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Next entry: Ruminations on a week and a half in Europe Previous entry: Thanks for this, Obama

Fact is, people have no idea what’s even going on

Back from Europe, broke and tired, but super glad to be home.  Anything important happen while I was gone? 

Just kidding!  While I didn’t have time to write, I was able to follow some of the stuff going on back home, and was disappointed to find that there was a flare-up of feminism-related stuff that just so happened to rise up while I was on vacation.  Unsurprisingly, Ross Douthat got to work right away at his new gig at the NY Times by writing columns based on the assumption that women aren’t human beingsQuoth the Douchebag:

The pro-life movement is arguably more comfortable with the language of rights and liberties than its opponents. Abortion foes are defending a right to life grounded in the Declaration of Independence, after all, whereas pro-choicers are defending more nebulous rights (privacy, autonomy, etc.) supposedly grounded in “penumbras” and “emanations” from the Constitution.

This only makes sense if you assume that it’s stupid and foolish to assume that women are human beings with rights.  Sure, he tries to evade that by making fun of the existence of the entire profession of judging, on the grounds that judges come up with arguments too complicated for the wee brains of anti-choice nuts, which I suppose is true enough but says more about nuts than the weakness of the decisions.  But his argument is the same one you always hear—-sperm and fetuses have rights, but women don’t.  Women can be safely regarded as breeding machines instead of people with the basic right not to be forced to give birth against their will.  Also, women aren’t people, so we don’t need to concern ourselves with making sure they have the same right enjoyed by men to have a sexuality and medical care at the same time.


Frankly, there’s little doubt in my mind that weenies like Ross Douthat only think they’re more moral on these issues because they’re bigger prudes.  Why else would he link gay rights with abortion, if the sole and only reason (amen) that anti-choicers are against abortion is BAYBEEZ?  That’s nonsense.  It is and always has been about Teh Sexx.  And a bunch of fags and bitches who do it without Douthat personally signing off on it, not that he would.

In other news that’s even more infuriating than the fact the the NY Times is willing to run editorials based on the assumption that women aren’t full human beings is this: Gallup released a poll showing that a majority of Americans call themselves “pro-life”, which is of course going to grist for the misogynist mill from here until the end of time, even if other polls in the future show a trend in the opposite direction. 

The problem with the poll is a simple one: People have no fucking clue that “pro-life” means “wants to ban abortion and at least the most popular forms of pregnancy prevention, if not all kinds of contraception”.  Even on just the abortion issue, the polling data shows this—-51% of Americans say they’re “pro-life”, but 53% of Americans want abortion to be legal in some cases.  And even that question tends to be confusing for people, because what does “some” mean?  People tend to ground the issue of abortion in their own personal judgments about who’s a dirty slut and who’s a good, deserving woman, and they aren’t considering that the law doesn’t really have a great metric for measuring sluttiness.  Also, the anti-choice movement has been able to install the lie about “abortion until birth” as a legal right, exploiting the fact that a) that doesn’t happen, no matter how much anti-choice nuts prefer to believe a full term pregnancy is 25 weeks* and b) abortions done at half term or even slightly later are all medically indicated, and are exactly the sort of therapeutic abortions that even squishy people who are semi-forced childbirth would support.

All the polling data reasonably measures is people’s prejudices about female sexuality, not really their stance on actual policy.  In a sense, it’s sort of amazing that as many Americans call themselves “pro-choice” as Gallup measured, because decades of anti-feminist rhetoric has made that word nearly as dirty as “feminist”.  With all the recent resurgence in sexual prudery (coupled of course with the exact same amounts of sexual activity), this polling data doesn’t strike me as odd at all.  If anything, it concerns me that it’s just the tip of a larger iceberg of people retreating from having healthy attitudes about sex and women’s health. The urge to label yourself “pro-life” comes from the same place where you go to the store to buy condoms, but since they’re behind the counter, you lose the nerve to ask for them, and skulk out to hope that pulling out will do the trick. 

But it’s more than that, of course.  Perhaps I’ve been watching too much of “The Soup”, but I get the strong impression that Americans are being subject to ever-escalating scare tactics about female sexuality, from the reality show emphasis on skanky chicks to stories about “sexting” to the fact that a major political candidate had an unmarried pregnant teenage daughter, which I do believe is a big time first for us.  “Pro-life” is about controlling that, pushing women towards wife and motherhood, where their behavior sets more people at ease.  That said, I must emphasize that a good number of people who claim to be “pro-life” want to accomplish this goal through social pressure, not through legal force.  Unfortunately for them and for us, their willingness to sign onto that label means they’ve given the organized misogyny movement a weapon to strike against basic human rights. 

The podcast I posted last Monday (since I was on vacation, there won’t be one this week) deals a lot with this issue.  We talk in depth about how people don’t experience the “pro-choice” or “pro-life” labels they are encouraged to wear.  For instance, you’ll meet a lot of women who say, “I believe it should be a right, but I wouldn’t have one.”  These women may or may not call themselves “pro-life”, and they may or may not actually get an abortion.  (Many do, figuring they’re the exception to the stereotype they have about who gets abortions.)  The problem is that people are encouraged to lay judgment on the million plus women a year who get abortions, because they think they don’t know them (they often do), and feel free to assume the worst about them.  But that’s all this poll really measured, and it’s irrelevant on many levels to making policy.

There was also all this stuff about the new online women’s magazine Double X, but I think this post has gone on long enough, don’t you?

*It’s 40, but you really wouldn’t know from anti-choice wanking.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:20 AM • (226) Comments

By mentioning rights that are “supposedly” in the Constitution, Douthat displays his ignorance from the get-go.  The Constitution is a document that places limits on government, not on the government’s citizens.  The question to be asked is not “Where does the Constitution give me the right?” but “Where does the Constitution give government the right?”  Read the Ninth Amendment, Ross.  Tell us what it means, dolt.  Getting 90% on a test on the Bill of Rights is a failing grade in my book, you ignorant ass.

Comment #1: 3letterjon  on  05/18  at  09:31 AM

Amanda, you omitted the word “pregnant” from your description of Palin’s daughter. Chelsea Clinton used to be an unmarried teenage daughter, too, and it’s a good thing because who wants their teenage kid to be married?

Comment #2: Orange  on  05/18  at  09:40 AM

Of course its about teh sex and as we know unless women have it within the confines of the patriarchal family it is simply not allowed.  I am sick of nonsense being reaffirmed every where we look.  Men are to be rewarded for being sexual cause for them it is supposedly all about conquest and possession.  The idea is that pregnancy is meant to be punishment for womenand if we sinners didn’t learn anything from the biblical story of Adam and Eve then the neo-cons are determined that we shall be forced to bear our consequences as the bringers of evil.

Comment #3: womanistmusings  on  05/18  at  09:41 AM

Welcome back Amanda!

Comment #4: Rumblelizard  on  05/18  at  09:45 AM

I’m sick to death of the meme of “Abortion should be legal, but it shouldn’t be used for birth control”.

What the fuck do they think it is?  And why do they get a say in whether or not a medical practice is kosher or not?

It’s medicine.  It’s no one’s business.  Most, if not all, women who terminate after 20 weeks do so for medical conditions—either endangering their health or the fetus’.  Why should any asshole get to get off on slut-shaming for a medical condition?

Oh yeah, women aren’t people.  Only the fetus is a person.  Pregnancy never endangers a woman’s life.  Nope.  It’s just a minor inconvenience, like a cold sore, ugly to look at, but not really life changing.

Fuckers all.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/18  at  09:47 AM

That poll also has a serious sampling problem. It’s worthless. See for example http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/abortion-poll-roundup.html

Comment #6: Steve LaBonne  on  05/18  at  10:05 AM

And a bunch of fags and bitches who do it without Douthat personally signing off on it, not that he would.

Exactly this times infinity.

Comment #7: bananacat  on  05/18  at  10:11 AM

Welcome back Amanda and thanks for the great return post. I just had a long rant to my boyfriend (complete with wikipedia articles, graphs and elaborately waving hands) trying to explain that no, America is not more backwards than the UK as there is no right to abortion in Northern Ireland. He didn’t believe me at first.

I find all of this hand waving about morality, the start of life, and women’s regrets so incredibly infantalising and infuriating I have no words.

(ps - I hope you had a great time over here in the EU!!)

Comment #8: SapphireCate  on  05/18  at  10:16 AM

I did!  I’m glad to be home, of course, but it’s just awesome over there.  But yeah, I’m under no delusions that they’re more feminist or anything, even if some parts of the EU are a lot more relaxed about sex.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/18  at  10:33 AM

What I kind of like about Douthat is that he assumes everyone wants to protect the freedom of white men to tell everyone else to do, and in the end he makes it pretty obvious what is wrong with him and his fellow social conservatives.  Unlike most conservative Douchehat doesn’t seem to know to hide his extreme beliefs.

Comment #10: John Rove  on  05/18  at  10:45 AM

Agreed about N. Ireland.  But I was really surprised to find last night that not only do they sell the morning after pill over the counter here in Scotland, they advertise this fact on prime-time television! I can’t imagine the same thing happening in America.

Comment #11: Rumblelizard  on  05/18  at  10:55 AM

Uh, the Declaration of Independence is not a binding legal document, Ross. I thought they taught that in like, Civics 101 or something.

Comment #12: Jerry Vinokurov  on  05/18  at  10:58 AM

Well, and anti-choicers like the phrase “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, but obviously they don’t think that extends to women, because reproductive rights are critical for all three for women.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/18  at  11:05 AM

They also like the dog whistle reference to a “creator”.

Comment #14: BABH  on  05/18  at  11:27 AM

Well, and anti-choicers like the phrase “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, but obviously they don’t think that extends to women, because reproductive rights are critical for all three for women.

Of course if they really believed that, we could certainly expect to see a Douthat column in the near future citing the same text in support of gay marriage, for example. Obviously this isn’t so; it’s been the conservative tactic for a long time to simply pull random quotations out of context in support of whatever they want while ignoring the actual merits of the argument.

Every reading of Douthat makes it obvious that he’s the beneficiary of some serious affirmative action. The only reason he is where he is now is because he was a conservative at Harvard but his “thinking,” if it can be called that, is confused and sloppy. I die a little inside whenever I am reminded that the ostensibly liberal New York Times gives him space for his idiocy.

Comment #15: Jerry Vinokurov  on  05/18  at  11:27 AM

Douthat is clearly a plot by the Trotskite Times editors to discredit conservatism.

Comment #16: witless chum  on  05/18  at  11:34 AM

Douthat was at TPM cafe for a week and I sort of wondered if they didn’t invite him there to show how brain-dead the conservative movement really is.

As for having him at the times at least he doesn’t plagerize his crap.

Comment #17: John Rove  on  05/18  at  11:42 AM

the Declaration of Independence is not a binding legal document

Quite true, but it would not support Douthat’s postion even if it weren’t.

By mentioning rights that are “supposedly” in the Constitution, Douthat displays his ignorance from the get-go.  The Constitution is a document that places limits on government, not on the government’s citizens.

And the whole point of the Declaration is that we have natural law rights independent of any government pronouncement like the Constitution.  After all, the Constitution contains no explicit guaranty of rights to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” and obviously hadn’t yet been written when the Declaration was enacted.

They [anti-choicers] also like the dog whistle reference to a “creator”.

Which is ironic, because the word “creator” (rather than, say, “God”) was used by Jefferson precisely to be regiously neutral, and at the time msut have seemd like a dog whistle to Deists.

Comment #18: rea  on  05/18  at  11:44 AM

Rumblelizard, I have seen ads for Plan B right here in the US.  Maybe they only get shown on basic cable - I don’t know - but they’re there.

Comment #19: RP  on  05/18  at  11:47 AM

“Pro-life” is about controlling that, pushing women towards wife and motherhood, where their behavior sets more people at ease.  That said, I must emphasize that a good number of people who claim to be “pro-life” want to accomplish this goal through social pressure, not through legal force.  Unfortunately for them and for us, their willingness to sign onto that label means they’ve given the organized misogyny movement a weapon to strike against basic human rights.

There’s not a lot that will bring back the traditional household, though.  Economics just won’t allow it.  All the social pressure in the world isn’t going to make a two-income household into a one-income household if a one-income household can’t pay the bills.

You’ve got a variety of fronts on the culture wars, not the least of which revolves around the size of your house, the school your kids go to, the newness of your car, and the size of your bank account.  Hand wringing about motherhood and the womanly position isn’t going to change that.  Likewise, with the Ledbetter Decision - that was never reasonably going to stand.  Too much money was on the line.  You have an army of working women who just got told, “Hey its ok if you don’t get a full paycheck” and these women need a full paycheck to pay their bills.

This kind of culture progress isn’t a matter of abstract civil justice, its a matter of making a mortgage payment or paying a grocery bill.  And that’s at the core of the life/choice argument as well.  More than just turning women into easy-bake baby ovens, its about marginalizing a woman’s economic future.  The more legislation or judicial decisions infringe on a woman’s ability to provide for herself and her family, the more push back you are going to see.

Comment #20: Zifnab  on  05/18  at  11:55 AM

Rumblelizard, I have seen ads for Plan B right here in the US.  Maybe they only get shown on basic cable - I don’t know - but they’re there.

They’ve just started airing, I think.

I’ve seen them recently, and since I don’t even have cable, I think they’re airing in the “cheap” ad spots on over-the-air television: on the off-channels and late night on the big networks.

Comment #21: hp  on  05/18  at  11:57 AM

There’s not a lot that will bring back the traditional household, though.  Economics just won’t allow it.  All the social pressure in the world isn’t going to make a two-income household into a one-income household if a one-income household can’t pay the bills.

And when the one-income household needs to become two, but the second income can’t cover childcare costs, you start seeing questionable childcare situations pop up.

Comment #22: hp  on  05/18  at  12:06 PM

Seriously, self-identification as “pro-life” does not indicate that the person identifying that way actually supports anti-choice policy.  I am amazed at how many people I have met who will say they are “pro-life” but when you push them on it even a little bit, they will admit that they don’t really think it should be, like, ILLEGAL with criminal penalties and everything, just that people shouldn’t do it.  To which I reply “congratulations, you are pro-choice.”  To a variety of reactions, in my experience.

I would say that this phenomenon is just among people who are not very politically engaged, so have not quite made the connection that political views are about POLICY, not about how I think the world should be in general (ex: abortion free and filled with puppies, unicorns, and rainbows).  It is a distinction that is tough for a lot of people.  Too bad that there are relatively prominent people in politics who talk like this.  Meghan McCain was on Rachel Maddow and said something like “I am pro-life myself, but I wouldn’t judge someone who is pro-choice” and I was screaming at the screen “you ARE pro-choice, you moron!” and wishing Rachel would say something.  I mean, McCain is positioning herself to be in politics and she doesn’t even get it.  I imagine that for her it is largely a tribal identity thing where no matter how pro-choice she is, it would take a huge epiphany for her to actually take on that label, probably because she was raised to see pro-choice people as an evil fetus-eating enemy.

If they did a poll where they asked “do you believe that the power of government should be used to force every pregnant woman to carry her pregnancy to term or face criminal penalties if she does not?” they would find that the number answering YES would be WAY less than half.  When people say they are “pro-life”, this is not what they mean.

Comment #23: GumbyAnne  on  05/18  at  12:07 PM

Something mighty funny about that poll.  Public opinion doesn’t change that fast about an issue like this.  Did they change the text of the question?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Comment #24: Magis  on  05/18  at  12:08 PM

Uh, the Declaration of Independence is not a binding legal document, Ross. I thought they taught that in like, Civics 101 or something.

You’re correct, of course. The Declaration is, however, a powerful and deliberate expression of core values. Ross just continues to interpret “all men” in the 18th century sense of the term (white, Christian, male landowners). Strangely, though, he seems to make a special exception for blastocysts and zygotes.

Speaking of core values, the NYT is certainly damaging its own brand—between moralising ignorami like Douthat and plagiarists like Mo-Do, I’m amazed they ever thought that people would pay to read their columnists.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  12:17 PM

What the right to privacy used to mean (and I know this is not my original thought, but I cannot remember who explained it this way, so thank you, unnamed person on the interwebs.)

It used to be that there was a public sphere, in which government regulation was acceptable, and a private sphere, which is outside of governmental control.  So by saying abortion and contraception were private, what was meant was not “secret” but rather, outside of the power of regulation.  In our more modern concept of rights, we would probably locate right to an abortion (or any other medical procedure) within the concept of liberty or autonomy, not privacy.  But that does mean that the right to privacy can be linked to the 9th Amendment (even though I do not believe it was).  And on that subject, thanks to 3letterjon for making a point that bears repeating—all rights belong to the people unless the constitution gives them explicitly to the government (plus commerce, necessary and proper, blah blah.)

Comment #26: Ismone  on  05/18  at  12:20 PM

Here’s my take on the poll movement: the cohort who are both old enough to remember what life was like for women pre-Roe and young enough to be credible communicators to college-age people is beginning to disappear.

A couple of years ago when I was teaching at a rather more socially conservative university, I got sick and tired of my students telling me they were “pro-life,” so I spent about twenty minutes finding info on the Web about women in the 60s dying from self-induced abortions, including pictures, and made them all watch. This made some of them cry and one memorable young woman say “I don’t mean it should be illegal: I just want people to take precautions and not be slutty!”

Then I found a woman who was about 65 and who had been a nurse back in the bad old days, and had her come in and chat for awhile. She was still young-acting enough that the students were willing to take her seriously: I think it changed a few minds permanently. The students had no idea that women DIED from abortion back then: most of them seemed to think that all women who got pregnant just went and gave the kid up for adoption.

Also, see above with the 538 reference: that poll sucks.

Comment #27: felagund  on  05/18  at  12:21 PM

Rumblelizard, I have seen ads for Plan B right here in the US.  Maybe they only get shown on basic cable - I don’t know - but they’re there.

Ironically, the only time I’ve seen TV ads for it was during one of those Duggar shows with the 20ish kids.  I think Plan B actually sponsored the show.  I guess a lot of people see that family and are scared to end up that way, rather than admiring them.

Comment #28: bananacat  on  05/18  at  12:26 PM

Magis—It’s important to remember that we’ve had eight years of abstinence-only education in this country: actively pushing the idea that women who have sex before marriage are dirty sluts, that pregnancy is un-avoidable once you start having sex (and so taking steps to avoid it or terminate it are necessarily unnatural), that abortion is a moral wrong,, etc, etc. The kids raised on this message are now adults and able to participate in these polls.

If you pull out even more, we’ve had two decades of incredibly well-orchestrated anti-choice movement putting fetus pictures on billboards with “mommy, don’t!” slogans on them and running commercials with delicate piano music in them about how sad women are when they have abortions. They’ve saturated the culture to the point where the knee-jerk response from women is “I would never have an abortion myself” before they elaborate on their own views on whether or not it should be legal.

So, I don’t think that this poll is complete bullshit. It’s scary, and it really underscores how much work the pro-choice movement has to do in detangling the self-righteous posturing rhetoric the anti-choice has steeped the culture in for the last few decades.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/18  at  12:27 PM

They should have asked “Do you favor criminalizing abortion?”

I know a lot of people (that don’t follow politics closely) that weirdly consider themselves pro-life but don’t favor outlawing abortion. To them, “pro-life” means “I personally wouldn’t choose to have an abortion” or “I don’t think abortion is moral.”

Comment #30: Ben D.  on  05/18  at  12:28 PM

Can’t we feel sorry for Douthat. I mean, he has to generate continual flow of this crap,to precisely the right length, on deadline, no less, and get it through the Times copyeditors (who, even if they completely miss huge errors of fact, can be niggling about style). It’s as if he had to produce multiple blog posts every…

Oh, wait.

Comment #31: paul  on  05/18  at  12:30 PM

Question: Did anyone here actually read the entire source article?
The link in the OP leads to another Blog. You have to click a link there to read it…
He seems to be commenting on President Obama’s (as he calls it) Ping Pong Politics.

Comment #32: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/18  at  12:34 PM

Question: Did anyone here actually read the entire source article.

If you mean the Douthat opinion piece, then no. I’ll admit to clicking over to look for other howlers besides the one Amanda quotes, but after reading the opening graf ...

Among their many aspirations for his presidency, Barack Obama’s admirers nurse a persistent hope that he might be able to end the culture wars. And by end, they generally mean win. The real hope is a final victory for cultural liberalism, and social conservatism’s permanent eclipse.

... it quickly became clear that Douthat is as interested in making a good-faith argument as he is knowledgeable about this country’s founding documents: not at all.

At least Lord Saletan pretends he’s looking for some sort of middle ground.

Comment #33: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  12:45 PM

“And by end, they generally mean win.”

He’s onto me!

Comment #34: GumbyAnne  on  05/18  at  12:49 PM

The link in the OP leads to another Blog.

No, both links are there. There is a link to LGM, presumably as a h/t, and a link to Douthat’s column. And you seem to be implying that the column has anything of merit. Well, I read it, and it doesn’t. Douthat couldn’t give a shit about ping-pong politics other than as a way to undercut Obama. I have a problem with triangulation, and I would imagine Amanda does, but Douthat only cares about it inasmuch as it might, oh no, give Obama a better chance of passing at least one socially liberal initiative which would make him and his fellow travelers collapse in agony.

Comment #35: Auguste  on  05/18  at  12:53 PM

All this fuss about the LEAST important question asked in that poll.

And I wonder about what they did with the responses of people who answered the question, “Are you pro-life or pro-choice” the way I would: “Yes.”

Comment #36: Dr. Psycho  on  05/18  at  12:56 PM

I know a lot of people (that don’t follow politics closely) that weirdly consider themselves pro-life but don’t favor outlawing abortion. To them, “pro-life” means “I personally wouldn’t choose to have an abortion” or “I don’t think abortion is moral.”

This attitude isn’t weird at all and it’s very common.  That’s why pro-life or even anti-abortion are not accurate terms to describe people who want to make abortion illegal.  That’s why I call them anti-choice.  It’s not weird to think that someone is wrong but still want to have that option be legal for others.  I don’t even have a problem with people who think abortion is wrong because they are entitled to their opinion.  I only have a problem with them when they start trying to force that opinion onto others.  I hate it when people say “pro-abortion” when they actually mean pro-choice.  Many people want to respect other women’s right to choose, even if it’s a different choice than they would make.  Even among people who don’t think that abortion is wrong, we don’t necessarily want someone else to have an abortion, and we certainly don’t want to force anyone to have an abortion.  This is not a black-and-white issue, and there aren’t just 2 sides to it.

Comment #37: bananacat  on  05/18  at  12:57 PM

Something horrific that I only recently learned about: Roe v. Wade, by bringing abortion theoretically out of the alleys and under the purview of medical ethics boards, also partially eliminated situations where parents would decide girls needed abortions and essentially have the fetus removed without the girl’s consent.

I just heard a really horrifying story from a very pro-choice woman of a certain age about her best friend, who was 17 and six months pregnant, with every intent of getting married as soon as she finished high school and raising her kid (it was the early 1960s, when this was a really common scenario). The above scenario happened to her - we’re talking etherized and operated on with no consent at all. What a horrible, horrible thing to have happen to your body, and I am so freaking glad that abortion clinics are now legal and operating under the purview of medical review boards. Pro-choice means protecting all choices, and when a woman’s consent means nothing, I think it tends to mean nothing either way.

Comment #38: purpleshoes  on  05/18  at  12:57 PM

Well, Beef, if women don’t have the right to control their own bodies, then it’s hard to argue that they’re human beings.

Comment #39: felagund  on  05/18  at  01:08 PM

All the polling data reasonably measures is people’s prejudices about female sexuality, not really their stance on actual policy.

I think it also shows how successful the anti-choice movement has been at spreading disinformation about abortion and contraception.  If you can convince people with already mixed feelings about abortion that it’s used mainly by dirty sluts to escape punishment—AND that the Pill and Plan B are just like it—they’re a lot more likely to claim the ‘pro-life’ mantle.

Comment #40: Sour Kraut  on  05/18  at  01:09 PM

“Pro-life.” God, I hate that term. Still doesn’t cover for the fact that people are easily swayed in-the-moment by specifically connotative terms. Makes these polls a joke and simply another political banner.

Comment #41: The New Anarchist  on  05/18  at  01:17 PM

Roe v. Wade, by bringing abortion theoretically out of the alleys and under the purview of medical ethics boards

I’m a bit confused here. Back in the 50s, women could get “therapeutic” abortions by petitioning a sort of medical review board. Some of these boards found a therapeutic need 100% of the time. So Roe v. Wade did not institute medical ethics boards as I understand it.

Catgirl has it nailed. People who don’t believe that they, personally, would ever have an abortion, count themselves as pro-life. Yet they at the same time would never expect another person to live by their decision. Just ask if they’re anti-choice, would they deny the possibility of abortion to others.

There is also continuing confusion about Plan B. Plan B is emergency contraception, it is not RU486 chemical abortion. Both are loosely referred to as the “morning-after” pill.

Comment #42: Hector B.  on  05/18  at  01:18 PM

Well, Beef, if women don’t have the right to control their own bodies, then it’s hard to argue that they’re human beings.

Well, to be fair, we *could* instead enact laws that ensured that men have no control over their own bodies, either. For instance, a law that men, who transmit disease through penile penetration, are legally not allowed to have sex without a condom unless they can present documentation that they had been recently tested to be disease-free, would strip men of control over their own bodies. Or a law that says that men are not allowed to have Viagra unless they are married. Or a law that says that men must prove that they have enough money to be able to support a child before they are allowed to have penile-vaginal intercourse with a woman unless they are vasectomized and have appropriate documentation of such.

Of course no one would ever seriously *propose* such laws because they are such a blatant violation of human rights. So the fact that people do suggest that women be subject to intrusive, body-controlling laws if they want to have sex does clearly indicate that people don’t think of women as human beings. Human beings have human rights.

Comment #43: Alara J Rogers  on  05/18  at  01:19 PM

What Alara said.

Comment #44: felagund  on  05/18  at  01:24 PM

I’ve written before about my high school friends who were forced, pre-Roe, out of school and into teen marriages: one at 14, one at 16.

An object lesson that led me to make the decision, once in college, that if I got pregnant, I’d have an illegal abortion—based on the rumor there was a “doctor” one hundred miles away who would perform one.

In other words, I was willing to risk my life not to be forced into an early marriage or motherhood, and I knew that was the risk I’d be taking.

In addition to that poll being fucked—I’ve read that it’s an both “outlier,” and that this supposed move toward pro-life is only among conservatives and “moderates” NOT Democrats— I agree that a good portion of those who proclaim they’re pro-life, are not actually for forced birth.

And certainly would be horrified by the human toll of women maimed and killed by illegal abortion.

Several years ago I read a newspaper article about the new “abortion wards”—in the states where abortion is restricted, a sorry piece of medical history is being revived: wards with maimed women recovering from illegal or homemade procedures, but privacy laws and shame are keeping this info out of the information flow.

Anybody got a link?

Comment #45: judybrowni  on  05/18  at  01:27 PM

Oh and I thank the moderaters here, for making it so over the weekend, that I don’t have to read comments from “Franklin Raines” on this subject.

I’m afraid that would have driven me from Pandagon forever.

Comment #46: judybrowni  on  05/18  at  01:29 PM

Alara—there is also a disconnect there because you could pass that law and have zero means of enforcing it. Outlawing abortion is different because you have doctors and hospitals that are regulated by the state who have to perform the abortion under scrutiny. You will have women in the emergency room bleeding out with coathangars sticking out of their vaginas where it’s pretty obvious what happened.

Sex in the privacy of one’s bedroom is not so easy to regulate and enforce, though the right wing has tried. There is no analogy for men for making abortion illegal because any sort of law surrounding a man’s bodily autonomy would not be enforceable. If women could perform abortions on themselves safely and privately, then outlawing abortion would be impossible to regulate in the same way.

Comment #47: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/18  at  01:34 PM

And when the one-income household needs to become two, but the second income can’t cover childcare costs, you start seeing questionable childcare situations pop up.

And women in business seriously question the viability of having kids, keeping using contraception, and contribute to a declining birth rate.  Obviously it’s a shitty system because you’ve got cracks a mile wide for the single mother or the impoverished family to fall into.  But all the pressures that are in place to keep women down also serve to make more abortions necessary.  Worse health care means women don’t catch pregnancy issues until they are too late to recover from.  Lower incomes mean family planning will lead you to fewer numbers of kids.  No child care means would-be mothers don’t want to have kids until they can take longer times off - which keeps them in the work force where they become progressively more entrenched.

The system is designed to force women into a subservient position, but it doesn’t do much to encourage women to accept it.  All sticks, no honey.  Compare that to the “welfare state” model conservatives love to blast.  Professional mom doesn’t sound like such a bad idea if you’re getting hundreds or thousands of dollars in government child support payments.

It’s just amusing to see conservative ideology come crashing into conflict in the middle of the equation.  The end goal appears to be “Make people miserable”.  Is there any wonder why progressivism wins out so often in the long run?

Comment #48: Zifnab  on  05/18  at  01:36 PM

Anybody got a link?

Do you remember the names of one or two states where the “abortion wards” have returned, or perhaps the new euphemism for these places/therapies? I can probably find an authoritative cite for you.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  01:37 PM

And women in business seriously question the viability of having kids, keeping using contraception, and contribute to a declining birth rate.

Yup. I have 1 kid, have a vaguish longing for another, but the memory of the crap we went through regarding daycare and the like, outweighs the vaguish longing.

Comment #50: hp  on  05/18  at  01:52 PM

FROM “538”

Even as anti-abortionists celebrated that headline, some informed criticism of the Gallup findings has pretty clearly shown them to be an almost certain outlier, and highly misleading to boot.

First up, the partisan composition of the Gallup poll sample drew some attention—not surprisingly, since Gallup itself suggested that the “big shift” on abortion was occurring almost entirely among Republicans and Republican-leaning independents.

Charles Franklin at pollster.com made this discovery and observation:

The latest Gallup (5/7-10/09) poll has party identification tied at 32-32 and caused an immediate howl of “outlier!” in the comments at Pollster.com. In this case, the howl is justified. Compared to all recent Gallup polls (so we compare apples to apples) this latest stands out quite a bit from the rest.


Franklin also deals with the theory that polls which ask lots of questions on “values” issues tend to push the party ID numbers. In polling parlance, this is known as the “question order” effect. In the current case, a significant “question order” effect would imply that the abortion numbers are valid, while the party ID numbers may be emphemeral. But looking at similar Gallup surveys in the past, Franklin deduces that it’s never been a factor before, and thus there’s no reason to believe it’s a factor now.

If they show the party ID as 50-50, I’m actually encouraged by the poll.

Comment #51: Magis  on  05/18  at  01:53 PM

“Oh and I thank the moderaters here, for making it so over the weekend, that I don’t have to read comments from “Franklin Raines” on this subject.”

OTOH, “Where’s the BEEF??” sure looks like a reincarnation to me…

Comment #52: MikeEss  on  05/18  at  01:57 PM

Hector B, I was referring strictly to illegal abortions that were performed by unlicensed practitioners or in unlicensed practices. I did not mean to refer to medical reviews for abortions themselves, but rather to the medical review boards (example) that oversee all medical practices within a state and are supposed to protect patients from fraudulent or blatantly unethical practitioners. If in theory doctors who perform abortions and their practices are supposed to be treated like any other outpatient clinic, then they are supposed to be regulated and disciplined by the same state medical review board. Of course as we all know the rules governing practitioners who perform abortions presently are often influenced by politics that have nothing to do with good medical practice, but the fact that they are still considered legitimate medical practices should in theory protect women from some of the abuses that occurred when most abortions were outside the scope of the law. Including protecting patients’ right to decline or pursue treatment without unreasonable interference from other people.

Comment #53: purpleshoes  on  05/18  at  02:01 PM

No child care means would-be mothers don’t want to have kids until they can take longer times off - which keeps them in the work force where they become progressively more entrenched.

Well, a big part of this is also the implicit assumption that it must be the mother who takes time off from work to care for her children.  If it were more socially acceptable for fathers to take care of their own children, more women might be willing to have more children.  Of course, what really need is high-quality, affordable childcare so that both parents can continue to work if they choose to, and not feel guilty about it.  One way to do this would be all-day kindergarten, extended school days for older children (with plenty of recess time), and public preschool for 4 year-olds.  This would have numerous other benefits too.

Comment #54: bananacat  on  05/18  at  02:05 PM

Not that I don’t support a social safety net, because I do, but despite the overwhelming safety net in European countries, especially in Scandinavia, those countries are still seeing declining birth rates.  Having decent child care, health care, welfare, and in some cases even cash payouts for having more babies does not tend to result in a higher birth rate.

Comment #55: keshmeshi  on  05/18  at  02:13 PM

Wow…so if enough people complain about another person enough - they can be banned from this site?

Comment #56: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/18  at  02:36 PM

Having decent child care, health care, welfare, and in some cases even cash payouts for having more babies does not tend to result in a higher birth rate.

And this is a problem, why? 

It’s been well-established in sociology during the last thirty years that the higher a woman’s education level, the fewer children she will choose to have, provided she’s not prevented access to birth control. 

Overall birthrate decline is such a non-issue and totally not a big deal when it can be more than compensated for by relaxing immigration controls. 

As to catgirl’s suggestion for an enhanced investment in education, I’d say go for it.  Numerous other benefits could include a drop in teen pregnancy, delinquency, and juvenile crime. Such a plan would also set aside time at the end of the school day for students who want to participate in music or other arts programs but can’t because their schools are teaching to standardized tests during the day and aren’t funding arts courses.

Comment #57: Mezosub  on  05/18  at  02:37 PM

the folks covering Andrew Sullivan’s blog have posted a link to some better poll data:

http://www.themonkeycage.org/2009/05/has_the_public_become_more_opp.html

Comment #58: Oriscus  on  05/18  at  02:45 PM

Well, color me flabbergasted—they’re showing OTC Plan B ads on American TV now?  I’d never have believed it!

Maybe things are changing!

Comment #59: Rumblelizard  on  05/18  at  02:47 PM

Thanks purpleshoes.

Something like, post Roe v. Wade, abortions were performed by providers licensed for the protection of consumers, with formal complaint procedures available.

Comment #60: Hector B.  on  05/18  at  02:57 PM

Wow…so if enough people complain about another person enough - they can be banned from this site?

People can be banned from this site for any reason.

They usually aren’t, unless they’re a) a sockpuppet of this one guy who keeps coming back or b) obstructive to discussion, whether in terms of intentionally triggering others or continuously failing the stick rule.

Continuously failing the stick rule is, in fact, obstructive to discussion.

Comment #61: Auguste  on  05/18  at  03:02 PM

“Do you remember the names of one or two states where the “abortion wards” have returned, or perhaps the new euphemism for these places/therapies? I can probably find an authoritative cite for you. “

Alas, I remember only that it was a newspaper piece I read online, and something to the effect that in the states where abortion is restricted, created the need again for “abortion wards” in hospitals where the women who were maimed, or have developed infections from illegal or homemade abortions were being quartered, again—for the first time since those infamous “abortion wards” were necessary pre-Roe.

And that privacy laws prevented doctors and nurses from going public on this public health scandal.

Comment #62: judybrowni  on  05/18  at  03:03 PM

uhura, why do you feel the need to constantly needle people in the comments section?  Do you not get enough attention at home?

Comment #63: kitten parade  on  05/18  at  03:05 PM

Oh, almost forgot c): Using a disposable e-mail address to register, especially when you’re using it only to post the same old shit, and then one of us finding out about it.

Try being less transparent, douchebag.

Comment #64: Auguste  on  05/18  at  03:19 PM

judybrowni,

I’ve did some digging, but couldn’t find any articles correlating hospital admissions to treat the results of septic or incomplete abortions with greater restrictions in particular U.S. states post-Roe. I tried checking on Mississippi in particular, for obvious reasons, but no articles came up.

However, there do seem to be enough convincing quantitative studies in other countries that indicate that correlation does indeed exist. For example:

Six months after abortion was legalized in Guyana in 1995, admissions for septic and incomplete abortion dropped by 41%. Previously, septic abortion had been the third largest, and incomplete abortion the eighth largest, cause of admissions to the country’s public hospitals.6 One year after Romania legalized abortion in 1990, its abortion-related mortality rate fell from 142 to 47 deaths per 100,000 live births.7 These are examples of the positive impact legalizing abortion has on women’s health.

Anti-choice activists in the U.S. like to indulge in the fantasy that, prior to the evil liberal plot of Roe v. Wade, abortions were never performed in the U.S., and certainly not by doctors who might botch them. As usual, though, historical and statistical reality has a liberal bias.

Comment #65: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  03:23 PM

Try being less transparent, douchebag.

While I appreciate a comments section free of idiocy, I was looking forward to him coming back as Candid Precipitation.

Comment #66: Hector B.  on  05/18  at  03:24 PM

Candid Precipitation.

No, he’s not that smart. He’d switched to something else and tried faux-outrage this time. Don’t get me wrong, it might be a different guy with the same registration strategy and talking points. Then again, it might not.

Comment #67: Auguste  on  05/18  at  03:28 PM

Wow…so if enough people complain about another person enough - they can be banned from this site?

Only if they’re boring trolls.

Comment #68: stogoe  on  05/18  at  03:30 PM

I know a lot of people (that don’t follow politics closely) that weirdly consider themselves pro-life but don’t favor outlawing abortion. To them, “pro-life” means “I personally wouldn’t choose to have an abortion” or “I don’t think abortion is moral.”

I’m not exactly pro-life.  I don’t want to explain my views too much, because you’d all find them objectionable.  Although pro-lifers would too.  But I think I understand this point of view.  I’d say that what I have is a strong aversion to legislating my morality.  To the extent that this issue is contentious, I don’t feel comfortable imposing my perspective on others.  In that sense, I don’t favor restricting access to abortion.  But to the extent a consensus were to emerge reflecting my views on abortion, I would go along with the consensus and vote to limit access to abortion in some ways.

I think that’s what this “I’m pro-life, but I wouldn’t make abortion illegal” means.  “I don’t favor making abortion illegal, but if a consensus emerged to make abortion illegal, I’d easily be won over.”

(My general perspective is that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with abortion before the baby has a heartbeat.  After the heartbeat, I don’t think it’s murder, but I think it’s about as bad as killing a kitten.  I wouldn’t make abortions after a heartbeat illegal – if you’ve got to choose between your future and a kitten, the kitten has to go - but I’d incentivize early abortions.)

Comment #69: Wallace  on  05/18  at  03:31 PM

I’d say that what I have is a strong aversion to legislating my morality.  To the extent that this issue is contentious, I don’t feel comfortable imposing my perspective on others.  In that sense, I don’t favor restricting access to abortion.

Congratulations, you’re pro-choice.  You don’t have to think that abortion is rainbows and puppies to be pro-choice.  You’re entitled to your opinion, but you don’t want the government to force it onto others.  I hope you realize that the vast majority of abortions are already done before viability.  In the case of later abortions, it’s nearly always the case that the pregnancy risks the life or health of the mother, or that the fetus has serious health problems.

Comment #70: bananacat  on  05/18  at  03:40 PM

The one thing, though, Mighty Ponygirl, is that kids don’t actually pay that abstinence-only crap any mind.  But it might be effective on the topic of abortion, because they do exploit the belief that abortion is something that happens to other women, even though it actually is something 30-40% of women will choose at some point.

Wallace, sorry, but I disagree.  A kitten has thoughts and feelings, and a heartbeat doesn’t.  The notion that we should locate beingness in the heart instead of the brain is an anti-choice tactic that you’ve been suckered by.  Outside of abortion, we don’t follow that rule.  If Siamese twins have two brains but one heart, we give them two names and two birth certificates, which shows where we think beingness is.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/18  at  03:40 PM

Wow…so if enough people complain about another person enough - they can be banned from this site?

Uhura, The Black Gurl on 05/18 at 12:36 PM

First, what Auguste said.

And on a deeper level, every blogger is King or Queen of their own webpage island, as long as they can keep paying their hosting copany.

I don’t have “freedom of speech” on your blog, nor this one really. The internet is not a constitutional democracy, it is a communication tool. Commenters should realize that the main reason they don’t get banned is either, folks want to hear what they have to say, or don’t consider it worth their time and trouble to ban them. There’s no ‘rights’ on the blogosphere.

Comment #72: atheist  on  05/18  at  03:41 PM

Also, it’s insanely sexist to suggest that we “incentivize” early abortion.  That buys right into the anti-choice stereotype that women get abortions on a whim, and do it at 8 weeks or 30 weeks willy-nilly because it feels good or something.  i.e., you’re arguing from the assumption that women aren’t people with human motivations.

In reality, women are people and, as people, they tend to want the problem of pregnancy to disappear quickly.  Most anti-choice laws are attempts to push the abortion off as long as possible—-a solid percentage of second trimester abortions are due strictly to anti-choice laws such as waiting periods that make it hard for women to hustle.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/18  at  03:43 PM

wallace, if that is how you truly feel I will trade you any blastocyst or fetus growing in my body for any kitten you may come into contact with.

Ceiling cat will surely have some things to say to you on judgement day.

Comment #74: kitten parade  on  05/18  at  03:50 PM

I think that’s what this “I’m pro-life, but I wouldn’t make abortion illegal” means.

And it’s as irrelevant to the debate, as framed by the “pro-life” movement, as is your own position regarding abortions being allowed until roughtly the end of the first trimester. They are attempting to legislate morality, and they start the clock running the morning after. That’s the core reason why this poll is worthless for gauging moderate or nuanced views.

“I don’t favor making abortion illegal, but if a consensus emerged to make abortion illegal, I’d easily be won over.”

Those people have an incoherent position—they either respect the primacy of the law, or they respect the howling of the mob (preferably expressed through bogus polls like this one). They can’t have it both ways.

Comment #75: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  03:51 PM

Wow…so if enough people complain about another person enough - they can be banned from this site?

Not really—ultimately it’s the site owners’ decision. From what I’ve observed, the person being banned generally has to be aggressively stupid and ignorant, unwilling to engage in even a simulcrum of good-faith debate, and lacking on-going entertainment value. Otherwise, the site owners do their best to hew to the ideals and spirit of free speech, which always allows for some Speakers’ Corner style cranks and nuts.

Dana, for example, is demonstrably logic- and fact-challenged, but is entertaining in that his earnestly framed arguments are easily knocked down. And he tries, in his own passive-aggressive way, to maintain the pretense that he’s open to hearing his opponents’ arguments. I assume that’s why he’s still around.

Anti-choice Libertarians like EricJG are entertaining for similar reasons: it’s fun to see self-styled objective rationalists trying to avoid admitting that they believe an Invisible Bearded Sky Man™ made a cluster on non-cognizant cells the equivalent of a toddler (or kitten).

FR, on the other hand, was ignorant and stupid, but he was more interested in hitting the comments sections with non-sequiturs, tired Limbaugh talking points, and personal attacks on the site owners and commenters before running. Personally, I think we could have gotten another few weeks of fun at his expense, but Pandagon’s owners obviously believe it’s time for some new attractions in the troll cages.

Comment #76: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  03:56 PM

kids don’t actually pay that abstinence-only crap any mind.  But it might be effective on the topic of abortion, because they do exploit the belief that abortion is something that happens to other women, even though it actually is something 30-40% of women will choose at some point.

Precisely. Abstinence only education may only delay the onset of one’s first sexual encounter by a few months, but it reinforces sexist norms and cultural stereotypes about female sexuality to the point where it really teaches girls how to think of themselves as the exception to the rule. So when they say “I would never have one personally—I’m personally pro-life” they’re in the same frame of mind as when they said “I’ll stay abstinent until I marry.” They’re making a vow based on the cultural expectation that’s being thrust upon them without thinking about the ramifications.

Comment #77: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/18  at  04:03 PM

Abstinence only education may only delay the onset of one’s first sexual encounter by a few months, but it reinforces sexist norms and cultural stereotypes about female sexuality to the point where it really teaches girls how to think of themselves as the exception to the rule.

In other words, it’s a complete success from the standpoint of its proponents.

Comment #78: Auguste  on  05/18  at  04:04 PM

That’s Kristol-level disingenuousness from the Douchehat, really.

Abortion foes are defending a right to life grounded in the Declaration of Independence,

...if you squint a little and pretend that 1776 was just like 1976 but with different disco wigs.

Comment #79: pseudonymous in nc  on  05/18  at  04:11 PM

Oh and I thank the moderaters here, for making it so over the weekend, that I don’t have to read comments from “Franklin Raines” on this subject.

Seconded - my Monday could not be better right now. Now if I can just get all the local restaurants to post their nutritional information online, so I can program it into my calorie-counting software, it’ll be the perfect day. smile

On topic, I would think it goes without saying that a poll that does not define its terms is meaningless. “Pro-life” and “pro-choice” are labels that mean, really, whatever people want them to mean. (So are politically parties, really, as evidenced by my “Republican” boyfriend who votes for Democrats - including Obama - and shocked me into silence last night with a brief I-really-can’t-believe-people-are-still-arguing-over-abortion-get-over-it-people diatribe that was deeply “pro-choice” as I define it.)

Really, all labels in a poll have to be defined, even for narrow things that “obviously” have only one meaning. Take religious affiliation. There’s a lot of people who consider themselves “Christian” but don’t meet whatever criteria someone else has laid down (my benchmark is Fred Clarke and Robert Price, but that’s a very high bar). Lots of people tell me I’m not a “real” Wiccan because I don’t follow Gardner’s particular path. My point is that asking people “are you X” is worthless - you need to ask people “do you want X done” (abortion made illegal) or “do you follow Y philosophy” or whatever.

Comment #80: Essie Elephant  on  05/18  at  04:30 PM

The piece I read about the new “abortion wards” may not have been based on gathered statistics, but off-the-record qoutes from health professionals dealing with the aftereffects of abortion restrictions.

It was more than several years ago, but I’ve been unable to track back to it since. However, in 2003 the Guttmacher Institute set up warning flags through illustrating “The toll the nation’s abortion laws took on women’s lives and health in the years before Roe.”

Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html

The article, “The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion” qoutes abortion providers on the disconnect between theory and practice when the pro-life are faced with their own personal choices.

“We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven’t given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does.” (Physician, Washington State)

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

“a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who’d had abortions disagreed with the statement, “Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally.” A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. “

Comment #81: judybrowni  on  05/18  at  04:51 PM

...if you squint a little and pretend that 1776 was just like 1976 but with different disco wigs.

Of course, abortion wasn’t considered a crime in 1776, either.  It’s from almost 100 years later, but the story of Madame Restell is a very interesting one.  Note the guest appearance by anti-contraception crusader Anthony Comstock.

Comment #82: Mnemosyne  on  05/18  at  04:57 PM

Well, a big part of this is also the implicit assumption that it must be the mother who takes time off from work to care for her children.  If it were more socially acceptable for fathers to take care of their own children, more women might be willing to have more children.

Well, there’s a certain portion of the pregnancy that will inevitably be dominated by the mother, since the dad can’t just socially acceptable himself a womb.  I’ve yet to meet a woman that’s claimed childbirth is easy, and while you do have the truly hard core mom that can pop out a kid and be in for work the next morning, this is the exception far more than the rule.  And, of course, dads can’t wet nurse.

The time off spent having a child comes directly out of the mother’s pocket one way or another.  That’s unavoidable.  Whether a work environment can then even accommodate the new mom is the only real question.

Of course, what really need is high-quality, affordable childcare so that both parents can continue to work if they choose to, and not feel guilty about it.  One way to do this would be all-day kindergarten, extended school days for older children (with plenty of recess time), and public preschool for 4 year-olds.  This would have numerous other benefits too.

What we REALLY really need is high wages and shorter work days.  I’m not sure why the best solution is to turn school into perma-day care.  I mean, otherwise why not just have public boarding schools?  Then you can drop out a rug rat, hand it some luggage, and not have to worry about the tike till he graduates college.

Parents should have more time to be with their kids.  That means raising the standard of living up to the point where a two parent family don’t have to spend vacation days to pick a kid up from school on time.  Where you don’t have to work three jobs to pay for college.  :-p

Comment #83: Zifnab  on  05/18  at  05:06 PM

Parents should have more time to be with their kids.  That means raising the standard of living up to the point where a two parent family don’t have to spend vacation days to pick a kid up from school on time.

Sure, but- what about those of us who would always end up picking up the slack for the parents at work because we are now considered less of a concern since we choose NOT to breed?
Oh wait- this already happens anyway.

Comment #84: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/18  at  05:45 PM

Sure, but- what about those of us who would always end up picking up the slack for the parents at work because we are now considered less of a concern since we choose NOT to breed?
Oh wait- this already happens anyway.

*shrug* And in my real life experience, it’s generally the mothers-with-kids who are forced to prove their non-slackiness time and time again by picking up the shit that others drop. It starts from the presume that mothers-with-kids are going to slack, and ends with them being assigned more to do because it’s presumed they are secretly slacking somehow.

Comment #85: hp  on  05/18  at  05:50 PM

Can we please not have a retread of the parents VS. singles debate?  It just makes everyone look like assholes.

Comment #86: history_mom  on  05/18  at  05:59 PM

HP, it’s no use “reasoning” with the mythology of the child-free movement.  If these people are so put-upon and undervalued for their special non-breeding talents at a job that cuts them no slack because they don’t have kids, why the hell don’t they find another job?  Or, maybe, insist on policies that grant that employers have .... LIVES .... regardless of their parity?  Like I have - repeatedly?

I say this as a mother of two who has been pulling 50+ hour weeks since before xmas and cut a special deal to count my missed time off from our manditory office closing over new years as vacation because I couldn’t dump the kids on my husband to work unless I got my time back.

In other words Danica, fuck you.  Grow a backbone or find a new employer.  Those of us who have advocated for sane work/personal life issues for everybody who works don’t appreciate your “wahhhhhhhhh”-ing about “breeders”.  If you stopped feeling soooo superior and martyred for long enough, you might realize that this lamest finger pointing just plays into the hands of those who exploit EVERYONE rather than calling them to account for divide and conquer.

Comment #87: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  05:59 PM

Sorry, “singles” should be “child-free”

Comment #88: history_mom  on  05/18  at  06:00 PM

oh dear, darling uhura. you were bragging just the other day about banning catgirl from your blog. and now you complain about a troll here being banned after many requests? how about sit the fuck down? liar or hypocrite, which are you?

Comment #89: chibi  on  05/18  at  06:00 PM

BTW, I insisted that the person without children that I was working with got that deal too.  She has worked like through the holiday shutdown in the past and lost her time to this rather dated and backward policy, and was very grateful that I laid down the boundaries as I did - and had to.

Comment #90: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  06:04 PM

Great, now our banned troll is trying to fake identities. “Miein”, indeed.

Comment #91: history_mom  on  05/18  at  06:05 PM

oh and ms. kate, you seem to have your own deal with hating on the ‘child-free.’ no one was being that rude to you, so how about not try to start a fight and prove that you’re so much better than danica at…whatever?

“your “wahhhhhhhhh”-ing….  If you stopped feeling soooo superior and martyred for long enough”

projection much? because you’re dripping with a superiority complex against those who choose not to have kids.

Comment #92: chibi  on  05/18  at  06:13 PM

this is also a fascinating little jab nugget:

“special non-breeding talents “

as opposed to…what kind of talents?

Comment #93: chibi  on  05/18  at  06:16 PM

Ross just continues to interpret “all men” in the 18th century sense of the term (white, Christian, male landowners). Strangely, though, he seems to make a special exception for blastocysts and zygotes.

Well, that’s just exactly it. Blastocysts and zygotes might be (might grow into) MEN, in the 18th century sense of the term; whereas those pregnant women aren’t ever going to be anything more useful than women.

Comment #94: kristin  on  05/18  at  06:20 PM

The way I figure, cutting parents a little slack today ensures that there will be nurses, dentists, and automechanics available to take care of my needs, thirty years from now. Children: not just a gratifying hobby, but a contribution to society.

Comment #95: Hector B.  on  05/18  at  06:23 PM

“Great, now our banned troll is trying to fake identities. “Miein”, indeed. ” 
You see, now he gets to stop all the evil women and queers form emasculating him by ignoring him.  I bet he thinks property rights are sacred, yet here he is using someone else’s bandwidth without permission.

Comment #96: Fatman  on  05/18  at  06:23 PM

oh dear, darling uhura. you were bragging just the other day about banning catgirl from your blog. and now you complain about a troll here being banned after many requests? how about sit the fuck down? liar or hypocrite, which are you?

I have never even been to her website.  How could I have been banned if I have never been there?  I guess it’s possible that someone else would use the name “catgirl”, since there are a lot of girls who have a cat.  Or maybe she’s just lying.

Comment #97: bananacat  on  05/18  at  06:32 PM

emasculating him by ignoring him

It’s not just that, we won’t talk about his ‘issues’ as a white person, clearly he’s had some problems in his life because of his skin color, not because of his magnetic personality.

<u>without permission.</u>

That’s because real conservatives don’t ask for permission or apologies grin

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/18  at  06:33 PM

Woah, didn’t mean to start an uproar here. :(

Even when I was not a mother-with-kid, I saw that the philosophy stated above (“mothers as slackers”) really did drive a pretty sucky business culture. And really, it’s one that in some ways, is intentionally there. Many mothers who are working are working because they have to work. Hold over their heads that they are constantly in danger of being considered slackers, and you’ve got someone to toss all the loose ends at . . . and someone to toss all the blame at when things don’t get done in the unreasonable amount of time they’re expected to be done in.  Every bit of flexibility is expected to be returned at least two-fold: take an hour off on Wednesday to take your kid to the doctor, and your employer expects two hours of work in return for that.

And even if you always put in those two hours-for-one, somebody is going to gripe that the one hour you needed to take off is a sign of your slackerdom.

My current job isn’t really like that, although if anyone tried to pin that on me, they’d have another thing coming. Like the fact that I generally work a full day friday—while most of the rest of the office works half-day—because I’m paying for a full day of daycare whether I pick up le kid at noon or 4pm, and from noon to 4pm is lunch, nap, snack. Might as well just pick up at 4pm. (And at his preschool next fall, it’s going to be lunch, nap, swimming lesson, so, might as well just pick up at 4pm.)

Comment #99: hp  on  05/18  at  06:41 PM

Maurren dowd is seriously getting trashed over on hot air

Comment #100: EricJG  on  05/18  at  06:55 PM

Wahh yourself Ms. Kate.

And hey - nice mouth on you.

I’m with chibi.

Comment #101: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/18  at  06:57 PM

Not much common ground:

“There are people who believe that women have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies ... and there are people who do not believe women have that right.

...We ... don’t dialogue with ...any other kind of bigot—we pass laws that prohibit their bigotry from infringing on the rights of others ...Why, when it comes to women’s right to choose, is this so hard to understand?

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/05/18/common-ground

Comment #102: judybrowni  on  05/18  at  07:02 PM

Ooh, ooh! Are we picking sides? I’m with Ms. Kate! Specifically, I’m on the side of “being the caretaker for a child is a legitimate reason to be cut some slack at work, mostly because people who don’t have kids never seem to appreciate how much it hurts your chances of career advancement unless you happen to have a spouse who does all the kid-work.” Other groups of people who deserve a bit of slack include caretakers of aging parents and people whose partners or other immediate family members have long-term illnesses that require caretaking.

I know different kinds of oppression and disadvantage aren’t supposed to be comparable, but there is always a note for me in this discussion of people who don’t know what it’s like to have a disadvantage arguing that the tiny tiny official compensations (like parental leave) are some sort of preference or special rights when they’re actually just a drop in the big bucket of disadvantage. (I don’t have kids yet but I paid close attention to the damage it did to my mother’s career to constantly have to be the parent who left work because one of us fell off the monkey bars and hit our heads. It was really upsetting, and one of the things that made me take feminism seriously, because penalizing people for their reproductive choices is not okay.)

It’s entirely possible that I just haven’t heard the child-free argument that’s swayed me yet, though. I admit I tend to mostly remember worst-case cf-ers who are angry because someone in their office was “allowed” to take sick leave because their child was in the hospital.

Comment #103: purpleshoes  on  05/18  at  08:00 PM

I don’t quite understand the nuts and bolts of the child free movement, though I’ve heard of it over the last few years.  Is it a subdivision of Libertarianism?  It seems that way.

Comment #104: Dr. Locrian  on  05/18  at  08:04 PM

I’d be curious to see where these offices are that give people with kids privileges over those who don’t.  I haven’t run into any out here in Los Angeles.  I did hear quite a bit of bitching when my old boss had to stay home with her sick kids, but those same people weren’t staying at the office until 10 pm like she was to make up the time.

But, hey, let’s argue about whether or not people with kids get extra breaks at work instead of concentrating on making work better for everyone, kids or not.

(And, no, I don’t have kids.  I do have cats, and my bosses have generally been pretty good about letting me go for vet appointments.)

Comment #105: Mnemosyne  on  05/18  at  08:05 PM

I think we have gotten rather off topic, but hell, I am always game for this discussion…

It is unlikely that there are many more vehemently child free people than me, but I tend to agree with purpleshoes.  Maybe it is just the latent Marxism in me, but if breeders need coworkers to pick up a little slack so that they can take care of a child (a child who cannot be blamed for its own existence no matter what we may think of the decision that led to that existence), and those coworkers have the ability to pick up said slack, then the slack should be picked up.  Given how common breeding is, and that the emergencies that require a parent to be called away from wok are unlikely to hit all parents at once, it can be assumed that a lot of those doing extra work are themselves breeders.

I guess what I am saying is that just because these individuals made a particular choice that I find reprehensible does not mean that they lose the right to be treated decently, and that includes consideration being shown for their personal issues, whatever those may be.  Some of my favorite people are breeders.  We have all done things that someone finds evil.

Comment #106: Fatman  on  05/18  at  08:18 PM

Mighty Ponygirl!  I just stumbled across your blog for the first time in a long time—sad to see it’s still dark, but glad to see you’re doing well.  I looked at your list of game accounts, but sadly there’s nothing on there I’m involved in.  Are you still playing City of Heroes/Villains, by any chance—it was your review that turned me onto it in the first place, and my normal partner is going away for the summer…

Comment #107: Boolean  on  05/18  at  08:24 PM

The problem isn’t so much parents who take time off work for their kids. The problem is how we deal with the men who are able to work 80 hour weeks because they have <strike>patriarchy-enablers</strike> housewives that take care of everything for them. I see a lot of this going on in the sciences.

Comment #108: Entomologista  on  05/18  at  08:51 PM

I am young enough to have failed to commit to child-freeness or motherhood, although I have very strong sympathies toward the former. I also agree with:

It is unlikely that there are many more vehemently child free people than me, but I tend to agree with purpleshoes.  Maybe it is just the latent Marxism in me, but if breeders need coworkers to pick up a little slack so that they can take care of a child (a child who cannot be blamed for its own existence no matter what we may think of the decision that led to that existence), and those coworkers have the ability to pick up said slack, then the slack should be picked up.  Given how common breeding is, and that the emergencies that require a parent to be called away from wok are unlikely to hit all parents at once, it can be assumed that a lot of those doing extra work are themselves breeders.

I don’t understand why people can’t understand that women are discriminated against for being mothers, and also discriminated against in different ways for being child-free (and I do not think “having to pick up slack at work for mothers” counts as discrimination, but there are other social pressures and penalties that do). Similarly, the ways in which I, as an unattractive woman, and my friends who are attractive women, encounter the sexism of objectification manifest differently, but we’re both oppressed. Sexism happens to lots of women, even those who occupy different poles.

Comment #109: Mandolin  on  05/18  at  08:56 PM

i don’t have kids, and i can’t carry a pregnancy, BUT i am disabled. so there goes a lot of cool jobs. because finding a job that i can do that will hire me? i am not hire-able because A) i can’t work specific shifts (i could still pull a 40 hour work week, but it would be a lot more spreak out) and B) no employer wants to pay the insurance premium for me.
if we get good single party-paying national health insurance, i might have a chance at a good job again. not that i am allowed to work at the moment…
my last job was (amazing) really cool about my physical issues. i delivered for Pizza Hut (which i had sworn to never do, because they pay less than everyone else, but…) i was there for over a year. if i couldn’t walk one day, i just switched days. i delivered for 4 months with my right arm in a sling (it was the 4th time i had dislocated it. i still am not allowed to pick up more than 5lbs with my right arm) and since there were jobs i couldn’t do (dishes, trash) this was switched to jobs i *could* do (most of the food prep? very easy, and then someone else got to carry the stacks of pans). when my hip rebelled, we spent almost 5 months trying different jobs in the store, they were trying *so*HARD to keep me employed. i worked until my doctor made me quit.

as for the child-free vs child-burdened argument:
i got custody of my youngest sister. despite the federal law that states any parent is supposed to X days off when they first receive their child (it includes days off for adoption, which is essentially what i was doing) i had to use *sick days* to get my sister. the job i had then… well, it was ok but not great. and i was *not* allowed to use ANY of my sick time for my sister, so i could not take her to appointments, or for court - i had to quit the job so i could make it to court dates.
i get that it *looks* like a parent is getting “slack” - but that sick time they use for the kids means that they are still working when they, themselves, are sick.
its like the smoking issue. smokers get breaks in some jobs that non-smokers don’t get. because people are prone to not rocking the boat.
why is it that so many jobs that could be done online require an office? why do you have to *go in*, instead of doing a lot of that work at home? and when you do take work home, how often are you paid for that overtime? its all messed up.
i like Germany’s model - 30-hour work weeks, mandated sick and vacation time, parent leave, all paid.

Comment #110: denelian  on  05/18  at  09:42 PM

  Parents should have more time to be with their kids.  That means raising the standard of living up to the point where a two parent family don’t have to spend vacation days to pick a kid up from school on time.

Sure, but- what about those of us who would always end up picking up the slack for the parents at work because we are now considered less of a concern since we choose NOT to breed?
Oh wait- this already happens anyway.

Wait…raising the standard of living to the point where a two-person family unit doesn’t have to forfeit vacation days because they have enough of them (Europeans taking August off anyone?) somehow fucks over people without children?  Returning to a time when Americans worked fewer hours per week than the Japanese or Europeans but were more productive would screw the child-free? 

Who knew?

I bet you whine about curb cutouts in the sidewalks, too.

Seriously, I don’t give a shit whether or not you have children.  In fact, if you don’t want to, or feel ambivalent about it, I’d really prefer you didn’t. 

But here’s the thing: other women have the right to make different choices.  Since most childcare falls upon women in our society—in pretty much every society on this planet—that makes the resentment against a parent taking time off for a sick child pretty much an anti-feminist view. 

Cause you know what happens if you take a vacation day to pick up your kid b/c s/he’s sick or b/c it’s yet another ‘teacher’s institute’ day? You don’t get to take a vacation with that day.

You know, like someone who only has to take care of themselves can.  Or like people who live in decent societies with sufficient sick/vacation time can. 

Heaven forfend people be able to take care of children or parents with Parkinson’s or siblings with mental handicaps or a partner with cancer!  Taking random days off to care for family instead of a planned vacation infringes on the childfree!  Somehow.  It’s not fair to them!  They have to pick up the slack…except when they take their vacation days all in a row and go to Tahiti.

The only fair choice is not to have children at all.  Choosing differently inconveniences our corporate mindsets too much.  And parents and siblings should fuck off, too.

Or…we could have a society where people don’t have to work 100 hour work weeks.  It doesn’t have to be this way.

Comment #111: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/18  at  09:50 PM

City of Heroes/Villains, by any chance—it was your review that turned me onto it in the first place, and my normal partner is going away for the summer…

What? I’ve never played those MMORPGs.

Comment #112: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/18  at  10:01 PM

What about us people who did exactly what the reich-wings think we should do, out of stupidity or misguided love or whatever? Being a stay at home parent for many years while I followed the ex around so he could get experience in the military? Then gee, he up and leaves. I have three kids, two with special needs (Down syndrome and severe ADHD). The oldest is ADHD as well but as a teenager has learned to cope with the distra… ooh! Shiny! Did I mention ADHD is hereditary? Anyway… there’s just all these employers DYING to give me those ‘special privileges’ in the work place. I’ve been job-hunting for over a year and can’t even get work at McDonald’s because -gasp- nobody wants to hire someone who has been out of the workforce and can’t work every single potential hour. Then there’s that whole finding childcare for a thirteen year old girl with a developmental disability- ie, it’s not happening, especially since anything I could find without a college education would pay the big ol’ $8.55 an hour. So yeah, it’s just fucking PEACHY in the workplace as a parent- assuming you can get a JOB to begin with.

/end rant

Comment #113: TheRealistMom  on  05/18  at  10:07 PM

Hey chibi - look over there ... Danica might be getting something you are not and maybe you should whine about that too.

And Danica?  Chibi might be getting something that you aren’t.

There - consider yourself manipulated by the Patriarchy - now you two can go play your zero sum game somewhere else while the rest of us work for a more fair and reasonable system for EVERYBODY.

Comment #114: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  10:10 PM

Well, a big part of this is also the implicit assumption that it must be the mother who takes time off from work to care for her children.  If it were more socially acceptable for fathers to take care of their own children, more women might be willing to have more children.  Of course, what really need is high-quality, affordable childcare so that both parents can continue to work if they choose to, and not feel guilty about it.  One way to do this would be all-day kindergarten, extended school days for older children (with plenty of recess time), and public preschool for 4 year-olds.  This would have numerous other benefits too.

catgirl on 05/18 at 01:05 PM

Sorry catgirl, but I have to disagree with you on this one.  If you want kids, but don’t want to care for them, then please don’t have them.  (That’s the uniquitous general you, not the personal you, BTW)  but please don’t expect me (again the group me) to pay for them because then I can’t stay home/work less/ at a closer lesser payign job/spend time with the kids I have chosen to have because I will have to earn money to pay the taxes (not income, but generally property taxes) for full day kindergarten. 
Since most of these things are available fr a fee, I’m assumign you mean public funding for same.  If not, conside rthis my RoseAnnRoseannadanna moemnt and “Nevermind.”

Comment #115: phylosopher  on  05/18  at  10:21 PM

*shrug* And in my real life experience, it’s generally the mothers-with-kids who are forced to prove their non-slackiness time and time again by picking up the shit that others drop. It starts from the presume that mothers-with-kids are going to slack, and ends with them being assigned more to do because it’s presumed they are secretly slacking somehow.

So true!  I’ve got some anecdotal evidence:  during a huge layoff at my company, the people who mostly got the ax are working mothers.  Notably, the dudes with housewives and single/child-free people like me were kept on.  Go figure.  I guess since I don’t have a kid my employer will never question my commitment to Sparkle Motion or something.

Comment #116: Cat Ion  on  05/18  at  10:23 PM

I’d much rather pay taxes and have kids being looked after then to save a few bucks a month and have the little assholes running wild.

Delinquent shits.

Get off my lawn.

Comment #117: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/18  at  10:34 PM

its like the smoking issue. smokers get breaks in some jobs that non-smokers don’t get. because people are prone to not rocking the boat.

Keep in mind that these situations are not the fault of the smokers, but of the workplace policies and lack therof.  Workplaces and supervisors think nothing of pitting workers against other workers as a distraction from a lack of systematic policy.  Hating on smokers is a nice distraction from the general fail here.  You should not need permission or screening of your reasons for breaks and time off.

Funny thing is, in my husband’s office it is the people with children who are constantly covering for the people without children who add unpaid weeks onto their long vacations and who also travel more frequently for work .  My husband had the beeper for a couple of extra weeks because his boss, who was next for the duty, was on yet another month long vacation. He also worked 1am to 9am and then had to be in the office by noon because he is in town all the time. So did the guy with the toddler and the new baby.  However, they will get this time back when they need or want it and the globetrotter without kids will be the one covering and will make up for some beeper time because his company has sane policies that apply to everybody regardless of their “reason” for using their time off.  That is the way it should be.

Comment #118: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  10:35 PM

OK, let’s try this with proofreading:
Sorry catgirl, but I have to disagree with you on this one.  If you want kids, but don’t want to care for them, then please don’t have them.  (That’s the ubiquitous general you, not the personal you, BTW) but please don’t expect me (again the group me) to pay for them because then I can’t stay home/work less/ at a closer lesser paying job/spend time with the kids I have chosen to have and would like to really know,  because I will have to earn money to pay the taxes (not income, but generally property taxes) for full day kindergarten. 
Since most of these things are already available for a fee, I’m assuming you mean public funding for same.  If not, consider this my RoseAnnRoseannadanna moment and “Nevermind.”

phylosopher on 05/18 at 09:21 PM

Comment #119: phylosopher  on  05/18  at  10:35 PM

Phylosopher, all I can say is that years of social supports in Canada and Northern Europe contradict much of what you have to say here.

That’s because the tax-supported costs of childcare don’t come out of your pocket in sane family-friendly nations - the cost comes out of corporate pockets, in the form of taxes on profits that companies never otherwise share with their workers or communities (in other words, if you think you get paid more because the US doesn’t do this than dream on). 

Keep that in mind.

Comment #120: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  10:40 PM

I am enjoying the parenting pile-on, I admit. TheRealistMom, 1) that sucks 2) there was a long-ago school of parenting that held that if you were in that situation you had a perfectly legitimate reason to just stay on welfare until the kids turned 18. It’s impossible since the Clinton Reforms, and I admit I’m kicking it out there just to see phylosopher’s head spin (apparently he’s against public funding for ... kindergarten?) but by god, sometimes it starts to seem like a reasonable argument.  (I know one woman who is essentially a full-time foster mother, which people give her crap about but sometimes she has four kids, each of whom has three different therapy appointments every day. Sometimes it just seems like parenting should be a paying job).

Is it occurring to any of the other pro-parent people on this thread that one of the problems is that the caretaking/working parent is splitting one person’s worth of sick leave between two or more people, and maybe it would make more sense to actually give people with registered dependents a little bit of extra sick leave towards the odd feverish child / elderly parent who has to get to PT / other caretaker emergency? Of course, we know how this goes: it would probably lead to employers being even more reluctant to take on people they know have dependents, because sometimes employers are encouraged to forget that their business is also part of society and society includes plenty of people who are not presently economically productive.

Comment #121: purpleshoes  on  05/18  at  10:40 PM

Oh, and I think we should expand this a bit here to encompass other areas of unpaid female labor expectations.  Put simply, if a woman isn’t willing to care for her aging parents, then she really shouldn’t have them!

Comment #122: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  10:43 PM

ms. kate, don’t waste time trying to…what, play me against someone as if i’m interested. note i never said anything about danica’s statements except that you made the point of being rude to her. she never said anything to you, and i’m calling you out on attacking her for nothing. i don’t have any issue with working parents, but please continue to pretend you know anything at all about me.

also, pro-tip for all who are mentioning “child-free”: not wanting kids of your own does not actually make you a mean, awful person by default. just because you don’t get it and have met some assclowns has nothing to do with the people who just…don’t want kids. trust me, some of us don’t get WANTING to have kids, really don’t get it, but i’m not planning on attacking people who do. there’s no reason.

a liberal blog where people are being downright bitchy (oh noes i said it) to people who don’t fit a certain liberal mold is wack. if someone has a serious logic deficiency, like franklin raines? have at it. but reactionary cussing out of someone who apparently pushed your button serves no purpose. shutting down of dialogue is for trolls, and i would expect more sense from most people around here.

Comment #123: chibi  on  05/18  at  10:53 PM

Chibi, I have no problem with people not wanting kids.  I do have problems with people who don’t have kids blaming any and all workplace issues on people with kids and perpetuating grandiose myths of martyrdom without any statistical support for their mythologies. 

Decent workplace policies that treat employees fairly and give equal access to leave time are what was brought up initially, and I slammed Danica for her ridiculous and divisive response to that.  It isn’t a zero sum game, and I’m frankly surprised that you two can’t see that to save your (outside of work) lives. 

Childfree people are not the problem - but the childfree movement as currently represented and constituted is part and parcel of the patriarchy.  Some simple web searching and reading will reveal that.  Whether or not people have kids should not matter in the workplace - and people who have workplaces who act like it does need to grow up and demand equity from their employers and not blame other workers for having a suitable “excuse” to take time off in the eyes of the boss or company.  You don’t need a reason to take a day off - that’s the real issue, not people who have kids.

Comment #124: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  11:03 PM

Wait, wait, is phylosopher seriously complaining about paying taxes for public school for other people’s children?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Good luck with your Mad-Max-like, completely uncivilized future; hope you have a functioning farm and a well-fortified wall to protect you from all those Other People’s Kids 20 years from now.

Meanwhile, can I opt out of paying taxes to keep the water your kids drink and the air they breathe clean for them? I’d rather pay only for the air and water MY kids use, you know.

Comment #125: kristin  on  05/18  at  11:15 PM

“...but the childfree movement as currently represented and constituted is part and parcel of the patriarchy….” 
At first I was flabbergasted by this, but then I thought, insofar as every part of contemporary society is tainted by patriarchal concerns, yes the child-free movement is part of the patriarchy.  Well maybe not as much as every part of society, and seemingly less than following of the life script that leads to many births, but yes the child-free movement is not wholly without the touch of the patriarchy.

That being said child-free men and women share the single trait of supporting a person’s right to not reproduce.  This requires access to birth-control, so while all groups have their assholes, to be called child-free one must support access to birth-control.  I freely admit that I may be wrong on this point, but I believed that unrestricted access to birth-control is one of the central tenants of liberal feminism.  Thus being considered part of the child-free movement requires at least one feminist belief, a requirement not placed on the general populace.  Therefore to be part of the child-free movement is to be more likely to be a feminist.  There are of course always outliers.

Comment #126: Fatman  on  05/18  at  11:16 PM

@Mighty Ponygirl—

I discovered you and Tekanji around the same time, and a couple of others blogs; I must have gotten you confused.

Comment #127: Boolean  on  05/18  at  11:19 PM

Mighty Ponygirl —Agree 100%

I worked with a non-parent Libertarian who didn’t understand why he had to pay taxes for public schools. I told him while the kids were in school they were unable to break into his condo and steal his HDTV.

That argument he accepted.

Comment #128: Hector B.  on  05/18  at  11:19 PM

Fatman, go look at the kind of woman hating dialogue that goes on on Childfree message boards.  I think you will see that patriarchy in spades.

To many “childfrees”, women in particular who have children are subhuman and hateable.  Reproductive freedom includes the right to reproduce every bit as much as the right not to reproduce.  As is typical of non-conformist movements, their vitriolic and hate-spewing fringe sinks them.

Comment #129: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  11:28 PM

yes the child-free movement is part of the patriarchy

The patriarchy relegates fathers to the good provider role. He doesn’t have to interact with his children at all, because his highest duty is to provide for their physical needs. To succeed at this, work must be his highest priority at all times.

Later, women entered the work force. To compete with men, women must set work as their highest priority at all times.

Since the 1950s in the US, the gains labor made to limit work hours have been completely given up. Your employer owns you, body and soul, 24/7.

If the matriarchy were in charge, employers would realize parents need to take care of their children on occasion, and that children need to take care of parents on occasion.

The biggest workplace hypocrisy is the lip service paid to “work-life” balance.

Comment #130: Hector B.  on  05/18  at  11:29 PM

oh dear, darling uhura. you were bragging just the other day about banning catgirl from your blog. and now you complain about a troll here being banned after many requests? how about sit the fuck down? liar or hypocrite, which are you?

That was a joke, Sheesh.

Anyway - the way MY place is operated: Mob rule isn’t allowed.

Comment #131: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/18  at  11:39 PM

Not much common ground:

“There are people who believe that women have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies ... and there are people who do not believe women have that right.

...We ... don’t dialogue with ...any other kind of bigot—we pass laws that prohibit their bigotry from infringing on the rights of others ...Why, when it comes to women’s right to choose, is this so hard to understand?

This is what I don’t get either. Isn’t it enough for you (hypotheical “you”) to NOT get an abortion if you think its wrong. Why is it necessary to prevent other people from getting them?

Comment #132: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/18  at  11:41 PM

hypothetical ....sorry - I’m a bit drowsy.

Comment #133: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/18  at  11:42 PM

“...go look at the kind of woman hating dialogue that goes on on Childfree message boards….”
I think my disconnect from your understanding of child-free people comes from the fact that I am basing my views on the many child-free people I know off-line, the majority of whom are women. 

Perhaps your statements hypothesizing a greater concentration of pro-patriarchy individuals among those professing to be child-free are true and I am only getting defensive because I was recently accused (IRL) of personally being a misogynist simply because I am an anti-natalist.

You know, I had forgotten another possibility in my previous statement that identifying as child-free would make one more likely to be a feminist.  There is the possibility that those that identify as child-free share some other trait that makes them more likely to be misogynist, thus canceling any net effect on the likelihood of being feminist from the necessary support for access to birth-control.  I do not know what that trait might be so further study into the matter will be difficult.

Comment #134: Fatman  on  05/18  at  11:50 PM

In the past few weeks, as I’ve begun to improve my workplace metric (measured in “numbers” of items processed and in the revenue the company gets for services performed on them) yet become even more alienated and paranoid, I’ve also realized two big pluses about my job.

The first was inspired by my brother’s girlfriend, who attempted to fix her dying laptop herself. I realized how very liberating and educational it is to work with many dozens of dysfunctional, obsolete computers every day and poke around inside them without much worry I am going to break anything valuable. Most people won’t dare mess with their computers because they actually care if the things go on working! But we aren’t so much in the repair business as evaluation (and guaranteeing data security, by means of shredding the hard drive if necessary), you see.

That’s why our toolkit includes a screwdriver the size of a sledgehammer…

And the second insight?

The biggest workplace hypocrisy is the lip service paid to “work-life” balance.
Hector B.  on 05/18 at 06:29 PM

Thank you, Hector! Because we don’t have that at all!

Life? What’s a life?

At my workplace we achieve “work-life” balance by totally walking away from work when the workday ends and hoping the next workday will be eight hours and not nine, ten, or eleven…

G’night, all! Tomorrow is a nine-hour workday.

Welcome back, Amanda, I missed you. But I’m glad for you you were able to get away to Europe.

Comment #135: Mark Foxwell  on  05/19  at  12:27 AM

the way MY place is operated: Mob rule isn’t allowed.

AFAIK, the only ‘mob’ with control over this blog are Pam, Amanda, Jesse and Auguste, as owner/operators of this blog.

Perhaps they listen to the folks who comment here and are receptive to feedback.  Is that such a wrong approach? After all, if they listened to you, that’d be an example of allowing mob rule here, right?

Why are you so worried about how this blog approaches the troll problem?  You’re not jealous, are you? grin

Comment #136: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/19  at  01:04 AM

Re Child rearing:  Amanda mentioned Double-X.  As it happens I read this article there today:

A fascinating statistic: Today, even working mothers spend the same number of hours weekly with their kids as did stay-at-home moms in the 1950s—even though it’s today’s working mothers who are routinely charged with child abandonment.

I’m getting more and more convinced that mothers today have a rawer deal than ever before.  It’s as if the common saying actually were: “Women, through children, last.”

Comment #137: NY Expat  on  05/19  at  04:42 AM

Every single person alive today is alive because somebody took care of them and raised them.  Every single person who ever made it past infancy, and who will ever make it past infancy, had somebody working to make that possible.

Therefore, everyone who is alive benefited from a society that made raising children possible.  Furthermore, anyone who complains about how put-upon they are because somebody else infringes on them in some small way by raising children is a selfish fucking asshole.  Just because you choose to not raise children, that doesn’t free you from your moral obligation to put a little bit down to make raising children possible for others, just as it was for those who raised you.

Raising children is the hardest job on the planet, and the most necessary.  That extra hour you might have to work to make up the “slack” that another is using to keep our supply of future humans alive and well is absolutely nothing compared to the 24/7/365 lifetime career that is parenthood.

In other words, anyone whining about how hard those parents are making your life can go fuck yourselves.  And this is coming from someone who is childless, but isn’t so obtuse to have forgotten that somebody raised me.  Selfish assholes.  My god, that this has to be explained, like you all just forgot that you and every other human had to be raised, makes me ill.  Idiots.

P.S. to Uhura:  What was your race and sex again?  We all find that incredibly fascinating.

Comment #138: Jrod  on  05/19  at  05:45 AM

The child-free movement is NOT part of the patriarchy. Women who decide that parenting isn’t for them (not because they want to work oh-so-hard but just because they value other aspects of their life beyond child-rearing) are not doing so because they want to suck up to the patriarchy, because the patriarchy hates us. We earn the neverending scorn of other women who view us as unnatural and incomplete because our lives will never be “blessed” with children. Men everywhere take on the paternalistic tone of “you’ll change your mind” when they learn that our plans do not involve children.

All of those assholes complaining about how those two breeders brought little Madison to their perfect romantic dinner at TGI Fridays and the kid screamed the entire time and ruined everyone’s perfect romantic dinner are just that: assholes. And the childfree movement is not magically exempt from assholes or our culture’s need to hate on women, so yeah, they’re more likely to blame the mom for everything that annoys them about the kid. But it’s because they’re ASSHOLES, not because the child-free movement is part of the patriarchy.

But considering how strongly childfree people are swimming against the current of people who expect them to sit down, shut up, start breeding, and be happy about it… you are never going to be able to convince me that the men and women who go with their instincts on this matter and stay on the birth control are somehow “supporting the patriarchy” by doing so.

There are two parents in my office, both married fathers. And yes, a lot of the times, they’re because they have to drop the kid off at school, or trying to work from home because the kid is sick, etc. No one is prickly to them because it’s not our job to determine if they’re picking up the slack elsewhere by putting in time later or weekends or what-have-you—it’s the manager’s job to do that and seeing as how the dads still have a job, we have to assume that there’s no problem. Maybe it’s because we pride ourselves on not being assholes. Maybe it would be different if he were a mom instead of a dad: it’s not like we hold both parents to the same standards.  But for all of the child-free people in the office (either by choice or haven’t-gotten-around-to-it-yet or whatever) no one feels this seething resentment to the dads who occasionally have to take over as dad before they can get in and do their paid job. I think the reason is a difference in corporate culture: we simply aren’t a bunch of assholes. We do our jobs, we like it, and we like one another. Being childfree has nothing to do with it.

Comment #139: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  09:28 AM

I have to say that on the whole, workplaces should just treat us like adults and let us clock in and out according to our wishes and grant us time off to use however the hell we wish.  If I want to see an afternoon baseball game or get my legs waxed or see my son’s presentation on Denmark or be home sick, I’m still not there and I’ll get to whatever later.  Most workplaces can function pretty well with or without us, most deadlines are met, and life goes on.

Women get a lot of crap for their children doing things children do, like get sick at inconvenient times.  That’s a fact.  And people at the office watching them go off to attend the latest emergency can get snippy when they are expected to pick up some slack.  Usually it’s not a problem, but it is a problem when everyone is barely able to handle their own workload.  At those times, it’s the management that didn’t hire enough people.  And that’s because extra workers are so expensive.  And that’s because of the incomplete social safety net that government does and doesn’t provide.  And that’s because of… well, it’s certainly not just the fault of women having babies.  (Men also get this nonsense, but because it’s assumed that a woman was already asked and couldn’t handle it, it’s easier for us to get the time off for child-related absences.)

There is no convenient time to have children.  Children are never convenient, even when they’re healthy, good students, helpful at home, and grow very slowly.  Like all people, children are sometimes a pain in the ass.  They’re like coworkers even.  They eat your food, steal your time, tell you inane stories, are overly concerned with your approval, and tag along everywhere you go.  There is no “right time” to have children, and it is both selfish and selfless at the same time.  Still, expecting the world to cater to you is as absurd as expecting that there be no flexibility in workplace rules.  Lighten up, people: children happen.  So do handicapped people, sick people, and people who take a longer time to finish some tasks.  We aren’t all the same, but we’re mostly competent enough to do our fucking jobs even if we can’t all work the same schedules.

Comment #140: 3letterjon  on  05/19  at  09:54 AM

A fascinating statistic: Today, even working mothers spend the same number of hours weekly with their kids as did stay-at-home moms in the 1950s—even though it’s today’s working mothers who are routinely charged with child abandonment.

That confirms a suspicion I first had when I was discussing those ‘Time Warp Wives’ (remember them?) with friends last year, and with my own mum, who grew up in the 1950s and 60s. This ideal of the stay-at-home mother who devotes all her time to her children, rather than ‘selfishly’ going out to work, is utterly ahistorical. Before cheap labour-saving devices, there was far too much work to do at home.

My mum’s experience of growing up with a working-class stay-at-home mother (for the earlier part of her childhood; she did go to work later) was that if she wanted to spend any time with said mother, she had to pitch in with the housework, because there was no way a late 1950s/early 1960s SAHM had space in the day to just ‘spend time’ with her children.

Comment #141: Nic_C  on  05/19  at  10:03 AM

phylosopher ,

Think of it this way.  Children who have more school end up with better jobs.  They make more money and become better consumers.  They spend more money on whatever product or service your company provides, which makes your job more secure, and you make more money.  They also invent and produce things that you use in your own life.  Educating children is an investment.  Try thinking long-term instead of just short-term.  When we, as a society, spend money on quality education, we save money on court and welfare costs.  You are less likely to be robbed or murdered by a person who has had enough education that they can get a good enough job to cover their basic needs.  When other people do well, it benefits you personally.  Be a little more selfish and think about your benefit from these social programs.

Comment #142: bananacat  on  05/19  at  10:41 AM

Jrod, FTW. That was awesome.

Also, I’m with MP and HP - where are these offices where child-free people are picking up the slack for child-having people? Because, where I work, you have to put in 40 hours a week, minimum. One way or another, even if it means billing sick time or vacation time. And you only get a certain amount of those. So I don’t even see how the child-free could be being discriminated against… unless the child-having people are syphoning off the child-free people’s vacation time somehow.

It’s a rare day when I’m on the same side as Ms. Kate (although that’s twice now in one month!), but I, too, thought that Danica’s response was incredibly hostile. I mean, answering “we need shorter work days” with “but then the child-free people will be SPAT UPON like they already are” just doesn’t even make *sense* and betrays some kind of deep-seated issue. IMHO.

Comment #143: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  10:44 AM

First of all, Ms. Kate and purpleshoes,  with the attitudes - Fuck off - and Kristin are you still smarting from when I whupped your ass in the food and nutrition thread months ago that you pile on everytime I post?  Get a life outside the blogs, girl.

OTOH, Ms kate, I find your economic argument @ where the public funding comes from in European countries interesting.  I had always read that their individual tax rate was much higher (and in many cases, I applaud that, like for universal health care.)  If you’ve got a short link to a primer on say Sweden’s taxes please post, I’d appreciate it.
 
I’m noticing something real interesting too, because of my androgynous moniker, those of you who assume I’m a male (your pronouns are showing) make some interesting “misandrothist” assumptions, even though my points are often coming from a feminist base.  Those who assume I’m female respond in a different manner - whose biases are showing now?

One, most of you seemed locked into the idea that public ed is the best option.  Frankly, it isn’t.  For some it is downright detrimental, for most mediocre, at best.  Professionally I have to deal with the product of public ed on a daily basis.  (BTW, I have kids, two. The SO and I share stay-at-home duties, including schooling; we also work full-time, but flexible schedule jobs, albeit not at great pay.  ANd one of the kidlets explored public ed this year.)

Here are my observations, granted, based on my own community and knowing there are individual exceptions to these generalities.  But, here’s the main thesis: Public education which removes children from parents and places parents in an “away” workforce destroys both the family and the community. This is especially the case with a trend (at least here in the midwest)  towards grade centers and more centralized schools instead of neighborhood schools.  Combine this with school privacy rules and it makes for an isolating experience for parents and children.  As for funding kindergarten, well, in my state, it is actually not legally required.  Children at that age can benefit much more from one n one intensive teaching, as well as some socialization with peers.  Parents can teach these skills and more. 

I’m seriously concerned that we’re forgetting how to parent - this is the time of year that I talk to other parents, esp. mothers who present as “panicked” as they look for summer camps in which to deposit their kids.  Many of these are sahms.  They really seem unable to conceive that they might enjoy spending time with their children. And the dads who are grateful to the coach for “teaching their kid to throw” because they can’t.  (sorry for the stereotype about gender roles, but it is what exists in much of this area.) Come on, the kid is five, five! and they’ve never had anyone play catch with them?  And then of course there is the overscheduled, burnt out kid, too.

What of the parents who don’t want to and would prefer to work?  Great go for it, and pay for it.  What about the parent who wants a more nuanced child-rearing experience - and this is the case, wher, Obama-like I think we can find common ground - fighting for flextime, part-time or job sharing telecommuting, etc. seems to be the best bet.  As well as universal health care so that benefits aren’t tied to fulltime employment - heck I’m a Milbraith fan - I’d support a guaranteed basic wage -subsistence for everyone so that if someone wanted to take a year off - homeschool a kid, have a baby, write the great American novel, travel, whatever, one could do so. Paid sabbatical, IOW.  Not to mention changing zoning rules so that some businesses can be integrated into communities.

So my position is much more nuanced than socialism or libertarianism. A free public solution isn’t necessarily the best if it ends up cutting down our freedom to opt out - was it purpleshoes who suggested I would have to have the means of rugged individualism to do so - why should that be required?  Why not a more cafeteria approach to public goods and services?  Would we really want to come to the point where only the ultra rich could raise their own children and all others were whisked into the public system at the end of the delivery table?

Comment #144: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  10:51 AM

The problem isn’t so much parents who take time off work for their kids. The problem is how we deal with the men who are able to work 80 hour weeks because they have housewives that take care of everything for them. I see a lot of this going on in the sciences.

Yes, this is exactly the problem.  There is only one parent in my group at work other than my boss, and 100% of the burden of raising the children falls on his wife who doesn’t have a job.  He will often work late, and I feel sorry for his kids that they are being deprived of their father.  The only parenting he has done is to force his son to play baseball, which he doesn’t like, just so his son won’t get made fun of in high school.  I’ve seen it very often where fathers think they contribute to the family by earning more money but never spending any time with them, and that’s not what kids need.  Even in families where both parents work, I’ve seen multiple cases where the father works in a different state and is only home on the weekends.  Some fathers will work longer hours or two jobs so that they can afford for the mother to quit her job and still have many luxuries, but it’s just not a good trade-off.

Working conditions are certainly a problem, but the much bigger problem is that the majority of childcare still falls on the mother even when she works full-time.  Even on feminist or liberal blogs, it’s common to see the implicit assumption that the mother is the one who should quit her job, or even that all mothers want to quit their jobs when their children are young.  If fathers would do an equal share of childcare and housework, then mothers wouldn’t have to take off work as often.  There’s also still a lot of guilt and shaming about daycare, even among very liberal people.

Comment #145: bananacat  on  05/19  at  10:53 AM

phylosopher ,

Think of it this way.  Children who have more school end up with better jobs.  They make more money and become better consumers.  They spend more money on whatever product or service your company provides, which makes your job more secure, and you make more money.  They also invent and produce things that you use in your own life.  Educating children is an investment.  Try thinking long-term instead of just short-term.  When we, as a society, spend money on quality education, we save money on court and welfare costs.  You are less likely to be robbed or murdered by a person who has had enough education that they can get a good enough job to cover their basic needs.  When other people do well, it benefits you personally.  Be a little more selfish and think about your benefit from these social programs.
catgirl on 05/19 at 09:41 AM

Catgirl, I’m familiar with the arguments for public ed, especially as a good school system increases housing values.

As for your better (by which you seem to mean buy more) conspicuously consumptive consumers - a major problem of our dysfunctional economy and environmental damage - I suggest you rethink this. 

As for inventing and producing - public mass education (at least of the midwestern conformist variety) is actually detrimental to creativity and inventiveness.  Much of the average school is spent waiting for someone to give you something to do -  and punishing you for doing something outside the assigned task or time. 

And why are you assuming that I’m anti-education - I am an educator for fuck’s sakes.  But much of what the early indoctrination to group activities does is kill any inventiveness or initiative to think outside the box.  I know both homeschooled (pre-emption I’m talking homeschooled for academic NOT religious reasons) and public schooled kids.  Which one do I see as more contributive to the betterment of society, more creative and more self-disciplined - sorry, homeschooled kids hands down - the usual caveat - exceptions occur, of course.

As for the type of more education you are talking about, religious homeschoolers excepted,  homeschool kids (and private school) do better in post secondary and go on to grad degrees at a higher rate than public school grads.  Many religious homeschoolers are entrepreneurs or in trades much sooner.

Comment #146: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  11:04 AM

Even on feminist or liberal blogs, it’s common to see the implicit assumption that the mother is the one who should quit her job, or even that all mothers want to quit their jobs when their children are young.

And it works the other way, too. I *want* to be a SAHM and home-school (for various really good erasons, even though it’s nobody’s business, so why do I feel compelled to explain / apologize each time I mention it? well, read on) and the general feeling in *my* workplace is that:

1. I’m a gold-digger who wants a man to support her while she plays video games all day. This is largely from the single guys. (Um, what? My SAHM had barely a moment to herself to read a book, and I was an only child!)

2. I’m lazy - Betty, Bonnie, and Barbara all manage to work AND have kids, so why can’t I? This is from the married guys. (Well, gee, maybe BB&B;are all completely different people from me, with different life, health, and relationship dynamics.)

3. I’m a brainwashed Stepford Wife Anti-Feminist Patriarchy Supporter. This from online-only women. (Who will, of course, get my just desserts when my husband leaves me high and dry when I get old and ugly. Nice.)

Really, there’s just no way to win as a woman in this society. Everything you do is wrong. If you are child-free, you’re a cold heartless bitch. If you enjoy working, you hate your children and are abandoning them. If you enjoy staying home to raise your children, then you are a lazy bitch whose choices are an indictment on working women. It’s not so bad when it’s just people around you, but even the S.O. can be infected by this shit and it hurts. None of us are immune from the nasty attitudes.

Comment #147: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  11:06 AM

phylosopher, look at a history book.  A lot of public schools are bad by our standards, but consider the fact that we have a nearly universal literacy rate, which never happened before the 20th century.  If people can’t afford private school and there’s no free public school, we’ll end up with a generation of kids that doesn’t even have the basic education that we take for granted.  Homeschooling is not an option for everyone, and it’s certainly not the best solution for every family.  A lot of parents are not as good at teaching as a teacher is.  Some parents actually want their kids to do better than them.  Even though I’m a well-educated person, I still realize that I can’t teach my future children everything, and they can learn a lot of valuable things from qualified adults.

There are also other benefits to school, summer camp, and daycare besides just education.  When I was a child, I had only one brother and one other child in my neighborhood.  I loved going to school and daycare to be with other kids, and also other adults.  My life didn’t revolve around just two parents, and I got to experience the care of several different adults.  I’m still close with my two childhood babysitters; they are like grandmothers to me.  You’re really buying into the shaming when you say that parents “dump” their kids in summer camp.  Did it ever occur to you that kids might enjoy summer camp?  Maybe they want to spend to time with their friends there, and meet new people.  Maybe they want to have a little independence.  Parents should not have to feel guilt when other members of society contribute to the care of their children.

Comment #148: bananacat  on  05/19  at  11:13 AM

My mum’s experience of growing up with a working-class stay-at-home mother (for the earlier part of her childhood; she did go to work later) was that if she wanted to spend any time with said mother, she had to pitch in with the housework, because there was no way a late 1950s/early 1960s SAHM had space in the day to just ‘spend time’ with her children.
Nic_C on 05/19 at 09:03 AM

And this is bad, Nic C?
Why?  Let’s take one task (yeah, I’m a child of those times, so I speak from experience.) Take laundry:
sort clothes: great categorization exercise
manual transfer but automated ringer machine: learning a process
carry clothes outside to hang on line: leg strength and cooperation
hang clothes: biceps workout
will it rain before they dry: weather awareness
fold clothes: manual dexterity, small motor skills

Can the kid always grow up and get the automated version - sure, we all did.  But isn’t it a god thing to have skills if needed?

One MIL I knew refused to have an automatic dishwasher in her home - claimed she would never get to know her DILs with out the time of manual dishwashing camaraderie.  NOw granted, I would like to see a task like this more gender neutral, but really there is nothing like a side-by-side shared manual task to break down some barriers, better than face to face conversation.

Comment #149: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  11:14 AM

Really, there’s just no way to win as a woman in this society. Everything you do is wrong.

Oh, I know.  The sad thing is, we’re often getting conflicting messages from the very same person.  It’s not just about parenting either.  There’s huge pressure to sexy but not sexual, and to be fashionable but practical.  It’s especially bad when it comes to parenting because everyone thinks that children are just so fragile that if you make one mistake they’ll end up being unemployed, single, unhappy, and living in your basement forever.  And of course, all parenting mistakes are considered the fault of the mother.  There’s so much “shaming for your own good” when it comes to so many issues, many of them completely trivial.  It doesn’t make people better parents; it just makes them feel constantly guilty, even after their children turn out completely successful.

Comment #150: bananacat  on  05/19  at  11:22 AM

phylosopher, look at a history book.  A lot of public schools are bad by our standards, but consider the fact that we have a nearly universal literacy rate, which never happened before the 20th century.  If people can’t afford private school and there’s no free public school, we’ll end up with a generation of kids that doesn’t even have the basic education that we take for granted.  Homeschooling is not an option for everyone, and it’s certainly not the best solution for every family.  A lot of parents are not as good at teaching as a teacher is.  Some parents actually want their kids to do better than them.  Even though I’m a well-educated person, I still realize that I can’t teach my future children everything, and they can learn a lot of valuable things from qualified adults.

There are also other benefits to school, summer camp, and daycare besides just education.  When I was a child, I had only one brother and one other child in my neighborhood.  I loved going to school and daycare to be with other kids, and also other adults.  My life didn’t revolve around just two parents, and I got to experience the care of several different adults.  I’m still close with my two childhood babysitters; they are like grandmothers to me.  You’re really buying into the shaming when you say that parents “dump” their kids in summer camp.  Did it ever occur to you that kids might enjoy summer camp?  Maybe they want to spend to time with their friends there, and meet new people.  Maybe they want to have a little independence.  Parents should not have to feel guilt when other members of society contribute to the care of their children.
catgirl on 05/19 at 10:13 AM

Catgirl:

You seem really insistent on “never in a school.”  I’m saying homeschool (hs) incorporated into or leading to higher ed.  You seem to have conveniently overlooked that part of my post.  You are also making assumptions that homeschool means isolation, or no outside teachers, or no summer camps - hardly.  My kidlets pick and choose summer camps - if they want.  Drama, latin, robotics, and sports.
but these are choices.  Please read what I wrote - these are parents in a state of panic who ask about other camps because one was filled and they just can’t imagine what would happen/what they would do if little Johnny or Janey is home. 

Homeschoolers tend to be more social and more at ease with people of ALL ages.  Think about how artificial public school is again as a rule, contact only or primarily with one’s age cohort - whenever else will this happen?

  If the literacy you are interested in is “OPEN HERE” sure.  A lot of teachers shouldn’t be teachers!  Not to mention that that improved ed and literacy rate and family planning is the reason homeschooling is more feasible and popular today.  You really seem to be misreading or glossing what I’m saying.

Comment #151: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  11:26 AM

Essie—From what I’ve read the problem is mostly in law firms and other places that already demand punishing hours from their employees, and where work Absolutely Must Be Done On Time. So if mom has to run to pick up Junior, and the deposition is tomorrow and those documents aren’t done, then someone else in the office (one who doesn’t have to go pick up Junior) will have to get that stuff done.

I dunno, I’m a little amazed that someone would go to work for a law firm thinking that their free time would be respected in any way, but I suppose if it really was a chronic behavior that parents were allowed to go home to tend to their families and the work that they were expected to do in those late hours were dumped on those without kids then I can see someone getting pissy about it.

Comment #152: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  11:27 AM

MP, okay, I can see that. I hadn’t thought about Work Absolutely Must Be Done On Time places. And it would suck to keep getting stuck with work over that. But I think it’s incredibly naive to think that the parental people aren’t getting totally punished later, one way or another. I’m sure there is some workplace, somewhere, where this is the case, but I don’t see it.

On the other hand, I’ve seen people online say it’s “unfair” for parents to be able to take time off to have the baby.

Why can’t we have a vacation like Europe does? Please?

Comment #153: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  11:35 AM

phylosopher, you didn’t read what I wrote.  You are putting words in my mouth.  I never said that homeschooled are unsocial or that you isolate your kids.  I read your comment, and it sounded like a bunch of shaming for parents who actually think school is a good thing for their kids.

Comment #154: bananacat  on  05/19  at  11:49 AM

Before cheap labour-saving devices, there was far too much work to do at home.

I remember reading that from, say 1890 to 1960, the amount of time spent on housework didn’t change with the advent of cheap labor saving devices—housewives’ standards changed. Instead of beating the rugs on a clothesline twice a year, women vacuumed once a week. Time freed up by the automatic washer and dryer was spent dusting. And so on.

A side note of mystification: Half a century after the invention of permanent press, people are still ironing. Society has adapted by putting an iron and board in every hotel room.

The child-free movement is NOT part of the patriarchy.

If you think the role of women in the patriarchy is to be barefoot and pregnant, this is correct. However, the boss-servant relationship is as patriarchal as they come. Being child-free is at least compatible with the patriarchy, because the person without competing commitments is infinitely available to work. Consider all the pre-1970s secretaries on movies and TV: Joan Blondell, Ann B. Davis, Nancy Kulp. Being child- and spouse-free meant they could devote themselves to their employers.

Comment #155: Hector B.  on  05/19  at  12:06 PM

Being child-free is at least compatible with the patriarchy, because the person without competing commitments is infinitely available to work.

aaand this is why I said that I don’t want ot be picking up the slack for those who DO choose to have kids.
If we’re going to have vacation time - it should be distributed equally amongst everyone. Yes, even those who, thanks to how Ms. Kate would define being “feminist” are oppressing those who do choose to have kids with their choice to NOT HAVE KIDS.

Because nothing says “I’m love the patriarchy!” than making your own choices as a woman and not allowing yourself to be treasted like a doormat by those who think that they have a right to tell you how to live your life.

I actually AM pro-choice. My choice is not having kids. Sorry if that’s so offensive to some. I don’t want to babysit your kids, I don’t want to have your kids impact MY life. I refuse to believe that just because someone decides to reproduce that doesn’t make them just the same person they already were. being a parent doesn’t imbue you with magical powers and it certainly doesn’t give you the right to tell ME who or what I am.

Parents can hoot all day about how “oppressed” they are but that doesn’t make it so. It’s their choice to have a kid - just like it’s MY choice to not.

Comment #156: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/19  at  12:12 PM

If we’re going to have vacation time - it should be distributed equally amongst everyone…I don’t want to have your kids impact MY life. I refuse to believe that just because someone decides to reproduce that doesn’t make them just the same person they already were. being a parent doesn’t imbue you with magical powers and it certainly doesn’t give you the right to tell ME who or what I am.

Which - I’m pretty sure - everyone is advocating for: More Vacation Time For Everyone. Can you put the HUGE chip on your shoulder aside to show where anybody is saying “Parents need more vacation time and those bastard child free people should pick up the slack to make it happen”? Please??

You seem to be treating “work” as some kind of zero-sum thing where if one group gets more vacation, another group has to fill in. Have you heard of Europe, by any chance?

Comment #157: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  12:22 PM

Also, phylosopher, as someone who was homeschooled (for academic AND religious reasons) and as someone who plans to homeschool (for academic reasons only), I would like to personally ask you to stay off of the homeschool-advocates’ side.

Because you make us sound like jackasses. No offense.

Comment #158: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  12:28 PM

I dunno, I’m a little amazed that someone would go to work for a law firm thinking that their free time would be respected in any way, but I suppose if it really was a chronic behavior that parents were allowed to go home to tend to their families and the work that they were expected to do in those late hours were dumped on those without kids then I can see someone getting pissy about it.

When I graduated from undergrad, I was recruited into interviewing for a odd little paralegal program at a highly respected law firm. Basically, you worked for them as a paralegal for a couple of years, and then they helped you get accepted to and pay for law school.  At that point, I was considering law school.

During the recruitment process, we were given very clear information about the expectations of the program. Basically, YOUR JOB WAS YOUR LIFE. You stayed in the office each evening until whatever partner you were working with was finished for the day and released you. Workdays that lasted until 10pm, midnight, were common.

I was offered that job, and was at the same time offered another job doing technical writing for 20K less. I took the job doing technical writing, and then I went for my master’s degree in computer science instead of law school.

Comment #159: hp  on  05/19  at  12:36 PM

“And of course, all parenting mistakes are considered the fault of the mother.”
-catgirl on 05/19 at 10:22 AM

catgirl: um, not quite. i don’t know about you, but when discussing troubled youth and related concepts, the phrase “deadbeat dad” gets thrown around a lot. in fact one hears mostly about the mother working and trying to raise her children after the father walks out, far more than the other way around.

now, i agree on the need for more flexible schedules, and people working together for the common good and helping your fellow man (future reference: man as in human, other people). at my last job, employees could set a schedule that fit their life (granted, there were some restrictions, ‘cuz someone has to be working at all times). also, coworkers really watched out for each other, and pitched in to help the parent or other caretaker who was called away on an emergency, AND WITHOUT BITCHING. i for one worked the evening shift, not just because it had the most slots to fill, but because i have no kids of my own (not even a girlfriend….*sigh*) and i know that by me working a parent will have time to raise their kid(s) right.  maybe it’s because it’s Nebraska, but family is very important, and many (especially local) employers do focus on flexible scheduling. i for one think more employers should look into it.

as for education, phylosopher touts midwestern education as conformist and just a method of breaking a child’s individuality. wrong. I attended a public school through an opt-in program (i didn’t live in the district, but my parents wanted my siblings and i to attend), and the opportunity and encouragement for individuality, expression and growth was amazing. a big part of that was flexibility; my school was known as a trend setter in that it was the first (at least in the region) to adopt modular scheduling, where students did have a buffet-style approach to education (of course there were required courses). this granted kids the opportunity to explore their interests, and take a more specialized approach to their education, basically putting them in control. a student could take a full day of classes, or leave some open “mods” during the day to do schoolwork or even just hang out in one of the material centers to learn and get assistance from teachers. oh, and teachers loved it too; because of the scheduling method, they could have a much needed break during the day, and more freedom to prepare for class or *gasp* call home or their kids at lunchtime to talk with them, and see how their day has been.

ok, whoah, ranting.

but even our public schools are good. teachers work hard to prepare kids for their futures. it’s just a shame that many children don’t have parents their to raise them and teach them to be responsible, considerate adults.

what would help solve the dilemma of a two income household, is if the cost of living wasn’t so damn much higher than the average income. when my grandparents were young, a couple could buy a house on a single income. once they had children and they were school age, my grandmother took up a job at a school, so that she could work and then be home for her children. my grandfather didn’t have to work so much that he couldn’t see his kids; he’d come home in the afternoon and spend the rest of the day with his kids, raising them. nowadays, in order to have a “traditional” family setup, where one works and the other takes care of hearth and home and the kids, the couple has to live in an apartment. unless one person works 80 hours a week to pay mortgage and keep food on the table and clothes on everyone’s backs. and, the idea that men go to work and women work on the home stems from, how do i put this, instinctive? something like that, but it’s a feeling that’s there before society puts its two cents in so it works for now. an instinct in men (myself included) to go out there and work to support my family, so my wife doesn’t have to. now i know for a fact that stay at home moms don’t sit around eating bon-bons. i watched my mother spend her day cleaning and making sure we ate and bills were paid (back then, my dad got off work at the same time other businesses closed), and took care of the home front in general. also, again from personal experience, in general women are more nurturing than men (though of course, exceptions exist), which is important during those early, formative years. i learned from my parents that parenting, and being married in general, is a partnership in that each takes care of different aspects of daily life. it’s just a shame that it costs so much to live that children suffer, because they aren’t learning how to be a good man or good woman, or how to live with the rest of humanity.

Comment #160: The Gray Train  on  05/19  at  12:56 PM

Essie—the European model is not necessarily ideal. In fact, as I recall, a couple of years ago in France, which is the epitome of the European model, a bunch of people died when a heat wave coincided with the national “holiday” month and the hospitals were understaffed because all the doctors were off on vacation. Yes, it would be wonderful if we could all take off for a month, but there are certain services that are simply essential. You can’t have hospitals, fire departments, police departments, air traffic controllers, sanitation workers, and people who run utilities just take off for a month or two. And a fair number of those positions require punishing hours and > 40 hr weeks, and are understaffed to begin with.

And the people who work those jobs are going to have varying family obligations. You’re going to have surgeons with no children and surgeons with children. And if the surgeons with children have to stay home because their kids are sick, or have to leave early because it’s their turn to pick up the kids from gymboree, or are late because they forgot to grab the kid’s lunch on the way out the door, then there’s nothing to be done about it. They have to take care of the kids, and someone has to perform the surgery.

It would be great if there were better comp time setups for people who have to pick up the slack for those who have kids: If I have to perform that laproscopy because Dr. Dad couldn’t make it in on time because Jr. had a half day, then in a perfect world, I would be allowed to take off those hours at a later date and Dr. Dad would fill in for me. Except that’s not how it works. Jobs like this always have more work, and the work environment would turn particularly hostile if it became a sort of hours tit-for-tat between those with children and those without.

Comment #161: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  01:03 PM

Yes, it would be wonderful if we could all take off for a month, but there are certain services that are simply essential. You can’t have hospitals, fire departments, police departments, air traffic controllers, sanitation workers, and people who run utilities just take off for a month or two.

Well, far be it from me to think I’m a genius or anything, but did it occur to anyone to stagger the schedules a little? I mean, really. I get your point about understaffing but, you know, we could hire more people. The CEO for corporations wouldn’t get quite as many million a year, and the US government wouldn’t have as much disposable income to invade other countries, but I’m a commie like that. smile

Comment #162: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  01:14 PM

Because nothing says “I’m love the patriarchy!” than making your own choices as a woman and not allowing yourself to be treasted like a doormat by those who think that they have a right to tell you how to live your life.

Like you are when you whinge about childed people messing up your work life rather than attacking the real problem - if there is a real problem - of how your workplace operates.  After all, who is picking up the slack when you use your vacation time in a large chunk rather than little pieces?

See - attacking other women for exercising their right to reproductive autonomy is not feminism and is not the right answer to employer stupidity.  Growing a backbone and demanding sensible and equitable policies toward leave time in the workplace regardless of choices or reasons for absence is the answer.  To do otherwise is to demand that mothers leave the workplace or that women not have children - neither of which is feminist.

Comment #163: Ms Kate  on  05/19  at  01:15 PM

After all, who is picking up the slack when you use your vacation time in a large chunk rather than little pieces?

Danica seems to be claiming that the child-ed people get more vacation time than her, possibly via book-keeping shenanigans.

I’m skeptical. I’ve yet to meet the employer who was all fuzzy-kittens-free-time for parents. On the other hand, I have met plenty of employers who liked to create the impression that things worked that way, in order to increase “competition” (i.e. hostility) among the employees.

Comment #164: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  01:24 PM

Hey I have a solution for this whole parenting vs non-parenting argument.

“From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.”

Comment #165: BlackBloc  on  05/19  at  01:31 PM

The problem isn’t so much parents who take time off work for their kids. The problem is how we deal with the men who are able to work 80 hour weeks because they have [s]patriarchy-enablers[/s] housewives that take care of everything for them. I see a lot of this going on in the sciences.

Just….wow…

Comment #166: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  01:59 PM

BlackBloc, are you some kind of communist????

Comment #167: Ms Kate  on  05/19  at  02:00 PM

I’ll feed the troll.

Uhura, what exactly was the point of your “patriarchy-enablers” addition to that quote?

Comment #168: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  02:02 PM

Every single person alive today is alive because somebody took care of them and raised them.  Every single person who ever made it past infancy, and who will ever make it past infancy, had somebody working to make that possible.

Therefore, everyone who is alive benefited from a society that made raising children possible.  Furthermore, anyone who complains about how put-upon they are because somebody else infringes on them in some small way by raising children is a selfish fucking asshole.  Just because you choose to not raise children, that doesn’t free you from your moral obligation to put a little bit down to make raising children possible for others, just as it was for those who raised you.

Raising children is the hardest job on the planet, and the most necessary.  That extra hour you might have to work to make up the “slack” that another is using to keep our supply of future humans alive and well is absolutely nothing compared to the 24/7/365 lifetime career that is parenthood.

In other words, anyone whining about how hard those parents are making your life can go fuck yourselves.  And this is coming from someone who is childless, but isn’t so obtuse to have forgotten that somebody raised me.  Selfish assholes.  My god, that this has to be explained, like you all just forgot that you and every other human had to be raised, makes me ill.  Idiots.

Quoted because it’s dead right.

P.S. to Uhura:  What was your race and sex again?  We all find that incredibly fascinating.

Race: Human
Sex: Time Permitting

Comment #169: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:03 PM

Just….wow…

How is that a wow?

My husband has basically been told that he’s not rising further because he’s unwilling to be that person. All of the upper managers in his (fortune 100) corporation intentionally don’t go home until their kids are in bed, intentionally take business trips that take them away from home for weeks at a time, and have stay-at-home wives who probably couldn’t otherwise be in the work force.

The younger guys in the department who are more like my husband—who are willing to trade off days home when the kid gets sick, who go to events that daycare throws for the kids, who have working wives—have been told that they will be penalized for that. His boss has asked him multiple times when I’m going to get with it and quit my job.

Comment #170: hp  on  05/19  at  02:03 PM

I mean, really. I get your point about understaffing but, you know, we could hire more people.

For professional services like doctors, air traffic controllers, etc, I don’t think the solution is just “more bodies.”

The point isn’t that there isn’t enough vacation time, because vacations are things you generally plan for. Kids have a way of taking huge chunks out of your personal time off because they like to get sick.

A LOT.

And they can’t look after themselves when they’re sick. And they need to be picked up from school because they’re sick and they need to go to the doctor’s because it could be one of those pesky childhood diseases.

So if you have a doctor or an air traffic controller who has a kid and the call comes in that the kid needs to be taken care of, then it’s not like that surgery can be postponed or that flight can stay in a holding pattern until you get back. Someone HAS to take over, and it’s spur of the moment and it’s not something that can be sorted out with scheduling ahead of time. And that someone might end up staying late, or coming in on their off day, etc, to make sure that it’s taken over. And usually that falls on someone who doesn’t have kids, because a person who has kids usually can’t stay late because they have their own family obligations that have to be met.

So now we have a situation where Dr. Essie worked a 50 hour week, but Dr. Mighty worked a 60 hour week because she had to cover for Dr. Essie had to go home and take care of the little Elephants who came down with a nasty case of the Plague, and Dr. Pony had to cover for her and also meet her own patient obligations. So in THEORY, Dr. Mighty should be able to work 50 hours the next week and Dr. Essie could work the 60, except Dr. Essie still has fixed family obligations of being home and taking care of the kids that are still there the next week. So Dr. Essie will work 55 hours and (hopefully) Dr. Mighty will work 55 hours, and because they’re salaries employees, Dr. Mighty doesn’t get to see her extra hours translate into extra money, she’s not getting that time back, and she can’t *not* do the work.

Now, it may be that Dr. Essie is getting all sorts of shit from Dr. Jesse or Dr. Amanda because she’s taking a lot of time off of work to take care of the little Elephants, but Dr. Mighty isn’t seeing that. And they can’t set up a system by which Dr. Mighty gets a little extra comp time because that would mean the patients would suffer, and it would also set up a hostile environment where Dr. Essie feels that Dr. Mighty is being unfairly rewarded with time that Dr. Essie was taking out of her vacation bank anyway. And they have been trying to hire another doctor but there just aren’t enough doctors looking for jobs. So Dr. Mighty has to eat it and like it.

Comment #171: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  02:06 PM

Sorry, I need to add a correction there.

His former boss was the one who was just obsessed with the idea that I needed to quit my job and stay home with the kid. His current boss is cool with it, and his current boss’s kid is now in daycare with the kid. His current boss was recently brought in from outside, too.

Comment #172: hp  on  05/19  at  02:11 PM

Really, there’s just no way to win as a woman in this society. Everything you do is wrong.

:( This is 100% accurate.
It seems that women are required to be all things to all people…

Comment #173: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:12 PM

hp, my “wow” was at the hostility which came through in that comment about housewives. We should be angry at a society & a workplace which sets things up that way rather than being angry at the workers & their “enablers” who try to fit into the system.

Comment #174: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:14 PM

Public Service Announcement:

Essie & anyone else who refers to me as a troll will be dining alone.

Comment #175: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:16 PM

Uhura, speaking as a potential SAHM, I saw no hostility in HP’s “housewives” comment. Odd that you did, but it fits with your pattern of needling people in comments for attention.

MP, I get your scenario. But I still don’t understand how more headcount wouldn’t reduce the 50-60 hour weeks AND make OMGKIDEMERGENCY less of a problem. And speaking as a flex-time employee, I can honestly testify that the parents DO make that time up. At least as far as I can see.

Comment #176: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  02:18 PM

Bullshit Essie. He typed patriarcy enablers & crossed it out for “housewives”.

If my comments “needle” you, then please skip over them and stop paying attention to me.

Comment #177: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:26 PM

Criticizing people for creating people is not the same as attacking women for exercising their right to reproductive autonomy, unless criticism and attack are synonymous.  Many child-free people strongly disapprove of the decision to create a human, but that disapproval does not take the form of laws curtailing reproductive freedom.  Reproductive freedom does not include freedom from criticism for reproductive choices.

Also, while it is almost universally true that the brunt of child rearing work is foisted upon the mother, I think it would be a good idea to move away from the idea that creating a human is a woman’s decision, and that only women can be criticized for the decision.  While the woman has the veto power over what she uses her body for, the decision to reproduce is typically made by a woman and a man, and both are culpable.

Comment #178: Fatman  on  05/19  at  02:26 PM

patriarchy - typo

Comment #179: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:27 PM

Essie, I don’t want my doctors and air traffic controllers to be just warm bodies put there to increase headcount. I want them to be trained professionals who know what they’re doing.

If there just aren’t enough doctors to give everyone fuzzy 40-hour weeks with lots of flex time for everyone (which there aren’t), then I’m not interested in just “more bodies”

Comment #180: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  02:32 PM

I wasn’t the originator of the housewives comment . . . but you know, you do find something there. I’ve met the wives of some of the men I was discussing in my comment, and talking with them does often feel like a timewarp back to the 1950s.  The men who want women in the home met up and marry the women who think that a woman’s place is in the house.  And then the corporate world tends to reward that combination, because the men basically get to act like they are childfree, but have the respectability of being married-men-with-children.

And while I think that being a housewife _is_ a valid choice, if it is a choice you are able and willing to make . . . I don’t think that also believing that _all_ women should be in the house is anything but patriarchy-enabling.

Comment #181: hp  on  05/19  at  02:33 PM

Oh, Uhura isn’t trolling - that was my quote. When you devote your life to being unpaid labor for a man, which frees him to work 80 hours a week, that hurts me. Why? Because I don’t have the luxury of free labor, so I can’t work 80 hours a week. It’s really that simple. I suppose not every single housewife does this. Maybe you save 50% of the housework so your husband has to come home and do the dishes and scrub the toilet. Maybe your Nigel is an angel and comes home early to change diapers. But that’s not the typical scenario, and you damn well know it.

Comment #182: Entomologista  on  05/19  at  02:34 PM

hp, I realize you were not the originator.

Most people are sheep who have elected to play the game. Most resolve their mental discomfort / cognitive idssonance by adapting beliefs which align with the game.

I think the system is to blame. The system is set up for(successful) people to have their lives take a back seat to their career (or at least it needs to appear that way to the folks who “matter”).


I like the way you put this:

...the men basically get to act like they are childfree, but have the respectability of being married-men-with-children.

Comment #183: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:37 PM

Oh, Uhura isn’t trolling - that was my quote. When you devote your life to being unpaid labor for a man, which frees him to work 80 hours a week, that hurts me. Why? Because I don’t have the luxury of free labor, so I can’t work 80 hours a week. It’s really that simple. I suppose not every single housewife does this. Maybe you save 50% of the housework so your husband has to come home and do the dishes and scrub the toilet. Maybe your Nigel is an angel and comes home early to change diapers. But that’s not the typical scenario, and you damn well know it.

So - does everyone smell the hostility now? This person thinks housewives hurt him & he’s admitting it here.

Solution: Get yourself a patriarchy enabler / housewife

Also: The enbaler is “paid” - she gets food, clothing, shelter, and status

Comment #184: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:39 PM

By the way - not all men are shiftless neanderthals who don’t do their fair share. I am married ot a neanderthal who does more than his fair share - so there.

(((sticking tongue out)))

Comment #185: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  02:41 PM

Uhura, again, speaking as a potential SAHM, housewives DO enable the patriarchy. It’s a fact. If a woman quits her job (as I am intending to do), so that her husband can concentrate on his career, then it enables a system where men hold the power and women do not.

Now, I’m taking a big risk, trusting that my husband won’t dump me ten years from now, and have to face not being employable at that point. But, for my own situation, I’m not very employable NOW, for health reasons, so it’s less ofa risk than you might think. But I’m under no illusions that our situation isn’t going to benefit the patriarchal women-are-breeders society at large - making it easier to discriminate against men and women alike. The patriarchy hurts men, too.

Am I hostile to say that housewives enable the patriarchy? I must be one of those self-haters, then.

It’s a choice. The fact that the patriarchy uses it for bad ends doesn’t make it a bad choice. It just means that we need to change societal attitudes. IMHO.

Or, shorter me, stop trolling.

If there just aren’t enough doctors to give everyone fuzzy 40-hour weeks with lots of flex time for everyone (which there aren’t), then I’m not interested in just “more bodies”

MP, I’m assuming that there ARE trained professionals available and they aren’t being hired because it’s cheaper to keep everyone on a mandatory we-pay-you-for-40-but-you-work-60 schedule.

So - does everyone smell the hostility now? This person thinks housewives hurt him & he’s admitting it here.

Housewives “hurt” Entomologista by providing fodder for the Patriarchy to insist that she make the same choice. Just like Bristol “hurt” teenage girls by providing a poster child for “keeping my baby because it’s the right thing to do”. But that doesn’t mean it’s any less her choice or she’s a bad person. It’s just a fact.

Comment #186: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  02:47 PM

MP, I’m assuming that there ARE trained professionals available and they aren’t being hired because it’s cheaper to keep everyone on a mandatory we-pay-you-for-40-but-you-work-60 schedule.

But there aren’t. Every indication is that there is a labor shortage in those areas. You don’t hear about unemployed doctors sitting around on the couch all day drinking beer hoping that some hospital will call with some work for them. We’re not there as a society, and there’s no point in pretending that we are.

For most of the services I’ve described with the exception of Air Traffic controllers (thank YOU Ronald Reagan), there simply aren’t enough people with the training to fill the spaces.

Comment #187: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  02:53 PM

MP, well, if we’re talking about a should world, I also think doctor training should be government-subsidized. smile But I’ll defer on the doctor thing if you say that we’ve got a shortage.

In my own field (engineering), we do indeed prefer to work people overtime (even paid overtime) to hiring new bodies. Because - in the short term - it’s cheaper. And in the long term, the managers have all retired.

Comment #188: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  03:03 PM

Question: What is “trolling” exactly…I mean does trolling = “disagreeing”?

If my statement is: Blame the game / system rather than the players / victims, how is THAT trolling?

The truth is, people will not opt out of the game. They will try to have food, clothing, shelter, and comforts for their families. So housewives will enable & the men will do the dance so long as that’s what you have to do to be “successful”. The system and the rules need to change.

Anyway - many of these conversations would be very masturbatory if everyone basically agreed on everything. I have yet to call anyone who disagreed with me a “troll” because I think a troll is someone who is not even engaging in the conversations. I see a “troll” as someone who is deliberately derailing topics.

Comment #189: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  03:09 PM

Yeah, but I’m a big believer in following your calling. I don’t feel that we should force/entice people into being doctors if they really want to be landscapers. Making it easier for people to BE doctors if that’s what they want to do and are qualified for, that’s fine.

Comment #190: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  03:09 PM

Essie, you need to think long & hard about that choice you’re about to make. The numbers say in 10 years, your husband will likely trade you in for the younger model.

Comment #191: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  03:11 PM

In my own field (engineering), we do indeed prefer to work people overtime (even paid overtime) to hiring new bodies. Because - in the short term - it’s cheaper. And in the long term, the managers have all retired.

Well, it’s a short term problem in many ways. Without good advance planning, you’re not going to admit you’re short-staffed until the fact you’re short-staffed is hitting you over the head. And THEN, throwing more bodies at the problem isn’t a good solution . . .  because nobody has the time to bring those bodies up to speed.

Comment #192: hp  on  05/19  at  03:15 PM

Mighty Ponygirl:

All of those assholes complaining about how those two breeders brought little Madison to their perfect romantic dinner at TGI Fridays and the kid screamed the entire time and ruined everyone’s perfect romantic dinner are just that: assholes.

Wait a minute. A couple of parents bring their kid to a restaurant, the kid screams the entire time, and the people who complain about that are assholes?!

I’d really like to know when it became “okay” for children to treat every public space like a playground. I don’t care that it’s TGI Friday’s and not Chez Panisse. My parents wouldn’t have tolerated that in Burger King. Teach your little darlings the concept of an indoor voice, please. If they have a meltdown, take them outside. I don’t give a shit if it’s your only night out all month. It might be mine as well, and just because I can’t afford Chez Panisse doesn’t mean I should have to listen to your kid shriek for an hour, then go home with a headache, and have paid $10+ a person for that dubious pleasure.

And don’t give me the “Kids are kids, they cry, you’re intolerant, you want society to cater to you” bullshit. You’re the parent. How about parenting them, instead of expecting that everyone else will put up with their noise?

Comment #193: Nobody in Particular  on  05/19  at  03:22 PM

Because my experience is that if the kid gets fussy and screams for a minute the parents usually take the kid outside to let them calm down but Childfree Assholes translate that into “the kid screamed the whole time. Gawd.”

Comment #194: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  03:28 PM

Also, phylosopher, as someone who was homeschooled (for academic AND religious reasons) and as someone who plans to homeschool (for academic reasons only), I would like to personally ask you to stay off of the homeschool-advocates’ side.

Because you make us sound like jackasses. No offense.

Essie Elephant on 05/19 at 11:28 AM

Accusing someone like that without a reason makes you look like that jackass, Essie.  If you disagree with what I’ve suggested - i.e. a differnet model of public education instead of the “it’s not working and it’s fairly expensive, but what we need is more of it via longer hours and days” then please, explain why, based on what I’ve posted. 

Offense taken.

Comment #195: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  03:28 PM

Yeah, but I’m a big believer in following your calling. I don’t feel that we should force/entice people into being doctors if they really want to be landscapers. Making it easier for people to BE doctors if that’s what they want to do and are qualified for, that’s fine.

Oh, absolutely. It’s just that I know a lot of smart, motivated people who would like to be doctors, but it means going into debt for decades and they just can’t.

Essie, you need to think long & hard about that choice you’re about to make. The numbers say in 10 years, your husband will likely trade you in for the younger model.

Good thing I don’t treat life like a betting game, then. Seriously, you don’t know my situation from Eve, and I expect you to assume that I am making the best choice. Just don’t expect me to say that my decision isn’t helpful to the patriarchy. It’s one of those “Babies aren’t evil just because Hitler liked them” sorts of situations.

Without good advance planning, you’re not going to admit you’re short-staffed until the fact you’re short-staffed is hitting you over the head. And THEN, throwing more bodies at the problem isn’t a good solution . . .  because nobody has the time to bring those bodies up to speed.

Frustrating, but true. And it’s the excuse management has been using for years against hiring someone new. Because they wouldn’t be helpful right away, so what’s the point? Urgh.

Offense taken.

Well, you can’t please everybody all of the time, I suppose. Yakking about mothers who are “in a panic” at the thought of “spending time with Johnny” makes you sound like you think you know what’s going on in people’s lives enough to judge their emotions and motivations. But how that is any different from your behavior - as I recall it - in the breast-feeding thread, I don’t know.

Comment #196: Essie Elephant  on  05/19  at  03:39 PM

as for education, phylosopher touts midwestern education as conformist and just a method of breaking a child’s individuality. wrong. I attended a public school through an opt-in program (i didn’t live in the district, but my parents wanted my siblings and i to attend), and the opportunity and encouragement for individuality, expression and growth was amazing. a big part of that was flexibility; my school was known as a trend setter in that it was the first (at least in the region) to adopt modular scheduling, where students did have a buffet-style approach to education (of course there were required courses). this granted kids the opportunity to explore their interests, and take a more specialized approach to their education, basically putting them in control. a student could take a full day of classes, or leave some open “mods” during the day to do schoolwork or even just hang out in one of the material centers to learn and get assistance from teachers. oh, and teachers loved it too; because of the scheduling method, they could have a much needed break during the day, and more freedom to prepare for class or *gasp* call home or their kids at lunchtime to talk with them, and see how their day has been.

ok, whoah, ranting.

but even our public schools are good. teachers work hard to prepare kids for their futures. it’s just a shame that many children don’t have parents their to raise them and teach them to be responsible, considerate adults.


The Gray Train on 05/19 at 11:56 AM

But Gray Train, what you are talking about is exactly the type of schooling option consideration I’m talking about.  It sounds like your parents made an active, not a default, decsion about your education - it was planned, options were considered and one was chosen.  That’s not the case for most folks, it seems.  Call the local district, enroll junior in whatever grade hs/her age corresponds to and done - and the poor kid grinds it out for the next 13 years.  (Yes, some enjoy it, some tolerate it and survive, soem grow to hate it and some become very desperate in that hatred, but it oculd be sooo much more).

So yeah, charter/magnet schools - which is what yours sounds like - are a good thing, IMO. 

That is NOT the system at most schools.  “Teachers work hard” - some do, some don’t, like any other profession. Sometimes they have a bad day or a bad year. Some are talented, some aren’t some are in the wrong grade placement.  Some have administrations that support innovation, and some have efficient administrations that make Kafka’s novels look reasonable.

But, in many cases, we also dont expect a lot of teacher with education degrees.  There isn’t a lot of in-depth knowledge as much of the time is spent in ed classes which is, to a large degree, crowd control. 

Parents don’t - well, that’s just what I was pointing out.  As schools scoop the kid younger and younger, and then summer camps proliferate, the parent becomes accustomed to outsourcing the parenting.  And since they’re not around the kid a lot, well, it tends not to bother them - or, they get the kid a new gadget to keep it quiet.  For which they have to spend more $ and work more and be away from the kid more, etc.
 
Now, if that’s a chosen way of life - well OK.  But from observation and conversation, it seems a lot of these types of non-parenting parents that you brought up, just fall into and then get trapped in a vicious circle.

Comment #197: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  03:51 PM

It seems to me the only solution to the parenting problem is for more than two people to be in the support structure for any given kid.

Seriously. Nuclear families—especially mobile nuclear families—are relatively new on the scene, and while they’re good for capitalism, they *suck* for human health. They’re bad on us psychologically and they make raising kids into these weird zero sum games.

On other subjects, Uhuru hasn’t always struck me as a troll, but more or less since she started becoming obsessed with the concept of ‘troll’ she became one. She comments with off-topic, acrid, one liners or rants that have little to do with the conversation. Things are much improved by using a manual killfile (i.e. a scroll button) to ignore her contributions.

Comment #198: Mandolin  on  05/19  at  04:02 PM

I wasn’t the originator of the housewives comment . . . but you know, you do find something there. I’ve met the wives of some of the men I was discussing in my comment, and talking with them does often feel like a timewarp back to the 1950s.  The men who want women in the home met up and marry the women who think that a woman’s place is in the house.  And then the corporate world tends to reward that combination, because the men basically get to act like they are childfree, but have the respectability of being married-men-with-children.

And while I think that being a housewife _is_ a valid choice, if it is a choice you are able and willing to make . . . I don’t think that also believing that _all_ women should be in the house is anything but patriarchy-enabling.

hp on 05/19 at 01:33 PM

Amen.  I think you can’t deny that having a fulltime household manager/on-call nanny is a great career enabler.  The problem is that in many cases it’s a default option that the wife gets to be “it” the minute kiddies enter the picture. 

I mean seriously there can/are options for this that have worked, but a few seem to have fallen off the radar screen.  I wonder why?

Serial intensive careering - both halves of a couple really need to re-consider pursuing tenure/promotion/that BIG expansion - SIMULTANEOUSLY

INsourcing - one half of the couple is in charge at home mostly full time - but which one and for how many years should be negotiated

OUTsourcing it - well if both really work their butts off they’ll hire the professional housekeeper/cook/nanny part or full time.  Yeah, I know still damn expensive, but it is job creation

The extended family - hey, it’s working for the Obamas;-)

Comment #199: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  04:05 PM

In my own field (engineering), we do indeed prefer to work people overtime (even paid overtime) to hiring new bodies. Because - in the short term - it’s cheaper. And in the long term, the managers have all retired.

Essie Elephant on 05/19 at 02:03 PM

And why is it cheaper - benefits! Primarily healthcare - so if we either paid part-timers a percentage of full time benefits or went to universal healthcare, I think that would automatically redistribute some of the jobs and wages(i.e. 3 twenty hour weeks intstead of one person working 60.)

Comment #200: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  04:10 PM

Phyl - The Obamas?

LOL!

Mrs. Obama gave up her career to be ...well…Mrs. Obama.

Comment #201: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  04:15 PM

Uhm, Uhura - I was referring to Marian Robinson being the First Grandma - that’s why I said an extended family (or intergenerational living arrangement.)  Poster Mandolin first brought up the nuclear family problem.

Absolutely Michelle Obama is NOT a SAHM, IMO.

Comment #202: phylosopher  on  05/19  at  05:00 PM

My bad :D

Comment #203: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  05:20 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, my experience with children is that if they start shrieking in public, they’re probably tired and didn’t get enough rest before they were taken to wherever by THEIR PARENTS.

Comment #204: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/19  at  06:24 PM

Dark Avenger—and sometimes that happens. Sometimes a kid didn’t get a nap and the parents didn’t have food in the house and wanted to go out, and they figure “hey, maybe the kid can soldier through.”

Unless the kid is shrieking nonstop through the entire dinner, you do not have a right to cast hairy eyeballs at parents for bringing the kid out. If the kid shrieks for a minute, that’s fucking life. Deal. You were an obnoxious little shit yourself, once, and I’m sure you shrieked once or twice in a restaurant when your parents were trying to eat.

No, assholes have issues with any children, at all, in a public space. Yeah, sometimes parents take children into adult space (nice restaurants, scary movies, BDSM clubs, whatev) and that’s inappropriate, but I am sick to death of people pretending like their perfect night out is ruined ruined, I say! because the little kid next to them is blowing bubbles in their milk and maybe not quite the master of the indoor voice we would like them to be. Or just sitting there at all.

The second we see a kid in a nice establishment, that kid already has two strikes against them. Generally, we don’t hold them to the same standard as adults, and I know, because I’ve got a pretty loud, deep voice and it’s hard for me to not be the Human Megaphone, but I don’t get the nasty looks that kids get for asking precocious questions about the menu. Of course it might be that there’s always the chance I can defend myself, and at least with a little kid, you know you’re bullying someone who can’t fight back.

Comment #205: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  06:33 PM

Essie, you need to think long & hard about that choice you’re about to make. The numbers say in 10 years, your husband will likely trade you in for the younger model.

Stick rule, please.

Comment #206: Rebecca  on  05/19  at  06:36 PM

Mandolin, agreed.

Throwing some other random things out there: I don’t think public schools are meant for the children of educated literate professionals who spend time after work taking their kids to karate classes, is the thing. I don’t think I learned a single thing in public elementary and middle school besides patience and long division, but I also come from a family that reads the Oxford English Dictionary out loud at the dinner table. Homeschooling is fine if our goal is to just replicate the educational attainment of the parents (assuming no one has an ugly divorce and ends up working at McDonalds because of the mommy-hole in their resume, and no one’s soul is crushed by being isolated with small children all day). But I have always had the impression that the goal of public school is to provide a similar level of instruction to everyone, so that even if your parents can’t read, at least you can.

Honestly, though, I don’t see what’s wrong with acknowledging that some people have a gift for teaching and caring for small children in general and should be paid for their time, and some people just learn how to care for their own some of the time and also have other interests and gifts they want to pursue while making sure that their children are in a safe learning environment. This doesn’t seem like an inhumane proposition. I would of course like to see schools more integrated with their communities and less kept on constant lockdown.

I also think it’s interesting that I’ve ended up arguing with or about childfree people when I’m ridiculously concerned with overpopulation. My momma raised me to believe that every person who decides to have fewer than two children is personally saving a whale and a panda, and those of us who decide to have two (or more, though she Frowned on That) should be thanking them for freeing up space for trees. All the studies I’ve seen indicate that supporting womens’ education and economic stability is the only way to bring birthrates down, though, and it does it without trampling all over anyone’s reproductive autonomy. So that’s what I focus on. Intriguingly, this includes making jobs more pro-family so that women’s options aren’t ridiculously limited.

Comment #207: purpleshoes  on  05/19  at  06:38 PM

meant to primarily benefit the children of educated literate professionals, is what I meant. Us they just house until we can go to college.

Comment #208: purpleshoes  on  05/19  at  06:40 PM

Rebecca, that’s not at example of the stick rule.  If anything, that’s the most intelligent thing Uhura has said yet.

Comment #209: Rachel,II  on  05/19  at  06:48 PM

No, I’m not down with People On The Internet reminding women to THINK ABOUT THEIR CHOICES LONG AND HARD without knowing the extent to which that thought has already been done.

It’s patronizing.

Someone telling me to THINK LONG AND HARD for deciding to go ahead with sterilization surgery, or the decision to marry my husband, or the decision to buy a home, or any of that: You don’t know me. You don’t know the thought that went into these choices. YES, THOUGHT. Someone telling a woman to THINK LONG AND HARD about her decision to seek an abortion or divorce her husband is patrionizing and assholish.

Same with Essie. She’s mentioned that she’s not yet a mom. The fact that she’s planning stuff like future kid’s education should tell you that she’s thinking about it. Maybe she’s coming to alternate conclusions than you or I would… but that doesn’t mean she’s not thinking about it and considering factors that you and I are not privvy to and have no right to comment on.

And for the stuff that Essie may not be considering (and it’s possible, although not probable), there are a lot better ways to put it. For example, saying something like, “I hope your plans include a backup financial strategy for yourself in case your husband can’t support you” is a lot less assholish to say than “your husband’s gonna leave you in 10 years for someone who’s cuter and thinner and you’ll be destitute!!!1!”

Comment #210: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  07:06 PM

+1 Mighty Ponygirl. If I hadn’t already tl;dr’d all over this thread I would say something about how nobody gets to live outside the patriarchy, so the best we can do right now is try to negotiate it as best we can with dignity and that looks different for everybody. But I already tl;dr’d.

Comment #211: purpleshoes  on  05/19  at  07:49 PM

Unless the kid is shrieking nonstop through the entire dinner, you do not have a right to cast hairy eyeballs at parents for bringing the kid out.

I’m not defending that right.  I’m lucky in that I can literally cast a deaf ear on such antics, me right one being 99% on the fritz and all that.

If the kid shrieks for a minute, that’s fucking life. Deal. You were an obnoxious little shit yourself, once, and I’m sure you shrieked once or twice in a restaurant when your parents were trying to eat.

I was the more passive-aggressive type.  Mom noticed that I would always throw myself on the soft part of the couch, and I once held my breath until I passed out. 

It’s funny you should say that, because I was the silent type.  I didn’t even deign to babble, and until I started talking in sentences at a fairly late age, I had the folks worried for a while.

Dad was a biology teacher,so it was fairly easy for him to determine when we were in a mood to be taken out to eat.

Sometimes a kid didn’t get a nap and the parents didn’t have food in the house and wanted to go out, and they figure “hey, maybe the kid can soldier through.”

And if they can’t, then we just have to grin and bear it.

Of course it might be that there’s always the chance I can defend myself, and at least with a little kid, you know you’re bullying someone who can’t fight back.

Sorry, I don’t hold the kid responsible for his behavior if he’s been dragged somewhere when he’s tired and hungry and can’t tell the parents “Mummy, daddy, I’m awfully sleepy and peckish, could you take me outside so I can have a good wail and then we can eat afterwards?”

30

Comment #212: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/19  at  08:36 PM

You may have been the passive aggressive type, but I bet you had a few embarassing meltdowns in public in your day.

Comment #213: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  08:54 PM

There are a minimum of two worlds:

1) The world that should be.

2) The world that is

My “think long and hard” still stands.

Comment #214: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  09:17 PM

And my assertion that you’re a patronizing someone still stands as well. Funny how that works.

Comment #215: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/19  at  09:29 PM

Yes, the system should be changed so that being a SAHM is a neutral choice. Ultimately, I Blame the Patriarchy.

Comment #216: Entomologista  on  05/19  at  09:59 PM

I bet you had a few embarassing meltdowns in public in your day.

There were very few that went unchallenged. 

The only time that was ever talked about when I was at the preschool, I started acting up, and Mother Avenger went from Eurasian to White Bone Demon in about 2.3 seconds.  What wasn’t remarkable was that I shut up, what was the terrified stares of my fellow classmates when she finished dealing with me wink

Comment #217: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/19  at  10:02 PM

Am I all italicized and shit yet?

Comment #218: Ms Kate  on  05/19  at  10:16 PM

Uhura, had somebody changed what you said to imply that a woman of color was statistically certain to go on welfare and have twenty kids, you’d be bullshit.  I think it is hard to get less feminist or more offensive.

Comment #219: Ms Kate  on  05/19  at  10:23 PM

</i></b>

Comment #220: Ms Kate  on  05/19  at  10:24 PM

Uhura, had somebody changed what you said to imply that a woman of color was statistically certain to go on welfare and have twenty kids, you’d be bullshit.  I think it is hard to get less feminist or more offensive.

Except, in my case, the statistics would go in another direction.

I am
-the daughter of immigrants
-an MBA holder
-married

Comment #221: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/19  at  11:10 PM

And this is all terribly relevant, Uhura, because… wait, it’s not.

Stick rule +1.

Comment #222: Mandolin  on  05/19  at  11:37 PM

</i>Hey!

Comment #223: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/19  at  11:50 PM

</b></i>Hey!

Comment #224: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/19  at  11:51 PM

And this is all terribly relevant, Uhura, because… wait, it’s not.

Stick rule +1.

Hey - I was riding the tail of someone else’s comet.

But - like all White people, you must place the blame on a Black person :D

Comment #225: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/20  at  12:01 AM
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