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Next entry: Because I’m stoked Previous entry: Faux News: new Surgeon General nom ‘too fat’ to serve

Exploiting the quick to judge

Lately, when I see proposed abortion restrictions that are almost surely not going to get very far, such as this Ohio bill that would require the father of a fetus to sign off on an abortion before it could be performed, I tend to skip past writing about them, lest I sound like a broken record.  Same thing with restrictions that aren’t particularly creatives, which is the same story with this bill, as it’s been tried before.  But I’m going to make an exception this time, because I learned something new today because of this bill.

No, I didn’t learn that anti-choicers are more interested in protecting male dominance than fetal life. Nor did I learn that the anti-choice strategy is to make abortion prohibitively expensive, create delays that force women to have abortions later in their pregnancies (where they can be punished with more pain, expense, and anguish for the crime of fucking), or that they’re trying to pass so many regulations that it becomes impossible for abortion providers to meet them all.  I already knew all of this. 

What I learned was that you can totally paternity test early in a pregnancy, at least according to this DNA testing center, which may admittedly be selling snake oil.  The reason this comes up is that the bill lovingly details what the state should do in the case of disgusting sluttitude, i.e. when a woman isn’t sure who the father is.  That this is a point of major concern should surprise no one reading this blog, as anti-choicers are renowned for their panty-sniffing perversion.  If there’s any question, then of course you have to make a list of all possible candidates and get them paternity tested, which is another way of saying you don’t get an abortion because you’re a super duper slut.  Of course, the obvious solution to this problem is to get a male friend to vouch for you.  Considering that a significant number of women who get abortions cite bad relationships as the reason, I suspect there would be a lot of falsified signatures, even though it’s forbidden by the bill.  Not that I think that the legislators particularly care, because at least they can rest assured that you’re getting extra punished by having to ask a male friend to help you, which is a big favor to ask.  (Every woman reading this is taking a quick mental inventory of what man they could trust to do this without gloating about his power over you.)

So yeah, I learned something.  I was curious if it was even possible to follow the letter of the law as written.  Imagine you could get the men you’ve slept with to submit to a blood test, and you choose to do this instead of lying. Could you paternity test a fetus?  Turns out that you can, from the 10th week on.  And, because you’re a horrible slutty slut, you’ll be pleased to know that the process is unpleasant and dare I say punishing? 

Guided by ultrasound, an OB-GYN uses a catheter through the vagina or a long, hollow needle through the abdomen (depending on the position of the fetus) to collect cells.

And almost surely expensive as fuck.


The bill sponsors are counting on their no-doubt sound belief that most people would sit in judgment of a woman who doesn’t know who got her pregnant, because everyone supposedly knows that it’s gross and disgusting and slutty and unforgiveable to have sex with two men within such a short period.  And I’ll bet that a solid percentage of the people who’d cast judgment have been involved in exactly that.  But they didn’t think of it that way!  It doesn’t count in their case.  It’s easily to mentally erase how you went out with this guy this week, and he didn’t call after you had sex, so you went out with someone else the next week and figured that it was okay because the other guy didn’t call.  Or you broke up with that asshole and found comfort in the arms of a friend.  Or you just didn’t realize that the two different guys were so close in time until after the fact.  I often am amused by asking people how many partners it takes to create a slut, but I also have to ask, what’s the official waiting period you owe the universe after sex with guy A before you’re permitted to have sex with guy B.  A month? Two months?  A year?  If so, why?  Do you owe the first one some kind of cosmic possession over your body, even if he was the one who chose to break it off?

Of course, my attitude about it is that no one owes anyone anything until they explicitly say so, and that if you want to be sleeping with more than one person at once, you’re well within your rights, and if any of them want to make it exclusive, they should speak up and let you decide.  Instead of just assuming that the cosmic rule that sluts are bad controls you. 

But I bring up these other examples, because I know that the first thing that people think of when they think of “don’t know who the father is” is a woman who’s carelessly catting around town, or cheating on a partner.  They go for the easiest women to judge, even though if it was one of their friends or relatives who was cheating or catting, they would see that punishing that woman with forced childbirth is beyond the pale.  Most people don’t think adultery should be illegal, but proposed laws like this are a way of making it just a little more illegal for women. 

It may be that I have a unique group of friends, but within my peer group (at least amongst people whose romantic histories I have any sort of knowledge of), I can’t say that I really know very many people that have gone their whole lives without having at two partners in a 30-day period.  And that includes people are adamantly non-cheaters and not particularly promiscuous.  It may not be a routine part of their lives, but it’s probably happened at least once.  And I tend to think that’s not even controversial anymore.  Sometimes you date someone for a little bit, and it doesn’t work out, but you’re not broken up about it, so you get right back on the horse.  Or you relationship-hopped, which isn’t particularly wrong, especially if you honorably break up with person A before moving onto person B.  Or you hook-up with your ex, and then a week later you meet your true love.  The permutations are endless, but I promise you that it’s not only possible but common for people who eschew having many irons in the fire to have two partners in a short period of time. 

Of course, the people who do enjoy having many irons in the fire at once, who others feel free to call sluts, are saints of sexual liberation that we should honor with big parties for their free-spiritedness, instead of calling them names.  But I just wanted point out that the stereotype that people immediately go to isn’t even close to the reality of the situation for most people. Not of course that this matters to a bunch of misogynist Republican Ohio legislators who’d probably also be shocked to hear women have orgasms, before moving to ban that as well.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:37 PM • (92) Comments

Do you owe the first one some kind of cosmic possession over your body, even if he was the one who chose to break it off?

Silly girl.  A female person is in possession of a male person until another male person takes possession.  She doesn’t have autonomy!  If she thinks she does, it’s only b/c she’s a slutty slut, and this law will help her by reminding her who her owner is.

Gilead here we come.

Comment #1: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/22  at  08:30 PM

A “slut” is a woman who’s had sex with one more partner than I have, no? 

I count myself amongst my many peers - gay and straight- who have sex with a whole buncha partners in x amount of time for the best reason of all: because we want to.

Comment #2: mir  on  07/22  at  08:43 PM

Guided by ultrasound, an OB-GYN uses a catheter through the vagina or a long, hollow needle through the abdomen (depending on the position of the fetus) to collect cells.

Just out of curiosity, what’s the miscarriage rate with this procedure?  I know there’s a relatively high risk of miscarriage with amniocentesis, which is why they don’t recommend it for women under 35 unless there’s a strong medical reason.  Because, damn, it would crack me up if the legislature managed to literally kill fetuses in the name of saving them.

Comment #3: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  08:46 PM

good old sidney ohio.  i’m from that general area and i can tell you that it was reactionary when i was there back in the day.  it doesn’t look like its gotten any better, perhaps worse in fact.

Comment #4: lawguy1946  on  07/22  at  08:46 PM

Well, I joke that it’s two more.  Because everyone likes to keep their options open for one more.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  08:46 PM

They can’t gather a sample from the fetus until 10 weeks? Then how long for the lab work to find out who the man is, and then how long to find him and convince him to sign, then schedule the procedure?  This bill would basically require that ALL abortions are second trimester at least.

I work for a clinic that does 1st trimester abortions and I can tell you that at least 85% of our patients are earlier than 10 weeks.  I mean, you miss your period in week 4, take a test in week 5, then pick up the phone and call to schedule your abortion during week 6.  Even if you take 2 weeks to think about it you are still scheduling for week 8 or 9.  We go up to 13 weeks and a couple days but it is rare to see someone who is really that far along.  It makes sense cause why would you wait?

Comment #6: GumbyAnne  on  07/22  at  08:49 PM

Mnemosyne, according to the same website Amanda links, risk of miscarriage from the method described here is two to four times higher than for amniocentesis (2% vs 0.25-0.5%).

So yeah.  You’re right.

Comment #7: snowmentality  on  07/22  at  08:54 PM

Ha, good point. Of course for some people I imagine it’s not the quantity of partners so much as the quality. If you have x number of partners in committed, monogamous, heading-toward-marriage hetero relationships that end for whatever reason/s, vs. the same number of partners in non-commited “relationships” of a few days or a few hours or 8 minutes and a couple shots of tequila, then you’re still relatively wholesome, I suppose.

Comment #8: mir  on  07/22  at  08:54 PM

I just love (by which I mean hate with a burning passion, of course) how the “but men should have choice <strike>too</strike> instead!” argument is extended here to include guys who have no fucking clue a woman they’ve slept with is pregnant.

I mean, if SHE doesn’t know who the father of her baby is, how are any of the guys she’s slept with supposed to know if they’re the supplier of the sperm used?  And thus, how are they supposed to be traumatized if a woman they don’t know is pregnant has an abortion?  She doesn’t know?  “No abortion for you, you irresponsible slut.”  He doesn’t know?  “Here, buddy, we might have enslaved a woman to make an unwanted baby in your name.”

And the presumed nonconsent means a guy can force a woman to continue a pregnancy through sheer laziness, or apathy, or being unavailable.  They don’t even have to go and get a court order or anything to force a woman to continue a pregnancy, they can do it by doing absolutely nothing!

Comment #9: Kyra  on  07/22  at  08:57 PM

The miscarriage risk is definitely there, but of course the point is to subject a woman who’s dared to have sex with more than one man to the maximum amount of humiliation and pain they can.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  08:57 PM

Just out of curiosity, what’s the miscarriage rate with this procedure?  I know there’s a relatively high risk of miscarriage with amniocentesis, which is why they don’t recommend it for women under 35 unless there’s a strong medical reason.  Because, damn, it would crack me up if the legislature managed to literally kill fetuses in the name of saving them.

I presume they are talking about chorionic villus sampling, which (depending on the study you’re looking at) has a miscarriage rate about the same as amnio (1%).

Comment #11: hp  on  07/22  at  09:01 PM

If I were an Ohio legislator I’d be having a whole lot of fun proposing amendments to this thing.

Like, say, one that says lack of consent to the procedure constitutes a legally binding agreement to pay child support—-and then one that makes the state government the guarantor or security for that promise, so if he doesn’t pay she still gets the money, and it’s the government’s problem, not hers, to get the money out of him.  And one that makes the government pay the child support in the cases where she doesn’t know who the father is (because if they want to make her continue the pregnancy in his name, they can provide child support in his name, too).

Et cetera.

Of course, this doesn’t solve the actual problem, but it’d be hilarious to watch its sponsors’ heads explode.

Comment #12: Kyra  on  07/22  at  09:05 PM

That’s an awesome idea, Kyra.  I’d also amend it to say that men who refuse to consent should be required to get a vasectomy, for a couple reasons.  First of all, they’ve signed onto the idea that the their reproductive systems aren’t their own, and also they’ve demonstrated they can’t be trusted not to knock women up accidentally, which justifies it.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  09:09 PM

Completely off-topic, but what the hell is going on in that photo?

Comment #14: schism  on  07/22  at  09:10 PM

Bed-hopping!

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  09:16 PM

Sainthood, huh?  But if I get a party out of it…

Comment #16: rowmyboat  on  07/22  at  09:20 PM

I actually had a friend who got pregnant and wasn’t sure which of her friends was the lucky guy. She decided to continue the pregnancy, and I remember a paternity test in utero being discussed, but it was, as Amanda said, expensive as fuck. Also, the nearest place that performed that procedure was an hour and a half away. They chose the “wait and see who it looks like” method…

Comment #17: wednesdayaddams  on  07/22  at  09:26 PM

Who should I contact in Ohio to lobby to introduce some amendments to this bill? Cuz I’d like to propose the following:

Where the woman and the man are not married / not cohabiting.

1. If the man refuses to consent to the woman’s desire to abort the pregnancy, the man will be required to:

a. Mimic the woman’s doctor-prescribed health recommendations. For example, if the woman’s doctor puts the woman on bedrest, the man shall be on “non-consent bedrest” as well - he cannot work, recreate, or leave his residence under the same restrictions as the woman. He shall be monitored by means of an ankle bracelet and should he be found in violation of “doctor’s orders,” he shall suffer an immediate fine equal to one day’s pay for every day of violation, payable to the state’s adoption agency.

b. Pay all of the woman’s out-of-pocket medical expenses during the time of the non-consensual pregnancy, as well as for subsequent medical expenses for any post-birth related complications the birth mother may suffer.

c. Reimburse the birth-mother’s employer and insurer for their costs relating to the non-consensual pregnancy, as well as for their costs relating to subsequent medical expenses for any post-birth related complications the birth mother may suffer.

d. Take immediate legal and physical custody of the child on the birth of the child.

2. The birth mother is absolved of any and all child support obligations immediately on birth of the child.

—————

Well, it’s just a start, and I’m sure I’ve left out many things. Plus, I could go on with another series of amendments where the parties are married, but it’s time for dinner…

Comment #18: teac  on  07/22  at  09:34 PM

Or what Kyra said.

Comment #19: teac  on  07/22  at  09:35 PM

“Here, buddy, we might have enslaved a woman to make an unwanted baby in your name.”

Just wait until the child support lawsuits begin.  Of course, those will also be the fault of the slutty slut sluts who had the bad taste to sleep with these guys and not the fault of the state that decided they should have to carry to term no matter what.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  09:38 PM

OT, but I nearly had to pull over this morning when hearing news reports re: the 20 Dem senators sending a letter to President Obama stating that they are “concerned” that the new health care reform will allow abortions to be paid for by the government-run option.

My question is, if these people are so concerned about this (and I mean the “constituents” who make it a big issue every time they breathe), why are they not protesting the numerous health insurance companies who include this in their coverage? Same with the senators - surely they have contacts with the insurance companies - why don’t they tell the insurance companies to stop covering abortions?

Meh.

Comment #21: shartheheretic  on  07/22  at  09:56 PM

this law is so nuts on so many levels you can’t even go into them all. ugh.

Comment #22: t-ster  on  07/22  at  10:04 PM

Oh, please. This case is over thirty years old. Planned Parenthood v. Danforth, you cannot require the consent of the spouse or any other non-parental entity.

Comment #23: Rebecca  on  07/22  at  10:06 PM

(to clarify: the “oh, please” directed at the Ohio representative, not you lovely people)

Comment #24: Rebecca  on  07/22  at  10:06 PM

I just love (by which I mean hate with a burning passion, of course) how the “but men should have choice too instead!” argument is extended here to include guys who have no fucking clue a woman they’ve slept with is pregnant.

Next step:  Make it possible for the biological father to force the woman he impregnated to have an abortion.  Let’s see how many pro-“lifers” approve of that.

Comment #25: keshmeshi  on  07/22  at  10:08 PM

because at least they can rest assured that you’re getting extra punished by having to ask a male friend to help you, which is a big favor to ask.  (Every woman reading this is taking a quick mental inventory of what man they could trust to do this without gloating about his power over you.)

Speaking from the other side of the Y chromosome, this should have men annoyed as well, because what happens if someone agrees to do it as a favour, she changes her mind, and now he’s got his signature on a legal document where he claims to be the father?  I know some women I’d do that favour for in a heartbeat, but there are a few I know that, quite frankly, I have enough doubt about that I wouldn’t want to be involved in the situation (and not necessarily because of themselves, but the pressure I know they’d be under from family and religious types not to abort).

That’s what I don’t understand about these non-celibate men who insist on sticking their noses into a woman’s decision.  A few decades ago you could fuck ‘em and forget ‘em and probably get away with it, but now you can find out, with pretty good certainty, who Jane or Johnny’s daddy is, and that’s something you know will bite the “well-meaning” moral crusader in the ass.

Comment #26: KeithM  on  07/22  at  10:09 PM

also: that photo is really neat. do you know who took it, or where it comes from?

Comment #27: t-ster  on  07/22  at  10:10 PM

In addition to miscarriage, CVS and amnio both have reported, IIRC anomalous rates of what are politely referred to as “limb reduction defects”. But mostly this would push all of your abortions into the second trimester, because the state would no doubt appoint a guardian ad litem for the embryo to challenge the paternity in every case, just because you know that women who want abortions are slutty sluts, even if they’ve been married for 20 years and both agree they don’t want another (or any) kid.

Maybe it’s the sample clinics pushing this…

Comment #28: paul  on  07/22  at  10:10 PM

<blockquote.Considering that a significant number of women who get abortions cite bad relationships as the reason, I suspect there would be a lot of falsified signatures, even though it’s forbidden by the bill.</blockquote>

Investigating whether the signature on an abortion-consent form is valid, and arresting and trying those who falsify it!

Smell the small government!

Comment #29: RickMassimo  on  07/22  at  10:29 PM

But imagine the stud points you’d get from being the go-to guy for signing consent forms…

Comment #30: paul  on  07/22  at  10:41 PM

There’s an easy way to nip this shit in the bud.  Every woman seeking an abortion should identify the bill’s sponsor, Rep. John Adams, as a potential babydaddy. He then will have to spend countless hours providing samples for thousands of paternity tests, thereby preventing him from introducing more idiotic pieces of legislation.

Maybe they can get a paternity test discount from the Maury Show?

Comment #31: CParis  on  07/22  at  10:46 PM

If you have x number of partners in committed, monogamous, heading-toward-marriage hetero relationships that end for whatever reason/s, vs. the same number of partners in non-commited “relationships” of a few days or a few hours or 8 minutes and a couple shots of tequila, then you’re still relatively wholesome, I suppose.
mir on 07/22 at 07:54 PM

Isn’t that why Liz Taylor married all those guys instead of just bedding them?

Comment #32: phylosopher  on  07/22  at  11:14 PM

Isn’t that why Liz Taylor married all those guys instead of just bedding them?

Yep.  She always says that she never had sex with a man she wasn’t married to, and though I suspect her definition of “married to” includes “eventually married,” I wouldn’t be surprised since she’s been married 8 times to 7 guys.

Orson Welles always said his first marriage happened because they wanted to be able to stay at hotels together without having the house detective bust down the door.

Comment #33: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  11:23 PM

Oh goody, does this mean that I get to decide about some random man’s treatment options for prostate cancer?  Fair is fair.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  07/22  at  11:28 PM

There is one simple amendment:

IF the male contributor to the pregnancy wishes to have that pregnancy continue, the gamete will be transferred to his abdomen such that it may implant on his liver and he may carry the pregnancy to term himself, at his own expense.

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  07/22  at  11:38 PM

Father of a fetus?  So ... if they use that language, any pregnancy aborted prior to, um, the end of the embryonic period is therefore exempt.

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  07/22  at  11:40 PM

expensive as fuck
No, destined to make each fucking very expensive!

Comment #37: lostmypassword  on  07/22  at  11:45 PM

IF the male contributor to the pregnancy wishes to have that pregnancy continue, the gamete will be transferred to his abdomen such that it may implant on his liver and he may carry the pregnancy to term himself, at his own expense.

It’s a deal IF you’ll introduce me to Airborne Bra & Panties Girl…

Comment #38: Sour Kraut  on  07/22  at  11:55 PM

Of course, the people who do enjoy having many irons in the fire at once, who others feel free to call sluts, are saints of sexual liberation that we should honor with big parties for their free-spiritedness, instead of calling them names.

I’m sure (or at least hope) this is somewhat tongue in cheek, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds some measure of hypocrisy in the criticism of “the quick to judge” (I recall seeing a discussion of “enlightened heathenism” vs. more restrained stoicism here).  Here and in previous writings, there’s an undercurrent of judgementalism towards those more sexually conservative than yourself, including some implicit “othering” in your claim that you don’t believe you have any friends who haven’t had sex with multiple people in the same month.  I could count on one hand the number of friends I have who would fit that category, yet run among a very secular, live-and-let live crowd.

Simply having a preference for sex exclusively within established romantic relationships doesn’t mean someone’s necessarily looking down at all of those who are more sexually open, though I’ll admit it often does accompany some sanctimony and/or religiosity.  Making assumptions and “othering” less sexual individuals does a great disservice to those who want true respect for everyone’s bodily autonomy, and creates tension where there doesn’t need to be.  I’ll continue to stand for the right to have sex free of state-imposed consequences, but I’d feel more comfortable in that fight if I didn’t sense so much condescension from others in that cause.

Comment #39: HummingbirdSaltalamacchia  on  07/22  at  11:55 PM

... hedonism, not heathenism.  Damn, got so into my rant that I screwed it up.

Comment #40: HummingbirdSaltalamacchia  on  07/23  at  12:01 AM

(Every woman reading this is taking a quick mental inventory of what man they could trust to do this without gloating about his power over you.)

and every man is making a quick list of how many women they actually trust enough to sign a legal document claiming fatherhood of a fetus. Even barring the whole MRA “She might change her mind and then I’d have to pay child support because women are evil, crafty bitches who just want money” there’s a whole host of legal obligations that jump in. I wouldn’t be surprised if this whole thing attached some kind of crazy financial obligation to any signing man, just to stick one more layer of bullshit in place.

Helping someone with medical treatment, even in a capacity of just making sure they don’t fall asleep within 5 hours of a surgery and sitting in the waiting room during the procedure, is kind of a big deal.

Comment #41: karpad  on  07/23  at  12:02 AM

Read it and weep (emphasis mine):

(B)(1) When the fetus that is the subject of the procedure is viable, no person shall perform or induce an abortion on a pregnant woman without the written informed consent of the father of the fetus.

  (2) When the fetus that is the subject of the procedure is not viable, no person shall perform or induce an abortion on a pregnant woman without the written informed consent of the father of the fetus.

Comment #42: ema  on  07/23  at  12:05 AM

(2) When the fetus that is the subject of the procedure is not viable, no person shall perform or induce an abortion on a pregnant woman without the written informed consent of the father of the fetus.

WHAT THE HOLY SLAGGING FUCKING FUCK?!!!!!

(Also, why the doublespeak—-I don’t see any change in the “in that case, X” half of the second part that would necessitate the second verse.)

(I’d ask what the hell was the POINT, “saving” a nonviable fetus, but the antichoice movement being what it is, I am doubtless doomed to be disappointed.  Although the temptation exists to ask, simply because I want to see the look on his face when I suggest he’s implied that most reasonable men would appreciate being able to force a woman to die of sepsis from a fetus rotting inside her simply by doing nothing at all.)

Gyahhh. 

Right-Wing Politicians: bringing new meaning to “asshole” since the first man said “WAAAAAHHHH!”

Comment #43: Kyra  on  07/23  at  12:36 AM

We’re being trolled by members of the Ohio Legislature!  They know it’s unconstitutional—the Supreme Court already decided that issue long ago—so why not make it as outrageous as possible, and stir up controversy?  smile

Comment #44: rea  on  07/23  at  12:37 AM

Sounds like a convenient way to commit murder by dissenting to a medically necessary abortion.

Comment #45: Ms Kate  on  07/23  at  12:41 AM

Ms Kate, I hadn’t thought of it in that light but that’s a sound observation.

Comment #46: teac  on  07/23  at  12:51 AM

Are the fuckers pushing this idea of a state mandated procedure that would endanger the health and life of a fetus and a woman the same fuckers who say they’re against the state mandating controlling health care and making people have medical procedures against their will? Those fuckers?  Well, I say fuck them.  And all the fucking horses they all fucking rode in on.  And fucked they will be.

Comment #47: digitusmedius  on  07/23  at  01:05 AM

This is already the law over here in sunny Japan.  You need “the father” to give you permission.  This can usually mean roping a male friend into helping you out, though.  As far as I know, that’s good enough.  HOWEVER, if you’re just getting a random guy to help you out to avoid letting the father know, you’re going to be financially fucked, since abortions START (that means, at the early stage) at about $1000.

The serious irony is that usually, if the father thinks he can support you and the baby, you won’t get permission.  But if he can’t, somehow he can afford to plunk down $600 or more for his share of the abortion.  Go figure. 

Abortion is really common here, but that’s because guys don’t like condom, girls don’t like the pill, and sex is often unavoidable (you can suss out what that means).  On the other hand, I see more and more news stories where very young parents abuse and kill their children because they’re very obviously not ready for that responsibility.  It’s incredibly unusual to see parents who are 18-23, but these stories ALWAYS involve parents who are in that range. 

In the US we already have stupid rules about notifying your parents and all that shit.  I don’t remember if some states require parental permission.  But to ask adult women to gain permission from some guy who has the power to veto her abortion?  I can just imagine the bad situations that will result from this.

Comment #48: BonAppetit  on  07/23  at  01:12 AM

But to ask adult women to gain permission from some guy who has the power to veto her abortion?  I can just imagine the bad situations that will result from this.

I’m pretty sure I’ve already seen fictional versions of it (as it probably has already happened in real life): guy rapes a woman, and he’s the type of rapist who does it as “punishment”, either to her specifically or women in general.  And then he refuses to agree to an abortion because hey, more punishment, right?  And since he’s in prison, it’s not like she can get child support.

Comment #49: KeithM  on  07/23  at  01:45 AM

Haven’t there been studies that a woman is more likely to have more than one partner when their FSH levels are maxed out shortly before ovulation? My gf certainly fees the urge mid-cycle. We rely on a spermicide/sometimes condoms/rythm method. Mid-cycle horniness gets the spermicide/condom treatment, or sometimes just dispensing with all that and going all out with toys, vibes, oral, and various non-procreative penetrations.

In any case, abortion should be the decision of the mother with no interventions or restrictions. What could be clearer than that?

Comment #50: Bacopa  on  07/23  at  02:02 AM

Can we sue these suckers for wasting our time and money passing laws which are already unconstitutional?

Comment #51: Crissa  on  07/23  at  02:28 AM

Every woman seeking an abortion should identify the bill’s sponsor, Rep. John Adams, as a potential babydaddy.

CParis, I’m surprised no one has yet complimented you on your sheer genius.

I think I should move to Ohio and get myself knocked up for this specific purpose. Right now, I have neither husband nor children, so my life obviously has no meaning.

This would give my life…a shape!

Comment #52: hamletta  on  07/23  at  03:00 AM

Snore, hummingbird. My refusal to call you better than everyone else might sting, but that’s because you obviously feel you are. Sorry if equality isn’t enough. By the way, I’m in a monogamous relationship myself.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  03:05 AM

. . . they would see that punishing that woman with forced childbirth is beyond the pale.

And using children as a form of punishment—for anything—approaches evil in the Stephen King sense of the word.  But Adams doesn’t make any bones about it.

Adams told the newspaper that, in cases when the mother does not know the identity of the father, the abortion would be prohibited. “There needs to be responsibility for actions,” Adams said. ” . . .  there is merit to chastity, and to young men and women waiting until marriage.”

Yeah, Adams, I’m sure you waited—just as I’m sure monkeys are about to fly out of your ass.

And five bucks says that if you asked him about health care reform, he’d tell you how much he opposes government getting between patients and doctors.

Comment #54: Molly, NYC  on  07/23  at  04:27 AM

But if he can’t, somehow he can afford to plunk down $600 or more for his share of the abortion.

Not a Japan-specific issue, sadly, but their fair “share” is the full entire cost of the abortion, unless they’re proposing to balance out their “share” of the money with their share of the surgery.

Just the bare idea that some asshole would think it’s fair to pay half the cost when the woman’s paying all the pain and suffering is fucking mind-blowing. It’s not actually possible for a man to pay equally for an abortion; doing the easy fraction of it (the money) is the very, very least he can do. Jesus.

Comment #55: sophonisba  on  07/23  at  04:50 AM

My friend’s mother was kidnapped and repeatedly raped.  She was “rescued” by a friend and spent the next while at his house.  She became pregnant, carried the pregnancy to term, and the resulting child was adopted.  Just a comment to say that, while there’s nothing wrong with being a huge slut like me, even people who aren’t can be raped etc.  Imagine someone getting pregnant after a gang-rape in a state with this law.

Comment #56: Dr. Confused  on  07/23  at  05:36 AM

also: that photo is really neat. do you know who took it, or where it comes from?

Teac, it looks to me like it must be a screencap from the UK Big Brother, which airs on Channel 4 and their cable buddy E4, judging by the E4 emblem in the corner.  Dunno which series though (they’re up to about 10 or so now).

Comment #57: Katherine  on  07/23  at  05:53 AM

Sorry, that was to t-ster, not teac.

Comment #58: Katherine  on  07/23  at  05:53 AM

Not to defend these loons at all, but you should note that “viable” in this context means:

“the stage of development of a human fetus at which there is a realistic possibility of maintaining and nourishing of a life outside the womb with or without temporary artificial life-sustaining support.”

See Ohio Rev Code 2901.01.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901

So, it’s not a matter of forcing women tocarry dead fetuses to term.

Comment #59: rea  on  07/23  at  07:39 AM

Just the bare idea that some asshole would think it’s fair to pay half the cost when the woman’s paying all the pain and suffering is fucking mind-blowing. It’s not actually possible for a man to pay equally for an abortion; doing the easy fraction of it (the money) is the very, very least he can do. Jesus.

I’ll wait till Miss Manners chimes in on that.  As it stands, I’d rather play the “I actually have to go through with it” card in exchange for the final say on whether or not the procedure happens - that should be a given, I know, but look what thread we’re on.  I would have no problems paying for half the procedure, and I don’t think I’ve ever had sex with a guy who wouldn’t pay his share if it ever happened, but as a society we’re far from the point where going or not going Dutch is the big deal in the abortion debate.

Comment #60: Kyso K  on  07/23  at  07:49 AM

rea,

The bill clearly states that viability is irrelevant; the patient needs the father’s consent in any and all circumstances (except rape and incest, when she needs a note from the police or the court AND the physician’s OK that the note represents reasonable cause to believe that the woman became pregnant as the result of rape or incest, or when the procedure is needed to preserve the life or the health of the pregnant woman).

Comment #61: ema  on  07/23  at  08:18 AM

ema, presumably the court will decide that it’s rape when there’s a conviction? Because of course no-one could take a slutty woman’s word for it. Why, she’s had sex! So she must be a liar, too.

Comment #62: Nineveh  on  07/23  at  08:29 AM

Yeah, it’s a screenshot from Big Brother.  I liked it because I thought it was goofy.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  09:22 AM

So, I think we ought to increase the amendments as well.  If a woman is pregnant and decides to keep the baby, she still has to declare who the father is before she can have any prenatal care.

Like our fucking parental notification law—if you have to notify if you decide to have an abortion, you should have to notify if you decide to keep it—that’s a bigger responsibility anyway.

Or, you know, we could just decide that women are human beings with the right of bodily autonomy.

———

I’m also sick to death of men whining about wanting a choice about whether a woman decides to keep or abort a baby.

Men, your choice really is before you have sex.  You cannot gestate.  You require another willing, consenting person to gestate your offspring.  So you need to think about having a child every time you have sex.  You cannot enslave a woman after the fact.


Women do.


Women do.

Comment #64: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/23  at  09:26 AM

“ema, presumably the court will decide that it’s rape when there’s a conviction? Because of course no-one could take a slutty woman’s word for it.”

I’m sure if she can present at leat four male witnesses to the rape, at least one of whom is a relative, the court would be happy to determine she was raped.  Otherwise she’s just a dirty slut and deserves <strike>death</strike> to be forced to give birth.

Of course, if she’d been wearing <strike>the burqha</strike> nice modest clothing she wouldn’t have had her virtue attacked in the first place…

Comment #65: MikeEss  on  07/23  at  09:29 AM

Just the bare idea that some asshole would think it’s fair to pay half the cost when the woman’s paying all the pain and suffering is fucking mind-blowing. It’s not actually possible for a man to pay equally for an abortion; doing the easy fraction of it (the money) is the very, very least he can do.

This is where MRAs and Libertarian ideologues overlap in the Venn diagram of wingnut-ism. For the latter, everything (and I mean everything) is boiled down to an economic transaction, as opposed to actual libertarians who consider social autonomy as something more than “nice to have but beside the point.” It’s the same reason that these creeps are so comfortable with the idea of forced gestation: “that [whore|maddona] entered into an implicit contract by having with me, goddammit, and she’s gonna fulfill on delivering my property! And since the sole legitimate domestic function of the (eeeeevil! socialist!) state is to enforce contracts, I get to ask it to help me!”

It’s a sad fact that, even if you forced these guys to walk around for 3 months with a small bowling ball strapped around their stomachs, and then forced them to pass a golf ball through their urethras, some of them would still hew to the gospels of Rand and Friedman.

Comment #66: Gracchus.  on  07/23  at  09:55 AM

The reason that abortion is not a man’s choice is because the fetus isn’t growing inside his body!  This isn’t about ownership of a fetus, it’s about ownership of the body that it’s in.  Men certainly have every right to prevent something from growing inside their body, and they also have the right to allow something to grow inside their body.  Once the fetus is inside their body, then they can choose.  If they’re so concerned about fetuses, they should spend their time and effort creating a way for men to become surrogates for fetuses, rather than wasting their time trying to force women to suffer for their benefit.

Comment #67: bananacat  on  07/23  at  10:16 AM

Of course, the people who do enjoy having many irons in the fire at once, who others feel free to call sluts, are saints of sexual liberation that we should honor with big parties for their free-spiritedness, instead of calling them names.

Thank you for the party, but I’d rather not be called a saint.  The last thing I want to think about during sex is the Catholic church.

Comment #68: bananacat  on  07/23  at  10:18 AM

I’ve grown very attached to men’s turds.  I would like legislation passed that allows me to tell men if and when they can take a dump.  If I don’t consent, they have to hold it in.  If I do, they’re allowed a poo, but I get to tell them how much they’re allowed to eliminate.

Fair’s fair, right?

Comment #69: speedbudget  on  07/23  at  11:03 AM

The last thing I want to think about during sex is the Catholic church.

Oh. I’ll leave the nun costumes and crucifix dildos home then…

As a man though, I find that when I’m on the verge and my partner is still a bit away from climax, thinking of the Popa Ratzi looking at what I’m doing disapprovingly helps with keeping going longer…

Comment #70: BlackBloc  on  07/23  at  11:49 AM

“As a man though, I find that when I’m on the verge and my partner is still a bit away from climax, thinking of the Popa Ratzi looking at what I’m doing disapprovingly helps with keeping going longer… “

Have I got the condom for you, then.

Comment #71: preying mantis  on  07/23  at  12:00 PM

Damn it, messed up the link.

Comment #72: preying mantis  on  07/23  at  12:01 PM

Of course, the people who do enjoy having many irons in the fire at once, who others feel free to call sluts, are saints of sexual liberation that we should honor with big parties for their free-spiritedness, instead of calling them names.

Amanda, I must say I really am impressed by how much this comment disarmed the usual “my lifestyle’s better than your lifestyle” comment wars that pop up when you talk about things like monogomy and sex. It really goes to show that levity here and there helps, not hinders, serious discussions.

Comment #73: HonestB  on  07/23  at  12:10 PM

Have I got the condom for you, then.

Unfortunatly, seeing this sight right as I’m attempting to maintain an erection to put on a condom is not exactly helping…

The timing of the ‘cold shower’ benefit of this item is slightly off.

Comment #74: BlackBloc  on  07/23  at  12:54 PM

The last thing I want to think about during sex is the Catholic church.

I take it you’re not the market for the sexy nun costumes, then?

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  01:17 PM

Amanda, I must say I really am impressed by how much this comment disarmed the usual “my lifestyle’s better than your lifestyle” comment wars that pop up when you talk about things like monogomy and sex.

Which always crack me up, because people have to erect the straw Amanda in order to squawk about her.  I’m really quite boring, with my monogamous relationship and our habit of whiling away our time playing video games and watching our favorite TV shows obsessively.  One thing blogging has shown me is how easy feathers are to ruffle, how insecure people really can be about their choices.  I don’t think being monogamous is wrong.  I think that our culture that prizes it as morally superior, and people who lean on that to feel better about themselves are wrong.  It takes a lot of bravery to buck social expectations and a lot of courage to question sacred cows, and that this is true doesn’t make us boring monogamous people bad people.

Comment #76: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  01:21 PM

My girlfriend’s lover is visiting early next week.

I guess I’ll just have to be non-boring non-monogamous for both of us, Amanda. I’ll begrudgingly take that responsability on myself.

Comment #77: BlackBloc  on  07/23  at  01:35 PM

(The funniest part of this statement is that I’m probably a boring non-monogamous person. My idea of a nice weekend is to play a miniatures tournament and bring back 1000$ in prizes, or watching the Watchmen Director’s Cut.)

Comment #78: BlackBloc  on  07/23  at  01:36 PM

One thing you’re not considering is that these types of laws, in addition to their inherent misogyny, often have an underlying/coded racist intent, i.e. it’s not just that slutty-slut women need to be punished for their sluttiness, but in many of the (white, male) lawmakers’ minds the slutty woman they’re envisioning punishing is one of those “welfare queens” (read “black single woman”) who sleep around w/o thought of consequences (or sometimes expressly for the purpose of getting a bigger welfare check from the additional child) and fuck/breed like animals. I can’t say anything about the particulars of this specific bill or the lawmakers involved, but I do know from firsthand experience that Ohio has more than its fair share of ignorant racists, and “teaching those darkies a lesson” ranks pretty high on their list of priorities. And this bill has the added benefit of “forcing” the father to “own up to his responsibilities.”

Comment #79: Geocrackr  on  07/23  at  01:52 PM

Men, your choice really is before you have sex.

Very true.  Just don’t have sex, and nobody gets pregnant.  Simple.

Comment #80: liberalrob  on  07/23  at  02:02 PM

And the presumed nonconsent means a guy can force a woman to continue a pregnancy through sheer laziness, or apathy, or being unavailable.  They don’t even have to go and get a court order or anything to force a woman to continue a pregnancy, they can do it by doing absolutely nothing!

Yes.  I could at least see an argument for a situation where the guy’s like “I really want us to have this baby.  Here’s money to pay for the pregnancy, and here’s my employment information so the court can garnish my wages for child support.”  I still think it’s bullshit, but at least the guy is forced to take responsibility.

In this instance, the guy just has to deny being the father and make himself unavailable for DNA testing, or fight any sort of court order.  Speaking as a guy, any thought of giving a guy a say in the matter has to be coupled with responsibility for the pregnancy and child.  That responsibility makes it the difference between “Get lost, I’m not signing shit!” as a veto and “I want to have this baby with you” as a veto.

As a “bonus”, the 2007 law’s rape provision required a police report.  Which means that if this law actually does pass, there will no doubt be a rise in the (currently low) false reporting rate for that crime.  I doubt it will lead to guys going to jail, but it’ll certainly waste police time.

Comment #81: ZachPruckowski  on  07/23  at  02:04 PM

One thing blogging has shown me is how easy feathers are to ruffle, how insecure people really can be about their choices.

One of the hardest thing about actually being an adult is understanding the difference between “Wrong” and “Wrong for Me.”

Comment #82: cynickal  on  07/23  at  02:05 PM

Reading the text of the 2007 bill, there’s a provision that says that the DNA testing resulting from the bill would be confidential and inadmissible in a paternity suit.  So not only does it not require a man to “own up” to being the father, even if the women gets the DNA test, and the man makes her take it to term, she’s got to start the whole paternity process from scratch when looking for child support.  There’s also a giant loophole in that if the woman only names one potential father, he can deny being the father (implicitly denying her the abortion), and the law doesn’t mandate a DNA test.

Comment #83: ZachPruckowski  on  07/23  at  02:19 PM

you’ll be pleased to know that the process is unpleasant and dare I say punishing?

Anything involving big long needles through the belly or tubes being stuck into orifices equates to torture, in my mind.  Ick.  But I’m sure these legislators never thought of that.  Or at least, they don’t when thinking about how neato it would be to be able to accurately determine paternity.  Science is Buck Rogers to these guys, all clean and painless and 100% accurate, magic that can be used for good as well as evil.  And yet they have no problem empathizing with “fetal pain” when arguing against abortion.  Their capacity for empathy is highly selective, as are their morals and ethics.

The conscious intent was probably more to enforce “personal responsibility” on men by making them liable for child support if they get a woman pregnant; but that’s just not enough benefit to justify all the rest of the bullshit that goes along with their bill.  Just because waterboarding may result in good information once in a while doesn’t make it right to waterboard everyone, and just because determining paternity might once in a while result in a father stepping up doesn’t make it right to put women through all this.  Also, Good God.  Big-ass needle through the belly, guys!  Hurts!  Crimeny!

Comment #84: liberalrob  on  07/23  at  02:19 PM

Yeah, it actually is nontrivial.

Comment #85: Punditus Maximus  on  07/23  at  02:25 PM

and of course no one makes a better mother than a slutty slut who doesn’t know who the father is.

Comment #86: somegirl  on  07/23  at  04:05 PM

The conscious intent was probably more to enforce “personal responsibility” on men by making them liable for child support if they get a woman pregnant

I disagree.  Consider ZachPruckowski’s comment where he points out that paternity determined during the pregnancy will be confidential and won’t count toward child-support hearings.  I think this is simply a case where some men think that they own the fetus, and they don’t like it that someone else gets to make the choice about whether or not the pregnancy continues.  This really ties into their belief that women don’t really like sex, and that sex is something women do for or give to men, after they’ve performed the proper rituals to be entitled to it.  I can see these guys thinking of a married couple where the husband wants kids and the woman doesn’t want them or is ambivalent, and the man feels entitled to impregnate his wife and use her body to make his kid.  So he coaxes and tricks and pleads with her to have sex without protection until she gets pregnant, and then he he gets mad that he has gone through so much work to get her pregnant and she can still ruin it for him.

Comment #87: bananacat  on  07/23  at  04:58 PM

I highly doubt the Ohio legislature wingnuts consulted ZachPruckowski on the appropriateness of their legislation before proposing it (and if they were aware of Danforth as mentioned by Rebecca, are hoping to take a shot at overturning or limiting it with this conservative Supreme Court).  I think they probably just saw or heard somewhere that there was this whiz-bang new paternity test, thought “aha, now we can track down the deadbeat fathers and bribe/coerce them into forcing the women they got pregnant into having the babies, since we’re having a hard time browbeating the women into doing it.”  They saw this new angle in attacking abortion by getting the father to assert his “rights,” and went for it. 

It’s not really about legally establishing paternity.  It’s about setting up a catch-22 where if you find the father you can get him to forbid the abortion, and if you can’t find the father (because maybe you don’t want to have a foot-long needle shoved in your belly) you flat-out forbid the abortion.  It’s about taking away the woman’s right to choose.

Comment #88: liberalrob  on  07/23  at  05:45 PM

liberalrob:

I think the point of disagreement is whether the “responsibility” angle played any role in the decision to craft this atrocity whatsoever. In other words, “enforcing personal responsibility” and weeding out deadbeat dads is actually a laudable motivation if that were in fact accurate. I’m not sure I would extend the benefit of the doubt that these people had any positive motivations in mind at all. I don’t think whether ZachPruckowski being consulted has anything to do with it; ZachPruckowski merely pointed out that the bill contains language that specifically makes it LESS likely that deadbeat dads would be held to their responsibilities, not more so, which makes it extremely unlikely that a desire to enforce male responsibility for pregnancies the mother chooses to keep had any bearing on the way they drafted this bill.

Comment #89: Epsilon82  on  07/23  at  06:24 PM

When a woman gets into a medical crisis rendering her unconscious (like a car accident, for instance) and is in need of immediate and critical medical care that might involve abortion incidentally (like, say, the steering wheel punctured her uterus!), and there’s no fucking document on her stating who the father is and how to get in contact with him—

—will the Ohio leg. be put on trial for homicide? Because she’s gonna die because of them.

***

Hummingbird, if it isn’t about us, it isn’t about us. I take the threads about hook ups, or the ones bashing young marriage non-personally. I’m sure I’m an out-lier on any chart of relationships. I would not even advise other people to follow my lead, although I’m happy. What’s right for me is unlikely to be right for many others.

Comment #90: Samantha Vimes  on  07/23  at  08:45 PM

ZachPruckowski: There’s also a giant loophole in that if the woman only names one potential father, he can deny being the father (implicitly denying her the abortion), and the law doesn’t mandate a DNA test.

That’s why in addition to naming the bill’s sponsor Rep Adams as a potential babydaddy, a woman should also name all 15 of the bills co-sponsors.  You know, just to be safe.

Comment #91: CParis  on  07/23  at  09:40 PM

OMG WHAT ABOUT TEH SPERM DONORZ?!?!?!*

*Serious question: if she’s married and it’s not the husband’s, who signs off? And if she’s single/has a female partner and used a sperm donor?

Comment #92: Rebecca  on  07/25  at  12:05 PM
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