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Next entry: Fundie meltdown of the week: Michigan Huck for Veep supporters Previous entry: The American Carol Trailer

Frankie Says Submit

The Austin-American Statesman had a profile of Protestants who, unsatisfied with the overly pro-woman ways of mainstream Protestantism* have decided to embrace the Catholic view of birth control.  That is, to not use it, because if women’s lives aren’t fraught with fear of getting pregnant, then they are getting away with something.**  It’s an okay story—-it’s good to see the mainstream media give some coverage to how anti-woman evangelicals are turning on birth control—-but they could have gone a step further and explained that for the activist branch of the religious right, female submission is seen as something that the law should mandate for all women, regardless of religion, by banning birth control. 

What I liked about it was that it’s impossible for the wankers who push “natural family planning” (which can only work if a woman is fully empowered to say no during her fertile times, which is unlikely in the male dominated marriages that lead to NFP use for religious reasons) to hide how this is all about their views of women and women’s proper place—-prone before their husbands, both in the physical and symbolic sense.

Taylor, a fresh-faced 28-year-old who would blend in easily with South Austin bohemians, ruled out taking birth control pills after reading a book that claimed the pill could, in some cases, make the uterus uninhabitable after conception occurred. She viewed that as abortion, which she opposes.

“I just wasn’t willing to risk it,” she said.


Emphasis mine, to show how the whole “the pill is an abortion” thing is rationalization.  If she wanted to know the truth, she could have contacted an actual doctor and found that, if keeping fertilized eggs from dying was her concern, she needs to be on the pill.  Because while there’s a remote possibility of shedding a fertilized egg on the pill, it’s all but inevitable that you’ll be shedding a few if you don’t use anything at all.  Because the pill works by stopping ovulation, meaning you don’t have eggs to fertilize.  But not using anything means that your body is fertilizing and rejecting eggs on a regular basis, before one takes. 

But it’s more than that.  You don’t want to use the pill, so your only other method is NFP?  What about condoms?  Ummmmmm…... Gosh, how to say this while concealing that this is about making your man your lord and master?

Before getting married, she took the pill to regulate her menstrual cycle, but she said it had negative side effects. Other forms of birth control such as condoms didn’t appeal to her.

You fudge a little and pretend your husband isn’t involved is how.  Or that your decision to go off the pill when you got married was done sans pressure from the very same guy who refuses to wear a condom. Oops, did I say “refuse”?  Did I suggest, god forbid, that men take a shred of responsibility for how they treat women?

I highlighted the word “uninhabitable”, because I think that’s the thinking that’s the key.  Uninhabitable for a fertilized egg?  Or for the sperm?  I think it’s more the latter, and everything else is rationalization. 

All that Bible talk about how women are supposed to look on their husbands like men do on to god isn’t just for fun.  That means you have to worship your husband, and be completely pliable to his will.  It means that women’s place is to glorify men.  That means a lot of things—-from pillow-fluffing to ego-fluffing. But it’s weird, if you think about it, for man-centered, man-worshipping marriages to draw the line at treating sex like a game of “conquer the womb”.  If a woman is using contraception, she’s not making her uterus habitable, or more importantly, submissive and pliable.  Her body is for his enjoyment, but also so he can demonstrate his virility to himself and the community.  For a woman to interfere with that is just not done.

Luckily, the emphasis on how refusal to use contraception is about conquering women and making them submit is all over the article.

With a pill, he said, people are in control. But “what does it mean to submit your physical bodies to God’s sovereign care? ... God has given us power and freedom to exercise that decision. We can say, ‘God, we’re going to respect the rhythms you have given us.’ “

I love how suddenly it’s about making “people” submit to “god”.  Uh-huh.  Except that it’s women who do the submitting, and their bodies that are used for this purpose of glorifying

their husband’s cock power

god.  What do men have to do to submit?  Let’s not look at that too closely, just like we don’t want to look at how it just so happened that the wedding night was the night one woman decided she didn’t need to control her cycle any more.

The weird thing is that if you want children, I don’t see why not just go off the pill and try.  Oh wait.  I do see the problem with that—-if a woman gets pregnant while trying to get pregnant, her pregnancy is an active choice of hers, not a symbol of her mind-and-body submission to her husband.

*Which still fall far short of what I’d like to see.
**Being female without routine punishment.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 03:32 PM • (46) Comments

As for women who find hormonal birth control has undesirable side effects (which it sometimes can, such as nausea), I suggest the diaphragm as a reliable alternative. Condoms can break (and even if they don’t, she’ll probably worry about it too much to enjoy herself), and can reduce pleasure for women as well as men.

Comment #1: anna  on  08/16  at  04:46 PM

For these religious wingnuts sex is not about reciprocity.  Sex is something that men do and women submit to. This of course falls in line with the idea that women are meant to be submissive to men in all aspects of life.  Western men achieve masculinity by oppressing women, conquering every aspect of our being in the same way that young hunters are deemed men when they make their first kill. To fight against this is to be considered unwoman.  When I read posts like this I cannot help but think of the handmaids tale.  Each day we move closer to this being a reality rather than a work of fiction.

Comment #2: Renee  on  08/16  at  04:49 PM

As for women who find hormonal birth control has undesirable side effects (which it sometimes can, such as nausea), I suggest the diaphragm as a reliable alternative. Condoms can break (and even if they don’t, she’ll probably worry about it too much to enjoy herself), and can reduce pleasure for women as well as men.

I’m a woman who’s chosen to forgo hormonal birth control, partially due to the side effects I experienced when I was on it, and I have to say, I wouldn’t worry about our awareness of other methods.  Because, you know, the internet exists, as do books like Our Bodies, Ourselves, and of course if you are so clueless that you don’t know where to even begin, you can always consult your doctor (who would have to fit you for a diaphragm, anyway).

I also have to say that I’ve relied solely on condoms for around 7 years now and have never had a condom break.  I’ve also never worried overmuch that such a thing would happen, because that’s what the morning after pill is for (also going years upon years without it happening tends to lessen one’s worries). 

As for sensitivity issues, that’s for individual couples to decide.  I’ve never noticed an obvious lack of sensitivity with condom use.  It’s also funny that, for every guy who’s whined about condoms, when I gave my answer of, “well lets get tested for the more worrisome STD’s, and then I’ll go look into the patch or the nuvaring, and in a few months maybe we can start phasing out the condoms,” there has been a noticeable lack of enthusiasm.  What they really seem to be whining about is how they want to be in CONTROL, dammit!  RIGHT NOW!  With their PENIS!  Those same guys’ favorite tactic in the “What would we do if I got pregnant?” talk is to inform me that I would most certainly be having an abortion, which they regrettably would not be able to pay for. 

Somehow, I’m left with the impression that it’s not really about the sensitivity.

Comment #3: The Opoponax  on  08/16  at  05:10 PM

“But “what does it mean to submit your physical bodies to God’s sovereign care? ... God has given us power and freedom to exercise that decision. We can say, ‘God, we’re going to respect the rhythms you have given us.’ ”

Of course, there’s the whole “God gave you a brain, so you’re disrespecting Him by not using it” counter-argument, but somehow they always manage to ignore that bit.

Comment #4: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/16  at  06:57 PM

This part is weird…

“The only spiritual objection I have to birth control is that for me, using hormonal birth control indicates that I don’t really trust God with every area of my life,” she wrote in an e-mail. “It is an effort on my part to control something that I really believe God can be trusted with.”

But does she feel the same way about wearing a seatbelt, or, for that matter, looking both ways before crossing the street?  (That these things would indicate a lack of trust in God?)  Presumably not….  So she wants to trust God not with EVERY area of her life but with THIS area of her life in particular.

Comment #5: liz  on  08/16  at  07:49 PM

I guess I wanted to add that… in theory   this method might not be disempowering, if you followed the method perfectly, i.e. never had sex at the times when you are most likely to get pregnant…. even if your husband wanted you to.  (In fact… I wonder if there are some women who, maybe subconsciously, appreciate the “excuse” to refuse sex?  I know that’s a sad suggestion but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were true.)  But I understand that the very real worry that the method won’t be used perfectly, and sometimes because women will submit to sex at less safe times under pressure from partners…

Comment #6: liz  on  08/16  at  07:56 PM

Opop, Dan Savage made a really great point—-you know how people are always saying the condom broke and they didn’t feel it?  It feels the same, in other words.

Condoms are more a pain because they sort of dictate the action in bed.  You get a little more flexibility without.  But creative people roll with the minor obstacle, especially if it’s the best option available. Unless, of course, they’re guys with masculinity issues.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/16  at  09:16 PM

Of course, there’s the whole “God gave you a brain, so you’re disrespecting Him by not using it” counter-argument, but somehow they always manage to ignore that bit.

That would imply that god gave women brains for thinking.  Not at all.  Brains are there so you can obey men more easily, and remember prenatal doctor appointments.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/16  at  09:18 PM

I can’t use hormonal birth control, so I’m glad that there are alternatives out there. I think articles like this, though, are a bit irresponsible, because they don’t fully disclose the reality of NFP- you most likely WILL get pregnant if you use it, you’re just delaying the pregnancy/ possibly reducing the overall number of pregnancies.  It sounds like a great match for people like the first woman- she really isn’t trying to keep from getting pregnant, she just wants to postopne it for a while, for reasons that won’t make an “oops” the end of the world if it happens.  When the article says “failure rates as low as 1%, but up to 25%”, it’s really being misleading.  The “1%” folks are so few and far between, it would be a lot more responsible to say something like, “NFP claims a failure rate of 1% if implemented perfectly, but statistics for more realistic implementation of NFP indicate up to a 25% failure rate.  By comparason, a person using no contraception has a 85% chance of becoming pregnant in a given year.  In other words, NFP is only about 10% more effective than random chance and undiagnosed infertility as a means of contraception.”  Because, really, I can see people reading the bit about the woman seeing NFP as a part of the same Earth-stewardship philosophy that makes her look for in-season produce, and thinking, “Wow!  All-natural birth control with a 1% failure rate!  Sign me up for that!”  Only, there’s a reason NFP isn’t so big outside of fundie circles…

Comment #9: Neko Onna  on  08/16  at  09:33 PM

It feels the same, in other words.

It doesn’t, though. Maybe you have to be putting a penis into a vagina to notice?

The “it feels the same” position doesn’t pass the smell test. If that’s true, condoms would be the perfect birth control, because they’re completely non-hormonal, non-perscription, effective against STD’s, and fairly cheap to boot. But people hate to use them.

The only explanation is that they don’t feel the same. And they don’t. Maybe it’s more or less noticeable for certain kinds of sex?

Comment #10: Chet  on  08/16  at  11:24 PM

I don’t like condoms, but that’s not because of the texture, so much as the SMELL.  I had latex.

Comment #11: Antigone  on  08/17  at  12:16 AM

What I always wonder about the “it feels the same” argument is whether it’s more that “it can feel the same if you put the condom on long before intercourse and let it warm up etc. etc. etc., but most people don’t do that with condoms so realistically it doesn’t feel the same.”  cause I honestly can’t tell the difference most of the time, esp if I put it on long before penetration.

Comment #12: tster  on  08/17  at  12:52 AM

“The “it feels the same” position doesn’t pass the smell test. If that’s true, condoms would be the perfect birth control, because they’re completely non-hormonal, non-perscription, effective against STD’s, and fairly cheap to boot. But people hate to use them.”

But Chet, women hate to use birth control pills and diaphragms too. I mean, what woman wouldn’t rather not spend time at the gyno getting fitted/getting her prescription updated, standing in line at the pharmacy, shelling out money, having to remember to take the pill or put in the diaphragm or make the appointment for the Norplant; deal with side effects of hormonal contraception; deal with having the insurance necessary to get regular gyn visits, etc.

Gee, it seems like women use a lot of different birth control methods that have drawbacks. None of them are fun or completely free of cost or trouble.

I wonder if you meant “But men hate to use them”, not “But people hate to use them” in your post. Could it be possible that many men might be unwilling to use a method of birth control that has any direct impact on their body or wallet, and would rather have the entire responsibility and downsides of birth control fall on their female partner? Naw - that couldn’t be true.

Comment #13: ksms  on  08/17  at  01:32 AM

Regarding the post, it seems to me that evangelical Protestants have gotten more conservative in a lot of ways over the last generation. My husband grew up in a very conservative evangelical family, the son and grandson of preachers, and when I think of my mother-in-law, a lot of these ideas would just be foreign to her.

Regarding NFP, Neko Onna, I think you have that turned around. NFP is way more effective than nothing. NFP is not the rhythm method. NFP is checking your cervical mucus and taking your temperature on a daily basis, combined with using the calendar. It’s pretty scientific when used correctly. Thus the 1 percent failure rate with perfect use. But even with the 25 percent failure rate, that means just 25 percent of women using it get pregnant. Compared to 85 percent with nothing. Basically, NFP is a little worse than condoms with no back up and about the same as the sponge.

That said, it’s obviously not for everyone. Personally, I get pretty horny when I’m ovulating. I have no interest in abstaining during that time and no religious reason to force myself to. I also am not someone who is interested in checking my cervical mucus on a regular basis. But other people think it’s cool and it makes them feel in touch with their bodies. A friend of mine who didn’t want to go back on the pill is using NFP in combination with condoms - condoms during her fertile period, otherwise nothing - but she’s in a position where another pregnancy would not be the end of the world.

Regarding condoms, I don’t like them because of the interruption. It’s the same reason I didn’t like using a diaphragm (that and the chronic yeast infections). So it’s not just men that don’t like them. The argument I have less patience with is when men say they wouldn’t take a male birth control pill because it might have side effects. Men can complain about condoms, as far as I’m concerned, as long as they don’t do the complaining in circumstances where their use is mandatory or highly recommended.

Comment #14: chingona  on  08/17  at  02:14 AM

So let me get this straight; you’re planning out the days when you *know* specifically you have very little chance of getting pregnant.

You plan out how to AVOID getting pregnant.

*god* set out a *rhythm* for the best time for conception and, now that we now we know what that is and can track it , you AVOID those days that GOD, the big *man* with the “plan” and apparent “control” over your life made to *bless* you with a child and that is somehow NOT taking control away from that very same god? Who made the fertile days. Those fertile days that are supposed to get you pregnant. You’re avoiding god’s get knocked up days. By using a method of BIRTH CONTROL.

I know denial is powerful but jeezus fucking christ.

If they followed their true convictions then they’d fuck like bunnies and take what god gives them.

Comment #15: UltraMagnus  on  08/17  at  03:50 AM

I don’t think it matters in the end if the birth control is the pill, condoms, NFP or whatever. I think the problem is a religious system that teaches women they have to “submit to the servant leadership of their husbands.” Get real! If you know what days your ovulating, but your husband wants to exercise his servant leadership (he’s horny), he’s just going to demand that you submit to him anyway! And I doubt he would wear a condom. My ex-husband came from a fundamentalist christain family that had these corny ideas. His sister was always pregnant, and she used NFP. Her husband was always going on about female submission, etc, and she was upset because she ended up being coerced into sex during ovulation all the time because of this asshole. And she actually believed that she was a bad wife for saying no, and she would go to hell. Personally, I thought hell was living in her house. Anyway, my ex-husband was estranged from said family when we married, but he reconciled with them eventually. All of a sudden, he’s telling me not to use birth control, hiding my b.c. pills and talking about “servant leadership.” Ha! Kiss my ass! It was a good thing that I went on the depo provera shot because he never knew my shot was due. Anyway, I dumped him soon afterward because he started to get verbally and physically abusive and tried to order me to go to his church! No way.

Comment #16: virago  on  08/17  at  05:11 AM

Real men use condoms.

Comment #17: don  on  08/17  at  06:39 AM

The religious argument has very, very big holes: If God is all powerful, and God wants you to have a child, you will, right? It doesn´t matter what you are using. Those who argue otherwise must have very weak faith or hidden agendas.

NFP, the same as withdrawal, needn´t be not bad for couples who´d rather wait a bit to have a child, but sounds to me like a lot of hassle for the effectivenes rate it has. It used to be said, where I´m from that every Spaniard is either born of NFP or born of a siesta. That was, of course, before the 70,s when sympathetic ob-gyns started to give it (at first) to every married woman who complained of painful periods….

Comment #18: Maria  on  08/17  at  09:24 AM

I started by skimming the article and saw this sentence:

You don’t want to use the pill, so your only other method is NFP?

Having missed the definition for NFP, I began to try and figure out what it stood for.  I think I came up with ‘Nearly Fuck or Pullout’.  WTF?  We all know that doesn’t work!  After I went back and read the entire article, it made more sense, but I still like my backronym better.

Comment #19: Mark B. from Austin TX  on  08/17  at  11:17 AM

I’m a middle-aged guy who’s used condoms from since when I lost my virginity as a college student back in the early 70’s.  Boy was I embarrassed the first time I bought some—condoms weren’t publicly displayed back then, but kept behind the counter, and you had to ask the pharmacist for them.  I spent about 45 minutes in the pharmacy just getting up the nerve, while my girlfriend was waiting in the car in the parking lot—she must have thought I had been mugged or had had a heart attack or something!  But I finally got up the nerve, spoke to the pharmacist, bought the condoms, and walked out of the pharmacy with the world’s biggest shit-eating grin on my face.  When I returned to the car in the parking lot, my girlfriend commented on my big shit-eating grin, gave me a huge smile and a big hug—and even better when we got back to her dorm room!  With positive reinforcement like that, what guy wouldn’t love condoms!

Comment #20: Now a fat, bald middle-aged guy  on  08/17  at  12:21 PM

what does it mean to submit your physical bodies to God’s sovereign care?

I will never understand the viewpoint that by not dealing in some form of birth control you’re “submitting to God,” because it leads to me wondering if the anti-birth control people out there seriously believe that if the Lord Our Creator, Master of all He Surveys and Champion Skeeball Legend really wanted you to have a baby, He could easily be completely and totally defeated by a little bit of latex or a daily pill regimen. 

Have a little faith in your God, fundies!  If He’s so freaking powerful, then He should be able to break that condom juuuuust fine.

Comment #21: Jennifer  on  08/17  at  12:53 PM

The “it feels the same” position doesn’t pass the smell test. If that’s true, condoms would be the perfect birth control, because they’re completely non-hormonal, non-perscription, effective against STD’s, and fairly cheap to boot. But people hate to use them.
The only explanation is that they don’t feel the same. And they don’t.

Condoms are the perfect birth control.  Cheap, widely available over the counter, easy to obtain at the last minute, go into effect right away, easy to use, no major side effects, and they prevent a lot of STD’s. 

Maybe it feels exactly the same, maybe it doesn’t, but it certainly seems to be close enough enough to the point where I’ve so far never met a man who preferred not to have sex than to have sex with a condom. 

It’s also hilarious that men who insist that condoms are bad because using them doesn’t feel quite as good as not using them, but said men think that the best option is to expect that women will use some other form of birth control that is drastically less ideal than condoms, except that only the woman has to deal with any of the bad points.

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  08/17  at  01:20 PM

Aside from the obvious objections others have raised (hypocrisy of highly selective “trusting God,” and others), these people are close to insane.  There’s not a single major problem in the world that I can think of that’s not related to overpopulation.  If overpopulation isn’t the principal cause of a given problem, it at least exacerbates it.  Global warming, energy crisis, fresh water crisis, deforestation, overfishing and other trashing of the oceans, pollution of all kinds, border wars, religious wars, famine, drought, high cost of food, low price for labor (especially unskilled), you name it:  having too many people is at least a contributing factor.

Comment #23: MTS  on  08/17  at  01:30 PM

virago, I find that fascinating. Not the abusive part, but that they were doing natural family planning. I am assuming this was some years ago, given that I’m allowing time for your ex to get religion and you to get divorced. As I said in my first post, my husband also is from a very conservative Christian family. Back when we first started dating, I kind of lumped all Christians in together, being from a secular Jewish family and all. I remember asking him if his parents used birth control and he looked at me like I was crazy. “Of course they do,” he said. “We’re not Catholic.” It seemed that in his parents’ generation, even though they are very anti-premarital sex and anti-abortion, they didn’t think there was anything wrong with married people using contraception or with women working, either. His mother always worked and told me how eager she was to get back to work after each of her kids. Now, it seems there is a lot more pressure to stay home and homeschool and also not to use birth control. At the same time, in other ways, they are more mainstream. Like, his parents grew up with no movies or secular music. Now, most conservative Christiains can partake of both. Very confusing. Is it that more exposure to secular culture provokes a desire to distinguish yourself even more from secular culture, to prove you aren’t “corrupted”? I’m not really clear on what is driving this, anthropologically speaking.

Comment #24: chingona  on  08/17  at  01:44 PM

I call bullshit on the 1% failure rate for NFP.

But even if it were true, it’s still bullshit, b/c it’s just a lame form of abstinence.

NFP is not the rhythm method. NFP is checking your cervical mucus and taking your temperature on a daily basis, combined with using the calendar.

Uhhh…that would be known as the Rhythm Method.  As in you pay attention to your body’s rhythms and avoid fertile times.  Using a thermometer just means you can have shorter abstinent times b/c you’re a little more sure of when ovulation occured.  It’s the same method—skip sex if it’s likely you’ll get pregnant.

You note how your cervical mucus gets thicker and more copious at your fertile times?  That’s when most women feel horniest—but NO!  You can’t have sex then!  You want it!  Can’t be having sex if you want it, unless you want to have a BAYBEE, too!  So suffer if you don’t want to submit to GAWD’S plan. 

You want to have sex and no baby?  Well, if you use NFP, you’re using the holiest of birth control, especially since it’s least likely to work!

It’s just such a basic disconnect for me—if you are considering whether or not children are going to be involved (and really, what woman doesn’t think about whether or not she’ll end up pregnant) you practice birth control.  Even if that means you aren’t using any method—>those crazy Duggars practice birth control b/c they want to have as many as possible.  Michelle Duggar stops breastfeeding at 6 months in order to get her fertility back quickly—>that’s birth control b/c she’s controlling her fertility to max out the number of offspring. 

But her method is somehow holier than the Mirena I have in me right now?  Yeah, right, that’s the god I want to worship.

Comment #25: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/17  at  02:28 PM

Caren, rhythm method is traditionally understood at using just the calendar. That’s the distinction I was making. I hope you read the rest of my post and understand I am not promoting natural family planning. It’s just that when people don’t describe it correctly (as Neko Onna did not), it undermines any criticism of it.

Comment #27: chingona  on  08/17  at  03:45 PM

Like, his parents grew up with no movies or secular music. Now, most conservative Christiains can partake of both.

In my experience, conservative Christians who are likely to be anti-contraception and pro-homeschooling are still likely to be against secular pop culture, or at least deeply suspicious of it.  If anything has changed, I think it’s the fact that the Christian Right Approved pop culture sector has grown significantly, and has even made forays into secular pop culture.  So you can like secular music, but only if it’s Creed.  You can see movies, but they have to be Passion of the Christ or The Chronicles of Narnia.  Your kid can watch Saturday morning cartoons, but only if it’s Veggie Tales.

Comment #28: The Opoponax  on  08/17  at  03:49 PM

I would just like to add that I am someone who uses NFP for completely non-religious reasons and likes it.  Actually, what I use is considered Fertility Awareness Method (FAM) because I track my temp and cervical mucus to know when we can go totally without a method but during fertile times we use a barrier method and if there is a mishap of some sort, I have Plan B on hand.  Natural Family Planning (NFP) means that you must abstain during fertile periods and reject all other interventions, usually for religious reasons.  I started out as a condom user and then found out about FAM and decided that a little temp-taking was a small price to pay for at least 2 weeks a month of totally natural sex (I don’t hate condoms, but I personally find that it is a lot better without).

That said, it is not quite as effective as other methods and there is a lot of temptation to push the boundaries of your fertile periods.  I would only reccommend it for people who don’t think that a pregnancy would be a TOTAL CRISIS.  That is, someone open to the possibility of a baby or an abortion.  It is better for someone who is delaying or spacing their pregnancies. 

In fact, I have recently decided to go back to school next year, so my husband and I have moved from the “we could handle an oops” category to the “absolutely not the right time” category, so I will be giving the pill another try at the end of my current cycle (hopefully this time it does not totally wipe out my ability to become aroused like it did the last time I was on it. If so I might try an IUD until I finish grad school).  I am sure I will be using FAM again at different points in my life bacause I think it really is good for certain people in certain situations and I have liked it and it has worked.

It is certainly not for everybody, but you also don’t have to be a fundamentalist to benefit from it.

Comment #29: GumbyAnne  on  08/17  at  05:44 PM

GumbyAnne, I love, love, love my IUD. I would definitely recommend looking into it. I don’t know if you have any kids yet, though. From reading on message boards before I got mine, it seems that the people who had had problems with them were those that had never been pregnant, though apparently the majority of women with no kids can still use them just fine. They have the non-hormonal one, too, if you’ve had problems on the Pill.

Comment #30: chingona  on  08/17  at  05:59 PM

I’d consider using Fertility Awareness if I were in a place in my life where an “oops” wouldn’t be an absolute disaster.  Though I have to say that, for me, a little latex is way less invasive a feature of my contraceptive life than having to take my temperature at the asscrack of dawn every morning and chart/interpret pre-coffee, with the threat of pregnancy over my head if I make a mistake.

I have to say, though, that everyone I know who relied solely on “the rhythm method” (NOT Fertility Awareness!) has ended up pregnant within a year of bragging to me about their totally awesome foolproof method of birth control.

Comment #31: The Opoponax  on  08/17  at  06:35 PM

Caren, rhythm method is traditionally understood at using just the calendar.

  NFP likes to *say* it’s not the rhythm method b/c it uses thermometers, etc.  It is the same thing, though…you don’t have sex during fertile periods, and those fertile periods are on a rhythm.  Maybe it’s just the former Catholic in me, but relying on nothing but timing just seems stupid unless you don’t really care whether or not you get pregnant.

FAM is basically the same thing, except that you do use real birth control.  Personally, I don’t like condoms either, so if that had ever been my main form of BC I might have investigated it, but I was always far more concerned with failure rates and getting the best rate out there.

That said, for some women who have bad reactions to hormones as well as latex allergies, etc.  fertility monitoring might be a decent option.

It’s just not a ‘holier’ option, no matter what the celibate men in red beanies try to claim.

—————
GumbyAnne—Mirena is a good thing in general, but if the Pill affects your moods or otherwise bothers you, Mirena may cause the same problems, but a bit weaker.  Mirena doesn’t kill my sex drive like the Pill used to, but I did notice mood shifts when I started using it.  Periods are random (as in not every month) and much lighter than without. 

It’s failure rate is actually lower than sterilization’s, which I find bizarre, and it’s reversible.  You don’t really have to think about it at all, not like a daily pill or weekly patch.  If you were able to use the Pill, Mirena should be fine.

My OB doesn’t recommend it unless you’ve had a child, but I think that’s just for ease of implantation, not for any medical contraindications.

Comment #32: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/17  at  06:38 PM

I have to give a shout out to the lovely Essure.  Permanent sterilization, no cutting (just sticking a little spring up each of your fallopian tubes, through the cervix.)  Doesn’t hurt much, takes a fifteen minute outpatient procedure, and your insurance covers it completely.  Permanent sterilization is of course not for everybody, but I have never wanted to have children and a life completely free from fear is well worth it.  I’m off the pill after almost twelve years.  It’s a billion times easier than a tubal, and quite a bit easier than a vasectomy.

Comment #33: Ugly in Pink  on  08/17  at  08:26 PM

“NFP likes to *say* it’s not the rhythm method b/c it uses thermometers, etc.  It is the same thing, though…you don’t have sex during fertile periods, and those fertile periods are on a rhythm.”

But it actually is different because you are using your body’s signals to evaluate each cycle individually.  It might seem like a small difference but IN PRACTICE it is what makes one (NFP) vastly more effective than the other (rhythm)  Both of them have you abstaining for about a week every month, but it makes a big difference to be sure you pick the right week.

Calendar method alone figures that since the average woman ovulates 14 days before her period, she should take her normal cycle length, subtract 14 days, assume that is when she will ovulate and abstain about 4 days before and 3 days after.  That might work for some people, assuming that they are very average and their cycles very regular from month to month.  It fails a lot because most women are not that regular.

Because I am sure you are all deeply interested in me (ha), I will use myself as an example:

My cycles are usually about 32 days and I learned from charting my temperatures that I ovulate consistently 10 days before my period.  If I were using the old fashioned rhythm method I would assume a 14 day post-ovulatory phase and calculate that I need to abstain on days 14-21.  Too bad that I ACTUALLY ovulate on day 22 (give or take.  you also monitor cervical fluid and cervical position to make sure you are not ahead of or behind your normal pattern and adjust accordingly).  If I were practicing old fashioned rhythm we would be having our much-anticipated return to regular sex on the VERY DAY that I am most fertile.  We would probably do it twice, in fact.  That is not what you do when you are avoiding pregnancy, that is what you do when you are TRYING to conceive.

For me, rhythm method would not only be unhelpful, my odds would be even worse than just leaving it to chance and having sex when we feel like it.  The charting that makes NFP work is not a part of the “rhythm method” at all.  They are really not the same when translated into the real world.

Comment #34: GumbyAnne  on  08/18  at  01:28 AM

What GumbyAnne said.  I’m planning to do FAM (with condoms during the fertile period), because it is every bit as effective as condoms all the time, and I am a woman who does not like the feel of condoms.  They aren’t horrible, but they are, well, rubbery. 

And for me, the rhythm method wouldn’t be great, either, because my luteal phase is twelve days, and sometimes my cycles are as long as 37 days (usually 29-31), which would screw up any rhythm regimen.

Comment #35: Ismone  on  08/18  at  11:41 AM

I’m a woman and I don’t like the way condoms feel. I’m willing to bet there are more men out there who are frustrated by the lack of male birth control options than you think. Or maybe I’m just being optimistic.

Comment #36: Entomologista  on  08/18  at  11:42 AM

But Chet, women hate to use birth control pills and diaphragms too.

Sure. Diaphragms are (I assume) uncomfortable and have the same “interrupting the action” issue condoms have, and many women react negatively to hormonal birth control. And many women don’t, also. If they can’t use, or don’t want to use, pills or diaphragms, there’s still a dozen other options on a complete range of reversibility and transparency.

Gee, it seems like women use a lot of different birth control methods that have drawbacks. None of them are fun or completely free of cost or trouble.

So why the resistance to recognizing the drawbacks of condoms? Why do condoms have to be the one form of birth control whose negative side-effects we pretend don’t exist?

I wonder if you meant “But men hate to use them”, not “But people hate to use them” in your post.

No, I mean “people”, because I know women who prefer other kinds of birth control to condoms. (In general, you can assume that I meant precisely what I said. Just a heads-up.) But even if it was just men who didn’t like to use them, so what? It’s a form of male birth control, after all, and shouldn’t the drawbacks of that form to men be on the table? Why the need for the arrogant dismissal of the issues men and women experience with condoms?

Are only women supposed to have birth control options that meet their needs?

Could it be possible that many men might be unwilling to use a method of birth control that has any direct impact on their body or wallet, and would rather have the entire responsibility and downsides of birth control fall on their female partner?

Could it be that men only have three birth control options, each with game-breaking problems, while women have dozens? Could it be that the very idea of effective male birth control is often ridiculed by supposed sex-positive feminists, insultingly dismissing the very idea that men would want to take control of their fertility?

Naw, can’t be.

Comment #37: Chet  on  08/18  at  12:16 PM

As a woman, I have used condoms as my sole method of birth control for the last 27 years.  No babies.  In fact, the only times pregnancy was a possibility was when I was using either no method or a non-hormonal method other than condoms.  (The Pill turned me into the Wicked Witch of the West’s evil older sister.) 

As far as feel, well - I must have a really insensitive vagina because I can’t tell the difference (unless we’re using a condom like Rough Riders [“Ribbed for her pleasure!”] or Kiss of Mint [tingly!], or old-fashioned Trojans [not unlike a surgical glove]).  We use the ultra-thin condoms (Japan makes several nice brands) and have never had one break.  In 27 YEARS.  The husband actually prefers using condoms because *he* is very sensitive and the condom allows him to last long enough for me to orgasm.  An added plus - condoms make the whole thing much tidier - little to no wet spot to have to sleep in, etc.

As an additional bit of weirdness (at least to some people), for my husband and I, putting on the condom has become just a normal part of our routine.  It’s not an interruption for us - the sound of the package opening has become very erotic for me (it’s amazing what positive reinforcement can do!), and he enjoys me putting the condom on him (I can be very creative!).

So unless the condom is really uncomfortable because it doesn’t fit right (they do sell them in sizes - Slims for those gents who are slimmer than average and Magnums for the more generously-endowed guy), you have a latex allergy, or a spermicide allergy (a lot of people react badly to non-oxynol 9),  I find the “well, they *interrupt* the flow,” or “we lose the spontaneity” or “it doesn’t feel the same” excuses to be just that - excuses.  At least be honest and say, “I like running the risk of getting her/me pregnant.  I find it a turn-on.”

My two cents.

Comment #38: Mhorag  on  08/18  at  01:11 PM

I think it is fair to say that everyone is different and no method is going to be good for everyone.  Some have bad reactions to the pill, some don’t.  Some find using a condom varying degrees of not-as-good, some think it feels the same.  Some think taking your temperature in the mornings would be a huge hassle, some think it is a small price to pay for a method so free of side effects.

As feminists I hope we can resist dismissing eachothers feelings on a topic that is so personal and variable.

Comment #39: GumbyAnne  on  08/18  at  02:17 PM

I find the “well, they *interrupt* the flow,” or “we lose the spontaneity” or “it doesn’t feel the same” excuses to be just that - excuses.

Try, for a moment, to imagine what it would be like if I told a woman on the pill describing how she gains weight, experiences mood changes, has between-period bleeding, and has an overall decreased sex drive that she was just “making excuses.”

The simple fact is that you don’t have a penis. And you definitely don’t have my penis. I gather that condoms work great for you, and that’s fabulous. I urge you to continue using them.

They don’t work for at least two of us. Is that really something that’s so hard to accept without the insulting presumption of dishonesty?

As feminists I hope we can resist dismissing eachothers feelings on a topic that is so personal and variable.

You’d think so. Apparently there’s only one allowed position on condoms, and that’s “people who don’t want to use them probably just hate women.”

Comment #40: Chet  on  08/18  at  04:07 PM

To get back to the actual topic of the post, which is the fundy-Christian view of all birth control methods in general, I find it absolutely fascinating that when women don’t want to become pregnant, they’re supposed to “submit to God’s care.”

However, when they want to get pregnant and are experiencing difficulties for whatever reason, there’s absolutely no prohibition on IVF or other assisted reproductive technologies.  Then, after having spent tens of thousands of dollars to the fertility doctors, they get pregnant with multiples and call it a “miracle.”

That was science, folks.  God had nothing to do with it.  And yet, these people see nothing in this scenario about ‘defying God’s will’ or ‘going against God’s plan’ for them.

Comment #41: Mezosub  on  08/18  at  04:22 PM

That’s interesting you bring that up, Mezosub, because the Catholic position is that you shouldn’t use reproductive technology. And traditionally, the Protestant view is that you can, because infertility is a disease (in their view) that can be treated. But as the article pointed out, traditionally Protestants didn’t have a problem with birth control. And now some of them do have a problem. And I believe some of them are starting to object to IVF and the like. So we’ll see how that evolves.

Comment #42: chingona  on  08/18  at  05:03 PM

The obvious reference is, of course, The Meaning of Life:

That’s what being a Protestant’s all about! That’s why it’s the church for me! That’s why it’s the church for anyone who respects the individual, and the individual’s right to decide for him- or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in 1517, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, but… 400 years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas. [He sniffs.] And, Protestantism doesn’t stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.

Comment #43: pseudonymous in nc  on  08/19  at  02:58 AM

“Try, for a moment, to imagine what it would be like if I told a woman on the pill describing how she gains weight, experiences mood changes, has between-period bleeding, and has an overall decreased sex drive that she was just “making excuses.” “

Chet, all of the above can be objectively measured (even the lack of sex drive, because that usually can be measured by the lack of responses such as vaginal lubrication) and affects the quality of life of her AND her partner *outside* of the sex act.  Unfortunately, “it doesn’t feel the same” is only subjective.  I realize that.  Heck, I will openly admit that my husband also says “it doesn’t feel the same” as barebacking.  But we don’t use it as an excuse to not use condoms at all.  If it caused him pain, or made it impossible for him to orgasm, that’s one thing.  Dulling the sensation a bit?  I would think taking a little longer to orgasm would be considered a perk (my husband certainly does).  There’s certainly more sensation with a condom than a pair of jeans, but you don’t see men avoiding dry humping if the opportunity presents itself.

There was a time not so long ago when condoms really were uncomfortable and did seriously diminish the sensations for a man (and a woman) because of the thickness of the latex and the method of construction.  Modern latex condoms (especially Japanese ones) are extremely strong while being extremely thin.  Just out of curiosity once, I put a condom over three of my fingers just to see what sensations could be felt.  Pressure?  Check.  Heat?  Check.  Texture?  Check.  (Just in the interest of TMI, I masturbated with said condom-covered fingers.  I could certainly feel the changes in texture with my fingers).  Wetness?  Nope.  That was the only thing different.  Does the lack of wetness really interfere with a man’s pleasure so much he would avoid using condoms? 

My fingers may not be as sensitive as your penis, but I could certainly feel a lot through the condom.  Perhaps men have to learn to enjoy condom use in the same way women have to learn to enjoy penetrative intercourse. 

Just a thought…

Comment #44: Mhorag  on  08/19  at  01:24 PM

<<Chet on 08/18 at 03:07 PM>> Apparently there’s only one allowed position on condoms, and that’s “people who don’t want to use them probably just hate women.”>>

Gee, Chet, I’m not sure that anyone said that. I know I sure didn’t.

All birth control methods have drawbacks. Condoms are the only device that helps prevent disease transmission. They don’t have any physical side effects. Their only drawback is that they might make fucking slightly less enjoyable.

I just can’t help think that men bitching about not liking condoms is a bit, well, whiny. Disease prevention? Check. No adverse physical side effects? Check. Puts men in control of preventing unwanted pregnancy? Check. Reasonably effective? Check. Is it exactly the same as sex without a condom? Damn, no, it’s not! Why the hell should guys have to compromise on their quest for the optimal sexual experience by using a condom, when a woman can just take a pill. Then he won’t have any diminished sensation at all. Makes perfect, logical sense. Assuming, of course, that a man’s wants and needs always trump a woman’s.

Comment #45: ksms  on  08/19  at  10:27 PM

“virago, I find that fascinating. Not the abusive part, but that they were doing natural family planning. I am assuming this was some years ago, given that I’m allowing time for your ex to get religion and you to get divorced.”

Chingona, I divorced my ex ten years ago, and we were married for six years. I don’t think he just got religion because he grew up with these views. I met him when he was estranged from his family, and he reconciled with them when his father died. His dad was a real religious nut who was abusive, and I think this is why he didn’t talk to him. His mother and sister had very submissive views on women.  Anyway, the funny thing is that the church his family went to was against birth control of any kind except NFP, but this church did not seem to be part of a larger christain sect. I think this church was connected to a larger christain sect at one time, but broke away due to scriptural conflicts. That’s all I know because I tried to have as little to do with them as possible. Anyway, his sister homeschooled, thought women should stay home, and wouldn’t let the kids watch TV. All the women wore dresses, and no women pastors, etc. It was real depressing, and I think my husband felt guilty for ignoring the views he was brought up with. Unfortunately, he became just like his dad, and his sister married a man like her dad.

Comment #46: virago  on  08/20  at  05:45 PM
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