I love the way it starts:

“That the news media were biased in the 2008 presidential election is now acknowledged by fair-minded people, left or right “

So if you disagree with him, you are, ipso facto, not fair-minded.

Schmuck.

Interesting. So how does this explain children with HIV/AIDs and babies born with it? Ostensibly, their mothers were heterosexual (at least long enough to get pregnant). Which also brings up the question of how women could get HIV/AIDs at all, let alone in greater and greater numbers (since lesbian sex is one of the hardest ways to transmit HIV)…

Silly; God likes lesbians, at least, enough to not prohibit their practices as much as he prohibits dirty guy buttsecks.  It’s presumably because he’s a red-blooded American male and he likes to watch.

hey azzy! fancy seeing you here!

Long ago I read that AIDS was originally spread by long-distance truck drivers in Africa, where a room for the night with a “girl” was attractively priced compared to one without. Adherence to traditional sex roles ensured the spread of heterosexual AIDS. Few would argue that AIDS is not spread by heterosexual contact in Africa today.

This is a very, very dangerous mindset. I know (ok, knew) guys who honestly believed that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to serve in the army because you bleed when you are shot, and gay men are “they might have AIDS”. The idea being that ( A ) gays have AIDS and straights don’t and ( B ) MOST gays have AIDS.

One guy could not understand why I laughed in his face when he said that. When I told him that straight people have AIDS too, he was enraged and simply did not believe me.

So Magic Johnson (ahem) is just pretending to be straight?

Not just fundies

http://www.alternet.org/story/326/

Oh, I get it, no good Christian man would go for gay hookups and then come home to bang his wife ... not like Larry Craig or anything.

FWIW, I think a lot of this might have to do with the way AIDS was discussed early in the game (early to mid 80’s).  The first American heterosexuals to seek treatment for AIDS were generally IV drug users, and it spread much, much faster in the gay community (for several complex reasons I won’t go into here) than it did by hetero junkies having hetero sex.  The first infants to be discovered with AIDS were the children of drug addicts.  Said heterosexuals and infants were generally very poor, stigmatized as individuals, and not exactly photogenic, so they were swept under the rug for years (it’s very easy to just ignore the doctors at the charity hospital swearing up and down that they’re seeing straight patients and infants with a disease known at that point as “Gay Cancer").  It really wasn’t until scientists began to understand the true nature of the spread of HIV later in the 80’s that it became clear that, yes, just like any other sexually transmitted disease, straight people can definitely get it.

It’s easy, if you’re a total choad, to just stick to 25 year old research and ignore all real scholarship on the matter.  Or pretend that the last 25 years of scientific advances are illegitimate, and that the folks who published papers speculating that AIDS was caused by something unique about gay sex, or possibly drugs commonly used in gay circles, were correct all along.

Also, a lot of the wingnuttiest wingnuts are old, and their major understanding of HIV/AIDS is still as “that gay disease”.  I’m 27, and I don’t remember a time when we didn’t understand how people got AIDS—someone who’s 77 lived most of their life without being aware of it at all.  People like being told things that make sense to them (no matter how fucked up their worldview happens to be), especially when they coincidentally make the world seem like a nicer place ("I don’t have to worry about this, because it only happens to queers, and I don’t know any queers thank god...")

If this sounds familiar, it’s because it’s the explanation for every single thing movement conservatives haven’t liked since Reagan.  Global warming?  Check.  Evolution?  Check.  Labor unions?  Check.  Underage sex not causing your junk to wither off and die?  Check.  The Constitution?  Check.

Fumento is too modest by half. How many humans in the course of history can claim credit for a Unified Theory of Douchebaggery?

Actually, Ms. Kate, I’m going to have to say it’s probably true that no good Christian man would go out for gay hookups before coming home to his wife.  Since Christianity (even the more open, gay-affirming branches, let alone the fundy brands practiced by Republicans) ostensibly is pro-monogamy, faithfulness, and anti-hypocrisy and lying, a good Christian doesn’t have affairs with anybody, and certainly not in a manner that threatens to expose his partner to deadly STIs.  A bad Christian, on the other hand…

I was actually not aware of this idea that heterosexuals don’t get/have AIDS. I wonder if it’s because I’ve known some that do or because I’m not totally fucking out of my god damned mind.

Even the natural sciences are increasingly subject to being rendered a means to a “progressive” end. There was the pseudo-threat of heterosexual AIDS in America—science manipulated in order to de-stigmatize AIDS as primarily a gay man’s disease and to increase funding for AIDS research.

Oh, come on Prager, stop blaming the Velvet Mafia for promoting the myth of heterosexual AIDs—everyone knows it was a conspiracy by the condom companies to increase sales beyond the gay male demographic.

Even the natural sciences are increasingly subject to being rendered a means to a “progressive” end.

Well, we all know reality tends to have a liberal bias.

Seriously, though, these folks don’t understand that a virus can’t tell the difference between one human and the next?  How can they be afraid of gay soldiers who might bleed on them if heterosexuals don’t get teh AIDS?

All the heterosexual AIDS victims in Africa don’t count b/c they’re not white, right?  Not being white is automatically “not good”.

libdevil, wingnuts are *never* “good Christians,” as much as they like to bleat about it.  They don’t feed the hungry, tend to the sick, or comfort the imprisoned, which is what Jesus said they should do.  They bleat about how holy they are and want others to acknowledge their righteousness, which is what Jesus said NOT to do.

Jesus visited lepers.  He most certainly would have been in the thick of AIDS patients, doing what he could to ease their suffering.

Whatever they are, these “Christians” aren’t followers of Christ’s teachings.

“-- Oh, I get it, no good Christian man would go for gay hookups and then come home to bang his wife ... not like Larry Craig or anything.  --”

Don’t be silly.  Larry Craig doesn’t sleep with his wife.

I’m almost done with a fairly asinine human sexual biology class (the material is fine, the assignments are the annoying part).  One of my assigned “research” articles was a Time piece from 1990 about persistent myths in pop culture.  One of them was “AIDS is caused by anal sex.” I was gobsmacked by the very idea.

I dont get why pointing out 31percent of new aids cases are het supports your argument a ton. If what, 80% of people are het and “only” 31 percent of new cases involve them, couldnt fundies still say its a gay thing, use their bernard goldberg bias books to discount it? Its not like a lot of them think rationally.

To a degree, this is a function of the narcissism of most right-wing authors. It’s true, odds that you will get HIV from heterosexual contact with a straight middle class person are pretty low and the preachings about the imminent dangers of HIV infection to middle class college students on campuses around America were pretty much a noble myth to encourage the increased use of condoms as well as to nip even the slightest potential of an outbreak of AIDS devastating the general population as heavily as it did the gay community. This had a side-benefit which stemmed the spread of other STDs and reduced the number of unwanted pregnancies. So-- talking about the dangers of HIV spread through heterosexual contact (a) largely stemmed such a devastating spread of HIV and (b) promoted a lot of safer sex practices, making them almost universal for those who came of age at a certain time. Meanwhile, the spread of AIDS through heterosexual contact is a reality in Africa and in the US a serious risk among those whose partners are men who have sex with other men or IV drug users. To pretend that heterosexual AIDS doesn’t exist simply because it’s not a big factor within your own demographic community is just another case of right-wing self-absorption.

Also, is research in a widespread deadly disease less deserving of funding simply because it affected mostly gays in the western world? I’m really not sure where the outrage should be when it comes to Prager’s statement. I mean, am I supposed to be upset that we poured a lot of funding into fighting a new, deadly, contagious disease?

I’ll make sure to tell my sister that AIDS is a hetero non-event.  Ooops.  Can’t do that.  She died of AIDS 9 years ago.

What the fuck, Foo Fighters?  If AIDS is caused by toxic HIV drugs, then how did people get HIV and AIDS before the treatments?

Just b/c AIDS was brought to the country by some gay Haitian and started spreading in the gays first has nothing to do with its existence as a virus or its ability to be passed on through bodily fluids.

Talk about Dark Ages...I was over there and read most of the comments (brain bleach STAT) and the whole remark about fictitious hetero-AIDS transmission has been ignored.  My head’s still spinning. 

I can kinda see the anti-Darwin side--GAWD is the CRE-AAAAAY-TOR, but if you acknowledge the existence of HIV and AIDS, doesn’t that mean you understand germs are involved?  And that single cell organisms don’t discriminate by sexual orientation?

Shit.  The stupid burns.

Given that the highest rate for new infections is among Blacks, I can’t imagine why the AmTaliban is getting all hot & bothered - I’m sure they figure HIV/AIDS is punishment for being brown or gay.

I dont get why pointing out 31percent of new aids cases are het supports your argument a ton. If what, 80% of people are het and “only” 31 percent of new cases involve them, couldnt fundies still say its a gay thing, use their bernard goldberg bias books to discount it? Its not like a lot of them think rationally.

The fact that your opposition eats rocks doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t point out that it’s not chicken.

To be fair, it was Ronald Reagan who caused AIDS.

Those dirty hippy haemophiliac children, pushing the librul agenda!

Amazing how their tune never changes, ever.

“I dont get why pointing out 31percent of new aids cases are het supports your argument a ton. If what, 80% of people are het and “only” 31 percent of new cases involve them, couldnt fundies still say its a gay thing, use their bernard goldberg bias books to discount it? Its not like a lot of them think rationally.”

I believe that the thrust of Mr. Prager’s (a Reform Jew, not a Xtianist Fundie Godbag) analysis is that a) a “consensus” of scientists can be wrong; and b) it is wrong to lie to people in order to get them to think and act as you would have them do. 

I recall that there was the prediction that AIDS would be a pandemic among suburban housewives in the United States.  The event did not occur.  The object of the exercise was to allocate inordinate public health resources to the study of HIV/AIDS that would not otherwise have been so allocated because at there are diseases which affect many more Americans and for which contracting the disease is not as behaviorally dependant as it is with HIV/AIDS.

Mr. Prager’s (a Reform Jew, not a Xtianist Fundie Godbag)

Considering that he spends a lot of time talking about how the US is a Christian country and he’s perfectly fine having Judaism be subordinate to Christianity, he’s not a very fervent Jew, to say the least.

“Considering that he spends a lot of time talking about how the US is a Christian country and he’s perfectly fine having Judaism be subordinate to Christianity, he’s not a very fervent Jew, to say the least.”

Funny, because I hear him now and again and I don’t recall him “subordinating” Judaism to Christianity.  Perhaps he hasn’t the Jesus allergy that you think he ought?  I’m also reminded that he’s endeavored to teach Torah, which is kind of a Jewish pastime.

Allow me to use Propaganda to demonstrate a point I’ve made about right-wingers before.

I recall that there was the prediction that AIDS would be a pandemic among suburban housewives in the United States.  The event did not occur.

You see, the fact that this event did not occur means that it was impossible for it to ever occur, because if it was possible for it to occur, it would have happened already.  Therefore, the fact that AIDS did not spread to the general population because of the strong public health measures enacted by Surgeon General Koop means that it was impossible for it to have happened even if he didn’t take those public health measures.

This is why they think preparing for anything—preventing pregnancy, preparing for natural disasters, regulating banks so they can’t blow their customers’ money on imaginary “financial instruments”—is useless.  They think that things either happen or they don’t and there’s no way to prevent something from happening.  This is why Alan Greenspan’s reaction to the financial crisis was “shocked disbelief”—he literally didn’t understand that if you take no steps to prevent companies from playing games with other people’s money, you pretty much guarantee that they will do so.

Prop, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly and in such a concise way.

The “myth” of heterosexual AIDS

Heterosexual AIDS <b>in America</a>, Jesse, please.

Presumably those dirty Africans engage in dangerous sexual practices spreading it which would never ever occur to clean minded naive Westerners.  Swinging from vines or something, I don’t know.

I’d love to ask these numbwits questions about why they think straight Americans are immune…

Phoencian - if you look at Fumento’s book, he even seems to argue that Africans really don’t have all the AIDS we say they have.  Just one more instance of dirty liberals promoting the gay African agenda.

Dennis Prager thinks that everyone of any religion should be required to take oaths on the Christian Bible and not their own holy book.  He thinks that Jews who insist on taking oaths on the Torah and not the Christian Bible are wrong to do so.

Please explain how that is not Prager saying that his professed religion (and all other non-Christian religions) should be subordinated to Christianity.

“You see, the fact that this event did not occur means that it was impossible for it to ever occur, because if it was possible for it to occur, it would have happened already.  Therefore, the fact that AIDS did not spread to the general population because of the strong public health measures enacted by Surgeon General Koop means that it was impossible for it to have happened even if he didn’t take those public health measures.

This is why they think preparing for anything—preventing pregnancy, preparing for natural disasters, regulating banks so they can’t blow their customers’ money on imaginary “financial instruments”—is useless.  They think that things either happen or they don’t and there’s no way to prevent something from happening.  This is why Alan Greenspan’s reaction to the financial crisis was “shocked disbelief”—he literally didn’t understand that if you take no steps to prevent companies from playing games with other people’s money, you pretty much guarantee that they will do so.

Prop, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly and in such a concise way.”

Um, not really.  The agitprop held that PIV and a trip to Ye Olde Bathouse and 8Ball Dispensary were equally effective ways of contracting the virus.  The Godbags already had the prevention angle covered, as in their aversion to sodomy and support for the Patriarchal institution of marriage. 

Prager is referring to a matter of scale - the proposition that the rates of HIV in the general public would match the rates of HIV in the homosexual community.  I don’t recall anyone ever stating that no straight person could contract the disease.

Mnem, you rock!

“Please explain how that is not Prager saying that his professed religion (and all other non-Christian religions) should be subordinated to Christianity.”

Although I don’t reach his conclusion, his argument was that the swearing of oaths upon the KJV was the established practice in the United States, and that Jews, Muslims, and perhaps other Christians who prefer the Douay Rheims needn’t upset the established tradition by forcing an accomodation that isn’t warranted.  In other words, there are circumstances in which conformity to the established order should be observed for the sake of unity.  E Pluribus Unum and such.

I think a real way to subordinating Judaism to Christianity would be for Prager to worship Jesus Christ as God. 

I do see where you are coming from, though Mnem – I mean he dithers about with the Torah and Shabbas and Mezzuzzahs and worhiping the God of Abraham, Issac and Joseph and such, instead of engaging in real, authentic Jewish activities like the New York Times crossword puzzle and active membership in the ACLU.

I think a real way to subordinating Judaism to Christianity would be for Prager to worship Jesus Christ as God. 

That wouldn’t be SUBORDINATING Judaism to Christianity, that would be BECOMING A CHRISTIAN.

Um, not really.  The agitprop held that PIV and a trip to Ye Olde Bathouse and 8Ball Dispensary were equally effective ways of contracting the virus.  The Godbags already had the prevention angle covered, as in their aversion to sodomy and support for the Patriarchal institution of marriage.

Man, he just keeps circling the same drain, doesn’t he?

Again, your argument is that it was impossible for AIDS to spread to heterosexuals because it didn’t happen.  Please try to present an argument that doesn’t depend on your assumption that since it didn’t happen, it was impossible that it could ever happen, especially given the fact that it did happen in Africa, where it is primarily a heterosexual disease.

Although I don’t reach his conclusion, his argument was that the swearing of oaths upon the KJV was the established practice in the United States, and that Jews, Muslims, and perhaps other Christians who prefer the Douay Rheims needn’t upset the established tradition by forcing an accomodation that isn’t warranted.

In other words, Jews, Muslims and perhaps other Christians should be willing to subordinate their religious beliefs to the established practice in the United States.  Which is, um, exactly what I said.

I recall that there was the prediction that AIDS would be a pandemic among suburban housewives in the United States.  The event did not occur.

I don’t recall that particular prediction, but I imagine it was made because it did happen in many parts of Africa: HIV spread to housewives through their husbands, who visited prostitutes while working away from home.  Fortunately, it didn’t happen in the U.S., partly because our culture and demographics are significantly different (in many poor parts of Africa, men have to travel constantly to find work, so they’re away from home for long periods of time and thus more likely to visit prostitutes) and partly because we instituted a public health campaign that was very effective in slowing the spread of HIV into new populations.  It wasn’t because of a liberal conspiracy to unfairly divert health funding to undeserving gay people.

the preachings about the imminent dangers of HIV infection to middle class college students on campuses around America were pretty much a noble myth to encourage the increased use of condoms as well as to nip even the slightest potential of an outbreak of AIDS devastating the general population as heavily as it did the gay community.

Your typical college environment mimics the scene in gay communities in the early years of HIV almost to a T.  Lots of partying.  Everyone fucks everyone else, casual sex is rampant, and comparatively few people are in entirely monogamous long-term relationships.  Social scenes are relatively insular, especially at small schools and ‘land grant’ universities, except for at a few times of year when young people travel to concentrated locations to engage in even more promiscuous behavior than usual, with people they’re even less likely to know.  There’s also a good deal of experimentation with drugs. 

Frankly, I’m pretty sure the only reason Breeder America didn’t have the same outcome (in the West, anyway) as the gay community did is PURELY because condom use was promoted in time to make a difference.  Because honestly, all it would have taken was 5-10 beautiful jet-setting HIV-infected trustafarians hopping from Spring Break to Spring Break to decimate Gen X.

Fair minded people on both the Left and Right agree that AIDS was developed Iran’s SAVAK, working under orders from Jimmy Carter.  It was supposed to be spread from chemtrails over The Heartland of the USA of America, until a gey scientist found it effective as an anal lubricant and that is how it continues to be spread to this day.  Obviously, heterosexualists don’t engage in bunghole erotocality, so the idea of non-gey AIDS is a LIEbral myth.

Get over it DEMONcraps, you lost the election so just move on.

“In other words, Jews, Muslims and perhaps other Christians should be willing to subordinate their religious beliefs to the established practice in the United States.  Which is, um, exactly what I said.”

Nope.  Christianity has not been known to be acquired by osmosis through binding leather.

Poetic Justice Break.  And they did it to themselves!

over at WingNut Daily, there’s an ad with alternating screens as the header.  The second one reads:
“Click here to see how you can flush 5-15 pounds of undigested waste from your colon”

Yep, it’s fair warning read further and you’re gonna need this product.

“HIV spread to housewives through their husbands, who visited prostitutes while working away from home.”

If you haven’t been to sub-Saharan Africa, you might be surprised by the standards of hygiene, chronic disease, and prevalence of open sores. .In sum, even supposing that the rates are accurate, your typical African starts out “immuno-compromised.”

Also, buggery is widespread among boys and men who do not self-identify as gay
.

his argument was that the swearing of oaths upon the KJV was the established practice in the United States, and that Jews, Muslims, and perhaps other Christians who prefer the Douay Rheims needn’t upset the established tradition by forcing an accomodation that isn’t warranted.  In other words, there are circumstances in which conformity to the established order should be observed for the sake of unity.

Sounds to me like he doesn’t take oaths very seriously.

“The object of the exercise was to allocate inordinate public health resources to the study of HIV/AIDS that would not otherwise have been so allocated because at there are diseases which affect many more Americans and for which contracting the disease is not as behaviorally dependant as it is with HIV/AIDS.”

You’re right. Contracting HIV is behaviourally dependent. You have to include “exercising sexual autonomy” as behaviour worthy of a death sentence, but hey.

But if HIV prevalence is behaviourally dependent, then wouldn’t it be a good idea to, oh, I don’t know, encourage people to practice safer behaviour?

“Again, your argument is that it was impossible for AIDS to spread to heterosexuals because it didn’t happen.  Please try to present an argument that doesn’t depend on your assumption that since it didn’t happen, it was impossible that it could ever happen, especially given the fact that it did happen in Africa, where it is primarily a heterosexual disease.”

Well, Americans would have had to adopt the somewhat “looser” sexual practices of the African subcontinent, abandoned modern medicine and hygiene, and engaged in buggery at never before seen rates. (Because of the tearing) Then, I suppose, it could have happened.

Nope.  Christianity has not been known to be acquired by osmosis through binding leather.

Interesting how your definition of “subordinate” is “converting someone to a new religion.” You’ve claimed that twice now.  At this point, I’m going to have to assume you have no idea what the word means so you’re desperately thrashing around hoping someone here will define it for you.

“But if HIV prevalence is behaviourally dependent, then wouldn’t it be a good idea to, oh, I don’t know, encourage people to practice safer behaviour?”

Capital notion!  I’ll get on the horn with the Commission of Fundie Godbags and request that they advocate monogamous heterosexual behavior, forthwith!

If you haven’t been to sub-Saharan Africa, you might be surprised by the standards of hygiene, chronic disease, and prevalence of open sores. .In sum, even supposing that the rates are accurate, your typical African starts out “immuno-compromised.”
Also, buggery is widespread among boys and men who do not self-identify as gay
.

I love how every public health researcher, infectious disease specialist, demographer, sociologist, anthropologist, etc etc etc who has ever studied the transmission of HIV in Africa is wrong, and the answer is OBVS just that Africans are a bunch of dirty faggots. 

Prop Due is one of my favorite trolls in a long time.

“Interesting how your definition of “subordinate” is “converting someone to a new religion.” You’ve claimed that twice now.  At this point, I’m going to have to assume you have no idea what the word means so you’re desperately thrashing around hoping someone here will define it for you.”

Zing! 

Subordinate would presume that Prager believes that Judaism is inferior, which he does not - he merely acknowledges the established order and tradition, and decides that the value of asserting that one is different is outweighed by the value of seeking unity through the tradition.  Kind of like how you take off for Christmas, even though Santa is evil or something. 

I wore a Yarmulke once at a Jewish wedding, and broke Challah at a Passover Seder.  I’m glad Jesus and the Pope didn’t see.

And for those of us who aren’t Fundie Godbags?

The message was never “shag everyone in sight, just use condoms.” The message was always “this is how HIV/AIDS is transmitted. Abstinence is the safest option. If you ARE going to have casual sex, proper use of a latex condom can significantly reduce the chance of transmission.”

Why not give all the information?

“OBVS just that Africans are a bunch of dirty faggots”

You’re so clever.  Really, you are. 

BTW, they’d punch you if you called them faggots.

“The message was never “shag everyone in sight, just use condoms.” The message was always “this is how HIV/AIDS is transmitted. Abstinence is the safest option. If you ARE going to have casual sex, proper use of a latex condom can significantly reduce the chance of transmission.”

Why not give all the information?”

Well, that just took no more than thirty seconds.  Problem solved.  I’m not sure what that would have cost the Federal gubmint, but I’m certain that they could have gotten it done for less than hundreds of millions.

“Prop Due is one of my favorite trolls in a long time.”

Nah, no humour. Doesn’t hold a candle to RIM.

“Christianity has not been known to be acquired by osmosis through binding leather.”

True, the Bible is just a meaningless symbol for a superstitious person. I guess you would also have no religious objection to art like Serrano’s “Piss Christ” or that elephant dung portrait of the Virgin Mary.

“Sounds to me like he doesn’t take oaths very seriously.”

Sounds to me like Propaganda Due feels the same way as Prager about oaths on the bible.

“he dithers about with the Torah and Shabbas and Mezzuzzahs and worhiping the God of Abraham, Issac and Joseph and such, instead of engaging in real, authentic Jewish activities like the New York Times crossword puzzle and active membership in the ACLU.”

Tell us more about what makes someone a real Jew. Your mention of the Pope indicates you’re Catholic, but don’t be afraid to share on that account.

Well, Americans would have had to adopt the somewhat “looser” sexual practices of the African subcontinent

AFAIK, while sexual habits are somewhat different, it probably all amounts to the same thing.  Married African men travel for work and have sex with prostitutes, then bring it home to their wives, who pass it on to their children.  Unmarried American young people travel for fun and spend the bulk of their teens and twenties shagging anything that will let them.  Lots of non-monogamous sex on both continents.

modern medicine

Not sure if you’ve heard about this, but modern medicine so far is not much help against HIV. 

and hygiene

Are you one of those morons who thinks you can get AIDS from toilet seats in public restrooms?  Because I know kind of a lot about HIV, and one thing I’m pretty sure of is that a generalized lack of hygiene is not a significant contributor to the spread of said virus (unless maybe you are a particularly careless vampire?). 

engaged in buggery at never before seen rates.

Yes, because straight Americans never, EVER have anal sex, EVER.  Never happens.  (Forget, for a moment, that there is a significant population of religious wingnuts who think of anal sex as their favorite form of birth control, and that you are still a virgin if you have anal sex.  And that a lot of them are the very same group who tend to believe that only gay people get HIV.)

Tell us more about what makes someone a real Jew.

Well… was your mother’s vagina Jewish? Yes? THEN YOU’RE A JEW.

</David Cross>

On a serious note, Judaism doesn’t let you leave. My grandparents went to synagogue from a sense of community rather than any belief, and because they thought going through the motions (even when they didn’t believe) would be good for their kids. My mother couldn’t face going through the motions with me and my brother. But we’ll be Jewish for the rest of our lives. Even if we became Neo-Nazis, we’d still be Jewish.

My cousin is from South Africa. When she was in high school, the myth was that having sex with a virgin would cure AIDS. Their biology teacher walked through how that was impossible, and hopefully it sunk in. But then my cousin told me “I don’t have to worry about it, because the AIDS is only in the black community.” My cousin is a moron. Aside from the assertion that she’d never sleep with one of the interchangeable mass of black people - all of whom are obviously HIV positive (yeah, I’m totally convinced that South Africa is integrated now. It’s the younger generation that gives me that hope), it only takes one interracial hookup and all the “totally safe” white kids who are running around having unprotected sex are now at risk. Stupid stupid racist cousin.

while sexual habits are somewhat different, it probably all amounts to the same thing.  Married African men travel for work and have sex with prostitutes, then bring it home to their wives, who pass it on to their children.

I spent a good deal of time in Africa in my younger years and was surprised by the approach to sex there (well, central Africa at least).  The general preference among men there is for “dry” sex, which requires a woman to wipe all lubrication from her vagina, creating the desired friction.  This technique is very destructive to condoms, causes abrasions in women (and sometimes men) and unfortunately, facilitates the spread of disease. 

I neither condone nor condemn this, but it is a factor.

You know, for my MA thesis, I wrote about American postwar conservatism and its uneasy, shall we say, relationship to science.  I’m thinking it’s time to dust that thing off of the shelf and expand on it.  People like Prager are just gold in terms of material.

Probably so.  But then we have something comparable - the mystique surrounding anal sex.

That was for Orange Tom, sorry.

Subordinate would presume that Prager believes that Judaism is inferior, which he does not - he merely acknowledges the established order and tradition, and decides that the value of asserting that one is different is outweighed by the value of seeking unity through the tradition.

In other words, he’s accepting that his religion takes second place to the established order and tradition.  Which makes it—guess what?—subordinate.  Funny how you keep bringing us right back to that word no matter how many different synonyms you use. 

How Prager feels about Judaism in his heart of hearts doesn’t enter into the equation at all.  Heck, he can feel that Judaism is morally superior to Christianity, but as long as he’s willing to accept the status of second-class citizen, clearly he thinks that Christianity is more important than Judaism.

Propaganda Due wrote:

broke Challah at a Passover Seder.

And we’re supposed to take your opinions about who is an authentic Jew seriously?

he Godbags already had the prevention angle covered, as in their aversion to sodomy and support for the Patriarchal institution of marriage.

Which is why all of the WWJD-encrusted youth are buttfucking to preserve their abstinent virginity until marriage.

Yep.

The established order and tradition are RELIGIOUS LIBERTY.  Rhode Island, founded on principles of tolerance of non-Puritan beliefs by Massachusetts Bay outcasts, refused to sign on to the constitution until they were certain about the religious freedom part, and directly assured by Washington himself that citizenship was not contingent on a particular creed or faith.

broke Challah at a Passover Seder.

And we’re supposed to take your opinions about who is an authentic Jew seriously?

This.

When I was doing HIV research for my novel, American Zen, I came across this startling statistic: Since 2002, 19.9 of the people who contracted HIV/AIDS were heterosexuals. That’s the fastest-growing demographic.

Matzoh matter with challah?

Make that 19.9%.

Touro Synagogue took on a special significance in 1790 when President George Washington, in his letter “To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport,” declared that the new nation would “… give to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance.” These few words affirmed the founding fathers’ commitment to the principals of religious freedom as a cornerstone of democracy in America.

- From the Touro Synagogue website.

“Matzoh matter with challah?”

Like you, he was just trying to inject some leavity into the mix.

I apologize to everyone else, but Ms Kate really deserved that.

“Matzoh matter with challah?”

Like you, he was just trying to inject some leavity into the mix.

Trying to inject levity with unleavened bread? that’s just silly.

***GROAN***

Just another day in Wing-nut-ville apparently… same ol’… same ol’

Gay man with HIV here (25 years and counting).

Thanks for sharing this post just as I am about to spend time with family members I only see once a year.

I sometimes prefer the days when people didn’t speak about AIDS in public.  (Dennis Prager- I should care because...?)

At this point in my life- I’ve already heard every sick, bigoted, ignorant belief and theory under the sun about this retrovirus.

It sucks.  Anyone can get it.  Everybody dies.

I hate to think what the past eight years has taught the “Obama generation” in the way of facts and sexual negotiating skills.  If we educated our youth properly-- like other advanced Western countries- flashbacks to the eighties like these wouldn’t have an effect on anyone.

I hate this country sometimes.  There.  I said it.  America is a sick and twisted country and always will be.

(and it’s not because of gay men).

Now let us give thanks for the all the people we’ve killed.

Enjoy your turkey.

oh propaganda. first you thought women owed you shit. then you decided ‘hipster’ was an awesome, catch-all ‘insult,’ which at best puts you in some sort of grandpa simpson category. now we see that you’re a passive-aggressive homophobe (buggery? really? how old ARE you?). good times, really.

oh and propaganda also thinks conformity is more important than principle. how unsurprising.

Progress!? Through science!!!!111!?? You go against the will of God! Which is, of course, to kill darkies on the dark continent because some of them are Muslims and animists and The Poor Will Always Be With Us, So Get Yours And Screw Em. Collective punishment for teh New Testament Justice! Except for the occasional whore who develops immunity. Jeebus needs his feet washed whilst he’s rapturing people. People, that is, not subhumans contaminated with Satan’s melanin.

Also, Propaganda can’t tell the difference between partaking of religious traditions in a religious ceremonial situation and standing by your own religion in a secular situation-- there will be no religious test to hold office in the US-- wherein the tradition to be honored is respect for diversity.

oh propaganda. first you thought women owed you shit. then you decided ‘hipster’ was an awesome, catch-all ‘insult,’ which at best puts you in some sort of grandpa simpson category. now we see that you’re a passive-aggressive homophobe.

Well, remember, those gay guys and “hipsters” kept attractive neighbourhood girls from giving up their “innies” to poor old Prop, even though he went to law school and bent over backwards to be a Nice Guy™

I’m still having fun with Prop back in the eHarmony thread. You put in a little light effort, and the bitter and frustrated little boy that Prop is burns through that law degree he holds up as a mask.

The “broke Challah at a Passover Seder” line was a bonus. It seems that authentic Jews have a lot in common with those mean ol’ “hipsters” for Prop. They probably came over from their lairs on the UWS and tempted away more local girls with their crafty ways.

Look out. Mikey Fumento is an inveterate self-googler with a long track record of trolling blog posts that mention in less than glowing terms. I mean, it’ll be funny, actually, just giving you a heads-up.

Interestingly, hetero HIV transmissions hit women harder than men and black people harder than white.  No wonder wingnuts think it’s a myth---it doesn’t hit many people who “count”, i.e. straight white men.

I have one quick observation, based on the fact that my wife is from Africa and I have zillions of in laws there.  (Literally-- zillions.  I can’t even remember the names of all my brothers and sisters in law). 
While this fact has been mentioned in other comments, I think we should highlight this fact-- in some parts of Africa, right now, the HIV infection rate is unbelievably high.  This rate cannot in any way be attributed to homosexuality, anal sex, whatever.  The vast majority of people in Africa who are infected got it because of standard penis in the vagina sex.  Anyone like this Prager person who can say it is a homosexual disease must be a version of a peculiarly American phenomenon—the American who cannot, deep in his or her heart, really believe the world beyond the US really exists.  This skepticism about the existence of the non-US parts of the Earth is the only explanation I can think of for a whole host of weird facts about this country, from the weird conversations one gets with people who are afraid to try universal health care because it “is too experimental and has never been tried” to our willingness to commit mass murder without a qualm as long as it is “over there.”

The notion that AIDS couldn’t be spread like crazy even among suburban housewives in America is wishful thinking.  It certainly is so among their equivalents in Africa, most of whom are much more sexually restrained that our “good” American women.  Suburban housewives should be kissing the feet of the much-maligned gay community for its willingness to come together and fight the problem when the rest of society abandoned them.  The widespread use of condoms and the development of effective HIV medications (which the right resisted, arguing that we shouldn’t save lives if the only one affected are gay, which was a lie from the get-go) kept the disease from doing in this country what happened in Africa.

The insinuations behind the hints that we didn’t need condoms and meds to keep “suburban housewives” from getting infected are racist to the core, implying that the entire continent of Africa is a dirty place populated with dirty people.  Wrong.  A lot of parts that have been devastated by the disease are even more patriarchal than we are, and it’s actually made it worse, not better.  All the patriarchal desires---young marriage, restrained women at home while men roam free, lack of access to birth control---increase the spread of the disease.  If we lived in Sarah Palin’s dream world, “suburban housewives” wouldn’t have a thick layer of people between them and HIV.

Propaganda’s misbelief that the entire and diverse continent of Africa has looser sexual practices than we do is a racist myth.  Many nations that have been devastated by HIV practice the sort of sexual restraint on women that people like Propaganda and our own fundies preach---virginity until marriage for women, preferably a marriage that’s fairly young.  Getting married raises a woman’s risk of HIV transmission in India and much of Africa.  If anything, feminism and our own “loose” sexual mores have helped us---because of feminism, women have more power.  And frankly, because of our tradition of premarital sex for women means that men visit prostitutes a lot less than they did when we had a different tradition.  If we had the sort of sexual mores preached by anti-feminists, we would have seen HIV gain ground in the straight community much faster.

I think I have to ban Propaganda for the “buggery” nonsense.  Pandagon is a place where right wingers are permitted to put forth their stupid ideas, but it’s also a safe space.  “Buggery” is a silly word, but in his mouth, it’s obvious to me that it’s hate speech against not just gay men, but any man who has experimented with anal with another man, and probably anyone who engages in anal sex ever.  What do you guys think?  Am I over-reacting to the term?

Amanda:

No.  I’ve been watching in the email comments for a bit, and Propaganda is an idiot, but he’s not even a funny idiot.  Ban his dumb ass.

It sucks.  Anyone can get it.  Everybody dies.

A neat little package of everything that the Wingnutteria fears most and most reminds us that we are, in fact, animals - sex and death!

That said, the idea that HIV is a gay disease is laughable.  It would have quickly become a straight disease of prostitutes and johns (read - wide swath of society) and swinging disco fuck it if it moves times if the globe-trotting flight attendant who brought it here had been straight.  An accident of history does not a generalization make.

In Africa, many women who have been counseled to save it for marriage and are ready to welcome children have found that their husbands have a present for them and their children: HIV!  You see, women can’t be the gatekeepers if the men are out sowing oats before, and often during, marriage.

Sorry, but it doesn’t work no matter how much Praeger, how much Propaganda, and how much wingnut magic thinking want it to work.

...Fumento...seems to argue that Africans really don’t have all the AIDS we say they have.

For the very first time in my life I want to see Stephen Lewis strangle somebody with his bare hands.

The CDC percentage for non-gay sex is for “high-risk heterosexual contact”, which is defined as sex with a person known to have HIV/AIDS or a risk factor for HIV/AIDS [e.g., MSM [gay male sex partners] or IDU [intra-venous drug use] ).

If a straight person sleeps with a person who doesn’t already have HIV, who doesn’t have gay male sex, and who doesn’t use IV drugs, the odds that that person will get HIV is so low that the CDC can’t detect it.

Obviously, you can’t know for sure whether the person you’re sleeping with has any of these factors.  But I don’t think it’s fair to say that 31% of new HIV cases are transmitted by “boring-ass plain old dude and lady sex.” If your partner has AIDS, or is a heroin addict, or is on the DL, yeah, you’re at risk.  Otherwise, no.  Most plain old dude and lady sex transmits no new cases at all.

What do you guys think?  Am I over-reacting to the term?

They still use the term in a lot of Commonwealth countries in a fairly neutral way. It’s a bit archaic and silly, but not a big deal in my opinion.

Of course, Prop is an all-American boy under the age of 60, so it’s likely not in common use in his circles. And he can’t get away with claiming it’s a legal term of art because “sodomy” or “pederasty” are the more common terms in the US. So I would agree that he’s using the term in a deliberately hateful way.

That said, if he’s gonna be banned, I’d vote to wait for him to drop an entire insanely bigoted statement on us all, or insulting someone directly with something a little more racist/sexist/homophobic/etc than “hipster.” He’s getting closer and closer, and we shouldn’t discount the entertainment value.

Anyhow, your site, your rules. Cool of you to ask, though.

Don’t forget the actual contributions of the fundiesphere to the HIV/AIDS problem in Africa. Between the Catholic church’s refusal to even mention birth control in its African aid efforts - even going so far as to censure nuns who go behind the church’s back and hand out condoms anyway - and the belief that a woman has a marital duty to satisfy her husband whenever he wants it, it’s no wonder that HIV is spreading among heterosexuals. Duty-bound to have sex with your husband, no matter where he’s been or who he’s been with, and unable to use or even ask to use a condom? You’re in trouble. Empowered to have sex on your own terms, prepared with readily-available protection? Your odds are much better.

If your partner has AIDS, or is a heroin addict, or is on the DL, yeah, you’re at risk.  Otherwise, no.

And you magically know this how??  You know your spouse isn’t stepping out with prostitutes, how?  Because your first name isn’t Silda?

Most plain old dude and lady sex transmits no new cases at all.

Well, you know, aside from the plain old dude and lady sex where one of the partners used to have a heroin problem but is in recovery, or maybe the other partner went through a phase where he experimented with bisexuality, but now considers himself heterosexual.  Having HIV doesn’t stop the minute you go into rehab, discover you really do like girls after all, or step out of the brothel. 

An example—at least half of my male sexual partners have had sex with a man before.  Mainly years ago, before I ever knew them.  All of them later identified as straight, too, and only talked with about their experiences with men in response to me being upfront about my own bisexuality.  God knows how many women sleep with bisexual guys without ever knowing they just engaged in “high risk sexual behaviors”.  Which is not to say that this is a bad thing, or bisexual men are the cause of hetero HIV, or whatever—just that this is a reason people should just use fucking condoms and stop worrying about what constitutes “high risk behavior”.

In Africa, many women who have been counseled to save it for marriage and are ready to welcome children have found that their husbands have a present for them and their children: HIV!  You see, women can’t be the gatekeepers if the men are out sowing oats before, and often during, marriage.

Ms. Kate, this is the whole problem with the abstinence-only fairy tale in a nutshell.  You can practice your “moral values” perfectly, but you have no control whatsoever over what your partner does. 

Ditto to ACG.  The so-called “pro-life” movement has caused untold death and misery on the planet.

If a straight person sleeps with a person who doesn’t already have HIV, who doesn’t have gay male sex, and who doesn’t use IV drugs, the odds that that person will get HIV is so low that the CDC can’t detect it.

Yes, because—and this was my point to Pseudo—the United States took strong public health measures in the 1980s to prevent AIDS from spreading into the general population.  They screened donated blood.  They encouraged anonymous testing.  They mailed a pamphlet to EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN AMERICA explaining what AIDS is and how to avoid catching it.  They didn’t act quickly enough to save the thousands of people who ended up infected, but they did act in time to save millions more.

The fact that AIDS did not spread to the general population because of the public health measures we took doesn’t mean that it automatically was impossible for it to have spread to the general population absent those public health measures.

It’s the difference between “It’s unlikely to happen today because it never spread to the general population due to measures taken 20 years ago” and “Heterosexual transmission is always unlikely and there’s no way it would have spread to the general population in the first place even if we did nothing about it.”

the Catholic church’s refusal to even mention birth control in its African aid efforts

In our 20th Century American tradition, as in the HIV/AIDS context, condoms are no longer birth control but “prophylactics”: For the Prevention of Disease Only. But if Catholics really followed church doctrine, and abstained from premarital and extramarital sex, their chance of getting HIV/AIDs would be quite small. The “birth control sin” is the same size as the “sex outside marriage sin,” so avoiding the one while practicing the other gives no advantage.

I remember reading a story some years ago about how Catholic “charities” were puncturing condoms in Africa to “prove” that they don’t work. Maybe snopes will tell me whether it’s true or not.

Hector B. is a perfect example of why conservatives make my head hurt. It is NOT TRUE that if you never have sex with anyone but your spouse, you are safe and god-happy. It simply isn’t.

Spouses cheat. I know, because I was married to a guy who cheated on me. Oh, and, by the way? I got HPV from a guy who flat-out raped me. This insane, insane, very insane idea that as long as yuo, personally, are a good person, you will be fine, so why even bother finding a cure for this disease because only bad people get it? just sends me straight for the Tylenol, because it gives me the worst headache.

Do conservatives really believe that only YOU can prevent AIDS contraction? (To paraphrase Smokey the Bear.) Or so they just not give a shit as long as they figure their non-existent wife/girlfriend can’t give it to them because, yeah, they don’t exist?

“For the very first time in my life I want to see Stephen Lewis strangle somebody with his bare hands.”

I would so totally do Stephen Lewis. My wife knows. She’s ok with it.

Pepito - Canada’s most famous sex educator, Sue Johanson was a nurse at a Catholic hospital and witnessed the puncturing of condoms. It’s a large part of why she became a sex educator.

Ellen, I said “if.” I realize that it might be a big if. Cheaters and especially rapists are not living the Catholic credo. I’m sorry your trust and yourself were violated. Refraining from rape, and being faithful to one partner, are possible and should be unremarkable.

Do conservatives really believe that only YOU can prevent AIDS contraction?

Sure - if we all live in hermetically sealed bubbles, we’re golden. Good luck with breathing.

What is it? , mature ladies,

If a straight person sleeps with a person who doesn’t already have HIV, who doesn’t have gay male sex, and who doesn’t use IV drugs, the odds that that person will get HIV is so low that the CDC can’t detect it.

Indeed.  And if a Native American breaths air in a community in which smallpox does not exist, they also have a very low chance of catching smallpox.

This does not make them immune once it starts spreading.

Your first predicate, that straight people do not sleep with people who do not already have HIV, is the problem.  They do.  They will.  Straight people can catch HIV.  Straight people do catch HIV.  The pool of straight people having sex with other straight people includes people with HIV.

And this is the important bit - it includes a growing number of straight people with HIV.

Me, I intend to wrap my willy for the foreseeable future.

Gracchus said

They still use the term in a lot of Commonwealth countries in a fairly neutral way. It’s a bit archaic and silly, but not a big deal in my opinion.

True, although more likely is the term “bugger!” as a mild(ish) swear word (you can say it at work, it’s used on prime time TV, etc). You might call someone a “silly bugger” if they were behaving in a stupid way (although this can also be used affectionately, similarly, I think, to the way the English use “wally"). You can also describe something or a situation as “buggered” meaning broken or screwed up. “Why don’t you lock the door?, Can’t. The lock’s buggered").

Prop was not using “buggery” in any of these ways. He was trying to be offensive as there are less offensive ways of referring to anal sex (that being one of them).

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i vote to leave propaganda around a bit longer, give him more time to seriously implode. i think he’s got a more spectacular crash and burn in him yet.

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Swell.  Just when we’d thrashed upskirt porn to death, Amanda’s new topic list comes up for discussion.

“It certainly is so among their equivalents in Africa, most of whom are much more sexually restrained that our “good” American women. “

The ironic part is that one of the reasons why AIDS has spread so quickly in Africa is because most of their women are so sexually restrained.

For example, when an American man wants a little extramartial action, there are no shortage of “slutty” American women to get it from. However, when an African man wants the same thing, his choices are limited to a small number of prostitutes.

When you have a large number of men having sex with a small number of women, this is a very efficient way for diseases to get transmitted. The prostitute is very likely to be infected and to infect. On the other hand, when you have a large number of men having sex with a large number of women, it is less likely that any given partner will be infected. Even very “slutty” women are probably having sex with fewer partners than the African prostitute. (and are more likely to be having safer sex when they do)

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There are other confounding factors with regards to the heterosexual transmissibility of AIDS in Africa.  Other STIs (e.g.: syphillis, gonorrhea), also more prevalent due to the less-developed public health infrastructure, often serve to facilitate transmission.  Schistosomiasis ("snail fever"), which is endemic in the developing world (including Africa), is being studied for association with damage to the vaginal lining that likewise can promote transmissibility.  Other diseases (such as malaria), malnutrition, and the like, can all work to compromise the immune system.

A study by researchers at the Veterans Administration this past summer demonstrated that the absence of a specific red blood cell antigen protein (The Duffy antigen) is associated with a 40% increase in the risk of HIV infection, but also a slower progression of the infection.  About 90% of Africans, and about 60% of African-Americans, lack the antigen, due to a mutation that provided protection against a certain strain of malaria (nearly all Caucasians have the antigen).  There is an article on the study here.

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