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Don’t laugh off the conspiracy theories too quickly

I’ll admit, reading about yesterday’s press conference was funny, a press conference where a flock of right wing nutjobs spun one crazy theory after another in an attempt to get someone to say, “Ah yes, that’s it.  That’s why Barack Obama is ineligible to be President.  We all had a ‘feeling’—-totally unrelated to race, of course—-but we just needed the smoking gun.”  It was a press conference where it was suggested that Obama was born in both Kenya and Indonesia and that his mother is actually alive somewhere.  Fears of miscegenation were trotted out.  Circus music played in the background.  (Kidding!)  Even the biggest wackaloons in the right wing media distanced themselves, which might lead one to think that we have nothing to worry about when it comes to the paranoid right this time around.

Well, we’d be wrong.  First of all, I’m immediately alarmed by the fact that most of the people in the audience were true believers, and some had access to media.  Also, one of the ringleaders is Bob Schultz, who has enough money to buy full page ads to promote his theories.  If he sticks to that method, we’ll probably be good. But should he start plugging into the direct mail system, we have a massive problem.  And even if it’s not Schultz, it’ll be someone.  And even if it’s not this conspiracy theory, it will be another.  In the long run, history teaches us that the exact content of the right wing conspiracy theories is largely irrelevant.  What matters is their reach.

I firmly believe that conspiracy theories about Vince Foster, Whitewater, the Clintons’ sex pacts, and whatever other nutty shit the hard right believed about Clinton led directly to the impeachment.  It took 6 years of rounds of direct mailings and videos (including one distributed by Jerry Falwell) that grew increasingly paranoid and frantic, but it worked.  The squawking, the rumor-mongering, and the paranoia led large numbers of people to start believing that with this much smoke, there had to be fire, and eventually the Republicans who were elected in part by the paranoid right decided to go fishing.  It didn’t matter that what they eventually came up with had little to no relationship with the original conspiracy theories.  It didn’t even matter that the tawdry details of the affair disproved the right wing belief that the Clintons are a couple of scheming, sophisticated Lotharios, instead demonstrating that if anything, Bill Clinton is a bumbler with poor impulse control around seductive women.  What mattered was that the swirl of nonsense theories gave license to a lot of—-most?—-bitter Republicans to really, truly believe that a Democrat in office is there illegitimately, and therefore, any means necessary to get them out is justified.  They didn’t successfully kick Clinton out of office, but the momentum of justification for any means necessary did in fact lead directly to Bush stealing the election, with the help of hyperventilating fascist mobs that flew down to Florida to threaten people trying to count votes.

In other words, we should take this shit extremely seriously, especially since race has entered the equation, giving the loons even more reason to feel that Obama just can’t be a legitimate President, and therefore that any means necessary of getting him out should be taken.  But this is about more than just seeing Democratic politicians as illegitimate.  I think these theories proliferate because the right wing doesn’t believe that people who vote for Democrats are legitimate, either.  It’s pretty obvious, in fact, that this is what they believe, between “jokes” about how women shouldn’t have the right to vote and more serious pontificating about how they’d totally win if this group or that didn’t vote.  Certainly the rush of people at polls in swing states to “challenge” voters feel justified in using intimidation against certain groups of people.  They wouldn’t feel this way if they hadn’t convinced themselves that these people’s right to vote is illegitimate.  And of course, the language about how liberals hate America or are un-American is all aimed at establishing this narrative, that we only get to vote because someone screwed up in the past, and they have to rectify that mistake, by any means necessary.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:22 PM • (72) Comments

Spot on.  The noise machine feeds on rumors the feel true to the believers, and the connection to reality is of secondary importance.  Undermining it is hard because the facts are not the issue, it’s the emotions.  I think it’s worth attacking on the fact front because we do not need to destroy the machine, just peel away some of the less committed people on the margins.  Those folks include persuadable people who can be turned off by seeing the bloviators exposed as outright liars.

Comment #1: togolosh  on  12/09  at  12:41 PM

You’re forgetting one other thing that helped push the anti-Clinton craziness into the mainstream—the fact that there was no left-wing noise machine to push back against the right-wing noise machine.  In other words, fifteen years ago there were no Amanda Marcottes around to keep pointing out just how crazy the crazies were.

That’s why I’m not as worried about this stuff as you are.

Comment #2: Johnny Pez  on  12/09  at  12:42 PM

I suspect that PUMAs are going to be a key element in this session’s Hunting of the President.

You know, the usual white women in danger strategem gussied up for the 20th century.

Comment #3: shah8  on  12/09  at  12:43 PM

A good watch - “Penn and Teller: BULLSHIT! Conspiracy Theories”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAXN0YKBMMQ
(parts 2 and 3 are on the right side bar)

Comment #4: pro-life atheist  on  12/09  at  12:51 PM

I know I’ve mentioned this in comments before, but I can’t get over how precise The Paranoid Style in American Politics was in diagnosing this kind of behavior. It should be required reading in high school and college.

Comment #5: J.V.  on  12/09  at  01:01 PM

The problem with conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is that any argument you make against their theory only strengthens their belief in it.  Think about all of the people who still insist that the Holocaust never happened even though the Nazis documented every step of it.  You’d think that the fact that we have the blueprints for the gas chambers would give them pause, but nope.  Michael Shermer has written several good books about this phenomenon, including Why People Believe Weird Things.

Not that it will make any difference, but I’ve started making a list of all of the agencies that would need to be in on a conspiracy to fake Obama’s citizenship.  So far, it’s the State of Hawaii, the State Department, the Social Security Administration, the federal financial aid office (at least six times since you have to re-apply for financial aid every year), both the Illinois and the federal elections boards, Columbia University and Harvard University.  Depending on when they started requiring a birth certificate, the Illinois DMV may be in on it too.

Comment #6: Mnemosyne  on  12/09  at  01:06 PM

Mnemosyne:

How true. What has always struck me about most conspiracy theories is that they hinge on large numbers of people keeping a secret - and to be more precise, large numbers of people keeping a secret who are not being paid to keep a secret, a la the CIA or such. Anyone who has actually dealt with human beings knows that the level of secret-keeping required for Obama to not in fact be eligible for the presidency is, to say the least, implausible.

Which leads to an obvious conclusions about conspiracy nuts….

Comment #7: Theron  on  12/09  at  01:15 PM

Maybe I’m naive, but I just don’t see this being something to worry about. I live and work with Republicans, and almost every one to a man jack of them thinks that this meme is stupid. Like, hit-on-the-head-with-a-brick stupid. And there’s been a LOT of “the election is over, let’s get on with it” attitude around here that I find very admirable and astute. They aren’t happy that McCain lost (or ARE they?? Hmm.) but they aren’t latching onto this nonsense about eligibility, stolen elections, ACORN, whatever. Of course, I work with “middle-class” people who are desparately worried about their 401K and house value, so they’ve got better things to worry about (and maybe secretly think that Obama is the best person to fix these things). I’m proud of them.

Comment #8: Ellen  on  12/09  at  01:15 PM

It took 6 years of rounds of direct mailings and videos (including one distributed by Jerry Falwell) that grew increasingly paranoid and frantic, but it worked.

Chris Hedges noted that it only took four years of hardcore propaganda in the Balkans to convince the Serbs, Croats and Muslims that they were really three groups who had hated each other for centuries, so I share your fear. Johnny Pez is correct that we now have a mechanism that can push back against talk radio fairly effectively, and I think we’re helped a bit by the economic crisis—people are sweating their jobs too badly to worry about conspiracy theories. But that could change rapidly.

Comment #9: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  12/09  at  01:19 PM

Crazy shit is going on right now.  IL Gov Blagojevich was arrested at 6 this morning on federal corruption charges.  Why is this relevent?

Because Rod is in charge of replacing Obama’s Senate Seat.  He apparently, according to the complaint, demanded to be Secretary of Health and Human Services in exchange for appointing his choice to take over that seat. 

I’m pissed, b/c I was one of the 13%ers who liked Rod—he ran on providing healthcare to all the kids in IL and free preschool to all 3 & 4 y/os.  His opponent said that we couldn’t afford to do that and ran on cutting healthcare to children.  When Senate President Madigan blocked Rod’s funding mechanism (raise corporate taxes) Rod rammed those policies through anyway.  There’s been a huge fight b/c the state budget is a mess b/c Rod provided the services without the increased funding.  But Rod did what he promised in his campaign, which is why we voted for him.

So, I’ve been on the underdog’s side, but, damn, these charges are amazing.

And worst of all, they will taint Obama’s presidency b/c his Senate seat is involved.  No matter what the facts are, the wingnuts will spin this as Obama being just as corrupt as the crony who was trying to get a Cabinet position.  Or an Ambassadorship.  Or be a Union President.  It’s still messy and I haven’t read the whole complaint, but there’s no way Wingnuttia will not use this to try to harm Barry.

Comment #10: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/09  at  01:23 PM

Amanda, you’ve pointed out before the posts from Fred at Slacktivist, where he makes the critical point that conspiracy theorists SHOULD be happy to hear evidence that disproves their theory, and they SAY they’re happy to hear evidence that disproves their theory, but they never are. Nothing satisfies them, ever.

Whether it’s racial or partisan, there is a hard core that will never, ever believe that Barack Obama should be, will be or is president.

Comment #11: Rick Massimo  on  12/09  at  01:29 PM

By the way, that picture of Obama is the cutest, most All-American Boy picture ever.

Mnemo, add University of Chicago, since Obama was a professor there (Senior Lecturer, which is the same position on a non-tenure track).  Although anything from Illinois is going to be considered criminal now. rolleyes 

Stupid Blago.

Comment #12: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/09  at  01:30 PM

The accumulated wealth of the last eight years shall finance centuries of neoconservative political machines. Take it seriously.

Comment #13: tpx  on  12/09  at  01:30 PM

Blagojevich is such a damned numbskull. What the fuck was he thinking, anyhow? That the FBI was just kidding?

Anyhow, I absolutely agree with the subject of this post… these conspiracy psychos are going to be a force to be reckoned with. Obama can hopefully defeat them, but we should not underestimate their power to corrode Obama’s image.

Comment #14: atheist  on  12/09  at  04:05 PM

Mnemosyne:
The problem with conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is that any argument you make against their theory only strengthens their belief in it.

Yes, the fundamental difference between suspicion of an actual conspiracy and a conspiracy theory is that a conspiracy theory continually expands to account for any evidence that seems to disprove it.

Which unfortunately makes it fit in quite well with the rest of wingnut logic, since the skill needed to retain any paid wingnut welfare job is to be able to start from the correct conservative conclusions and work backwards to find evidence that supports it.

Comment #15: Redshift  on  12/09  at  04:25 PM

Johnny Pez:
In other words, fifteen years ago there were no Amanda Marcottes around to keep pointing out just how crazy the crazies were.

I think that’s what she means by “we should take this shit extremely seriously.” I agree that things will be different this time if there’s pushback, but that “left-wing noise machine” is us. And we’ve got a lot of fresh-faced newcomers who aren’t old enough to remember what really happened in the Clinton years, who need to be reminded that while it might seem that “that’s so crazy nobody would actually believe it,” there is nothing that can be safely ignored.

Comment #16: Redshift  on  12/09  at  04:33 PM

Few got so fussy with Bush, even after years of critics’ reciting (true) examples of his evil and ineptitude. I’m dismayed.

Comment #17: Luke  on  12/09  at  04:34 PM

Johnny Pez:

That’s why I’m not as worried about this stuff as you are.

Look, just because the American Right has privatized their propaganda machine and has learned not to openly use the word “propaganda” in its self-labeling doesn’t make it any less powerful, dangerous or destructive than what any other totalitarian movement has used from time immemorial to keep its adherents living in fear and beholden to the idea of absolute dictatorship.

The proper response to openly fascist propagandizing is not “oh, it’s just a harmless lark.”

Comment #18: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  12/09  at  04:34 PM

Well, at least among the sane and those who can be made to be sane, it is unlikely that an “Obama is involved!” storyline will work in light of wiretaps which have this sort of information:

A key tidbit from the DOJ statement on Gov. Blagojevich’s attempt “to sell or trade” Obama’s vacant senate seat: Blago thought the Obama team was “not willing to give me anything except appreciation” for tapping their preferred candidate. “[Expletive] them,” Blago said.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Comment #19: seeker6079  on  12/09  at  04:37 PM

Reputable websites all over the website net are reporting that DEMONcraps have used Roswell time-travel technology to obliterate all signs of Obama’s Kenyan/Indonesian birth (he was born in both places simultaneously, again, thanks to secrets stolen from Area 51) and to insert fraudulent birth notices in the Hawaiian papers in order to mislead the nation.  Due to the usage of illegal alien technology that was not sanctioned by the current Republican administration, I’m calling on the Electoral College to refuse to vote for Obama and instead, to install Mister Richard Dick Cheney as the President of the USA of America.

Comment #20: Rugged in Montana  on  12/09  at  04:38 PM

Interesting how the hardcore rightwingers are not only distancing themselves from this clusterfuck, but now shouting to the rooftops that it has to stop NOW! Horowitz writes: Shut up about the birth certificate!

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  12/09  at  04:39 PM

IL Gov Blagojevich was arrested at 6 this morning on federal corruption charges.  Why is this relevent?

Good question, considering what Blagojevich was caught on tape saying about Obama (quote fropm affidavit filed by the prosecutor):

ROD BLAGOJEVICH said he knowsthat the President-elect wants Senate Candidate 1 for the Senate seat but “they’re not willing to give me anything except appreciation. Fuck them.”

Doesn’t sound very damaging to Obama to me . . .

Comment #22: rea  on  12/09  at  04:40 PM

But ... butt ... but ... he said “Obama”.  See!  Corruption already!

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  12/09  at  04:52 PM

“Doesn’t sound very damaging to Obama to me . . .”

By the time Limbaugh, Malkin, and the other wingnut blowhards get done with it, I would bet the same people who (still) think Saddam was behind 9/11 will believe this proves how evil and corrupt Obama is. 

All we need is a sexual angle and it’s off to the (impeachment) races…

Comment #24: MikeEss  on  12/09  at  04:52 PM

“Fuck them?” What, *both* of them? Are the Obamas already setting up some sort of naughty Clinton-esque White House threesome/orgy?? WHAT DID THE OBAMAS PROMISE THIS MAN IN EXCHANGE FOR POWER!!?? Clearly Barack is already using teh power of his sexxy FOR EVIL!!!1one!

...There’s the sexual angle for ya. You’re welcome. :D

Comment #25: Bagelsan  on  12/09  at  05:05 PM

Mnemo, add University of Chicago, since Obama was a professor there (Senior Lecturer, which is the same position on a non-tenure track).

And add Occidental College, the institution Obama attended before transferring and graduating from Columbia College/University. 

Never knew someone who was a hardworking scholarship student could command such power to get several higher-ed and state/federal agencies to all work secretly on his behalf.  LOL

Earth to right-wing conspiracy nuts….reality does not roll that way…..

Comment #26: exholt  on  12/09  at  05:26 PM

What happens when large numbers of people don’t believe that the president is entitled to be president?

(Seven months of kvetching and then a terrorist attack, apparently, but that’s not quite what I meant)

Comment #27: Hershele Ostropoler  on  12/09  at  05:34 PM

HO:

What happens when large numbers of people don’t believe that the president is entitled to be president?

(Seven months of kvetching and then a terrorist attack, apparently, but that’s not quite what I meant)

It’s not that we thought Bush wasn’t entitled to be president. It’s that we thought he wasn’t elected president. There’s a difference.

Comment #28: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  12/09  at  05:42 PM

Anyone who has actually dealt with human beings knows that the level of secret-keeping required for Obama to not in fact be eligible for the presidency is, to say the least, implausible.

This is the central flaw in the “9/11 was an inside job” / “Moon Landing was a farce” / “Everyone and his kid brother conspired to kill JFK” theories as well.  It assumes the listener is practically the only person NOT in the loop.  Dozens or hundreds of people are tasked in covering up relatively minor details that could have / should have been exposed dozens of times over.

Probably the biggest evidence we’ve got that Obama IS eligible for the Office is the fact that Hillary never brought it up.  Because, seriously, if you’re going to smear a man for three weeks over a casual acquaintance with a former 60s radical but NOT touch something like this, you’re not even trying to win anymore.

Comment #29: Zifnab25  on  12/09  at  06:14 PM

I don’t know, I’m always way too naive about this stuff (I remember when the Abu Ghraib photos came out I was like, well, that’s it, it’s all over for the Bush Admin, this is going to bring them DOWN….), but I do think one of the really really really great things about the Obama election is for the first time in recent memory the racist wackos *didn’t* get their worldview confirmed.  They’ve always relied on that whispery sense that while everyone may pretend to not be sexist, racist, filled with loathing for their fellow human beings, SECRETLY everyone is just like them and so peddling fake stories is okay because they are down with the real, underlying narrative of life in America anyway.  They don’t have that security anymore.  I think it’s gonna make a real difference (but, again, I’ve got a bad track record with these good feelings….)

Comment #30: Kathleen  on  12/09  at  06:15 PM

I still think it’s paranoia.

Remember when Bush was totally going to shut down the elections and declare a state of emergency and refuse to step down? Yeah, that totally happened.

I live in right-wing central and the whole Vince Foster thing never took down here. It was just stupid. And the Obama-isn’t-an-American thing isn’t taking either. IMHO, Clinton was impeached because Americans have decided that Sex is the worst thing that anyone, ever, can ever do. Period. (That’s also why we make terrible movies, but I digress.)

As long as Obama does a good job governing and doesn’t accept any sexual favors from interns, he should be fine.

(And, seriously, if the “furner” thing was going to stick, it would have stuck before the election. Not now. People who didn’t believe it then aren’t going to suddenly believe it now - if only because that would mean they were WRONG. And cognitive dissonance. I’m just sayin’.)

Comment #31: Ellen  on  12/09  at  06:21 PM

Reputable websites all over the website net are reporting that DEMONcraps have used Roswell time-travel technology to obliterate all signs of Obama’s Kenyan/Indonesian birth (he was born in both places simultaneously, again, thanks to secrets stolen from Area 51)

Sounds painful for his mother…

Comment #32: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/09  at  06:26 PM

Well, at least among the sane and those who can be made to be sane, it is unlikely that an “Obama is involved!” storyline will work in light of wiretaps which have this sort of information:

Why do people think that Obama and Rahm Emmanuel didn’t clue Fitzgerald on this in the first place? That indictment came AWFULLY quickly after the events they sprang from…

Comment #33: gwangung  on  12/09  at  06:27 PM

blockquote>Probably the biggest evidence we’ve got that Obama IS eligible for the Office is the fact that Hillary never brought it up.  Because, seriously, if you’re going to smear a man for three weeks over a casual acquaintance with a former 60s radical but NOT touch something like this, you’re not even trying to win anymore. </blockquote>

Not only that but it was someone doing oppo research for Clinton that found the birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser and it was in a list of birth announcements from a hospital.

Really, people try to argue with the wingnuts over in Salon and the wingnuts show the true test of insanity. They keep making the same argument over and over and over, no matter how someone tries to rationally explain to them the facts that refute their luniness.

Comment #34: lou  on  12/09  at  06:35 PM

Really, people try to argue with the wingnuts over in Salon and the wingnuts show the true test of insanity. They keep making the same argument over and over and over, no matter how someone tries to rationally explain to them the facts that refute their luniness.

Generally, it’s like arguing with creationists. They’ll never be convinced, but the display is for the onlookers. And while you treat the wingnut with respect, you give the arguments all the derision, mocking and satire they can take (while still arguing strongly). You’ll win far more people over if you demolish arguments with flair and panache.

Comment #35: gwangung  on  12/09  at  06:42 PM

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories myself. It’s just some group that comes together in a room somewhere and makes them all up.

Comment #36: Childe O' Grace  on  12/09  at  06:50 PM

Few got so fussy with Bush, even after years of critics’ reciting (true) examples of his evil and ineptitude. I’m dismayed.

Yeah, but see, all that stuff is factual, and consequently that much less enchanting to the kind of people who like fables.  What cripples the rakers of legitimate muck is that there are so many prospective muck-customers who actually prefer fake muck.  Fake muck has a flavor of the fabulous, even of the esoteric, that some people like; facts bore them; attempts to debunk their favorite campfire stories remind them of the end of summer vacation.  Reports devoid of made-up crap are like a year without Santa Claus.  Naturally they tune those out.

You know, many of these fictions about Obama would be really great stories if only there were any foundation to them.  Some of them are such great stories, in fact (the one that says Obama is Malcolm X’s Secret Son is my favorite) that no amount of disproof is going to prevent people from repeating them, because they’re just that entertaining.  I’m not really sure what those of us who are about equally interested in information and diversion can do to counter the advantage wingnuts have on the diversion front, except try to write a lot better than they do, but I’m not totally convinced that will work.

Comment #37: bekabot  on  12/09  at  07:16 PM

Conspiracy theorists will continue to believe in their theories no matter how much evidence you present to them.  I have a friend with FULL BLOWN AIDS (not just HIV), who is and has always been an all-out AIDS Denier.  And yet he still takes the ARV’s, guess he’s hedging his bets.

Comment #38: Jane  on  12/09  at  07:19 PM

“Nobody ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”

Comment #39: atheist  on  12/09  at  07:21 PM

“Nobody ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”

Eh, that’s why we were predicting McCain would win.

Or it would at least be SUPER close. Not a blow-out. Oh no. Because Americans are corknuts.

I for one, am happy that I was wrong. smile

Comment #40: Ellen  on  12/09  at  07:27 PM

IMHO, Clinton was impeached because Americans have decided that Sex is the worst thing that anyone, ever, can ever do. Period.

Don’t forget, Clinton’s approval ratings were high through the impeachment and went higher the longer it dragged out.  That’s one of the reasons he was found not guilty—even the Republicans who pushed for it were aware that the vast majority of the American people did not want Clinton thrown out of office over a blowjob and they backed down.

Comment #41: Mnemosyne  on  12/09  at  07:27 PM

I’m always way too naive about this stuff (I remember when the Abu Ghraib photos came out I was like, well, that’s it, it’s all over for the Bush Admin, this is going to bring them DOWN….)

Yeah, I consider myself a cynic and misanthropist, but even I thought Kerry was going to win.

Comment #42: keshmeshi  on  12/09  at  07:40 PM

First of all, I’m immediately alarmed by the fact that most of the people in the audience were true believers, and some had access to media.

Why be surprised? The wackadoodle wing of the conservative movement has been coddled, enabled and empowered by the GOP since the Clinton impeachment. They get fed their manna on a daily basis by Rush and O’Reilly and Michael Savage. They may look crazy to us but in their little world, we’re the crazy ones.

This is the 28%, people. These are the Bush-lovers, the Sarah Palins and Monica Goodlings and Lurita Doans. They’re never going away. All we can do is show the rest of the world how crazy they are, and people won’t want to associate with them.

Let them file their lawsuits and rail about how ” “there’s never been a black womb that produced a president…” Allow the crazy to roam free and unfettered across the land; I have faith in Obama’s ability to lead as president, and when given the choice between crazy and competent, I think a recession and war challenged America will choose competent.

These folks may have a mailing list and a microphone but they lack sanity in their message.

Comment #43: Southern Beale  on  12/09  at  07:45 PM

Mnemosyne, exactly my take, as well. Everyone here seemed to feel that the BJ needed SOME kind of reprimand, and - why not? - an impeachment would do the trick, but once he admitted it and said he was awfully sorry, everyone was satisfied and ready to move on. Because a symbolic victory is good, and less messy than an actual removal of a president who can get the job done.

Comment #44: Ellen  on  12/09  at  07:45 PM

Why do people think that Obama and Rahm Emmanuel didn’t clue Fitzgerald on this in the first place? That indictment came AWFULLY quickly after the events they sprang from…

That arrest came awfully quickly after Blago was an ass on TV and claimed he had nothing but sunny days ahead.

You simply do not dare Patrick Fitzgerald.  He *IS* a real Untouchable Eliot Ness.  He just made sure that Blago doesn’t get to pick Obama’s successor.

I think Obama wanted Valerie Jarrett to take his seat.  After talking to Blago, he just made her a senior advisor and got far away from Blago and his impending doom.  Obama knows he can’t have even a taint of corruption around him.

Stupid Blago.

Comment #45: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/09  at  08:39 PM

Really, Amanda look who’s talking.  Between the “Truthers” and this sort of thing: http://bojack.org/2008/12/sarah_palins_fake_pregnancy_be.html it’s pretty funny to see the left complaining about conspiracy theories.  Looks like the right, the left and maybe even the libertarians have their redheaded stepchildren, don’t they?  Their lunatic fringe?  Which one is the media most sympathetic towards do you think?  Don’t answer; I was just checking in on an old NOW/Shethinks crone and seeing that the more things change, the more they stay the same.  {rolly-eyes}

Comment #46: Anniee  on  12/09  at  09:17 PM

Bill Clinton is a bumbler with poor impulse control around seductive women

The late great Molly Ivins told us, before the 1992 election IIRC, that the movers and shakers in national Democratic politics knew that Bill “had a trousers problem”.

Comment #47: jackd  on  12/09  at  09:27 PM

Really, Amanda look who’s talking.  Between the “Truthers” and this sort of thing…it’s pretty funny to see the left complaining about conspiracy theories.

Where the fuck do you think you are?

And whose redheaded stepchildren brought the country to a screeching halt ten years ago and are poised to do it again? It isn’t Truthers, I’ll tell you that right now.

Comment #48: Auguste  on  12/09  at  10:07 PM

A white knight?  That’s kind of cute.  And necessary I would think.  Don’t panic, Auggie, I know Amanda of old and this isn’t some invasion.

Comment #49: Anniee  on  12/09  at  10:15 PM

A white knight?  That’s kind of cute.  And necessary I would think.  Don’t panic, Auggie, I know Amanda of old and this isn’t some invasion.

I don’t care who you know and who you don’t. This is about your accusations that Pandagon - not just Amanda, but this blog as a whole - lacks some sort of moral authority to expose conspiracy theorists.

Comment #50: Auguste  on  12/09  at  10:18 PM

Really, Amanda look who’s talking.

I think you’re speaking for yourself, only.

You sound a bit desperate, casting for examples to fit your narrative.

Comment #51: gwangung  on  12/09  at  10:28 PM

Anniee, can you come up with something NOT plagerized from a recent Malking column (except that you can’t even manage to notice the bit where she lays into the Tin Foil Hat Birth Certificate crowd ...)

Comment #52: Ms Kate  on  12/09  at  10:45 PM

Between the “Truthers” and this sort of thing: http://bojack.org/2008/12/sarah_palins_fake_pregnancy_be.html it’s pretty funny to see the left complaining about conspiracy theories.

I don’t think Andrew Sullivan considers himself a liberal even though he hates George Bush, and he’s the biggest promulgator of the stupid Palin stories.

Not to mention that the Truthers run the gamut.  You have a few on the left, a few on the right, and most in the middle.

Comment #53: Mnemosyne  on  12/09  at  10:48 PM

I think Amanda is half-wrong. We should laugh these people off, but we should do it in public, loudly and repeatedly. We should take the threat they pose seriously, but not them.  We should push back in the public and private discourse until giving credence to one of these theories is like publicly announcing that you believe in the Easter Bunny.

(And Horowitz calling for the nuttery to stop is a sign that this is already happening.)

Comment #54: paul  on  12/09  at  10:54 PM

And Malkin too ... she’s had it with these nutters ... like, maybe she knows this shit gets turned against all racial minority natural born citizen children of immigrants eventually?

Comment #55: Ms Kate  on  12/09  at  10:57 PM

Anniee, how about you shut up while the adults are talking, hmm?

Comment #56: Damian  on  12/09  at  10:59 PM

Ms Kate I don’t read Malkin, those were just two obvious examples.  Mnemosyne, I’m not sure how you define center, but that’s a new claim to me.  I didn’t know it was possible to be anything but far left or just simply insane to embrace such a ridiculous meme. 

Moral authority auguste?  Hehe - well I don’t think anything could get funnier than that, so thanks and adieu.

Comment #57: Anniee  on  12/10  at  01:07 AM

Um, Anniee ... explain Phillip Berg then?  He’s one of the Premier Platinum Class Troofers AND ... well, read the papers dear.

Not.Far.Left.

Comment #58: Ms Kate  on  12/10  at  01:19 AM

Mnemosyne, I’m not sure how you define center, but that’s a new claim to me.  I didn’t know it was possible to be anything but far left or just simply insane to embrace such a ridiculous meme.

And yet lifelong conservative Andrew Sullivan is the one who kept it alive.

Though the “Sarah is not Trig’s real mother!” conspiracy theory at least had a veneer of plausibility—it wouldn’t be the first time that a grandmother secretly raised her grandchild as her own child.  Jack Nicholson didn’t find out that his “sister” was really his mother (and his “mother” was really his grandmother) until he was an adult.  Frankly, it wouldn’t even be that scandalous if it turned out to be true, just weirdly retro.

Not so with the notion that Obama was secretly born in Kenya, smuggled into the country, and has been using a fake birth certificate for the past almost-50 years that has fooled every single government agency and employer he’s ever come in contact with.

Comment #59: Mnemosyne  on  12/10  at  01:25 AM

And why would Obama’s mama do it? So he could run for president as Barack Hussein Obama? Are you shitting me?

Comment #60: Erl  on  12/10  at  01:37 AM

Ms Kate I don’t read Malkin, those were just two obvious examples.  Mnemosyne, I’m not sure how you define center, but that’s a new claim to me.  I didn’t know it was possible to be anything but far left or just simply insane to embrace such a ridiculous meme.

Well, you live and you learn.

Reading widely is quite helpful.

Comment #61: gwangung  on  12/10  at  02:32 AM

I think it’s fair to say there are nutter-conspiracy-theorists on the far-left as well as the far-right, but I’ve yet to see those on the far-left have any impact the way Amanda - quite accurately - argues the far-right eventually did on Clinton.

I know some people have already started to answer this question, but I’m hoping we/Amanda can flesh out a little more what “taking this seriously” means in practice. True Believers tend to be indefatigable; I’m not sure I have the time or energy to refute these nutjobs again and again and again ad infinitum.

Lastly:

I know this was a throw-away line and is completely tangential to Amanda’s point, but I’m not sure “Bill Clinton is a bumbler with poor impulse control around seductive women” is a great way to frame that situation. No, it wasn’t impeachment-worthy, but it also wasn’t “poor man couldn’t help himself in the face of boobies” and there *was* a power-dynamic.

Comment #62: Andrew  on  12/10  at  03:16 AM

I know this was a throw-away line and is completely tangential to Amanda’s point, but I’m not sure “Bill Clinton is a bumbler with poor impulse control around seductive women” is a great way to frame that situation. No, it wasn’t impeachment-worthy, but it also wasn’t “poor man couldn’t help himself in the face of boobies” and there *was* a power-dynamic.

I dunno, that line came across to me less as “the poor dear couldn’t help himself” and more “why couldn’t the stupid sonovabitch have kept his pants zipped?”

Comment #63: Mnemosyne  on  12/10  at  03:40 AM

Jack Nicholson didn’t find out that his “sister” was really his mother (and his “mother” was really his grandmother) until he was an adult.

For some reason I had never realized that Chinatown was a documentary.

Comment #64: Auguste  on  12/10  at  03:44 AM

Not to mention that the Truthers run the gamut.  You have a few on the left, a few on the right, and most in the middle.

For certain values of “middle”.

Comment #65: Johnny Pez  on  12/10  at  03:52 AM

For some reason I had never realized that “Chinatown” was a documentary.

Ironically, he found out the truth the same year that Chinatown came out.

Life is weird.

Comment #66: Mnemosyne  on  12/10  at  03:57 AM

Mnemosyne -

I’m willing to grant that I could be misreading.

Comment #67: Andrew  on  12/10  at  04:17 AM

And, seriously, if the “furner” thing was going to stick, it would have stuck before the election. Not now. People who didn?t believe it then aren’t going to suddenly believe it now - if only because that would mean they were WRONG. And cognitive dissonance.

SCOTUS just denied certiorari Donofrio v. Wells a couple days ago, and the Shultz Tribune ads
(PDF) were last week.  Naturally, the assertion that a candidate cannot legitimately hold office only gains significance after they are elected.

The potential threat I see in this is not, as Amanda puts it, that it gives license to bitter Republican conviction that “any means necessary to get them out [of office] is justified.”  Rather, it’s the pretext for sedition articulated by the Shultz Tribune ads:  “You would be entitled to no allegiance, obedience or support from the People,” “The Armed Forces would be under no legal obligation to remain obedient to you,” etc.

Absence of widespread belief in this crap may further provoke the patriotic hero who perceives it as civic apathy, isolating them and demanding extreme measures to compensate.

The “national crisis that would undermine the domestic peace and stability,” Shultz charges Obama, would be invited because “you have repeatedly refused to provide evidence of your eligibility when challenged to do so in a number of recent lawsuits.”  But as pointed out above, “conspiracy theory continually expands to account for any evidence that seems to disprove it.” 

Which is why the best approach is to remind these conspiracists that the Constitution they so ardently seek to uphold doesn’t place the burden of proof on the defendant.

Comment #68: Telegram Sam  on  12/10  at  08:56 PM

Absence of widespread belief in this crap may further provoke the patriotic hero who perceives it as civic apathy, isolating them and demanding extreme measures to compensate.

Exactly.  The danger is a new Oklahoma City, not a new Whitewater.

Comment #69: Mnemosyne  on  12/10  at  09:16 PM

Mnemosyne:

I would go even further. My fears go past OKC and into Belfast. Too many of them have Darwin Award levels of armaments and a distinct hatred of anyone who doesn’t have their head up their ass.

Comment #70: Brian X  on  12/11  at  01:25 AM

It doesn’t occur to these boneheads that, just maybe, Obama isn’t giving them the “proof” they demand (despite already furnishing the proof the State Department requires for a passport) because no other president in history has been required to provide the original birth record documents for this reason!

In other words, racist xenophobia isn’t law.  If they want candidates to furnish such “proof”, there will need to be a body of law beyond the current body of law that establishes what “proof” is required and when and to whom it need be furnished.  Meanwhile, Obama has met the requirements of the current body of case law and praxis of various government agencies.

Comment #71: Ms Kate  on  12/11  at  05:25 PM

You’ll certainly love Obama’s “natural born” problem which explores the issue in some detail.

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/12/obama’s-“natural-born”-problem/

Comment #72: Dave  on  12/15  at  05:56 PM
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