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Next entry: The Wingnut Gift Guide For The Word Is Christmas, Dammit Previous entry: The red herring of bad parenting

Do people need nutrition? Wingnuts are skeptical.

ChoadsConservativesEconomyFood

I have seen some serious stupid in my time while dealing with wingnuts online.  Just this morning, I had to gently correct a wingnut who assumed that not wanting children or marriage personally means that I hate parents or married people.  (My mother would be so surprised!) I also saw a really cute example of stupid plus overstretching with one of my favorite wingnut tics, which is using the word “nihilism” without having the ability to open up a dictionary to discover its definition. (Alas, there was no discussion of “Kantian nihilism”, which really puts this pseudo-intellectual bamboozling on the next level.)  But by far, the dumbest wingnut assumption I’ve seen all week is Matthew Boyle at the Daily Caller, who appears to believe that poor people only eat one dinner a month.

Boyle decided to do an “investigation” into what he believes is a scandalous fact about food stamps, which is you can buy food with them.  Boyle’s investigative technique appears to have been to defraud the government by lying about his rent to get food stamps—-he claimed to pay $1,375 in rent, when in fact his parents pay for it—-and he got what he believes is a ridiculous $105 a month for food for a single man.

To prove how ridiculously high this is, he went to Whole Foods and spent $51.10 on a single meal.

To be fair, Boyle did buy more food than a single meal’s worth.  He also bought—-after letting his money roll over into December—-$100 worth of candy.  We are meant to believe that people on assistance are sucking down gourmet meals and sugar on our dime, and then probably getting taxpayer-funded orgasms.  And you, incredulous reader, aren’t getting any partner orgasms, even though you work so hard by explaining carefully to women you meet on online dating sites that most women are crap.  The unfairness of it!

Of course, most of us with working brains immediately see the flaw in this argument, because we actually buy food for our houses, and whether we have assistance or not, we usually budget for it. Therefore, when we got to the store, we don’t spend our entire food budget on a single meal and a bunch of candy, because then we will have nothing left for the rest of the month.  Let’s assume the average month has 30 days in it, and most people eat 2-3 meals a day.  We could, like Boyle, make entirely different assumptions, of course, but I prefer to have my assumptions align with reality.  That means that if you blow your entire food budget on one meal, you have no money for an average of 74 meals a month.  (By the way, according to my math, that comes down to an average of $1.33 a meal, if you skip half of your breakfasts, which I’m assuming many people do.  However, children often don’t, so things get tighter if you factor that in.) 

After looking at these inconvenient facts that should be obvious and should put a kink in Boyle’s outrage generating, I came to the only conclusion possible: Boyle thinks the poor don’t eat more than once a month.  And even then, they do it just for pleasure, because they have no nutritional needs.

Which makes me wonder if Boyle is a creationist or otherwise subscribes to views that are hostile to basic, proven biology.  He’d almost have to be, because it would be sort of weird to be like, “Well, yeah, evolution is true, but I believe that people who make below a certain income don’t need nutrients to survive.”  I’m reminded of Rush Limbaugh’s rants against food stamps that are based around the fact that some people living in poverty are fat.  Again, a calculator plus a 7th grader’s grasp of basic biology would dispel the notion that depriving someone of all food altogether would be an effective response to obesity, but perhaps Limbaugh is also in denial about the nutritional needs of human bodies. 

Hey, I know it sounds weird to accuse conservatives of perpetuating nutrient denialism, i.e. the belief that people don’t need food to survive.  But there’s all sorts of subterranean wingnut beliefs that are passed around in email forwards, fundamentalist churches, and other social occasions that only come to the light of day when there’s a political conflict that brings them to the surface.  So why not?  They believe all sorts of other crazy shit, so why not add “people, at least poor people, don’t need to eat” on to the pile?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:21 PM • (123) Comments

Boyle is assuming that WIC-type programs exist so that people can get fancy luxury stuff. I mean, c’mon, everybody knows food comes from parents. Right?

Comment #1: Salient  on  12/09  at  12:33 PM

So . . . where do we report this guy for defrauding the government?

Comment #2: Punditus Maximus  on  12/09  at  12:44 PM

Just when you thought James O’Keefe was as stupid as humanly possible without drowning when left outside in the rain, the wing-nuts produce another one.

Comment #3: cynickal  on  12/09  at  12:44 PM

How do these people get paid for writing this bullshit? And how much? Because, I can be a pretty big asshole if I need to be and I’m also pretty good at stupid arguments, so if anyone who hires fucking assholes like Matthew Boyle is reading this, I could use the extra money. Thanks.

Comment #4: Mark  on  12/09  at  12:46 PM

If you’re up for it, Punditus.  I won’t say it wouldn’t be amusing, but I also have to point out that the penalties seem to be mostly that you’re cut off.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  12:50 PM

No, food arrives magically in styrofoam and plastic, or plastic bags with smiling produce on it. Farms are something which appear in Norman Rockwell, and Currier & Ives prints. grin

Another right-wing douchebag who desperately needs to be close to someone with desperate needs. Talk about an inexhaustable resource!

Comment #6: ThresherK  on  12/09  at  12:52 PM

I eat on about $100/mo, thanks to my comic-drawing gig for a student newspaper (everything else is going to rent and debt). I do manage to go out to eat occasionally, mostly thanks to Costco - 10lbs of Quaker oatmeal for about $10 (don’t remember exactly because I bought my current box back in August) lasts at least five months even if you eat it every morning. A $6 rotisserie chicken feeds me for a week. And sometimes I get to go splurge on a $6 sub sandwich or even a real $10 sit-down meal. If money’s tight, though, breakfast and lunch might be a few cups of green tea (also Costco, also hella cheap).

I’m lucky enough to have parents who will occasionally come visit and take me out for those $10 sit-down meals on their dime, which is AWESOME, but there’s no way I could do that regularly and stay in budget.

Comment #7: Hobbes  on  12/09  at  12:53 PM

“I’m reminded of Rush Limbaugh’s rants against food stamps that are based around the fact that some people living in poverty are fat.  Again, a calculator plus a 7th grader’s grasp of basic biology would dispel the notion that depriving someone of all food altogether would be an effective response to obesity, but perhaps Limbaugh is also in denial about the nutritional needs of human bodies.”

...no, no, no!  Rush has an intuitive understanding that there is a nutritional equivalent of the “Laffer Curve”, which states that as you cut the intake of food calories you increase the number of calories actually consumed!  Don’t you see?  It all makes perfect sense!

***

”...but perhaps Limbaugh is also in denial about the nutritional needs of human bodies.”

Rush Limbaugh is in deep denial that a reality exists outside the confines of his drug-addled and Ayn-Rand-poisoned mind, let alone outside his Palm Beach digs.  The fact the rest of us live there, and die there, is of no consequence to the Intellectual Leader and Veritable Embodiment of the Republican Party (a title he is wrestling Glenn Beck for at the moment). 

What is it the Republicans used to say about Tip O’Neill? (former Democratic Speaker of the House, comparing him to the Federal Government):  “He’s big, fat and out of control!”  Sounds like a perfect description of Limbaugh, the Republican Party, and the Federal Government they created under Reagan, Bush & Bush.  A 30-year old example of Republican projection?...

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  12/09  at  12:57 PM

The GOP has mainstreamed psychopathy. They pay the sociopaths the most and give them the most publicity and air time, so they’re starting to push society not just toward the right but toward the actively, dangerously crazy. Boyle is the next big GOP star, because he’s a psycho.

I’m amazed there’s not a campaign to pardon Eric Rudolph so they can run him for Congress.

Comment #9: Scott  on  12/09  at  01:02 PM

Good post, except it could be construed as opposing taxpayer-funded orgasms.  Which is crazy.

Comment #10: Ape Man  on  12/09  at  01:07 PM

“Good post, except it could be construed as opposing taxpayer-funded orgasms.  Which is crazy.”

“Crazy”?  Maybe not so much.  After all, orgasms are pleasurable, pleasure is to be reserved as a reward for proper behavior and success, therefore only the wealthy, white, Christianist male is to be allowed orgasms.  Simple.

Of course, as with many things, Orwell was there first: “The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now.” - 1984, Part 3, Chapter 3

In the ideal Republican/Conservative world, those at the top will live like Caligula, those at the bottom like galley-slaves, and there will be no middle.  Fun times…

Comment #11: MikeEss  on  12/09  at  01:23 PM

Don’t give them any ideas, Scott.  Not that he’d need a pardon.  It took 3 months to kick Traficant (may the fleas of a thousand camels nest in his underpants, what a stain on the Democratic party that jerk was) out of the House after he was convicted, and he just ran again this year, after getting out of prison on his 7 year sentence for bribery and other offenses.

Comment #12: libdevil  on  12/09  at  01:24 PM

Eric Rudolph, Republican for Congress:
“I’m Pro-Life, and I’ll kill anyone who disagrees!”

...

Comment #13: MikeEss  on  12/09  at  01:33 PM

Has he read “Fast Food Nation”? When you’re living off the dollar menu at McDonald’s it’s amazing how pudgy you can get.

I liked the link to Feministe: Jill is clearly longing for the completeness that only motherhood can bring to a woman. We real men classify her rant under the heading “Methinks the lady doth protest too much.” She will find what she seeks from life only by submitting completely to a man.

Comment #14: Hector B.  on  12/09  at  01:45 PM

Nice one, MikeEss.

Comment #15: bomberE  on  12/09  at  01:59 PM

It seems that the “small government” types want to increase the government’s role by making food stamps work only for approved foods.  This would have very little effect on the purchases of people using food stamps, except for the ones that have few approved foods available in their area.  They also want to spend more money on preventing fraud, although that’s not cost-effective after a pretty low point and it wastes money that doesn’t even go to purchasing food.

This really all comes back to the point that the conservative worldview is that punishing bad people is more important than anything else, even it means punishing good people or even themselves along with it.  To them, it’s better to punish 1 bad person than to help 100 good people.  This is only one of many, many examples I have of this type of thinking.

Comment #16: bananacat  on  12/09  at  02:04 PM

In my state, they recently increased food stamp allotments across the board, for the express purpose of allowing recipients to eat better, healthier food.  I am able to cook and have access to numerous places to buy a wide selection of reasonably-priced food, but the the food stamp budgets here are really designed for people who can’t (cook) and don’t (have access), so I eat ridiculously well and always have money left over. I feel kind of bad about it, like if I’m on food stamps I probably should be subsisting on rice and beans, but they’ve checked a couple of times, and they are giving me the right amount.

Which is to say that I have done both of the things Boyle describes—buying a bunch of fancy stuff at, in my case, Trader Joe’s, and buying candy in quantity.  The candy was for Halloween and for Christmas stockings, and on the TJ’s trip I did make an effort to buy treats that had a lot of servings and would last a while, but I’m quite glad the cashiers didn’t bat an eye. The kind of spending Boyle did could be the result of being an idiot trying to make a point, like Boyle, or of using the food stamps carefully to have some extra to spend on a special occasion.

Comment #17: A.  on  12/09  at  02:15 PM

They just want to get rid of food stamps altogether.  Are there no soup kitchens?

The conservative worldview is Social Darwinism.  Not that they’d call it that, of course.

Comment #18: liberalrob  on  12/09  at  02:16 PM

To answer the question in the title of this post though, of course wingnuts believe people need nutrition.  WIC recipients, however, do not count as people.  So their needs are more mysterious.

Comment #19: libdevil  on  12/09  at  02:17 PM

I… I ... I ... what?

THIS MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. First, if someone is buying $8 worth of creamy organic goat milk with their EBT, how is this supposed to make me sad? They just got some delicious organic food that they presumably, if they aren’t actively scamming the government like this jackass, couldn’t have afforded while supporting an organic goat farmer. I think I just had a liberalgasm.

Comment #20: purpleshoes  on  12/09  at  02:22 PM

Sure.  Poor people are like air ferns.

Comment #21: blondie  on  12/09  at  02:24 PM

Also, WIC is one of the strictest food aid programs we have. Kids with free school lunches have more food choices than WIC recipients; WIC does not equal EBT. Among other things, to get WIC your kids have to submit to near-monthly blood draws to check them for anemia and meetings with nutritionists. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to distract an eighteen-month-old through a twenty-minute nutrition consult when he knows that he’s back at the place where people stick him with needles, but oh my god, I have. The parents that kept their toddlers from completely melting down every time they went to get WIC were superheroes in my eyes.

Comment #22: purpleshoes  on  12/09  at  02:25 PM

The conservative worldview is Social Darwinism.  Not that they’d call it that, of course.

But even in this case, they are shooting themselves in the foot.  A large poor population doesn’t work well for business owners, especially small ones.  And if no one can afford to buy whatever junk they’re selling, then they’ll end up in that class of dying peasants pretty fast.  But they don’t care about that so long as the lazy people get the punishment they deserve.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  12/09  at  02:40 PM

:(

So apparently college is not a place where one goes to improve one’s skills, but rather a playground for well-off young adults. Poor people shouldn’t go to college; they should just disappear from embarrassment at their own existence, or something.

Comment #24: nothingmuch  on  12/09  at  02:42 PM

GOPerism is Social Darwinism for Creationists, with a concomitant increased distance from actual science (which “Social Darwinism” never was to begin with).

Comment #25: Dr. Psycho  on  12/09  at  02:44 PM

Of course poor people don’t need to eat. They’ve been saying that for years. They hide behind the lie that we’re taking responsibility away from parents to try and end school breakfast/lunch programs and take food stamps away altogether. Poverty is a criminal offense in America and it doesn’t matter if you’re only five years old, you must suffer and die for the sin of being poor. This time of year, I’d like to invite everyone to remember that what the wingnuts really want is for the poor to die expeditiously so they can “decrease the surplus population.”

Comment #26: serious bette  on  12/09  at  02:47 PM

Boyle also doesn’t realize how many privileges he had even in this scenario. He figured out how to get his benefits online: home internet access is something many people can’t afford. He drove his own car to the various offices: many would have spent additional hours on the bus. He waited for hours during the day: many people have to work during that time. Or would be having to keep their kids quiet. He completed forms: many people have low literacy levels and/or don’t speak English as a first language.

What an asshole! He complains about how inconvenient it was without having the slightest notion that these are serious barriers for people who really need the help and don’t have the time, money, and energy to do it just for a lark. Also, does he not realize that a lot of students have to put themselves through school without help from Mommy and Daddy and thus could genuinely use the help? And that this is a good thing for our country? If we give people a little help to get through school, we permanently reduce the likelihood that they will need such help in the future.

Grrrrrr!

Comment #27: Nimue  on  12/09  at  02:49 PM

I remember eating alot of rice, beans, and peanut butter when I had food stamps.

...And then they disallowed it for adult children living in their parents’ house (even though I’d been kicked out and was on the outs for the food supply there) and now they even count unrelated adults in your household.  So if you have roommates, technically you’re not supposed to receive them for your household unless everyone meets the income requirements.

Aside from that, blood draws and rent being part of the calculation, etc, are all variations state by state.

Comment #28: Crissa  on  12/09  at  02:52 PM

I think #19 is on the right track.  In the minds of these types of conservatives, people who get aid from the government _don’t deserve it_.  By definition.  In their minds, things like food stamps and welfare are money taken from “hard working Americans” like themselves and given to lazy, shiftless, ungrateful people who don’t deserve it.  Decades of Limbaugh and other ranting gasbags have cemented this idea in their heads, and it would take quite a bit of time and effort to reverse that.

If these same people ever hit hard times and have to use welfare or food stamps for their own survival, they see themselves as exceptions, the rare good person using an inherently evil program for a limited time because they need it (probably like all the pro-lifers who, when they are faced with unwanted pregnancies, get abortions anyway and rationalize it away somehow).

Comment #29: Jake  on  12/09  at  02:54 PM

I swear, when I could have really used these services (nearly 25 years ago), i was living in a red state and working a job that didn’t allow me to take off hours (as my mother had somehow managed to do the one 8 mo period we were on food stamps & had subsidized housing) during the day.  We managed subsidized housing for 6 months because the apartment office had the forms & was open Saturdays, then I went off probation at work and we lost the subsidy (but not the apartment) even though still below the poverty line.  It takes a shitton of work to get that “free” government support, locking out many people who should be able to get it while this douche games the system.  I have nothing but contempt for his sort.

Comment #30: helen w. h.  on  12/09  at  03:03 PM

Rush Limbaugh is in deep denial that a reality exists outside the confines of his drug-addled and Ayn-Rand-poisoned mind, let alone outside his Palm Beach digs.  The fact the rest of us live there, and die there, is of no consequence to the Intellectual Leader and Veritable Embodiment of the Republican Party (a title he is wrestling Glenn Beck for at the moment).

Not to pound on the obvious, but Rush Limbaugh is not in denial of anything. He’s just a pure-D bullshitter. If you don’t mean *anything* you say, if it just doesn’t mean anything at all to you, you’re perfectly capable of saying X today and Y tomorrow and sound sincere each time.

Comment #31: LongHairedWeirdo  on  12/09  at  03:13 PM

Yeah, this was pretty much the stupidest thing I’d read in a long time. I mean…I’m used to Republicans thinking poor people are scummy pieces of crap who don’t deserve a damn thing and that they should be eating their bootstraps instead of getting food stamps…but this was just so fucking clearly dumb, I was actually a little surprised.

The big INVESTIGATION was that you can…buy food…with food stamps? OMFG WHAT?? Yeah, you can walk into a store and choose what to buy, with the few exceptions of booze, tobacco, hot prepared food, and a couple other things I think. So if I have $20 in my pocket, I can choose to buy some imported cheese and a bottle of flavored olive oil, or I can buy a few cans of beans and bags of frozen veggies and a couple boxes of generic cereal. Someone with $20 in food stamps can make the same choices. What’s the big amazing insight here?

And weren’t there a bunch of wingnuts flipping out about NANNY STATE and shit when NY was talking about making soda one of the things you couldn’t buy with food stamps? (I know some on the left were also upset about that, but for less stupid reasons.) So now this asshole thinks the government should get to prescribe a list of Ten Cheap Shitty Foods You Are Allowed To Buy With Food Stamps?

And yeah, I was really having to force myself to see this wasn’t meant as parody because of the whole “spending all of the damn money at once” thing. Sure, you can blow all of your food stamps in one or two trips to WF on a couple meals and some chocolate…and have fun eating twigs and leaves from the ground for the rest of the month.

God these people. I fucking hate the right.

Comment #32: Alison  on  12/09  at  03:14 PM

How do these people get paid for writing this bullshit? And how much? Because, I can be a pretty big asshole if I need to be and I’m also pretty good at stupid arguments, so if anyone who hires fucking assholes like Matthew Boyle is reading this, I could use the extra money. Thanks.

Screw you, Mark - if anyone is going to ride those qualities to the sweet, sweet fields of wingnut welfare, it’s going to be me.  I’ve worked long and hard on being an asshole, dammit, and I deserve a reward.

Comment #33: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/09  at  03:16 PM

They just want to get rid of food stamps altogether.  Are there no soup kitchens?

It’s perfectly simple - if you take away food stamps, there’s a place for Soylent Green.  And it’s possible to profit from that.

Comment #34: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/09  at  03:21 PM

purple @20: you just won the internets. We can all go home for the day.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/09  at  03:49 PM

I only get $9 for foodstamps per month, how the fuck does he get $105?

Comment #36: R.T.  on  12/09  at  03:51 PM

“It’s perfectly simple - if you take away food stamps, there’s a place for Soylent Green.  And it’s possible to profit from that.”

Why not just cut out the whole process in the middle and just start encouraging cannibalism as a civic virtue?  If you’re hungry, eat your fellow humans. 

One child too many?  Problem solved! 

Neighbors play their music too loud?  Have them over for dinner!

Monthly paycheck spent a week short of the next one?  Hunt the Ultimate Game!

After all, it’s a dog-eat-dog world.  And if it’s good enough for dogs then it’s good enough for us.  The weak are sacrificed to the strong every day.  Why not make a little more direct?...

Comment #37: MikeEss  on  12/09  at  03:55 PM

If people have a safety net to keep them from starving, then it’s a lot harder to make them do *anything you want* just to live.  And that would destroy corporate freedom.

Comment #38: oldfeminist  on  12/09  at  03:58 PM

Screw you, Mark - if anyone is going to ride those qualities to the sweet, sweet fields of wingnut welfare, it’s going to be me.  I’ve worked long and hard on being an asshole, dammit, and I deserve a reward.

Comment #33: Phoenician in a time of Romans

Pfft!  Like we’re going to offshore our wing-nut welfare.
Quit trying to take Real Merikan’s jobs!
Dur takin urr jerbs!

Comment #39: cynickal  on  12/09  at  04:14 PM

@ #2 PM:

“So . . . where do we report this guy for defrauding the government? “

Done. Sent in a report to the SNAP program. Ain’t I a stinker?’
:^)

Comment #40: vitaminC  on  12/09  at  04:17 PM

If people have a safety net to keep them from starving, then it’s a lot harder to make them do *anything you want* just to live.

See The Hunger Games Trilogy.

Comment #41: idiosynchronic  on  12/09  at  04:22 PM

I…I…don’t understand what this “investigation” is trying to prove? So this douche used the powers of his mighty male brain to discover that you can buy food with food stamps? And he wants what, a standing ovation for his investigative prowess and high level of moral outrage?

And what are these people outraged about, anyway? I’ve been seeing a lot of trend stories about “hipsters” and college kids spending their food stamps on organics, and I fail to appreciate the reasons for the pearl-clutching. The whole point of food stamps is to assist people who need help in buying nutritious and healthy food. So, clearly, programmatic success! And as someone who grew up on food stamps, I can promise him that poor people, unlike his dimwitted kind, are capable of budgeting and would not blow their whole monthly subsidy on candy at Whole Foods.  Fuck, I hate righties.

Comment #42: elena  on  12/09  at  04:30 PM

I…I…don’t understand what this “investigation” is trying to prove?

Essentially, that the government isn’t spending enough money hiring Food Police to stand at supermarket checkouts ensuring that the only thing the dirty dirty poor can buy as food is month-old library paste.  That the poor are allowed to use their food stamps to <b>choose<./b> food, this is an outrage to all good Americans who rightfully resent these parasites, and demand that they should suffer for the sin of getting hungry.

In short, he’s a dick.

Comment #43: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/09  at  04:44 PM

Y’all are completely missing the point of the Whole Foods trip, folks.  See, poor people should be forbidden from eating decent food; they should only be allowed to eat the cheapest junk available.

Remember the brouhaha they raised when Michelle Obama went to a soup kitchen and there was a guy with a cell phone there?  Another thing they raised a stink up about back then was that the soup kitchen was serving risotto.  Which is terrible according to them because (a) the homeless don’t deserve good food, and (b) risotto is an unamerican liberal conspiracy eaten by sissy librul men and their ugly women or something.

And note that the author also brings up that a lot of the food stamp applicants having cell phones.

Comment #44: sacundim  on  12/09  at  04:55 PM

As someone who grew up in extreme poverty (homeless for a while, not enough food quite often), this guy really pissed me off. I’m in full flying monkey mode now. I also sent an email to some faculty in his MA program outlining the welfare fraud their student has engaged in for a “story”.

Comment #45: vitaminC  on  12/09  at  04:59 PM

And note that the author also brings up that a lot of the food stamp applicants having cell phones.

Republicans whine and Republicans bitch
“Our rich are too poor and our poor are too rich.”

And weren’t there a bunch of wingnuts flipping out about NANNY STATE and shit when NY was talking about making soda one of the things you couldn’t buy with food stamps? (I know some on the left were also upset about that, but for less stupid reasons.)

Nah, I don’t recall righties ever complaining about policing the food habits of POOR people - who shouldn’t be eating at all, dangnabbit!  The outcry was over soda being taxed.

Comment #46: NicoleG  on  12/09  at  05:38 PM

Boyle implied that it was “common” for people on food stamps to spend $100 just on candy, and therefore the food stamp program is flawed since people just spend it on crap.

In reality, it shows that the food stamp program is flawed since people who don’t need it (like Boyle) can .get it. Of course, this was only because Boyle lied on his application about his income, thus he “qualified.”

The solution?

Increase the penalties for people who lie and abuse the system. If that means some jail time for Boyle, well, that’s a shame.

Comment #47: Celda  on  12/09  at  05:53 PM

The best (worst) part was when he bought a bunch of pretty normal food-stuffs and then was all like, “This is Coke - for making Jack and Coke!” as though that’s what people do when they buy Coke at the supermarket.

What an asshole.

Comment #48: Jerry Vinokurov  on  12/09  at  05:56 PM

Of all the stupid right wingers that I’ve read about here, this has got to be the single stupidest. I mean, WOW. Just, wow.

Comment #49: HonestB  on  12/09  at  06:00 PM

Increase the penalties for people who lie and abuse the system. If that means some jail time for Boyle, well, that’s a shame.

That’s what Boyle is hoping for. Basically you’re arguing that the “food stamp” system isn’t restricted enough, which is what he’s arguing. Any attempt to make it more punitive will affect people who need “food stamps” and not him. He’s like the guy who farts at the party, then leaves, his stench gagging everyone who’s left.

Comment #50: Hector B.  on  12/09  at  06:02 PM

Why is anybody listening to a guy whose parents pay his rent?

Get a paper route, ya lazy bum!

Comment #51: MHF  on  12/09  at  06:03 PM

Anyone else get the vibe that he’s exceedingly privileged and oblivious even for a college student? I know he was trying to make some bizarre point but some people on here were fairly privileged college students, I certainly was. If you got an extra hundred-and-fifty bucks to spend on food wouldn’t you have invested at least a little in some instant noodles or microwave dinners? Because even with a meal plan sometimes you miss dinner or you’re still studying after the cafeteria has closed. Matthew Boyle is that guy who always has money for pizza or gas to the all-night diner; he’s that person who never experienced even the minuscule privation of having all the food you could want everyday just not 24 hours a day.

Comment #52: scrumby  on  12/09  at  06:09 PM

Yeah, he tried to play it off like this was normal and common because (gasp!) the cashier didn’t throw a big fit and try to revoke his food stamp card.  I would interpret that as a cashier either being polite or just not paying attention because he’s watching the clock until his next break.  It’s a pretty big stretch to conclude that the cashier sees this all the time, but that’s all he has going for him so he’s willing to make that ridiculous stretch.  My cashiers rarely comment on anything I buy, presumably because once you work in that field for a month, nothing will surprise you anymore.

Comment #53: bananacat  on  12/09  at  06:13 PM

Y’all are completely missing the point of the Whole Foods trip, folks.  See, poor people should be forbidden from eating decent food; they should only be allowed to eat the cheapest junk available.

Exactly! Plus it shows that wingnut-boy has never had to care about the price of food and therefore doesn’t comparison-shop - sometimes Whole Foods has organic stuff on sale for cheaper than the non-organic equivalent at a non-hippie store.

Comment #54: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  12/09  at  06:16 PM

scrumby,

I was about as privileged as they come in college, and even I wasn’t nearly as bad as this asshole.  My parents paid the rent for my own apartment (no room mates), and I even had a credit card that would get billed to my parents (even though I was only supposed to use if for emergencies).  I also had some high-paid internships for extra spending money.  So this douche must be even more privileged than that.  There is something seriously wrong with him.

Comment #55: bananacat  on  12/09  at  06:17 PM

You know, that’s the second wingnut screed I’ve seen in the last month that had near universal revulsion from the comment threat it spawned. The other being AFA’s Brian Fischer’s belief that the Medal of Honor was being “feminized” by being awarded to those who risked their lives to save fellow soldiers, as opposed to killing a whole lot of enemies.

Here’s hoping to any sort of backlash against the Xtreem St00pid of the conservative movement.

Comment #56: Left_Wing_Fox  on  12/09  at  06:22 PM

My mother and father both suffered hunger as children:MA because that was part of the experience of being a prisoner of the Japanese in Shanghai, China, for 2 years or so; PA because he was born just as the Depression was getting underway.

It was only a few years ago he confided in me that this was the case although I wasn’t surprised because of family stories about Grandpa Avenger jacklighting deer to put meat on the family table, although other relatives contend that he enjoyed doing so because it was a forbidden activity, he was a native Texan, which I think tells you a lot.

I remember mom coming in on a movie on TV where the time period it was set in was uncertain unless you watched it from the beginning, and one of the characters threw some food at another character.  She remarked that it couldn’t be taking place during the Depression because people didn’t waste food if they could help it at that point in time.

Get a paper route, ya lazy bum!

Perhaps he’s just a pen name that Chris Elliot uses:

Get a Life is a television sitcom that was broadcast in the United States on the Fox Network from September 23, 1990, to March 8, 1992. The show starred Chris Elliott as a 30-year-old paperboy named Chris Peterson. Peterson lived in an apartment above his parents’ garage (Elliot’s parents were played by Elinor Donahue and his real life father, comedian Bob Elliott). The opening credits depicted Chris Peterson delivering newspapers on his bike to the show’s theme song, “Stand” by R.E.M.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_a_Life_(TV_series)

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/09  at  06:30 PM

This comment thread is spectacularly rich in hilarity.  Kudos to all!

+++
TECH STUFF: what’s been up w/the site for the last couple days??  DDOS attack?

Comment #58: Eric_RoM  on  12/09  at  06:51 PM

That’s what Boyle is hoping for. Basically you’re arguing that the “food stamp” system isn’t restricted enough, which is what he’s arguing. Any attempt to make it more punitive will affect people who need “food stamps” and not him. He’s like the guy who farts at the party, then leaves, his stench gagging everyone who’s left.

I understood from his article is that he thinks the abuse of the food stamp system is common, and that most of the people on food stamps are just using it on frivolities. I’m pretty sure that’s not true—the majority of people who apply for food stamps do so because they need it to eat.

So yes, making it more punitive for people who lie and cheat the system is a good thing, because it prevents people who don’t need food stamps from getting them. How does punishing those who lie makes the food stamp system more restrictive?

Comment #59: Celda  on  12/09  at  06:56 PM

Oh, I just found a jewel in the comments section of the Whole Foods article, by a commenter called “thephranc.”  Here’s a prime example of somebody who truly gets it:

Interesting arguments here. It seams some think the “poor” are entitled to do what ever they want with food stamps like they earned it. They don’t understand its my money they spend and as such I should be able to limit the food they buy with it.

Comment #60: sacundim  on  12/09  at  07:02 PM

What’s with the scare quotes?  Does he not actually think people are poor?

Novel argument here, but yes, the poor are entitled to purchase whatever food with food stamps.  They “earned” it, and “deserve” it by virtue of being human beings that need food and citizens of the United states.  It isn’t your money.  It has “United State’s government” printed right on it- it’s everyone’s money.  Why don’t you go do something to make yourself less of a bitter, self-righteous asshat.

Comment #61: Antigone  on  12/09  at  07:10 PM

The only point I can imagine Boyle is trying to make - nothing else makes sense - is that poor people shouldn’t be allowed to shop at nice stores like Whole Foods. Because, I guess, if they do, they’ll eat nice food. Of course they’ll starve the rest of the month, but that’s their own fault for having parents who don’t pay their rent, right?

sacundim @60: you have to stand a little in awe of a moron so egocentric that he believes he pays enough in taxes to find the entire food-stamp program. Yes, every single poor person in America is spending his money, and his money alone!

Memo to poor people who are spending my tax dollars on food stamps: I hope you’re able to buy affordable, healthy food with it. And if you see Boyle wandering around smelling like goat cheese, trip him.

Comment #62: mythago  on  12/09  at  07:18 PM

The DC application for food stamps specifically asks about whether you get any income other than your paycheck, including “Help with expenses.” It also specifically asks who pays for your expenses, including rent and utilities.

He didn’t just fail to volunteer information that wasn’t specifically asked for. He actively lied.

I also love his “proof” from campus news stories that most new food stamp recipients are college students, and therefore, they are all being supported by well-off parents just like he is. He admits there’s no data by occupation, so there is no proof that most or even many new recipients are students. Even if that’s true, how do you leap from that to “they’re all gaming the system”?

In my state, students are actually ineligible for food stamps if they are attending school more than half-time, unless they also work >20 hours a week, are disabled, or have a dependent child. And NC is far from the only state with rules like that. I’m pretty sure there’s not a massive nationwide epidemic of rich college kids buying mixers and party snacks with food stamps.

I’m also pretty sure there are a lot more people returning to college, or going for the first time, after losing their jobs—to try and get skills and qualifications for another job. If there really are more students receiving food stamps, I’d bet it’s because more people eligible for food stamps are becoming students.

Comment #63: snowmentality  on  12/09  at  07:19 PM

it prevents people who don’t need food stamps from getting them.

Any system that would catch and penalize such would intimidate or turn away people who actually need and deserve them. Doubt me? Lay out your system and I’ll critique it.

Comment #64: Hector B.  on  12/09  at  07:32 PM

Fucking food stamps, how do they work?

Comment #65: bomberE  on  12/09  at  07:39 PM

We need to start a rumour that poor people are using food stamps to buy contraceptives and RU486…

Comment #66: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/09  at  07:49 PM

It’s clear that not every one knows the difference between Food Stamps and WIC.

Food Stamps can be used to pay for any food except hot Deli food.

WIC is very restrictive. You can buy:
Baby Formula
Baby food (single flavor vegetables and fruits only, no mixed flavors, no meats.)
Milk
A fairly restrictive group of fairly healthy cereals (store brand only)
Fresh fruit and Vegetables (whole or half fruits, no quarter cut or chopped)
Cheese (Store brand)
Bread or Tortillas, 100% Whole wheat only.
Canned Beans or peanut butter (Creamy only, Store brand only)
Eggs

That’s pretty much it. WIC is a great program. Food Stamps could probably use some tightening up, but I’m not too worked up about it. I do cringe at how much Kool-Aid, soda, and chips I sell on stamps every day, though, I’m not gonna lie.

Comment #67: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/09  at  08:13 PM

Kantian Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it’s an ethos.

Comment #68: pablo  on  12/09  at  08:47 PM

He drove his own car to the various offices: many would have spent additional hours on the bus. He waited for hours during the day: many people have to work during that time. Or would be having to keep their kids quiet.

We receive food assistance and let me tell you it is a royal pain in the ass even with a car. I don’t drive so my husband has to take time off work, losing hourly pay. We have to do it in the narrow window of days they decide. Despite having an appointment, we have to sit around the office for sometimes as much as an hour twiddling our thumbs in a cattle-call environment where the workers happily yell out the full names of people whose turn it is. We never have a direct contact to a social worker or anyone who can answer our questions or who knows our family history, we have to take our luck with whatever overworked and bitter person answers the phone. And we have to do it every 6 months so they can give us the stink eye and inspect us to see that we’re not scamming them for our lousy $70/month.

They “earned” it, and “deserve” it by virtue of being human beings that need food and citizens of the United states.

And for many of us, by paying into the very same social safety net we now utilize. Just b/c someone is on assistance doesn’t mean they’ve always been or always will be.

They don’t understand its my money they spend and as such I should be able to limit the food they buy with it.

I cannot wait to tell the US military that I get to dictate how they spend my tax dollars. Lightning ice-cream-and-cupcake strike on my town!

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

<blockquote></blockquote>

Comment #69: kristin  on  12/09  at  09:35 PM

crap. must have been too excited about the ice cream and cupcakes.

Comment #70: kristin  on  12/09  at  09:37 PM

WIC is a great program.

If restrictiveness gets you stiff, sure.

It’s marginally useless to a lot of people I know/knew, though. (Starting with vegans, people with milk allergies, and people whose babies need soy formula.) Its real purpose seems most likely to be subsidizing certain agricultural markets.

Comment #71: kristin  on  12/09  at  09:39 PM

I remember (not personally of course, but from my reading) that hungry poor people get a little obstreperous, as in the French and Russian revolutions. Historical food doles and contemporary food stamp programs exist for a reason.

Comment #72: sara  on  12/09  at  10:19 PM

sacundim @60: The question you need to ask people like that is, do they want a country full of people who have enough to eat? Or do they want to be stepping over corpses on the street? Or perhaps they’d prefer to have society degraded to the point where the desperate poor are having to resort to outright theft?

Personally, I consider taxes a fair price to pay to live in a safe and healthy society, and part of making society safe and healthy is supporting those who need support. Prevents death through starvation, and all kinds of crimes of desperation. It makes my lifestyle possible, and well as everybody else’, really.

These people claim Christianity, but refuse to support the poor? Pretty piss-poor understanding of Jesus’ messages.

pablo @68: “We are nihilists! We believe in nossing! NOSSING!”

Comment #73: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  12/09  at  10:40 PM

Children with milk allergies can use WIC . It saved us when my child was a baby. She did and does have a milk allergy (lactose intolerant) and through WIC we were able to get her the LactoFree formula she needed. We never would have been able to afford it otherwise. That stuff was 17 bucks a can in 1998. We could have gotten soy formula if that’s what she required. You can also get pure fruit juices with WIC not just milk.

As for the comment made on the Whole Food article, not everyone who gets food stamps is unemployed, so that bullshit about “my money” is ridiculous. Many food stamp recipients are working poor so therefore it’s their money too. I guess the righteous indignation about welfare isn’t so righteous when you take into account that it’s possible to work full time and still qualify for benefits. If one puts “their money” into the welfare system and also collects welfare do the conservative shitbags still have a problem with it or is it just the unemployed who should starve?

Comment #74: Betsy Smith  on  12/09  at  10:47 PM

Many food stamp recipients are working poor so therefore it’s their money too.

At the thoroughly middle-class Thanksgiving I went to, I was shocked to find out that two of the young women there, college graduates whose mothers were friends of the hosts’, were on food stamps. Their paychecks (part-time, temporary) covered little beyond room rent and transportation.

@67: Stickers next to the dried beans in my nearest grocery tout they are eligible foods under WIC. Woo-hoo!

Comment #75: Hector B.  on  12/09  at  11:38 PM

Antigone at 61, no Republican actually believes poor people are poor. They just think they are un-deserving and thats why they suffer.

Comment #76: Lee  on  12/09  at  11:44 PM

I do cringe at how much Kool-Aid, soda, and chips I sell on stamps every day, though, I’m not gonna lie.

Are you also this judgmental about people who buy the exact same things without food stamps?  If not, then you kind of missed the entire point.  If so, then congratulations, you’re a judgmental asshole.

Comment #77: bananacat  on  12/09  at  11:53 PM

Any system that would catch and penalize such would intimidate or turn away people who actually need and deserve them. Doubt me? Lay out your system and I’ll critique it.

Here’s step 1:

If the people who lie on their application write a public article in a newspaper describing their fraudulent actions, then the police arrest them, throw them in jail for a few months, and fine them (they have money for fines, since if they were that poor they would qualify for food stamps without lying).

Now, maybe that method is too intimidating for some people. If so, too fucking bad.

Comment #78: Celda  on  12/09  at  11:59 PM

so quickly, too.

I found this on page 15 of the entry for Privilege Denying Dude.

amazing.

Comment #79: karpad  on  12/10  at  12:04 AM

When a government program has a large set of restrictions on how it can be used, right-wingers will complain that the government programs are inflexible are and interfering with individuals’ ability to help themselves by making whatever decisions are best for them under the circumstances. But when a government program is very flexible and uses transfer payments or vouchers that can be used however the beneficiary sees fit, right-wingers will complain how the program is unfair because the “undeserving” aren’t using the program in the “right way.” It’s an argument that liberals aren’t supposed to win.

If so, then congratulations, you’re a judgmental asshole.

There are worse sins than being judgmental.

Comment #80: Tyro  on  12/10  at  12:14 AM

They just want to get rid of food stamps altogether.  Are there no soup kitchens?
The conservative worldview is Social Darwinism.  Not that they’d call it that, of course.

Comment #18: liberalrob on 12/09 at 01:16 PM

No no no, Rob.  They’re Republicans.  It’s Social INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

Comment #81: Aunti Disestablishmentarian  on  12/10  at  12:17 AM

Fighting fraud in the system also has a cost. It may be that the cost of hiring people to investigate the claims made on the paperwork is more than the money wasted in fraud.

Comment #82: alysia  on  12/10  at  12:17 AM

@44, yeah, what’s up with conservatives using cell phone ownership as evidence that poor folks aren’t really poor? A cell phone can be pretty much a necessity for people who need a phone number to list on job applications, need to call the daycare to arrange to pick up their kid late after having to work extra hours, etc.
This tool claims that “a cell phone plan and an insurance policy are roughly the same price” which is BS (my cell phone cost $20/month as part of a family plan, which is likely what lots of folks have, while when I had to buy private insurance several years ago it was over $100/month and I’m in the healthy low-risk no-preexisting-condition category). http://blogs.forbes.com/larryvanhorn/2010/12/08/the-uninsured-buy-cell-phones-why-not-health-care/
The tackiest was when some dude on facebook claiming to be a doctor posted a rant about how Medicaid was wasted on not-actually-poor people and cited as evidence the fact that a patient had a cell phone with “the hottest new R&B;single” as her ringtone. 100% race-baiting, since white folks hear “R&B;” and think “black music”, and—former math major talking here—it’s not like the cost of a ringtone could pay for your hospital bill.
I first thought that this was just a meme among old conservatives who think cell phones are just a trend for spoiled teenagers, but if this douche is in college, he’s got to be aware that cell phone ownership is well-nigh universal in the US these days.

Comment #83: JessSnark  on  12/10  at  12:37 AM

“It’s perfectly simple - if you take away food stamps, there’s a place for Soylent Green.  And it’s possible to profit from that.”

Why not just cut out the whole process in the middle and just start encouraging cannibalism as a civic virtue? 

You’re missing the point.  The whole process in the middle is where the profits are.  Profit is always the point.  Direct cannibalism eliminates the profit potential of processing, packaging, marketing, distribution… what are you, a commie?

The problem with taking away food stamps, PIOTOR, is that it cuts out the possibility of combining agricorp subsidies with the commercialized cannibalism scenario:  Corn-fed Soylent Green.

Comment #84: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  12/10  at  01:57 AM

Fighting fraud in the system also has a cost. It may be that the cost of hiring people to investigate the claims made on the paperwork is more than the money wasted in fraud.

We’re not just talking about fraud, we’re talking about crimes. The reason you punish criminals / investigate crimes is not because of a financial incentive to do so (though there very well may be one). It’s because punishing lawbreakers is one of the cornerstones of any good society.

Comment #85: Celda  on  12/10  at  02:11 AM

Hmm, this sounds to me like it’s straight out of the right wing douchebag playbook.  You know, I’m an overprivileged liar and so everybody else must be too?

That this guy is trying to drum up false outrage over his fraudulently procuring foodstamps and then subsequent squandering of those funds to buy both luxury items and junk food is really just unsurprising.  That’s also standard operating procedure for these types, but the fact that he is so incapable of understanding that there are a huge number of Americans who need food assistance these days because of the horrible economy only further demonstrates his inability to grasp concepts like empathy and compassion (which is also in the right wing douchebag playbook, I believe.)

May his parents loose their cushy jobs and their corresponding ability to support their sponger of a son.  Then maybe he would learn what it’s like to actually struggle to put food on the table like so many of his fellow citizens already do every day.

Comment #86: Lolagirl  on  12/10  at  11:13 AM

It’s sort of interesting to see the “Poor people shouldn’t be allowed to buy frivolous food” thing interacting with “How dare you tax my sugary soda!” I guess it will the duty of the upper income brackets to consume as much coke and pepsi as possible once the poor are prohibited from consuming it. Noblesse oblige…

Comment #87: paul  on  12/10  at  11:52 AM

Lolagirl @ 87:
No, he isn’t capable of real learning, so that would just lead to him raging about the evils of the system and how he deserves better and why-ohwhy whining.  You know, straight out of that rigthwing douchebag playbook, just turn the page.

Comment #88: helen w. h.  on  12/10  at  11:56 AM

Matthew Boyle is that guy who always has money for pizza or gas to the all-night diner;

Yeah, he always has the money for pizza, but he comes along and tries to mooch a piece from the kids who DON’T have enough and missed dinner and decided to chip in together and splurge on Domino’s shit pizza.  And then Boyle gets all pissy when they say “No, this is my dinner, you can’t have a piece.” instead of just calling and ordering his own.

“Man!  They’re so rude!  I only wanted ONE PIECE!.  How selfish!”
——————————
As for cell phones?  My husband and I just ditched our $150/month plan for 2 no-contract, Android, Virgin Mobile $25/month phones.  Unlimited data!  We use that so much more than phoning anyway—and if we run out of minutes, we can Skype it.  They are so much cooler than our previous Crackberry phones.

Cell phones are cheap.

——————
Daily Caller review of Betty Buckley got slammed down in the comments as well.  Poor Tucker.

Comment #89: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/10  at  12:35 PM

idio @ 41, this reminds me of when Madonna was remodeling one of her houses in England. She wanted it all done by a certain date, and tried bribing the contractors, the workmen, etc., to get them to work overtime. To a man they all refused to give up their personal time to Madonna’s arbitrariness. That’s because their benefits come from the state and not from any employer. They weren’t at all dependent on her. She had to make do with their schedule.

Comment #90: LCforevah  on  12/10  at  12:57 PM

wanted it all done by a certain date, and tried bribing the contractors, the workmen, etc., to get them to work overtime.

Huh? Madonna tried to influence these workers to do something unethical for money?

I see nothing ethically wrong with offering people more money to work longer hours to get a job done sooner, even to meet an arbitrary deadline. In fact, I’ve known many people to do it for free—namely students pulling “all-nighters” to prepare for the arbitrary deadline of finals week.

Comment #91: Hector B.  on  12/10  at  01:20 PM

***Stickers next to the dried beans in my nearest grocery tout they are eligible foods under WIC. Woo-hoo!
Hector B.***
***You can also get pure fruit juices with WIC not just milk.
Betsy Smith***

Thought I might have forgotten something.


***  WIC is a great program.

If restrictiveness gets you stiff, sure.

It’s marginally useless to a lot of people I know/knew, though. (Starting with vegans, people with milk allergies, and people whose babies need soy formula.)***

That may have been true once, but certainly isn’t now. There are vegan options for every category of WIC-eligible food except maybe the cheese. Also, there’s a lot more to WIC than milk products.

WIC is restrictive for a reason. It’s not food stamps. It’s purpose is not to keep your belly full like food stamps, it’s purpose is to make sure that mothers and young children get proper nutrition early in life. It’s like a nutritional Head Start. Also, you would be surprised at how many people are eligible for WIC and don’t know it. It’s not just for poor people, it’s also for the working and lower middle classes.

***  I do cringe at how much Kool-Aid, soda, and chips I sell on stamps every day, though, I’m not gonna lie.

Are you also this judgmental about people who buy the exact same things without food stamps?  If not, then you kind of missed the entire point.  If so, then congratulations, you’re a judgmental asshole.
Catgirl***

First… Ummm…. fuck you.

Second, yeah, I kind of inwardly cringe at what a lot of people buy. But stuff like Kool-aid in particular is bought almost exclusively by people on EBT (Food Stamps). You look at some of the decision making at the grocery store by the long term poor and it kind of gives you the insight that there has probably been a lot of poor decision making in their lives that has ended up with them being part of the long term poor.

Comment #92: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/10  at  02:03 PM

I don’t think it’s a matter of it being unethical.  It’s merely to demonstrate that “free time” is something people actually enjoy and want if they don’t have the fear of being out on their ass with no health insurance.

Comment #93: Antigone  on  12/10  at  02:07 PM

Hey Hector? Way to miss the point. I was responding to idiosynchronic pointing out that when people are kept hungry, they can be manipulated, that is, made to do what they don’t want to do—sacrifice precious family time for a little extra pay.

“I see nothing ethically wrong with offering people more money to work longer hours to get a job done sooner, even to meet an arbitrary deadline.”

Neither do I—the point is that the person being offered the money should be able to make a real, not coerced choice.

NOT ONE WORKER/CONTRACTOR TOOK UP MADONNA’S OFFER. ¿Do you get it?

Because they live within a system that supports the basics of food, clothing, shelter and yes, health. They are not kept hungry. They can give a real “no thank you” as a response.

Comment #94: LCforevah  on  12/10  at  02:08 PM

I cannot wait to tell the US military that I get to dictate how they spend my tax dollars. Lightning ice-cream-and-cupcake strike on my town!
[random blockquotery]
Comment #69: kristin on 12/09 at 08:35 PM

crap. must have been too excited about the ice cream and cupcakes.
Comment #70: kristin on 12/09 at 08:37 PM

Hell, kristin, there’s no such thing as too excited about ice cream and cupcakes.  I read about your excellent idea and then wrote a work memo in ALL CAPS.

Comment #95: oldfeminist  on  12/10  at  03:11 PM

@95, words have meanings. A bribe is not the same thing as an incentive, because a bribe is a payment for an unethical act.

Madonna was free to offer the incentive and her tradesmen were free to turn it down. They would have made more money by accepting her offer, because people are not as efficient after eight hours as they are when working only eight hours. Thus a hundred hour job at straight time (2.5 weeks) would take 120 hours with overtime (two weeks at 6 days/week at 10 hours/day). And if you want your remodeling job completed by a certain date, EVERY contractor and craftsman must agree, else some things will not be done by that date. The guy installing the sink must wait for the sink cabinet to be installed who has to wait for the flooring to be installed who has to wait for the subflooring to be installed who has to wait for the support members to be installed. You can’t paint until the wall has been built. And so on.

Comment #96: Hector B.  on  12/10  at  03:21 PM

It takes a hell of a lot more than Kool Aid to make a person perpetually poor.  Let’s see:  school-to-prison pipeline, abstinence-only education, jobs, restricted access to healthcare, evictions/foreclosures. 

If you’re now in your 30s and you want some fucking flavored sweet water, what of it?

Comment #97: stubbles  on  12/10  at  03:25 PM

Hector: no, sometimes a bribe is a payment to prevent an unethical act. In some countries, for example, you have to pay to get papers processed by government officials, or to get medicine in hospitals, or to keep police from detaining you for no reason.

Here I think the term may make sense if the payments being offered were far in excess of typical overtime payments. Because someone would have felt pressure to cut corners, or to push their employees further than they wanted to.

Meanwhile, I can totally see why Koolaid (or however it’s spelled) would make perfect sense to low-information poor shoppers. Sure, it’s just sugar, but so is most fruit juice. Even if you’re poor your kids will need and want to drink a lot of liquids, and a lot of kids aren’t going want to drink what comes out of the tap in some apartments. What would you suggest as an alternative?

Comment #98: paul  on  12/10  at  03:36 PM

HECTOR, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.


I did not use the word bribe, nor did I infer or imply it. I was, as was idiosynchronic @ 41, talking about coercion due to hunger. When you keep a segment of society hungry, then that segment can be coerced, by money or other incentives, to do things they wouldn’t ordinarily do.

I used to sell construction supplies. Your explanation of the domino effect due to the way jobs must be scheduled one after another is correct, and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POINT!

Comment #99: LCforevah  on  12/10  at  03:43 PM

Interestingly, I just came from the grocery store.  Here in Minnesota is the break down (Prices rounded accordingly, because the .99 and .49 is silly):

$2.50 for a thing of orange juice (on sale now)
$2.00 for orange juice concentrate store-brand crap
$3.50 for organic orange juice

Canister of Kool-Aid, where you can make about 48 gallons of the crap- $1.30.  I’ve seen the knock-off at the Dollar Store.  Even with 3-pound bag of sugar on the side (on sale at .77 for the holidays with coupon, regular 1.75) you’re still getting much more bang for your buck in terms of having something to drink.

So, yeah.  Seems to be a pretty straight-forward cost benefit analysis to me.  Cover up the taste of shitty water, get your kids hydrated, and if you do what my parents did, you half the sugar they say to add.  Is it healthy?  Not particularly.  But much less sugar than soda, and much more economical than juice.

Comment #100: Antigone  on  12/10  at  04:36 PM

I did not use the word bribe,

Post 91 was composed by a different LCforevah, got it.

Your assertion that not a single person took Madonna up on her offer loses some of its force when you consider that no bonus would have been forthcoming unless all had taken her up on her offer.

And I do understand that some people value their free time more than they value overtime pay. Brits are among the world’s greatest hobbyists.

Comment #101: Hector B.  on  12/10  at  04:37 PM

I think at some point somebody said something like: “you know the poor are living breathing people’. He thought that meant they were Breatharians.

I’m sure he has also ‘proved’ that the whole university system is useless since you can buy papers from other people and still get an A. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if he hasn’t ‘proven’ it multiple times.

Comment #102: JohnL  on  12/10  at  04:58 PM

Hector, you’re arguing over a matter of degree and still missing the point. Sigh.

Comment #103: LCforevah  on  12/10  at  05:02 PM

LCforevah, you were trying to imply that Madonna was doing something unethical and coercive. Offering to pay people MORE MONEY isn’t a “bribe” or a coercive exploitation of captive workers. Most of us generally think an employer should be willing to pay us more money if they want us to do more work. That an employer would actually offer such a deal sounds pretty good.

Comment #104: Tyro  on  12/10  at  05:11 PM

***Meanwhile, I can totally see why Koolaid (or however it’s spelled) would make perfect sense to low-information poor shoppers.***

Maybe that’s a better phrasing of what I was trying to say: “low-information poor shoppers”. You have to figure that if they are that low-information in food choices, they are probably low-information in many other areas of life.

The water around here isn’t shitty. And if they are like many people, they probably put double the recommended sugar, not half. They also buy a LOT of it…20 to thirty packs at a time. I think there are a lot of people out there who don’t even know what tap water tastes like, outside of when they brush their teeth. And this is something I mentioned over at Coates’s blog, and had confirmed by one of his users who had grown up in the long term poor, but a not insignificant amount of the LTP think of Juice, sugar water punch, and other drinks with no actual juice in them all as “Juice” interchangeably. I work in a store that serves an area with many long-term and multi-generational poor and I hear it all the time. I am not saying anyone’s a bad person or doesn’t deserve assistance, it is just very clear to anyone who works in a grocery store that serves the LTP that they either haven’t been given the information, or haven’t bothered to learn how to make smart diet choices.

That’s what makes WIC such a good program. To get WIC vouchers you have to actually attend classes on baby nutrition. People on WIC are getting both a food and knowledge benefit. Most people on WIC are also on EBT, and they can buy all the junk food they want with that, so it’s not a case of “restrictiveness getting me stiff”.


I don’t want it to seem that I am really hung up on Kool-aid, it’s just the best example. I could have made some of the same points about Hostess and Little Debbies products being bought in bulk.

Comment #105: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/10  at  05:29 PM

Tyro, no such thing. That’s what you’re reading into it. I’m saying that Madonna tried several times with several contractors to get them to do something on extra time and they would have none of it. Her attempts were never unethical in Britain, but were culturally inept. She found herself in another country thinking that she could use monetary incentives the way she does in California to get workers to do things her way. The majority of construction workers in California are nonunion and have no benefits. They CAN be pressured. Brits are union and are protected.
She found that Brits were having none of her incentives because they have other priorities.

My take is that one of the reasons they could say no is because Brits have a social safety net that Californians and other US citizens don’t have. Which is part of what @ 41 was saying.

“Offering to pay people MORE MONEY isn’t a “bribe” or a coercive exploitation of captive workers.”

It IS a coercive exploitation of captive workers in California because so many construction workers are illegal or barely legal and so someone like Madonna can say, take the money or else “la migra” will be called. At that point my friends, it is coercive and unethical.

Comment #106: LCforevah  on  12/10  at  06:50 PM

That may have been true once, but certainly isn’t now. There are vegan options for every category of WIC-eligible food except maybe the cheese.

Could be. I last received WIC 3 years ago. Although we were still poor as shit, we stopped receiving it because the trouble of going in, the intrusiveness of having my kids weighed and being grilled on what they ate, the deluge of booklets full of inedible recipes, and the constant condescension wasn’t worth a couple bags of cereal, some milk and beans and some juice. Also, I think it might vary by state.

To get WIC vouchers you have to actually attend classes on baby nutrition.

See above re: 3 years ago, but I never did. In something like 7 years total of receiving WIC (for two kids) I went to one “parenting class” that was me in an empty room with some lady watching my kids play and her literally telling me “I don’t think there’s anything I can tell you about handling your kids that you don’t already know.” And I was not some super parent or anything.

There were always “informational” posters and pamphlets on food and nutrition but seriously, honestly, I cannot imagine even the poorest and most disadvantaged person not knowing the information they contained (except for the bad recipes). Also, they gave us TONS of juice for our toddler and small child, and then told us that toddlers and small children shouldn’t have much juice b/c it causes obesity and rots their teeth.

Anyway, the message I take away from your approval of WIC (and I may be misreading) is that it’s a great program because it restricts the recipient’s choices (to things you approve of), paternalizes them and generally puts them in a childlike position. And those are exactly the reasons I dislike WIC.

If you’re now in your 30s and you want some fucking flavored sweet water, what of it?

For a while after I found those little apple-shaped bottles of Martinelli apple juice on sale somewhere, I kept a stash of them in my closet b/c when things go pear shaped and I am stressed, drinking sweet apple juice from an apple-shaped bottle makes it better. I know the poorer I am the more stressed I am, and if somebody poorer and more stressed than me gets through the week with a big pitcher of Koolaid—probably what they grew up on and certainly cheaper than apple juice and not significantly different in terms of nutrition—who the fuck am I to judge?

Hell, kristin, there’s no such thing as too excited about ice cream and cupcakes.  I read about your excellent idea and then wrote a work memo in ALL CAPS.

I am having a shitty day, but this made it. smile

Comment #107: kristin  on  12/10  at  07:04 PM

Most people on WIC are also on EBT, and they can buy all the junk food they want with that

Wait, wait. WIC teaches the ignorant poor people to know the difference between sugar water and organic whole grain probiotic smoothies, but most people on WIC are also on food stamps and you see people on food stamps buying Koolaid and Little Debbies all the time?

Which is it? Does WIC make the ignorant poor people smarter about food or not?

Comment #108: kristin  on  12/10  at  07:09 PM

Anyway, the message I take away from your approval of WIC (and I may be misreading) is that it’s a great program because it restricts the recipient’s choices (to things you approve of), paternalizes them and generally puts them in a childlike position. And those are exactly the reasons I dislike WIC.

The reason I approve of it is that it ensures that children get SOME decent nutrition. It protects small children in early life, to some extent, from the really bad nutritional choices their parents tend to make.  I’m not talking about educated people going through a rough patch here, I’m talking about long-term, poorly educated, and often multi-generational poor.  I don’t think any of the people getting their feathers ruffled here have any clue about that, or have any experience with people in that category.

People who believe that there should be no strings on public assistance are almost as crazy as the “let them starve” wingnuts. Most of them come off as ivory tower liberals who don’t have the first bit of practical experience with the issue.

Which is it? Does WIC make the ignorant poor people smarter about food or not?

It puts the knowledge in their hands. What they do with it is their choice.

Also, you keep talking like I’m being mean to people who eat bad food and drink occasionally when they are stressed. You don’t seem to realize that to a not insignificant number of the long term poor snack cakes and sugar water drinks are among the main staples of their diets(along with frozen pizzas). I see it every day. 70% of the people coming through my line are paying with EBT or WIC, and the pattern is recognizable and obvious.

Comment #109: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/11  at  01:13 AM

To the extent that poor people do make poor food choices, it is directly related to the topic of this blog post—advertising crappy food.  In a libertarian paradise, you’d have even more of this, because it’s great to lie in order to cheat people out of their money if they’re “stupid” because “stupid” people don’t deserve to live well.

Not everyone has the resources or time or education to sort through all the information they’re bombarded with.  It’s not just a matter of not having learned to do it, it’s a matter of having been taught to think wrong.

Why not just listen to the government?  Well, the government has a pretty shitty history of being dishonest with poor and minority people, too.  People have long memories and tell their kids.

Companies, government agencies, TV shows, school, it’s a constant stream of bullshit.  If it’s all lies, why not go with the lie that tastes good?  As Kristin said, there’s not a lot of difference between apple juice, other juices (which are generally juice blends with loads of apple juice in them), and Kool-Aid, which has vitamins added to it, weighs a lot less than a bottle of juice (if you walk or take the bus to the store this is huge), and comes in a bunch of fun flavors and colors.

Comment #110: oldfeminist  on  12/11  at  02:04 AM

You don’t seem to realize that to a not insignificant number of the long term poor snack cakes and sugar water drinks are among the main staples of their diets(along with frozen pizzas).

No, you don’t seem to realize that I don’t care whether you approve of their food choices or not. That your criticism of their choices is indistinguishable in type if not in degree from the dude who said these people are spending HIS money and therefore HE has a right to limit what they did with it. Pearl clutching over how you’d be fine with it if they only did it occasionally but these people, these people do it TOO MUCH is bullshit.

Snack cakes and sugar water drinks are among the main staples of many a privileged college kid’s diet too, but no one tongue clicks and tuts over it in the same way they do over what poor people eat. The assumption seems to be that if only poor people would be smart enough to eat organic kale and steel cut oats every day, they might magic themselves out of poverty or something, or that they’re poor in the first place because they’re too stupid to tell the difference between kale and Ho-Hos. But that’s not going to happen, and in the meantime these people have a strong human drive to consume the foods they’re familiar with and to resent being treated like dim children who can’t be trusted to choose their own meals—especially when actual dim children who aren’t poor don’t receive the same amount of scrutiny and criticism.

Comment #111: kristin  on  12/11  at  02:49 AM

    As Kristin said, there’s not a lot of difference between apple juice, other juices (which are generally juice blends with loads of apple juice in them), and Kool-Aid, which has vitamins added to it, weighs a lot less than a bottle of juice (if you walk or take the bus to the store this is huge), and comes in a bunch of fun flavors and colors.

This is where I remind you that you can only get 100% juices on WIC, no blends.

I just find it really weird that you seem to think that the government has no right or responsibility to regulate what people buy with assistance given to them by the government. Should we let them buy alcohol also? After all, MD 20/20 is probably more nutritious than Koolaid or those 1 gallon jugs of fruit punch. Anything else you want to make food stamp eligible?

It’s not just a matter of not having learned to do it, it’s a matter of having been taught to think wrong.

Exactly… so what’s wrong with some regulation to mitigate the problem? I don’t know why anyone besides the corporate food conglomerates and fuzzy-headed idealists would have any problem with more regulation. People like you are playing right into the hands of the RJR/Nabiscos of the world while they laugh their way to the bank on our tax money.

Snack cakes and sugar water drinks are among the main staples of many a privileged college kid’s diet too, but no one tongue clicks and tuts over it in the same way they do over what poor people eat.

That’s because their tax money isn’t paying for it. Feel free to ruin your health on your own dime.


Quite frankly, if you are just coming down from your ivory tower with no practical experience, your opinion has no value to me… or at all. Get your head out of the clouds and join the real world.

Comment #112: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/11  at  03:27 AM

That’s because their tax money isn’t paying for it. Feel free to ruin your health on your own dime.

And now your true colors emerge. There’s no big difference between you and Matthew Boyle.

Comment #113: kristin  on  12/11  at  03:30 AM

I really, really, don’t understand how you think, Kristin, and I am glad of it. Maybe that’s why things tend to go “pear-shaped” for you. Sounds like things might be hitting a little close to home.

Comment #114: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/11  at  04:13 AM

Bruce:  poor people pay taxes too.

Comment #115: Denise  on  12/11  at  05:22 AM

Offering to pay people MORE MONEY isn’t a “bribe” or a coercive exploitation of captive workers. Most of us generally think an employer should be willing to pay us more money if they want us to do more work. That an employer would actually offer such a deal sounds pretty good.

Yes, that is the point.  In the US, most workers pretty much have to kowtow to their employers’ whims, and if the employer condescends to follow the law to the extent of doing things like paying you more money to do more work, that’s praiseworthy.  The Madonna story demonstrates that this state of affairs is not universal and that there are well-functioning societies where people are free to turn down the opportunity to do extra work, without fear of losing their jobs (and consequently their health care).

Comment #116: A.  on  12/11  at  07:58 AM

Bruce:  poor people pay taxes too.

I know, Denise… I’m pretty much part of the working poor. I make just enough to not be eligible for EBT, although many of my coworkers are on it. Although, if you are poor enough, you don’t actually pay income taxes. I can barely afford to pay my taxes and people on assistance are whining about the few meager rules they have to follow? Boo fucking hoo. Some people here are acting like having a few common sense regulations about public assistance is fascism or something. Gimme a break.

Comment #117: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/11  at  02:45 PM

@Bruce: How many hours a week count as “meager rules” for Food Stamps?  What I mean to say is, how many hours of completely unproductive time jumping through hoops is low enough that they qualify as “meager”?

I can tell you’re one of those Extremely Smart Conservatives, so I’m sure you have carefully defined rules and in no way do you change the definitions of words to satisfy your emotional needs during an argument.

Comment #118: Punditus Maximus  on  12/12  at  12:15 AM

The main argument in favor of restricting food stamps to “food” is that it alters the power dynamic in a household which is making decisions about consumption.  The idea is to strengthen the hand of members of the household who are arguing for nutrition as a priority.  This may be a good idea.  As game theory shows, sometimes you’re better off when some options are closed.

The other justifications are just people like Bruce getting gratification from pushing around people in bad situations.  It’s a lousy hobby, but a lot of people seem to be into it.  Of course, if they find themselves in a bad way, they get very frightened of people like themselves.

Comment #119: Punditus Maximus  on  12/12  at  12:18 AM

Punditus… I am not conservative at all. Most people would consider me well to the left of center. I’m not talking about spending time jumping through hoops, I am just talking about a few minor restrictions as to what you can buy with it. We already restrict Alcohol and hot food from EBT, and I would add a few other things to it. Specifically, anything that provides no nutritional benefit, not even calories, like bottled water and diet soda (at least in areas with decent water). I would look real hard at restricting the stuff that offers no benefit beyond empty sugar calories, like the sugar water punch sold in the dairy section, Kool-aid, and soda. That’s really about as far as I would go.

And as far as WIC goes, I would like for them to make it easier to use. The way it currently works in Missouri slows down the line considerably, which punishes not only the WIC customer, but everyone in line behind them.

I can tell you’re one of those Extremely Smart Conservatives, so I’m sure you have carefully defined rules and in no way do you change the definitions of words to satisfy your emotional needs during an argument.

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You don’t know anything about me. I’ve got practical experience, do you? I see a lot of people here talking about shit they know nothing about, and I’m guessing you are one of them.

Comment #120: Bruce from Missouri  on  12/12  at  01:38 AM

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Comment #121: Isabella89  on  12/14  at  05:04 AM

agreed with kristin that packaged snack foods and sugary drinks are prevalent among privileged college kids and rich folks too and they don’t get criticized for it in the same way. The people I know with the worst diets are friends of mine making 6 figures as software engineers. They love fried chicken, hate vegetables, and pretty much always either eat in a restaurant or make frozen pizza or ramen at home. And that’s their right. Why is it hard to believe that poor people have the same right?

Comment #122: JessSnark  on  12/16  at  12:59 AM
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