Here’s a pretty awesome remix where Buffy meets Edward, and reacts to the “I want to
rape
own
control
kill you, it’s a compliment” rhetoric appropriately.
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I’ve never read Twilight or anything, but damn. I am in a book club, and the ladies in my club talk about Twilight and how their daughters love it and how they think it’s a great series.
That guy is a total rapist/stalker. I don’t get how that kind of behavior gets construed as romantic.
Because he wouldn’t want to kill/beat/control/rape you if he didn’t like you! Those are your choices—-violence or indifference.
In all seriousness, these strong cultural messages about how women, who are debased, should be lucky that anyone cares enough to want to control them is probably a big reason a lot of women stay with abusive men. You see it in the Twilight series—-the desire to control is reframed as “protectiveness”, even though the guy in question is a vampire whose urge to be “protective” blends right into the urge to control that’s so strong that snuffing her life out is attractive. She can’t do anything you don’t want if she’s dead, you know.
Love it. I started my niece and nephew on Buffy early on. They both love it. I’m going to send this to them.
Hey, my book club read Twilight too! I was the only one who hated it. And let me tell you, it’s been a really long time since I hated a book that much. Fail on every level. Romance fail (stalking/abuse). Vampire fail (Sparkles? Really?). Craft-of-writing fail (I think Ms. Meyer’s thesaurus is also being stalked and abused). My 12-year-old niece LOVES this series and I am thinking, in a couple more years, of getting her the first season of Buffy and seeing how that goes.
Man, few things are as awesome as a woman with appropriate boundaries. I miss Buffy. Also, we’ve all read at least a synopsis of Breaking Dawn, yes? The one where Bella drops out of school to have Edward’s baby at 18, refuses all medical aid that might hurt the fetus, and almost dies? Some more?
Good times.
I understand that there’s a British Vampire television miniseries that had an awesome episode in which a woman was carrying a Vampire Baby, was being pressured to abort by the Good Guys, Loved The Baby Too Much To Abort, ran off to a pregnancy crisis clinic, and when one of the religious nutjobs accidentally brushed her stomach with their crucifixes, the fetus aborted.
Too awesome.
Mighty Ponygirl, the series you are thinking of is Ultraviolet. Very little known, although it does star a couple of guys who later became a bit more famous (eg the guy who went on to become Stringer Bell). It only consisted of six episodes, which in UK terms is a fullish series, but I suppose from a US perspective would look like a mini-series.
The episode you are talking about is actually really harrowing and horrible, but yes, it features a desperate woman going to a pregnancy crisis centre where a miscarriage is caused by a crucifix. It ends with her bleeding to death in the arms of her now-vampire husband who is exploded by the Good Guys in short order. So not so much awesome.
Yawgmoth my niece is only 10 and I have been watching Buffy with her for a couple of years. Some may thing that’s too young, but she’s already reading Twilight thanks to her mom, so I’m glad I got there first. I watch it with both her and my nephew and they pepper me with a range of questions from “I thought Angel was dead” to “how come two girls are kissing”?
That’s okay because they’re going to be asking those questions no matter what.
Buffy was great…she’s the complete opposite of the girl in Twilight.
Katherine—the synopsis: pregnancy crisis godbags cause fetus to abort with their crucifixes—is 100% awesome, full stop.
And, Katherine—vampires are monsters. They’re bad, and hanging around them is bad. I miss the old days where they were embodiments of disease and not rotting sex machines. . . and how does that even work, anyway? But I digress.
These books are as misogynistic as all get-out.
Fantasy, despite its asinine critics complaints, is very useful for displaying what our culture happens to value—either by comparison or by example. Twilight’s popularity does not bode well for us.
The London Review of Books had a good comparison of Buffy and Twilight recently. Well, it’s really a review of the books and film, but Buffy inevitably comes up.
A few months ago, I wrote a little ficlet of Buffy encountering Edward, and staking him (first, though, Spike makes a disparaging remark about body glitter). This video is much, MUCH better than my story. Twilight, next to BtVS, looks so flat that it seems to haveless than one dimension, if that’s possible.
I dunno. I can’t help but remember Buffy’s actual relationship with Spike in Season Sux. Granted, the show itself portrayed it as horribly dysfunctional (personally, I always considered it to be a symptom of Buffy’s PTSD resulting from her being dragged out of Heaven and straight into a coffin), but no small number of fans considered it to be the most passionate, romantic relationship the show had yet seen. I can’t tell you how many fangirls I remember blaming Buffy for “driving” Spike to his rape attempt.
BTVS is better than Twilight by light-years, no doubt, but BTVS fandom doesn’t necessarily keep you from buying into the same bullshit.
YES! YES! YES! As a librarian who’s heard too damn much about Twilight, I enjoyed watching that so much that I need a cigarette now. Really puts the whole “stalking is romance” bullshit in its proper perspective.
Is there some kind of award for which we can nominate this video?
A friend just lent me the first 2 books in the Twilight series. Dear lord, they’re awful.
Summary:
1) Women are weak and confused and helpless.
2) Men are awesome and strong and all-powerful and they want to hurt women, which is the women’s fault.
3) Women are willing to be stalked, controlled and hurt by men if it means the man will love them.
4) Women need to give up their entire life to be with the man who has chosen them and they have no choice about the matter.
Book 2 continues the fun with 5) Women are dead inside and have no interest in life unless there is a man around who likes them.
Wow. Can’t wait to read the next book in the series.
Seraph, I like to pretend season 6 is bad fanfiction by the Rubel-Kuzai writing team. And then ignore it. Also, it ruined all Spike-related things forever; there’s a point beyond which I’m not interested in seeing things from a character’s point of view, and that would be it.
BadKitty, if nothing else, Book 4 is pretty clear on how items 1 through 4 are actually just a way to get yourself a house in the suburbs near your in-laws, after which your husband will fade gradually into a kind of unnoticed piece of furniture while you do the important work of raising children and trying to be as martyring as possible at all times.
no small number of fans considered it to be the most passionate, romantic relationship the show had yet seen. I can’t tell you how many fangirls I remember blaming Buffy for “driving” Spike to his rape attempt.
o.O that’s fucked up.
It depresses me how many of my students read Twilight. None of the boys do, but only one of the girls hasn’t read it. And the one who hasn’t read it is the only one who correctly identifies Edward’s behavior as that of a stalker.
The Season 6 rape attempt was a really cheap writer’s tool to pave the way for Spike being remorseful enough to go get his soul back. They coudln’t get there another way? Of course they could have and that’s why it was so cheap. I always meant to check if Whedon wrote that, I can’t believe he did. The entire premise that Buffy, even injured, would have trouble fighting Spike off was just not in character at all.
I don’t know any Buffy fans who blame Buffy for “driving” him to it, but I guess I’m not too surprised. A lot of young women seemed eager to blame Rhianna for getting beat up by her bf (“oh I heard she gave him herpes”). What a shame. I can’t tell you how many brawls I got into at the huffpo - a “liberal” site - over this shit.
Laterose, it seems to be popular among the young teen set for boys and girls.
Fortunately, parental lectures about the antifeminist content are also popular.
A woman friend of mine went to see the movie Twilight (I don’t remember if she read the book, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she had) and was explaining it to me, since I didn’t know much about it. I knew the basic premise, though, and my friend a remark to the effect of, “what teenage girl hasn’t dreamed about something like that?” Not having read much commentary on Twilight, I simply nodded my head, figuring she knew that of which she spoke.
I still haven’t read the book or seen the movie, and don’t have any plans to do either, so folks can take my thoughts with a grain of salt. That said, if the various analyses of the movie from a feminist viewpoint that I’ve read are accurate (and they sure look like it), it surprises me that my friend, who is a very smart and self-assured woman and pretty strongly feminist, wouldn’t see the flaws that others have pointed out.
Caton, the IMDB listing for that episode (“Seeing Red”) cites Whedon only as the series creator, which they still stick under the “writing” tag. It seems the episode was written by Steven S. DeKnight. Though a big thing like that was probably still run by Joss beforehand.
The entire premise that Buffy, even injured, would have trouble fighting Spike off was just not in character at all.
I’ve always been really disappointed to hear this said. Firstly, she does fight him off successfully, an ability that she has over most victims of sexual assault and rape, and secondly, why exactly should she not have trouble doing so? Lest we forget, Spike is set up as a seriousky hard vampire who has killed not one but two previous slayers. And Buffy should somehow be able to knock him sideways without breaking a sweat?
To me, the criticism I’ve seen of that all seems to imply that Buffy is too good to be raped, that only weaklings can be victims, which is really shitty to all the women out there who hhave been raped and weren’t able to fight of their attackers.
Wow, if those clips are at all representative Twilight is even more full of fail than I thought. Buffy on the other hand, rocks.
I don’t know any Buffy fans who blame Buffy for “driving” him to it, but I guess I’m not too surprised. A lot of young women seemed eager to blame Rhianna for getting beat up by her bf (“oh I heard she gave him herpes”).
That’s about right. Most of the victim-blamers tended to point to Buffy’s own violent, abusive treatment of Spike (which I considered to be another of her PTSD symptoms, and which Buffy herself recognized, and gave as one of her reasons for finally, definitively ending the relationship) or to the fact that Buffy had frequently changed her mind after saying “no” over the course of their relationship. This was pointed to as devaluing her “no”, of giving Spike the idea that refusal was just an invitation to more…vigorous convincing. An idea that would never have occurred to a soulless, predatory, blood-drinking night monster otherwise, of course.
All bollocks, of course. Like the young women who are eager to blame Rihanna, they’d rather blame the Bitch Who Doesn’t Appreciate Him than the wonderful, passionate man that they themselves want so badly (they’d know how to treat him right, and so wouldn’t have any trouble with him).
Ack! Reply eaten!
Honestly, I found the Spike Rape scene in Seeing Red (which we just re-watched over the weekend because angrymob hasn’t seen the last 2 seasons and I refuse to pay for them so we’ve been Netflixing, but I digress) to be less fucked up than the rest of the episode—seriously, re-watch the episode and be in AWE of the ham-fisted “look at how happy Willow and Tara are, look at how in love they are, they’re finally back together, OH NO STRAY BULLET!” plot device—something so hackneyed and overdone that even using it on two lesbians couldn’t breathe life into it. Buffy sitting on the bathroom floor after Spike assaulted her trying to figure out what just happened is fucked up, but how fucked up is the fact that Xander bursts in on her in the bathroom? I mean, I know the Scoobies are close, but damn. No knocking? What if she was on the toilet squeezing out a stubborn SlayerLoaf? Seriously. Fucked up. Oh, and Warren’s over-the-top male posturing… because we couldn’t just show him as being a misogynist, we have to make sure that every utterance out of his mouth reinforces that he’s got issues with women. Although kudos for not showing Jonathan and Andrew wincing when Buffy smashes Warren’s power testicles—sorry—“orbs”—on the pavement.
Horrible episode.
Still better than Twilight.
“Caton, the IMDB listing for that episode (“Seeing Red”) cites Whedon only as the series creator, which they still stick under the “writing” tag. It seems the episode was written by Steven S. DeKnight. Though a big thing like that was probably still run by Joss beforehand.
SuzanneM”
Whendon, as a show runner, has the last say for every script and has written at the very least a line for every single episode.
be in AWE of the ham-fisted “look at how happy Willow and Tara are, look at how in love they are, they’re finally back together, OH NO STRAY BULLET!” plot device—something so hackneyed and overdone that even using it on two lesbians couldn’t breathe life into it.
Quite the opposite, really, as it was followed by Whedon’s headlong plunge into the Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche.
As a straight adult male, I had a lot of trouble connecting with “Twilight” when I finally saw the film.
I also found the characters unremarkable - Bella comes off as fickle dope, and Edward as a two-bit knock-off of Angel.
I always meant to check if Whedon wrote that, I can’t believe he did.
Wasn’t there a pitched story line, which fortunately never saw the light of day, for Firefly that hinged on the gang rape of one of the characters? If I remember correctly, it was Whedon’s idea.
He seems to be a great guy, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be tone deaf on some issues, or just plain dumb on some issues.
Awesome!!! My 10 year old wants to read the Twilight series. I think I’m gonna give her the Buffy series instead 
Oh, found an interesting piece about the fundies and conservatives fear of Buffy
http://www.stiftungleostrauss.com/bunker.php?itemid=137
Whedon, I think, is tone deaf in some ways and very tuned in in others, which leaves him in a position to push buttons for the purposes of his melodrama that perhaps should be left unpushed, based on the mainstream aesthetic preferences of his target audience.
I, personally, never had a problem with Buffy/Spike. It was always incredibly fucked up and the series never pretended it was anything but incredibly fucked up. And Spike didn’t go get his soul back because he was remorseful. If you listen to the dialogue, he went to go get back whatever it was he felt he lost that kept him from being a big bad Slayer-eating monster and instead made him sit around and get alternately boinked and thumped by Buffy. He wasn’t remorseful, he wanted revenge. Because he’s a horrible soulless sociopathic monster who doesn’t really care about Buffy, only about his own needs.
What they gave him, because he was too busy being self-involved to phrase his wish more carefully, was his soul back. Because he was making deals with demons, and they’re horrible soulless monsters, too.
To be fair re: Buffy, ALL sex in the Joss Whedon universe is seriously messed up and any hint of real relationship happiness and contentment is always punished almost immediately. I mean, sex resulted in Angel losing his soul, and everything that follows stays in that vein (no pun intended).
if nothing else, Book 4 is pretty clear on how items 1 through 4 are actually just a way to get yourself a house in the suburbs near your in-laws, after which your husband will fade gradually into a kind of unnoticed piece of furniture while you do the important work of raising children and trying to be as martyring as possible at all times.
...wow. I didn’t think it could get more soul-killingly miserable than the stalker stuff, but this just about does it.
To be fair re: Buffy, ALL sex in the Joss Whedon universe is seriously messed up and any hint of real relationship happiness and contentment is always punished almost immediately.
This holds true across all Whedon projects. I’ve honestly given up on the man. Guaranteed doom for any happy couple is just as boring and predictable as a guaranteed happy ending, and considerably less fun. Caring for his characters, brilliant and true and engaging as they are, is like trusting the helpful, competent authority figure in a Dan Brown novel.
But that’s all beside the point. My complaint isn’t about the Spike/Buffy relationship (horrible and painful and thoroughly UNentertaining to watch as it was), but about the fans who immediately jumped up to defend Spike and blame Buffy the attempted rape.
I’ve always been really disappointed to hear this said. Firstly, she does fight him off successfully, an ability that she has over most victims of sexual assault and rape, and secondly, why exactly should she not have trouble doing so? Lest we forget, Spike is set up as a seriousky hard vampire who has killed not one but two previous slayers. And Buffy should somehow be able to knock him sideways without breaking a sweat?
Without breaking a sweat, no. Without pleading “spike please I’m hurt please”? Yeah.
That was totally out of buffy’s character, and is in no way an implication of other women who are raped who aren’t, you know, fictional vampire slayers with super-human strength. It was a cheap writer’s trick to get Spike ensouled. There were much better ways to that plot development than this completely unbelievable attempted rape.
And Spike didn’t go get his soul back because he was remorseful. If you listen to the dialogue, he went to go get back whatever it was he felt he lost that kept him from being a big bad Slayer-eating monster and instead made him sit around and get alternately boinked and thumped by Buffy. He wasn’t remorseful, he wanted revenge. Because he’s a horrible soulless sociopathic monster who doesn’t really care about Buffy, only about his own needs.
What they gave him, because he was too busy being self-involved to phrase his wish more carefully, was his soul back. Because he was making deals with demons, and they’re horrible soulless monsters, too.
I used to suspect that was the case, but then I saw an interview with Whedon where he said that no, Spike was planning on getting his soul back all along. I think you have the more interesting take, and I also thought that this is what was implied in the script. But then after hearing Whedon I figured, well, I guess not.
Never heard about the proposed gang-rape scene in Firefly, though I can definitely see it because of those mutants (i forgot what they call them) who basically rape their captives (male and female) to death.
That would have been way over the line though. I don’t know about Whedon, you know he did some great stuff. There is no doubt that the opening scene of the very first Buffy episode where Darla as a young high school student walks into an empty high school building at night with a horny high school guy who thinks he’s going to get it and then starts that gross “oh you can’t wait for it huh?” that really made me enjoy Darla’s killing him a moment later….anyway, there is no doubt that this turned our culture on its head. Whedon said, girl and monster walk into dark alley, girl walks out. There is something beautiful in that simplicity. Haven’t we all gotten to the point we felt like screaming at the latest “watch the girl be tortured to death” movie or tv episode? That in itself was just fucking great and I loved it and the series held that.
But he does have a fixation on ruining every possibly happy couple and sex has terrible consequences in his world. Even the buffy/spike thing, a lot of people thought that was so fucked up. Why? She was having dirty fucking sex and getting off on it. Big deal. Who hasn’t. No flowers, no lovemaking, no nothing other than hot, no holds barred, maybe even kinky fucking. Why did she have to feel dirty about that? Why did that have to be wrong? Because Spike “loved” her and she was using him? I guess this is a good time to listen to Fiona apple’s “Criminal”.
But, that’s just me.
Seraph, OH IT DOES.
You know that (SPOILERS?) Bella promises her baby in marriage to her werewolf buddy when said child is born, don’t you? Honestly, I should be genuinely horrified about the Twilight series, but it just gets so transparently bad so fast that for me it crosses straight into “hilarious”. Disturbing in its sociocultural implications, but also. Hilarious.
But he does have a fixation on ruining every possibly happy couple and sex has terrible consequences in his world.
Well, this is also a typical trope of teen horror/slasher flicks.
because of those mutants (i forgot what they call them) who basically rape their captives (male and female) to death.
Reavers.
Even the buffy/spike thing, a lot of people thought that was so fucked up. Why? She was having dirty fucking sex and getting off on it. Big deal. Who hasn’t. No flowers, no lovemaking, no nothing other than hot, no holds barred, maybe even kinky fucking. Why did she have to feel dirty about that? Why did that have to be wrong?
Um…my answers?
1) Because Spike is a murderous sociopath, extraordinary as such even among a species of murderous sociopaths. A healthy relationship of any kind between him and anything human - even casual sex - is pretty much impossible, as proven by:
2) Spike was not satisfied with a fuckbuddy relationship. He began stalked and emotionally manipulated Buffy with the goal of breaking down her ego, making her dependent on him, and separating her from her friends. This often worked to one degree or another (assisted by the fact that her friends and sister showed little patience with her difficulties in re-adjusting to being alive), but every so often Buffy would snap back and respond with
3) Physical violence. And even when she wasn’t beating on him, Buffy held Spike in the utmost contempt for being…I believe she put it…“an evil, murderous thing”. Which he was, at the time. Of course, that disgust tended to overflow onto herself for fucking that evil, murderous thing on a regular basis.
4) The relationship wasn’t begun out of a simple search for sex on Buffy’s part. As she sang in “Once More, With Feeling”, she was looking for something to make her feel again after her return from Heaven. In other words, the whole relationship is a symptom of PTSD. I don’t begrudge anyone taking what comfort they can, but that’s a treacherous foundation for a relationship, even a casual one…especially if the other party is already infatuated or even obsessed with you.
As for this?
Because Spike “loved” her and she was using him?
I never had a whole lot of sympathy for him in this regard - see above - but yes, I heard plenty of fangirls voicing this very sentiment, using almost these exact words.
Tyro, in slasher flicks sex turns women into doomed victims, and in Whedonworld sex either turns men evil or just leads to relationships, which make people unhappy and in Whedon’s mind apparently have a 50% mortality rate. I think Riley is the only person who Buffy had sex with who didn’t turn evil. (He just turned annoying. Whine more, Riley!) So it is an interesting transference of the trope; it’s just a really annoying one when you know that someone from every couple is going to wind up dead. I always hate it when Whedon just rocks falls all over his characters, though.
He <strike>began</strike> stalked and emotionally
Of course. Dammit.
You know that (SPOILERS?) Bella promises her baby in marriage to her werewolf buddy when said child is born, don’t you?
I’d heard that. I’d also heard that was one of the things that made even most Twilight fans disown that particular book.
According to this guy, that’s just Meyer’s Mormonism showing through. Something about choosing your spouse in the pre-existence.
Personally, I can’t believe I’m seeing Facebook ads that read, “Can’t wait for the next Twilight movie? Check out True Blood.”
Also, I can’t help but think about Girl Genius every time I read a Twilight post, because they also do the “protagonist smells good to monsters” thing, except they turn it on its head in a delightful way. (SPOILER: Turns out she smells good to them, because she smells like their *leader*.)
Okay…that was scattered. Yay for Monday brainfarts!
Seraph some interesting points but, meh, i don’t know, maybe because for years we never really saw spike kill anyone and he was more comic relief, I didn’t view him that way. And I don’t really remember him becoming stalkerish after they slept together. I remember Buffy seeking him out a few times though. But maybe he did.
I always viewed the relationship as Buffy finally getting some hot sex. She had sex with Angel one time, and then that kind of boring relationship with Riley. Now she was having some kinky sex and actually coming, and she hated herself for it and projected that out onto Spike. All those times she tells Spike that he disgusts her, I thought it was pretty obvious that was self-disgust. And I didn’t really see the need for it.
To be fair re: Buffy, ALL sex in the Joss Whedon universe is seriously messed up and any hint of real relationship happiness and contentment is always punished almost immediately.
Simon and Kaylee at the very end of Serenity.
This is an opportune time to recommend a fantastic essay from a few months back by Jenny Turner, in which she takes down the Twilight series hard (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n06/turn03_.html). She does a great job articulating certain things that haven’t been said clearly enough about lots of pop culture. There’s something enervating and imagination-strangling about allegedly daring work with an exciting surface layer that’s actually rooted in shallow, conventional ideas.
Also ... that remix was pretty awesome.
Seraph some interesting points but, meh, i don’t know, maybe because for years we never really saw spike kill anyone and he was more comic relief,
Which is an absolute crime, by the way. Spike was several different kinds of badass for his first few seasons, then they stripped it all out and left him a shell of himself so that people would forget he was - as Buffy pointed out - “A serial killer in prison” and accept him as a true member of the Scoobies.
There’s a reason this page at Tvtropes was originally called “Spikeification”.
Simon and Kaylee at the very end of Serenity.
Only because there was no sequel. If there had been, it would have opened on their hot, sweet romance - the one we rooted for throughout the series and the movie - gone sour for some reason. Or if all was still well, some outside force would have separated them. I guarantee it. Romantic misery is to Joss Whedon what feet are to Quentin Tarantino.
Oh man that was awesome, thanks for posting this. I haven’t seen Twilight or read the books, mostly because I don’t want to support such a creepy, unfeminist piece of shit. It honestly scares me that the series is so popular with teenage girls. This video was wonderfully edited, and just these clips are enough to reassure me that I made the right choice in staying far away from Twilight.
If girls want to read good fantasy with elements of feminism and egalitarian relationships, Tamora Pierce’s Tortall series are a good place to start. I loved reading them, and the author isn’t afraid to include sexuality (of a responsible, empowered kind) in her works as well as action, a compelling magical world, and plenty of strong female characters.
Twilight ruined a potential new friendship.
really.
you see, i met this girl (remet, actually - i had met her when she was a teenager, because i gamed with her brother and she came to game once, then i met her again 5 years later right after she turned 21) and my boyfriend introduced with the line “and you guys both like to read”. so we immediately started suggesting books. she suggested Twilight to me, a book that i had never even heard of before then.
so i get the books (all 4 of them) and i read them. now, i am addicted to read - the only books that i have started and not finished are the first Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings - so i *had* to finish once i started. but i ended up paying the library for two of them because i kept throwing them (something i have NEVER done before, i treat books WELL).
and when i see her again, she asks me about the books. at first i was all “i read them, ok” and trying to not really talk about them ... i had a looooooooooooooong screed i had written for my LJ taking them apart, but i found better essays and never posted mine. but she kept pushing, really wanting to know what i thought. (and also, she had just found out she was pregnant and was getting eight tons of hell, her ex-boyfriend was trying to force her to marry him and her ex-before him was trying to get her back and make her get an abortion and *his* parents were trying to make her have the baby but give it to them in adoption and…. and really, i thought she needed to hear about feminism. i didn’t know that she was very anti-feminism because she has totally bought the “feminism = man-hating” rhetoric…)
so i finally start listing all the things *wrong*, starting with *GLITTER!?!?* and *clumsy =/= cute* and *new girl is bcuz she is new* and progressing to *stalking =/= love* and *drinking blood as a metaphor for rape* and etc.
at first, on the little things like glitter, she was amused and joined me in mocking the stupidity. but every time i got into a real issue, she got *ANGRY*. the first “real” issue i brought up was the creepystalker of Edward. she immediately started the “but it was because he *really* loved her and couldn’t bear to be seperated from her!* line. then the discussion moved to Jacob creepystalker and she went into the whole “soulmate” issue and how True Love makes everyone crazy and besides all women *really* want to have men fighting over her, so that women can make “good decisions” about who they get together with based on who wins the fight, and i got very lost as to what she was really trying to argue. and i just started laying out the Issues with the books - just literally listing A)Edward stalks her B) Edward repeatedly threatens her to keep her in line C) she was used as an object in various battles between different vamps (a la James attacking her to hurt the Cullens, the Itialians threatening to kill or forcebly convert her to hurt the Cullens, etc) and D) her dad pushing her to date an abusive controling ass to get her away from an abuse controling ass that dad disliked…
i mean, i had like 40 things i listed just off the top of my head.
and possible new friend was beyond furious, she actually *hated* me for saying all this (and possible for seeing all this), and for being a feminist, and she said some aweful shit about me on her MySpace.
it caused copious amounts Drama. i hate Drama.
thankfully, my friends were not detered in their friendship by the shit she spouted. most of them tried to talk to her, until i asked them to stop, because they were just prolonging the drama. i don’t care if she likes me or not - but i know i don’t want to hang out with a person who really, truely believes in their bones that the things that happen in Twilight are ok, justifiable even, because it was for “Love”
(sadly? she is one of the roommates, and i have no choice about this, because she is dating the actual roommate, so i can’t kick her out…:( we just don’t talk to each other)
nbarnes, you FELL for it.
Spike said, again and again, he wanted to give the Slayer what she deserved. I said quietly after each time, “I want to give her someone who loves her who isn’t a monster. I want my soul back.” The wording was deliberately ambiguous, but the loathing in his delivery is self-loathing, not anger. He knows he’s been bad for her. He’d said it many a time… their connection was through the darkness in her, and how he could speak to that darkness. She told him before she could never actually love a monster.
And he’s “love’s bitch”. If he loves her and his soullessness keeps them apart, he has to get his soul. Everything about Spike led up to that being what he was wishing for.
Now the truly great thing was that it didn’t make her love him. He’d been too evil for the soul to change how she felt to that extent. But from that point on, he knew he wouldn’t hurt her, and he could help her team.
In a sense, Spike’s transformation can possibly apply to real life. A man who makes a bad boyfriend due to issues with substance abuse or crime or violence *might* be able to change, but he has to admit HE is the one with the problem, and he has to sincerely seek help, work hard, and not expect those he alienated to reward him for doing so.
“ALL sex in the Joss Whedon universe is seriously messed up and any hint of real relationship happiness and contentment is always punished almost immediately”.
Wash and Zoe in “Serenity”. True, Wash died in the movie, but it was A) not at all immediate and B) not in any sense a consequence of their relationship.
They had such a good and lifelike relationship. A more realistic relationship than almost all TV and movie relationships.
And after the scene in which Wash had saved the ship and Zoe grabbed him, saying, “I need this man to rip all my clothes off right away”, I turned to my wife and said, “Do you own any shirts with snaps?”
She did….
As everyone says in this thread, that was good good good video.
I…miss Buffy. Still! And it’s been years! The thought of her putting the stake in that sparkly stalker (and the entire Twilight franchise) is immensely gratifying.
I think Riley is the only person who Buffy had sex with who didn’t turn evil.
The jury’s still out on Riley…I think he’s one of the leading contenders for the identity of the masked Big Bad of the Season Eight comics.
Wonderful. Sadly necessary.