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Next entry: Best things of 2011: Turntable Previous entry: Ron Paul: The Manic Pixie Dream Candidate

Flying monkeys: why they suck, and why they must be opposed

Feminism

Few things provoke a man gripped by anxious masculinity like the idea of a woman reading, at least a woman reading anything beyond patriarchal assignments in man-pleasing. As any female bookworm can attest, almost no public behavior you can perform is more likely to get men to bother you and demand to know what you’re doing than simply reading a book. It makes sense. Few behaviors signal subjectivity more than reading. A person reading is existing in that moment only for themselves, enjoying the pleasure of being immersed in thought. Reading anything outside of instructive material (make-up guides, cookbooks) suggests a woman may have a reason to exist outside of being support staff for men. No, more than suggests. Puts it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Which is why, historically, the idea of a woman reading has causes so much strife. Female bookworms have been denounced from newsletters and pulpits, and subjected to claims that they were unmarriageable, corrupted, and somehow broken as women.

I wish that I could say that anxious men have abandoned the terror that a reading woman strikes in their hearts, but alas, as those of us frequently interrupted in public for the task of daring to pay attention to our books instead of looking around for a man to serve, it is not to be. And sadly, a 15-year-old atheist girl on Reddit learned the hard way this week what men who don’t believe women are people will do when confronted with hard evidence that woman like to do people-things like read: they will swarm, angrily insisting that you aren’t a person, but merely a hole to fuck. And they’ll do it while pretending to be “joking”.

Rebecca Watson has the blow-by-blow report here, but to summarize: In an atheist subreddit, a 15-year-old girl put up a sweet picture of herself holding Carl Sagan’s marvelous book The Demon-Haunted World, and noting that her religious mother gave it to her. The reaction was hundreds of comments of the “I’d like to stuff a cock in it, ha ha that’s illegal!” variety. Rebecca has the rundown, including how much that got upvoted. Turns out a lot of men are really, really afraid of women who have their own minds, even if those minds lead them to agree on stuff like atheism! After all, a woman with her own mind is likely to form judgments about you, and if you’re a prick, they run a strong chance of being negative judgments. Those women need to be smothered with sexual harassment until they learn a valuable lesson of never appearing to exist for any other reason than cock-sucking and sandwich-making.

But what struck me as emblematic of this entire clusterfuck was that someone posted this cartoon:

Rebecca touched on the most obvious reason this cartoon is wrong, which is that it argues, incorrectly, that posing in the picture with an object that you’re showing off is “female” behavior. Actually, both men and women do it, as Rebecca proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. The cartoonist probably thinks it’s “female” behavior because he only looks at pictures of women for very long, and forgets the dudes he saw do this. Confirmation bias at its worst.

But there’s so much more fail in this. Let us count the ways that this cartoon is epically wrong:

*The assumption that if a behavior is coded “female” instead of “male”, that automatically makes it inferior. This is a really common and unquestioned assumption that even feminists tend to make, especially if they’re newbies. But if you step back and think about it, even if only women posed with objects they want to show off, what’s wrong with that? It’s never articulated, beyond just “women do it, and men don’t”, which isn’t even true. People enjoy pictures with people in them, so why not put people in your pictures? After all, the point is community-building and having fun; there's no reason to take a picture of a fucking book and put it online outside of that. 

*Women can't win, believe me. Knowing that you're going to be accused of preening and vanity if you put pictures of yourself online, I've often avoided doing so. Invariably, what I'm rewarded with is accusations that I'm avoiding doing so because I'm ugly and don't want people to know. Putting the pictures up shuts up the "you're ugly" thing, and brings in the "you're vain" thing, no matter how non-sexualized the picture is. The point is that all choices a woman can make with a camera are wrong. This is basically a way of saying that women should simply have no agency or subjectivity; the problem isn't the choice in pictures, but that she thinks she has a right to  operate a camera and put stuff online at all.

*Blaming the victim. Part of the reason to put up this cartoon is to rationalize the "stuff a cock in it" reaction. The implicit argument here is that men can't help themselves, and seeing a picture of a woman on the internet causes such a rush of lust that they are forced---forced, I tell you---to sexually harass her and even cross the line into making rape threats disguised as jokes. The implication is that women have to do all the work to prevent this from happening, and if a woman puts up a picture that features her visage in it, then she was clearly asking to be abused. There's even an implication that she secretly likes it. 

*Reducing women to sex objects. This cartoon assumes that the only value that the image of a woman might have is sexual, thus the implicit argument that women are trying to be provocative by putting their pictures online. In reality, as demonstrated by the many men who put their pictures online, there's a social value in showing pictures of yourself beyond offering yourself up as spank material. In this girl's case, it's clear that the message being sent is, "I'm so happy today, look at me smile!" If this sets off alarm bells, I suggest it's time to do a little more interior work on your assumptions about women and what they are allowed to be in our society. Humans are social animals, and as our society moves more online, it's useful to replicate some of our social gestures---such as showing our face and smiling---to convey the same ideas we would in one-on-one interactions. Excluding half the human race from that process by saying that any picture of them in inherently porn and can have no other function is wrong.

I expect the "it's just a cartoon!" reactions, so to cut that off at the pass: You do humor a disservice when you use the "just a joke" excuse. Humor that doesn't have a point isn't funny. Since good humor has a point to it, that point can and should be analyzed. Humor is like any other rhetorical device; the content the rhetoric is conveying matters. I accuse people of being humorless all the time, sure, but that's usually because they don't understand the nuances of a joke. This cartoon is a sledgehammer, however, and can be treated as such.

Which leads me to the second point: Rebecca and everyone who has linked her post has received this reaction, invariably from dudes: "Oh boy! People on the internet are mean! Big news!" Which is an attempt to deflect and silence the criticisms. This is why I'm not going to allow that attempt at shaming to work on me: In actuality, this stuff matters. When you step into a male-dominated space where men feel free to dogpile you in an effort to run you off---even if it's a virtual space---you learn really quickly that merely by being female, you are somehow controversial. That feeling sticks with you. As I noted in the comments at Skepchick, situations like this color a woman's entire world. Knowing that so many men find you threatening and have a desire to put you in your place makes a surprising number of otherwise simple interactions fraught. The example I used in comments as going into record stores, at least the more underground ones that sell a lot of vinyl. Often I'll go vinyl shopping, and I'll be the only woman in a record store. Even though I pretty much never run into problems with it, my frequent interactions with men who guard what they believe are "their" spaces elsewhere has made me wary, afraid that the guys in there are secretly looking for reasons to judge me or objectify me or somehow justify their hostility to me. In a sense, it's paranoia---like I said, that actually never does happen, at least in record stores---but it's an ingrained fear because that sort of thing happens all the time to me and to other women who are somehow seen as invading "male" spaces and acting like we have equal rights to enjoy X, Y, or Z. I feel that I'm often the only woman in these sorts of situations shows my fears are widely held, and that there's a vicious cycle created where even friendlier male-dominated spaces tend to stay male-dominated because women have, for good reason, so much fear of coming into male-dominated spaces. You can't tell the friendly ones from the ones where everyone is going to bum-rush you with the "stuff a cock in it" mentality just by looking, you know.  For what it's worth, I tend to go in and do my thing anyway, because a) screw 'em if they don't like it and b) you don't know for sure that they're easily provoked by independent women until they actually show their colors. But it's understandable that many women aren't going to bother.

The result is that women's freedom and options are subtly constrained in all sorts of ways. Want to be a music nerd while female? Since the literal first step of walking in the door is emotionally fraught, even starting out and seeing if you like it is often a step that women aren't going to take. Think you might be into reading comic books? Many women will never find out, because the obstacles of men gawking and acting like assholes outweigh the long-term rewards of finding some titles to get into. Want to get into an atheist forum online? Be prepared to told in many ways, over and over, that you're not wanted as anything but a sucking-and-fucking machine. A lot of men tell women in these situations to suck it up and just do it, but that seriously misunderstands human nature. We want to do these things---go record shopping, buy comics, join forums---for the same reason men do, to have fun. If it's not fun, we're not going to do it. The men who harass women understand this perfectly well, which is why they do it. They want theirs to be male-only spaces, and use harassment as a tool to get that. It's worth pointing out that women aren't the only victims of this, though that's reason enough to speak out. Men who want to have a more integrated experience also are. Since, like I said, women can't tell if a roomful of men is safe or not just by looking at it, they often just err on the side of caution. Therefore, male-dominated spaces that might actually be welcoming more intergration and diversity don't get what they want, and it's the fault of guys who harass in other male-dominated spaces. 

That's why it matters. It's not just about Reddit, but about women being told over and over again that they aren't welcome and that men have a right to drum you out and harass you, and it's your fault if you'd rather not bother. Speaking out and pushing back matters, because when you react to the harassment campaigns with silence, you're accepting the status quo how it is. And that's unacceptable. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:50 AM • (537) Comments

I think it’s just a joke, the basis of which is “some women like to post pictures of themselves, so will make up excuses to do so.”  Is it always true?  No.  Is it true of women more than men?  Judging by the number of photos my women friends put up versus my men friends, there seems to be a gender difference.  At least enough so that I got the joke.

Comment #1: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  11:26 AM

Wow, so you didn’t read the post, huh? Interesting. Personally, I wouldn’t do that if I were you, because you run the risk of what happened here with you, which is you sound like you have no idea what you’re talking about. If I were you, I’d be so embarrassed at being caught so nakedly ignorant of what was actually in the post.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  11:29 AM

When you step into a male-dominated space where men feel free to dogpile you in an effort to run you off—-even if it’s a virtual space—-you learn really quickly that merely by being female, you are somehow controversial.

The reddit spaces I run in are generally pretty well-behaved, at least compared to the large subreddits like r/Atheism (which I avoid like the goddamn plague, despite having a plethora of experience in how religion is harmful and insight into how to involve SCIENCE! in every aspect of your life). But the one that I’ve noticed being the most obnoxious kind of boys’ club lately is r/MyLittlePony.

Usually, in other spaces on reddit and the internet at large, people will use gender neutral or at least binary alternative language (e.g. “sir or madam”); of late I’ve been correcting a misgendered “he” or “sir” around once a day in r/MLP. When I use the term “pegasister”, despite having seen a number of people in the subreddit who consider “brony” to be masculine and “pegasister” to be feminine, I’m accused of “segregating the community” or just being dumb, and it usually sparks an evening of increasingly heated “I’m not a misogynist but” posts.

Simply by pointing out that no, guys, I’m not a dude, I’ve become controversial in the My Little Pony community. How the hell did that happen?

Comment #3: Hobbes  on  12/28  at  11:32 AM

That cartoon -  I saw it just the other day and it totally made me cringe.

It’s a perfect example of the sort of insidious racism/sexism/etc. that you see every day; the kind that subtly reinforces prejudices and stereotypes without making you really think about what it’s doing. 

If you’re a straight guy, you tend to notice women more than men.  Which means that even though what the cartoon is implying is factually wrong and guys totally post their pictures with stuff, part of my brain filters them out, and what I remember is the image above.  And so when I see that cartoon, the negative stereotype of women as preening attention-whores is reinforced totally without my conscious intervention - even though it’s not actually true.

Except that I have worked to construct a mental filter for bullshit, which is why I felt uncomfortable.  I stopped, looked at it, thought about it for a moment, and realized why.  And I rejected it.  But the fact is, a lot of guys won’t.  You really do have to point it out to them that this is crap, and explain why.

Which goes to the larger point, and the big argument that’s currently happening over on Skepchick (between privileged dudes and the rest of the crowd, of course) - it’s not enough to just ignore or not participate.  You need to actively intervene, teach, shame.  Because otherwise the idiots win.

Comment #4: Dave Fried  on  12/28  at  11:33 AM

In my experience, women do photograph themselves and other people more than men. From looking at people’s travel photos, men are more likely to take “scenery” pictures with no people in them. But as Amanda said, why is that superior? Scenery shots are boring. When my dad travels, he brings home a bunch of pictures of buildings and landscapes. They end up being thrown out, because looking at a picture of, say, a castle in Ireland isn’t exciting more than once. It’s more interesting when someone is actually in the picture.

Comment #5: Ashley Herzog  on  12/28  at  11:33 AM

I did read the post.  And understood the post.  I disagreed with it - at least the parts relating to that comic.

Jokes are a comedic exaggeration, not a thesis statement.  Carlin had a good run on why rape can be funny.  Is he pro-rape?

And just went to the original article in question - that article cherry picked posts by idiots.  There were a lot more supportive posts than cruel ones, and those were ignored.

Comment #6: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  11:42 AM

“In my experience, women do photograph themselves and other people more than men. “

And that’s why the joke is funny.  Thank you.

Comment #7: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  11:43 AM

The best reaction to the whole “only joking” bullshit is John Scalzi’s “The Failure Mode of Clever is Asshole.”

Comment #8: East of Weston  on  12/28  at  11:45 AM

Maybe some sexual segregation is a good thing. I’ve read that in all-girl schools, girls tend to study better.

One thing though, in various fora I’ve been called “motherf*cking faggot” for saying something like the GM bailout was a good idea. Or - on this forum, some less than gentle soul invited me to be torn to pieces by hungry sharks. Should I take that as a threat of murder? It certainly made me angry especially because I try pretty hard to be civil.

And this problem of anonymity on comment threads is not new. Does it show men can be mean?

Yeah probably.

But it’s also a good news story because this can be solved pretty easily:

Simply change the rules of that atheist forum and police it a little bit with admins - and bang - yer done. Problem solved.

Something like this occurred on a GM cars forum I joined way back in 2003. A few years in, mods figured out there needed to be really strict civility rules so the first thing they did: ban all profanity.

That single step of banning profanity actually helped in huge measure. Profanity and fightin’ words are practically one in the same, so just that one step made a massive difference.

(Ahem…hint, hint)

 

Comment #9: KingElvis  on  12/28  at  11:46 AM

*wild applause*
Bloody well said, Amanda (and Rebecca’s summary is excellent too).
The bit that really made me gasp was when some so-helpful men suggested that every woman on the Internet ought to take a male pseudonym and that would make everything OK!

Comment #10: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  11:46 AM

I hate it when people take pictures of stuff with no people. You can google image search pictures of stuff and find ones taken by professionals; all that amateurs can add to photos is the personality which comes from including people in those pics.

What is especially heinous about this situation is that they are harassing a teenager who has likely developed less of the skills necessary to ameliorate this sort of shit storm than a grown woman would have. I wonder if these are the sorts of dudes that go around complaining about how various shades of non-religious people refuse to identify as atheist. I have been chewed out about preferring agnostic or non-religious in the past, but for me and plenty of people i know (including men who have witnessed this sort of misogynerd-gasm and been disgusted) do not want to take-on an identity so associated with relentless, evo-psych worshipping dicks.

Comment #11: alysia  on  12/28  at  11:49 AM

Ashley - I’m going to have to disagree with you about the cartoon.

Women probably do take more *people* pictures.  My wife takes lots of pictures with other people in them, not necessarily her.  That’s not what the cartoon is saying.  It wouldn’t be “funny” if it were just saying “women take pictures of people, men take pictures of stuff”.  What it’s saying is “women are attention whores on the internetz”.  It’s making a judgment that we’re all supposed to laugh along with.

Or if it isn’t, it’s another example of “stuff dudes like is better than stuff chicks like, ha ha right guys?” which is just as bad.

But dudes are total attention whores.  I know I am.  I have to stop myself all the time from posting on forums just to see my name there.  The best you can say is that dudes sometimes go about it differently than women.  Which again, if that was the point of the cartoon, still reduces to “stuff dudes do is better that stuff chicks do.”

And, for the sake of argument, say women do post their pics more on the internet than guys.  I’m guessing that a woman - especially a young, attractive woman, might feel like it’s a way to have an “in” and be more popular on forums dominated by straight men.  It’s a way to get acceptance.  I mean, the internet is the place where the phrase “tits or GTFO” was coined.  So it’s not like there isn’t that pressure if you’re a woman - the notion that you’re only tolerated in the “men’s space” because you’re attractive.  You can’t blame some women for doing it or even relishing the attention and the privileged position they get, even if it’s just reinforcing the patriarchy.

Blah blah blah, TL;DR.  You get my point.  Any way you slice it, the cartoon is bullshit.

Comment #12: Dave Fried  on  12/28  at  11:50 AM

FH, you are being extremely disingenuous. The cartoon isn’t trying to say “ha ha, women take pictures of objects in personal context for social reasons statistically more often the men do, ho ho!” The woman in the

Comment #13: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  11:54 AM

Of course I totally agree that the way that girl was harassed was shameful and wrong. And I agree that the guys doing it were a bunch of assholes. What’s less clear to me is what I can do about it, other than ask that Reddit gets some better moderation in place. I try to let people know that harassment isn’t welcome when I post on social media, but I have limited time.

Comment #14: atheist  on  12/28  at  11:55 AM

...(drafted iPad keyboard) cartoon is in front of the object, obscuring the view of it. The joke is “haha, women are vain and inferior! They do not care about objects at all, they just want male approval!”

This is “funny” in the sense of “hateful against an outgroup”, or alternatively “not funny at all unless you are an arsehole”.

Comment #15: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  11:56 AM

@Comment #6: Funky Horns on 12/28 at 10:42 AM

Jokes are a comedic exaggeration, not a thesis statement.  Carlin had a good run on why rape can be funny.  Is he pro-rape?

The joke clearly is making a statement about women and the statement is that women are vain & self-involved. That is the thesis statement of the joke, yeah.

Comment #16: atheist  on  12/28  at  11:58 AM

atheist, I don’t post much on large communities like Reddit, but I have found that IRL a well-placed comment here or there can really tamp down the stupid.

Of course, the funniest way to shoot down that comic would have been to edit in a crudely-drawn dick on the “male” side and repost it.*  Funny and accurate!

*probably also swap the sides for maximum effect

Comment #17: Dave Fried  on  12/28  at  12:01 PM

“The joke clearly is making a statement about women and the statement is that women are vain & self-involved. That is the thesis statement of the joke, yeah.”

No, the thesis statement of the joke is that women take and post more pictures of themselves than men. And it has been supported by several posters here already. 

If you want to read vanity and self-involvement into that behavior, that’s on you.  But I’ve got to be honest - that’s a little sexist of you.

Comment #18: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  12:07 PM

@Comment #17: Dave Fried on 12/28 at 12:01 PM

atheist, I don’t post much on large communities like Reddit, but I have found that IRL a well-placed comment here or there can really tamp down the stupid.

It’s true, but if there’s enough stupid you just can’t tamp it down. Some stupid calls for more powerful methods that the random commenter can’t provide.

Comment #19: atheist  on  12/28  at  12:12 PM

You do humor a disservice when you use the “just a joke” excuse.

Not to mention that it is an insult to other’s intelligence. Even extremely funny people can make a joke that simply falls flat or even is outright offensive. However, everyone already knows that they are probably only joking so in that case there is really no need for apologies and, if there are, they are rarely in the form of “it’s just a joke”. If one find them selves using the “just a joke” excuse, it is because they know they are wrong but are doing all they can to keep from having to admit it.

There is also the fact that the “just a joke” excuse doesn’t ameliorate the wrong but serves to actually highlight it. If David Duke made a disapraging joke about black people and, when called on out on it, tried to excuse it with “just a joke” that would only emphasize his discrimination, not discard it. The same is true here.

Comment #20: JShaffer  on  12/28  at  12:13 PM

@Comment #18: Funky Horns on 12/28 at 11:07 AM

No, the thesis statement of the joke is that women take and post more pictures of themselves than men. And it has been supported by several posters here already.

If you want to read vanity and self-involvement into that behavior, that’s on you.  But I’ve got to be honest - that’s a little sexist of you.

Don’t be dumb. The joke is funny because it’s a way to call women vain. That’s the whole point.

Comment #21: atheist  on  12/28  at  12:17 PM

“The joke is funny”

All right.  Phew.  I thought I was the only one who thought it was funny.

Comment #22: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  12:20 PM

@Comment #22: Funky Horns on 12/28 at 12:20 PM

All right.  Phew.  I thought I was the only one who thought it was funny.

Good one… for an idiot.

Comment #23: atheist  on  12/28  at  12:23 PM

Funky, don’t pretend to be stupider than you are. It gives you so little leeway.

Comment #24: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  12:24 PM

All right.  Phew.  I thought I was the only one who thought it was funny.

No funky houns you are not the only misgoynist on the internet.

Comment #25: Farron  on  12/28  at  12:26 PM

I have a feeling Funky Horns thinks all women can get laid easily too.  “All women”, of course, being the small percentage he finds attractive and notices.  That number probably intersects neatly with the number of pictures of women he notices because the women in them are attractive enough for him to notice.

I personally hate getting my picture taken and always have.  I grit my teeth and smile politely for them because other people (usually male) insist I be in them.

Comment #26: DonnaDiva  on  12/28  at  12:33 PM

“idiot” “stupid” “misgoynist [sic]”

Now there are the reasoned and rational responses that show you’re on the right side of a debate.

Comment #27: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  12:35 PM

I’ll type slowly so as not to confuse you, funky. Now explain, in little words if you must: why does the woman’s face in the cartoon cover up the object so’s you can’t see it, if the joke is just about women’s value-neutral tendency to appear in photos of objects?

Comment #28: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  12:43 PM

Aw, funky, too bad for you that ignoring reasoned argument, selective editing, and repetition aren’t the way you show yourself to be on the right side. You’ve said your bit a few times, now lets learn a new trick or move along, sweetie pie.

Comment #29: alysia  on  12/28  at  12:48 PM

Let’s review, shall we?

Funky here rolled up and knee jerked all over the comment thread, clearly didn’t RTFA, displayed his ignorance of, well, every advance in the study of rhetoric since the Romans, and then got all pissed off when people advised him of these facts in the kindest words available.

Can we officially declare him dumber than a stick and get on with what could be a worthwhile discussion thread?

Comment #30: Matty  on  12/28  at  12:48 PM

Funky, as someone who writes jokes as part of my living, I can say with confidence that difference is not inherently funny. Jokes arise when you put a value on that difference. Here, the joke only works if you think women are shit.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  12:49 PM

White people dance like that.  Black people dance like this.  Hahaha.

The joke never, ever, ever gets old!

I mean, I think the whole “Girls like taking pictures with people in them, hahaha” is a rather weak joke, but I’m surprised people are focusing on this rather than on the root of the problem - a girl was harassed on the internet for daring to post a picture of her with a good book in her hands.  There is just an absolute void of maturity and total dearth of good humor.

Lest we forget, the real joke here was a girl’s religious grandmother cluelessly picking up a Carl Sagan book, reading the title, and unwittingly passing it on to her atheist grand daughter with the intent of making her more religious.  Now, that’s hilarious.

Instead of getting in a good laugh at how silly and provincial our elders can be, you’ve got a dozen pin-head adolescents pile into the thread making “Penis, penis, haha” and “Women are different, lulz” a-humorous remarks while a perfectly hilarious outtake goes completely unappreciated.  That’s really sad.

Comment #32: Zifnab  on  12/28  at  12:52 PM

I think that *some* harassment of women is a result of intra-gender competition between men.  In other words, some men deliberately poison the well in order to sabotage other men’s efforts at meeting women.  For example, a woman who feels unwelcome and “on edge” while shopping for old records or vintage comics is going to have a defensive wall up and will be less receptive to some awkward but well-meaning shy guy who tries to start a conversation.  But a man who is more aggressive will just “plow through” a woman’s social defenses.  And so while more aggressive men tend to do the most “well poisoning”, it’s actually the less aggressive men who are hurt by it the most, which is probably one reason that aggressive men continue to harass women, because in a perverse way they benefit from it.

Comment #33: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  01:01 PM

atheist@14

What’s less clear to me is what I can do about it

Speak up. Downvote.  One thing that’s disappointing about the comments Rebecca highlighted is that not only were they asshole comments, but also they were getting upvoted, which starts a positive feedback cycle where the shitty comments get noticed first, attract more comments, and then attract more upvotes.

There’s a strange stigma in karma-based communities against using the downvote. The feature is there, but people hate to use it, even when they should.  A great source of indignant dKos meta-comments is when one receives a troll rating (I don’t know if it even exists anymore).  I’ve been in Turntable rooms that actually disallow “Lame” votes.  And I suspect Reddit readers feel the same way: they’ll casually upvote something even if they like it a little, but will think twice and three times before downvoting something that really deserves it.  People don’t want to be the party-pooper, even when the party has turned into a mob.  And that’s a problem in an unmoderated community.  It’s a perfect example of what triumphs when good men do nothing.

Comment #34: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  01:01 PM

Yeah, it’s definitely the Nice Guys<sup>TM</sup> who are hurt the most by harassment of girls and women.  Won’t someone think of them?

Comment #35: DonnaDiva  on  12/28  at  01:04 PM

“Funky, as someone who writes jokes as part of my living, I can say with confidence that difference is not inherently funny. Jokes arise when you put a value on that difference. Here, the joke only works if you think women are shit.”

That’s actually not true.  If the difference is something that people hadn’t thought of, pointing out the difference can be funny.  “Holy shit, Group A does exhibit that behavior!  Ha ha ha ha!”  It’s why impressions can be funny - the comedian picks out little behaviors we hadn’t consciously noticed and exaggerates them so we recognize them.  It doesn’t have to be mean spirited. 

But you’re right, sometimes putting a value on the difference is the crux of the joke.  And yes, I think that’s part of what makes this joke funny - women (in general) spend more time and money on their appearance than men.  Is it vanity?  Kowtowing to the patriarchy?  Who knows.  But it’s a gender difference that exists in our culture, and this joke plays on that.

It’s not saying that women are “shit.”  It’s saying that women, in general, take and show more photos of themselves than men.  It’s true, and it’s probably not worth a thousand word angry screed.

Comment #36: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  01:06 PM

Zifnab, the only reason I’m not focusing on what happened to that girl is because I’ve got a smaller than normal reserve of energy for being furious at the internet today.

Also, I don’t read Reddit.  But I promise you, I will take a fucking axe to anyone who acts like that on a forum I actually spend time on.  I’ve done it before.

Comment #37: Dave Fried  on  12/28  at  01:07 PM

Gosh, maybe women really are more likely to take photos of themselves with stuff. Except they’re not. But you know what men are more likely to do? Take photos of themselves raping someone they drugged. Or make public private videos they took of their ex girlfriend after they get dumped. Or tweet their dickpics.

God, women really are fucking bitches, aren’t they? All making men do things like that.

Comment #38: Ross Lincoln  on  12/28  at  01:08 PM

Fun fact: did you know that saying “it’s true” makes something true? It’s true.

Comment #39: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  01:11 PM

Funky, dont suppose you have any photos youd like to share? I’m trying to start a “Misogyny Mike"reddit meme and I have a feeling you’d be perfect

Comment #40: Dan  on  12/28  at  01:12 PM

So what about the actual content of the article, which is about a 15 year old getting sexually harassed and threatened with rape for posting a picture (the joke here being used to try to defend the behavior by saying she wants the attention or else she would not have put the picture up)? Is threatening to rape young teens and creating certain spaces where women just cannot go unless they have incredibly thick skin alright to talk about? Did you read the article before you decided that everyone needed to know that our little discussion is not worth being on the internet?

Comment #41: alysia  on  12/28  at  01:16 PM

“Jokes are a comedic exaggeration, not a thesis statement.  Carlin had a good run on why rape can be funny.  Is he pro-rape?”

Put that way, I would say yes. I’ve not heard the sketch, but in my experience, generally by default anyone who makes a joke of rape belittles how heinous a crime it truly is. Which in our culture translates to a lot of slut shaming, victim blaming bullshit that allows rapists to get off scott free over and over and over again.

The only comedian I’ve ever heard make a rape joke work is Wanda Sykes with her detachable vagina sketch. Which is funny because she makes the point that the biggest reason rape sucks is because attached to that body part someone is violating there’s another human being who is not ok with what is going on in their body. Joking “hur hur I’m going to rape you” is not funny because you expect someone to laugh at someone else’s pain. Not only that, but it sounds like a thinly coded threat. Expecting someone to laugh at something so unfunny and scary is especially cruel. Not to mention, if a woman DID laugh in that scenario to try to lighten the mood and then was raped by the joker, if she reported the rape, police, lawyers, everyone would be all over her for not “realizing the danger and getting herself out in time” at least or say “she wanted it, she laughed at the rape joke!” at worst.

Rape jokes generally are pro-rape. And are generally very unfunny.

Comment #42: LaylaBug  on  12/28  at  01:17 PM

“But you know what men are more likely to do? Take photos of themselves raping someone they drugged. Or make public private videos they took of their ex girlfriend after they get dumped. Or tweet their dickpics.”

You are correct.  There are behaviors that are more common for one gender or another to engage in.  And pointing out those male behaviors is encouraged, when the behaviors are negative.  But pointing out those female behaviors is sexist, damn it, because everyone is exactly the same!

(Are some of the differences genetic?  Are they all conditioned by society?  I’m not taking a position on that point in this discussion.)

Comment #43: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  01:18 PM

@Comment #34: Cris (without an H)  on 12/28 at 01:01 PM

There’s a strange stigma in karma-based communities against using the downvote. The feature is there, but people hate to use it, even when they should.

Good point.

I guess in the free-for-all of the internet, people feel a little bit insecure sometimes, and therefore hate to consider voting others down because it could happen to them too? That’s one theory anyhow.

Comment #44: atheist  on  12/28  at  01:18 PM

The OP’s comments are worth reading:

“For the record, the pedo-ish coments disgust me. You have no idea what me or the other men and women on this site have been through. I’m sure if someone who has been sexually abused read through this they’d be upset. Just stop. Seriously. It’s possible to be funny without being creepy.”

“I think I should delete the whole post. It’s causing more harm than good. I wanted apprieciation for my mother’s acceptance, not to be reduced to someone people think they can message because I’m “cute” and want nudes. It’s awful, really.”

“I think I’m going to unsubscribe to r/atheism in favor of smaller, more wholesome secular subreddits. The post wasn’t even about me, or my face. That’s not what r/atheism is supposed to be about. I downvoted my own post, it’s sad. I thought I could share a story about my mother’s acceptance, but instead I recieve degrading and creepy comments even though I’m 15.”

Looks like the guys accomplished their goal: they kicked the girl out of their territory with their disgusting posts.

Comment #45: Baruk  on  12/28  at  01:19 PM

She seems amazingly mature for a 15 year old. I am just so angry that she even had to go through that kind of experience.

Comment #46: Farron  on  12/28  at  01:26 PM

The girl’s mother didn’t think the Sagan book was religious, Zifnab. She knew what it was about and bought her it anyway, out of acceptance and generosity. Should’ve been a heartwarming tale of families overcoming differences. I hope the kerfuffle hasn’t poisoned the whole episode for the 15 year old in question, and that she has enough mental energy left to read the book with…

Comment #47: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  01:26 PM

Is it vanity?  Kowtowing to the patriarchy?  Who knows.

It’s a mystery. I almost wish hundreds of feminists had written thousands of essays on the subject, so that Shitty Horns could ignore them his entire life and spend his days being a dickbag on someone else’s blog.

Oh wait, that happened.

 

Comment #48: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  01:26 PM

  The MST3K defense, that something is only a movie or a cartoon or whatever really gets to me on a variety of levels. First, as Amanda pointed out, its used to defend all sorts of sexist, racist, and evil things. Any sexist, racist, homphobic, or bigoted work gets a free pass under the MST3K pass. The creator and fans just get to relax and say its just a show. The other reason that the MST3K defense gets to me is that it is very anti-intellectual. It prevents things from being analyzed and examined. Whenever somebody points out the negative aspects of beloved movie, show, or book; somebody is bound to invoke the MST3K defense so they do not have to confront the unfortunate aspects of something that they love. The MST3K defense is rather reactionary when you thing about it.

Comment #49: Lee  on  12/28  at  01:28 PM

“idiot” “stupid” “misgoynist [sic]”

Now there are the reasoned and rational responses that show you’re on the right side of a debate.

Hey man, if you let that get to you, it’s because you’re weak and emotional.

At least, that’s what I’ve been told when I’ve objected to hate speech against women on internet forums.

In any case, those insults are only unreasoned and irrational if there is no evidence that you are, in fact, a misogynist of less than average intelligence.

A truly intelligent person would be able to see that. You can’t. Ergo…

Comment #50: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  01:28 PM

Funky, did you read the post though? This wasn’t presented free of context in a “gender differences haha”  sort of way. It was posted on a thread were a CHILD told a funny story and included a picture then proceeded to get tons of sexual harassment and threats. In that context, the “joke” implied that women are always posting pictures of themselves for attention, therefore, the point of her post must have been that she must of wanted to provoke creepy thoughts in creepy dudes and was “asking” for all the harassing comments she received.

And people are not acting hostile towards you because you are a man or because you have a differing opinion; the response your getting is because you seem to have either not read the article beyond the picture, or else read the article and entirely missed the point, but have proceeded to talk to everyone like you are the arbiter of what is important and you are the only one who knows what is going on here.

Comment #51: alysia  on  12/28  at  01:29 PM

Funky said: It’s true, and it’s probably not worth a thousand word angry screed.

Yea, Amanda, why are you so *angry*?  *Shrill* even!  *eyeroll*

Funky said: You are correct.  There are behaviors that are more common for one gender or another to engage in.  And pointing out those male behaviors is encouraged, when the behaviors are negative.  But pointing out those female behaviors is sexist, damn it, because everyone is exactly the same!

Actually, no.  If there are behaviors that are more common for one gender than for the other, it is not because those behaviors are essentially masculine or feminine but rather because men and women have been socialized to perform those behaviors.  And, because we live under the thumb of patriarchy, those behaviors which are associated *by that socialization* with masculinity are valued as positive and those that are associated with femininity are cast as negative.

In this case, the behavior in question (seeking attention by posting self-portraits on the Internet while professing to be showing off an object) is not even truthfully one performed more often by women.  It is simply negative behavior (coded as selfish) and so it gets coded as feminine despite the fact that men do it just as much as women do.

So its a doubly sexist joke.  The Female, therefore Bad construction is sexist enough.  But this construction is Bad, therefore female. 

I really don’t know how to break it down any more simply than that.  This isn’t even Feminism 101.  This is like Remedial Comprehension of Culture.  In other words, if you don’t get it, you are actively trying not to get it.

Comment #52: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/28  at  01:31 PM

I guess in the free-for-all of the internet, people feel a little bit insecure sometimes, and therefore hate to consider voting others down because it could happen to them too? That’s one theory anyhow.

Personally, I have a hard time doing something if no one else has done so first (kind of like breaking hearts in cards). I don’t up or down-vote often, but it is harder for me to get myself to down-vote than up-vote in the few spaces I go that allow it. Part of it is that I fear being that weirdo who doesn’t like whatever everyone else likes, and (irrationally, I know) I fear getting negative attention for it.

Comment #53: Jayn Newell  on  12/28  at  01:32 PM

Miguel @33

You’re not working in evo-psych are you? 

More seriously I’m not sure how your hypothesis would even work - sure women might be less receptive to well meaning shy guy but presumably they’re also going to be extremely unreceptive to the asshole who was just rude to her in the record store.

P.S.

Funky - after your last post consider looking up and pondering the meaning of the word “mansplain”

Comment #54: bexley  on  12/28  at  01:32 PM

“I think I’m going to unsubscribe to r/atheism in favor of smaller, more wholesome secular subreddits. The post wasn’t even about me, or my face. That’s not what r/atheism is supposed to be about. I downvoted my own post, it’s sad. I thought I could share a story about my mother’s acceptance, but instead I recieve degrading and creepy comments even though I’m 15.”

Yeah, you know how sometimes men in the Skeptic community wonder why they can’t seem to attract women to their movement?  THIS IS WHY.  Assholes.

Comment #55: Blitzgal  on  12/28  at  01:34 PM

@Comment #45: Baruk on 12/28 at 01:19 PM

Looks like the guys accomplished their goal: they kicked the girl out of their territory with their disgusting posts.

It’s as if there is a constant low-grade attack done on behalf of “The Patriarchy” to deny spaces to women. Is “The Patriarchy” simply trying to preserve its ideal of a world by and for men?

Comment #56: atheist  on  12/28  at  01:34 PM

On another note I was actually looking for a good example for a discussion on another community on how atheism is no guarantee that someone isnt a douche so hey thanks Redditors!

Comment #57: Dan  on  12/28  at  01:34 PM

Yes, that cartoon was presented as a way of JUSTIFYING the lecherous speculation about her age, the hundred-odd metaphors for having sex with her, and of course all the rape jokes and outright rape threats.

But naaaah, that’s not sexist—using women’s alleged vanity and shallowness to justify hurling sexualized verbal abuse at them. That’s not sexist at all! I’m sure if something were REALLY sexist, FH would be the first to be up in arms about it.

Look, Funky Horns: a meme just for you!

http://www.quickmeme.com/Scumbag-Privilege-Denying-rAtheism/?upcoming

Comment #58: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  01:35 PM

There is a fear in dudes that women may actually be thinking some stuff and might just be smarter even but there is also a type of jealously that other people might care about the opinion of the woman more, if they are “hot” they consider that unfair but what they consider hot is often a result of taking care of yourself, some positive thinking, and intelligence, nothing that most dudes want to indulge in except, of course, the latter which is usually a competition to the death.

This reminds me of a thread I saw recently where some dudes were going on about “duck lips” and posting pics of that particular offense with similar comments, most of who had profile pics of themselves with their motorcycle, to be fair one had a pic of just the motorbike, a Harley of course, but thats probably because he’s ugly.

Comment #59: ewellone  on  12/28  at  01:36 PM

Maybe the question should be, in the context of this sort of conflict, do we consider “The Patriarchy” to be attempting to maintain control of social space? Or is it trying to completely remove femaleness from social space? Or what?

Comment #60: atheist  on  12/28  at  01:38 PM

What strikes me is that every single time a person writes an article about this exact topic, the very first comment is always, ALWAYS, some clueless dude “rebutting” the article by doing exactly—EXACTLY!—what the article was talking about.

For example:  Funky Horns in this thread.  For other examples: every single article linked from this post.  It’s like talking to a fucking wall.  Feminist:  “Women are treated differently in online spaces and that is bad.”  Idiots:  “Women aren’t treated differently.  They’re only treated differently because they are attention whores.  And besides, women aren’t treated differently.  They just need to not tell us dudes that they have boobs, and then they won’t be treated differently.  Also, sexism doesn’t exist.”  Feminist:  “Headdesk”.

Comment #61: Denise  on  12/28  at  01:47 PM

“The assumption that if a behavior is coded “female” instead of “male”, that automatically makes it inferior.”

Jesus that is so true and seemingly obvious and yet I completely missed it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Comment #62: Rebecca Watson  on  12/28  at  01:49 PM

atheist, imo it’s more about control of social space and of women than to remove femaleness from social space.

Comment #63: Farron  on  12/28  at  01:49 PM

Yeah, you know how sometimes men in the Skeptic community wonder why they can’t seem to attract women to their movement?  THIS IS WHY.  Assholes.

Several years ago I went to a few local secular humanist skeptic association meetings.  I quit going because of the creepy dudes creeping on me.  I had several variations of the now famous Elevator Incident happen to me and I figured it wasn’t worth it.  I’m considering trying it again now that I’m no longer “hot” and have a boyfriend to see if there’s more diversity.

Comment #64: DonnaDiva  on  12/28  at  01:55 PM

Lee@49: Please don’t use “MST3K” in this context. You’re right, the theme song says “repeat to yourself ‘It’s just a show’” but that’s done in the service of self-deprecation: they’re explaining that they’re too cheap to pull off convincing, consistent science fiction.  And they’re deflating the geek tendency to over-explain things that don’t need explaining.

It’s only an MST3K defense if part of your “it’s just a show” is “it’s just a lousy show.”  We nerdpick at inconsistencies in Avatar or Lord of the Rings or even The Phantom Menace because we have high expectations of those things.  We don’t bother nerdpicking the plot holes in Cleopatra 2525 because it’s just a corny show, for pete’s sake.

And none of this is the same thing as Ann Coulter saying “why are you getting mad that I wished thousands of liberals would die in a fiery explosion, IT’S JUST A JOKE!” Which is closer to the defense you get from rape-joke apologists.

Comment #65: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  01:56 PM

Re #60-
OK, I’m probably going to say this wrong, but here’s my take- “being a man” is rightly seen as a pain in the ass by any man honest enough with themselves to admit it.  As the old saying goes, it must constantly be defended.  Along the lines of yesterday’s post about eating vegetables, there’s a feeling that “if I had to eat them when I was a kid, my kids will too!” That gets applied to women.  So the answer to your question is simple- the patriarchy maintains control of both women and men by keeping femaleness out.

Comment #66: Satanicpanic  on  12/28  at  01:56 PM

Well, 63,  one way to control social space is to drive women out of it entirely——or so intimidate them that they don’t dare to pipe up with objections.

Comment #67: ginmar  on  12/28  at  01:57 PM

Funky, your assumption that your penis makes you more knowledgeable than a professional humorist on what makes a joke funny has been noted, and rejected.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  02:03 PM

@54 Bexley

I don’t think that men who harass women consciously think to themselves, “I’m going to be hostile to women, and that’s going to make women distrust men, which in turn will make it more difficult for non-asshole men to meet women.”  However, I do think that on an unconscious level, aggressive, harassing men sense that a culture in which women are respected and feel able to let their guard down would also a culture in which the ability to “plow through” and successfully pull off an aggressive pick-up routine—qualities that assholes often have in abundance—will be less valuable.  So aggressive men probably sense a personal advantage in keeping women “in their place” even though they probably haven’t thought through exactly why they are behaving the way they are. 

And by the way, in my first comment I wasn’t implying that hostility toward women hurts non-asshole men more than it hurts women.  It obviously hurts women the most, and yes, it sucks that a 15 y.o. girl can’t post on Reddit without getting a stream of vulgarity in response.  I certainly co-sign the “don’t do that” posts on harassment such as this one.  But it’s also helpful to understand *why* men harass in the first place, and I think that “poisoning the well” for other men is one reason.  And it isn’t as though I’m the first person who has thought of this.  I’ve talked with other guys (none, as far as I know, who were “working in evo-psych”) who also agree that asshole men “poison the well” deliberately.

Comment #69: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  02:09 PM

First photography class I ever took, the dude instructor told us to put faces in our shots, as both a compositional aid and a way to generate viewer interest. So, STFU, cartoon.

Comment #70: benvolio  on  12/28  at  02:10 PM

You know, my first thought when the subject of a human body being in the picture along with the object being displayed is not of a vain woman wanting to be in the picture, but of a lustful man wanting to add some eye candy.

I note that it sounds as though the male atheists presumed that was what the chick was doing in the picture….

Comment #71: Dr. Psycho  on  12/28  at  02:11 PM

that was a joke? look, lame attempts at jokes, especially those based on insulting (or trying to) someone “different,” are only “funny” if YOU ARE NOT INTELLIGENT. you have to have NO sense of humor to even smile at something that stupid. because real humor confuses your poor little monkey brain. christ. that’s right folks, if you think that cartoon and the like are actual humor, i think you are EXTRAORDINARILY DUMB.

Comment #72: chibi  on  12/28  at  02:15 PM

Actually, Amanda, my expertise comes from being a professional comedy writer my entire adult life.

Although, I’ll admit that I’ve never called myself (or heard another pro writer refer to herself) as a “humorist.”. So you’ve got me there.

I did learn something about comedy today:  There are no genetic behavioral differences between men and women, on average. All differences have been conditioned by the patriarchy.  All attempts at humor that point out gender differences are, by definition, sexist.

Score one for the humorists.

Comment #73: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  02:16 PM

I wasn’t aware that being unintentionally hilarious was something you could build a career around.

Comment #74: Dan  on  12/28  at  02:17 PM

Why men harass women? Because they’re sexist assholes. Why men make rape threats to a kid?  Because they’re worse than garden variety sexist assholes.

It’s not complicated. They like hurting women—-and girls. And if girls aren’t safe, then who is?

And if anybody says “It’s just the internet,” I will scream. Do these guys stop existing once the computer’s turned off?  Do they stop thinking about what they’d like to do to a fifteen-year-old girl if they could have the same anonymity? They don’t care what she wants,  it’s just what they want.

Comment #75: ginmar  on  12/28  at  02:17 PM

I think it’s just a joke, the basis of which is “some women like to post pictures of themselves, so will make up excuses to do so.”  Is it always true?  No.  Is it true of women more than men?  Judging by the number of photos my women friends put up versus my men friends, there seems to be a gender difference.  At least enough so that I got the joke.

No, the thesis statement of the joke is that women take and post more pictures of themselves than men. And it has been supported by several posters here already.

If you want to read vanity and self-involvement into that behavior, that’s on you.  But I’ve got to be honest - that’s a little sexist of you.

Haha yes Funky they post more pictures of themselves because women just have the post-more-pictures of themselves gene. No judgments about vanity whatsoever!

oh man, fantastic.

Comment #76: Dan  on  12/28  at  02:19 PM

I think that *some* harassment of women is a result of intra-gender competition between men.  In other words, some men deliberately poison the well in order to sabotage other men’s efforts at meeting women.  For example, a woman who feels unwelcome and “on edge” while shopping for old records or vintage comics is going to have a defensive wall up and will be less receptive to some awkward but well-meaning shy guy who tries to start a conversation.  But a man who is more aggressive will just “plow through” a woman’s social defenses.  And so while more aggressive men tend to do the most “well poisoning”, it’s actually the less aggressive men who are hurt by it the most, which is probably one reason that aggressive men continue to harass women, because in a perverse way they benefit from it.

That’d be so true if your assumptions weren’t like, completely not true.  “Well-meaning shy guys” spew some of the most vitriolic hatred to women online, because like, get this, they hate women too.  Men aren’t hateful to women to make them distrustful of men, they’re hateful to women to put them in place because they hate them.

As an example, have you ever been to any nerd forum ever in the history of the universe?

Comment #77: Toitle  on  12/28  at  02:26 PM

Since this is now the Funky Horns megathread rather than wasting time trying to get away from the derail we might as well start working on why he’s so determinedly incapable of grasping simple, obvious context.

Like is it really that threatening to admit that an obviously sexist, victim-blaming cartoon is sexist and victim-blaming? Why do people so rapidly go from proudly displaying their misogyny to, as soon as they’re called on it, falling over themselves to explain how they couldn’t possibly have meant any of that, for reals? Are they really so cowardly that they can’t face any criticism of their atrocious views without trying to divert them, or are they just so soaked in priviledge that it’s not enough to be able to freely indulge their sexism, they need to be reassured what open-minded, tolerant progressive dudes they are while doing it?

Really, I’d love to know.

Comment #78: Dan  on  12/28  at  02:29 PM

Are they really so cowardly that they can’t face any criticism of their atrocious views without trying to divert them, or are they just so soaked in priviledge that it’s not enough to be able to freely indulge their sexism, they need to be reassured what open-minded, tolerant progressive dudes they are while doing it?

Both of those things are true.

Comment #79: Toitle  on  12/28  at  02:31 PM

This post made me come to a belated but important realization: it was way past time to delete my reddit account.

Comment #80: pillsy  on  12/28  at  02:31 PM

Funky:

There very well might be genetic behavioral differences between men and women.  But I defy you to deduce which ones are genetically based and which ones are the result of a huge pile on of socialization. 

And in this case, when the behavior in question involves cameras and the internet, I think it is fairly safe to say that the behavior is not caused by some cavewoman gene that laid dormant waiting for the invention of advanced communication technology.

On the plus side, however, you totally ripped apart that strawman!

Comment #81: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/28  at  02:32 PM

When I saw the cartoon, I didn’t understand the titles at first and thought that it meant the second photo was for men, you know, adding a pretty girl in front of a sports car or whatnot sells more photos than just the sportscar.

But no, it was something stupid.

Comment #82: Crissa  on  12/28  at  02:35 PM

#66 Satanicpanic:

So the answer to your question is simple- the patriarchy maintains control of both women and men by keeping femaleness out.

Cheers to this.  It’s one reason I make a bad feminist but still try to hang out around here.  The Patriarchy is bad for everyone - guys and girls alike - because its just another brand of bullying.  We create a bunch of social taboos that restrict culture and freedom, then selectively punish people for otherwise harmless transgressions.  It’s how you keep the sheep in line and prevent people from being happy unless they’re catering to your expectations.  Threaten us and we’ll label you “weird”, then cast you out.  Behold the long list of social taboos - one of which you must have violated at some point - that we can use against you.

Comment #83: Zifnab  on  12/28  at  02:35 PM

Funky Horns, you said, “All attempts at humor that point out gender differences are, by definition, sexist. ”  While this is not true, it is true that such humor is very often sexist.  Similarly, humor that points out race differences, while not necessarily racist, frequently is.  If you are not sure if your joke is sexist or racist consider not making it till you figure that out.  One way you can tell if a joke is racist is if a bunch of members of the less privileged race mentioned in the joke tell you that it is racist when they hear it.  Here you have a bunch of women telling you that this cartoon is sexist, perhaps you should listen to them, as they probably have insights into sexism that you do not.

Comment #84: Fatman  on  12/28  at  02:37 PM

Amanda,

While I agree with you completely about the effect (exclusion of women from public spaces), I partly disagree with you about the cause.  I think a lot of that dreadful behavior stems from a herd/lemming bonding behavior.  One guy says/does something wrong, and because no one shames him, other men (probably should put men in scare quotes…) jump in and agree in order to feel part of the team.  The assholeishness escalates and you have men ‘joking’ about gang raping a fifteen-year old.  One reason the Marlboro Man, lone-wolf image is so powerful is because many men, in reality, are the exact opposite:  they fall in line at the drop of a hat.  They are conformist.  Not sure how we change that.  (I do agree that men were doing this crap long before the internet).

What we can change (and I realize I’m preaching to the choir) is what kinds of behavior are unaceptable:  I doubt this sort of objectification would have occurred if the girl were ten years old.  That we can change through shaming.

Comment #85: Mike the Mad Biologist  on  12/28  at  02:41 PM

So much mansplaining going on in these comments.

Comment #86: Farron  on  12/28  at  02:43 PM

Fatman: Yes, let’s peer review jokes for political correctness. Great idea.

Comment #87: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  02:45 PM

Maybe the question should be, in the context of this sort of conflict, do we consider “The Patriarchy” to be attempting to maintain control of social space? Or is it trying to completely remove femaleness from social space? Or what?

My sense is, drive out a few particularly outspoken women in order to encourage the rest to keep their heads down and leave the smart talk to the menfolk. They don’t mind women there if those women know their place. A strip club has tons of women in it, but it sure is a safe space for men.

Comment #88: Triplanetary  on  12/28  at  02:47 PM

The use of “poisoning the well” to refer to women seriously creeps me out.

Comment #89: hockubs  on  12/28  at  02:48 PM

@Comment #87: Funky Horns on 12/28 at 02:45 PM

Fatman: Yes, let’s peer review jokes for political correctness. Great idea.

Shut the fuck up.

Comment #90: atheist  on  12/28  at  02:51 PM

Fatman: Yes, let’s peer review jokes for political correctness. Great idea.

“I mean next, you’ll be asking me to peer review them for funniness. And we all know how that will work out for me. Why do you hate lame bullshit racist and sexist jokes so much?!”

Don’t worry, I’m dialing the waaahmbulance for you now.

Comment #91: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  02:52 PM

@Lee #49:

This is unabashedly trivial, and I don’t disagree with the substance of your comment, but gosh darn it, I don’t think it’s fair to call a dismissal of political critique the “MST3K defense”.  I think MST3K mocks both the questionable aesthetics and the questionable values of its targets.  The context of the “it’s just a show” line makes clear that they are responding to people who require super-realism, (i.e.: “This is a terrible depiction of Championship Chess! A grandmaster would never use the Taimonov Line against the Benoni in that situation!”).  And that kind of critique, and critiques about “other science facts,” deserve mockery for they often mask a heinous ideology themselves (as in the policing of early Hard-Core Sci Fi).

Comment #92: argus  on  12/28  at  02:52 PM

Ooof, you’re a professional comedy writer, Funky? Wait, let me guess: You write for “Two and a Half Men”? That would explain a lot. Whatever you’re getting paid, it’s definitely too much.

Comment #93: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  02:53 PM

What the cartoon is implicitly arguing for is a world of things rather than people—if a human is in the picture, they must be ignorable (by white het males) or objectifiable in some way. 

Being socially conditioned to rob others of their humanity is heee-laaaarious! 

It’s the basic vocabulary of mainstream advertising, so it’s kind of unsurprising that sites like reddit turn into amateur/gonzo versions of ads, where everything is filtered through the frame of reference that dictates that everything must be ownable or mockable.  Here is a picture of some things, and people turned into things, that you might like to consume. 

Atheism and adolescent solipsism go well together, as do adolescent solipsism and consumerism.  It’s not a refutation of atheism, but where the three overlap is not a happy place.

Comment #94: Angry Geometer  on  12/28  at  02:55 PM

Also, I love that Funky thinks there’s a gene that makes women put themselves in pictures. Where on the genome would you guess that is, Funky? How did we evolve that, when really cameras have only been in use for a couple hundred years, and digital cameras for about 20?

Comment #95: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  02:55 PM

@77 Toitle:  “[H]ave you ever been to any nerd forum ever in the history of the universe?”

You mean a Star Trek convention or that sort of thing?  No, but my friends in high school were pretty nerdy, and one in particular I’d say was a “well-meaning shy guy.”  And I don’t recall he ever “spewed vitriolic hatred” of women.  (Because if he did, he wouldn’t have been “well-meaning” would he?) 

Your broader point, I imagine, is that there are men who are shy, sexually unsuccessful introverts who spew just as much women hating bile as do more aggressive men.  Okay, so perhaps there are.  (They would not be anything like most of the shy guys I’ve known in my life, but then again I don’t generally befriend assholes.)  Yet it’s still quite possible for a shy asshole to try to poison the well for other men who are shy non-assholes, isn’t it?

Comment #96: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  02:57 PM

#89 It creeps me out too.  And it sounds like NiceGuy whining.

Comment #97: Farron  on  12/28  at  02:59 PM

@78: I often ask grotesque sexists why it’s some important to them to believe there are genetic differences like, um, the frequencey of taking pictures of yourself. The answer is usually some variation of claiming that people who are skeptical of the genetic differences are the ones who have a problem, not them. I can actually explain why I do what I do pretty well: As a woman whose had to live under the constraints constructed by sexists like Funky, I’m disinclined to accept derogatory claims about women without evidence to support them. I find sexists tend not to be so happy to explain their motives, suggesting they aren’t very nice and honorable ones.

Comment #98: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  03:01 PM

@Funky:

The fact that you’ve limited your comments to the cartoon itself and its implications (or lack thereof, as you insist) rather than including it in its context simply emphasizes the fact that you know exactly why it was discussed here.  I don’t see a word from you about how or why it was clearly used to justify and minimize some truly awful sentiments being expressed to a 15-year-old girl.  By jumping in with your defense of the “joke”, you’ve managed to thread-jack instead of leaving room for insightful comments, from which you might have actually learned something.  But that’s not really why you’re here, is it?

Comment #99: mythbri  on  12/28  at  03:03 PM

@Comment #63: Farron on 12/28 at 12:49 PM

@Comment #67: ginmar on 12/28 at 12:57 PM

atheist, imo it’s more about control of social space and of women than to remove femaleness from social space.

Well, 63,  one way to control social space is to drive women out of it entirely——or so intimidate them that they don’t dare to pipe up with objections.

Interesting. I can imagine both kinds of patriarchies… one that wants to control femaleness, one that wants to eradicate femaleness.  I guess it is a continuum. I agree we’re probably looking at the former type here. Though as ginmar points out, it could be really hard to tell.

 

Comment #100: atheist  on  12/28  at  03:03 PM

“attempts at humor that point out gender differences”

Social conditioning isn’t funny.  True humor is social deconditioning.  Powerful mocking powerless: social conditioning.  Powerless mocking powerful: social deconditioning. 

Comment #101: Angry Geometer  on  12/28  at  03:03 PM

I couldn’t agree with you more about the experience this young woman had on Reddit or the cartoon.  But your assertion that men bother women who read and demand to know what they are doing when women dare to “pay attention to our books instead of looking around for a man to serve” gave me pause.

Did you intend to claim that males approach women who read solely to make sure the woman understands that she exists only for “cock-sucking and sandwich making?”  This is the way it sounds.

In any event, it appears to me that the young woman in question generated the offensive comments because she is attractive and female, not because she held up a book, much less read one.

Comment #102: R. Stanton Scott  on  12/28  at  03:07 PM

On the question of why men police boundaries like this, atheist, I think it’s pretty simple to understand.

1) Men are socialized to believe that their maleness makes them special and better than women.
2) Many men cling to this as the source of their self-esteem.
3) When a woman presents evidence that actually, women are basically like men and that men aren’t special, they panic. (Such as presenting evidence that women read the same books and have the same kind of subjectivity as men.)
4) And so they freak out and try to insist that women are still an inferior group that exists to serve the only people who matter, men.

Male-dominated spaces don’t completely exclude all women forever. Women are often allowed in on the condition they never challenge the prevailing belief that women exist for men. So if you don’t offer opinions, present yourself strictly as a sex object, and in some cases act really dumb, that’s often acceptable. It’s only when you insist on being treated like a person that it becomes complicated.

Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  03:07 PM

Hmm, comment #71 by Dr. Psycho totally said what I did.  And did one better.

I think comment #33 by Miguel Bloomfontosis has some possible insight as to why aggressive guys don’t get penalized for this behavior and that comment #77 by Toitle misses his point. There’s no evidence that this stuff comes from more or less shy guys; and even if it did, it wouldn’t deny Miquel’s point - it would merely highlight their frustration and attempts to mimic what they see as successful patterns.  To falsify it you’d have to prove that poisoning the well, so to speak, doesn’t benefit more aggressive guys more than less aggressive guys.

Re: Comment #42: LaylaBug:  That was pretty much how George Carlin got around it, too, by pointing out that there’s someone attached to the sex, and therefore the irony in reality is not at all funny.  There’s lots of things we laugh at because we’ve removed the horrifying part or mitigated it to the side. 

Humor is somehow a natural defense to horrible conditions.  But at the same time, there’s no humor in being the butt of a joke that’s inserting itself to replace anything else you’ve said.  Joking to ignore someone is an asshole move.

Comment #104: Crissa  on  12/28  at  03:09 PM

@87, but Funky, you swore the joke already passed the political correctness test, by claiming it wasn’t sexist! You can’t have it both ways, I’m afraid. You switch back and forth between “it’s not sexist!” and “don’t censor sexism, which is funny!” pretty rapidly.

Comment #105: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  03:10 PM

One thing that should be understood, is that r/atheism is a default front-page subreddit now. That means that anything that gets enough upvotes will eventually go to the main front page (/all) as such it then gets sent off to a huge portion of the community (those that are not actively blocking it).

The big problem with Watson’s article is that it goes after r/atheism specifically when it’s closer to say that it’s a significant sexist portion of reddit’s userbase as a whole.

Comment #106: Karmakin  on  12/28  at  03:11 PM

R. Stanton, I hope you’re really not suggesting that my extensive experience with sexist male discomfort with women reading is a figment of my imagination.

Comment #107: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/28  at  03:12 PM

@89 Hockubs:

When I use the expression “poisoning the well” I mean “creating a culture of distrust and animosity between men and women.”  So by “the well” I mean the reservoir of trust and goodwill that people have toward each other, which is obviously poisoned by the sorts of behavior Amanda described in her post.

Comment #108: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  03:12 PM

Funkey Horns, if you wish to not be sexist then listening to people about sexism is important.  I am not saying that have to be concerned about being sexist.  I know I am, and since I do not wish to be sexist, when someone points out ways in which I have been or continue to be sexist I alter my harmful behavior. 

If you were to discover that you were behaving in a sexist manner, would you want to stop that behavior?

Comment #109: Fatman  on  12/28  at  03:13 PM

Err, Dr Psycho said it better, I meant.

Comment #110: Crissa  on  12/28  at  03:16 PM

Am I the only one who thought the “Males” panel in that cartoon should have a shirtless douchebro flashing a “gang” sign at the camera with his tongue sticking out?

Comment #111: Sour Kraut  on  12/28  at  03:18 PM

@Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte on 12/28 at 03:07 PM

Indeed. Maybe I’m letting my imagination run away with me. Happens sometimes when I comment at work.

Comment #112: atheist  on  12/28  at  03:19 PM

But your assertion that men bother women who read and demand to know what they are doing when women dare to “pay attention to our books instead of looking around for a man to serve” gave me pause.

It *should* give you pause when you learn that assholes do assholey things to people; however, the proper response to the pause is to think, “Oh, huh…really? Let me continue to listen and I might learn something.”

Comment #113: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  03:20 PM

Strangely enough, last time I took a train journey I discovered an activity that was even more of a douche-magnet than reading: marking science practical write-ups. Four trains on the journey, so four different blokes sat next to me, and EVERY ONE pestered me with questions and inane observations and sundry look-at-me-ing despite my repeated statements of “I’m sorry, can’t talk - I’m busy with this marking.”

So yes, I reckon Amanda is on to something - the more absorbed a woman is in something that’s not about them, the stronger some blokes’ urge to interrupt her. It’s a toddlerish sense of entitlement at best.

Comment #114: MissPrism  on  12/28  at  03:21 PM

I think comment #33 by Miguel Bloomfontosis has some possible insight as to why aggressive guys don’t get penalized for this behavior and that comment #77 by Toitle misses his her point. There’s no evidence that this stuff comes from more or less shy guys; and even if it did, it wouldn’t deny Miquel’s point - it would merely highlight their frustration and attempts to mimic what they see as successful patterns.  To falsify it you’d have to prove that poisoning the well, so to speak, doesn’t benefit more aggressive guys more than less aggressive guys.

The entire “poisoning the well” thing is conjecture based around anecdotes about some weird and nonsensical strategy that “aggressive” men allegedly pursue to shut “well-meaning shy guys” out of dating women.  There’s no evidence for it in the first place, just “what if Nice Guys are victims did we perhaps think of that?”

Though I guess every thread about feminism ever has to meet the requisite Nice Guy whine quota so maybe it’s a good thing we’re getting it out of the way.

Comment #115: Toitle  on  12/28  at  03:26 PM

Your broader point, I imagine, is that there are men who are shy, sexually unsuccessful introverts who spew just as much women hating bile as do more aggressive men.  Okay, so perhaps there are.  (They would not be anything like most of the shy guys I’ve known in my life, but then again I don’t generally befriend assholes.)  Yet it’s still quite possible for a shy asshole to try to poison the well for other men who are shy non-assholes, isn’t it?
Comment #96: Miguel Bloomfontosis on 12/28 at 02:57 PM

Perhaps you should defer judgment to women who end up talking with these shy guys.  Because those of us who have find out that a fair percentage of them are just as misogynist as the others. 

In fact they usually seem to be more assholish, because they haven’t spent much time with other humans so they have weird ass ideas about how people in general work and carry around a gigantic pile of resentment because the world doesn’t kiss their asses.

Your theory presupposes a plan.  Our only requires rage and stupidity.  I think I know where I would lay my bets.

Comment #116: oldfeminist  on  12/28  at  03:26 PM

I always love the whines that presume that women are just misunderstanding.

That’s not the problem. There’s no elaborate explanation for why these guys harass women into silence. It’s domination.

  We don’t mis understand. We understand all too well. We have to, otherwise we wouldn’t survive.

Comment #117: ginmar  on  12/28  at  03:34 PM

@Funky Sure, you’re a comedy writer! This is a gem: “But I’ve got to be honest - that’s a little sexist of you.” HA! Haha, haha!

But seriously, “the thesis statement of the joke is that women take and post more pictures of themselves than men”?? Show us your wits or GTFO.

Amanda, thanks for a great post. Am I the only one who thought of that scene in Beauty and the Beast where Gaston pesters Belle about reading and peers at her book upside down?

Comment #118: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  03:36 PM

Strangely enough, last time I took a train journey I discovered an activity that was even more of a douche-magnet than reading: marking science practical write-ups. Four trains on the journey, so four different blokes sat next to me, and EVERY ONE pestered me with questions and inane observations and sundry look-at-me-ing despite my repeated statements of “I’m sorry, can’t talk - I’m busy with this marking.”
Comment #114: MissPrism on 12/28 at 03:21 PM

I have recently started taking the bus to work a few days a week (they finally put in a route that works for me).  One male bus DRIVER went on and on about the only other passenger when that passenger got off the bus, and when that was exhausted, said something like “it’s a dangerous world out there.”  Really?  We were traversing the tourist part of my route at that point.  But he couldn’t stand having me on his bus not listening to him.

Apparently we only read, knit, check our email or play games when we’re waiting for a man to pay attention to us.  In fact we do those things SO LOUD so they will know we are lonely and bored and want our attention.  Even xkcd thinks this.  http://xkcd.com/642/

Comment #119: oldfeminist  on  12/28  at  03:38 PM

<blockquote>Am I the only one who thought of that scene in Beauty and the Beast where Gaston pesters Belle about reading and peers at her book upside down?<blockquote>

Nope. I have been trying to figure out how to work that into the thread—I figured R. Stanton Scott’s post was a good segue, but then I got distracted.

Comment #120: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  03:46 PM

damn blockquote tags.

Comment #121: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  03:47 PM

#115- Having a bunch of douches does, in fact, poison the well for everyone trying to just have a good time, male or female, and that’s what they’re trying to appeal to.  Nothing worse than a bar, office or party full of hyper-masculine morons.  The problem is that “having a good time” for Nice Guys includes the unrealistic expectation that women should overlook their creepiness because they’re Nice Guys.  Nice Guys are still creeps even in the absence of the dreaded Alpha Males.

Comment #122: Satanicpanic  on  12/28  at  03:52 PM

The entire “poisoning the well” thing is conjecture based around anecdotes about some weird and nonsensical strategy that “aggressive” men allegedly pursue to shut “well-meaning shy guys” out of dating women.  There’s no evidence for it in the first place, just “what if Nice Guys are victims did we perhaps think of that?”

Yeah, it’s a two-for-one deal… “Look at how guys who aren’t as Nice(tm) as me are assholes, and also how stupid so many women are to fall for it instead of appreciating my Niceness(tm)! O woe is me!”

Comment #123: ScottK  on  12/28  at  03:53 PM

“Gaston, you are positively primeval”
“Why thank you Belle!”

Talk about your examples of how NOT to talk to women…

Comment #124: Jayn Newell  on  12/28  at  03:54 PM

#108

I’m aware of what “poisoning the well” means. However…

A well is a damp, long hole, often filled with liquid in the Mother Earth. Reminds me of something… And poisoning sounds like cutting off the supply of “wells”.

I’m sure you were trying to provide a rationale for straight men to stop treating women thus, thinking maybe it would be easier for them to accept and consequently change their behavior, but your use of the patriarchy to combat the patriarchy doesn’t win me over. Trying to convince straight men to treat women well, because it will get them more “wells,” instead of because women are people, doesn’t really do anything or change anything. Women are still to be considered as inferior, sexual objects, who should only cater to men’s needs, without needs or thoughts themselves.

Unless you were just concerned about your own supply of “wells,” in which case, I worry you may be a Nice Guy.

The premise doesn’t even make sense. The aggressive men could “poison the well” for all men, maybe, but definitely specifically for aggressive men. Yet women are trained to suspect all men, cuz any man, aggressive or not, has the potential to do it. It’s not just aggressive men who drive women away. If I had a dollar each time some guy has sold me out, just to get more in favor with the cooler/more popular/richer/more powerful guy, I would be very rich. In fact, the guys lower on the hierarchy are generally the ones most likely to do this to me. But ymmv

Comment #125: hockubs  on  12/28  at  04:21 PM

  The people who try to dismiss criticism often invoke MST3K. The creators of MST3K might have intended the line about “its just a show” to be self-deprecating but many people take at face value. If those that dismiss critcism do so by invoking MST3K than I may certainly call it thE MST3K defense.

Comment #126: Lee  on  12/28  at  04:23 PM

“Gaston, you are positively primeval”
“Why thank you Belle!”

Talk about your examples of how NOT to talk to women…
Comment #124: Jayn Newell on 12/28 at 03:54 PM

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same thing. Now I’m laughing, and taking pix of myself with my Beauty and the Beast DVD. O WAIT SORRY THAT’S SHALLOW AND TRIVIAL AND VAIN LOL.

Re: WHY WON’T YOU GIVE NICE GUYS A CHAAAAAANCE

Because this is a date-ocracy, not a democracy. AndBecause it’s FINE for women to have standards, and we are NOT obligated to take time out of our busy schedules to give some asshole a chance to ‘impress’ us. You want to impress me? Respect my wishes when I tell you to leave me the fuck alone.

Comment #127: Chai_Latte  on  12/28  at  04:24 PM

R. Stanton Scott @ #102
“Did you intend to claim that males approach women who read solely to make sure the woman understands that she exists only for “cock-sucking and sandwich making?”

Males who are aware women have minds and other reasons for existence than being useful to men don’t approach and interrupt women whose focus on their book indicates they are ALREADY BUSY.

Comment #128: crowepps  on  12/28  at  04:30 PM

Political incorrectness upsets the statu quo, or at least it makes it cough uncomfortably.

Racist and sexist jokes reinforce the statu quo and its underlying unfairness. Making fun of something is a way to devoid it of importance. We laugh it off to avoid really thinking about it.

When you make rape jokes or laugh at unemployed mexicans, you are cooperating with the statu quo. You’re being the opposite of politically incorrect.

Comment #129: Baruk  on  12/28  at  04:32 PM

The people who try to dismiss criticism often invoke MST3K. The creators of MST3K might have intended the line about “its just a show” to be self-deprecating but many people take at face value. If those that dismiss critcism do so by invoking MST3K than I may certainly call it thE MST3K defense.

Since when?

“The just a show” line is used specifically in context of the absurd premise of the show; the absurd premise of sending a guy into orbit to force him to watch crappy movies with no apparent way to feed, clothe, and bathe him while he’s up there.

If you’re wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself “It’s just a show,
I should really just relax

It isn’t meant to “dismiss criticism”, it’s meant to deflect nitpicky scientific/technological complaints about an intentionally stupid show.

Comment #130: keshmeshi  on  12/28  at  04:42 PM

@125 hockubs:

I wasn’t trying to provide an inducement for good behavior when I mentioned that men who harass poison the well.  I don’t really think anyone should really need an inducement to behave decently.  Of course, as it happens, if harassment of women was extremely rare or nonexistent, it would probably be a lot easier for somewhat shy nice guys (I mean genuinely nice guys) to meet women.  And that would be a good thing, right?

Comment #131: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  04:44 PM

#131

“And that would be a good thing, right?”

Why would I care? Why is that at all important enough to bring up and derail a conversation just so we can worry about the plight of Genuinely Nice Guys meeting women?

Look, I’m sorry some shy, nice guys have trouble meeting women. Really. But now’s not the time.

Comment #132: hockubs  on  12/28  at  04:54 PM

PUB CROWD:  “Nooo…ooone…
                SNOGS like Gaston!
                No one HOGS like Gaston!
                No one trolls up on feminist BLOGS like Gaston!”

GASTON:  “Yes for everything I’ve got a MANsplanation!” (flexes biceps)

Comment #133: Sour Kraut  on  12/28  at  04:54 PM

Some of those commenters on the Reddit site seem to be one car ride away from an appearance on “To Catch a Predator” or as we call it, “Hey, Perverts!” 

If their behavior means girls or women should stop identifying as such on the internet, as opposed to meaning their disgusting behavior should be policed by others in their internet community, then something’s upside-down.  And no, before you get all het up, I’m not talking censorship.  I mean that they should be down-voted or called out as the pervs they are. 

Unless you genuinely believe the female brain to be inferior as a matter of fact, driving anyone identifying herself as female out of an internet community is plain dumb.  You’re depriving the community of 1/2 of its potential (probably more than that, given that the hostility to women also usually echoes into hostility against gay men and disgusts non-he-man-woman-haters so that they’ll also tend to vacate your space).  So if you want to dumb-down your internet community into an echo-chamber of pervs, have at it!  Or are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself, Dr. Letch.

Comment #134: blondie  on  12/28  at  05:00 PM

Am I the only one who thought the “Males” panel in that cartoon should have a shirtless douchebro flashing a “gang” sign at the camera with his tongue sticking out?
Comment #111: Sour Kraut on 12/28 at 03:18 PM

Close—my first thought was “What about all those dudes with pictures of themselves in front of their stupid cars?”

Comment #135: themmases  on  12/28  at  05:01 PM

Yes, Miguel Bloomfontosis, the primary social objective of harassment of women is to poison the well of relations between men and women. That much is self-evident. What we’re all wondering is why your first thought is for the poor (mythical) nice guys rather than, y’know, the women who are harassed.

Comment #136: Triplanetary  on  12/28  at  05:05 PM

I can’t get past the 15 yo girl part.  I am sorry I would like to read the whole post, but this happened to a 15 yo girl attempting to communicate an idea on the internet?  I feel like killing them.  Fucking animals.  Someone should kick their balls down the roof of their throats.

Comment #137: Daisy  on  12/28  at  05:06 PM

Of course, as it happens, if harassment of women was extremely rare or nonexistent, it would probably be a lot easier for somewhat shy nice guys (I mean genuinely nice guys) to meet women.  And that would be a good thing, right?

WTF am I reading.

Feminism is not for making women sexually available to men who feel cheated out of their fair share by the patriarchy.

Comment #138: Farron  on  12/28  at  05:08 PM

I thought I was the only one who thought it was funny.

Nah, all conservative humor is the same.

“Did you hear the one about the person who is not a straight, white man of means?  It turns out, they conform to an unpleasant stereotype!”

All conservatives care about is hierarchy, so of course their “jokes” are about punching down.

 

Comment #139: Punditus Maximus  on  12/28  at  05:10 PM

Also wanted to jump in and note that the comic doesn’t label its panels “men” and “women” but rather “males” and “females.”

I don’t know why, but that substitution is, like, a 100% accurate RED FLAG for sexism.  I wonder why that is?

Comment #140: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/28  at  05:10 PM

bleh, stepped away from the comp, awkward sentence construction above at #140.  You know what I meant…

Comment #141: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/28  at  05:13 PM

All attempts at humor that point out gender differences are, by definition, sexist.

No, all attempts at humor which include gender that Funky finds funny are by definition sexist, because Funky is, like most men in US culture, incapable of enjoying humor that involves gender which does not reinforce his preconceptions.  There is only one gender-related joke to Funky, and it is listed above.

I have no doubt that Funky is a comedy writer—there is a huge audience for that shit.  But it’s not funny.  It’s “conservative funny.”

 

Comment #142: Punditus Maximus  on  12/28  at  05:15 PM

Show us your wits or GTFO.

See, now that’s funny.

The people who try to dismiss criticism often invoke MST3K.

Those people are dumbasses. Next time just send them over my way and I’ll clear things up for them.

Comment #143: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  05:15 PM

oldfeminist@119

Even xkcd thinks this.  http://xkcd.com/642/

Seriously. In general, Randall Munroe is one of us (see for example, How It Works and Pix Plz) but that one you linked just stinks of Nice Guy™.

Comment #144: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  05:21 PM

Want to be a music nerd while female? Since the literal first step of walking in the door is emotionally fraught, even starting out and seeing if you like it is often a step that women aren’t going to take. Think you might be into reading comic books? Many women will never find out, because the obstacles of men gawking and acting like assholes outweigh the long-term rewards of finding some titles to get into. Want to get into an atheist forum online? Be prepared to told in many ways, over and over, that you’re not wanted as anything but a sucking-and-fucking machine.

Also—I loved this part of your post.  It took me years after we broke up to see that my music nerd boyfriend got a chunk of his cred from disparaging what I liked, particularly if I’d heard it first.  But was perfectly happy to rock out to one of my favorite albums over three years late, as long as he didn’t know I liked it.  To this day I don’t necessarily share my music taste with people because I’m so used to having it dismissed, either as derivative or something I must have learned about from my boyfriend or something the dude I’m talking to already heard of years ago and is so over now.

I also lived next door to Chicago Comics for nearly two years and had never been there alone before this month.  Even though it was right before xmas, most of the time I was the only woman there.  That’s a gross feeling even if everyone treats you normally—which, I want to point out, the awesome folks there did.

Comment #145: themmases  on  12/28  at  05:22 PM

#138 Farron

My thoughts exactly.

Comment #146: hockubs  on  12/28  at  05:23 PM

I think that *some* harassment of women is a result of intra-gender competition between men.  In other words, some men deliberately poison the well in order to sabotage other men’s efforts at meeting women.  For example, a woman who feels unwelcome and “on edge” while shopping for old records or vintage comics is going to have a defensive wall up and will be less receptive to some awkward but well-meaning shy guy who tries to start a conversation.  But a man who is more aggressive will just “plow through” a woman’s social defenses.  And so while more aggressive men tend to do the most “well poisoning”, it’s actually the less aggressive men who are hurt by it the most, which is probably one reason that aggressive men continue to harass women, because in a perverse way they benefit from it.

So you think aggressive men are going around insulting women because they are worried about shy guys stealing their ladies? That’s your theory?

Comment #147: Jon S  on  12/28  at  05:29 PM

#138:

Feminism is not for making women sexually available to men who feel cheated out of their fair share by the patriarchy.

Well, feminism serves a variety of purposes for a variety of people.  One might ask the question, “Why would I, a young rich white male heir to privilege, set aside dickishness and embrace gender equality and fair play?”

And the answer is, “Because you desire the affable companionship of women, and when you live in a system where ‘man demeans woman’ is the cultural standard, this may result in failed relationships with otherwise wonderful female friends because they preemptively hate you for your gender’s endless cascade of abuses perpetrated against them.”

Feminism - and generic equality, in general - is about creating an environment where more people can be happy.  That’s good for men and women, alike.  And, since people who feel safe, comfortable, and happy like to put out, it’s good news for someone even if he is taking orders exclusively from his penis.

Comment #148: Zifnab  on  12/28  at  05:34 PM

#147, Jon S:  Sure, because there’s no need to consider any potential or actual harm to the objects being harassed.  The only ones who matter are the less aggressive men, i.e., the Nice Guys.

Comment #149: blondie  on  12/28  at  05:36 PM

  Chai_Latte: I know that Gatson thought that Belle was complementing him but complicating people on insults and criticisms is a good way of confusing people when you want to do so. A person once refered to me as a snob and I confused her by thanking her for the compliment. It really works as a way to get people bewildered.

  Re Straight women, straight men, dating, and nice guys: I and a lot of other men that I know generally think that one date isn’t really enough to know if you want to really see somebody in most circumstances. First dates tend to be awkawrd, especially if its a blind date or something arranged over the internet and you really don’t know the person. First dates are usually drinking coffee and trying to find out that if the other party is pleseant enough to warrant meeting them again. After meeting somebody online in real life, I always send a message meeting them and asking for another date. Usually I get a reply that, saying that she had a nice time but didn’t feel chemistry, a spark, or whatever she wants to call it. Most of my male friends had similar experiences. This is the right of women, they do not have to say yes to a second date. What makes Nice Guys, Nice Guys is that they don’t accept the right of refusal. I think the entire notion of knowing you wouldn’t make a good couple with somebody after one hour talking with them over a cup of coffee stupid but I accept the right of refusal.* Nice Guys don’t. Thats why they are bastards.

  *Although one thing I do find really weird are people who go to events specifically promoted as single events for heterosexual people and then get annoyed when somebody of the opposite gender tries to chait them up. Thats the point of single events. If you go to even marketed as such than you really should expect that somebody is going to chait you up. Its like going to a BBQ festival and being annoyed at the lack of Thai food.

Comment #150: Lee  on  12/28  at  05:37 PM

Or you could embrace feminism because you want to be a decent human being.

Comment #151: blondie  on  12/28  at  05:37 PM

And the answer is, “Because you desire the affable companionship of women, and when you live in a system where ‘man demeans woman’ is the cultural standard, this may result in failed relationships with otherwise wonderful female friends because they preemptively hate you for your gender’s endless cascade of abuses perpetrated against them.”


I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Comment #152: Farron  on  12/28  at  05:40 PM

Feminism might do different things for different people, but its objective is achieving equality for women, full stop.  People keep trying to make feminism into some general, non-specific movement in a way they don’t try with any other social justice movement.

Comment #153: ginmar  on  12/28  at  05:47 PM

Re:  Comment #116: oldfeminist on 12/28 at 03:26 PM

Well, I disagree (A) with your assertions that you ‘speak to shy men’ first off, but I have no proof against it; but mostly because I (B) am a woman who speaks to many shy men at comic book stores.  I know no ‘most’ who are misogynist.  Even my years of working at a game store didn’t make me think ‘most’ are sexist.

So, yeah.  Disagree with you.  Who woulda thunk it?

Comment #154: Crissa  on  12/28  at  05:49 PM

#148

So using a sexist guy’s desire for sex and his view of women as sex objects to manipulate him into treating them better for those same self-serving reasons is a step forward? How does this change anything?

Anyway, I don’t think most of those insults and harassment Rebecca received had anything to do with competing for women. I think the men were just competing with each other and she was simply the vehicle for this. A vehicle they did not see as a human being.

Comment #155: hockubs  on  12/28  at  05:50 PM

Re: Comment #136: Triplanetary on 12/28 at 05:05 PM

He didn’t say that, either.  You added the word ‘primary’.

Comment #156: Crissa  on  12/28  at  05:56 PM

@132 hockubs:

Since this post is about men harassing women, I don’t think my comments as to *why* some men do that counts as a “derail.”  As to your “Why would I care?” remark, an aggressive sexual culture in which there is harassment of women also happens to be the same culture in which shy men tend to be marginalized.  It’s a different side of the same coin.  Men who are contemptuous of women tend to be contemptuous of other men, particularly men they see as insufficiently masculine. 

@131 Triplanetary:

Yes, Miguel Bloomfontosis, the primary social objective of harassment of women is to poison the well of relations between men and women.  That much is self-evident.  What we’re all wondering is why your first thought is for the poor (mythical) nice guys rather than, y’know, the women who are harassed.

My first thought actually *was* about the harassment described in the post.  But, the thing is, I don’t see the purpose of commenting if all I do is add a “THIS!” to what the author just said.  Yes, what happened to the 15 y.o. on redditt was not a good thing.  It was a bad thing.  I think that’s been established.  What I was trying to do in my original comment was to look at one of the reasons why some men behave poorly towards women.  The reasons vary, and since there is not one simple, pat answer, the reasons are worth exploring. 

 

 

Comment #157: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  05:59 PM

@156 Crissa

And immediately after I posted it I started wishing I’d written “one of the social objectives” instead.

Comment #158: Triplanetary  on  12/28  at  05:59 PM

That’s a lot of comments, cba to read them before I comment on the post itself.

The reason people (mostly a certain type of Dude On the Internet) think this is because they don’t notice when a pic of a random object with no face in it is taken by a woman, just like no one notices when women post messages that have nothing to do with the fact they’re women on anonymous boards. It’s the problem with assuming that males are the default. If you don’t scream “I HAVE TITS” in every message you post or picture you take, people will just assume you’re a dude. So when it’s germane to show a pic of yourself or talk about gender/sexuality or whatever, that’s the only time you’re actually perceived as a woman. So every time someone realizes a woman has done something, it’s associated with showing your face or talking about sex, and thus your cognitive bias of “women are attention whores and are only interested in relationships” is confirmed.

I’ve seen it a thousand times, whenever I post something funny on the internet, it’s “DOHOHO GOOD ONE BRO”. But when someone makes a thread about something sexuality related, it’s practically required to go into detail if you want to participate, and then it’s “OH YOU JUST HAD TO MENTION YOU’RE A WOMAN, NO ONE CARES WHORE.”

I suspect it’s the same reason that some men have trouble finding women funny. You could tell the same joke as a dude with the same intonation and timing and still get a blank stare, if you try it on someone who thinks women are aliens. It’s as if their toaster has suddenly presented them with a latte. “But this is for penis, only dudes are for jokes and wit”... they’re too confused by the fact you don’t have a 5 o’clock shadow to notice it’s the same fucking gag. With the anonymity of the net, there’s no visual confusion there, so of course you’re assumed to be a dude.

Comment #159: Treefinger  on  12/28  at  06:02 PM

“Also, I love that Funky thinks there’s a gene that makes women put themselves in pictures. Where on the genome would you guess that is, Funky? How did we evolve that, when really cameras have only been in use for a couple hundred years, and digital cameras for about 20?”

Amanda, come on.  Our hardwiring (and yes, humans have some hard wired behavior, even leaving gender out of it) leads us to interact with new experiences and technologies in certain ways. 

Here’s an example:  a fear of heights is hard wired into many of us as a survival instinct - if you fall, you die.  So if I’m afraid of flying, is it impossible that it’s hard wired behavior, because planes have only been around for a hundred years or so?

So yes, the way people interact with cameras can be due to instincts that predate the invention of the camera.

You’re smarter than arguments like that.

“If you were to discover that you were behaving in a sexist manner, would you want to stop that behavior?”

Absolutely.  And those comments to that girl were horrible.  The comic wasn’t, and it was the major portion of Amanda’s post, and the part I was replying to.

I will say this:  I wouldn’t go to the technology section on 4chan and then be shocked when people were racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever.  That fifteen year old was posting on reddit, fer christ’s sake.  She’d been reading the board.  She knew the crowd.  It doesn’t excuse their behavior, but you can’t be shocked about wading into a snake pit and getting bitten by a snake.  I’m sure there are moderated boards for atheists where people post under their own names that would be a great place for her.  Hopefully she finds one.

Your test - preview your humor on the people you’re joking about, and see if they think it’s funny - is ridiculous on its face.  Maybe Jon Stewart should get a group of Republicans, test his jokes about Gingrich on them, and not use them if they’re offended.

It’s not how humor works.  Granted, I’m not a “humorist,” but I’m pretty sure I’m right about this.

Comment #160: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  06:02 PM

Re Straight women, straight men, dating, and nice guys: I and a lot of other men that I know generally think that one date isn’t really enough to know if you want to really see somebody in most circumstances. First dates tend to be awkawrd, especially if its a blind date or something arranged over the internet and you really don’t know the person. First dates are usually drinking coffee and trying to find out that if the other party is pleseant enough to warrant meeting them again. After meeting somebody online in real life, I always send a message meeting them and asking for another date. Usually I get a reply that, saying that she had a nice time but didn’t feel chemistry, a spark, or whatever she wants to call it. Most of my male friends had similar experiences. This is the right of women, they do not have to say yes to a second date. What makes Nice Guys, Nice Guys is that they don’t accept the right of refusal. I think the entire notion of knowing you wouldn’t make a good couple with somebody after one hour talking with them over a cup of coffee stupid but I accept the right of refusal.* Nice Guys don’t. Thats why they are bastards.

Maybe you are just bad at first dates.  I’m serious. I used to get this a lot when I first became single after my college/grad school relationship was over. Truth is, I was awkward on dates and would do dumb chemistry killing things. Nowadays I almost always get a second date if I ask for it.

Comment #161: Jon S  on  12/28  at  06:06 PM

Again, I have no idea how we get from gendered behavior in one culture to genetics.  You have to be sexist as shit—just hate the hell out of women—for that to be important to you.

Comment #162: Punditus Maximus  on  12/28  at  06:06 PM

#157

“Since this post is about men harassing women, I don’t think my comments as to *why* some men do that counts as a ‘derail.’”

No, that’s not what I wrote. That shy guys get to meet women and I should think this is a good thing is a derail. What I think about that doesn’t matter. Shy guys meeting women is not a feminist concern and not my concern. Your theory that women suffer harassment due to men fighting over women’s sexual availability was not a derail. Does that clarify?

As I’ve already suitably answered what I think about that theory, I’ll just move on.

Comment #163: hockubs  on  12/28  at  06:08 PM

I read a lot, and I read in public a lot—buses, trains, planes, coffee shops, whatever.  When someone interrupts me to ask “what are you reading?” or to be like, “Oh, I love that book!” it is ALWAYS a dude.

Seriously.  If I wanted to be social, I’d have a hobby that involved being social, you know?  I don’t really mind if people talk to me when I’m (for example) fixing my coffee, or if they see my book before I open it or sit down or whatever, but seriously, when I’m reading, get the fuck out of my face.

Comment #164: laurab  on  12/28  at  06:09 PM

an aggressive sexual culture in which there is harassment of women also happens to be the same culture in which shy men tend to be marginalized.  It’s a different side of the same coin.  Men who are contemptuous of women tend to be contemptuous of other men, particularly men they see as insufficiently masculine.

What is an “aggressive sexual culture?”  Is your issue men who harass women, or men who talk to women? Aren’t shy guys as marginalized by assertive but respectful men?

Also, to be totally cynical, I don’t think an environment where some men are outrageously disrespectful towards women actually hurts the dating process of legitimately respectful guys. Guys who treat women as human beings benefit from a lowered bar. I mean, I do feel like I am getting away with something when women go out of their way to compliment me on asking them how they feel about things. This should really not be a distinguishing characteristic.

Comment #165: Jon S  on  12/28  at  06:14 PM

@Comment #159: Treefinger on 12/28 at 06:02 PM

It’s the problem with assuming that males are the default. If you don’t scream “I HAVE TITS” in every message you post or picture you take, people will just assume you’re a dude. ...

I’ve seen it a thousand times, whenever I post something funny on the internet, it’s “DOHOHO GOOD ONE BRO”. But when someone makes a thread about something sexuality related, it’s practically required to go into detail if you want to participate, and then it’s “OH YOU JUST HAD TO MENTION YOU’RE A WOMAN, NO ONE CARES WHORE.”

I will occasionally experience an amusing variation of this when I defend women’s rights in some way, and people assume I’m a woman.

Comment #166: atheist  on  12/28  at  06:18 PM

@164 “[W]hen I’m reading, get the fuck out of my face.” 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvs2g5Nj0NI

Comment #167: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  06:19 PM

@159

“If you don’t scream “I HAVE TITS” in every message you post or picture you take, people will just assume you’re a dude.”

I agree with the entirety of your post, but I’d add that if you’re female and that fact is known, through your screen-name or otherwise, literally anything you say is the same as screaming, “I HAVE TITS!” As someone mentioned wayyy upthread, being a woman is controversial. Just something I’d add, as your comment made me shout, “yes!”

@Miguel

Sure, wanting more pussy is a valid reason to subscribe to Feminism. In high school our chemistry teacher baked homemade bread for her class and often had leftovers. So, solely because of the free homemade bread, I felt some enthusiasm toward the chemistry department. Yet somehow I know that that an incidental enjoyment of bread does not mean I should inject myself into discussions of protein folding. Likewise some men may benefit from an increased amount of pussy due to Feminism. As a Feminist, I may think, “well that’s nice,” in passing and yet I do not give a flying fuck.

The exact moment when I had a problem with your comment was when you said the people that sexual harassment of women harms most is shy men. Specifically, you used “people,” to mean, “men.” I noticed you said just up-thread that you DO in fact value the experiences of women as such, but your dismissal and lack of awareness has really rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not saying you’re evil because of it; I just think you ought to know.

Comment #168: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  06:21 PM

You’re smarter than arguments like that.

What an absolute classic. The pat on the head, the disingenuous proclamation of faith in your intelligence—so mysteriously not in evidence just now! It was almost a good argument—but Funky is going to continue to assert the truth of a hypothesis for which there is no evidence. Because it’s so female to require evidence before departing from the null hypothesis. Or something.

Mansplaining at its finest. Not terribly subtle, but charming in its vintage simplicity. I give it an 9. One point off for the awkward grammar. How smart are arguments exactly? 

 

Comment #169: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  06:21 PM

It doesn’t excuse their behavior, but you can’t be shocked about wading into a bar and getting raped</i>.  I’m sure there are <b>nunneries for bitches where people enforce strict codes of behavior that would be a great place for her.  Hopefully she finds one.

This is what you actually sound like btw. Like a sexist ass. Which I’ll note you seem, despite your protestations otherwise, entirely uninterested in changing.

Comment #170: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  06:26 PM

mothergoddamn tags again. no more posting without coffee, I promise.

Comment #171: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  06:27 PM

” I wouldn’t go to the technology section on 4chan and then be shocked when people were racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever.  That fifteen year old was posting on reddit, fer christ’s sake.  She’d been reading the board.  She knew the crowd.”

Ok, funky. This is the whole point of the post. The sexual harassment climate makes women avoid certain places like the plague, which is unfair because women are not allowed to hone interests etc. Amanda’s article is about how it is important to fight back to open up these places for women. You seem to be implying that women should just be de facto excluded from these places and are basically saying that the 15 year old should know her place. Do you even realize how extremely sexist that is? That you are coming to a blog, on purpose, where people are discussing how something has a real impact on what they do and don’t do, and then you are repeatedly telling everyone tehy are silly for worrying about such things when YOU do not have to worry about the negative consequences. You are sort of like the definition of a douche bag.

Comment #172: alysia  on  12/28  at  06:31 PM

“This is what you actually sound like btw. Like a sexist ass. Which I’ll note you seem, despite your protestations otherwise, entirely uninterested in changing.”

Yes.  All places on earth should be equally safe and welcoming for all.  If they aren’t, we should change them through… legislation?  Education?  And if I recognize that some places aren’t safe environments, then I am excusing the behavior that goes on there.

Perfectly logical.

Comment #173: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  06:34 PM

“Fatman: Yes, let’s peer review jokes for political correctness. Great idea.”

Jokes are already peer-reviewed for being “PC” and funny. You know, when they get told, and the reaction is largely negative, or the positive reaction only comes from people whose opinion is disregarded for a very good reason (see: the people who liked “Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen” or “Sex and the City 2” or “The Smurfs Movie”).

That’s the way you’re coming across, by the way. As someone who defends Larry the Cable Guy even though they don’t watch it themselves, for some jerk-off devil’s advocate reason or another.

Comment #174: Treefinger  on  12/28  at  06:35 PM

Yes.  All places on earth should be equally safe and welcoming for all.

That is the only remotely intelligent or true thing you have said in 174 comments. And you didn’t mean it.

Stick rule!

Comment #175: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  06:36 PM

This is just so gross. The fact that men would do this to any woman is horrible, but that they’d do it to a 15-year-old child is unconscionable. And that they’re supposedly enlightened skeptical folks just makes it so much worse. Not that I expect any better—racism and misogyny are rampant in atheist circles, which is why I avoid atheist circles even though I’m an atheist.

It’s sad that the exceptions to the “woman enters traditionally male space” make me so happy, because they are so often exceptions. Out of all of the comic shops in town, there’s one small one in particular that I frequent because one of the three people who work there is female, and the two guys are also awesome and friendly, and there’s never any sort of neckbeard vibe when I go in. (Also, all three of the employees really know their comics and give great recommendations.) But I was passing by another comic shop last night, with an all-male staff, and I can’t resist a Boxing Day sale even if I might encounter some casual sexism. To my extreme joy, the dude working there was super nice, didn’t give me looks, didn’t try to recommend something stereotypically girly, and essentially treated me like any other paying customer. I shouldn’t have been so surprised, but given some comic store experiences I’ve had in the past, I kind of was.

Comment #176: sabotabby  on  12/28  at  06:38 PM

At first blush, geeks acting like a bunch of misogynists whenever a woman takes an interest in geeky things seems counterproductive. I mean, wouldn’t you WANT an environment with women around who share your interests? I wonder what it says about a person’s relationship towards sex and gender that this logic isn’t completely compelling.

Comment #177: Jon S  on  12/28  at  06:38 PM

@173 “Yes.  All places on earth should be equally safe and welcoming for all.” Sarcasm noted. Here’s some more: all these places just *happen* to be safe for youngish white guys. And they just so *happen* to be about literally everything on Earth except makeup and how get your toilet bowl sparkling clean. You know, everything fun or fulfilling or interesting. So WHY ON EARTH would people like Amanda want to step outside those boundaries? How silly!

Comment #178: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  06:41 PM

I mean really…a safe and equal and prospering world is kind of the idea, right? For people who aren’t total shitbags, anyway. What is the compelling, essential, totally-not-sexist-at-all reason for dangerous dens of misogyny and hatred again?

Comment #179: Well, what?  on  12/28  at  06:42 PM

Jokes are already peer-reviewed for being “PC” and funny. You know, when they get told, and the reaction is largely negative, or the positive reaction only comes from people whose opinion is disregarded for a very good reason (see: the people who liked “Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen” or “Sex and the City 2” or “The Smurfs Movie”).

Pains me to say it, but it’s people who didn’t like those movies whose opinions are disregarded.

Comment #180: Jon S  on  12/28  at  06:42 PM

Funky said ” the way people interact with cameras *can* be due to instincts that predate the invention of the camera.”  emphasis mine

Ah, but we aren’t talking about a general purpose claim about how “people interact” with cameras.  We are talking about a specific claim that says men and women interact with cameras *differently* (and specifically that women use them *wrong* for all intents and purposes), which you argue has an essential genetic cause.  THAT is the claim we are mocking.

Which instincts are causing the supposedly different uses of the camera by men and women (which we established up thread are not actually behaviors unique to men and women anyway but whatever)?

I cannot even imagine an explanation of how lady instincts differ from male instincts re: camera usage that is not breathtakingly sexist on its face but maybe you will surprise me (I doubt it).

Comment #181: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/28  at  06:46 PM

I mean, wouldn’t you WANT an environment with women around who share your interests? I wonder what it says about a person’s relationship towards sex and gender that this logic isn’t completely compelling.

It says that they’re not interested in respecting a woman for her interests, knowledge, or views. If she’s not there to show off her boobs or make them a sandwich, they don’t need her around.

Comment #182: Triplanetary  on  12/28  at  06:47 PM

I mean, for people like us, “having interests in common” seems like a good way to become friends and/or romantic partners with a woman, but misogynist dudes tend to assume that women don’t have worthwhile interests and that they thus have to settle for some woman who watches Twilight movies. And then they’ll moan about how women are always dragging their partners to Twilight movies as if there aren’t any women anywhere who have better taste in movies. And they moan about women not being into the cool things when they’ve been actively driving women away from said cool things with their “tits, sammich, or GTFO” attitude, thus bringing the vicious cycle full circle.

Comment #183: Triplanetary  on  12/28  at  06:53 PM

Amanda:

Want to get into an atheist forum online? Be prepared to told in many ways, over and over, that you’re not wanted as anything but a sucking-and-fucking machine.

Miguel:

Of course, as it happens, if harassment of women was extremely rare or nonexistent, it would probably be a lot easier for somewhat shy nice guys (I mean genuinely nice guys) to meet women.  And that would be a good thing, right?

Comment #184: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  06:57 PM

@168 MoseyMcShuffleson:

The exact moment when I had a problem with your comment was when you said the people that sexual harassment of women harms most is shy men.

I didn’t say that and don’t believe that.  Your interpretive reading of my comments is incorrect.

Comment #185: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  12/28  at  07:00 PM

I actually thought the meaning of the cartoon a bit different than most of the commenters here.  The essential point is the same, but I saw the important part not that women take more pictures of themselves, but that they OBSCURE THE OBJECT when doing so.  In other words, they are such attention whores that they pretend to be interested in the object, but can’t even take a proper picture of it when it is the subject of discussion without blocking the view.

It leads to the same place, but I thought that was even worse than just “they take pictures of themselves”.

Comment #186: LC  on  12/28  at  07:03 PM

@181 “I cannot even imagine an explanation of how lady instincts differ from male instincts re: camera usage that is not breathtakingly sexist on its face but maybe you will surprise me (I doubt it).” I know what you mean but also I was reminded of this:

In a college photography class critique a girl showed her self-portraits, which were sensual but not pornographic close-ups of her face and mega-hair being pretty, thoughtful and vulnerable in sepia tones. She was praised for using “the tools she had” that she “might as well use,” to “create an arresting image” and encouraged to create more such photos.

A boy then showed some photos of “gritty,” “real” areas of our local big city that were shot (alone) at 3am, often looking upward and directly outward, described as exciting nightscapes that undermined our assumptions of “normalcy.”

I (a girl) showed shots of the street that made abstract compositions from things one would see while looking down. At the time I’d just moved from a farm to a big city and was learning to walk meekly with my eyes downcast to avoid a constant barrage of harassment, which is probably why I shot what I did, though it didn’t occur to me at the time. During the shoot I kept to myself and shot inanimate objects yet was approached no less than five times by strange men and told that I should be careful with my camera because it was expensive, that I should be the model not the photographer (patently untrue), that I should stop what I was doing to suck some cock.

If I’d become a photographer I’d probably have switched to taking thoughtful pictures of myself in private like the other girl in the critique. During the boy’s critique I felt an indescribable pang of jealousy and, I’m not kidding, that’s what made me switch majors. I still wouldn’t say women put themselves in pictures more, though, as my first instinct was to take cityscapes.

Comment #187: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  07:06 PM

Wow.
No one should look at my facebook then.
Because the stuffed sheep I carried all over Scotland was all about me posing with it.

Comment #188: cynickal  on  12/28  at  07:10 PM

@Jon S:

1-Because there is a subculture of social reward for trolling the other in Geek circles and women are the constant Other.

2-Because in Geek culture is just as aggressive and competitive as any other male-dominated activity. But whereas sports can always fall back on the exclusion of females from the field to sooth male egos, geek stuff tends to be more of a meritocracy. Status is based on what you know, what you own, and what skills you have which is equally accessible to women as it is to men. There is a mindset that inviting women into geek-spaces isn’t about nurturing potential friends and partners through a shared love, but bringing in a whole new set of competition.

3-Because women ruin everything! They aren’t as smart, and when they are they don’t always agree with me. They start getting interested in crap I don’t like which means the shop is catering to their wants not mine, which means film, comic, and game producers could do the same.

Comment #189: scrumby  on  12/28  at  07:11 PM

@185 Fair enough. The good news is, all you need to do is edit things like, “And so while more aggressive men tend to do the most “well poisoning”, it’s actually the less aggressive men who are hurt by it the most, which is probably one reason that aggressive men continue to harass women, because in a perverse way they benefit from it,” and we won’t have misunderstandings.

Comment #190: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  07:13 PM

@LC: Yes, the point of the cartoon is that women are so vain that they can’t take a picture of anything without blocking the view of the object the with their attention whore faces and trying to get people to comment on how pretty they are.  Which is why it was used as an excuse for the commenters to make rape jokes involving using tears as a lubricant, because she was asking for comments like that by putting her picture up there.  Chicks!  Always fishing for rape jokes!  It’s genetic.

Comment #191: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  07:16 PM

@191 Yeah, the joke had NOTHING to do with sexism. It’s just that the “stuff a cock in it” sexist onslaught *happened* to remind the commenter of that joke which is in no way sexist. (sure…)

Comment #192: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  07:21 PM

@nimravid ahem, my tone was unclear; I was agreeing, not picking on you.

Comment #193: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  07:23 PM

Miguel:

I do agree that “Men who are contemptuous of women tend to be contemptuous of other men, particularly men they see as insufficiently masculine. “

If you’re trying to say the patriarchy hurts everyone, that I understand. As a teacher, the number of times I have to intervene to call out sexism because some boy or girl decides a boy isn’t acting sufficiently “masculine” is equal or greater to when they decide a girl isn’t acting sufficiently “feminine.” However, it usually isn’t the lead boy or girl who says something sexist, but someone in the middle trying to climb the ladder socially. The ones on the lowest or highest rungs are either too scared or too indifferent to bother (again ymmv). Perhaps aggressive means social climber? I’m not certain what you mean by aggressive, I guess.

Comment #194: hockubs  on  12/28  at  07:34 PM

@Jon. S: eh, to an extent (but more disregarded by the people funding them who see the big box office profits than any critical community). But at least, those movies are largely unpopular with the 4chan/Reddit set and a lot of the internet nerd community; Transformers is seen as mauling these people’s childhoods, while the others are just bad. So within that context I thought they were safe choices to make a point with.

FHorns: “I wouldn’t go to the technology section on 4chan and then be shocked when people were racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever.  That fifteen year old was posting on reddit, fer christ’s sake.  She’d been reading the board.  She knew the crowd.”

Well, aside from the fact that Reddit typically isn’t on the scale of 4chan casual racism (et al), I see your point, but it’s still pretty victim-blamey. I wouldn’t be shocked if I went out for NYE and got my ass grabbed a couple of times, but I’d be a little gloomy all the same. I’m still going to go out in the same place, because I live here and my friends are going there. Same with this girl, r/atheist obviously appealed to her as the most appropriate place to hang out and post. People often underestimate their ability to cope with potential bad consequences of doing something (this girl says internetian things like “dat feel”* and “bracing my anus”, you can see her attempting to take it in her stride/build a rapport with the commenters before it gets to be too much), but they do it anyway, because life involves taking risks and putting yourself out there. I’m guessing she anticipated a few comments of that sort, but believed that most people wouldn’t focus on it. Unfortunately, she was proved wrong.

The point this post is making is not only that the consequences of doing that as a woman are worse. It’s also that if we keep saying that the solution is merely “well, you should know better than to put yourself out there” to girls and women, when they stop doing it but start to complain that their lives are unfulfilled, your response will merely be “well, nothing’s keeping you from life’s rich pageant”. It’s circular reasoning and offers nothing that helps. There is literally nothing a woman (or any other disadvantaged class of your choice) can do, short of going to/founding a society with different values, that won’t lead to them being either a miserable hermit or putting up with a disproportionate amount of flack for going about a normal life. Without a minimal amount of effort from dudes (whites/straights/etc.) to cut that shit out, it’s not going to stop, and we’re not going to stop complaining about it.


*I guess the guy who was like “how can we take someone seriously who uses this phrase??” is unaware that it originates from a website dominated by the same 20-something guys who were making most of the comments she objected to.

Comment #195: Treefinger  on  12/28  at  08:01 PM

So, she was “bracin’ mah anus” from the get-go…

Comment #196: DPirate  on  12/28  at  08:17 PM

The point this post is making is not only that the consequences of doing that as a woman are worse. It’s also that if we keep saying that the solution is merely “well, you should know better than to put yourself out there” to girls and women, when they stop doing it but start to complain that their lives are unfulfilled, your response will merely be “well, nothing’s keeping you from life’s rich pageant”. It’s circular reasoning and offers nothing that helps. There is literally nothing a woman (or any other disadvantaged class of your choice) can do, short of going to/founding a society with different values, that won’t lead to them being either a miserable hermit or putting up with a disproportionate amount of flack for going about a normal life.

Treefinger, you’ve pretty much described Camille Paglia’s entire thesis there.  “Men are driven to rape you and if you don’t like it stay home and paint your nails you silly cow!”

Comment #197: DonnaDiva  on  12/28  at  08:17 PM

@Treefinger

Where does “dat feel” and “bracin mah anus” come from?  I did think it was odd that she was saying that, since the rest of her posts were grammatically correct and articulate. Kind of besides the point but I’m curious

Comment #198: Jon S  on  12/28  at  08:21 PM

So yes, the way people interact with cameras can be due to instincts that predate the invention of the camera.

Here is why you are wrong:
Women, as a rule, have the same genes as men. the distinguishing characteristic is the X and Y Chromosome, Women have two X chromosomes, men have an X and a Y.
Most of the observed genetic behaviors among humans are universal: Primate-Cute response, for example. Men like babies too. they’re cute. Men are just socialized not to coo over them in public too much, but biochemistry doesn’t lie. It’s the same reason puppies and kitties are so very beloved.
In order for there to be a distinct gendered genetic behavior distinction, it would likely need to be linked to the presence of a Y chromosome, because anything on the X chromosome is going to be present in both genders.
It takes more than a Just So Story about how this might be an “evolutionary benefit” to exhibit a behavior for it to actually be genetic.

Anyway, that’s why you’re wrong from the science. But then there’s the rhetorical point of how you’re using Genetic like it’s magic. Believe it or not, Social ingrained behavior is just as ubiquitous, and in many cases just as hard to change. insisting on blaming genes, as if genes are invioable and we should follow behavior as we are genetically inclined is kind of Hacky. Like “You wrote the clean up script translation for Metal Gear Solid 4” hacky. Everything with you is SUPER GENES AND NANOMACHINES. Sure, why not. Shitty plot is shit. Welcome to jokes from 2008.

but yeah, the long and the short of this is simple:

>citing “genes” for anything
>2011
>ISHYGDDT

Comment #199: karpad  on  12/28  at  08:33 PM

Funky Winkerbean dropped the PC bomb. He’s lost the argument badly.

Comment #200: kaje  on  12/28  at  08:47 PM

One of the many ironies here is that the same fucken dickebagges that whine endlessly that they can’t get laid because damn bitchez are hanging out with other d00ds and not them, even though they are so nice and those other d00ds are not, are the exact reason why women are hanging out elsewhere.

Comment #201: PhysioProf  on  12/28  at  09:00 PM

#139 Punditus Maximus- “Did you hear the one about the person who is not a straight, white man of means?  It turns out, they conform to an unpleasant stereotype!”

I have thus been inspired. Here’s some straight white guy jokes.

Straight White Guy Jokes

Q: What’s the difference between a normal white guy and white trash?
A: Who cares, they all fucking look alike.

Q: What do you call it when a white guy gets a tax hike?
A: The Holocaust.

Q: Did you hear about the white guy who shot up a gym and killed a bunch of women?
A: No one would date a nice guy like him.

Q: What do you call a white guy who never ventures outside his worldview, parrots stuff you hear every day, and squishes challenges to the status quo?
A: “Edgy”.

Q: What’s the difference between Mary Shelly and an MRA?
A: Mary Shelly mattered.

Q: What do you call it when a white guy loses a video game?
A: “Rape”.

Q: How do you take a white guy’s freedom of speech away?
A: Disagree with him.

Q: What do you call it when there’s six white guys, a black guy, a Latina and a white woman in a room?
A: Political correctness gone wild.

Q: What if it’s eight white guys and just a black guy?
A: Tokenism gone wild.
———————-
If you are offended by these, keep in mind that it’s all just joking, you humorless misogynazis.

Comment #202: kaje  on  12/28  at  09:16 PM

I can think of nothing more terrifying than a world where I felt comfortable listening to the speech of everyone I encountered everywhere.  I really can’t.  That people are holding that up as a goal…  Think about what you’re saying.

(I’ll ignore the irony that for most of human history, there was no more unwelcoming and unsafe speech than discussions of atheism.)

And just to be clear, we are talking about speech - I know that a common debate tactic is to jump from guys talking about rape to guys raping women, but there’s a bit of a difference.  (Hint:  one is legally protected in our wonderful country.)

As for genes - Amanda’s point was that it was silly to think that there could be instincts that would influence how one would interact with a new technology.  Since everyone now realizes that statement makes no sense, the goalposts have been moved and now I have to explain exactly how it works vis a vis women and cameras. 

Sorry, no can do - I was clear from the beginning that I wasn’t trying to figure out which gender differences are socialized and which are genetic, only that differences exist and those differences aren’t outside the purview of humor.

Is that comic the funniest one ever?  No.  But it’s amusing, and there are evolved women with senses of humor about themselves that would get it.

Comment #203: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  09:19 PM

Before the firestorm:  I’m not saying that anyone who doesn’t think it’s funny isn’t evolved.  Just that an intelligent, liberated woman would be able to laugh at it.

Comment #204: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  09:25 PM

Just wanted to say thanks for the link to Dr. Nerdlove; good stuff.  Some recurring flaws, but like good blogs, he has commenters willing to point them out.

OK, continue banging your heads against the wall…

Comment #205: NY Expat  on  12/28  at  09:25 PM

hahahaha yes, the problem here is that there aren’t evolved women with senses of humor.  Oh boy.  dude, it’s a long way to China, stop digging!

Comment #206: Satanicpanic  on  12/28  at  09:26 PM

What is an “aggressive sexual culture?”  Is your issue men who harass women, or men who talk to women? Aren’t shy guys as marginalized by assertive but respectful men?

Our issue is men who interrupt women, men who demand women’s attention, men who can’t be bothered to not annoy the women to whom they’re talking.

If I’m reading, some guy deciding that my attention belongs on him instead of the book and interrupting me to hit on me or ask inane questions, is NOT just talking to me. If I keep turning my attention back to the book, or saying “excuse me,” or otherwise indicating the conversation is not my cup of tea, him continuing to yap at me is NOT just talking to me.

If I can’t read my fucking book in peace without having to divert my attention toward repeated requests to be left alone, then I am being harassed.

Not to criminalize talking to someone, but at the very least it ought to be a mutually consensual exchange.

Comment #207: Kyra  on  12/28  at  09:28 PM

Funky horns, free speech also includes the unlimited right to call people ass holes when they say things ass holes say. Somewhere up the thread someone asked how to fight back and the suggestions were things like downvoting and calling out people who’s behavior is disgusting. None of these constitute anything close to an impingement on the rights to free speech. This is especially rich given that you have spent a whole day on this blog telling the poster and commenters to shut the fuck up like evolved little ladies (humorist that you are, you may see some irony here). And while you are quite obviously a giant gaping asshole, you have not violated any fundamental human rights here.

Comment #208: alysia  on  12/28  at  09:34 PM

“This is especially rich given that you have spent a whole day on this blog telling the poster and commenters to shut the fuck up like evolved little ladies”

Me:  I disagree.
What you hear:  Shut the fuck up!

I think I may have discovered the root problem here.

Comment #209: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  09:38 PM

I wonder if Funky CancerCancer is evolved enough to laugh at my white guy jokes. Especially the first! It’s funny because it’s dehumanizing.

Comment #210: kaje  on  12/28  at  09:38 PM

Hold up, karpad, actually there are very few genes on the Y chromosome.  In humans anyway.  Almost everything sex linked is on the X chromosome: 2 or more X chromosomes gives you a “backup” copy if there’s a mutation in one of the X chromosomes.  If you have one copy of the X chromosome, there’s no backup and recessive mutations show up.  Hemophilia, color blindness, male pattern baldness, etc., are rarer in anyone with more than 1 X chromosome, since that would require multiple copies of the same mutation.

Comment #211: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  09:41 PM

So what was that whole little bit about “she shouldn’t have gone on reddit blah blah blah” if not a call to shut the fuck up about harassment? And your comments about not wanting a world with out offensive jokes? This post was about verbally replying to verbal harassment, and disagreeing that there should be a verbal reply to such harassment seems to be awfully similar to saying that you should not voice complaints which is awfully similar to shutting up.

Comment #212: alysia  on  12/28  at  09:44 PM

Threatening to rape someone is not legally protected in my country (United States.)  I don’t know what country you’re from that you’re calling “our” wonderful country, but it sounds horrible.

Comment #213: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  09:55 PM

“So what was that whole little bit about “she shouldn’t have gone on reddit blah blah blah” if not a call to shut the fuck up about harassment? And your comments about not wanting a world with out offensive jokes? This post was about verbally replying to verbal harassment, and disagreeing that there should be a verbal reply to such harassment seems to be awfully similar to saying that you should not voice complaints which is awfully similar to shutting up.”

I disagreed with Amanda’s lengthy analysis of the comic.  I wasn’t telling her she didn’t have the right to make it.  I haven’t called one person a name or told them to shut up.  That behavior has been reserved for your side of the debate, apparently.

And I didn’t say the fifteen year old shouldn’t have gone onto reddit.  I said, very clearly, that she shouldn’t have been shocked about the response she got.  I mean, look how it started - she posted the picture.  Someone said “brace yourself, the compliments are coming.”  Hardly a sexist attack.  Her response?  “bracin’ mah anus.” 

I’ll translate for you:  I know I’m about to get fucked in the ass.

So this fifteen year old girl knew what was coming, made a joke about people having anal sex with her (good for her!) and then…  oh no!  People talked about sex with a fifteen year old girl!  What is wrong with MEN?

Good god.  Seriously?

Comment #214: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  10:00 PM

@213 alysia - exactly. In the 15-year-old’s post countless douchebags were exercising their rights to free speech in order to intimidate a child because she appeared in public and spoke. The point of the harassment is to teach a woman to remain silent FOR LIFE. The point of the cartoon is to lambast the way women (supposedly) choose to speak, so that women STOP SPEAKING (or stop speaking the way they want to or appearing in public via their images). The point of brick-wall-ing an intelligent counterargument (a la Funky Horns) is to make ensuing conversation much less likely (the old, “fart in their faces repeatedly so they can’t hold an interesting conversation amongst themselves,” strategy). And you bring up FREE SPEECH?? Give me a break.

Comment #215: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  10:07 PM

@Jon S.

Either they are both from 4chan, or they were popularized by 4chan. It’s not always that easy to tell. A ridiculous amount of internet slang comes from there, and even concepts that your grandmother would like in their current incarnation, such as lolcats. They also appropriate things from elsewhere though, of course. If I had to hazard a guess I’d say Lunam has probably visited the site, but it’s completely possible to pick it up elsewhere.

Bracin’ mah anus is pretty self-explanatory (the sexual meaning is really no more inherent than someone saying “our football team just assfucked yours”). Interestingly people seem to be implying the girl in question deserves no pity since she said that- either they assume she’s a troll because she’s familiar with it, or they think it’s proof she should have known better/she goaded them. But I stick with my original theory, that she was somewhat prepared for backlash, but not to that extent.

Trying to explain the origin of “dat feel” is slightly more difficult because it’s a combination of a bunch of other memes. I would suggest going to KnowYourMeme.com and searching for Dat Ass, Reaction Faces and Sad Frog, if you care about the origin. Using “dat feel when ___” with the appropriate reaction face is basically like posting “That feeling when you find out your brother is also your dad” to #fml on Twitter, if it helps, except because it starts its own thread you can get people joining in with the pity party (or raging, or gloating) to a greater extent than a retweet allows. The point of explaining this is that it shows that someone using “dat feel” instead of “that feeling” is doing it for a reason, much like many subcultures use what looks like random incorrect grammar for a reason (i.e.: it conveys something more specific than the standard use that resonates with a particular community).

Comment #216: Treefinger  on  12/28  at  10:08 PM

er—by “you” I mean FH.

Comment #217: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/28  at  10:08 PM

I can think of nothing more terrifying than a world where I felt comfortable listening to the speech of everyone I encountered everywhere.  I really can’t.  That people are holding that up as a goal…  Think about what you’re saying.

This doesn’t even make a lick of sense. Terrified, really? I think that you must mean something dramatically different from “feeling comfortable listening to the speech of everyone I encountered everywhere” than the dictionary meaning of those innocuous words would suggest.

Comment #218: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  10:08 PM

I said, very clearly, that she shouldn’t have been shocked about the response she got.

I am advocating for a world in which rape threats against 15 year old girls is shocking, no matter what the venue.

So yes, effectively you are saying that I should shut up.

Comment #219: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  10:10 PM

Funky Horns, you don’t have to translate anything, she has explained it for people who don’t understand:

“I said it as a childish alternative to bracing myself. That does not give people the right to say those sorts of things to a little girl. I shouldn’t have to walk on egg shells thinking of what to say because I don’t want to harassed, but thanks. You haven’t seen the messages I have been getting, and I don’t think those three words merited all of those comments.”

She was just being funny like a 15 year old. And oblivious like a 15 year old who doesn’t know we live in a patriarchy where you can sexually harass her and send her messages asking for pictures of her naked and tell her that her tears will be the perfect lubricant in her rape and get away with it.

She is guilty of acting as if we lived in a just world. It’s a shame you and so many others proved her wrong by being like you and they are. What a brutal wake-up call.

Comment #220: Baruk  on  12/28  at  10:12 PM

Oh, well, Chet did that more succintly (and I didn’t know dat feel was derived from a Krautchan meme, so there you go. I’m guessing the “dat” spelling is a dat ass relic still, though).

Comment #221: Treefinger  on  12/28  at  10:12 PM

So this fifteen year old girl knew what was coming, made a joke about people having anal sex with her (good for her!) and then…  oh no!  People talked about sex with a fifteen year old girl!

“Blood is nature’s lubricant.”

This is your idea of talking about sex with a 15 year old girl? Something is wrong with you. No wonder you’re a comedy writer.

Comment #222: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  10:13 PM

You don’t talk about sex with a fifteen year old. Even if they “initiated” (horseshit), there’s this thing called “restraint”. If you don’t have it in that situation, YES THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU

Comment #223: kaje  on  12/28  at  10:13 PM

“I can think of nothing more terrifying than a world where I felt comfortable listening to the speech of everyone I encountered everywhere.  I really can’t.  That people are holding that up as a goal…  Think about what you’re saying.”

It’s okay, Funky Horns, we’re sex-positive here. No one wants to take away your right to enjoy your unusual fetish for being verbally degraded and offended in the privacy of your own home.

Come on, in a just world it would be possible to voice dissent and differing opinions without creeping people out or making them feel worthless in the process. That’s the goal, not “Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia”.

Comment #224: Treefinger  on  12/28  at  10:24 PM

This is your idea of talking about sex with a 15 year old girl? Something is wrong with you. No wonder you’re a comedy writer.

I still don’t believe it.  Isn’t comedy supposed to be funny? Like intentionally funny?

Comment #225: kaje  on  12/28  at  10:31 PM

I’m sorry Funky Horns and anyone else that thought the cartoon was funny or actually reflected the girl’s photo but I call bullshit.  In her photo the book was the center of the photo and completely visible except for a small bit at the bottom that was covered by her finger.  Her face was next to the book and DIDN’T COVER IT AT ALL.  (Sorry for raising my voice, but such obliviousness pisses me off.  Especially when I suspect it’s faked.)  For His Noodliness’ sake, she was showing off a present that she was excited about and making it clear that she was psyched about it.  How the @#$!*& is that any different than how almost any other person would do it?

And when you say that she shouldn’t have been shocked at the way a bunch of assholes acted and do it in such a manner that puts the blame on her and not the assholes then I have a hard time thinking anything but fuck off and die.

A fifteen year old girl thought that it was cool that her “super religious” mother gave her an atheistic book for Christmas and wanted to share that on a form for atheists.  She thought that maybe the other atheists would share her happiness.  Any other response was scummy.

Comment #226: JohnM  on  12/28  at  10:32 PM

I’ve already said the comments from the men were disgusting and wrong.

I also said that she shouldn’t have been shocked by them, given where she was posting and what her second post was.

But clearly both of those above sentences REALLY mean is that I love threatening fifteen year old girls with rape.

Yep.

Look, this has been fun.  I’ll wish all of you clear headed and rational debaters a good night’s sleep.

Comment #227: Funky Horns  on  12/28  at  10:32 PM

I actually spelled this out explicitly when I posted the comment but decided to delete the part that I am not accusing you of a violation of rights, merely pointing out that you and Amanda are making parallel arguments about what should and should not be complained about but you launched into the dystopian world where we all agree all the time. You understand that when you say “shut up about that” it is a normal part of argument but when she says “shut up about that” it is the first step towards 1984.  I am not accusing you of violating any one’s rights, but from what I see, Amanda is saying “those dudes should not have said what they said” and you are saying “Amanda should not be complaining about the redit incident.” You are arguing about what is and is not appropriate behavior to complain about When you say “she should not have been shocked” what do you mean? Are you literally mad at that she expressed surprise at the level of ugliness or do you mean she should not be complaining about what happened? And again, how is saying she should not complain substantially different than saying to shut up? I didn’t mean to use harsh words to paraphrase you and hurt your feelings, but to my weak, unempowered, uneveolved lady brain, do not complain about what happened, and shut up are veritable synonyms.

Comment #228: alysia  on  12/28  at  10:32 PM

This is your idea of talking about sex with a 15 year old girl? Something is wrong with you. No wonder you’re a comedy writer.

I still don’t believe it.  Isn’t comedy supposed to be funny? Like intentionally funny?

Supposed to be, yes. But it often isn’t. If people like Funky are getting paid to write jokes, then no wonder most comedy on TV sucks these days.

Comment #229: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  10:36 PM

I also said that she shouldn’t have been shocked by them, given where she was posting and what her second post was.

In other words, she should have known that sharing a picture of her face, and joking about “bracing mah anus” (which I read as a desire to avoid metaphorically shitting her pants, but what the fuck do I know, I’m not a professional comedy writer) on a Reddit thread ABOUT ATHEISM would have resulted in disgusting sexual harassment, degrading objectification, and multiple rape threats.

But clearly both of those above sentences REALLY mean is that I love threatening fifteen year old girls with rape.

Well, clearly threatening young girls with rape is just not that big a deal to you. It’s something young girls should take into account before they post pictures of themselves with Carl Sagan books on the internet, not something we should fight to change.

I hope you stick the flounce, you pathetic scumbag. I wonder if you think the Privilege Denying r/Atheist Scumbag meme is funny.

Comment #230: SallyStrange  on  12/28  at  10:42 PM

But you already have taken away the right to enjoy the fetish of screaming “Fire” in a crowded theater at the moment of climax.  It’s a slippery slope.  Social disapproval of rape threats and harassment is practically the same thing as making newspapers illegal.  Free speech!

At least he admitted he enjoys threatening 15 year old girls with rape.

Comment #231: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  10:43 PM

Quote from the OP:
“I said anus.
Am I missing something. I’m finding it hard to see how it is sexual.”

And then later:
“It’s for shitting.”

Funky Horns, it’s incredible some girls aren’t thinking about being raped and harassed by total strangers when they write the word “anus” in a childish-funny way, don’t you think?

Bah, so what if she wrote that, right? You’re sure she’s lying and she really meant rape with that comment anyway.

Comment #232: Baruk  on  12/28  at  10:47 PM

@SallyStrange: It’s a huge deal to him!  He wouldn’t spend this long defending his right to it so passionately, if having the ability to harass women (or girls) was unimportant to him.

Comment #233: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  10:51 PM

I hope Funky Horns doesn’t stop posting because I really feel I haven’t been mansplained to quite enough!

Comment #234: dcb-  on  12/28  at  10:55 PM

That was a super super frustrating troll. The way he was so incapable of understanding the argument that he was incapable of understanding that he did not understand the argument. The “I am not saying you should shut up, I am saying either avoid those placed or don’t complain if something bad happens!” thing in combination with thinking he was the apex of rationality. It is like he was designed specifically to annoy me.

Comment #235: alysia  on  12/28  at  11:00 PM

Nimravid:

Yeah, I was being intentionally reductionist. But my point was you can’t have a gene that sequences for Vain Photographing of self that manifests only in women. Either it would be something that manifests in all men with the gene on the X chromosome and some women would be carriers, (with then infrequent female subjects) or it would in fact be the default human behavior and then some men, with their Modified genome from the Y chromosome, would somehow fail to manifest it, not unlike color blindness. (implying a genetic disorder causing unwillingness to include self in a photograph of a subject?)

Basically, my point was that such a thing is, at best, absurdly unlikely. You can have genetic traits common among men and then rare in women, or common in everybody, but it’s very hard to make an inheritance program which would manifest as common-to-universal in women but rare-to-vanishing in men, outside of it literally functioning like primary and secondary sexual characteristics, being a program men have the genes for, but growth and development from sex hormones shut down. I find it exceedingly unlikely that there is a behavior set as trivial as “stands in front of cameras” that is governed by hormones.

Far more likely is this is a social conditioning thing, or cognitive bias on the part of people claiming “women do this all the time, guys never do!” or both.

Comment #236: karpad  on  12/28  at  11:04 PM

#235, same.  I’m just excited to watch the numbers tick up.  Who gave that guy the day off?

Comment #237: ganews_  on  12/28  at  11:07 PM

But karpad…what if there’s a suppressor-of-camera-hogging gene on the Y chromosome?  It could be the same gene that suppresses moral behavior on reddit.  It seems so much more plausible than social factors!  /sarcasm

ganews_, I’m a little heartened that we gave the rest of the world a day off from that guy.

Comment #238: Nimravid  on  12/28  at  11:18 PM

The comments Reddit are horrible. Part of the ongoing problem of infantile men refusing to grow up be real men. I have long felt that the motivating force behind Rush and his ilk was being upset that people no long thought it was funny when they farted at the dinner table. “go on pull my finger…. Ha Ha! Oh what’s wrong, have a sense of humor why don’t you.”  Pretty much the level the right has been operating on for some time.

The crux of the problem is what is a mature responsible man.  Not some one like Romney who destroys peoples life’s work for a quick bonus.  The response to the horrible treatment this young woman suffered at the hands of such incredible boors is to hold them to a standard of how a responsible man acts, and demeaning a 15 year old is not how real man behaves.

Comment #239: jricker  on  12/28  at  11:41 PM

LauraB wrote:

I read a lot, and I read in public a lot—buses, trains, planes, coffee shops, whatever.  When someone interrupts me to ask “what are you reading?” or to be like, “Oh, I love that book!” it is ALWAYS a dude.

It’s a tiny counterexample, but I (a man) did have a woman walk up to me as I was leaving a coffee joint and strike up a conversation on the way out because I’d been reading Granta. Rather unsurprisingly I guess, she’s a feminist.

Notably, even in that scenario, she made sure not to approach me to interrupt. It was only when I was leaving anyway, which says a lot.

Comment #240: catfood  on  12/29  at  12:16 AM

Growing up bookwormy (heh), I’ve had men and women bug me about what I was reading, while I was reading. The people who’ve done so are not usually fond of reading, I’ve noticed.

Comment #241: kaje  on  12/29  at  12:25 AM

Re:  Comment #116: oldfeminist on 12/28 at 03:26 PM

Well, I disagree (A) with your assertions that you ‘speak to shy men’ first off, but I have no proof against it; but mostly because I (B) am a woman who speaks to many shy men at comic book stores.  I know no ‘most’ who are misogynist.  Even my years of working at a game store didn’t make me think ‘most’ are sexist.

So, yeah.  Disagree with you.  Who woulda thunk it?
Comment #154: Crissa on 12/28 at 05:49 PM

Oh look, Crissa has a crush on oldfeminist.

Comment #242: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  12:28 AM

I also said that she shouldn’t have been shocked by them, given where she was posting and what her second post was.
But clearly both of those above sentences REALLY mean is that I love threatening fifteen year old girls with rape.

YES!  The first sentence doesn’t cover for the fact that the second sentence is a classic victim-blaming.  And yes, she should totally be shocked by people threatening to rape her in graphic detail.  That is completely shocking, even to those of us know how awful so many men in our culture are, and how dedicated so many men who wouldn’t do it themselves are to enabling it.  It’s shocking not because it’s unexpected, but because it’s so awful.

 

Comment #243: Punditus Maximus  on  12/29  at  02:01 AM

Totally too late to the party, but something that came to mind re the cartoon was all those big game hunter portraits from the early years of photography.  (“Look at me! With this thing I killed!”) 

I googled “image hunter with kill”  (sexist-manly apex) and retrieved 74.6 million images.  They’re not stock pictures and it’s about 98% men.  Then “image woman with baking” —a sexist-womanly apex—returns 28 million images, and it looks like mostly stock on the first 10 pages. 

So gun-toting dudes are at least 2.7x more likely to post a picture of themselves.  If you adjust to a per capita basis (hunters per person, bakers per person and for non-stock photos) it’s probably much higher.

Obviously this test was all kinds of bullshit, but so was that cartoon.

Comment #244: Pandagoner  on  12/29  at  02:35 AM

Re: Comment #158: Triplanetary on 12/28 at 05:59 PM

I was actually thinking it was more ‘unintended side effect’. 

And if we do let misogynists run roughshod, it’s little surprise we end up with whiny ‘nice guys’ who think that back-stabbing misogyny is normal behavior.  I don’t want to say they’re innocent, but people are products of their environment as much as they are of themselves - if we want them to behave in an ethical manner, we need to crack down on bad behavior and act in a way which makes our ‘side’ being the desirable one.

The original topic here is just a great example of where this normalized-misogyny is being incubated.

Comment #245: Crissa  on  12/29  at  02:47 AM

I’m not a “dude” (is this high school?), but I’m not quite sure how this is even worthy of writing an essay about and making bizarre generalizations about men.

Comment #246: Sofia Turkan  on  12/29  at  04:43 AM

Re: Comment #247: Sofia Turkan on 12/29 at 04:43 AM

Who made bizarre generalizations?  That some men are assholes, here’s an example where most who spoke up were assholes, oops, can’t say some guys are assholes from this evidence?

What?

Comment #247: Crissa  on  12/29  at  05:00 AM

*The assumption that if a behavior is coded “female” instead of “male”, that automatically makes it inferior.
That’s all the more annoying in that I made the conscious decision a few years ago to start including more people in my holiday pictures - because at the end of the day people are more interesting than things, and pictures of things in particular are much less interesting than the things themselves whereas pictures of people remind you of said people. So I noticed that years later pictures of things and vistas were interesting only to me, and only mildly interesting at that for most of them, whereas the same pictures with people in them were much better. And they’re automatically interesting to the person in them, as well as anyone who knows them.

So yeah, this is a case where I’d say the “female” version is definitely superior although it might not be obvious at first glance. It makes me angry that brain-dead people would not only assume that was “female” behavior, but would additionally think it’s inferior. (to be fair, holiday pictures and pictures made just to show people something aren’t quite the same. Even there I’d say the picture with a person in it is much more interesting, but also more dangerous as that poor girl discovered)

Comment #248: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  07:03 AM

Close—my first thought was “What about all those dudes with pictures of themselves in front of their stupid cars?”

Don’t be silly - males posing against MassivePenisSubstitutes don’t count. Girls are vain because they put themselves in pictures that aren’t sexual advertising.

More seriously, did anyone note that the actual picture had the book fully exposed next to the girl (cute girl admittedly), but that the parody cartoon got its “humour” from pointing out that females are so vain that they post themselves blocking the actual subject?  Gee, guys, do you think you might be working from your own fantasy world rather than reality there?

Comment #249: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/29  at  07:25 AM

People keep trying to make feminism into some general, non-specific movement in a way they don’t try with any other social justice movement.

Uh-huh.  That’s why people talking about ‘the gay agenda” are always referring to a laser-like focus on equal civil rights.  Or for that matter, the way the anti-Islamic loons never see breathing while Muslim as a sign of a conspiracy (the whole “ground zero mosque” bullsh!t was just an illusion).

Any social justice movement authoritarians disagree with will have tons and tons of sh!t thrown at it in the hopes that stuff will stick. Everything they hate will be shoehorned in as the fault of those damned dirty feminists, or gays, or Muslims…

Comment #250: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/29  at  07:35 AM

Fatman: Yes, let’s peer review jokes for political correctness. Great idea.

That is very much NOT what he said, as you would know if you had paid attention to what he wrote. Maybe you should try that some time.

What Fatman was suggesting was to NON-PEER-review your jokes. The whole POINT is that you, and your peers, aren’t in the best position to tell whether something is racist or sexist. People who are regularly exposed to racism and sexism are in a substantially better position to do so. (obviously these are relative positions - there is no One True Arbiter of racism/sexism)

Of course that would be if you cared about whether jokes are racist or sexist, which you obviously don’t, so it’s even strange that you’re having this conversation.

Comment #251: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  07:40 AM

Of course that would be if you cared about whether jokes are racist or sexist, which you obviously don’t, so it’s even strange that you’re having this conversation.

Yeah well, if you take away racism and rape jokes what material will he be left with?

Comment #252: bexley  on  12/29  at  08:10 AM

Reading these comments reminds me of bell hooks’ story about white privilege.  I can’t remember it in detail, it’s been years since I read the book she wrote this in.  But the gist is that some white guy wants her and/or her black friend to get their asses up so he can sit.  Or the airline tries to move them.  Something like that.  ANyway, hooks writes about fantasizing about murdering that white man.  And I first came into contact with this when some white asshole started calling bell hooks a murderer.  I had read some of her, but not that story.  So I went and got the book and read it myself.  And of course, she’s not a murderer.

She’s enraged.

She feels rage.

And that is what I feel reading these comments.  Rage.  It takes my breath away. 

And if I were ever to give full voice to the thoughts and feelings this rage causes within me, I’d be called hysterical, crazy, the usual.

But will any white man ever feel this rage?  This killing rage?

Comment #253: Daisy  on  12/29  at  08:12 AM

Jon S :

At first blush, geeks acting like a bunch of misogynists whenever a woman takes an interest in geeky things seems counterproductive. I mean, wouldn’t you WANT an environment with women around who share your interests? I wonder what it says about a person’s relationship towards sex and gender that this logic isn’t completely compelling.

I think ignorance is a huge factor. Those male geeks live in a male-dominated environment and given misogyny doesn’t affect them they don’t see it as misogyny, like fish who don’t see the water. And people pointing out misogyny gets an automatic reaction of disbelief, and defensiveness (“but if X is misogynist, then all my normal behavior must be misogynist and I can’t do anything !”) because the misogyny is integrated into their “normal”. And it takes a lot of work to extricate the misogyny from the normal (“right, so it’s not actually X that is misogynist, it’s X1… and it does imply that what I thought was normal behavior Y is misogynist so I should cut it out, however behaviors W, V and Z that I thought were threatened are actually A-OK…”), a lot of work and stepping outside of your own experience, so I don’t think it’s surprising that many shy away from it. Especially when they don’t know what the end result will be like.

I’ll agree that as people get older the ignorance turns into willful ignorance and at that point there isn’t much to be done, but I do have some sympathy for young men who simply don’t know all that stuff. Mostly because I was a young woman who was in many ways exactly like them. Except that I had just enough of a clue to shut up about my more clueless ideas, and being a woman it was easier to get a clue just from experiencing a bit more of life.

Comment #254: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  08:16 AM

cynickal :

Wow.
No one should look at my facebook then.
Because the stuffed sheep I carried all over Scotland was all about me posing with it.

Actually that is the strategy of a (male) friend of mine. He’s got a little stuffed Capybara (a popular stuffed toy in Japan for some ungodly reason) called Kawaii-kun that he endeavours to put in all his holiday pictures. It’s a bit more private-jokey than putting people in the pictures but it does make them more interesting in a different way. And in some ways it’s even easier than my strategy which involves either annoying my travelling partners or needing to catch the exact moment they’re in a good position. Also, works when you’re travelling alone.

Comment #255: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  08:31 AM

My inclination is to wonder how many of these assholes really are atheists.  Wouldn’t an atheist user group tend to attract a lot of right wing trolls who would go apeshit when they see a cute girl validating her atheism?

Comment #256: Kyartist  on  12/29  at  08:41 AM

@kaje @203 : Love them ! Why have I never heard those before ?

Comment #257: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  09:00 AM

Kyartist :

My inclination is to wonder how many of these assholes really are atheists.  Wouldn’t an atheist user group tend to attract a lot of right wing trolls who would go apeshit when they see a cute girl validating her atheism?

Given recent things like Elevatorgate and increasing scrutiny of sexism among nerds in general I’m afraid that hypothesis isn’t required to explain the data.

Comment #258: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  09:02 AM

Im not saying atheists aren’t sexist, just that people hate them almost as much as women.  Google “atheists should be” and look at the results.

Comment #259: Kyartist  on  12/29  at  09:08 AM

@Kyartist : I didn’t think you were saying atheists aren’t sexist. But I’m not sure what atheists being hated “almost as much as”* women has to do with either Amanda’s post or your own comment. Unless you mean to say that all those reddit comments stemmed from anti-atheism instead of sexism, and that seems even less defensible to me.

I was actually going to add to my original response to you that if the blowback was indeed from right-wing trolls they’d be dissing her and Carl Sagan for their atheism, not making rape jokes, but then I thought that those right-wing trolls could perfectly well be sexist so there’s no reason they wouldn’t do rape jokes, so I thought better of it. But if you are indeed suggesting that anti-atheism was a non-negligible component of those comments then I have to ask: why was none of it explicit?

* (quotes because I don’t think pseudo-quantitative comparisons are at all useful; oppression isn’t an ordered group)

Comment #260: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  09:33 AM

My inclination is to wonder how many of these assholes really are atheists.  Wouldn’t an atheist user group tend to attract a lot of right wing trolls who would go apeshit when they see a cute girl validating her atheism?
Comment #257: Kyartist on 12/29 at 08:41 AM

You think atheists are not likely to be as misogynist as the rest of the population?  Why?  They grew up in the same misogynist society the rest of us did.  That they reject God/gods doesn’t mean they reject everything else that’s stupid.  Plenty of them subscribe to evo-psych and L/libertarianism.

That theory further suggests that the people on such reddits think that this kind of discourse is shameful and that it would discredit atheism.  I don’t think you have any evidence for that.  It’s NORMAL there, and a lot of other places.

Comment #261: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  09:48 AM

@ 262, no I don’t think atheists are less likely to be misogynist.  I just think they are more likely to attract trolls than, say, a vinyl records group (well, maybe not).  I don’t know reddit at all, so I was just wondering if sexism + theism was a bit more toxic than just sexism, that’s all.  I’m not diminishing or justifying the sexism, of which this is an especially sickening example, just pointing out that it might be heightened by the catalyst of other phobias in this context. The presence of one doesn’t mean the absence of the other. Is it purely “stay out of my clubhouse” misogyny or would the attacks have been that virulent in a less controversial clubhouse?

Comment #262: Kyartist  on  12/29  at  10:00 AM

@Comment #254: Daisy on 12/29 at 07:12 AM

And that is what I feel reading these comments.  Rage.  It takes my breath away.

And if I were ever to give full voice to the thoughts and feelings this rage causes within me, I’d be called hysterical, crazy, the usual.

But will any white man ever feel this rage?  This killing rage?

Speaking for myself only, the answer is yes. Yes I think I know what you mean. The kind of rage where it feels like a flashbulb going off in your head, where you want to find the perpetrators and explain the problem to them with a tire iron? It’s not over the same thing, but I can certainly understand that kind of anger.

Comment #263: atheist  on  12/29  at  10:14 AM

@caravelle # 255 - no, sorry ignorance doesn’t cut it.

To gleefully discuss fucking a 15 yo up the ass with no lubricant so that she cries, is not ignorant.

Do not call them ignorant. 

There is simply no decency in them and ignorant people can be decent people.  You do not need to be educated to find out that ramming your dry cock up a girl’s ass until she cries, is wrong, it’s rape, it’s torture, it’s inhuman, it’s sexual violence for gratification.

They are not ignorant.  They are animals, they are sadists, no decent person should ever give them any quarter, if guaranteed they would not be caught they would act on their violent sadistic desires.  If i caught them near my daughter they would not leave the same way they entered.

Most of all, above all:  THEY ARE DANGEROUS.

Comment #264: Daisy  on  12/29  at  10:15 AM

@ atheist #264, yes that is what I would like to do.

Comment #265: Daisy  on  12/29  at  10:16 AM

Is it purely “stay out of my clubhouse” misogyny or would the attacks have been that virulent in a less controversial clubhouse?

Are you just raising the question or do you plan on ever answering it ? Because in my book, if hypothesis A explains all the data, and there is no positive evidence for hypothesis B, you pick hypothesis A.

We both seem to agree that sexism among atheists could perfectly well explain the reaction; previous blowups in other corners of the atheist and skeptosphere have shown this. Do you have an actual reason to think that anti-atheism was also involved here? If not, “it could be the case” isn’t convincing.

Comment #266: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  10:20 AM

@Daisy : Not understanding the relationship between words and reality, especially purportedly non-serious words and reality, and how words affect people, can be caused by ignorance. Also, if that wasn’t clear in my original post, I certainly don’t think ignorance is the main factor for everyone, or even any specific proportion of everyone (although I would say the proportion in young geeks is not negligible).

I’m not going to discuss this further.

Comment #267: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  10:30 AM

@Comment #247: Sofia Turkan on 12/29 at 04:43 AM

I’m not a “dude” (is this high school?), but I’m not quite sure how this is even worthy of writing an essay about and making bizarre generalizations about men.

The essay is worthy because it is a real-world glimpse at how misogynist commenters try to deny social space to girls and women. In this example, as we have seen, the misogynists successfully denied the use of Reddit r/Atheism to this girl, and almost certainly deterred other women from participating. The effect of this harassment on girls and women, especially carried out across their entire lifetimes, could be nothing short of profound.

I am also not sure what generalizations about men have been made, could you please explain.

Comment #268: atheist  on  12/29  at  10:32 AM

Sorry to flush a cherry bomb down the plumbing of your fantasy of being a “comedy writer,” but jokes are constantly peer-reviewed. It’s called the writer’s room, FFS. Hell, even aspiring comedy writers grasp the concept of spitballing gags.

Comment #269: Ticky  on  12/29  at  10:47 AM

@caravelle 268

It’s okay.  I’m not dying to discuss it with you.

I don’t know how you mean what you are writing, but what I get is; those poor young geeks.

Firstly, I don’t give a flying fuck about the geeks, even if that is in fact, what they are.
Secondly, you have zero evidence that they are any such thing.

But there is plenty of evidence that they are dangerous, sexual predators.  IMO their identities should be exposed so that any woman in their orbit, or who should come within their orbit, can be armed with this knowledge.

Comment #270: Daisy  on  12/29  at  11:19 AM

Hilariously (OH NO WAIT MAYBE NOT) I actually recently restated to someone that I don’t identify as religious because I don’t want to hear what an imaginary being says about how I should live my life, and I don’t identify as big-A atheist because I don’t want to hear what random dudes’ penises says about how I should live my life. This kind of brodude douchery (liberally crossed with random run-ins with internet evopsych) is exactly why I have zero interest in hanging out in the atheist club just about anywhere. It’s incredibly depressing to realize that when you remove the religion from misogyny what you get is actually just irreligious misogyny.

Comment #271: purpleshoes0  on  12/29  at  11:20 AM

Re: the comments there are the result of religious trolls - I’ve met plenty of self-identified atheists who are also very much against birth control and abortion. They proudly proclaim that they aren’t anti-choice (“pro-life”) because Jesus tells them so and have told me point blank that if I don’t want a fetus taking up residence in my uterus, to “keep your legs together” (their words).

My thought to that is of course, “well done, you’re a misogynist asshole all on your own, not because some religion supposedly tells you to be.” Their thought is that they can’t possibly be misogynist because they are atheists and therefore all conclusions they draw are logical because they supposedly question shit or some such and that therefore if they are against a person with a uterus taking control of their own body it must be because their supreme logic has lead them to conclude that. To them, they are immune to prejudices and therefore cannot possibly think the way they do because they are misogynist assholes. It must simply be that we with the uteri do not understand their smarts.

I’ve found that there is no limit to the amount of self-appreciating ego-stroking, circular logic one can engage in when one is convinced of their own supreme smartness. In short, in my experience, atheists are perfectly capable of being sexist assholes, and in fact, have a specific brand of sexist assholery all their own because it comes with a heaping dose of mansplaining, faux-gressive garbage. See also, libertarians.

Comment #272: LaylaBug  on  12/29  at  11:22 AM

“Sorry to flush a cherry bomb down the plumbing of your fantasy of being a “comedy writer,” but jokes are constantly peer-reviewed. It’s called the writer’s room, FFS. Hell, even aspiring comedy writers grasp the concept of spitballing gags.”

So close.  You used a terms that comedy writers used, and you did it almost correctly.  Kudos!

First off, “spitballing” means “brainstorming,” and has nothing to do with what jokes are chosen.  So yes, writers throw out pitches.  But no, those jokes aren’t peer reviewed.  Rooms aren’t a democracy.  The showrunner picks the joke he likes, and that’s what goes in.

But of course none of that has anything to do with what Fatman - and most people in this thread - believe should happen with humor.  It should be tested on the subject of the humor, and if they don’t find it funny, it has no place in decent society.  In other words, Lenny Bruce should have tested his Nixon material on Nixon.

When you start trying to silence artistic expression - and sorry, that comic falls into that category - you’re no better than the right wing whackos who try to shut down art exhibits.  To hear a humorist go after another humorist is… surprising.

Comment #273: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  11:24 AM

I was actually thinking it was more ‘unintended side effect’. 

Doesn’t seem unintended to me. It seems like ensuring that men and women can’t interact as normal, equal humans, either professionally, casually, or romantically, is a major goal of misogynistic behavior.

Comment #274: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  11:30 AM

LaylaBug, I think there are many atheists who are in it specifically for the fun of calling other people stupid. I’m not saying that’s all atheists, but much as many people join religions because they get off on self-righteousness, plenty of teenage boys seem to get into atheism because they love shouting other people down and feeling superior to them. It’s going to attract people who are into a certain kind of feeling superior that ports pretty easily over to loathing certain “feminine” traits (emotionality, intuition, blah blah blah - I’m not saying these are actual woman-only things, just that they’re things that certain atheist brodudes could easily classify as both feminine and Wrong) and also that special kind of douche, the guy who’s Just Asking Questions, like “isn’t rape a natural part of reproduction” and “studies show black people have lower IQs, so shouldn’t science take that into account”.

AGAIN: I am not tarring all atheists with the same brush. I just observe that if I meet a young man of a certain age who identifies as an atheist, I seem to have a higher incidence of hearing the above than if I’m dealing with a run-of-the-mill secular person.

Comment #275: purpleshoes0  on  12/29  at  11:32 AM

@ 262, no I don’t think atheists are less likely to be misogynist.  I just think they are more likely to attract trolls than, say, a vinyl records group (well, maybe not).  I don’t know reddit at all, so I was just wondering if sexism + theism was a bit more toxic than just sexism, that’s all.  I’m not diminishing or justifying the sexism, of which this is an especially sickening example, just pointing out that it might be heightened by the catalyst of other phobias in this context. The presence of one doesn’t mean the absence of the other. Is it purely “stay out of my clubhouse” misogyny or would the attacks have been that virulent in a less controversial clubhouse?
Comment #263: Kyartist on 12/29 at 10:00 AM

Treat this like an experiment, rudimentary though it is.  You postulate that this particular discussion is more virulent than it would be if it were identical in every respect but subject, and trolling anti-atheists explain the problem. 

So you have to show that this discussion is more virulent than you’d expect based on the population and subject of discussion.

To do this, you would have to first set your baseline on the virulence of a sexist and misogynist thread for other reddit and reddit-type groups not targeted by conservative trolls. 

Or you could find examples of other atheist groups being demonstrably trolled into sexist and misogynistic exchanges by anti-atheist trolls to show that sexist and misogynist anti-atheism trolling is normal in atheist groups.

Or you could find some kind of evidence that sexist and misogynist participants in the discussion in question are first-timers who aren’t really atheists but pretend to be atheist and post in trollish ways so we can guess they are trolls.

Comment #276: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  11:37 AM

I think it was in “The Facebook Effect,” a book about the evolution of Facebook, that had a great example of gender differences in photo preferences.  It used to be that Facebook allowed only one photo, your profile pic.  When they turned on the software to allow people to add more photos, the people at Facebook watched on a giant screen at their HQ where they could view postings to see what would happen as a result.  They soon started seeing a lot of photos being uploaded by women, depicting them with their friends.  Not so many from men.  It seemed like women really wanted to celebrate their friendships with other women by posting photos of them with their friends. 
I think this is a terrific quality, wanting to celebrate and memorialize you and your friendships, and you with your loved ones.  I think the cartoon is off-base in indicating women want pictures of themselves obscuring everything else.  There does seem to be a gender difference in that women in general are more apt to appreciate photos that include themselves with the people they love.
I personally try to take photos with people in them, because when I look at these photos in the future I would rather see the people than the places (preferably the people and the places).

Comment #277: lpy  on  12/29  at  11:47 AM

I don’t know how you mean what you are writing, but what I get is; those poor young geeks.

Yeah, I could tell. I’m rather disappointed given I thought I’d made my post clearly about generalities, not this specific incident (as I interpreted Jon S’s question to be), and I tried to personalize my own reaction as much as possible so it wouldn’t come across as prescriptive but I guess that failed. I’ll have to think harder next time.

Comment #278: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  11:51 AM

I just want to add one thing before this kingidiot takes the thread over again talking about what his penis finds funny.

I feel so sad for the 15 yo who was trying to connect, in a very sweet way, with others who share her beliefs.  I hope someone has found a way to reach out to her and to direct her to feminist atheists.  Who knows, she may become a warrior herself.  She certainly will have passed through the trial by way of fire.  I hope she knows she has allies out here, and that there is a place for her.

Comment #279: Daisy  on  12/29  at  11:51 AM

Oh good! Funky Horns is back! Maybe I can get this professional comedy writer to approve of my new, improved White Guy jokes.

http://kajedheat.tumblr.com/post/14975024792/white-guy-jokes

Comment #280: kaje  on  12/29  at  11:51 AM

@ caravelle, I am sorry if I misunderstood you though.

Comment #281: Daisy  on  12/29  at  11:51 AM

But of course none of that has anything to do with what Fatman - and most people in this thread - believe should happen with humor.  It should be tested on the subject of the humor, and if they don’t find it funny, it has no place in decent society.  In other words, Lenny Bruce should have tested his Nixon material on Nixon.

When you start trying to silence artistic expression - and sorry, that comic falls into that category - you’re no better than the right wing whackos who try to shut down art exhibits.  To hear a humorist go after another humorist is… surprising.
Comment #274: Funky Horns on 12/29 at 11:24 AM

Nope.  Punching up is okay.  Punching down isn’t.  Even if you think women are oppressing you.

And no one’s advocating censorship, or VIOLATING your (inevitably misspelled) “FIRST AMMENDMENT” RIGHTS. 

Just telling you that shitty jokes are shitty and maybe you are an asshole for telling them.  And maybe you could improve your humor by making it less hackneyed. 

“Observing” that women are “vain” and “hog the camera” is trite.  It avoids discussing why they seem so in favor of eliciting the automatic “recognition”—which is simply a recognition of a stereotype, not a truth.  Otherwise why would anti-Black humor have gotten people to laugh if Black people aren’t actually lazy, stupid and devious? 

“It’s funny because it’s true” is a misnomer.  Things are funny because they are culturally defined as funny.  You are facile at playing those strings, apparently never stopping to think there might be others.

I have no doubt you get paid to write jokes.  I hear a shit ton of your kind of joke on TV, radio, read them everywhere.  This does not mean they are good or funny.  Just that they fit the stereotypes of the people you’re pitching to and their audience. 

Your success means you get paid, but it doesn’t mean what you’re doing is valuable or true.  No matter how many idiots are laffing.

Comment #282: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  11:52 AM

Why are we taking his word that he’s a paid comedy writer? I want some proof. An IMDB link, an article on Slate, a Youtube video. Anything.

Comment #283: kaje  on  12/29  at  12:01 PM

Hey, FunkyShoes, do you write for “Work It”?  From your point of view I think you must.  Please let me be the millionth person to tell you that your show sucks.

Comment #284: Eileen  on  12/29  at  12:01 PM

Again, I have no idea how we get from gendered behavior in one culture to genetics.  You have to be sexist as shit—just hate the hell out of women—for that to be important to you.

I want to emphasize that this is true.  The moment you reach for evo-psych explanations to discuss gender differences in a single society is the moment you out yourself as hating women with a passionate fire that consumes your being.

Yes, of course Funky Horns endorses 15 year olds getting rape threats.  Because Funky Horns hates the shit out of all women and is down with any bad thing that happens to any one of them.

 

Comment #285: Punditus Maximus  on  12/29  at  12:14 PM

@Funky:

Why are you back?  I’m genuinely curious now. 

For what it’s worth, I’ve always thought that if you have to explain why your joke is funny, then it isn’t funny.  To imply that the people who aren’t laughing with you don’t possess an evolved sense of humor seems like you’re protesting too much.  And as others have said, good humor is humor that punches up, not down.  Good humor is something that challenges stereotypes - it doesn’t confirm them.  I’m not sure why you don’t understand why people wouldn’t want to laugh at something that just confirms the prejudices already against them.

Comment #286: mythbri  on  12/29  at  12:31 PM

The moment you reach for evo-psych explanations to discuss gender differences in a single society

The phrase “human nature” is a huge pet peeve of mine. When people say “it’s human nature to…” I call bullshit. You haven’t experienced the vast majority of humanity. You can only speak to (in my case) American nature, and even then not authoritatively.

In every case when someone says something is “human nature” what they actually mean is that it’s very important for them to believe that. Libertarians talk about selfishness/greed/whatever being human nature to justify their own selfishness. And misogynists talk about gender differences being inherent to human nature to justify their hatred of women. In general it’s very important to these incurious twits that their culturally taught assumptions remain undisturbed.

Comment #287: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  12:36 PM

Funky Horns, I only believe that humor should be tested on the subject if you intend not to offend that subject.  If you intend not to be sexist against women then you should check with women and listen to their responses.  If you do not care if your humor is sexist then you should not bother.  If you are fine with your humor to being offensive to Newt Gingrich then you should not bother testing it on him.  I do not think art should be censored, I have no problem with artists having the right to create sexist art, but if the artist does not wish to be sexist then they should try not to create sexist art.

You said that if you were to discover that you were behaving in a sexist manner that you would want to stop.  How do you determine if you are behaving in a sexist manner?  Do you rely solely on your own understanding of sexism?

Let me try an analogy.  Imagine you are giving someone a massage, and the person that you are messaging says, “stop pressing so hard, that hurts.”  Would you continue massaging them in the same manner because that amount of pressure would not hurt you, or do you alter your technique to suit the stated request of person you are massaging?

Or suppose you told a joke highlighting your understanding of the differences between your race and the race of a group with less social capital than members of your race typically have.  If members of the other race that was the subject of your joke were to say, “hey, that joke is both based on a false premise and racist,” would you ignore them?

Comment #288: Fatman  on  12/29  at  12:41 PM

You take this, and the elevator incident at the atheist forum - that’s some powerful signs that atheism, as a ideology of negation, does not have an affirmative code.

Do religious people not live up to their ethical codes? Yes. But the point is, they HAVE a code to stray from. Atheists don’t have that - in fact the same sense of licentious freedom they get from negation of a higher authority might be expressed in this sense of erotic license.

Again, as I pointed out about 270 comments ago - does this also show that sexual segregation can have some practical utility for women as well as men? Maybe the notion of a single law that applies to everyone is too simplistic. Perhaps Andrea Dworkin has a good point to make!

In effect, Marcotte’s rush to defend a budding lass from the prurient and salacious keyboards of terrible terrible terrible men, just goes to show that we really do have different standards for different people.

Having said all that, isn’t a bit of stretch to conflate anonymous comments typed into a keyboard - and most of the comments were to other commenters, not the lass, with some kind of coordinated effort to prevent women from reading books? That’s a bridge to far. And even if there were some kind of effort on the part of atheists to oppress women by preventing them from reading - well it doesn’t seem to be all that effective.

A few more points just to clear the deck: and these address pretty much everything Marcotte writes about men.

I used to know a poet back in the ‘90’s poetry slam glory days in Chicago. She ran away from home and years later, I saw her again and found out she started stripping, then soon turned to prostitution. She told me “I know all about men now. I know what they’re really about!”

But by that same standard, any John could point to a prostitute and say “See her? That’s what women are all about!”

Why should Marcotte point to anonymous geeks not even blogging but just commenting on a blog, and then claim that they represent male power? If we are going to talk about male power, wouldn’t it work a lot better to point to a college professor or something? Now the proverbial web geek in his parent’s basement is equated with ‘the man?’

And a final note: Is typing prurient and obscene comments into a keyboard a symptom of masculinity unbound or symptom of ‘insecurity about his masculinity.’  It seems a bit of stretch to attack the same act as both at the same time? Which is it?

Comment #289: KingElvis  on  12/29  at  12:42 PM

Your argument earlier was that the joke was not sexist, merely observations. Do you think that Lenny Bruce’s jokes were not anti-Nixon, but merely simple observations or that Jon Stewart is not actually making fun of fox news? Nixon and fox news both have every right to speak up for themselves and claim that jon stewart is wrong and his jokes are stupid. Your argument is so much closer to “shut up” then Amanda’s is to “use the government to censor all offensive humor”. Yet when I paraphrased you that way it was a run to the fainting couch. No one is disputing the right to make offensive jokes. the argument is over whether you should stand up for yourself/others if someone is barraged with harassing comments that include jokes. You argument is that there are some places that are just like that and you should either avoid those places, or accept the harassment w/o complaint. Making this argument is not taking away the right of anyone to say it, merely advocating against complaining, which is a wrong argument, but not a rights taking away argument.

Also, not to nitpick, and perhaps the ladies you hang around evolved butt holes that clench to penis-shape, but us pre-evolved ladies actually clench our anusses to keep from pooping our pants in fear. You relax your anus for sex acts.

Comment #290: alysia  on  12/29  at  12:58 PM

@alysia, 291: I find it highly unlikely that our resident creator of Two and a Half Wastes of Carbon has any real familiarity with any kind of enjoyable sex act.

Comment #291: Well, what?  on  12/29  at  01:09 PM

@290: well, atheists do have a code, it’s just that the code prizes skepticism and empiricism and not empathy/fairness/liberty/equality, which are typically only guaranteed to be valued if you have other affiliations. Also, atheists who have no real interest in those things can often find their skeptic faculties impaired, because they are far more likely to only question obvious woo and religious doctrine and take other social dictates at face value.

Comment #292: Treefinger  on  12/29  at  01:11 PM

Kingelvis—Amanda is obviously not arguing that there is some evil man headquarters where they launch plots to keep ladies from reading and out of certain social spaces. I won’t speak to the reading thing because I don’t have experience with such harassment, but reddittors did not coordinate a harassment campaign so much as the social mores of reddit are such that when a woman posts a picture of herself, you go degrade her sexually. Similarly there is no central command taht dictates that you should always answer the question “how are you” with “fine”.

As for masculinity, if you look up any basic, gender studies 101, the whole point of masculinity is that you are never enough of a man and thus all masculinity performance is insecure. To be truly secure one has to just stop worrying about masculinity and be himself.

Comment #293: alysia  on  12/29  at  01:15 PM

Actually, Amanda, my expertise comes from being a professional comedy writer my entire adult life.

This doesn’t surprise me. Pro comedy is full of outright misogyny and lazy sexism. “Ha ha ha, menz and chicks are just different amirite?!”

BTW, “political correctness” is always a red flag for “I’m an asshole who wants to pretend my assholery is daring and original and that I’m being brave, but once I’m called on it I will whine like a baby.” HTH, HANL.

“I can think of nothing more terrifying than a world where I felt comfortable listening to the speech of everyone I encountered everywhere.” Lucky you, you have the privilege of being unable to imagine anything more terrifying.

And, to off your douchecanoeity, you victim-blame the girl for posting about an atheist book in an atheist thread and not disguising the fact that she’s female. Bravo, asshat.

I see Miguel is still the same blithering MRA Nice Guy™ twit he’s always been. If the topic is rape culture, Miguel, I really don’t give a fuck if “shy guys” get their dicks wet or not. Go jerk off and cry, like you do every single night of your life.

KingShitbag, nobody here cares about what your penis thinks or what about your oh-so-superior manbrain “thinks.” You never do anything here but derail, mansplain, and otherwise exhibit absolutely no insight from having spent any time on a feminist blog. You don’t understand privilege, you don’t understand power differentials, you don’t understand anything that requires you to actually consider your prejudices about gender instead of just shift them around a bit. In short, you’re a waste of skin.

R. Stanton Scott: If it’s not about you, it’s not about you. All of us women have had the experience of reading in a public space and having our attention demanded by some pushy douchebag who felt entitled to it.

Sofia Turkan was in another post here recently minimizing misogyny. If she’s really a woman, she’s got a serious case of internalized misogyny.

On a different note, Ashley at #28: I agree about things that are “gendered female” being considered inferior. However, I myself prefer photos of buildings, landscapes, and animals to photos of people, probably because I’m not entirely neurotypical.

Comment #294: Nobody in Particular  on  12/29  at  01:18 PM

You take this, and the elevator incident at the atheist forum - that’s some powerful signs that atheism, as a ideology of negation, does not have an affirmative code.

Fail.

 

Comment #295: Col Bat Guano  on  12/29  at  01:30 PM

Kaje, those jokes are hilarious and I’m still giggling about them.  Good job!

King Elvis, men don’t know shit about women in the same way that white people don’t know shit about people who aren’t white.  When you are the oppressed, you have to monitor the behavior, thoughts, and feelings of the oppressor to navigate through life effectively.  I trust what a women who was prostituted has to say about men more than I’d trust even my own opinion.

Comment #296: stubbles  on  12/29  at  01:33 PM

To the larger point:  as far as I’m concerned, activist atheists just might be more annoying than evangelicals.  Our identity is wrapped up in not believing in something and then trying to convince people that the beliefs that bring them comfort are stupid.  You can’t help but be an asshole when you act as though being a minority of people who don’t have a belief is a social justice movement. 

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t technically have a problem with this.  A few months ago I accidentally told my 6 year old niece that there’s no such thing as god and now my brother/sister-in-law can’t get her to re-believe the shit their minister says.  They’re pretty fucking pissed off at me, but I’d rather deal with that than perpetuating a lie to a child who doesn’t know better.

Comment #297: stubbles  on  12/29  at  01:42 PM

Yesterday, I lived an example of this: sitting at a bus stop reading a book while waiting, absorbed in the story, when some guy in a car felt compelled to interrupt to get my attention.

“...BOOK!...” was all I caught, but whatever he had to say, the upshot was that yeah, a woman reading a book, lost in her own thoughts, simply could not be tolerated.

Comment #298: judybrowni  on  12/29  at  01:43 PM

Thanks all, but I won’t rest until I get the approval of a Professional Comedy Writer (TM).

Comment #299: kaje  on  12/29  at  01:44 PM

There’s also a similar phenomenon with texting and older generation creepers. I get this at work when I’m on my break all the time. Dude, I have to deal with creepy old guys all goddamn day, and I only get ten glorious minutes when I can check my blogs and email. BUT NOOOOO YOU HAVE TO BUG ME THERE TOO. “What you texting about honey hur dur dur”

Comment #300: kaje  on  12/29  at  01:54 PM

#276: purpleshoes0 yeah, I’m not even sure if it’s teenage boys so much, just there are a lot of people in general across the board who are going to use anything to justify their being insufferable narcissists. Religious assholes will use their religion and supposed piety to assert supposed superiority (often men, but not always, see Phylis Schafly). Heck, that even extends to some wine snobs. There are plenty of atheists I’ve met who are really cool people. There are also plenty who are assholes. I guess I’m just annoyed at the idea that no belief in deity = enlightened progressive. That’s what atheists WANT to think of themselves as, but the actions of a lot of them show that a lot of them are anything but. It just seems like the ridiculous notion that women can’t be anti-feminist. It’s simple-minded and demonstrably false.

Changing gears, you know, nothing makes me laugh more than being told the reason why I don’t think something is funny is because my funny bone is broken. I mean, implying that I’m a humorless feminist bitch who wants to censor ALL THE THINGS? Comedic gold!

I really don’t get how jokes AREN’T peer reviewed. Even if you figure for someone doing stand-up when there may not be a team of writers (which there can be), if your sketch stinks, the audience is your peer review. If they say “that’s not funny asshole” either literally via comment on the interwebz, or figuratively via boos, it ISN’T goddamn funny. The point of comedy is not necessarily to amuse yourself, but your audience. The problem is, we get crowds in our kyriarchal society, who are chock full of sexist, racist assholes who will laugh their hats off at racist/sexist/ableist/etc-ist garbage. That doesn’t mean the garbage is funny, it’s still garbage, just, the crowd is full of sexist/racist/ableist/etc-ist assholes. My advice is to look at your audience. If they’re chortling into their misogo-brews over “joking” about raping a child, your jokes are very likely full of garbage - cleverly crafted as they may be.

The people calling someone an asshole for “joking” about raping a child aren’t trying to take away free speech (the freedom! Oh I WEEP for the freedom) they’re exercising their right to call you a misogynist fuckbag. It works both ways. Of course, that leads me to believe that the folks who whimper over their infringed free speech rights don’t really give a shit about free speech, it’s their privilege to call anyone who isn’t a straight white dood all sorts of things without anyone telling them they’re being assholes that they view as a “right”. Sorry, if you have the right to act like a shithead, I have the right to call you one. Good grief.

Comment #301: LaylaBug  on  12/29  at  01:58 PM

#298 Stubbles:

There is the dilemma of all religions which make claims on the supernatural. It’s very much like Santa Claus - sooner or later the child figures out the logistics just can’t work.

I think this is what Nietzsche is talking about when he claims that only Christianity is the spawn of nihilism.

So what happens when the veil is inevitably lifted from the myth?

There are more esoteric levels of theology which emphasize the subtle nuances, and in the inner circle of some sects - Catholicism mainly - there is a ‘higher’ understanding of the meaning of scripture, but for a sect that has one foot in ‘heaven’ - there is an inevitable letdown when the “Santa epiphany” comes.

Comment #302: KingElvis  on  12/29  at  02:18 PM

This is the part I’m having trouble with, re: the comic:

Of course, the funniest way to shoot down that comic would have been to edit in a crudely-drawn dick on the “male” side and repost it.*  Funny and accurate!

Comment #17: Dave Fried

I think that would be a hilarious response.  That would make me, a man, laugh.  Do men send pictures of their genitals over the internet more than women send pictures of their breasts?  I have no idea, but that comic proposal is still funny.

Jokes arise when you put a value on that difference. Here, the joke only works if you think women are shit.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte

I don’t think men are shit, but Dave’s joke is funny.  I don’t think women are shit, but I laughed (mildly) when I first saw the comic.  In both cases I imagine a certain segment of the population: idiot men sending cock shots all over the place (Favre, Weiner…etc.); with the original comic, I think of some friends I have that take 4,000 pictures every time we go out, 90% containing themselves. 

But I don’t see that as a “bad” thing, it’s just a habit that makes me laugh.  I am fully willing to accept that to the population as a whole it’s not accurate, men do that just as often as women.  Nevertheless, as I look through my facebook friends’ pictures, I notice first, that my women friends post roughly 800 times as many pictures as my guy friends, and the vast majority include pictures of themselves.  Again, so what?  I like that, I like seeing them having fun, but that’s why the comic made me chuckle just like Dave’s suggestion made me laugh even though I have never been sent a picture of a penis.

Clearly I have the luxury of not feeling any negative implication to the comic because the sort of attitude that Amanda and others have taken from it never affects my life—that’s the male privilege.  But in all sincerity, when I read that comic my reaction was not, “look at these dumb bitches always making everything about themselves, how silly and vain,” I thought, “that’s kind of true, my women friends do take a lot of pictures of themselves,” fully aware that my tiny group of facebook friends are not remotely representative of American society, much less world society.  I really didn’t take anything negative from it until I read the context in which it was used.  Clearly the Reddit people intended it as an insult, but separate the comic from that environment, and I didn’t read it as being particularly malicious.

To be clear, my intent is not to dismiss Amanda and others’ interpretation, I think you’re 100% correct given the way it was used, but Dave’s post made me laugh, and then I started considering my reaction to the original comic.  I really don’t think it’s necessary to view women as shit in order to chuckle at the comic, though perhaps the vast majority of men who enjoyed the comic do hold that opinion of women.

Comment #303: doubtthat  on  12/29  at  02:39 PM

I guess I’m just annoyed at the idea that no belief in deity = enlightened progressive.

Indeed. I certainly see no logical reason for an atheist not to be progressive, but conservatism and bigotry aren’t exactly about logic no matter what your prime mover is. And since I’ve known homophobic atheists, racist atheists, and sexist atheists, I can’t harbor any illusions about it, despite being atheist myself.

Comment #304: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  03:18 PM

doubtthat—If the joke was just a stand alone comic or something, this blog post would not exist. Where the joke was placed it was clearly about the girl, implying that she posted the pic in order to get all that “attention”. Laughing at it context free probably means that you have in mind the image of those teenagers who take a billion cell phone shots of their faces or whatever and you don’t think all women are like that. The poster of this joke saw a girl being harassed because she posted a picture and that brought to mind this comic about women and their attention seeking ways. Context is everything.

Also, Amanda wasnt writing about the joke per se, she was using it as a representative of the nasty thread.

Comment #305: alysia  on  12/29  at  03:21 PM

Our issue is men who interrupt women, men who demand women’s attention, men who can’t be bothered to not annoy the women to whom they’re talking.
If I’m reading, some guy deciding that my attention belongs on him instead of the book and interrupting me to hit on me or ask inane questions, is NOT just talking to me. If I keep turning my attention back to the book, or saying “excuse me,” or otherwise indicating the conversation is not my cup of tea, him continuing to yap at me is NOT just talking to me.
If I can’t read my fucking book in peace without having to divert my attention toward repeated requests to be left alone, then I am being harassed.
Not to criminalize talking to someone, but at the very least it ought to be a mutually consensual exchange.

I agree with all of that. I was just asking Miguel what he meant by an “aggressive sexual culture” that disadvantages shy guys.

 

Comment #306: Jon S  on  12/29  at  03:28 PM

@Comment #306: alysia

I agree with you completely on all of that.  Maybe I don’t understand Reddit, but it looked to me like the comic was copied from somewhere else and posted in the thread.  If the poster was the author, then obviously the context is that thread and my point fails.

I saw the comic as I was scrolling down the Pandagon front page seeing what articles I haven’t read.  It caught my eye, I read it, and I chuckled.  I discovered the context by reading on, and I think you, Amanda, and other criticizing the offensiveness of the responses to that young girl are completely correct.

Comment #307: doubtthat  on  12/29  at  03:35 PM

Feminism - and generic equality, in general - is about creating an environment where more people can be happy.  That’s good for men and women, alike.  And, since people who feel safe, comfortable, and happy like to put out, it’s good news for someone even if he is taking orders exclusively from his penis.
Comment #148: Zifnab on 12/28 at 05:34 PM

The problem with this statement is, if he’s taking orders exclusively from his penis, he is by definition not treating women like human beings.  Possibly not treating men like human beings, either, though he is almost certainly treating himself like a human being.

Feminism isn’t just equality.  Feminism doesnt mean we treat men and women as equal inhuman cogs.  Feminism allows women their humanity.

Comment #308: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  03:43 PM

Indeed. I certainly see no logical reason for an atheist not to be progressive, but conservatism and bigotry aren’t exactly about logic no matter what your prime mover is. And since I’ve known homophobic atheists, racist atheists, and sexist atheists, I can’t harbor any illusions about it, despite being atheist myself.

I can’t really think of a logical reason why anyone isn’t progressive, except maybe very rich people and religious leaders; they want to hold on to their power.

But the fact is that, in this country in particular, atheism is largely a domain of well-educated, wealthy white men.  You can’t get much more privileged than that.  There’s also a pretty nasty tendency on the part of atheists to think they’re better than everyone else for not being “stupid” enough to fall for religious dogma.  (Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens* are prominent examples of that impulse.)  Combine that kind of intellectual elitism with the fact that women, poor people, Latinos, and African Americans are very religious on average, and you have a great recipe for many atheists thinking its just peachy to trample on those groups because obviously they’re not worth giving a shit about.

Comment #309: keshmeshi  on  12/29  at  04:12 PM

@Comment #304: doubtthat
I see your point; I think Marilyn Monroe was fucking funny but if someone used, say, a clip from one of her movies to participate in a dumb-blonde-joke pile-on the context would make it not-okay with me. But personally I thought the cartoon wasn’t neutral to begin with: the smile is kinda obnoxious, the face hides the object (which references women being illogical, vain, unable to perform functional tasks due to being female), the “male” side is presented as logical and neutral while the “female” is aberrant and impractical. The whole “female things are inferior” attitude is another layer for me before context even enters into it. If you don’t see any of those negatives, then whatever, you don’t see them. Nothing wrong with that but a significant number of people here are pointing them out, and that matters. It’s like someone I know who thought the song “Let’s get physical,” was about aerobics, but I think the fact that most people think it’s about sex is more significant.

@KingElvis I hope you’re not implying that no one has addressed gender segregation since you brought it up because the post itself is about overcoming gender segregation, pointing out that harassment turns public space into male space. When you make male and female spaces in a patriarchy the guys get the worthwhile spaces and the women get the leftovers. Single-sex education might be an interesting intellectual proposal for you but from my extensive experience with it the leftovers situation holds true. In my hometown the top-rated state-of-the-art girl’s school was constantly on the verge of bankruptcy, pinching pennies everywhere it could, while the similar boy’s school looked like a freaking college campus. So whenever I wanted to do an extracurricular thing I had to enter the boy’s space: orchestra, arts, etc. Providing a safe or segregated space for women and girls can be a huge freaking relief and allow for all sorts of growth and exploration but here’s the problem: give women in India their own safe traincar, and the rest of the train is now for men. Assign women to “rule” the sphere of domesticity, the rest of the entire world is now manspace. Provide a safe daytime environment for women to travel in, the nighttime belongs to men. Make a special lady-friendly sub-reddit for ladies (and others who appreciate such a space) and the enitre rest of reddit is now man-space, where women “should have known” not to go.

Comment #310: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/29  at  04:24 PM

Atheism is depressingly popular with libertarians, white supremacists, and MRAs. Just goes to show that your opinion about the big guy(s) in the sky is not the most important part of your worldview.

Comment #311: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  04:25 PM

Amanda Marcotte: “R. Stanton, I hope you’re really not suggesting that my extensive experience with sexist male discomfort with women reading is a figment of my imagination.”

Not at all.  Just wanted to make sure I was reading you right.  Sorry I asked.

Comment #312: R. Stanton Scott  on  12/29  at  04:28 PM

#294 Alysia

But is femininity more genuine? Lipstick, girdles and wigs are all accoutrement that is essentially theatrical. So does femininity also not ‘really’ exist. If femininity is ‘genuine’ and masculinity is not, that would put men in a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ Catch 22.

And for rhetorical purposes, it puts the fairer sex in the catbird seat, because whomever offends can be both pilloried for being ‘effeminate’ AKA ‘insecure about his masculinity’ AND as an example of typical masculine boorishness.

Makes we want to say something pithy, like “(Men) can’t win. Believe me.”

Comment #313: KingElvis  on  12/29  at  04:55 PM

No, femininity is also an act. duh.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

Comment #314: alysia  on  12/29  at  05:00 PM

Funky Horns is either lying about being a comedy writer or incompetent about being a comedy writer.  That much is obvious because of an obvious difference in the cartoon versus the picture.

In the picture, the girl is showing the book clearly, with her face in the shot.  In the cartoon, the girl’s face is blocking the object.  Put on your thinking pants, Funky.  They didn’t need to label an object ‘object.’  We could tell that already.  Why did they label the object?  Think think think!  Come on!  With your degree in Professional Comedy Writerism modified with Evo Psych Sexism, you have to be able to figure out a reason why the artist did that.

Oh, if you can’t figure out, I’ll tell you.  It was to show that in the male picture you can tell what the ‘object’ is because of the title, and in the female picture, you can’t.  The ‘female’ didn’t care about the object at all, the cartoonist is saying.  She just wanted attention on her face!  The joke isn’t just that women post more pictures with their face on it, and gently humorous.  It’s that men want to focus on the object, and women want to focus on themselves. 

In the context of that page, it means that she got exactly what she wanted when she posted.  Of course, since she did the opposite, clearly showing the book while the men ignored the object and focused on her, it would seem that the cartoon is not the ‘humorous true observation’ that you seem to think it is.

I mean, I hate to break this to a Really And For True Professional Comedy Writer who just happened to remember his lifelong career the moment Amanda reminded him of her actual, provable credentials, but - you seem to have not understood the comedy or the sexism.  Perhaps it is time to go to your Comedy Writing Bosses Who, Yes, Pay You To Write Comedy, Because You’re Absolutely a Professional Comedy Writer and ask them to give you a few pointers.

The sexism you seem to have covered pretty well in subsequent posts.  Good for you.

Comment #315: mildred  on  12/29  at  05:18 PM

Yes. But the point is, they HAVE a code to stray from.

Yes, but that code explicitly lionizes brutalizing women, children, and outsiders.  So there isn’t a lot of help there.

 

Comment #316: Punditus Maximus  on  12/29  at  05:24 PM

Actually, Amanda, my expertise comes from being a professional comedy writer my entire adult life.

Although, I’ll admit that I’ve never called myself (or heard another pro writer refer to herself) as a “humorist.”. So you’ve got me there.


@73 FH revealed himself to be a complete idiot re his supposed profession.  Humorist has been in use to mean a person subject to whims since mid-1500, then as a whimsical person and now most commonly as a person specializing in humor, as in for at least a century as Mark Twain (aka S. Clemens for FH) was often described as such.  Check out the back blurb of any decent comedic publication and you are likely to find it at least once.  Humorist has become associated with people who write humor to be read, not to be spouted on stage or screen (where the timing of the delivery is as much key as the writing), so perhaps this ignorance might be justified amoung the general populous, but not for a professional writer.
My understanding of the need for a decent and diverse writers’ room for screen comedy was so jokes could be reviewed for just the sort of stupidity FH keeps repeating is just a good joke we are to stupid or sensative to understand.

Comment #317: helen w. h.  on  12/29  at  05:24 PM

But is femininity more genuine? Lipstick, girdles and wigs are all accoutrement that is essentially theatrical. So does femininity also not ‘really’ exist.

For somebody who comments on this blog a fair amount, you sure do seem to have slept through Feminism 101 (as alysia intimated in #315). Masculinity and femininity are both social constructs, and equally so. Nobody here is saying that feminine behavior is superior; but they are saying that particular behaviors that get coded feminine (for whatever reason) are likely to be demonized for that reason alone.

Makes we want to say something pithy, like “(Men) can’t win. Believe me.”

Ah, the old “I can do that too!” trick where you take a feminist sentiment, replace “women” with “men,” and pretend you’ve proved some kind of point. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but men are winning.

Comment #318: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  05:30 PM

And that is what I feel reading these comments.  Rage.  It takes my breath away.

And if I were ever to give full voice to the thoughts and feelings this rage causes within me, I’d be called hysterical, crazy, the usual.

But will any white man ever feel this rage?  This killing rage?

I feel the same thing when I read wingnuts justifying bombing and torturing non-Americans because they are not American.  And I feel it because I am not American.

So we don’t feel The Rage over the same things; but we do feel The Rage.  And your version of The Rage is valid.

Comment #319: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/29  at  05:33 PM

“Nope.  Punching up is okay.  Punching down isn’t.  Even if you think women are oppressing you.”

So a man making a joke about a woman is punching down?  Do you really believe that?  If so, that’s sad.  I feel very comfortable making jokes about women in front of women, because I don’t think I’m reaching down to do it.

Honestly, if I had said that sentence, it would be more evidence of my sexism. 

Fatman:

“You said that if you were to discover that you were behaving in a sexist manner that you would want to stop.  How do you determine if you are behaving in a sexist manner?  Do you rely solely on your own understanding of sexism?”

Yes.  You have to!  How else do you approach art – and writing (or drawing) comedy is art.  If one person tells you they’re offended, it doesn’t mean the joke is objectively offensive.  It means that one person took offense.  Just like if one person didn’t laugh, it doesn’t mean it’s not funny.

That’s what amusing (frustrating?) about Amanda’s post.  She didn’t like the comic.  (Her right, but even her lofty position as a humorist doesn’t make it objective fact.)  But then she went beyond not liking it to drawing numerous inferences about the person making it.  Based on a two panel comic that basically says “women like to take and post pictures of themselves.”

That’s her right, too, but I disagree.  I’m not telling her to shut the fuck up.  I’m disagreeing with her, and I’m not giving a laundry list of her deep psychological flaws when I’m doing so.

“Oh good! Funky Horns is back! Maybe I can get this professional comedy writer to approve of my new, improved White Guy jokes.
http://kajedheat.tumblr.com/post/14975024792/white-guy-jokes”

Stick to your day job.

Comment #320: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  07:09 PM

I feel very comfortable making jokes about women in front of women, because I don’t think I’m reaching down to do it.

Nope. Sadly, as poor a “humor writer” as you are and as irritating and (deliberately?) obtuse as you’ve shown yourself to be on this thread, you are still accorded higher status in our culture than the brilliant, funny, and kind (fr’example) Mindy Kaling, on account of the peen.

Sorry to bust your bubble. But this is why only d-bags laugh at your “jokes.”

Comment #321: Well, what?  on  12/29  at  07:24 PM

  Just like if one person didn’t laugh, it doesn’t mean it’s not funny.

So by your logic, if hundreds of people (like, oh, on this thread?) say it’s not funny, then…where are we? If even one single person laughs it’s funny? If more than 5?

And I still maintain that if only douchebags find you funny…well whoop-de-doo, you’re funny to douchebags. If that flips your skirt then I guess rock on.

Elsewhere, though, please.

Comment #322: Well, what?  on  12/29  at  07:26 PM

But then she went beyond not liking it to drawing numerous inferences about the person making it.  Based on a two panel comic that basically says “women like to take and post pictures of themselves.”

And again, you do not seem to understand.  The point of the comic, quite clearly, isn’t that ‘women like to take and post pictures of themselves.’  Look at the comic.  The man’s pictures *shows* the object.  It’s even labeled ‘object’.  The women’s picture *obscures* the object. 

The point of the comic is not, and try to focus on this, Funky Horns, is *not* saying “Women like to take and post pictures of themselves.”  The point of the comic is “Men focus on the object.  Women pretend to focus on the object but instead shift focus on themselves.”  That most definitely does say something about the person who created the comic.

Secondly, and this is important.  The point of the comic is contradicted by the very page it’s posted on.  Take a look at the actual picture.  The girl is not obscuring the object with her face.  She actually wants to talk about the object.  The men, on the other hand, want to talk about the woman, not the object.

I can only hope you have managed to follow me so far. 

So first we have irony in the fact that the comic, which is supposed to reveal a humorous truth about the sexes, is shown to be wrong by what’s going on.  The girl doesn’t want to talk about herself.  The men want to talk about her. 

And here we have the second irony of a ‘professional comedy writer,’ lecturing people with actual demonstrable comedy credentials on what’s funny, entirely missing the comedic point that the comic was trying to make, and then missing the comedic irony of that entire situation.

Comment #323: mildred  on  12/29  at  07:39 PM

“Nope. Sadly, as poor a “humor writer” as you are and as irritating and (deliberately?) obtuse as you’ve shown yourself to be on this thread, you are still accorded higher status in our culture than the brilliant, funny, and kind (fr’example) Mindy Kaling, on account of the peen.”

“Our culture?”  What’s “our culture?”  I’m certainly not accorded higher status than great women comedy writers like Tina Fey or Kristen Wiig.  Or scores of other writers whose names you wouldn’t know.  Are you insisting that women have lower status so you can keep your victim status? 

I don’t believe women are inferior to men.  I think I can make jokes about them, and they can make jokes about them, and they can make jokes about me.  No matter how many times you insist that they aren’t my equal.

“So by your logic, if hundreds of people (like, oh, on this thread?) say it’s not funny, then…where are we? If even one single person laughs it’s funny? If more than 5?”

Well, if only one single person laughed at my jokes, I’d look for a new line of work.  But it wouldn’t be proof I wasn’t funny.

An artist can’t (or at least, shouldn’t) be true to anyone but himself, or the art suffers.  IMHO.

Comment #324: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  07:42 PM

But the point is, they HAVE a code to stray from.

Yes, but that code explicitly lionizes brutalizing women, children, and outsiders.  So there isn’t a lot of help there.

That’s part of my disappointment with the “face” of most of the larger atheist organizations.  I’d think that starting from zero instead of a negative, and then applying rational thought, there would be recognition of women’s humanity.  But, atheism is just a lack of belief in any gods; skepticism often goes along with that but it’s not required.  And considering the widespread belief in all cultures that women aren’t quite people, we’re not really starting from zero, but just from less of a negative.  So while it’s true religious people may have to stray from their official code in order to behave morally, it doesn’t mean that atheists will necessarily behave morally; we still have our cultural norms that we have to break from.

the same sense of licentious freedom they get from negation of a higher authority might be expressed in this sense of erotic license.

WTF is up with 1) calling rape jokes “erotic license”?  They’re not unrestrained sexuality (which your wording suggests is a terrible evil), they’re hatred of women.  2) assuming that everyone without a religion doesn’t have a moral code?  3) thinking that the “moral” code of religions that assume men’s authority, women’s subjugation, and god’s approval when murdering the enemy tribe is a “moral” code instead of an immoral one?

Comment #325: Nimravid  on  12/29  at  07:46 PM

“The point of the comic is not, and try to focus on this, Funky Horns, is *not* saying “Women like to take and post pictures of themselves.”  The point of the comic is “Men focus on the object.  Women pretend to focus on the object but instead shift focus on themselves.”  That most definitely does say something about the person who created the comic.”

It’s remarkable the truths you can pull out of those two frames. 

Actually, here’s the point of the comic:  men are status obsessed, and post pictures of their possessions to elevate their own worth in relation to others.  Just like a man who buys a sports car or a big house - penis substitutes, because men are competitive by nature.  The only reason you’d post a picture of your possession by itself is to brag and make others feel bad about what they don’t have. 

It’s an anti-man comic, posted to show the men attacking that poor girl that they’re shallow creatures who haven’t sublimated their baser instincts. 

Do I really believe that?  No.  But it’s a perfectly valid interpretation.  And it’s very silly to think that you hold objective truth in your hand, and I need to be talked down to because I don’t agree with you.

Comment #326: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  07:50 PM

“Everything everything everything is subjective.”

Ah, the last refuge of a person who can’t admit he’s wrong.  So far comedy has been subjective.  Audience reception has been subjective.  Sexism is subjective.  Writing and animation and art are subjective.  And not just slightly subjective but endlessly so.  If most people, five people, no people laugh, it’s just as much comedy as anything else.  It’s worth ignoring meaning, ignoring communication, ignoring experience, ignoring everything.  It’s worth being the fuzzy-headed guy who can’t take an appraising look at anything - just as long as no one could ever, ever prove that you’re wrong.  So tuck yourself into bed tonight and smile and say that no matter what anyone says, subjectively you could still be right about everything. 

The sad thing is, that doesn’t stop you from being wrong.  Which you are.  Clearly.

Comment #327: mildred  on  12/29  at  08:01 PM

Except there’s no sign the object in the comic is a possession. It’s labeled “object”, not “possession”, and the comic’s title says “something you want to show everyone”, not “your stuff”. Whereas there is no ambiguity to the fact that the woman is obscuring the object in the “female” frame, which can mean two things : that what she wants to show everyone is her face, or that she wants to show the object but failed in the attempt because she put too much focus on her face.

Sure, anyone can come up with fanciful interpretations of the comic. But there is also a straightforward interpretation. Yours is not it.

Comment #328: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  08:05 PM

Caravelle - thanks for bouying up the logic of this thread, but I fear you’re wasting your time.  He’s gone deep.  “Everything *could* be something else, and so it’s just arrogant to judge one seemingly correct interpretation over some other interpretation that not even I believe is true!”  La!  Subjectivity!

To be honest, I should have seen it when he started saying, “She shouldn’t be shocked at that reaction,” like the only possible reaction to a picture of a fifteen-year-old who was happy that her mother overcame a religious difference to give her a Christmas present was a barrage of guys making rape threats and breaking the law to solicit nude pictures of her. 

Anything that makes him Not Wrong is what he’ll cling to, even in the face of common sense, intellectual honesty, or basic understanding.

Comment #329: mildred  on  12/29  at  08:12 PM

Funky Horns, you say that you rely solely on your own understanding of sexism.  Do you feel that it is possible for you to be wrong about whether or not something is sexist?

Comment #330: Fatman  on  12/29  at  08:20 PM

Ah, mine is a fanciful interpretation.  But her saying “bracin’ mah anus” means that she’s afraid she’s going to shit herself from the comments she’s about to get, and is trying to clench her ass to keep the shit from spraying out.

Subjectivity.  It’s a wonderful thing, and only the other side is guilty of it.  Right, keepers of the One Truth?

Comment #331: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  08:23 PM

“Funky Horns, you say that you rely solely on your own understanding of sexism.  Do you feel that it is possible for you to be wrong about whether or not something is sexist?”

Of course.  And if I say something truly sexist, I’ll suffer the consequences.  That’s the risk that those of us who use language as the tools of our trade run.

Here’s a wonderful, wonderful Carlin bit that says everything I’m trying to say much more clearly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2a5-RrwWZ8

Please, stick with it.  It’s remarkable.

Comment #332: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  08:29 PM

Ah, mine is a fanciful interpretation.

I do not frequent 4chan or Reddit, I have no opinion on what “bracin’ mah anus” actually connotes or what it could mistakenly be thought to connote by reasonable people.

And your interpretation of the comic as referring to possessions is indeed orders of magnitude more fanciful than the interpretation offered by others; I thought I explained my reasoning behind that assessment in sufficient detail so I don’t understand why you would go into non-sequiturs instead of addressing the arguments I made.

Comment #333: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  08:34 PM

Who is the arbiter of what is “truly” sexist?  Cause we are all telling you that your contribution to this thread so far has been just that and explaining to you in great detail why we think so.  You say you are not sexist because… you say so.

Comment #334: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/29  at  08:39 PM

You make some what I consider some unprovable assumptions - it’s not meant to be a possession, it’s an object.  Her obscuring part of the object is commentary, and not just the most effective framing to sell the joke.

You’re guessing at the artist’s intent, and I think you’re reading things into the comic that aren’t there.

I can’t prove that.  Neither can you.

But it’s probably not surprising that you feel that your interpretation is the logical one, and my not agreeing with you means I’m stupid or sexist or whatever.  That’s the basis of most arguments, isn’t it?  I’m not wrong, so you’re dumb.

I’m arguing for being open to more than one interpretation.

Comment #335: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  08:46 PM

“Who is the arbiter of what is “truly” sexist?”

Excellent question!

“Cause we are all telling you that your contribution to this thread so far has been just that”

Oh, you weren’t really asking.  You were saying that you are.

Got it.

Comment #336: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  08:51 PM

Well, it seems that there cannot be an absolute arbiter of what is truly sexist.  There is no vantage point outside of human interaction from which such determinations can be made.  We can only rely on people with experience trying to achieve consensus.  Funky Horns, do you feel that you are in a better position to judge what is sexist towards women than the women that have commented here?  If so, why?  If not, why not listen to them?

Comment #337: Fatman  on  12/29  at  09:01 PM

And if I were ever to give full voice to the thoughts and feelings this rage causes within me, I’d be called hysterical, crazy, the usual.
But will any white man ever feel this rage?  This killing rage?

Well there’s us jews.

 

Comment #338: Jon S  on  12/29  at  09:02 PM

“Funky Horns, do you feel that you are in a better position to judge what is sexist towards women than the women that have commented here?  If so, why?  If not, why not listen to them?”

I wouldn’t trust any person who substitutes a group’s judgement for their own judgement.  I certainly am educated all the time, I have new experiences, and those things adjust my viewpoint.  If the people in this thread had made convincing arguments, I certainly could change the way I thought.  In my opinion, they haven’t.  On this issue.

To bring the thread back around - I grew up going to church.  My family was religious.  I lived in a very religious small town.  I talked to the pastors at my church.  I certainly listened to those people’s arguments, but never replaced my judgement with theirs on religious issues.

I even ran into the same debate tactics - my questions and POV were born of ignorance.  I didn’t believe in god because I didn’t understand.  They were spelling it out very clearly.  It was my fault I didn’t believe.

Comment #339: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  09:12 PM

I can’t prove that.  Neither can you.

Yes, it’s all just a meaningless academic exercise to you. And yet you keep coming back and derailing this thread in an attempt to be right about something for once.

Comment #340: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  09:12 PM

You make some what I consider some unprovable assumptions - it’s not meant to be a possession, it’s an object.  Her obscuring part of the object is commentary, and not just the most effective framing to sell the joke.

I make no such assumption. Again, you are not paying attention to what other people are saying.

The “Men love possessions” interpretation requires that the “object” in the picture be the photographer’s possession. There is no evidence for this. It could be, which is why the interpretation is “fanciful” and not “completely wrong”, but there is no evidence for it; the interpretation is not straightforward, it requires an assumption that is not made explicit in the source material.

The “Women are vain” interpretation implies that the woman be prioritizing her own appearance, possibly over other more important things, which requires that the woman’s image be prominent, possibly at the expense of other things such as the “object” she’s purportedly trying to show everyone. That is what the comic indeed shows. No additional assumptions are required. This interpretation is thus much more straightforward than the previous one. (the “orders of magnitude” comes from the fact that no other interpretation is as straightforward as that one, which is another story)

But it’s probably not surprising that you feel that your interpretation is the logical one, and my not agreeing with you means I’m stupid or sexist or whatever.  That’s the basis of most arguments, isn’t it?  I’m not wrong, so you’re dumb.

You’re not dumb because you’re wrong. You’re dumb because you’ve been responding to my detailed, as-well-thought-out-as-I-could-manage arguments with non-sequiturs, blatant mischaracterizations of what I said, derailing tactics and self-pity.

Even that doesn’t make you “dumb” though; I was just borrowing your terminology. It just makes you a very poor ambassador for your own position.

I’m arguing for being open to more than one interpretation.

... sorry, I forgot “disingenuous backtracking” in the preceding list. Your comments have argued for much more than “being open to more than one interpretation”. They have argued that one interpretation in particular has no more merit than any other random interpretation you could come up with, and they did this via the even stronger and more extraordinary claim that all interpretations are equivalent by any metric.

Comment #341: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  09:20 PM

Okay, lets discuss the comic and our various reactions to it and perhaps I can convince you that it is sexist.  Now when you looked at this you thought “some women like to post pictures of themselves, so will make up excuses to do so.”  You seemed not to notice the fact that the object could be seen in the panel labeled male but not in the panel labeled female.  Why do you think that this fact is unimportant when trying to understand the meaning of the comic?

Comment #342: Fatman  on  12/29  at  09:36 PM

A bit more on this though :

Her obscuring part of the object is commentary, and not just the most effective framing to sell the joke.

By what measure of “effective” is a framing that obscures half of an object (out of a total of two objects in the frame) the “most effective framing to sell the joke”, unless the obscuring is itself part of the joke ? There are many ways to arrange a woman’s face and an object inside a frame in a way that obscures neither (heck, the original reddit poster showed one example), and if one had to obscure the other one it would be just as logical to put the purported focus of the picture (the object) in the foreground.

It could be a framing decision unrelated to the joke - but that requires making additional assumptions about the constraints the author of the comic was under. So again: not the most straightforward interpretation.

Comment #343: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  09:38 PM

They have argued that one interpretation in particular has no more merit than any other random interpretation you could come up with, and they did this via the even stronger and more extraordinary claim that all interpretations are equivalent by any metric.

That’s the only thing he’s got left, Caravalle.  People have bested him in every positive defense.  They’ve shown that he didn’t get the point of the picture.  They’ve shown that a fifteen year old shouldn’t ‘expect’ rape threats on a bulletin board.  They’ve shown that sexism is better judged by the people who it is directed against, not the people who use it as a ‘joke.’  They’ve shown that humor which doesn’t find an audience isn’t just ‘misunderstood,’ it’s bad.  They’ve shown that laughing at sexist humor isn’t some ‘un-PC’ outsider mark, it’s going along with the status quo.  You’ve shown that any quick look at the picture shows that his admittedly bullshit explanation is bullshit, and so not all interpretations are equal.  (And kudos for that, by the way.)

But that can’t be.  Not for him.

The only thing he can take refuge in is saying ‘You’re all just closed-minded.  Every thought and action is just as good as any other, and so blatant intellectual dishonesty and willful ignorance are just as as a clear-eyed look at what people are trying to communicate.  It’s all the same and that means that I.  AM NOT.  WRONG.’

Anything but him being wrong.  Anything.

Comment #344: mildred  on  12/29  at  09:42 PM

Caravelle:  I never said all interpretations are equivalent.  Honestly, I don’t think you’re far off in your basic read.  I’ve made no secret that I think this joke is meant to make people think “oh yeah, women do post a lot more pictures of themselves than men do.”  It’s a joke of recognition.

Is it because women are more social?  More vain?  More needing of approval from men?  More needing of approval from women?  I don’t know.  And I doubt the artist put all that much thought into it when he drew the picture.  He probably has seen the same thing I have:  women friends on social networks who post a lot more pictures of themselves than men do.  And he made a joke about it.

I think it’s the deconstruction of his motives that gets into unsupportable theory time - in Amanda’s original post, and in yours.  Sometimes a woman’s in front of an object because she thinks she’s more important than the object.  Sometimes a woman’s in front of an object because the artist thinks it looks better.  In short, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

(I hope someone makes a short cigar joke!)

And before this tired tactic gets pulled out:  I can not prove that women post more pictures of themselves than men.  But if it’s enough people’s belief based on their experiences, the joke works.

I got it.  It’s a joke.  On average, women post more pictures of themselves!  They also spend more time obsessing over weddings than men do!  And hey, men like guns more than women!  And men don’t like talking about their feelings!

These perceived gender differences are the basis of some comedy.  It’s horrible, but true.

Comment #345: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  09:44 PM

and they did this via the even stronger and more extraordinary claim that all interpretations are equivalent by any metric.

This seems to be a common mansplaining tactic. Amanda’s even discussed it before. “Yeah well, you may have your facts and analyses about rape culture, but there’s no objective truth anyway, so take that.” This typically initiates a self-imposed reductio ad absurdum in which the mansplainer eventually descends into a cross between nihilism and a high schooler’s understanding of postmodernism.

Comment #346: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  09:46 PM

These perceived gender differences are the basis of some comedy.

Nobody’s disputing that. But your “just a joke” explanation kind of falls apart given that the person who posted the comic in the reddit thread clearly found it meaningful in the context of a girl being verbally assaulted by a horde of creeps.

These “perceived gender differences” aren’t innocent and trifling. They have consequences. And one of those consequences is that when a girl experiences what she experienced in that reddit thread, she gets blamed for it, and the people verbally assaulting her suffer no consequences. In the context of the reddit thread, the comic isn’t just a joke, it’s an accusation. Against the girl. Who is being threatened with rape.

Comment #347: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  09:52 PM

“You seemed not to notice the fact that the object could be seen in the panel labeled male but not in the panel labeled female.  Why do you think that this fact is unimportant when trying to understand the meaning of the comic?”

If I were selling that joke, I would have drawn the second frame the exact same way.  Not because of all the sexist interpretations given, but for this reason:

The first frame establishes the object.  It shows the word “object” clearly.  We have that information in our head.  Now, in the second frame, we don’t need to see the whole object or read the word “object” to know exactly what it is.  By keeping it the same size and in the same position, we know that it hasn’t changed.

There is one additional piece of information in the second frame, the punchline to the joke:  the woman’s face.  If we keep the object the same size and in the same position, the only way to put in her entire face would be to put it behind the object, and make it smaller than the object. 

By doing that, the object would still be the dominant piece of information in the frame.  But that’s not how jokes are constructed - you don’t emphasize the set up line again and hide the punchline. 

The artist kept enough of the object so we would understand it’s there, and put the woman’s face in the prominent position to sell the joke.

That’s my no bullshit answer on why it was drawn that way. 

So yes, I believe that the fact that her face is front and center is unimportant to the reading of the joke.

Comment #348: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  09:54 PM

“Nobody’s disputing that. But your “just a joke” explanation kind of falls apart given that the person who posted the comic in the reddit thread clearly found it meaningful in the context of a girl being verbally assaulted by a horde of creeps.”

Or he found it meaningful in the context of a girl posting a picture of herself holding a book.

I know, that’s a far fetched, fanciful explanation.  It’s a much more likely explanation that it was a commentary on threats of rape - being that it had nothing to do with rape whatsoever.  (Or is that where the rest of the object was?  In the anus that she had insufficiently braced?)

Comment #349: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  09:58 PM

The pertinent question you’re missing out on here, Funky Horns, is, if the guy who posted the comic was in the mood to point fingers, why did he point it at the girl who was already under assault from a bunch of other dudes? If you’re looking at a fight between a single girl and a bunch of rape-happy dudes, and you decide to point and laugh at the girl, you’re taking the dudes’ side. If anybody in that thread deserved derision, it was the dudes, but instead he derided the girl.

And here we are on Pandagon discussing the cultural forces that make this happen (and it happens a lot, not just in one reddit thread). You seem to have missed that boat by a mile, so I recommend you get back to your day job of writing trite jokes about how women are always bitching about the toilet seat being up.

Comment #350: Triplanetary  on  12/29  at  10:04 PM

I never said all interpretations are equivalent.

Yeah, that’s called a “summary”. It’s what all of your recent comments have been implying, and if you didn’t intend them to maybe you should have thought more carefully about all that stuff you said about “subjectivity” and not being able to “prove” things.

I’ve made no secret that I think this joke is meant to make people think “oh yeah, women do post a lot more pictures of themselves than men do.”

And people here have made no secret that they think this joke goes a bit further than that. And have given arguments why. You have yet to address those, other than your claim that the woman’s face obscuring the object is some accident of composition; I’ve already explained why that isn’t satisfactory.

Sometimes a woman’s in front of an object because the artist thinks it looks better.

And that’s even less satisfactory, because you’re just pushing the problem back a step. Why does the artist think it looks better? Note that the creative process isn’t always conscious, so the artist’s conscious intent isn’t even necessarily relevant.

So again, if the woman obscuring the object isn’t part of the joke, what other reason is there for it to “look better” that way? I can think of a few reasons it could look worse (one object is obscured, it’s the object supposedly being photographed…) but I don’t see a reason it could look better; as far as I can tell the only way that framing could be unrelated to the joke is by random happenstance, and as random outcomes go it isn’t particularly likely. Or as I said in my previous comment the person making the comic could have been under some kind of constraint such as having only a few specific pictures to use.

So unless there’s a reason I missed that the woman’s head blocking the object is good composition, interpreting it as being unrelated to the joke requires assuming an unlikely random outcome happened, or that the author was under some kind of unexpected constraint.

Comment #351: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  10:04 PM

Caravelle:  I think we cross posted.  I answered your question at length above.

Comment #352: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  10:07 PM

@Caravelle:

Because, you see, when the artist drew the first frame he had no idea of what might be in the second frame, and then when the second frame just happened to have a girl/woman’s face as the main element, it was impossible to go back and revise the composition of the first frame slightly, so that the object would be less obscured. Because cartoons posted on the internet have as their first draft intaglio carvings on tungsten carbide, and cannot be changed in even the tiniest way once set to pixels.

As usual, it’s amazing how important it is to someone Sensible to prove to a bunch of unreasonable, unimportant people that their ideas are wrong.

Comment #353: paul  on  12/29  at  10:17 PM

Ah, mine is a fanciful interpretation.  But her saying “bracin’ mah anus” means that she’s afraid she’s going to shit herself from the comments she’s about to get, and is trying to clench her ass to keep the shit from spraying out.
Comment #332: Funky Horns on 12/29 at 08:23 PM

Actually, her saying “bracin’ mah anus” indicates she felt like she could play along like any of the other participants in the reddit.  That she could make an in-joke like anyone else and others would play with her the way they play with others.  That maybe she’d get some mean comments but they’d be like the mean comments any other newbie might get.

She found out that, no, she can’t be one of the guys.  She has to be one of the girls, and when she says something that everyone else says, when she does something that everyone else does, she will not be treated the same.

I got it.  It’s a joke.  On average, women post more pictures of themselves!  They also spend more time obsessing over weddings than men do!  And hey, men like guns more than women!  And men don’t like talking about their feelings!

Funny, most men I know do like talking about their feelings.  They talk all the time about their anger, their disappointment, their disgust, their enthusiasm, their happiness.  They don’t like talking about anyone else’s feelings, sometimes.

And while I normally don’t think a lot about guns, I have been thinking about the 2 by 4 to the face a lot while reading about this event.

These perceived gender differences are the basis of some comedy.  It’s horrible, but true.
Comment #346: Funky Horns on 12/29 at 09:44 PM

Oh gosh, you said perceived! 

Maybe you’re pretending to have known *all along* that these differences aren’t real, or essential, or might be based in social conditioning and inequity rather than women’s inferiority.  Shift, shift, shift.  Hope no one notices.

You’re a relatively smart guy, or at least quick-witted, but that won’t save you here.  The feminists here are (a) at least as smart as you and (b) have heard your bullshit a hundred times before.  What to you seems a brilliant save is instead just another step in a predictable dance.

Comment #354: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  10:18 PM

“In actuality, this stuff matters. When you step into a male-dominated space where men feel free to dogpile you in an effort to run you off—-even if it’s a virtual space—-you learn really quickly that merely by being female, you are somehow controversial. That feeling sticks with you.”

Oh geeze, this.  In my new job, where the assumption is, I can’t know whit about running the office network, social, hardware or otherwise, because you know, I’m a (52 year old) girl.
Fuckers.

Comment #355: Constantia  on  12/29  at  10:20 PM

Hey!  I just looked up your first comment!

“I think it’s just a joke, the basis of which is “some women like to post pictures of themselves, so will make up excuses to do so.” 

And here’s my comment:

“The point of the comic is not, and try to focus on this, Funky Horns, is *not* saying “Women like to take and post pictures of themselves.”  The point of the comic is “Men focus on the object.  Women pretend to focus on the object but instead shift focus on themselves.”  That most definitely does say something about the person who created the comic.”

Wow!  They look remarkably similar!  The only difference is I point out that that’s sexist!  You know, her making up an excuse to actually post a picture of herself, and that being ‘what women do.’

What happens then?  Suddenly you think it’s a different joke.

“Women like to take and post pictures of themselves.

That’s my no bullshit answer on why it was drawn that way.
So yes, I believe that the fact that her face is front and center is unimportant to the reading of the joke.

Wow.  You’ve managed to make thing so subjective that not even you can keep up with your own bullshit.

For crying out loud.  You’ve said what you actually think the joke means.  You’ve said it in the very first panel of the post.  The only one you’re convincing is yourself.

Comment #356: mildred  on  12/29  at  10:21 PM

“The feminists here are (a) at least as smart as you”

Then I guess I won’t be punching down if I make a joke at their expense.

Comment #357: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  10:21 PM

Sorry, posted that and then saw you posted an actual response about the composition in the meantime. Good for you. I still disagree though.

For one thing, the object in the first frame takes up a fairly small portion of the shot, whereas the woman’s face in the second takes up half the picture. This is disproportionate : even taking into account that a woman’s face is bigger than the object, the way most people take a picture of themselves with an object has them both in the same plane (or the object in front, but I agree with your reasons why this wouldn’t work here), and if that had been done here, or if the woman’s face was even a bit less in the foreground it wouldn’t take up as much space and wouldn’t be as over-emphasized compared to the object as it is.

Also, the object isn’t in the same position in both pictures. In the male version it’s slightly to the left, while in the female version it’s a bit to the right. If it had been a bit to the right in the male version or just centered, and even more to the right in the female version it wouldn’t be obscured half as much as it is.

So even accounting for the need to emphasize the woman’s face for contrast I still think she’s dramatically over-emphasized.

Also, note the picture caption isn’t about taking pictures of objects, it’s about objects you want to show everyone. That caption is more effective if the obscuring isn’t random.

Comment #358: Caravelle  on  12/29  at  10:22 PM

“The feminists here are (a) at least as smart as you”

Then I guess I won’t be punching down if I make a joke at their expense.
Comment #358: Funky Horns on 12/29 at 10:21 PM

Status isn’t intelligence.

Comment #359: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  10:54 PM

Ah, status is unmeasurable and defined as needed for rhetoric.

Comment #360: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  11:01 PM

You understand that the artist intended to place the face of the woman in the second panel in a prominent position, you understand that the joke was to saying that the person in the second panel placed more prominence on herself than on the object, you understand that the joke referred to the display of an object, you see that the object is only hinted at in the second panel, you can read that the second panel is labeled ‘female’, you saw that this was posted in response to a girl who posted a picture of a non obscured object.  What are we disagreeing about?  We may be talking at cross purposes, what is your operational definition of sexism?

Comment #361: Fatman  on  12/29  at  11:11 PM

I mean, you agree that the joke would not function at its purpose if the second panel were framed like the picture it was posted in response to, with the object (in that case the Carl Sagan book) featured prominently in the center of the field of view with the woman’s face off to the side obscuring nothing, right?

Comment #362: Fatman  on  12/29  at  11:16 PM

Any skepticism anybody might have about Funky Horns’ status as a professional comedy writer can be put to rest by the virtuosic display of comedic talent he’s shown in this thread.  My hat’s off to you, good sir.  Clearly nobody else here is fit to even carry your comedic jockstrap.  Many would take your proclamation as sad Internet Tough Guy wishful thining wankery on your part, but not me—your comedic gifts are self-evident, and if I may be so bold, truly breathtaking to behold up close and personal.

Do please keep posting here.  It’s like getting a free comedy clinic from a true grandmaster and being rather humor challenged myself I sincerely appreciate it.  Don’t ever put your light under a bushel.  And don’t let anybody say your stories aren’t cool, bro.  If you don’t tell the bros’ cool stories, who will?

Comment #363: Angry Geometer  on  12/29  at  11:16 PM

Funky Horns’ history of comedy:

Don Quixote is hilarious because Spanish people are shit!
A Modest Proposal is hilarious because Irish people are shit!
Huck Finn is hilarious because Black people are shit!

Comment #364: Angry Geometer  on  12/29  at  11:23 PM

I expect this is what we’ll see from Funky Horns if the thread gets to 800 comments:

“Look.  All we can say, without making assumptions about the cartoonist, is that he meant it as a joke to show that sometimes women sometimes appear in photographs.  That’s all.  I mean, isn’t that true?  Who here can say that women don’t appear in photos?

And if you’re not open to interpreting its being posted on that page as the cartoonist’s homage to Magritte’s Ceci N’est Pas Une Pipe, then you’re obviously someone too arrogant to hear other people’s opinions.”

Comment #365: mildred  on  12/29  at  11:26 PM

Comedy’s harder than it looks, isn’t it?  Valient attempt by all, though.

Comment #366: Funky Horns  on  12/29  at  11:34 PM

Funky at comment #820:

“The only thing we can be certain of is my ability to judge the criticism of me as not funny.”

Comment #367: mildred  on  12/29  at  11:37 PM

And if I say something truly sexist, I’ll suffer the consequences.

And force everyone to listen to me whine about it for near on 400 posts. Yeah, you’re great at suffering consequences. Not so great at learning from ‘em though.

I believe that the fact that her face is front and center is unimportant to the reading of the joke.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Oh my sweet lord baby jeebus. What do you know, when I’m drunk, how stupid you are is actually funny! I guess I now know who your “non-humorist comedy writer” audience is: people wasted on cheap wine.

 

Comment #368: Well, what?  on  12/29  at  11:42 PM

@361

I think the fact that you are here treating this topic like some sort of inconsequential debate for funsies, while the people you’re debating with are frustrated that your inane viewpoint continues to have a real negative impact on their lives, is a pretty good measure of who in this thread has been assigned social status.

Hint: those with status are the only people who can afford to treat the pic in the OP as nothing more than ha ha harmless joke, and the only people that JAQ off (“who knows what was the true intention of the image’s poster??? Who knows whether gender differences are genetic or socially constructed??? Who knows whether or not women know more about sexism than me???”) on threads about 15 year olds being deluged with creepy comments as if it’s light-hearted banter about whether cats are better than dogs.

Comment #369: Treefinger  on  12/29  at  11:46 PM

I have registered specifically to ask this:

Why is Funky still around?

Not his motives, I don’t care much about those.*

Rather, there’s discussion of decreasing misogyny on Reddit by calling people out and downvoting. To decrease misogyny in the comments of this blog, after multiple attempts at call-outage have not been met with substance, an apology, or a disappearance, what should happen? Is there a ban ability? Are there moderators? What is the proper response to misogyny in this very forum?

As a separate comment, I tried to get into the whole Reddit thing at some point, and I found myself with That Rage, and downvoting like… a mad person. It didn’t seem healthy, so I stopped. Occasionally I still do it. Bleh to Reddit.

*In fact, I am wondering is Funky is a very carefully calculated troll merrily wasting everyone’s time… but I have only recently found this blog and haven’t read many comment threads more recent than 2008 yet, so I don’t know about any recent history with Funky for and against trollitude. Furthermore, there’s some internet law about never being able to tell, so whatever.

Comment #370: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  12:16 AM

Whoa, 370 comments!?

I was going to ask if interrupting women while reading, say, in a coffee shop, was ‘a thing’, but I suspect the question will be buried in the volume.

Comment #371: Eric_RoM  on  12/30  at  12:16 AM

Comment #311: MoseyMcShuffleson

I hear your perspective on the comic.  I don’t have to deal with any negative treatment from that sort of stereotyping, so I can read it as teasing.

It’s like someone I know who thought the song “Let’s get physical,” was about aerobics, but I think the fact that most people think it’s about sex is more significant.

I have to say, that’s a dangerous metric.  Certainly in the comment threads on this blog your interpretation is the majority, but in the context of the larger society, I wouldn’t be surprised if yours was the minority view.  That, of course, says nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the opinion, but relying on the public’s view (especially in our dumb country) is generally not a great way to bolster an argument.

Comment #372: doubtthat  on  12/30  at  12:21 AM

::reads a bunch::  Ahh, ::eyeroll::  FH, Pandagon’s new attention whore.  All this pushback must be leaving him in a puddle of his own semen.

Well played.

Comment #373: Eric_RoM  on  12/30  at  12:26 AM

Eric_RoM:

Some comments about the reading:
114
118
128
164
208
299

A few particulars:
241 is “the exception that proves the rule”, to use a phrase I’m very proud of myself for finally figuring out. =p

242 (in a bit of contrast) says both men and women have interrupted.

295 is noteworthy:
“All of us women have had the experience of reading in a public space and having our attention demanded by some pushy douchebag who felt entitled to it.”

There was an entire post I just came across about women and reading, which I now can’t find, in which many comments were along the lines of “I’m SO SICK OF THIS”—- I believe this is an indication that it is, indeed, a very pervasive thing.

The thing in question is not even necessarily a guy going, “Hey, that’s a book I just read and think is totally awesome, glad to see someone else reading it,” and then a conversation happening (or not) after any “what do you think of it so far?” is met with an enthusiastic response (or not, if there was no enthusiastic response, and then the guy can go “I hope you enjoy it!” and turn away/leave without awkwardness, and probably a lot of understanding if he himself thought the book was awesome).

It is, instead, a thing about a man continuously trying to talk to a woman who is reading in a public place despite her obviously still trying to read and/or over her explicit protests that she is trying to read so please go away. And then, possibly being a total jerk and calling her violent things because of these protests.

About the coffee shop bit I don’t recall, since most things were talking about public transportation in particular.

Hope that helps. =)

Comment #374: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  12:45 AM

Aha!

I think I found it!
(think not know because I’ve been on a blog binge due to illness, and have at times been either sick to the point of not-wholly-there or drugged to the point of not-wholly-there)

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because she’s already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, y’know, don’t disturb her. Really. Even to say that you like her hair, shoes, or book. A compliment is not always a reason for women to smile and say thank you. You are a threat, remember? You are Schrödinger’s Rapist. Don’t assume that whatever you have to say will win her over with charm or flattery. Believe what she’s signaling, and back off.

If you speak, and she responds in a monosyllabic way without looking at you, she’s saying, “I don’t want to be rude, but please leave me alone.” You don’t know why. It could be “Please leave me alone because I am trying to memorize Beowulf.” It could be “Please leave me alone because you are a scary, scary man with breath like a water buffalo.” It could be “Please leave me alone because I am planning my assassination of a major geopolitical figure and I will have to kill you if you are able to recognize me and blow my cover.”

On the other hand, if she is turned towards you, making eye contact, and she responds in a friendly and talkative manner when you speak to her, you are getting a green light. You can continue the conversation until you start getting signals to back off.

And the problem is that those very clear words and signals are ignored on a rather regular basis. The occasional man apparently believes that “a woman’s mere existence in a public space entitles him to her time and attention” (author quote, from the comments)

The anger of the post, and of the agreeing comments, come from, I believe, a long history of being treated as those objects-that-serve-me instead of full people. Put another way: if it were a marginal or rare thing, there would not be such anger. Nor so many agreeing comments.

If anyone has statistics, I’d be curious, since I’m largely working off of amalgamated personal narratives.

Comment #375: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  01:07 AM

I have registered specifically to ask this:

Why is Funky still around?

I think someone way back called Stick Rule (pandagon’s version of Troll in the Dungeon) but either Amanda or one of the other mods hasn’t gotten around to him or is choosing not to because he’s just not that bad compared to most of the trolls we get. He hasn’t deteriorated into hurling obscenities and threats or spamming the board with links that probably have more viruses than the CDC. The only exceptional thing about him is he came back for a second day pushing the number of comments above normal levels.

Comment #376: scrumby  on  12/30  at  01:09 AM

Aaah, I was unfamiliar with Stick Rule.

The sad thing is, I can see how “he’s just not that bad”, especially because of Reddit….

Thanks, scrumby!

Comment #377: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  01:12 AM

@Comment #373: doubtthat on 12/30

Agreed, majority rule is not always a good measure of which interpretation is salient. However phrases like “any reasonable person” in legal copyright situations are more what I was getting at (not to derail into copyright discussions!), and non-legal situations where something is so commonly understood that feigning ignorance is glaringly disingenuous. You know, in the sense of, “That’s not what black-face means to me, honest,” “bitch just means a female dog,” or the like.

And I actually DO think my interpretation of the cartoon is in the majority, although admitting aloud what is “funny” about it puts me in the minority.

Comment #378: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/30  at  01:44 AM

Thanks to all.  Calling it another night (need my beauty sleep!) and promise not to invade this thread tomorrow.  Thanks for all giving me something to think about.  I think my daughters would be thrilled to know I’m working hard to expand my horizon.

Comment #379: Funky Horns  on  12/30  at  01:49 AM

It’s okay, Funky Horns, we’re sex-positive here. No one wants to take away your right to enjoy your unusual fetish for being verbally degraded and offended in the privacy of your own home

Ya, and I don’t get why everyone’s giving him free wankitude, instead of ignoring him and forcing him to go pay a professional domme like a civilized guy with a humiliation fetish would.

Comment #380: mythago  on  12/30  at  02:02 AM

There are two separate issues here: the woman reading in public does not invite interaction thereby, but the woman posting to a public forum invites interaction but does not want to be massively shat upon.

Now while I have never tried to debase a woman over the internet I have spoken to women reading in public if they are reading something I’m interested in. And my justification was that to do an essentially private act in public meant there was another purpose for the action.

Now it’s obvious that if someone is reading on public transportation the other purpose is to utilize the time. Same at a laundromat, or waiting room. They are not inviting people to chat them up. Breaking into their thoughts would be cruel. Although, once as part of a jury pool, when I saw a woman reading a Robertson Davies book, I silently held up my own Robertson Davies book, and received a nod in return. (I would not have done that had we both been reading, say, Stephen King.)

Then there are people who choose to read at Starbucks, or in a cafeteria, or even in a bar. But generally you can find a seat out of the traffic flow if you want to read uninterrupted. But if someone has a free choice of where to read, yet chooses a high traffic spot, I see nothing wrong with trying to strike up a conversation. What would a person who was trying to invite casual conversation do? Stare into space? Smile randomly at no one in particular? I myself have been picked up while reading in a public space:

A few years ago, in Prague, I was sitting on a circular bench in a touristy spot, reading my guidebook, trying to plan where to go next. A young woman sat in a seat near me, and started to read her guidebook. Emboldened, I struck up a conversation about which sights she had seen. We ended up spending a very pleasant weekend together, as two strangers in town. She later told me that she had wanted to meet me, and decided that sitting near me was likely to lead to my striking up a conversation.

Comment #381: Hector B.  on  12/30  at  02:04 AM

What would a person who was trying to invite casual conversation do?

I think you’re talking about reading a book as a way to pass time when looking for casual conversation?  They would glance up from their book and initiate contact with you with a glance, a nod, etc. and then if you appeared interested in interacting, they’d ask a casual question.  For instance.

If they’re reading their book and they don’t initiate conversation, it’s an extremely strong signal not to bother them and it is very, very rude and entitled to interrupt them.  The woman in your example gave you a chance to look up from your book and interact with her if you wanted to instead of impinging on your reading.

Comment #382: Nimravid  on  12/30  at  02:50 AM

The important thing about this whole story is that Hector’s penis still gets to have a good time.

Comment #383: SallyStrange  on  12/30  at  02:55 AM

You know, I’m starting to be convinced that Funky Horns *is* a comedy writer.  After post upon post of willful obtuseness, the sheer stupidity starts to become pretty fucking funny.

It’s like Sideshow Bob and the rakes, except unintentional and with poor pacing.

kaje, here’s a White Guy joke for you:

Q: How many White Guys does it take to tile a bathroom?

A: One, if you slice him thinly.

Comment #384: NY Expat  on  12/30  at  03:10 AM

“Now while I have never tried to debase a woman over the internet I have spoken to women reading in public if they are reading something I’m interested in. And my justification was that to do an essentially private act in public meant there was another purpose for the action.”

Yes. I read books in public quite a lot. I have multiple purposes for this action.

One. It increases the number of hours I have available in the day to read.
Two. I have a book with me I want to read. (And since I purposefully brought this book with me intending to enjoy reading it, the odds are I want to read it more than I want to let you talk to me.)
Three. Reading a book makes it clear I have something to do, and do not wish to be bugged by men who assume that because I am sitting in a public place publicly consuming coffee or occupying a public bench, my time and attention is therefore theirs to utilise.)
Four. It increases the number of hours I have available in the day to read.

A good rule of thumb, Hector, for your benefit, is to consider (assuming you’re strictly heterosexual) “If this were a man reading a book in this cafe, would I assume he did so in order that I could strike up a conversation with him?”

Suggest you try this out by starting a conversation with multiple men in Starbucks based on their “has a free choice of where to read, yet chooses a high traffic spot”. Thanks for providing an example of the entitled kind of guy who eats into my reading time.

I think Funky Horns has amused us enough now.

Comment #385: EyeEdinburgh  on  12/30  at  04:23 AM

Ah, status is unmeasurable and defined as needed for rhetoric.

Truly, around Funky Horns no strawman is safe.

Perhaps an example will help you understand the difference.  Prince Harry of the British Royal Family isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed based on his A-Level grades (and the fact he once dressed as a Nazi).  But he certainly isn’t of low status.

Comment #386: bexley  on  12/30  at  07:19 AM

It’s ok, Funky Horns. Lots of white guys are evolved enough to get my white guy jokes and have a laugh.

Comment #387: kaje  on  12/30  at  10:27 AM

If you watch the clip that was posted of George Carlin, he is saying some stuff and people in the room are laughing, he is not holding up a picture and pointing out how it is funny in ways you might not have thought of because you don’t understand how comedy works.  He is not pointing out assorted ways it could be funny while denying the social implications of how it was used… because Carlin would not have done that, he didn’t run away from what something meant, he ran toward that and said something that made people laugh, thats why he got paid, thats why he was funny, and thats why people wanted to hear what he thought.

Comment #388: ewellone  on  12/30  at  10:36 AM

This post has left me in a terrible state of ambivalence. Though I found it overgeneralized male behavior on the internet, I have to concede the central thesis, that females entering predominately male spaces are likely to encounter resistance, I’m not willing to attribute it to rampant sexism. More I think it has to do with ingroup/outgroup behavior. There are plenty of places I go to that I’m not completely at ease, or even feel a little threatened. I think people stake out their little corners of the world, real or virtual, and try to be comfortable there and end up feeling threatened and lash out a bit at newcomers. Especially if their status in the space is uncertain, they are likely to assume a way to gain status is to attack outsiders. Sexism was the preferred method of attack in this case, the fact that it came so readily to that proves that sexism and misogyny are a problem, but I don’t think that it was at the heart of the matter.  People are insecure and afraid and desperate for approval and will do just about anything to get it. But even if I’m right it still doesn’t change the fact that if misogyny were less tolerated by men, then even in these threatening ingroup-outgroup relations it wouldn’t come up. Instead different insults or asshole tendencies would take it’s place. And that is probably preferable. I don’t know all the types of assholes people can be, but sexist, misogynistic assholes aren’t very good.

Anyways - Here’s a webcomic that sums up Amanda’s point nicely I think. And actually makes this post worthwhile because although my points aren’t very interesting or lucid, this artist’s are. http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=103

Comment #389: idealogue  on  12/30  at  10:38 AM

390! Something to be weirdly proud of. It’s time to go for the record!

 

Comment #390: KingElvis  on  12/30  at  11:21 AM

If as FH says the One True Meaning of the second frame is simply that “Women like to take and post pictures of themselves,”  THEN WHY IS THERE AN OBJECT AT ALL IN FRAME 2?

The illustrator has a spare style where nothing is extraneous.  To make the point “Women like to take and post pictures of themselves”  the first frame would be Object and the second would be Woman.  Alone.  Sans Object.

The fact that the Object is included in the second frame AT ALL, and that is purposefully drawn as to be obscured by the woman, is what shifts the meaning from a simple, stupidly sexist “Women like to take and post pictures of themselves”  to something much more insidiously misogynist.

Comment #391: Pandagoner  on  12/30  at  11:42 AM

Eric_RoM @ 372
Your question has been answered (and buried) in this thread, but also previously mentioned on this blog.

Comment #392: helen w. h.  on  12/30  at  11:46 AM

I think my daughters would be thrilled to know I’m working hard to expand my horizon.

Make sure they know that you’re ok with them getting rape threats from strangers if they get out of line.  It’ll help them understand where you’re coming from.

 

Comment #393: Punditus Maximus  on  12/30  at  12:01 PM

Oops, I should have finished reading the updates before responding.  My bad.

Comment #394: helen w. h.  on  12/30  at  12:12 PM

Comment #390: idealogue on 12/30

I’ll admit that neutral in/out-group behavior may be at the heart of it and sexism is a secondary expression, yes, that is possible because I cannot prove otherwise. But I disagree because our society is generally set up so that the vast majority of spaces are, by default, male: the public—parks, the sidewalk, the transit system—business (traditionally, at the very least), most of the Internet, math-sciency spaces, law school, spaces created by gaming, etc etc. The special spaces created for women are the exception and exist in far fewer numbers.

Therefore the society in which the ingoup/outgroup behavior exists is sexist (and/or misogynist), so even if an individual person is not acting out of sexism when harassing a woman in a male-dominated space, that harassment takes place within a sexist framework and is experienced as sexism to the harassee and others regardless of intent. Moreover the unsexist neutrality of the harasser would be an exhibition of male privilege: he doesn’t have to know what constitutes sexism, the sexist framework isn’t his problem, he feels safe and entitled to harass, etc.

(I think we can make it to #400)

Comment #395: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/30  at  12:17 PM

@Pandagoner #392: the thing you have to understand about conservatives is that they hold reality in such disdain that they are capable of (temporarily) holding the stupidest imaginable opinion about something right in front of us, because they just don’t care about whether or not what’s going on in their heads is true.

That’s why the distinction between “lying” and “stupid” is a distinction without a difference.  If you make yourself stupid deliberately in order to mislead yourself and others, is that then lying? 

Comment #396: Punditus Maximus  on  12/30  at  12:32 PM

Since Funky has ignored the many calls to verify his comedy credentials, I’m going to take a wild shot and guess he wrote the old Batman episode called Nora Clavicle And The Ladies Crime Club.  Nora Clavicle (hilarious!) has all Gotham’s policemen fired and replaced by policewomen (could you die??!) because all women are scared of mice (Oh, stop, you’re killing me!), so the policewomen won’t be able to stop Clavicle’s nefarious plan to set loose explosive mice and blow up Gotham. (HAHAHA *snort*)

In between, we get bonus hilarious material like the policewomen (“Policewomen! As IF!”) refusing to stop a robbery because they’re too busy applying their makeup (‘cuz all women are silly and vain, amiright, fellas?), and then—

And then Funky Horns breaks in to say “But that IS funny!  Because a lot of women DO wear makeup!” followed by 400 posts of erudite, remarkably patient Pandagoners explaining that A does not connect with C, how this is appallingly sexist, and so forth, while FH refuses to get the point.

Comment #397: Blue Jean  on  12/30  at  12:49 PM

A good rule of thumb, Hector, for your benefit, is to consider (assuming you’re strictly heterosexual) “If this were a man reading a book in this cafe, would I assume he did so in order that I could strike up a conversation with him?”

Suggest you try this out by starting a conversation with multiple men in Starbucks based on their “has a free choice of where to read, yet chooses a high traffic spot”. Thanks for providing an example of the entitled kind of guy who eats into my reading time.

BTDT. It happens that on this same trip I was reading a book I had just purchased on hunting, in a biergarten in Munich’s Fussgaenger Zone. A middle-aged man nearby greeted me in what I soon learned to be the jargon of German hunters. We then had a fascinating conversation about hunting (known as Weidwerk in the jargon), which is a Roman legacy in southern Germany, Austria, and northern Italy. He explained how he rented a piece of ground and hunted all year long. He showed me how hunters toasted each other, and then we parted. As far as I know he just wanted to chat with a fellow hunter, not find a place to stick his penis. And I had no expectation of being left alone in such a high traffic place as a biergarten. Had I wanted to read without being disturbed, I would have picked a quiet, out-of-the-way spot.

Comment #398: Hector B.  on  12/30  at  12:52 PM

@Comment #390: idealogue on 12/30 at 10:38 AM

I have to concede the central thesis, that females entering predominately male spaces are likely to encounter resistance, I’m not willing to attribute it to rampant sexism. More I think it has to do with ingroup/outgroup behavior. There are plenty of places I go to that I’m not completely at ease, or even feel a little threatened…

OK, but then you have to ask, why is r/Atheism, or any other apparently neutral social media, coded “male” to begin with? And if it somehow is, how did it get that way? I think it’s all the douchebags writing nasty shit about women.

Comment #399: atheist  on  12/30  at  12:53 PM

For the record, there are polite and impolite ways to interrupt someone while reading in a public area.  Just like how there are polite and impolite ways to tell someone in an elevator that you enjoyed their talk and would like to buy them a coffee sometime.  Context matters.

Comment #400: Punditus Maximus  on  12/30  at  01:06 PM

Hector B.—

How is that now what I just wrote?

The thing in question is not even necessarily a guy going, “Hey, that’s a book I just read and think is totally awesome, glad to see someone else reading it,” and then a conversation happening (or not) after any “what do you think of it so far?” is met with an enthusiastic response (or not, if there was no enthusiastic response, and then the guy can go “I hope you enjoy it!” and turn away/leave without awkwardness, and probably a lot of understanding if he himself thought the book was awesome).

It is, instead, a thing about a man continuously trying to talk to a woman who is reading in a public place despite her obviously still trying to read and/or over her explicit protests that she is trying to read so please go away. And then, possibly being a total jerk and calling her violent things because of these protests.

No one is claiming at all ever that men and women who are reading are once in a long while are not interrupted by people they then go on to have a meaningful and mutually enjoyable conversation with.

The complaint is that women are much more likely, to the tune of weekly or monthly even, be interrupted by men who DO NOT wish to engage them about the book, and DO NOT pay attention to any signals and language to that aim, and occasionally go so far as to become negatively aggressive when the woman says she wants to continue reading, to the tune of sexual slurs.

Note how in your stories there is very clear enthusiastic consent on your part for the conversations. (or even before!) Note how in your last story you were engaged by someone who was very much involved with your book’s subject matter. Note how you never asked anyone to go away, or were (I hope!) never told, “Pardon me, I would like to get back to my book.”

Do you honestly think the people would have been highly affronted and continued to talk to you after you asked for them to go away? Or not have honored that request?

Thus, your stories are almost completely separate from the issue, except for the nonsense about high-traffic places. Some people like to be around people; some people - GASP - happen to enjoy good beer on tap, and at least in my experience good beer places are very, very crowded; some people have terminally late friends with whom they will be happy to socialize, but would rather read before the party starts; some people like live music. The reasons, in the end, do not matter. It is perfectly socially acceptable for them to request interrupters to let them read, and expect those requests to be honored with no further ado. Saying “but you were in a high-traffic place!” afterwards is like saying “but you were wearing a skirt!” after a woman does not respond to come-ons, and comes close to victim blaming. Please stop that.

And yes, if someone noticed the book and says “Hey, I love that, too!” and is met with an enthusiastic conversation-propelling response, that’d dandy. It’s also tangential to the issue.

* based off of, as I said, many accounts I have heard; I don’t know if there has ever been a national peer-reviewed study or somesuch.

Comment #401: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  01:43 PM

Just like how there are polite and impolite ways to tell someone in an elevator that you enjoyed their talk and would like to buy them a coffee sometime.

I’d still advise against it. Better to do it when there are other people around.

Comment #402: Triplanetary  on  12/30  at  02:05 PM

Oh you can do it fine.  Just wait until you’re close to her floor, give her personal space, give her your number, and accept rejection cheerfully if it is offered.

That’s the awesome part about Elevatorgate.  It’s so obvious what the correct thing to do is, and it involves basic standards of courtesy that are drilled into us in elementary school.  But the PUAs and MRAs who defended EG’s actions want to be angry with and hurt women, not meet or date them.

Comment #403: Punditus Maximus  on  12/30  at  02:33 PM

Gotta keep on keepin’ on this thread. 500 or BUST!

Some thoughts, deep and otherwise, on Reddit-gate.

It occurred to me that Marcotte would naturally identify with the 15yo lass - because Marcotte is dealing in a web-world where her identity - and face - are known to an anonymous public. What makes nasty keyboard hijinks seem more threatening is that the face of the ‘victim’ is known. Marcotte knows that feeling of menace - the anger at the cowardice of anonymous - and basically meaningless (in the sense that the threaten-ers don’t have the guts or means to carry them out) threats.

Then there is the noble motive of defending the young and naive and innocent. Marcotte would then be casting herself in the role of heroic defender of feminine honor of the 15yo.

The motive to defend the weak and the empathy she feels with this youngster are both virtuous.

...BUT… what really sticks out - honestly - as ‘the bridge too far’ was this wild overstatement of the case against the atheist men. This kind of cowardly digital hazing has its own logic, and, as I pointed out in like #10 - it could be solved in a matter of hours by admins banning profanity.

It’s reductionist to take this keyboard horseplay - mostly of the ‘cads’ responding to each other (“That’s what SHE said!” Haha) and twist that into:

“All men don’t want ladies to read!”

That’s just too far of a jump in reasoning. It’s impressionistic and caricatured at best.

And back to the notion of the divergent standards for different people…

I’ll state it again: on Pandagon, THIS VERY BLOG, I’ve been keyboard threatened - asked to ‘die’ or to be ripped apart by hungry wolves and/or sharks.

So where’s my Marcotte in shining armor, defending me from these “death threats?”

Final note on literary/feminist theory used to rationalize judging men on a harsher standard than women:

It’s not working gals.

I’ve been told on this (potentially record breaking) thread that a prostitute can legitimately lump every man into the category of “John” but a John can’t lump every woman into the category of prostitute. Literary/Feminist theory says you can!

And back to the exchange with ALYSIA around #290, I was informed that masculinity and femininity are both not ‘real’ or the fact of their ‘social construct’ makes them only quasi real. And then we can get into pop psychology about all really manly men are not really manly - they’re just ‘performing masculinity’ and are in fact “insecure in their masculinity.” (Which doesn’t ‘really’ exist BTW)

So by that standard, here’s the world we live in:

Every linebacker in the NFL is in fact, not really manly, they’re just ‘performing a socially constructed role’ and by ‘overcompensating’ they are actually “not secure in their masculinity.” And to continue that ‘reasoning,’  every hot babe in Hollywood is actually NOT feminine - they’re just ‘insecure in their femininity.’ 

Really? Because if your literary/feminist theory causes you to stray that far from basic logic, who are you going to make a case to? And more importantly, what is the case?

 

Comment #404: KingElvis  on  12/30  at  03:32 PM

Unless you’re being obtuse, you know full well that if a man posted a picture of himself holding up a book on r/Atheism, there would be no such reaction. In all likelihood there would be a semi-reasonable discussion about the book and the implications of it as a gift from one’s religious mother. You can’t account for that difference in responses without bringing misogyny into it, because that difference is misogyny. The specific gender attitudes of the individuals involved in that reddit thread aren’t the entire point; there is a culture of misogyny which allows events like this to happen, and we know this because events like this happen consistently.

Lastly, note that there is a difference between these two statements:
“All men don’t want ladies to read!”
“The patriarchy doesn’t want ladies to read!”

One of them happens to describe Amanda’s position in this post, and one does not.

Comment #405: Triplanetary  on  12/30  at  03:42 PM

If you look at the Link to rebbecca watson’s blog, you will see like 3 photos she grabbed of the sight of dudes posing with their atheist books.

Comment #406: alysia  on  12/30  at  04:09 PM

More I think it has to do with ingroup/outgroup behavior.

Is there any sign this girl was a newcomer to reddit, or atheism, or in any other way an “outgroup” member ?
If being female is enough to automatically be labeled as “outgroup” then that itself is sexism.

Comment #407: Caravelle  on  12/30  at  04:51 PM

Hollywood actresses are not playing a role, KingElvis?  This is your thesis?  You think Hollywood is real and the most natural expression of maleness is being a NFL player?

We can take this sucker to 500 if anyone wants to rehash the entirety of feminism 101.

Comment #408: Nimravid  on  12/30  at  04:56 PM

Isn’t that the definition of sexism?  Women being an outgroup instead of full humans?

Comment #409: Nimravid  on  12/30  at  05:02 PM

Does reading actually make that more likely?

Yes.

I’ve heard plenty of men insinuate that an intelligent, bookish woman was offensive to their sensibilities and nothing but an object to be pitied, but I’ve never heard a guy say “oh shit, a reader; I’m gonna go fuck with her program! That’ll teach her to read around here.”

I have.  By having men come up and interrupt me.  It’s almost never been related to the book.  Sometimes the interruption takes the form of “Hey!  Hey!” and waving their hands and snapping their fingers when I still ignore them.

Comment #410: Nimravid  on  12/30  at  05:09 PM

gigglesmcfee@402:  I don’t get the impression that HectorB thinks it’s OK to persist at (or begin) talking to a woman when her body language isn’t receptive, or she’s explicitly said to leave her alone.  If anything, his post read similarly to the excellent link you provided.

Also, I believe he was responding to 386, who connected his approach to guys constantly bugging her when she’s reading, even in lounge areas of bookstores and coffee shops, and universalized the experience to all women reading in lounge areas of bookstores and coffee shops, so that his approach was deemed to be disrespectful of any woman he approaches, regardless of receptiveness to initial contact (compare to 383, which adds the context that your link discusses).  Totally within her right to not want any contact, and from her description she’s getting approached despite not going any affirmative signals, but that doesn’t sound like the scenario that HectorB is describing.

Yes, “why is she reading in public?” on it’s own reeks of “she’s asking for it”, but the rest of the post makes it pretty clear that he’s saying, depending strongly on the locale, that it’s “more likely” that a woman would be receptive to conversation, which is a far cry from “certain”.

Comment #411: NY Expat  on  12/30  at  05:40 PM

@Comment #405: KingElvis on 12/30

Ha! Admirable attempt to troll your way to 500 comments, “lad”. It might actually work, as long as you haven’t expended your purposefully obtuse analogies on that comment (and I don’t think you did) and are able to sprinkle them along. Save room for, “it happens to men too,” “sure ladies say it happens but I see no reputable source that indicates it is so,” and “subjectivity.” If you run out of punctuations like, “gals” and “lass,” maybe you could move on to “dollface,” maybe even a “sugartits” for good measure?

Oh, and I’ll bet that that idealistic, shortsighted Amanda has wickedly assigned all your eager knights in shining armor to the realm of comment moderation/spam. If only she could see that men hurt too!

Seriously, though, I’ve wondered for a while: do two separate people post using your screen-name?

Comment #412: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/30  at  06:14 PM

This sort of reminds me of how in its a wonderful life, they show that his brother died, the family lost the business, but then the angel thinks what happens to his wife is so terrible that he shouldn’t even see it, and it turns out the wife is a librarian.

Comment #413: alysia  on  12/30  at  06:14 PM

Actually Hector was arguing with “the woman reading in public does not invite interaction thereby.” His statement was that reading in a high traffic public place “meant” you want to interact with people.  It never means that.  He interpreted the reading itself as a message, when the only message that would mean a person was looking for interaction would be…looking for interaction.  That would at least involve looking up from your book and making eye contact/looking for interest in further interaction with the people around you.  In other words, someone looking for interaction would stop reading.  On their own.

Reading a book is not a silent message that you want people to interrupt you.  No matter where you read, it’s not a secret “please interact with me message” that some guys are just clever enough to decipher.

Comment #414: Nimravid  on  12/30  at  06:15 PM

@Comment #410: Chet on 12/30

I’d say reading is a special harassment-magnet for me, personally (and others may disagree) because where I live it seems to trigger the guys who think of themselves as big jolly Southern gentlemen, who often would lie dormant in the harassment department otherwise. But somewhere along the way they seem to have picked up the notion that a woman reading is waiting for some gallant guy to chat her up and rescue her from her book, along with the notions that a woman carrying something—anything—and refusing help is in need of a man to remark on how and why she does or does not need help while orbiting around her; and a woman minding her own business should be reminded to smile. Thus the noticeable uptick.

Comment #415: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/30  at  06:24 PM

@Comment #415: alysia on 12/30 Ha, I love that part smile “She’s at.. she’s at… THE LIBRARY!”

Comment #416: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/30  at  06:29 PM

Funky said: “Who is the arbiter of what is “truly” sexist?”

Excellent question!

“Cause we are all telling you that your contribution to this thread so far has been just that”

Oh, you weren’t really asking.  You were saying that you are.

Got it.

***

Witty, perhaps, but no substance. 

Actually, no, I’m not saying that all the people here are the lone sole arbiters of what is “truly” sexist (whatever that means… you seem to define it as “stuff other people do but not me”).  I am trying to get you to think about why it is that such a large group of people might agree on this while you are the lone holdout.  And what it says about you that you refuse to re-evaluate your (unstated) rules to evaluate what is sexist and what isn’t in the face of what all of these people are saying.

I mean, if you thought something was red and 50 other people around you said, “no, its green” then wouldn’t you be wise to consider the possibility that you are colorblind?  That your personal test of what is red and what is green is skewed?

OF COURSE (anticipating stupid objection here) that doesn’t mean that you can just substitute group think for thinking on your own.  But it DOES mean that a wise person who is truly interested in improving themselves and not just proving that they are ALWAYS RIGHT would re-think their (still unstated!) criteria in the face of SO MANY who reject your position (and who, frankly, have MUCH more experience dealing with sexism then you do.)

*****

re: the book thing:  I always thought that this happened because women reading in public are stationary targets, as it were.  This gives Nice Guys (tm) time to screw up their courage, staring at you while you read so as to psyche themselves up.  It also gives them an out in case of rejection.  They are rudely interrupting you, so there is a fair chance that you will give them the brush off if they bug you.  When you do, then they can rationalize you rejecting them as you being a bitch (“man, I just wanted to be nice, why didn’t she acknowledge me, make eye contact, smile, give me her #, etc etc??  She must be totally stuck up, I’m actually glad I didn’t make a connection now!!!”).

Comment #417: Aenea Lucrecia  on  12/30  at  06:42 PM

NY Expat @ right above: I don’t think he’s given that impression either, but it worries me a bit that when the issue comes and the confusion of “but I’ve had lovely conversations both after being interrupted and by interrupting!” comes up. I find that it distracts from the issue, as similar non-problematic things distract from even more important issues.

I completely agree with post #383, and I read #386 as responding to his comment: “my justification was that to do an essentially private act in public meant there was another purpose for the action,” by pointing out that such a justification by itself is baseless and entitled (linking all too nicely with her getting pestered), and didn’t address anything else wrong in his descriptions.

Well, the fact that he responded twice with tangential anecdotes…. but only in a perfect world would someone say, “Ah yes, I realize that there is a problem with such behaviors. I suppose unconsciously I have been relying on many small social cues, and now that I am aware of that I will only honor them more. I shall not assume that someone reading in public is merely trying to catch my or another’s eye. I do have this fun story of human connection from a trip in Bavaria, though. Let us build a world where women won’t be interrupted needlessly by jerks, so such lovely human connections are more likely to be had by all!” ^_~

Glad you liked the link!

Chet: I think my wording was a little unclear. I haven’t the faintest idea if a woman is more likely to be accosted walking down the street that reading on a bus;* I was trying to say that a woman is much less likely to be interrupted while reading by a man genuinely interested in engaging her in an enjoyable conversation of equals (and probably about her book) than not.

* I only realized after writing it how depressing this is. :-\

Comment #418: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  06:42 PM

Huh, this thread really is still alive!
NY Expat @ 413, not @ right above.


Aenea Lucrecia @ 419: I never thought of it that way, but I think you’re on to something. ugh.

Comment #419: gigglesmcfee  on  12/30  at  07:27 PM

Pandagon is the cruelest blog; breeding comments out of the dead land

Comment #420: atheist  on  12/30  at  08:07 PM

I will show you fear in a pantload of “buts”

Comment #421: Nimravid  on  12/30  at  08:26 PM

Nimravid: “Reading a book is not a silent message that you want people to interrupt you.  No matter where you read, it’s not a secret “please interact with me message” that some guys are just clever enough to decipher.”

Damn right.

“By having men come up and interrupt me.  It’s almost never been related to the book.  Sometimes the interruption takes the form of “Hey!  Hey!” and waving their hands and snapping their fingers when I still ignore them.”

Oh god yes. I am a champion ignorer of people when I’m reading, but sometimes they actually wave their hands between my eyes and the page of the book. Because, you know, how could I want to continue reading now there’s a man around to interact with?

Comment #422: EyeEdinburgh  on  12/30  at  08:33 PM

@415 and #418,

I know, right? 

“Where’s my wife, Clarence? Where’s Mary?”
“She’s become an old maid, George, she never married..”
“Where is she???!”
“SHE’S JUST GETTING READY TO CLOSE UP THE LIBRARY!”
**George dashes off in horror**

What makes this scene even more (unintentionally) funny is the gender reversed remake It Happened One Christmas. George becomes Mary Bailey, Mary becomes George Hatch, and Clarence turns into Clara.  So…is Pottersville’s George Hatch a lonely bachelor librarian, like Giles?

Don’t talk foolish.

Pottersville’s George Hatch is a homeless, filthy wino dying of the DTs in a freezing alley. Because that’s the male equivalent to the horror of being an unmarried woman librarian.

Me, I’d far rather be a single librarian than a dying homeless drunk, but hey, that’s just me. wink

Comment #423: Blue Jean  on  12/30  at  09:56 PM

@ Blue Jean - Whoa, I followed the link and I had never heard of the movie. That was really interesting.

Comment #424: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  12/30  at  10:09 PM

OK if this thread’s still going, I want to add an observation, and ask a question. I’m a female bookworm, and I read in public a lot. This thing of being interrupted hardly ever happens to me. (fairly attractive, if it’s relevant.)

In fact the last time I remember a stranger aggressively interrupting my reading was years ago, and it was late at night on the bus and the man doing it was really, really drunk. I have always thought of a book as an almost surefire way of making sure I won’t be bothered.

I’m not American. I am starting to suspect this is highly relevant. I’m just wondering if all the other women who have noticed being harrassed correlates with reading in public are American/USian. And, if it’s a US thing, if there’s somehow a connection with that anti-intellectual streak in US political culture which associates anti-intellectualism with masculinity.

Comment #425: daisyparker  on  12/30  at  10:46 PM

I have very often been interrupted while reading.  Even had the finger snap thing, thanks Nimravid.  And I’m always very clear with my body language that I really am involved with my reading and not wanting to be interrupted.

And what makes it interesting is that, regardless of how I have responded, unless I put down the book and start talking with the guy, he always has something shitty READY TO SAY.  There’s no gap, no surprise, no fumbling for words.  Instead he has an immediate “riposte” like “you don’t have to be like that” or “I’m just trying to be friendly” or “what’s wrong with you” or “fucking bitch.”

Which says to me these guys aren’t just being friendly and aren’t confused about whether I’m giving off “I’m reading because I’m lonely” vibes or not.  Their immediate response to rejection is not confusion but hostility.  They know they will get rejections, they are ready for them, and do not have good intentions.  They want to bully a woman into paying attention to them because they might find a woman who’s easy to push and manipulate.

It’s no different from the common street harasser.

Comment #426: oldfeminist  on  12/31  at  12:13 AM

Which is to say that Hector B probably is reading the signals reasonably accurately if he hasn’t encountered a lot of rejection. 

Again, most men are able to tell if they’re welcome or not, it’s just that some men don’t care.

Perhaps women who want to be interrupted while reading could use some kind of signal.  Like holding the book upside down or something.

Comment #427: oldfeminist  on  12/31  at  12:16 AM

daisyparker: I am American and have only lived in the US, but have observed this behavior in Germany and was utterly appalled by what was considered appropriate during a (admittedly very brief) visit to France. 

I often get the feeling that anti-intellectualism is exaggerated, but since I used to think that about some misogynistic things, I could be oblivious. We have seen a large amount of bad things from supposed intellectuals recently, though… *cough*

Comment #428: gigglesmcfee  on  12/31  at  12:43 AM

@Comment #426: MoseyMcShuffleson,

Yeah, it is interesting, especially since the star Marlo Thomas was one of feminism’s leading lights in the 60s and 70s. I applaud her remake choice, and I’m glad she chose to make a Christmas movie centered around a business woman, but ironically enough, most of the women’s parts (Violet Bick, Mom, and Beulah) got cut down in favor of the men’s parts, like George,* Bert and Ernie.

Anyway, the US channel “Lifetime” used to run it every now and then.  It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it, but Orson Welles as the villainous Henry F. Potter still stands out. The rest of the remake is pretty dark, both literally and figuratively.  Thomas and her cast lack Stewart’s and the rest of the “Life’s”  self-depreciating charm and humor.  MT seems to grit her teeth with rage every other scene or so, until I want to offer her some ulcer medicine.  Honey, you’re a small time savings and loan exec confronting a corrupt 1%er, not Luke Skywalker dueling Darth Vader.

*It’s hinted that “George Hatch” was suffering WWII shell shock, and Mary helped him cure it.  Without Mary’s help, George becomes the aforementioned homeless wino.  OK, but it’s still a lot worse than being a single librarian.

Comment #429: Blue Jean  on  12/31  at  01:35 AM

The worst reading interruptions that I ever had happened during the 3 months I was reading Proust. Because it is huge, the prose is dense, and the sentences long and convoluted, I had to really concentrate, and it seemed like some guy was constantly interrupting me. It didn’t matter if I was on my break at work, on campus, in the library, and even the one time I sat in a parking lot in my car (silly me to have had the windows rolled down). A lot of the comments were something along the lines of “what’s a sweet girl like you doing with such a big book?”

When I read I am completely into the book, and the world could probably end and I might not even notice for a few sentences. It takes a lot to interrupt me, and the time I was reading in my car I was so startled by the guy coming up to my window that I screamed when he spoke to me. Bet he thought twice before he did that again.

Comment #430: Jodi  on  12/31  at  01:45 AM

daisyparker: “’m not American. I am starting to suspect this is highly relevant. I’m just wondering if all the other women who have noticed being harrassed correlates with reading in public are American/USian.”

Nope, I’m not American either.

Comment #431: EyeEdinburgh  on  12/31  at  05:34 AM

I go to places like Starbucks or the local mall to do my writing for several reasons:

1.  It has free wifi and I don’t have internet at home.  I often need to look things up.

2.  I find my imagination/thinking is much clearer when there are a lot of things around me I can focus on (namely people).

3.  At home I have a million distractions around me.  I can curl up and go to sleep.  In a public place I can’t do that and there are very few actual distractions except food or beverages.

I don’t go so jerkwads will bother me, and yet ... yet ...

It’s also a reason that I sometimes read in public.  I don’t particularly like reading or studying, so if I do it at home I will distract myself in any way I can.  In public I don’t have any of those things.  And you might say, “Why not just do that at the library??”  Well, the library doesn’t allow food and drink.  I like to pack up a lunch, go to the mall (where they have a big public center court area with wifi and tables where lots of people hang out, play chess/scrabble, and so on) and do my stuff.  And the library is just so quiet and uncomfortable that my brain gets kind of itchy.  It’s almost the same as trying to study at home, to be honest.  I need more stimuli ...

Regarding Funky, of course I believe he’s a comedy writer!  Because nothing he’s said so far is funny!  (zzzziiiiing)

 

Comment #432: BonAppetit  on  12/31  at  05:51 AM

MoseyMcShuffleson @ 414 - I’ve actually wondered that about KingElvis, too! (and a couple of others)

Comment #433: helen w. h.  on  12/31  at  10:12 AM

daisyparker @ 427 - I’ve seen it happen on the subway in Tokyo (but not experienced it myself, and there may have been more going on as I do not understand Japanese beyond the very rudementary).
I have had it happen to me when sitting inplaces in both Europe and Asia, though usually that was someone much younger and typically something like “You’re an American, aren’t you?”  after which they either want to talk (in Asia practicing conversational English without having to pay for it is a BIG thing) or ask about the US and/or Canada.  I’m more indulgent to those people (who can be both male and female, though skew male).

Comment #434: helen w. h.  on  12/31  at  10:24 AM

I see KingElvis is throwing another “don’t hate me for my penis” tantrum. Save it for your wife, honey; no one here cares.

The person who pointed out that people who whine about “political correctness” are invariably defending the status quo is brilliant. Why didn’t I think to put it that way. Few things have ever hurt and humbled me more than being called on my own bullshit. There’s a reason feminists get under the skin of sexist trolls without even threatening to rape them.

I fully believe this last derailing douchebag was a professional comedy writer, and I don’t see why anyone would doubt at least that part of his story.

Finally, yes, women are enormous attention whores. You can’t leave the house without a woman wolf-whistling at you so you’ll notice her. Women are always interrupting me when I’m reading in public, trying to get me to notice them and not the thing other than them that has my attention. When I don’t respond, they get annoyed and snap their fingers and yell at me to focus on them. Men just tend to keep to themselves, you know? They don’t need to be constantly demanding attention.

Comment #435: junk science  on  12/31  at  10:32 AM

415, 418, 421: Thanks for explaining that. I was confused by that part of the movie, it felt like I was missing something.

I’d also like to thank everyone here who’s shared their experiences of being interrupted while reading. These things are largely invisible to me (after all, I am almost *never* interrupted when reading publicly, and interrupting someone for any reason other than to talk about the book they’re reading wouldn’t have occurred to me as an okay thing). This probably led me to massively underestimate how frequent and overestimate how welcome such an interruption was.

Comment #436: Benquo  on  12/31  at  10:43 AM

I’d also like to point out that the interrupting thing is a great example of how some assholes can harm *both* the women they harrass and well-intentioned men. My own experience is that I am almost never interrupted when reading to talk about the book, so when I am, it’s usually welcome as an opportunity to connect with another person with whom I share a common interest.

But if your experience is that reading in public means enduring frequent harrassment, then you’re more likely to feel like you have to be on your guard, and any approach is likely to be unwelcome.

Comment #437: Benquo  on  12/31  at  10:52 AM

If you ever really want to attract unwelcome attention, try writing in a notebook in a public place. I’ve actually had somebody reach down and try to turn the notebook around so they could see what I was writing, and I’m sort of a rough-looking dude. I hate to think of the kind of abuse I’d get if I were a woman.

Comment #438: Ridnik Chrome  on  12/31  at  01:11 PM

Also, I’ve actually had a number of pretty good conversations with women (and men) that started because I noticed and commented on a book that they were reading in some public place. But I will almost always wait until someone is taking a break from the book before I say anything, and if they act like they want to get back to it, I let them. It’s not really that difficult of a situation to negotiate.

(Just doing my bit to get this thread to 500…)

Comment #439: Ridnik Chrome  on  12/31  at  01:14 PM

C’mon people, we can DO 500.

OK, back to the Funky Horns kerfluffle. I’ve been keeping my powder dry on that one…until now.

I think we can take as a cornerstone of comedy that official rectitude is mocked. In fact that rectidued is actually necessary for comedy.

Catholics know that feeling of the stuffy and serious and pious tone of Mass often incites a momentous urge to laugh out loud.

The greater the tone of formality in context, the more need to control emotions and to behave ‘seriously’ - the easier and more - purgative - the laughter. The release is correlated to the ‘repression’ of the context.

The court jester is there to periodically release the psychic, nervous tension in the court - and the method is invariably mockery of official, sanctioned mores. The majestic formality of the court itself functioned as the ‘reservoir’ of nervous tension that had to be released by the jester, who could freely mock the king.

So ‘political correctness’ itself provides this damned up reservoir of tension. In its insistence on controlling officially sanctioned manners, it can only become a taboo generator. So the jester has a new accepted mode of propriety newly available for the mocking.

“Humourists” (Roy Blount? PJ O Rourke?) never like to discuss it, but there is a ‘physics’ of the machine of comedy. This nervous tension is created by what you might call the ‘static electricity’ generated by the tension in social relations and the official code of social power.

Laughter represents the little shock of release when that static electricity or nervous repression is ‘equalized.’

So there will always be at least one ‘victim’ in comedy: the officially sanctioned code of rectitude. Usually there will also be the person who represents it as the enforcer. The tension between what the world is supposed to be under the strict code, and the ‘unspoken truth’ that is itself a criticism of the pious assumptions of that code provides the potential comic energy for the jester to unleash.


Comment #440: KingElvis  on  12/31  at  02:01 PM

I often get the feeling that anti-intellectualism is exaggerated, but since I used to think that about some misogynistic things, I could be oblivious. We have seen a large amount of bad things from supposed intellectuals recently, though… *cough*

Hate to say it, but anti-intellectualism is alive and well in the US and being interrupted for reading a book/doing anything “intellectual” or worse is commonplace.  In my old working-class NYC neighborhood, I’ve routinely seen readers harassed and sometimes even beaten up by others for “reading too much”. 

In my wealthier cousins’ suburbs, a lot of parents viewed reading too much as a bad thing and sometimes even rude anti-social behavior….especially if it is done in public.  Women would be told to not be anti-social and men told to pick a more “manly social activity” like team sports.  In addition to the sexism and anti-intellectualism….I’ve also noticed a strong bias against introverts and loners as they are often negatively labeled as “anti-social”....a behavior which “must be corrected”. 

This BS is one reason other than being easily distracted by noises and motion why I don’t read in public except in the library. 

Even the library is becoming iffy considering the increasing numbers of inconsiderate idiots who don’t realize that the university/public library is NOT THE PLACE to chat on one’s cell phone/leave the laptop audio on LOUD as if they were on the street and cop a major ‘tude with the library/security staff when called on it and told to cease or to take it outside.  rolleyes

Comment #441: exholt  on  12/31  at  02:52 PM

I have to second BonAppetit’s comment.  I’ve been working on a novel for approximately the past hundred and twenty years, I think, and most of it’s been written in coffee shops for the exact reasons she gives.

It’s a good day when I’m only interrupted once or twice by guys wanting to talk to me, and they only waste 10% of my time.  And it’s almost always guys.  Only twice in all these years has it been a woman.

A bad day is when some cow-eyed twit sits down at my table without asking, strikes up a conversation, and then has absolutely nothing interesting to say.  Seriously, if you’re going to interrupt my work, break my rhythm, and monopolize my time, at least have the decency to not be the most boring person on the planet.  And don’t expect me to carry a conversation that I never wanted to have in the first place.

A really bad day is when the guy calls into question my reasons for writing a novel, and suggests I should just give it up and “enjoy life” instead.  No amount of “this IS what I enjoy” will deflect his criticism.  I suspect what he really means is that I should stop wasting my time on such a silly little hobby and instead go back to his apartment and fuck him like a good girl.  In all cases so far, he will not budge from the seat (nor stop staring creepily at me) until I finally give up writing for the day and just leave.  I would prefer to tell him to please go away… but I can’t bring myself to do it, because I’ve been thoroughly conditioned to think of that as approximately the worst crime a woman can commit against a man.

Seriously, “I don’t mean to be rude, but please go away” sounds so damn EASY, in theory.  Sitting at home right now, I can’t imagine not just saying it.  But in real life, when the guy’s sitting across from you and you have his delicate ego cradled in your hands, you have to overcome a lifetime of training to get those words out.  It is a thousand times harder than it sounds.

In conclusion, DO NOT WANT WHY WHY WHY I SWEAR TO GOD YOU CAN’T WIN NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO SO FRUSTRATING SO FRUSTRATING FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE ARGLEBARGLE RAAAAAAR.

Whew.  That felt good.  I think I’m ready to go down to the coffee shop and write now.

Comment #442: ZenPoseur  on  12/31  at  03:19 PM

ZenPoseur@444: See my comment at 440. I find that “Excuse me, but I really have to get back to work now” (with emphasis on the word “work”) gets rid of all but the most persistent intruders. But then, I’m a guy. YMMV. And good luck with the novel.

Exholt@443: What NYC neighborhood are you referring to? (So I’ll know to stay out of it.)

Comment #443: Ridnik Chrome  on  12/31  at  03:59 PM

ZenPoseur@444: See my comment at 440. I find that “Excuse me, but I really have to get back to work now” (with emphasis on the word “work”) gets rid of all but the most persistent intruders. But then, I’m a guy. YMMV. (And good luck with the novel.)

Exholt@443: What NYC neighborhood are you referring to? (So I’ll know to stay out of it.)

Comment #444: Ridnik Chrome  on  12/31  at  04:01 PM

Exholt@443: What NYC neighborhood are you referring to? (So I’ll know to stay out of it.)

You won’t have to worry about it anymore as all that went out with the gentrification from the 1990’s onward which dramatically altered the atmosphere of the neighborhood.  It’s not the neighborhood I remembered from my childhood. 

Nowadays, that same neighborhood(Chelsea/Hells Kitchen) seems to be dominated by wealthy professionals and wealthy Columbia/NYU students.

Comment #445: exholt  on  12/31  at  04:38 PM

exholt - to re-enforce your experience, on the opposite sidce of the country (Spokane, WA), 12 yo me had to go to day camp at the YMCA because my younger siblings went, my mother had a welfare grant thing that required all 3 of us attend or none and she could not afford daycare for my brother (youngest at 7) nor felt she could leave the other two in my care for entire days due to the neighborhood where we lived and a recent round of rapes and assaults of other types there.  I attended.  I took part in all organized activities.  When we would go to a park, playground or whatever, or on the bus to get to them, I would read.  I had just been given the entire LotR series, in hardcover, and hauled a volume from that with me.  The counselors were very upset; complained I was anti-social; called my mother in to discuss my “problem”.  I don’t know how they would have reacted had they known about my reading “the Harad Experiment” six month later; probably tried to press charges on my mother for child abuse/neglect or take us away from her probably.

Comment #446: helen w. h.  on  12/31  at  05:24 PM

Also, doing my part to push towards 500 comments and bring the discussion back to reading in public, certain men acting badly and what we might want/be able to do about that.

Comment #447: helen w. h.  on  12/31  at  05:25 PM

@405

What is “real” is really a complex question you can’t expect a Pandagonian to address in an offhand comment. Socially constructed identities can feel vital and real to the person possessing them, sure. I highly doubt anyone in this thread thinks that performativity = “fake, doing it to impress others”. And it’s completely unknown as to how MAAB and FAAB people would behave without being influenced by social constructions of gender, since no recorded society has ever existed without them.

But did Alysia really have to write that disclaimer in order to use a few imprecise words to get across her point?

Comment #448: Treefinger  on  12/31  at  05:36 PM

There is more than one version of the cartoon out there, and it’s commented on as “This picture never fails to be posted” in the reddit thread.  The other version that’s also mentioned in the thread:

http://i.imgur.com/plNPw.jpg

Come on 500.

Comment #449: oldfeminist  on  12/31  at  05:52 PM

Oh, I don’t question that it exists, I’ve just wondered about how much it exists. Even the most jockity jock jocks in my small-town mid-western bible-thumping football-loving gay-hating sex-hating black-hating republican-loving gun-loving high school certainly didn’t cause (anti-intellectual) problems that I ever saw, and one even indicated being impressed by my test scores (when I was shy, quiet, bookish, nerdy, could-have-been-pulverized-by-him-in-2-seconds, and new to the school system to boot with basically no friends).

It was not an intellectual-loving place by any means, but it was much less worse than I had been expecting based on what “middle america” was supposed to be like, especially re: every depiction of teenagers in media ever. (Previously, I was in Silicon Valley, and it basically seemed like people loved all tech and your scholastic aptitude was just taken as another character trait. (Provided you weren’t a huge jerk about it, like by mocking other people for not doing well. I only saw one person kill their social standing like this, though.) And reading went along with this, thankfully.)

But anyway, my basic point is that I don’t think interrupters in public are motivated nearly as much by hating intellectuals as they are by hating women, or at least entitlement/narcissism mixed with privilege/sexism which… I think is different-ish but basically the same thing. “An easy target!” more than a ideologically motivated “I have to stop the scourge of reading!”

I think it’s more useful to attack that, also, since because we’ve recently seen how misogynistic people who pride themselves on rational thought and bookish knowledge can be, I don’t think curing America of anti-intellectualism in the wave of a hand would get rid of much misogyny. hmmm

As for how to attack it… I have no idea. Encourage every bookish woman to have bookmarks that tell someone about How They Should Act that they can pass out when they’re harassed? That seems like making it the blameless woman’s fault/problem/job to fix, though, which is messed up. Perhaps encourage men to notice and say, “Dude that ain’t cool, can’t you see she wants to keep reading? She has a right to do that.” but that seems like encouraging men to act stereotypically protective.

Also harkens to the PUA tactic getting a friend to be an ass, so you can Win Her Admiration By Standing Up For Her. (and then sex, of course.)

Gah!

Comment #450: gigglesmcfee  on  12/31  at  05:58 PM

Perhaps begin a fake PUA campaign that has actually legitimately good advice, so guys interested in getting laid ACTUALLY learn to treat women like (GASP) people.

“What you should have learned in high school…”

Comment #451: gigglesmcfee  on  12/31  at  06:09 PM

I often get the feeling that anti-intellectualism is exaggerated, but since I used to think that about some misogynistic things, I could be oblivious. We have seen a large amount of bad things from supposed intellectuals recently, though… *cough*
Comment #430: gigglesmcfee  on  12/31  at  12:43 AM

Careful.  If we start having *that* argument again we’ll hit 600 for sure.

KingElvis:  It’s the choice of target of “official rectitude” to mock that distinguishes the satirist from the snotty six year-old.  And when they’re teenagers and older, it gets old really fast.*

exholt

Comment #452: NY Expat  on  12/31  at  06:11 PM

I often get the feeling that anti-intellectualism is exaggerated, but since I used to think that about some misogynistic things, I could be oblivious. We have seen a large amount of bad things from supposed intellectuals recently, though… *cough*
Comment #430: gigglesmcfee  on  12/31  at  12:43 AM

Careful.  If we start having *that* argument again we’ll hit 600 for sure.

KingElvis:  It’s the choice of target of “official rectitude” to mock that distinguishes the satirist from the snotty six year-old.  And when they’re teenagers and older, it gets old really fast.

exholt, I’ve always been curious:  Which high school did you go to?  By way of sharing information, I went to Hunter (the surrounding neighborhood and private schools would have provided plenty of fodder for your class consciousness).

 

Comment #453: NY Expat  on  12/31  at  06:14 PM

Careful.  If we start having *that* argument again we’ll hit 600 for sure.

What, you don’t want to rehash elevator gate? =D

Comment #454: gigglesmcfee  on  12/31  at  06:24 PM

Actually, I thought you were referring to Obama (“He’s caving in and hippie-punching!” “Circular firing squad!”).  2012 is gonna be *so* much fun.

Couple of (hopefully) quick thoughts about your other comment, gigglesmcfee:  I realize that they have the same effect, but I think intent matters, and ignorance and entitlement are different from misogyny, if only inasmuch as it’s more likely that someone can be made aware of their blind spots.  It’s become trite, but I think of it in terms of the Ghandi quote:  They Ignore, then laugh, then fight, and then you win.  Ignorant/entitled people who aren’t actively hateful of women are on the earlier part of the spectrum.

To allay thoughts that I’m mansplaining:  I used to have the same reactions to accusations of entitlement, and it took some time, and people willing to listen to either me or similar guys questions (what you call a troll can actually be a good tackling dummy for those of is who don’t have the time or energy to put up with flaming, but have similar questions), to be more aware of how my behavior fit into very toxic societal attitudes.  So it’s a process, and throwing all guys into the Misogyny group doesn’t help, since it writes off a lot of guys who are potential allies, which is how we’ll get attitudes to change.

It also leads to the “things you should have learned in high school” thing, and “who’s job”?  I don’t know if Tragedy Of The Commons is appropriate:  It’s nobody’s specific job because it’s everybody’s.  As for high school, I’m fairly certain I befell a similar fate:  I did things so wrong, and it wasn’t anyone’s job to tell me otherwise, and they shouldn’t have felt responsible, either.  But if nothing changes…nothing changes.  One interesting article, on beginning to “unlearn” gender categorization at an early age: http://togetherforjacksoncountykids.tumblr.com/post/14314184651/one-teachers-approach-to-preventing-gender-bullying-in.

Anyway, gotta get going:  We’re getting ready for guests in an hour.  Happy New Year, everyone!

Comment #455: NY Expat  on  12/31  at  09:17 PM

“ignorance and entitlement are different from misogyny….throwing all guys into the Misogyny group doesn’t help, since it writes off a lot of guys who are potential allies, which is how we’ll get attitudes to change.”

What do you mean “we”?  Why are you involved in this decision now?

And who are you seeing saying “all men go in the Misogyny group”? 

The ignorance we see is the ignorance that one is acting in an entitled and misogynist way.  The entitlement and misogyny is still there, and they still have a harmful effect on women.

Intent may matter in terms of maybe getting a person to stop doing what he’s doing, but it makes no real difference to those suffering from it.

So boo hoo on misogyny and entitlement being called out for what it is.  Soft-pedaling it just means men think it’s not such a big deal and they have similar problems with women not handing over the pussy and both sides are equally to blame and can’t we all get along?

Comment #456: oldfeminist  on  12/31  at  10:23 PM

Doing my part to hit 500 ...

Two days ago, I was in the waiting room at the doctor’s office, reading to my baby. The place was deserted when we came in, so why not?

But a guy walked in about five minutes into it and immediately had to ask me what I was reading, why I was reading it to the baby and why I’d waste my time reading to my baby at all. Rapid fire questions, all of them. Jesus.

Comment #457: Ticky  on  12/31  at  11:03 PM

exholt, I’ve always been curious:  Which high school did you go to?  By way of sharing information, I went to Hunter (the surrounding neighborhood and private schools would have provided plenty of fodder for your class consciousness).

Ended up going to one of the NYC Specialized High Schools…..the same one Pam Spaulding, one of the Pandagonian bloggers attended. 

I do know the neighborhood somewhat due to having high school/college classmates from there and because a younger cousin attended one of those private schools after deciding she didn’t care for the academic emphasis(STEM) nor the highly competitive “sink or swim” academic environment.

Comment #458: exholt  on  12/31  at  11:09 PM

Momentum slowing down, but we still may make it.

Ticky - your doctor or the baby’s doctor.  Anyone who asks that in Pediatrician’s office ought to get it with both barrels; though the usual asshole applies to him either way.

NY Expat - if you feel sorry for the asshole interupting and hassling, it’s your job.  Don’t expect the people being harrassed to feel sympathy.

old feminist - intent may get someone able to change over the long term, but not only does it make no difference to the suffer, it isn’t likely to change with a gentle explaination, or even and ungentle one, and they damn well don’t deserve it from the people being harrassed.  As you said.  In other words - upvote to 458!

Comment #459: helen w. h.  on  12/31  at  11:25 PM

I’m wondering whether the literature interruptus is a PUA tactic. This doesn’t happen to me now that I’m middle-aged (and therefore invisible to men), but when I was young and slender, it was a daily occurrence for me on the train to work. I’d be more likely to be left alone if I wasn’t reading, but often the comment was “What’cha readin?” like they couldn’t see the cover of the book, so mostly I’d just raise an eyebrow and lift the book slightly to make it obvious they could see it, and I wasn’t going to talk. That, of course, would set off the “I was only tryin’ to talk to ya, stuck-up moll!” BTW, this is in Australia.

Comment #460: Crass  on  01/01  at  12:04 AM

@ 461—We go to a family practice, but it was her appointment.

Comment #461: Ticky  on  01/01  at  12:43 AM

When we would go to a park, playground or whatever, or on the bus to get to them, I would read.  I had just been given the entire LotR series, in hardcover, and hauled a volume from that with me.  The counselors were very upset; complained I was anti-social; called my mother in to discuss my “problem”.

helen w.h.,

Those counselors sound like some members of my extended family who’d fit right in with the upper-middle class West Coast suburban chapter of US anti-intellectuals.

Comment #462: exholt  on  01/01  at  01:05 AM

upper-middle class West Coast suburban chapter of US anti-intellectuals.

Let me guess, they’re based in the suburbs like Menlo Park,  Palo Alto, Los Altos, Cupertino, Alhambra, Glendale, San Marino, etc.

Am I right?

Comment #463: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  01:18 AM

http://adviceongirls.com/where-to-meet-girls/ has as the first three locations to meet a girl places where people go to read, and their reasoning sounds familiar:

Coffee Shops
This is by far, my favorite place to meet girls because it is so easy. Most people go to coffee shops to be sociable – yes even the girl that is sitting by herself quietly reading her book. Think about it. If she wanted to be alone to read, she could read in the privacy of her home or go to library. Why then did she choose a noisy coffee shop? Because she want to be sociable. In fact, she’s probably like you hoping she will run into someone she can date. Coffee shops are the new bars of the 21st century!

The Book Store
Like the coffee shop this is an excellent place to meet girls. Here you’ll find many girls hanging out and reading books and magazines. Again, if they wanted to be alone they would read at home. Many girls at book stores want to be sociable. The best thing about meeting a girl here is that there are plenty of things to talk about – the new releases, the latest issue of a magazine, or the book she’s holding! Big book stores, like Borders or Barnes & Noble, have coffee shops within the stores – double bonus!

The Library
Similar to book stores, libraries – specifically college libraries – are a great place to meet girls. If you’re in college and looking for a date, make it a point to study in at your college library and not your dorm room. Not only do college libraries have all the benefits of a book store, they have more hot college chicks!

Barf.

Comment #464: oldfeminist  on  01/01  at  03:53 AM

If she wanted to be alone to read, she could read in the privacy of her home or go to library.

The Library

what is this I don’t even
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*

Crass @ 462 (and oldfeminist)—
That’s a good point.

PUAs advise men to always wear or have something that’s very easy to start a conversation about, so any interested woman won’t have to think too hard to come up with something to say upon approaching. It would not surprise me in the least if books being held by women (obviously the reading is fake!) are seen as just that—- as opposed to books (being read).

Other thoughts -

I think NY expat is making the point that telling someone they’re misogynistic makes the defensive barriers go way up way fast (“What!? I’m not misogynistic! How can I be? A girl in high school once told me she thought I had and older sister because of how I treated her!”*), whereas gently leading them to the conclusion that some of their behaviors are born out of entitlement and selfishness, and thus are identical to misogynistic ones, could be more likely to change them. Not that there is anything wrong ever with anyone calling them out on it; and that might also work, so, bonus. I really don’t know, although I would like to.

I think we all agree that figuring out intent, while not at all helpful to a given harassed woman, could be useful in changing behaviors and minds. I’m young/naive enough to still occasionally think I can help the world be a better place, and would like to do…. something….

I’m tempted to comment on that terrible, terrible website you found, oldfeminist, but I’m also a bit of a wimp.

* I’m not making this up.

Comment #465: gigglesmcfee  on  01/01  at  04:40 AM

NY Expat:
That’s an adorable article, and I say that without connotations of less important because feminine!
=p

oldfeminist:
The website you found is getting more terrible.

Grocery Stores
... Single people have to eat like everyone else. The next time you’re shopping for groceries be on the lookout for a girl that looks single – single serving meals in her basket, isn’t buying condoms, and isn’t buying a case of beer (if she has a case of beer or condoms, it probably means she has boyfriend).

‘cause women never drink beer.
(and never have casual sex.)


http://adviceongirls.com/how-to-start-a-conversation/

The first step is to act quickly

When you see a girl that interests you, act quickly. Go right up to her and start a conversation. Never stall…. be a man and walk right up to the girl and start talking.

read: don’t even both to check if she’s interested.

Talking props
You know what a stage prop is right? It’s an object (furniture, books, plants, etc.) that help the audience know exactly where the scene takes place. The actors interact with these props. Talking props are objects that help you interact with the girls you meet. For instance, that book she’s holding is a talking prop – tell her it looks interesting and ask her what it’s about.

emphasis mine.

*headdesk*

I’m getting a picture of guys running around promising other guys that THE BEST WAY EVAR to meet women is to ask them about their books!

*headdesk*

Completely tangential: as someone who has worked in theatre for years, his definition of prop is totally completely wrong. Well, I guess a prop is an object. He got that right.

My favorite:

You notice she’s holding a book on image editing techniques. Go up to her and say, “I hear that’s a good book. What are you looking to edit?”

“Uuh, images.”

Comment #466: gigglesmcfee  on  01/01  at  05:03 AM

Happy New Year!

oldfeminist, you’re saying that interrupting women while reading is in the Nice Guy handbook?!  No wonder.

NY Expat, there’s no tragedy of the commons here.  It’s not “nobody’s specific job because it’s everybody’s” to educate them.  Once they reach the age of reason, it’s the responsibility of each person to educate themselves.  There was a great post at Fugitivus: http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/a-few-things-to-stop-doing-when-you-find-a-feminist-blog/

Her answer to point #6 directly applies.  Or in other words, another upvote to #458.

Comment #467: Nimravid  on  01/01  at  05:40 AM

Come on, punky morns, we need your humorous insight to get this thread to 500!

Comment #468: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  08:23 AM

Following the logic of literature interruptus being a PUA tactic, that would also explain the hostility and anger from the dickheads who think they are entitled to attention. Goddamn it, they put their dollar in the Coke machine, and no delicious bubbly beverage was decanted! Robot-woman is clearly malfunctioning by not immediately dropping to her knees and opening her mouth.

Comment #469: Crass  on  01/01  at  09:04 AM

Delurking to throw in my own “readingus inturruptus” tale.

On. The. Bus. 

Or. The. Train.

Damn near All. The. Time.

Years ago, when I took public transit in Atlanta for everything, it was a true pain in the ass.  No matter how engrossed I looked, no matter if I was reading or writing, no matter if I was wearing my headphones, no matter even if I was dressed nice for work, or in my “anti-street harassmess” frumpy clothes (which barely worked),  some mother’s child would somehow take that as a signal that I really, really REALLY needed a friend to take me away from the sheer boredness of *gasp* reading!

You know, because I couldn’t possibly be extremely socially anxious and these were my methods to get through being in a large, usually crowded metal box full of people.  Nope.

Comment #470: KnottyMissN  on  01/01  at  09:26 AM

...and to further add (helping to get the thread to 500 smile )  I am a lifelong bookworm.  I’d have a book or a journal with me while I washed dishes, while I ate, during large family gatherings and that was seen as a Bad Thing.  Or worse, the act of a Snob.

“Aren’t we good enough for your attention?” was the gist of the complaints I’d get before I was ordered to put the offending object away and go interact, usually by chasing after a bratty younger sibling or cousin so the grown ups could forget they made so many of us for a few hours.  Sadly, it only made me feel even more anxious with an extra topping of alienated from said family unit. 

Comment #471: KnottyMissN  on  01/01  at  09:32 AM

Excuse me. I just read through the whole thread (I know, but it had that car crash quality to it) and I don’t think I once saw Funky crack off a funny.

Are we sure he’s some kind of pro gag writer?

Comment #472: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  01/01  at  11:30 AM

Lee - No, but I could believe he writes for some of the trite lame-assed shit we see on tv.  Though I’m having a bit of trouble the more he goes on.

Comment #473: helen w. h.  on  01/01  at  11:59 AM

@468 -
The last one, OMG! ask the girl what to get your female freind for her birthday because you don’t know anything about women’s clothes, she is likely to help, especially if she works there.  Yeah, and will be so thrilled that you are wasting her time pretending to want to buy something as a pick up technique?  Right, especially if she gets base plus commission or just commission.  What a total asshole move.
And repeating twice to not use pick up lines?  So totally oblivious to the thing that makes THEM offensive being the stupid repetition, the butting in, the total inanety ... like all these fake conversation starters only used to get things going with the girl (the goal or object is the girl, of course), not because the advisee is actually interested in the subjects.

Comment #474: helen w. h.  on  01/01  at  12:09 PM

Let me guess, they’re based in the suburbs like Menlo Park,  Palo Alto, Los Altos, Cupertino, Alhambra, Glendale, San Marino, etc.

Am I right?

Yep…..along with some in suburbs around Honolulu. 

...and to further add (helping to get the thread to 500 )  I am a lifelong bookworm.  I’d have a book or a journal with me while I washed dishes, while I ate, during large family gatherings and that was seen as a Bad Thing.  Or worse, the act of a Snob.

“Aren’t we good enough for your attention?” was the gist of the complaints I’d get before I was ordered to put the offending object away and go interact, usually by chasing after a bratty younger sibling or cousin so the grown ups could forget they made so many of us for a few hours.  Sadly, it only made me feel even more anxious with an extra topping of alienated from said family unit.

Ha! Some of my West Coast relatives would actually be seeing red at having anyone come to a family gathering or a party they’re hosting with a book/journal/any other “anti-social object of distraction/pleasure”.  If I or any of my cousins…regardless of gender did that, they’d not only be given a harsh lecture about being anti-social….their parents would be receiving a lecture about the “dangers of raising a maladjusted anti-social bookish misfit”.  And yes, I and several of my more intellectually inclined cousins experienced those lectures firsthand.  rolleyes

Was more disheartening…though educational in a social context to find that most IME tend to subscribe to those relatives’ view of etiquette when it comes to being a guest at someone’s party/family gathering.  For them, even bringing a book or any other “anti-social object” is rude enough….much less actually using it.

Comment #475: exholt  on  01/01  at  01:42 PM

Except for Palo Alto, none of the cities mentioned are near any centers of higher learning, so that’s part of your problem right there, don’t cha think?

 

Comment #476: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  01:55 PM

Except for Palo Alto, none of the cities mentioned are near any centers of higher learning, so that’s part of your problem right there, don’t cha think?

Actually, the suburbs they’re located in are close to Berkeley…though being near a center of higher learning doesn’t necessarily mean much.  I’ve met plenty of folks with their mentality here in NYC and in Boston….and they both have dozens of colleges/universities. 

Conversely, I’ve known of friends with families living far from any center of higher learning and yet, respect those who pursue book learning…including the reading of books and would take great umbrage at anyone who thought it was ok to interrupt someone reading in public.

Comment #477: exholt  on  01/01  at  02:18 PM

None of those cities are that far from Stanford.  Or SCU.  Or San Jose State, or half a dozen other tiny private colleges.

And I am a bookworm, and still think it is rude to bring a book to a party, unless something like a social anxiety disorder applies.

Comment #478: Ismone  on  01/01  at  02:39 PM

The Library
Similar to book stores, libraries – specifically college libraries – are a great place to meet girls. If you’re in college and looking for a date, make it a point to study in at your college library and not your dorm room. Not only do college libraries have all the benefits of a book store, they have more hot college chicks!

The few who tried this during my college years would suddenly find himself immediately confronted by a library staffmember/security guard and escorted/kicked out of the library (sometimes forcibly).  If done multiple times, some colleges would either ban them from the premises and/or place them on judicial suspension for violation of library/college rules. 

Unfortunately, I’ve noticed colleges/universities seem to have gotten much more lax about maintaining a quiet hassle-free environment within the last decade…..and current undergrads seem much more willing to cop a ‘tude with the library staff/security guards compared to the ‘90s.

Comment #479: exholt  on  01/01  at  02:47 PM

Actually, the suburbs they’re located in are close to Berkeley

What suburbs?  Emeryville, Kensington,  Contra Consta County?

I’ve met plenty of folks with their mentality here in NYC and in Boston….and they both have dozens of colleges/universities.

upper-middle class West Coast suburban chapter of US anti-intellectuals

Ah, but before you labeled it a West Coast phenomenon, so you’re not really telling us the straight story other than what is based on your anecdata.

I’ve known of friends with families living far from any center of higher learning and yet, respect those who pursue book learning

When you grow up across the street from an orange grove, or live out in the boonies, books offer so much more of an escape than the Friday night at the Hoot-n-Holler, IMHO, cities provide more sophisticated escapes that don’t strain one’s frontal lobes.

 

Comment #480: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  02:50 PM

Humor that doesn’t have a point isn’t funny.

I guess Amanda doesn’t like the Three Stooges.

I accuse people of being humorless all the time, sure, but that’s usually because they don’t understand the nuances of a joke.

I’m glad Amanda is here to explain these things for us nuance-challenged sexist men.  She’s not setting herself up as the arbiter of what is and isn’t funny and what the message of a piece of art is, she’s just helping us see all the nuances that we are too ignorant and/or evil to see for ourselves.

I loved the over-analysis of the sexist cartoon.  I’ll bet the artist never knew he put all that in there!  That’s what makes art so valuable and yet so dangerous:  the viewer will see all the ways the art confirms their interpretation of reality.  Someone on guard against the sexism rampant in the culture will see all the ways the art is sexist.  Someone who thinks women are superficial and vain will see that.  The cartoon succeeded in its main purpose:  to cause a reaction.  That’s what makes it good art.

Doing my bit for 500…

Comment #481: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  02:57 PM

None of those cities are that far from Stanford.  Or SCU.  Or San Jose State, or half a dozen other tiny private colleges.

People ask me when I went to college.  I tell them, I didn’t go to college, I went to San Jose State.

Tommy Smothers.

You think SCU is a center of higher learning? 

Comment #482: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  02:59 PM

liberalrob, in the future, please address/refer to her as “Mandy” or “Marcotte”, so as to make a more perfect Poe.

Comment #483: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  03:02 PM

What suburbs?  Emeryville, Kensington,  Contra Consta County?

The last one. 

Ah, but before you labeled it a West Coast phenomenon, so you’re not really telling us the straight story other than what is based on your anecdata.

I said that to denote they are a West Coast Chapter of a US-wide phenomena.  There’s certainly an East Coast Chapter….

And I am a bookworm, and still think it is rude to bring a book to a party, unless something like a social anxiety disorder applies.

For some…there’s only so much some can take if it is a mandatory family gathering/party where the main topics of conversation are limited to Division I college sports, drinking and other immature behavior stories by 40-60 year old relations recounting their frat/sorority days, fashion trends of those who can afford Gucci/Tiffanys, wealth oneupsmanship, etc…

And I say this as someone who many perceive as extroverted IRL and enjoy parties so long as they don’t limit conversational topics to the few dull choices I’ve listed above.

Comment #484: exholt  on  01/01  at  03:20 PM

in the future, please address/refer to her as “Mandy” or “Marcotte”, so as to make a more perfect Poe.

Insult fail, as I don’t get what you mean by “Poe.”  Though I doubt you were comparing me to old Edgar Allan…

I will refer to her as Amanda or as Marcotte.  Those are her names.  And while everything she wrote about the “nuances” of the cartoon may be accurate, I also think it’s accurate to point out that all that is probably far more than the artist intended to convey.  She attacked the cartoon as more than just a flip comment on superficiality; she made it this deep statement, and explained about how it is really a carefully considered four-pronged assault on women (“This cartoon is a sledgehammer, however, and can be treated as such.”).  This is no different from accusing Andres Serrano of purposefully and with malice aforethought attacking Christianity and Christian belief with his “piss-Christ” (another very successful piece of art).  Maybe he was, or maybe he was expressing how he felt some have treated the message of Christ.  People will read their own meanings into art, and Amanda is not immune.

AFAIK no one disagrees that what happened to the girl who posted the pic that started all this was reprehensible.  (It also is unfortunately unsurprising that it did, and it’s good to call that behavior out loudly and clearly.)  But once we start trying to explain the “nuances” of art we enter the realm of subjectivity, and by pointing out only negative connotations we implicitly call for censorship (that cartoon should not have been drawn that way, because it denigrates women).  Sometimes people see 9-pound iron sledgehammers where others see those plastic squeaky toy ones.

Comment #485: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  04:05 PM

Dark Avenger,

Eh, there are very few grad schools, if any, you cannot get into from SCU, and I could extoll certain specific programs, so yeah, close enough.

Not every school can be Stanford or an ivy.

Comment #486: Ismone  on  01/01  at  04:11 PM

*If* the artist didn’t intend for all those nuances to be present in the cartoon then I suspect it is only because the artist is so steeped in the misogynist tropes that those in this thread are pointing out that they don’t even notice those tropes anymore, like a fish doesn’t notice the water in which it swims.  It doesn’t have to be “malice.”  It could just be a failure to critically interrogate the broader culture.  Misogyny can be the trait of an individual who nurses a hatred of women but it can also be a feature of the SYSTEM in which individuals are situated.  And identifying instances of that systematic sexism is important, because it tends to slip under the radar, even to so-called “liberals” like yourself who would rather turn the conversation to be about you (“oh yes, explain to us ‘sexist men,’ Amanda, let’s make this a discussion about my hurt feelings”) instead of talking about the topic at hand.

Readers here likely take all that nuance for granted so I suggest you head over to http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/ before you go charging at anymore strawmen.

Because

(a) seriously they are really obvious.  If you don’t see Amanda’s interpretation as at least a very plausible one then you are being willfully blind

and

(b) the person who posted it wrote that they were looking for a thread in which it would be appropriate (and chose about the most virulently misogynist thread ever)

and

(c) the Internet in general and reddit in particular are very boys-club type spaces, especially susceptible to the type of systematic sexism I described above (in addition to the overtly sexist posters described in the original post). 

Finally, you have a computer machine hooked up to the Googles! Here’s what you would have found out about Poe if you had bothered to check!  http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe’s_Law

Comment #487: Aenea Lucrecia  on  01/01  at  04:27 PM

That said, I am actually having trouble telling if you are a very clever Poe on a second read, so if that was your plan in posting, apologies.

Comment #488: Aenea Lucrecia  on  01/01  at  04:29 PM

@liberalrob - “Insult fail, as I don’t get what you mean by “Poe.”” I’m so tickled by this!

@KingElvis - regarding the stress of reacting against rectitude producing jokes: I sort of agree, but my major disagreement is that the rectitude is just one type of stress that produces jokes. In the case of the cartoon the stress was not caused by the rectitude of feminist-PC-policing; seeing a girl with a book and opinions in a somewhat public space was a stressful situation for these sexists, therefore the comments. A grinning fifteen-year-old with fun skeptic book is hardly rectitudinous.Other non-rectitudinous situations: my sister cracking me up by making death jokes at a funeral. The stress factor was death. Or jokes in college about how to make a meal from condiments in the fridge b/c we couldn’t afford food. Stress = brokeness (“Mmmm… tastes like imagination!”). But I will say, the rectitude of guys who want to have a Very Serious Humor-Free Make-Out Time when I was younger always made me burst out laughing. There were some hurt feelings.

@Comment #473: KnottyMissN - That sucks that your family sees reading that way! I’m so lucky that I was preceded by two uncles who were so totally weird no one blinked an eye when I came along. I can only hope you’re that hero to some future generation of Knotty.

Comment #489: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/01  at  04:34 PM

atheist@400:

OK, but then you have to ask, why is r/Atheism, or any other apparently neutral social media, coded “male” to begin with? And if it somehow is, how did it get that way? I think it’s all the douchebags writing nasty shit about women.

No, it’s because for all of its early history, the Intertubes were overwhelmingly populated with males.  Significant female participation is a relatively recent phenomenon.  The douchebags weren’t always online, either; the online world was once the exclusive province of the nerdy scientist types.  Then AOL happened and everything went to hell…

Thanks for the pointer to Poe’s Law:

Outside of Web 2.0 the law is far less known and probably rarely used.

I am not aware of all Internet traditions.  This must be what getting old is.

Comment #490: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  04:49 PM

And I am a bookworm, and still think it is rude to bring a book to a party, unless something like a social anxiety disorder applies.
Comment #480: Ismone on 01/01 at 02:39 PM

There’s a big difference between a party among peers and a party you have to go to because everyone in the family is supposed to be there, like Thanksgiving or someone’s birthday or a barbecue. 

In my experience, the latter involves people bringing books, games, knitting or crocheting or other similar activities, because you’ll be at grandma’s house for six hours and there’s no expectation you will spend all of it in face-to-face time with people who are mostly not your age and may not care about anything you care about other than how Aunt Edna is doing.  Your hosts will be cooking and probably most of you will be watching a sports game or other TV event.  The introverts and sports avoidant can retire to a corner with a book and no one takes it amiss so long as they appear for the main event food or cake or whatever.

I’m not saying every family gathering is like that, but I think that’s one of the kind of parties where someone says “I always bring a book.”

Comment #491: oldfeminist  on  01/01  at  04:59 PM

I loved the over-analysis of the sexist cartoon.  I’ll bet the artist never knew he put all that in there!  That’s what makes art so valuable and yet so dangerous:  the viewer will see all the ways the art confirms their interpretation of reality.  Someone on guard against the sexism rampant in the culture will see all the ways the art is sexist.  Someone who thinks women are superficial and vain will see that.  The cartoon succeeded in its main purpose:  to cause a reaction.  That’s what makes it good art.

Doing my bit for 500…
Comment #483: liberalrob on 01/01 at 02:57 PM

But everyone who saw the cartoon on reddit knew exactly what it meant—women put their faces in the picture in front of the object (both versions share this characteristic) because they are attention whores, not because they are bad photographers.  They have a misguided idea that they are more important than the object and that this is what people want to see and should want to see in any picture that they post and this is annoying.

The person who created it is part of that culture and so it’s not silly to think that s/he has that same opinion.

Comment #492: oldfeminist  on  01/01  at  05:05 PM

But once we start trying to explain the “nuances” of art we enter the realm of subjectivity, and by pointing out only negative connotations we implicitly call for censorship (that cartoon should not have been drawn that way, because it denigrates women).  Sometimes people see 9-pound iron sledgehammers where others see those plastic squeaky toy ones.
Comment #487: liberalrob on 01/01 at 04:05 PM

Who is this “we” you are speaking of?  You’re not a feminist.

And you do realize that by criticizing feminist criticism you’re advocating its censorship?  Is that a clever ploy or just privilege blindness?

Comment #493: oldfeminist  on  01/01  at  05:13 PM

so-called “liberals” like yourself who would rather turn the conversation to be about you (“oh yes, explain to us ‘sexist men,’ Amanda, let’s make this a discussion about my hurt feelings”) instead of talking about the topic at hand…

My feelings aren’t hurt.  And I do consider myself a liberal.

*If* the artist didn’t intend for all those nuances to be present in the cartoon then I suspect it is only because the artist is so steeped in the misogynist tropes that those in this thread are pointing out that they don’t even notice those tropes anymore, like a fish doesn’t notice the water in which it swims.  It doesn’t have to be “malice.”  It could just be a failure to critically interrogate the broader culture.

Oh, I absolutely think it is; I’d almost bet money on it.  Which is what I was saying in my posts.  My problem is that Amanda apparently wants to blame the artist for not doing that critical interrogation before putting pencil to paper (or cursor to paint program); in fact she as much as accuses him (yes, I’m assuming the artist was male!) of willfully and purposefully making a sexist drawing with the four objectives she outlines.  She didn’t attack the water, she attacked the fish.  She’s yelling “evolve!” at it.  Which is one approach, I suppose…

Comment #494: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  05:14 PM

Who is this “we” you are speaking of?  You’re not a feminist.

Really, I need to define “we” for you?  We in this context means all of us, collectively.  Or the set of all Internet commentators who feel compelled to commentate on the nuances of art, if you want to be more restrictive.

And you do realize that by criticizing feminist criticism you’re advocating its censorship?

Censorship of art != censorship of ideology.  Which is to say, yes, but only to the extent that that feminist criticism advocates the censorship of art.  Or the self-censorship, in this case.  And speaking of clever ploys…

Comment #495: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  05:28 PM

The last one.

Yes, if one suspected the existence of a cultural black hole in California, that would be a likely candidate:

Lesher began in the approved manner, as a manic hick of the sort Americans are required to admire. He dabbled in sports, law and found a way to bother large numbers of people by interfering in local newspapers. Moving to California with the WW II, he grasped the simple rules of success in that boom state: schmoozing and real estate; and combined these by starting a newspaper, the Contra Costa Times, which practiced news by, for and of the suburban dormitories on the hot side of the hills. Lesher was among the first to see the suburban newspaper as a sedative-laced sales brochure rather than a news source, and with this business model he conquered. He grew with the burbs and became what passed for a great figure in that Lilliputian landscape, and championed fellow schmoozers who had benefited from California’s boom, notably Ronald Reagan, who gave him an award. By this time he was extremely rich, and used his money to promote the deification of wealth. When his first wife dropped away like a spent booster rocket, he married a cocktail waitress named Margaret who settled into the Lesher fortune and soon began to indulge in epiphanies. One such epiphany informed her that the Deity wanted her to fly to Manila to shore up the crumbling dictatorship of Ferdinand Marcos. Margaret Lesher followed the divine bidding, and published a series of hagiographic accounts of Saint Marcos, which were published in her husband’s newspaper a few weeks before Marcos was driven from office.

As for the scene you describe, it reminds me of this anecdote about Schopenhauer.

Ismone, I’m sure that’s true of Business school majors and the like, I worked with a guy who graduated from there and he was smart and nice, etc., but I’ve never seen it taken seriously like UCLA, which, in all fairness, is better at blowing their own horn that USC outside of sports and business studies grin

liberalrob, comparing criticism of a cartoon to the Piss Christ case is a bit extreme for a liberal, and btw, 2003 just called for you, it wants its’ cluelessness back.

To the Finland Station, comrades!

 

Comment #496: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  05:56 PM

Liberalrob, so you mean everyone everywhere?  I thought you were talking to the people who were criticizing the cartoon, which as I look at it, seem to all be feminists.  Either cast your lot in with us or not, but don’t try to dictate what feminists do by co-opting our discussions.

You said that criticizing the cartoon only negatively meant we were implicitly advocating censorship.  That’s a surprising claim that has yet to be proved, and I don’t accept it.  Many people will say that there are some ideologies or art that is totally shitty with no redeeming social value and yet it is protected by First Amendment (US) or other rights of free expression, and I am one of those people.

But then because this would torpedo your negative-only criticism of the kind of feminist criticism that sees nothing redeemable in a particular piece of art (you have to say something nice or you’re not allowed to say anything at all, how quaint!), you claim some definable difference between art and ideology. 

Does that mean that if I were to post a cartoon of this discussion that it would suddenly no longer be ideology but a cartoon?  Because the cartoon we’re discussing had words in it.

Comment #497: oldfeminist  on  01/01  at  05:57 PM

@Comment #492: liberalrob on 01/01 at 03:49 PM

atheist@400:

  OK, but then you have to ask, why is r/Atheism, or any other apparently neutral social media, coded “male” ...

No, it’s because for all of its early history, the Intertubes were overwhelmingly populated with males.  Significant female participation is a relatively recent phenomenon.  The douchebags weren’t always online, either; the online world was once the exclusive province of the nerdy scientist types.  Then AOL happened and everything went to hell…

That is an interesting historical argument about the internet, but I disagree that Reddit is “male social space” for these historical reasons. I think the reason is precisely due to the harassment that Ms. Marcotte has documented in this blog post. What else could prevent women from inhabiting social media and making it their own?

Comment #498: atheist  on  01/01  at  06:00 PM

Thanks for the response, Liberalrob.  Actually, I disagree, I don’t see Amanda attributing those 4 characteristics to the artist.  In the post Amanda said: “Let us count the ways that this cartoon is epically wrong.”  It seems to me that she is attacking the content of the text itself, not attributing intent to the unknown artist.  She also says things like “the cartoon assumes that” and not “the artist assumes that.” 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in re-skimming the original post I only see one reference to the author that comes before those 4 interpretive points: “The cartoonist probably thinks it’s “female” behavior because he only looks at pictures of women for very long, and forgets the dudes he saw do this.”  And this is more of an attempt at explaining the creation process that might have been behind the cartoon then an attribution of ideology to the artist.  And even then, she makes it clear that this is only a guess with the word “probably.”

AND the wider point of the post itself WAS to talk about the “water” of reddit.  We only got bogged down talking about the cartoon and its interpretation at length because of a troll :/

Anyway, I should take a tack out of Amanda’s book not attribute buthurtness to you based on your comment above.  But I must say that the text you produced does evoke in me the buthurtness professed by many a liberal man when confronted with feminist issues. 

You wrote: “I’m glad Amanda is here to explain these things for us nuance-challenged sexist men.”

and I read that as a sarcastic way of bringing the subject of discussion around to how mean it is for Amanda to imply that you or other men like you might be sexist for holding the position that you do on the cartoon rather then engaging with her critique of the cartoon and rethinking your position/privilege based on that critique and the critique mounted by the other feminists here.  This is a pattern that I’m sure many here have encountered in liberal circles and your original comment stoked that familiar annoyance in me.  If that wasn’t your intent, then I apologize for the extra layer of irritation that I’m sure showed in my original response to you.  BUT I do think that, given the context in which I encountered the text you created, my interpretation was at least plausible, just as Amanda’s interpretation remains important despite the intent of the original artist (which, again, I suspect WAS to sneer at women ANYWAY).

Comment 501 going meta up in here!!!

Comment #499: Aenea Lucrecia  on  01/01  at  06:32 PM

@ atheist #500: both/and!  smile

Comment #500: Aenea Lucrecia  on  01/01  at  06:33 PM

@liberalrob - The cartoon in question is being used to censor a fifteen-year-old-girl. Active censorship by a mob of bullies resulting in her—and probably many other women and some men—being effectively denied the use of a reasonably public publishing platform through harassment. And yet you are concerned that the cartoon is being censored? Please take a step back and consider your priorities. You may still be more concerned with the cartoon but please ask yourself: could there be a reason it seems normal and acceptable to gloss over the harassment and censorship of girls and women? Like oh, say, a sexist culture?

And criticism is not equal to a call for censorship nor is censorship implied. The cartoon was used, and probably conceived, as a social bludgeon, so pointing out that it is a bludgeon is more of a descriptive exercise. Art criticism, even at an individual level, is completely necessary to the development of art. Why is criticism so scary in this situation? If you really wanted to see freedom of expression flourish you could help by condemning bullying and lending your support to movements that support equality.

Comment #501: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/01  at  06:53 PM

Dark Chow Mein:

comparing criticism of a cartoon to the Piss Christ case is a bit extreme for a liberal

How so?  Amanda’s feminist analysis of the cartoon is almost perfectly analogous to the Religious Right’s analysis of the Piss Christ.  Both are based on interpretations of the meaning of the work that say more about the critic’s ideology than about the artist’s intent.

btw, 2003 just called for you, it wants its’ cluelessness back.

OK.  What’s so special about 2003?

atheist:

What else could prevent women from inhabiting social media and making it their own?

The question asked was why were online places coded “male” by default, not whether this was a good thing.  Why was digby considered male by default until she publicly outed herself?  How many people, if you asked them what George Eliot’s gender was, would answer correctly?  I am not and have never argued that there is no sexism.  There is gender harassment online and it is a bad thing.  Women should not be prevented from inhabiting social media and making it their own.  But history is history, whether you like it or not.  If Reddit is “coded male” it is because every online place historically has been coded male, because there simply weren’t many women online.  That is changing.

oldfeminist:

You said that criticizing the cartoon only negatively meant we were implicitly advocating censorship.  That’s a surprising claim that has yet to be proved, and I don’t accept it.

Accept or reject whatever you like.  It seemed pretty clear to me that she was directly attacking the artist for drawing that cartoon, not just the person who reposted it.

you claim some definable difference between art and ideology.

Yes.  Just as there is not necessarily a point to humor, art doesn’t necessarily carry some deep message.  One may attribute a message to it, but that is the attributor’s message.  It may or may not be the artist’s message.

Aenea:

It seems to me that she is attacking the content of the text itself, not attributing intent to the unknown artist.  She also says things like “the cartoon assumes that” and not “the artist assumes that.”

The cartoon did not draw itself.  Anything Amanda says about “what the cartoon assumes” is really about “what the artist assumes.”  She is most definitely attributing intent to the unknown artist.  And not only that, she is attributing that intent to anyone whose interpretation of the cartoon is different from her own.  Thus all the disclaimers about heading off “it’s just a cartoon” arguments and “attempts to deflect and silence the criticisms.”  Sorry, but she doesn’t get to do that by fiat, not if she wants to have an open discussion.  I don’t disagree that cartoons might have a deeper relevance and utility, in fact I believe quite the opposite.  I don’t disagree that the cartoon is sexist.  But I do disagree that it is intentionally maliciously so and that the artist drew it with malice aforethought.  He probably didn’t think about that aspect at all.  If Amanda had confined herself to criticizing that kind of thoughtless sexism I would have agreed wholeheartedly.  Instead she went into how this cartoon is evidence of cultural oppression and willful misogyny, another brick in the wall of patriarchy.

You wrote: “I’m glad Amanda is here to explain these things for us nuance-challenged sexist men.”

and I read that as a sarcastic way of bringing the subject of discussion around to how mean it is for Amanda to imply that you or other men like you might be sexist for holding the position that you do on the cartoon rather then engaging with her critique of the cartoon and rethinking your position/privilege based on that critique and the critique mounted by the other feminists here.

I don’t consider it mean, I consider it blinkered and dogmatic.  Amanda’s been making the same argument in different contexts for many years:  all instances of sexism are purposeful and calculated, done by misogynistic men (and misguided women) in support of patriarchy and to oppress women.  I disagree.  I also disagree with her definition of what constitutes humor, but that too is subjective.  And I find her statement “I accuse people of being humorless all the time, sure, but that’s usually because they don’t understand the nuances of a joke” to be very ironic coming from someone who has repeatedly berated others for making that exact argument.

In retrospect I probably shouldn’t have been sarcastic and I apologize for that.

Comment #502: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  10:29 PM

Part the second:

Mosey:

Please take a step back and consider your priorities. You may still be more concerned with the cartoon but please ask yourself: could there be a reason it seems normal and acceptable to gloss over the harassment and censorship of girls and women? Like oh, say, a sexist culture?

It is of course not “acceptable to gloss over the harassment and censorship of girls and women” and I hope the days of such treatment being “normal” are over.  But Amanda goes much further than necessary.

The cartoon was used, and probably conceived, as a social bludgeon, so pointing out that it is a bludgeon is more of a descriptive exercise. Art criticism, even at an individual level, is completely necessary to the development of art. Why is criticism so scary in this situation?

Because it is turning what was most likely intended originally as a humorous jab at a stereotypical gender quirk into a casus belli for culture war.  Should Scott Thompson have been criticized because his Buddy Cole character on “Kids in the Hall” furthered the stereotyping of homosexual men?  (He was.)  “Social bludgeon” is a pretty strong term to be throwing around.  When one talks of bludgeoning, it usually means the infliction of severe harm, possibly death.  Does this cartoon really rise to that level of harm?

<blockquote>If you really wanted to see freedom of expression flourish you could help by condemning bullying and lending your support to movements that support equality.

I do and I have.

Comment #503: liberalrob  on  01/01  at  10:38 PM

How so?  Amanda’s feminist analysis of the cartoon is almost perfectly analogous to the Religious Right’s analysis of the Piss Christ.  Both are based on interpretations of the meaning of the work that say more about the critic’s ideology than about the artist’s intent.

It’s how THE CARTOON WAS USED, liberalrob, not the artists intent.

The cartoon did not draw itself.  Anything Amanda says about “what the cartoon assumes” is really about “what the artist assumes.”

And that threatens men how?

Thanks for concern trolling here.

Comment #504: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/01  at  11:38 PM

Amanda’s feminist analysis of the cartoon is almost perfectly analogous to the Religious Right’s analysis of the Piss Christ.  Both are based on interpretations of the meaning of the work that say more about the critic’s ideology than about the artist’s intent.

And then Amanda called for censorship of the cartoon and shutting down reddit just like the Religious Right called for censorship of Piss Christ.

Oh wait, no, she didn’t.

It seemed pretty clear to me that she was directly attacking the artist for drawing that cartoon, not just the person who reposted it.

Even if that were true, you’re mixing up your arguments, maybe intentionally, just as you clearly intentionally did not address many of my questions. 

It doesn’t matter to your risible “not saying anything nice is the same as censorship” argument whether Amanda is “attacking” the cartoon or the artist.  You’re still just making an unsupported claim that someone making only a negative criticism of something or someone is implicitly calling for censorship of that something or someone.

Or maybe you’ve decided to back away from that?

Comment #505: oldfeminist  on  01/02  at  12:18 AM

Besides, as we have discussed before, the artist intent does not mean it is not sexist just because he did not consciously intend it so. 
The straightforward depections in the cartoon: men take pictures of objects they want to share; women take pictures of themselves blocking the object they want to share. 
Whether the artist intended it or not, it suggests that men take pictures of the object alone (as at least two nearly identically posed photos of men showing books they had received were posted at about the same time in the same place this is straight out disproved) while women take pictures of themselves either incompetently blocking out the object to share or purposefully blocking the object to share (the poster did neither). 
Either women are so incompetent they block the object or so vain the object is only an excuse to show themselves off.  Explain how that is not sexist.

Comment #506: helen w. h.  on  01/02  at  12:23 AM

This is before we even get to how it was used to rah-rah a thread of creep dudes talking about ass raping a 15 yo with blood and tears as lubricant as at least one said “going in dry”.  Really, you want to claim harmlessness here?

Comment #507: helen w. h.  on  01/02  at  12:24 AM

Amanda’s been making the same argument in different contexts for many years:  all instances of sexism are purposeful and calculated, done by misogynistic men (and misguided women) in support of patriarchy and to oppress women. 
Comment #504: liberalrob on 01/01 at 10:29 PM

I’d love to see you support this with direct quotes.

Comment #508: oldfeminist  on  01/02  at  12:26 AM

Amanda’s been making the same argument in different contexts for many years:  all instances of sexism are purposeful and calculated

Uh, no. That’s absolutely not what she or basically any feminist author of any significance has been saying. Ever. You should probably learn some reading comprehension, because the thing where you come into a discussion and loudly proclaim some 101-level idea that everyone else has already way covered like it is a new thing that totally refutes whatever straw-arguments you think they’re making, it is really fucking annoying.

It is of course not “acceptable to gloss over the harassment and censorship of girls and women” and I hope the days of such treatment being “normal” are over.

They aren’t. This is what we are trying to tell you.

Also, your “If people don’t have free license to bully people and never get criticized for it, that is CENSORSHIP and THE END OF ART” argument is old. We have all heard it a million times, and it continues to be wrong every time.

Not all art is good art. As Twisty Faster put it in that big weird blow-up about art last year, some art is embiggening, some art is ensmallening, and some art is neither. Pointing out that ensmallening art is shitty, and the world would be a better place if people did not hold the sort of ignorant and hateful assumptions that leads them to think that ensmallening art is totally awesome, and therefore the world was less full of stupid and bigoted propaganda, is not a call for censorship. It is a call for people to actually suck less, so that they will have less shitty and hateful ideas to express when they fully and freely express themselves. That is the goal.

Comment #509: thecynicalromantic  on  01/02  at  12:49 AM

liberalrob - “The cartoon did not draw itself.  Anything Amanda says about “what the cartoon assumes” is really about “what the artist assumes.””

You may be interested to read the essay “Death of the Author,” by Roland Barthes, which has had an enormous impact on art criticism since the 1960’s. It basically argues that art should be criticized independently of the artist’s intentions and lays out the case very well. In this well-established critical vein claiming that Amanda therefore has to be speaking about the cartoonist personally is a strawman which you may knock down to your heart’s content.

“Amanda’s been making the same argument in different contexts for many years:  all instances of sexism are purposeful and calculated, done by misogynistic men (and misguided women) in support of patriarchy and to oppress women.”

Yeeeahhhh… that’s more like a straw civilization. Actually she as clearly written, over and over, that we live in a culture of sexism and misogyny—CULTURE—and feminist sites make it clear that when sexism is the result no one gives a crap about the intent. You bet that commenter and that fifteen-year-old girl knew exactly what that cartoon meant in that situation, and she shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells wondering what the intent of the cartoonist is and if her experience of sexism reflects badly on the cartoonist. But the adults, the responsible people who see this happen are just supposed to not talk about it? The post was triggered by the experience of sexism and censorship that actually happened to a girl, not the eeeevil intents of a cartoonist.

Sure, Amanda calls out individual people, for things they actually do. And she links it to current events, history, science facts, other things that person has also done. It’s criticism.

“Does this cartoon really rise to that level of harm?” Yeah, I actually consider a mob harassing a child until she learns, for perhaps the first time, that she isn’t regarded as a normal person, to be a big fucking deal. That kid has learned, and learned fast, and it could very likely affect other parts of her life in a big way. If you find a clever way to say, “shut up,” and it works, then yes, it’s a very powerful tool.

“Because it is turning what was most likely intended originally as a humorous jab at a stereotypical gender quirk into a casus belli for culture war.”

No. The criticism of this cartoon did not turn the situation into culture war. The culture was already at war: witness the reddit thread. This criticism pointed it out.

Comment #510: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/02  at  12:56 AM

I finally got it. The vast majority of men interrupting women reading situations are the same “Dance Monkey Dance” misogynistic bullying scenarios as the unwanted demand to “Smile!” made on some woman unlucky enough to be passing by. Not the “Oh, I see we have something in common” sincere one.

Dark Avenger: at least Obama likes Santa Clara grads, hiring Leon Panetta for two different jobs, and Janet Napolitano for one. Further, though I realize Janet’s previous job, Governor of Arizona, has a low barrier to entry, still it impresses many people. There are some spoiled rich kids who couldn’t get into Stanford who go there—the average SAT score matches that of the Cal Polys, between Stanford/U of C and the Cal State system.

Comment #511: Hector B.  on  01/02  at  01:01 AM

It’s how THE CARTOON WAS USED, liberalrob, not the artists intent.

Unfortunately for you, Dark Chow Mein, I haven’t been talking about how the cartoon was used.  We are (or at least I was) talking about the artist’s intent in drawing it in the first place, because Amanda criticized the cartoon itself.

And that threatens men how?

Beats me.  I never said it threatened men, or that that was even an issue.

Explain how that is not sexist.

No need, I already said it was.  But is it also reducing women to sex objects? 

Really, you want to claim harmlessness here?

I’ve already spoken to that.

You’re still just making an unsupported claim that someone making only a negative criticism of something or someone is implicitly calling for censorship of that something or someone.

Fine.  Explain to me how, in a feminist world, that a drawing that a) depicted an action “coded female” as culturally inferior to a similar action “coded male”; b) presented such a “coded female” action in a “no-win” light; c) “blamed the victim” for the “coded female” action, presumably because they were female and performed the action; and d) “reduced women to sex objects” because the only reason to draw a female performing a “coded female” action is to create masturbatory material; explain how that drawing would not draw an instant avalanche of calls for it to be removed anywhere it was posted.

Or if you find that too hypothetical, explain to me how criticizing a work of art for being an incitement to violation of the human rights of women is not a call for its censorship.

I’d love to see you support this with direct quotes.

Yes, because you’ve never seen her make these arguments before in all the years we’ve both been here.

Comment #512: liberalrob  on  01/02  at  01:17 AM

Plenty of art that is commonly agreed to be an “incitement to violation of the human rights,” is freely available for viewing: Birth of a Nation, for example. Should I not criticize the film?

Comment #513: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/02  at  01:29 AM

Explain to me how, in a feminist world, that a drawing that a) depicted an action “coded female” as culturally inferior to a similar action “coded male”; b) presented such a “coded female” action in a “no-win” light; c) “blamed the victim” for the “coded female” action, presumably because they were female and performed the action; and d) “reduced women to sex objects” because the only reason to draw a female performing a “coded female” action is to create masturbatory material; explain how that drawing would not draw an instant avalanche of calls for it to be removed anywhere it was posted.

That didn’t happen in the reddit thread.  It hasn’t happened here.

Comment #514: oldfeminist  on  01/02  at  01:46 AM

  I’d love to see you support this with direct quotes.

Yes, because you’ve never seen her make these arguments before in all the years we’ve both been here.
Comment #514: liberalrob on 01/02 at 01:17 AM

Then if it’s so easy to find go find it.

Comment #515: oldfeminist  on  01/02  at  01:49 AM

How is it possible FauxLiberal Mansplainer hasn’t been stick ruled yet? his posts are always exactly the same “stfu bitchez, my teeny weeny is the fount of all knowledge!”

*snore*

Comment #516: Rare Vos  on  01/02  at  02:21 AM

cynicalromantic:

the thing where you come into a discussion and loudly proclaim some 101-level idea that everyone else has already way covered like it is a new thing that totally refutes whatever straw-arguments you think they’re making, it is really fucking annoying.

I read the thread before I posted.  No one said much about the cartoon itself, most of the talk was about the reddit forum and the nature of humor.

Also, your “If people don’t have free license to bully people and never get criticized for it, that is CENSORSHIP and THE END OF ART” argument is old. We have all heard it a million times, and it continues to be wrong every time.

That is not my argument.  No one has a free license to bully. 

It is a call for people to actually suck less, so that they will have less shitty and hateful ideas to express when they fully and freely express themselves. That is the goal.

I have no problem with that.  “This cartoon assumes that the only value that the image of a woman might have is sexual” and “This cartoon is a sledgehammer” (of cultural misogyny, presumably) are going pretty far beyond that.

Mosey:

In this well-established critical vein claiming that Amanda therefore has to be speaking about the cartoonist personally is a strawman which you may knock down to your heart’s content.

Is that well-established (if nevertheless obscure, at least to me) critical vein the one in which Amanda made her statements?

You bet that commenter and that fifteen-year-old girl knew exactly what that cartoon meant in that situation, and she shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells wondering what the intent of the cartoonist is and if her experience of sexism reflects badly on the cartoonist.

Again, I’m not talking about how the cartoon was being used in that situation.  I agree that that was deplorable.  I’m talking about that part of Amanda’s criticism that was directly addressed to the cartoon itself.  If you want to argue that the two are inseparable or that Amanda did not directly criticize the cartoon itself, and by extension the artist, all I can say is that’s not how I read her post.

oldfeminist:

That didn’t happen in the reddit thread.  It hasn’t happened here.

Neatly dodging the hypothetical, which said nothing about reddit or here.

Then if it’s so easy to find go find it.

Are you saying I won’t be able to find any?

Comment #517: liberalrob  on  01/02  at  04:01 AM

Plenty of art that is commonly agreed to be an “incitement to violation of the human rights,” is freely available for viewing: Birth of a Nation, for example. Should I not criticize the film?

By all means, criticize away.  But criticize it with a sense of perspective.  This cartoon was not Birth of a Nation.

Comment #518: liberalrob  on  01/02  at  04:16 AM

Rare Vos, this thread has already passed 500 comments and is several days old.  Most people aren’t reading it anymore.  Feel free to join them.

Comment #519: liberalrob  on  01/02  at  04:22 AM

Dark Avenger: at least Obama likes Santa Clara grads, hiring Leon Panetta for two different jobs, and Janet Napolitano for one.

Yes, Panetta is the one who said that he thought the Iraqi war was worth it, and I doubt that he and Napolitano were hired on the basis of where they went to school as undergraduates, there is just as strong a case that he hired them based on their Italian-American background.

This cartoon was not Birth of a Nation.

Thank Thor you’re here to mansplain how that cartoon didn’t mean anything, liberalrob.

Comment #520: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/02  at  09:26 AM

How many times will liberalrob claim the cartoon is unimportant, ignore the answers, and make the claim anew? He argued the cartoon was just a jab and Amanda made it into culture war. Refuted, not addressed by him. He argued the cartoon was not a “social bludgeon,” the term is too harsh, didn’t address the answer. Argued that the film is not “Birth of a Nation,” “But criticize it with a sense of perspective.” But perspective is not why the film was brought up: it is to point out that condemnation isn’t tantamount to implicit censorship. Indeed, if you apply “perspective,” if the film is still freely available despite being roundly condemned surely a little “humorous jab” would survive criticism from a blogger?

Comment #521: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/02  at  12:57 PM

oldfeminist:

  That didn’t happen in the reddit thread.  It hasn’t happened here.

Neatly dodging the hypothetical, which said nothing about reddit or here.

  Then if it’s so easy to find go find it.

Are you saying I won’t be able to find any?
Comment #519: liberalrob on 01/02 at 04:01 AM

I “dodged” your hypothetical with ... reality.  How cowardly of me, to live in the real world instead of participating in your made-up fear fest.

And I think you answered your own question.  If you could have found such an example you surely would have posted it by now.

Comment #522: oldfeminist  on  01/02  at  01:57 PM

“No one has a free license to bully.”

Sure they do, when it’s part of free expression. 

It’s just that when that bullying takes place, other people can step in and respond. 

And no one has the right to bully on another person’s dime.  So people who say really shitty things might find themselves relegated to the bit bucket on a particular blog if the blog owner doesn’t like it.

Hmmm….are you afraid no one’s going to see your comments here any more once we all “bully"you into silence with our mean, mean downvotes?  Are you thinking this is your last hurrah?

Doesn’t have to be.  You can start your own blog if you like.  There are plenty of misogynist “liberal” men out there who would join you in deploring how far women have been allowed to go.  Why, they can criticize art without having to say something nice about it, too!  That’s CENSORSHIP!!!!!!!111!!!!ONE!!!!!  I’m sure you will have Pandagon levels of traffic in NO TIME.

Just be ready to post everyone’s comments on your own blog, no matter how insulting they are to anyone or anything.  Unless you want to look like a fucking hypocrite.

Comment #523: oldfeminist  on  01/02  at  02:07 PM

Unrelated to this thread, but I think it deserves more attention than is seems to be getting generally:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-politicians-decry-ultra-orthodox-protesters-use-of-holocaust-imagery-1.404855

That was the “counter-protest” to the growing protests to how women and girls are being treated by Ultra-Orthodox on the streets of towns like Beit Shemesh:

http://m.forward.com/blogs/sisterhood-blog/148571

To me, this lays bare the hypocrisy of Fox News types who scream “Sharia Law”, but make common cause with these same Ultra-Orthodox who impose “modestly laws” on any woman they see.  The cries of victimhood by the victimizers that reach these depths is just the cherry on top.

Comment #524: NY Expat  on  01/02  at  02:28 PM

Thanks for bringing up Barthes, I was about to go there myself!

Actually liberalrob does a great job explaining how the TEXT ITSELF might make certain assumptions that the author did not have when he says:  “But I do disagree that it is intentionally maliciously so and that the artist drew it with malice aforethought.  He probably didn’t think about that aspect at all.”  That would be one way in which Amanda’s attack on the cartoon and not the author could shake out.  Another way would be to say that the author intended to make some other statement and simply failed to implement that vision.  But, no, talking about a text does not necessarily mean talking about the intent of an author.  We are sophisticated enough that we can separate the two.  Nuance….

re: censorship.  Using my free speech rights to point out that a text calls for the violation of a group’s human rights is not the same as calling for its censorship.  In fact, that is the purpose of free speech: to let all views, even the most vile views, get let out into the air so that they can be argued over.  Hopefully people will then see the error of the vile viewpoints and they will expire naturally.  Free speech does not mean saying whatever you want and then everyone else has to listen politely.  Free speech means taking risks, putting yourself out there, etc.  Just like the girl bravely did in the reddit thread.  The men in that thread used their free speech rights to intimidate her, airing some pretty poisonous sexist views.  In THIS thread, we began by using our free speech rights to try to push back against those views.  That is NOT THE SAME as saying that the men in that thread should all be censored. 

Again, sometimes I think that the neglect of nuance that I see in threads like this is willful….

Comment #525: Aenea Lucrecia  on  01/02  at  02:36 PM

Jesus Christ, liberalrob, you have GOT to stop trying to use “I have no idea what you’re talking about” as some sort of refutation of other people’s arguments. You have done this at least twice just on this thread. Do you think someone is making shit up? If so, say that you think they’re making it up. Explain why you, personally, would expect to know about such-and-such thing if it were really true. Because you’re starting to come off as if your entire thought process is “You must be wrong, because it hasn’t occurred to me that I could possibly be ill-informed about anything whatsoever.”

You have already demonstrated that you have very low media literacy and cannot follow even a fairly simple deconstruction, and you have not pulled out any ridiculous credential claims along the line of funky something’s “but I am a comedy writer” as far as I have seen (although perhaps now you will claim that you are totally a university English professor?), so your lack of awareness of very well-established schools of criticism strikes me as completely unsurprising and in no way an argument that they don’t exist or are so amazingly obscure that regular people could not possibly know anything about it.

Also, I must ask, in regards to this sentence:

The douchebags weren’t always online, either; the online world was once the exclusive province of the nerdy scientist types.

Do you know very many nerdy scientist types?

Because I do. The idea that they, as a class, are less douchey than regular people is a myth they tell themselves in order to give themselves another thing to feel smug about. Many scientists are very nice, just as many non-scientists are very nice, but many of them are whiny, sexist jackasses. Setting up some sort of dichotomy between sciencey types and douchebags makes you look like you have no idea what’s going on even more effectively than if you had once again just straight-up written that you have no idea what’s going on.

Also, we are still waiting for you to pull up those links where Amanda stated that there is no such thing as unconscious sexism.

Comment #526: thecynicalromantic  on  01/02  at  09:21 PM

liberalrob @ 521 - wrong again.  also FO.

Comment #527: helen w. h.  on  01/02  at  09:42 PM

tcr @ 528 - Since about a month ago we had a long convoluted discussion of likely unconciously applied sexism in art (not going looking for the link, but it was around Thanksgiving), that’s be pretty easily refuted that Amanda and other people here think it doesn’t exist, if necessary.

Comment #528: helen w. h.  on  01/02  at  09:51 PM

If anyone is interested, the discussion was about bunnies.

Comment #529: helen w. h.  on  01/03  at  09:55 AM

532.

We smashed the 500 barrier.

This is a good omen. 2012 will be a great year.

Comment #530: KingElvis  on  01/03  at  12:00 PM

Really smashed it. 
Now it’s driving me crazy - Bunny toys posed to make up a 4 cell story board where the girl bunny is irrational religious nut and boy bunny is the seeking, questioning explorer who puts together the puzzle pieces.  The same you are reading to much into this, it probably wasn’t intentional (until someone posted the link from the creater where he said it was),  it’s just a stupid cartoon comments flew in. 
I know I was in Saigon, but as I’d had limited access to internet for about 2 weeks at that point, I don’t know if the post was from Nov or Dec.

Comment #531: helen w. h.  on  01/03  at  03:48 PM

I remember the discussion helen w. h..  I am thinking it was around Thanksgiving…Google google…

Here we go:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/24/yes-the-religion-and-science-conflict-only-cuter/

which was pointed to in

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/happy_thanksgiving

Comment #532: oldfeminist  on  01/03  at  11:18 PM

And the place where the cartoon creator said he intentionally chose that the religious stupid bunny is female is here.

Comment #533: oldfeminist  on  01/03  at  11:26 PM

Are we still going?

Here’s the post about the bunny cartoon where PZ says that unintentional sexism is still a problem (and then pukes over himself telling women to shut up about it anyway): http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/24/sometimes-a-bunny-is-just-a-bunny/

Comment #534: Nimravid  on  01/04  at  03:47 AM

Cool.  Thank you both.  I figured I remebered all that too well for it to be a figment of my imagination, but I was begining to wonder.

Comment #535: helen w. h.  on  01/04  at  10:29 AM

I don’t think we’ll get to 550, much less 600.
Funny how so many of those comments are so similar to these.

Comment #536: helen w. h.  on  01/04  at  10:31 AM

Or not, I guess.

Comment #537: helen w. h.  on  01/05  at  09:00 AM
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