Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Q of the day: remakes - the good, the bad, the sucktastic Previous entry: Concerned Women for America’s golden oldie stereotype: girls + sports = LESBIANS!

Epic Douchebaggery

MoviesSex

You can just tell it’s the end of summer, because the pointless douchebaggery to real article ratio has gotten really out of control.  But this (via) may really deserve a special award for mega-douchebaggery of levels beyond what our primitive instruments can measure.  When it was first coming out, I wrote some posts making fun of the trailer for (500) Days of Summer, and I actually let people make me feel bad about not giving the movie a chance.  Perhaps, I thought, these folks are right and this movie doesn’t fall somewhere on the epic fail to misogynist trash scale.  But no one told me that it’s misogynist trash from the opening credits:

The opening credits for my film include the standard legal disclaimer that ‘any resemblance to people living or dead is purely coincidental’. But then it adds: ‘Especially you, Jenny Beckman. Bitch.’

Yes, the article is by screenwriter Scott Neustadter, and from the very beginning, both this article and his movie engage in one of the classic paradoxes of this sort of misogyny: To call someone a “bitch” for dumping you is to imply that she was wrong and mean-spirited to do so, but the fact that you wield the word “bitch” to describe women who believe they own their own selves is evidence that she was actually a wise woman for getting rid of your sorry ass.  It’s not exactly Schrödinger’s cat, but it’s nonetheless a puzzle.  By making the case that his ex-girlfriend had no right to dump him, Neustadter actually manages to make the case that all women should probably steer clear, and that includes his current girlfriend.  Let’s investigate.

I was on the rebound from a relationship that had ended months before in New York, where I had been working for a film company.

I had been desolate. You know the drill. Sleepless nights, long days watching Swedish movies and listening to The Smiths on a constant loop.

But when I met this girl in London, my depression lifted, my heart filled with love again and I felt that this could only be the result of divine intervention.

From the beginning, we see his problems, starting with the unbelievably misplaced pretentiousness of his Smiths obsession.  The Smiths are a great band—-one of the all-time best—-but that tends to put them in the pantheon of the people’s music, not something that douchebags should have a right to wear, along with Swedish movies, as evidence of their unique snowflake-ness.  But worse—-and as a big time music fan, this is painful for me to say—-is the way that he holds women responsible for his happiness.  This sets up the objectification and anger he has that some woman believes she has a right to say no to a relationship with him.  Can’t she see that she’s here on earth to keep him from torturing the rest of the world with the pity parties he throws himself when he’s not being validated by a woman’s attention?

Hey, I’m not a cynical person.  I’m aware of how love can put a bounce in your step, and how being rejected or (gasp!) having to break up with someone can leave one wallowing in sadness.  The newly single have every right to lay around and weep for awhile, and listen to whatever pitiful music that they want.  (I like overtly painful country western, myself.)  But then you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and realize the only person responsible for your happiness is you.  Ironically, the people who find love the most easily seem to be the ones who are the most content with themselves.  The grasping and neediness that Neustadter displays here is exactly the sort of thing that sends most sensible potential love interests fleeing, which is sensible.  A person who needs you to complete them is going to act entitled and downright vampiric, like I do when I’m really hungry and someone’s stalling my access to food. Or my cat does when she decides if I don’t wake up right now, she might die.


This is why Jenny’s behavior is not as puzzling to me as it is to him.

We began chatting and found that we shared the same taste in books and music. That had to mean something, right?.....

We -  OK, she -  decided soon after that to not use labels. ‘Boyfriend/girlfriend,’ there would be none of that. Labels equalled possession and this girl was her own woman. And so I went with it. What did I care what we called ourselves as long as she kept calling?

I thought it was modern, cultured -  anything other than what it actually was: uncertainty, confusion, detachment. It was a roller coaster. Some days were perfect -  I have beautiful memories of us drinking wine, watching bands and sneaking kisses in the elevator at the LSE.

While other days -  lots of days -  were unforgettably awful. Eventually, she told me what I had always known deep in my heart: that this thing, whatever it was, simply wasn’t going to work for either of us.

Doesn’t seem so hard to figure out what was going on: Jenny no doubt enjoyed a lot of his personality, and they shared the same tastes, and they had fun.  But she perceived what is blatantly obvious, which is that he’s dopey, possessive, and entitled, and so she was rightfully scared of committing to him and giving him more cause to feel a sense of ownership over her.  In fact, it appears she said as much, albeit obliquely, with the rejection of labels.  Meanwhile, the fact that the whole “OMG you also like The Smiths?” thing was inspired by a Brit makes me want laugh even harder at the douchebaggery.  It’s like saying, “OMG, you like soccer, too?!”  It really calls into question whether this woman had any relationship to the image he had of her. 

Bored with moping, my friend Michael H. Weber and I decided to channel those energies into something of value.

Therapy?

A screenplay.

FAIL.

Except not, of course, because this sort of pity party about how it’s unfair that women have all these rights to say no.  A pity party over the injustice of these modern women who think they have a right to put themselves before any random dude who lays claim by falling in love—-that’s Hollywood gold.  So bully for him.  He was able to channel his douchebaggery into a major payday.  Instead of resting on that, though, he has to take one more swipe at the woman who wisely looked at him and said, “I’ll pass.”

After writing the screenplay, I met up with Jenny for the first and only time since we broke up. We had dinner in Venice Beach, California. We talked about life, friends, everything -  but not about what had happened between us.

I gave her the script to read on the flight back to London. Some time later she wrote me a letter. She loved the story, she said. It had surprised and moved her because she really related to Tom. Yes, incredibly, Jenny hadn’t recognised herself as Summer at all.

Probably because Jenny Beckman is not actually the monster you make her out to be.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:27 PM • (156) Comments

Young princes must have everything they desire, non?

Comment #1: digitusmedius  on  08/30  at  02:44 PM

I think I was pretty young—fourteen—when I had the insight that the guy I had a crush on for all three years of junior high was actually a fictional person. There was a real person I had hung my fantasy on, but he was blithely unaware of it, and one day I realised that the guy in my head was just that—the guy in my head, and the aspects of his creation said more about me than it did about the real person. I was projecting what I wanted onto somebody else. (Good thing this was just a junior high crush, because man, the confusion that would have ensued if we ever actually had a conversation.)

So it is with Scott Neustadter and his fictional Summer. Jenny wouldn’t recognise herself as Summer, because she ISN’T Summer. (Not that I’ve seen the movie, but based on the article, you quote.) Summer probably says more about Scott than she does about the woman he based her on.

Also, I don’t know what the fallacy is for basing True Love(tm) on shared interests, but I went through that with my first serious boyfriend. We liked the same music and comics and books, so natch, everything was perfect. Until it wasn’t. Because he didn’t like ALL of my music and had to make sure that I didn’t enjoy the stuff he didn’t….because our relationship was founded on shared likes, so must squish the likes that don’t match. Shared principles and shared communication strategies work better than basing a relationship off the fact that you both like The Tick. Or the Smiths. Or whatever.

Comment #2: PixelFish  on  08/30  at  02:48 PM

On Jezebel, it was mentioned that this douche is in a new relationship of several years’ standing. How awful must it be for the new girlfriend? Sure, she might have validation of “being the one to pick up the pieces and make him whole,” but on some level, it must be soul crushing that he still hasn’t let go of his hurt and anger by being dumped by one Jenny Beckman. How must it feel to go and see his movie and see the ex’s name up on the screen, followed by “bitch”? How must it feel to read these thousand word articles on how some woman in London hurt the artist’s soul by not being a real life Manic Pixie Dream Girl?

And maybe in the day-to-day she can put it aside and he hasn’t actually mentioned The Ex’s name in months, and maybe the screenplay had already been written before they met, and maybe they had a long discussion about how they have a strong relationship, and New Girl is better than The Ex by far, but he has to make it funny, so he threw that bitch into the opening credits, and well, there’s going to have to be publicity about the creation of his art, so he’s going to have to tell the story, but at the end of the day, let’s crack open a bottle of wine and talk about other things; that he’s not actually bitter, it’s just an act put on for the media.

But I can’t believe this scenario would be true. The “bitch” in the credits negates the idea of this being in good fun, and the blabbing to the British tabloids about his pain and his broken heart and spreading the name of woman dared reject him in print shows a more vindictive nature. A poster on Jezebel mentioned going to a wedding where the groom referenced his cheating whore of an ex in his vows—and this is precisely how Scott Neustadter comes off. Petulant, self-obsessed and creepy.

I hope his girlfriend recognizes this, makes a logical, unemotional assessment of the possibility of positive outcomes of a relationship with this guy, and runs.

Comment #3: Ticky  on  08/30  at  03:01 PM

I like the Cure.  Aren’t I so special for liking them?  Praise my taste in music.  Praise it now!

When I read Amanda’s first piece on this movie, I had assumed that the reference to the Smiths was meant to appeal to the audience.  It’s not up to music-snob snuff, but it’s just indie enough to work for the movie.

It reminds me of the movie Swimming with Sharks, which has an appalling reference to movie directors.  In a conversation about which director should be chosen to direct a certain movie, a character brings up Robert Altman, Penny Marshall (whom he describes as “young” and “hip”), and David Lean (who was dead by then).  It made me wonder if George Huang, the writer/director, really knows jack about movies or if he was just pandering to/insulting the audience.

Comment #4: keshmeshi  on  08/30  at  03:06 PM

the groom referenced his cheating whore of an ex in his vows

Unfortunately I think there are some women who eat this crap up.  They think that they would never do something like that and how dare that bitch hurt him so.  If this is the case with Neustadter’s current girlfriend, I say they deserve each other.

Comment #5: keshmeshi  on  08/30  at  03:09 PM

Wow. Just Wow.

This isn’t just epic, this is unbelievable.

This isn’t true..right? It can’t be. There’s no way somebody would put something like that at the beginning of the movie. How did it get past the studio? How did this mess get greenlighted in the first place? Isn’t this going to be a commercial disaster? A movie for douches marketed as a romance?

The fail is so deep here were going to need nuclear explosives to clear it up.

Comment #6: Karmakin  on  08/30  at  03:09 PM

It had surprised and moved her because she really related to Tom. Yes, incredibly, Jenny hadn’t recognised herself as Summer at all.

Incredibly, she relates to the viewpoint character because she’s actually a person with her own life and needs and wants like a man, and isn’t a succubus put on earth to hurt men’s feelings? Maybe that “incredibly” is supposed to be an ironic awakening to his own self-centered blindness. Or maybe I’m being too generous. Maybe it’s just “incredible” how cruelly clueless this woman is, that she doesn’t recognize herself as that monster.

Comment #7: junk science  on  08/30  at  03:14 PM

I think we’re selling “Jenny” a bit short.  She could very well have realized what the douchebag was up to and wouldn’t give him the satisfaction of letting him know.  Telling him she related to “Tom” was a brilliant stroke.  The real message to Mr. Douchebag, which he, being a douchebag, missed is that he wasn’t “Tom.”  IOW, “fuck you, douchebag.”

Comment #8: digitusmedius  on  08/30  at  03:22 PM

So he’s happy that his evil ex-girlfriend felt a deep connection to the character who escapes a traumatic breakup with a complete evil jerk and then finds somebody who gets them and makes them feel better about themselves?

And he thinks he spotted the correct irony of the situation?

Wow, he’s dumb.

Comment #9: Cerberus  on  08/30  at  03:23 PM

Digitusmedius: I like your interpretation too. smile

Comment #10: PixelFish  on  08/30  at  03:24 PM

I doubt Jenny had any doubts about dumping this douche nozzle (sp?) but if she did I imagine this movie relieved her of it.

Comment #11: shakahi  on  08/30  at  03:26 PM

I saw the movie (a friend suggested it, I said, “okay”) and OH, MY GOD, even on the screen their is absolutely no insight as to who “Summer” really is at all. Besides all the points you made in your post, which are spot on, I’d like to add the scene in a bar in which a douchy-business suit hits on Summer as she’s with the man-boy, she politely refuses his drink offer, business-dude keeps pushing, she is able to rebuff again, indicating that’s she’s with someone maybe the third rebuff, primarily to soothe man-boy’s feelings, business dude laughs at the idea of pretty-Summer girl with man-boy and then he (man-boy) punches business dude, and business dude proceeds too kick man-boy’s ass. In the movie, Summer is rightfully upset that man-boy takes an unpleasant situation that she was handling well enough herself and escalates it into violence, but its shot, written such that SHE should be sooooo thankful that man-boy does the old-fashion bar fight in her defense. So, she’s in the wrong on multiple accounts according to man-boy and director Patriarchy rocks when its alt-geeks “defending” their women, blah blah blah, yet it totally illustrates how this concept of Summer as a tabla-rasa on which to write out man-boy’s fantasy of relationships, his “destiny makes you mine” crap is really just old fashion patriarchy with a hipster soundtrack.

There was also multiple “skank” and “cold-bitch” references to Summer at the beginning when man-boy wanted to ask her out, but was too afraid to or she literally came into the office a little more cheerfully than usual one day and man-boy assumes she was out having sex the night before, hence she’s a skank and not worth his obsessive attention. He was so misogynistic and the one friend who had been in a relationship for several years wasn’t worth listening to because only dating one woman seriously made him whipped and the other friend who had never had a girlfriend was equally dismissed (even though he was a bit of a sad sack, he at least said: “ask her out”). So, only man-boy, special snowflake knew what it was like to be in love, date, relate to women, etc. Oh, and one more thing, since they needed to have at least one female voice, they picked his 11 year old sister to be that voice—which had both the magical realism effect of children wise beyond their years and having a little girl say “don’t be a pussy” which of course is “funny” because “pussy” is supposed to mean “little girl” in man-boy talk. It was gross that she was literally the only female voice in the whole film, beyond the very few Summer-words she gets, but which do not serve to make her a full character by any means.

Comment #12: Thealogian  on  08/30  at  03:35 PM

Just think, she could have married him and watched him write screenplays about how the women in his life were no-fun-niks, just like Jude Apatow.

Comment #13: PixelFish  on  08/30  at  03:36 PM

o call someone a “bitch” for dumping you is to imply that she was wrong and mean-spirited to do so, but the fact that you wield the word “bitch” to describe women who believe they own their own selves is evidence that she was actually a wise woman for getting rid of your sorry ass.  It’s not exactly Schrödinger’s cat, but it’s nonetheless a puzzle.

:-p Not really that much of a puzzle.  He broke up with his girlfriend.  He felt hurt and angry.  And so he lashed out.  You’re setting a really low bar for misogyny if you’re not allowed to be angry after a break up.  Not everyone is quite so zen.

Honestly, I’d be a little horrified if the guy didn’t feel anything after dating a girl for months and then going through a prolonged, painful breakup.  The guy who can date and dump/get dumped without any emotional investment would - I imagine - be the one you want to worry about, as he’s showing a few symptoms of being a freak’n sociopath.

Comment #14: Zifnab25  on  08/30  at  03:44 PM

I wonder if the combination of his article and mentioning her by name in the credits is enough for her to get a motherfuckin’ movie check from his sorry ass? That would be sweet.

Comment #15: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/30  at  03:47 PM

The real message to Mr. Douchebag, which he, being a douchebag, missed is that he wasn’t “Tom.” IOW, “fuck you, douchebag.”

You’re right, that does seem more likely.

Comment #16: shakahi  on  08/30  at  03:51 PM

He broke up with his girlfriend.  He felt hurt and angry.  And so he lashed out.

There’s a difference between being hurt after a breakup and lashing out publicly about how demonic your ex is for having the temerity not to want you, especially when it’s always along the same gender lines. Even someone in the throes of breakup pain can realize how self-absorbed they’re being, albeit appropriately, and they can also look outside themselves and realize that their ex isn’t a horrible monster, just a person doing what they thought was best. There’s a time and a place for wallowing in self-pity, and eventually you are behaving unhealthily if you refuse to get the hell over it and make a huge hairy public airing of it. That this behavior is societally sanctioned for men who get their hearts broken by women doesn’t make it healthy.

Comment #17: junk science  on  08/30  at  04:00 PM

Zifnab:

You’re setting a really low bar for misogyny if you’re not allowed to be angry after a break up. Not everyone is quite so zen.

Dude. It’s not just some run-of-the-mill, normal-person post-breakup venting. He wrote a fucking movie about it.

Comment #18: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/30  at  04:06 PM

Unfortunately I think there are some women who eat this crap up.  They think that they would never do something like that and how dare that bitch hurt him so.  If this is the case with Neustadter’s current girlfriend, I say they deserve each other.
Comment #5: keshmeshi on 08/30 at 02:09 PM

Those are usually the same women who bash other women in order to be better liked by men.

Comment #19: pitbullgirl65  on  08/30  at  04:06 PM

Sure, you are hurt and angry after a break up. I told a guy I was dating (after I found out he was ENGAGED to someone else the whole time) that I hoped he got hit by a bus. But that was 7 years ago. I don’t give a rats ass what he’s up to now. When is this douchebag going to let it go? How self absorbed/entitled do you have to be to think it’s okay to publicly call someone a bitch years after your relationship ended?

I didn’t see this movie because the trailer looked like an exercise in “been there—seen that”. (And I figured it had to be full of Indie rock music though they try to throw you off in the trailer by using the ridiculously mainstream Hall and Oates song “You make my dreams”.) So thank you for sparing me from wasting ten bucks and two hours of my life.

I was Summer for years. I lost count of the number of times I heard a disappointed, “Really? You like that?” about my taste in music, movies, sports teams, etc. because I wasn’t even attempting to be the person some man wanted me to be. I’m just lucky I never ran into this guy because he probably would have called me something unprintable.

Comment #20: DC Fem  on  08/30  at  04:08 PM

That’s just… wow.
I’m kind of glad I avoided the film now.

As for the whole “you can be angry in a break up”, Zinfab, I don’t think anyone’s arguing against that.  But putting that in front of your movie? That’s just dickish.

Also, even as he describes the breakup as being horrible, it seems pretty clear she kept a certain distance, didn’t commit, and tried to play fair with him. It’s not like she cheated on him, lied to him, strung him along or married him and then stole his money or whatever. (Trying for a solid MRA gripe here.)

Ultimately, people have the right to break up with you and you have the right to be hurt. You also have the right to be mad if they treat you badly while breaking up with you. But it really seems she didn’t do any of that.

Comment #21: LC  on  08/30  at  04:09 PM

The whole point of the movie is that Summer tells him along she does not want a relationship and to not expect anything from her. It’s not the story of a love that went wrong, they make it clear that it’s the (very typical) story of a man who projected his fantasy woman onto a real woman, ignored what she was telling him, and then sank into a quagmire of bitterness and self-pity after she left him. So it’s not just that Summer did her own thing, it’s that Tom completely dismissed her reality. I actually appreciated that the movie made that clear, because all too often they stop at the “bitch broke my heart” bitterness.

However… I hated the role of the wise little girl and I still suspect that “Jenny Beckman” is a fictional conceit. He’s getting lots of piblicity mileage out of it, after all. The movie could have strengthened Summer’s character so that the audience realized how one-dimensional Tom’s view of her was. And after reading that article, I suspect that the original screenplay was just Poor Victimized Tom, and that the studio or someone recommended the change of adding actual insight and self-awareness to the end.

Comment #22: Veronica  on  08/30  at  04:15 PM

Because he didn’t like ALL of my music and had to make sure that I didn’t enjoy the stuff he didn’t….because our relationship was founded on shared likes, so must squish the likes that don’t match.

A little OT, but Peter Shapiro noted in “Turn The Beat Around” that while men dominated the DJ scene at strictly disco clubs, in the death disco/underground/punk funk scene, women had a major foothold.  His theory was that young men and young women tend to approach music differently—-for young men, there’s way more pressure to be tribal and snobbish about it, so cross-pollinating is harder, but young women are more likely to have a diverse collection. Of course, by no means is this an essentialist statement.  You also see the young men who dominated hip-hop in the early days, and they had very diverse tastes in music, because being a DJ rewarded finding the freshest, most unusual records.  Which is why Kraftwerk became so well-loved in the Bronx in the 70s.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  04:18 PM

This isn’t true..right? It can’t be. There’s no way somebody would put something like that at the beginning of the movie. How did it get past the studio?

Because it’s a Joke. And anyone who points out that’s creepy doesn’t have a sense of humor.  I do believe that’s the excuse. 

In reality, it’s because someone saw the Apatow movies and realized they could make rom coms that appeal to male audiences, and figured the easy way to do this is wallow in even more miserable sexism that rom coms exhibited before.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  04:22 PM

But no one told me that it’s misogynist trash from the opening credits:

The opening credits for my film include the standard legal disclaimer that ‘any resemblance to people living or dead is purely coincidental’. But then it adds: ‘Especially you, Jenny Beckman. Bitch.’

Yes, the article is by screenwriter Scott Neustadter, and from the very beginning, both this article and his movie engage in one of the classic paradoxes of this sort of misogyny: To call someone a “bitch” for dumping you is to imply that she was wrong and mean-spirited to do so, but the fact that you wield the word “bitch” to describe women who believe they own their own selves is evidence that she was actually a wise woman for getting rid of your sorry ass…  By making the case that his ex-girlfriend had no right to dump him

The real hero of the movie is Summer. The movie exposes the flaws of the clueless asshole from the beginning. Summer made it very clear: she wasn’t going to be his girlfriend; they were going to hang out as long as they both thought it was a good idea, etc. He was the idiot who figuratively stuck his fingers in his ears and said “La la la la la I’m not listening.” When she found a guy of marriage quality, she got engaged. I thought it was pretty good.

Comment #25: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  04:24 PM

Honestly, I’d be a little horrified if the guy didn’t feel anything after dating a girl for months and then going through a prolonged, painful breakup.

Boy, your reading comprehension is insanely low.  Insanely.  Maybe it’s time to take an SAT prep course? I said, be sad. But calling someone a “bitch” because she decided she didn’t hate herself enough to date a vampire?  That’s sexist.  It’s based in the belief that women are put on earth to serve men.  It’s ugly when women do it to men, but nobody gives grasping, needy, crazy hateful women screenwriting deals.  They just call them crazy.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  04:28 PM

pitbullgirl,

Those are usually the same women who bash other women in order to be better liked by men.

In a comment thread on Pandagon someone suggested the term “sisterfucker.” I feel a little guilty about liking that term so much. I just think it gives an instant, detailed, easily recognizable image.

Comment #27: shakahi  on  08/30  at  04:30 PM

But calling someone a “bitch” because she decided she didn’t hate herself enough to date a vampire?  That’s sexist.  It’s based in the belief that women are put on earth to serve men. It’s ugly when women do it to men, but nobody gives grasping, needy, crazy hateful women screenwriting deals.  They just call them crazy.

I think it’s based on the belief that he’s mad at her for dumping him.

That said, if you’re pissed he got a screenplay out of it, I at least feel your pain there.

Comment #28: Zifnab25  on  08/30  at  04:37 PM

I think it’s based on the belief that he’s mad at her for dumping him.

As Veronica pointed out, the guy is mad at her for not living up to his fantasy, for breaking a pact that she specifically did not make. I figured he was a species of NiceGuy(tm) with a raging sense of entitlement. The scene in the bar underlined how he thought of her as a possession, not a person.

Now I wonder if the screenwriter realizes how big a goofball he appears to be in his movie.

Comment #29: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  04:55 PM

Endless quality scripts & stories that languish in Limbo for one reason or another - and this moron actually gets his movie made & distributed.

Hate.

Comment #30: MHF  on  08/30  at  05:13 PM

What a creepy douchecornet. Shit like this makes me glad that I haven’t seen a Hollywood movie in decades.

Comment #31: PhysioProf  on  08/30  at  05:19 PM

I think it’s based on the belief that he’s mad at her for dumping him.

Zifnab, do you not get that it’s normal to be upset right after a break-up, but beyond bugnuts insane to still hold a grudge years later?  And that it’s equally unhinged to write movies and articles about it years later still obviously harboring hard feelings? 

If you’re still upset about a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship that is over after more than a year (I would say six months, but I’ll be generous), then you need serious therapy.

Comment #32: Eileen  on  08/30  at  05:26 PM

It’s scary when needy people blame others for not willinglly becoming slaves to their needs. Indeed, what a douchebag.

I’ve seen the gender-converse of this many times, where apparently the guy gets damned for having a “fear of committment problem” by a woman who is needy and emotionally incomplete, and not the kind of person that any sane person would commit to. Quite wisely, the guys want to keep it light and maintain a safe distance, as Jenny Beckman did with Doucheboy. Smart move.

Look, if you don’t have your shit together, then it’s your own fault nobody wants to throw themselves at you, or marry you, or use “labels”, or whatever. Sheesh.

Comment #33: goatchowder  on  08/30  at  05:27 PM

For me, the crucial part of that Manic Pixie Dream Girl Gone Wrong blather was “she told me what I had always known deep in my heart”.

So he’s angry at her—angry enough to write a whole effing screenplay—for being the one to break off a relationship that he already knows isn’t going to work out.  If she’d just given in to him and asked for a commitment or agreed that he was her boyfriend, he would have been able to dump her and feel the power men are supposed to feel over women, but no. She had to do the emotional work for him in a straightforward and direct way, that evil bitch.

I’m betting the lawyers have cut that line out of the international distribution of the film, because british laws are rather less forgiving of libel and invasion of privacy.

Comment #34: paul  on  08/30  at  05:36 PM

Look, if you don’t have your shit together, then it’s your own fault nobody wants to throw themselves at you, or marry you, or use “labels”, or whatever. Sheesh.

True enough, on both sides.  The mistake happens when the protagonist (male or female) looks at the other person as the amalgamation of things that they want rather than as a whole and independent entity.  Romantic comedies get this wrong all the time.

Comment #35: Eileen  on  08/30  at  05:37 PM

Zifnab, do you not get that it’s normal to be upset right after a break-up, but beyond bugnuts insane to still hold a grudge years later?

It’s also exquisitely unattractive, which means that if you’re the kind of douchenozzle who wants a woman to validate you, you’re going to run them off.  Which is exactly what happened in this case!  Remember, he was being a baby over the last woman who dared defy his right to lay claim and decided to leave him when he met this one, and she was understandably wary of dating a guy that possessive. 

Again, I’ve seen women who believe they’re owed someone’s love and affection, the female version of Nice Guys®.  They just don’t get anywhere near the social sympathy that men do for acting so entitled.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  05:44 PM

I’ve seen the gender-converse of this many times, where apparently the guy gets damned for having a “fear of committment problem” by a woman who is needy and emotionally incomplete, and not the kind of person that any sane person would commit to.

It really is a sad thing, but again, they’re more likely to get labeled as crazy and less likely to get mooning pity for them.  Which is doubly sad, because women receive more messages about how we are incomplete without a man’s validation, and so you have to do much more psychological work giving yourself permission to like yourself when you’re single.  It’s a real catch-22.  Women who like themselves while single are threatening and emasculating in so many cultural messages we get, but if you are grasping and needy, then men are rightfully annoyed. 

That, I think, was why that book “He’s Just Not That Into You” was, while atrociously annoying in many ways, understandable as a relief to many women.  Having permission to say, “Hey, I don’t need to convince you to like me, I can actually like myself without your validation” is, while it seems like a small step to many feminists, still something a lot of women don’t feel they’ve got permission to do.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  05:49 PM

It’s also exquisitely unattractive, which means that if you’re the kind of douchenozzle who wants a woman to validate you, you’re going to run them off.

Thanks Amanda. I wasn’t sure if douchenozzle was one word or two.

Comment #38: shakahi  on  08/30  at  05:53 PM

It really is a sad thing, but again, they’re more likely to get labeled as crazy and less likely to get mooning pity for them.

Which is why I’m curious about that Sandra Bullock movie “Steve.” Not curious enough to see it in the theater though.

Comment #39: shakahi  on  08/30  at  05:58 PM

When I saw the preview for this piece of shit, I rolled my eyes so hard I had to fish them out of my popcorn. Besides the stupidity of thinking that two people happening to like one of the most popular bands of all time is so serendipitous as to indicate True Love, the entire Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope has been played out so thoroughly that I thought even mainstream audiences would be bored of it by now. There is nothing more annoying than these dopey creeps who firmly believe that sharing an appreciation for anything even slightly outside the mainstream is a good basis for a relationship. I see them at bars all the time, peering over the shoulder of tattooed indie chicks as they slip their dollars into the juke box, just waiting for them to select a track from a band they also recognize, and then, they pounce. “Man Man! You like Man Man? No way! I saw them at the Paper Heart and it was AWESOME. Hey, do you like Tom Waits? YOU DO? OH MY GOD!”

Comment #40: Jenny Dreadful  on  08/30  at  06:00 PM

...It’s super aggravating when someone acts surprised that you’ve bothered to develop your own tastes. Oh, isn’t that cute! You also enjoy good movies and good music! Like they just expect you to be a complete moron who’s going to have to be shown the ropes of being cool by the much smarter man.

Comment #41: Jenny Dreadful  on  08/30  at  06:14 PM

Surely, she has got to be getting a royalties check from this dude? How can anyone openly admit to using your identity for a commercial work and not compensate you for it? It’s so crazy that I’m almost leaning towards thinking that the opening titles thing was a throw-away joke that’s taken on a life of its own to the point where he now feels he has to backfill the gap in the story.

Comment #42: MarinaS  on  08/30  at  06:19 PM

The Smiths are a great band—-one of the all-time best—-but that tends to put them in the pantheon of the people’s music, not something that douchebags should have a right to wear, along with Swedish movies, as evidence of their unique snowflake-ness.

So, this guy needs your permission to like a band?

Comment #43: Bitter Scribe  on  08/30  at  06:20 PM

Naw, she’s saying that liking this band does not constitute evidence of special snowflakehood.

Comment #44: PixelFish  on  08/30  at  06:23 PM

Also, can I just say, I’ve always approached anyone who went into raptures over The Smiths with caution, because they are absolutely the epitome of self pity (closely followed by the Cure). It’s born itself out pretty well in my life - guys who cite them as their favourite band tend to have some serious entitlement issues.

Then again, I’ve always had a problem with the kind of indie boys who start conversations with “what’s your favourite band?”. I usually say something like “the Oscar Peterson Trio” or “Jobim”, which gets their excitement levels right up, because they think those are bands so obscure that they haven’t even heard of them, only to have their hopes dashed when I say “no, it’s jazz”. It would appear that in order to qualify for MDPG status, one has to like music which is elitist, but not too elitist… wink

Comment #45: MarinaS  on  08/30  at  06:30 PM

What I like to do, and I know many of you Pandagon-ians do this as well, is to flip the genders in these plots.  In this case, Summer-as-a-male would be a typical dude who is merely commitment-phobic, as teh dudez are wont to be.  Tom-as-a-female would be a too-needy pain in the ass who has failed to grasp that He’s Just Not That Into Her.  Or a psycho stalker bitch.

Comment #46: DonnaDiva  on  08/30  at  06:34 PM

<bloackquote>I’m betting the lawyers have cut that line out of the international distribution of the film, because british laws are rather less forgiving of libel and invasion of privacy.</blockquote>
I was wondering about that too. If that’s her real name it seems like begging to be sued for libel, despite the obviously insincere “no resemblance” disclaimer.

Comment #47: Andrew_F  on  08/30  at  06:37 PM

“Which is why I’m curious about that Sandra Bullock movie “Steve.” Not curious enough to see it in the theater though.”

I was intrigued when it looked like it was going to be a tweaking of movies like There’s Something about Mary.  Now that it’s looking more and more like a romcom version of Fatal Attraction, not so much.

Comment #48: preying mantis  on  08/30  at  06:37 PM

If you’re still upset about a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship that is over after more than a year (I would say six months, but I’ll be generous), then you need serious therapy.

Six months is what I was told to expect as the minimum time it would take to get over my first experience with heartbreak. I’ve also heard to expect it to take half the amount of time the relationship lasted or just as long as the relationship lasted.

It’s just now a week past six months, and I’ve managed to be depressed all through August, so I’m guessing it’ll take more time.

That said, yes, I’m depressed and I still love her, but I’m not angry with her. She didn’t want to hurt me. It’s just hard sometimes because it’s hard to imagine that I’m going to feel this way about someone else.

I recognize that it’s not her fault I’m depressed, that it’s not her fault that I’m having trouble getting over her, but I don’t feel like it’s my fault either. I go out with friends, I read, I do things to avoid wallowing in depression, but my chest still hurts, and I don’t know how to make it stop. And I feel I should be happy again before I try to date again, but—sometimes I think I’d feel better if I met someone else.

I hate the way Hollywood sells love. I hate the fact that I bought into it, but anything you learn is either first hand or from a story. So you try to look for the stories that fit, and because none of them are yours there are number that almost fit and you try to shoehorn yourself into all of them. But it doesn’t help, because you still don’t know what to expect.

Comment #49: BenYitzhak  on  08/30  at  06:41 PM

It’s super aggravating when someone acts surprised that you’ve bothered to develop your own tastes. Oh, isn’t that cute! You also enjoy good movies and good music! Like they just expect you to be a complete moron who’s going to have to be shown the ropes of being cool by the much smarter man.

I’ve actually heard a man say that a woman having good taste in music means that her ex-boyfriend was cool and introduced her to the good stuff.  Which makes you wonder why not just ask out her ex-boyfriend instead? wink

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  06:43 PM

<i.So, this guy needs your permission to like a band? </i>

No.  He just needs to realize they aren’t some minor indie band that no one’s ever heard of.  Where did you get the notion that I said he needs permission?  WTF, that doesn’t even make sense.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  06:45 PM

Six months is what I was told to expect as the minimum time it would take to get over my first experience with heartbreak. I’ve also heard to expect it to take half the amount of time the relationship lasted or just as long as the relationship lasted.

Oh, I’ve heard that, but it’s one of those pat things that people say that, if you think about it, is incredibly fucked up.  And frankly, mean-spirited.  And, I suspect, has its roots in paranoia about sexuality.  My last break-up was a relationship that lasted 4 years.  To suggest that I need to wait 2 years before getting over it and dating again is misanthropic, I’d say.  I lasted maybe a month?  And half that reason was that dating again is hard when you’re out of practice. 

Just because Americans went way too long with the bottle-everything-up mentality doesn’t mean it’s wise to swing completely to the other side and act like every pain is something you must indulge to the fullest extend, and allow it to completely paralyze you.  Why do that to yourself?  A little sucking up is good for the character.  Industriousness helps—-packing, moving, and unpacking after my last break-up did most of the work of getting over it for me.

I feel for you, Ben, but if it’s taking that long to get over someone and get on with your life, that’s not something you should accept as normal.  You need to find a way to get better.  Life is way too short to let a break-up eat you up like that.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  06:52 PM

Where did you get the notion that I said he needs permission?  WTF, that doesn’t even make sense.

You questioned his “right to wear” his liking for this band. I guess that makes sense to you.

Comment #53: Bitter Scribe  on  08/30  at  06:55 PM

Also, Ben, getting over it doesn’t mean your love didn’t count or wasn’t real.  You have lots of love to give, I’m sure.  One woman doesn’t have to be the end all be all.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  06:56 PM

The right to wear the label of special snowflake.  Good lord.  Why would I want fewer people to have good taste in music?

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  06:57 PM

Did you just not read the “as evidence” part?  Maybe that explains the ungenerous interpretation?

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  06:59 PM

Ben, I will say this from experience as something I should have done and didn’t do—you may want to get a little therapy.  I sank into a depression after a breakup that went on for five years because, as it turns out, the problem is that I’m chemically prone to clinical depression, not that I’m a total loser who can’t handle breakups.

It’s something worth looking into, because you don’t want to lose years out of your life like I did because I thought I was stupid for still being so depressed over a breakup and didn’t realize that I was actually ill.

Comment #57: Mnemosyne  on  08/30  at  07:01 PM

I spoke with a counselor for a few months, we stopped in June because she thought that I was doing alright. I’m not a risk to myself or others. I just need time. I’m not continuously depressed. I was doing fairly well for the second half of June and almost all of July. August just started quite badly and didn’t really recover.

It’s just a hard time to move on with my life when I’m kind of in a holding pattern anyway. I’m applying to graduate schools so I have no idea where I’m going to be next fall. I don’t want to get involved in a relationship when I might be moving away.

Comment #58: BenYitzhak  on  08/30  at  07:13 PM

Well, Ben, for the purposes of this conversation what you’ve described sounds like the best you can do for now.  I hope you can get out and have a little fun before you go to graduate school.

If you write a spiteful novel or screenplay about it in five years you’ll have crossed over into Neustadter territory.

———————-

And back on The Smiths…  when I was 18 I thought my love of The Clash made me special.  It did not.

Comment #59: Eileen  on  08/30  at  07:17 PM

Making a change will help.  Sometimes what’s really harder than the break-up is the sense that you’re physically prevented from moving on, that your life is in a holding pattern.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  07:22 PM

douchecornet

For. The. Fucking. Win.

What makes this whole thing so much worse is the validation this douchecornet (my new favorite word prefixed by “douche-”) is getting by this movie making it to the screen.  There are LOTS of guys out there with this type of mentality, and rather than being rebuked for being utterly wrong in their attitude towards women and relationships, they’re being propped up as poor, poor maligned souls who are just really, really, sweet, nice, caring guys, and that meritless victim attitude is being reinforced.

Ack.  Just more evidence that being an overly entitled douchecornet can be highly profitable in our patriarchy.

And no, zif, nobody is saying it’s wrong to feel hurt and upset over a breakup.  Almost everybody does.  But people who milk those feelings into screenplays where they present themselves as poor victims of the evil heartless bitch are pathetic.  The woman didn’t go cheating on him.  She didn’t treat him cruelly.  She didn’t trash his name to everybody in his circle.  She just decided that she didn’t want to be with him.  If he decides that simple act makes her a bitch, well, he’s a douchecornet.

Nobody is entitled to a permanent romantic commitment from another person.  The end.

Comment #61: DTG in STL  on  08/30  at  07:24 PM

From the beginning, we see his problems, starting with the unbelievably misplaced pretentiousness of his Smiths obsession.  The Smiths are a great band—-one of the all-time best—-but that tends to put them in the pantheon of the people’s music, not something that douchebags should have a right to wear, along with Swedish movies, as evidence of their unique snowflake-ness.

Actually, I read his statement as something like, “I was dumped and I went through all those stereotypical experiences that we go through when that happens, you know, like not getting any sleep, listening to stereotypically depressing songs like the Smiths and watching those stereotypically dark Swedish movies.”

Amanda, you’ve obviously had the requisite experiences in getting into a relationship, breaking up, moving on, etc., so I’m not going to accuse you of inexperience or naiveté. You do, however, seem to have a stunning lack of empathy when it comes to people’s relationship angst and dealing with things like rejection and heartbreak. It doesn’t make you a bad person, but it does mean that there exists an area of discussion and shared experience that you really don’t relate to.

If you’re still upset about a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship that is over after more than a year (I would say six months, but I’ll be generous), then you need serious therapy.

Probably so, though not serious therapy, just regular plain-old therapy. Still feeling the reverberations of a heartbreak 6-12 months (or even 2 years) down the road doesn’t make you a headcase. It just means you’re normal. Insofar as therapy helps, it’s not because you have a problem, it’s because it’s not worth suffering that long and it’s healthy to pull yourself out of something like that.

Comment #62: Tyro  on  08/30  at  07:25 PM

when I was 18 I thought my love of The Clash made me special.  It did not.

I’m dating myself, but with me it was the Talking Heads.

Then I got into classical, which is nice because it gets you out of the whole is-the-music-I-like-cool-or-uncool thing. People either respect your taste or think you’re a hopeless nerd, but either way, they leave you alone.

And Amanda, sorry if I misinterpreted you. I have no doubt that this fellow is a card-carrying douchebag, no matter what music he likes or doesn’t like.

Comment #63: Bitter Scribe  on  08/30  at  07:27 PM

Yeah, what a shock, faux-gressive d0000d Zifnab doesn’t get why this movie isn’t OK.

Comment #64: Nobody in Particular  on  08/30  at  07:31 PM

Just because Americans went way too long with the bottle-everything-up mentality doesn’t mean it’s wise to swing completely to the other side and act like every pain is something you must indulge to the fullest extend, and allow it to completely paralyze you.  Why do that to yourself?  A little sucking up is good for the character.  Industriousness helps—-packing, moving, and unpacking after my last break-up did most of the work of getting over it for me.

Maybe I’m reading the last sentence wrong, Amanda, but that sounds a little like “I was able to work it out and move on in about a month. So there must be something wrong with you.”  But maybe I’m just being defensive because I’ve gotten that same advice and it felt dismissive. However I’m not accusing you of being dismissive.
Ben, this will sound trite but it might be helpful to find something that makes you laugh. Whether it’s scatological humor, dark comedy, satire or LOLcats laughter does help your body release endorphins and serotonin. I’m absolutely not saying it’s a silver bullet but if you can find something that makes you laugh it might help get over the hump.

Comment #65: shakahi  on  08/30  at  07:31 PM

You do, however, seem to have a stunning lack of empathy when it comes to people’s relationship angst and dealing with things like rejection and heartbreak.

Sorry if my empathy lies with the women of the world who are scared to death to end a toxic relationship with a douchenozzle for fear that he’ll call her a bitch and use his male privilege to slander her reputation, knowing the world automatically takes a man’s word over a woman’s.  I have plenty of empathy.  Just not for the people who get more than they really deserve, as evidenced by their complete and utter inability to treat women like human beings with a right to their own mental health.

I feel bad for Ben, but I feel that more empathetic response is to not want him to suffer.  There’s nothing shameful in having a bad time.  What is fucked up is that Ben’s been told that he should merely endure his own pain instead of see it as a problem that needs fixing.  He has a right to feel better.  Telling people that they “should” suffer for unbelievably long periods of time after a break-up strikes me as sadistic.  It certainly sends the incorrect message that your love is only real if you’re destroyed when it ends.

There’s nothing whatsoever wrong with choosing yourself.  In fact, it makes you a better lover, because it’s easier to love someone who loves themselves.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  07:40 PM

Sorry if my empathy lies with the women of the world who are scared to death to end a toxic relationship with a douchenozzle for fear that he’ll call her a bitch…

...  or for fear he’ll - you know - stalk her, beat her, or kill her.  Not to bring the room down or anything.

Comment #67: Eileen  on  08/30  at  07:45 PM

And Amanda, sorry if I misinterpreted you. I have no doubt that this fellow is a card-carrying douchebag, no matter what music he likes or doesn’t like.

No worries.  I can see that the clause inserted in the middle of the sentence could make it confusing.  I don’t resent someone moping to The Smiths, though I could have a fun, light-hearted argument about whether or not that’s really the best music for pity parties.  I always though Morrissey’s sense of humor precludes a really good bout of wallowing.  I prefer straightforward wallow music.  Country western doesn’t hold back. 

I’ll admit, the movie thing alarmed me, because for some reason, it reminded me of how Ian Curtis was wallowing in his post-break-up pain by watching Herzog’s movie “Stroszek”, and then he decided to kill himself.  Even as I make jokes about giving yourself some time to wallow and get it out of your system, but I have to admit, there’s a real danger in romanticizing the post-break-up wallow.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  07:47 PM

You do, however, seem to have a stunning lack of empathy when it comes to people’s relationship angst and dealing with things like rejection and heartbreak.

Yeah I’m going to call bullshit on that. Not using teeth-achingly, saccharine-sweet fake sympathy to pander to someone that’s hurting is not a “stunning lack of empathy.”

Comment #69: shakahi  on  08/30  at  07:50 PM

Maybe I’m reading the last sentence wrong, Amanda, but that sounds a little like “I was able to work it out and move on in about a month. So there must be something wrong with you.”

Sorry, I was resorting to be light and funny, which is my default position.  I don’t think that there’s something wrong with an individual who struggles, per se.  My point was that the social message that you are either devastated by a break-up or it wasn’t real is incredibly damaging.  It exacerbates mental health issues, and Mnem pointed out. I was trying, in a jokey way, to suggest that a good balance is to give yourself permission to be an insufferable wallower, but put some limits on it, and if you find that you can’t stay within those limits, give yourself permission to get help. 

Because you deserve to feel good about yourself.  Break-ups are part of life, and the way people are encouraged to feel like utter failures is so, so cruel.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  07:51 PM

I prefer straightforward wallow music.  Country western doesn’t hold back. 

There’s nothing like the blues for that, though. I mean, even the name is depressing.

Blues singers do seem to have an unneccesarily pessimistic view of things. I mean, so you woke up in the mawnin’ and yer baby was gaaawn. Maybe she has a job?

Comment #71: Bitter Scribe  on  08/30  at  07:58 PM

Mind you, I come from this after having a lot of luck pulling out depression with the cognitive behavioral therapy strategies, which are initially off-putting because they conflict with a romantic view of one’s self as a deeply passionate person, and instead suggest that you’re depressed because you get caught in a vicious cycle of negative thinking.  One of the most poisonous things to think is, “Things are never going to get better,” or variations like, “She was my one true love and I’ll never meet someone like her,” or “I must be a failure at love,” or other things that are simply not true.  Telling people that the standard/norm is to take an extremely long time to recover from a break-up seems toxic to me, and it seems that it might distract someone from realizing that if they’re still in a funk a year after a break-up, it’s probably not the break-up, but that you have larger issues that need to be dealt with.

But inside that bubble of sorrow?  It’s hard to see that. 

It doesn’t take just a month to get over a bad break-up of a long relationship.  Sometimes it will take several months to process everything that happened.  But you should have a realistic expectation of being functional and getting along pretty well in not too long a time, or else it’s time to rethink things.  And normalizing the idea that one “should” take years to recover is feeding the sort of negative thinking that can exacerbate genuine mental health issues.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  08:03 PM

What definition of “get over” are we working with here? If it’s “be able to dress yourself” or even “enjoy the company of others and live life more or less as normal”, then yeah, six months seems like the upper limit to me.

But “getting over” someone - especially after a long relationship - to the point of never thinking about them, getting rid of all your shared habits, working through any emotional scars they may have left (if hte relationship was not a healthy one), successfully sorting your friends into his and hers, and replacing all the CDs you bought together that you’re now missing a copy of, then sorry Amanda, but I think it’s perfectly legitimate, and not a sign of mental illness, for people to take longer.

I left my husband almost 2 years ago now, after a 10 year marriage; and even though I did all my grieving ahead of actually moving out, even though I’m in a great relationship with a wonderful man, even though I’m happier than I ever was in my marriage, I’m not “over it” to the extent of feeling like it never happened, never getting upset when old wounds are scratched, never being hurt when I hear my ex said hurtful things about me etc. etc. I don’t think that constitutes wallowing, though.

Comment #73: MarinaS  on  08/30  at  08:12 PM

Yeah, what a shock, faux-gressive d0000d Zifnab doesn’t get why this movie isn’t OK.

Faux-progressive d0000ds don’t see a problem with porn or PUA culture either so I don’t see why this would be any different.  Besides, they’re who the Manic Pixie Dream Girl movie trope was invented for.

Comment #74: DonnaDiva  on  08/30  at  08:17 PM

I wasn’t referring to scrubbing them from your mind—-you never really get over someone that way, do you?  No, my rule of thumb with people I’m close to on the “when to worry about them” scale is if they are beating themselves up or having emotional reactions that are way out of proportion more than a few months out.  Like, if I have a friend who had a train wreck of a relationship, and analyzing it frequently comes up in conversation, I don’t worry.  If they seem to have their normal personality back, and their sense of humor is intact. 

But if they’re still crying about it months after it happened, I’m going to worry about them.  If they characterize the person unfairly, then I worry about them.  If they overstate the person’s responsibility way out of bounds of what it was, then I worry.  If a male friend insists on roping everyone around him into labeling his ex a “bitch” when she was a perfectly nice woman, then I worry.  If they are paralyzed when it comes to dating again, I’d worry. 

I think the difference is this: 6 months out, if a friend told me they were still aching or crying, I’d worry.  If they wanted to have a beer and analyzing what went wrong came up, I wouldn’t think much of it.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  08:21 PM

It exacerbates mental health issues, and Mnem pointed out. I was trying, in a jokey way, to suggest that a good balance is to give yourself permission to be an insufferable wallower, but put some limits on it, and if you find that you can’t stay within those limits, give yourself permission to get help.

Fair ‘nuff.

There’s nothing like the blues for that, though. I mean, even the name is depressing.

I prefer the blues with dark humor better than woke up in the mawnin’ and yer baby was gaaawn blues during a breakup.

I prefer straightforward wallow music.  Country western doesn’t hold back.

Love Willie Nelson and Patsy Cline for some country wallowing.

Comment #76: shakahi  on  08/30  at  08:22 PM

Hell, I love analyzing.  I figure the thing you get to keep from any and all failed relationships is the right to analyze them until the end of time.  wink

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  08:23 PM

Amanda, you’ve obviously had the requisite experiences in getting into a relationship, breaking up, moving on, etc., so I’m not going to accuse you of inexperience or naiveté. You do, however, seem to have a stunning lack of empathy when it comes to people’s relationship angst and dealing with things like rejection and heartbreak. It doesn’t make you a bad person, but it does mean that there exists an area of discussion and shared experience that you really don’t relate to.

Count me among those who have a ‘stunning lack of empathy’ for this douchecornet*.  The man called a real, live person a “bitch” in the intro to his movie.  For the mortal transgression of dumping his sorry entitled wanker ass.  Mind you this is years after the end of his relationship with her, when he is supposedly over her, and in a relationship with another woman.  And we’re supposed to worry about seeming less-than-empathetic toward him, why, exactly?

Comment #78: DonnaDiva  on  08/30  at  08:25 PM

* Forgot to follow up my asterix.  I agree with DTL that douchecornet is a most excellent new word.

Comment #79: DonnaDiva  on  08/30  at  08:27 PM

Not to beat it to death, but if someone wants revenge—-unless it’s less than a week after the final break, and they’re not in any real danger of acting on it—-then I’m deeply concerned.  That said, if your ex really was a turd, I think you get lifetime rights to laugh at them if they keep finding romantic trouble.  But only if they really, objectively sucked—-cheaters, abusers, lying pieces of shit?  A little schadenfreude is inevitable.  But revenge is a darker territory, and that’s what this guy is doing.  And worse, he’s doing it to someone who didn’t do anything wrong.  He admits she was in the right to end a relationship that simply wasn’t working.

Comment #80: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  08:30 PM

Yes that does sound fair enough, Amanda.

Oh and thanks - I hadn’t quite conciously appreciated the years of girls’-night-out supremacy my more than usually fucked up relationship has endowed me with! Analysis FTW. smile

Comment #81: MarinaS  on  08/30  at  08:30 PM

Telling people that they “should” suffer for unbelievably long periods of time after a break-up strikes me as sadistic.  It certainly sends the incorrect message that your love is only real if you’re destroyed when it ends.

I see where you’re coming from: if I moved on from a relationship and got told I was cold-hearted because I didn’t spend six months crying about it, I’d be pissed. At the same time, a period of mourning that takes up your thoughts and has you going through the relationship step by step to see where things went wrong is pretty much normal—even if that lasts for a long time.

The premise of 500 Days of Summer isn’t shocking at all. The premise pretty much covers what people go through. As I said in the original thread, I don’t think you even realized that the “She likes the Smiths!?!” moment was supposed to be one of those, “Oh, yeah, I remember when I was enchanted by someone just because he/she liked the same mass market pop culture that I liked.”

I don’t see why we’re all supposed to be people perfectly happy with relationships that begin and end and just figuring that’s the way it goes without feeling cheated, betrayed, or having our hopes and expectations dashed when something unexpectedly ends. Seems like a perfectly normal reaction to me.

Count me among those who have a ‘stunning lack of empathy’ for this douchecornet*.  The man called a real, live person a “bitch” in the intro to his movie.

Yeah, fine, but in the context of Amanda’s original disdain existence of 500 Days of Summer in her original posts on it, I just think she’s not really into other people’s relationship angst and difficulties—which are perfectly normal reactions to disappointment and rejection. Yeah, sure, every so often, the person yelling, “Get over it!” is helpful, but I think it’s Amanda’s default reaction when it comes to these things, as if no one has any business being hurt over having been dealt a bad hand sometimes.

Comment #82: Tyro  on  08/30  at  08:31 PM

I don’t feel like a failure, and I’m not worried about meeting someone else I’ll be interested eventually. I signed up for Jdate when I was horribly depressed, and when I recovered a bit, I was just reading profiles. Some of them were very cool (unfortunately, none of the cool ones were local. The coolest one is in Indianapolis). I know that when I’m ready to date again, I’ll find someone I want to date.

But someone like her? I don’t know. I have barely any idea how I met her in the first place.

I’m just depressed because I miss the conversations we used to have, the time we would spend together. And it saddens me to know that I won’t have that with her again. Eventually I’ll be okay with that. Eventually I’ll feel less empty.

I can still laugh, that’s not a problem, I watch the Daily Show (when it isn’t on break), the Colbert Report, I read Pratchett, I visit Cute Overload and Icanhascheezeburger. I wouldn’t have survived a month if I couldn’t laugh. I use the name BenYitzhak for a reason.

Comment #83: BenYitzhak  on  08/30  at  08:31 PM

Yeah, fine, but in the context of Amanda’s original disdain existence of 500 Days of Summer in her original posts on it, I just think she’s not really into other people’s relationship angst and difficulties—which are perfectly normal reactions to disappointment and rejection.

Yeah, you’re wrong.  I love a good story of heartbreak, and am generally understood by friends as someone who will happily analyze What Went Wrong for as long as you like.

Perhaps it’s possible that I’m actually pretty attuned to the Nice Guy® syndrome?  It has nothing to do with heartbreak, and everything to do with the inherent problems with putting women on a pedestal, objectifying them, and refusing to respect their right to say not.

Comment #84: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  08:36 PM

And Tyro, the “I was unhappy until a woman lifted me, rinse, repeat” thing is a huge red flag to me that someone is objectifying.  I actually figured that out first in women I knew who were never happy unless they were in a relationship, and you can see that they really don’t see the men they’re with. 

Ben, the world is full of people that are a good match for you, I’m sure.  You have to believe it.  It’s hard, and I know from experience, to see how wonderful others are if you are stuck on the idea that your loves after this one will be second rate.  Turns out they’re usually even better.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  08:40 PM

ok, so i had no idea this movie was supposed to be taken from anything real and this guy is frightening.

but i saw 500 days of summer, and while i felt there were definitely troublesome elements, overall it did not strike me as a film that was supposed to be read as “summer is a heartless bitch, tom is a poor sensitive d00d, feel sorry for him!”  i actually liked the way it played out—she wasn’t interested in a serious relationship with him, she was upfront about it from the start, HE got other ideas so it ended and she ended up marrying someone later on who was presumably what she was looking for (and just as importantly WHEN she was looking for it).

i really didn’t think we were supposed to feel like summer was a bad person or that tom was in the right to get all obsessed because he found a cute girl who likes the smiths.  if anything, the little girl character showed how ridiculous he was being.  i do wish that summer had been developed as more than a one-dimensional cardboard cutout hipster girlfriend, but i even thought that part of the point may have been to show how tom thinks of her that way and thus isn’t really interested in summer as a real human—ok maybe that’s giving too much credit, but still.  am i seriously the only one who read the movie this way and was really confused by this guy’s article which makes it seem like the complete opposite?

Comment #86: chareth cutestory  on  08/30  at  08:41 PM

Flipping genders for a moment: are there any women that clueless where, after meeting a good looking guy and staring into his blue eyes for a while, would completely tune out what he is saying and instead start projecting all desired qualities upon him? I don’t know if the gender flip works in this case.

Comment #87: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  09:00 PM

I go out with friends, I read, I do things to avoid wallowing in depression, but my chest still hurts, and I don’t know how to make it stop. And I feel I should be happy again before I try to date again, but—sometimes I think I’d feel better if I met someone else.

Another damaging myth, since we’re talking about them: The myth that you have to be Perfect, Whole, and Zen before you can date.

Now, should you be more or less comfortable with yourself as a whole, healthy person before you get into a *serious* relationship? Sure.

Should you be pretty much past any past lovers before a new relationship? Yeah, probably. Though a twinge of nostalgia here and there can come up even decades in the future. And that’s OK.

Should you pursue relationships just because you feel empty and lost? Fuck no.

But you don’t have to be SPECTACULAR STUPENDOUS HAPPY before you go out to coffee with someone. Being interested in people and having a good time with them can actually help you get some of that healing done. Just know your limits and don’t get in over your head.

Comment #88: Well, what?  on  08/30  at  09:00 PM

I mean, so you woke up in the mawnin’ and yer baby was gaaawn. Maybe she has a job?

This cracked me the hell up.

It’s just now a week past six months, and I’ve managed to be depressed all through August, so I’m guessing it’ll take more time.

That said, yes, I’m depressed and I still love her, but I’m not angry with her. She didn’t want to hurt me. It’s just hard sometimes because it’s hard to imagine that I’m going to feel this way about someone else.

I realized somewhere around the three- or four-month mark of depression that the way I was feeling was no longer about her, but about me, and my own lack of experience with and perspective on relationships. I really don’t think the depression, or my life, would have gone anywhere from that point if I hadn’t gotten help for it. Even if it had, it would have taken a lot longer than it needed to, and I would have caused myself a lot of needless suffering.

Comment #89: junk science  on  08/30  at  09:01 PM

I have plenty of empathy.  Just not for the people who get more than they really deserve, as evidenced by their complete and utter inability to treat women like human beings with a right to their own mental health.

I think this is such a key point for gender relations in general.  Common assumptions about gender, which are expressed, for instance, in Freudianism, are that women are by nature not mentally healthy.  So then, what would it matter if some random male casts aspersions on a woman, and through his slander and hostility, threatens to damage her mental health?  It is assumed that she doesn’t have any, anyway—that she has nothing to lose.

Furthermore, this assumption that women have nothing to lose—expressed in Freudian terms as their intrinsic state of “castration”—makes women appear terrifying to men who adopt this perspective.  The psychological dynamics created by projecting this view upon women tend to skew reality in such a way that women actually SEEM to be all powerful in their very powerlessness.  Think about how an army that has nothing more to lose will fight all the more ferociously, whilst no longer trying to save itself.  There is precisely that element of dangerousness that is imputed to women, who are actually socially disempowered.  That is why they can seem so threatening and so powerless at the same time.  Actually it is the subconscious knowledge, on the part of males, that they have made women powerless, that causes these same types of males to feel threatened by women.  And their answer to feeling so threatened?  To try to remove even more power from women than that which they have already lost.  If social censure of women is not enough to salve the male conscience with regard to women (and thus make them feel safer and more in control), then the women must stay at home at all times, and wear a chador.  (But of course, this only serves to make women seem even more dangerous still.)

Comment #90: scratchy888  on  08/30  at  09:01 PM

are there any women that clueless where, after meeting a good looking guy and staring into his blue eyes for a while, would completely tune out what he is saying and instead start projecting all desired qualities upon him? I don’t know if the gender flip works in this case.

Oh, yeah, it does. It is absolutely possible, nay common. I’m still healing from this exact situation myself.

Comment #91: Well, what?  on  08/30  at  09:02 PM

are there any women that clueless where, after meeting a good looking guy and staring into his blue eyes for a while, would completely tune out what he is saying and instead start projecting all desired qualities upon him?

No doubt. But they’re never sympathetic viewpoint characters in Hollywood movies.

Comment #92: junk science  on  08/30  at  09:02 PM

re: Amanda’s statement about how long it takes people to grieve their relationships and move on - I thought it was spot on in certain ways. People had said similar stuff to me about needing to take half the time to get over the major relationship, and not rushing into things. The not rushing into things is good advice, but the pat answers about how long it takes before you hop into the dating waters are not. It’s bound to be different for everyone, and some people certainly do push an agenda, however, unconciously, while judging you for moving “too fast”. In my case, my ex had started dating again, and I had already decided that the chances of him coming back were nil, so why should I torture myself for six months to a year moping about it? So a month or two later, I started dating my current boyfriend, and MAN, you would not believe the flak I got for this. My ex—dating somebody new, remember?—had a fit. The current BF was a friend of his, but while I thought maybe he’d be relieved that his ex was dating somebody he knew to be a decent stable guy, that was not the case. Instead he threw a fit and informed both of us that there were RULES about dating friends of exes, and a whole bunch of other stuff which boiled down to: “She’s my property….don’t touch. And she hasn’t mourned me for six months, so this is all too fast.” He didn’t want to date me, but he didn’t want me dating anyone else, and one of the hammers he used was “Too fast,” and “rebound”.

Comment #93: PixelFish  on  08/30  at  09:04 PM

Hell, I love analyzing.  I figure the thing you get to keep from any and all failed relationships is the right to analyze them until the end of time.

LOL. I’m 32 and for the last few years I’ve felt extremely lucky that I made the relationship mistakes I did when I was in my late teens and early twenties, then analyzed the hell out of ‘em. I’ve been able to avoid those making those mistakes again i.e. Dating Nice Guys (tm), being passive aggressive, holding grudges and allowing myself to be a doormat to name a few. Sadly, I still see women my age and older making these mistakes repeatedly.

Comment #94: shakahi  on  08/30  at  09:24 PM

He didn’t want to date me, but he didn’t want me dating anyone else, and one of the hammers he used was “Too fast,” and “rebound”.
Comment #93: PixelFish on 08/30 at 04:04 PM

I hope both those hammers he was wielding “too fast” “rebounded” onto his head.

Comment #95: Mark Foxwell  on  08/30  at  09:26 PM

Chareth cutestory, I totally agree with you.

I just watched this movie last night, and while I hated Tom, I loved the movie.  The thing is, I think (and maybe I’m just projecting) that the movie was trying to show that Tom was messed up for all the reasons that everyone here is saying Tom is messed up.

(Spoiler alert…)

The wise little kid tells Tom to look back again at the relationship, that it probably wasn’t all that he thought it was.  And then Tom remembers Summer crying at The Graduate but being totally clueless.  Summer is clearly upset about life, and Tom just wants pancakes.  I think this scene shows that, on some level, Tom gets that there was more to Summer then he made an effort to get to know.

So yeah, Tom was in love with the idea of love, and was needy and clingy and gross…  But through the breakup, he sort of realizes that he needs to stop.  (As shown by the blind date girl who says, uh, she was completely honest with you.  And the split screen expectation/reality thing.)

So yeah, I feel like Tom was a jackass.  But the movie showed off all his jackassness in an authentic way…  But then again, the TERRIBLE last scene seemed to undo all the great progress he made.  Maybe the hollywood execs thought the movie would be more marketable with a happy ending?

Comment #96: Tina  on  08/30  at  09:30 PM

scratchy888, that was an awesome comment and I wish I had made it.

Comment #97: junk science  on  08/30  at  09:38 PM

Maybe it’s the same problem with Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Throughout most of the movie, it seems to be pretty understanding that Sarah was within her rights to dump the main character, even if her cheating was out of line.  Then, for no reason, they have this whole humiliating revenge thing and I was angry.  I really don’t like the revenge thing.

Comment #98: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/30  at  09:42 PM

I just watched this movie last night, and while I hated Tom, I loved the movie.  The thing is, I think (and maybe I’m just projecting) that the movie was trying to show that Tom was messed up for all the reasons that everyone here is saying Tom is messed up.

But the screenwriter says he deliberately told us at the beginning of the movie that the exact opposite is true…

The opening credits for my film include the standard legal disclaimer that ‘any resemblance to people living or dead is purely coincidental’. But then it adds: ‘Especially you, Jenny Beckman. Bitch.’

Comment #99: shakahi  on  08/30  at  09:50 PM

‘Especially you, Jenny Beckman. Bitch.’

Maybe I’m not typical, but to me that screamed, “I’m a petty, vindictive asshole who carries grudges forever. Jenny Beckman is well rid of me.”

Comment #100: Hector B.  on  08/30  at  09:53 PM

Tyro, you said:

“Yeah, sure, every so often, the person yelling, “Get over it!” is helpful, but I think it’s Amanda’s default reaction when it comes to these things, as if no one has any business being hurt over having been dealt a bad hand sometimes.”

I think you’re being unfair.  It’s kind of funny because this post talks about projection and that’s what you’re doing to Amanda.  The woman in the movie made her position on dating clear, but the guy ignored it and projected his ideas onto her. Amanda has made her position clear and has even taken the time to flesh out her beliefs even more in the comments, but despite what she’s written, you keep ignoring it and projecting other ideas. Obviously, you have an opinion about her personality that won’t change despite evidence to the contrary.

  I’ve been reading this blog for awhile (though this is only the second time I’ve commented on a post) and I’ve never gotten the impression that Amanda doesn’t care about people’s feelings. She’s very reasonable and tells it like it is.

Maybe this is your own sexism being projected here because Amanda doesn’t follow the bullshit stereotype of women always being nurturing, caring booboo-kissers all the time. A person can still care without constantly kissing booboos and it’s perfectly okay to not care about some people’s feelings or situations* (like the guy who wrote the movie). Is it necessary for her to have a note qualifying every position she has so that people can rest easy and not think she’s lacking empathy?

Your comments raised some red flags to me because I hate being admonished for not seeming to care enough for someone’s comfort just because I tell things like they are and I’m not empathetic or sympathetic for whatever reason. Men are rarely criticized for not seeming to care enough about other people’s feelings.

*I shouldn’t and don’t care about people’s feelings when they’re sexist, racist, homophobic, etc assholes who are butthurt because they feel like they can’t oppress certain groups anymore.

Comment #101: annabanana  on  08/30  at  09:57 PM

To call someone a “bitch” for dumping you is to imply that she was wrong and mean-spirited to do so, but the fact that you wield the word “bitch” to describe women who believe they own their own selves is evidence that she was actually a wise woman for getting rid of your sorry ass.

Seriously? You never called a guy who dumped you a nasty name?

Comment #102: pablo  on  08/30  at  10:07 PM

Oh wait. Now I get it. You think Jenny Beckman is real, and the opening of the film is a real insult to this real person. She’s not, it’s not. It’s just a dopey gag at the beginning of a dopey movie.

Comment #103: pablo  on  08/30  at  10:15 PM

Chareth cutestory and Tina, that was my reading of it as well. I also thought that Summer was so one-dimensional because Tom never bothered to explore her beyond the fantasy that he’s constructed. Tom is clearly a fucked-up guy. I was a little disappointed in the ending - he seemed to be growing and then fell right back into his unhealthy patterns. I thought that the movie was poking fun at the “romantic” nice guy stereotype and deconstructing it to show that it’s actually not a good way to be (as opposed to most rom coms, which keep pushing this type as an ideal sensitive boyfriend). I thought it was a pretty cynical way to end the film, but then again I tend to believe that people can grow and change.

Also, whatever the writer says doesn’t change my interpretation. We live in post modern times and have thrown the idea of privileging authorial intent out the window, right? smile So, really, who cares what he says? He might be a Nice Guy (tm) douche, but that plays no role in my reading of his film or whether I like it.

Comment #104: elena  on  08/30  at  10:21 PM

Oh wait. Now I get it. You think Jenny Beckman is real, and the opening of the film is a real insult to this real person. She’s not, it’s not. It’s just a dopey gag at the beginning of a dopey movie.

“Here. Allow me to condescend to you, that I might avoid considering for even the briefest of instants just how incredibly right you are in your analysis.”

So his entire article, in which he claims Jenny Beckman is real, and dumped him, and inspired him to watch the movie, is just a giant Bruno-style gag? I’m sure. Did ya read the link, or just jump straight on the fail train?

Comment #105: Well, what?  on  08/30  at  10:26 PM

(and for what it’s worth, no, pablo…I haven’t ever called someone who dumped me a nasty name.)

Comment #106: Well, what?  on  08/30  at  10:29 PM

I hope we someday get to the point in our society where calling a woman a “bitch” is relegated to the same level of calling a black person a “nigger”—something that automatically makes you an outcast from polite/mainstream society.

Comment #107: Ben D.  on  08/30  at  10:30 PM

However, I’ll also agree with Amanda re: bitch. I don’t like revenge. Maybe he wrote the film right after being dumped and it took a bit of time to get picked up by a studio. Maybe Jenny is real and he is still angry. Maybe he didn’t want to take the disclaimer out even though he’s not angry anymore. Maybe he thought it funny. Whatever the reason is, putting that in was not a good thing. Not from a personal standpoint nor artistic one. It just doesn’t work. What’s worse, it smacks of “I have the upper hand because my story is being heard by the whole world and you have no power to respond.” Its petty and mean-spirited. It didn’t ruin the film for me for whatever reason but I can see how it could and I think taking the filmmaker to task for it is not uncalled-for.

Comment #108: elena  on  08/30  at  10:40 PM

pablo:

Oh wait. Now I get it. You think Jenny Beckman is real, and the opening of the film is a real insult to this real person. She’s not, it’s not. It’s just a dopey gag at the beginning of a dopey movie.

Hilarious. It’s clearly right up there in the pantheon of humor with “black guys have big dicks,” “Mexicans are lazy,” and “government bureaucrats are going to get between you and your doctor.”

Because it’s so much easier (and, sadly, better paying) than coming up with something that’s actually funny.

Comment #109: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/30  at  10:40 PM

Also:

“it’s a pseudonym” != “it’s not a real person”

Being stupid on purpose is for losers.

Comment #110: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/30  at  10:42 PM

I think we’re selling “Jenny” a bit short.  She could very well have realized what the douchebag was up to and wouldn’t give him the satisfaction of letting him know.

I actually had the experience of having a friend use me as a model for an unflattering minor character in a screenplay she wrote, in which all the characters were recognizably based on herself and people she knew. I was definitely puzzled and a little hurt, but I never brought it up with her—not because I thought she was a douchebag (she’s a lovely person and a good friend), but mainly because I didn’t feel up to confronting her about it. Also, when I thought about it more, I figured she was using the screenplay to work out some issues of her own (the main thrust of the story was her dissatisfaction with the emptiness of the life she was leading at the time), and that it was her right to do what she wanted with her characters.

Maybe that was just me rationalizing it? And I certainly would have felt differently had I seen myself called out by name in the opening credits of a movie.

All that said, does anybody else see perhaps a hint of self-deprecation in this “bitch” comment directed at this “Jenny Beckman” person (who I’m still not convinced isn’t fictionalized in some way)? As numerous people here have noted, calling someone a bitch/jerk/asshole/whatever in the immediate anger and pain of a breakup isn’t terribly uncommon; holding onto that sentiment years later probably points to issues you need to deal with; publicly exclaiming it on a freaking screenplay is such an over-the-top douchebag move that it says more about the author than about the person it’s aimed at. Which might be partly the point.

As in: “Yes, years have passed, we’ve both moved on, I’m in another relationship and have even reached enough professional success that I’ve got this movie made. But on some level, I’m still not over you. How pathetic is that?” Or perhaps: “You’re so vain, you probably think this film and my attempt at creating an archetypical quirky indie-rock love interest are about you.”

Of course, I’d feel better about it if it turns out that the ex-girlfriend’s name isn’t really Jenny Beckman.

Comment #111: karenia brevis  on  08/30  at  10:42 PM

The fact that this film was based on a true story makes me like it even more. I feel bad that Jenny had to go through all that bullshit, but at least asshole Scott got what was coming to him. If he lied and had Jenny go for Tom in the end, the film would have sucked big time, not to mention been extremely creepy. But I’m still crossing my fingers that he doesn’t make a sequel about “Autumn.” I’d puke in my mouth if that happened.

Comment #112: Emily  on  08/30  at  11:10 PM

You know, if Jenny Beckman’s not real, that makes it even more pathetic in a way. YEAH, TAKE THAT, PERSON WHO DOESN’T EXIST! TAKE THAT, AMALGAM OF ALL MY EX-GIRLFRIENDS! You could almost accept it as a joke, like the screenwriter making fun of himself, but this article ruins that. No, he clearly decided to cathartically release his feelings by insulting his ex but couldn’t actually mentoin her by name, and this sordidness took place in front of movie audiences everywhere. I am reminded of the scene in Mulholland Drive where Naomi Watts cries while masturbating furiously and pitifully.

And, seriously, most of the time, the audience (including your evil ex-girlfriend!) will automatically relate most to the protagonist (unless the creator very clearly wants you not to), especially if the protagonist is strongly the main character (that is, they get more fleshed out, noticeably more lines, and noticeably more focus than the others, as opposed to, say, a Tarantino movie, which is generally more of an ensemble kind of thing even with one main character). So if your ex-girlfriend sees herself as the hero, it’s probably because he’s the hero. Of course, the screenwriter probably astounded for two reasons:
1) A woman identifies most with a man? WHAT IS THIS BLASPHEMY?
2) Not only might she have been the Tom in THEIR relationship, but maybe she was the Tom in a DIFFERENT relationship of hers, and the movie made her think of that other one? But of course, she’s never really had a boyfriend other than him. That’s just something the ladies make up to beguile men.

Comment #113: Lenina  on  08/30  at  11:31 PM

the only person responsible for your happiness is you.

Hi Mom!  Nice guest post.  *waves*

Comment #114: bomberE  on  08/31  at  12:06 AM

So his entire article, in which he claims Jenny Beckman is real, and dumped him, and inspired him to watch the movie, is just a giant Bruno-style gag? I’m sure. Did ya read the link, or just jump straight on the fail train?

Check out the facebook page for Jenny Beckman. It’s clearly a marketing gimmick. And you fell for it.

Comment #115: pablo  on  08/31  at  12:12 AM

Check out the facebook page for Jenny Beckman. It’s clearly a marketing gimmick. And you fell for it.

In other words, the studio decided they needed the douchebag audience, which makes it yet another stroke film for self-centered 15-year olds.

Yeah, that’s much better.

Comment #116: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  12:32 AM

Yeah, he seems even worse if he wrote an article about an imaginary ex-girlfriend he still resents after all these years.  I mean, at what point is this guy going to pass over the douchebag international timeline and start coming back around the other side?

Comment #117: Eileen  on  08/31  at  12:36 AM

Seriously? You never called a guy who dumped you a nasty name?

Suggesting that someone is the worst piece of trash for rejecting you personally isn’t a luxury really extended to women.  You’re then one who’s a crazy bitch then.  When I’ve been out and out rejected, the most was a private moment, maybe shared with a friend, where I suggested it’s possible he made a mistake, and then flinched at having such a big ego as to suggest that.

Comment #118: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  12:48 AM

It’s just a dopey gag at the beginning of a dopey movie.

That sounds more like a dodge than a genuine move to be interesting, satirical, and post-modern.

Comment #119: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  12:50 AM

I mean, at what point is this guy going to pass over the douchebag international timeline and start coming back around the other side?

Eileen, you’re killing me here.

Comment #120: Clio  on  08/31  at  12:55 AM

It’s kind of funny because this post talks about projection and that’s what you’re doing to Amanda.  The woman in the movie made her position on dating clear, but the guy ignored it and projected his ideas onto her. Amanda has made her position clear and has even taken the time to flesh out her beliefs even more in the comments, but despite what she’s written, you keep ignoring it and projecting other ideas. Obviously, you have an opinion about her personality that won’t change despite evidence to the contrary.

In the overall context of Amanda’s commentary on this movie, in previous instances, and other times, I’ve basically gathered that she really doesn’t really feel much of a connection to people’s discussions of hurt and loss of self-worth due to failed relationships. Hell, 500 Days of Summer was precisely about our personal foibles and projections and missed expectations in a relationship, and Amanda condemned the movie for… well, acknowledging that people go through these things, or, possible because the movie casted the character who went through that as the protagonist, rather than the villain (I really don’t know). And she never quite understood the movie High Fidelity, either.

And I’ve seen other people express similar sentiments—basically a sort of mocking “why are you burdening me with being torn up with a silly feeling like heartbreak in public?” because they don’t really see it as a valid experience. People have blind-spots, and I think this is one of Amanda’s.

Now, maybe there’s overall something to be said that our entire conception of relationships is wrong and we are making mistakes about projecting hopes of the future and hopes of what we want a relationship to be rather than what it is, but Amanda complains about the very portrayal of these things onscreen. I think the natural reaction for most people with these things is watching them and thinking, “Hm. Yeah, I’ve been there,” but from Amanda we get hostility to the very concept itself.

Comment #121: Tyro  on  08/31  at  01:07 AM

I prefer straightforward wallow music.  Country western doesn’t hold back.

Unfortunately, that along with any depressing sounding music tends to dig a deeper depressive hole for me if I am undergoing something as emotionally wrenching as a breakup.  I personally prefer something with high energy and aggressiveness in terms of music and/or lyrics (i.e. Green Day’s Basket Case, Cranberries’ Dreams, many versions of I fought the law, etc) to get me out of a depressive rut.

Comment #122: exholt  on  08/31  at  01:13 AM

I’ve also heard to expect it to take half the amount of time the relationship lasted or just as long as the relationship lasted.

I had an ex put the duration of our relationship into a website that spit out the “appropriate” time for him to grieve, then he reported it back to me.  If it had been a joke, I might have been more amiable to his suggestion that we not break up at all.  Unfortunately, he really was using it as a pity-ploy to guilt me into staying with him.  This was, obviously, sad and scary.  I’m sure he still hates me if and when I cross his mind for any reason, but for my part I really hope he’s put enough good lovers in between me and him to know that we were not right for each other.  And I prefer the breakups where everyone calms down and can be at least civil to each other once the obligatory “Fuck me?  No, fuck you” phase is over.

Comment #123: Kyso K  on  08/31  at  01:27 AM

It’s clearly a marketing gimmick. And you fell for it.

...and once again Pablo taps out on a technicality.

It **does not matter** whether Jenny is a real person, a pseudonym, or an amalgam of this douchenozzle’s various exes, or what have you. The SENTIMENT, and mode of expression of said sentiment, are worthy of critique. If it’s just a marketing ploy, then we ought to critique why such a ploy is desirable.

And thinking about the implications of something that is “marketed” as true is not the same thing as “falling” for shit. Again with the hoping that being a condescending snotwipe will keep you from having to think at all!

Comment #124: Well, what?  on  08/31  at  01:38 AM

But I’m still crossing my fingers that he doesn’t make a sequel about “Autumn.” I’d puke in my mouth if that happened.

(snorts soda) Too funny!

Comment #125: shakahi  on  08/31  at  02:44 AM

Also, whatever the writer says doesn’t change my interpretation. We live in post modern times and have thrown the idea of privileging authorial intent out the window, right?

True. I guess it just shows a lack of imagination on my part but I couldn’t see it differently after knowing what the author’s douchespray intent was.

Comment #126: shakahi  on  08/31  at  02:50 AM

But that was 7 years ago. I don’t give a rats ass what he’s up to now. When is this douchebag going to let it go?

Presumably when Carly Simon stops cashing the cheques for “You’re So Vain”.

Comment #127: seeker6079  on  08/31  at  08:46 AM

Isn’t Summer just a female version of Big in “Sex in the City“?  (Genuine Question.  I have not seen the movie, so cannot speak to the conduct of Summer.)

They both represent perfection images for the person with the feelings of longing; they both scoot in and out of their lover’s lives long enough to get the lover’s hopes up; they both feel that providing verbal caveats as to the amount of their commitment excuses actual intimate messages which they know or ought to know give more vivid and welcome messages to the contrary which will override the verbal cautions.

I’ve been on both sides of that dynamic, and like to think that I learned one thing: that being the longed-for party gives one an extra bit of responsibility.  There is a point at which one has to say No, to be the one who says the other “no, I am not going to go spend that kind of intimate time with you because I know or damned well ought to know that you are going to fall deeper and will not truly hear my warnings not to because feelings are clearly stronger than words”.  It is not a gender thing it is a “please don’t take advantage of somebody else’s longing” thing.

Comment #128: seeker6079  on  08/31  at  08:59 AM

Chareth cutestory, Tina, and Elena - same here. Someone mentioned the blind date scene, where it’s explicitly noted that Summer did nothing wrong. Tom’s date notes that Summer didn’t lie, cheat or any of that, and she was always honest with him. I really don’t understand how that article matches the movie I saw. I thought for a moment it might be a marketing ploy because the article IS the movie - I mean, the line about the Smiths and Swedish movies is IN the movie - but who knows. Tom comes off as immature, bitter, clingy and desperate (until he meets the next one), and the “bitch” comment at the beginning of the movie set the stage for that.

I saw the movie (a friend suggested it, I said, “okay”) and OH, MY GOD, even on the screen their is absolutely no insight as to who “Summer” really is at all.

The scene that really got me was when Summer invites Tom back to her apartment and they show them lying around, talking, and we SEE Summer talking but don’t hear her - the narrator is talking over her about how she was finally letting down her walls, telling him her hopes/dreams/fears, but even then we don’t get to hear them. The narrator’s talking about Tom, and how much this all means for Tom and Tom is so special to get to hear this all, etc.

When this movie first came up on here I noted it was very Manic Pixie Dream Girl, and I also let some of the commentators convince me I just wasn’t getting it and really it was this complex commentary on the whole MPDG cliche, blah, blah, blah. I thought I had misunderstood this scene and in fact it was highlighting this idea that even when the MPDG speaks, no one listens. Turns out that probably was overthinking things, though it goes to show how you can interpret anything to fit the explanation you want.

Comment #129: antiope  on  08/31  at  09:09 AM

“Also, whatever the writer says doesn’t change my interpretation. We live in post modern times and have thrown the idea of privileging authorial intent out the window, right? smile So, really, who cares what he says? He might be a Nice Guy (tm) douche, but that plays no role in my reading of his film or whether I like it.”

I don’t know if I’m on board with punting authorial intent into the cheap seats, but we definitely have way more media now where “authorial” intent is a shaky foundation at best due to the level of collaboration required to work in them.  Ray Bradbury tells everyone that <u>Fahrenheit 451</u> is actually <u>Amusing Ourselves to Death: The Novel</u>, and we think “No, dude, you’re thinking of <u>Brave New World</u>.” Charlie Kaufman tells everyone that his latest film was supposed to be a meditation on love and loss, and we think “Yeah, maybe Michael Bay wasn’t the best guy to let direct a film about Alzheimer’s.  Also, what is it with Lionsgate and random musical numbers lately?” In films, there’s a point past which it doesn’t really matter what the screenwriter meant if the director or producer has different ideas or if the studio demands something more marketable.

Comment #130: preying mantis  on  08/31  at  10:24 AM

“i really didn’t think we were supposed to feel like summer was a bad person or that tom was in the right to get all obsessed because he found a cute girl who likes the smiths.  if anything, the little girl character showed how ridiculous he was being.  i do wish that summer had been developed as more than a one-dimensional cardboard cutout hipster girlfriend, but i even thought that part of the point may have been to show how tom thinks of her that way and thus isn’t really interested in summer as a real human—ok maybe that’s giving too much credit, but still.  am i seriously the only one who read the movie this way and was really confused by this guy’s article which makes it seem like the complete opposite?”

I haven’t seen it yet, but I tend to want to watch anything with Joseph Gordon-Levitt (based on him “Mysterious Skin” and “The Lookout”) and most things with Zooey Deschanel, but this was pretty much the interpretation the guys from the Filmspotting podcast took from it, if I remember correctly. They (or at least one of them) said it was a takedown on the concept of Manic Pixie Dreamgirls.

Comment #131: witless chum  on  08/31  at  10:54 AM

Chareth cutestory, Tina, and Elena - same here. Someone mentioned the blind date scene, where it’s explicitly noted that Summer did nothing wrong. Tom’s date notes that Summer didn’t lie, cheat or any of that, and she was always honest with him. I really don’t understand how that article matches the movie I saw. I thought for a moment it might be a marketing ploy because the article IS the movie - I mean, the line about the Smiths and Swedish movies is IN the movie - but who knows. Tom comes off as immature, bitter, clingy and desperate (until he meets the next one), and the “bitch” comment at the beginning of the movie set the stage for that.

Put me down as one more who didn’t think the “bitch” quote at the start or the article matched the tone of the movie at all. Summer, although an underdeveloped character, comes across as honest and in touch with her feelings about Tom. He, on the other hand, has a whole series of romantic fantasies about “the one” and “true love” that bear no relationship to real life.

Comment #132: Col Bat Guano  on  08/31  at  01:51 PM

are there any women that clueless where, after meeting a good looking guy and staring into his blue eyes for a while, would completely tune out what he is saying and instead start projecting all desired qualities upon him?

Oh heck yes.  I agree with the assessment that this woman would never be the heroine of a Hollywood movie, though.  She’d be the (wiser) female protagonist’s best friend, the one who’s there mostly for comic relief.  I’m pretty sure this is pretty much a stock character in chick flicks, though she’s usually portrayed at someone who thinks she can Change Her Man rather than someone who’s in complete denial about who her man actually is.

Comment #133: Naomi  on  08/31  at  02:03 PM

are there any women that clueless where, after meeting a good looking guy and staring into his blue eyes for a while, would completely tune out what he is saying and instead start projecting all desired qualities upon him?

No doubt. But they’re never sympathetic viewpoint characters in Hollywood movies.

A number of Jane Austen’s young female protagonists mistakenly project romantic fantasies onto men, yet still remain sympathetic characters.  I am thinking in particular of Emma (not to mention her updated incarnation Cher in Clueless), and also to some extent Sense and Sensibility‘s Marianne Dashwood and Northanger Abbey‘s Catherine Morland.

Comment #134: Pomme  on  08/31  at  02:53 PM

uh, wrongside, how is summer an anti-love sociopath?  she’s married to someone else at the end—presumably she was in love with that guy, she just wasn’t with tom.  or do you think it’s impossible to like, have fun with someone but not be interested in a serious relationship with them (or anyone at a given time)?

and while tom does end up connecting (?) with the girl at the end, it’s hardly clear she’s his hitting the love lottery. in fact, she’ll probably be summer 2.0 and tom will be in an endless cycle of his own delusional behavior, which is depressing to think about, but once again, probably realistic.

Comment #135: chareth cutestory  on  08/31  at  03:32 PM

are there any women that clueless where, after meeting a good looking guy and staring into his blue eyes for a while, would completely tune out what he is saying and instead start projecting all desired qualities upon him?

No doubt—See, oh, every single season of The Bachelor.  Some of those guys were such empty suits it was easy for some of the women to project whatever they wanted onto them, and then start blathering about ‘connections’ and ‘falling for him’ after knowing the guy for 2 days.  I still think the most interesting women on the show were the ones who just said ‘this guy isn’t for me’ and walked off with their dignity intact, rather than stay and try to force it or fall for the ‘this will be your LAST CHANCE AT LOVE’ bull$hit being pushed by the show’s host.

Comment #136: Sour Kraut  on  08/31  at  04:19 PM

Call me a psychopath, but I got over my ex husband with whiplash-inducing speed. Then again, this is probably because, due to his constant ill treatment of me, I had long ago stopped loving him or even giving a crap if he lived or died. So physically moving out and filing for divorce was nothing but a relief, and I had a new relationship almost immediately. For which many former “friends” dumped me and talked behind my back because you know what this means? I AM A SLUT!!! lol. What ever.

OMG ONOZ I was supposed to spend months grieving over a poopyhead who couldn’t be bothered to drive me home from the hospital after major surgery. That’s right, I had to call a girlfriend’s mother to get home from the hospital when I was literally unable to walk unassisted because my abs had been cut through. And then during the recovery my mom flew in from Alabama to take care of me because my “husband” abandoned me all day long, only coming home long enough to sleep and then leaving again. No sooner had my surgery been scheduled than he signed up for night classes so he “couldn’t” be home to help me out when I was bedbound. God what a rat.

So sorry for not crying for him when the doctor pronounced me physically healed enough to handle moving out! How evil I am for not observing a period of celibacy when I got my ass out of there. HA! If this makes me a slut, I’m happy to be one.

Regardless of the reason why I leave, by the time I have got sufficient reason to leave someone, chances are there’s not much in the way of feelings to grieve over. Now if they dump me, there’s going to be a couple months of anger and heavy drinking, no lie. I dunno, maybe I’m just jaded by now.

Comment #137: Creepy Doll  on  08/31  at  04:49 PM

“Call me a psychopath, but I got over my ex husband with whiplash-inducing speed. Then again, this is probably because, due to his constant ill treatment of me, I had long ago stopped loving him or even giving a crap if he lived or died.”

It seems reasonable that any sort of mourning period you’d normally have for a relationship will get eaten into if the relationship is more or less on life-support (or zombified, as in the above example) for a while before the official break-up occurs.  You start get your moping and anger and depression and whatnot out of your system when you really realize it isn’t going to work, not when you get around to finalizing it.

Comment #138: preying mantis  on  08/31  at  05:21 PM

Oh Google ads!  How can anyone resist?!?!

Join Us - Combat Feminism
Conservative Christian Women to fight liberal feminism.

*titters*

Comment #139: Mimi  on  08/31  at  06:07 PM

ok, a number of things:

1. that quote (and it’s brown hair, no?) is kind of silly hyperbole, given that from what little we do know of summer, i think it’s safe to say she loves all kinds of things, for instance, music. i don’t think it’s meant to suggest that she seriously is a sociopath, but that she probably has some issues with believing in long-term monogamy.

2. same as above, also being questioning of the concept we’re sold of “in love” isn’t the same thing as not believing in love at all.

3.  sid vicious was far from a sociopath, but it’s funny that you bring up this exchange as proof that summer is one, because the whole tragedy of sid and nancy is that they were completely psychotically codependent.  whatever you could say about them, i think that they felt a deep, passionate, soulconsuming love for each other. 

4. i don’t know what you’re on about with the rest so i can’t really address it, but you seem to be confused by the notion of a not serious relationship.  all of the things you listed could be serious or not, depending on the parties’ intentions.  summer clearly had fun hanging out with tom and having sex with him, but that’s all she wanted and it had a limited shelf-life.  this is, believe it or not, a very common experience.

Comment #140: chareth cutestory  on  08/31  at  08:59 PM

i’ll add that i’m in no way implying sid and nancy were healthy; of course they were not, but denying that they were in love is weird to me.

also, you seem to be forgetting that summer was completely upfront about her desires and expectations regarding tom from the beginning, as is reiterated in the blind date scene.  she wasn’t dishonest—he just had more feelings for her from the beginning, chose to accept a relationship on her terms and when she didn’t change what SHE wanted, had a conniption.  what exactly did she do wrong again?

Comment #141: chareth cutestory  on  08/31  at  09:06 PM

I checked the reviews on IMDb and of course there’s one by a guy who is bitter about his own failed relationship and calls Summer the selfish villain of the movie. Uh huh. I’m kind of curious about seeing it just because I’m interested in any possible “deconstruction of the MPDG rom-com” value it may have. But the whole Jenny Beckman thing is really idiotic publicity. Whether she symbolizes a real person or not, it’s still just a way to attract all the douchebags who believe that they are entitled to a woman’s love and enjoy painting all Women with one broad brush just on the actions of one woman.

Comment #142: ArtOfMe  on  08/31  at  10:23 PM

I was listening to this guy get interviewed on the Creative Screenwriting podcast today.  The girl was real.  The name is changed.  The story he tells is a true story.  And yes, he still sounded pissed about it all.  The cutest part?  When he recounts her identifying with Tom, get audibly pissed and frustrated, and says, “Yes, OF COURSE that is exactly something you would say” to her, as if she was there. 

Diagnosis:  douche

Comment #143: Eileen  on  08/31  at  11:27 PM

Movies like this make me think my tendency to avoid movies without either monsters or kung fu is probably a sound policy. I don’t understand anything about them, including why they ever get past the stage of being words on paper. Doesn’t anyone ever take the writer aside and say “Yeah dude, she broke your heart, we get it” then explain that it’s happened to well-nigh everyone and it’s not really that interesting?

Comment #144: mtbv1  on  09/01  at  06:07 AM

wrongsideofthetracks :
“I think the really creepy scissor scene drives the point home… “

Care to tell those of us who didn’t and won’t see the movie what you mean by that?  Don’t forget the SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT, though by now I believe that everybody who wants to see it has seen it.

Comment #145: seeker6079  on  09/01  at  11:09 AM

re wrongsideofthetracks at 0900:

Me, I’d love to see a thread here on the roles that Labels play in facilitating understanding of and within relationships.  Progressivey types like us tend to be wary of labels because (a) they’re frequently bullshit and (b) used to tar and feather The Other, but wrongsideofthetracks does make a point that they serve a role in helping people understand what the devil is going on and who is with (and must show fidelity to) whom.  Summer’s constant caveats can stand as a label in this regard, no?

Comment #146: seeker6079  on  09/01  at  11:12 AM

A number of Jane Austen’s young female protagonists mistakenly project romantic fantasies onto men, yet still remain sympathetic characters.

Yup.  Both Wickham and Willoughby could be characterized as mistakenly-projected romantic fantasies.

Comment #147: FlipYrWhig  on  09/01  at  12:14 PM

wrongside - i don’t have time to post a wiki link to sociopathy or whatever, but you’re off the charts on this one. 

as for interpretation, i get that this is the story he’s telling in interviews (which may or may not be marketing), but i don’t care how the author views the film; i take it as it appears to me, which is not that summer was a sociopath—how do you explain the little girl and tom’s blind date both calling him out on being in the wrong?  the two just don’t match up, what he’s saying now and what the film actually shows. 

i’m neither inexperienced nor naive; i see the world in shades of grey, especially when concerning human relationships.  i agree that labels come with expectations, but i’d argue that if you’re with someone who SPECIFICALLY SAYS THEY ARE NOT INTO LABELS, then that means they’re not into the expectations that come with them.  i mean, what would be the point of eschewing labels otherwise, if the person didn’t mean to put you on notice that whatever expectations you had of them (in this case, tom’s expecting summer to be his One True Love) would not be honored.  it’s the exact opposite of cowardice to tell someone upfront that you aren’t looking for a serious relationship.

Comment #148: chareth cutestory  on  09/01  at  12:51 PM

chareth, to get in between you and wrongside: I agree completely that “it’s the exact opposite of cowardice to tell someone upfront that you aren’t looking for a serious relationship”.  I would only add that one can say that, but if you know or ought to know that they other person doesn’t see it that way then you’ve got one simple rule—don’t lead them on—with two simple subrules: don’t date ‘em and don’t fuck ‘em.  If one breaks that rule then one has Dun Her/Him Wrong and no amount of “well, I told you” will get one out of it.  In matters of the heart feelings trump footnotes and warnings on the wrapper and there’s nothing that us rational, verbal types can do to change that.

You’ve seen the movie and I haven’t, so you’d be better placed to tell me whether she broke or kept that simple rule.  Did she?

Comment #149: seeker6079  on  09/01  at  02:18 PM

well, i agree with you seeker, in that if you know that a person is starting to expect more of you than you’ve made clear you’re willing to give, the best way to handle it is to discuss and probably get out of that situation.  unfortunately in the film, as often is the case in real life, it is not so clear that tom has completely different relationship goals and views, at least not by his behavior without the benefit of voiceover narration.  the problem is that tom seems able to handle it for awhile, but he’s deluding himself into thinking that even though summer explicitly isn’t looking for anything serious with him, that because she is His One True Love, she’ll come around and probably also that he can keep this totally casual.

this is a fairly common occurrence in my experience, when one person is way more into being in a serious relationship than the other.  as the movie progresses, summer does realize that she and tom aren’t on the same page and she calls him out on it. on multiple occasions summer is clear about what she can give him when they hit a snag and he goes along with it, indicating acceptance of her terms.  ultimately, she breaks it off.  i think there’s room for debate on when she should have broken it off and there’s an argument to be made that it should have been sooner, after the fight scene, but we aren’t talking about some long affair to begin with—at best, she could have cut him loose a couple weeks sooner, so i’m on team summer on this one. she made her terms clear to him, he accepted and went along with it.  she’s not privy to his internal monologue and it’s clear that he was trying to keep it casual, while telling himself otherwise.

Comment #150: chareth cutestory  on  09/01  at  02:38 PM

Ta, chareth, much obliged.  It doesn’t sound like she was doing wrong, which, naturally, makes the “bitch” tag that much more distasteful.

Comment #151: seeker6079  on  09/01  at  02:59 PM

the only real indicator that summer might want anything more serious is the spilling of intimate secrets—fucking and goofing around at ikea do not in my mind equate to a desire for serious monogamous commitment.  i can’t speak for everyone but if that’s all it takes to tell a guy i’m picking out my white dress well, call me chareth finn, sociopathic man-teasing bitch!

Comment #152: chareth cutestory  on  09/01  at  05:00 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.