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Next entry: I Give Unto You…A Negro Previous entry: Ft. Worth police raid gay bar on anniversary of Stonewall

Douthat sez: “Condoms cause adultery!” (Or not, depending on who you voted for)

We learn two interesting things about Ross Douthat’s appointment to be a columnist for the NY Times from his column today: that the desire to be coherent will never be an obstacle for Douthat when he’s trotting out his prejudice disguised at arguments, and that the reason that the editorial staff likes him is because Douthat is a steady source of the self-flagellating sexual fantasies that coastal elites develop about the seedy, unwashed minions of Middle America.  Though not all of the elite, to be fair.  I don’t think the bogeyman of the liberal elite is particularly concerned with fantasies of the renegade sexual pleasures of those of us that didn’t go to Ivy League schools—-it’s the more reactionary crowd that lives in New York and longs to be fucked in a trailer park that Douthat is playing to.  His ideal audience is David Brooks, I suppose. 

Anyway, his thesis (if you can call it that) is that the Liberal Elite® and Middle America® have wildly different sex lives, with the former having dull, tedious sex lives and the latter having really exciting ones, and oh irony that the people who care most about sexual liberation enjoy sex the least.  This isn’t an uncommon fantasy for right wingers, who often argue specifically that oppressing women in particular is hot.  It’s not even particularly new for Douthat, who is on the record about how he finds sex unappealing unless someone is going to get knocked up against her will.  There’s never been any solid proof that sex is more fun if you get to spice it up with the occasional abortion or shotgun wedding, at least not outside of the misogyny fetish circle, but this doesn’t do much to slow down the fantasizing.  What makes this essay special is that Douthat’s “proof” about the difference between the Liberal Elite® and Middle America® is that they behave exactly the same.

So which is the real America? Is it Tsing Loh’s dystopia, where everyone “works” grimly on their relationships, and post-feminist husbands happily cook saffron-infused porcini risotto but rarely practice seduction on their wives? Or is it tabloid country: The land of Jon minus Kate, and governors who vanish to “hike the Appalachian Trail” — not to mention gossip-column fixtures like Britney Spears (rumored last week to be contemplating her third marriage in six years) and the mistress-parading Mel Gibson?.....

The high-wire love lives of a Jon Gosselin or a Mark Sanford — or a Spears, or even a Lindsey Lohan — are remarkably true to the America that watches their shows, buys their CDs, and votes them into office. It’s the highly-educated, highly risk-averse milieu lamented by Nehring and Tsing Loh that’s a world unto itself.

So, to recap: If you step out on your dull, passion-free marriage while being a Republican, having a Southern accent, or being married to someone with church lady hair who was willing to have 6 kids at once, you are officially Middle America®, and so you stepped out because you’re full of passion.  But if you stepped out on your dull, passion-free marriage after voting for Obama or being married to a man who knows what a risotto even is, much less how to make it, it’s because you’re void of passion.  Got it. 


But Douthat is going to explain to you why the exact same behavior for the exact same reasons is actually very different, depending on your hairstyle or who you voted for.  It’s because all of America must share Douthat’s fetish for contraceptive-free sex.  No, I’m not kidding, that’s his reason.

The difficult scramble up the meritocratic ladder tends to discourage wild passions and death-defying flings. For bright young overachievers, there’s often a definite tameness to the way that collegiate “safe sex” segues into the upwardly-mobile security of “companionate marriages” — or, if you’re feeling more cynical, “consumption partnerships.”

This tameness has beneficial social consequences: When it comes to divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births, Americans with graduate degrees are still living in the 1950s. It’s the rest of the country that marries impulsively, divorces frequently, and bears a rising percentage of its children outside marriage.

Douthat is thinking of the 1950s in a parallel dimension, because the lower rates of divorce within the sliver of America with graduate degrees is due to their rejection of 1950s mores.  In the 1950s, teen pregnancy and marriage was at an all-time high.  But since a lot of people with graduate degrees delay marriage and childbirth into their late 20s and early 30s (or later!) in order to get on their career path, they’re taking advantage of the statistical fact that the later you marry, the likelier you are to hold it together.  None of this really says anything about the orgasmic void in the lives of the highly educated that Douthat is hinting at here, and every time I’ve seen any study that correlates sexual satisfaction to education, you find that the more you have of the latter, the more you have of the former. 

But it’s really hard to argue with his points, since he doesn’t state them outright, preferring to argue by insinuation.  But the insinuation isn’t hard to figure out—-liberals are boring, awful people and conservatives are dramatic, awesome people, and so when liberals cheat it’s sad, but when conservatives cheat it’s just an excess of passion.  Also, condoms are the worst invention ever, a direct assault of the Douthat stiffy, and if they could just go away and take the pill with them, that would be great.

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:00 PM • (105) Comments

I went over there and read it, and I have to say, kudos to you for making sense of it, because I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE IS SAYING.

Comment #1: Ismone  on  06/29  at  06:21 PM

I think Douthat’s just bitter because he’s never had a woman give him a blowjob without having to pay her $50 after she finishes.

Comment #2: Norsecats  on  06/29  at  06:29 PM

I was waiting for someone to write about this!  I read the article and got to the end and was sort of like “um, was there a point to all that?”

I think the underlying problem (which Douthat doesn’t address) is the assumption that marriage ends (or at least severely impairs) sex.  If you begin from that premise, why would you be surprised that relationships dwindle?

Comment #3: FashionablyEvil  on  06/29  at  06:31 PM

Ohhh, wait, is he saying my sex life is boring because I practiced safe sex and went to college?

I will give him that the adjective “boring” to my knowledge has rarely been applied to “STIs” or “pregnancy.”  Pain in the ass, yes, that adjectival phrase has been applied.

Comment #4: Ismone  on  06/29  at  06:35 PM

It’s funny, I was reading Atrios and he made one of his comments about dumbass and I figured oh, he must have wrote another doozy today, so I went to read it.  When I finished I came here because I thought, I bet Amanda wrote something about this. 

What I got out of it was; the lower classes are having unrestrained sex and they should be restrained because…well, who knows why, probably for the same reasons you shouldn’t give slaves and indians liquer.  And the upper classes should be having more unrestrained sex because they can handle it better.

Or something.

As always after reading his column I sat there with a “WTF!?” look on my face.

Comment #5: Lady Vader  on  06/29  at  06:35 PM

I had no idea what Douchat was talking about.  But it seems that a fair number of the male punditry are totally taken with the idea that Sanford’s infidelity and political downfall are somehow excusable because “he was in love”.  Men are so romantic, I’m almost seeing them picturing this as a modern version of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

Comment #6: CParis  on  06/29  at  06:40 PM

there’s often a definite tameness to the way that collegiate “safe sex” segues into the upwardly-mobile security of “companionate marriages” — or, if you’re feeling more cynical, “consumption partnerships.”

WTF? “Companionate marriages” are the risky ones. It’s the “marry the child of the friend of the family because we know he/she comes from a ‘good family’ and everyone approves” is the risk-averse choice to take in life.

Ross is quickly playing to type as the glib but ignorant young buffoon that we always assumed him to be. He’s like the bright child of one of your friends when you visit their house: you realize he’s bright for his age, and you’ll hear him make his arguments and perhaps applaud him for having the “right” answers he’s managed to pick up from his teachers even though they bespeak intellectual and emotional inexperience.

liberals are boring, awful people and conservatives are dramatic, awesome people, and so when liberals cheat it’s sad, but when conservatives cheat it’s just an excess of passion.

And, once again, childish bullshit. This is all typical Wagnerian admiration for the Tristian-and-Isolde-type fantasy passionate adultery with the dramatic lovers and their chaste-but-almost-passionate affairs and laments of how the modern world has made us so ordered and cold and blahblahblah typical “I’ve never had real emotions but I fantasize about how awesome they must be” bullshit.

Comment #7: Tyro  on  06/29  at  06:40 PM

I’ll admit that my sex life hasn’t been as good lately, but it has more to do with having two kids (one of whom officially shares our bed, the other just frequently crawls into it), jobs, school, getting ready to move to another continent, and buying a house, all at once. We just don’t have time or opportunity.

Before all that? Well educated and awesome (and frequent) sex. Just sayin’, not that I mean to brag or nothin’.

Comment #8: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  06/29  at  06:42 PM

seriously, thanks for translating from douthat to english, as best as anyone can.  i had no clue what he was actually trying to argue, except that highly educated people are sad and boring and that safe sex is somehow contributing to this.

i also did a wtf at his assertion that people with graduate degrees are living in the 50s—it makes perfect sense to me that if you wait until you are an actual adult with a stable living situation and enough life experience to know what it is that you want, that you’d be more likely to end up in a marriage that would last. 

i especially love the last incoherent part where he suggest setting up the wayward celebrity adulterers with the passionless liberal authors he mentions.  i’ve said it a thousand times already, but the fact that this guy has a column in the new york times is vomit-inducing.

Comment #9: chareth cutestory  on  06/29  at  06:43 PM

Sooo….ummmm…..

Eric Cantor = stud muffin?
Michelle Bachman = smoldering vamp?

‘Kay.

It’s not April 1st, is it?

Comment #10: Magis  on  06/29  at  06:49 PM

Wait. Hang on.

The difficult scramble up the meritocratic ladder tends to discourage wild passions and death-defying flings.

So…Governor Sanford didn’t have to scramble up the meritocratic ladder? Got it. It makes perfect sense. Republican politicians, um, they buy their seats with their own money or their wives’ money. So they’re not scrambling up the ladder. This means they’re “jus’ folks” like the trailer park denizens and not like the elites, who are liberal and have less money than the non-scrambling Republican officeholders. The trailer park folks aren’t upwardly mobile and thus have not bothered to try scrambling up the meritocratic ladder, so they’re just like Republicans who buy political office. Have I got that right? I’m feeling quite addled.

Comment #11: Orange  on  06/29  at  06:53 PM

Okay, so, if I’m understanding this column correctly… I should go have an affair?

Comment #12: acallidryas  on  06/29  at  06:54 PM

It’s funny, I just sent the link to this article to Amanda on the off chance that she hadn’t read it yet. I am glad I am not the only person pissed off (and somewhat amused) by this nonsense.

  One of the many things I found irritating about this ham-fisted word sludge is the tired trope that women are simultaneously acted upon by men (being cheated on, getting left, getting knocked up, saddled with milquetoast eunuchs) and also to blame and in dire need of shaming for these things happening.

  The reductionist approach to relationships also made me angry. So either men and women (‘cause queers don’t count) are ennui ridden drabs sprinkling truffle oil on their haricot blanc cassoulets and swapping bon mots from their favorite Mamet plays while having icky condom sex or they are red hot lovers unfettered by the chains that “intellectuals” so willingly don ready for whatever passion may bring. Right.

  Oh, and men who cook are neutered domestic helpmeets who shouldn’t feel surprised when their women cheat on them with the lusty…govenor…or Mel Gibson.

Comment #13: HooksInMyHead  on  06/29  at  06:56 PM

Doh! Governor. Edit first, post second.

Comment #14: HooksInMyHead  on  06/29  at  06:58 PM

The column makes perfect sense from the perspective of Douthat’s bio: he’s a member of the East Coast elite (New Haven, CT and Hah-vahd) who (likely due to his RC Church Xtian fantasism) married relatively young to a an East-cost woman with a career of her own. Now he’s trying to convince her that, religious convinctions aside, she should really be more like them thar wild and slutty baby-makin’ machines from the Heartland.

The real question is, why would the NYT give space to such unbecoming and personal marital pleading?

Comment #15: Gracchus.  on  06/29  at  07:03 PM

This tameness has beneficial social consequences: When it comes to divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births, Americans with graduate degrees are still living in the 1950s. It’s the rest of the country that marries impulsively, divorces frequently, and bears a rising percentage of its children outside marriage.

Apparently, Douthat thinks the worst thing about the 1950s was stable marriage.

Uhhh…. my parents disagree.

Comment #16: Juan Stoppable  on  06/29  at  07:06 PM

Dear posters on Pandagon,

When Douthat got the nyt gig I posted in a comments thread that he usually had something interesting to say, as I regularly read his Atlantic blog and thought it was pretty decent when it wasn’t bleating about sex or abortion or whatever. I argued that his column was going to be a net positive.

Obviously I have been proven wrong on this. Sorry about that.

Best,

Poster Colin

Comment #17: Colin  on  06/29  at  07:11 PM

I could make no sense of this column so I admire anyone who does.

The “companionate marriage” thing is really a swipe at the idea that the people in marriage are equal and unique entities who negotiate the terms of their relationship according to their individual needs.  So, yeah, this appears to be yet another swipe at the idea that wimmins should want to be involved in equal marriage.  So, really, he is sort of plagiarizing his previous column in which he explained how feminist women are confused about what they really want which is to feel wanted in the service of men and their duty is to flatter their masters/husbands. 

His addendum to this, I guess, is that if your marriage is not marked by rank inequality you should have an affair.  That’s new.  (And also I know this has been said before—but, yeah, fear of marriage equality is fear of equality.)

Comment #18: pennylane  on  06/29  at  07:13 PM

I’m not even sure where to start, but it might be with Douthat’s none-too-subtle criticism of Nehring as an “unwed mother”... and must surely move on to involve parsing out this gem:

...that the same overclass that was once most invested in erotic experimentation ended up building the sturdiest walls against the passions it unleashed.

WT-effin’-F?  I mean, is he actually calling the sexual revolution an imposition of an overclass?  I’ve seen this “liberal elite” meme taken to some pretty silly extremes, but this is just ridiculous.

Irony died when Lynne Forester de Rothschild called Obama an elitist.  Douthat has just exhumed its corpse in order to perform acts of necrophilia.

Comment #19: jamie d  on  06/29  at  07:21 PM

<blockquote>a modern version of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. </blockquote?

Sanford is a Nazi sympathizer with a submission fetish?  Cool. 

Funny, though, Mrs. Sanford never looks as if she is so tense and repressed that any minute she could garotte a child with a sterling silver shrimp fork whilst still retaining a frozen, phony smile, which was pretty much Wallis Simpson’s permanent expression.

Comment #20: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  07:24 PM

I can’t see any post about anything he’s written (particularly anything having to do with sex) without thinking of the Inestimably Valuable TBogg’s immortal post title, “I’ll Do Anything For Love, But I Won’t Douthat.”

And then I chuckle to myself and find it impossible to focus on whatever Douthat has apparently said. I gather I’m not really missing anything, so, yay for me.

Comment #21: mr_subjunctive  on  06/29  at  07:26 PM

Well, jamie d, as in everything, the exact same behavior is totally different depending on your degree, income, and voting patterns.  So when liberal yuppies fuck around, that’s the “sexual revolution”.  When Middle Americans do it, that’s just an expression of their animalistic inability to self-regulate.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/29  at  07:28 PM

Somehow, I can’t imagine Douthat’s marriage bed rocking with ecstacy too often either…

Comment #23: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/29  at  07:37 PM

Oddly enough, what strikes me the most with the article isn’t the general stupidity (I’m used to that by now) nor the sexual stupidity (used to it) or the complete lack of coherence (used to that too), it’s the part about the risotto.

I mean, risotto is really easy to make. And cheap. How is that the food of the Liberal Elite? How does being able to make risotto make you a less sexy man? It’s just slightly more difficult than boiling rice.

Comment #24: Canoe  on  06/29  at  07:37 PM

I hope Mrs Douthat isn’t reading. And there I was thinking that it was enough for Maureen Dowd to use the op-ed pages of the NYT as sex therapy where the patient gets paid.

Comment #25: pseudonymous in nc  on  06/29  at  07:38 PM

Well, we had both awesome risotto and awesome sex just last night, but we’re over-educated, elitist hippie scum, so there you go.

Why the hell is this guy being paid to expose how deeply fucked up he is? Shouldn’t he be paying a therapist to listen to his anxious masculinity bullshit?

Comment #26: Bella  on  06/29  at  07:41 PM

Look, most of us read that Douthat article and said, “er, what the hell is he trying to say??”  It’s not because we’re thick it’s because despite being unable to marshal and present coherent thoughts Douthat has rocketed upward in his career in one of the best examples out there of white guy affirmative action.  (Ricci came down today, coincidentally enough.  At least the white firefighters actually knew how to do their jobs.  If they had been judged on the Douthat standard they would have all been made Captains on the basis of not knowing which end of the hose pointed towards the fire.)

Look, I’m going to self-quote because I hate this talentless doucheteria so much:

...I occasionally read Douhat’s stuff but honestly can’t see why he is so eagerly respected.  The fact that he’s not a congenital liar and a consistently wrong slime like Kristol does not stand as intellect; it stands damnation by faint praise.  Three of his most lauded pieces are the Atlantic piece on porn masturbation and his lengthy article on the paranoid style in American cinema, and his Atlantic article on letting Christianity find its voice.  All are empty and silly:

* The first is a series of digressions with a rather smug little moral underneath, (porn, jacking off and you are all bad) ...

* The second is astounding in that, while condescending to all the silly, silly, silly deluded liberals who make such odd movies about government malfeasance it never bothers to address the rafts of known government amorality, immorality, conspiracies and wrongdoing that helped make a formerly idealistic citizenry into near-paranoids in the first place; it was the journalistic equivalent of sneering at people who write about being “mugged” (`as if such a thing actually happens!’ he seems to say) without finding out a damned thing about street crime.

* The third is perhaps the most bizarre of all.  It stands for the proposition that the Christian faith, which has been the temporal, cultural and spiritual alpha dog for most of modern western history, is somehow unheard and finally needs a chance to have its views considered.  It is difficult to find a phrase beyond “astounding nonsense” for something ludicrous.

He is innovative in no way.  He trots out very tired right wing and religious ideas but since they come from a young face and are said without the vicious rancour so characteristic of modern American conservatism they seem, to some, to be fresh and new.  He’s just the “nice, friendly rookie” in the good cop / bad cop routine of American conservatism.

.... But am I the only one who notices that when “young people” are brought into the mainstream American media they tend to be conservative?  Douhat gets a gig first at the Atlantic and then at the NYT; McEwan has to get published in England, Marcotte gets her TV appearances cancelled, and Klein*, Moulitsas and Marshall are “just bloggers” and left firmly in their place.

Any total fool who tries to convince blacks or women or gays that there isn’t a privilege dynamic at work in America for straight white guys who toe the “company line” need only point to Douthat.  He is obviously no more talented than dozens, perhaps hundreds of competitors of all kinds.  But the straight white guy spouting repackaged conservative nostrums rockets right to the top of his profession’s heap before he’s thirty.

* - Klein, of course, has since been brought on to WaPo, which promptly fired Froomkin, its best and most honest web columnist, so no points there.

The most infuriating thing about Douthat is not that he’s a conservative.  They’re everywhere.  The infuriating thing is that he is given pride of place despite being a palpable nincompoop who can’t think or write straight.  He is proof that the meritocracy was taken out behind the polo sheds and shot in the back of the head some time ago.

Comment #27: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  07:44 PM

Yes, Canoe, “risotto” us the new “dijon!”  I got stuck on “rarely practice seduction on their wives.”  Good little wife-women have no interest in sex, obviously, and have to be cajoled/tricked into giving it up.

I’m all for fun&games;in the bedroom, or on the way to the bedroom, but the word “seduction” in the context of a committed partnership, with its implications of unwillingness on one side, is so icky.

Comment #28: Shiny  on  06/29  at  07:45 PM

WT-effin’-F?  I mean, is he actually calling the sexual revolution an imposition of an overclass?  I’ve seen this “liberal elite” meme taken to some pretty silly extremes, but this is just ridiculous.

In an extremely broad sense, and if you squint, he’s kinda-sorta right.  Aristocrats have always been allowed an amount of sexual license that was not permitted to the lower classes.  The big achievement of the Victorian Era was successfully imposing middle-class sexual values on the upper classes (or at least getting them to pay lip service to them).  Aristocrats—both men and women—were expected to cheat on their spouses up until Victoria inherited the throne.  Hell, it probably didn’t even count as cheating since everyone knew what was going on.  Apparently the movie was crap, but The Duchess with Kiera Knightley was about the Duchess of Devonshire, the Duke of Devonshire, and the duke’s mistress, who all lived together in (reasonable) harmony.

Comment #29: Mnemosyne  on  06/29  at  07:45 PM

@seeker6079 - I don’t think my comment was clear.  I actually was thinking of Sanford as the Duke, giving up his kingdom for “the woman he loved” - his Argentinian mistress.  Obviously, his presidential ambitions are toast, so it had better be “true love”!

Comment #30: CParis  on  06/29  at  07:46 PM

CParis:
Yeah, I got that bit.  I just loathe that pair with a blinding intensity that I couldn’t resist the nasty but accurate joke.

Bunch of us history-inclined lawyers had a “what if” WW2 roundtable about ten years ago.  One of the questions tossed to me and my then-law-partner was “what would you have done with the Windsors?”  Knowing us to be monarchists they expected a soft answer, but the one they got from both of us shocked them: we would have had them both killed by their security detail the second the Germans invaded England.

Comment #31: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  07:50 PM

his thesis (if you can call it that) is that the Liberal Elite® and Middle America® have wildly different sex lives, with the former having dull, tedious sex lives and the latter having really exciting ones

This is half of the ideas in Atlas Shrugged: that only libertarians can have orgasm.

His thesis seems to dribble away. Sandra Tsing Loh had a fling; is getting divorced whereas Governor Sanford had a fling, is crawling back to his wife on his knees. Gender, not politics or polenta, would seem to be the biggest difference between the two.

One of his ideas makes sense: Cristina Nehring, who seems to be an idealistic nincompoop, would be a good match for the middle aged crazy Sanford.

Comment #32: Hector B.  on  06/29  at  07:53 PM

Seriously… is he working up a preemptive argument for his own ability to self-regulate, or is it just a complaint that the (lack of a) lovelife of an upwardly-mobile young(ish) intellectual is stifling, and doesn’t live up to his fantasies about controlmarriage? Either way, psuedonymous in nc, you have to wonder if she isn’t exactly his intended audience. 

Passive-agressive much, Ross?

Comment #33: jamie d  on  06/29  at  08:00 PM

Evidently Russ Douthat’s criticism of the left is as follows:
1) The Librul Elite is full of people who’ve worked their way up in a meritocracy, meaning that they achieved status because they deserved it
2) The Librul Elite has more stable marriages and families.

TAKE THAT, apparently.

I think Socrates used this debate technique. What you do is, you compliment your opponent, try to insult them by saying that they’re exactly the same as your allies, and then act like you’ve attacked them. Phase 3 is profit!

Comment #34: Lenina  on  06/29  at  08:12 PM

Mnemosyne-

I understand what you’re saying there, and yeah, Victorian morality was a triumph of middle-class prudery over the perceived excesses of old-blood aristocracy; I somehow doubt that (ha!) was his meaning, though.  He’s talking pretty clearly about the 1960’s and all them free-lovin’ hippies, feminists, and queers who went and made sex boring for straight, white, ivy-league men with control issues.

Comment #35: jamie d  on  06/29  at  08:13 PM

I understand what you’re saying there, and yeah, Victorian morality was a triumph of middle-class prudery over the perceived excesses of old-blood aristocracy; I somehow doubt that (ha!) was his meaning, though.

Oh, I doubt that was what he meant, too.  It’s just funny to me that he accidentally brushed up against something resembling an actual fact since sexual freedom was, in fact, a privilege of the upper classes until quite recently.

Comment #36: Mnemosyne  on  06/29  at  08:20 PM

a definite tameness to the way that collegiate “safe sex” segues into the upwardly-mobile security of “companionate marriages” — or, if you’re feeling more cynical, “consumption partnerships.”

Companionate marriages?  As in the marriage of companions?  People who have something in common?  And that’s boring?

As opposed to the living hell of the shotgun marriage?

Fuck this shit.  Douthat is completely clueless about sex.  Completely.  It’s like reading nonsense from the RCC hierarchy describing what purpose sex serves in a marriage when they have no (healthy) experience in either.

Why is he at the “flagship” paper of America?  Is the NYT trying to kill itself off?

Comment #37: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/29  at  08:20 PM

Phase 3 is profit!

snort!

I don’t know why this column in particular, of all his dribblings, has finally pushed me over the edge like this.  I must resist the urge to go back and read his archives looking for the point in time when he dropped the pretense and simply became all douche, all the time.  I am afraid that if I do that (ha!) I will end up a quivering, giggling madman.  Seriously, reading his stuff incurs a risk of sanity loss.

Comment #38: jamie d  on  06/29  at  08:22 PM

Before all that? Well educated and awesome (and frequent) sex. Just sayin’, not that I mean to brag or nothin’.
Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato

Are you sure about that Matthew?  You actually know what affagato is.  That’s worse than saffron risotto.

Comment #39: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/29  at  08:25 PM

Companionate marriage= marriage of equals.  Marriage based not on power disparity and paternal ownership, but on shared goals and companionship.  Thus, evil.  The first hit on google even has the Obamas’ picture, so you know it must be reeeeeally bad.

Comment #40: jamie d  on  06/29  at  08:36 PM

I got stuck on “rarely practice seduction on their wives.” Good little wife-women have no interest in sex, obviously, and have to be cajoled/tricked into giving it up.

Yeah, and cooking a nice Italian dinner isn’t seductive in the slightest.  And if he did the dishes afterward?  Really off-putting.

It’s much better to insist your wife come home from work, cook dinner from scratch, set a perfect table with china that has to be hand-washed, brings you an after dinner drink while she then cleans the kitchen and dining room.  After all that, then she’ll really be in the mood!

Comment #41: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/29  at  08:37 PM

Oh, I doubt that was what he meant, too.  It’s just funny to me that he accidentally brushed up against something resembling an actual fact since sexual freedom was, in fact, a privilege of the upper classes until quite recently.

Sort of, though it was often a privilege reserved to upper class men.  Women needed to be chaste to guarantee paternity and proper transfer of power/property.  So Douthat is complaining that the sexual fun is not just for his class anymore.

Comment #42: pennylane  on  06/29  at  08:38 PM

pennylane:
Women had to be faithful before the requisite number of children to ensure The Line.  After that adultery was permissible, indeed, nearly inevitable for both genders of the upper classes of Victorian England.  An excellent and illustrative example is Jenny Churchill, Winston’s mother.  It is probable that her second son, Jack Strange Churchill, was not fathered by her syphilltic husband Lord Randolph but by her lover (wait for it) Jack Strange.

It’s not as if this sort of thing has stopped either.  It is tacitally and tactfully not mentioned in the mainstream press that Prince Harry is probably not Charles’ son.

http://www.morungexpress.com/thumbnail.php?file=harry_631356738.jpg&size=article_medium

Comment #43: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  08:50 PM

After all that, then she’ll really be in the mood!

Oddly enough, few women get horny when their minds are occupied with all the household chores that need doing. So the most seductive thing you can do is often dust, vacuum, and shampoo the rugs.

Comment #44: Hector B.  on  06/29  at  08:57 PM

When it comes to divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births, Americans with graduate degrees are still living in the 1950s. It’s the rest of the country that marries impulsively, divorces frequently, and bears a rising percentage of its children outside marriage.

You know, I had a friend in grad school who was doing her best to live like she was on a reality show.  Dramatic divorce, lots of flings, drama drama drama all damn day.  She eventually had to STFU because it turns out the people who work with you and hire you (and when you’re in graduate school, hello, welcome to the people you’ll be with the rest of your career) don’t really want to tune into episodes of your private reality show every work day.  Eventually, they will start judging you for it and you will be passed over for things if it is percieved you’re too preoccupied by your catastrophic personal life.

My ex and my roommate, who have very low class jobs and plenty of dirt poor relatives, see far more drama than I do, and we chalk it up to boredom.  When your job sucks and your life sucks there’s no reason not to have an exciting, special, dramatic love life.  The sex isn’t necessarily better but at least it gives you something to talk about between tables and it won’t adversely affect your job.

Comment #45: Kyso K  on  06/29  at  09:11 PM

shiny:

I got stuck on “rarely practice seduction on their wives.” Good little wife-women have no interest in sex, obviously, and have to be cajoled/tricked into giving it up.

I’m all for fun&games;in the bedroom, or on the way to the bedroom, but the word “seduction” in the context of a committed partnership, with its implications of unwillingness on one side, is so icky.

yes, this.  This is the crux of it, I think.  If your wife is your companion, demanding of you such emasculating things as risotto, foot-rubs, and equality in the partnership, you can’t possibly be having fun.  If you think you are, you’re lying to yourself and settling for an emotionless liberal-elite sexual-revolution-inspired unsexy life.  He, for one, wouldn’t blame you if you found an Argentinian mistress to help revitalize your masculinity.

If you’re a woman, well, you’d better keep that man in check, lest you suffer a fate worse than death (abandonment by your husband, thereby depriving you of the thing which gives your entire existence meaning).  And don’t even think about straying yourself, you hussy.

Comment #46: jamie d  on  06/29  at  09:16 PM

It is tacitally and tactfully not mentioned in the mainstream press that Prince Harry is probably not Charles’ son.

I don’t buy it.  Harry looks so much like Phillip.

Of course, when he was born, Charles’s response was “A boy.  And he’s russet.”  That pretty much ended the marriage.

Comment #47: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/29  at  09:27 PM

Let’s face it:
A man who would rather cook supper than take his wife to bed has issues deeper than gender politics: it’s called avoidance behaviour.

We went over this ground on threads where sex ended within a marriage.  Sometimes a spouse isn’t having sex not because the other spouse isn’t doing X things around the house and the burden falls on them; they are doing X things around the house rather than have sex with the spouse.

The former blogger Shasta McNasty put her finger on it: a couple that can afford two divorce lawyers can certainly afford to have somebody come in and clean the damned house if that’s what’s standing between them and divorce.

We’re not talking gender; we’re talking misery.

Comment #48: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  09:29 PM

Caren:  Me, I think that the marriage was ended by two spectacularly ill-suited people being matched in the first place and spiralling downwards into their own misery-caused selfishness.

Harry doesn’t look like Philip; he just acts like him, unfortunately.

Comment #49: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  09:32 PM

The point about “seduction” is certainly whacked enough (attention Ross: it’s called “foreplay” and it’s something *both* partners should do) but the thing that gets me is how he so obviously conflates kink with repression. Kink is about consensual and informed transgression of known boundaries; with your typical Republican-style sex scandal, the problem is that the person has been lied to about the boundaries and decides that *any* boundary is wrong.

Sexual conservatives aren’t kinkier or more daring; they’re self-deluded.

Comment #50: BrianX  on  06/29  at  09:33 PM

Companionate marriages?  As in the marriage of companions?  People who have something in common?  And that’s boring?

Apparently it is for Douthat. He married a woman of the same age, from the same upper middle-class CT background, from the same college, in the same profession, likely from the same religion—what most of us would recognise as a typical “coastal elite companionate marriage” (complete with NYT wedding announcement) except for the fact that he got married at 27. Two years later, Douthat seems quite dissatisfied with this “companionate marriage.” Reading this article, it’s not difficult to divine the source of his restlessness.

Ironic, then, that he’s as trapped by his own self-righteous public persona in his marriage as is any under-30 working-class Heartland schmo who’s stuck in a shotgun RCC marriage. But then, patriarchal religion abounds in those sorts of ironies. It’s no wonder he’s so sympathetic to Sanford and Ensign’s “irrepressible passions”—it’s only a matter of time before the same passions “force” Douthat to join the long line of Xtian hypocrites, and he seems to know it.

Comment #51: Gracchus.  on  06/29  at  09:34 PM

Oh well, maybe he does:
http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl2/20/202476/24_2009/0478f1a17974298d_Prince_Harry_Prince_William_the_Queen_and_the_Royal_Family_at_Trooping_the_Colour_2009.jpg

In any event, our divining task is complicated by the fact that the English aristocracy all look alike anyways.  All those years of carefully cultivated inbreeding, dontchaknow.

Comment #52: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  09:35 PM

Sort of, though it was often a privilege reserved to upper class men.  Women needed to be chaste to guarantee paternity and proper transfer of power/property.

Seeker beat me to it, but even for women, all you really needed to do was present your lord and master with “an heir and a spare” that he could be sure were his, and then you could do what you wanted.  (After marriage, of course—no fooling around pre-marriage lest you damage the goods.)  You needed to be reasonably discreet and any “mistakes” would usually be farmed out to childless relatives and not raised with the family, but it wasn’t considered a disgrace or a ticket to an automatic divorce until Victorian times.

Amanda Foreman’s book Georgiana: Duchess of Devonshire is a pretty good view of aristocratic life in the late 1700s that explains the ins and outs of these things, but even that was a transitional period when the middle class and their morals were starting to be socially influential in England.

Comment #53: Mnemosyne  on  06/29  at  09:35 PM

To follow up on Mnemosyne:
For a good and entertaining look at this late Victorian era sexuality read the opening background section of William Manchester’s “The Last Lion”, (the Prologue, “Land of Hope and Glory”, if memory serves ... my copy is in storage).

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  06/29  at  09:40 PM

Mnemosyne  on  06/29  at  06:45 PM
The big achievement of the Victorian Era was successfully imposing middle-class sexual values on the upper classes (or at least getting them to pay lip service to them).  Aristocrats—both men and women—were expected to cheat on their spouses up until Victoria inherited the throne.

And the response to that suppression was one of the most wildly unchecked sexually-obsessed cultures in English history. Historians looking back at the era find some of the most bizarre sex toys—hell, sex machines—you’ll ever see and plenty of evidence that raunchy fucking was an obsessive-compulsive endeavor for some of the upper-crust.

Still, the hypocrisy and double-standard itself is something that the ass-kissers of empire always appreciated. Douthat (god his name is bizarre) is carrying on the fine tory tradition of distorted reality.

jamie d  on  06/29  at  07:22 PM
Seriously, reading his stuff incurs a risk of sanity loss.

. . . Making Douthat the only NYT writer that one reads only after having inscribed an Elder Sign. Ia, Ia Douthat Fhtagn.

Comment #55: No One of Consequence  on  06/29  at  09:44 PM

@ Kyoso

My ex and my roommate, who have very low class jobs and plenty of dirt poor relatives, see far more drama than I do, and we chalk it up to boredom.  When your job sucks and your life sucks there’s no reason not to have an exciting, special, dramatic love life.  The sex isn’t necessarily better but at least it gives you something to talk about between tables and it won’t adversely affect your job.

I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but this read to me as a tad classist. Not all of us with ‘low-class jobs’ hate our lives; some of us don’t just like jumping through hoops 24/7 and would rather devote our energy to our lives than our careers. YMMV.

Comment #56: aebhel  on  06/29  at  09:52 PM

heh, speaking of sex toys…. I love the bizarre juxtaposition of NYTimes articles.  The same day Douthat writes about the elites having boring boring sex, the Style page goes on about True Romance parties and the mainstreaming of vibrators.

Comment #57: Shiny  on  06/29  at  09:52 PM

All the way through the column I was thinking, “What is he really saying here?”

And then I got to this:

But most Americans, particularly those of modest means, would benefit from greater caution and stability in their romantic entanglements.

Translation: Poor people oughta behave themselves.

Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh.

Comment #58: Witt  on  06/29  at  10:10 PM

Amanda, it doesn’t sound like he’s describing the exact same behavior at all:

So which is the real America? Is it Tsing Loh’s dystopia, where everyone “works” grimly on their relationships, and post-feminist husbands happily cook saffron-infused porcini risotto but rarely practice seduction on their wives? Or is it tabloid country: The land of Jon minus Kate, and governors who vanish to “hike the Appalachian Trail” — not to mention gossip-column fixtures like Britney Spears (rumored last week to be contemplating her third marriage in six years) and the mistress-parading Mel Gibson?

He’s building a straw man—the castrated male (saffron-infused porcini risotto is… a bad thing?), “‘works’ grimly” while blissfully unaware that work often involves a ton of lube and a small fortune in sex toys, and doesn’t define seduction as anything beyond high school date rape.

Mel Gibson has more fun? In the drunk tank moaning about Jews? Sanford, crying on TV? Brittany Spears? REALLY???

It is incomprehensible because you really have to think sex-tourist drug addict Rush Limbaugh IS more fun than Europe-touring-with-his-wife Paul Krugman (his blog is fun, btw). Because you’re a scared little inexperienced wimp who’d pay more for ketchup than saffron, thank you very much.

As we know him to be.

Your read, Amanda ... I just don’t get that from his text. Though it is, at least, far more coherent.

Comment #59: humanadverb  on  06/29  at  10:14 PM

except for the fact that he got married at 27.

And really, that’s not so unusual.  That’s not a young marriage, except by Manhattan standards.  I’ve known women who got weepy if they thought they wouldn’t be married by 25.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/29  at  10:26 PM

Normal people don’t care about gays and their relationships.

Except for those gays who are normal people.

You’re the one who thinks marriage is hell, right? You must have asked your wife.

Comment #61: junk science  on  06/29  at  10:30 PM

ha, the exact same behaviors are this: He’s saying that the story of Mark Sanford stepping out on his boring marriage and Sandra Tsing Loh stepping out on her boring marriage are evidence of the vast differences between the two. Because they did the same thing (step out) for the same reason (boring marriages).  The reality that he’s studiously avoiding is that actually, red or blue, Americans get married, get bored, and cheat.  The only real difference is whether you’re an enormous asshole about other people’s sex lives.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/29  at  10:37 PM

Wait, wait.  I thought liberals were always having crazy, wild, boundary-transgressing, ship-of-state-wrecking sex, and that’s why conservatives had to be able to bring the force of law to bear in order to put a stop to it.  If conservatives are really the ones out to wreck up the nation’s homes, shouldn’t they be the ones banned from fucking/marrying/procreating as they see fit?

Comment #63: preying mantis  on  06/29  at  11:02 PM

shiny:
“I got stuck on “rarely practice seduction on their wives.” Good little wife-women have no interest in sex, obviously, and have to be cajoled/tricked into giving it up.”

And since I read Pam’s post about abusive “exorcism” of a gay kid before this post, I read that sentence as “rarely practice forced exorcisms on their possessed-by-sexually-averse-demon wives.”

Comment #64: shakahi  on  06/29  at  11:03 PM

I think, in Douthat’s mind, both are true. Liberals don’t enjoy sex because it’s allowed.  This takes all the fun out of it.  Sex is only exciting if it’s fucking things up, which is why contraception is so unsexy, because it shuts down one avenue to screwing the pooch.  And worse, it does it in the worst way—-god made women so that we have someone to hurt to make sex exciting! 

The reality is that fear actually stifles pleasure.  Because transgression sounds exciting, it seems that putting up more boundaries and more opportunities to transgress would make sex more exciting, but not so.  A lot of people find that fear of pregnancy stifles their basic ability to enjoy sex, because they can’t even concentrate on the moment.

Comment #65: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/29  at  11:05 PM

This is an awful lot of discussion for what boils down to: IOKIYAR.  Leave it to Douthat and the NYT to turn that axiom into such a perfect self parody.

Comment #66: libdevil  on  06/29  at  11:20 PM

I do love the scare-quotes around companionate marriage, too.  I mean, oh my god, somebody save us from the horror of being able to pick out a spouse we can stand, to whom we are attracted, and who we believe would make a decent parent/life-partner/whatever.  If we can’t have our marriages arranged as business contracts with a little obligatory fucking thrown in, we might as well all be dead of nuclear holocaust.  Won’t somebody please think of the heir and a spare.

Comment #67: preying mantis  on  06/29  at  11:23 PM

Oh. I entirely missed the Sandra Tsing Loh reference (it is entirely off my radar), so my read of his argument shifted to the other elements. Missed it cuz I’m entirely out to lunch if Atrios doesn’t wag it under my nose. I see what you’re saying.

Still, though, doesn’t it come back, largely, to that straw man I describe, and other commenters are in orbit around?

He does draw a qualitative difference between Sandra Tsing Loh and Sanford, which is mystifying to me, especially since it seems that if he had dealt with her position directly he might have had to knock down the quality of relationships that transcend marriage. The Sanford affair certainly seems to back up her position, if only from the female perspective. (But again, sobbing on national TV versus telling the bitch to get the fuck out—I know which I’d rather have.)

No, I still disagree, though I realize I was initially off-base. I think Douthat’s column depends entirely on ignorance, stereotypes, and dogwhistles, which isn’t as remarkable as much as it is in the New York Times.

Comment #68: humanadverb  on  06/29  at  11:35 PM

Also: “tell the bitch to get the fuck out” isn’t something I’ve done. I’ve been in that situation and ... been a forgiver.

Well, I don’t know if that’s healthy, but cheating is certainly common enough that it seems to be a dumb thing to end a relationship over. At least in high school (yes, in high school) before you co-own leases and air conditioners and things that you have to deal with in addition to your relationship. I wasn’t hung up on status or social issues, and there was a lot of other stuff working between us, so we moved forward.

Or maybe I should’ve stuck up for myself better. I don’t know. The point is, I didn’t actually say, “bitch, get the fuck out.” As much as I would rather say that than be sobbing on TV over my own crappiness, I know it is wrong.

Comment #69: humanadverb  on  06/29  at  11:42 PM

Seeker beat me to it, but even for women, all you really needed to do was present your lord and master with “an heir and a spare” that he could be sure were his, and then you could do what you wanted.

Or who could, with a straight face, be said to be his, and you were golden. In European history more than one, shall we say underperforming, king miraculously had his little soldiers show up to do the deed and apparently go AWOL immediately thereafter.  And no doubt that studmuffin of a baron who was frequently seen around the palace was discretely given a nice castle really far away (or a knife in the back, depending on the king’s mood).

Comment #70: KeithM  on  06/30  at  12:13 AM

And really, that’s not so unusual.  That’s not a young marriage, except by Manhattan standards.  I’ve known women who got weepy if they thought they wouldn’t be married by 25.

Well, I’d expand it to “urban professional elite standards,” of which Manhattan is definitely a part. Which does make it unusual for someone like Douthat. As you noted:

a lot of people with graduate degrees delay marriage and childbirth into their late 20s and early 30s (or later!) in order to get on their career path, they’re taking advantage of the statistical fact that the later you marry, the likelier you are to hold it together.

Those marriage-delaying graduate degrees plus a few years attaining journeyman status (or a similar, non-academic time investment in a career) are hallmarks of joining that particular class in NYC, L.A., S.F., DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. If marriage is considered or even wept over, it’s envisioned as a “companionate” marriage of peers and equals. However, it’s still rare in those circles to actually get married (especially in the context of traditional religion) in one’s early or even late 20s.

Douthat is one of those exceptions. He strikes me as one of those nerdy debate clubbers who found patriarchal Xtianism a good complement to his patriarchal Libertarianism, and stuck with all three even as he travelled through the standard (if sheltered) “coastal elite” path of prep school, top-25 university, and starter career (which, as with many wingnut welfare beneficiaries, hangs on the marketing hook of his anamolous explicit commitment to conservatism and religion).

The problem he’s probably run into is that his wife, however committed she herself is to conservatism and her religion, is still as focused on career as he is—precisely for the reasons that she was a suitable companion in terms of social class and ambition. According to their wedding announcement, she attended Harvard and then to Columbia J-school, worked for the Baltimore Sun and wrote for Smithsonian (under her own last name, mind you). An impressive and high-powered woman who’s likely also a better, more coherent writer than her husband.

In short, this is not the sort of 29-year-old who typically submits to the typical patriarchal religious demands of being barefoot and pregnant, or otherwise acting as sexual chattel to her husband. And that kind of submission, as you cited, is what really turns Douthat’s crank, and his longing for it is the reason why he’s publicly fantasising about these “ideal” Heartland women who, lacking the distraction of careers and lives of their own, can switch from Madonna to Whore and back again at a snap of hubby’s fingers. But he’s too much a creature of the “urban professional elite” to have actually considered marrying a socially unsuitable companion.

The only saving grace for Douthat is that we recognise his sheltered callowness. Which again leads one to wonder why the NYT would consider him worthy of the same status of MoDo or BoBo, let alone serious writers like Bob Herbert or Paul Krugman. But I’m not going to explore the “logic” of a media outlet that once believed its op-ed brand was so valuable that it was the only content placed behind a paywall, and then simultaneously debased the very same brand by making a gibbering idiot like Bill Kristol one of its faces. For whatever reason, they think it’s a net plus having a house idiot on the columnist roll, and Douthat is currently it.

Comment #71: Gracchus.  on  06/30  at  12:15 AM

I think, in Douthat’s mind, both are true. Liberals don’t enjoy sex because it’s allowed.  This takes all the fun out of it.  Sex is only exciting if it’s fucking things up, which is why contraception is so unsexy, because it shuts down one avenue to screwing the pooch.

I think that this is it. Whereas in fact badly-thought-out sex with someone you don’t know or like that well: often not as much fun as well-practiced sex with someone you do. Real life ain’t the movies.

Douthat reminds me of the ex of a friend of mine (forgot his name long ago, everybody just called him “dickhead”). They were in a nonmonogamous relationship, and that spoiled things for him because what apparently got him off was cheating. Sex with someone else wasn’t taboo, so he would swear that he wasn’t going to have sex with a particular other person and then go do it…

Now that’s what a New York Times columnist would consider hot.

Comment #72: paul  on  06/30  at  12:19 AM

Well, seeker, to continue our offtopic anglophilia,

Diana really seemed like she was in love with Charles.  She was just 19.  Those engagement interviews are so painful, where she’s just moony over him, and he’s saying shit like “sure, we’re in love.  Whatever that means.”

Not once did he think of her as anything other than a brood mare that matched the proper requirements of nobility and virginity.  She made the mistake of thinking that he loved her and that she would have a better marriage than her parents.  The ‘russet boy’ comment was the end of those dreams.

According to Douthat, are they boring or not?  They are very traditional, so…exciting and passionate?  But they’re BRITISH! 

He’s educated.  She’s not.  Not a “companionate” marriage.  So…passion?  A rousing success?

Comment #73: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/30  at  12:20 AM

Point taken. And of course the fantasy of pure patriarchy appeals—-sex and housework at home, but some on the side to liven it up. Cake and eating it.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/30  at  12:21 AM

Well, I don’t know if that’s healthy, but cheating is certainly common enough that it seems to be a dumb thing to end a relationship over.

I haven’t been cheated on, but that’s only because I’m not oriented toward long-term monogamous relationships in the first place. However, I have ended things over willful and on-going deception in general, which is my only real problem with sexual/romantic cheating. Life’s too bloody short to deal with grifters who are constantly lying to you (and usually themselves) about who they really are.

Comment #75: Gracchus.  on  06/30  at  12:32 AM

Well, I don’t know if that’s healthy, but cheating is certainly common enough that it seems to be a dumb thing to end a relationship over.

It’s the lying.

If you want to screw someone else, let me know first.  I’ll decide if I still want to be with you or not.

It’s not like people really get away with it.  They are found out, and either the other partner decides to live with it or rips the relationship apart.  It’s never the same, though.  And if it were the same, you wouldn’t be cheating in the first place.

So just tell your partner.  You’re only delaying the inevitable.  I prefer being in a monogamous relationship to dating a bunch of people; always have, so I’d probably say see ya later.  But other people aren’t wired that way, and might not mind.

But lying about it?  Who needs that?  Lying, sneaking around, creating a bunch of unnecessary drama?

I guess it’s not boring, but it sure doesn’t sound like fun, either.

Comment #76: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/30  at  01:24 AM

Lying, sneaking around, creating a bunch of unnecessary drama?

I think I was finally ready for an adult relationship when I got sick of having to create drama around every relationship just to keep it going.  (Not even really big drama, like cheating, just the occasional screaming fight.)  Having a nice, peaceful relationship with someone I liked and could talk to sounded much more appealing than frickin’ drama all the damn time, sitting by the phone wondering if he was going to call.

Who knows, maybe someday I’ll decide that knowing that my husband will call when he says he will or that he actually will remember to pick milk up at the store when I ask him to is boring, but right now, it’s so much better than the alternative.

Comment #77: Mnemosyne  on  06/30  at  03:00 AM

But other people aren’t wired that way, and might not mind.

They also might decide they’re entitled to have sex with someone else too.  Many adulterers want their partners to be faithful.  It’s the old “I’m not married but my wife is” deal.

Comment #78: DonnaDiva  on  06/30  at  03:01 AM

the exact same behaviors are this: He’s saying that the story of Mark Sanford stepping out on his boring marriage and Sandra Tsing Loh stepping out on her boring marriage are evidence of the vast differences between the two. Because they did the same thing (step out) for the same reason (boring marriages).

It makes perfect sense if you assume that men are the only people who count.  Loh’s husband is the one in the “boring” blue marriage that consigned him to risotto drudgery, while Sanford is the “exciting” red-stater who stepped out on dullness to seek his true alive wonderful awesome passion.  The fact that Loh did exactly the same thing as Sanford doesn’t count, because she’s a woman.  If you only compare the roles of the men, the idea that the identical marriage situations are somehow opposite begins to make sense.

Comment #79: Kathleen F.  on  06/30  at  03:57 AM

I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but this read to me as a tad classist. Not all of us with ‘low-class jobs’ hate our lives; some of us don’t just like jumping through hoops 24/7 and would rather devote our energy to our lives than our careers. YMMV.

Oh, it does and it is, but I think I was clear that I was speaking of the subset of people whose both jobs and lives suck.  And if your job is as low-class as you say it is, you probably know some of the same people I do.  40-hours-a-week-to-pay-for-your-real-life is fine, and some days I really wish I’d gone that route.  Some people lack education or interests, though, and for entertainment fill the after work hours with poor decisions and lots of exciting personal drama, which is probably what Douchewad was thinking about when he waxed poetic about the passion of the lower classes.  These would, not coincidentally, be your least reliable coworkers, the people for whom no-call no-show policies were designed.

You won’t get me to fully retract that statement because I know too many of these people.  I’m not saying rich, educated people can’t be just as foolish, but there is more of an incentive for them to hide the crazy at work.

Comment #80: Kyso K  on  06/30  at  06:45 AM

What’s really odd is that he seems to be holding up marriages of college-educated people as the ideal (although I could be wrong; he doesn’t make much sense).  However, college-educated people are much more likely than the rest of the population to be liberal instead of conservative.  Or maybe he hates those marriages because he thinks they’re boring just for actually, you know, working.  Does he think that marriage is better when someone cheats (as long as they’re conservative)?  I am really confused, as I’m sure Douthat is himself.  He seems to be putting random words together and hoping they appeal to someone.  Usually conservative speak is full of codewords and dog whistles, but this goes far beyond even that.

Comment #81: bananacat  on  06/30  at  09:57 AM

Amanda, why are you oppressing the Misogyny Fetishists? They may be the largest single kink out there

(Seriously I tried to read this Douthat article and wound up going, bibble bibble bibble, as that seemed to make an equal amount of sense. Thanks for translating his gibberish into American smile

Comment #82: firefall  on  06/30  at  10:37 AM

So he’s going to stop whining about the elitists and their degenerate homosexual 24/7 orgies that destroy the family?

Comment #83: mythago  on  06/30  at  10:44 AM

What’s really odd is that he seems to be holding up marriages of college-educated people as the ideal (although I could be wrong; he doesn’t make much sense).

He and his wife are college-educated people, so that part isn’t odd. Expecting his ambitious, conservative wife to act like Britney Spears or a porn starlet—that’s odd (or, at least, unrealistic).

Comment #84: Gracchus.  on  06/30  at  12:05 PM

What Douthat may be stumbling around is that “conservatives” tend to have a Manichean outlook. A “Haloes-n-Horns” worldview.

That is, you’re either a insanely pious and morally strict Christian who sacrifices all for a stable patriarchal nuclear family, or you’re Britney Spears drunk out of your gourd and flashing your coochie at the cameras.

Actually, you’re both. And you actually admire both, though you know you’re only supposed to endorse the “Haloes” side of things.

In short, genuine, good, true, salt-of-the-earth folks live a dangerous and unhealthy shizoid life of swinging between incompatible ethical extremes.

If you live a balanced, moderate life—a life guided by reason, with moderated discipline and tempered indulgence—you’re somehow Unamerican, elitist, not a good and trustworthy person.

I don’t know how we get rid of the insanity of the Haloes-n-Horns outlook. We need to, because it’s killing us as a nation.

Comment #85: wapsie  on  06/30  at  12:14 PM

Oh, it does and it is, but I think I was clear that I was speaking of the subset of people whose both jobs and lives suck.  And if your job is as low-class as you say it is, you probably know some of the same people I do.

Re-reading your comment, I can see what you’re saying, but the attitude that poor people are low-class slobs who lack the self-control to keep it together at work is one that I’ve encountered on a disappointing number of liberal and even feminist blogs, and I guess that’s sort of how I read your comment.

(I’m a housekeeper taking night classes to be a mechanic; it doesn’t get much more low-class than that tongue laugh)

Comment #86: aebhel  on  06/30  at  01:24 PM

Hey Everyone,

Check out Sanford’s first performance on the road to his subconsciously desired Broadway career:

http://www.capsteps.com/sounds/sanford-argentina.mp3

Comment #87: exholt  on  06/30  at  01:44 PM

Douchehat wore a hat and he had a job and he brought home the bacon so that nobody knew.

Comment #88: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  02:32 PM

For those of you who might have been in any doubt that Douthat couldn’t have a coherent thought or marshal an organized point, those of you who think that all of his published writing’s diffuse loads of nothing are, in fact, a hidden something, I present proof to the contrary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGdLqsDd8M&feature=related

Comment #89: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  03:51 PM

Douhat graduated magna cum laude.  From this we can draw one of two conclusions:

* He used to be able to present a coherent argument, but has wholly lost the knack.

*  His professors were every bit as indulgent of his privileged incoherence as his subsequent employers have been.

*  His now-wife wrote his papers.

I vote for the middle one.  I rather doubt that Mr. Douthat of New Haven CT, graduate of Hamden Hall was held to quite the same rigorous standards that others were.

Comment #90: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  04:08 PM

Quite aside from anything else, I consider cooking gourmet food to be a perfectly reasonable form of seduction.  It would work on me.

Other than that, I have no idea what he is even saying.  The column is so vapid and incoherent.

Comment #91: snowmentality  on  06/30  at  05:55 PM

I don’t know, seeker. Can I pick both options 2 and 3? I would guess that it depended on the circumstances.

Also, I notice that she graduated summa cum laude to his magna cum laude. I bet that still chaps his ass a little.

Comment #92: Liz212  on  06/30  at  11:27 PM

“Under the bed is a variety pack of condoms in a little basket. Some women’s mag told your lady friend that all this was cool, so she thinks it’s hot. You know it’s not!”

Having had my fair share of acquaintances with a penchant for oh-so-scorching-hot hook-ups with partners who were rather indifferent to contraception and disease prevention, I’d have to agree.  There’s nothing sexier than having a month (or two, or six, or two hundred) of your life getting turned into a godforsaken mess by STDs/STD-scares, paternity tests, and unplanned pregnancies.  This is probably why “Debbie Does 20% of Your Paycheck” is so popular with the college set these days.

Comment #93: preying mantis  on  07/01  at  11:49 AM

Birth control is an aphrodisiac for me.  It’s very sensual when I put a condom on a man.  Also, the fear of STDs and unplanned pregnancy are a major turn-off, especially for woman.  The removal of that turn off makes sex much better for me.  The only thing that is more of a turn-off than the fear of STDs/pregnancy is a whiny man begging me constantly to have sex without a condom.  Guess what?  Movies, TV, and porn aren’t real.  All those people who you think aren’t having sex or who you think are having boring sex are probably having it way more often than you are.  The ones who brag about it the most get it the least, and vice versa.  Playing golf, getting good grades, or working hard does not preclude people from having a very active sex life.  How do you think we celebrate the end of finals week or the end of a big project?

Comment #94: bananacat  on  07/01  at  12:23 PM

the only thing on your mind now is to get in, get off, and get away before you throw up.

If this is your view of sex, I feel deep sympathy for you.  If it’s just contraception that makes you feel sick, then I recommend seeing a counselor to get over your issues.  It’s fairly common to have these deep issues when you grow up with so much conservative propaganda about contraception, but it’s certainly not healthy.  I wonder if the reason that female-initiated contraception makes you so sick is that it makes you think about women as actually being sexual, wanting sex, and wanting to enjoy sex without consequences that men never even have to worry about.  The simple fact that you would even continue with sex that makes you want to vomit is really telling.  Get help.  Your life and your sex life will be better off.

Comment #95: bananacat  on  07/01  at  12:38 PM

It’s late Friday night and the room is spinning. On top of you is a drooling 1st year who’s the poster child for the freshman 15. Strewn about the room is a bunch of contraceptive pamphlets, buttons and such. Under the bed is a variety pack of condoms in a little basket. Some women’s mag told your lady friend that all this was cool, so she thinks it’s hot. You know it’s not! You feel like a Bangkok tourist and the only thing on your mind now is to get in, get off, and get away before you throw up.

...wow. Okay, so you had bad sex. Happens to the best of us, especially in college when we’re drunk and inexperienced. How is bad sex + the possibility of STDs or an unplanned pregnancy sexier than just plain old garden-variety bad sex? I mean, do you think that if she didn’t use any kind of contraceptives that the sex would magically become better? I don’t even understand what you’re trying to advocate, here.

If you don’t want to have random drunken sex with strangers that you don’t like and aren’t attracted to, I fully support that decision. But stop pretending that has anything to do with contraceptives one way or another. I get that some guys don’t like the way condoms smell, feel, whatever. Sadly enough, some girls don’t like having to run down to the health center every time they have a drunken hookup, so that’s just a compromise you’re going to have to make until you’re at a point where you can discuss other contraceptive options. But don’t act like girls are supposed to pretend to be blushing virgins who have no idea what contraceptives are, and don’t disrespect girls who are making sensible choices to protect themselves.

tl:dr - Russian roulette doesn’t improve bad sex.

Comment #96: aebhel  on  07/01  at  01:34 PM

RE: snowmentality:

Quite aside from anything else, I consider cooking gourmet food to be a perfectly reasonable form of seduction.  It would work on me.

YES.

And if you have to “practice” seduction, well…

Comment #97: Becky  on  07/01  at  02:41 PM

I don’t expect nor desire a blushing virgin, but unlike you I can tell the difference between over the top and reasonable.

And you’re the one to decide whether the amount of sex another person has is “reasonable”? You can have all the sex partners you want, I’m sure, but god forbid you don’t get to feel special because you’re not some random girl’s one and only. I have no doubt she’s had a lot of partners way better than you, and some with bigger dicks, too.

I wore the condoms that I brought, not some expired, presumptous shit laying under a ladies bed.

Presumptuous? You actually think women don’t expect to get laid, and by guys other than you? Is it “presumptuous” for you to be carrying condoms around in hopes that you might get to use them? Seriously, the more you say, the creepier you sound. I really wonder how anyone ever enjoys sex with someone as obnoxious, controlling, and cluelessly boring as you.

Comment #98: junk science  on  07/01  at  05:34 PM

Finally, contraception is not women’s work. I mean it’s great to just waltz up into a bedroom and say “Hey Baby, you got me those 1 micron thins for me, right?” The spectrum of Birth Control is a shared responsibility, but condoms are the responsibility of the partner with the wang.

I think you’re the one with the respect problem.

That’s pretty fucking rich. Contraception is a substantially bigger problem for the partner who’s going to have to either carry or abort any mistakes, and the last time I checked the instance of unwanted pregnancies in men is pretty low.

Okay, I don’t think contraception is sexy. I don’t think condoms are a turn on. I do think they’re a reasonable thing for a sexually active adult of either gender to have lying around. When a guy has condoms in his bedside table, I think that he’s a responsible, prepared individual. When a girl has condoms in her bedside table, I think she’s a responsible, prepared individual. If a guy has a specific preference regarding condoms, he’s more than welcome to bring and use his own, but I’ve never liked having to put a kibosh on the proceedings just because neither of us thought to come prepared. Unlike you, I don’t assume that ‘prepared’ means ‘fucked everybody under the sun and a few of them twice’—although you only seem to think that applies to women, since you’re not passing judgment on men who have condoms in their possession.

So how do you decide what’s reasonable, anyway? I mean, I really am curious. Is ‘over the top’ any girl who’s had more sexual partners than you? Is there a specific number and if so, what is that number? Because I’ve had lots more sexual partners than my husband. I’ve never become pregnant and I don’t have any diseases—probably because I always made sure to have condoms on hand when I was planning to become sexually involved with somebody—and he doesn’t have a problem with it because he’s not hung up on sex as something that you only get to do with a certain number of people.

I don’t have a respect problem. I just don’t think protecting myself from diseases and pregnancy is presumptuous. Anybody who has a problem with that is and always has been more than welcome to stay the hell out of my bed.

Comment #99: aebhel  on  07/01  at  06:25 PM

wrongsideofthetracks is just here to let us know we were right about passion not being equivalent to poor decision making.  Thanks, wrong.  I feel much better about my sex life now.

That said, let it be known on the interwebs: condom technology has improved greatly in the last few decades.  Like razors, you now have endless options in sizes, textures, and materials.  Newer non-latex ultrathins feel pretty much like nothing at all (it took me and my last partner some time to get used to them, because we kept on thinking the condom broke.  They were good.)  Complaining about condoms will at best just get you more of this kind of advice and soon will just be telling us how old you are, or possibly how long it’s been since you’ve had sex.

Aebhel, I think the other commenter was talking about how men should be just as invested in birth control as women.  If it comes to an abortion, yes, it’s primarily the woman’t problem, but there’s no reason it has if everyone involved takes their precautions seriously.  Besides, what woman doesn’t look favorably on a guy willing to take responsibility for his own health and future?  A guy who buys his share of condoms with you was probably that responsible with his last girlfriends, so right off the bat you can relax a little.  I definitely prefer guys who give off that kind of responsible vibe- then I can just take them at their word rather than demand a recent clean STD workup, in writing.  Wrongsideofthetracks thinks just having the condoms is unsexy - imagine a world where every woman thought every guy was like that and took her precautions accordingly.  “Ok, you’re cute, but there’s a seven-day waiting period until I get the bloodwork back.  Come back next Friday and hope I’m equally trashed.”

Comment #100: Kyso K  on  07/02  at  09:48 AM
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