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Next entry: And the Roy Cohn Award goes to…John McCain’s chief of staff Mark Buse Previous entry: Southern Baptist bookstore chain yanks magazine with female pastors on cover

Economic crisis and basic human rights

Stories like this, more than anything, expose how much of a lie it is when Republicans go on about how they’re the party of “family values”.  At bare minimum, what families need to be valued is steady employment and reasonable cost of living, both things that have been snatched away from Americans in a frenzy of feed the rich deregulation and other lobbyist gravy trains.  I think that’s what really bothered me about PortlyDyke’s scolding us to remember that some kids in China don’t have vegetables to eat.  In trying to make people feel bad because they’re mocking the very same super-wealthy people who brought this on us for losing their planes or their expensive mistresses, she reminds us that having a house with four walls is considered rich to some people.

I think that’s a little off-base, actually.  Having a house with four walls is a basic human right, and that some people don’t have their basic human rights doesn’t mean those of us who do are lucky so much as those of us who don’t are oppressed.  I refer to a document all Americans would be wiser to familiarize themselves with, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.  Article 25:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.


The right to have a life worth living, i.e. with opportunities for pleasure and self-development, is enumerated elsewhere, in amendments guaranteeing leisure time, cultural expression, and the right to develop your own family. 

What I’m getting at is that I think the UDHR is why PortlyDyke’s “you’re rich to someone” scold misses the point.  The American working and middle class, if things are going well, live a life that’s outlined in this document as the minimum standard of human rights the entire world should aspire to gain for all citizens.  The fabulously wealthy——who, don’t forget, got us into this mess by buying up our democracy—-aren’t rich to “someone”.  They’re rich by the measures of this document laid out in the days after WWII, when the need for real peace and investment in humanity seemed a lot more obvious.  Those of us who have a job, a house or apartment, a reasonable work week, a TV and a stereo and nights out on the town, marriage and children who are entitled to an education, and health insurance are not rich to someone so much as living a lifestyle that should be guaranteed to everyone. 

Mary Elizabeth Williams’ story inclines me to wonder if this current economic crisis is going to affect not just the rate of homelessness and joblessness, but also to the divorce rate and almost surely the abortion rate.  But it’s also a good example of how the “everything’s relative” measurement doesn’t make as much sense as weighing hardships against a basic litany of human rights, such as the UDHR.  The choice that Williams feels breathing down her neck—-get divorced and risk losing the house or stay married and risk losing her soul—-is the sort of thing that falls into the zone of oppressive loss instead of mere loss, such as losing your chartered plane.  Sure, someone else out there is feeling even more severe oppression.  But while accepting that there’s relative levels of oppression, I think we make a judgment call on what is or is not oppression. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:52 AM • (114) Comments

Countdown to the first troll claiming that this is pie-in-the-sky liberal fantasizing, instead of a declaration created in a world that had just gotten a strong dose of reality, first in the form of the Great Depression, then in WWII.

Comment #1: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  12:08 PM

I tangled with her both at Shakesville and at my place over this issue, and I’m with you, Amanda. Not all privilege is created equal. I could sell everything I own, give it to those people in Haiti eating mud pies (and they’re reduced to that state because of US policies, mind you) and it wouldn’t make a whit of difference. But the kind of person who’s complaining that the worst thing they’ve ever had to deal with is giving up the private jet could probably pull the city of Port-au-Prince out of poverty damn near on his own.

Comment #2: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  12:15 PM

Ugh.  One of my absolute least favorite right wing memes is any variation of “well you know some people in X country don’t even HAVE Y!” 

The worst is when it’s used to justify Republican policies. 

My especial favorite lately is that buying local and/or sustainably grown food threatens small farmers in developing countries.  Uhhh, no.  YOU ASSHOLES are already handling that quite nicely.  My failure to buy Dole bananas and pineapples and focus on fair trade coffee, tea, spices, oils, sugar, etc. does not jeopardize the future of small farmers in the third world.  It jeopardizes the future of Dole.  Which was not run by small time third world farmers, last time I checked.

Comment #3: The Opoponax  on  09/22  at  12:24 PM

What exactly is Portlydyke’s point?  Are we supposed to just ignore the $1 trillion wealth transfer because people in China are poorer than us?

I say we ignore the plight of people in China because, as Incertus points out, people in Haiti have it worse.  And we should ignore them because while eating mud in Haiti is bad, at least they aren’t in the middle of a war zone like those in Sudan.  And we can ignore them because blah blah de fucking dah.

I’ve been the guy downtown trying to help the homeless one person at a time.  I’ve been the guy heading to a disaster area to help clean things up and restore people’s lives.  And my wife and I help support some friends - in China! - who are trying to help AIDS patients who are part of an oppressed ethnic minority that doesn’t get the same care from Beijing as the Han Chinese do.  And we give money to SOS Children’s Villages and Amnesty International.

And you know what?  It both makes a difference and none at all.  That’s why I’m a liberal, because I want to actually deal with these problems instead of just doing things that make me feel morally superior. 

In other words, I care about what happens in China and Haiti and the Sudan and New Orleans and Detroit, but right now, none of it is as important as opposing the Wall Street Reverse Robin Hood plan, at least not right now.  Let’s beat this, dammit, and if we do maybe we’ll actually have the resources to do something about these other problems.

Comment #4: Stephen  on  09/22  at  12:31 PM

One of my absolute least favorite right wing memes is any variation of “well you know some people in X country don’t even HAVE Y!”

This is a perfectly reasonable scold to use on children, who need to learn that they’re not the center of the universe, but it’s a horrible thing to say to an adult, and is completely unhelpful.

But that’s the way the right-wing treats people who aren’t as rich or as conservative as they are: like children.

Comment #5: Tyro  on  09/22  at  12:33 PM

I have to stick my neck out here and say- as an honest-to-god Sustainable Development major: okay, first, I hate it when people pull out the “why are you worried about x when there are people starving in Africa!!!”, especially because an economic depression in the US often leads to people starving in Africa.

At the same time, I think an important distinction can be made between the actual material goods that the American Middle Class considers necessary for life, and the rights and abilities (like safety, sanitation, culture, and communication) that those goods provide access to. There are other ways to achieve those goals besides American-style consumer goods, or at least, there had better be.

Comment #6: purpleshoes  on  09/22  at  12:41 PM

“Don’t you know there are children in West Virginia who would kill for some jellied duck egg!?”

Comment #7: Sarcastro  on  09/22  at  12:46 PM

What exactly is Portlydyke’s point?  Are we supposed to just ignore the $1 trillion wealth transfer because people in China are poorer than us?

Even though I tangled with her, I’m going to defend her on this point. She isn’t saying that we should just ignore the bailout, nor is she suggesting that people don’t have the right to be angry over it. She’s saying that in our haste to hang the rich here, we ought not forget that to a lot of people, we’re the rich who need to be hanged, and that’s fine, as far as it goes. But there’s a world of difference between the damage the middle and working classes do and the damage that people like Donald fucking Trump do, and I’m not going to even pretend like I don’t have some righteous indignation at those super-wealthy people who are taking up too much room on this planet.

Comment #8: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  12:49 PM

This is a perfectly reasonable scold to use on children, who need to learn that they’re not the center of the universe

Oh, yeah.  Other similar memes work there, as well.  I remember asking for some ludicrously expensive sneakers circa 4th grade and being told, “you know during the Depression, your grandma didn’t even have her own shoes.  If it was summer, she went barefoot, and in the winter she had her older brother’s hand-me-downs which were always too big.  You’re lucky to get pretty new shoes every time your feet grow a smidge.”

That’s very different from “You want to be able to see a doctor at an affordable cost, whenever you feel under the weather?  Well you know, in Haiti, there ARE no doctors!”

Imagine if people stood outside polling places and tried to intimidate women voters by saying, “you know, in Kuwait, women don’t even have the right to vote, let alone the ability to Vote For Sarah ‘Great Goddess Of The Hunt’ Palin!”  Because this isn’t far off from that.

Comment #9: The Opoponax  on  09/22  at  12:50 PM

There are other ways to achieve those goals besides American-style consumer goods, or at least, there had better be.

Just in case this was brought about by my mention of fair trade:  it’s not that I think I am entitled to gourmet coffee, hand-pressed olive oil, and the like.  It’s more that if I’m going to buy something that didn’t come from within 500 miles of me, I’ll pick something that actually gives a benefit to working people rather than passing that benefit off to Lipton or Folgers or Domino or whatever.  If the world economy changed so that luxury items like spices, coffee, tea, and the like were generally unavailable, I could <strike>easily</strike> (who am I kidding?) do without them.  But in that fair trade products are available at a price point I consider within my means most of the time, it seems better to go with that than to either pick the bad guys or boycott all specialty foods, considering that I’m a tiny drop in the bucket of coffee drinkers or olive oil consumers, and Starbucks and Bertolli aren’t going to notice whether I boycott them or not.

Also, I TOTALLY AGREE with the general gist of your post.  People are going to have to start doing without a lot more stuff, probably a lot sooner than we all think.  And that of course goes for me, too.

Comment #10: The Opoponax  on  09/22  at  12:58 PM

That thing never worked on me.  “You know, there are children in Ethiopia who are starving and you won’t eat your potatoes.” My reaction: “Why didn’t you send them to Ethiopia?”

Comment #11: Mandos  on  09/22  at  01:09 PM

Gosh, I read that post and didn’t find it the least bit scolding, rather, just something to keep in mind. It is, in fact, something I do purposefully keep in mind.  Maybe it spoke to me because I am like her friend who assists people from a far, far different income level than my own.

I even starred that post after I read it, because it really spoke to me.

Comment #12: lizriz  on  09/22  at  01:23 PM

I think I’ve got a theory that Portly and the other Shakesville-ians are gonna come out hard for Anyone-But-Obama, and “You don’t have it so bad, compared to people in Haiti” is going to be part of the rationale.

“Sure, President Palin has banned abortion, taken away voting rights for women and minorities, and is cutting off the hands of everyone who’s not Baptist, but hey, at least we’ve still got our feet!”

Comment #13: Scott  on  09/22  at  01:30 PM

Thanks for addressing this.  That post seriously rubbed me the wrong way.

Comment #14: Em  on  09/22  at  01:31 PM

lizriz, I understand your point and I think that we should be grateful for what we’ve got when we’ve got it, but I was also somewhat put off by PD’s post.  I tend to think that people who are worried about making ends meet, who worry about making house and car payments, who worry about paying for their kids’ educations, who have health worries or insurance worries or whatever, are carrying a big burden.  Those worries are the antithesis of comfort.

There’s also questions around standards of living.  In a bunch of northern communities most people don’t have indoor plumbing.  It doesn’t mean that you’re privileged if you’ve got it if in your community even the most debased housing has indoor plumbing.  I’m grateful that virtually all of us here in my frankly kind of poor rural community have potable water.  That doesn’t mean that everybody with potable water has a privileged life - too many of our neighbors are struggling with the stuff I mentioned earlier.

Comment #15: Melinda  on  09/22  at  01:47 PM

Hey, Scott - who’s the PUMA?

Comment #16: Melinda  on  09/22  at  01:48 PM

“Sure, President Palin has banned abortion, taken away voting rights for women and minorities, and is cutting off the hands of everyone who’s not Baptist, but hey, at least we’ve still got our feet!”

You’ll be wrong on that, Scott, and I’ll put money on it. Now, some of the commenters there have come out firmly for McKinney and the Green Party, but I can guarantee you that not a one of them will go to McCain/Palin, and for you to suggest that shows that you really don’t know the community.

Comment #17: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  01:48 PM

Using the UNDHR against the right is a failing proposition. To wit:

Art. 5 (prohibition of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment)
Art. 6 (recognition as a person before the law)
Art. 8 (effective remedy)
Art. 9 (prohibition of arbitrary arrest, detention or exile)
Art. 10 (fair and public hearing)
Art. 11 (presumption of innocence; no ex post facto laws)

And this isn’t even getting into the social and economic rights. Once torture and indefinite detainment is on the menu, the whole UNDHR is out the window.

Comment #18: S.G.E.W.  on  09/22  at  02:01 PM

I’m living Mary Elizabeth Williams’ dilemma right now: divorce and lose the house, my health insurance, my children’s decent public education, my tenuous grip on a bare-bones middle-class life for my family—or stay married to keep from blowing my kids’ lives to hell but endure deep, daily unhappiness. My husband knows this, and is glad that I’m trapped financially by this shitty economy. It stinks. I should have jumped 5 or 6 years ago, when the risk of financial disaster wouldn’t have been so dire.

Comment #19: Anonymous Today  on  09/22  at  02:02 PM

It reminds me of reminding someone who’s crying at the funeral of their 105-year-old grandma to get some perspective, because after all, it wasn’t the holocaust, in a post that’s mostly read by Bosnian Muslims.

Comment #20: Johnboy godwins the thread  on  09/22  at  02:04 PM

Being told to be grateful for what we have tends to translate right into, “And don’t you dare ask for more.”  That’s not how the labor movement got the 40 hour work week, I’d say.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  02:09 PM

Sure, SGEW.  And?  No one here is saying that those rights aren’t as important, are they?  This isn’t a contest, is my point.  Not. A. Contest.  The Oppression Olympics are a waste of people’s time.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  02:10 PM

I honestly don’t get why teh Portly Dyke’s comments are causing so much anger.  You’d think she was defending the whiny CEOs who are bitching about selling their jets and yachts, when she’s quite clearly not.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  Her basic point, it seems to me, is that we all need to keep our own positions of privilege in mind when we talk about economic realities in the world.  Like I said, I don’t get why that’s controversial—it should only be upsetting to people who won’t admit that they do, in fact, enjoy some degree of privilege.  But I also didn’t get a tone of “scolding” from the original post either—I thought she put herself out there and explored her own conflicting emotions regarding the issue in a quite elegant and honest way.  Her commitment to exploring nuance and complexity makes her one of the best bloggers out there, in my opinion, and I think, frankly, that she deserves better than the outrageous piling-on she’s received in the past 24 hours or so.

Comment #23: Bradley  on  09/22  at  02:12 PM

Three out of 4 of my grandaprents came to the US on refugee visas, and two of them lives through the Great Depression in the USA, which they moved to specifically because it was supposed to be the “land of opportunity.” So, yeah, I’m used to this whole “think about how lucky you are” stuff, which served me well when I was a teenager. It wasn’t so useful when I was an adult being emotionally wallopped by problems at work and personal relationships and not realizing, “I can just leave,” rather than thinking, “in comparison to what could happen, this isn’t so bad.”

You know, no matter how well off a middle class American is, compared to a poor person in India, we’re not the “fat cats” to them. We don’t have servants, we’re not setting people’s salaries, and we’re not demanding government money to help maintain our lifestyles. We’re mostly struggling to get by and perhaps supplementing our lifestyles with a few amenities to keep us going, and we realize how tenuous our position is in life.

So, yes, I think we can make a certain moral condemnation of the rich who are “suffering” because they have to give up their private jets while they abuse their personal assistants and lobby their congressmen to put a stop to initiatives to pass universal health coverage.

Comment #24: Tyro  on  09/22  at  02:13 PM

Oh, SGEW, I’m sorry, I misread you.  The thing is, PortlyDyke isn’t on the right.  She’s on the left.  She just got caught up in the guilt trip, and I suspect, didn’t think it through.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  02:13 PM

Wow, Anonymous Today, your husband sounds like a real dick.

I have long thought that pretty much the entire Shakesville community is through the very best of intentions working for the other side. Every time I hold my breath and go there, I keep hearing people chanting “Reform is the enemy of revolution!” in my head. “PortlyDyke” is the most extreme of this particular trope. If I were a wingnut I would just post her essays verbatim on my site.

Comment #26: felagund  on  09/22  at  02:16 PM

Oh, SGEW, I’m sorry, I misread you.

No problem. Sorry if I wasn’t quite clear enough.

The Oppression Olympics are a waste of people’s time.

Exactly. The whole god damn point of the UNDHR (and other human rights documents) is that there is not a sliding scale of rights, or rights that are “more fundamental.” But try telling that to certain people . . . .

PortlyDyke isn’t on the right.  She’s on the left.

Ah. Well, selective blindness effects us all, despite our best intentions.

Comment #27: S.G.E.W.  on  09/22  at  02:20 PM

(oops. That should read: “. . . blindness affects us all . . . ” of course)

Comment #28: S.G.E.W.  on  09/22  at  02:23 PM

I always have hated the “Someone, somewhere has it worse than you, so you should be grateful” meme. It’s almost always intended to suppress criticism of our “betters” who have decided that it is tolerable that the majority of Americans are facing crushing levels of debt, an unstable job market, and losing the ability to meet their basic needs due to inflation in the cost of goods and services.  It has been used by conservatives to deny giving civil rights to minorities and women.  It should NEVER be the argument of an avowed progressive.

You know, my husband and I either go into debt another $500 each month or barely make our monthly bills.  We do not have enough money to pay down our current debt. We do not have enough money to create a savings. We do not have enough money to absorb the cost if our son needs to go to the ER. We have no health insurance. We rent a home. We drive 11 year old cars. We have no land-line and only basic cable to maintain internet for my and my husband’s work.  We rarely eat out and have not been out for entertainment in four months (and it was almost six before that). I have been looking for work since December and still nothing;  the job market is so bad in my area that businesses are putting absurd qualifications on hiring BECAUSE THEY CAN or will not hire someone with too much experience/education because they won’t be as pliable or willing to work unpaid overtime. And I am not just talking about professional jobs, I am talking about minimum wage level work.

So on this PD can kindly kiss my ass.  Sure, people in China have it rough BUT SO DO I and I don’t think I have to be fucking grateful for barely being able to put a roof over my son’s head or keep him fed.  That level of condescension fucking blows coming from someone whose opinions I usually respect and wholeheartedly agree with.

Comment #29: history_mom  on  09/22  at  02:33 PM

I think there is something there, but it misses the forest for the trees.

It’s not so much about entitlement as compared to people in other countries or anything like that. There’s a large dose of self-entitlement that comes into play here. Not so much in the response to the meltdown, but in how we got here in the first place.

It’s simple. On a cultural level, investments, be it stocks, bonds, real estate, whatever, only have one direction. And that’s WAY up. And that’s something a lot of people are guilty of. This expectation makes a government and a system that works on providing that for people. So values go up and up and up because that’s WHAT THEY DO. So you get a huge bubble.

Your house is not an investment. It’s a place you live. If it goes up in monetary value or down in value doesn’t matter that much. It’s importance is the roof and the walls, the protection from the elements, not in how much you can sell it for.

Your house is not your meal ticket.

That’s where bubbles come from. And this crisis is a bubble-caused crisis. Like it or not, we are all to blame. Or at least most of us. We’ve blown air into the bubble. And in fact, we still ARE blowing air into the bubble.  And I don’t see that stopping anytime soon. There will come a day where a substantial portion of our population are going to go to liquidify their retirement fund. And the expected resources are not going to be there. And we’re going to go through this mess yet again.

Comment #30: Karmakin  on  09/22  at  02:36 PM

I read Portly Dykes post prior to reading this one and my initial reaction was to feel better about $53 of groceries on a credit card recently (which at the moment I was beating myself up about). Totally personal, totally minor dialogue in my mind. Food/Gas prices mixed with student debt are causing me problems, but my mental acrobatics are not helping and her post helped me to remember that.

Now, I have to say I TOTALLY get the concern that such arguments, “You might think you’re suffering but people in X are REALLY suffering” plays into political arguments that prop up bad systems. Sort of like the distraction game Republicans like to play when talking about taxes—“Don’t you just hate that YOUR money is going to welfare moms” when in reality the vast majority of tax dollars go to corporate welfare and defense and barely a penny to social safety net programs.

I think that her post has to be taken in the context of the Liberal Blogosphere—where those fake arguments against the social good are taken down for the bullshit that they are, and where those personal anxieties about money can be at least somewhat assuaged by perspective. So, if this post were say in the New Republic I would have had a very different reaction, but as I am familiar with Portly Dyke and where she’s coming from, I know that her argument was not made in bad faith, but rather perspective sharing.

peace

Comment #31: Thealogian  on  09/22  at  02:37 PM

So, yeah, I’m used to this whole “think about how lucky you are” stuff, which served me well when I was a teenager. It wasn’t so useful when I was an adult being emotionally wallopped by problems at work and personal relationships and not realizing, “I can just leave,” rather than thinking, “in comparison to what could happen, this isn’t so bad.”

Fucking THANK YOU.  May I add that it’s not only dispossessed grandparents that can teach you this sort of self-flagellation?  It can come very easily from religion as well.  Offer up your sorrows for the glory of god, children, because so many have it worse than you.  And straight from patriarchy itself: be thankful he only beats you when he’s drunk!  I am NOT saying that being struggling middle-class is comparable to this example.  I AM saying that it is all too damn easy, especially for women,  to learn the “lesson” that you have more than you deserve, so shut up and be grateful, and have that transfer over to your entire life.  When you you go to therapy to learn how to stop being paralyzed by everything you see as your “privilege” (in quotes b/c some of it IS privilege, and some of it is just your overactive guilt complex telling “you don’t deserve it, you worthless piece of shit”), then the last thing you need is yet another reminder that lots of people “deserve it” more than you.

Comment #32: Em  on  09/22  at  02:43 PM

Incertus:

Should we start the “anyone who votes for the greens is effectively voting for McCain” fight?

Comment #33: paul  on  09/22  at  02:52 PM

Even though I tangled with her, I’m going to defend her on this point. She isn’t saying that we should just ignore the bailout, nor is she suggesting that people don’t have the right to be angry over it. She’s saying that in our haste to hang the rich here, we ought not forget that to a lot of people, we’re the rich who need to be hanged, and that’s fine, as far as it goes.

See, to me, that observation makes it more imperative to “hang the rich”, because my gods, if they are oppressing us, what the hell are they doing to people less fortunate than us? Face it: rich Americans who own any significant stock in any global corporation can be held directly responsible for the Chinese poor. There is no disconnect between “they are fucking us over” and “they are fucking over a lot of other people a lot worse”: the solution to both problems is “make them stop fucking people over” (rather than “let us take over so we can fuck everyone else over”).

If we accept the proposition that “the poorest person in America is rich compared to X place in the world”, then shouldn’t we spend more effort taking down the people that Americans consider obscenely wealthy? Consider being on a jury and looking at two violent offenders: if the behavior of Offender A makes Offender B quake in fear and lose his lunch at the thought of it, would anyone in the jury box be distracted by Offender A’s lawyer saying, “Well, yes, my client disembowled the victim with his teeth, but you have to realize that Offender B punched the victim in the jaw, too!” 

I guess I see the “lots of people have it worse off than you do” as a case not so much of “yes, but…”: it’s more a “And what’s worse is…” argument.

Comment #34: Dorothy  on  09/22  at  02:55 PM

Yeah, I fully agree with your post, but I also need to defend PD against some of the attacks here.

That she didn’t think it through is true, that it evoked these frames is true, but I also understand why she did it.

She’s afraid. Her whole post is to herself. A desperate cling for her sanity in the face of economic collapse. I don’t begrudge her that, even though I disagree on it being the best tactic. What you need (if it harms none) to get through the day is important.

That she tried to universalize her personal survival mechanism is unfortunate and pitiable, but it does not deserve scorn, nor does it mean she yearns for conservatism or that she doesn’t devote her time and energy slavishly for the advancement of liberalism and leftism as a philosophy.

Anyways, beyond that, yeah, what Amanda said is exactly what pissed me off about her post.

Comment #35: Cerberus  on  09/22  at  02:59 PM

The UNDHR has a few parts that always kind of bugged me.  The overall thing is that several of its rights, read broadly, conflict with each other, or can be read as denying rights.

One of them is highlighted in your quote—“of himself and his family”, as if the other people in the family are an appurtenance to the _real_ person, the male head-of-household.  See the similar wording in article 23.

Another is article 16.3 “The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.”  Does this protection extend against people wanting to leave?  Well, maybe not against wife or husband, given article 16.1 “,They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution”, but who says dissolution must always be allowed?  And children are people too.  At least this specifies “group unit”, as the phrase ““the family is the basic unit of society,” with no qualification is quite common in other UN works.

Then there’s article 29.3: These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Comment #36: Aaron Denney  on  09/22  at  03:04 PM

To be completely frank, this planet doesn’t have enough resources to provide an American, or even European, middle class lifestyle to 7 billion people.  I don’t agree with the hair shirt scolds who try to shut down valid complaints with “But they’re eating mud pies in Haiti,” but it’s still important to maintain perspective.  And to remember that the American middle class lifestyle is unsustainable and luxurious enough that the majority of humanity will never be able to attain it.

Comment #37: keshmeshi  on  09/22  at  03:21 PM

Aaron, it was written in 1948.  It’s great to revise it to get the sexism out, but only if that can be done w/out attacking basic principles.

Keshmeshi, agreed and something people should take seriously if we take seriously the basic human rights of all people.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  03:37 PM

And of course, there are ways to make the working class American lifestyle more efficient that we don’t take, starting with getting us off the automobile.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  03:51 PM

Incertus:

Should we start the “anyone who votes for the greens is effectively voting for McCain” fight?

Not with me, because I don’t believe it. Not everyone is willing to vote strategically, and to me, one’s vote is the most personal of all the potential political actions one can take. I’m a strategic voter, but not everyone is, and I don’t begrudge them that. It’s the candidate’s job to earn votes, and if a person feels the candidate hasn’t done enough on matters that are dealbreakers for her or him, I’m not going to judge that voter. Even at this point in the election, partisan as I am, Obama could conceivably d something that would make me vote for McKinney—I can’t quite think of what it would be, but it’s possible.

Comment #40: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  03:55 PM

“Face it: rich Americans who own any significant stock in any global corporation can be held directly responsible for the Chinese poor.”

While there is certainly much to atone for in the relationship of The West with China over the last 500-years, this probably drastically overstates our responsibility.  We have bought a lot from China which has helped many rise above mere subsistence.  As America enters our Lesser Depression, we will probably harm them more because of reduced purchases on our part…

Comment #41: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  04:01 PM

I think you have to also read the UN Declaration in the context of things it was written in opposition to—when people are recruiting family members to rat one another out to the police, or saying that children should be raised entirely by the state and avoid contact with their biological parents, or setting up economic conditions so that one parent has to work several days travel from spouse and offpsring, that tends to focus the mind on keeping families together in the face of outside pressures rather than worrying about how they might naturally fission or how they might arrange themselves internally.

Comment #42: paul  on  09/22  at  04:07 PM

Sure, I don’t think there’s some crazy UN conspiracy to weaken human rights in the guise of guaranteeing them—just a certain blindness to some justifications for oppression.  And, of course, vague terms make it easier to pass. But I also think that these justifications are used, and will continue to be used.

Comment #43: Aaron  on  09/22  at  04:19 PM

Amanda, by bringing up the UN, you’re just ASKING for right wing trolling.

I’m surprised no one has accused you of being an International Communist scheming to integrate the USA into the secretly-planned North American Union.

Comment #44: Ben D.  on  09/22  at  04:29 PM

I was taken aback at PD’s post as I felt it is not only a distraction from focusing on the true culprits of the problems being discussed, but also can be too easly co-opted by right-wing bloggers to attack those who dare demand their fair share. 

We have bought a lot from China which has helped many rise above mere subsistence.

Though you’re correct in the context of the creation of the Chinese upper/upper-middle classes, those classes are a tiny minority compared to the majority of the Chinese populace. 

More importantly, US/Western investors and consumers played a crucial part in the market-oriented reforms which ended up creating a small rising upper/middle classes…..and the vast majority whose economic security and well-being became much more precarious due to the dismantling of Maoist social-welfare programs and closing of inefficient State-Owned Enterprises during the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. 

It is a great concern among the CCP leadership as even they realize that using the military to stave off student and more importantly, working-class discontent as they did in June 4th, 1989 won’t always be effective in cowing the people….especially if they feel they have nothing left to lose.

Comment #45: exholt  on  09/22  at  04:35 PM

Context is what’s needed in the discussion of “you have it better than xyz”.  An American living in a homeless shelter could be considered well-off compared to the children living in the garbage dumps of Mexico City (because he has access to meals and a dry bed), but under no circumstances could we say that that person is well-off compared to the society in which he lives. 

I spent a few years living a nearly homeless existence while working a white-collar job (and hiding my living situation).  Yes, it could have been worse, but living with the stress of keeping up appearances underminded my health, my marriage, and my sanity.  When your community is undergoing the same hardships that you are, there’s often a “let’s pull together since we’re in the same boat” dynamic at work.  There is nothing lonelier than feeling like you’re the only one with these trouble and hearing that we “living in the richest nation in the world and feel grateful because it could be so much worse.”

Comment #46: NobleExperiments  on  09/22  at  04:38 PM

The difficulty with the various “human rights” referenced by Amanda is that there has never been in the history of this planet an economy of any reasonable scale that can meet that burden for any period of time.  A kibbutz or commune can interface with the economy at large and prosper because of the clear sacrifices to the outside economies standards of living they are willing to accept.  Communal living, limited/restricted diets, lack of savings/individual economic security, etc.  But even these models, while a sustainable alternative in some ways to the economy at large, don’t deliver all the stated human rights.  One can not become a Dr in a commune, for example, so sustained delivery of health care can not be met without participation in the outside economy to attain missing skills, which then by defnition requires the existence of a high level alter-economy.

The nations that have to date incorporated some of these rights into their governmental structures face the inability to deliver against these promises long term.  Either corruption, economic disincentives, or the sheer weight of the economic burden put all citizens at risk long term.  It is already recognized in Denmark, for instance, where 4 out of 10 workers pay a combined marginal tax rate of at least 70%, that the retirement age needs to be raised because the nation can’t continue to provide the levels of benefits they do today.  Furthermore the labor pool is artificially shallow because citizens don’t see a benefit to move into the workforce if most of their basic needs are being met.  Thus, econonmic growth can not be sustained through anything but productivity increases which won’t materialze because of wage competition.  To have too little economic risk for the individual is to remove one of the vital cogs in economic growth - namely the desire to better one’s own position.  Individual consumers operate like individuals - not part of a collective.  They measure their options and opt in and out of a centralized economy when it benefits them.  Long term, that creates a pretty big problem.

Comment #47: Dr T  on  09/22  at  04:39 PM

I wonder how much it hurts a poor person when oil goes up $25 per barrel, in one day…

Comment #48: R2K  on  09/22  at  04:48 PM

And yet somehow our economy can handle $700 billion bailouts and the Iraq War.

You’re completely wrong, Dr. T.  For the money spent on Iraq alone, we could have gotten very close to that goal.  If we liquidated the assets of the top 400 richest people in this country, we could help everyone in this country be a homeowner.  You have no idea what kind of scale “rich” means in this country, but then again, being able to grasp hard to imagine things, like other thinking, was never your strong suit.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  04:49 PM

“And yet somehow our economy can handle $700 billion bailouts and the Iraq War. “

Actually, I’m beginning to doubt it can.

Comment #50: Ben D.  on  09/22  at  04:50 PM

Dr T, no one was saying anything about communes. I’m not sure where you got that from.

To have too little economic risk for the individual is to remove one of the vital cogs in economic grwoth - namely the desire to better one’s own position.

The second clause contradicts the first. Adding lots of risk to the economic system does not mean that growth is being driven by the “desire to better one’s own position.” Rather, it’s being driven by the desire not to lose one’s own position. See David Frum’s “Dead Right” for an explanation about how this feeling of insecurity and risk of catastrophic failure is a necessity to promote culturally conservative free-market systems.

Now that I’ve corrected your misperceptions, I can’t see what the rest of your comment has to do with Amanda’s post. Did you just decide to write about what happened to be on your mind when you woke up today?

Comment #51: Tyro  on  09/22  at  04:53 PM

Dr T is using the other side of the “if somebody else has it worse, shutup” comparison coin.  Some other country has a problem, it must be because they treat their citizens humanely, therefore the US should not protect its citizens from capitalist predation.

Dr T, what would you do if you actually lived in your libertarian paradise — but you were in the bottom 50% instead of the top 5%?  Would things still look so cool in your Ayn Randian Utopian dream world?...

Comment #52: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  04:59 PM

R2K, the rising price of oil hurts the poor in more ways than the gasoline prices at the pump.  Food prices don’t affect the wallets of the wealthy or even the middle class in the same way they affect the poor.  People on a fixed income, like Social Security or disability, with no chance to earn extra money to offset the rising cost of living are most affected.  Some fixed prices like rent aren’t affected so much, but for people paying their own utilities, having to pay more for gas and electricity means less food on the table.

Comment #53: G Porgey  on  09/22  at  05:02 PM

Opoponax, that’s not what I meant, actually - I am a fair-trade buyer as well, when I can, and of course I have my criticisms of how well those systems work but you’re right that if I’m going to buy coffee, and I have the money, then really why not at least try.

No, I meant the broader question of whether a middle-class American lifestyle - materially - is necessary to really be a Free and Developed Human Being. I really hope it’s not, because obviously only a small fraction of the people on this planet can engage in that kind of consumption without denying everyone else some far more basic rights. Like the right to drink water, breathe air, and eat food, or at least that’s how it seems some days.

Comment #54: purpleshoes  on  09/22  at  05:03 PM

Dr T, what would you do if you actually lived in your libertarian paradise — but you were in the bottom 50% instead of the top 5%?  Would things still look so cool in your Ayn Randian Utopian dream world?…

That could never happen, because Dr. T is actually the real-life John Galt, and unfortunate things never happen to such a superman. That’s why libertarianism is fundamentally silly to anyone who’s ever had something shitty happen to themselves or a family member—because most people understand that sometimes shit just happens, and there’s nothing to be done about it, and if it happens to you, you want someone to help you out.

Comment #55: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  05:04 PM

”...because most people understand that sometimes shit just happens, and there’s nothing to be done about it, and if it happens to you, you want someone to help you out.”

...just as most of will help out somebody if we can when we know they have some problem they can’t handle.  Pretty basic human social concept…

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  05:14 PM

Cerberus, I might have been willing to give PD the benefit of the doubt that her post unintentionally triggered a lot of negative feelings, but her defense and pulling out the “Check.Your.Privilege” card when called out on it makes me inclined not to give her a pass.  Her responses in that thread were dismissive and meant to shut down criticism of her post. 

The post sucked because it assumed that most of us don’t realize we have it better than people in less developed countries (I do and always have, thank you very much). It sucked because it assumed that knowing that should somehow make the fact that I don’t have money for groceries this week less stressful (sorry, but it doesn’t).  It sucked because it asks me to have fucking sympathy for the fat cats WHEN I’M NOT SURE WHETHER I WILL HAVE A ROOF OVER MY AND MY SON’S HEAD AT THE END OF THE MONTH BUT THEY CAN WHINE ABOUT LOSING THEIR FUCKING PERSONAL JET (boo fucking hoo).  And I am angry because if I and others feel it this much, then Americans below us and those in other countries need us to fucking hold these bastards responsible for it—with our votes and with our rage. They don’t need us getting all Zen on the idea that billions of others are suffering more than we do.

Comment #57: history_mom  on  09/22  at  05:30 PM

You’re completely wrong, Dr. T.  For the money spent on Iraq alone, we could have gotten very close to that goal.  If we liquidated the assets of the top 400 richest people in this country, we could help everyone in this country be a homeowner.  You have no idea what kind of scale “rich” means in this country, but then again, being able to grasp hard to imagine things, like other thinking, was never your strong suit.

I read somewhere that for the money spent fighting the First World War illiteracy could have been wiped out worldwide.

Comment #58: ummeli  on  09/22  at  05:30 PM

Lol @ Shaver Razorback Palin!

smile

Comment #59: R2K  on  09/22  at  05:41 PM

I think history_mom has it here (as do various folks further up)—the fact that even many poor people in the US are terribly wealthy by third-world standards only means something if you’re talking about transferring money/resources between poor or middle-class people in and poor or middle-class people in the third-world. It’s irrelevant to discussions of transfers from the US middle class to the US super-rich, except as a distraction.

“I felt sad because I had no shoes, until I met someone who had no feet. And let me tell you, that experience made me feel completely OK with buying a new Escalade for the jerkwad down the street.”

Comment #60: paul  on  09/22  at  05:42 PM

“I read somewhere that for the money spent fighting the First World War illiteracy could have been wiped out worldwide.”

National defense, homeland security, Wall Street bailouts, etc., are all apparently solved by throwing massive amounts of cubic cash at them (maybe even literally).

But for some reason, healthcare, education, poverty, homelessness, and general human misery are completely unaddressable by monetary expenditure.  Your best chance is church or something.

I’ve never understood that…

Comment #61: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  05:48 PM

While there is certainly much to atone for in the relationship of The West with China over the last 500-years, this probably drastically overstates our responsibility.

I probably wasn’t very clear: I meant that the people who own and run global corporations are directly responsible for the working poor. Corporations moved their factories overseas specifically to take advantages of the lack of environmental regulations, safety regulations, minimum wage laws, and any kind of workers’ rights advocates or unions. The concept of an overseas sweatshop chaining children to their workstations wasn’t seen as a tragedy: it was a feature.

Comment #62: Dorothy  on  09/22  at  05:51 PM

Dr T, no one was saying anything about communes. I’m not sure where you got that from.

In the land of entitled American conservatives, a “commune” is anyone who lives more than 1 person per thousand square feet of structural living space.  So when Dr. T says, sure, maybe some “communes” can accomplish that sort of thing, what he means is that some societies that don’t put the emphasis on McMansion development and ownership can.

Comment #63: The Opoponax  on  09/22  at  06:02 PM

Dorothy, I’ll go along with that. 

In contrast with many countries, the Chinese government seems really good at directly exploiting its own citizens, as opposed to merely being corrupt and turning a blind eye to exploitation by outsiders and others. 

Which does not excuse those capitalists who use this fact for their advantage.  If you’re a villager making pennies a day it doesn’t much matter if your government sold you out or somebody else did…

Comment #64: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  06:03 PM

Ummeli - I read once in an article in a magazine that for all the money that was spent in the Vietnam War the world could have abolished muscular dystrophy (at least).

Comment #65: Mailik Washington Carver  on  09/22  at  06:04 PM

No, I meant the broader question of whether a middle-class American lifestyle - materially - is necessary to really be a Free and Developed Human Being. I really hope it’s not, because obviously only a small fraction of the people on this planet can engage in that kind of consumption without denying everyone else some far more basic rights.

That’s what I thought you were saying, in general, and fully agree.

Comment #66: The Opoponax  on  09/22  at  06:04 PM

In contrast with many countries, the Chinese government seems really good at directly exploiting its own citizens, as opposed to merely being corrupt and turning a blind eye to exploitation by outsiders and others.

It is not an either/or situation….but one where the majority of the Chinese populace are being exploited by the CCP government at all levels, suffering under its corruption…especially at provincial and local levels, and turning a blind eye to exploitation by domestic and foreign owned corporations.

Comment #67: exholt  on  09/22  at  06:42 PM

Consider the question of whether the average American threatened by the downturn has earned their position.  I believe those reacting against PD’s comments think they actually have, and that the really wealthy have not, having gotten their money through game-playing that now threatens us all.  Those in agreement with PD possibly believe that, to some extent, the average American has not earned their position, and it has been achieved only through exploiting the rest of the world.

I sometimes suspect that the holier-than-thou wing of the Left believes that economic production just happens automatically, like the weather or the water cycle.

Comment #68: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/22  at  06:45 PM

Whenever anyone would actually like to show a sustainable alternative to my econonmic argument we can debate.  Amanda, if you liquidated the top 400 richest Americans and gave everyone a house, the houses middle Americans put their savings into would be worth zero - destroying the remaining wealth of the middle class.  Additionally, you would wipe out individual investment capital, which is the main source for funding business expansions - even if Wall Street does a poor job funneling it currently.  So you would destroy the middle class and leave the country with no ability to grow going forward.  Good plan.

When I refer to a commune I really mean communes - which generally are viewed as voluntarily forfeiting individual rights for the betterment of the group.  Not an instinct which resides within most men, thus there hasn’t been an economic system which deals fairly with other individuals. 

You all seem to think I am defending the status quo.  Quite the contrary, I think the government meddling in markets has caused the mess we are in.  I also agree that the human rights listed would be a wonderful thing to devlier to humanity - but in the long term, not the utopian short term where everybody feels good for 2 years and the, we have a civil war because bread costs a wheelbarrow full of money.  Economic systems have to be built to sustain a country - not out of a sense of guilt or good intentions.  No system can guarantee economic equality and sustainability.  That’s the facts.

Comment #69: Dr T  on  09/22  at  06:48 PM

Wow, reading portly dyke’s post reminded me of why I don’t visit Shakesville, or Shakeville’s Sister, for that matter.  For the most part, commenters above me are entirely correct that PD’s post was a preemptive censure of the some poor Ethiopean kid would love to eat as well as you variety.

What I think is *absent* in the chorus of why we think Portly Dyke is wrong, is the story itself.

Forget the pity for the fat cats.  We’re not angry at the fat cats because it’s time to be angry at them.

We’re angry at the fat cats because they put our livelyhoods at risk.  We’re angry at the fat cats because we will have to pay increased taxes to save said livelyhoods, whether via direct taxes or by inflation.  We’re angry at the fat cats because they insist that they suffer no penalty for being egregiously wrong.

In this context, PD is, at the minimum, egregiously insensitive, and playing on the side not aligned with her repute.

Comment #70: shah8  on  09/22  at  06:49 PM

To add a coda to that last point, PD is oh-so-sympathetic to the people eating mud in Haiti. Jared Diamond’s comments on the differences between Haiti and the Dominican Republic in “Collapse” are probably worth reading here.

Comment #71: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/22  at  06:49 PM

“You all seem to think I am defending the status quo.  Quite the contrary, I think the government meddling in markets has caused the mess we are in.”

...so you believe we didn’t remove enough economic controls on the financial firms?  Maybe we can abolish the SEC, the Treasury Dept., and the Federal Reserve while we’re at it.

After all, if we’re in for <strike>a trillion</strike> 2-trillion, we might as well be in for 10-trillion, right?...

Comment #72: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  06:58 PM

PD’s post was about fear and expectations and looking at those dark places in your soul.  People don’t want to hear what she is saying because we aren’t mad at the fat cats for having and losing.  We are mad at them because they just blew the entire structure of the American Dream to hell and back.  That everyone could become a fatcat if things just worked out right was aways there and for the last few years was dramatically played out on the front pages.  Any kid with a college education could get a job on Wall Street and being making millions in bonuses, retire early to yachts and country places.  Those expectations were a house of cards and now we have to look at why we bought into those expectations in the first place and what it cost even those who were only on the sides of the feeding frenzy.  Those who bought just that much too big because the markets would only go up.  Those who piled on student loans getting that perfect degree and now are looking at starting over.  The people who borrowed to start a business that is at risk because the customers are now looking at joblessness.
It is all based on what our expectations were then and now we need to look at them again.  At the start of the process is the one thing that she points out that everyone ignores- the fear.  The fear of change and having to look at where we are in a new light.  The fear of having to go back to what you thought that you had escaped.  Fear isn’t a healthy way to live and it is definitely not a progressive way to live.

Comment #73: Hawise  on  09/22  at  07:07 PM

Jared Diamond’s comments on the differences between Haiti and the Dominican Republic in “Collapse” are probably worth reading here.

I like Diamond a lot, and agree with him most of the time, but if my memory serves, he didn’t really get into the behind-the-scenes bullshit that the US has pulled in re Haiti for the last couple hundred years. Our government has consistently undermined every attempt by Haiti to right their economic and agricultural ship, with only a few exceptions. I don’t know why, and I suspect no one really does anymore, but our government’s policies toward Haiti are criminal, and they’re probably the least known story in the US.

Comment #74: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  07:11 PM

Tyro: “well you know some people in X country don’t even HAVE Y!”—This is a perfectly reasonable scold to use on children,

I’d be really careful with that—just from what I observed it can have all kinds of unexpected side effects, from the kid stuffing the brokkoli in an envelope and trying to mail it to Africa, to the (slightly older) kid hounding the parents restlessly to sell all they and give it to the poor, to the kid giving everything s/he owns to charity, or deciding s/he won’t eat and will sleep on the floor from now on. And then s/he’ll decide that the parents are the greatest liasr and hypocrites ever to darken the earth because they won’t even give up their car and have a homeless person in the guest room.

Comment #75: inge  on  09/22  at  07:17 PM

Oh and to put a bit of twist on my sneer…

This bailout proposal means that Haitians will get less aid.  That people in Malawi gets less fertilizer aid.  That women in Bangladesh gets fewer microcredits programs setup, that women in India have less access to family planning services.

So when you’re marvelling to youself the intricacies of ways that fear kills as a means to avoid truly unpleasant emotions like the present fear of losing your house, forgive me if I snort and leave you be.  It ain’t all about you, or all of us middle-class…

Comment #76: shah8  on  09/22  at  07:39 PM

I read somewhere that for the money spent fighting the First World War illiteracy could have been wiped out worldwide.

Is has been said (I haven’t checked the numbers) that for the cost of the Iraq war you could get a manned Mars expedition and still have money left: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2008/05/alternative_boondoggles.html .

Not that a manned Mars expedition would help anyone much, but neither does the Iraq war…

Comment #77: inge  on  09/22  at  07:39 PM

People don’t want to hear what she is saying because we aren’t mad at the fat cats for having and losing.  We are mad at them because they just blew the entire structure of the American Dream to hell and back.

I don’t know about you, but I’m mad at the fat cats because they completely fucked up the entire economy and now expect me to pay them for having done it.  I’m mad at the fat cats because they didn’t just blow the American Dream—they brought back the Great fucking Depression and now we’re all going to have to suffer for what they did.  And by “all” I mean the entire world, not just the United States.  This financial disaster means that poor people all over the world are going to suffer even more than they are already.

I haven’t been under the impression that I was going to do well financially since I graduated from college in 1993 with my fellow students holding “Will Work For Food” as a dark joke.  I’m not sure who you’re talking to that thought they were automatically going to be handed a house and a car when they turned 30.

But thank you for letting me know I’m not “really” mad at the people who fucked up the world economy, I’m just upset that I personally won’t get the American Dream.  I guess I should start feeling sorry for the poor, poor financiers who just can’t afford to upgrade their jets this year.

Comment #78: Mnemosyne  on  09/22  at  07:51 PM

our government’s policies toward Haiti are criminal, and they’re probably the least known story in the US.

And it’ll stay that way. Currently at least one state (any guesses for which one?) bans any mention of—even any literary allusion to—American intervention in Haiti in student textbooks.

Apparently it hurts the fee-fees of people whose husbands used to be Marines.

Comment #79: Well, what?  on  09/22  at  07:52 PM

PiaToR: I see it more as a variant of the cake eating dilemma. Having no cake in a place where bread does not exists makes you just as hungry as having no bread.  (There was an old “in Soviet Russia” joke along these lines which I do not quite remember.)

Losing your house and your cars and having to move into a rental flat in a part of town with good public transportation—bad luck and bitching rights, but you were living in luxury and now you aren’t. But lose your house and your cars and the only accomodation you can get is a roach infested motel room where robberies are common and you are too far from your place of work to keep your job, you’re just as SOL as your roommate who lost the humble flat.

Comment #80: inge  on  09/22  at  07:55 PM

”Being told to be grateful for what we have tends to translate right into, “And don’t you dare ask for more.” That’s not how the labor movement got the 40 hour work week, I’d say.”

Marry me?

Seriously though, when I first started to read Pandagon, I would read a post before looking who wrote it.  Nine times out of ten if I liked the post then Jesse wrote it.  When you joined it was a 50/50 shot that it was written by you or Jessie

But that line is the single best thing written in Pandagon’s history

“He asked for little and less was granted
Lest getting little he would ask for more” – somebody, I forget where it comes from

Comment #81: jefft452  on  09/22  at  08:12 PM

Is it just me, or is Shakesville slowly going the way of No Quarter—turning into what is functionally a Republican site, under cover of “radical feminism!!!1!!1!” ?

Between PD’s rant about “just be gateful for what you have before demanding some measley scraps from the Wall Street bailout, you plebs” on the one hand, and Melissa McEwan’s devolution into a PUMA in all but name, what’s left to like over there?

If “Feminism” can be used to rationalize and accomodate all the bullshit you see at Shakesville, then “feminism” doesn’t have any use as an analytical tool or a political category any more.

Comment #82: moron  on  09/22  at  08:46 PM

You know, I really appreciate it if people who have a problem with my posts point to quotes of what I actually wrote, and then ream me a new one, rather than present their interpretation of what I said, and ream me for that. 

With the former approach, I actually learn something.  With the latter approach, not so much.

Comment #83: PortlyDyke  on  09/22  at  08:58 PM

Funny, PD, when people did exactly that in the comments thread you expressed bewilderment that anyone could possibly read you that way. The kind of bewilderment which makes it the reader’s problem, not the writer’s. And as someone who’s reacted exactly that way to someone else’s “misreading” I’m familiar with the symptoms.

Comment #84: Auguste  on  09/22  at  09:06 PM

Well for my part I’m sorry I misinterpreted, and thanks for the response.

Though I did read the post before commenting.

On second reading, it can support more than one interpretation.

If it had been on some other blog, I probably wouldn’t have jumped to that conclusion, that it was trying to support a Republican viewpoint.

But I have to reiterate about the context:

Shakesville, mostly but not entirely due to Melissa, has become a PUMA blog.

Of the posts that deal with national politics, more than half—considerably more—are devoted to slagging Obama and undermining his chances in a close election.

It’s really past the point where Shakesville is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. 

But in retrospect, I should have given your post a more generous reading…

Comment #85: moron  on  09/22  at  09:06 PM

”We are mad at them because they just blew the entire structure of the American Dream to hell and back.  That everyone could become a fatcat if things just worked out right was aways there and for the last few years was dramatically played out on the front pages.  Any kid with a college education could get a job on Wall Street and being making millions in bonuses, retire early to yachts and country places.”

Maybe if you’re too young to know anything but Reaganism

But I spent my childhood in the country FDR left us.  The day I got out of High School I put applications into all the big factories in my area.  After 2 years working at crap jobs and re-applying every month like everybody else my age, I got what I called my “Real Job”.  I assumed that I would stay at the same place for 40 years or so and retire with a decent pension, health care (dental and eye glasses included) would never be a financial burden, I would be able to buy a house someday, support myself, a wife and 2.4 kids on one paycheck, and as long as I didn’t do anything really stupid, like stealing from the company or showing up drunk for work my union would make sure this state of affairs would continue until I was in my grave (and my widow would be able to pay for the funeral and not get thrown out of her home or have to eat dogfood)

That used to be what the “American Dream” was, then we let Reagan be Reagan and its been down hill ever since

I made out ok, nice desk job, no big financial headaches,
But am I bitter?

Well, If you sank the yachts, torched the mansions, and take those who make millions on Wall Street and roast them on spits, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, might even toast some marshmallows

Comment #86: jefft452  on  09/22  at  09:07 PM

Well, If you sank the yachts, torched the mansions, and take those who make millions on Wall Street and roast them on spits, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, might even toast some marshmallows

That’s a horrible, horrible thing to say.

The mansions and yachts are treated with preservatives that would probably spoil the marshmellows.  On the other hand, you could wrap potatoes in tinfoil and roast them in the ashes quite happily.

Comment #87: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/22  at  09:15 PM

“Funny, PD, when people did exactly that in the comments thread you expressed bewilderment that anyone could possibly read you that way.”

I actually conversed with commenters until past 2 am last night, and asked them to cite specifics from my post, and have been thinking about the post most of the day.  I take responsibility for the words I type, and I usually consider my posts pretty intensely before I post them.  I’m still trying to work out whether I truly mis-communicated my intent that disastrously (which I entertain as a distinct possibility), or whether I just pushed a big button with people (which I also entertain as a distinct possibility).

“Shakesville, mostly but not entirely due to Melissa, has become a PUMA blog.”

Funny, that.  I’m a contributor there, and I’m no PUMA.

Comment #88: PortlyDyke  on  09/22  at  09:15 PM

Maybe if you’re too young to know anything but Reaganism.

Reagan was first elected when I was 11, so you’re probably right.  My generation has never had any illusions that we would be able to easily get high-paying jobs or long-term jobs.  Heck, we were lucky to graduate from college less than $20,000 in debt.

Nobody wants to hear about “Generation X” anymore (partly because it was a really stupid name and a really self-indulgent book) but it’s true that we got screwed by being born at the wrong time.  The generation after us will be the one that fills in the employment gaps that the Baby Boomers leave behind and we’ll still be struggling to find stinkin’ administrative jobs to pay the bills.

But I’m not bitter.  wink

Comment #89: Mnemosyne  on  09/22  at  09:28 PM

PortlyDyke...

The details are besides the point.  I read your post before replying as well.  At what point do you actually realize that you were attempting to tell other people about how they should feel, not against pertinent real-time events, but relative to some meta-narrative of feelings about loss that had tenuous fuck all to do with the lede of your own post, as well as betrayed an utter lack of awareness of what’s really going on.

like a really offensive Cary Tennis.

Let’s put it another way, you were being like one of those white people who tell black people that they should be grateful that their ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved, because else they would still be living in Africa and in deprived situations.  You know, tell people with real grieviences how they should feel, and make it fit within your permitted paradygme.

Comment #90: shah8  on  09/22  at  09:45 PM

”Reagan was first elected when I was 11, so you’re probably right.  My generation has never had any illusions that we would be able to easily get high-paying jobs or long-term jobs.  Heck, we were lucky to graduate from college less than $20,000 in debt.
Nobody wants to hear about “Generation X” anymore (partly because it was a really stupid name and a really self-indulgent book) but it’s true that we got screwed by being born at the wrong time.  The generation after us will be the one that fills in the employment gaps that the Baby Boomers leave behind and we’ll still be struggling to find stinkin’ administrative jobs to pay the bills. “

Wow, I only got 10 years on you and I sound like an old man pining for a mythical golden age of heroes

Shows you how quick the evil bastards can really turn things to shit

But its important to know that it wasn’t always like this.  The current state of affairs was not inevitable, its not “just natural way the world works”, and we didn’t get here because of mighty impersonal economic forces

We got here because we were intentionally steered here by political decisions that were made by people who benefit from this state of affairs

Comment #91: jefft452  on  09/22  at  09:55 PM

Is it just me, or is Shakesville slowly going the way of No Quarter—turning into what is functionally a Republican site, under cover of “radical feminism!!!1!!1!” ?

It’s just you.

Comment #92: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  09:56 PM

“Let’s put it another way, you were being like one of those white people who tell black people that they should be grateful that their ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved, because else they would still be living in Africa and in deprived situations.”

Really?  Because the only time I used that word “should” was when I said that I thought the bailed-out moguls “should” have to undergo credit-counseling that was televised on C-Span.

And no, it’s not like I’m a white person telling a black person something.  I’m a person who happens to be a very deep risk in the current financial situation—self-employed, with no health insurance, no savings, no home that I own, and significant debt—my business has dried up over the last six months, because people don’t have money to spend.  I made $15G last year.  I’m about to give notice because I can’t make rent by the 30th, and my last month’s rent is pre-paid.  So, um, no.

My leded suggested checking your perspective, and that’s what my post was about.

Comment #93: PortlyDyke  on  09/22  at  09:56 PM

”The mansions and yachts are treated with preservatives that would probably spoil the marshmellows “

Does anybody actually eat toasted marshmallows?  I remember doing them as a little kid and ending up with a charred, ash covered sticky mess and handing it to my poor father “Here dad, I made one for you” 

Besides, I was thinking of toasting them over roasted Wall Street millionaire

Comment #94: jefft452  on  09/22  at  10:16 PM

“Besides, I was thinking of toasting them over roasted Wall Street millionaire”

Dessert for something like this?...

Comment #95: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  10:27 PM

I don’t know why, and I suspect no one really does anymore,

Someone might have come along to answer this one already, but if not, here you go:

1.  Haiti is one of the few nations to have achieved freedom via a slave rebellion against a European colonizer, and was, until the 20th century, one of the few post-colonial democracies besides the US.  AKA the people running the place are black, ohnoes!  150 years ago it also would have been seen as significant that the people running the show were the descendants of rebellious and recalcitrant murderous slaves.

2.  Haiti came of age as a sovereign nation around the same time the US did, and in a lot of the same ways the US did (also fought a war for independence, also established a democracy right off the bat, etc).  Because the US wanted to dominate North America, Central America, and the Caribbean, Haiti was seen as a direct threat to US foreign policy interests. 

Luckily we were a lot bigger than them and dominated by white people with strong diplomatic ties to the European powers.  Thus we pwned Haiti and have pretty much never let up.  At this point, though, all I can guess is that we do it out of habit, because over the centuries Haiti has lost any advantages of sovereignty, fighting spirit, democracy, or longevity that it had in the 19th century.

Comment #96: The Opoponax  on  09/22  at  10:28 PM

”Haiti is one of the few nations to have achieved freedom via a slave rebellion against a European colonizer, and was, until the 20th century, one of the few post-colonial democracies besides the US.  AKA the people running the place are black, ohnoes!  150 years ago it also would have been seen as significant that the people running the show were the descendants of rebellious and recalcitrant murderous slaves. “

Ya know, whenever Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings debates crop up, with detractors calling him a rapist and defenders saying he was a product of his time, I always think of his horror at the idea of the Haitian revolution.  This more then anything he did with his slaves puts a lie to his rhetoric.  He may have claimed not to like the idea of slavery, but he sure had a knee-jerk reaction to defend it

Comment #97: jefft452  on  09/22  at  10:48 PM

It’s always fun to tell a progressive who thinks she’s hip to privilege when she needs to check it…

/sarcasm

I read your post *again*.  It didn’t change my opinion of what you wrote.

Although, now I realize, when the crime is an outsized obliviousness, then remonstrating is pointless.

Comment #98: shah8  on  09/22  at  11:08 PM

”You all seem to think I am defending the status quo.  Quite the contrary, I think the government meddling in markets has caused the mess we are in.  I also agree that the human rights listed would be a wonderful thing to devlier to humanity - but in the long term, not the utopian short term where everybody feels good for 2 years and the, we have a civil war because bread costs a wheelbarrow full of money.  Economic systems have to be built to sustain a country - not out of a sense of guilt or good intentions.  No system can guarantee economic equality and sustainability.  That’s the facts.“

So if 30 years of the New Deal = unprecedented prosperity and 30 years of the Reagan Revolution = declining standard of living and a return of bank failures (Christ, when I grew up bank failures were found only in history books, like the Black Plague or Viking raids)

How do you get “government meddling in markets has caused the mess we are in”?

Comment #99: jefft452  on  09/23  at  12:02 AM

As a fellow Gen-Xer: Word, Mnemosyne

PD’s post was about fear and expectations and looking at those dark places in your soul.  People don’t want to hear what she is saying because we aren’t mad at the fat cats for having and losing.

What is with this we shit?  Please do not dare to speak for me.  I am perfectly capable of expressing who I am mad at myself.

We are mad at them because they just blew the entire structure of the American Dream to hell and back.  That everyone could become a fatcat if things just worked out right was aways there and for the last few years was dramatically played out on the front pages.  Any kid with a college education could get a job on Wall Street and being making millions in bonuses, retire early to yachts and country places.  Those expectations were a house of cards and now we have to look at why we bought into those expectations in the first place and what it cost even those who were only on the sides of the feeding frenzy.  Those who bought just that much too big because the markets would only go up.  Those who piled on student loans getting that perfect degree and now are looking at starting over.  The people who borrowed to start a business that is at risk because the customers are now looking at joblessness.

Actually, no.  Since before I graduated high school I knew that all a college education would get me was an entry level position at a job that would not allow me to live independently from my parents without several roommates.  I knew that I had the “privilege” of living in the first generation of Americans to actually do worse than their parents.  But what really sucks is that even with my fancy education I can’t even get a minimum wage job in this economy. Let’s not even mention that said minimum wage jobs won’t even cover the cost of childcare.

You see, my husband and I didn’t buy into the whole bubble mentality and didn’t accumulate a whole bunch of expensive consumer goods or buy a house. And we are still getting fucked as royally as everyone else.

It is all based on what our expectations were then and now we need to look at them again.  At the start of the process is the one thing that she points out that everyone ignores- the fear.  The fear of change and having to look at where we are in a new light.  The fear of having to go back to what you thought that you had escaped.  Fear isn’t a healthy way to live and it is definitely not a progressive way to live.

Maybe these were your expectations, but a good rule of thumb for a progressive is not to generalize from your own experience. In fact, isn’t that often what we mock the fundies and Libertarians for?  It’s the same reason PDs post hit the wrong nerve.  Instead of writing a post in which she discussed how she was coping with her situation (which is very similar to my own in so many ways), she generalized from her experience to suggest that many people just don’t have the right perspective on the situation.  If she had kept it to the personal level, I could have said “You know, you are a bigger person than I because I’m fucking mad as hell at the fatcats.”

Comment #100: history_mom  on  09/23  at  12:12 AM

And can we please stop ragging on Shakesville?  They are not PUMAs and frankly the suggestion is fucking sexist.

One can disagree with a single post by one member of a blog without turning it into some ugly blog war. I have no plans to stop reading PD or anybody else at Shakesville because I usually agree and I am okay with it when I do not.  Shah8, you need to check yourself.

Comment #101: history_mom  on  09/23  at  12:15 AM

I certainly do not, history_mom.  Especially hearing that from someone who’s doing her own share of lashing out.

I’ve had it up to here with the people who feel that they need to be patronizing in order to deal with their own issues or to project a feeling of superiority.  I’ve especially have had it with ignorant people trying to act all knowledgable and shit and project their wishes onto all of us.  The aggravated cluelessness in which PD wraps current events into her meta-narrative about fear, some of which was entirely inappropriate, braces me with mild outrage.  The ending was a farce.

Because of course I’m afraid.  I have reason to be afraid, actually, more so than PD.  I have hearing aids, for example…shall I give ‘em to someone who thinks I’m rich as Midas?  However, that is what I’m most afraid of losing.  I have reason to fear.  That fear has a history and a logic.  It has a past, and it will have a future.  More than that, my continued safety is probably dependent on the damned Wizard of Oz performing one more magic trick and making a successful bailout.  In case people don’t realize this, if whatever bailout that gets passed fails, we will suffer a decrease in our standard of living—the meaning of which is in large part that people will lose their security, of their bodily integrity, of food security, that their possessions (many of which they NEED FOR LIFE) will remain theirs, among others.

Poverty, the genuine article, sucks, and sometimes lethally so.  Many people, of many classes, are about to get thrown into genuine poverty.  The language in PD’s post of how fear is entertwined in everything, and we should just let go of our possessions in some hideous mockery of Buddhism is inappropriate in the current context.  I used the example I used because it was something privileged people do all the time, take something out of context of the flow of people’s lives, history, and ambitions, and tell them how they should be grateful for what they have.

Comment #102: shah8  on  09/23  at  12:52 AM

shah8—you might note that what I suggested that someone might give away is something that has ceased being something that they want, and has become something that they are just “keeping track of”. 

And regardless—I didn’t demand or insist that anyone do this, or suggest that it was somehow “good” or “right” to do it.  You don’t want to?  Don’t.  I take no offense, and think none the worse of you or anyone else who chooses to do what works for them.  You don’t like my post?  Fine.  I can handle that.  Don’t agree with me?  Fine, too. 

If I had said:  “Take those hearing aids out of your ears and give them away!  Someone else needs them more!”, I could understand your complaint.  But I didn’t say that, nor would I have ever said it.

My problem is that my post has been characterized as somehow “scolding” or telling people what they “should” do.  That wasn’t my intent at all.  In reading these and other comments, I realize now that I probably would have served my intent better if I had stuck to “I” language (which is what I usually do).  Ironically, when I was writing this post, I considered that voice, but chose a different one because I didn’t want to be perceived as “whining” about my personal situation.  So, I have learned today.

I’m not (and have never considered myself to be) perfect.  I will miss the mark sometimes.  When I do, I will attempt to learn.

Comment #103: PortlyDyke  on  09/23  at  01:36 AM

I know that you were not talking about my hearing aids.  I know you were talking about things that don’t bring you benefits.  I can, in fact, read.  Everyone here, and at Shakesville, can read.  People can also do a neat trick called inferring.  Some call it “reading between the lines”.

Perhaps this will do you some good.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/05/psa-2/

I understand that it is talking primarily about disabilities, but the discussion and the advice is quite supremely relevant to you. 

Also, I’d suggest that you don’t ask the equivalence of having the audience to have pity for the child who kills his parents and makes an ado about being an orphan.

Comment #104: shah8  on  09/23  at  02:21 AM

From what I’ve read of right-wing types, the current economic straits can have a positive side for them. In such situations people go looking for scapegoats and blame or vent on outsiders like immigrants, sexual deviants and all the rest who prevail upon the ‘normal’ population for special rights and considerations. People who are more liberal usually turn to the right that bit more. I’ve known certain people who look forward with glee to when things get bad just to see all those homos and feminists get their comeuppance.
At least PortlyDyke’s post falls into the category of trying to look on the bright side.
Ultimately though, it is poor consolation.

Comment #105: Childe O' Grace  on  09/23  at  02:35 AM

Your house is not an investment. It’s a place you live. If it goes up in monetary value or down in value doesn’t matter that much. It’s importance is the roof and the walls, the protection from the elements, not in how much you can sell it for.


Well yeah, and if it’s made of ginger bread and candy canes, all the better. This is a childish statement.

Comment #106: Dan  on  09/23  at  08:25 AM

Well yeah, and if it’s made of ginger bread and candy canes, all the better. This is a childish statement.

If more people had adhered to this “childish” sentiment, many of the troubles we’re having today could have been averted. Your attitude isn’t so much childish as it is adolescent: it reflects a partial understanding that is stated with the assurance only possible from someone who doesn’t actually know what he’s talking about.

Comment #107: Tyro  on  09/23  at  09:55 AM

“How do you get “government meddling in markets has caused the mess we are in”?”

If the government let Chrysler fail, hedge funds fail, Bear Sterns fail then the risk that institutional investors would accept would be lower and the market would regulate itself into more rational investment strategies because there would be a real chance of loss.  When the government covers the behinds of the risk takers, all investors start accepting heavier risk as a norm and the American tax payer bails out the rich guys while the pension fund and 401ks take it in the shorts.

Comment #108: Dr T  on  09/23  at  10:51 AM

Hedge funds have been failing all over the place. The proliferation of hedge funds only occurred in the first place because regulators became lazy and did not crack down on the proliferation of funds designed specifically for the purpose of making an end-run around regulations.

We’ve had a steady 25 years of a push towards deregulation of the banking industry—this was supposed to be the “mature” thing to do, and it’s what put us in the position we are in today.

To echo Bernie Sanders, regulation is the acknowledgement that if something is “too big to fail,” then it’s “too big to exist,” and regulation is necessary to prevent things from getting to that point.

Comment #109: Tyro  on  09/23  at  11:17 AM

After the government bailed out Long Term Capital Management money flowed into hedge funds like there was no tomorrow.  Money that would never have gone there before - institutional investor money chasing risk it would have never chased before - putting everyday working people’s retirement funds in serious jeopardy.  Yes, hedge funds are failing now, taking down regular investors, because the government didn’t let early hedge funds that were mainly high income individual investors chasing a pipe dream fail.  I’m not arguing against regulation.  My comment was about meddling.  Meddling is determining market outcomes instead of letting the market do it.

Comment #110: Dr T  on  09/23  at  12:33 PM

Dr T, the government didn’t “bail out” LTCM. LTCM evaporated into nothing at no cost to the taxpayer. In that case, the fed did what it was designed to do: coordinate a “soft landing” with all of the other private players at LTCM’s expense (and, to a degree, the expense of the other players and many other hedge funds).

The flourishing of hedge funds occurred because hedge funds were a means of making an end-run around generations of Depression-era regulations. What the government should have done was to take an active role in updating their regulations to deal with hedge funds. But then you’d whine that this was “meddling.”

Comment #111: Tyro  on  09/23  at  12:48 PM

”If the government let Chrysler fail, hedge funds fail, Bear Sterns fail then the risk that institutional investors would accept would be lower and the market would regulate itself into more rational investment strategies because there would be a real chance of loss.  When the government covers the behinds of the risk takers, all investors start accepting heavier risk as a norm and the American tax payer bails out the rich guys while the pension fund and 401ks take it in the shorts.”

We don’t have to deal with if’s and buts
We have real live evidence to look at
Pre-1936 - no regulation, courts would strike down minimum wage laws, child labor laws etc as unconstutional even if you could get them passed —-  Life is like is like your average conservative – nasty, brutish and short

1936-1976 – “alphabet soup”, meddle with the free market? Sure why not —— life gets steadily better and the future is so bright ya gotta where shades

1976-now – De-regulate the airlines!, oops we gotta bail them out,
De-regulate the S&L;’s!, oh, you don’t mind cleaning up the mess for us? Tanks
De-regulate the health insurance industry!, well so what if your HMO says wont pay and you go broke or go without treatment, aren’t you glad a government bureaucrat isnt looking over you shoulder
Weaken labor laws! – what? Stocking shelves at Wallmart doesn’t give you the life your dad who worked at GM had? Shut up and be grateful we let you have even that

I know, I know
Road to Serfdom and all that, I don’t understand econ 101, the Austrian school says that empirical evidence doesn’t prove anything because we 36-76 might have been even better if we stayed the course…….Just like I don’t know for sure that my headache wouldn’t be even worse if I wasn’t bashing it against a brick wall

Comment #112: jefft452  on  09/23  at  09:29 PM

When the government covers the behinds of the risk takers, all investors start accepting heavier risk as a norm and the American tax payer bails out the rich guys while the pension fund and 401ks take it in the shorts.

And yet which party has spent 12 years in Congress and 8 years in the White House making sure that risk was minimized for their big donors and the fallout was socialized to the taxpayers?  It’s the Savings & Loan scandal all over again.

It’s funny how conservatives have been screaming for years that we have to get rid of the post-1929 Crash regulations because they stifle business, and as soon as they do .... the whole goddamn thing collapses again.  You’d almost think those regulations had done some good when it came to stabilizing the markets, wouldn’t you?

Comment #113: Mnemosyne  on  09/23  at  11:55 PM

“It’s funny how conservatives have been screaming for years that we have to get rid of the post-1929 Crash regulations because they stifle business, and as soon as they do .... the whole goddamn thing collapses again.  You’d almost think those regulations had done some good when it came to stabilizing the markets, wouldn’t you?”

Mnemosyne, how can you hate America SO much? 

Besides, the new talking point is The Libruls Done It!  I don’t know where they got the time, since The Libruls started the war with Iraq, and The Libruls tortured people, and The Libruls spied on people, and they even shot that friend of Dick Cheney’s in the face.  But you know how they are…

smile

Comment #114: MikeEss  on  09/24  at  12:11 AM
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