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Dude Nation turns Supreme Court stupid

One of the major problems with lack of female representation in Congress and the courts is that even when men are generally liberal and try to get it, the boys club mentality seems to set in and infect their ability to act like compassionate adults who grasp that women are full human beings instead of slightly comical pieces of meat.  (Of course there’s always exceptions—-shout out to Henry Waxman!)  Ruth Bader Ginsburg must have retired to her office today and spouted off like a cliched cop in a B movie, “I’m too old for this shit,” which is lately a common problem for her as the sole voice on the court to consistently and loudly attempt to remind her fellows that women are people

Today’s source of massive disappointment is Stephen Breyer.  The court was looking at the case of 13-year-old Savana Redding who was traumatically strip-searched (which started her on a path of mental health problems that led to her dropping out of school) because some little brat who was actually caught with drugs on her claimed, falsely, that Redding had ibuprofen on her.  The liar was not punished for her part in this.  Feminists can immediately see what’s going on, as we’re more than a little attuned to the way that authoritarian pigs have more than a little bit of the sexually sadistic streak that means they look for every opportunity to humiliate teenage girls with nudity.  Unfortunately, getting the dudes on the Supreme Court to understand this is an uphill battle. 

Adam Wolf, the ACLU lawyer who represents Redding, explains that “the Fourth Amendment does not countenance the rummaging on or around a 13-year-old girl’s naked body.” Wolf explains that he is arguing for a “two-step framework,” wherein schools can use a lower standard to search “backpacks, pencil cases, bookbags” but a higher standard when you “require a 13-year-old girl to take off her pants, her shirt, move around her bra so she reveals her breasts, and the same thing with her underpants to reveal her pelvic area.” This leads Justice Stephen Breyer to query whether this is all that different from asking Redding to “change into a swimming suit or your gym clothes,” because, “why is this a major thing to say strip down to your underclothes, which children do when they change for gym?”

This leads Ginsburg to sputter—in what I have come to think of as her Lilly Ledbetter voice—“what was done in the case … it wasn’t just that they were stripped to their underwear! They were asked to shake their bra out, to stretch the top of their pants and shake that out!” Nobody but Ginsburg seems to comprehend that the only locker rooms in which teenage girls strut around, bored but fabulous in their underwear, are to be found in porno movies. For the rest of us, the middle-school locker room was a place for hastily removing our bras without taking off our T-shirts.

You see this sort of thinking all the time, but usually in more obvious sexual assault cases, where rape apologists will imply that because a woman had sex before she was raped, she was obligated to take all comers.  This is a matter of reducing women to the physicality of their bodies, as if context had no bearing on nudity.  One wonders if a boy had been required to pull his penis out of his underwear and shake it in front of the teacher if that would have seemed different than the practice of using public urinals to Breyer.  I think it’s quite likely.  What’s traumatic about strip searches and sexual assault isn’t that someone touched or saw something previously untouched or unseen.  It’s the horror of having someone use your nudity and your sexuality as a weapon to degrade and humiliate you.  And anyone who’s been subject to the routine degradation and humiliation dished out by sadistic school administrators has a pretty damn good idea of what was going on here.

The conservative branch of the seemed to think the entire situation is hilarious, and so, all taken together, we shouldn’t be expecting justice for Redding.  Unfortunately, this also means that sadistic school administrators will feel all the more empowered to use hysterical concerns about drugs to terrorize and humiliate public school kids.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:51 PM • (112) Comments

This leads Justice Stephen Breyer to query whether this is all that different from asking Redding to “change into a swimming suit or your gym clothes,” because, “why is this a major thing to say strip down to your underclothes, which children do when they change for gym?”

Because the gym teacher doesn’t stand and watch you like a hawk as you change your clothes.  If s/he did, they’d probably be arrested, or at least reprimanded.  But I guess that when it comes to dangerous, dangerous ibuprofen, any action can be justified.

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  09:05 PM

Oh, and I realize this is the point of the comic, but ibuprofen doesn’t do jack to your liver (though it can mess up your stomach lining).  That’s acetaminophen, aka Tylenol.

Comment #2: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  09:12 PM

Wrong! Acetaminophen (Tylenol and other brands) is bad for your liver, if you are a heavy drinker and you take as little as 4-fold the recommended maximum dose at one sitting.

Comment #3: NancyP  on  04/22  at  09:14 PM

Who doesn’t like to party with ibuprofen?  That’s how we hung in high school—-we’d each take 1-2 Advil every 4-6 hours and get high off the feeling of having that inflammation recede, causing pain relief.  Beats acid or cocaine any day.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/22  at  09:15 PM

I think that ultimately this is just another example of the difficulty members of dude nation have with the concept of consent, at least when it comes to people they look down on. Add to that a bunch of old men’s fantasies about 13-year-old girls and what they deserve for being so nubile (we only know the porn-viewing habits of one supreme-court justice, but we can extrapolate from the video records of another leading candidate) and zing!

I think it’s even money whether they would have thought it was OK to make a 13-year-old boy pull out his penis—the deciding factor is that any man who sees another man’s penis outside a locker room is automatically gay, and you can’t have gay school administrators…

Comment #5: paul  on  04/22  at  09:17 PM

We already know Alito’s position on strip searching young girls.

Comment #6: keshmeshi  on  04/22  at  09:30 PM

Wrong! Acetaminophen (Tylenol and other brands) is bad for your liver, if you are a heavy drinker

How many heavily drinking 13 year olds are there!?

This whole thing is sexism combined with ridiculous “zero tolerance” school rules on all drugs to create one horrendous situation.

Comment #7: Ben D.  on  04/22  at  09:35 PM

If my teenage daughter needed or wanted ibuprofen or acetaminophen for cramps, I’d tell her to put it in her glass case or an empty contact lens case, and swallow it surreptitiously.  And if they tried to strip search, they’d have to do so over my dead body. 

Great post, Amanda.

Comment #8: Susanne  on  04/22  at  09:58 PM

Thank ceiling cat Ginsburg is on the Supreme Court so at least a woman’s perspective could be heard. 

I recall being really uncomfortable dressing in the locker room with other girls in middle school.  Especially since I was bullied by some mean girls for having the audacity to grow breasts and armpit hair earlier than everyone else in class.  I can’t imagine having to go through a strip search.  I thought the scoliosis checks (which involved standing in a line with other girls in our bras while having to bend over for a spine check) were humiliating enough.

Comment #9: Cat Ion  on  04/22  at  10:06 PM

What’s traumatic about strip searches and sexual assault isn’t that someone touched or saw something previously untouched or unseen.  It’s the horror of having someone use your nudity and your sexuality as a weapon to degrade and humiliate you.

This.  I really hope Obama appoints another woman to the Supreme Court, because Breyer and Co clearly aren’t getting it.

Comment #10: FashionablyEvil  on  04/22  at  10:09 PM

There was another scary quote uttered during the arguments:

A lawyer for the Safford Unified School District urged the justices to rule that school officials have broad authority to search students. The vice principal in this case had been told some students had pills, and they were to be passed around at lunchtime. Based on that report, “he was entitled to search any place where contraband might reasonably be found,” said Matthew Wright, the school district’s lawyer.

What about a “body cavity search?” asked Justice Antonin Scalia.

Wright replied that no school official would undertake such a search, but he insisted it would be legal.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-scotus-strip-search0421,0,2211272.story

Well, I guess we know what’s next, don’t we?

Comment #11: Cat Ion  on  04/22  at  10:22 PM

If her father had taken a gun and shot the idiot sadists who did this to this girl, I bet we would see a very different tone coming from the right wing.

Comment #12: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  10:33 PM

I read the Breyer exchange a little differently than Slate’s writer did. After the bit he quotes, Breyer said “How bad is this, underclothes? That’s what I’m trying to get at. I’m asking because I don’t know.” From this, and from several other passages, I think Breyer is legitimately trying to get a handle on what a girl’s mental state would be in this situation.

Also, responding to Cat Ion, the Baltimore Sun pretty seriously misrepresented the school attorney’s position on cavity searches.

I’m going to be posting about both of these issues in more detail on my blog tomorrow.

Comment #13: Angus Johnston  on  04/22  at  10:43 PM

Did you see this “sexting” article yesterday? Priceless quote:

teens to line up if they wanted to view the photos, which were printed out onto index cards. As the 17-year-old who took semi-nude self-portraits waited in line, she realized that Mr. Skumanick and other investigators had viewed the pictures. When the adults began to crowd around Mr. Skumanick, the 17-year-old worried they could see her photo and recalls she said, “I think the worst punishment is knowing that all you old guys saw me naked. I just think you guys are all just perverts.”

Comment #14: brainz  on  04/22  at  10:45 PM

Also, Breyer was under the impression that there was a factual dispute on whether the strip search involved exposing Redding’s breasts and pubis. His question was basically, “if, as the school says, this search only involved stripping down to underwear, with no nudity beyond that, how bad is it?”

Comment #15: Angus Johnston  on  04/22  at  10:46 PM

What they are missing, Angus, is the simple matter of power dynamics.  When you change in a locker room full of other students, there is no coercion involved and everyone is in the same situation.  Furthermore, you are not being searched - you are changing.  This holds regardless of whether she was required to expose her breasts and pubis.  That threat and that invasion make it a 4th amendment issue - unreasonable search.

Comment #16: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  10:53 PM

I thought the scoliosis checks (which involved standing in a line with other girls in our bras while having to bend over for a spine check) were humiliating enough.

We were lucky—my school didn’t make you take your shirt off.  The nurse would push it up over your back while you were bent over so she could see your spine, but we didn’t have to stand around in our underwear.

Comment #17: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  10:55 PM

The sickness of looking through the world in terms of sadistic compusion and ham-fisted demonstrations of power and privilege leads to 13 year old girls being strip searched.

I know that if something like this happened to my religious cousins, the above scenario (sieve-like administrators full of holes and metal shrapnel) would be the likely outcome.

Comment #18: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  10:56 PM

Kate, I don’t read Breyer as saying that it’s not a big deal. I read him as asking, sincerely, how big of a deal it is. At one point the ACLU attorney tells the justices that psychologists have studied just this question—what the effects of strip-searches on adolescents are—and Breyer follows up on that a few minutes after the exchange the Slate writer quotes.

Breyer asks whether psychologists believe adolescents are traumatized by being made to strip to their underwear, and the ACLU attorney says that yes, they do. I don’t see any basis in the transcript for assuming that Breyer is going to disregard that when it comes time to vote on this case.

Comment #19: Angus Johnston  on  04/22  at  11:01 PM

Dude, if you’re going to steal my name, at least spell it right.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  11:16 PM

I am getting a kick out of the juxtoposition of “grow up” followed by “please pull this dildo out of me” under a stolen handle.

Comment #21: SarahMC  on  04/22  at  11:21 PM

Last I checked, didn’t a fisheye lens allow you to see just about everything around you from every angle?

One would think that would lead to enlightened conclusions, now wouldn’t one.

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  11:23 PM

You know, I think I’d rather pull that stick out of you and ask for a stick rule violation ban.

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  11:24 PM

Who is this asshole who is trolling the site with stolen “parody” names of frequent posters?  Why not just have the courage to argue with people honestly? 

Fucking coward.

Comment #24: Captain Bathrobe  on  04/22  at  11:29 PM

angus, your defense is only making breyer look more clueless. if a grown man has to ASK how bad it could be for an adult male authority, a virtual stranger, making a minor STRIP, he is utterly brain dead and possesses no ability to consider other people. but again this is privilege. when you’ve never been a teenage girl, maybe you don’t know. but i should think you’d be observant enough of the world to make an educated guess. for those who have been teenage girls, there is no question here. at best, this would have been humiliating. at worst, terrifying.

Comment #25: chibi  on  04/22  at  11:43 PM

Mnemosyne, that’s the beauty of having to register. you can spot the trolls since they CAN’T steal your name. and boy are they fucking brainless.

Comment #26: chibi  on  04/22  at  11:44 PM

i’m amused…or something…at the irony of a fucking troll saying ‘grow up’ to anyone. lol.

Comment #27: chibi  on  04/22  at  11:45 PM

I wonder what today’s Supreme Court Coffee Hour was like:

GINSBURG: “Tony, would you consider it a violation of your rights if I strip-searched you for the last danish?”

Comment #28: Maureen  on  04/22  at  11:48 PM

I don’t know about anyone else, but changing for PE in middle school was incredibly anxiety-producing for me.  Being strip searched for possibly possessing ibuprofen (which I carried with me ALL THE TIME) would have felt like the grossest of violations for all the reasons Amanda et al have stated.

The fact that Breyer could even make a comparison between changing in a locker room with being strip searched is part of the rape culture.  That he sees female consent as a matter of semantics is the problem. That he is “trying to understand” is really no different than the frequent “well, if I do this is it still rape?” discussions.

Comment #29: history_mom  on  04/22  at  11:52 PM

I’m male and when I was in school I would have died if this had happened to me. I was very shy as a teenager. I changed quickly in gym class and I didn’t shower there, I waited till I got home. I was thin, but I still had a hard time even being shirtless back then. I don’t know why I was that shy, but I can say that being strip-searched would have destroyed me, especially if they had made me open my underwear so they could look in. Yikes.

I’m 44 now, and the shyness is mostly gone. But I still would blanch at being strip searched. Just thought I’d mention that some of us guys would have been just as traumatized as the girls in this instance.

And why in the heck was the school searching for Ibuprofen? Man, I always carried pain pills as a teenager cause I got lots of headaches. I was quite capable of taking them myself. The world is just crazy.

Comment #30: acoolerclimate  on  04/23  at  12:06 AM

For me, having been raised in locker rooms and raised in the North West, changing in a locker room wasn’t a big deal at all. 

Having to strip for school officials would have been horribly traumatic.

I may come at this from the opposite angle as those who were anxious about changing in public, but that difference simply underscores that there is a HUGE difference between the two situations.  A strip search is a traumatic invasion of privacy and an unreasonable search in this context, and that violation doesn’t hinge on whether you spend your gym changing period hiding in the bathroom stall or running around half naked snapping people’s butts with your bra or wet swimsuit.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  12:07 AM

Here is what I completely and utterly do not understand about this case, and maybe school law is a whole lot different where Savanna lives, but WHY on EARTH would a school want the RESPONSIBILITY of being able to perform a strip search?  Why would they risk the liability, such an obviously liability?  And in the case of something actually dangerous (i.e. not Advil) why would they want to have school personnel responsible and not the police? 

Aside from the obvious point that this is an outrageous offense against this child’s person, and the provocation for it nonsensical, why is this school spending what must be an absolute fortune to pursue this case to the Supreme Court for a right that no administrator in his/her right mind would want?

Because let’s say they win, and now the school has the right to perform strip searches, body cavity searches, hell, CAT scans, if they want.  What happens when they screw up?  Whose responsibility it is? 

If there is a danger so great that you think it calls for a strip search, then what you need is the police, not the school secretary.  And the police, of course, have laws they have to follow and Constitutional limits on whom, what and how they can search.

Comment #32: MadLibrarian  on  04/23  at  12:12 AM

I remember high school locker room. We started out facing our own lockers, barely glancing at each other enough to avoid elbowing & such, barely speaking. As we grew more used to the environment and the girls around us, a few words would be exchanged. As seniors, we were okay with talking about wishing we could tan like Neighbor, but Neighbor wishes she had more muscle tone. And that was with us being equals, and in a school environment that was anti-bullying.

I told my DH I think a 13 year old girl being stripped search would feel like she’d been molested. It’s invasive, intrusive, demeaning, and predatory.

Comment #33: Samantha Vimes  on  04/23  at  12:24 AM

When I was thirteen, I was “volunteered” for this medical study at a med school for a rare syndrome I was thought to have had. For a week, I endured eye exams, blood tests, x-rays, other medical procedures that were by no means fun. But one day, I was asked to go to this room where their was just a desk and a tripod with camera facing a blank wall. Two men, doctors or med techs of some sort were there. They simply told me to take off all of my clothes so that they could take pictures of my joints.

I was horrified and broke down into tears. They then acquiesced a bit and said I could keep my bra and underpants on. I still refused. Finally, they took pictures of me fully clothed, pushing up my pant legs and shirt sleeves. It was one of the most embarrassing and humiliating experiences of my childhood.

And at least I was able to say I wouldn’t do that. This girl had no recourse. I think it is horrible. My experience in that room, for medical reasons and even though I was able to refuse to take off my clothes, was not even comparable to me to undressing in the gym locker room.

Context means something when you actually think the people who own those bodies are human.

Comment #34: Lexie  on  04/23  at  12:30 AM

Another thing I don’t understand about this case is that i thought it was illegal to strip search a minor without parental consent and/or presence.

Comment #35: Ashley  on  04/23  at  12:48 AM

MadLib, Ashley, it was noted during oral arguments that nearly 200 jurisdictions have banned strip-searching students in schools. This wasn’t one of those jurisdictions.

Chibi, I don’t see myself as defending Breyer. Mostly I’m just arguing that his questions don’t necessarily indicate that he’s likely to vote the wrong way on this case. I think his questions are far more clueless than hostile.

Comment #36: Angus Johnston  on  04/23  at  12:55 AM

He’s old enough to know better, Angus.

Comment #37: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  01:11 AM

Chibi at 10:43 nailed it.
In what kind of universe does a *Supreme Court “Justice”* have to ask anything like, “How bad is this, underclothes? That’s what I’m trying to get at. I’m asking because I don’t know.”
That’s a line for a time-traveller, an alien, or an AI-equipped robot in a second-rate sci-fi flick.
It is not something that any adult in America should have to ask—let alone someone who has an iota of authority over any other human being.
If an in-law said anything like this to you, would you ever leave them alone with a child again?

Comment #38: smartalek  on  04/23  at  01:20 AM

I *never* took off my shirt for gym.

Never.

I was painfully modest. Tall. Super super thin. Never grew breasts ever. And hey! Gorilla hair!

A strip search for frakkin’ ibuprofen????? Of a 13 year old girl?????

I would have stroked out.

I hate these people.

Comment #39: teac  on  04/23  at  01:33 AM

Angus:

Mostly I’m just arguing that his questions don’t necessarily indicate that he’s likely to vote the wrong way on this case. I think his questions are far more clueless than hostile.

OK. Shouldn’t we all have a pretty big problem with letting such an idiot take part in the making of major legal decisions?

In fact, doesn’t it make Breyer look even worse if he doesn’t have any sort of ideological or sociological reason for asking such a question? If he really is just a clueless old man? I mean, say what you want about the tenets of patriarchal misogyny, but at least it’s an ethos.

Comment #40: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  04/23  at  01:44 AM

I thought scoliosis screening was torture. I didn’t want the school nurse touching me, with the whole line of fourth graders there, and the PE teacher telling me to bend over. I can’t remember if we were separated into boys and girls. Probably. I think we were told to wear bathing suits. Considering we had to have a yearly physical to go to school anyway, why was this necessary? Presumably wouldn’t my physician be watching for scoliosis too, especially since my grandmother had it or something similar? I never asked, but she had a hump that I’m pretty sure got worse in her old age. It might have had something to do with osteoporosis.

Changing for gym wasn’t that horrible. I was pretty average in development, neither early nor late, and I was short, but neither large-breasted nor flat. I didn’t have a lot of body hair so I didn’t have that embarrassment, and back then there was one Victoria’s Secret at the upscale mall, but cute cotton bikini panties and a matching bra were the most exotic anyone was going to get. I’d never heard of anyone wearing a thong. There just wasn’t too much to show off or be that embarrassed about. I had body insecurities, of course, but changing for gym was just a normal thing we had to do. Fortunately we didn’t have to shower and I don’t remember changing into sports bras back then, so it wasn’t stripping naked, just a fast switch from school clothes to t-shirt and shorts and back again after class. It probably helped that I played after school sports so every day year-round I was accustomed to changing in front of my teammates, and for gym class whichever of those teammates were in my class were the ones I chose my locker near.

Changing in front of parents, though, even my own, teachers, or any other adults would have been humiliation beyond any other. We made our same-sex coaches wait to come in the locker room until we were all dressed. Now as an adult who plays sports, not only do I change with male team members in the same room, but on women’s teams with male coaches, we don’t care if they come in while we are dressing. They get embarrassed and won’t come until we are all dressed. Adults do not have the same hang-ups and do not always remember how shy teenage girls can be around adults even when they are not around each other.

Comment #41: one jewish dyke  on  04/23  at  01:44 AM

The fact that Breyer could even make a comparison between changing in a locker room with being strip searched is part of the rape culture.

Is it possible Breyer was asking “Why is this a major thing?” as a means of setting up the girl’s lawyers to say “This is a major thing for the following 28 obvious reasons, so everyone should listen really fcking closely”?  Especially if some of the other justices were acting uncomfortable and/or juvenile… it could be a professorial technique rather than a genuine statement of his true feelings. 

(I know I’ve done similar things in class:  “And they’re bad because…?” prompts the answer “They’re bad because…,” and then discussion moves forward with clearer statements on the table.) 

But I haven’t read the original piece and all I know of the justice system I learned on TV.  It could well be as bad as it sounds.

Comment #42: FlipYrWhig  on  04/23  at  01:53 AM

Oh, and I also didn’t like changing for gym class—and I probably would have had a complete nervous breakdown if, as my father had warned me would be the case for years, showering was mandatory for us the way it had been for him.  Brrr.

Comment #43: FlipYrWhig  on  04/23  at  01:55 AM

If there is a danger so great that you think it calls for a strip search, then what you need is the police.

@ MadLibrarian, I completely agree.  It makes no sense for schools to want to do this, unless it’s to create a climate of disquiet and intimidation.

Comment #44: FlipYrWhig  on  04/23  at  02:01 AM

The transcript is up at http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts.html

Comment #45: wnoise  on  04/23  at  02:04 AM

Adults do not have the same hang-ups

Um, they don’t?  I guess I never really recovered.  I still don’t want to see anybody and really don’t want anybody to see me.  Thank god for breakaway warmup pants.

Comment #46: FlipYrWhig  on  04/23  at  02:07 AM

Changing in locker rooms is a problem for me personally as that’s where I got beat up the most when I was in school.

Even if I didn’t I’d be enraged by the behavior of the male justices of the Supreme Court, because it’s fucking wrong to strip-search any student based solely on the self-serving accusation of someone who actually had been caught with contraband.  The victim’s gender is not relevant—it would be equally wrong if the victim had been male.  That the accusing student was not punished is just icing on this pile of steaming bullshit.

That these men and the trolls on this thread seem to think it just peachy makes me wonder if an asteroid strike wouldn’t be such a bad thing after all.

Comment #47: kaninchen  on  04/23  at  02:10 AM

FlipYrWhig:

It makes no sense for schools to want to do this, unless it’s to create a climate of disquiet and intimidation.

Which really only serves to make things even worse than they would be otherwise.

It’d be nice if we could, as a society, just accept the fact that teenagers don’t do the right thing 100% of the time and turn their mistakes into teachable moments, instead of treating them like they’re automatically wrong just for existing. Kids aren’t stupid. They know when they’re being treated unfairly.

You don’t solve the problems inherent in packing lots of teenagers into a confined space for eight hours a day by turning it into a petty police state.

Comment #48: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  04/23  at  02:15 AM

Is it possible Breyer was asking “Why is this a major thing?”

I hope so, but I have my doubts.  In my gut, I really think Herr Justice Breyer is THAT of touch.  When you look at the psychic injury suffered by the plaintiff however, you see that this is a big deal.  These school officials need to be held to account for their actions - and feel the pain in their wallets.

Finally, thank the gods for the ACLU!

Comment #49: Richard Goblin  on  04/23  at  02:17 AM

Maybe patriarchy is more than 50% cluelessness. Maybe it’s not so much an active conspiracy (though there are fully self-aware conspirators) as it is the air we breathe. I never saw much in what the patriarchy had to offer me, even as a “crown of creation” white male born into a striving working-class family, but I can’t say I am beyond its influence.

The trolls have a point that this is probably more a zero-tolerance issue. However, given that we do have zero tolerance in place, there are aspects about this case their so-called “distorting lens” lens of feminism can inform us about.

And “Chibi” a few posts up, nice to meet a fellow TBM fan.

Comment #50: Bacopa  on  04/23  at  02:20 AM

There is a difference between Scoliosis and what your grandmother probably had, ojd, and this is why you were screened for the former:

In the case of the most common form of scoliosis, adolescent idiopathic scoliosis, there is no clear causal agent [6]. Various causes have been implicated, but none has consensus among scientists as the cause of scoliosis. Scoliosis is more often diagnosed in females and is often seen in patients with cerebral palsy or spina bifida,[citation needed] although this form of scoliosis is different from that seen in children without these conditions. In some cases, scoliosis exists at birth due to a congenital vertebral anomaly. Occasionally, development of scoliosis during adolescence is due to an underlying anomaly such as a tethered spinal cord, but most often the cause is unknown or idiopathic.[citation needed] Some therapists like the referenced Hanna Somatic therapist believe that trauma to an adult can cause, not just asymmetry but an actual curve to the spine visible on x-ray, although no documentation is offered in her article. Scoliosis often presents itself, or worsens, during the adolescence growth spurt.

Postural kyphosis (M40.0), the most common type, normally attributed to slouching can occur in both the old[1] and the young. In the young, it can be called ‘slouching’ and is reversible by correcting muscular imbalances. In the old, it may be called ‘hyperkyphosis’ or ‘dowager’s hump’. About one third of the most severe hyperkyphosis cases have vertebral fractures.[2] Otherwise, the aging body tends towards a loss of musculoskeletal integrity[3], and kyphosis can develop due to aging alone.[4][2]

Hyperkyphosis does get worse with osteoporosis, FWIW.

Comment #51: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/23  at  02:26 AM

I mean, say what you want about the tenets of patriarchal misogyny, but at least it’s an ethos.

FTW.

Comment #52: Well, what?  on  04/23  at  02:33 AM

<i>The fact that Breyer could even make a comparison between changing in a locker room with being strip searched is part of the rape culture.

Is it possible Breyer was asking “Why is this a major thing?” as a means of setting up the girl’s lawyers to say “This is a major thing for the following 28 obvious reasons, so everyone should listen really fcking closely”?</i

Basically the Justices ask questions because they want to know the answer. They’ve read the briefs and followed the arguments—now they want to decide how to rule. They have to look at the impact of their rule over different cases in the unknown future. (What if it’s a 14 year old girl? What if they just made her take off her bra? What is the equivalent for a boy?) A Supreme Court ruling is a big deal—they won’t hear another school search case for a while.

I think the question is actually a hopeful sign, that whatever rule they come up with has to prevent the strip searches ( a bad thing) while allowing changing in the locker room ( a neutral or even good thing.)

Comment #53: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  02:51 AM

Amplifying this a little: If the rule coming from this case said no school administrator could ask a student to remove his clothes, swim classes would be impossible.

Comment #54: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  02:53 AM

Sorry I’m a bit scatterbrained: The Justices cannot just assume they know what’s going on. Their knowledge has to come through each side’s lawyers. The lawyers must tell them why it’s a big deal.

Comment #55: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  02:56 AM

I don’t feel like getting into an argument with the people here who don’t get it, and the ones who do have said already anything I could say; so, a quote:

Doctor: What are you doing here, honey? You’re not even old enough to know how bad life gets.
Cecilia: Obviously, Doctor, you’ve never been a 13-year-old girl.

—The Virgin Suicides

Comment #56: RacyT  on  04/23  at  02:57 AM

I started reading the transcript to which wnoise provided the link, and I didn’t get all the way through, but IMHO Breyer’s questions to both sides sound like he’s trying to figure out why the search went all the way to the naked body, rather than stopping somewhere short of that.  It seems like he’s trying to say that being naked under these circumstances _is_ in fact a big deal.  I guess it could be said that he’s less bothered than he should be about a student’s almost-but-not-quite-nakedness; but to me it doesn’t read like he’s saying that being naked is no big deal because you get undressed in the locker room.

Basically, if he’s going awry, I’d say it’s because he’s over-invested in the distinction between a strip-search that results in nakedness and a strip-search that results in wearing only underwear—especially for girls.

Comment #57: FlipYrWhig  on  04/23  at  02:59 AM

Then again, if Lithwick’s piece is based on her actually being present in the room, she would obviously have a much better sense of the tone than I do from quickly reading the transcript in the middle of the night.

Comment #58: FlipYrWhig  on  04/23  at  03:08 AM

To add: Supreme Court justices are generally pretty clueless.  They’re the closest America has to royalty, and they pick up a lot of royalty’s tendency to forget how it works for the rest of the world.

Lifetime appointments, a very narrow work area, and endless deference create a weird mental state for justices.  So Breyer may have genuinely not realized how embarrassing stuff like this would be, out of the specific sort of cluelessness being on the court engenders.

Just my take on it.

Comment #59: Ferox  on  04/23  at  03:15 AM

Hector B. there’s a big difference between an administrator expecting a student to change their clothes into appropriate attire for a class or sport and an administrator demanding that a student REMOVE all of their clothes while the administrator watches.

Comment #60: shakahi  on  04/23  at  03:21 AM

Hector B. there’s a big difference

Yes, we see the difference intuitively. But expressing that difference in words is surprisingly difficult.

Comment #61: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  03:24 AM

Ok, FlipYrWhig, adults do not necessarily have the same hang-ups as adolescents and consequently may forget what it’s like to feel as a teenager does. Better? I’m sure that so many years of taking my clothes off in front of teammates has made me immune to caring if they see my sports bra, much as actors don’t care who sees them change between scenes, and many nursing mothers don’t care who sees their breasts. Many adults who do not have need to change quickly in less than private circumstances do care as they have more luxury to do so.

Dark Avenger, the latter is probably what my grandmother had. I had a feeling, with no actual knowledge, that it wasn’t actually scoliosis.

Comment #62: one jewish dyke  on  04/23  at  03:25 AM

I still want to know why it’s against a zero-tolerance policy to be in possession of ibuprofen.  Or aspirin, or whateverthefuck as long as it’s not a Schedule I narcotic.  I realize it’s a burden to expect school administrators to know what a tab of LSD looks like compared to an Aleve, but them’s the breaks.  People have legitimate reasons for having pills on them and it shouldn’t be up to the schools to police that.  If there’s a drug problem let the FBI or the police investigate it.  Principals aren’t cops, they aren’t law enforcement personnel, they’re educators and they should be focusing on that.

This whole case stinks and should have been ruled in the Reddings’ favor with a stern reprimand to the school administrators and compensation to the Reddings.  I hope the Supremes get it right.

Comment #63: liberalrob  on  04/23  at  04:00 AM

That’s acetaminophen, aka Tylenol.

For the sake of further international translation - that’s paracetamol (in the UK anyway).  Boy, was that confusing when I had mastitis and was doing internet searches for help.

Also, this whole thing is outrageously nuts. Was the school principal stoned?  Is the entire system?  Did the War on Drugs turn into the War on Painkillers now?  That this whole things needs to go to the Supreme Court is proof enough of how broken the attitude is towards “drugs”.

Comment #64: Katherine  on  04/23  at  05:49 AM

shout out to Henry Waxman!

Amen.

Comment #65: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  04/23  at  05:55 AM

Everyone’s already said everything I could think of to say, except that for all the weirdness at my very small school growing up, I am suddenly exceedingly glad I never had to take gym in a big class. It was bad enough taking swimming lessons.

And fucking Advil??!???!??!?!?

ADVIL?!

Comment #66: Nenya  on  04/23  at  06:48 AM

To add: Supreme Court justices are generally pretty clueless.  They’re the closest America has to royalty, and they pick up a lot of royalty’s tendency to forget how it works for the rest of the world.
Lifetime appointments, a very narrow work area, and endless deference create a weird mental state for justices. 

So Breyer may have genuinely not realized how embarrassing stuff like this would be, out of the specific sort of cluelessness being on the court engenders.

There’s also the cluelessness engendered by being a 71-year-old privileged white guy who was chief counsel to the senate judiciary committee and a federal appellate judge when his own children were adolescents, and thus probably not playing all that strong of a parenting role.

I still want to know why it’s against a zero-tolerance policy to be in possession of ibuprofen.  Or aspirin, or whateverthefuck as long as it’s not a Schedule I narcotic.  I realize it’s a burden to expect school administrators to know what a tab of LSD looks like compared to an Aleve, but them’s the breaks.  People have legitimate reasons for having pills on them and it shouldn’t be up to the schools to police that.

The rule in this school, and many others, is that if you’ve got a legit need for drugs in school, you have to give them to the nurse at the start of the school day and go take them there, at lunch or whatever. It’s an absurd rule, but a common one. (A student in Virginia got a two-week suspension not long ago when she was caught taking birth control on the sly.)

If there’s a drug problem let the FBI or the police investigate it.  Principals aren’t cops, they aren’t law enforcement personnel, they’re educators and they should be focusing on that.

The ACLU lawyer suggested exactly this, and it’s what many jurisdictions already do.

Comment #67: Angus Johnston  on  04/23  at  07:41 AM

I still want to know why it’s against a zero-tolerance policy to be in possession of ibuprofen.

Because the policy was put togerther by males who have never experienced menstrual cramps.

Comment #68: rea  on  04/23  at  08:51 AM

I should note that by “exactly this” in my last comment I meant strip searching, not all investigation of possible drug issues. Neither the ACLU nor other students’ rights advocates want schools to be calling the cops every time they hear a rumor that a kid has brought a joint to school.

Comment #69: Angus Johnston  on  04/23  at  09:07 AM

You know, when I was a timid, body-conscious middle schooler, I went to a private school where it was mandated that we change for p.e. (in part because of uniforms). But you know what is also present in just about every locker room ever? Bathroom stalls, which provide the timid, body-conscious student with the opportunity to change in semi-private.

So I think the distinction between this type of coerced search and the coerced nakedness involved in changing for gym class is greater than a lot of us recognize. I doubt anyone much liked changing for gym class, but at least doing so publicly was semi-optional.

Comment #70: rhiain  on  04/23  at  09:28 AM

“Because the policy was put togerther by males who have never experienced menstrual cramps.”

Bingo.  I got my period very early (10 years old) and cramps were excruciating back then.  They would send me to the nurse’s office.  If I would have been denied the right to carry pain relievers, they would have had to send me home.

Even if this is all about Beyer’s cluelessness, that doesn’t bode well for justice.

Comment #71: Gypsy Lee  on  04/23  at  09:50 AM

“why is this a major thing to say strip down to your underclothes, which children do when they change for gym?”

Why is it a major thing for an adult to molest a child, when that child’s parents have touched his or her genitals plenty of times (during baths, etc.)?  Why is it a major thing for a man to expose his penis in public, when most children have seen their dad naked anyway?

Comment #72: bananacat  on  04/23  at  10:29 AM

“The rule in this school, and many others, is that if you’ve got a legit need for drugs in school, you have to give them to the nurse at the start of the school day and go take them there, at lunch or whatever. It’s an absurd rule, but a common one. (A student in Virginia got a two-week suspension not long ago when she was caught taking birth control on the sly.)”

The justification, as trolly trolled earlier, would be that schools are afraid of lawsuits because they didn’t stop kid A from giving kid B ibuprofen and then kid B has an allergic reaction, that plus drug hysteria. Why someone can understand that, but not see that the existence of a patriarchy means that the fact this happened to a 13-year-old girl and not a boy is possibly not a coincidence, that the patriarchal shittyness girls get subjected to makes forced disrobing more traumatic and that said patriarchy has led to having an almost all male supreme court, I don’t understand.

Comment #73: witless chum  on  04/23  at  10:50 AM

I have to agree with liberalrob. Quite aside from the horrific violation of a 13-year-old girl here, the fact that *any* school jurisdiction can do this over *ibuprofen* suggests to me that we need a federal law guaranteeing that children may carry, and take as needed, any legal over the counter medication or any medication they have a valid prescription for, so long as the parents have signed a consent waiver.

Ibuprofen only lasts for four hours. If you have menstrual cramps, you *will* have to go to the nurse’s office to get your pills… and many schools don’t *have* a full time nurse. But if you were home, your mom would just tell you go get an Advil. So why don’t children have the rights at school that their parents would grant them? Why can’t I say “I am okay with my daughter having and using ibuprofen at school”? It’s NOT a frickin’ illegal drug!

And if a child has a parental consent waiver for a specific kind of medication (which you could specify has to come in its original bottle so the administrators can tell that it’s supposed to be Advil, for instance), any person with a brain would be able to tell if it was a prescription painkiller instead… and the parental consent waiver could actually have language waiving school responsibility for identifying contraband pills. Basically, you want your kid to take Advil at school, great, but you lose the right to sue us if you find out they’re taking OxyContin instead. And you know, I’m okay with that. Because I don’t automatically assume that my kids will take drugs, and if they did, I’d think the legal overreaction of getting caught would be far, far worse for them than the damage the actual drugs could do.

Children need a Bill of Rights. If the justices are so all-fired concerned about removing the right to strip-search children for *illegal* drugs, why don’t they create a judicial standard that says that in order to strip search a kid you have to have reasonable evidence that they are breaking the *law*, not school rules, and if your evidence is not reasonable (ie, it’s solely based on the word of one other child) or the reason for the search is not for something *illegal* (it is perfectly legal for a child to have ibuprofen, or birth control pills), you can be sued?

Comment #74: Alara J Rogers  on  04/23  at  10:56 AM

swim classes would be impossible.

Why?  You can swim in clothing.  Specific types of clothing, but clothing.  This happens when you have women from Islamic countries who have to take a swim test but want to be modest - they wear what they wear in, say, Indonesia to swim.

Comment #75: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  11:08 AM

we need a federal law guaranteeing that children may carry, and take as needed, any legal over the counter medication or any medication they have a valid prescription for, so long as the parents have signed a consent waiver.

This is a fantastic idea!  But, it won’t happen any time soon.  You see, adults are smart enough to read OTC medicine bottles and figure out how much too take.  If they overdose, it’s their own fault.  But anyone under the age of 18 is just plain too dumb to figure this thing out.  Teenagers will see that “recommended dose: 2 capsules” and take 10 instead because they are just too dumb.

Children need a Bill of Rights.

This is an even better idea!  The problem is that we (pretend to) care more about children’s health than their rights.  It doesn’t really matter that these don’t actually make kids safer, but essentially we take away young people’s rights For Their Own Good(TM).  They simply can’t be trusted to make any good decisions.  It sort of like when G. W. Bush took away some of our privacy and due process rights in the name of Safety(TM).  Personally, I think that we underestimate teenagers way too much (partly based on media portrayal), and I think that the voting age should be lowered to 16.  If teenagers had some political power, maybe politicians would actually care about their rights.

Comment #76: bananacat  on  04/23  at  11:08 AM

You see, adults are smart enough to read OTC medicine bottles and figure out how much too take.  If they overdose, it’s their own fault.  But anyone under the age of 18 is just plain too dumb to figure this thing out.  Teenagers will see that “recommended dose: 2 capsules” and take 10 instead because they are just too dumb.

The other problem is that if a kid has a vial of ritalin and another kid wants to steal it, or that kid wants to sell some.  OTC meds, yeah, duh.  Asthma inhalers and epi pens and insulin injectors, double duh.  Some prescription meds should probably stay with the nurse if there is documented abuse potential.

Comment #77: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  11:11 AM

The other problem is that if a kid has a vial of ritalin and another kid wants to steal it, or that kid wants to sell some.

Funny how we don’t have to worry about adults selling or stealing Ritalin so much that we can strip search them on suspicion.  Still, I agree with you that most prescriptions should be kept with the nurse and students should be allowed to carry OTC meds with them.

Comment #78: bananacat  on  04/23  at  11:29 AM

Cat girl, I wasn’t talking about strip searching - I was talking about setting sane policies for possession based on abuse potential in a school setting.  Like when you fly, it should all be kept in the original labeled packaging.

Comment #79: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  11:33 AM

There are also storage issues with prescription medications - heat, humidity, etc. - that typically don’t apply to over the counter medications.  Kids lose things when moving from class to class and digging in packs, too.  Not a big deal with a bottle of Advil, but a big deal with a prescription medication since many insurance companies don’t pay for replacement refills.

Comment #80: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  11:35 AM

Schools get so hysterical over drugs (among other things) that the merest hint of a suspicion seems to be enough to demand that teenage girls strip. I remember a case where a 15-year-old was forced to strip to her underwear because a drug-detecting police dog wagged his tail when he sniffed her. It later transpired that she had played that morning with the family dog, a female in heat, and that was what Officer K9 was responding to.

If only school administrators took, say, bullying (especially the homophobic kind) half as seriously as they do drugs…

Comment #81: Bitter Scribe  on  04/23  at  11:45 AM

Ms Kate:

Although it might add some expense (not ideal these days) it would probably help if meds could all be blister-packed or otherwise served up in non-loose fashion, so that diversion would be a little more difficult. I know that many inhalers, for example, have counters on them to keep track of dosage. This kind of monitoring would be somewhat intrusive, but a lot less than the craziness we have now.

Comment #82: paul  on  04/23  at  11:46 AM

There’s also the cluelessness engendered by being a 71-year-old privileged white guy

I’m going to credit the guy with recognizing he cannot know what it’s like to be a 13 year old school girl, and that’s why he asked the questions he did.

Comment #83: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  11:50 AM

Schools get so hysterical over drugs (among other things) that the merest hint of a suspicion seems to be enough to demand that teenage girls strip.

A big problem here is that legal rights do not apply to students in school.  We already have laws (which may not be perfect) that regulate how and why strip searches (or any searches) are done.  Either a warrant or reasonable suspicion is necessary.  Also, it must be done by actual law enforcement officers.  Teachers and other school officials are not trained to know what “reasonable suspicion” is, and it doesn’t matter anyway because they are not required to adhere to those laws.  IMO, it is not in a teacher’s job to do strip searches.  If they are concerned about illegal activity, then they need to call the police and let them handle it.  If a strip search is necessary, it should be done by a police officer and not a teacher.

Comment #84: bananacat  on  04/23  at  11:52 AM

legal rights do not apply to students in school.

Things aren’t that bad. Here’s the relevant school search case from 25 years ago. Key differences are that a teacher (not a student in disciplinary trouble) saw the student in possession of contraband, and that the student’s purse was searched and not her underpants.

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/469/325.html

Comment #85: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  12:17 PM

I’m still having trouble with the ability of a school administrator to strip-search a student without a warrant!  A kid’s body isn’t school property like a locker!

Comment #86: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  12:46 PM

legal rights do not apply to students in school.<i>

Things aren’t that bad.

Maybe they weren’t that bad at your school, but they things certainly were that bad at my school and plenty of others.  Things are also very different now than they were 25 years ago.

I’m still having trouble with the ability of a school administrator to strip-search a student without a warrant!

Exactly.  There is no reason anyone should be subjected to strip searches <i>without a warrant, except in prisons.  I know that students are considered analogous to prisoners in the eyes of the law, but it shouldn’t be that way.

Comment #87: bananacat  on  04/23  at  12:55 PM

I’m still having trouble with the ability of a school administrator to strip-search a student without a warrant

A strip search is way more intrusive than anything the Supremes have authorized so far. They have ruled it’s OK to make students pee in a cup if the students participate in extracurriculars, but not for every student. I forget the name of the case, but they were concerned about the privacy of the students. For guys at least, standing at a urinal peeing into a cup is no more intrusive than standing at a urinal peeing without a cup, so they figured that was OK.

Although public schools are government actors, they’re not cops, and so they won’t be getting warrants for anything.

Comment #88: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  01:12 PM

“Maybe they weren’t that bad at your school, but they things certainly were that bad at my school and plenty of others.”

You are aware that there’s a difference between “what schools (or anyone) does” and “what schools are allowed to do,” right?  Unfortunately, the institutions are frequently in the habit of violating students’ rights, and students must seek redress from the legal system.  This is not the same thing as not having those rights.

Comment #89: preying mantis  on  04/23  at  01:26 PM

preying mantis, schools are allowed to do those things.  I’ll be surprised if anyone gets in trouble for strip-searching this 13 year-old.  If someone does, it will probably be a PR stunt on some technicality while still allowing schools to do searches without a warrant or a law enforcement officer involved.  Schools will still be allowed to search students on the suspicion that they are breaking a ridiculous school rule, rather than breaking an actual law.  I don’t remember the name, but there was a court case that decided that students in school are analogous to prisoners.

As for drug tests for athletes, I don’t have a problem with that, because extra-curricular sports are optional.  The students should be allowed to do it in a stall though.

Comment #90: bananacat  on  04/23  at  01:50 PM

For the record, if a batch of school administrators had strip-searched my daughter for ibuprofen, I’m not sure the bodies would ever be found.  They’re lucky her mom’s a law-abiding type.

Comment #91: Punditus Maximus  on  04/23  at  01:59 PM

I’ve put up my post on whether the school’s attorney “insisted” that cavity searches in middle school were legal. Short version: he didn’t.

I’ll tackle the Breyer question next.

Comment #92: Angus Johnston  on  04/23  at  02:20 PM

Can I just mention- what if you don’t wear “underclothes”? What exactly do you strip to if all you have on under your jeans and t-shirt is your birthday suit? What level of authority would we like to grant school administrators in that case? As I think has been mentioned before, the liability issue alone should show this is problematic. I mean, wouldn’t a better policy be to say, hold the child/ suspect in the office, call parents, call police, all who are better able to deal with potential legal consequences than a school administrator on a power trip.

Comment #93: Awkward  on  04/23  at  05:38 PM

And if they tried to strip search, they’d have to do so over my dead body.

Yeah, except they didn’t ask permission or even notify her parents. IIRC they found out after the fact. Which is one of the scariest parts of it for me, because how can I protect my kids if I don’t know they need it, and isn’t that exactly what power-tripping school officials like this are relying on?

Yes, we see the difference intuitively. But expressing that difference in words is surprisingly difficult.

Ahhhhh, bullshit. This is like people who defend crappy presidents by saying “Well, can YOU guarantee you’d have made a better decision?” Well, no, but I’m not the president.

Maybe it’s difficult for you and me, but that’s what law school and judicial experience is for. It’s for training people in the art of perceiving and, yes, expressing, subtle and semantic differences between situations that are legal and situations that are not. If the Supremes can’t do that, they’re pathetically unqualified for their jobs.

Comment #94: kristin  on  04/23  at  06:01 PM

A strip search is way more intrusive than anything the Supremes have authorized so far. They have ruled it’s OK to make students pee in a cup if the students participate in extracurriculars, but not for every student. I forget the name of the case, but they were concerned about the privacy of the students. For guys at least, standing at a urinal peeing into a cup is no more intrusive than standing at a urinal peeing without a cup, so they figured that was OK.

It’s too bad there’s nothing in the Constitution that would allow the court to throw out a law because whoever wrote the law must have been on drugs.

Pee in a cup so you can be in the Chess Club.  And pray you didn’t have a poppy seed bagel too recently. 

I mean, wouldn’t a better policy be to say, hold the child/ suspect in the office, call parents, call police, all who are better able to deal with potential legal consequences than a school administrator on a power trip.

If they did that, they’d discover ibuprofen isn’t against the law, it’s even sold in drugstores.  Next thing, we’ll be expelling kids from school for being seen in an establishment known as a “drug store.”

Comment #95: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  06:05 PM

Here’s my take on Dalia Lithwick’s take on Breyer.

Comment #96: Angus Johnston  on  04/23  at  06:45 PM

Breyer was on the bubble with Earls, the pee-in-a-cup if you want to participate in extracurriculars case.

This case is different because there was individualized suspicion (a lower standard than probable cause but appropriate because the student would not be subject to criminal liability). But from Breyer’s separate concurrence in Earls, there’s a good chance he’d find a strip search unreasonable on these facts. He believes the community should have input into any such policies, which didn’t happen here. And privacy was important to him. But he does think that illegal drug use among students is a problem.

BOARD OF EDUCATION OF INDEPENDENT SCHOOL
DISTRICT NO. 92 OF POTTAWATOMIE COUNTY,
et al., PETITIONERS v. LINDSAY EARLS et al. 536 U.S. 822 (2002)

Comment #97: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  07:20 PM

they’d discover ibuprofen isn’t against the law, it’s even sold in drugstores

A poiint in favor of the school is that they are educators, not pharmacists. They can’t be expected to look up every pill they find in the Physician’s Desk Reference to find out if it’s a mind-altering substance. A blanket “no pills in students’ hands” rule lets them focus on teaching rather than policing.

Now, various workarounds should be possible to accomodate the school on this. My prescription labels describe what the pill looks like. Maybe when a kid gets a new prescription, she brings the bottle in for the label to be photocopied and put in her file. If the pill is a little white disc labelled C159, this can be checked at any time.

Comment #98: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  07:28 PM

A poiint in favor of the school is that they are educators, not pharmacists. They can’t be expected to look up every pill they find in the Physician’s Desk Reference to find out if it’s a mind-altering substance. A blanket “no pills in students’ hands” rule lets them focus on teaching rather than policing.

A blanket “let teenagers carry any OTC pill or prescribed drug they need” rule would also let them focus on teaching rather than policing.

Comment #99: Juan Stoppable  on  04/23  at  07:55 PM

A blanket “let teenagers carry any OTC pill or prescribed drug they need” rule would also let them focus on teaching rather than policing.

As long as our current drug laws exist, kids will not be free to pop some unidentified pill in school.

Comment #100: Hector B.  on  04/23  at  08:39 PM

A blanket “no pills in students’ hands” rule lets them focus on teaching rather than policing.

I think we’ve seen with this strip-search case that actually, it keeps them pretty damn busy policing, and more importantly, it lowers the quality of any education kids are managing to get.

Comment #101: kristin  on  04/23  at  09:03 PM

i hope to all hell that this is not an issue in canada, ever. on the other hand, i’ve told my daughters both that if ANYONE, even teachers or principals, tells them to do something that they don’t feel comfortable with, to refuse and demand that i be called. someone tells them to take off their clothes—no. call my mom.

i am sure that the young woman in question would have faced consequences if she had refused to comply with the orders, but i’m not sure that those consequences are worse than what she has been through since. i want to make it very clear here that i do not in ANY WAY blame her for what happened. i think that we all need to be more proactive about teaching our kids not to just obey any random authority. my kids know i will back them up.

Comment #102: sophiefair  on  04/23  at  09:04 PM

Hector, do you have any more excuses for this patriarchal abuse of power, or are you ready to read back through the thread, note what people are saying, and examine your privileges in light of your pathetic “but but but but but ...” excuse making?

Seriously - I’d call STICK RULE, but I know you are better than this.  Call it a blind spot - but do buy a mirror, please!

Comment #103: Ms Kate  on  04/23  at  09:25 PM

I’m not sure, by the way, that I agree with Angus Johnson’s characterization. Obviously you’d have to have been there, but the series of exchanges he describes are equally possible to characterize as those of someone who is unwilling to say that he believes cavity searches should be impermissible. He gives all kinds of reasons why he doesn’t believe the question would ever be reached, but he very deliberately refuses to step up and say he thinks it would be unlawful.

Comment #104: paul  on  04/23  at  09:54 PM

A poiint in favor of the school is that they are educators, not pharmacists. They can’t be expected to look up every pill they find in the Physician’s Desk Reference to find out if it’s a mind-altering substance. A blanket “no pills in students’ hands” rule lets them focus on teaching rather than policing.

And lets their students focus on being in pain instead of learning.

Comment #105: Dan  on  04/23  at  11:57 PM

do you have any more excuses for this patriarchal abuse of power

Sorry, Ms. Kate. I’m not a big fan of patriarchal abuses of power; I’m just trying to handicap the outcome. Unfortunately the Sup. Ct.‘s trend has been toward more abuses instead of fewer. Our butthead legislators enacted Zero Tolerance. That ain’t going away unless we change the statute law. The average school administrator is even less smart than the average congressperson. Remember the South Park guy, “Drugs R bad.” “Think of the children.”

But, based on the caselaw up to now, and the facts of this case, and the current composition of the Court, I’m going to say the Court will likely rule against strip searches provided there’s some other alternative. The other side is arguing strip searches are necessary to prevent kids from popping oxycontin in front of teachers who think it’s Tylenol. There are dozens of ways to prevent that, but merely having faith in the students hasn’t been enough to date. Remember, school districts are allowed to make the Chess Club pee in a cup whenever they want—that’s the last Supreme Court ruling.

Comment #106: Hector B.  on  04/24  at  12:32 AM

“merely having faith in the students”—How about relieving the students from being expected to respect authority figures who are committed to deep stupidity?  That’s a reality anyone would want to escape from.

I know, “To Dream The Impossible Dream…”

Comment #107: MixedContent  on  04/24  at  03:56 AM

Hector B. there’s a big difference between an administrator expecting a student to change their clothes into appropriate attire for a class or sport and an administrator demanding that a student REMOVE all of their clothes while the administrator watches.
shakahi on 04/22 at 10:21 PM

Yes, we see the difference intuitively. But expressing that difference in words is surprisingly difficult.
Hector B.  on 04/22 at 10:24 PM

Hector, are you that guy from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy who, after using the incredibly providential Babel Fish as final, convincing proof that God does not exist, then went on to prove that black is white and got run over at the next crosswalk he tried to use?

Perhaps you understand this arcane technique we call “language” differently than I do, but I thought shakahi used it effectively enough to indicate the difference, using the recondite approach of describing two essentially and obviously different situations and letting their dissimilarity speak for itself.*

You know, the way we might distinguish between a kid on a tricycle on the other side of the street from an out-of-control Mack eighteen-wheeler semi driven by a homicidal manic bearing down on us (in the crosswalk) at 72 MPH.

I suppose you might get hung up on the fact that the tricycle and the truck are both wheeled vehicles and find it surprisingly difficult to express the difference in words. Would it help if I pointed out the second vehicle has six times the number of wheels of the first? Would that seem like the relevant thing to help you out in parsing that situation?

I’ll spell it out for you—the difference is that some authority figure looking, judging, even demanding particular forms of compliance is the point of a strip search, while changing clothes is a means to an end that doesn’t logically demand a lack of privacy and exposure to judgments and ridicule. The fact that in either situation the clothes come off is as irrelevant as the observation that both the tricycle and the truck happen to be painted purple.

May I suggest you obtain an Electric Monk to help you cross the street? At any rate, it would believe you were safe…

——-
* Here’s a clue for you—that final four-word clause beginning with “while..” I guess language has evolved some modern sophistication you are not familiar with?

Comment #108: Mark Foxwell  on  04/24  at  09:00 AM

Thank you, Mark. You have proved my point.

All that a savvy administrator has to do is announce: “It’s swim class time! Everyone into the locker room to change into their suits.” Then she watches the kid change clothes because hey, we’re all girls here.

Comment #109: Hector B.  on  04/24  at  12:42 PM

Whether or not the administrator enjoys looking at naked young girls in locker rooms, and does so, is not really the main issue here, objectionable though it is-the issue is how this affects the girls. If they feel uncomfortable that the administrator is watching them, they should be able to ask the administrator not to (and be listened to, I mean). If they feel uncomfortable taking off all their clothes for a strip search, they should be able to refuse, without the threat of punishment hanging over their heads.

Comment #110: Zef  on  04/24  at  08:11 PM

Let me start out by reiterating that I am completely AGAINST strip searches of kids in school.  Period.

But I have to say that the anti-school, administrators are all power-hungry idiots, teachers are stupid vibe is really starting to get to me.  Those people are out there, of course.  But it is not my experience that they are the norm, although the ones who are make the news more frequently than the good ones.

Now, about OTC meds and why kids, at least in my state, aren’t allowed to carry them:

The reason they don’t allow kids to have OTC meds (or any other kind) unless they have a doctor’s note and the meds are stored in the nurse’s office is that the school is responsible for the child’s health and safety from the time they get to the bus stop or get dropped off at school until the time the bus drops them off or they get picked up from school.  Responsible as in legally responsible, both civilly and administratively.  Make a very serious error about this sort of thing, and you can lose your teacher and/or administrative license and pension. 

It sometimes happens, too, that a kid has to go to the hospital and the parent is not able to be contacted.  Since kids are required to have physicals, the nurse can pull the physical for the ER docs or paramedics and report about what conditions or allergies the child has and what medications he or she may be taking.

In fact, our state law (NJ) also says that a school nurse must go on every trip that has even one child taking even one medication, OTC or prescription.  That’s how seriously the state takes it.

Let’s say a child with a cold brings Sudafed to school and takes it properly, according to the package.  Later, the child develops an elevated heart rate, a not-uncommon side effect of Sudafed.  The child goes to the nurse with an elevated heart rate, and the nurse is concerned:  does the child have a heart condition?  Is something seriously wrong?  Should the parents be called?  Has the child taken an illegal drug?  Should I call 911? 

But if the child has permission to take the med and the nurse has given it to her, then when the elevated heart rate happens, the nurse says, “Oh, look.  It’s a potential side effect of the Sudafed.”  Nurse calls parent, parent decides whether to take the child to the doctor or not, nurse suggests maybe not taking Sudafed in the future, and all is well.

So, that’s a totally innocent case.  Now, it seems that everyone here was a completely responsible human being from kindergarten through high school, but the sad fact is that not everyone is, and kids will make mistakes with dosages or just screw around and wonder what happens if you take too much.  A big fun thing for supposedly “drug-free” kids in the suburbs is drinking lots of cough syrup and seeing if they get high (which they will, if they drink enough of it, and yes, it is potentially very dangerous).

But the most important reason of all is liability.  If the school has a policy in place that all meds, OTC or prescription must be kept with the nurse and only if the student has a doctor’s note, then if the child suffers some ill-effect of the medication (or doesn’t follow the rules and takes a med on the sly), the school cannot be held liable.  Parents in my neck of the woods will sue the school at the drop of a hat.  Rules like this (and yes, we have exceptions for epi-pens and asthma inhalers and other emergency meds) protect the school from getting sued, even though we are sued on a regular basis, anyway.

When thinking about this issue, too, you have to remember that school law doesn’t distinguish between a kindergartener and a senior.  Should it?  Maybe, but that’s not for the principal to decide—that’s for the legislature to decide.  Kids are in school from age 5-18.  For the majority of those years, I think we would all agree, children are not considered responsible enough to manage their own medications. 

So school officials who don’t allow students to take OTC meds are not being bullies, or power-mad or whatever, they are attempting to follow the law, which they have little power to influence, at any rate.

Comment #111: MadLibrarian  on  04/24  at  08:28 PM
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