not have sex, so if you want to go that route, fine, but telling parents their desire to protect their daughters from horrible predator boys is WRONG in all caps is really going to drive those voters into the arms of Rick Fucking Santorum. And Obama knows this, even if he obviously thinks it’s bullshit.

But even if it’s a bad guy, if she comes to me and says she needs Plan B, we’ll put on our shoes and walk to the store, with the tradeoff being I won’t give you a hard time for it since you were mature enough to figure out the problem and how to deal with it. Same goes for phoning me in the middle of the night drunk at a party where nobody’s sober enough to drive.

Comment #97: felagund  on  12/10  at  11:40 AM

See, I feel that Amanda’s remark about those parents being absolutely wrong and needing to be told that they are wrong was the best comment on the thread.  And I’m a parent. Of girls, too.

The science shows the opposite, and letting parents pretend otherwise in order to “protect” their daughters, when they really are repressing them *is* wrong.  Obama is wrong here.  Sebelius is wrong here.

It reminds me of th notice my pediatrician’s office put up recently advising patients’ parents that they were following the CDC and APA recommendations for vaccines, and if you don’t want to vaccinate your child on the proper schedule, you should find a new practice.  Not vaccinating your kids is *wrong*; it’s scientifically bullshit.  It’s parents pretending they know better for some woo reasons, the same way they know better how to “protect” their daughters.

Plan B should be sold next to condoms.  And it should be just as cheap.  If you don’t want your kids to use it, well, you can indoctrinate them their whole lives as best you can, but it’s still their life to live.

And erring on the side of teens not becoming parents is a good thing.

Comment #98: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/10  at  11:56 AM

Wow, Amanda @ 85, 86 89 92.  You are reading a lot into what I said or you are baiting me.  I agree with you about the gender issues involved, and I never even implied that my permission was needed (as a gay man, maybe I’m just too objective here, or understand the importance of STD protection better).  I really don’t want to see anyone punished for sex, including the 40 sexual partners involved for each pregnancy prevented (see above for the math) at risk for an STD, when people say “What the hell—I’ll just get Plan B tomorrow.”  Remember there is still a choice once pregnant, although more difficult/expensive.

You seem to be arguing that since boys control condoms, it’s only fair girls get Plan B.  I don’t disagree, but that isn’t the only criteria one should consider.  To say that behaviors won’t be changed by Plan B is naive, and it is probably the boys who will cause “mischief” by figuring out how to use it to their coercive advantage.  America is not the Netherlands, we are far more fucked-up by religion and probably lacking in sex ed, but that is a whole other discussion. 

I tried to bring some unique thought to the conversation, instead I got attacked ad hominem with predictable cries of misogyny.  Ironic, since I commented here because of all the feminist blogs I read I thought you were a little more open-minded.

Comment #99: daveinmpls  on  12/10  at  12:21 PM

this was a classic example of a clueless non-parent trying to tell parents something they know better about.

really? because it sounds to me way more like “this is a person who still remembers what it was like as a teenager telling people who have obviously forgotten shit that should be obvious.”

Congratulations. from your anecdotal description of what you would do, you are less awful than a typical parent. But even if you were completely typical, and you were completely nonjudgmental, the law isn’t set up assuming everyone is civilized, polite and rational. Especially laws regarding children. If everyone were polite and reasonable, we wouldn’t need laws against locking children in closets, beating them, or putting penises inside them.

You aren’t nonjudgmental, by the way. if your daughter had sex with a “wannabe playa/gangbanger/jock/CEO” because he was good looking or even she wanted to actually date him because being on the football/track/etc team doesn’t make him a bad person even if you think so. And being forced to have a “talk about good vs bad decisions” is literally you sitting in judgment. It’s a punishment. Having a good free throw and calling people “bro” doesn’t actually make him a bad person/decision any more than being an ostensibly polite nerd who likes robots makes him not a date rapist.

And even is she IS dating a genuinely nice robo-nerd, requiring her to have a conversation wherein she has to explain the condom broke, followed by a clinic visit to get a scrip to then go to a pharmacy is an unreasonable burden. When she could simply “go to the store and buy it?” And that’s even with a nice, understanding parent.

The only positive of this decision for anyone is that control freak parents get to maintain one additional aspect of control. It won’t prevent sex. It certainly won’t prevent pregnancies. It won’t facilitate communication. And it doesn’t even prevent attack ads against obama on this specific issue, because all they need is swirling newspaper headlines and white Impact font on a black background saying “Under the Obama administration, the FDA to sell the abortion pill to children.” They have no obligation to mention that an Administration representative overruled the FDA, nor any indication that the FDA is independent enough to make this decision on their own.

“No good can come of this” is the most apt description.

Comment #100: karpad  on  12/10  at  12:32 PM

You’re working under the assumption that teenagers or tweens would have less sex without contraceptives available. Just where the hell did you get that thought?

Probably from the Pope.  This is a myth straight out of any conservative talking point bulletin, and for some reason a lot of liberals like to believe it anyway.

Comment #101: bananacat  on  12/10  at  12:36 PM

My wife and I have a now-3yo daughter. We both agree that she goes on the pill the minute she turns 14.

And she doesn’t get any say in it?  Also, what happens if she is one of the women who experiences bad side effects from it?

Don’t you think it would be better to educate her on all types of birth control, strongly encourage pill use, but let her decide?  And no matter what you do, you need to realize that pregnancy is only one potential risk, and you need to explain that to her too.  If she’s have sex on the pill but without a condom, she’s still at risk for STDs.

If the guy is some nice nerdy kid who likes robots and is clearly sweet on HER as much as he is focused on sex in general, then I’m going to whisper the serenity prayer whenever I catch myself thinking “That’s my BABY you’re touching!” and have a cocktail and let it go.

Wow, have you ever read a feminist blog in your entire life?  Assholes aren’t just jocks.  In fact, nerd spaces are one of the easiest places to find raging misogyny.  Nerdy boys who are into robots are just as likely to be misogynist, but even more likely to be bitter about it because the bitchez don’t see him for the Nice Guy he is and instead flock to the attractive jocks.

As a nerdy woman, I can tell you with absolute certainly that your little baby won’t be safe if she just sticks to band geeks and science nerds.

Also, you are clearly not comfortable at all with your <strike>property</strike> baby becoming a sexually autonomous person.  Would you cringe so hard if you had a son that would eventually be sexually active?  And why would you be so mad at the boy touching your baby, but not the baby herself (who won’t be a baby at the time, BTW)?  Is it because you buy into the rape culture trope that girls never want sex and only do it by giving in to predatory boys?

Instead of patting yourself on your back, you need to take a step back and realize just how conservative you are.  Until you really genuinely accept that it’s ok for teenage girls to make their own decisions about having sex, and that even applies to your daughter who you don’t own, then you don’t deserve a cookie or a medal.

Comment #102: bananacat  on  12/10  at  12:50 PM

My experience with my own striving immigrant parents and the striving immigrant parents of most of my friends is more in line with exholt’s. Teenaged boyfriends/girlfriends/sex are considered to be the decadent habits of lazy and complacent Americans who don’t care enough about their schoolwork.

Not only that, but if one attended highly rigorous high schools like the one I attended, it is rare for someone to be able to balance dating/romantic relationships, academics, extracurriculars, family time, and sleep without having some or all falling short. 

Unless one was practically a genius….and there were quite a few at such schools….most classmates I knew who were even just merely dating, much less in serious romantic relationships in high school tended to be part of the voluntary 28% attrition rate within the first two years of my entering first-year class or end up graduating near/at the bottom of the class because balancing all of that becomes too impossible to maintain for most.  Especially considering most students have long commutes of 1-2 hours each way and may even have afterschool/part-time jobs. 

This was one reason why nearly every high school classmates’ parents, immigrant or not, tried to persuade us to “save dating for college” or later so that one’s education/career goals aren’t negatively impacted.

Comment #103: exholt  on  12/10  at  12:54 PM

Having a good free throw and calling people “bro” doesn’t actually make him a bad person/decision any more than being an ostensibly polite nerd who likes robots makes him not a date rapist.

Thanks for pointing that out. I applaud the desire to want your daughter to date boys who treat her right, but yeah, liking robots doesn’t automatically make you a good person any more than liking football or business management makes you a douche.

Comment #104: junk science  on  12/10  at  12:59 PM

Karpad, I’m not saying I support the decision nor that Plan B should only be available by prescription. it’s a stupid decision and one based on crass politics. A better society would not reach for the smelling salts whenever the subject of actually enjoying sex comes up. I’m saying that under the current regime we would walk to the store together.

The cluelessness in Amanda’s statement is in not understanding that telling parents that disallowing PB is wrong is NOT going to make them think you’re telling them that protecting their kids is wrong.

And I’m not saying I’m not judgmental. I’m a parent: it’s my job to be judgmental. The trick is to understand when to relax about it. Judging by appearance is just playing the odds: the guy in the backwards baseball hat and the sports jersey MAY be a decent human being but even if so is likely to be heavily influenced by date-rape culture, whereas the nerdy kid MAY in fact be a date-rapist but is more likely to be heavily influenced by somewhat more egalitarian subcultures. I was using jock v nerd as quick shorthand: actual parenting will entail rather more individuated scrutiny.

Comment #105: felagund  on  12/10  at  01:01 PM

Not only that, but if one attended highly rigorous high schools like the one I attended, it is rare for someone to be able to balance dating/romantic relationships, academics, extracurriculars, family time, and sleep without having some or all falling short.

I find this hard to believe.  I went to a prestigious engineering university, and most students managed to work hard and still enjoy their new-found freedom by going to parties and experimenting with sex.  Plenty of us even managed relationships with varying levels of seriousness.  There was a running joke that freshman engineering students never see the light of day, because we had class from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. and then spent tons of time in the library for group projects.  Yes, plenty of students did drop out or switch to an easier major, but all the students that stuck with it still managed to have a social life, even the ones who were there on full basketball scholarships.  If you can only handle the work if you give up your social life, then it’s probably not the right path for you.

This was one reason why nearly every high school classmates’ parents, immigrant or not, tried to persuade us to “save dating for college” or later so that one’s education/career goals aren’t negatively impacted.

If you’re too overwhelmed with schoolwork and extracurriculars in high school, it certainly won’t be any easier in college.  If you couldn’t manage dating during high school, then you definitely won’t be able to manage it if you go to any decent college.

Comment #106: bananacat  on  12/10  at  01:02 PM

Instead of patting yourself on your back, you need to take a step back and realize just how conservative you are.

Eh. It’s one thing to rationalize your conservative instincts and act on them, and another to acknowledge and actively try to overcome them. I don’t really have a problem with the latter if it’s done without too much self-congratulation.

Comment #107: junk science  on  12/10  at  01:13 PM

And she doesn’t get any say in it?  Also, what happens if she is one of the women who experiences bad side effects from it?

Shorthand again. “She goes on the pill” = “She will be comprehensively educated about contraception and relationships, with an emphasis on precaution”.

And I’ve never made any claim not to be conservative: I’m a pretty typical urban liberal professional parent, which is to say that while I believe in large-scale issues of economic and social justice, I’m going to put my family’s welfare before the liberal shibboleth du jour. It’s just that conservative has become a bad word, because the people calling themselves conservatives are really nutcase reactionaries.

And of course I’m not comfortable with my daughter becoming a sexually autonomous person. Our culture has deeply fucked-up attitudes about sex, and the consequences of typical teenage decision-making can be highly problematic. I’m trying to deal with the discomfort by making sure she’s well-educated and has a decent moral compass—by which I specifically DON’T mean thinking sex or pleasure for its own sake are shameful—and by doing what I can to ensure that her dating pool is made up of relatively enlightened boys. This will of course fail, but hopefully not catastrophically.

I don’t have a son, so this is hypothetical, but he would receive a comprehensive education about medical and emotional issues, be encouraged to think of sex as including other activities as well as PIV, and be kept busy and to the extent possible away from the truly toxic aspects of boy culture. And yes, I’d be worried about his becoming sexually active, because what if she’s a toxic, trashy asshole? It’s not about kids being property: it’s about my own responsibility to ensure they’re properly “launched” and able to be autonomous without having to deal with the repercussions of encounters with toxic people in their adolescence. And yes, having PB available OTC would make this easier.

Comment #108: felagund  on  12/10  at  01:18 PM

Not only that, but if one attended highly rigorous high schools like the one I attended, it is rare for someone to be able to balance dating/romantic relationships, academics, extracurriculars, family time, and sleep without having some or all falling short.

Eh… like most places, the top of the social and academic hierarchy, even at your elite magnet school, dated. It’s just that this group, being socially and academically savvy Americans, were a bit better-placed to navigate both the social and academic pathways than you or I were. Our immigrant families were just trying to protect us and avoid what they perceived as risk-taking when there was so much at stake. Also, people in that immigrant cohort lacked the social capital and social expectations that would allow them to form those relationships.

In typical, average, schools, yes, the hard-working, academics-above-all typically-immigrant cream rises to the top. By confirmation bias in these situations, since Americans date, and most Americans in an average place are average or below, and the natural conclusion is, “dating is for lazy Americans who are below average because they don’t care about school work and instead care about socializing.” But if you put all of that achiever group together in the same place, you find a socially charismatic/savvy/desirable group who are also academically successful.

Comment #109: Tyro  on  12/10  at  01:18 PM

If you’re too overwhelmed with schoolwork and extracurriculars in high school, it certainly won’t be any easier in college.  If you couldn’t manage dating during high school, then you definitely won’t be able to manage it if you go to any decent college.

Actually, that’s not my experience or those of most high school classmates.  If anything, we’ve mostly found college to be far easier than high school in terms of the workload and rigor even when we’re taking the hardest courses/most accelerated paths/course overloads, including those who went into engineering/CS.  Most of us found we had much more free time and the college-level workloads were more manageable or in some cases…even easy. 

Only those who went to schools like MIT, Caltech, CMU, Reed, UChicago, or Swarthmore felt differently as they felt the workload was equivalent.  Even then, a few classmates at the above “grinder schools” felt they had more free time/easier workloads and had the high GPAs and/or 4 year or less BS/MS degrees to prove it. 

Incidentally, engineering/CS is one of the most popular majors for those graduating from my urban public magnet.

Comment #110: exholt  on  12/10  at  01:27 PM

felagund, I would tell a son that he should only have sex when he is ready, not because of peer/cultural pressure; my mothers’ advice, “You can’t just fuck someone, you have to be able to talk to them afterwards.”; and Nelson Algren’s dictum, “Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own.”

Comment #111: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  01:40 PM

I’m going to put my family’s welfare before the liberal shibboleth du jour…And of course I’m not comfortable with my daughter becoming a sexually autonomous person. Our culture has deeply fucked-up attitudes about sex, and the consequences of typical teenage decision-making can be highly problematic.

I understand what you’re doing here, but the “it’s not that I don’t trust you; I just don’t trust everyone else” attitude is a huge part of what creates that fucked-up culture in the first place. My mother always told me she wished I were straight specifically because we live in a world that treats gays as second-class citizens; she never managed to see how much she wasn’t helping by lecturing and crying and blaming and shaming me for being gay and “ruining my life.” It was fine for other people to be gay, and she had absolutely nothing, nothing at all, against gays, but it sure as fuck wasn’t going to be her child who was gay.

I don’t put your language anywhere near that extreme, but you’re edging on “liberalism is fine for other people, but I have to look out for my family.” Liberalism exists to make your and my family’s life better, not to give us street cred or make us feel superior to reactionaries. It works on small scales as well as large ones.

Comment #112: junk science  on  12/10  at  01:45 PM

It’s sad that all your classmates ended up at schools that were easier than high school.  I would think the point of going to such a rigorous high school program in the first place is to get into better colleges, not mediocre ones.

Comment #113: bananacat  on  12/10  at  01:47 PM

felagund, I would tell a son that he should only have sex when he is ready, not because of peer/cultural pressure; my mothers’ advice, “You can’t just fuck someone, you have to be able to talk to them afterwards.”; and Nelson Algren’s dictum, “Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own.”

This isn’t universally true.  I’ve had sex with men who I didn’t talk to afterwards, by mutual agreement.  Sometimes the guys I’m sexually compatible with don’t share any other interests with me.  It’s not fer everyone, but it worked for us because we were honest about it from the beginning.  There are people they I only play D&D with and never do anything else with besides that, so I don’t see why it has to be so different when it comes to sex.

Comment #114: bananacat  on  12/10  at  01:50 PM

I’m going to put my family’s welfare before the liberal shibboleth du jour.

No, you’re not.  You’re gonna teach your daughter that a certain type of men are generally more trustworthy than a different type of men, but that isn’t true.  If one of your pet robot-loving nerds turns out to be a rapist, will you be able to pull your head out of your ass and actually believe your daughter?  Or will you stick to your stereotypes and blame her for it?  And if she meets a jock who is a genuinely good boyfriend, will you disapprove of it?

You think you’re protecting your daughter, but you’re hurting her more than you realize.  And on top of all that, you’ll probably give her some fucked up emotional issues.  Whether you like it or not, it’s her body and her right to have sex when and with whom she wants (as long as they consent).  And if you can’t accept that, you’ll end up with liver cirrhosis for all the times you drink when someone touches your property.

Comment #115: bananacat  on  12/10  at  01:54 PM

Oh also, respecting women’s sexual autonomy isn’t some “shibboleth du jour”.  It’s just the right thing to do.  But go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back for maintaining the status quo while pretending that you’re doing something special.

Comment #116: bananacat  on  12/10  at  01:58 PM

<blockquote>It’s sad that all your classmates ended up at schools that were easier than high school.  I would think the point of going to such a rigorous high school program in the first place is to get into better colleges, not mediocre ones.<blockquote>

The HS classmates who ended up at colleges easier than high school included those who ended up at the Ivies(~top 25%) or peer elite institutions or top LACs other than Swarthmore or Reed.  Several Profs I’ve chatted with mentioned that this experience was quite common from students who were alums of highly rigorous high schools like the one I attended due to the high expectations, rigor, and workload expected at such institutions. 

I include myself in this camp having attended a respectable, but not tippytop LAC.  However, keep in mind unlike my more accomplished HS classmates…I graduated much closer to the bottom of my HS class.

Comment #117: exholt  on  12/10  at  02:03 PM

Only those who went to schools like MIT, Caltech, CMU, Reed, UChicago, or Swarthmore felt differently as they felt the workload was equivalent.

I was educated in pre Prop 13 California schools, which hadn’t felt the sting of Reaganism yet.

My own experience and that of my peers was that the coursework at the Harvard of the Midwest was demanding for STEM and upper-level courses in the other departments, like humanities and the like, the art department illustration/graphics majors were infamous for pulling allnighters in order to be ready for their critique in the morning class.

Many of us were the children/grandchildren of immigrants, who of course were socialized to be Americans first, little changed from Malcolm Crowley’s time, so dating was a common practice amongst my peers. 

This was over 30 years ago, and should be seen as a historical snapshot.

We were the 2nd school of choice for some from the Chicago/NYC region, there were also legacies from the St. Louis area, but the only major that was seen as the ‘easiest’ was that of art history major.

I had a dormmate who chose to make that his major, but because of his Jewish background, he had to seek my help to understand the Christian theology that underlines the important paintings of Europe from Giotto to the 18th Century, and of course it was almost a comedy routine to explain the basics of Catholic theology to understand what the paintings in question represented/were about.

Otherwise, we were a pretty unsupervised lot, and people pursued their interests whist maintaining the well-known Midwest decorum expected of us all. We lacked being able to declare a minor, and there were the occasional double-majors, who were the overachievers, the creme de la creme of our ranks.

Comment #118: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  02:26 PM

dave, the notion that your “gut feeling” about kids and sex should overrule the science is simply not arguable. And the science is there, as detailed out by Susan Wood in her WaPo editorial:

I am also a parent of a younger teen daughter, and I truly empathize with Obama’s nervousness as his girls grow up. But as a parent and a scientist, I agree with the FDA that this drug is safe and effective for females of all ages. A review of the data shows that the availability of emergency contraception does not promote earlier or riskier sexual activity, but rather can prevent an unintended pregnancy if a woman — or adolescent — needs it.

Unless you have DATA that counteracts the immense amounts of DATA that shows your gut feeling is simply wrong, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

Of course, even if forced pregnancy does have a slight—-and historically, it’s always been slight—-chilling effect on people’s sexual desire, and even if you believe that women (for all your claims to be egalitarian about this, your actual concerns are clearly female-only) being scared out of fucking is a good outcome, you also have to make the argument that the price you’re willing to pay, mandatory pregnancy against women’s will, is not excessive. I believe that it is. For the “crime” of being 14 and sexually active, I think mandatory pregnancy is an excessive punishment.

So these are the things you need to prove for your argument to make sense:

1) Plan B is significantly different than condoms in some fundamental way that will encourage “promiscuity”. To do this, you will have to demonstrate that a $50 one-time drug that causes nausea is somehow easier, more affordable, and more attractive than condoms that have no side effects and cost about $1 a piece.
2) Sex is inherently wrong for young people, so much so that it’s worth inducing avoidable consequences in order to discourage it.
3) You have to bring forward data that is better than the kind the FDA examined that demonstrated no link between access to Plan B and increased sexual activity.
4) That forced pregnancy is a suitable punishment for the “crime” of having sex as a minor.

That’s a tall order, and instead of whining, I think you need to get to work.

Should be able to

 

Comment #119: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  02:30 PM

@daveinmpls:

You are making an empirically testable claim: having plan B available over the counter to anyone at any age will make people less likely to use other forms of birth control that would also prevent STIs. I just don’t believe this claim. Do you have any evidence to think this is the case? Plan B is expensive and has to be taken right away, meaning even in the otc situation, teens have to somehow get to a drug store and be unembarrassed enough to buy it. Can they drive? Do they have a car? Do they have a spare $50 bucks that their parents won’t notice is missing?

I also *highly* doubt the scenario you suggest of a manipulative boy coercing an unwilling girl into having sex that she would have otherwise refused except he tossed her a $50 plan B pill. Let’s focus on the likely, knowable scenarios that in a country with 22 million teens, some non-negligible number of them will give birth or have an abortion because plan B was not easily available.

In an earlier post, you also stated that it would be a *bad* thing if girls who were being sexually abused could get plan B without a prescription. I completely do not understand this logic. Are you saying that girls should be forced to reveal that they are being abused by becoming visibly pregnant?

Feminist blog =/= safe space for men to discuss their opinions without being called out for the effect their ideas have on women.

Comment #120: Safron  on  12/10  at  02:33 PM

How many girls are impregnated by their fathers, older brothers, uncles or grandfather s and those girls are supposed to tell their parents to get them Plan B?  Yea, THAT’S gonna happen!

Comment #121: cheyenne  on  12/10  at  02:38 PM

And since I know the answer to #1 will be baseless assumptions about the inherent irresponsibility of teenage boys, I’m going to return to good ol’ scientific data. Contraception use at first intercourse is way up, with 79% of girls and 87% of boys reporting it. The proportion of kids using contraception goes up after that, with 84% of girls and 93% of boys reporting using contraception the last time that had sex. Compare that to the pre-1985 numbers, where it was below 60% reporting. The condom is the most popular form of contraception amongst minors. 95% of sexually active teenage girls report having experience with condoms. 

The gap between boys and girls is a weird one, I know, but I suspect that’s because a small percentage of sexually active girls are with age-inappropriate partners. Those situations tend to feature less attention to sexual health.

The vast majority of teenagers having sex are doing so in age-appropriate relationships. Those relationships are more likely to feature regular contraception use. The notion that contraception drives kids wild is simply baseless. Contraception tends to be picked up mainly by kids who are being responsible and as respectful as teenagers can be.

My general feeling about sex is that there’s a learning curve, no matter what age you start. People who wait until they’re 20 just make all their stupid sex mistakes at 20 instead of 16. Most people who have sex in high school are healthy, happy individuals—-there’s no real data to suggest that choosing to be sexual is inherently bad for you as a teenager. There are higher rates of some dysfunctions amongst sexually active teens, but I suspect if you controlled for exploitative situations and economic class, that would change dramatically, demonstrating no causal relationship.

Comment #122: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  02:46 PM

Hi Amanda @119

1.  Young men hate condoms and will look for ways to make Plan B Plan A, also not having a condom will not be an excuse for not having sex.  BTW—Women do have control over condoms—they can buy them and they can insist on their use.  I understand that very few do.

2.  Never claimed this.  If I was parent, my kids would be first well educated and sons stocked with condoms and girls with Plan B or the pill if they had a steady relationship.

3.  According to the FDA, they only studied whether the drug was safe and effective.  Where is your data?

4.  Already addressed that.  You are putting words in my mouth because there can be no reasoned disagreement with you on this, only misogyny.

Comment #123: daveinmpls  on  12/10  at  02:54 PM

“The first girl to go to Planned Parenthood and get birth control without her parents will spread that knowledge through her peer group with rapid speed.”

Hell, it’s been that way since I was a teenager in the 1970s. We all knew how it worked (at least in NY state.) My girlfriend and I went together to Planned Parenthood and she got a prescription for BC pills. (And a gyn exam, which her squeamish parents somehow didn’t think was important for a 17 year-old.) All without her parents’ knowledge.

Why do you think the wingnuts hate PP so much? It’s not just over abortion.

It’s all just politics again, Obama going along with it to pre-emptively remove a club the wingnuts would beat him with in the election.

Comment #124: Joe Max  on  12/10  at  03:00 PM

Amanda @119 Safron @120

Actually, here is a study that supports your point in this article from Think Progress http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2006/08/27/7122/kristol-plan-b/

Comment #125: daveinmpls  on  12/10  at  03:00 PM

I’ve had sex with men who I didn’t talk to afterwards, by mutual agreement.  Sometimes the guys I’m sexually compatible with don’t share any other interests with me.  It’s not fer everyone, but it worked for us because we were honest about it from the beginning

That was almost unheard of in my day, and her advice was for having a long-term relationship in addition to the sex,  and knowing that a chatterer like me couldn’t be happy with silence after sex in the first place.

There are people they I only play D&D with and never do anything else with besides that, so I don’t see why it has to be so different when it comes to sex.

There’s a lot of bullshit and cultural programming about sex and exclusivity when the biology is clear that we aren’t a long-term monogamous species.

Comment #126: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  03:04 PM

Hahahahahaah, dave did what I predicted with #1. Dave: Data. Please produce data instead of make baseless assertions. I provided data demonstrating that boys do, in fact, wear condoms. They may not prefer it, but they prefer it to not getting laid.

#3: The FDA did compile data showing no link between increased amounts of sexual activity and Plan B. Of course, even if there was a small increase, you have to return to arguing that there’s something just so awful about sex that it’s better if a 16-year-old only has it once a month instead of twice a month, or whatever.

If you believe #2 and #4, there is no reason not to make Plan B available over the counter. No reason whatsoever. What’s your objection? Please keep it short and simple. If you don’t object to sex, and, as you claim, are not a sexist (I’m skeptical), and you have no evidence whatsoever that Plan B increases sex

You keep circling around this strange notion that less sex is automatically good, though. Not less pregnancy and STIs, of course, because we can reduce those while keeping actual numbers of times having sex level or even increased. Please prove that less sex is an intrinsic good.

Comment #127: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  03:08 PM

Oh, I can tell you about how there was a downside (for me) using contraception at first intercourse. I did, in the *1960s* (thank you very much) but the awful deed occurred at her house (we were both 15) and I stupidly left the condom wrapper laying on the floor of her bedroom - which was found by her father.

An amusing anecdote except for one thing: he proceeded to beat the shit out of her until she told him my name. Blackened both of her eyes, in fact. When my parents found out they spent about 5 minutes bemoaning my lost virginity, until I told my father what HER father had done to get my name. Then he wanted to kick the guy’s ass himself. In their heated conversation my father offered to pay for her pregnancy test, and told the asshole that if he didn’t just “sweep this under the rug” he would report the asshole to child protective services for child abuse.

And he was actually (though reluctantly) proud of me that I was “smart enough to use protection.”

Comment #128: Joe Max  on  12/10  at  03:09 PM

Also, Dave, your #1 second assertion is false, as well. Women buy a lot of condoms. It’s just a stereotype—-you really like those!—-that men are the sole purchasers of condoms.

That link you provided shows that the data shows no increase in amount of sexual activity and access to Plan B. In case there was confusion.

So, we have demonstrated:

#1: Baseless. Kids like condoms precisely because they’re cheap and effective. For teenagers, they are their favorite form. (In people’s 20s, it shifts to the pill.)
#2 & #4: Dave gave up on these. Therefore he actually has no argument, but in order to prove his assertion that we should restrict Plan B to reduce sexual activity, he needed to prove all four points. Giving up on two points is conceding the argument.
#3: The evidence shows no increase in sexual activity because of Plan B access.

Dave, I believe we are done here. I’m sorry your feelings are hurt because women do not like men telling us that we have to endure humiliations in order to keep us from fucking so much. But let’s not get emotional here. You had an argument. It was thoroughly debunked. You don’t have to admit defeat, but I would suggest letting it go.

Comment #129: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  03:13 PM

Also, Dave, your #1 second assertion is false, as well. Women buy a lot of condoms. It’s just a stereotype—-you really like those!—-that men are the sole purchasers of condoms.

That link you provided shows that the data shows no increase in amount of sexual activity and access to Plan B. In case there was confusion.

So, we have demonstrated:

#1: Baseless. Kids like condoms precisely because they’re cheap and effective. For teenagers, they are their favorite form. (In people’s 20s, it shifts to the pill.)
#2 & #4: Dave gave up on these. Therefore he actually has no argument, but in order to prove his assertion that we should restrict Plan B to reduce sexual activity, he needed to prove all four points. Giving up on two points is conceding the argument.
#3: The evidence shows no increase in sexual activity because of Plan B access.

Dave, I believe we are done here. I’m sorry your feelings are hurt because women do not like men telling us that we have to endure humiliations in order to keep us from fucking so much. But let’s not get emotional here. You had an argument. It was thoroughly debunked. You don’t have to admit defeat, but I would suggest letting it go.

Comment #130: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/10  at  03:13 PM

My own experience and that of my peers was that the coursework at the Harvard of the Midwest was demanding for STEM and upper-level courses in the other departments, like humanities and the like, the art department illustration/graphics majors were infamous for pulling allnighters in order to be ready for their critique in the morning class.

Many of us were the children/grandchildren of immigrants, who of course were socialized to be Americans first, little changed from Malcolm Crowley’s time, so dating was a common practice amongst my peers.

As someone who grew up in a mostly White/Latino NYC neighborhood, the main worry among most neighborhood parents of kids with college potential was how to protect their kids from becoming the next statistic of violent crime, the then ongoing crack epidemic, teen pregnancy/STDs, video game addiction(Atari), and becoming a high school dropout.  There was also a heavy Catholic presence which did influence things though my family wasn’t religious…..especially in a Christian sense. 

Though it was heavy handed, it did seem to make sense at first glance considering most neighborhood kids dropped out of high school or sometimes because of the previously mentioned factors.  A few older such kids ended up dropping out of high school because they/their girlfriend became pregnant which effectively ended any dreams of a college education and a chance at a better life.  This heavyhandedness is 100% fear-based….with its associated lack of rational considerations….which ends up creating a cycle as their parents/grandparents had the same thing happen to them when they were adolescents. 

Among my high school classmates, the prevailing mentality was academics/extracurriculars/whatever it took to gain admission to elite/respectable university/LAC came before everything else and one was being “frivolous” if they thought otherwise.  In the early-mid ‘90s, it was mostly working/lower-middle class kids, immigrants/first generation kids, and slightly more than half of us were Asian/Asian-American.** 

Part of that was due to self-selection as most students who wanted a more mainstream high school experience…including dating tended to avoid high schools like the one I attended like the plague.  Easy to do as all they need to do is to not bother with the entrance exam. 

Another aspect was that the prevailing culture at my HS was such that most students reveled in “not being a mainstream American school”.....whether that was privileging the jocks/wealthy as “popular people”, denigrating/bullying the academic achiever nerds/geeks, or dating.  As one older alum once said, there aren’t too many American high schools where the math/debate teams and Westinghouse/Siemens/Intel Science finalists/semifinalists are universally idolized and it was the jocks and wealthy braggarts who are most ridiculed or sometimes even bullied for their supposed “lack of intelligence”**. 


* Heard it is now approaching 70% Asian/Asian-American. 

** Bullying at my high school was all verbal…..mostly academic elitist vicious remarks about one’s lack of intellect…except often communicated in more vicious un-PC terms….especially from some of the academically top 25% classmates.

Comment #131: exholt  on  12/10  at  03:14 PM

You seem to be arguing that since boys control condoms, it’s only fair girls get Plan B.  I don’t disagree, but that isn’t the only criteria one should consider.

Is it possible you are being accused of misogyny because you are saying that we shouldn’t be too hasty and should carefully consider the social consequences before we decide to treat girls fairly?

That’s why I say that at the root of the argument, it’s not even vaguely about parental rights.  It’s the argument that if women and girls are treated fairly, there will be terrible consequences.  The hypothetical consequences are wide and varied and imaginative, and they will always “need more study to find out the effects” of treating women and girls the same as men and boys.  And if there is a negative effect to someone, somewhere, that trumps the right of women and girls to be treated equally.  The parental rights idea was latched on to as an excuse for misogyny, but it’s the same thing in a different form.  How can people argue that parents have a right to decide whether their daughter should be forced to have a baby?  It’s just one of the many ways society makes the consequences of being female dire, and it has no other point than to make sure girls have to fear being female.

If parents want the right to know whether their children are having sex, then pass a law that says children have to fill out a form and give it to their parents after they have sex.  Apply it equally to boys and girls.  Don’t apply it only to girls and threaten a forced pregnancy to make them comply (though there’s no guarantee there won’t be a forced pregnancy anyway.)  That’s misogyny.

If society is worried about STD prevention, then pass a law that says children have to be educated about STD prevention.  Apply it equally to boys and girls.  Don’t make the responsibility for STD protection fall on girls for both themselves and their partners and threaten a forced pregnancy to make them comply.  That’s misogyny.

If someone is worried about abusers covering up their crimes by not getting girls pregnant, they’re lying.  Nobody who thinks that abused girls should be forced to get pregnant “for the greater good” has any concern for girls at all.

Comment #132: Nimravid  on  12/10  at  03:32 PM

Dave, what Amanda and Nimravid said, but also, you claimed

I agree with you about the gender issues involved, and I never even implied that my permission was needed (as a gay man, maybe I’m just too objective here, or understand the importance of STD protection better).

Really offensive part bolded by me, of course. Does being a straight woman make me more objective about issues concerning gay men? I am sure there are tons of homophobic opinions I could pull out of my ass and use to comment on blogs primarily devoted to those issues. Does being a white woman make me more objective about issues concerning black men? I have a racist mother so those completely untrue opinions should be even easier for me to bloviate about! Bonus in both cases: I could then whine about how unfair and how un-open-minded everyone was being!

This is the same bullshit that fuckwad Jesse Bering pulls when he decides to bullshit about basic evolutionary “truths” about women.

 

Comment #133: Atheist, A Feminist  on  12/10  at  03:46 PM

Dave, what Amanda and Nimravid said, but also, you claimed

I agree with you about the gender issues involved, and I never even implied that my permission was needed (as a gay man, maybe I’m just too objective here, or understand the importance of STD protection better).

Really offensive part bolded by me, of course. Does being a straight woman make me more objective about issues concerning gay men? I am sure there are tons of homophobic opinions I could pull out of my ass and use to comment on blogs primarily devoted to those issues. Does being a white woman make me more objective about issues concerning black men? I have a racist mother so those completely untrue opinions should be even easier for me to bloviate about! Bonus in both cases: I could then whine about how unfair and how un-open-minded everyone was being!

This is the same bullshit that fuckwad Jesse Bering pulls when he decides to bullshit about basic evolutionary “truths” about women.

Comment #134: Atheist, A Feminist  on  12/10  at  03:47 PM

Dammit. First comment in forever and I fuck it up. I swear that I checked twice and the comment hadn’t posted.

Comment #135: Atheist, A Feminist  on  12/10  at  03:48 PM

It bears repeating.  That comment was pretty offensive.

Comment #136: Nimravid  on  12/10  at  03:50 PM

You’re gonna teach your daughter that a certain type of men are generally more trustworthy than a different type of men, but that isn’t true.

I could totally argue that one. But since I specifically said that jock v nerd was shorthand, it would be moot. WE’RE going to teach OUR daughter* that there are certain behaviors that cue you in to whether someone is trustworthy or not. And that there are certain signifiers that often go with those behaviors. Caveat emptor, or caveat whatever Latin for “boinker” is. We’re going to help encourage personality traits and activities that help her pick decent guys over assholes. Or, alternatively, to understand that if she’s going to do the asshole just because he’s pretty, to use at least two forms of protection and to have a friend expecting a phone call after a couple of hours. She’s going to experiment: the point is are these calculated experiments being made by a clever and prudent girl, or is she acting out unsafely because of unmet issues or toxic societal expectations?

Oh also, respecting women’s sexual autonomy isn’t some “shibboleth du jour”.  It’s just the right thing to do.

The key word here being “women”. We have a duty to give our child increasing autonomy as she grows toward womanhood; but we also have a duty to develop in her the planning skills, knowledge, prudence and self-esteem that will encourage her to increase that autonomy in gradual and reasonably safe ways—insofar as teenagers can actually do that.

The point of this article and its comments is political: Obama made a scientifically atrocious decision based on cynical political calculation designed to pander to the more conservative among demographics like mine. To the extent that the counterargument is “well, keeping PB away from teens won’t actually prevent pregnancy,” or the even better “you’re just letting your hated enemies the crazy fundamentalists oppress people even further,” you can convince many of those people that this was the wrong decision. But the minute you get into “your desire to protect your children is WRONG,” it’s counterproductive.

* If anything, my wife, who was sorely neglected as a child and turned to acting out sexually all through her teens, with near-catastrophic consequences, is more concerned about this sort of thing than I the late bloomer from a stable, conflict-free middle class home

 

Comment #137: felagund  on  12/10  at  04:29 PM

I understand what you’re doing here, but the “it’s not that I don’t trust you; I just don’t trust everyone else” attitude is a huge part of what creates that fucked-up culture in the first place.

Agreed. There’s a line to walk here, though. My responsibility as a parent includes both pointing out and encouraging her—encouraging us—to work to un-fuckup the culture, AND protecting her from the worst aspects of that culture. Sorry about your mom; if it’s any consolation, no matter how successful I am professionally and how happy we are, my mother still wrings her hands every time she sees me and wishes that I had gone to medical school.

And also, in response to your and Bananacat’s dialogue above, I don’t necessarily think that our kid needs to be able to talk to everyone she has sex with. I just want her to be clear-eyed about why she’s doing something and take the appropriate precautions—and to be able to cope wisely if something turns out to be more problematic than she’d planned it to be.

Comment #138: felagund  on  12/10  at  04:44 PM

@#134 You are right. I should really watch my language. I should have said “detached,” so as not to imply what you read.  Sorry for the offense.

@130 You are still reading a lot into it that I didn’t say.  I couldn’t “give up” 2&4 because I never said them in the first place. Nice CYA.  As for #3 it appears you are right, but did you know that emergency contraception does not impact abortion rates or the rates of unintended pregnancy?  From a population study perspective it just doesn’t seem to exist, pro or con.  That’s really strange.

@132 I never said I was concerned with parental rights. Fairness, yes.  The STD responsibility should fall on both partners equally and I never said otherwise.  BTW teen girls have fair access to condoms and can insist on their use, so the issue is kind of false in the case of consensual sex. So this whole tit for tat fairness is a false issue Amanda introduced.  The abuser thing was brought up by a feminist arguing that currently an abuser can access Plan B to cover up his crime but the underage victim can’t.  But you’re right, no abuse victim should be forced to get pregnant. 

I’m signing off this thread.  Thanks for enlightening me.

Comment #139: daveinmpls  on  12/10  at  05:13 PM

Dave,

Detached doesn’t really change anything. Either:
1. being more detached makes you someone better to listen to than all of us involved women/feminists, in which case you should answer my questions about whether I as a straight woman am better to listen to on gay men’s issues since I’m more “detached” or
2. being detached means that you are detached from the issue and have no idea what you are talking about, which, while seemingly pretty true, raises the question of why the hell you posted in the first place.

If you’ve really left the thread, then you won’t get this, but it is worth pointing out that this is not a simple “poor choice of words” issue. It is a “I’m not subject to this particular oppression meaning I can look at it clearer” issue. Bullshit misogyny when you do it here and bullshit homophobia and racism if I were to follow through on my plan in comment 133/134, claiming either to be more “objective” or more “detached” as I did it.

Comment #140: Atheist, A Feminist  on  12/10  at  05:27 PM

“The STD responsibility should fall on both partners equally and I never said otherwise.”

I really don’t want to see anyone punished for sex, including the 40 sexual partners involved for each pregnancy prevented

All of the responsibility for STD prevention has been assigned to her.  She’s responsible for her partners’ STDs, and their partners, by selfishly choosing emergency contraception instead of a condom.  Her partner’s choice of STD prevention or lack of it is not discussed, only that she needs the threat of forced pregnancy to keep her from choosing birth control that doesn’t protect her partners, and their partners, from STDs.

“The abuser thing was brought up by a feminist arguing that currently an abuser can access Plan B to cover up his crime but the underage victim can’t.  But you’re right, no abuse victim should be forced to get pregnant.”

The good needs to be weighed against the harm caused by [...] the number of kids who will cover for an abuser (and abusers who force them to) by using Plan B, allowing them to remain uncaught and abuse other children.

I stand by my statement that anyone making this argument is a liar who doesn’t care about women or girls at all.  The way children could “cover” for an abuser by using Plan B is by not becoming pregnant.  The way abusers would be “caught” and, ha-ha, prosecuted would be if they got a kid pregnant.  I am glad the argument is so patently vile that you are ashamed enough to back out of making it even when your comment is on the screen for all to see.

Comment #141: Nimravid  on  12/10  at  06:24 PM

we aren’t a long-term monogamous species.

Depends what you meant by long term. Obviously it’s more common than not to divorce than have a 50 year long marriage. But it is much more common to partner with someone for the long term stay together long enough to raise a baby at least into early childhood, which is several years at a minimum.

Comment #142: Tyro  on  12/10  at  06:39 PM

The Latin is Sit fornicatur cave.

Comment #143: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  06:52 PM

If you couldn’t manage dating during high school, then you definitely won’t be able to manage it if you go to any decent college.

Honestly, the stakes are higher in high school, and parents know this, so there tends to be more of a prejudice against dating at that age if they want their kids to attain “achiever” status, and by college, you have more leeway to figure things out. We are discussing the social mainstream of America, though, so I am not sure how this discussion of exholt’s high school really applies beyond her consistent, “What about me?!” chime-ins on every thread. Middle class and upper middle class students from stable families are getting birth control and have parents more willing to buy their kids Plan B than risk having their college plans interfered with. That’s not what this FDA decision was about.

Comment #144: Tyro  on  12/10  at  07:01 PM

But it is much more common to partner with someone for the long term stay together long enough to raise a baby at least into early childhood, which is several years at a minimum.

That’s how it rolls in our culture, and even then there are considerations of class, ethnicity, national origin, etc in America where there are differences in how things are handled as well, and it wasn’t always that way:

But, at least to my mind, the more interesting question is why we still resist the concept of committed non-monogamy. Historian Stephanie Coontz, who is quoted only briefly in the Times piece, is uniquely poised to answer that question, having written the authoritative “Marriage, a History.” I spoke to Coontz by phone about evolving cultural definitions of romantic love, whether non-monogamy will ever gain acceptance and why we consider sexual fidelity so key to marriage.

What kind of cultural history is there for open marriage?

Not very much! In the late 18th century what was quite open was that men had rights that women didn’t have. We have stunning letters from American men of that period talking to fellow male friends, including a brother-in-law or a father-in-law, about how they contracted syphilis from a whore, how they visited a cute little prostitute! They were fully open about their non-monogamy but totally unaccepting of women’s non-monogamy. But that’s not what Dan Savage means by open marriage; he means equal rights to non-monogamy.

Now, certainly cross-culturally there have been a lot of societies that have built into the expectations of marriage a certain amount of tolerance [of affairs], and some of them even for females as well as males. In the United States, open marriage based on equality is really an untried institution — although there have always been exceptional individuals who have been able to do it. I think we’re getting more of them now as people come to marriage with more sexual experience, with higher expectations of friendship and intimacy, and less confusion of sexual attraction with love. I’m dubious, though, that we’ll ever institutionalize it.

And why is that? What is the main resistance to it?

I think it’s because we’re not the kind of society that has lots of very close, tight-knit relationships with a sense of interdependence that exists across the life cycle. So, we put more of our commitment eggs in the basket of our significant other. As long as that occurs, allowing sexual dalliances, which sometimes become invested with big emotions, will threaten that one source of obligation and altruism. Because we put this emphasis on the dyadic bond, it is a fairly rare couple that can go into [an open marriage] absolutely confident that [these other relationships] will not turn into something more threatening and permanent.

Comment #145: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  07:09 PM

And she doesn’t get any say in it?  Also, what happens if she is one of the women who experiences bad side effects from it?

Not only that, but what if she wants to have a child at 14???? What about that? How dare you take that choice away from her??? /snark

I like how this blog has greater capacity to empathize with the issues that teens face from a feminist perspective, but too many people quickly lose sight of the idea that parents do, in fact, get to and should make a lot of determinations for their children what is in their best interest, and that involves frequently determining what kinds of choices they have and in many cases making choices for them.

Comment #146: Tyro  on  12/10  at  07:25 PM

That’s how it rolls in our culture, and even then there are considerations of class, ethnicity, national origin, etc in America where there are differences in how things are handled as well, and it wasn’t always that way:

It’s funny you should point to an interview with Stephanie Coontz, because I was drawing on her writings regarding the fact that staying together for a while, long enough to raise babies into early childhood, and then having the marriage end in divorce or death of one partner soon after this, is very common not just in our society but across many cultures all over the world. While we may not be “wired” to mate for (a long) life as a species, we certainly seem to be drawn to serial long-term monogamy.

Comment #147: Tyro  on  12/10  at  07:30 PM

While we may not be “wired” to mate for (a long) life as a species, we certainly seem to be drawn to serial long-term monogamy.

That’s not really true:

Like most mammals, humans are not strictly monogamic. A tendency to social monogamy has evolved, however, and is subject to strong reinforcement by cultural factors, particularly religion. As a result, in a number of cultures monogamy is the predominant mating system; however, most cultures (about 85 %) are polygamic. For humans, the optimal evolutionary strategy is monogamy when necessary, polygamy when possible.


http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/01674820309042802

Comment #148: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/10  at  07:48 PM

The Latin is Sit fornicatur cave

Awesome. Is “sit” the equivalent of “May the…” or “Let the…”? Would it be grammatical to say “Sit emptor cave?”

Comment #149: felagund  on  12/10  at  08:21 PM

We are discussing the social mainstream of America, though, so I am not sure how this discussion of exholt’s high school really applies

While the effects of Sebelius’ decision affects everyone, especially women…..she and Obama are catering to very angsty parents worried about the potential distractions and dangers of adolescence.  Some of which may derail plans for high school graduation, college, and a decent start at a stable and hopefully upwardly mobile future….or in some cases…any future whatsoever.  The use of my high school classmates’ parents is to provide an example of that parental mentality taken to one of the extremes common in certain pockets of the US. 

I’ve also seen variants of this mentality among well-off suburban parents and Upper East Sider parents who fear any manifestation of their teen child(rens’)‘s sexuality is a portent of their family’s impending socio-economic ruin(i.e. Possible risks of their “investment” in the form of paying full-tuition for their child(ren)‘s college education, perceived social ridicule from neighbors/public, etc).  It’s one reason for the commonly discussed helicopter parent phenomenon among such parents well into the college years….and sometimes into the professional workplace. 

I like how this blog has greater capacity to empathize with the issues that teens face from a feminist perspective, but too many people quickly lose sight of the idea that parents do, in fact, get to and should make a lot of determinations for their children what is in their best interest, and that involves frequently determining what kinds of choices they have and in many cases making choices for them.

I think the point being made here is that parents may not only be unhelpful in such situations because of the accumulated socio-cultural baggage, but also because such parents are driven by the very emotions of fear, angst, and trying to live their ambitions through their kids that the effects of their decisions are actually counterproductive to their intentions of actually helping their children.

Comment #150: exholt  on  12/10  at  08:45 PM

parents do, in fact, get to and should make a lot of determinations for their children what is in their best interest, and that involves frequently determining what kinds of choices they have and in many cases making choices for them.

That’s a result of a responsibility of the parent to their child, not a right of the parent to control them.  As such it can never extend to overruling a child’s decision not to be fertile.

Comment #151: Nimravid  on  12/10  at  08:53 PM

Not only that, but what if she wants to have a child at 14???? What about that? How dare you take that choice away from her??? /snark

I realize you’re snarking, but have you even considered the alternative?  Would you really prefer to force her to have an abortion?

Comment #152: bananacat  on  12/10  at  10:18 PM

I guess if it were my child, I would hope that she could come to me to talk.  But if she couldn’t, then getting the pill without my knowledge would be okay.  I would prefer that she see a doctor to make sure that she is not only okay physically (diseases), but emotionally as well. 

I know for me, when I was young (17) with no experience at all outside of kissing and was raped by a friend, I had no one to go to.  I just hoped that I wasn’t pregnant because there was no doubt in my mind that my father would have kicked me out of the house and I wouldn’t be able to attend college. 

I knew lots of my friends at the time that had sex without protection and just hoped for the best.  Parents had no clue.

Comment #153: quietgirl  on  12/11  at  04:51 AM

Because concern trolling is one of my great joys in life, I tried hard to think of a single situation that would be improved by not having OTC access to Plan B. I got nothin.

Comment #154: purpleshoes0  on  12/11  at  10:03 AM

I think the point being made here is that parents may not only be unhelpful in such situations because of the accumulated socio-cultural baggage, but also because such parents are driven by the very emotions of fear, angst, and trying to live their ambitions through their kids that the effects of their decisions are actually counterproductive to their intentions of actually helping their children.

Pretty much. I mean, my mother after all these years has not learned, or refuses to accept that 99 percent of the people I come out to will not spit “you’re going to hell” in my face and never speak to me again. Family members have failed to disown me, friends have mysteriously decided not to abandon me, and my professional life has somehow remained intact. But data point after data point does nothing to change her mind. The next person I come out to will surely be the one to ruin me. But the fact is she just wanted to protect me, and still does.

I’m very much on board with felagund’s plans for his daughter. I think they’re as clear-eyed, practical, and adaptive as any I’ve ever seen. But I do understand where the resistance comes from.

Comment #155: junk science  on  12/11  at  12:04 PM

I’m of two or more minds about the decision. Yes, it’s obviously political and bullshit and insane. And it’s also about some serious medicine. Putting another step between getting it and getting pregnant is stupid (as is the $50 cost for anyone,) but of course there will eventually be a death related to this. Some thirteen-year-old will hemorrhage and bleed to death or some ectopic pregnancy will destroy some other teenager’s ability to have children, and this drug will be blamed. Yes, those things can happen with adults, too. But grown up women who die from things related to sex aren’t something our culture has decided it really needs to control to the same degree as teenage girls. Usually.

I guess the answer is for women (probably not a good idea for men, for loads of reasons) to befriend a lot of young women and girls. Maybe make some sort of sign/bumpersticker/button that says “If you need to come to me to get birth control, I’m in.” And go to the drugstore to buy it for her, just like getting kids beer. But if you see any liability issues in that, you’ve probably made the politicians’ point. Still, it sounds like the best idea I can come up with.

Comment #156: 3letterjon  on  12/11  at  12:33 PM

I’m middle-aged, and I discovered in the past couple years the extent to which my mother spyed and snooped on me while I was a teenager.  You know, because it was “her house” (and what was I?  Some dickhead roommate who never paid rent?) and she had “rights” to know what I was doing.  It’s important to note that she never asked me what I was doing, she never said “you’ve been with you boyfriend, do you need birth control?”  Or even, “you’ve been dating this guy for a while and I’m sure at some point you’ll think about having sex, I feel ______ about that.”  She just walked in my room, read my journal, pumped my aunt for everything I told her, and stayed completely silent. 

I wasn’t having the type of sex that I could get pregnant from (nor did I want to with that guy), but I believed all sorts of awful things about myself because I had no information about sex, bodies, or growing up.  Hell, I avoid reading my journals from then because it’s so uncomfortable to be reminded of how scared, anxious, and ignorant I was.  But now I know that she read all about my deepest fears and desires.  Rather than asking me about them.

I’ve known waaaayyyyy more people who prefer this type of parenting style than the type of bizarr-o parenting style based on “communication” and “talking to your kids” that people here are discussing.  It’s led me to believe what this Plan B ruling reinforces:  most parents hate their kids and want them to end up as miserable as they are.  Since having kids is the only way to end up as miserable as most parents are, it stands to reason that they want to keep EC as difficult to access as possible.

Comment #157: stubbles  on  12/11  at  03:24 PM

Some thirteen-year-old will hemorrhage and bleed to death or some ectopic pregnancy will destroy some other teenager’s ability to have children, and this drug will be blamed.

Awkward-pants.  You can’t hemorrhage and bleed to death from suppressing ovulation.  And ectopic pregnancy?  Wow. 

First of all, an ectopic pregnancy that isn’t terminated will kill you.  I suppose, yes, that will interfere with your fertility, if that’s what you’re concerned about. 

Second of all, if an ectopic pregnancy occurs, then it happened before or after EC was administered.

Third of all, ectopic pregnancies can’t be “caused”.  They just happen randomly.

Comment #158: stubbles  on  12/11  at  03:29 PM

stubbies,

There’s a big difference between a drug being blamed for something and a drug causing something. I wasn’t saying it could cause ectopic pregnancy, but EC doesn’t stop it either (and studies don’t seem to show any increased likelihood.) As for the bleeding, it can be like a rough period over a two-day span if my source (a woman who works with rape survivors and has seen the drugs given out quite a bit) is correct. I’m not personally aware if various brands work by suppressing ovulation only or by clearing out the uterine lining as well, but I’d imagine that doing both would be the more effective way of achieving the desired effect.

As for what kind of thing could cause a teenager to bleed to death, maybe repeating that my source deals with rape survivors could provide enough hints that such things can occur. As for what would be blamed, the rapist or a drug, ask which one likely has the most money.

Comment #159: 3letterjon  on  12/11  at  04:35 PM

It’s led me to believe what this Plan B ruling reinforces:  most parents hate their kids and want them to end up as miserable as they are.  Since having kids is the only way to end up as miserable as most parents are, it stands to reason that they want to keep EC as difficult to access as possible.

I think a more accurate way to say it is that most parents are compelled to make their kids’ lives as miserable as their own, but yeah.

 

Comment #160: Punditus Maximus  on  12/11  at  04:37 PM

I realize you’re snarking, but have you even considered the alternative?  Would you really prefer to force her to have an abortion?

Me? No, but I recognize that parents are the ones who make the medical care decisions for their children (even ones we disagree with) with very, very few exceptions. We can argue about where to draw the line, but it doesn’t sound out of line for a parent to make decisions about a child’s reproductive health AND for those decisions to be biased on the side of preventing pregnancy. Those decisions are either good ones or not, but arguing over what the child wants is besides the point. The parents want the child not to get pregnant, and sometimes that will lead to child care decisions that the child doesn’t want.

Comment #161: Tyro  on  12/11  at  05:22 PM

I’m not personally aware if various brands work by suppressing ovulation only or by clearing out the uterine lining as well, but I’d imagine that doing both would be the more effective way of achieving the desired effect.

Boy.  Some people are just determined not to learn anything, aren’t they?

Comment #162: stubbles  on  12/11  at  05:26 PM

Laughing my arse off at the assertion that students with high powered course loads didn’t have time for “dating and relationships”.  Perhaps not dating and relationships, Exholt, but I noticed at MIT and my friends at CalTech noticed that there seemed to be enough time available for a quick fuck between friends now and again.

Comment #163: Ms Kate  on  12/11  at  06:32 PM

Re Amanda Marcotte #6

I think a blanket policy of allowing teenagers to have sex with each other legally is just fine. In fact, that’s the law as it stands.

That is factually incorrect in Illinois.  There was a proposal in Illinois to have a Romeo and Juliet law which would allow someone who had no other convictions petition a court so they wouldn’t be a registered sex offender.  That proposal though would have kept the conviction in place.  Even so it failed.

An 18 year old who has sex with his 15 year old girlfriend in Illinois runs the risk of being a convicted felon and a registered for 10 years.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/illinois/article_4f499524-45db-11e0-a79a-00127992bc8b.html

Comment #164: Brian7  on  12/11  at  06:38 PM

Princeton has a handy website that tells how to use regular birth control pills for emergency contraception. http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/dose.html 

of course, you have to have them…

Comment #165: shade  on  12/11  at  07:07 PM

Me? No, but I recognize that parents are the ones who make the medical care decisions for their children (even ones we disagree with) with very, very few exceptions.

I’m afraid that is sort of incorrect.  In all states, minors over the age of 12 may consent to treatment of STDs, HIV testing, and treatment for substance abuse (although some states allow doctors to notify parents).  In many states “mature minors” may also consent to birth control and sexual health services.  And in many states, pregnancy, marriage, or military service is considered to medically emancipate a minor.

Comment #166: MsAnon  on  12/11  at  08:08 PM

Amanda, you mentioned how people who want to withhold PB should consider how teens have access to condoms and how that is a massive double standard. I agree this is a massive oversight, whether by accident or willful ignoring, and it’s bullshit.

But just to add to this I was flipping past Fox News, where they were showing Obama making a speech. The scrolling headline along the bottom of the screen read (and I’m quoting as best I can from memory), “Sebelius prevented a proposal from the FDA to make Plan B available over the counter. Under the proposal the morning-after pill would be sold on the shelves of drugstores just like condoms.” I was immediately struck by how they phrased it, specifically comparing it to condom use in order to evoke all those stories about women who allegedly use abortion as birth control. It seems putting Plan B and condoms together in a sentence would create a knee-jerk “outrage!” reaction in a large portion of the mainstream, even though from the numbers you’ve quoted in the past the majority of Americans are pro-choice and certainly pro-birth-control-access.

Comment #167: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/11  at  11:42 PM

You know, I have to say I disagree with Amanda, that a teenager’s sex life isn’t his/her parents’ business - assuming we’re dealing with reasonable parents here (eliminating not just abusive and negligent parents but also ones that fetishize innocence and wish to keep their kids kids forever). It may be awkward to discuss, but the negative consequences of sex - pregnancy (in the case of penis-vagina sex) and STIs - are big enough that I think that it’s in the kids’ best interests to have some sort of adult looking out for them there.

That being said, I think birth control, including Plan B, should be available to teens without parental notification/consent. Because what I’m talking about is an ideal world, but in the real world, we know many teens are not going to talk to their parents about sex. And even if they want to, they might find that their parents are unwilling to discuss it. And whether or not a sexually-active (heterosexual/bisexual) teen girl is on birth control should NOT be contingent upon whether or not she is able to discuss sex with her parents. EVERY girl who is having sex with boys SHOULD BE ON BIRTH CONTROL.

The social-conservative argument about this reminds me a lot of their stance on HPV vaccines. Only a sadist would revel in the idea of teen pregnancy and STIs being a “punishment” for not letting Mommy and Daddy know they’re having sex. They have an absurdly powerful and frankly, creepy impulse toward punishment. Either that or they really think that having a girl tell Mommy and Daddy she’s going to have sex because she needs birth control, and then having them tell her they don’t approve, is really going to stop the average teen girl from having sex behind her parents’ backs. So they’re either extremely draconian or extremely idealistic - I don’t trust either.

Comment #168: Erda  on  12/12  at  12:15 AM

And by the way, when I say the parents deserve to know, I’m not saying that anyone should be telling them other than their son/daughter themselves. If a teen is in a situation where the parents really really really REALLY should not know under ANY circumstances, they usually are in a better position to judge that than other authority figures in their lives. And not letting a good parent know something they probably should about their kid is definitely a lesser “evil” than telling an abusive parent something that they should not under any circumstances know, that they might use to harm their kid.

The reason I believe this is because of my personal experience: My biological father was (psychologically) abusive and a deadbeat toward me, and luckily, he was the non-custodial parent for most of my childhood; I didn’t even see him at all starting at about age 16. However, he was and still is my “legal father” (though I’m now working to get that changed and have my stepfather “adopt” me), and there were many times when clueless and/or condescending authority figures in high school would still give him information that he didn’t need to know, and when I tried to explain my situation, they’d say “But he still has LEGAL RIGHTS to you, even if he doesn’t see you! He’s still your FATHER!” Even when this was something like the password to the computer program that let parents monitor their kids’ grades. There really is no reason why someone who is not a regular part of my life would need to know that information, and I’m pretty sure there’s no court case establishing that parents have any “legal right” to that. (And I’m sure they weren’t looking at law, anyway, since they wouldn’t take it from him even after I turned 18, saying there was “no point” - they basically just thought that, as a kid, I just didn’t know better compared to the “adults in the room.”)

And yeah, I know that’s a pretty pithy comparison. I guess the point is if even that bothered me, I can’t imagine how incredibly traumatized I would have been if I had been sexually-active as a teen and he found out. I *know* he wouldn’t have reacted well, because he’s so patriarchal and controlling in this regard that he’d probably be bothered if he knew I was having sex now, at age 21!

Comment #169: Erda  on  12/12  at  12:29 AM

@Erda: do you know a lot of those parents?  I don’t.

Some people are just determined not to learn anything, aren’t they?

Yeah, well, conservatives.

 

Comment #170: Punditus Maximus  on  12/12  at  12:30 AM

Perhaps not dating and relationships, Exholt, but I noticed at MIT and my friends at CalTech noticed that there seemed to be enough time available for a quick fuck between friends now and again.

More opportunities available at universities like the ones you named compared with the high school I attended for the following reasons:

1. Most students live on campus so commutes are within walking distance….not 1-2+ hours on the subway, bus, and/or even ferry.

2. Students at such universities are legally adults for the most part and living away from home….so no nosy/overbearing parents to watch out for with its associated recriminations/embarrassments/awkwardness and many more private places and around campus.  Moreover, FERPA has a strongly deterring effect on college staff/officials notifying parents of anything pertaining to their college activities unless the students sign off to permit it. 

3. Academic workloads are often distributed in such a way that students are better able to adjust their study/leisure times.  No daily homework/problem set assignments, mandated daily readings, etc.  Also, they’re usually taking less courses in college than high school.  4-5 undergrad courses/semester is usually much more manageable than 6-8 courses at my high school.

Comment #171: exholt  on  12/12  at  01:45 AM

1. How I wish we were more like the Dutch!</br> </br>
2. I’m so tired of the onus for birth control being put on girls and women exclusivly. JHC.
3.Once again, the Dems have thrown women under the bus. And roll back and forth over us for good measure, ending with hitting the brakes and gas pedels at the same time* just in case we forgot ( as if we ever ever could) that we are Not Quite Human and omg the Other Party is so Much Worse!!!! 111Eleveny ONe!!! ( *Doing a BrakeStand. Fun to do actually!)

Comment #19: pitbullgirl65 on 12/09 at 04:07 PM

During those discussions I have repeatedly asked why it is preferable for teenagers - especially the 11 and 12 year olds they’re always bleating about - to be bearing children rather than using contraception.

Crickets every time.
Comment #40: carswell on 12/09 at 05:55 PM

#86: Since we only really think sex is wrong for girls, it’s clear that the answer is that women’s value is tied to their virginity. Which is sick.

Agreed, agreed, and emphatically agreed! Plan B is just fucking contraception, like the absolutly uncontroversial (except to a small number of highly vocal misogynist asswads) pill. It isn’t an “abortion” as the pro-liars continually claim. It does nothing except prevent ovulation. So why all the fucking hysteria? Isn’t it preferable that children avoid unwanted pregnancy? Pregnancy is not only very hard on a young girl’s body, teen pregnancy is the single best predictor of poverty and lack of educational and professional attainment. Isn’t it always better to avoid unnecessary suffering?

#52: Safron, that was my experience, as well. My first time, admittedly, sucked Rick Perry’s balls - I got drunk at a party at age 14 and woke up in bed with a guy who was 24 years old. Fucking pervert.

But subsequent sex I had with boys nearer to my age was actually fun and lovely and extremely pleasurable, for the most part. Same then as it is now. Overall, sex was then and is now a wondrous, beautiful part of my life and one that brings me great joy and happiness. I’m a much nicer person to be around when I’m getting it good on a consistent basis.

I am 41 years old and it’s depressing to me that attitudes regarding sexuality, especially female sexuality, have actually deteriorated from the time I was at my horniest and most promiscuous and having a wonderful time sowing my wild oats, my teens and twenties.

Skylanda’s first corollary of birth control in teenagers:

The younger the teenager asking for it, the more urgent the need to provide it without question or barrier.

And then provide the time to explore why later on.  After it has been provided.
Comment #57: skylanda on 12/09 at 09:08 PM

This is entirely too logical, Skylanda. Females must be punished for committing the crime of having sex or of being victims of sexual predators. That otherwise liberal men and women would actually claim that providing further barriers to girls’ access to life-saving medication that would help to ensure that they AVOID deleterious sequelae of coercive sex/rape is indicative of how far too many of us have swallowed wholesale the claptrap of the forced birth crowd. It’s mind-boggling. And it’s very depressing.

When are we, as a society, going to start publicly admitting that:

1.  We were not virgins when we got married - if we ever got married.
2.  We were sexually active as teenagers.
3.  It was a beautiful thing?

Now, I know that’s not everybody’s experience, but it sure as hell is not uncommon.  However, we virtually never talk about it in the public square.  Instead it’s all faux shock and outrage.
Comment #83: DaveL on 12/10 at 10:55 AM

Silly, Dave. Don’t you know that the sadistic, panty-sniffing old guy in the sky will throw a hissy fit and rain fire down upon us should we do so? And the baby jeebus will cry and we certainly don’t want that, do we? Remember, consensual, pleasurable sex is an abomination, but pedophile rings (ala the Catholic Church and the FLDS) are gawd’s will. As are wars, colonialism, and any and all such human actions that rain down the most unnecessary misery upon humans and the other inhabitants of this planet.

Comment #172: BJ Survivor  on  12/12  at  02:46 AM

The availability to 10 and 11 year olds and up will likely change all kinds of middle and high school group behaviors over time.  This is why an epidemiologist should have a report somewhere that we have not seen.  The good needs to be weighed against the harm caused by increased levels of teen sex overall, the increased levels of unprotected sex (resulting in increases in pregnancies, abortions and STDs), and yes the number of kids who will cover for an abuser (and abusers who force them to) by using Plan B, allowing them to remain uncaught and abuse other children.  Underage women will have less of a reason to say no or insist on a condom when everyone knows they can just go the drugstore the next day and someone coercing them hands them the $50.
Comment #81: daveinmpls on 12/10 at 10:11 AM

This is utter fucking bullshit. Predators aren’t going to give a fuck whether or not their victims have access to emergency contraception. In other words, their victims’ lack of access to emergency contraception is not going to deter them from victimizing their victims. Really, just how dumb can you be to put forth this inane “argument?” Just admit that the idea of girls having sex and then being able to avoid the “punishment” of pregnancy turns you on and you’ll do anything to ensure that those young slutty sluts get their just desserts?

Comment #173: BJ Survivor  on  12/12  at  02:52 AM

I’m of two or more minds about the decision. Yes, it’s obviously political and bullshit and insane. And it’s also about some serious medicine. Putting another step between getting it and getting pregnant is stupid (as is the $50 cost for anyone,) but of course there will eventually be a death related to this. Some thirteen-year-old will hemorrhage and bleed to death or some ectopic pregnancy will destroy some other teenager’s ability to have children, and this drug will be blamed. Yes, those things can happen with adults, too. But grown up women who die from things related to sex aren’t something our culture has decided it really needs to control to the same degree as teenage girls. Usually.

Please, stop with the meme that the morning after pill is abortifacient. It is merely a high dose of the same hormones that are in the pill. It is emergency CONTRACEPTION. IT IS NOT ABORTION. It works, just like the pill, to prevent OVULATION. If a girl/woman is already pregnant, nothing will happen, except maybe some nausea and spotting. It will have no effect on an established pregnancy.

Comment #174: BJ Survivor  on  12/12  at  03:02 AM

stubbies:

(From Planned Parenthood’s website:)

“All brands of the morning-after pill work by keeping a woman’s ovaries from releasing eggs — ovulation. Pregnancy cannot happen if there is no egg to join with sperm. The hormone in the morning-after pill also prevents pregnancy by thickening a woman’s cervical mucus. The mucus blocks sperm and keeps it from joining with an egg.

“The morning-after pill can also thin the lining of the uterus. In theory, this could prevent pregnancy by keeping a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus.”

Does that lining of the uterus just dissipate into nothingness? Or does it follow its usual destiny and get removed through the available means? Maybe I’m just some crazy rube from out in the sticks and never leave the farm because my brother’s afraid the revenuers and truant officers are going to get me. Or maybe I have a logical assertion based on things I’ve heard from someone who has been there.

Comment #175: 3letterjon  on  12/12  at  10:03 AM

exholt always reminds me of this from Caesar and Cleopatra by George Bernard Shaw:

BRITANNUS (shocked).
Caesar: this is not proper.

THEODOTUS (outraged).
How!

CAESAR (recovering his self-possession).
Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.

Comment #176: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/12  at  10:38 AM

Erda - I butt out of my teen son’s sexual decisions because I want them to make good ones without concern for my reactions.  I provide them with information and access to protection, both of which imply that the decisions they make have consequences and are important, and both of which facilitate good decision making.

That’s called realistic parenting.

I was a teen once.  My husband taught teens and he was the first to find out, before parents, that one of his freshman students was engaging in risky sexual behavior and may have been pregnant (she told him later that she had an STD).  She never told her parents because they thought that keeping her ignorant would keep her innocent and she didn’t know exactly how they would react.

See?

Comment #177: Ms Kate  on  12/12  at  11:23 AM

exholt always reminds me of this from Caesar and Cleopatra by George Bernard Shaw:

I have a lot of sympathy for exholt’s POV in a lot of circumstances, but one of the great lessons I gained from college was the realization that most of the rest of society functions differently than my family and community do. And that’s a good thing, I think—I think my family’s way is better. But it does no good to be frustrated that the rest of society disagrees. It’s more useful to understand the world as it is and why people do what they do and work from there.

That and once you hit about 30 or so, you should stop looking at the Every.Single.Thing through the prism of your experiences in high school and college.

Comment #178: Tyro  on  12/12  at  11:54 AM

That and once you hit about 30 or so, you should stop looking at the Every.Single.Thing through the prism of your experiences in high school and college

It implies that you’ve quit learning from your experiences post-college when you do so.

Comment #179: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/12  at  01:10 PM

This study actually showed better compliance with EC directions by those 16 and under than those 17 and above.

Same study says that 45 percent of requests for EC were following a broken condom.  So a lot of women were proactive and responsible, were exposed to risk because no birth control is 100 percent perfect, and were then even more proactive and responsible by seeking out this backup method.  And, in this study, they weren’t offered it, they had to ask for it themselves.

Comment #180: oldfeminist  on  12/12  at  03:14 PM

Tyro & Dark Avenger,

I was bringing up what I’ve observed in my high school and college years because they are a microcosm of the very mentality common among the Upper East sider set and similarly situated upper/upper-middle class suburban parents that are often pandered to by policies such as Sebelius’ decision.  While these parents….especially the latter group are a minority in relation to the entire US, their political clout is such that the politicians from both parties find pandering to them to be in their best political interests….however irrational the underlying roots of their desire to control/micromanage their adolescent/young adult children. 

There’s a reason why practically all of the helicopter parents/kids I’ve met or that I heard endless rants about from friends teaching/TAing at universities tend to be from that socio-economic milieu.

Comment #181: exholt  on  12/12  at  04:49 PM

I was bringing up what I’ve observed in my high school and college years because they are a microcosm of the very mentality common among the Upper East sider set and similarly situated upper/upper-middle class suburban parents that are often pandered to by policies such as Sebelius’ decision.

exholt, any sociologist would tell you your extrapolation from your experience and the anecdotes of your friends is naive at best and preposterous at worse.

It’s just like you talk about how butt-hurt you were at the snobbery of classical music fans you knew, so you avoided classical music until you met people in college who were classical music fans who weren’t assholes. 

At least you don’t paint yourself blue, like Britannus…..........................

Comment #182: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/12  at  05:12 PM

But most sexually active teenagers are actually pretty boring. Most of them are in age-appropriate, consensual relationships, often with some kind of commitment. I fail to see any value in invading their sexual privacy.

I would come at this slightly differently. I actually think a lot of teenage sex sucks, especially in lower income communities. There’s plenty of exploitation, plenty of unprotected sex, plenty of coercion, and plenty of unprotected encounters. Just because it didn’t happen so much at Amanda’s suburban high school (or at mine) doesn’t mean it didn’t happen elsewhere.

But where Amanda’s absolutely right is that parental involvement doesn’t make any of this any better, at least unless the parents are exceptionally enlightened about teenage sexuality. It just creates conflicts and gets in the way of teenagers being able to plan out their sex lives, make better decisions, and use protection.

Comment #183: Dilan Esper  on  12/12  at  05:24 PM

Although the comment about helicopter parents, as they are, does hold some water.  We are currently at the end of a rather crazy trend in parenting where adults have never felt so very important in their children’s lives, and will be pandered to by a decision which reinforces their sense of Very Much Importance in Everything in their Child’s Life. 

After all, these are people who didn’t let their kids walk to school, play outside the yard, visit a friend without a car involved, let kids out of their sight until they were teens, if then, and tried to pass laws criminalizing leaving anyone under the age of 15 at home for any length of time.

 

Comment #184: Ms Kate  on  12/12  at  05:32 PM

Does that lining of the uterus just dissipate into nothingness? Or does it follow its usual destiny and get removed through the available means? Maybe I’m just some crazy rube from out in the sticks and never leave the farm because my brother’s afraid the revenuers and truant officers are going to get me. Or maybe I have a logical assertion based on things I’ve heard from someone who has been there.

It’s always amazing to me how ignorant men are of the female reproductive cycle. Granted, it is far more complex than that of the male, but I would think that there would be a lot of men who would be interested in knowing how they came to be, how their mothers/sisters/partners work. My husband is definitely a rare one.

In women of childbearing age, the uterine lining builds up in preparation for pregnancy and then sloughs off during menstruation. Women on hormonal BC tend to have thinner uterine linings and very light breakthrough bleeding during the sugar pill week of their BC. Many women experience breakthrough bleeding or spotting, which is never hemorrhage, during the first 3 to 4 cycles of a new pill formulation. Again, EC will not cause women/girls to hemorrhage. It will cause breast tenderness, nausea, bloating, and spotting or breakthrough bleeding. It will have absolutely no effect on an already established pregnancy. There is only speculation, which scientists have to include, that it may thin the uterine lining and cause implantation failure, but this has never been proven. The only thing that has been proven is that it works by preventing ovulation, which is why it is so important to take it as quickly as possible. Adolescent girls do not need further barriers to obtaining this medication, which is safer than fucking aspirin, Motrin, or Tylenol.

Comment #185: BJ Survivor  on  12/12  at  10:11 PM

Certainly safer than tylenol!

Comment #186: Ms Kate  on  12/12  at  11:34 PM

Furthermore, 3letterjohn, hormonal contraceptives are also prescribed to women and girls who have extremely heavy menstrual bleeding. This is a very common indication and most people know this. So the assertion that EC might cause hemorrhage is utterly fucking stupid if you had taken any time at all to really think before you typed.

Comment #187: BJ Survivor  on  12/13  at  01:22 AM

You’d be better off having a barber-surgeon bleed you instead of taking tylenol for whatever ails you:

Taking slightly too much paracetamol(tylenol-ed) day after day can be fatal, experts have warned.

A dangerous dose might just be a few pills too many taken regularly over days, weeks or months, they said.

Researchers at Edinburgh University saw 161 cases of “staggered overdose” at its hospital over a 16-year period.

People taking tablets for chronic pain might not realise they were taking too many or recognise symptoms of overdose and liver injury, they said.

The researchers told the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology that this life-threatening condition could be easily missed by doctors and patients

Comment #188: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/13  at  01:46 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.