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Next entry: She Just Doesn’t See That “Race” Thing Previous entry: It’s time for today’s McCain/Palin Political Theatre

First Rule: Don’t Panic

Economy

I haven’t posted much on the bailout, because I needed time to digest what was happening and really think it over.  (Which is going to be the theme of this post, if you read the title correctly.)  I can’t help but smile to think of how things have gone down, in a sense. The Bush administration deliberately set out to cause a panic in order to get the most money they could with the fewest number of strings attached.  For a time, it looked like it was going to happen.  But the Founding Fathers created a system that is supposed to move with deliberation and be accountable to the voters, and sure enough, this time it worked.  The Bush administration has always operated under the assumption that deliberation is their enemy, mostly because they have a bunch of ideas that won’t pass scrutiny.  Finally, Congress is doing (part) of their job.

I tend to lean towards thinking a bailout is necessary. That said, I’m also increasingly glad it failed because so many Congress critters with contested seats had to face a hostile voting public.  Instead of feeling torn between a sense that something has to happen right now and that they also need to keep their seats, Democrats should be grateful that the public bought them time to spend between here and the election working out a long option list and brainstorming creative ideas to make any bailout more progressive (how about using some funds for buying people’s houses for them and then reselling them back to them with fixed rate, low interest loans?).  Because no matter how urgent this bailout feels, the election is more important.  Whatever disasters happen between now and the election are minor compared to the disaster of letting Republicans take back power during this time of crisis.  Republicans will fuck it up.  They’re congenitally incapable of treating situations like these as little more than opportunities to jackhammer a bigger wedge between the fabulously wealthy and the rest of us.  The decision appears to be between sitting on this bailout and potentially losing the election in a big way because angry voters punish incumbent Democrats.  The latter is by far the worse option.  Because the economic fallout isn’t going to end after a bailout.  I suspect we’re facing many problems down the road.  We need people in office who aren’t ideologically opposed to progressive legislation or taxation.

But Amanda, you are about to say, isn’t that sleazy?  Isn’t it unfair to the voters to bank unpopular legislation until after an election?  It would be if you were hiding what you’re doing.  But Democrats should be bold on this, and not only delay legislation, but campaign on the fact that they’re doing this.  Democratic candidates can go back home and tell voters, “Republicans, who got us into this mess with their crazy belief in unregulated markets, are now trying to squeeze the taxpayer for $700 billion.  Can they be trusted to do this right when they and their ideas got us into this situation in the first place?  Now that the bailout has failed, we’re dedicating a research team to the task of studying the problem, and if I’m re-elected, we’ll pass a responsible plan that will not just be a giveaway to the people who got us into this situation.  But it’ll be a plan to make sure that your grocery store will still have food on its shelves, and that your bank doesn’t close its doors.  We’ll also make sure to address the problems of the people hurt most by this financial collapse, the homeowners who are facing eviction because they couldn’t afford their escalating mortgage payments.  And we’ll hold the people who got us into this accountable.  There will be no golden parachutes for executives who got us into this, and Wall Street is going to be forced to play by the rules of fairness and transparency that rule Main Street.”  Or some variation therein.  I think between now and the election, the public will warm to the idea that we need to do something, but they’ll only come around if they understand it better, and if there’s plenty of accountability and help for the people who got screwed over by banks desperate to try to keep the illusion going.

Wall Street won’t like being made to wait, but a lot of the crashing is due to panic.  Knowing that something is coming would slow the panic.  Right now, things are mostly haywire because investors have no information and are flipping out.

By the way, this financial breakdown is swinging the election towards Obama.  Democrats are able to come to the public from a position of strength, and they need to take advantage of that.

*************

By the way, Marc suggested I share my metaphor of how we got into this situation with everyone, because metaphors about candy and Halloween were not doing the job.  And I think that merely dismissing everyone in the country who played a part as a big meanie greedhead is a pointless exercise.  Creative financing is cheating, at its core.  It’s using financial trickery to make your books look fatter than they should.  In that way, it’s exactly like steroid use in sports.  And as much as people like to get on their moral high horse about steroid use in sports, it’s more practical to view steroid use as an inevitable flaw in the system.  Athletics is so competitive that eventually someone is going to give into the urge to cheat with steroids.  And as soon as one guy does it, the stake are raised, and more guys are going to do it in order to compete.  Before too long, the guy who doesn’t use steroids is the oddball, because steroid use has become a minimum requirement to compete.  Interestingly, McCain and Palin are bashing Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae every time they turn around, mostly because they like to confuse people about Fannie & Freddie’s status (they were private at the time they got involved in these sort of creative financing schemes, but McCain/Palin would love to have you believe they were public—-by the way, it’s that sort of piddling around and ideological potshot taking is exactly why Republicans can’t be the economic leaders next year and going forward), but the banks were exactly the sort of late arrivals to the cheating game that started cheating because everyone else was doing it. 

Free market ideologues would have you believe that errors like creative financing correct themselves, and using the steroid example, we can see how that would work.  If steroid use runs unchecked, it will get to the point where athletes are dying left and right from heart attacks because they pushed their drug use too far.  And eventually, the sport would have to be shut down because the costs would be too high.  So, yes, the system would correct itself with a total collapse.  Or, you can introduce regulation, which is what sports franchises do, because they aren’t blinded by ideology.  You test players for drug use and you punish drug users.  That doesn’t mean there won’t be some people slipping in, but if the system is sufficiently powerful, the drug problem will be minimized. 

By the way, the fashion industry is facing a similar problem with eating disorders.  Consider anorexia a form of cheating for models.  Once one model developed anorexia (or the appearance of it), the bar was raised (or lowered, really) to an impossible level for everyone else, and soon to be a model you pretty much had to have anorexia.  This problem cannot be fixed without some kind of intervention, even if it’s something rough and brutal like having minimum BMI requirements on the runway.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:32 AM • (91) Comments

The Democratic leadership has scheduled another vote on the bailout today.  60% of them voted to pass it.  How is this a Republican bailout again?  It seems to me that the Republicans are the ones voitng against the bailout.

Comment #1: Dr T  on  10/01  at  11:54 AM

What kills me about the bailout failure is how the House Republicans sunk it, and then blamed Nancy Pelosi for forcing them to vote against it because she was mean to them. What a bunch of babies.

Comment #2: Bitter Scribe  on  10/01  at  11:55 AM

The new plan has a business tax cut, because that’s logical.

I called Dick Durbin and Obama. Durbin (or his staffer) doesn’t know how he’s going to vote, and I left a message with Obama. Who knows if he’s even going to show up.

Comment #3: Ashley  on  10/01  at  12:02 PM

Fucking ridiculous.  This is nothing more than hostage taking on a massive scale, “Give us $700 billion or your economy gets it!”  And then the House Rethugs jumped in, “Hey, $700 billion is a lot of money!  We can’t give you that, because Nancy is a big meanie, unless you take this pile of massive tax cuts along with it.”

Comment #4: libdevil  on  10/01  at  12:19 PM

How is this a Republican bailout again?

It’s a Republican bailout because it’s a Republican executive branch that’s begging for it, abd because it contains all the hallmarks of Republican-driven “compromises” (moral hazards glore, lack of accountability, made-up data points, no addressing endemic flaws in the regulatory and oversight arenas, etc.).

If the Dems give into the whingey extortionist tactics and accept those supply-side fantasy compromises, it’s par for the course for the spineless wonders Pelosi and Reid—I don’t make any excuses for them. But as all of us well know, the worst and most irresponsible aspects of these proposed bailouts have “GOP” stamped all over them.

I agree completely, Amanda. A comprehensive bailout has to wait until after the election, at a point where (with any luck) we’ll have grown-ups leading the executive again. In the meantime, the Fed can continue do targetted and tough-minded AIG-style rescues and get used to the idea of disbursing taxpayer dollars thoughtfully and ... conservatively (heh).

And I think that merely dismissing everyone in the country who played a part as a big meanie greedhead is a pointless exercise.

It is, mainly because it allows wingnuts to assign equal if not greater blame to a first-time homeowner with (let’s be generous) a 4-year B.A. making $40k a year than he is to an i-bank analyst with a Harvard MBA and quants training up the wazoo who makes $500k a year. Both bear some responsibility for maintaining the core delusion that housing values could only go up-Up-UP, but one has a lot fewer excuses for doing so.

Comment #5: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  12:25 PM

Why do you, and everyone else, hate young couples? I mean, why is everyone so desperate to keep people in houses they can’t afford? My spouse and I were financially prudent; we saved our money and didn’t buy a house because the prices were obviously inflated. Now we see all the people who signed their names and got a 100% (or 110%!) loan referred to as “homeowners”. Politicians (at the urging of journalists) may reduce the principal on their mortgage, give them low interest rates, and further tax breaks. I guess the lesson of this housing bubble is to borrow outrageous sums, buy a house you cannot possible afford, and then beg the government to pay for it for you. Thanks for punishing the few Americans who don’t have any debt and who actually save money each month.

Comment #6: Jenny  on  10/01  at  12:26 PM

Also, Democrats are being hoodwinked again. If the plan improves the economy, the Republicans will brag that it was their president who thought of it and it will be considered a Republican success story. If the plan damages the economy, the Republicans will say that it was a Democratic Congress that wrote and passed it and it will be considered a Democratic failure. How many times are we going to fall for this? The Republicans are bullies and the Democrats are the melvins who keep falling for the “what’s that on your shirt” routine.

Comment #7: Jenny  on  10/01  at  12:30 PM

Jenny: You make it sound like this whole situation was a conspiracy by greedy, irresponsible young couples to buy houses they couldn’t afford. What about the lenders? Where does their responsibility lie, and why should they (and the financial “geniuses” who bought these mortgages) be the sole beneficiaries of the bailout?

Comment #8: Bitter Scribe  on  10/01  at  12:34 PM

Can one of you obviously gifted commenters please guide me to the regulation that was repealed, or regulation that was proposed and not enacted, which would have averted this financial issue?  I took a second look at the Glass-Steagall Act, which was repealed in 1999, but it seems not to apply to the issue now before the Nation.

Comment #9: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  12:35 PM

If there’s one thing that I wish everybody knew about the bailout, it’s that it doesn’t actually cost $700 billion. 

We buy $700 billion worth of distressed assets.  If we did it according to Paulson’s original plan, goodness knows what sort of price we’d get.  We may overpay and end up with net losses of $100 billion, or something.  But there is simply no way that we lose $700B.  If we get a big chunk of bank stock in addition to the mortgage assets from whichever bank we buy assets from (as Dodd and Frank wanted) we have a good chance of making money. 

For example, I’m loving the AIG bailout deal.  Take a look at the specifics.  We basically got to be a predatory lender here and plundered the company.  The government is charging them 11.5% interest on anything they borrow, 8.5% on anything they don’t up to $85B, and taking 79.9% of the company’s stock.  (Why 79.9%?  So the shareholders don’t get to vote and block it, as they would at 80% or more.)  If a bank is facing a choice between collapsing and taking a deal like this, they’ll do the deal. 

Nationalizing failing banks is the best option, but I’d like to see more deals on which we make out like a bunch of pirates.  Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

Comment #10: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  10/01  at  12:43 PM

Ur, the point about it not costing 700B may have been unclear.  The thing is that the assets have some value, and we can sell them back.  They’re bad assets, but when you get to own most of the bank that sold them to you as part of the deal, things start looking a lot sweeter.

Comment #11: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  10/01  at  12:45 PM

Jenny, I am with you to a point. My wife looked at buying a house a couple of years ago. The banker told us we would need at least 20% down to get a fixed rate mortgage, but we could get an ARM with what we already had saved. We left and said we would just keep saving until we had the 20%. We also have significant student loans that we would love to be bailed out of. That said, just because something is unfair doesn’t mean it isn’t necessary. I’ve never used the fire department’s services in my life, but I know society would be worse off if I didn’t help pay for them. It’s a delicate situation.

Comment #12: penn  on  10/01  at  12:52 PM

Thanks for punishing the few Americans who don’t have any debt and who actually save money each month.

“Punishment” seems awfully strong.  Say my neighbor has a gas leak (because Gas Co. stopped doing inspections), and his house catches on fire and threatens a lot of other houses in the neighborhood.  But my house is extra fireproof.  When the fire department comes, and my house isn’t on fire so I don’t need them, am I being “punished”?  If my house ends up being the only one left standing in the neighborhood, will its _value_ remain intact?

Yes, people do stupid things, and other people get played, and savvy ones might not do either.  But sometimes people who do stupid things still need help, either for their own sake, or—because of economic and social interconnectedness—for ours.

Comment #13: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  12:53 PM

penn, as I was writing my comment yours popped up—I agree that the fire analogy is certainly instructive, if not perfect.

Comment #14: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  12:55 PM

Why do you, and everyone else, hate young couples?

Well, then Jenny, I assume I don’t need to pay taxes toward the schools your kids will go to. After all, I don’t have any kids. So it’s not fair that I have to pay to educate yours. Why do you hate childless people?

Have fun with that extra 7 grand in your property taxes when you finally buy your Morally Superior House and are a Real Homeowner, Not Like Those Uppity Poor Folks Who Thought They Could Be Homeowners.

Comment #15: Well, what?  on  10/01  at  01:00 PM

Before you make up your minds about a bailout, wait until you here the proposal that will be offered at a press conference at 3 ET this afternoon.

Here’s what the plan looks like.

Comment #16: DBK  on  10/01  at  01:06 PM

“I took a second look at the Glass-Steagall Act, which was repealed in 1999, but it seems not to apply to the issue now before the Nation.”

Can you explain your reasoning here? The repeal of Glass-Steagall was what allowed the sale of mortgage bundles as securities in the first place, the very securities activity that got us into this mess.

Comment #17: Tyler DiPietro  on  10/01  at  01:07 PM

I think that the repubs response to Pelosi, while theatrically overblown, is very telling.  Her speech, and their response, can, I think, be seen as exactly the kind of muscle-flexing and maneuvering that Amanda’s talking about.  The dems need to make sure that if a reform passes, it is real reform for the right reasons.  That’s why so many liberal democrats were against it, and I have a feeling that’s why she threw down the gauntlet that way.  If there’s going to be bipartisanship, it’s going to be on our terms now.  If the repub leadership wants this passed, they are going to have to eat some humble pie first.  For years, any time the word bipartisanship was uttered, it meant democrats compromising more than republicans.  Maybe…hopefully… not any more.

Comment #18: jamie d  on  10/01  at  01:20 PM

Can one of you obviously gifted commenters please guide me to the regulation that was repealed, or regulation that was proposed and not enacted, which would have averted this financial issue?  I took a second look at the Glass-Steagall Act, which was repealed in 1999, but it seems not to apply to the issue now before the Nation.

I don’t think Glass-Steagall would have averted the housing bubble, but if it had stayed in place it would have rung a lot more “holy crap!” alarm bells a lot earlier (say, in April, right after the Bear Sterns disaster) and kept the GOP from claiming that we now have to act under extreme duress “or else.” While Glass-Steagall didn’t prevent commercial banks (via brokers) from offering mortgages to consumers, it might have been used to question the banks bundling the pieces of shite and selling them off as “can’t-lose-value investment vehicles” to the brilliant minds on Wall Street.

One of the core problems leading to the current situation is that that the GOP (with acts like Glass-Steagall’s “successor,” Gramm-Leach-Bliley) spent many years working diligently to give the green light to commercial banks to involve themselves proflgiately (if sneakily) in the riskier securities and insurance markets. At the same time, they (at the urging of the banking industry and speculators who saw an opportunity) made similar efforts to keep investors in the dark about and regulators out of the way of exotic trading vehicles like Enron-style derivatives. All part of the neoCons’ grand scheme to return us to the economic wonderland of 1895 America—crony captialism, company towns, innovation-destroying monopolies, child labour, no government regulation, etc.

Comment #19: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  01:33 PM

Can you explain your reasoning here? The repeal of Glass-Steagall was what allowed the sale of mortgage bundles as securities in the first place, the very securities activity that got us into this mess.

You’re expecting Rumpy to look at the underlying causes of the crisis instead of just blaming poor people?  Not gonna happen.

Hey, Rumpy, tell us again how the financial crisis is all the fault of the Duke prosecutor.  That was really funny last time.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  10/01  at  01:40 PM

1. Reducing the situation to “Pass the bailout or Democrats lose” is a simplification so misguided it’s Palin-like. Didn’t you read The Shock Doctrine and The Wrecking Crew? Can’t you apply that to what’s going on now? If you trusted those authors then, perhaps you should read what they’re saying. Read some Glenn Greenwald. Or Firedog lake. Or Mother Jones. Or good god did you research this at all?

2. The Treasury admitted $700 billion number was just because it was big and round. Shouldn’t a valid bailout at least involve numbers related to an actual estimate?

3. It’s not this bill or do nothing. I support some action, but for this or any plan to work, more needs to be understoond about the problem and a solution needs more boundaries and protections. The bill as it stands is deeply flawed and is a blank check in many ways. The crisis is not so dire something must be done without thinking.

4. Your arguing that Republicans inherently exploit crisis to push a radical agenda, so it’s a good idea to pass a bill created by the Bush adminstration and not revised enough to stop radical agenda. Which gives the set up of the largest bailout in world history to the people who helped cause it.

5. It might be a bit difficult to deal with the next crisis in a different way with a $700 billion policy locked in by previous administration. And the next big economic problem you find inevitable might be actually be caused by this bailout.

6. All the current rescues combined create a trillion dollar budget problem which will be used as leverage against any Obama agenda: “Health care, public transit, school funding? Sorry, the bailout took all that. New regulations or oversight for Wall Street? Too expensive and this might disrupt the fragile stability of the bailouts.”

7. There’s been lots of coverage about how the Republicans are setting up the Democrats as targets for anger when the bailout does pass. At the very least, Dems will get an equal dose of fury. The idea this can be used to increase electory success is the Magic Unicorn school of electoral strategy. Even if they do win, what sort of progressive adminstration will supporters of this bill produce?

Comment #21: disgusted  on  10/01  at  01:42 PM

Hey Jenny?  Fuck you.

The subprime mortgage issue is not a case of people buying McMansions for 1% mortgages with an adjustable rate.  Subprime refers to the borrowers, not the interest rates.  These are people with smaller and normal homes with outrageous interest rates.

The interest rates on subprime loans STARTED at 10% (when prime was at 3.5%)  Why would anyone take such a loan?  BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T GET ANYTHING ELSE.

I’m so happy you and your SO are financially responsible.  And that neither of you suffered through multiple layoffs that were the hallmark of the first W term.  Nor that either of you suffered a major medical issue during a layoff which left you uninsured and therefore bankrupted you. 

I think you’re a bitch for thinking you’re better than other people who may have been just as fiscally responsible as you, but got killed by things outside their control.  Sometimes, even if you have a safety net, enough bad things happen that you run out of money.  And once your credit is lost you are FUCKED in the current system.

If the government, which is the people, bails out these financial institutions, they need to get something in return.  Despite Neil’s hopes that the gov’t might make out on these deals, I feel like pretty much it’s throwing money away. 

That’s not necessarily a bad result overall.  The FHA mortgage insurance program is nonrecourse, and while it’s usually profitable, when a project fails, and the gov’t pays out, the asset is still there  The gov’t may lose out overall, but if they’ve built nice apartments where vacant lots once were, society as a whole is improved.  The Sandberg Apts in Chicago are a failed FHA-insured loan, but they are a thriving part of the Old Town landscape today that wouldn’t have been there if not for the FHA-insured loan. 

Part of the charter of the FHA (Federal Housing Association) is to create decent housing.  That purpose was accomplished, even if the financing failed.

That’s what I want out of the bailout.  I don’t want to save any asshole libertarian free-market CEO or his inordinate and inappropriate salary.  I want home ownership for the little people. 

So yes, the people who didn’t have a down payment to buy a house and had to accept outrageous interest rates get a break in my bailout.  They get their mortgages revalued and a decent interest rate applied.  The benefit is more people owning homes and building equity.  More people who are then able to buy more things and keep the economy moving.  Fixing the system from the bottom, or at least not screwing those on the bottom.

The fact that Jenny and her partner don’t personally benefit from the bailout?  Doesn’t bother me one fucking bit.  Several times I could have bought a condo in Chicago, but they were “overpriced” so I didn’t do it.  Had I done it, I would be a millionaire today (seriously, housing prices went up that much since the early 90s).  Do I kick myself for it?  Once in a while.  Do I say “It’s not fair that people who are unable to make their mortgage payments designed to enrich the upper 1% are being given a second chance to have the American dream?”  No, I don’t, b/c while I may be a bitch, I try not to be such a selfish, unpatriotic one.

Comment #22: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/01  at  01:43 PM

I hit the too many character limit.  Sorry.  But here’s the reasoning from the middle that I had to cut.

Back to subprime mortgages:  The justification for the insanely high rate, is that a number of these loans will fail.  More of them will succeed, supposing that their owners can refinance into something sane after 2 years of consistent mortgage payments.  That results in more home ownership and more $ for everyone.  Subprime loans are NOT a completely stupid idea.

An ARM that adjusts from 10% to 21% is stupid.  That’s what a lot of the subprime loans do, they start out much higher than regular loans and then skyrocket into horrible credit card rates that no one can afford.  The PLAN was for these people to refi out of them, making the long term loan capitalize earlier. 

The idiocy was the banks and mortgage brokers faking the financial statements or writing a loan document that claimed someone making $40K/year would be able to make payments when the loan moved to 15-29% interest.  The idiocy was allowing brokers and banks to package up all these subprime loans into mortgage-backed securities and sell them on the open market.  Yes, as long as people could refi, everyone made out okay, and the few people who were truly uncreditworthy faced foreclosure, but not enough to destroy the value of the MBS.

But when a bank or broker can just make up shit and doesn’t care about what happens to the loan and the borrowers 2 years out, and the buyer of the MBS doesn’t give a shit about what happens to any individual borrower in the MBS, you have a complete fuck up waiting to happen.

The brokers make up shit.  The investment firms do nothing to help people stay in their homes or workout situations.  The little people get hurt, until they were hurt enough that the bubble burst.  Now no one can refi, b/c there’s no money available for anyone, and when money does become available again, banks are threatening to be ‘really responsible’ this time, which means they won’t lend to any subprime borrower, which screws the little guys again while the CEOs now get to look responsible and as if they deserve their inordinate salaries.

Comment #23: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/01  at  01:44 PM

You’re expecting Rumpy to look at the underlying causes of the crisis instead of just blaming poor people?  Not gonna happen.

Is that his agenda? I wish you’d mentioned that before I typed out my response—I hate wasting time giving a good faith answer to someone who’s asking a question in bad faith.

May I safely assume he also considers Roosevelt (Teddy, not Franklin D) a crypto-commie for busting those wonderful trusts?

Comment #24: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  01:49 PM

Gosh, Jenny, I was under the impression that said couples bought houses because they preferred having homes to sleeping on the street.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  01:57 PM

Thanks for punishing the few Americans who don’t have any debt and who actually save money each month.

Being in debt is not a moral failing. Neither, for that matter, is not managing to save money each month.

At the very least, not in a country without universal health care.

Comment #26: Auguste  on  10/01  at  02:01 PM

Another evil instrument that isn’t getting enough condemnation are all of the “derivatives”, such as credit default swaps. If the Titanic had sailed with a passenger list comprised only of Investment Bankers and Hedge Fund Managers, by the time the ship had struck the iceberg, there would have been CDF’s in place with a “notional” value of 18,000 lifeboats. Each of these assholes would have thought themselves “hedged” or protected. It never would have occurred to them that they could all go down together.

The total derivative notional value is many times the net worth of the entire planet. This crap needs to be addressed on a global basis. My fear is that the “financial innovators” (assholes) are already trying to figure out the next device to restore outsized profits now that the excess leverage device may be taken away.

Comment #27: Isopluvial  on  10/01  at  02:01 PM

See: Gracchus.  It was as much a “looking away” maneuver as anything else.  The Bushies were involved in the same scam in Texas in the 70s.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  02:02 PM

disgusted, you clearly cut and pasted that, because it’s certainly not a response to a post I wrote.  Calm the fuck down.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  02:02 PM

Nationalizing failing banks is the best option, but I’d like to see more deals on which we make out like a bunch of pirates.  Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

Sorry, matey, but them thar chests are filled only with seaweed and octopus shite. Still, we might be able to clean ‘em up, rope ‘em together and use ‘em as life rafts before our ship takes on too much water.

The pirate’s life is a jolly one, but also a hard one.

Comment #30: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  02:04 PM

Three things from my perspective as a consumer lender at a small, family-owned, community bank.
First: The whole situation drives me insane because if the regulators were doing there jobs, this never would have happened. And when it comes to small, not-so-powerful banks, they do their jobs, which definitely isn’t fair to someone. As a bank employee, I always thought the banking industry was over-regulated. Literally, twice a year, regulators came to our office and looked over every single loan we made, judging it for safety and soundness. We spent so much money making sure we were complying with so many rules and disclosing so many confusing things that it was sometimes hard to do business. Now, obviously, the failing big banks weren’t going through the same thing. So how exactly did it happen that my little tiny bank was killing itself for the auditors and their great big bank wasn’t getting any apparent attention at all?

Two: It’s easy to say that sub-prime loans suck for everyone, and it’s not fair to make people pay insane interest rates for the risky loans. But back in the days of usury laws, poor people just couldn’t get loans at all, which meant it was a lot harder to ever get not-poor. It drives me crazy when I look over some guys credit report and I see he’s paying 36% on his car loan. But from his perspective, it’s better than not having a car, and I would guess that only 2% of the time can my bank give that guy a reasonable loan based on his credit. Are the auto finance company’s taking advantage of him? I would say yes (I mean you, Onyx Auto Finance), but if real banks can’t afford that risk, then being takin advantage of might be better than doing without.

Three: Jenny, it’s easy for people who either were taught about finance or have natural common sense about it to judge those who don’t, but again, in my experience as a small banker, I’ve seen so many kids who just never knew better. And they usually learn eventually, the hard way, but I see no point for punishing them for something that’s partly a failure of our education system. Remember, being smarter than other people is a form of privilege too. Certainly not one you can share with other people, but you can try not to be so judgmental about it.

Comment #31: Av0gadro  on  10/01  at  02:21 PM

“that’s partly a failure of our education system”

This makes me wonder. Do current high schools include any education whatsoever on personal financial matters?

Comment #32: Isopluvial  on  10/01  at  02:27 PM

“If the Titanic had sailed with a passenger list comprised only of Investment Bankers and Hedge Fund Managers…”

...now THERE’s a plan I could get behind…

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  10/01  at  02:38 PM

I apologize for my blind rage led to a total failure of reading and manners, plus being confusing one blog with another.

I’m an idiot using google reader who skimmed your post in a list of several blogs after a post from a different blog supporting the bailout. I didn’t read your actual words, but assumed I knew what they were saying - which was the opposite of what you said.

And yes, I did cut and past most of my response from an argument from a different online argument with someone who supports the bailout.

I apologize again for being a total ass. I can’t believe I thought you agreed with Kevin Drum.

Comment #34: was disgusted now ashamed  on  10/01  at  02:42 PM

Isopluvial:

There was no personal finance in my high school education (2002 graduate) nor was there any in my sister’s (2008 graduate).  In a public school system that’s usually ranked in the top ten in the country.  When a friend of mine was buying her first house 2 years ago, an adjustable rate mortgage sounded like a great idea to her, based on what the bank told her.  I was her go-to math person (I’m an engineer), so when she wanted my opinion on the several loan options she had, I made her a basic spreadsheet.  Seeing the real numbers as opposed to the bank’s made her change her mind and go for the fixed rate mortgage, but she still has no idea how I got them.  The bank basically compared the first year monthly payments from the different mortgage options, leaving out how high they’d get a few years later under the adjustable rate.

Comment #35: Emaloo  on  10/01  at  02:57 PM

Isopluvial, I know at my school (ten years ago), a class that taught things like balancing checkbooks and budgeting was offered under the Home Ec umbrella courses, but it certainly wasn’t required.

Comment #36: elise  on  10/01  at  02:57 PM

It’s more than fair to allow homeowners to refi their mortgages if they can.  But there’s a huge problem with the government buying those homes and selling them back—many of them are now worth half of their value at the last sale.  I’m a firm believer that, if the government passes a bailout, over the long term it should either cost the taxpayers nothing or even give us a profit.  Anything that flushes billions of dollars down the toilet is a no go, whether that money goes to distressed home “owners” or Wall Street bankers.

Another possibility, which for some reason few people bring up, is the possibility of allowing people to rent those homes.  To be completely frank, few people who are facing foreclosure have put any actual money into their mortgages.  For all intents and purposes, they’ve been renters up to this point anyway and allowing them to stay in those homes, even though they no longer share in the ownership, would be better than letting those houses stand empty.

Comment #37: keshmeshi  on  10/01  at  03:01 PM

Being in debt is not a moral failing. Neither, for that matter, is not managing to save money each month.

And, for that matter, helping person A is not the same as punishing person B.

Comment #38: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/01  at  03:08 PM

The funny thing about the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 is that it was a very popular legislative initiative suppprted by both parties.

Comment #39: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  03:36 PM

“The funny thing about the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 is that it was a very popular legislative initiative suppprted by both parties.”

...you mean to say there are politicians in the pocket of Big Finance from both parties?  Wow! 

Who could possibly conceive of a world where politicians are lobbied into doing stupid things?...

Comment #40: MikeEss  on  10/01  at  03:47 PM

PiatoR:  helping person A is not the same as punishing person B.

It’s peculiar to me how deeply embedded it is that they are, in fact, the same.  And I’m very hung up on the idea of fairness, so I’ll implicate myself to a degree, but I’m also very hung up on sympathetic identification.

Comment #41: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  03:50 PM

“...you mean to say there are politicians in the pocket of Big Finance from both parties?  Wow!”

Well, I aim to mean that one of thirty-eight (38) Democratic Senators that voted for its repeal is now the Democratic Vice Presidential nominee, and that President Clinton signed the bill.  All of which is irrelevant, because Glass-Steagall would not have averted the issue now before us.  I presume that Senator Obama would have been one of the eight (8) stalward voices in the Senate well arguing against the repeal.

Comment #42: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  03:56 PM

The funny thing about the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 is that it was a very popular legislative initiative suppprted by both parties.

That’s your fallback answer: some Dems voted for it, too?! Pathetic—your namesake would be laughed out of the Old Bailey if that was the sum total of his cross on behalf of a minor villain, let alone the major villains you’re attempting to defend. I’ll suggest a more appropriate on-line monicker: Hamilton Burger.

I’d ask you, which party over the past 20 years has consistently proposed this sort of monumentally disastrous legislation in the first place? Hint: the answer is the same as Phil Gramm’s party affiliation.

That’s not to say I’m not fond of pointing out how easily the Congressional Dem leadership bends over and spreads for the GOP. But I’d be less inclined to complain if the GOP was presenting the Dems with proposals and bills that weren’t based mainly on corporate welfare handouts and various combinations of supply-side, Xtian and PNAC fantasies.

Comment #43: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  03:58 PM

No, my position is that the repeal of Glass-Steagall is one of those famous “distractions” we are so fond of blaming the other side for raising.  Nevertheless, such an act would have been impossible unless President Clinton and the Democrats in Congress wanted to repeal Glass-Steagall.  In sum, the repeal was a good thing and President Clinton deserves credit for making it a priority during his administration - I think it is ungrateful and disgraceful to lay blame for this mess upon one of the last Democratic President’s accomplishments.

Glass-Steagall would not have averted the present crisis in any event.  No regulation that was repealed (by Democrats or Republicans) nor regulation credibly proposed but not enacted would have averted this mess.

Comment #44: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  04:06 PM

All of which is irrelevant, because Glass-Steagall would not have averted the issue now before us.

Others, myself included, have made arguments that we would not be scrambling to deal with the issue now, and that the commercial banks might have been less inclined to package and sell off risky subprime mortgages if Glass-Steagall hadn’t been repealed. I have yet to see a substantive response besides a whingey “the Dems followed along” before running away from the issue by claiming irrelevancy.

I presume that Senator Obama would have been one of the eight (8) stalward voices in the Senate well arguing against the repeal.

Now that statement, ladies and gentlemen, is an excellent example of true irrelevance.

Comment #45: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  04:07 PM

No, my position is that the repeal of Glass-Steagall is one of those famous “distractions” we are so fond of blaming the other side for raising.

Let’s see: you’re saying the repeal of an act designed to keep commercial banks from engaging in, oh, I dunno, securitising and selling off the risky sub-prime mortgages they issued is a “distration” from the current mess?

Nevertheless, such an act would have been impossible unless President Clinton and the Democrats in Congress wanted to repeal Glass-Steagall.

“Waaahhh, the Dems did it too!” Trust me, that one isn’t working, especially given the nature of and relationship between the Executive and Legislative branches in 1999.

In sum, the repeal was a good thing and President Clinton deserves credit for making it a priority during his administration

And why was it a good thing? In answering, try to do better than your average MBA or Republican and actually think beyond one quarter’s financial results.

I think it is ungrateful and disgraceful to lay blame for this mess upon one of the last Democratic President’s accomplishments.

Indeed, especially since Phil Gramm was a Republican Senator and not a Democratic President.

Comment #46: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  04:14 PM

“Others, myself included, have made arguments”

Without citation to the text of Glass-Steagall itself; thus, you have made conclusory statements without actual, you know - argument. 

This is getting tiresome .  .  .

Comment #47: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  04:15 PM

“Well, I aim to mean that one of thirty-eight (38) Democratic Senators that voted for its repeal is now the Democratic Vice Presidential nominee, and that President Clinton signed the bill.”

Clinton also signed into law the DMCA, the telecom act of 96, the welfare reform act, and a whole bunch of other Republican-esque legislation. Big whoop, this isn’t exactly a secret.

Comment #48: Tyler DiPietro  on  10/01  at  04:16 PM

“This is getting tiresome .  .  .  .”

I’d have to agree, it’s sounding much you’re trolling at this point.

Comment #49: Tyler DiPietro  on  10/01  at  04:18 PM

Without citation to the text of Glass-Steagall itself; thus, you have made conclusory statements without actual, you know - argument.

Oh, we can all look it up. But since you’re lazy, here’s a nice simple summary from the two Wikipedia articles:

The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, also known as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act [...] is an Act of the United States Congress which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act, opening up competition among banks, securities companies and insurance companies.

[...]

The second Glass-Steagall Act, passed on 16 June 1933, and officially named the Banking Act of 1933, introduced the separation of bank types according to their business (commercial and investment banking), and it founded the Federal Deposit Insurance Company for insuring bank deposits.

What that second graf means is that (among other things) commercial banks were not supposed to be in the business of using their assets (e.g. mortgages), however strong or shaky, as cash cows that could be sold off to other investors (i.e. engaging in the equivalent of investment banking).

One wonders if you even read a summary of Glass-Steagall, let alone the full text.

Comment #50: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  04:29 PM

I’d have to agree, it’s sounding much you’re trolling at this point.

He is, but it’s fun to watch him try to avoid discussing the issues at hand, even as he claims to know them. That’s what drinking Randian Kool-Aid will do to a person.

Comment #51: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  04:31 PM

“Let’s see: you’re saying the repeal of an act designed to keep commercial banks from engaging in, oh, I dunno, securitising and selling off the risky sub-prime mortgages they issued is a “distration” from the current mess?”

Once again, I think you misunderstand the Act and its import. It would not have barred securitization of mortgages, and was deisgned to prevent commercial banks from holding such risky securities due to the potential effect that failure of said securities would have on the commercial bank’s obligations to depositors.  The problem, it seems, is essential to the “risky” mortgages themselves.

Comment #52: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  04:34 PM

Nobody _had_ to buy a house, there are plenty of apartments available. People who lose their houses aren’t going to end up homeless, they can rent an apartment or house. Bad things happen to good people sometimes, but that doesn’t mean we should hand them non-necessities, such as a free or partially-free house. My tax dollars shouldn’t be used to keep people in houses they really couldn’t afford, which keeps those house prices artificially high, which keeps those who don’t want to overpay out of the market. What it boils down to is that my tax dollars are about to be used to compete against me in the housing market.

I never said being in debt or not saving money were moral failings. However, I would think we could all agree that they’re not good for individuals or our economy as a whole. Our government shouldn’t reward those who overextended themselves nor should it punished those who refused to buy into a bubble.

Av0gadro, if the problem is lack of financial education, then wouldn’t our country be better off giving free classes on basic personal finance? The current crisis is NOT limited to sub-prime mortgages or unsophisticated borrowers. Even if it were, how can handing more money to someone who (as their staunchest defenders say) cannot handle money be a good thing? In a few years, after those mortgage principals have been decreased by government fiat, won’t they start taking money out through home equity loans again anyway?

Comment #53: Jenny  on  10/01  at  04:58 PM

As for the “assets” the government is buying, they’re never going to be worth what the government is about to pay for them. If they were, they’d be selling on the free market. There are plenty of investors who are happy to put their money in something that isn’t worth much today but which has a good chance of being worth more in the future. The problem is the banks want more money for those assets than they’re worth. Rather than taking a loss they want to palm them off on the greatest sucker, our government. The government should stay out of it and let ALL houses and assets fall to their true price.

If we need liquidity, let the government start lending money to small businesses and home buyers. Nationalize the entire thing, rather than just the losses.

Comment #54: Jenny  on  10/01  at  05:04 PM

I bought my house almost 5 years ago with 5% down.  It took me 7 years to save that.  7 years of working two jobs, paying off $20+ grand in student loans, another 5 grand in medical expenses (I had insurance, the 5 grand was my 20% of major medical), and one car that blew a rod 2 days after the deal was finalized (so I had to go almost 2 years without a car).  So Jenny your attitude is pretty uniformed.

I got a great deal because the house needed a lot of work.  I did much of it myself.  I financed new windows and some other repairs on one of those credit card offers with low rates for 6 months.  Cost me 15 grand.  Before the six months came up, a little more than a year after I bought the house we were able to refinance the main loan, pay off the cards and still had built up enough equity that we had the magic 20% equity.  It worked.

Three years later, now with two small children, we update my kitchen, again doing some work myself and hiring a contractor to make it safe and nice.  Again, I take advantage of CC offers.  This time, unknown to me, a state I lived in a decade ago decides to put a tax lien on me.  I didn’t even live in the state that year.  Nevertheless it took me 9 months to get that lien removed.  By then all of our equity vanished. In the meantime my payments skyrocketed and we began falling behind.  My credit rating suffered.  We were unable to refinance the debt for far longer than we planned.  We were not irresponsible.  We do not have more house than we can afford.  Finally we were able to get this sort-of straightened oit.  We are paying 15 fucking percent on the kitchen.  Since we are responsible types, I know our credit will recover and we’ll get a better rate later.  But if one more bad thing happens to us, we’re fucked.

Comment #55: Ron O  on  10/01  at  05:07 PM

Y’know something? The people in that house they couldn’t afford are already being punished. They have no equity, so if they ever sell the thing, every penny will go to the bank and they’ll be lucky if they don’t wind up still owing money. If the loan rate gets reduced to something they can afford, they’ll still have no equity, because the bank will get the lion’s share of any appreciation the house gets over the coming years. So they’re essentially renting a place they can barely afford (and dong maintenance and paying real estate taxes) until they can get out having lost only their down payment and a pile of cash flow. The alternative to this—namely “really” punishing them by foreclosure—involves yet another vacant, trashed house on an unmaintained lot, and some upward pressure on rental prices because those people have got to live somewhere.

People like Jenny, meanwhile, will be rewarded over the next few years when they buy a house a much more sensible prices, and find that it actually does serve as an reasonable longterm investment…

Comment #56: paul  on  10/01  at  05:19 PM

What’s the point of your story, Ron? Should the taxpayers have to pay for your updated kitchen? Was it necessary to borrow to update the kitchen or could you have saved the money and then done it? What would you have done if credit cards and home equity loans were not available?

Comment #57: Jenny  on  10/01  at  05:19 PM

It would not have barred securitization of mortgages, and was deisgned to prevent commercial banks from holding such risky securities due to the potential effect that failure of said securities would have on the commercial bank’s obligations to depositors.

And when they securitised their sub-prime mortgages in preparation for sale as investment vehicles, the commercial banks were doing something that Glass-Steagall would have, by your own definition, barred: holding risky (or really any) securities in anticipation of trading them. The moment the commericial bank said: “Hey, let’s bundle up this pile o’ crap mortgages, put it up for sale, and see who’ll buy” they would have started their violation of Glass-Steagall—if it had still been in existence.

Again, the risk of the security is besides the point. The key issue is that the commercial banks were creating and offering for sale any sort of investment device other than their own corporate stock. Glass-Steagall prevented that, until Phil Gramm, working under the terms of GOP dogma, said “screw the old regulations, you’re a financial services company—let ‘er rip!”

Now if Glass-Steagall hadn’t been repealed, a regulator who noticed what was going on (and it would have been noticed) could have said in April (or even earlier—much earlier) “ummm, hey commercial banks, you’re really not supposed to be doing that with your mortgages.” Think the resulting debate might have exposed the inherent contradictions in the whole mortgage packaging/trading scheme before it bloomed into a full-blown catastrophe?

Comment #58: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  05:23 PM

This makes me wonder. Do current high schools include any education whatsoever on personal financial matters?

Consumer Economics has been required as a freshman course in Idaho since befoe I attended there in the early 1980s.  My kids had it in middle school in Massachusetts as part of the life skills unit that included basic cooking, basic shop, basic hand sewing, etc.  I think the MA class was a local requirement.  In ID, it was a state requirement.

Comment #59: Helen H  on  10/01  at  05:23 PM

What’s the point of your story, Ron?

The point of Ron’s story (and of other comments) is that in life stuff happens (unfair liens, health emergencies, layoffs, natural disasters, identity theft, etc, etc.) that through no moral failing of ones’ own makes all that prudent planning and all those contingency savings go buh-bye in the course of a few weeks.

Debt in and of itself isn’t evil—it’s a tool. Debt only becomes a problem when it becomes a lifestyle choice. And while that lifestyle choice on the part of American consumers and home “owners” led to the current crisis, they were aided and abetted (and indeed encouraged) over the last 8 years to do so by supposedly responsible and well-informed financial services companies and supposedly vigilant government watchdogs. Lots of blame to go around, but if you’re going to focus on big-picture moral failings you might better focus your self-righteous anger elsewhere: some parties have fewer excuses than others.

Comment #60: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  05:37 PM

“And when they securitised their sub-prime mortgages in preparation for sale as investment vehicles, the commercial banks were doing something that Glass-Steagall would have, by your own definition, barred: holding risky (or really any) securities in anticipation of trading them. The moment the commericial bank said: “Hey, let’s bundle up this pile o’ crap mortgages, put it up for sale, and see who’ll buy” they would have started their violation of Glass-Steagall—if it had still been in existence.”

Now you’re just being dishonest.  Nothing in Glass-Steagall prohinited making sub-prime mortgages, and nothing prohibited commercial banks from selling mortgages to other holders in order to make more money available for new mortgages.  Your interpretation of Glass-Steagall is truly novel, in that no one has before seriously argued that the Act was intended to protect Investment Banks from risk.  Your view of the facts is also, well, “unique”, as packaging mortgages for sale to Investment Banks and creating securities backed by mortgages are not the same things.  Nevertheless, you have failed to cite the provision of Glass-Steagall that would have prevented the packaging of mortgages for sale in a secondary market to Investment Banks.  I’ll bet this is because that elusive provision, to the extent that it exists, is not published on Wikipedia.

Comment #61: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  05:41 PM

The vote down on the bailout has been what my husband called “the House slave revolt”.  It wasn’t just the members with tight races who refused to be guided by their Party Whips. 

One rep from MD summed it up this way:
Having gone trying to get help for the last two years because of high rates of foreclosure etc in his district and getting nothing and nowhere, had he voted for this bailout he could not have gone home.  He represents MD.  He goes home every night.

I miss Bloomberg while traveling.  They have the most interesting bits.

Comment #62: Helen H  on  10/01  at  05:41 PM

Av0gadro, if the problem is lack of financial education, then wouldn’t our country be better off giving free classes on basic personal finance?

Can’t we do both? Save the people currently suffering and educating people who need it?

Comment #63: Av0gadro  on  10/01  at  05:50 PM

Nothing in Glass-Steagall prohinited making sub-prime mortgages

Where did I say it did? What I said was that Glass-Steagall prohibited the commercial banks from securitising them.

and nothing prohibited commercial banks from selling mortgages to other holders in order to make more money available for new mortgages.

What you’re describing here is a straightforward transfer or acquistion of assets between commercial banks, as opposed to a sale to speculators. In terms of the basic intent of Glass-Steagall (and finance in general), that’s a critical difference.

Your interpretation of Glass-Steagall is truly novel, in that no one has before seriously argued that the Act was intended to protect Investment Banks from risk.

Again, where did I say that? The Act at its core defined different types of banking/financial services businesses (mainly commercial, investment, and insurance), and put up walls between them so that a given company could only engage in one type of business at a time, under specific rules for said business. The main rule was: don’t engage in the other businesses—as with booze, never mix, never worry.

packaging mortgages for sale to Investment Banks and creating securities backed by mortgages are not the same things.

They did both, but it’s only the second that’s an issue under Glass-Steagal. And, going to intent on that second issue, the packages were sold explicitly by commercial banks to secondary markets at a given price as speculative investment vehicles. That’s what’s known as engaging in investment banking, and as much as you’d like to dance around that hard fact, commercial banks were not allowed to do that between 1934 and 1999.

Comment #64: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  06:05 PM

Nevertheless, such an act would have been impossible unless President Clinton and the Democrats in Congress wanted to repeal Glass-Steagall.

Rumpy, what’s a veto-proof majority?

Comment #65: Mnemosyne  on  10/01  at  06:07 PM

So how exactly did it happen that my little tiny bank was killing itself for the auditors and their great big bank wasn’t getting any apparent attention at all?

I think this is the key question, right here. And we may not find the actual answer in any piece of legislation:

The Securities and Exchange Commission can blame itself for the current crisis. That is the allegation being made by a former SEC official, Lee Pickard, who says a rule change in 2004 led to the failure of Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and Merrill Lynch.

The SEC allowed five firms — the three that have collapsed plus Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — to more than double the leverage they were allowed to keep on their balance sheets and remove discounts that had been applied to the assets they had been required to keep to protect them from defaults.
[...]
The net capital rule also requires that broker dealers limit their debt-to-net capital ratio to 12-to-1, although they must issue an early warning if they begin approaching this limit, and are forced to stop trading if they exceed it, so broker dealers often keep their debt-to-net capital ratios much lower.
[...]
the SEC instituted a similar, voluntary program for broker dealers with capital of at least $5 billion,
[...]
the SEC, under its new Consolidated Supervised Entities program, allowed the broker dealers to increase their debt-to-net-capital ratios, sometimes, as in the case of Merrill Lynch, to as high as 40-to-1.

Excerpted from the NY Sun: http://www.nysun.com/business/ex-sec-official-blames-agency-for-blow-up/86130/.

If Pickard is right, then the whole problem boils down to the attitude that rules are for the little people.

Comment #66: Dorothy  on  10/01  at  06:09 PM

Also, for Jenny, you might want to consider the economic and social externalities (i.e. side effects) of families, no matter how irresponsible they were, being thrown onto the street in your neighbourhood. The increasingly desperate families don’t just vanish, and the empty houses they once inhabited don’t magically sprout responsible new owners.

And when you want to break your lease and move away from what’s turned into Cracktown, don’t expect the landlord to comply just because you start whinging that it’s not your fault.

Comment #67: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  06:10 PM

Rumpy, what’s a veto-proof majority?

Don’t even bother, Mnemosyne—he’s having trouble puzzling out the difference between a speculative transaction and the transfer of a cash asset.

Although at this point, going back to “the Dems did it too” is probably a better (though not particularly good) line of argument for him.

Comment #68: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  06:14 PM

“Don’t even bother, Mnemosyne—he’s having trouble puzzling out the difference between a speculative transaction and the transfer of a cash asset.”

You have still given no cite to the actual law in question in support of the proposition that Glass-Steagall would have prevented Commerical Banks from selling off existing mortgages to Investment Banks.  Not even Krugman has explicitly adopted your preposterous position that Glass-Steagall was intended to protect Investment Banks - to wit, it was intended to restrict Commercial Banks from holding high-risk investments, and the possibility of Commercial Bank failure and wiping out of depository accounts.  Even in your Alice in Wonderland version of the facts, the commercial banks never held the “risky mortgages” to the point that they became an unreasonable proportion of the Commercial Banks’ portfolios, the Commercial Banks having sold them in the regular course.  In short, no depository accounts have been endangered in any significant way.

Comment #69: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  07:00 PM

Gracchus, he didn’t plan prudently, he borrowed to re-do his kitchen, hardly a necessity. Unemployment, and health problems do happen, which is why unemployment insurance exists and why many of us believe there should be universal health insurance. However, nobody is entitled to a house, or even part of the cost of a house, at taxpayer expense.

Families aren’t going to be “thrown into the street”. They can rent an apartments or house. Empty houses will be bought by others, especially once the prices come down. If nobody buys a particular house and the bank doesn’t maintain it and pay the property taxes, the city can seize it.

As for us, a neighborhood doesn’t turn into a “Cracktown” overnight. If we noticed a downward trend, we’d move at the end of our lease.

Av0gadro, you said yourself that people “usually learn eventually, the hard way.” Isn’t it better for them to go back to rental housing now, rather than being rewarded this time and then talked into more debt again? Did anyone really listen when your bank turned them down or did they go down the street to a big bank to get the loan and then badmouth your bank all over town?

I’d also like to note that I never said that those who are upside down on their mortgages should be punished. I have no animosity toward them. I said they shouldn’t be rewarded and taxpayers and future homebuyers shouldn’t be punished.

Comment #70: Jenny  on  10/01  at  07:01 PM

“Rumpy, what’s a veto-proof majority?”


I don’t think this means what you think it means.

Comment #71: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  07:12 PM

Jenny, there are a couple more things you aren’t considering.  While I find your willingness to delay gratification admirable, there seem to be a few gaps in your financial and practical understanding.

1) Homeownership is the American route to family wealth.  That wealth can then translate into things like small business ownership and college educations for one’s offspring.  So borrowing to get into a house is the smart thing to do.  My father, who lived through the Depression, was fond of saying that there was only one thing rent receipts were good for - a comparison to Charmin followed.  Following his advice, I bought my first home on a fixed rate at 23, thanks to a small inheritance that was built on 3 generations of modest homeowners gaining equity through rising homeprices - and a willingness to say that 1600 sq feet was adequate. Town I live in now has an ordinance that says homes MUST be over 2000 sq ft - talk about being priced out of the market and deny frugality!

IN the current situation, here’s how the analysis played out at many a ktichen table: There are only so many hours in a day someone can work, but the housing prices rose as we slept.  Was it a house of cards - yes.  But remember advertising hammered us daily on how we should jump in to the market.

2) Perhaps you have a good landlord or live in an area with a good plentiful rental stock.  Lucky you.  For many, rentals are few and far between, in high crime areas with subprime schools - or at least affordable rentals are.
Then there’s dealing with the landlord.  If you’ve got a good one - great!  Mine was OK, but I lived with a 2” gap in the windows through a midwest winter because he couldn’t afford the replacement windows the historical district required.  And if you have a real slumlord - well that alone can drive someone into an “anything is better than watching rats bite my baby’s toes” homebuying mentality.

3) I wouldn’t mind having a cap on mortgage rates, and if someone is a subprime borrower, then PI insurance until 20% of equity should be enough of a safeguard and burden.

Comment #72: phylosopher  on  10/01  at  07:15 PM

You have still given no cite to the actual law in question in support of the proposition that Glass-Steagall would have prevented Commerical Banks from selling off existing mortgages to Investment Banks.

Section 20, 12 U.S.C. 377 states that no FDIC member bank shall be affiliated with any corporation, association, business trust, or other similar organization engaged principally in the issue, flotation, underwriting, public sale, or distribution of stocks, bonds, debentures, notes or other securities.

[just to state the obvious, that would include the FDIC member bank (i.e. commercial bank) itself. And “other securities” definitely encompasses a bundle of mortgages offered up for sale to the highest bidder who’ll take them]

So I’ll give you this: if the banks issuing the mortgages weren’t FDIC insured, they’d have been in the clear. Sadly for your argument, such mortgage-issuing commercial banks were the tiny exception rather than the rule.

Not even Krugman has explicitly adopted your preposterous position that Glass-Steagall was intended to protect Investment Banks

That’s the second time you falsely claimed I took that position. Quote from this thread, please.

Comment #73: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  07:15 PM

REPUBLICANS FOR (52): Abraham, Allard, Ashcroft, Bennett, Brownback, Bond, Bunning, Burns, Campbell, Chafee, Cochran, Collins, Coverdell, Craig, Crapo, DeWine, Domenici, Enzi, Frist, Gorton, Gramm (Tex.), Grams (Minn.), Grassley, Gregg, Hegel, Hatch, Helms, Hutchinson (Ark.), Hutchison (Tex.), Inhofe, Jeffords, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Mack, McConnell, Murkowski, Nickles, Roberts, Roth, Santorum, Sessions, Smith (N.H.), Smith (Ore.), Snowe, Specter, Stevens, Thomas, Thompson, Thurmond, Voinovich and Warner.

DEMOCRATS FOR (38): Akaka, Baucus, Bayh, Biden, Bingaman, Breaux, Byrd, Cleland, Conrad, Daschle, Dodd, Durbin, Edwards, Feinstein, Graham (Fla.), Hollings, Inouye, Johnson, Kennedy, Kerrey (Neb.), Kerry (Mass.), Kohl, Landrieu, Lautenberg, Leahy, Levin, Lieberman, Lincoln, Moynihan, Murray, Reed (R.L), Reid (Nev.), Robb, Rockefeller, Sarbanes, Schumer, Torricelli and Wyden.

REPUBLICANS AGAINST(1): Shelby.

DEMOCRATS AGAINST(7): Boxer, Bryan, Dorgan, Feingold, Harkin, Mikulski and Wellstone.

NOT VOTING: 2 REPUBLICANS (2): Fitzgerald (voted present) and McCain.


So, let us understand our position - the repeal of Glass-Steagall is the root of this evil, for which Republicans and McCain should pay - despite the fact that Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate Joseph Biden voted for it, and Republican Presidential Candidate McCain did not? 

I think we are letting the narrative get in the way of the facts in this case.

Comment #74: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  07:18 PM

Families aren’t going to be “thrown into the street”. They can rent an apartments or house.

You don’t live in California, do you?  Cities have been forced to let people live in their cars in some areas.  Less affluent cities are condoning shantytowns ... but only for people who can prove they lived in that city.

Oh, but I guess they can all move and get high-paying jobs in growing cities like Phoenix, right?

Comment #75: Mnemosyne  on  10/01  at  07:20 PM

I don’t think this means what you think it means.

That’s not what I asked, Rumpy.  I asked you to define “veto-proof majority.”  Please do so.

Comment #76: Mnemosyne  on  10/01  at  07:22 PM

Gracchus, he didn’t plan prudently, he borrowed to re-do his kitchen, hardly a necessity.

Considering that kitchen improvements are considered a valuable leasehold improvement, it wasn’t a necessity but wasn’t imprudent either. Again, debt is a legitimate tool. Also, is there any way he could have anticipated the lien throwing a spanner into the works?

Families aren’t going to be “thrown into the street”. They can rent an apartments or house.

Perhaps the apartment or house next door to you. Those irresponsible debt-ridden types should make for interesting neighbours.

Empty houses will be bought by others, especially once the prices come down. If nobody buys a particular house and the bank doesn’t maintain it and pay the property taxes, the city can seize it.

Heh ... visit Detroit or Buffalo sometime.

As for us, a neighborhood doesn’t turn into a “Cracktown” overnight. If we noticed a downward trend, we’d move at the end of our lease.

Hope you can afford higher rent in the better neighbourhood, then—and it will be higher, unless you uproot your life to a new city. That’s how the market works.

I’m not trying to be a big meanie, just pointing out that this is a more complex issue than you’re claiming it is.

Comment #77: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  07:22 PM

“shall be affiliated with”

Is a legal term of art.  It most certainly does not mean “shall not sell assets to.”


“other securities” definitely encompasses a bundle of mortgages offered up for sale to the highest bidder who’ll take them”

This is where you fudge things quite a bit, having relied upon Wikipedia as your source material.  So, let’s assume, arguendo, that you are correct - would this mess have been avoided if the Investment Banks bought mortgages one by one - but numbering in the millions, and securitized them?

Comment #78: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  07:24 PM

So, let us understand our position - the repeal of Glass-Steagall is the root of this evil

Let us understand our real position: the repeal of Glass-Steagall removed one important safeguard that might have mitigated this evil. Dems are at fault for helping in that repeal, but it is a classic piece of Republican legislation.

Hope that clarifies.

Comment #79: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  07:24 PM

“That’s not what I asked, Rumpy.  I asked you to define “veto-proof majority.” Please do so.”


Feel free to use your googe-fu.  I feel no particular obligation to assuage your ignorance.

Comment #80: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  07:26 PM

Is a legal term of art.  It most certainly does not mean “shall not sell assets to.”

It means “shall not be in the business of”

</blockquote>To, let’s assume, arguendo, that you are correct - would this mess have been avoided if the Investment Banks bought mortgages one by one - but numbering in the millions, and securitized them?</blockquote>

You can safely make that assumption, unless you think “a bundle of mortgages offered up for sale to the highest bidder who’ll take them” wouldn’t fall under the rubric of “other securities.”

To answer your core question (and I’ll have to go back to the Act to confirm the exact language), i-banks were by definition prohibited from being in the mortgage business under Glass-Steagal, let alone securitising commercial bank assets.

Off to dinner ... I’ll be back, don’t worry.

Comment #81: Gracchus  on  10/01  at  07:31 PM

“classic piece of Republican legislation.”


I do believe the Democrats did a bit more than “help.”  It was their policy then, and now it is a cynical pretext in a political campaign.  Its repeal has actually mitigated what might have otherwise been a worse situation.

Comment #82: Horace Rumpole  on  10/01  at  07:31 PM

Is a legal term of art.  It most certainly does not mean “shall not sell assets to.”

And nowhere has anyone argued that asset transactions were what was prohibited, engaging in securitization of assets is a different story. Read up thread, this has already been covered.

Comment #83: Tyler DiPietro  on  10/01  at  07:36 PM

Feel free to use your googe-fu.  I feel no particular obligation to assuage your ignorance.

In other words, you have no idea what a veto-proof majority is and you’re clueless as to why I would ask that question about this particular piece of legislation.  That’s what I thought.

Comment #84: Mnemosyne  on  10/01  at  08:24 PM

Homeownership is the American route to family wealth

No it isn’t. House prices historically have kept pace with inflation, while stock investments have, historically, outpaced inflation. There are some benefits to owning a house: most of the money for the purchase can be borrowed and the interest is tax-deductible, it forces people to invest each month because part of the mortgage payment goes toward the principal, and if it’s inherited the heir’s basis becomes whatever the fair market value of the house was on the day the decedent died. On the other hand, when house prices are so out-of-whack with rent, it makes more sense to rent and invest the rest each month. As for slumlords, there are laws against them which should be enforced.

Mnemosyne, the articles you linked to didn’t mention foreclosures. In the Santa Barbara article, the city just increased its budget to help those living in their cars move into low-income housing. It’s not a right to live in an expensive area such as Santa Barbara or Los Angeles. I don’t see what’s offensive about suggesting that people move to less expensive areas of California or to a different state. In the Ontario article, a volunteer who is helping the homeless the article focuses on says, “[a] lot of these people are mentally ill,” so it’s not relevant to this discussion.

Considering that kitchen improvements are considered a valuable leasehold improvement, it wasn’t a necessity but wasn’t imprudent either.

In other words, it’s an investment, which means it can make or lose money. He borrowed (by using credit cards) to make the investment, then found out he couldn’t take out a loan at as favorable a rate as he would have liked to pay off the money he’d borrowed. That was his choice, but it’s certainly not the moving sob story he clearly intended it to be. Updating the kitchen could have waited until he’d saved the money or at least until he’d secured the home equity loan.

That’s how the market works.

I’d like the market to be left alone to work, you’re the one who wants the government to intervene in contracts between competent adults who had, or were free to seek, legal advice before signing up for what, to many, looked like a sure thing.  Just look at Phylosopher, still repeating the nonsense about home ownership being the path to wealth and renting being the same as flushing money down the toilet. Whatever benefits a bailout brings to individual homeowners, they’ll still make foolish investments, only this time it will be with money handed to them by taxpayers.

Comment #85: Jenny  on  10/01  at  08:36 PM

It’s not a right to live in an expensive area such as Santa Barbara or Los Angeles. I don’t see what’s offensive about suggesting that people move to less expensive areas of California or to a different state.

With 6 percent unemployment you have no idea why it would be offensive to tell people all their problems will be solved if they just move?  No clue that moving to a new area where you have no family, friends, job, or a place to live might be a shot in the dark that could leave you homeless in a whole new location?  Just can’t understand why everyone isn’t willing to leave their friends and family behind, make their spouse quit their job and their kids leave school on the off-chance that they might be able to find a job in another part of the country? 

If your friend had a miscarriage, I’m guessing you’d say, “Why are you so upset?  You’ll have another one.”

And since you won’t believe that people are being left homeless because of foreclosure unless it actually says “foreclosure” in the headline, here you go:

Growing “tent cities” blamed on foreclosure crisis”

Comment #86: Mnemosyne  on  10/01  at  09:15 PM

I am beginning to think Jenny is a troll. Saying that you want the market to be left alone to work, when the market in question was created almost entirely around loopholes in existing regulations (e.g. the fact that some entities acting as banks were subject to regulation and reserve requirements but others weren’t, the “blessing” of bonds rated AAA regardless of the underlying default risk usw) is disingenuous at best. And the notion that moving tens of thousands of people from one community to another (and ultimately millions across the country, like some latter-day set of Okies) in search of cheaper housing is a reasonable, low-cost response to the foreclosure crisis is just stupid.

Comment #87: paul  on  10/01  at  09:21 PM

Mnemosyne, I didn’t say it would solve everyone’s problems, but it’s a reasonable solution in some situations. It’s not offensive to suggest that if someone’s biggest problem is they’re living on one of the most expensive areas of the country they should move. 

Mnemosyne, aside from the title, the homelessness that article covers seems to be related to job loss and the rising cost of food and gas. A spokesman for HUD is even quoted as saying, “[t]he data predates the housing crisis.” Nobody in that article had lost a house, they’d lost their jobs (and one had lost her apartment). A bailout for homeowners wouldn’t have affected them. A public works program would be more helpful to them. The infrastructure of our country has been neglected for the past eight years, so a new WPA would be a win for everyone.

Paul, calling a poster who disagrees with you a troll is pitiful. I never said that millions should move all the way across the country (what, from California to New York?), just that there are cheaper towns to live in than the ones mentioned in the first set of articles Mnemosyne posted. I think we agree that banks and other entities acted shamefully, we just disagree on whether to bail them out (and thus encourage them to do it all over again asap) or not.

I really am shocked at how many posters believes it’s house—> homeless with no possibilities in between, and also at how many posters want to shovel money at anyone who happened to nominally own a house when this game of musical chairs came to a halt. Nobody has responded to my suggestion that the government start lending money to small businesses and homebuyers. Why not socialize the gain?

Comment #88: Jenny  on  10/02  at  12:23 AM

The funny thing about the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 is that it was a very popular legislative initiative suppprted by both parties.

Horace Rumpole on 10/01 at 02:36 PM

The funny thing about the record budget surpluses that the last legally elected president of the US left the american people in 2000 was that both presidential candidates for the 2000 election said they would continue with the surpluses, and promised to put that money aside for the future.  Only thing is - the one who stole the election in 2000 (and 2004) was lying his drunken cokeheaded deserter a$$ off, and then gave the money to all of his rich elitist friends.

And both my irrelevant example of Republican’t obfuscation methodology, and your ridiculous attempt to blame the Republican’t looting of what’s left of the american treasury (after they’ve had eight years of unbridled pillaging and looting of it) on Democratic politicians, have no connection to the topic of this post.  Maybe if you just said teh Demoncraps are teh suxx0r right off the bat instead of trying to disguise your Republican’t propaganda catapultation it would work out a bit better for you next time…

Comment #89: (: Tom :)  on  10/02  at  08:59 AM

“I really am shocked at how many posters believes it’s house—> homeless with no possibilities in between, and also at how many posters want to shovel money at anyone who happened to nominally own a house when this game of musical chairs came to a halt.”

I’m really shocked at how disconnected from the real world you seem to be.  Why is it so hard to recognize that people sometimes find themselves in situations completely beyond their control — and with our social safety nets disintegrating under constant attack over the last 40-years, those caught out when the music stops might be genuinely screwed?

What really chaps my hide is the ignorant mindset that helping these people is so onerous and expensive it will drag down our whole country.

A little bit of more-than-fair taxation of the obscene quantities of money “earned” by the American Overclass would suffice to pay for all this and more, including Universal Healthcare.  But in today’s twisted political framing, that’s unthinkable.

It is a simple basic human trait for us to want to help each other in times of need — hardwired into our very DNA.  Overcoming that programming through cynical application of fear and greed is a triumph of the “Conservative” philosophy.  Or an incredible tragedy…

Comment #90: MikeEss  on  10/02  at  09:51 AM

Thanks Gracchus.

Jenny, OK technically re-doing the kitchen wasn’t a necessity.  However it was as close to one as you can get.  The cabinets were home-made out of plywood in the early 60s with no backing, so paint chips fell on our food.  The floor had water damage.  The plaster was cracking.  The laminate counter tops peeling.  Metal trim was coming loose and presenting a hazard to our children.  Wiring was substandard.  But no it wasn’t a necessity.

We’d like to move to smaller, less expensive city, so it is a smart thing to do before we putting a house on the market.  At the time, we got a much better short term rate on Credit cards than a home equity loan, so that was pretty smart too and worked out well for me the first time.  If that state of Louisiana hadn’t gone on a fishing expedition for unpaid taxes, it would have worked this time too. 

It not a sob story, you jerk.  It is an example of normal, responsible people getting thrown into a tail spin because of life gives you a smack-down.  We’ll be fine as long as our health remains good.  I understand numbers pretty well. We took informed risks that didn’t pan out.  Plenty of people, like my spouse, are intelligent in many areas but can’t make a spreadsheet mapping out different payment scenarios so are not really capable of making an informed decision on their own.  Plenty of those folks were taken advantage of by loan brokers and don’t deserve to loose their homes because of it.

Comment #91: Ron O  on  10/02  at  12:15 PM

Empty houses will be bought by others, especially once the prices come down. If nobody buys a particular house and the bank doesn’t maintain it and pay the property taxes, the city can seize it.

And do what with it?  The city does only so much maintence on a property, which can bring the house value down.  A lot of times, places with a lot of foreclosed homes see more <a > crime</a>.  Which makes it a lot less likely someone will buy.

And who will be buying homes?  First time homeowners are a small percentage of home buyers.  They are the ones most likely to have a downpayment that doesn’t depend on selling their now reduced-price current home.

And it’s just going to get worse as it goes on.

Comment #92: Suz  on  10/02  at  12:22 PM
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