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Next entry: UPDATE: PA state investigation finds Valley Club did discriminate against minority kids at its pool Previous entry: ‘Inside the Mind of Mark Foley’ radio show debuts tonight

Dusting off anti-artist sentiments for today’s faux outrage

“slow rot”
“corrupt and servile”
“sickening”
“violently ill”

When it comes to disdaining artists—-particularly when they don’t paint realistic seascapes with Jesus doing something Jesus-y in the foreground or an eagle crying with a flag waving somewhere—-there’s really no limit on the adjective abuse from conservatives.  (Via Michael, which makes me wonder if conservative accused WPA mural artists of being in league with Satan.) Let’s face it.  Conservatives are in a full blown depression over losing an election they thought was a sure win—-because they assumed that most of America shared their how-dare-you-call-it-racism beliefs—-and we all know what depression leads people to do: seek comfort in familiar things.  A bowl of chicken soup while curled up in front of some cheesy 80s movie does it for the non-nutty, but wingnuts have different comforts.  It’s time to take out some old hates, dust them off, and try to make them seem new again.  Hate and resentment soothe like mother’s milk.  Lashing out at people who don’t suck as bad as you is a useful distraction from dwelling on your own nastiness.  Hating the National Endowment for the Arts was fruitful in the 90s, so of course they’re going back to see if that well has more water.

It probably does, of course.  Hating on artists is the gift that keeps on giving when you’re trying to pump up the base.  Let’s face it.  If you’re a wingnut, you’re probably not the sharpest tool in the box. You don’t get modern art.  And all these people who do get it, who go to museums and plays and arty films and seem to understand what someone’s talking about when they say “mise en scène”, make you feel stupid.  Sure, you could look that term up, do some reading, and if you actually tried to understand this stuff, it would make more sense.  But that’s work.  And here’s this demagogue saying that all those yapping smarty-pants liberals who like this art shit don’t really, but are just pretending to so they can lord it over you. 

(Sadly, this kind of thinking has extended beyond the circles of Nixonian resentment.  Witness this video, which shames you for being a “hipster” for liking Sonic Youth and Wilco.  They’re not even trying.)

Demagoguing about artists getting paid to make art by the government is about the cheapest, easiest form of demagoguery.  It taps multiple resentments at once: The jealousy of artists for making a living doing something they love while you’re stuck with your boring job, the feeling of being left out by modern art that you don’t understand, and the ever-changing nature of art that brings up the fear of change.  Of course, stereotypes of what it’s like to be a writer or an artist feed into this.  The image, particularly the over-simplified one that filters out to the more sheltered types that make up the wingnut ranks, is of the artist as the bohemian. To be fair, there’s more than a sliver of truth to the idea that creative people are more likely to be open to sexual experimentation, and more likely to fill their time with parties and interesting friends.  They’re creative!  They think outside of the box, and that means they’ve got more practice bucking stifling social norms.  But a lot of artistic types have boring old mom-pop-and-kids home lives, you know.  And even people who live a little out of that box rarely have lives as exciting as the fever dreams of conservatives would have you imagine.  And, at the end of the day, writing or making art is hard, often boring work, like any other work.  And it’s scary, competitive work.  And artists who succeed deserve to get paid.  And the government should invest in it, because having more art is good for us all.  Yes, even the people who resent it.  Once it’s decades or even centuries out of date, they often come around to liking it and getting something out of it.


But what’s interesting about this latest round of NEA demagoguery is that it’s not so much about agitating because artists are getting paid while you have to sit at your desk filling out TPS reports.  (And who says artists don’t do a lot of that while trying to build a career?)  No, this “scandal” goes as follows: the Obama administration, working with representatives from the NEA, had a conference call with artists where they discussed how the artists could use their work and their networks to reach out to people on health care reform.  This isn’t shocking, for a few reasons.  The Obama administration has already had a lot of luck with the art community, since a lot of artists drew quite a bit of inspiration from the campaign, and specifically the overwhelming public reaction to it.  This was explicitly noted during the call, in fact.  This tactic of Obama’s is far from unusual.  He had a similar call with bloggers, for instance.  It’s really not surprising that this tactic is something Obama would be drawn to.  Didn’t Sarah Palin denounce him for being a “community organizer”?  Well, that’s what people who have experience in that world are really good at—-finding out who the movers and shakers in a community are, and reaching out to them. 

Thing is, they weren’t even taking money to promote health care reform, which strikes me as a bare minimum before you start flinging the word “propaganda” around.  I suspect the people on the call were on there because they’re already sympathetic to the cause of health care reform.  I suspect the vast majority of artists are, since they have to pay for their own health insurance, and are intimately familiar with being barred due to pre-existing conditions, or having to pay outrageous fees with no real guarantee of care if they get sick.  That they weren’t getting paid in money doesn’t lower the ire one bit. They were getting paid in attention!  In the 21st century, I suppose that’s enough to drive wingnuts batshit with jealousy.  Artists were told, with good reason, that they’re influential in their community.  How dare they have influence while wingnuts are seeing their own star falling, as more and more people realize that they’re full of shit? 

Of course, the Nazi crap started immediately.  The first sentence in the first hysterical post on all this referenced Leni Riefenstahl. The thing is, Riefenstahl isn’t a name that strikes horror into the hearts of film historians everywhere because she took government money to spread a government message.  If that was all it was, then the Looney Toons would hold the same dishonored place in history.  It’s because she made such good movies about such deeply horrible things.  The juxtaposition of greatness in form and depravity in content tends to get people’s attention.  Riefenstahl is really just the most prominent example, because the Nazis get the gold crown of most depraved government of all time.  Most people don’t get so worked up when encountering other art that expresses the government’s point of view, from poets filling laureate duties to painters putting government-commissioned murals on walls.  Americans aren’t so invested in the idea of a strict separation of art and government that we spit on the ground when we hear “The Star-Spangled Banner”.  If you think that anything that even hints of propaganda is a bad thing, you’re free to do this, but it’s really the cherry-picking that’s so offensive here. 

I’m not suggesting that it’s really that great an idea if the NEA gets into making genuine propaganda.  In fact, that’s always been my objection to wingnut ire at the NEA—-up until this weekend, wingnuts were angry that the NEA is not a propagandistic organization, and that they give out grants based on merit.  From Rudy Giuliani demagoguing about the contents of the Brooklyn Museum to all the anger about Robert Mapplethorpe, the argument from conservatives was, “Taking government money should mean an artist’s work should be directed by the government to express a specific set of values defined by us.”  I imagine when this dies down, wingnuts will revert to bitching because the NEA isn’t in the business of propaganda, and arguing that funding should be cut for all non-propaganda art.

The NEA does more than just give grants, you know.  They are there to offer more general support for artists, and so it seems legitimate to me if the NEA helps set up a meeting with Obama and artists who share common goals.  Which is all that seems to have happened here.  If the separation of church and state doesn’t prevent the President from reaching out to religious leaders, then there’s no reason that the President shouldn’t reach out to artists.  There’s no separation of art and state in the Constitution.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:23 PM • (58) Comments

Right: What you said.

Comment #1: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  08:32 PM

Not sure that what you said applies to Damien Hirst, who jumped his own shark some time ago.

Some artists deliberately invite this kind of conflict…no press is bad press.

Comment #2: sara  on  09/22  at  08:41 PM

“There’s no separation of art and state in the Constitution.”

Fuckin’ A right!

Comment #3: Mark  on  09/22  at  08:49 PM

Just to be clear, I’m in favor of the NEA giving money to artists for whatver they want to create.

Comment #4: Mark  on  09/22  at  08:52 PM

Sara, Damien Hirst sure as hell doesn’t take NEA money, so I’m not that sure what your point is.

Comment #5: samanthab.  on  09/22  at  08:53 PM

The NEA is also handing out a pittance, compared to the money given away to the defense contractors and weapons manufacturers. They may not like Piss Christ but Andres Serrano never killed anyone, unlike, say, Haliburton.

Comment #6: Keith  on  09/22  at  09:18 PM

And in other wingnut news, we should deny future grants to medical researchers whose experiments fail to cure cancer, and defund the NIH. But if the DoD spends a few billion on something that doesn’t work, we should give them twice as much to fix it. (I know it’s not universally true, but you really have to think of most weapons systems, especially the nuclear warheads, the antimissile missiles, the Mach 43 fighter planes of which we can only afford to build 2 and so forth, as very expensive performance art with a slice of tech-industry subsidy thrown in.)

The sad/funny thing from my point of view is that the arts, especially the performing arts, are an incredibly cost-effective way to provide jobs, technical educations and a boost to the US manufacturing base, because pretty much all of the work has to get done on-site, and then it gets torn down again a few days/weeks/months later.

Comment #7: paul  on  09/22  at  10:00 PM

There’s a great scene from West Wing, when Toby Ziegler (Richard Schiff) defends a mention of the NEA in a draft of the State of the Union Address.  I can’t find a YouTube clip of the scene, but there’s discussion/transcription a couple of places, including here:

http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/show/the_west_wing/he_shall_from_time_to_time.php?page=10
and
http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2000/cyb20000127.asp

Congressional staffer: “Personally, I don’t know what to say to people who argue that the NEA is there to support art that nobody wanted to pay for in the first place. I don’t know what to tell people when they say Rodgers and Hart didn’t need the NEA to write Oklahoma and Arthur Murray didn’t need the NEA to write Death of a Salesman.”

Toby: “I’d start by telling them that Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote Oklahoma and Arthur Murray taught ballroom dance. Arthur Miller, on the other hand, did need the NEA to write Death of a Salesman, only it wasn’t called the NEA back then it was called the WPA and it was Roosevelt’s. It was Roosevelt’s…

which is the occasion for the team to scrap “the end of big government is over” as the theme for the speech.  Art is powerful mojo….

Comment #8: Nora Carrington  on  09/22  at  10:03 PM

But what’s interesting about this latest round of NEA demagoguery is that it’s not so much about agitating because artists are getting paid while you have to sit at your desk filling out TPS reports.  (And who says artists don’t do a lot of that while trying to build a career?)

This is exactly what a friend who plays in a rock band has been doing for years…..working in a corporate biglaw firm by day….rocking bars and other regional venues by night/weekend. 

Doubt she or her band receives any NEA funds….though I would not be surprised if there were some overly stiff formal law partners who would call for her dismissal if they knew about her rocker activities outside of work.

Comment #9: exholt  on  09/22  at  10:04 PM

Ah, the crazy. The article is a pretty entertaining read - some nice quotes:

“White House official Buffy Wicks directed the artists to channel their efforts through Serve.gov, a White House website with ties to the corrupt Acorn.”
-I feel like this was included as a tip-off to the non-crazies that they should really just ignore this article, as he’s not talking to them.

“[statist influence] may just be the toadying deference that steals into your behavior with the guard who searches you at the airport. “
Isn’t this coming from the same folks who wanted to throw individual rights to the wind in the name of security?

Comment #10: jalmondale  on  09/22  at  10:13 PM

I think what really gets the goat of sick-fuck wingnut sleazebags is that they picture artists getting drunk and fucking and having a grand old time, and not feeling the slightest bit of guilt about it.

Comment #11: PhysioProf  on  09/22  at  10:18 PM

The NEA isn’t shilling for the GOP. And blah blah Nazis blah blah taxes blah blah propaganda.

To the wingnuts, anyone speaking against them is a George Soros flunky, because no “real Americans” agree with Obama. They’re too damn insulated and brainwashed to think otherwise.

Comment #12: Zifnab  on  09/22  at  10:34 PM

The thing is, Riefenstahl isn’t a name that strikes horror into the hearts of film historians everywhere because she took government money to spread a government message.  If that was all it was, then the Looney Toons would hold the same dishonored place in history. It’s because she made such good movies about such deeply horrible things.

I still love to use Triumph des Willens in class.  It’s an amazing film. And one of my students once expressed the point you made perfectly: “I had to keep reminding myself of the evil behind the film. It was just so beautiful.”

Comment #13: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  09/22  at  10:59 PM

I’ve actually heard the “we shouldn’t be funding art when we have all these social problems” line from conservatives who don’t support using taxpayer money to address social problems either.

Comment #14: Triplanetary  on  09/22  at  11:03 PM

“They may not like Piss Christ but Andres Serrano never killed anyone, unlike, say, Haliburton”

Killing people is more important than art.  They understand killing people.  Art?  Not so much.

Comment #15: BadKitty  on  09/22  at  11:09 PM

The jealousy of artists for making a living doing something they love while you’re stuck with your boring job

Thing is—and I speak as a writer, not a painter, but still—the vast (VAST) majority of us don’t even make a living at it, much less rake in the kind of money that the handful of authors whose works get the full foil-jacket treatment do.  Most writers (and artists, and musicians) work damned hard, and usually have to supplement their income by bartending, tutoring, etc., in order to break even.  Advances rarely if ever cover the cost of the child-care you need in order to write the damned book; royalties get applied against that, meaning you start out in the hole, and until your royalties accrue to the point where the advance is “paid back” and you’ve covered what you spent on child care, your talent and time haven’t actually made you any money.

And yes, the money we spend on NEA grants is risibly tiny, even before you compare it to what gets spent on taxpayer giveaways to wealthy sports-team owners in terms of shiny, taxpayer-financed stadiums (and they get to keep all the ticket revenues while we get to keep the debt!) or, say, giveaways to defense contractors and Wall Street bankers and every other so-called “I’m-Going-Galt” asshole.

Gah, I loathe these people and their hypocrisy.  They are evil, evil, evil creatures.

Comment #16: litbrit  on  09/22  at  11:10 PM

conservatives who don’t support using taxpayer money to address social problems either

They think taxpayer money should only be used for military purposes.  Like killing people.

Comment #17: BadKitty  on  09/22  at  11:13 PM

I still love to use Triumph des Willens in class.  It’s an amazing film. And one of my students once expressed the point you made perfectly: “I had to keep reminding myself of the evil behind the film. It was just so beautiful.”

In that same vein, I’ve used Birth of a Nation in class; yeah, the movie is racist to the core, but in terms of the art of filmmaking, it’s groundbreaking.

the feeling of being left out by modern art that you don’t understand

There’s a fair amount of modern art that I don’t understand.  But that doesn’t piss me off, and I don’t feel left out.  There’s so much art out there that I just move on to something I do understand.  It’s not that hard.

Comment #18: Linnaeus  on  09/22  at  11:37 PM

I still love to use Triumph des Willens in class.  It’s an amazing film. And one of my students once expressed the point you made perfectly: “I had to keep reminding myself of the evil behind the film. It was just so beautiful.”

Ended up getting it on DVD both because I have a strong interest in the Axis’ role in WWII especially in the areas of atrocities and genocide and because I have a passing interest in film. 

The way the eyes of the Reich Labor Service Squad leader looked when he asked each of his men where they came from added to the vacant eyed look of someone who fulfills the Hollywood caricature of looking brainwashed. 

I’ve actually heard the “we shouldn’t be funding art when we have all these social problems” line from conservatives who don’t support using taxpayer money to address social problems either.

Funny how I’ve heard the same from the campus Marxists/Maoists at my undergrad as they view most art as frivolous luxurious artifacts for the “Bourgeoisie”.  Only exception was “Socialist realism”....but I’m not sure how much of that can really be considered art as opposed to state sanctioned kitchy crap…....

Comment #19: exholt  on  09/22  at  11:40 PM

There’s a fair amount of modern art that I don’t understand.  But that doesn’t piss me off, and I don’t feel left out.  There’s so much art out there that I just move on to something I do understand.  It’s not that hard.

Exactly. Sometimes you find stuff that leaves you, “meh.” Sometimes you find yourself cathartically enthralled or weeping. Take it where you can find it and keep looking!

Comment #20: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  09/22  at  11:41 PM

There’s a fair amount of modern art that I don’t understand.  But that doesn’t piss me off, and I don’t feel left out.  There’s so much art out there that I just move on to something I do understand.  It’s not that hard.

Ditto. 

Moreover, I do get a rise out of annoying some friends/relatives with art snob pretensions by deliberately misidentifying, making up historically nonsensical backstories to certain artworks, or even going along with their off-the-mark pontifications in a know-nothing manner.

Comment #21: exholt  on  09/22  at  11:51 PM

As an artist, I feel it incumbent upon myself to pause here to become violently ill.

Who knew? He’s a performance artist!

Comment #22: Bitter Scribe  on  09/23  at  12:04 AM

“I’ve actually heard the “we shouldn’t be funding art when we have all these social problems” line from conservatives who don’t support using taxpayer money to address social problems either.”

Yeah, well they have a point
if we used taxpayer money to address the social problems, they wouldnt be able to say “we shouldn’t be funding art when we have all these social problems”

Comment #23: jefft452  on  09/23  at  12:51 AM

Great art will provoke an emotional response in the viewer proportional to its success in exposing, however briefly, a previously unknown vision of the dominate culture. Art that exposes the unpleasant aspects of the culture will foment anxiety. “The saturated, half-educated bourgeois wants no shocks or enlightenment from art, merely entertainment and a way of passing the time.” [Arnold Hauser, The Social History of Art] For a people that claim to value freedom above all else, far too many retreat in the face of real freedom.  “Without freedom, no art; art lives only on the restraints it imposes on itself, and dies of all others.” [Albert Camus]

Comment #24: BobbyV  on  09/23  at  08:48 AM

BobbyV, I think that you have an inflated impression of most art.

Linneaus reflects the reaction of most people to most art:

There’s a fair amount of modern art that I don’t understand.  But that doesn’t piss me off, and I don’t feel left out.  There’s so much art out there that I just move on to something I do understand.  It’s not that hard.

Which is fine. Lots of music only has limited niche appeal as well. My taste in art will not impress anyone at a gallery cocktail party, but I like what I like.

Issues in art, like science, are very narrow and not easily grasped by most people.  Limited arts funding gives people a chance to get paid for their work, either for public consumption or to support someone with interesting ideas. Which is fine, but when it comes to the arts, the natural reaction to people is to ask, “What does this do for me?” One wishes they asked the same about the Iraq war.

“The saturated, half-educated bourgeois wants no shocks or enlightenment from art, merely entertainment and a way of passing the time.”

This is also the excuse made for crappy architecture: the the “half-educated bourgeois” only want a nice building that they enjoy working in or living nearby, rather than one that gives them a shocking reminder of man’s inhumanity to man.

Comment #25: Tyro  on  09/23  at  10:06 AM

This is also the excuse made for crappy architecture: the the “half-educated bourgeois” only want a nice building that they enjoy working in or living nearby, rather than one that gives them a shocking reminder of man’s inhumanity to man.

I thought it was the other way around. That the reason we have cities full of soul-devouring glass boxes is because a bunch of kraut expats convinced the American bourgeois that their buildings should be shocking reminders of man’s inhumanity to man.

Comment #26: Sarcastro  on  09/23  at  10:56 AM

That the reason we have cities full of soul-devouring glass boxes is because a bunch of kraut expats convinced the American bourgeois that their buildings should be shocking reminders of man’s inhumanity to man.

We haf vays of makingk you live in little boxes full of ticky-tacky that all look just the same…

Comment #27: Sour Kraut  on  09/23  at  11:18 AM

Issues in art, like science, are very narrow and not easily grasped by most people.

Tyro, I like some of the points you’ve raised. But I want to step in as an art historian-in-training and say that I believe most issues in art are easily grasped by most people, if they’re explained well and without mystification. Most people can grasp the idea that a viewer and a painting can have a two-way relationship (I see it and it “sees” or affects me) for example. And that’s a building block for a whole host of other issues. And most people can get the movements behind art, the basic ideas, even if individual works escape them. Take cubism: no matter how realistically you paint an apple, it’s not a real apple, it’s a representation on a picture plane- so why not explore that space, because in a painting all those facets and all those viewpoints can exist simultaneously. That’s not a difficult concept- I’ve explained it to children. (And wow, do they get it! Teaching art to kids is a fantastic experience, because for them there’s not yet a learned mental gap between “art” and “Art”- between what they do and what’s in the museum.)

To move to a broader point and respond to this post, there’s a definite interest in keeping people away from art. Conservatives want to do it because they believe art is dangerous- it can expand people’s minds, challenge their beliefs, expose them to alternative cultural viewpoints, and we can’t have that. But there’s a class separation of art as well- for a very simple overview of that, I like John Berger’s Ways of Seeing. He talks about how mystifying art creates a distance between people and their own artistic past. Art isn’t (or more to the point, shouldn’t be) a lofty, unreachable plain for a set of higher beings to interpret. It should be made more accessible, because otherwise, we’ve cut people off from their own culture.

Comment #28: other_orange  on  09/23  at  11:26 AM

@other_orange

Martha Rosler did a great survey of different classes of people back in the 70s, asking them what type of building a museum most reminded them of. Working class and poor people chose “church”, while wealthy, upper class people chose “home”.

Comment #29: vitaminC  on  09/23  at  11:48 AM

“That the reason we have cities full of soul-devouring glass boxes is because a bunch of kraut expats convinced the American bourgeois that their buildings should be shocking reminders of man’s inhumanity to man.”

Yeah, let’s just lock in neoclassical bogus homages to classic Greek and Roman architecture as the only allowed styles of architecture.  We spit on you, Mies van der Rohe, Walter Gropius, Le Corbusier, Phillip Johnson, and that arrogant usurper Frank Lloyd Wright.

I was an architectural centrist, but thanks to Obama’a election I’m outraged by I.M. Pei’s Louvre Pyramid…

Comment #30: MikeEss  on  09/23  at  11:52 AM

BTW, I think the NEA would be just fine if they gave out money for the artwork of the people: paintings of Elvis as Jesus on black velvet, pictures of dogs playing poker, pictures of little white boys and girls wearing clothes from Little House on the Prairie with enormous eyes, making old toilets and bathtubs into planters, taking a bunch of old Cadillacs and half burying them next to a highway, etc.

That’s the kind of art we Real Americans in The Heartland could really get behind…

Comment #31: MikeEss  on  09/23  at  12:03 PM

@vitaminC, yeah, that is so eye-opening! I think Berger quotes those charts in his book.


@MikeEss, Half-Buried Cadillacs is one of my favorites… wink

But really, the real art of the people is wildly interesting. The American Visionary Art Museum (http://www.avam.org/index.html) celebrates self-taught artists, and their collection is amazing, over 4,000 pieces.

Comment #32: other_orange  on  09/23  at  12:16 PM

Yeah, let’s just lock in neoclassical bogus homages to classic Greek and Roman architecture as the only allowed styles of architecture.  We spit on you, Mies van der Rohe, Walter Gropius, Le Corbusier, Phillip Johnson, and that arrogant usurper Frank Lloyd Wright.

Someone famous designed a dorm/dining hall on my college campus. It was supposed to be inspired by like, medieval Scottish castles or something but it was butt ugly. Cinderblock and some chunks of slate, unfinished interiors (on purpose!), stone floors. It *did* serve to remind all the residents of man’s inhumanity to freshman on a daily basis, however. But yeah, I’ll stick with the boring (comfy, pretty, furnished, carpeted, painted) bogus buildings, thanks, at least to live in. :p

Comment #33: Bagelsan  on  09/23  at  12:29 PM

Wingnuts are perfectly welcome to lap up all the Thomas Kincade Painter of Blight sentiment they want, forget about the starving people huddled around peat fires in those quaint and picturesque cottages he dabbles, and leave everybody else the fuck alone.

Nosy, nosy natterers go to hell you know!

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  09/23  at  12:33 PM

le Corbusier can go take a flying bite out of that steaming pile of crap known as Boston City Hall. 

The problem isn’t that it isn’t classical.  The problem is that it makes butt ugly look pretty by comparison on the outside and is a useless mold growing experiment on the inside.

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  09/23  at  12:35 PM

Mike, Pei designed the Media Lab building at MIT.  While the interior works very well, the exterior has led to comparisons to a bathroom stall due to the white tiles with occasional colored tiles.

At one point, MIT had to quickly remove some paint.  Turns out that one of the fraternties decided to paint an extra square green, and Pei noticed it right off.

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  09/23  at  12:38 PM

Tyro and other_orange bring up some good points:

Limited arts funding gives people a chance to get paid for their work, either for public consumption or to support someone with interesting ideas. Which is fine, but when it comes to the arts, the natural reaction to people is to ask, “What does this do for me?” One wishes they asked the same about the Iraq war.

Art isn’t (or more to the point, shouldn’t be) a lofty, unreachable plain for a set of higher beings to interpret. It should be made more accessible, because otherwise, we’ve cut people off from their own culture.

I support artists getting paid to make art, even if some of that money comes from the NEA or a similar organization.  Whether I like their art is beside the point.

Re: architecture, I confess that I like (some) modernist architecture.  A lot of the post-modern designs look like ugly pastiches to me.

Comment #37: Linnaeus  on  09/23  at  12:53 PM

It was supposed to be inspired by like, medieval Scottish castles or something but it was butt ugly. Cinderblock and some chunks of slate, unfinished interiors (on purpose!), stone floors.

Bagelsan,

Was your university/college located in the Greater Boston area by any chance? Sounds like one institution I’ve been to when visiting colleges….though I didn’t get a chance to tour the interior….

le Corbusier can go take a flying bite out of that steaming pile of crap known as Boston City Hall.

One friend felt it accurately reflected the attitudes of many Boston city politicians regarding University sponsored expansionism at the expense of middle and working-class residents and their apparent indifference towards their concerns regarding skyrocketing rents…...

Comment #38: exholt  on  09/23  at  01:34 PM

“Kraut expats?” We’re delving into xenophobia now?  Uh, Le Corbusier, Phillip Johnson, and the kids at SOM were not German, as a heads up. It’s hardly with responding to the provincialism of your comment- suffice it to say it does seem that you’re fairly fond of inane generalizations.

Comment #39: samanthab.  on  09/23  at  02:30 PM

As an artist, I feel it incumbent upon myself to use as much colorless, overwrought phrasing as possible to show you what a philistine I’m not. I’m just not one of those artists who actually makes or likes art.

Comment #40: junk science  on  09/23  at  02:36 PM

And I thought the “kraut expat” thing was sarcastic.

Comment #41: junk science  on  09/23  at  02:37 PM

Yeah, let’s just lock in neoclassical bogus homages to classic Greek and Roman architecture as the only allowed styles of architecture.  We spit on you, Mies van der Rohe, Walter Gropius, Le Corbusier, Phillip Johnson, and that arrogant usurper Frank Lloyd Wright.

What a bizarre post.  In actuality, architecture schools have spent at least two generations indoctrinating people that Modernism is the only allowed architectural style, no matter what ideas people want to try.

And anyone with any knowledge of urban history knows that the so-called “Le Corbusier” was one of the intellectuals who destroyed the 20th century, tearing the heart and soul out of cities while warehousing poor people away where the bourgeoisie could forget about them and they’d have to cross eight lanes of freeway while trying to get to the rare public transportation that was left once “Corbusier”‘s car-humping ideas came to pass.  Every time you pass through what used to be a vibrant city and is now sprawl and disgusting automobile infrastructure, you are seeing the legacy of that disgusting vermin who called himself “Corbusier”.  The only fitting thing for “Corbusier” would be to be exhumed and his corpse defiled, desecrated, and buried in parts in a manure heap.

Comment #42: neff  on  09/23  at  03:18 PM

I don’t know if you’re attempting humor or what, neff, but one of the things that Le Corbusier did was to push the idea of high-density (mass transit friendly) urban housing.  In fact most of his contemporaries, who predominately came from high-density environments in Europe and the American East Coast, did a lot of the same kind of work.

You can argue whether or not what Le Corbusier came up with was empty, cold, soulless or whatnot, and you can argue whether his buildings were sucessful, or merely art imposed on unwilling human occupants, but he did a lot more than the car-oriented Villa Savoye ...

Comment #43: MikeEss  on  09/23  at  03:32 PM

(Sorry for getting passionate, but architecture is my kind of art, both to enjoy and to create…)

Comment #44: MikeEss  on  09/23  at  03:34 PM

Le Corbusier is problematic when it comes to urban studies. He worked for decades to try and come up with a higher standard of living in housing for the poor and working classes, and that’s to his credit. But unfortunately, his designs were translated into the public housing projects we know today: isolated, artificial landscapes that put up roadblocks to community-building.

Comment #45: other_orange  on  09/23  at  03:54 PM

“But unfortunately, his designs were translated into the public housing projects we know today: isolated, artificial landscapes that put up roadblocks to community-building.”

Blaiming Le Corbusier for “sprawl and disgusting automobile infrastructure” is like blaming Wassily Kandinsky for the interior decorating items sold at Target because he was once part of the Bauhaus…

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  09/23  at  04:40 PM

“sprawl and disgusting automobile infrastructure” != the public housing projects other_orange is talking about.

Comment #47: keshmeshi  on  09/23  at  05:34 PM

Every time you pass through what used to be a vibrant city and is now sprawl and disgusting automobile infrastructure

Um, what cities would those be?  Most cities that are disgusting examples of sprawl didn’t really start to develop until after cars were invented.

Comment #48: keshmeshi  on  09/23  at  05:40 PM

As an artist, I feel it incumbent upon myself to use as much colorless, overwrought phrasing as possible to show you what a philistine I’m not. I’m just not one of those artists who actually makes or likes art.

Well—speaking as a conservative, I tend to just ramble on and on, never letting anyone get a word in edgewise until I begin to foam at the mouth and fall over backwards.

Comment #49: Sour Kraut  on  09/23  at  06:31 PM

keshmeshi, what I meant was “when you pass through an area that used to be a vibrant city neighborhood”, e.g. the bulldozed urban-renewalized parts of just about every east coast American city.

Comment #50: neff  on  09/23  at  09:36 PM

@MikeEss

I don’t really have any interest in demonizing Le Corbusier or denying that he was a gifted and imaginative architect, but it can’t be ignored that his designs had a huge impact on the way modern sprawl is constructed. He visualized space as a kind of point-to-point system that people would move through continuously, and so cars seemed like an elegant and natural solution for transit- but I guess the problem was, cities had never really before been constructed around cars, so we couldn’t know that what would happen with his plans (gleaming skyscrapers surrounded by freeways and tiers of worker housing, eventually giving way to suburban low-density housing in natural settings) would become, essentially, sprawl. That the places passed over by the freeways would eventually crumble without connectivity. That the removed blocks and park-like settings he envisioned for the betterment of his worker housing would isolate that worker housing and break down the idea of neighborhoods.

I don’t “blame” him per se, because he truly envisioned that city of the future as a utopia for everyone. But his urban planning undoubtedly influenced the way we think about city space and therefore how we build.

I also don’t really see how interior decorating stuff at Target is a bad thing (if that’s what you meant, otherwise I’m sorry if I misinterpreted!) Beauty (or “design”) paired with functionality in mass consumer goods is a legacy of the Bauhaus and the Constructivists, and I’ll happily give the credit to Gropius, Tatlin, and anyone else who deserves it.

Even if we might disagree, I’m enjoying this conversation, by the way.

Comment #51: other_orange  on  09/24  at  11:11 AM

other_orange, I guess I just thought the vitriol from neff toward Le Corbusier was really over the top.

I can absolutely understand and agree with the idea that architecture took a wrong turn in the 20th Century, and favoring the car over mass transit was one of the major factors at the heart of the trouble.  It just seems odd to me to single out one Swiss/French architect for scorn when so many others also contributed to the mess.

And, as you point out, none of them had any evil purpose in mind — all believed they were doing what they could to help people and bring some beauty to their lives.  That they often failed is tragic, but they did do good things at the same time.  We need to salvage the good, and slough off the bad…

As far as Target decorating items, I was exaggerating as much as anything.  I’ve been pleased with the continuing influence of the Bauhaus and I’m happy that cheap, good-looking, items are available at the mass market level, even if the people buying them are utterly clueless as to how the modern designs they buy came to be.

I would hope the people involved in the Bauhaus would be pleased to see their influence still alive and kicking…

Comment #52: MikeEss  on  09/24  at  12:10 PM

even if the people buying them are utterly clueless as to how the modern designs they buy came to be.


I don’t mind people who are that kind of clueless, what I don’t like is that it’s perceived as ‘safe’ or popular, so that their aesthetic sense doesn’t have to be engaged when they do so.

It is to Santeria what Martha Steward is to Vodun, IMHO.

As for Corbusier, I was told in my art history class that Pruitt-Igoe was a more concrete(pardon the pun) example of his ideas gone terribly wrong.  From the Wiki:

Design and construction
The Pruitt-Igoe complex was composed of 33 buildings of 11 stories each on the Near North Side of St. Louis, Missouri

In 1950 the city commissioned the firm of Leinweber, Yamasaki & Hellmuth to design Pruitt-Igoe, a new complex named for St. Louisans Wendell O. Pruitt, an African-American fighter pilot in World War II, and William L. Igoe, a former U.S. Congressman. Originally, the city planned two partitions: Captain W. O. Pruitt Homes for the black residents, and William L. Igoe Apartments for whites.[13] The site was bounded by Cass Avenue on the north, North Jefferson Avenue on the west, Carr Street on the south, and North 20th Street on the east. Prior to the project’s construction, the land was known as the De Soto-Carr neighborhood, an extremely poor section of St. Louis, a black ghetto.[8]

The project was authored by architect Minoru Yamasaki who would later design New York’s World Trade Center. It was Yamasaki’s first large independent job, performed under supervision and constraints imposed by the federal Public Housing Authority. Initial proposal provided a mix of high-rise, mid-rise and walk-up buildings. It was acceptable to Saint Louis authorities, but exceeded the federal cost limits imposed by the PHA; the agency intervened and imposed a uniform building height at 11 floors.[11][13] Shortages of materials caused by the Korean War and tensions in the Congress further tightened PHA controls.[11]

In 1951 Architectural Forum praised Yamasaki’s original proposal as “the best high apartment” of the year. Overall density was set at a moderate level of 50 units per acre (higher than in downtown slums[11]), yet, according to the planning principles of Le Corbusier and the International Congress of Modern Architects, residents were raised up to 11 floors above ground in an attempt to save the grounds and ground floor space for communal activity.[14] Architectural Forum praised the layout as “vertical neighborhoods for poor people”.[10] Each row of buildings was supposed to be flanked by a “river of trees”,[14] developing a Harland Bartholomew concept.[13] However, parking and recreation facilities were inadequate; playgrounds were added only after tenants petitioned for their installation.

Comment #53: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/24  at  01:12 PM

@MikeEss

Oh, I agree! One person can have an idea, but it takes many people and many structures to implement them. I can’t lay everything at Le Corbusier’s feet. As far as the future-history of architecture, I would just hope that some practical lessons would be learned alongside his design.

And I also love the cheap, pretty things at Target… maybe too much. Ha. I try to shop locally, but good, inexpensive design for the masses is at least within my meagre budget. Like Dark Avenger, I agree I’d like it if people got to know a bit more about the origins of the design, but on the other hand, appreciation doesn’t necessarily have to stem from that knowledge. (Speaking of knowledge, the only Santeria I know is a syncretic Caribbean religion… I must be missing something!)

Comment #54: other_orange  on  09/24  at  01:41 PM

I also can’t think of Gropius without thinking of Lisa Simpson holding up that brochure to “Walter Gropius’s Bauhaus Village.”

And fight the crowds ? Forget it!

Comment #55: other_orange  on  09/24  at  01:44 PM

Speaking of artists and health care, here’s a blog post by Scott Wegener, the artist for one of my favourite comics, Atomic Robo, on how much it sucks to be self-employed because buying private insurance is so incredibly expensive, even when you’re allowed to actually buy it: http://www.atomic-robo.com/2009/09/14/obama-on-my-mind/

Comment #56: Tobasco da Gama  on  09/24  at  01:47 PM

o_o, perhaps you’ve never heard of Vodun?

Vodun cosmology

Vodun cosmology centers around the vodun, spirits and other elements of divine essence which govern the Earth. Vodun has a single divine Creator, called variously Mawu or Nana Buluku, which embodies a dual cosmogenic principle, and of which Mawu, the moon, and Lisa, the sun, are female and male aspects, respectively. (Mawu and Lisa are often portrayed as the twin children of the Creator.) There are a hierarchy of lesser creations, the vodun, which range in power from major deities governing the forces of nature and human society to the spirits of individual streams, trees, and rocks, the more impressive of which may be considered sacred. God does not trifle with the mundane, so the vodun are the centre of religious life. (It is often believed that it is these aspects of the religion, similar in many ways to the Trinity and the intercession of saints and angels, which made Vodun so compatible with Christianity, especially Catholicism, in the New World, and produced such strongly syncretistic religions as Haitian Vodou.)

The pantheon of the vodun is quite large and complex. In one tradition, there are seven daughters and sons of Mawu, which are inter-ethnic and related to natural phenomena or historical or mythical individuals, as well as dozens of ethnic vodun, defenders of a certain clan, tribe, or nation. There is a pantheistic quality to Vodun, since all of Divine Creation is considered divine, and therefore contains the power of the divine. This is a concept vital to medicine, such as herbal remedies, and explains the ubiquitous use of mundane objects in religious ritual.


Link

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/24  at  06:31 PM

other_orange and vitamin C, it’s hard to believe that wealthy people really compare museums to home (unless you specify the original sections of certain small museums like the Phillips Gallery in Washington DC or the Taft Museum in Cincinnati OH, both of which were private homes before they were made into museums). Go into the typical purpose-built art museum, with over-sized gallery and entrance spaces - that looks most like church or theater or concert hall - architecture intended for a specific purpose and for a large audience. I don’t know many American private homes that have open spaces 120 ft by 75 ft,  with 35 foot ceilings (I am guessing the dimensions of the entrance hall of the St. Louis Art Museum).

Of course, the British museum-goer of any class thinks of a giant power plant when thinking of museums - the current Tate modern art and rotating exhibit branch made from an outmoded Thames-side power plant.

When the Pruitt-Igoe towers were first opened, the flats were very popular and sought-after by poor people. Even today, you can read interviews of old people who remember their PI flats fondly as much better than their previous housing, and lament the changes that occurred after the first few years. The problem with PI and similar tower housing for poor families is that the buildings generally are not maintained after their opening, the tenant selection is faulty or breaks down due to vandalizing or criminal relatives of the tenant, the policing is a challenge in any high-rise building, the open spaces are not supervised, and there is generally a lack of recreational facilities built into the original plan. Once the young thugs find out that they can control the buildings by controlling the relatively limited elevators, stairwells, and entrances, the high-rise towers become war zones, and police find excuses not to deal with matters inside the tower complex. Slums composed of walk-up height buildings are still slums and still have young thugs and criminals, but such slums are easier to police. Needless to say, few desirable businesses choose to serve the worst slums, whether high-rise or low-rise. (Just try to find a decent grocery store!)

The problem is the thug population more than the design. Towers for old or physically handicapped poor people, with strict exclusion of minors as long term inhabitants, and with 24-hour guarded and keyed restricted access to the building, can and do function. I would expect that towers in other less violent cultures would function. The unfortunate truth is that the alternative to large-complex public housing, namely mixed-income, mixed-use, low-density housing, simply doesn’t work that well either, since the people with jobs and prospects leave ASAP to avoid the inevitable victimization by thugs.

To improve low-income housing, better schools and better job prospects are more important than architecture, in my opinion.

Comment #58: NancyP  on  09/25  at  04:02 AM
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